World Cup 2006

[fryke]

Well, I'm sure Rooney doesn't walk around saying "Sorry!" now. He's not the type. I'm not defending C. Ronaldo, btw. - I agree with what you say about him. I also saw that C. Ronaldo and others tried (and obviously managed) to make Rooney angry. But if he can't stay the heat... If you try to see Rooney _not_ through British eyes, you'll see a young man rushing headlong. And the refs clearly have had the guideline to show cards when fouls are hazardous to the attacked player's health.

[bbloke]

I've felt rather patronized here, and so feel I have to respond.

[Edit: I should clarify that I don't mean this in a wider sense in this thread. I am referring solely to being accused of seeing things a certain way only because of national bias (see above post), implying I have no valid reason for my views, only jingoism.]

Originally Posted by fryke

Well, I'm sure Rooney doesn't walk around saying "Sorry!" now. He's not the type.

For a start, you're not being fair. You seem to see it as: Rooney fouled someone, he meant to foul someone with malice, and he's not a decent enough person to apologize if he did. You're making a big judgement: "Rooney's a Bad Person."

If: (1) he is innocent and (2) it was an accident and (3) he was sent off unfairly, do you really still expect an apology?

If he is not innocent then OK, but then we also have to apply this comment to everyone, not just the English. What about the Portuguese? Do you see other Portuguese players apologizing for diving and for any fouls? How about Figo in the match with The Netherlands? There, he clearly headbutted someone. Figo got off incredibly lightly. I don't see you calling for a red card against him, expecting an apology, and attacking his character. Plus, I think that case was much less ambiguous than this one... The difference is: you support Portugal and Figo is Portuguese.

Originally Posted by fryke

I also saw that C. Ronaldo and others tried (and obviously managed) to make Rooney angry. But if he can't stay the heat...

Putting the issue to one side whether or not Rooney was angry and lashed out, or whether it was an accident... You really must apply your attitudes equally, as Portuguese players have lashed out in recent times. By your own measure, Figo should not be playing either. Nor Deco. And others.

Originally Posted by fryke

If you try to see Rooney _not_ through British eyes, you'll see a young man rushing headlong.

OK, this is the comment which irked me and made me feel I had to reply. If only I was less biased and more honest, I'd see things like you do, eh? I don't appreciate the implication that I am somehow blinkered, while you are above such things.

Have you actually watched the video? "A young man rushing headlong" eh? I've watched the video repeatedly, and I fail to see Rooney dangerously rushing in somehow. I see him with the ball and desperately trying to stay upright and keep possession, while being hacked at... I have to agree with Rooney's statement, most other teams *ahem* would have just dived and taken the foul.

Furthermore, you state something about seeing things through "British eyes." Ignoring the fact that the Welsh, Scots, and Northern Irish might not be too keen on you lumping them in as being the same as the English, you're being simplistic. I've already stated that opinion in this country seems divided about what happened. In addition, I work with people from a range of countries (outside of the UK) and, from what I hear, it is not just the English who have a few things to say about that match.

This first came up with the conversation about Urs Meier, a Swiss referee who made decisions against England/in favor of Portugal. You seemed to portray me as biased as an England-supporter, but how can you, a Swiss Portugal-supporter, really tell me objectively and in very absolute terms what was "_right_"? Surely you would be doubly-biased, if anything! This followed on to when we come to the similar subject of Rooney (i.e. another England vs. Portugal situation) and it again comes down to me being on the English side, and you being a Portugal supporter, but you seemingly imply I'm the only one seeing things through biased eyes.

I have mentioned and accepted pro-English bias. I have also stated I'm open to being wrong. My contention is this: I feel this is one-way.

[bbloke]

Last night's Semi-Final between Italy and Germany looked very good. Neither side sat back too much, both went for goals. It could have easily turned out to be a very nervous match, with both sides too afraid of conceding a goal. As it turned out, both played well.

I had the perception that Italy might have just had a slight edge, but there was not a lot in it. The game was also played in a decent enough spirit and the referee did a good job, especially as he set the tone by not going card-crazy early in the game. The two goals were very good, and it must have been heart-breaking for Germany. The Italians could not have left it much later...........

Congratulations to Italy and commiserations to Germany. It was one of those games where you almost don't want either side to lose!

[fryke]

(Deco, btw., _did_ get a red card, didn't he...) ... I think you took my message down the wrong throat, and yeah I do mix up British/English/UK/Common Wealth a lot. So I meant English eyes. Sorry 'bout that. And yes, bbloke, I've seen the videos, too. I've seen them again and again, and I was in the middle of English fans with a Portugal shirt, and it was _difficult_ for me as well, I didn't think it helped the game overall (and above all, I want to see good games at World Cups), but that kick in the balls was clear, and after a while, even the English fans in the pub I was at agreed that for this he got the red card... But let's let it rest, please.

I agree about Italy vs. Germany, btw. Good game, although I _did_ hope we'd see more goals (for both sides).

[reed]

Bad tactics by the Germans. Hoping for penalties. Too bad seeing how they were the host country and have a great (future) team. Italy throws in the reserves. Same error with Argentina. One goal....let us run the clock out. Attack. Always attack till the whistle blows.

[Rhisiart]

Originally Posted by fryke

... and yeah I do mix up British/English/UK/Commonwealth (sic) a lot.

In my experience, most non-Brits don't understand this British/English/UK thing for the simple fact that they don't want to. However, I am sure this does not apply to you .

Originally Posted by fryke

... yes, bbloke, I've seen the videos, too. I've seen them again and again, … but let's let it rest, please.

I think bbloke thinks you were dismissing him, i.e. “looking at Rooney through British (sic) eyes”, perhaps implying that he is blind to any opposing opinion. (Sorry - didn't let it rest did I?).

Originally Posted by fryke

I agree about Italy vs. Germany, btw. Good game, although I _did_ hope we'd see more goals (for both sides).

Yes, a truly wonderful spectacle of football. I was surprised to see such good sportsmanship from the Italian team. Perhaps they had been warned before the game to play fair. Ironically, it seems that when they do their football improves.

[bbloke]

(Sorry this post is so long... I'm trying to make sure I've said everything I need to, and I'm looking for different angles to make my point if I haven't done so already.)

Originally Posted by rhisiart

I think bbloke thinks you were dismissing him, i.e. “looking at Rooney through British (sic) eyes”, perhaps implying that he is blind to any opposing opinion.

Thanks, rhisiart.

This is basically it: I feel dismissed quickly and patronized, as I'm effectively told I need to be "put right" by someone who allegedly knows better than me and seems to think they are not also biased.

Originally Posted by fryke

(Deco, btw., _did_ get a red card, didn't he...)

Well, he didn't, actually. Not in the way that I'm talking about. Deco got a yellow card for a reckless tackle when he was angry. He then got a second yellow card, which leads to a red, for messing about with the ball ("time wasting") at a later stage. That's two yellows, not a single red for an aggressive act. Therefore, Deco and Figo did not get red cards when they lashed out in anger.

Also, what I was mainly referring to was your phrase "But if he can't stay the heat..." The saying "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen" means "Don’t take on a job if you are unwilling to face its pressures" ( http://www.bartleby.com/59/3/ifyoucantsta.html). So I'm saying if you think Rooney shouldn't be playing because of his temper, then surely neither should more than one of the Portuguese side. I'm applying your own rules to your own team, basically.

Originally Posted by fryke

... I think you took my message down the wrong throat

I certainly hope so, but it didn't seem that way in the light of the rest of the conversation.

The crux of it to me is this: we are both biased. Neither of us is truly objective and therefore neither can talk in absolute terms to the other. Life is never that simple.

So that we could move on, I just hoped for an indication that you were not peering down your nose at me, not telling me you know best, not saying that a pro-Portugal bias does not affect you, and not saying that my views are "wrong" and based purely in bias, rather than facts. I feel I didn't get that, alas.

Originally Posted by fryke

But let's let it rest, please.

I agree with this and genuinely want to, but I find it very difficult because the following bits of text seem to indicate to me that nothing's changed...

Originally Posted by fryke

but that kick in the balls was clear

You see? How can I feel like we've moved on when you say this sort of thing? It's not a problem that you disagree with me, that's fine. It's the manner in which you talk down to me. You just tell me I'm flat out wrong and there can be no room for uncertainty. I've tried to talk about what I saw, what people of other nationalities saw, of me accepting my own national bias, of me being open to being wrong, how you will be biased too, and so on. But I feel the reply I get is basically a very simple and a very absolutist: "......You're still wrong." I'm surprised and disappointed by this.

Also, with something so difficult to judge (as you agree), I find it amazing that anyone could say that it definitely or clearly was or was not a deliberate stamp...

Originally Posted by fryke

even the English fans in the pub I was at agreed that for this he got the red card...

Agreed that is what he was sent off for? Well, it was, according to the referee's report!

If you mean that it was a deliberate foul... then... again... some English fans think it was deliberate, some don't. Some non-English viewers think it was deliberate, some don't. I've already stated that opinion is divided, so I don't find this statement achieves anything.

To repeat: I both accept that I have national bias and accept that I may be wrong in my interpretation of events. The issue for me is that is appears as if only one of the two of us accepts these things about themself.

Originally Posted by fryke

I agree about Italy vs. Germany, btw. Good game

Yup, it was. Some have even said they thought it was the best game of the tournament.

Tonight's match between France and Portugal should be interesting, and there were some comments in the media by Gallas. Here's hoping France are on form and that the match is played fairly by both sides. This is one of the very few occasions that I'll actively cheer on France!

[bbloke]

Originally Posted by reed

Bad tactics by the Germans. Hoping for penalties.

And Italy certainly seemed worried about it going to penalties!

Originally Posted by reed

Too bad seeing how they were the host country and have a great (future) team.

True. I do feel a little sorry for them. And they have been good hosts so far to all the foreign fans.