# Which Windows features?



## uoba (Jun 14, 2002)

Okay, don't flame.

I used Macs for 98% of my professional life over the last 7 years. We have 3 macs in the studio, and a dual pentium III 600Mhz, stuck in the corner used basically for testing that client's sites work on Windows (which is pretty much a necessity  )

Anyway, after spending about 1 hour on Windows (the longest time for about 3 years), I wasn't that upset with it. So...

This leads me to ask you all to do a bit of soul searching and to put those Mac Evangelist views aside for one moment, and inform us of those things that OSX can 'take inspiration' from Windows?

Personally, even though it pains me to say it, Windows UI is faster than OSX, Applications and windows open a lot faster, I want this (yeah I know Jaguar is coming, but is it really that fast?)

Anyway, anything else? (Ooh, I also like that new XP thing whereby a user can logout but their apps are left open).

Come on, be truthful.


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## Koelling (Jun 14, 2002)

As much as I hate Windows it might be fun to hear what people think they have going for them. 

I for one think the UI is worse because (my experience only) it doesn't redraw the whole window at once. they may be able to get a glimpse of the title faster than us but it creates a broken look. Aqua looks more refined and professional.

Really, the only thing that I envy is their user base which brings out programs for them first. I think Apple has the right idea to legitimately get users and not strong arm people into using their software. We will get there, if slowly.


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## adambyte (Jun 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by uoba _
> *(Ooh, I also like that new XP thing whereby a user can logout but their apps are left open).*



I second that... I would LOVE this feature on Mac OS X... nothing more annoying than having all your apps quit themselves and close shop when another user must log in, just for a quick session.

Another thing I miss... Windows lets you flip your two button mouse to "lefty" mode, so the secondary click is always on the outside... whcih makes sense. I'm slightly ambidextrous. I would like this feature, too. I want my mouse on the left.

That's it for me. Don't think I'm missing much.


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## culo77 (Jun 14, 2002)

the only thing i can think of is........ummmmm........

i guess the fact that Programs come out first, a broader range of apps, and a broader range of PIRATED apps.

another thing i would like is MORE STORES CARRYING APPLE PRODUCTS. it suck that i have to travel 1 hour in traffic to get to compusa and 1 1/2 hours the the Apple store and i live in chicago??????? but if i need something for my HP I have a 3 bestbuy's and 2 circuit city's within 5 minutes from me.

SORRY IF I AM OF THE SUBJECT


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## Nafae (Jun 14, 2002)

I converted to a mac earlier this year, besides the obvious speed of windows, I miss alt-tabbing between two programs or documents.  I can switch to one (say, photoshop) edit something, then switch back to IE to keep reading, say, a tutorial.  Then I can just switchback with a quick keystroke!

Hmm.. that's all I can think of at the moment.


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## toast (Jun 14, 2002)

Nafae, try Command-Tab. You'll get a surprise .

I agree 1000% with uoba. General redraw is really faster. We tested this with a 500MHz PC under XP and my G3/500 OSX.1.5 iMac: 25 Photoshop files, each about 5Mb size.

XP just beats X completely. try if you don't believe it, but I'm sure you do.

The 'background apps when logout' function I did also find really cool.


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## gibbs (Jun 14, 2002)

I'd like to hear a response from people who use the latest build of jaguar....I'm so surprised that its not discussed more often.

How is jag's speed doing guys?


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## xaqintosh (Jun 14, 2002)

> I converted to a mac earlier this year, besides the obvious speed of windows, *I miss alt-tabbing between two programs or documents. I can switch to one (say, photoshop) edit something, then switch back to IE to keep reading, say, a tutorial. Then I can just switchback with a quick keystroke!*
> 
> Hmm.. that's all I can think of at the moment.



go to versiontracker and download liteswitch, it worx great.


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## Chibi15 (Jun 14, 2002)

Well - its hard to measure because many applications misbehave - like classic or system preferences on my Mac - but overall i think that application launch time is a little bit faster for fast-launching apps and a big improve for apps that launches rather slowly under 10.1 (like BBEdit) - the UI feels more responsive (thanks to Quartz Extreme) - you now actually can put a Quicktime Movie to the dock in slow-motion without problems - and the dock no longer slows down to a crawl when you minimize a window and the whole dock have to resize (because its to large) - the UI feels definetly more responsive - Applications in general feels a bit more faster - its not that much faster but i am using an early build and work on jaguar wont be finnished until mid of july


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## toast (Jun 15, 2002)

Because the question is "Which features ?", I'll add this one: I have 40% DivX AVI files that go wrong on my Mac (using DivXDoctor: audio truncated, too garbled for Quicktime, eof error), while all PC users I have around me just go on with zero problems on these. I had already posted to shout against the very, very poor integration of AVI by MacOS.

So that's another feature, I hope Steve'll read this soon


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## didde (Jun 15, 2002)

I just recently switched from Mac OS X to Win XP. I still have my TiBook at home and with me, wherever I go though.

Seriously guys. If you're doing the kind of work I am there is no way Mac can compare to Win XP / 2000. I'm sorry to have to say it but now I have been using XP for three months and for every day I regret not changing sooner.

First if all, the uptime on XP is quite a lot better for me than X (that might just appy to me though). And then, if you have to reboot the machine starts up in less than 30 seconds. With OS X on a dual GhZ G4 that took me at least 2 minutes depending on the network.

I work a lot using the network. Share files and projects that are on servers and so on. With X IF the Finder hangs during a network process you're basically screwed. Force-quit it and hope to god you don't have to reboot. On XP this works flawlessly.

Well, I guess what I wanted to say is that XP works ALOT better for me at work. I am not saying that it would for all of you. But the Mac community has this tendancy to become quite fanatical. What ever Apple throws out at us HAS TO BE good since it's Apple who has done it, right? I think we would be better off if we did not just swallow everything Apple produces... Maybe we should question them? How come we have to wait until 10.2 to get a decently fast OS? Come on, that is unacceptable...


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## uoba (Jun 15, 2002)

I am a Mac fanatic, but I have no problem accepting the competitions strong-points (even to the point of actually coping with using them )

I will never swap over to Windows (or Linux for that matter), because the overall workflow of Mac OS has always been more pleasant, creative and intuitive. (Though I'm going to have to invest in a PC laptop I'm afraid).

I think some of the problems you highlight Diddle are more specific to the fact that Windows dominates the computer world (you need to network with other Windows machines right, bound to be easier in XP )... However, your right about the startup speeds (though my workstation on OSX only gets rebooted/started up about 2-3 times a week (even though GoLive, Illustrator, and Photoshop are always open.)

Also, you are right, the Apple community are often blinded by their faith (me included )... but I'm glad to see the posts we have so far.

So, to sum up so far, we want:

1. That cool logout feature, whereby apps stay open.
2. Comparible UI speed (Plleaaazzzzeeee)!
3. Better media integration (DivX, AVI etc)
4. Mouse left-hand preferences (though isn't this down to the 3rd party, you can use that ol' archaic one-button thing in both hands right?!) Which leads me onto...
5. A 2-button mouse!!!! (with a scroll-wheel.)


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## aishafenton (Jun 15, 2002)

Yes, an apple mouse with a scroll wheel


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## fryke (Jun 15, 2002)

So, to sum things up and get rid of all the off-topic bashing...

1) Switch user (with apps staying open)
2) Alt-Tab, ah, no, we got that covered with Apple-Tab
3) Left-hand preferences for the mouse (pu-leese?! there's ONE button on a Mac mouse, just take it into the OTHER hand)

So, three features of Windows we want in Mac OS X, two of those being already kinda integrated? Okay, so let's HAVE that switching user feature.

(All other stuff like DivX integration aren't really features of Windows, they're just compatibility issues. UI speed is also not a 'feature'.)

Get on track and keep those _features_ you want from Windows rolling in.


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## toast (Jun 15, 2002)

I disagree: media integration is a feature. Quicktime sticks so close to the OS that reading or not reading AVIs really is part of OSX. I fond many software telling in their readmes: "This program won't avoid the following erros () because it's bug of Quicktime".

Debugging Quicktime so AVI can run smoothly is a feature to me.

By the way, I don't think we'll have either the PC mouse or the 'apps stay behind when changing user' thing before next century.


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## MacPain (Jun 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by toast _
> *I disagree: media integration is a feature. Quicktime sticks so close to the OS that reading or not reading AVIs really is part of OSX. I fond many software telling in their readmes: "This program won't avoid the following erros () because it's bug of Quicktime".
> *



actually the truncated sound issue ain't a bug in quicktime. AVI's were never meant to have mp3 soundtracks, to accomplish this the format was hacked so AVI-movies were able to include mp3 sound. i suggest you try out some normal (non-divx) AVI's, i'm sure they'll run fine.

for your divx AVI needs there's still videoLAN, which plays any divx movies just fine (at leat the ones i tested, and there weren't just a few.  ).


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## ccuilla (Jun 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by uoba _
> *
> 1. That cool logout feature, whereby apps stay open.*



This would be VERY easy to do in OS X. I suspect it will come if really desired by a lot of people. Probably a low priority right now.




> *2. Comparible UI speed (Plleaaazzzzeeee)!*



Cleary they are working this issue. Quartz Extreme is the first step. More will likely come. Two years from now we'll probably all have graphics cards/video chips capable of doing QE.




> *3. Better media integration (DivX, AVI etc)*



Probably coming given Apple's stated focus on the "digital hub".




> *4. Mouse left-hand preferences (though isn't this down to the 3rd party, you can use that ol' archaic one-button thing in both hands right?!) Which leads me onto...
> 
> 5. A 2-button mouse!!!! (with a scroll-wheel.) *



These are coming.

So far nothing insurmountable.

I'd like a lot of little UI tweaks. Better inter-platforme integration (SMB browsing, file format issues, etc.) Overall though, X is in very good shape. Most of what we need are more apps, and more users. Apple will get there I think. Right now there are something like 2 million X users. Steve says the goal is 5 million by the end of the year. They might just get there.

This will take some time. I hope by this time next year )S 9 is REALLY dead. That will have been a 2 year transition. Not too bad.


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## popey.marin (Jun 15, 2002)

Remember Mac OS X is a quite young OS compared to Win XP : 
Win XP is based on win NT5 (= 2000), that is itself based on NT4 (service pack 6 ...).
Remember what NT4 was in its early hours ...
Let Mac OS X get older, I'm sure you won't be disappointed. It is really a great base.


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## fryke (Jun 15, 2002)

Windows NT isn't older than Mac OS X, as OS X is based on Rhapsody, which was based on OpenStep, which was based on NeXT-Step. Early 90s it is. Mac OS X is 12 years old, I'd say.

The one feature of Windows I really crave for sometimes, is the ability to really maximise windows, so they span from edge to edge. I also often *hate* that Windows users do this all the time, but for browsing and other stuff, I'd like it.


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## uoba (Jun 15, 2002)

Spot on fryke, that's a good one!

(I do use IE on Windows that way, and I like it a lot).

(just a quick question for those using XP, does the above feature work as well? Since, XP's UI is bloated somewhat (which is nice on high resolution screens, but I checked out a laptop in a store today and the res wasn't great, making XP look like Learn the ABC's of Computing On Windows 2000 and previous, the UI was pretty non-descript, and less obtrusive.)


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## xaqintosh (Jun 15, 2002)

I like the feature where a letter is underlined in various options and you can type that letter to choose that option, example:

help

press L

help is clicked


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## Nafae (Jun 15, 2002)

liteswitch works GREAT!!  I love it, much better than alt-tab with windows!

So other than that... All we need is speed!

I do like the way windows handles networking, allowing you to check up on what's connected, what isn't.  I hate having to launch IE to see if my network settings were indeed correct.  videoLAN works well for avi, but I still wish quicktime could handle that whole shabang.

And a scroll wheel 

EDIT: I just recall two other things: Transfer time estimate when tranferring large files, and a "Replace All" when copying and replacing files.  Currently you only have the choice of "Replace" and "Cancel", and if you are replacing 5 files you must click "Replace" 5 times.


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## popey.marin (Jun 16, 2002)

fryke :
The open source part of OS X is old, that's true (base on FreeBSD). But most problems concern the interface : nobody complain about the multitask, or about the memory handling. Speed, logout with applications open ... all that are on the not opens source part, and this one is not as old as rhapsody.

Another feature that I would like to seed is virtual screens : the ability to many totally independent screens, that you can choose, for example by hitting ctrl-option-F1/F2/F3 ... On one screen, you can develop a web page, an you can test it on another screen ... way easier than having many layers of windows I think.


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## toast (Jun 16, 2002)

A fine thing would be also to get a REAL "Copy File" function, as in Windows. Command-C Command-V is fine but a Command-X to cut a file would be great too.


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## anrkngl (Jun 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by toast _
> *Nafae, try Command-Tab. You'll get a surprise .*



I'll have to disagree with you there. You can go from IE to PS to IE with the same keystroke and you don't have to tab through ALL your open apps. Also, I'd like a keystroke for going between app windows that is consistent. cmd-opt-tab would be nice.

(ok, liteswitchx does this. Now integrate it into the os, and I'll be happy)


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## Dazzla (Jun 16, 2002)

The ability to cut and paste files and fast user switching.

Oh, and cmd + shift + tab goes backwards


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## Annihilatus (Jun 16, 2002)

Hey guys, I was about to become a first-time Mac user but this thread has effectively discouraged me from doing such a thing. Not being able to run DivX seems like the worst sacrifice of them all. Inability to use keyboards like the Microsoft Natural Pro and the Intellimouse to their full extent is one thing, inability to task-switch properly and maximize is a sacrifice I don't mind too much, late-released software and expensive hardware that can't be upgraded is something I'd definitely ignore but not playing DivX is ridiculous.

I would not want to use Virtual PC (that I would have to buy for 200$) on top of extremely expensive hardware to emulate a PC that's capable of doing something my supposedly superior machine is incapable of doing. Restricting myself in this way is unacceptable.

I really wanted a Mac too. To have someone say that a machine that costs 1000$ more (in Canada) does less and is in fact slower? Maybe I was wrong to want to switch. There's no such thing as a perfect computer after all.

Andre


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## BlingBling 3k12 (Jun 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Annihilatus _
> *Not being able to run DivX seems like the worst sacrifice of them all. Inability to use keyboards like the Microsoft Natural Pro and the Intellimouse to their full extent is one thing*


for divx, search around, there are ways to get it to work easily.
and for the MS Natural Pro & Intellimouse, just plug them in and they will work...


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## uoba (Jun 16, 2002)

Have you spent time using OSX? As much as I started this thread, I did state that I would never ever swap OS's! If this was a 'what should Windows take from OSX' thread, then I think you'll find the list a bit long 

***NOTE**** THIS iS NOT A REASON TO START MAKING THIS INTO THAT EXACT THREAD PLEAZZZEEEEE   !!!


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## Nafae (Jun 16, 2002)

yeah you can use an intellimouse, that's what i use!

yeah you can view divx files, it's called VLC

So you have to buy apps?

We are discussing how we want more integration of these downloadable features with the OS.  I don't believe you read a few of the posts very carefully


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## Annihilatus (Jun 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by BlingBling 3k12 _
> *
> for divx, search around, there are ways to get it to work easily.
> and for the MS Natural Pro & Intellimouse, just plug them in and they will work... *



They will work, but not to their full extent, that's what i was stressing. Last i checked, there was nothing out there to allow for the back and forward buttons on the mouse to function. Also, no driver apparently allows the natural pro keyboard to make use of the back, forward, mail and media player buttons.

Andre


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## The Madhatter (Jun 16, 2002)

Annihilatus, DivX movies can be watched and enjoyed to their "full extent" just like in Windows, only sometimes it takes a freeware app to convert something, but nothing over two minutes time.  DivX in OS X works wonderfully (it could only be better if you could do everything in Quicktime), and it is nothing to be scared of.


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## Excalibur (Jun 16, 2002)

DiVX plays fine for me... ALL in QuickTime. The major issues were the old MP42 DiVX files but that has been addressed and fixed a few days ago. Here is a lost of all the available DiVX tools for OSX. All new DiVX files are supported no problem.

http://www.versiontracker.com/mp/new_search.m?productDB=mac&mode=Quick&OS_Filter=MacOSX&search=divx 

Hope that helps you out there.

http://www.versiontracker.com/mp/new_search.m?productDB=mac&mode=Quick&OS_Filter=MacOSX&search=MS+MPEG4 

MS MPEG4v1 and V2 codecs. This will get the older DiVX files to work.


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