is osx a true unix system

**RacerX** · May 3rd, 2001, 12:42 AM

I must have missed this earlier

"The Finder is Carbon. At first you'd think it was different enough from OS 9 and earlier that surely that didn't just carbonize the old Finder, but perhaps they did. In any event, the Finder is not Cocoa."

Where did this come from? the Finder.app is an upgrade to Mac OS X Server's Workspace.app (which came from OPENSTEP, which came from NEXTSTEP), only the name has changed to protect the innocent (the average Mac user). There is a Carbon app called the "Finder", but all it does is point to the real Finder.app (infact it is callled the "Mac OS X Fake Finder 1.0"). Let me put it to you another way, if you find something like "English.lproj" inside of an app package... it ain't Carbon!

Sorry Rob

**rharder** · May 3rd, 2001, 08:44 AM

Well, maybe I was wrong about the Finder, but that's what I've heard everywhere, even from Apple's mouth. I know the Finder certainly doesn't <em>act</em> like a cocoa app and it certainly <em>does act</em> like a carbon app.

-Rob

**RacerX** · May 3rd, 2001, 10:08 AM

What does it mean to "act like"? Carbon apps have a few VERY distict proporties. First, and most notable, is the ability to run in both MacOS 8.6+ and Mac OS X (because 70% of the APIs used are the same). Second, Carbon apps require special support that is actually just short of launching the full MacOS in Classic (again, because 70% of the APIs are the same, and must be supported some how), this is where the performance takes a hit, but protected memory can be applied. Third, multiple language support, most of the better Cocoa apps have more than just the English.lproj directory in them to support other languages besides english.

Not everyone at Apple knows the ins and outs of Mac OS X, this is why you can see info coming from them that says "Mac OS X is based on FreeBSD" when in actuallity that is BS. Mac OS X uses and special 4.4BSD interface layer (part is built into Darwin as the interface to the Mach 3.0 microkernel for aspect of the filing system, networking, and multiprocessor support, the other part is the APIs and libs that make up posix compliance, this part being optional while installing Mac OS X), with tools being ported from BSD, OpenBSD, and some from FreeBSD (far more from OpenBSD than FreeBSD as I recall). But, some people see BSD and say FreeBSD (the most widely used version currently). Even Apple's support reference manual for Mac OS X is riddled with errors and generalizations (this is as completely new to Apple's support personal as it is to long time Mac users).

Another noticable difference would be the "save sheets" (Cocoa) vs. "save windows" (Carbon). Carbon (in theory more than practice) should be backwards compatible with the old MacOS, and so Carbon apps don't use the cool "sheet" effect.

As for "acts like", I'm not quite sure what your looking for (or at) to make that judgement. Some people might say speed, but half of the "speed" problem with Mac OS X is the same one that people had with Windows 2000 and it's "cool" fade in and fade out effects (openning takes NO time, fading takes SOME time, so it must be running "slower" even though a NO time fade is no "fade" at all, right?). These effects are timed to play at the same speed on a slow systems as they would on the fastest system (so many re-draws per second).

Hope this helps when people start classifing this app as Carbon and that app as Cocoa. All you do is either try to save something (no "sheet", not Cocoa) or look in side with something like ResEdit (no <language>.lproj, not Cocoa).

**AdmiralAK** · May 3rd, 2001, 10:33 AM

I think that is is worthwhile to note that NetBSD amd OpenBSD have PPC versions, but FreeBSD is strictly x86 (well, since the last time I checked anyways)

Admiral

**RacerX** · May 3rd, 2001, 10:52 AM

How could I forget NetBSD... my friends would kill me (some of them sware by it and hate FreeBSD, I don't get it my self). It's a good thing I don't use my real name.

**AdmiralAK** · May 3rd, 2001, 11:50 AM

LOL its a good thing u arent using your real name. Different BSDs are known for different things, so noty all BSDs are the same I take it. NetBSD is more aabout being the most compatible OS outthere (meaning it runs on most hardware). OpenBSD is all about security. As for FreeBSD, never used it so I dont know its tag line

**rharder** · May 3rd, 2001, 01:03 PM

Looks like I need some direction here:

Am I right in understanding that Cocoa apps have a Services menu while Carbon apps don't?

And am I right in understanding that Cocoa apps support the scroll-wheel on a mouse while Carbon apps don't?

Furthermore am I right in recalling that the Finder has no Services menu and doesn't support the scroll-wheel?

What's going on? Is the Finder Cocoa or not? If it's Cocoa, what's all this I've read about Cocoa apps having the Services menu and support for scroll-wheel mice?

-Rob

**RacerX** · May 3rd, 2001, 03:02 PM

"Am I right in understanding that Cocoa apps have a Services menu while Carbon apps don't?"

Services are reach via the Finder, it was not used much (if at all) in the Finder/Workspace.app, so was dropped. This has nothing to do with it being a Cocoa app. I have outlined EXACTLY what does

"And am I right in understanding that Cocoa apps support the scroll-wheel on a mouse while Carbon apps don't?"

Why would this be a sign?

"Furthermore am I right in recalling that the Finder has no Services menu and doesn't support the scroll-wheel?"

Yes, and I don't know, I don't have a scroll-wheel.

"What's going on? Is the Finder Cocoa or not? If it's Cocoa, what's all this I've read about Cocoa apps having the Services menu and support for scroll-wheel mice?"

Lets try this again (I didn't think this was that hard), if the structure of an app includes directories with "language".lproj THEY ARE COCOA! If you have ANY question left in your mind, try this:

In the Finder, open a window (I just the browser mode myself), go to the "Go" menu, go down to "Go to the folder..." If it is a window dialog it is Carbon (I am completely wrong then), if it is a sheet dialog it is Cocoa (and I am completely right, and we end this).

Go on, I can wait...