You gotta be kidding

[techoncall]

Folks let me clue you in,i'm a Mac systems admidnistrator,i have 185 users on G3's and better,they are all graphic artists,at this point i could never concieve to upgrading them to OS X beta or version whatever.

I can't get them to remember how to open the chooser and setup a printer,how in gods name are they going to learn OS X.
from what i can see its a confusing jumble of clustering,Apple needs to wake up and adopt os x more like classic 9,its one thing to change the the standard but make it like it was,it can be done!!

For all you geeks who post on this board and hack one or two machines,wake up,the public does not care,they will not accept os x as it is. it needs to be much classic like.

the only thing i have learned on these boards is to stay far away from os x and you geeks who think you know more than the real information technology world................................

[rinse]

that's pretty funny. prett right on, too.

i am a geek web designer, and am way more into OSX than my coworkers.

they have no interest in X and are actually dreading the day they have to switch.

i hope the final release is more mac-like... or the migration rate is going to be rather slow.

[zpincus]

i'd be pretty interested in technocall's objections to os x.

i have been wondering how the sort of users who make up such a core of the mac market -- the graphic artists who use their mac to work and may not know/care to know all the geeky details -- would react to the new os.

so technocall, or others in a similar situation -- what needs to be more "mac like?"
are you asking for a return of the apple menu and disks on the desktop (cosmetic mac-likeness so the migration is easy)?
are you asking for a more comprehensible (less unixish) filesystem?
is the multiple users concept too much?

i know i raged for weeks after getting os x about the lack of the apple menu, and the crappy dock, etc.
but after a bit, i really do feel that the new os is a lot more elegant. sure, functionality is missing here and there, but for such a radical change, i am impressed at its degree of mac-likeness. more than that, however, i am impressed with the ease to which i acclimated to os x (aside from the filesystem, which still on occasion confuses me a bit, what with all the softlinks all which way). i lost percieved control over the interface, what with no control strip or popup folders, but after a few months, i am not convinced i lost any actual control. my workflow hasn't been hindered at all, once i learned to work with os x and not fight it.
i think that doing this will be a lot easier than most people fear, and i am 100% sure that you don't have to be a geek to appreciate this.
(In fact, i think the geek contingent is the most likely to get caught up in trying to "fix" the new os to be more like the old one instead of spending the week it takes to learn a new, and in my opinion, simplified, workflow.)

but that's just my $2*10^2 (for all the geeks out there).

any thoughts?

[rinse]

some ideas things to make it more mac like (barring most dock/gui issues)

1. broader customization (the current MacOS is quite possibly the most configurable OS out there - you can work the way you want)

2. the Unix like filesystem ( A mac user says, "WTF is USR?" )

3. the absolute requirement to have multiple users (How about an option to install only a superuser account)

4. the whole tar / gzip / sit / bin / hqx thing. (one or two file compression schems is okay, but this is crazy.)

5. things like the clock are not apps to most mac users and launching them / quitting them is strange

6. having file suffixes that the user doesn't usually see is not mac like at all. (.app, etc.)

[mtc7501]

Originally posted by zpincus

but that's just my $2*10^2 (for all the geeks out there).

$200.... I think you meant $2*10^-2 or quite possibly $2/10^2.

[alistair_the_bold]

Folks let me clue you in, Im a student graphic artist. Ive been a student in this field since 96, this be my fourth year. Never used a mac b4 then. Love them now and as for not being able to setup a printer in chooser, that was easy to learn. As he said THEY ARE STUDENTS are they not there to learn, if they are not learning then maybe you are not doing your job.
What if they have to LEARN to use a new interface. I have had osx pb less than a week. There is still alot for me to learn. I dont like a few things but thats because it is different it doesnt mean you should freak about it. Change is bound to happen, and this new system will be such an advantage to graphic artists and multimedia users/students ie. we always get problems with memory allocation cant change it cos we dont have access priviledges. Have to get a tutor to change it. Which means logging out etc. no more time wasting for us on this front and no more can you increase the memory partiion please mister network supervisor. The protected memory and memory allocation on demand are worth the hassle alone!

I need to make a few adjustments but there is plenty of software already availible to make it resemble os9 a little more closely. for example I have found a program that lets you display your volumes and trash on the desktop, and others to display time on the menubar etc.


I am no geek in fact Im probably the last you would call a geek. I have found this new os very interesting. The new GUI is alot more attractive although after a few days I was already turning off animations, bit gimmicky.
Give the students a little bit of credit
I didnt find it difficult I dont think others will either.
Its a step forward dont keep looking back.

Look forward to seeing the apps I use developed

On a different note...

Will the whole app software need to modified or can you keep the plugins etc. and just remake the app file??
Being alot is standard files???
Dont know much about unix yet! so not sure what is required I expect not but just curious

[zpincus]

$200.... I think you meant $2*10^-2 or quite possibly $2/10^2.

Ouch. Thanks. Guess i'm just a careless geek.


Also, I think that the benefits of multiple user accounts aren't being really well publicized by apple.
Sure, letting multiple PEOPLE use the computer is good, but the real power here is how the system is protected from the apps. The idea of unpriviledged users like "nobody," or special users for special classes of background apps means that poorly coded apps can't destroy your filesystem. The idea that a user doesn't always have superuser priviledges is AMAZING, if only for the reason (among many others) that a truly malicious virus can't do much more than wipe the ~/ directories, if that. (Bad enough, but it is so much worse now).

Promoting the idea of the users logging in as superuser all of the time just destroys all of this built in security the system has. Now, I know this, and most people on these forums seem to know this, but why isn't apple palying up this aspect of multiuser systems? I think that unless people are educated, a lot of OS X 1.0 users will always log in as root for some silly reason, and then we'll start seeing OS X viruses and other bad news that we wouldn't have otherwise.

[G4Rules]

1. broader customization (the current MacOS is quite possibly the most configurable OS out there - you can work the way you want)

Customization will come. In fact, with the ability to change some values in the defaults of misc. applications, there is already some customization, Desktop as well as the Dock are included in the list of apps that are customizable.

2. the Unix like filesystem ( A mac user says, "WTF is USR?")

Correct me if I am wrong, but I recall the USR directory to be hidden by default. If these users are so fragile as to be afraid or put off by OS X, do you think they would actually take the time to go to the Terminal and set the correct property to show all files? I don't think so. I think Apple is doing what it needs to make the novice feel at home while giving the power user the ability to do what he/she wants. I think it is coming together nicely.

3. the absolute requirement to have multiple users (How about an option to install only a superuser account)

Well, you really would not want to have a superuser account only (ie. root) however you can set up OS X to automatically log you in as the user you defined while going through the setup. Is that not good enough? I mean it would act just like OS 9 withouth Multiple Users activated. Sounds pretty Mac-like to me.

4. the whole tar / gzip / sit / bin / hqx thing. (one or two file compression schems is okay, but this is crazy.)

For the mainstream commercial applications, and shareware for the most part, you will see Installer Packages. Stuffit (not necessarily the best choice) will handle unstuffing most all things you might need to unstuff. For power users, again, ones who want to port apps, or want to share some code, etc. I am sure will still use form of tar/gzip. I say the more options the better.

5. things like the clock are not apps to most mac users and launching them / quitting them is strange

I agree with this statement. I think Apple with incorporate these items into the OS by release. If not, there will be clock apps, etc. that will be applications, hidden from the dock, and set to auto start upon login. Effectively giving the appearance of being part of the OS. In fact, I believe you can do this already with some 3rd party apps.

6. having file suffixes that the user doesn't usually see is not mac like at all. (.app, etc.)

Well, the .app suffix is hidden from the user by default if I remember correctly. I believe you will have a global options to hide all extensions. While this is a good thing, I do think there is a need for file extensions. Especially when you find yourself in mixed environments. Not to mention, you use .jpg, .tif(f), .gif, ,.mp3, .mov, etc. already and people have not moaned and groaned about that too much... So if you can hide all the extensions eventualy, and the .app is hidden already, why are people still complaining.


Okay, sorry about this post, but I just wanted to give some of my views on OS X. Yes, it is missing functionality here and there. I might also be a bit disappointed if those missing pieces were not there by final, which I hope is still released in the 1st quarter of 2001. Apple needs to get this OS out. Regardless if mainstream developers are ready. They need to get Carbon solid and set in stone so developers can finish porting...

And as far as people feeling the the current Mac users may be hesitatant to migrate, I think you will find that OS X brings a whole new base of users that are just as, if not more so, fanatics about their OS. The power of X will bring new vocal users about its capabilites, and it may also leave some intimidated Mac users behind. In the end, I think the customer base of X will far exceed the base of OS 9 (or any previous version).