Human Interface Standards, the Dock and More...

ahaig · #1 April 8th, 2001, 01:29 PM

Please - Bring back Human Interface Standards to determine how people should program/lay out applications!

Mac OS X right now feels so very much like Windows instead of Mac OS - but even windows keeps menu names consistent, requiring File menus to the left of all the other menus etc.

Why do apps get their own menus between the "apple menu" (which is now useless, formerly perhaps the most-used item in the entire operating system) and the File menu? Why aren't those items in other menus (with appropriate names so we can know about the menu contents before looking in the menu)?

More importantly, why do applications now get to choose what shortcuts they assign? Cmd-Shift-O to open a file?? It is disappointing to see the consistent nature of the Mac OS fall apart and begin to look like a hack for Windows.

Along similar lines, please - bring back the functionality of the apple menu. As long as it is going to be there (with a number of useless items) at least make it customizable so that we can add our own folders. I am aware that the Dock has "the functionality of the apple menu" but it's not the same for a number of reasons. Most importantly, it takes up a ton of space on the screen. If I hide it, it's annoying to get to. The same thing goes for the process menu - we may not need it, but some of us truly appreciate having it, both as it makes it VERY clear what application is currently in the foreground, and because it enables simple switching without having to worry about the Dock using up all screen real-estate.

How about windows remembering their positions? I am hoping this is simply a quirk in the release and it will be remedied soon. Having to reposition windows every time they are opened when I have moved them before is one of the most frustrating aspects of the system.

Or Windowshades? Minimizing might serve a similar function, but it puts windows away where you have to go somewhere else (the Dock) to make them return. Sometimes it is useful to be able to simple shade a window quickly to see what is under it and then be able to double-click _without moving the mouse_ to make it return to normal.

Or another Windows "feature" - move control panels back to being individually accesible. Having to open an application first to access any of them (or not being able to directly open a single control panel without opening the generic application first) is ridiculously inefficient and annoying.

Bring back the Mac in Mac OS!

-Asher Haig

StormSilver · #2 April 8th, 2001, 11:08 PM

I agree.

...to a certain extent. Many of the things you speak of are associated with "Macintosh." But the thing you have to realize now is... This is not "Macintosh" in the sense we knew it before. This system is new. Much of it is more logical and intuitive than what we knew before. Having all of the control panels stored in one, easy to access application makes way more sense than having them in a folder in the Apple menu, which is subject to change at any time. I don't like having to wait for System Preferences to open either, but we must all change our paradigm (whoa, do I sound smart!) and think in new ways. Apple ain't kiddin' when it wants you to "Think Different."

But like I said, I agree. Windowshading is incredibly handy and I've really missed it. Perhaps they oughtta make it so that if you hit the minimize button, it goes to the dock, but if you double click the menubar, it windowshades.

Yes, the Apple menu is no longer customizable. The dock, in my findings at least, DOES in fact replace much of what the Apple menu used to do. You can put folders in it, and you can put apps in it, and you can put docs in it. It takes up tons of room, but not if you autohide it. It's no more annoying to get to than navigating to a menu. The only qualm I have with it is that with too many items, things become unusable. Like anything that tries to do too much (app switching, apple menu, etc.), it will never do any of those things as well as their OS 9 counterparts. But change your way of thinking.

Yeah, this new OS is a helluvalot more like Windows than the old one, and it's lost a lot of what makes it a "Macintosh." But Apple's put a lot of work into it, and I don't think they're about to change things.

That's just my two cents, and I'm pretty sure much of it is incoherent.

P.S.- Start running XFree86. Or simply go to the command line (logout and type ">console" as the login name). That'll really make you shudder and say, "MY GOD! This is a Mac??)

ahaig · #3 April 9th, 2001, 12:21 AM

I've done both - used X11 and CLI. They have their places... The problem with Windows is that it's a hack that remains somewhere between DOS (another hack) and a real (Mac) interface. OS X just feels like that sort of hack, now.

You're right about all of the functionality, but there's no REASON to change these things. People have gotten used to them and they've been that way because they function well. I appreciate the addition of the dock, but keep the apple menu!

Autohide is slow and still takes up more room (there's the hot spot) and the hot-spot doesn't work as easily as being able to find the apple quickly.

Apple has the power to change things - they should.

-Asher

plaidpjs · #4 April 9th, 2001, 12:24 AM

Both of you are starting an argument that's been running on these threads and throughout the history of OS development.

In movng to a standards based OS, Apple has chosen a MUCH more logical approach to the menu bar then they have used before.

In 9.1 and previous Mac OSes, the menu bar changed depending on the application, albeit, there was a certain consistency between each application, but they still changed and added what ever else the particualr application wanted up there.

In OS X, to provide better functionality, Apple has reserved the first two spots for Global functions and app functions, in that order. So, no matter which program you are in, by going to the apple menu you have access to all the commands that would previously get burried when the Special menu item was hidden by another apps menu bar. The App specific spot is to encourage developers to place all app-global command in one area (i.e., about, preferences, etc.).

It actually is a much better way of handling menuing. Just give it longer then two weeks, , you need to get used to it to see its functionality.

What bothers me here is that you claim it is reminiscent of Windows, which is so farm from accurate it isn't funny. On any current Windows OS, each application has it's own Menu bar, displayed in it's own application space. Macs have always used the Main Menu bar as common space for menuing, which allows for larger work areas and the use of motor memory skills because you are always moving up to the same area to access something from the menu bar in any application.

monty · #5 April 16th, 2001, 12:27 PM

ahaig, stop speaking for everyone. I LIKE the dock, and the current menu system in OSX. I don't want apple to change the stuff you say. Maybe there are more people with my point of view than yours. Apple got a lot of feedback during the beta and if they thought it would piss off a significant number of people who have used it for a while, they would have changed it. But you know what? They didn't!

When i boot into OS 9 (games) i start to notice all the silly thing there are.

You say bring back Human Interface Standards, apple is.
Example:
In OS 9 where is the preferences command in a application? sometimes the edit menu (Why??) some times elsewhere. In OSX it is in the same menu, the application menu.

You say that windows should remember their positions. In OS 9 each app had to implement this themselves. In OSX it is a standard, one line command that is very easy to program. If developers don't use it, blame them! OS X does have user interface guidelines, they're just different to the OS 9 ones.

The idea of having all the control panels in one application was MAC. Go to system 6. It was a desk accessory with a list of icons for the control panels on the side. And correct me if I'm wrong but in windows control panels are separate apps in a folder. So OS 9 is closer to Windows in that respect.

In fact I do agree with you on one thing: Windowshades. I too wish that there was a way to do as you say and I have sent apple feedback.

</rant>

peter

ahaig · #6 April 16th, 2001, 03:10 PM

Those are some seriously quality args you have there.

I never said to get rid of anything. I just said add the Apple menu back (so those of us who don't like the dock can use a real interface that doesn't get in the way) and let us have an app menu. No reason you have to use it.

As for the App menu, it gets in the way where it is and destroys consistency. There's no REASON to change it when it's worked how it's been for a long long time. Prior to Jobs killing HIS things were in standard positions.

As for control panels, OS X is more like windows b/c you have to first open the control panels section to get to any of them. I, unlike you apparently, appreciate efficiency. I like to be able to quickly access the specific settings I want to deal with. I don't care how the OS deals with them, but I want the option of a menu that will enable quick access.

I'm not speaking for anyone but myself. You people are all giving in to some weak-ass design and even applauding teh shitwork that Apple has put out. This is supposed to be our new OS - let's see something new and innovative about it that actually makes sense for serious use instead of just looking pretty for you to fantasize about.

plaidpjs · #7 April 16th, 2001, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ahaig
Those are some seriously quality args you have there.

I never said to get rid of anything. I just said add the Apple menu back (so those of us who don't like the dock can use a real interface that doesn't get in the way) and let us have an app menu. No reason you have to use it.

As for the App menu, it gets in the way where it is and destroys consistency. There's no REASON to change it when it's worked how it's been for a long long time. Prior to Jobs killing HIS things were in standard positions.

As for control panels, OS X is more like windows b/c you have to first open the control panels section to get to any of them. I, unlike you apparently, appreciate efficiency. I like to be able to quickly access the specific settings I want to deal with. I don't care how the OS deals with them, but I want the option of a menu that will enable quick access.

I'm not speaking for anyone but myself. You people are all giving in to some weak-ass design and even applauding teh shitwork that Apple has put out. This is supposed to be our new OS - let's see something new and innovative about it that actually makes sense for serious use instead of just looking pretty for you to fantasize about.

It's funny, but, most of the "features" you support remaining the same and claim have been around a "long, long" time, were only implemented in the OS as of version 8. Whihc, if memory serves, was the first release after Jobs took the post as interim-CEO/director (whatever they called the position).

Particularly, the contextual menus under the Apple... some people say those weren't even completely functional until 8.6.

ahaig · #8 April 16th, 2001, 03:37 PM

That's just plain inaccurate. The features I'm talking about have all been around since _at least_ 7.5 and before that with third party extensions (that Apple absorbed into the system).

As for contextual menus - who cares. I liked my right mouse button being shift-click - it was far more useful.

Regardless... I'm not complaining about adding features, but about the implementation of those. Not even Jobs could fuck up the generally standard (although not universal once he killed HIS) method of implementation in pre-X systems. Now he has complete control and he's destroy(ing/ed) the Mac standard.