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TICKET ARCHIVE -> System Fails to Completely Start
Chris Sykes - Jul 1, 2005 - 12:24 am
Yesterday my system froze and I used the power button on my G5 to restart. The apple showed up on the monitor, then the spinning gear, then just a plain blue screen. I called Applecare and spent over two hours on the phone doing everything possible to get the system to boot even going into terminal mode to wipe all prefs out and reset it.
But even after doing all the usual and then some stuff, the only way to get it to boot was to use the "safe boot" procedure - all other methods failed. All devices were disconnected except keyboard, mouse and monitor.
Finally I got passed to a product specialist who told me to use my original system disk to create an archive and reinstall the system. Unfortunately I cannot locate the disks and was told I could simply get a retail version of Tiger (I'm currently running 10.3.9) and start from there. I'm not sure if I misunderstood, but I had the impression that the retail version came with the hardware test software but when I got to the apple store the salesperson said no; call apple and ask 'em to send one out.
As a quick fix (in addition to buying Tiger) I got Techtool Pro which came with a boot disk. I tried booting from their CD but got nowhere. Again, the only way to boot was to use the safeboot method.
I called their tech support folks and outlined the problems to them and they suggested I unplug my monitor and then restart using the CD.
Presto! The system booted from the CD. I then repeated with the same result - unplug the monitor and restart and then plug it back in after it had booted. It worked.
Then I left the monitor connected and restarted the normal way and forced the cd to eject and the system booted fine. Repeated it a couple of times and it seemed to be fine.
Then I shut it down and reconnected my ethernet dsl modem and USB printer and restarted.
Bam! Blue screen and failure to boot. So I went back to disconnecting everything including the monitor, put techtools CD back in and booted from it. After giving it 15 minutes to start up I plugged the monitor back in and used the CD to run every possible test except the drive sector scan. Everything tested fine: ram, math, video card, drive mechanics, the works.
Then I shut it down and, leaving the monitor connected, restarted and it came up normally through my hard drive.
Then I plugged in my modem, got on line, and found you folks.
So. Now you know it all. Using go/no go testing, the problem seems to be tied to my monitor. I use two, but have only connected my La Cie electron blue 22 IV during this whole process. La Cie's site has no information on this as a problem, but since the guy at Techtool immediately suggested I disconnect the monitor, I'm inclined to think he's got something there.
Anyone got any ideas on what is causing this?
Technically, I'm probably a little more savvy than the average user (I can install my own ram, zap pram and figure out when I need to replace the battery on the motherboard - whoopie!), but I'm certainly no expert.
But even after doing all the usual and then some stuff, the only way to get it to boot was to use the "safe boot" procedure - all other methods failed. All devices were disconnected except keyboard, mouse and monitor.
Finally I got passed to a product specialist who told me to use my original system disk to create an archive and reinstall the system. Unfortunately I cannot locate the disks and was told I could simply get a retail version of Tiger (I'm currently running 10.3.9) and start from there. I'm not sure if I misunderstood, but I had the impression that the retail version came with the hardware test software but when I got to the apple store the salesperson said no; call apple and ask 'em to send one out.
As a quick fix (in addition to buying Tiger) I got Techtool Pro which came with a boot disk. I tried booting from their CD but got nowhere. Again, the only way to boot was to use the safeboot method.
I called their tech support folks and outlined the problems to them and they suggested I unplug my monitor and then restart using the CD.
Presto! The system booted from the CD. I then repeated with the same result - unplug the monitor and restart and then plug it back in after it had booted. It worked.
Then I left the monitor connected and restarted the normal way and forced the cd to eject and the system booted fine. Repeated it a couple of times and it seemed to be fine.
Then I shut it down and reconnected my ethernet dsl modem and USB printer and restarted.
Bam! Blue screen and failure to boot. So I went back to disconnecting everything including the monitor, put techtools CD back in and booted from it. After giving it 15 minutes to start up I plugged the monitor back in and used the CD to run every possible test except the drive sector scan. Everything tested fine: ram, math, video card, drive mechanics, the works.
Then I shut it down and, leaving the monitor connected, restarted and it came up normally through my hard drive.
Then I plugged in my modem, got on line, and found you folks.
So. Now you know it all. Using go/no go testing, the problem seems to be tied to my monitor. I use two, but have only connected my La Cie electron blue 22 IV during this whole process. La Cie's site has no information on this as a problem, but since the guy at Techtool immediately suggested I disconnect the monitor, I'm inclined to think he's got something there.
Anyone got any ideas on what is causing this?
Technically, I'm probably a little more savvy than the average user (I can install my own ram, zap pram and figure out when I need to replace the battery on the motherboard - whoopie!), but I'm certainly no expert.
Stuartpau - Jul 1, 2005 - 8:54 pm
I use the same monitor on one of my systems, and fortunately do not have this problem. But it sure looks to me, like it is a monitor issue.
One of the problems with the La Cie Monitor and don't get me wrong, my wife uses it for a calibrted monitor for her photography, but one of it's issues is that it can be controlled internally by the mac itself using the Electron Blue Calibrator.
Do you use the monitor as a USB hub?. IF not you might want to try and plug in a USB cable into the mini USB hub at the back of the monitor. You will need one of those USB cables that goes from the computer or another hub, at one end, and at the other end have the cable end that goes into equipment like a scanner. I am sorry I don't know the cable codes, but you can get a universal USB Cable kit from radio shack that allows you to put whatever connector you need at each end of a USB cable. Great for testing stuff out.
As your problem only comes when you plug in the monitor, it pretty much narrows it down a bit, at least to my way of thinking. as for the hardware test disk, as far as I know you only get one when you get Applecare and it is similar to Tech Tool Pro in fact it is a special version of Tech Tool that will only open directly into testing your Mac.
The monitor you have can be controlled via usb and the Elktron Blue Eye. So what I think the real problem is, is somewhere in you monitors setup someting got changed.
Hooking the monitor up to USB might get the appropriate signal sent to the monitor allowing your system to use it.
Another thing you could try would be to access the monitor controls and see if you can set the monitor back to the factory defaults, this might cure your problem. Does your monitor have a set of control switches on the front?
It is an Elektron standard monitor and not one of their new LCD monitors right?
This is definitely a weird one.
What happens when you try to use a different monitor?
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Stuart
One of the problems with the La Cie Monitor and don't get me wrong, my wife uses it for a calibrted monitor for her photography, but one of it's issues is that it can be controlled internally by the mac itself using the Electron Blue Calibrator.
Do you use the monitor as a USB hub?. IF not you might want to try and plug in a USB cable into the mini USB hub at the back of the monitor. You will need one of those USB cables that goes from the computer or another hub, at one end, and at the other end have the cable end that goes into equipment like a scanner. I am sorry I don't know the cable codes, but you can get a universal USB Cable kit from radio shack that allows you to put whatever connector you need at each end of a USB cable. Great for testing stuff out.
As your problem only comes when you plug in the monitor, it pretty much narrows it down a bit, at least to my way of thinking. as for the hardware test disk, as far as I know you only get one when you get Applecare and it is similar to Tech Tool Pro in fact it is a special version of Tech Tool that will only open directly into testing your Mac.
The monitor you have can be controlled via usb and the Elktron Blue Eye. So what I think the real problem is, is somewhere in you monitors setup someting got changed.
Hooking the monitor up to USB might get the appropriate signal sent to the monitor allowing your system to use it.
Another thing you could try would be to access the monitor controls and see if you can set the monitor back to the factory defaults, this might cure your problem. Does your monitor have a set of control switches on the front?
It is an Elektron standard monitor and not one of their new LCD monitors right?
This is definitely a weird one.
What happens when you try to use a different monitor?
--------
Stuart
Chris Sykes - Jul 1, 2005 - 11:26 pm
I use the LaCie as my primary monitor and a NEC LDC 15 inch as my secondary. The LaCie is a regular CRT with button controls located on the front. The controls allow for standard visual adjustments like shape, temp, contrast, etc.
I do not use the monitor as a USB hub. However, both monitors are color-corrected with SpyderPro - similar to Blue Eye.
While I haven't reset the monitor defaults to factory yet (the system appears to be functioning normally now), it is due for a recalibration. But the old phrase, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it," comes to mind. However , what man can break, man can fix.
I think your assesment may be correct - I just wish I could figure out what would have caused it in the first place.
The wierd thing is that when I was trouble shooting and experienced the last failure, it seemed to be linked to plugging in my ethernet modem and USB printer - not the monitor.
Is the monitor cable connected to the USB system? Is there an advantage to using the monitor as a USB hub?
Anyway, thanks for the feedback and tell your wife she has a great monitor!
I do not use the monitor as a USB hub. However, both monitors are color-corrected with SpyderPro - similar to Blue Eye.
While I haven't reset the monitor defaults to factory yet (the system appears to be functioning normally now), it is due for a recalibration. But the old phrase, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it," comes to mind
I think your assesment may be correct - I just wish I could figure out what would have caused it in the first place.
The wierd thing is that when I was trouble shooting and experienced the last failure, it seemed to be linked to plugging in my ethernet modem and USB printer - not the monitor.
Is the monitor cable connected to the USB system? Is there an advantage to using the monitor as a USB hub?
Anyway, thanks for the feedback and tell your wife she has a great monitor!
Stuartpau - Jul 2, 2005 - 2:31 pm
HI and thanks for the vote of confidence on the monitor, it really is a great one especially for the price. If you get a chacne I was thinking of getting into the Spyder for Calibration.
This particular monitor cable is not connected directly via the USB, however having said that, you can control almost every aspect of the monitor from software on the Mac. To me that indicates if the driver or preference file gets damaged then your monitor could fail.
I don't reallly think there is any advantage to using the built in USB on the monitor, I just use it for convenience. I have the Keyboard/Mouse and the Blue Eye connected there mostly because we keep all our CPU's and other noisy equipment in separate cool rooms that are also sound proofed.
I know that i said previously that it looked like the monitor was the issue, but it could be the USB setup.
A lot of wierd stuff happens to computers especially these days because they are so fast and sensitive. A small power glitch can really mess something up and cause a system failure and you actually didn't do anything.
When I was out on the road fixing systems, one of the first things I recommended to people was a UPS. Surge protection is OK, but unless you spend a bundle of money on something like "Monster Power Line Conditioner" the small surge protectors can't properly protect you agains a power drop out. Surge yes Dropout no. Where a UPS can just about guarantee your power stays up where itis needed and they all have pretty good surge protection built in. Not only that most of the companies that make them, offer a connected equipment warranty that covers any gear you have plugged into the UPS, as long as you don't overdo it. I have found this aproach has saved me and my clients a ton of time and money and nowadays the UPS systems available are a whole lot less expensive than they used to be. You may already have one of course in which case it is possible that the system itself got a corrupted file and somehow you managed to find it, a tough job in the best of times and cured it.
It is a bit odd that the problem seems to have moved to the Ethernet Modem and Printer.
I suppose you did do the PRAM/NVRAM zap. I have listed below what gets reset when you do this, you might be able to see some relationships between the PRAM and your equipment in this list, which is from Apple.
What Is Stored in PRAM?"
Status of AppleTalk
Serial Port Configuration and Port definition
Alarm clock setting
Application font
Serial printer location
Autokey rate
Autokey delay
Speaker volume
Attention (beep) sound
Double-click time
Caret blink time (insertion point rate)
Mouse scaling (mouse speed)
Startup disk
Menu blink count
Monitor depth
32-bit addressing
Virtual memory
RAM disk
Disk cache
Quite a lot of stuff really , some of it is in NVRAM and some in PRAM.
Sometimes you need to reset the NVRAM by itself and to do that you hold down the CMD, O F keys at restart, this should bring you to the Open Firmware page. Sometimes you can get this page if the Firmware needs t obe reset, and some times it just happens another Glitch I guess.
If you get this window
you can type "mac-boot" at the Open Firmware prompt,
This should start up your Mac, however before you do that
type: reset-nvram
Press Return.
At the Open Firmware prompt, type: reset-all
Press Return.
Example
0 > reset-nvram
Press Return
0 > reset-all
Press Return
The reset-all command should restart your Mac.This will reset all the open firmware and should clean up anything that got in there by accident.
Well I hope that lot helps you some. IF your system is working now, it will probably continue to do so, but if I were you I would back it up just in case it does go down again and you have to reformat the drive and reinstall everything.
You did not mention the printer type you have, but in some situations. you might need to delete the printer from your printer list, go to the Printer manufacturer's home page, Download the latest drivers and reinsntall the printer, I know this is an issue wit hsome Epson Printers in OS X 10.4.?
Stuart
This particular monitor cable is not connected directly via the USB, however having said that, you can control almost every aspect of the monitor from software on the Mac. To me that indicates if the driver or preference file gets damaged then your monitor could fail.
I don't reallly think there is any advantage to using the built in USB on the monitor, I just use it for convenience. I have the Keyboard/Mouse and the Blue Eye connected there mostly because we keep all our CPU's and other noisy equipment in separate cool rooms that are also sound proofed.
I know that i said previously that it looked like the monitor was the issue, but it could be the USB setup.
A lot of wierd stuff happens to computers especially these days because they are so fast and sensitive. A small power glitch can really mess something up and cause a system failure and you actually didn't do anything.
When I was out on the road fixing systems, one of the first things I recommended to people was a UPS. Surge protection is OK, but unless you spend a bundle of money on something like "Monster Power Line Conditioner" the small surge protectors can't properly protect you agains a power drop out. Surge yes Dropout no. Where a UPS can just about guarantee your power stays up where itis needed and they all have pretty good surge protection built in. Not only that most of the companies that make them, offer a connected equipment warranty that covers any gear you have plugged into the UPS, as long as you don't overdo it. I have found this aproach has saved me and my clients a ton of time and money and nowadays the UPS systems available are a whole lot less expensive than they used to be. You may already have one of course in which case it is possible that the system itself got a corrupted file and somehow you managed to find it, a tough job in the best of times and cured it.
It is a bit odd that the problem seems to have moved to the Ethernet Modem and Printer.
I suppose you did do the PRAM/NVRAM zap. I have listed below what gets reset when you do this, you might be able to see some relationships between the PRAM and your equipment in this list, which is from Apple.
What Is Stored in PRAM?"
Status of AppleTalk
Serial Port Configuration and Port definition
Alarm clock setting
Application font
Serial printer location
Autokey rate
Autokey delay
Speaker volume
Attention (beep) sound
Double-click time
Caret blink time (insertion point rate)
Mouse scaling (mouse speed)
Startup disk
Menu blink count
Monitor depth
32-bit addressing
Virtual memory
RAM disk
Disk cache
Quite a lot of stuff really , some of it is in NVRAM and some in PRAM.
Sometimes you need to reset the NVRAM by itself and to do that you hold down the CMD, O F keys at restart, this should bring you to the Open Firmware page. Sometimes you can get this page if the Firmware needs t obe reset, and some times it just happens another Glitch I guess.
If you get this window
you can type "mac-boot" at the Open Firmware prompt,
This should start up your Mac, however before you do that
type: reset-nvram
Press Return.
At the Open Firmware prompt, type: reset-all
Press Return.
Example
0 > reset-nvram
Press Return
0 > reset-all
Press Return
The reset-all command should restart your Mac.This will reset all the open firmware and should clean up anything that got in there by accident.
Well I hope that lot helps you some. IF your system is working now, it will probably continue to do so, but if I were you I would back it up just in case it does go down again and you have to reformat the drive and reinstall everything.
You did not mention the printer type you have, but in some situations. you might need to delete the printer from your printer list, go to the Printer manufacturer's home page, Download the latest drivers and reinsntall the printer, I know this is an issue wit hsome Epson Printers in OS X 10.4.?
Stuart
Stuartpau - Jul 2, 2005 - 3:00 pm
Sorry a little boo Boo, you have to hold the Option O/F keys on restart to get to the NVRAM page, as opposed to CMD O/F
Sorry about that.
--------
Stuart
Sorry about that.
--------
Stuart
Chris Sykes - Jul 7, 2005 - 1:21 am
Stuart:
Thanks for the feedback. Sorry I didn't get back to you earlier, but the system's running and I've been tied up with other stuff.
That said, the entire problem may very well have been caused by a power issue. The first time this happened (months ago) it all seemed to be related to my DSL connection. One morning I booted up and my broadband no longer worked. Something happened - I'm not sure what - but after conferring with the phone company's techs in Manila (talk about global village) and verifying they could successfully ping my IP, I was able to isolate the problem to my router. My DSL connection has always been flaky - I originally tried to connect my home network down in my basement where the connection came in from the street but after much nashing of teeth was forced to connect the modem above grade, then run back down to the router in the basement and then back up through the LAN to my office.
A buddy of mine who is a phone/computer tech helped me through the whole process and told me there was just too much interference down in the basement. Actually the original phone guys got kinda freaked out by the wiring in my basement - it's a combination of knob and tube that dates back to 1920s and modern romex - if you use an inductive electrical sensor down there you'ld probably think it was a death trap.
Anyway - long story short - I got lazy and arrogant and never installed a UPS. Never had a significant problem with surges or drops - at least to the point where it fried anything - until my router got nailed. My buddy programmed it and I haven't gotten him back to fix it yet.
I haven't really worried about it since I stopped using my Epson Stylus 3000 and started using a newer USB printer. While the 3000 was great for comping art, processing the native postscript files took forever versus my newer non-postscript printer. Besides, the critical thing was the ability to output full-bleed tabloid printouts - not color accuracy - and while the 3000 was and is a great printer, it's a monster that took up way too much space in my office. The new printer does a great job, and these days virtually everything I output is PDF and fits nicely on my desk.
Oh yeah, about the new printer...it's an Epson Photo Stylus 1280.
I like the Spyder because you can use to calibrate any monitor (including an LCD!) or scanner. A little pricey, but if you want to work below the level of actual prepress, it gives you a pretty damn good WYSIWYG image. Also, while I've never bothered, you can actually use it for high-end prepress work. But since I don't work for Ralph Lauren, all I really worry about is achieving pleasing color. I imagine your wife would love it and if you maintain a lot of client's systems, it's probably a good investment.
Finally, thanks for all the tech info. I actually ran out and got "Mac OSX Panther in a Nutshell," a 900 page tome filled with all the stuff Apple never gives you unless you put on a headset and spend a few hours making nice with tech support. Couldn't find one for the latest jungle animal, but figured besides the spots, the OS hasn't fundamentally changed between 10.3 and 10.4. Now I have everything I need to really screw up my system!
Regards, Chris Sykes
FYI: my email is wsicrsykes@aol.com
Thanks for the feedback. Sorry I didn't get back to you earlier, but the system's running and I've been tied up with other stuff.
That said, the entire problem may very well have been caused by a power issue. The first time this happened (months ago) it all seemed to be related to my DSL connection. One morning I booted up and my broadband no longer worked. Something happened - I'm not sure what - but after conferring with the phone company's techs in Manila (talk about global village) and verifying they could successfully ping my IP, I was able to isolate the problem to my router. My DSL connection has always been flaky - I originally tried to connect my home network down in my basement where the connection came in from the street but after much nashing of teeth was forced to connect the modem above grade, then run back down to the router in the basement and then back up through the LAN to my office.
A buddy of mine who is a phone/computer tech helped me through the whole process and told me there was just too much interference down in the basement. Actually the original phone guys got kinda freaked out by the wiring in my basement - it's a combination of knob and tube that dates back to 1920s and modern romex - if you use an inductive electrical sensor down there you'ld probably think it was a death trap.
Anyway - long story short - I got lazy and arrogant and never installed a UPS. Never had a significant problem with surges or drops - at least to the point where it fried anything - until my router got nailed. My buddy programmed it and I haven't gotten him back to fix it yet.
I haven't really worried about it since I stopped using my
Oh yeah, about the new printer...it's an Epson Photo Stylus 1280
I like the Spyder because you can use to calibrate any monitor (including an LCD!) or scanner. A little pricey, but if you want to work below the level of actual prepress, it gives you a pretty damn good WYSIWYG image. Also, while I've never bothered, you can actually use it for high-end prepress work. But since I don't work for Ralph Lauren, all I really worry about is achieving pleasing color. I imagine your wife would love it and if you maintain a lot of client's systems, it's probably a good investment.
Finally, thanks for all the tech info. I actually ran out and got "Mac OSX Panther in a Nutshell," a 900 page tome filled with all the stuff Apple never gives you unless you put on a headset and spend a few hours making nice with tech support. Couldn't find one for the latest jungle animal, but figured besides the spots, the OS hasn't fundamentally changed between 10.3 and 10.4. Now I have everything I need to really screw up my system!
Regards, Chris Sykes
FYI: my email is wsicrsykes@aol.com
Stuartpau - Jul 7, 2005 - 1:59 pm
HI Chris, it really is amazing how many issuesI have managed to solve by telling people to get a UPS. I have five of the damn things and one of them is huge.
I even have one that drives the ignition circuit of my water heater.
Well it sure sound lie you got on top of the problem and no doubt that getting a book on Panther will help you a lot.
In a way I hate this book trip because I have bundles of huge manual that cover every OS I have ever used not to mention Unix, and Linux.
As for the interference issue, I have gadget that reads out how much RF interference there is. It is not wavelenght specific, but if it reads high, then you can bet nothing is going to work in that location.
I hope I was able to help you out in some way.
Do you need any more help specifically?. If you do drop me a line or let me know so I can close out your ticket. OK?
--------
Stuart
I even have one that drives the ignition circuit of my water heater.
Well it sure sound lie you got on top of the problem and no doubt that getting a book on Panther will help you a lot.
In a way I hate this book trip because I have bundles of huge manual that cover every OS I have ever used not to mention Unix, and Linux.
As for the interference issue, I have gadget that reads out how much RF interference there is. It is not wavelenght specific, but if it reads high, then you can bet nothing is going to work in that location.
I hope I was able to help you out in some way.
Do you need any more help specifically?. If you do drop me a line or let me know so I can close out your ticket. OK?
--------
Stuart
Chris Sykes - Jul 8, 2005 - 9:24 am
Stuart:
Thanks for the help and close the ticket!
Chris Sykes
Thanks for the help and close the ticket!
Chris Sykes
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