Former VP Al Gore on Apple board of directors

[nickn]

To add to things taht make me sick...how about this link :

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Northeast...or.somalia.ap/

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,82532,00.html

And I posted both links so you saw it from what is considered both liberal and conservative media...(at least by most..)

[RacerX]

by serpicolugnut:
be suspicious when a politician demonizes a certain segment of the population for their political gain

Actually you should be suspicious of anyone who demonizes anyone else. To date, serpicolugnut is the only person to engage in personal attacks within this discussion. This should not be a surprise as he has had a hard time making his facts (or predictions) hold water.

You think that people displaying their national pride makes you sick.

and

It's funny how anti-war protests can be some of the most violent displays of freedom of speech...

I'm not one of those people so I can't speak on their actions. On the other hand your actions within the confines of this forum qualify not as national pride but of venomous anger and hate. Again, it should be noted who is the only person to engage in personal attacks.

But, let's learn from history for a moment, and since you are fond of using Germany, lets use them as an example. In the 1930's, Germany was involved in all the acts you stated. They were invading neighbors, and spreading through Europe quite fast. However, some appeasers, namely Neville Chamberlain thought he could make a deal with them and spare the UK. Stalin thought he could make a deal with them and avoid direct conflict. Hitler renigged on both of those deals and the rest is history.

Germany was not a contained state, Iraq was. Libya, a state which is known to have terrorist links is a contained state and has been for quite some time. Why hasn't Bush finished what Reagan started with Libya? Why are we not working towards regime change there? Iraq is not the threat that Germany was.

My favorite quote from Albert Einstein...
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.

As we are back to the point about how much you make, it is not hard for me to understand why someone who's family income is within the top 25% of US house holds would feel as you do.

I got an idea! Why don't you stop using the things which your tax dollars pay for as a protest to the massive amounts of taxation which you seem to be burden with. You know, streets and roads, police and fire departments, schools and libraries, etc. Why even the internet in the US was built mainly on US government funds paid for by your tax dollars.

If you are unwilling to pay for the privileges of being part of this country, stop pretending to have any pride in it.

[edX]

Originally posted by serpicolugnut
Nearly 50% of Iraq has been liberated. We've not taken Baghdad or Basra yet, but we've advanced more in a week than any other army ever has.

so far the advancement has been across miles of open desert. we've 'liberated' people who aren't close enough to anything else to be oppressed. in the process we've even attacked innocent farmers and killed them. in other words we've taken what saddam has given. we've found it a bit tougher where he deploys troops to oppose us.

As for the stock market, well all it takes is one piece of news good or bad, and it surges 200-300 points. It's at approx 8150 now, up about 650 points from when the war stated. It could dip again, but when all is said and done, it will be back in the 9000's.

i agree with this for the most part. the market is going to flucuate. but in general it seems to be creeping down, not up. i am hopeful that it will rebound as well, but certainly more time is needed to grasp what influence any of this has.

Oil prices translate directly into Gas Prices. They started going up before the war on fears that it could affect the US supply. It started dropping right after the war began because OPEC pledged to increase production during the war.

funny, prices at the pump briefly dropped for a few days and now they are back up to the max they have been in my area. $2.22 at the cheap places for regular unleaded. YIKES!!

You think that people displaying their national pride makes you sick. I'll tell you what makes me sick:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,82395,00.html
http://www.whittierdailynews.com/Sto...234836,00.html

It's funny how anti-war protests can be some of the most violent displays of freedom of speech...

i actually agree with you here. these people are an embarassement to the concept of peace. i don't think many of them have a strong grasp on exactly what it is they are supposed to be standing for. most are simply youth getting swept up in alot of mixed emotions. i'd just as soon they stayed at home.

on the other hand, judging all who protest for peace upon these examles is very unfair. i would never judge all our soldiers based upon comments from a few that they are excited about getting to go to war and kill some 'camel jockeys'. i know that most of our soldiers have more sense of humanity than this.

Nice attempt at comparing the present US admin. to that of Germany between WWI and II. I love it when people twist history to fit their agenda. Please, tell me - where we have stated we hate the Iraqi people? Please tell me where we have stated our superiority over the Iraqi people? Please tell me where we have rounded up Iraqis and sent them to concentration camps? We haven't, and your comparison is full of liberal hot air.

why is that whenever anyone mentions specific parralels between bush/america and hitler/germany, that the only defense is to bring in other examples that don't correlate. if i were to draw parralels between apples and oranges and why they are both fruits, would you argue that they can't be fruits because one is red and the other orange, one has a smooth eatable skin and the other a rough, peelable skin?

But, let's learn from history for a moment, and since you are fond of using Germany, lets use them as an example. In the 1930's, Germany was involved in all the acts you stated. They were invading neighbors, and spreading through Europe quite fast. However, some appeasers, namely Neville Chamberlain thought he could make a deal with them and spare the UK. Stalin thought he could make a deal with them and avoid direct conflict. Hitler renigged on both of those deals and the rest is history.

just exactly where is iraq spreading to? last time they tried that, they got their fannies whooped. stopping the spread of aggresion is an entirely different animal than we are dealing with here. and unfortunately, it is Bush who is doing all the renigging on deals that have been made with other countries. no doubt that the future will eventually become an important lesson in history as well.

After the war, even Neville Chamerblain himself admitted he was wrong, and should have addressed the Hitler threat before it got to big.

Once again, my favorite quote from Albert Einstein...
The World is not dangerous because of those who do harm but because of those who look at it without doing anything.

i really don't think that nayone is disputing this. it's just that we believe there is still plenty to be done short of war.

And finally, arden...
It's no surprise you are 18 and would've voted for Gore had you been old enough. When I was 22 I voted for Clinton. I thought I knew everything, as you probably do too (I didn't), and his class warfare speeches rang loudly in my just over minimum wage life. The funny thing is, as I became older, and more successful, and started making more money - I realized the "evil rich people" they were referring to was me - even though in my eyes I was hardly rich. Take my advice -be suspicious when a politician demonizes a certain segment of the population for their political gain (as Hitler did with the Jews, Democrats do with people who make more than $35K/year).

i don't think anyone considers you and your 80k income to be part of the 'evil rich'. i certainly look forward to making something close to that when i get thru with school. democrats aren't just those living in poverty. personally i don't believe much in the concept of 'evil' and thus find it frightening when anyone attempts to do anything under the banner of fighting it. if there is evil - war is a manifestation of it. but we can fight our enemies in many ways without making it about morality. morality is always relative to oneself.

[edX]

oh, nickn - that stuff makes me sick as well. i don't care which side of this anyone is on - wanting people to die is very wrong in my mind. i don't want our soldiers to die. i don't want them to be victims of Bush's agenda nor of the hate it is inspiring for us in people's around the world. it's all just sad.

[serpicolugnut]

Strong words to bandy about RacerX... But I've never said I hated anyone, nor do I. I have much love and empathy for everyone here, especially politically misguided souls such as yourself.

funny, prices at the pump briefly dropped for a few days and now they are back up to the max they have been in my area. $2.22 at the cheap places for regular unleaded. YIKES!!

Here in NE Georgia... The day before the war started gas was $1.58/gallon for unleaded. Today, it's $1.38/gallon for unleaded. I'm sure this will only enforce the uninformed opinion that this war is only for oil somehow...

To answer Ed:

so far the advancement has been across miles of open desert. we've 'liberated' people who aren't close enough to anything else to be oppressed. in the process we've even attacked innocent farmers and killed them. in other words we've taken what saddam has given. we've found it a bit tougher where he deploys troops to oppose us.

Actually, several smaller cities like Um Qasar have been liberated. As for it being tougher where troops are deployed, that's false. When matched up with their troops, our troops are cutting through them pretty easily. When matched up against the Fedayeen Saddam, who fake surrenders, and use innocent children as human shields, then the fight is much harder. But that's only because our troops are following an edict of liberation, and not of conquest. If conquest was the goal, we'd level all of Baghdad in an hour with a few MOABs. That's not the goal, and it's going to take longer to achieve than most people, even myself, thought at first. Doesn't change the inevitable in any way shape or form.

just exactly where is iraq spreading to? last time they tried that, they got their fannies whooped. stopping the spread of aggresion is an entirely different animal than we are dealing with here. and unfortunately, it is Bush who is doing all the renigging on deals that have been made with other countries. no doubt that the future will eventually become an important lesson in history as well.

Iraq doesn't have to invade another country now to wreak havoc on them. Through their direct connection to terrorist groups (Al Qaeda and others), all they have to do is supply these thugs with the WMD we know they have, and we could have Sept. 11 on a much grander scale.

personally i don't believe much in the concept of 'evil' and thus find it frightening when anyone attempts to do anything under the banner of fighting it.

I guess that goes to the heart of position. Hitler. Genghis Kahn. Pol Pot. Stalin. Sept. 11 hijackers. These people don't qualify as evil to you?

Why hasn't Bush finished what Reagan started with Libya? Why are we not working towards regime change there? Iraq is not the threat that Germany was.

Because Reagan finished the job with Libya. After Reagan put out an assasination attempt on Khadafi, and his daughter was killed in the assult, Khadfi was neutralized as a threat. We haven't had any problems with him since then.

My favorite quote from Albert Einstein...
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.

Good quote, and actually it's true. Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieve through understanding...understanding that if you set out to provoke us, you're going to get your ass kicked. Peace can only be achieved when victory has been achieved. This is why we will never have peace in Israel until either Israelies/Palestinians have a decisive victory over the other. This is why we never would have had peace in Europe in the 40's had Hitler not been stopped. Your problem is you look at peace as this utopian state. I look at peace through the eyes of reality, in that the world is full of evil that will from time to time threaten that peace, and the only way to get it back is through war and victory. I wish that man was sophisticated enough to find a way to achieve that utopian state of yours, but here, in 2003, he is not.

If you are unwilling to pay for the privileges of being part of this country, stop pretending to have any pride in it.

Nice assumption, RacerX. Show me where I've said I'm unwilling to pay for privileges of being part of this country (roads, fire stations, military, etc). You can't because I haven't. Just because I'm against the level I'm being taxed doesn't mean that I believe in no taxation. Taxes are a necessary evil to be sure. But when that taxation reaches close to 50%, we are no longer talking about paying for some privileges... we are talking about state sponsored slavery.

Also, please get your facts right when you quote stats I've thrown out. My "$80K income", is actually for a family of 3, as I've stated. That's also before taxes. While $80/year might be alot for a family of 3 in some areas of the country, here in the Atlanta area, it is not.

RacerX...tell me sir, how have I demonized you? You made some statements that reflected your collectivist views, and I simply made a reference to it, while also apologizing if you were not in fact a collectivst. That's hardly demonizing.

[chevy]

Originally posted by serpicolugnut
...
Good quote, and actually it's true. Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieve through understanding...understanding that if you set out to provoke us, you're going to get your ass kicked. ...

What are we speaking about ? Children playing in the field and being too noisy ? Monsters in a video game ? This is ok to "kick ass".

War is not a video game. They are human beings below the bombs, in front of the bullets. And they suffer, they die. Soldiers (both sides, and civilians, and local observers) do not sit in front of the TV watching CNN. They are not virtual models.
It is not a happy kick-assing session.

One can discuss the reasons for that war. One can have reasons to think we have to do or not to do it. But war is not a kick-ass party !

[nickn]

Nobody wants war, however, as much as you'd (anyone who opposes war) would like to believe, sometimes it's needed. That's as much as I wish to comment on it,.

[serpicolugnut]

No one said it was a "happy kick-assing session". Please do not inflame the discussion by throwing out mis-quotes.

Yes, war is not a video game. It is not a reality tv show. People die, innocent and not so innocent. We know this. Nobody has stated otherwise, so to post as if someone did is complete disengenous. If you can't argue with facts, please don't bother arguing at all.