Does Britain suck?

[CaptainQuark]

Originally Posted by monktus

...there's a silent majority that are quite happy with it. Of course it's not perfect but I think a lot of people forget how useful EU membership is and that it would be disastrous to leave.

Also, we have "completely" joined the EU, the UK is a full member, we're just not in the Eurozone (which is a shame).

Not just happy with it – positively PRO! We should also be in the Eurozone. In fact, I believe that a "United States of Europe" is the way to go.

[rubaiyat]

Originally Posted by CaptainQuark

In fact, I believe that a "United States of Europe" is the way to go.

That is going to be a much tougher call as the language and cultural divides between European countries is much deeper than say between U.S. States.

Take the Germans and Austrians who speak the same language but pretty well have nothing but contempt for each other.

Ofcourse there is the extreme Europhobia expressed by many British. Not having gone through what the other countries in Europe went though in the years prior, during and after WWII the British can't see the necessity of unity and compromise.

France and Germany are the core, having fought each other repeatedly over the previous 150 years. Netherlands and Belgium also can see the sense because they were trampled on each time their neighbors came to blows. The Eastern block knows one thing, they never want the Russians back and Spain, Portugal and Italy all had a decades long Fascist yoke.

Perhaps too many who object are taking the prosperity the EU brought for granted. Just ask the neighboring non-EU nations they desperately want to come in to sit around the nice warm EU hearth.

To build a European consciousness will take time, helped by some common enemy and more than the Eurovision song contest to bind them.

In the 21st century huge economic blocks such as China/SE Asia, North America and Europe, all under threat from a massively expanding Muslim population with a chip on its shoulder, are truly going to make George Orwell's 1984 prescient in the extreme.

When global warming's consequences strike home there will be a lot of pain and blame going around as well.

Maybe then Britain might finally realise where its interests lie.

[Rhisiart]

Originally Posted by rubaiyat

....take the Germans and Austrians who speak the same language but pretty well have nothing but contempt for each other...

What a difference it would have made to the world 60 years ago if this had been the case.

Originally Posted by rubaiyat

Of course there is the extreme Europhobia expressed by many British. Not having gone through what the other countries in Europe went though in the years prior, during and after WWII the British can't see the necessity of unity and compromise.

This 'Europhobia' is confined to the right wing Brits.

Originally Posted by rubaiyat

France and Germany are the core....

Only because right-wing Britain is just about anti-anyone. The 'Establishment' (i.e Royal Family/the hidden grey suits/Pinochet supporters) refuse to make any effort to try to influence the Franco-German axis.

Originally Posted by rubaiyat

Maybe ..... Britain might finally realise where its interests lie.

It doesn't have a clue. This island state is directionless. Short term wealth is its only raison d'etre.

[MrTAToad]

Not having gone through what the other countries in Europe went though in the years prior, during and after WWII the British can't see the necessity of unity and compromise.

I'm sure WW2 veterans would be happy to hear they didn't go through much...

Just ask the neighboring non-EU nations they desperately want to come in to sit around the nice warm EU hearth.

The Republic Of Ireland are doing well, and they aren't in the EU. It should also be noted that England has a better economy that most of the EU zone countries - making the need to join pretty well moot.

Maybe then Britain might finally realise where its interests lie.

Yes, with Britian...

This 'Europhobia' is confined to the right wing Brits.

Its more extensive than that.

[rubaiyat]

Ireland is not in the EU????

I can see why this debate gets where it does!

Ireland has a huge debt of gratitude to the EU, which largely turned it into a modern success. England also owes its current good economy to Europe as well. You won't get anyone in business to back such a hare-brained scheme as to leave.

You failed to read what I wrote about the Europeans.

It is not about who fought, the Europeans went through the terrible prewar years, the occupation and the destruction of the occupation and reoccupation and recovery afterwards. Some stayed in the clutches of the Soviets for a limited time. Austria got rid of them by the early 50's but only under dire penalties, the rest stayed under their thumb for another 45 years.

England had only to contend with air raids which lightened considerably towards the end of the war during which time most of the rest of Europe was being turned into rubble.

Much of the surviving population of that period in many European countries is made up of widows, many of them in Germany, Austria, Czechoslavakia and Poland endured mass rapes as the Russians advanced.

Finland lost most of its male population of the time, alternately fighting the Russians and then the Germans. They suffered especially badly, as did the Baltic countries of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. Poland was mauled 3 times over, by the Germans coming and going and by the Russians.

Italy was in a total state of ruin. Spain had reached near starvation even though it largely kept out of it.

Most men not fighting were forced labourers for the Germans. Whole countries like Holland were ruined because Germany flooded the place as they left. Other countries like Norway and Poland had nearly every building and infrastructure blown up by the retreating Germans.

They all did it tough. England was relatively unscathed and it was possible to get away from the conflict whilst most Europeans had to live in it. Not to denigrate the effort of the soldiers involved but victory is sweet in contrast to the loss and reoccupation of many countries that meant the war did not end well for most.

Hungary, Czechoslavakia, Greece and Poland fought on for years. Spain and Portugal didn't get rid of their dictators till the 80's. The Eastern block lasted till the 90's. None of them have forgotten as much as the English have, what it all meant.

[monktus]

Originally Posted by MrTAToad

The Republic Of Ireland are doing well, and they aren't in the EU.

If I used smilies I'd look for an incredulous one, I can't believe you're involved in a debate about the EU and come out with stuff like that.

Also, while nobody's doubting the hardship that British cities faced during World War II bombings, and the lives that were lost in combat, we did fare a lot better than most countries involved in the war, especially the likes of Poland. We were also much better off in the following decades.

It's insular attitudes that of the type we're seeing on this thread that are harming the UK, and I'm sorry to say it does seem to be a mainly English attitude. I'm really hoping that May 3 will be the start of some big changes for the UK.

[reed]

Just a thought. United Europe. Why not. But outsourcing and de-localisation to Romania, Bulgaria, and Eastern Europe in general are making French workers (esp. the Unions) very worried, if not angry. Cheaper labor costs, etc.. The bosses are making record profits for investors but people are being chucked out of work here in droves.
Don't forget, the United States is not always so united. We went through a major civil war, segregation and there are still counties where you can't get a drop of booze. In one State they want the 10 Commandments State Law. The list is endless.
Now, Europe with all it's different kinds of cheeses, laws, history, legislations, culture etc. etc. Well.... as Charles de Gaulle once said concerning governing his own country.... "Vaste Programme!"
And Turkey?

I hear The UK is pulling out of Iraq. Good move.

[monktus]

Originally Posted by reed

I hear The UK is pulling out of Iraq. Good move.

Yes, not a moment too soon. As for Turkey, I can't see them joining the EU anytime soon, or at all.