You gotta be kidding

[AdmiralAK]

OK, I have seen this post evolve and I wanted to reply to some points
that were raised unfortunatelly I as beat to some of em :P lol
So here is what I have to say to Technocall.

OS X was easy to learn. All you need to know is there, on the desktop and in the menu!
Apps, home, favorites, preferanmces, internet adn even a stupid music player to entertain you while you work.

You say that you can't get these people to even go to the chooser... well I am amazed that these
people have actually learned to do what they do fo a living since learning the 1,2,3s of an OS is quite simple. Learning the OS is towards THEIR advantage because they become more productive thus making more $$$ as you put it.

The old MacOS is nice, I grant you that, BUT the new on, X, is better, and you can be more productive with it. Why wouldn't people want to learn it ? In my opinion two reasons.

1) Your artists are a bunch of idiots that would not know a good thing if it came from behind at break neck speed and lodged itseld up their @$$es, and they expect everything to be handed down to them by a subserviant admin.

or

2) They would be interested in learning the new OS, but an admin that feels that has all the power is keeping them back and scaring them with terms suchs as uuuuunniiiiixxxxxx and multiple users.....

Make your and their job easier man. MacOS X is easy, and customizable. And if you are a windoze person lemme ask you this, when MS made the leap from windows 3.11 to windows 9x did you also whine and say "ooohh this is tooo tuff boohoohooo, this ok productivity, this of the $$$$ booohooohooo" ???


Admiral

[techoncall]

Yes i believe Apple needs to embrace OSX and continue to move forward,at the same time it needs to understand the users and the depth of which users get involved.
I have no quarrels with OSX myself an experienced seasoned user.

As an admid let me explore my day with you,we are a mac shop,we have an installed base of 185 G3 to G4 mixed bag,all is running TCPIP,we are served by an NT 2000 dell box,we have 2.5 terabytes.

8.00 AM phone rings,[tech] bob calls,i'm at a users desk-he can't open microsoft exchange email,i reloaded it two times,but i cannot retrieve email.

[My response] open ATM shut off his fonts,[bob] does it and presto email opens up.

8.05 AM phone rings its ted,ted says a user cannot log onto the network,i ask ted who has 4 years experience-what have you done,he replies everthing,ok ted go empty out his appleshare prep in preferences,ted follows my instructions and presto user is connected to the network.

i can go on and on about my day,but the point i'm making here is under OSX there is no remedies,there is no compatabilities,there is no reference of any kind.
now how do i solve problems,bottom line i can't,and if i can't what does the user do?

I personaly won't touch this OS untill some kinda reference has been mandated,i cannot afford to play with my company's time and money.

Personaly i will explore and learn this OS,but don't make assumptions the learning curve is minute,it is major.

[zpincus]

Here, techoncall, you have a very good point.

Your previous posts made it seem like you thought your users would have a hard time learning the new OS, but this last one makes it sound like the real problem is the learning curve for you in troubleshooting for it.

I hope that you agree that (even for graphic artists), OS X is an easy interface to learn to use, and use well. Because I agree with you that it is anything but easy to learn to troubleshoot. I would certainly hope that a respectable graphics house wouldn't stake anything on a 1.0 piece of software with skimpy documentation -- Apple is certainly going to have to do a lot to make OS X palatable to serious companies.

Here, I think we have two things in our favor:
1) BSD is rock-solid. All the networking and disk and memory components have been tested and refined for longer than Mac OS has even existed. The CLI admin tools (once you understand them) are fantastic. And since programs don't even have write access to most of the disk, the chances that some necessary file is going to get corrupted (the root of so many OS 9 problems) is really minimized. (In the UNIX world, system problems due to files that got stomped are almost unheard-of.)

2) Never again is something like ATM going to disrupt a mail reader because they are no longer going to be able to touch eachother. The end of extention conflicts and a huge reduction in crashes for any reason should mean a lot to admins. And because user-level customizations are in separate folders, a system reinstall will be totally transparent, if it is necessary.

So techoncall, I totally agree. OS X may well make your job a lot harder -- and I don't envy that position. (But then again, some of that will be mitigated, just because the potential for a user or a program to fark things is so much minimized.) I personally am spending my days figuring out how to break and then fix OS X because when 1.0 does come out, there will be a real lack of good troubleshooters. Neither traditional UNIX people nor traditional Mac people will be able to totally fix OS X -- and this is scary.
Good luck, techoncall, and all othes who may soon have to support OS X.

Zach

[Barney]

I think techoncall's only real problem is that he or she doesn't want to learn how to administer OS X. And as far as upgrading to OS X on a network such as the one you are describing, why would you even consider it? OS X is not ready for prime time. Even if it is released tommorow what software will run in it besides in classic.

I myself am taking a graphic arts program right now and yes there are still people in my class looking for the start button on the desktop. I know Mac OS inside and out and consider it an important part of the trade. Would you feel comfortable allowing someone build you a house who was only slightly capable of handling power tools? NO............ TEACH THEM TO USE THE BASIC TOOLS THEY NEED. No one will be there to teach them new software as it is released. They will have to learn it themselves, why would it be different for an OS.

What colour is the sky in YOUR IT world?

[gremlinsof]

Whats wrong with you, first off how stuiped are your graphics guys, they can't install a printer? they are using programs that can render in 3D, i look at those programs with a blank stare so i have to say i am little suprised they can't use a printer, also MacOSX is alot better then the older the older OS and if you were a good network guy your users wouldn't really have a hard time switching over, i mean all they really need are a few apps which you can stick in the dock for them, as for all the unix stuff they won't see it unless you want them too, and the cube is supposed to look like that, if you were a real tech guy you would know the insides of a computer don't really take up all that much space, so with a good heatsink which the cube has you could take out most of the free space

[msimpson]

I think most users will acclimate to the differences in UI if it relieves them from the bomb.

In your argument, you are mixing the concepts of what a novice user and an advance user would do. In Mac OS9, does a novice user munge resources to customize finder? Does an advanced user. Does not munging resources prevent the novice user from getting their work done? I think the answer is no.

Under OSX, the novice user is going to use IE Explorer, Word, Excel and Quicken. In general, the applications that they used under Mac OS 9. They are not going to experience much difference.

However, under OSX, I can setup a world class internet server. Do you know that the worlds busiest ftp server is run under FreeBSD? ftp.cdrom.com. Your operating system is going to have the internal power if you want it. But, we don't have to tell mom.

Michael

[jove]

Hello,

This has been an intersting thread :-> If you haven't watched the "Steve-note", please do. He demonstrates some of the changes in X. I noticed several Classic-isms have returned.

The Apple menu is back. It contains the old "Special" menu contents and aliases to recent stuff.

The menu bar clock is back.

Popup folders in the form of menus spawned by items in the dock.

Location manager - Thank Heaven.

Rumor says the control strip will return.

Desktop hard-drive icons are a real option.

Steve grudgingly showed that Classic like Finder windows are an option.

Of course there are many X specific improvements too numerous to detail.

If I missed any - sorry.

Apple did listen and included many old UI elements to help the end-users who cannot cope with change. Those users do exist :-(

Jove

[webscathe]

I remember a similar change in the PC world about 6 years ago.... Anyone in the PC field interested in going back to Windows 3.11???

The Mac OS just hasn't changed since it was presented back in the day, it's in serious need of a revamp. Give the Mac world a few months, a year at most and all will hail it as the best thing that ever happened to the Mac.