The UK and America

[rubaiyat]

Viro, should we do a "Bush is stupid, because…" thread?

Letterman has been doing something similar for a long time and still hasn't run out of ammunition.

The only thing I will credit Bush for is rat cunning, in the aid of "the right people" such as rich mates, the christian right and people who agree with him because actually working on the hard stuff and really finding out what is going on is for "liberal" wimps.

An insight into his small world view was an interview I saw in which he was asked for a reaction to events in Paris and he appeared slightly confused, then said "Paris, Texas*?"

* Pop 25,898

[Viro]

Originally Posted by rubaiyat

...working on the hard stuff and really finding out what is going on is for "liberal" wimps.

I actually agree with everything you've said, about China, the general perception of the US, etc. Apart from this.

I have seen little to no evidence to back such a claim. There are numerous examples to cite, and I'll give you a few which appear to be a zeitgeist of the liberal mindset in America (so all the usual caveats apply).

1) San Francisco + Code Pink vs USMC + US Navy. Many of the liberals in this very liberal city equate Marines as Bush's hitmen, baby killers, murderers, etc. They campaign really hard to have recruitment centres shut down, fleet day cancelled, etc. Yet these very same people castigate the US government for not sending in troops to Sudan ... Interesting worldview, if I might say so.

2) Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW). This appears to be the latest fad that preoccupies the liberal elite, and any one who dares to question the validity of AGW is immediately branded a right wing, Christian fundamentalist who hates science. This conveniently ignores the hundreds of scientific papers and scientists who disagree with the premise of AGW. To make matters even worse, the great Al Gore, patron saint of the church of AGW doesn't appear to believe the church's tenets. How else do you explain his household consuming 10x more electricity than the national average while he claims that humanity is on the brink of destruction?

3) World poverty. Campaigning for Fair Trade, buying Fair Trade goods, etc are all good things to do. However, liberals generally support the Dems. San Fran liberals love Pelosi. The Dems (particularly Pelosi) push for higher subsidies to American farmers, many who are experiencing record yields (!!). This in turn leads to an overproduction of goods, which then flood the markets, which then lower the price for producers everywhere else in the world. In 2006, it is estimated $2.6 billion was generated for third world growers through Fair Trade produce. On the other hand, these subsidies to US farmers cost the third world producers $24 billion annually (!!!). Guess what keeps this bill alive? Bush is doing his best to take down this bill as it goes through Congress.


The problem with the whole Bush is Stupid thing, is that it hinges on comments and ad hominem attacks on G. W. Bush. I agree that it's great fun and he just presents such a juicy target

But if you do like what Obama says and actually engage with the issues, Bush demonstrates some very astute political acumen. In fact, I dare say he demonstrates some cojones. Working on the "hard stuff" is rarely ever done by the "liberals".

[Qion]

Rubaiyat... maybe I took your posting a bit too personally, but I have the feeling you think I'm ignorant of what I'm talking about. I do not, as you describe, leave China out of my "perspective". If anything, I was giving three countries a compliment. China isn't exactly the role model of progressivism, you know what I mean?

We do have publications here in America, and every once in a while between pandering to what Bush tells me to think, I'll read one. Bokay? I've never been hugely intrigued by politics, and I've never pursued a degree in political science, but I keep myself as informed and up to date as any world-knowing Brit might.

I'll agree that it seems like a lot of Americans are ignorant of what's happening in the world, but honestly man do you believe what you're saying? We have millions upon millions of forward-thinking individuals in America. We're not our government. The established system is the issue here, not the sheer ignorance of our population. I believe the same negative ideas you have about the American people could quite easily be related back to most other countries as well. It's a tad pomp, honestly, for you to generalize so boldly that "most" of us think we're the greatest country in the world! That's an idea for centenarians! The century old self-righteous patriotic bullshit is all but left to the deep south and bits of the quickly shrinking blue collar middle class. If you notice, Bush isn't hugely adored by his people; there are a lot of reasons he's still in office, but public opinion isn't one of them.

[rubaiyat]

Viro,

Hypocrisy has many bedmates. I've been in many good causes where I sincerely cringe at the ignorance and plain absurd thinking of my co-espousers, but that's humanity. 50% below the average IQ.

Global Warming is beyond a fad and only those so wrapped up in themselves and their lifestyle, that they don't want to hear "unpleasantness", deny it. No matter how many (and they aren't many) poodle scientists you might like to quote.

I am very aware of what you are saying about World poverty. Sadly both the Republican and Democrat policies are damaging to free world trade. You cite the Democrats but the Mid West corn belt and Cuban sugar barons have done very well out of Bush and tossed a nice fat tip back into Bush's coffers as a thank you.

Bush is not exactly stupid, but I have heard his IQ has been assessed at about 127 which puts him pretty low down by my standards and particularly Presidential standards.

The problem is a lot of Americans seem to take him as a Joe Average and not one of those snooty intellectuals like Gore. They ignore his unaverage family wealth that got him where he is today, because even if he did get it by devious means from the Saudis, money is God in the states (The Father, the Son and the Holy Cash).

Maybe Paris Hilton should run for president, everyone admires her wealth and likes looking down on her smarts as well.

It seems your definition of the "hard stuff" is the problem here. Global Warming, Health, Education, Commercial & Political Corruption don't appear to make the cut.

[rubaiyat]

Qion,

Just look around you. What is in your news, what happens to dissenters, how does your Supreme Court allow Bush to casually dismiss long standing constitutional standards and international treaty agreements? How many absurd ideas can the average American cling to without anyone noticing?

Yes there are plenty of intelligent thoughtful Americans who I admire immensely. I just wish the rest of the Americans, who bother to vote, did also. Unfortunately it has been a while since we have seen Americans who genuinely espouse the cause of liberty and justice for all, without using it as a cover for personal gain at the expense of those less fortunate than themselves.

Flag waving and cartoon caricatures of foreigners are dragging America into its current morass. It has taken nearly 2 whole terms and a trillion dollars down the drain and a heck of a lot of lives for the Public to wake up to what seemed bleeding obvious to the world 7 years ago.

Principally what is obvious to the world is that the States does not see itself as part of the same globe.

Weirdly I have noticed 2 contrary notions in many Americans I have talked to: that the world really loves America (Iraqis will welcome us with open arms) and that the world really hates America (they are shooting at us!). The part they don't get is the discussions they think they are having with everyone else is just conversations with themselves, where they ignore everything everyone else says.

[Qion]

Originally Posted by rubaiyat

Qion,

Just look around you. What is in your news, what happens to dissenters, how does your Supreme Court allow Bush to casually dismiss long standing constitutional standards and international treaty agreements? How many absurd ideas can the average American cling to without anyone noticing?

Yes there are plenty of intelligent thoughtful Americans who I admire immensely. I just wish the rest of the Americans, who bother to vote, did also. Unfortunately it has been a while since we have seen Americans who genuinely espouse the cause of liberty and justice for all, without using it as a cover for personal gain at the expense of those less fortunate than themselves.

Flag waving and cartoon caricatures of foreigners are dragging America into its current morass. It has taken nearly 2 whole terms and a trillion dollars down the drain and a heck of a lot of lives for the Public to wake up to what seemed bleeding obvious to the world 7 years ago.

Principally what is obvious to the world is that the States does not see itself as part of the same globe.

Weirdly I have noticed 2 contrary notions in many Americans I have talked to: that the world really loves America (Iraqis will welcome us with open arms) and that the world really hates America (they are shooting at us!). The part they don't get is the discussions they think they are having with everyone else is just conversations with themselves, where they ignore everything everyone else says.

Interestingly enough, I've planned my move out of America for a couple years now. I've been researching industrial arts opportunities abroad so that I might escape all the hells of the American system to a saner state.

I agree with you, I honestly do. I, however, do not wish ill on the entire face of the American people, and I may go a bit far to protect myself and people like myself from what Bush and the lower 50% have done.

[rubaiyat]

There was a debate along very similar lines in the NY Times forum recently. Interestingly many Americans who lived abroad chimed in and it seemed the longer the exposure to the outside world the wider the eyes were opened.

I hope you do make it O.S.

Sadly not enough Americans do, due to your extremely short annual vacations.

[Rhisiart]

Originally Posted by rubaiyat

....Bush is not exactly stupid, but I have heard his IQ has been assessed at about 127 which puts him pretty low down by my standards...

Hey that's my IQ score!

I don't think Bush is stupid. I think he's canny and smart, with a very dry sense of humour. It's his policies (and that of his cronies) that I despair over, not him as an individual.

It's like Maggie Thatcher. Her polices sucked big time, but you had to admire her for her fortitude. In fact in his early days, Churchill had some pretty repulsive attitudes to the British working class and British colonial subjects.

Newt Ginrich was once asked who was a better president; Reagan or Carter. Reagan he replied. He wasn't as wholesome as Carter, but Reagan knew what he didn't know. Carter simply didn't know what he didn't know. And this is a very serious flaw in a leader.

I suspect Dubya is more like Reagan. He knows what he is doing, unfortunately to most people's disdain.