I wonder what the trolls would think of this one

edX

edX

mac shaman
here is an article that talks about feedback to David Coursey's experiment to go back to using a mac full time.

follow this link

so the more times i hear this argument that games are so important an issue in remaining a pc user, i have to ask myself which platform and its users is really for kids and the immature?

or is it just that after fighting with your pc all week, people feel like they need at least the chance to win?:)
 
on the subject of games, the mac has historically been called a toy but PCs have all the games (except the impossible chess). Can anyone tell me why?
 
I read the article. Only one of the people who wrote back mentioned games. He also said that he would switch "next month" if his games worked on a mac. Another mentioned that mac users were elitist. After hearing you call PC users immature I can't help but wonder if he's right.

Again and again I keep hearing mac users claim to be more technical than PC users. As a guy who lives in both worlds let me tell you, PC users are just as technical as mac users. Of course both platforms have their gurus/experts and both platforms have their dodos. Let's not act elite.

And finally, good games cost $10-15 million dollars to make nowadays. They could never make a profit if they only ran on a platform with less than 5% of the marketshare. (Linux has this same problem). Beyond that, most games aren't even ported because even porting can be too expensive to make money with such a small userbase.

Hopefully, that will change.
 
One last thing, your subject is "what the trolls would think of this one". Then you procede to make fun of PC users.

Who's trolling?
 
Originally posted by vanguard
And finally, good games cost $10-15 million dollars to make nowadays. They could never make a profit if they only ran on a platform with less than 5% of the marketshare. (Linux has this same problem). Beyond that, most games aren't even ported because even porting can be too expensive to make money with such a small userbase.

Hopefully, that will change.
Click to expand...

If this were true, NOBODY would make games for Mac or PC. That 5% marketshare figure is thrown around so much as though it were piddly. Actually, 5% translates to millions of users. If a company can't be profitable by doing a bit of porting to gain that many more potential clients, they're running their businesses poorly.

Games are important though. They are the only thing the average user does that pushes the hardware envelope. Average users don't edit broadcast quality video in real time. Gamers keep the consumer PC industry going forward. The strange thing though, is that games SUCK on PCs.

I use PCs and Macs too. My neice got survivor for Xmas this year for her PC. It won't install. We've tried it now on 5 different brand new PCs. All meet, and exceed the hardware/software requirements. Final Fantasy on PC wouldn't play the sound, even though our sound card passed the built-in sound test for the game. I have other examples, if you want some. Games on my Mac on the other hand always work. More and more games are shipping for Mac too. This wouldn't happen if the platform wasn't a viable business for games. Have you read Sony's press releases lately? I love the "Your Mac is welcome here!" message now when I go to the <a href="http://www.station.com/">station</a>.

Even though this is true, I still prefer to play most games not on my Mac or PC, but on my <a href="http://homepage.mac.com/guin/PhotoAlbum9.html">gaming consoles</a>. There's NO overhead of an OS, just high-end graphic cards and a CPU dedicated to rendering those polygons.

The only games that play better on a computer (Mac or PC) are strategy games like Starcraft, Civilization, and massive-multiplayer online games. The strategy games come out on Mac too. It's the MMORG that the Mac is lacking in right now. Sony will be the pioneer that changes it. First person shooters are also good to play on computer 'cause you can get online and frag strangers easily. It's the online part that makes these currently better than consoles, but all the big game consoles out now have internet connection capability, or it's coming soon. Big FPS shooter games also are all on Mac.... and they work.. out of the box.
 
What you said just pinned what I felt right on the nose, Jadey. You sure know what you're talking about. :) There are 25 MILLION Mac users out there, and if a company doesn't think it can make a profit by doing a piddly port of a game to the Macintosh, then they're a f*#@ed-up company. Seriously, if it's a good game, then it will sell, and they will make a profit by porting it to the Macintosh.

Also, one other thing: just because there are 15 thousand different versions of solitaire out there on the PC and only a handful on the Mac doesn't mean that the state of gaming sucks on the Mac. It's QUALITY, not QUANTITY. And as Jadey said, Mac gaming is of much higher quality, regardless of the fps you get (and seriously, you DON'T need anything above 80 fps).
 
Actually, I didn't say 5%. I said less than 5%. I think the fact that most games aren't ported is says it best, it's hard to make money on a platform with a small market share. (BTW, Loki, the Linux gaming company just went out of business.)

Both Myth II and Myth III didn't work for me on my iBook. Myth II let me play about 5 missions and now it won't go any further. Myth III only let me play the training mission. Mac gaming isn't perfect either. (Actually, my experience has been terrible. However, it's not much experience so I can't put too much faith in it.) I also prefer my gaming console, a sony PS2. BTW, it has an OS.

As for the FPS, I agree completely. You don't need crazy numbers to make a good game.

Finally, the thread was about an article with feedback to a reporter who is trying a mac. Some of it was positive and some of it was negative. I really wrote just to make sure that Ed knew he was trolling. :)
 
posted by Vanguard
Who's trolling?

and

I really wrote just to make sure that Ed knew he was trolling.
Click to expand...

Actually, I think Ed is trying to find me some trolls to play with. It just hasn't been the same with out Manic to play with (even though he did go over the top way too often).

posted by Jadey
Games are important though. They are the only thing the average user does that pushes the hardware envelope. Average users don't edit broadcast quality video in real time. Gamers keep the consumer PC industry going forward.
Click to expand...

I completely agree! I may be the first to hit trolls with the Gamer label, but it is games that have made our equipment faster and less expensive over the years (though a bind belief by the average user that only the fastest systems can run their word processor hasn't hurt either). If only the people who really needed the the system resources were the only ones buying the high end equipment, the demand would be so little that the prices would put those systems almost out of reach. I would point out the prices of the Macintosh IIfx and the Quadra 950 were almost three times that of the PowerMac G4/867 of today, and that maxing out the RAM on those older systems would have cost almost as much as the systems themselves (while today we flip a coin on wether to buy more RAM or a pizza).

As for the state of Mac gaming, it is understandable that that games that have little or no audience in the PC world would not be ported to the Mac world, but games that do very good on Wintel (or look like they are going to be very good) do make it to us in time. I am happy with my current stable of games (Doom I & II, Unreal & UT, Quake II & III, Elite Force, Rainbow Six & Rogue Spear to name a few of the ones I enjoy), and feel no need to have the newest games today (because I'm still playing with some of the oldest). So we get a reverse market share of the games (we make up less than 5% of buyers, so we only see maybe the top 5% of games), there are some real bad games out there that make money on the Wintel platform because someone is going to buy a copy sooner or later.

posted by Vanguard
Again and again I keep hearing mac users claim to be more technical than PC users. As a guy who lives in both worlds let me tell you, PC users are just as technical as mac users. Of course both platforms have their gurus/experts and both platforms have their dodos. Let's not act elite.
Click to expand...

With Mac OS X, Macs have become completely useful systems right out of the box without buying any other software. And we have a very nice selection of software if we do need more. The only problem is that we have that selection because we are vocal about wanting a selection. The only reason our platform has survived to this point is because we have demanded that it survive. We are required to act elite.

As for technical claims, I'm sorry, but it is very true. I have an almost 3 to 1 ratio of Mac clients to PC clients, and yet my PC clients make up more than half my business. Why? Because the Mac users can fix most problems on their own. Per system, there are five times as many IT professionals working on Wintel than any other platform (that is about a 100 to 1 ratio compared to Mac IT). Why? Because the average user can't fix some of the most average problems that come up on PCs. This is very real, and in no way puts down high end users of PCs.

After spending the last 72 hours repairing a number of Windows systems, I have honestly thought about dropping support of Windows 95/98/Me completely! And I have been known to push my clients toward Windows NT/2000 just because I know that those versions do everything they need (and I'll get called less). Then again, Windows paid the rent for this month, so why should I complain. :D
 
"trolling for trolls, trolling for trolls
you'll come a trolling for trolls with me..."
-sung to the tune of 'Waltzing Matilda'
traditional lyrics paraphrased from this site. :D

and all i caught was vanguard:( times are hard and food is scarce;)

vanguard - i will do you one better and say that it bothers me when people say that a mac is just as technical as a pc. that is just plain a bunch of crap. The fact is that macs are in general extremely user friendly, no tech background required to make them work beautifully!! They are much simpler and much more intuitive. they are the choice of many professions/professionals that need/want to do as little computer training as possible. the fact is that a mac is so simple that an idiot could use one right out of the box. because a lot of very intelligent people put lots of time and effort into making them that way. but then some of the most brilliant people in their fields use them because they have other things to work on than playing around on their computer all day. and yet it appears that underneath that crafty disguise lays an awesome technology that can do most anything that is asked of it.

i don't know if i think mac owners would buy many of the kinds of games that seem to appeal to pc users. so why should they make em for us? if i want great graphics and fast action i play games on a game system. what a waste of a computer to even try. the only games i enjoy on my mac are either short brain teazers or long involved RPG. in both cases, it is more for mental stimulation than developing my hand-eye coordination.

it just seems that no one can compare macs to pc's without bringing up the game argument and i find it to be a rather childish one. but even my 12 yo son knows the difference between what a computer can do and what a game system can do.

now the guy who said it was all the money he has already invested in his pc system, him i can empathize with!! :)
 
originally posted by my friend RacerX
Actually, I think Ed is trying to find me some trolls to play with. It just hasn't been the same with out Manic to play with (even though he did go over the top way too often).
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guilty as charged:D

but i posted the article (not the title of the thread) because i found it interesting and pretty fair with some reasonable responses. even the talkbacks at the bottom are fairly intelligent (i did just random sample a few). and it isn't everyday we see that from ZD net who is mac toerant, sometimes even a little friendly but isn't exactly in love with apple. they have much more invested in their pc relationships than in their mac ones. in fact 90% of their mailings that i get have nothing to do with macs. lately that has dropped to about 60% since Coursney started his experiment.

just thought i would share. (but the title - both vanguard and RacerX are right:D ) and some of my other friends have answered nicely as well.

i can't have Racer getting all depressed on me. what kind of friend would i be if i let that happen!!:cool:
 
Originally posted by vanguard
Another mentioned that mac users were elitist. After hearing you call PC users immature I can't help but wonder if he's right.
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What's an elite anyway? It's a bunch of people who think their way is the right way and look down upon the others. Elite is always good for those inside and bad for those outside. Do I feel elite by using a Titanium PowerBook G4 with Mac OS X? Oh yes. Yes I do. Nothing wrong with it. It's the feeling of superiority that comes with the Ti, isn't it? It's a luxury item after all. And OF COURSE it also serves its cause very well. That's a given.
 
I had a very interesting little chat with an on-line friend of mine last night. We became acquainted through a common-interest group that has no relation to computers.
I told her I was on a Mac. She was shocked! She said I should really go with what the vast majority uses.
I said, no thanks, I go with the best platform. :p
She said, but you can't open Windows files (yawn). So I told her about MacLinkPlus and Office v.X and universal file formats like jpeg. She was stunned!
We then got into discussing a game she had sent me (very basic, a comic variant of Tetris in .exe format). I had to confess that it took Virtual PC to play that one.
But I think this illustrates how so much of the negative attitude that people have toward Macs is based purely on misinformation.:rolleyes:
 
One thing mac is missing is sports games. I love baseball so much I'll buy a high end pc just for that. And in my opinion all baseball games released on console in last 5 years they all suck. High Heat Baseball is the best baseball ever. 3DO won't make it for mac though. But anyway, mac is missing the sports games mainly.

If I could play the games I like on mac then I'd never touch a pc really except to access news groups cus there's not one news group app worth crap on the mac. www.newsbin.com mac has nothing like it and never will in my opinion.

Anyhow I'd use mac a lot more if it could play the games I like, but it doesn't so I use the pc 99.9% of the time. I have my Dual G4 right next to my pc when or if I ever want to use it. Which in the last 6 months has been extremly rare using the mac.
 
I didn't say consoles have no OS, how would they do anything without one? I said it has provides no overhead. When you're playing a game on a console, the OS with it is so miniscule, it dedicates itself to the task of rendering graphics and crunching numbers so you can play your games. This is true of practically every console with the possible exception of XP that uses a stripped down version of Windows 2000.

I'd also have to agree with RacerX. Mac does get the top 5% of games. The best part about this is that we didn't used to - more popular games ARE being ported to mac, thanks to great companies like <a href="http://www.aspyr.com">Aspyr</a>

As for sports games, I say again they're best on console, but on your Mac, you can play Madden 2000 and Tony Hawk Pro Skater 2. THPS3 is also going to be released for Mac.
 
For Coursey's first report on how things are going click here

again some of the talkback at bottom is worth the reading.

and just curious, is anyone here who is defending gaming as an important aspect of their lives over the age of 25? this is not an attempt to put anyone down, i assure you. more a matter of looking at normal development. even i like playing games when i can find the time and i am 44.
 
I was going to say that Ed throws the bait and Racer slays the trolls lol ...
but this time he answered before I could :p


well first off, Mac users are no elitists, at least not the great majority. We might look like elitists for one reason, most PC people that I have seen are like manic, even ADULTS! How can you not come across as an elitist when you have arguments to make your point and the pc user can only say "well the mac just sucks just because" --- that is NOT an argument!

When you ask them for an argument, the first thing they say is that "it doesnt have games". Excuse me, but a computer primarily is a tool to get things done, not a gaming machine. Even though this is the fact mac games do exist and they usually come out concurently with their PC counterpart releases.


PC users just need a 101 course in making arguments for an against, at least they can be a little wiser this way.



Admiral
 
An article in Newsweek from about a year ago previewing the Xbox and other consoles stated that the very top notch games cost about 3-5 million dollars to produce. I do not know the exact date of publication, but 10-15 million is way high. I'd like to see a source for that number.
 
posted by buggs1a
Anyhow I'd use mac a lot more if it could play the games I like, but it doesn't so I use the pc 99.9% of the time. I have my Dual G4 right next to my pc when or if I ever want to use it. Which in the last 6 months has been extremly rare using the mac.
Click to expand...

Okay, I'd say that makes you a PC user. Of all the systems I have, 3 are PCs and none have Windows on them. I use Windows for no productive purpose I can think of. I do have Windows 3.1, 95, 98, Me, NT 4.0 sp6 and 2000 Pro installed on my Mac in VPC for the rare times that I do need a Windows system, but I sure couldn't justify installing it on actual hardware. My uses of Windows (for anything other than repairing client systems) mirrors your use of your Mac (or my use of Solaris) at about 0.01% of the time. If Solaris ran better in VPC, I wouldn't really need any SPARC systems at all (other than to learn how to use and repair Sun hardware). As for the other 99.8% of the time, 50% of it would be a Mac (A/UX, Mac OS or Mac OS X), 30% would be PCs (mainly in Rhapsody and sometime OPENSTEP), and the rest on my SGIs (Irix).

The games issue is, like I stated earlier, a non-issue for me because I have all the games that I need. I surely can't imagine that games alone would make up that 99.9% of your PC use, so I can only assume that you feel more productive in your non-gaming activities on a PC as well. Which is fine, I just can't imagine spending the money you did on a Dual G4 on a system that I would use as little as you use your Mac.

As for the games/age issue that Ed brought up, I'm 34 and play about three hours a week (except when I first get a game, then I usually play continuously until I finish all the levels, about four days on Rogue Spear and two days on Elite Force when I got them). I would consider that a healthy interest in games, but at 10+ hours of computer time a day, hardly all consuming.
 
mindbend, I believe that figure is for Final Fantasy X which had the highest game budget of all time. That figure is way above the norm. FFX is for Playstation2 exclusively too - not available for PCs.
 
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