Mr. Bush should be proud

[Satcomer]

Originally posted by dafuser
Europe seems to have forgotten the lessons history teaches us about giving in to dictators like Saddam. What happened when Europe tried to appease Hitler?

"Peace in our time"

[Satcomer]

Originally posted by toast

War is a primitive, pre-Cold War means to win primitive domination. I understand African nations can still use war, but I don't understand post-industrial countries can still consider it as an option.

Be careful! Your statement looks like a very subtle form of racism.

[hulkaros]

...posted the following stuff in the other war related thread but I think that it can relate here as well without changing a thing... Excuse me for double posting

...is TOTALLY wrong!

You know what? All these mad governments in out troubled earth should let THEIR presidents and staff kick each other inside a box ring or something... They all are crazy and NOT good or evil!

If THEY had the REAL guts THEY should be the ones that had a REAL fight inside a ring or something...

War at ANY level: Weapons-based or psychological-based is ALL wrong...

If governments of this planet think that they MUST have wars again and again THEM and THEM alone should kick each other and not put soldiers, families, et al fight THEIR wars... They all DO wrong by sending innocent people to fight THEIR wars because simply THEY lack the guts... I guess we are all suckers for voting them (or not) in the first place: You know what? If people really don't like the wars of those foolish governments when they will give the order of attacking other countries ALL SOLDIERS should NOT obey: What? They gonna kill them all? Their own soldiers? But then again I forget: Those soldiers in the first place they lack the guts: They prefer to kill other people just for money or egoism (we are the good ones and you are the bad ones --then again Iraq has its own Holy War to declare against the US et al pigs).

A rant of mine or not, I simply say that governments know that they do the wrong thing by executing wars and they simply doing so because they lack the REAL weapons: Clear and pure minds and souls... Them all are rotten inside them methinks!

Although I don't like George Michael I think his video clip which shows Bush, Blair et al, it sums governments of this troubled planet SO damn accurate that it is SO damn scary

The one who wins a war is the one that he doesn't have to live a war in the first place cause when you live a war (you, yourself and not someone else) you know how REALLY wrong is firsthand... VERY small scale example of war: You fight with your bare hands someone who is VERY strong, maybe stronger than you... In the end even if you beat him giving him black eyes, blood all over his face and stuff, still you have your fists and body feel too much pain AND you have to clean your clothes and soul from this mess! And who knows even if you beat your opponent you may still go to the hospital for a week or more

As for the ones who seem to believe that when we done talking we should start acting this is plain wrong: When you THINK that you done talking, talk some more... Or you know what? Maybe DON'T talk at all! Sometimes, silence gives better results than talking...

You know what? I must follow my own above advice

[hulkaros]

"Originally posted by dafuser
It's lucky for you the USA doesn't see things as cut and dried as you do, otherwise you and the rest of Europe would be now be speaking German. Or do you think Hitler would of allowed you to stay neutral while he conquered the rest of the world because war is evil?"

While now we all HAVE to learn to speak at least english, german and french (plus our own language: Greek) if we want JUST to stay competitive in the job market... This supposed to be better? Or do you think that we are free people now? Hmmm...

As for Hitler: He attacked other european countries... Correct me if I'm wrong: When exactly Sadam attacked US, Europe et al and the US MUST strike back? Or is it a matter of pre-strike? Then again european countries and US didn't pre-strike Hitler back then, did they?

"Europe seems to have forgotten the lessons history teaches us about giving in to dictators like Saddam. What happened when Europe tried to appease Hitler?"

People seem to forget or like to forget history lessons and not just Europe... Am I wrong also thinking that US put Sadam where he is right now? Oh, I forgot: Back then, it was ok to support him...

[AppMan]

hmmm..
Lots of soap boxes here....

I lost a couple close friends on 9-11. I wonder if some of your opinions would change if you had too.
If you think Saddam isn't aiding terrorists that is being naive.
I think the U.S. is being very proactive in the War Against Terror but if you rather we nuke Iraq after another terrorist attack then I hope its your friends dying not mine.

Just my 2 cents.

[Cat]

Instead, a more patient, peaceful solution to the Saddam problem was sought over more than 10 years.

Well, that is debatable... what happened from another point of view was that Iraq was heavily sanctioned and abandoned to its own... at that time, although internal opposition was ready and willing, there was no talk of regime change. Now after 10 years iraq is still a poor and devastated country, facing war yet again.

[Cat]

Posted by jeb1138

You truly believe that this man, George Bush, is perverted enough to potentially kill thousands of innocent people, including many of his own, because he wants gasoline to be cheaper? I am sorry but I wholeheartedly disagree. Such is murder and is easy for the simplest mind to comprehend. This is a grown man who does comprehend the responsiblity laid upon his shoulders. I do not believe he is so calloused or evil as this.

I do not think Bush is evil, yet I think that the results of the war he is proposing are going to be 'evil'

The former war on Iraq made 200.000 victims among the Iraqis, mostly civilians. Millions of people will flee and be made homeless. A pre-emptive strike against Iraq is against international agreements and can constitute a dangerous precedent. By threatening to go on a solo tour the US are the first and foremost country to make the UN irrelevant. An attack on Iraq in this sense would lessen the importance and influence of international oragnizations and give more power to military strong countries to do what they please. The attack could moreover trigger a spiral of vialence in the Middle-East. As the US had enough of Iraq, Isreal can decide to have had enough of the Palestines and Turkey of the Kurds. Iran could feel threatened by he presence of US military forces. By attacking one nation, a whole culture will be alienated from the west. Terrorism will grow on these seeds of hatred. Oil prices will soar (even more than now) triggering a worldwide crisis in an already unfavorable situation. If the Oil-fields will be set to fire an environmental disaster will follow. Ash from Kuweit was found even in the Himalaya. An attack would not democatize Iraq. Democracy cannot be enforced. It is a long and painful road a population has to walk by itself, aided but not guided.

For all these reasons I think this war is bad. For similar reasons I think war overall is bad.

[Joking:] Since there must be at least as much evil in the cause as in the effect, I think those that propose war, intending to bring about the above effects, are evil themselves. [/Joking]

[pds]

Originally posted by Cat
Posted by jeb1138

The former war on Iraq made 200.000 victims among the Iraqis, mostly civilians. Millions of people will flee and be made homeless.

I guess that's a creative definition of the term victim. I don't mean to dismiss the whole argument, but if it's to be premised on the suffering of the victims, then it should be able to identify them correctly.

The terms under which the Coalition for the Gulf War was cobbled together included that Sadam would not be deposed. That was a condition for several of the Arab states to agree to the war. Therefore the issue of regime change was never allowed to be a military objective. Perhaps there would be less victims if it had.

Yes, after Desert Storm, Iraq was left to fend for itself and the sanctions regime did little to weaken the grip that the tyrant has on his people, but are those 200,000 victims of the war or victims of the peace - or perhaps victims of the recalcitrance of their own corrupt and repressive government?

The excess of victims is a direct result of the "let's let the inspectors take care of this."