Former VP Al Gore on Apple board of directors

[bolindilly]

Do you care about this country? Do you care about your fellow citizens? Is that $.06 per dollar earned to high a price for the health of the United States? Are your self interests that much more important then our collective interests?

...As a small business owner I would love to see people both back at work and feeling comfortable that they are going to still have a job a month from now. People spend when they feel that they are in a good position. When jobs are being cut and government services are disappearing at the same time to help those people if they do need them, people don't spend money.

RacerX, that is the most socialist thing i've ever heard. i guess the government should just control the economy and force companies to pay for jobs they don't need right now. heck, the government should just nationalize all industry and make the minimum wage $40, and then everybody would pull in $80,000 a year, no?

and the thing that's even funnier, you're whining about unemployment, but the tax cut to business owners is what creates employment. it's that simple. giving money to joe shmoe won't get him a job, but giving money to his potential boss will make the boss want to hire more people...

c'mon...

"who is john galt?": that phrase has gotten dated. what i wanna know is: "where is john galt?"

[serpicolugnut]

Name calling? Hardly. A certain moderator got a little trigger happy with a non-lethal insult. But I am back again to further highlight your communist ways...

Further you are saying that it was not a good thing to help out North Korea (at South Korea's request) even though that has not turned out nearly as bad.

Sending humanitarian aid to N. Korea was one thing. Giving them the means to achieve nuclear weapons is another. Clinton allowed US companies to work with the N. Koreans to put in to production a 5MW reactor. The defense dept. told him a reactor this size would be of little to no benefit in producing electricity, but it would give them the means to develop the spent fuel rods in to nuclear weapons. At the behest of Jimmy Carter, he went ahead with the deal.

We all know about Clinton and the Chinese, but if you need a refresher, let me know.

Even if we assume that Clinton could have done something, that doesn't mean Bush should have done nothing.

No need to assume, we know Clinton did nothing. Former Clinton presidential advisor Dick Morris has stated that Clinton, at odds with the Pentagon, would not put serious resources in to attacking Al Qaeda because he thought it wouldn't resonate with the American public.

We know that the Sudan, acting through their liason Monsoor Ijaz, offered Clinton bin Laden - no strings attached. Clinton declined!

On to your assertion that Bush didn't do anything about Al Qaeda. You are right. The man had been in office about 8 months, had his transition seriously delayed due to the Florida 2000 debacle and Clinton not turning over the transition resources until well in to Dec, and he didn't automatically go in and invade Afghanistan. Yeah, the communist peace niks who are marching now and can't see the righteousness of libertaing Iraq would have really loved that.

While I'm not making excuses for Bush, the fact remains that Clinton had 7 years to seriously pursue Al Qaeda, and instead spent more resources on attacking the Branch Davidians than he did Al Qaeda.

I'll give Clinton credit though - he didn't waste his time with the UN when it came to Kosovo. I'm still not really sure where our national interests were in that conflict, but the peaceniks must have felt it was a just war. After all, there weren't any protests during that conflict.

Yours, and other anti-Iraq libertation supporters, colors are quite easy to read. You hate Bush. Plain and simple. The man speaks plainly, is wildly popular, and keeps out-foxing the opposition at every turn. I thought my disdain for Clinton was bad, but man - you Bush haters have me beat by a mile.

Come next week at this time, Iraq will be liberated, and the people of that country will be externally grateful. The stock market will have risen another 500-750 points (it's already risen close to 1000 in 8 days - the biggest 8 day jump in 20 years), oil prices will be in the low-30's a barrel and dropping, and Bush's popularlty will have surged another 10 pts. to around 80%. God - it must make you sick. (But, hey I'm a realist and realize that his reelection is still very much in doubt).

Also, please name the close friends of Gore of which you speak.

http://www.uiuc.edu/ro/observer/arch...e2/obiter.html

This is just one source. Hit google and find many others...

Most Americans have to make do with far less. But you don't care about other Americans.

Ah, but I do. You socialists love to to bandy about this class warfare. Where in the constitution does it say that the Government has the right to rob Peter to pay Paul? It doesn't. Income redistribution is one of man's most evil concepts. Republicans are quite guilty of this too. But it's the Democrats who act like they are entitled to it, and constantly wage class warfare to state their case. Luckily, I believe most Americans see through this now. Hell, it's easy to buy in to it. When I was 22, I bought it hook, line and sinker. I even <gasp>voted for Clinton in 1992</gasp>. So what happened? Well, as I started to become more successful and make more money, I realized how much more of the it the gov't takes. The dems constantly cite rich people who will get a disproportionate amount back. But they consider someone who makes $75K a rich person! It's amazing.

But since you are such a compassionate person, and feel you aren't taxed enough, why don't you send some of your money my way? We could really use it right now, and you seem to have some guilt built up, so send it my way. I'll be sure to put it to good use.

[edX]

Originally posted by serpicolugnut
Name calling? Hardly. A certain moderator got a little trigger happy with a non-lethal insult. But I am back again to further highlight your communist ways...

... Yeah, the communist peace niks who are marching now and can't see the righteousness of libertaing Iraq would have really loved that.

.. the peaceniks...
... You socialists love to to bandy about this class warfare.

you seem to really like calling names and labeling people. i wish you would just learn to get them right and to understand a bit of what they mean since you seem to throw them about as if they were insults. people who subscribe to these philosophies would obviously not get dinner invitations from you.

1st - i am an Administrator, not a moderator. i put that little description under my name to make it easy for you to distinguish. and continue to call anyone an idiot an you'll be moving your free speech somewhere else.

2nd - communism and socialism are 2 different things. one cannot be both. so why don't you toss a coin and decide which one to use for some consistency at least.

you should be aware that these are economic systems, not forms of govt. - just like capitolism. very few pure forms of these exist. america is not a true capitolistic system, although i'm sure you would like it that way. we are a very socialized form of capitolism. Chances are that if we weren't, we would have been defeated by civil war between the haves and have nots long ago. the decison to move that direction has been the choice of our people and their elected leaders. that was done under a govt system known as a republic which uses democratic processes.

Where in the constitution does it say that the Government has the right to rob Peter to pay Paul? It doesn't.

well, what it says is that ther will be no taxation without representation. since the system of economics we have chosen is predominantly captiolististic, it stands to follow that there will always be more have nots than haves. thus there are more of them being represented.

Income redistribution is one of man's most evil concepts.

LOL war is evil. torture and oppression are evil. i'd like to know how making sure everybody got enough to eat and proper medical care got to be evil.

gee, with people who think like you in the world, i can't imagine how Robin Hood ever got to be so popular of a story

Luckily, I believe most Americans see through this now. Hell, it's easy to buy in to it. When I was 22, I bought it hook, line and sinker. ....So what happened? Well, as I started to become more successful and make more money, I realized how much more of the it the gov't takes. The dems constantly cite rich people who will get a disproportionate amount back. But they consider someone who makes $75K a rich person! It's amazing.

actually , i think most americans still live under the dellusion that they can make the american dream come true. look at you. you got just a little taste of it and now you're ruthless in the pursuit of it. hope you enjoy every bit of you manage to grab.

But since you are such a compassionate person, and feel you aren't taxed enough, why don't you send some of your money my way? We could really use it right now, and you seem to have some guilt built up, so send it my way. I'll be sure to put it to good use.

so, are you saying here that you aren't compassionate? sure sounds like that's what you want to communicate. but it sounds like you neither want nor give charity. charity isn't about being forced to give. it's about doing so because of your concern for others. it's about humanity.

btw - from your rhetoric - i would picture you as an 70-80 yo man with close ties to Jerry Falwell.

[bolindilly]

edx: read "atlas shrugged," it explains very well how evil robin hood is:
"rob the rich to feed the poor." i don't even want to get into how unjust that is.

and your whole income redistribution and free medical care thing: any system of income redistribution ensures that people go hungry and ensures that medical care is terrible. in canada, sure, everyone has health care, but look at the quality. the point is, in your whole crusade for the working man to make sure he eats, you wage war on the productive, the man that actually produces the food, the man that actually provides the medical care. if you rob the rich to feed and treat the poor, the rich won't want to do it anymore. let those who know how to create wealth create it, and everybody will be richer, more full, and healthier in the process...

oh, and:

charity isn't about being forced to give. it's about doing so because of your concern for others. it's about humanity.

if that's true, why force income redistribution on people? if you don't want to force anyone, why not let people decide how much charity to give? why tax the rich more (percentage-wise) than the poor if, in your own words, they shouldn't be forced to pay?

[edX]

greed

[Ugg]

The founding fathers were adamant that the US not be like England and France, where titles, government postitions, property and wealth were passed down from father to son. Therefore, they created an inheritance tax so that this wealth would be "partially" redistributed.

We could spend hours debating the validity of how it is being redistributed today, but if we look back in history we see some pretty amazing effects.

Compulsory free education allowed many of the working class immigrants a chance out of the poverty they were forced into by the Industrial Revolution. Social Security brought hundreds of thousands of elderly Americans out of the poorhouse. The Eisenhower Interstate system did more to break the monopoly of the railroad and lower transportation costs than the Supreme Court ever could. The GI bill was without a doubt the greatest social equalizer of the last century.

So rather than say that you don't want to pay taxes, why don't you say what you don't want to pay for. All income redistribution is not bad.

[serpicolugnut]

btw - from your rhetoric - i would picture you as an 70-80 yo man with close ties to Jerry Falwell.

Nice attempt at name calling EdX. I prefer the direct approach. But I'm sorry to disappoint. 32 year old handsome young atheist here. From your age, rhetoric and geographic location, I would picture you as an aging "no-nukes" hippie with a picture of Karl Marx hanging above your bed. Who knows. Maybe I'm wrong.

communism and socialism are 2 different things. one cannot be both. so why don't you toss a coin and decide which one to use for some consistency at least.

From the statement Mr. X made, it was impossible to determine which of the above philosophies he subscribed to. But both have at their heart the collectivist ideology that he espoused. Obviously they are two different things. Did I say they weren't?

gee, with people who think like you in the world, i can't imagine how Robin Hood ever got to be so popular of a story

And with people like you, it's no wonder "the Little Red Hen" (the childrens story) got to be so popular. Touche.

i think most americans still live under the dellusion that they can make the american dream come true. look at you. you got just a little taste of it and now you're ruthless in the pursuit of it. hope you enjoy every bit of you manage to grab.

The DELLUSION? Hello, the American dream is alive and well brotha. The only problem is most Americans are too fat, lazy and apathetic to realize it. They'd rather blame their ills on someone else, instead of their own bad decisions they've made in life. The ironic part is that the largest segment of the US population who still believe in the American dream are immigrants who have come here from under priviliged countries. They have no problem working 60 hours a week in pursuit of the American dream.

All I'm hearing from you and Mr. X is how bad America is, how bad Bush is, how it's so bad that we don't pay enough taxes to take care of our poor. And then you have the gaul to accuse me (and others here) of being greedy and uncompassionate because we feel we deserve a tax cut. Nice attitude.

You know, this whole thread started over the topic of Al Gore joining Apple's board. This thread (and the deep divisiveness it's exhibited) makes it pretty clear that it's going to create some real animosity.

[edX]

Originally posted by serpicolugnut
Nice attempt at name calling EdX. I prefer the direct approach. But I'm sorry to disappoint. 32 year old handsome young atheist here. From your age, rhetoric and geographic location, I would picture you as an aging "no-nukes" hippie with a picture of Karl Marx hanging above your bed. Who knows. Maybe I'm wrong.

i just said you sound like that from the words you choose. i don't think describing what you appear to be, as being any different than your attempts to label people based upon beliefs. at least i didn't pressume that what was what you are. btw - i'm not a hippie. i feel more comfortable in an armani suit than tie dyes and jeans, but i own both. i don't espouse marxism nor admire him. i'm more of a Jungian. I actually have a sword hanging over my bed. but i do subscribe to "no nukes".

From the statement Mr. X made, it was impossible to determine which of the above philosophies he subscribed to. But both have at their heart the collectivist ideology that he espoused. Obviously they are two different things. Did I say they weren't?

well, then why not just use collectivist. again i'll point out that you mean to demean people who subscribe to any type of collectivist philosopie by using these terms in the way you do. actually, RacerX has espoused no communistic nor socialist philosophies. Communism would presume that there is no one with any more than anyone else to take from and give to. Socialism attempts to create that system from a pre-existing embalance with the recognition that some people do suffer more hard ships than others in a specialized industrial society. he is actually just in line with what has been american economics since you were born - a socialized form of capitalism. i would be the last to argue that it doesn't need work, but the first to say we shouldn't revert to some reactionary pure form of capitalism.

And with people like you, it's no wonder "the Little Red Hen" (the childrens story) got to be so popular. Touche.

this is a popular story? you'll have to excuse my ignorance, i've honestly never heard of it i don't think. was this a recent book?


[quote]The DELLUSION? Hello, the American dream is alive and well brotha. The only problem is most Americans are too fat, lazy and apathetic to realize it. They'd rather blame their ills on someone else, instead of their own bad decisions they've made in life. The ironic part is that the largest segment of the US population who still believe in the American dream are immigrants who have come here from under priviliged countries. They have no problem working 60 hours a week in pursuit of the American dream.[quote]

well, we're in agreement on the state of the average american at least. i don't think working 60 hrs a week is really part of the american dream. one does need time to enjoy what one brings to oneself. the fact is that only a small number of people will ever climb economically. some will fall down, others will rise, but the pyramid of wealth will stay constant. the system is designed to ensure it.

All I'm hearing from you and Mr. X is how bad America is, how bad Bush is, how it's so bad that we don't pay enough taxes to take care of our poor. And then you have the gaul to accuse me (and others here) of being greedy and uncompassionate because we feel we deserve a tax cut. Nice attitude.

well, if you make 80k a year in atlanta, you certainly don't need a break. if you're really concerned about not wanting to get so much that you gain little, then get yourself a good accountant and figure out how much you should ceiling your income at. then take the rest of the year off after you've made it. there are americans who do this you know. as for greed, i was answering someone else's question as to why voluntary and unsupervised redistribution of wealth won't work. if you felt that was meant for you personally, then you might want to look at why. and well, about the compassion thing, you made it sound like being compassionate was somebody else's job and that just hits a few of my buttons. still, i didn't accuse - i asked if that was what you meant. oh, and i think this arguement started when RacerX and others tryed to point out the things we like about Al Gore and the America he represents - which is the majority of individuals, even if it's not the majority of electoral votes.

You know, this whole thread started over the topic of Al Gore joining Apple's board. This thread (and the deep divisiveness it's exhibited) makes it pretty clear that it's going to create some real animosity.

perhaps this is another way we differ. i respect your right to disagree with me, and with anyone else for that matter. hell, i wouldn't have a sounding board for presenting my side if someone like you didn't provide it. as far as i'm concerned this is just a discussion in a thread. i'll still be willing to help you with your next issue with os x without even considering any of this. any issues we bring up here are decided at the polls or in real life by others. all you and i have are our opinions (well, ok, you've got $80,000 that i don't ) and we should respect our mutual rights to them. that is part of freedom and american values, is it not?

actually you sound a lot like my dad and my stepdad. and i love them both dearly.