Made In Usa

[Perseus]

This hole hatred thing does seem like a fad. I mean it certainly makes some people feel better about themselves.

[bbloke]

There are two sides to this issue. Yes, there are some who attack "America" (whether that means the people, the nation, or the government) because it can be socially acceptable. But I do say "some." I have lived in both the UK and the USA, and so tend to feel affinities to both countries, but don't really have a definite, single sense of national identity, which I think is a good thing in many ways. When I hear people attack "America" out of knee jerk reaction, rather than based on genuine facts, I tend to confront them and try to show the other side. Likewise, when I hear Americans talk of being leader of the free world or taking the moral high ground, then I confront them too.

I think it is really important to make some distinctions here! I don't think a lot of what people hear is genuine hatred, although that does exist around the world too. I also think we need to make distinctions between the American people, the American nation as an entity, and current or past government administrations. When people complain about the USA's role in the world, it is most usually about the foreign policy, rather than American citizens on an individual basis (although the line obviously blurs when you have citizens defending policies which others find reprehensible).

If this sort of thing becomes seen by Americans as a passing fad, where non-Americans have no real basis for disliking America's actions in the world and are just jealous or something, then I'd really, really, really worry. I would then not know if those with this view were simply not aware of things done in their name over many decades, or whether they actually supported them. For the sake of brevity, I won't go into lots of details at the moment, but the list does involve environmental policies which others cannot support, overthrowing democratic regimes, supporting dictators, turning a blind eye to genocide, use of torture, and so on.

I certainly wouldn't want people to get the feeling I'm attacking the USA right now. To me, bobw's and nixgeek's comments were very well measured and I appreciate them being understanding about what was at the heart of the matter. At risk of putting words in CaptainQuark's mouth, I expect these are the sorts of people he would have no issues with at all, and CaptainQuark is complaining about the attitudes of others. Also, to show this is not about targeting a certain nationality, I'll give you a counter example where I was deploring the manufacture of torture devices in the UK, which were then exported. Someone I was discussing this with then told me he didn't care about that, he was more worried about supporting British jobs. I then, as you can imagine, really went to town on him (verbally). People have concerns about all Western governments, but a problem is that America tends to be more powerful and therefore "the stakes are higher" (i.e. a greater capacity to do harm if they pursue similar or "worse" foreign policies), and that might it look like America is being a target out of some hidden motivation, when in fact the concerns are genuine.

[yossarian1000]

Yes, I'm an American. Yes, I'm both a protectionist and an isolationist when it comes to minding our own business, staying out of other countries business, and protecting our own manufacturing jobs, but I also don't think we Americans spend nearly enough on foreign aid. Of course, if we still had manufacturing jobs here, we'd have a lot more money to spend on foreign aid because we'd have a lot more middle class people to pay middle class taxes.

Having Chinese workers who earn an average of $42 a month working 12 hour days just to keep WalMart supplied with cheap goods is not a viable solution either for helping raise the standard of living in China or providing Americans with decent paying jobs here. However, if you're a multi-national corporation, it's a perfect solution. As long as corporations are fat, the rest of us can live on the crumbs.

If the Chinese want to sell DVD players or computers in the United States, then either pay their workers equivalent US wages or pay a stiff tariff to make up the difference. My personal preference would be higher wages but I'm sure we could use the tariffs to pay down our trillion dollar deficit.

The United States no longer has an electronics industry, the steel industry is almost gone, and last night Northwest Airlines was reported to want to fire 2500 flight attendents and replace them with cheap foreign workers.

Yes, I'm aware that buying a computer from an American company which is assembled by a union member is a pointless gesture, but if the only option one is left with is a pointless gesture, why worry about it? Not shopping at WalMart is also a pointless gesture but I have no problem with that either.

Some of you may have noticed the union built pc site I linked to sells computers for about the same price as everyone else. The New Balance shoes I'm wearing are made in the United States yet sell for about the same price as "cheap" foreign shoes. The union made jeans I'm wearing are also about the same price. However, my union made sweatshirt is about $5 more. I can live with that.

Don't get me wrong. I can live with fair trade and globalization as long as it means a higher standard of living for foreign workers and not sacrificing our standard of living in the process, but when American companies use slave labor and stuff their own pockets in the process, well, that's just bad.

On the other hand, I guess you could make a good argument that bringing slaves into America to grow sugar cane in the early 1800s...not cotton, by the way...was good for the American economy and they were probably better off being slaves than they were back in Africa. Right? Globalization?

One argument about buying Apple products that I haven't seen here is the one where I continue to purchase American made and Union made products whenever and wherever possible but continue to support Apple because of their innovations....pretty much the same argument for buying that Porsche I can't afford or the French brie I so dearly love.

I suppose the thing I find most troubling is the large number of people who see no value in collectiving bargaining, no value in others having a good job...as long as you do...and the large number of people out there who don't realize there has never been a communist government on this planet ( a communist government by it's very nature must also be 100% democratic). I'm also at a complete and total loss as to why the FX Network couldn't make a go out of OVER THERE...but that's just me.

Thanks for the comments and the input.

[bobw]

You talk about Unions. Unions are a primary reason our jobs have left the US. People decide to unionize, then tell the owners of the company, how much they have to pay them, how much health insurance they have to supply,etc.
Still doing this today. In my city, the public transportation went on strike a few weeks ago. Major city, it crippled the city for a week, not long, but the last strike three years ago, when that contract ended, they went on strike for 40 days. The union wanted what they wanted, not caring about whether or not the city or state had the money to pay for their request. And, they negotiated in the new contract, that the workers didn't lose any money, they had to be paid their normal pay for the time they went on strike.

I'd go out of my may to buy non-union.

As for foreign aid from the US, I think the US should take care of the people here that don't have shelter, food, jobs, etc, before a dime is sent to any other country.

All the money we pay in taxes should help here first, but our politicians see fit to give our money away in anyway they want to.

example-Pennsylvania Senator gives France 4 million to study fruit flies.

[Perseus]

Politicians also spend way too much on their own campaigning. Mayor Bloomberg of NYC spent roughly $60 million of his own cash, to get a few extra votes.

[128shot]

Quite yet another thread I can make an ass out of myself in heh..





The real problem with any globalized process ends up being this-


Labor is a commodity, and in many countries this commodity is under oppressive rule and doesn't have the chance to bargain-



on the flip side-China just held its first election in years, and has loosened great resetriction on peasants, and on labor. Allowing for the first time in years for the standard of living to boost 3 fold, 3 fold. Thats insane.



Labor unions themselves aren't inherently bad, but look at who controls the unions.

1.Mob bosses


2. Greedy men

3. Idiots


you got it, thats basically who controls most of the unions in the united states.


For example:

So what if the business you work for is paying you lets say 5 dollars an hour, and they could pay you 6? just for kicks, lets say thats damn good money.



you know most of the jobs being exported happend 10 years ago? why didn't it cause problems then? how come the economy didn't crash?


Give me a break...

[adambyte]

"Mob Bosses, Greedy Men, and Idiots"... those people also control major corporations, and the two parties in American politics...

Aw, hell. Those kinds of people are everywhere, really.

[Satcomer]

<cut for civility sake>