The UK and America

[Giaguara]

Americans can drive 1500 miles and not run to a non-American... unless they go to a burger place, order a coffee, shop at a low-paid chain, or have their home cleaned or their children minded by the undocumented...
And when they drive that 1500 miles and see a Spanish person, from Spain, they keep asking which part of Mexico Spain is in..

[fryke]

It surprises me that this (the whole subject) is surprising you, qion. In the past 7 years, the administration has broken a *lot* of porcelaine. It might take 10-15 years to restore the US' image among "old friends" (you know, that "old Europe" G.W. was talking about).
Usually, when I talk with friends about the state of the US' image, they _do_ see California, New York and Massachusetts as exceptions, btw., and they sure hope the next American president will be a democrat.

To make Americans nervous, I usually tell them that our (Switzerland's) right-most party is about as right-wing as the US Democrats, and that yes, we do have more than one party to the left of our conservatives.

[Qion]

I really appreciate all of your responses, bbloke's in particular; well thought out, as all of your political posts tend to be.

Fryke, I never said I was surprised by any of this. If anything, what surprises me is the sheer indifference to alienation my government seems to feel.

I have a feeling that in this century, we're either going to see the most destructive time in human history, or we're going to see the greatest leap forward in every human paradigm since the Age of Enlightenment. What I feel is that Europe is a bit further ahead than America in this regard, that Switzerland, France, and Britain in particular are trying to move forward rather than deteriorate to war. The "War on Terror" seemed ludicrous to me from the start, but that's a topic for a rainy day.

I guess I was really just searching for some sort of resolution, that there is more hope than negativity. We're a global society in the realest since; borders mean less every year. It's about people, individuals, and I hate that my government forces upon me an image I digress from.

[Rhisiart]

Originally Posted by Qion

We're a global society in the realest since; borders mean less every year. It's about people, individuals, and I hate that my government forces upon me an image I digress from.

Yes, but what is the alternative? Anarchy? We have to have some organization, and the best so far is nation states, however imperfect our nations are.

Indeed, not all of us fit neatly into national stereotypes. I have three identities. I'm Welsh first, British second and European third. I'm also an internationalist who would love nothing more that to see an equitable global society.

Big words I know, but my ethos is to stand for what you are for, not what you are against.

I am intelligent enough to recognize that not all Americans are ultra-Christian fanatics, just as not all Welsh people are English-hating zealots.

Let the stupid let off steam and rant and rave about who they hate. The rest of us can revel in our differences and celebrate them for what they are.

[Qion]

Originally Posted by Rhisiart

Let the stupid let off steam and rant and rave about who they hate. The rest of us can revel in our differences and celebrate them for what they are.

I'm with that.

However, -I apologize for my profound cynicism- what the hell is this world going to do about itself? We've governmental organizations focused primarily on protecting us from ourselves, and if this is truly the case, where does it lead? When our nation states collapse, as is historical fact, what might we do? I do not understand to this day, in this age, with the knowledge, resources, technology, medicines, love, camaraderie, art, design, etc. that we have why we can't live peacefully. Too many people, too many religions, too many radical ideals I suppose. Too many hormones, too many mentals, too many carbon dioxides... whatever. I don't think anarchy would be so terrible; at least with that, we'd figure out exactly where we're heading a hell of a lot quicker.

[Viro]

I'm going to be blunt and say that most people are stupid. They're very easily influenced by what they read in the media and they rarely _ever_ engage the grey matter that God blessed them with.

Take Britain for example. When Gordon Brown took over as Prime Minister over a year ago, I nearly died. Here was someone who was completely useless as Chancellor, completely weak as a person and so bland that he makes bangers and mash look like an exotic meal. Yet for the first 6 months of his premiership, the media fawned over him. And people fawned over him(!!). It's like they suffered severe amnesia and 10 years of Gordon Brown's pathetic Chancellorship was forgotten. Lack of critical thinking.

Then you have President Bush. I think no other subject is as effective in bringing out the nasty side of the British. A typical discourse goes along the lines of...
"Bush is stupid"
"Why do you say that?"
"He's stupid"
"Can you name any specific examples?"
"He invaded Iraq"
"Why is that stupid?"
"It just is"

A slightly more well read person will respond by saying:
"Invading a country is wrong"
"Do you support Western intervention in Darfur?"
"Yes"
"So how do you reconcile that with your opposition to intervention in Iraq?"

An even more well read person will say:
"He ignored the UN and went ahead on his own, setting a dangerous precedent as it undermines the authority of the UN"
"Did you support western intervention in Bosnia?"
"Uh, what? ..."


While George Bush is by no means the perfect president, the majority of people who are critical of him have very little clue themselves. They're doing it because it's what all the "cool kids" do, it's what the columnists in the papers do, etc. Rarely do they ever think critically.

There is a lot about Bush that annoys me. However, there is a lot that he does that truly amazes me. For example, if you care about Fair Trade and poverty in the third world, you will be quite amazed (as I was) to learn what he is trying to do with US farming policy.

Well, that's my 2 pence on the subject.

[Satcomer]

On a lighter note, tell me why I rather prefer UK humor over todays US comedy?

[rubaiyat]

Originally Posted by Qion

I have a feeling that in this century, we're either going to see the most destructive time in human history, or we're going to see the greatest leap forward in every human paradigm since the Age of Enlightenment. What I feel is that Europe is a bit further ahead than America in this regard, that Switzerland, France, and Britain in particular are trying to move forward rather than deteriorate to war. The "War on Terror" seemed ludicrous to me from the start, but that's a topic for a rainy day.

Interesting that your perspective does not include China, the country who will inherit this century .

China's rise to probable economic and military dominance is very much in the mind of the US administration who is finding it hard to let go of the "only Superpower" status, and I think they are making the most of it whilst they still have it.

There are some small signs that China may move away from totalitarianism, probably under the care of younger technocrats, but I can't see how it will escape endemic corruption. In all probability it will be become a larger version of Singapore, delivering prosperity to those who will not buck the system.

As for the division between the secular non-Muslim world and the rest, the problem is one of population. The Moslem populations are exploding whilst the secular non-Muslims are shrinking. This combined with a cultural proclivity to insularity and vengence on perceived slights is giving the Moslems a disproportionate say in the world without actually contributing much positively to it.

The average Muslim is as ignorant of the West and USA as the USA is ignorant of them. This is extremely dangerous as it will lead to even more of the misjudgements of motives and actions than we have already had.

We have had a brief break in the proliferation of nuclear weapons after India, Pakistan and North Korea all broke into the nuclear club. Israel did its break very quietly and so stayed under the radar except in the minds of its enemies.

Step 2 will be Iran and its neighbours. Then we are back on the brink again.

But to get back on subject. America is on the nose because of Bush. America has Bush as leader because Americans seem to be largely ignorant of the world, science, politics and most matters outside their neighbourhood.

Particularly at fault is the American political system which is IMHO corrupt and designed to keep all except the financial elite out of it, hence the extremely low voter turnout.

I have posted before on this and the many measures that can be made to correct the USA democracy but given that most Americans have little to compare it to, let alone see its faults, they have an unswerving belief that everything they are told about being the best democracy in the world is true.