Thoughts on OS-X/UNIX/and MacOS

[devnul]

Hello,

Actually I am glad that people are discussing this, but it raises a HUGE issue with me.... First of all, I'm a UNIX systems integrator, but I love the Macintosh interface....

It troubles me *tremendously* that Macintosh users are going to have to contend with the UNIX shells, etc just to get something done.. This is simply not what the Macintosh should be about....

I think that Pandoras Box has been opened here and loyal Macintosh users are going to be fed up with this very quickly....

I've not seen one post yet siting the ease-of-use of OS-X, which is indeed what the mac is suppose to be about.. Instead there are posts of stuff like:

"login as root"
"cd to /"
"chown on this"
etc...

As much as I love UNIX, I never wanted to see it on a Macintosh and this really *really* is a shame for all Macintosh users..

I always thought the day would come where instructions for installing programs in OS-X would be:

"start a terminal session"
"su to root"
"mount the cd-rom"
"gunzip the archive file"
"run ./install.sh"
"edit inetd.conf and add _______"

I just didn't think it would be here so soon... This is a sad day for the Macintosh - again.. As much as I like UNIX this is just not what the Macintosh is about...

I sincerely hope that average users will be able to use the Macintosh just as they have since the day it was created.... All this stuff is great for techies and it's great that people who want to learn it can - but it should be *strictly* optional.... The last thing the Macintosh needs is UNIX software installation procedures.... Or the UNIX filesystem layout, but I guess I'm too late on that one...

OS-X would have been just perfect if Apple had simply wrapped MacOS around a UNIX kernel.. I fear they have brought too much UNIX to MacOS and that loyal users are either not going to upgrade or get incredibly frustrated....

As UNIX developers we OWE it to the existing Macintosh users to not simply re-compile UNIX code to run under Mac OS-X, but to port it - so it works the way Macintosh users expect it to with the types of administrative interface they expect to see , and with an installation process that doesn't involve command-line interfaces.... MySQL ported to Mac OS-X is just MySQL... But MySQL ported to the Macintosh outta be MySQL with a comprehensive installer, GUI interface, and all the sophistication Macintosh users expect..... (of course, keep the CLI for those of us who love it.. ;> )...

Sure, it's extra work - but it's the only way to preserve the Macintosh now that Pandora's Box has been opened (in my my not-so-humble opinion..)...

Sincerely,

Greg Saylor
Senior Systems Integrator
Integrated Suport Services

[Edited by devnul on 10-04-2000 at 02:08 PM]

[hotani]

I agree, it should not be there for most users. Maybe the final release of OS X will not even come with the Terminal program. This would ensure that the new users, even the mac veterans would not need to use any UNIX ever ... if they don't want to.

however, I use command line daily - even prefer it sometimes, to the gui. I think it is great that it is there for those us who know how to use it, and WANT to use it.

Example: maybe php will be a push-button install that can be done from the gui one day (I think it is pretty much there with Xtools from tenon). Until then, here is something I would have never dreamed of trying to install on my old mac OS, and it is now running on my powerbook with X beta - this is great! I installed it from the command line, and learned something in the process.

I think for the mac user with no unix experience, the final version of OS X will be what it is intended to be: a more stable, modern operating system. For the UNIX/Mac users, it will be a dream come true: the macintosh interface on top of our beloved unix - we now have the option to use gui or not, to use our machine for games, word processing and graphics work, or as a full featured web-server.

just some thoughts...

[devnul]

That's what it should be and I totally agree with you - nothing interests me more then being able to get at the command line of OS-X... I love UNIX and I always will....

I just hope that Apple is getting the point that we both see so clearly.... OS-X needs to be another MacOS upgrade to Macintosh users.....

That being said, for the UNIX developers out there - we have an outstanding opportunity here and a great responsibility to the Macintosh users to produce the high quality software they are used to seeing....

I just fear that in order for all this great stuff to work - the users are going to HAVE to resort to the CLI.... .. Mainly because it's easier to recompile then it is to port.....

UNIX developers should step up to the plate - not force Macintosh users to change the way they've been using their computers for the past 16 years...

(just more thoughts and ramblings)

- Greg

[hotani]

also - regarding posts on these discussion boards: most, if not all of these users are Mac OSX/UNIX finatics; the beta testers, hackers, early adopters etc... I think that has a lot to do with the amount of posts sending people to the command line.

If my mom was using OS X and she emailed a question, I would carefully explain a GUI route to fix the problem (even though she was a mainframe programmer at one point, i dont think she has ever logged into a unix box!). On these boards, I tend to assume the person is a hacker to some degree; at least not scared of the command line.

[play42day]

I agree.
The average MacUser will be road kill.

This is not the Mac OS.

May never be.

[Zesty]

I would like to point out that a regular mac user does not need to launch terminal at all. This is still a mac in that it runs regular mac apps the way it always did. I love using the command line, so I do so. My wife uses Photoshop and never even knows it's there. The average user need not be troubled with all this stuff because s/he has no reason to start mucking around with it if they don't want to.

As far as Mac apps are concerned, the documentation that comes with the developer tools (and is available on apple's website) talks about the new way to write applications under OSX that greatly *simplifies* everything. The key word here is "bundle", an application that contains within it everything it needs to run on a machine.

Apple has done an amazing job, in my opinion, in providing for two seperate and diverse camps. You have, on one hand, the Unix folks who can do extremely useful and productive work and never even *see* Aqua, and just the opposite, people who need to do work that requires some kind of gui (photoshop, maya, whatever), and the command line is totally outside their radar.

[devnul]

hatoni:
Your statement is right on - but it *IS* also the problem.. MacOS users have never had to have things carefully explained to them.... There's a really serious problem here and I'm deeply concerned for those users who have invested so heavily in Apple's products..... Personally, I like almost everything about OS-X (of course I've been using OS-X server)... But, this is going to get brutally ugly I think.... I hope Apple has a solid plan for this, otherwise Mac OS-X is just going to be another UNIX with a pretty window manager..... And the bottom line is, OS-X would definately *NOT* be my first choice as a UNIX OS.... That being said, I can certainly understand writing to tarket the "hackers" which frequent this message board - it's not really that which concerns me so greatly.......

Things in MacOS should not need to be "explained carefully"..... It should be intuitive, clear, and work...

As a rediculously simple example of how out-of-control this is... Apple bundles Apache with OS-X.. Now if a user wants to turn it on or off they have to edit text files... Before they would have gone to a control panel and clicked "disable web server" or something similar... In Windows/NT one just goes to the service manager and "disables" the web server... What about upgrading Apache?... What about adding modules to Apache?.... What about setting up virtual domains, proxies, and secure services?....

The Mac has *somehow* become even more complicated to use then Windows....

So lets take these problems one at a time, the first problem of the day being:

Where's the GUI interface to administering Apache?...

(and no, I don't mean the crappy web-based administrative tools floating all over the place - where is the native MacOS tool for administering apache?...)...

I don't think any application belongs on OS-X that has not had the care taken to ensure it works the way MacOS users expect it to.....

I hope to that these types of tools are there when MacOS ships or this product is going to die a miserable death... The problems are much greater then what has been suggested repeatedly on this message board: "should we hide the terminal program or not?"... We are all thinking like UNIX-heads, not MacOS users - and that is going to be a terrible mistake for everyone...

I do not see how I can reasonably suggest to current MacOS users that an upgrade to OS-X will benefit them... They'll be completely miserable in this new environment.... Maybe when these concerns are actually addressed things will be different.... Until then, I guess it's WebStar with Mac OS-9 (for example)...

I make a strong recommendation that any MacOS user reading this evaluate OS-X very carefully before shedding any money for it....

Don't let us UNIX developers get your mindshare so easily - take us to task and make us work.... Don't buy this product until it meets your high standards... Don't "suffer through" with it....


play42day:
I think using the term "roadkill" may be an understatement...

- Greg

[devnul]

Zesty,

I used to think that Apple did a fantastic job until I started poking around on the message boards, newsgroups, and managed to get 5 minutes to play with OS-X beta.... Please someone win me back, I realy hurts me to have to say things, such critical things, about something I liked so much less then a year ago.....

On the contrary to your point - there are all sorts of new features of MacOS that are not configurable the way Mac applications outta to be... Apache is only one of them - a crucial piece of this new "internet technology" that everyone keeps talking about - yet it's the same old Apache and you have to use the same-old-unix tools to administer it.... This is decidely un-Mac-like and an insult to the millions of existing Macintosh users.......

There's problems here, big problems.... Unfortunately, I am speaking only from the few minutes that I played with OS-X beta, so I am not sure what all the applications are that you have to get to CLI in order to do anything with them - perhaps you can let us know what they are?...

In other words, what UNIX services does Mac OS-X run that require CLI to configure?...

DNS?
SMTP?
POP3?
FTPD?
INETD?
APACHE?
NIS?
SSL-related?

Why are there no GUI utilities?.. If they are so hard to configure - perhaps UNIX utilities shouldn't have been patched-to-compile.. Perhaps OS-X apps should have been WRITTEN....

.. from what I saw in the 5 minutes I played with it there were quite a few, though I am hoping you can clarify this for me if I am mistaken.... Or elaborate on my observation if I am correct...


Sincerely,

Greg

Yes! It's hard work! So what?!




[Edited by devnul on 10-04-2000 at 07:37 PM]