Comparing Dubya to Steve Jobs? Can you say blasphemy?

[MDLarson]

Running the government and ever uttering the word God (in a governmental context) at all is Blasphemy, IMHO. Separation of Church and State is a wasted notion in the modern American Government. Fact is, we live in a religious replublic and the fear isn't of having a Godless society... the fear is in becoming a hard line, fundamentalist religious society. That is the fear. That is what we must learn to buffer against. And this most recent round elections scared the hell out of me in that context.

$.02

OK, I'm sick of people crying about Bush & company's religiousity.

"Separation of Church & State" was meant to prevent a state religion like the one found in England circa 1776, not remove all traces of religion from government.

And please don't persecute Christians or any other religion when you "buffer" against this fictitious hard line, fundamentalist religous society.

Still a stupid topic.

[chornbe]

I see the current hard-line right wing taking us right back to 1776. I hope I'm wrong.

[MDLarson]

I see the current hard-line right wing taking us right back to 1776. I hope I'm wrong.

How?

[chornbe]

Federally mandated morality scares me. Government definitions of family and personal unions scare me. Government money feeding church-based social programs scare me. Churches and religious organizations giving monies to political parties scare me. Such things worry me. I'm someone with a generally conservative outlook on things. I'm not a hard liner by any stretch, but I've always been "with" the conservatives on most things. But lately... I just can't get behind the way I see things going.

[MDLarson]

Federally mandated morality scares me.

What? Like laws against murder and stealing? Yah, those are sure old fashioned and should probably be abolished. I don't know what you intended with your statement, but the fact is, government is ALWAYS 'legislating morality'.

Government definitions of family and personal unions scare me.

Nowhere in modern history has homosexuality been more accepted than in America. And the people in this democracy appear to be quite supportive of the status quo.

Government money feeding church-based social programs scare me.

Why should government 'feed' only secular social programs? Is that not a form of discrimination? And if such faith-based programs are successful (like Teen Challenge), why not?

Churches and religious organizations giving monies to political parties scare me.

Umm...

Such things worry me. I'm someone with a generally conservative outlook on things. I'm not a hard liner by any stretch, but I've always been "with" the conservatives on most things. But lately... I just can't get behind the way I see things going.

Dude, you are scared waaay too easily.

I find it both sad and amusing how people like you attack the presence of a cross in a court building and the mention of 'God' in anything having to do with government and yet are "scared" of religion bearing down upon you. If anything, religion is being absolutely stripped away from government, not added to it. The only point you really have is that we have a Christian president in the White House who takes his faith seriously, and you have a stigma against religous people.

Nobody's discriminating against YOU. If anything, YOU are discriminating against ME as a Christian.

[chornbe]

I'm not discriminating. You're quite wrong on that part. And I'm not talking about the laws against murdering and stealing.

Example: For the record, I'm straight. Wife, several kids, etc. But I do have gay friends and family. My brother is moving to Canada because his S.O., Life Partner, whatever the PC moniker du jour is, can't be naturalized under US law because the US doesn't recognize same-sex marriages. For me, I don't care. But I do care that my brother has to move like 4000 miles away to Canada, and change his career because of a religiously-driven, stupid, archaic rule like "thou shall not lay with another man". The times have changed. Like it or not. That is the very nature of the discrimination of which you speak.

I don't care about your religious affiliation, so please don't assume you have a clue about what I may or may not be discriminating against. I have said nothing to lead you to that. What I said is our government should *not* be making religious doctrine into law. They are.

I am, I guess, a hell-doomed athiest (I just refuse to accept that any God could allow the world to exist in the state it is, but you'll now fire back at me with "free will" and such) and my wife is a Catholic, though she is fundamentally an outcast because we were married in the Baptist church. You should see the flack she's getting from the Catholic church now that she's been asked to be my neice's God Mother. Talk about discriminating. My children are being raised under the Christian teachings and I push their teachings just as much as my wife does. When the time comes for them to be old enough to question what they will and make up their own minds, then I will no longer push them. Allow them to question, explore their beliefs, come to their own growing conclusions. And I won't interfere. Free will, and all.

I hope you're right. I hope I'm just being a tad too paranoid. Perhaps I am just a skittish whacko. If so, then you've nothing to fear.

[ElDiabloConCaca]

Well said chornbe, and that's all I gotta say. I feel I'd get "schooled" in a discussion like this -- but I just wanted to say that's the best rebuttal to an accusation I've read thus far in this thread. MDLarson's got some strong beliefs (as does everyone) but passing that harsh of a judgement like that upon another human, in my opinion, is way out of line.

Makes you wonder who the paraoid one really is. To bring up the idea of discrimination without provocation (I don't see anything that chornbe said that could be interpreted as discriminatory) and then turn it around and accuse the person right back of being the one that's discriminating is just... well, as he put it, paranoid.

We need to keep in mind that supporting one political party or another is a personal belief, and in no way right or wrong. One is not wrong for supporting Bush. One is not wrong for supporting Kerry. And no... Bush didn't win by a landslide. The majority may support him, but it's a small majority. It's not like it was 90-10 or anything. Still, that doesn't make any inferences about whether Bush's actions are right or wrong -- they're actions that some support, and some denounce. You can't tell someone they're wrong for supporting Bush, nor can you tell someone they're wrong for not supporting Bush. It's all opinion on what you believe the leader of this free country is capable of, and if you like the direction Bush is taking the company, you support him. If you would rather see the country being taken in a different direction, you don't. Simple opinion.

[MDLarson]

Well, I'm sorry but I do feel discriminated against often times when I read some discussions going on here (more often at the MacAddict forums; that's why I hang out here more).

But when the ACLU demands a small cross to be removed from the Los Angeles County seal because of "separation of church and state" issues, I have to gag. I'm sorry, but if we follow your line of reasoning, chornbe, we must rename Los Angeles to something less offensive, and for that matter, the name Sacremento must go as well.

I don't mean to needlessly bring up strong issues or whatever, but maybe, just maybe you can see it from my point of view. Christianity as I know it is not seeking to limit your freedom (in fact, it's quite the opposite, but that's a sermon issue).

I think the core issue with those "concerned" about religion in the White House is that you don't know how to deal with a strong president who happens to be a Christian. I have a friend who has recently moved to MN from Massachusets; a liberal grown up in a liberal family. Concerning the Bush administration, the only thing she can say about it is that she doesnt "trust them". I ask why, and she doesn't have an answer.

Bah... it's madness. I have my share of liberal friends (and one close friend who is "coming out of the closet") and we get along JUST FINE inspite of our political differences. Stop being so suspicious of everybody. That's all I have to say.