Blasphemous cartoons

[dmetzcher]

Originally Posted by Mikuro

On the one hand, I don't believe in censorship. On the other hand, people shouldn't feel like they can do whatever the heck they want. They're pushing the limits just for the sake of pushing the limits here, and I don't think that's respectable.

I'm not commenting on the cartoons, but speech does not have to be respectable to be protected. In other words, it's the speech that we may not like that needs the most protection. Silencing others is one sure way to pave a path for others to silence you.

I said that I wasn't commenting on the cartoons, and I'm not, because I have not seen them, or even followed this story at all. I do, however, believe that all religions are open to criticism, and that people have a right to express their opinion of another's religion (I am especially critical of the Evangelical Christians in my own country, and was, in fact, raised Christian). I feel, more and more each day, that people of all religions tend to feel that they are entitled to not be offended, as if, simply because their beliefs are dear to them, others should choose their words carefully.

My point has been seen most recently here in the United States, where several school boards have decided that evolution is to be taught side-by-side with creationism. It's not that the school boards are doing this that scares me the most, it's that the politicians and media are afraid to express any view that might cause those who have certain religious beliefs to be offended. So I ask the question - why should someone like me, who has studied evolution and subscribes to the theory, worry that something I might say could offend someone who holds a particular religious belief? Would I be afforded the same luxury? Would those who want creationism - a purely religious theory - taught in public schools walk on the same egg shells for me that they expect me to for them? I think the answer is no, and I think it should be.

Should the paper have published the cartoons? Maybe not, simply because putting forward views that skew what is Islam is all about is simply bad journalism. The paper should not be silenced, or censored, however. The readers will decide, as they always do, what they will read. It is up to other outlets of journalism to call this thing what it is, and state the facts. People should be educated with the truth, and, when they are, this paper will either issue an apology or simply fade away.

You made the comment that, "people shouldn't feel like they can do whatever the heck they want". I respectfully disagree. We take the good with the bad, or we get nothing good at all.

[dmetzcher]

Originally Posted by Zammy-Sam

I think it's rather a "bad timing". Currently there seem to be tensions between religious groups all around the world. If I got it right, those cartoons were actually published 3 months ago. Yet the reaction boosts now when the tensions are getting stronger and stronger. Sometimes I have the feeling that some powerful groups are throwing coal into light fire on purpose so it can go up in flames at the right time. It scares me.

You get that feeling because that's exactly what is happening, all around the world. Religion is the most polarizing issue in the world, and when people want to divide one group from another, they simply use religion.

[dmetzcher]

Originally Posted by rhisiart

They deserve a modicum of respect and should not have to put up with cartoons mocking their faiths, however 'harmless' non-religous people believe these cartoons to be.

Why do they deserve to not have their faiths mocked? What if I were a person (and I will not say whether or not I am or am not) who believed that religion was nothing more than a drug designed to keep people in line throughout the centuries? What if I believed that those who believed in a god or gods were no different that those who believed that thunder was produced by angels bowling in heaven? What if I believed that those who believe in a higher power are no different than those who believed that the Earth was flat, or that it was the center of the universe?

Your response might be that 95% of the world believes in a higher power. My response to that would be "so what?" Does that mean that they are correct? All of Europe (the entire "known world" at the time) believed that the earth was flat at one point in time. For all their believing, it wasn't so.

I say all this to make the point that it doesn't matter what you or I believe. We are not entitled to have others walk on egg shells, sparing us criticism for our beliefs. I spare no one criticism for their political beliefs, and I spare them just as much for their religious beliefs.

You might call this showing someone "respect" for the beliefs that they hold. OK, fine. I might believe that welfare is wrong and should be done away with (I don't believe this at all, but I'll play devil's advocate here). If I were to tell you that, or something else that you disagreed with on principle, would you keep your mouth shut about it? Would you simply walk away? I wouldn't if you were to say the same to me. Respecting someone means respecting their right to have a particular view or belief. It does not mean giving that view or belief your personal respect. It does not mean that you watch what you say because you might offend someone, or hurt their feelings. In addition, starting wars or becoming enraged because someone hurt your feelings (and that's really what it is - a petty "you hurt my feelings" argument) is unacceptable and foolish.

Further, regarding the mocking of one's faith, I hear religious people talking about non-believers like they are common street trash on TV every day. What if not having a faith is, in itself, a faith? What if I choose to believe in no higher power? Will my quasi-faith be respected? I'll put it a different way: What if someone worships the devil? Will you ask that cartoons of the devil be pulled from papers? I doubt it, because no one likes the devil, right? That would make it OK in the minds of most people. If only a small group of people supports a particular view, the standard treatment is to pretend that they don't exist. The problem with religion is that the only people who respect your religion are the people who subscribe to it. We all say that we respect other religions, but what we really mean is that we respect someone's right to have whatever religion they desire. We don't really respect their views. If we did - if we walked on egg shells - there would be no debate in this world. There would still be one religion, and it wouldn't have anything to do with Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, or any other current major world religion.

You are owed only one thing as a human being, and that is to be left alone to do what makes you happy, so long as you are not hurting others. Anything outside of that is too much to ask and you are infringing on others.

[Mikuro]

Originally Posted by dmetzcher

I'm not commenting on the cartoons, but speech does not have to be respectable to be protected. In other words, it's the speech that we may not like that needs the most protection. Silencing others is one sure way to pave a path for others to silence you.

To clarify, I didn't mean that I think they shouldn't be allowed to say these things just because I don't think it's respectable. I'm against censorship, and I mean for everything else I say to be viewed in that light.

I do think it's unfortunate that they did say these things, though, and I frown upon them for it because I don't think their motives/methods are respectable. I don't think people should feel like it's okay to say anything, but that doesn't mean I think anyone should be able to stop them.

I feel the same way about a lot of mainstream TV pundits, too, even when the say PC things. I'm not a slave to political correctness.

Let me put it this way: If I'm walking down the street, I CAN say anything I want to anyone who passes by. That doesn't mean I should, and it doesn't mean I do. And if someone said outrageous things to me on the street, I probably wouldn't try to shut them up — but I WOULD think "god, what an @$$#*!&". I'd just leave it to the court of public opinion.

It's a matter of "the lesser of two evils". I don't like the "well what're ya gonna do about it?" attitude that people have when they're offensive merely for the sake of being offensive. But it would be even worse if you gave anyone the right to decide what's "legitimately" offensive and what's not. Everything can be offensive to someone, after all.


As for whether these cartoons are incitement, I don't think that was the intent.

[fryke]

If those protesting muslims are against free speech, why are they allowed to protest? Really, just kidding here... I just want to say that I think it's quite healthy to be able to laugh about religion from the time to time. We *all* know there are different religions. Fanatically religious people are the _first_ to know that there are other beliefs than their own. Making fun of other people's beliefs has a long history (it's in the bible, too, btw., that episode I call the big "god show-off duel", where the christian god refuses to show its powers on demand), and I think we'd all get along better if we acted like this:

a) Try *not* to make fun of other people's beliefs, unless they're wrong. (I just _had_ to add that little bit, sorry...)
b) If someone makes fun of your beliefs, try to see *why* he or she's doing it and try to _see_ the humourous aspects of your beliefs. It'll actually help you _strengthening_ your beliefs in my opinion. Unless _you're_ wrong, that is.

So, come to think of it. I think both the press publishing such cartoons as well as the protesting muslims are both showing not enough humour and respect.

[delsoljb32]

What I don't understand about this is how "Cartoon = Burn Buildings and Hurt People". To me that doesnt add up. My flag is burned just about every single day in other countries. That, in my opinion, is more inflamatory (excuse the pun) than a cartoon could ever be. But I don't go out and burn down consulates and embassies over it. Why? Because I have respect for other people's opinions. That is YOUR opinion, fine. I don't like it, but I won't freak out about it. Get mad, fine, but don't friggin hurt people in the process!!

[Rhisiart]

Originally Posted by dmetzcher

Why do they deserve to not have their faiths mocked?

I just think it’s crass to mock someone's belief, whether that belief is based on religion or atheism. Disagree with them: yes of course because that's freedom of speech, but too take the piss is another matter.

Originally Posted by dmetzcher

I hear religious people talking about non-believers like they are common street trash on TV every day.

Yes, I do too and it sucks.

Originally Posted by dmetzcher

You are owed only one thing as a human being, and that is to be left alone to do what makes you happy, so long as you are not hurting others.

Mocking someone’s beliefs (religious or otherwise) is hurtful.

However, reacting to someone's lack of respect for your beliefs in a hysterical and disproportionate way suggests that your belief is just blind faith.

P.S. Interesting article on the BBC web site today: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4685886.stm.

[dmetzcher]

Originally Posted by rhisiart

I just think it’s crass to mock someone's belief, whether that belief is based on religion or atheism. Disagree with them: yes of course because that's freedom of speech, but too take the piss is another matter.


Yes, I do too and it sucks.


Mocking someone’s beliefs (religious or otherwise) is hurtful.

However, reacting to someone's lack of respect for your beliefs in a hysterical and disproportionate way suggests that your belief is just blind faith.

P.S. Interesting article on the BBC web site today: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4685886.stm.

I agree with everything you are saying here. I do not mock the faiths of others, but I just don't think that we should try to stop others from doing so. I choose not to do it because I think going around and hurting people is useless nonsens. I also tend to think that people of faith are people of faith for life. Changing people simply doesn't work. Arguing religion is like arguing about which flavor of ice cream is better.

Regarding your response to my statement about being left alone to live your life so long as you don't hurt others...
Mocking religion might be hurtful, but I was speaking about direct harassment, rather than expressing your views in a public forum, and not caring how those views affected the feelings of others. Lots of things are hurtful and still protected, as should they be. In a public forum, where many are in the discussion on both sides of an argument, I don't think that criticizing, or mocking someone else is something we should guard against. I can see it now, we start guarding against that, and every celebrity and politician suddenly wants protection. Religion is a thing, not a person. Mocking it might hurt others feelings, but that is life. It should still be protected.

In addition, I just don't think that believing something (especially something like religion, which has never once been proven factual), though it might be sacred to you, should be made to be sacred to others. In other words, you have a religion. It is not your race, sex, or your sexual orientation. It is something that you believe. It does not deserve the same protections from "mocking" that certain things, like the three that I listed, do.

I'll put it a different way:
"I am a right-wing Christian. I believe that gay marriage and abortion are terrible sins, and that everyone participating in either 'activity' will burn in hell. Hey! No mocking my faith! It hurts my feelings! To tell me that I am a blowhard without respect for your freedoms! Don't tell me that my 'religion' is wrong, or mock it in a cartoon!"

The above is an example that I see all the time. It's crap. They are wrong, I believe that they are wrong, then can either (1) keep their beliefs to themselves (and this means that I don't want to see any friggin' ads on TV during election season), or (2) shout their beliefs loud and proud, and enter into an argument with everyone else. Fine by me, but don't claim that you don't get to have your feelings hurt.

While I might not agree with the message of the cartoons, they do say something about the perception that many in Europe and the US have about Islam, given the fact that the religion has been hijacked by a growing number of lunatics bend on pushing their views onto everyone else.

I'm sorry, but you have not made a good enough argument for not mocking someone's religion.