my stance for macs.

[klamps]

[b]
That sounds cool. But sounds complicated, too. I'm sure Windows will come up with some framework that works a LOT better than it used to but I don't think it will ever be as rock solid and proven as a true *nix core. And who cares, it's M$ stuff anyway.

FYI, *nix uses shared libraries just like Windows do. And they do conflict. I've encountered several problems with this. Sometimes you need to upgrade a shared library and it breaks another program.

No the interface is not open source, but how does that make apple take away from the community? That makes no sense. Anyway, Mac OS 9 you could change the interface and make all these crazy colors and shapes using Kaleidescope. That's not a big deal. Anyway, most people don't want to change the interface, they want to get their work done quickly and predictably. Changing the interface is cool, but just a toy, and anyway, you can change the interface in OS X if you really want to. Later on, Apple will make it easier, but that's just a toy.

Apple IS taking away from the community because it's using a *nix kernel, it developed a cool GUI, but they didn't release that back. Of course they don't have to, but it would've been nice. But they know that if they do that, people are going to take it, put on top of their favorite distro and **** Apple!

I'm saying where there's 2 computers with both different software AND hardware. Where the hardware on one computer is 10000000 times better, but the software is worse, it renders the hardware USELESS. Just like a 2 billion dollar scanner is useless without a driver. All that matters is software. Hardware is secondary. People think that hardware is important because that's how you build a computer with hardware. But it's not. Without software, hardware is just plastic and sand. But how about two computers, with different hardware and equal software? Then one will be much better. But there's no such thing. The software is always different when comparing Mac to Windows. And usually mac software is better. But now you can compare OS X to other *nix boxes with EQUAL software. You see, this is a very good thing. Mac software used to be its own world. Windows its own world. And *nix its own world. Now there is no more mac OS. It's just *nix and Windows. That gives Windows a much harder beast to fight and it's time for Windows to die anyway. So back to the point. The only scenario here will be a computer with both different hardware and different software. The Mac (today) has slower hardware with better software. I'll take that any day over a Quad Xeon with bad software. And the mac hardware is not even that much slower if you buy the $$$$$ one.

OK. What if you have the same software? Then the most powerfull computer will prevail right? Software won't matter here. And you can't just take any software and run on a Mac. You can't take Apache for Red Hat and run on Slackware. They're different platforms. It's true that it's Windows and *nix, but *nix has it's own branches and they rarely run the exact same software. Something is going to be different.

False. I can install Yellowdog Linux and LinuxPPC on my mac if I want. I can run XWindows (X11) something like that on here too, side by side with OS X. I'm sure there's other *nix I can install on PPC too.

That's about it. The *nix world has many, MANY variants. Many of them only available to the i386 platform.

I don't know that. What's the proof Apple hates developers? Why do they host the WWDC (World Wide Developers Conference). Cocoa is not just an interface. It means the whole development using Obj-C. To create your interface in Aqua you use another tool called Interface Builder.

The proof is on the number of developers it currently has.

Yes but it's modified very very little. In fact, it's almost not modified at all. What if I quit the Finder and all applications and just run in single user (command line) mode? It's basically an untouched FreeBSD. The interface is just applications running. These applications modify the config files in the BSD layer, which you can modify by hand also if you'd like. Which leads to where you say...

So you're saying that you take a FreeBSD program and compile under Mac OS X with no problems?

Same in OS X. It's not wizards. It's software Apple made to run the system more easily. But all the config files are there. You can open and edit using vi, or emacs, or TextEdit or whatever you want. This is not a "modified" or "unproven" "new" system. It's BSD, dude, with some changes to make it run on a G4, and some apps which create this interface, and the quartz layer for graphics. None of that stuff messes with the OS kernel in any major way.

So tell me why I should run a Mac OS X server instead of a FreeBSD server that runs on much cheaper hardware?

I don't know anything about Novell but Apple is a good candidate because the hardware is good, the software is the best (true *nix with great interface and even photoshop, yay!). And it's using STANDARDS. Standards in the OS. Standards in the hardware. Standards everywhere. And Apple is doing it open source, too, in the best way it can.

You're getting confused. A server doesn't need Photoshop. And if you want the best integration of hardware and software, there's Sun with alot more experience than Apple.

You always say that but I don't know why. I don't see that image. It just sounds like you're mad about something in the past. Apple is changing its whole company around to fix all its problems and keep what it had good. So think of Apple and developers only as far back as 1 year at the MAX. Why would you think this of apple, I'm curious.

Programmers are very busy people. They need tools to help them develop software better and faster. Apple doesn't offer that. I don't have a problem with it, because I don't write software for Macs. Even Microsoft helps developers in a variety of ways. As a programmer, I would love ways to port software to Mac. You know that. I already mentioned to you that I would like to make my program run on all platforms, but that's not an easy task. Maybe I should spend more time on the Apple Dev section and find out more of what's going on. Maybe I'll even like it. Who knows.

[solrac]

Originally posted by klamps

FYI, *nix uses shared libraries just like Windows do. And they do conflict. I've encountered several problems with this. Sometimes you need to upgrade a shared library and it breaks another program.

Well I'm no expert at that stuff, but anyway the point is that *nix is better than Windows, it's just a fact in today's industry. Of course anything can happen in the future.

Apple IS taking away from the community because it's using a *nix kernel, it developed a cool GUI, but they didn't release that back. Of course they don't have to, but it would've been nice. But they know that if they do that, people are going to take it, put on top of their favorite distro and **** Apple!

Actually it would be cool if that happened. Then people would put Aqua on Slackware, and SuSe, and RedHat, and OpenBSD, LOL, that would rock. And everyone would know that was Apple's thing. And they'd still have to go through Apple to get the newest updates to it. But for now, in the marketplace, that kind of thing is not necessary.

OK. What if you have the same software? Then the most powerfull computer will prevail right? Software won't matter here. And you can't just take any software and run on a Mac. You can't take Apache for Red Hat and run on Slackware. They're different platforms. It's true that it's Windows and *nix, but *nix has it's own branches and they rarely run the exact same software. Something is going to be different.

Sure if you have equal software then hardware is what matters, but software is always different. So it comes down to the better software. But maybe in some place they got equal software on different boxes, with equally proficient users. Then it's just a matter of hardware, but that's the easy part.

The proof is on the number of developers it currently has.

No that's only proof that Apple used to have a very unique OS that dates back to 1984 which was actually a very lame OS in the late 90s, and developers didn't really care to write code on a lame OS.

So you're saying that you take a FreeBSD program and compile under Mac OS X with no problems?

Yup. I read about some scientists who ported some analytical tools on their *nix boxes to OS X in just a few minutes. They did have to change some stuff in the source, like line endings or something, but it only took a matter of minutes, then a standard recompile. Sometimes it might take hours for something more complicated but I think it's only a matter of changing line endings or something? I'm no expert in this, but I know its VERY easy to port to Mac OS X.

So tell me why I should run a Mac OS X server instead of a FreeBSD server that runs on much cheaper hardware?

That's what Apple needs to answer to sell more Xserves. I think maybe in a company where the admins don't know the software like super experts, they may find an Xserve to be easier and less of a hassle. Then slowly the coolness of Apple will spread over the years and Apple will gain market share. They make some good hardware and software, dude. But totally... some guy can put FreeBSD on his custom built box, master it, run it all through CLI, and have it run way better than a Mac OS X Server, but only because he's a better computer user. And that's cool. It's cool to see some BSD box running beautifully. But even that guy might get an Apple just cuz he's interested and thinks it's cool to play with. Then he might find something he really likes about it and order another one. It'll take a long time, but Apple will slowly become cool as a server.

You're getting confused. A server doesn't need Photoshop. And if you want the best integration of hardware and software, there's Sun with alot more experience than Apple.

Yes but now Apple is here, and they admitted... they need to gain more customer service experience in this server market. But in terms of speed, software, hardware, tech support, they got it down. Nice competition for Sun. And I know it doesn't need Photoshop, I was just saying that it is cool that it has sooo much software. Mac OS X has more software than any *nix system now. It is also now the most widely distributed *nix system on the planet.

Programmers are very busy people. They need tools to help them develop software better and faster. Apple doesn't offer that. I don't have a problem with it, because I don't write software for Macs. Even Microsoft helps developers in a variety of ways. As a programmer, I would love ways to port software to Mac. You know that. I already mentioned to you that I would like to make my program run on all platforms, but that's not an easy task. Maybe I should spend more time on the Apple Dev section and find out more of what's going on. Maybe I'll even like it. Who knows.

But you're wrong! Apple DOES provide this now! The Obj-C libraries and interface libraries... are all very good. Developers are loving how fast and easy it is to put an application together. Apple offers a lot of support and documentation too!! As for making a program that runs on all platforms, well there's Java but that *****. But good cross-platform development is still a ways off I think. But you should check out what the Apple dev section really has. I hear there's some really good stuff going on there.

[xaqintosh]

I think this thread wins "The thread with the longest posts" award

[klamps]

Well I'm no expert at that stuff, but anyway the point is that *nix is better than Windows, it's just a fact in today's industry. Of course anything can happen in the future.

Agreed.

Actually it would be cool if that happened. Then people would put Aqua on Slackware, and SuSe, and RedHat, and OpenBSD, LOL, that would rock. And everyone would know that was Apple's thing. And they'd still have to go through Apple to get the newest updates to it. But for now, in the marketplace, that kind of thing is not necessary.

Hell yeah! That WOULD be cool, but it can't be because Apple is an egoist beyotch. And that IS necessary. What's the only thing that prevents mass acceptance of other *nix flavors? The GUI. From the end user point of view, of course.

Sure if you have equal software then hardware is what matters, but software is always different. So it comes down to the better software. But maybe in some place they got equal software on different boxes, with equally proficient users. Then it's just a matter of hardware, but that's the easy part.

See beyotch?

No that's only proof that Apple used to have a very unique OS that dates back to 1984 which was actually a very lame OS in the late 90s, and developers didn't really care to write code on a lame OS.

They don't seem to care about it now either.

Yup. I read about some scientists who ported some analytical tools on their *nix boxes to OS X in just a few minutes. They did have to change some stuff in the source, like line endings or something, but it only took a matter of minutes, then a standard recompile. Sometimes it might take hours for something more complicated but I think it's only a matter of changing line endings or something? I'm no expert in this, but I know its VERY easy to port to Mac OS X.

Why don't you try and let me know?

That's what Apple needs to answer to sell more Xserves. I think maybe in a company where the admins don't know the software like super experts, they may find an Xserve to be easier and less of a hassle. Then slowly the coolness of Apple will spread over the years and Apple will gain market share. They make some good hardware and software, dude. But totally... some guy can put FreeBSD on his custom built box, master it, run it all through CLI, and have it run way better than a Mac OS X Server, but only because he's a better computer user. And that's cool. It's cool to see some BSD box running beautifully. But even that guy might get an Apple just cuz he's interested and thinks it's cool to play with. Then he might find something he really likes about it and order another one. It'll take a long time, but Apple will slowly become cool as a server.

Admins that don't know the software they run are NOT real admins. They're just playing. Coolness will NOT win market share. Besides you can't expect the market to freeze and wait for Apple.

Yes but now Apple is here, and they admitted... they need to gain more customer service experience in this server market. But in terms of speed, software, hardware, tech support, they got it down. Nice competition for Sun. And I know it doesn't need Photoshop, I was just saying that it is cool that it has sooo much software. Mac OS X has more software than any *nix system now. It is also now the most widely distributed *nix system on the planet.

You're seriously mistaken. Mac OS X does NOT have more software than any *nix. RedHat does. If there's a program for *nix, there's a port for Red Hat. How can Mac OS X be the most distributed *nix system on the planet? You're obviously forgetting about Red Hat. It's FREE! You can login to ftp.redhat.com right now and get a copy. Can you do that with Mac OS X?

But you're wrong! Apple DOES provide this now! The Obj-C libraries and interface libraries... are all very good. Developers are loving how fast and easy it is to put an application together. Apple offers a lot of support and documentation too!! As for making a program that runs on all platforms, well there's Java but that *****. But good cross-platform development is still a ways off I think. But you should check out what the Apple dev section really has. I hear there's some really good stuff going on there.

Maybe now more people will write software for the Mac OS X. Let's see. And don't even mention Java. It runs even on my coffee mug, but what a pain in the arse.

So resuming everything:

- F-U-C-K Apple for stealing open source code
- Red Hat is the best OS in the planet
- M$ suc ks blue whale's balls
- I just wasted my whole day doing this, which shows how stupid, therefore unqualified to do this, I really am ...

[klamps]

Originally posted by Nummi_G4
wow dude. congrats on the largest post ever You are too smart for me If you talk to a peecee lover like that... their head will explode.

I still have my head in perfect condition (if you call this perfect). And I'm ready for more ! bring it on Solrac !!!

[klamps]

Originally posted by xaqintosh
I think this thread wins "The thread with the longest posts" award

OMFG !!! I actually clicked on this guy's website link. It's SOO KOO! Specially because he talks about giraffes. Too bad it wasn't flying giraffes, but we, eNoLa, are the experts on the flying giraffe business.

If you would like to talk more about FG's, please email sam eNoLa.

[solrac]

Originally posted by klamps
Hell yeah! That WOULD be cool, but it can't be because Apple is an egoist beyotch. And that IS necessary. What's the only thing that prevents mass acceptance of other *nix flavors? The GUI. From the end user point of view, of course.

no it's just that by keeping it Apple only, they can sell more copies of Mac OS X, not cuz they are egoist beyotches. Hahhaha this stupid UBB can't filter out the word beeyotch can it??? HAHHAHAHAH beyotch beyotch beyotch beyotch beyotch beyotch beyotch beyotch beyotch beyotch beyotch beyotch

They don't seem to care about it now either.

But they do. But the new Apple is brand new. Give developers time to realize that it's actually becoming great.

Why don't you try and let me know?

I don't know where to find the info. Just use google. Look for "porting unix or linux software to Mac OS X, and it's problems and its easiness" or whatever lol

Admins that don't know the software they run are NOT real admins. They're just playing. Coolness will NOT win market share. Besides you can't expect the market to freeze and wait for Apple.

They are real admins if they're getting paid to do something. Maybe they're not real GOOD admins. Heheheh. But Apple will use any method it can to get its Xserve boxes in the marketplace.

You're seriously mistaken. Mac OS X does NOT have more software than any *nix. RedHat does. If there's a program for *nix, there's a port for Red Hat. How can Mac OS X be the most distributed *nix system on the planet? You're obviously forgetting about Red Hat. It's FREE! You can login to ftp.redhat.com right now and get a copy. Can you do that with Mac OS X?

OK, what I meant is that Mac OS X has more software than any *nix over ALL. Red Hat may have more commands in /usr/bin or whatever, but Mac OS X has Photoshop, InDesign, Dreamweaver, After Effects, Final Cut Pro, etc. etc. That's what I meant by more software. And there are tons of *nix ports coming out for OS X all the time. One cool one i think they are gonna work on is this tool called midnight commander. Anyway, Mac OS X is more widely distributed than Red Hat. Remember, Apple is a HUGE company, and within a year they surpassed Red Hat's distribution numbers. There are more Mac OS Xs out there than Red Hats, unless what I read was false. Yes there are more Mac OS X even though it is not available on an FTP server. Only a carracho server heheeheh j/k.

Maybe now more people will write software for the Mac OS X. Let's see. And don't even mention Java. It runs even on my coffee mug, but what a pain in the arse.

I hope so. It's pretty predictable.

So resuming everything:

- F-U-C-K Apple for stealing open source code
- Red Hat is the best OS in the planet
- M$ suc ks blue whale's balls
- I just wasted my whole day doing this, which shows how stupid, therefore unqualified to do this, I really am ...

LOLOLOLOL You can't steal open source code!!!!!! HAHAHAH That's funny though. That's like stealing a free newspaper and putting cool graphics on it and selling it??? HAHHAHAHAHA

Red Hat ***** cuz the interface is hard to learn and harder to install and you can't get photoshop. Heheheheheh.

M$ suc ks mucho blue whale's balls but not as much as Azteca.net

I waste EVERY day doing this, so, um nevermind

[klamps]

no it's just that by keeping it Apple only, they can sell more copies of Mac OS X, not cuz they are egoist beyotches. Hahhaha this stupid UBB can't filter out the word beeyotch can it??? HAHHAHAHAH beyotch beyotch beyotch beyotch beyotch beyotch beyotch beyotch beyotch beyotch beyotch beyotch

So they can't make money without keeping the GUI? How come Red Hat makes money then?

They are real admins if they're getting paid to do something. Maybe they're not real GOOD admins. Heheheh. But Apple will use any method it can to get its Xserve boxes in the marketplace.

Hmmm ... sounds like M$.

OK, what I meant is that Mac OS X has more software than any *nix over ALL. Red Hat may have more commands in /usr/bin or whatever, but Mac OS X has Photoshop, InDesign, Dreamweaver, After Effects, Final Cut Pro, etc. etc. That's what I meant by more software. And there are tons of *nix ports coming out for OS X all the time. One cool one i think they are gonna work on is this tool called midnight commander. Anyway, Mac OS X is more widely distributed than Red Hat. Remember, Apple is a HUGE company, and within a year they surpassed Red Hat's distribution numbers. There are more Mac OS Xs out there than Red Hats, unless what I read was false. Yes there are more Mac OS X even though it is not available on an FTP server. Only a carracho server heheeheh j/k.

Nah beyotch. I'm not talking about command line commands. I'm talking about actual software. Go look at FreshMeat or SourceForge for example. Now the fact that OS X runs the other stuff like you mentioned only proves my point that Apple modified the kernel. How else would it run?

LOLOLOLOL You can't steal open source code!!!!!! HAHAHAH That's funny though. That's like stealing a free newspaper and putting cool graphics on it and selling it??? HAHHAHAHAHA

Exactly! Why do you think they used BSD? Because of it's license! GNU/GPL requires you to give back to the community, and Apple doesn't want to do that.

Red Hat ***** cuz the interface is hard to learn and harder to install and you can't get photoshop. Heheheheheh.

It has The Gimp which is FREE! So you don't have to resort to carracho's servers.

M$ suc ks mucho blue whale's balls but not as much as Azteca.net

I waste EVERY day doing this, so, um nevermind

Nothing su cks more than Azteca.Net.

Since you waste everyday doing this, that makes you ultimately brain-dead.