Jeff, i guess we just experience it different. I normally come out of these discussions feeling like i know a lot more about the other person and having a closer relationship with them. In fact, take our relationship for example. We argued for weeks about mozilla and it got pretty hairy for me at times with everybody ganging up on me. But almost everyone that participated in that discussion are people i feel closer to and better about now. I would condier you and kilowatt and vanguard online buddies now. I certainly like you more than when we started that. same with MDLarson and Bernie and plenty of others who have had disagreements with myself and others. the ones that back off and don't let us learn anything about them are the ones who quickly fade into the past and seem not to be a part of the site anymore. I think Vic has shown he is here to stay. and frankly, i really have been excited to see him type these long posts and open up. I didn't know his dad was from Romania, did you?