# Dock in right side of menu bar



## Piet Keizer (Apr 16, 2001)

Both dock and menu bar take more place than they need.

So the dock needs an option to be put over the menu bar, on the right side.

Tell me if you agree and if you think it's important!


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## VGZ (Apr 16, 2001)

You mean something similar to TaskMenuBar?


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## Piet Keizer (Apr 19, 2001)

Exactly. Use it and you'll never want to go back to the Dock, A-Dock, Drag Thing or whatever unelegant desktop clutter the world is offering.


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## atoms (Apr 19, 2001)

I agree that your idea would make a great option. It seems that a lot of real estate it is tied up with this stuff. 

I generally have the dock set as small as possible. Most of the time there would be room to cram it into the menu bar.

I would also love to see (or hear about) an easy way to modify the size of the menubar (and it's fonts and images) itself.

Ive been waiting for my trusty old NEC Multisync 4fge 15 inch monitor to die, but it just keeps on working and looking great. But I dunno if the designers at Apple (or anywhere else these days) do much testing on an 800x600 display...


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## scruffy (Apr 19, 2001)

But if the dock were on the right side of the menu bar, where would I put my mouse-tracker eyeballs?


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## VGZ (Apr 20, 2001)

Something to consider is the clock and apps that have menus that go all the way to the edge of the screen on the monitors of iMacs.  I have had apps that the menus went all the way to the clock and my monitors is 17" @ 1280x1024.

It would be a nice option but could cause problems w/ smaller monitors and the clock.


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## Piet Keizer (Apr 26, 2001)

When the menu doesn't leave enough space, there are several options:
- the dock might minimize only horizontally,
- the dock might turn into one button that shows the dock when moved over or pressed
- you drag it out of the menu bar, and use it the way it works right now (!).

At this moment, the dock is especially nasty when Classic apps are running. The bottom of windows very often end up behind the dock and white squares appear when the windows are moved.

ps. scruffy, those eye balls will certainly appear as a dockling one day.


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## endian (Apr 26, 2001)

ick, no, i'd *hate* this! what would be the point? If the dock takes up too much space, make it smaller or hide it.



> At this moment, the dock is especially nasty when Classic apps are running. The bottom of windows very often end up behind the dock and white squares appear when the windows are moved.



This is a redraw issue with Classic, and has nothing to do with the dock. Hopefully Apple can work out a fix; if not, well, Classic won't be around forever. Most Carbon apps know not to resize behind the dock already.




> scruffy, those eye balls will certainly appear as a dockling one day.



Only if Apple changes the dockling api to allow docklings to find out their location.


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## tie (Apr 26, 2001)

I personally like the Dock best at the left side of the screen, just visually.  I usually have it at the right side, though, because Classic apps don't like it at the bottom or left.  I don't know if I'd like it in the menubar.  I just wish popup menus in OS X were faster.  If the dock orientation menu popped up just a quarter of a second faster, that would make me happy.  (Or the recent items menu, which it takes about 2 seconds to rebuild every time I click on it.  Why isn't this just a folder like in OS 9?)


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## Piet Keizer (Apr 27, 2001)

> ick, no, i'd *hate* this! what would be the point? If the dock takes up too much space, make it smaller or hide it.


After all, it's indeed a matter of feeling, just like Endian puts it. Like my idea gives Endian the creeps, the current situation gives me the creeps.

My point is the trilemma I get because of the unusable screenspace to both sides of the dock. It makes me want to make the dock bigger, smaller and invisible at the same time.

Bigger, to make that unusable screen space at least *seem* useful. I know this is doesn't really make sense, but intuition is even more important.
And smaller, to make my screen more useful while still seeing the dock.
And invisible, to make my screen really useful and to get rid of the redraw issues (which may indeed be solved a different way).

The possibility to change position and size of the dock every minute wouldn't solve my trilemma. I want all options at the same time!

That's why I think the dock-inside-menu-bar would be the best solution. Or maybe seperating horizontal and vertical resizing?


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## VGZ (Apr 27, 2001)

Just thought of something else.  If you put the Dock into the menubar it will be hidden when you open a Classic app.

Personally I use the Dock pinned to the right-side of the screen at the bottom with NeXbar on the right edge with other apps in it.


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## thedbp (May 3, 2001)

There is a very easy shortcut keystroke to hide/show the dock.  Option-Command-D.  Also, if you turn off magnification, it makes the Dock less intrusive.  TaskMenuBar was OK, but it doesn't offer the functionality of the dock... I'm not sure I understand all this resistance to the dock anyway ... its not like you HAVE to use it or even see if you don't want to, and it does so many useful things ... I mean geez, lay off, its better, more complete, and offers more functionality than any other appswitcher/document holder/folder browser/app launcher/etc. out there.  Leave the dock alone.  Its doing the best it can, and I've yet to see anyone make something better.
zjd


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## erdunbar (May 22, 2001)

> _Originally posted by thedbp _
> * its not like you HAVE to use it or even see if you don't want to, and it does so many useful things ... I mean geez, lay off, its better, more complete, and offers more functionality than any other appswitcher/document holder/folder browser/app launcher/etc. out there.  Leave the dock alone.  Its doing the best it can, and I've yet to see anyone make something better.
> zjd *



Please, tell me how to delete the dock. You are forced to use it, like it or not. There's no way to hide it fully. Having it pop-up whenever you pass the cursor over the bottom of the screen is a pain in the ars!

And, in fact someone did make something better. Apple did it with the application switcher, the OS 7/8/9 Apple menu, application menu, and launcher!!! The dock is suffering from the same problem that nearly every recent Office suite suffers from: tries to be everything to everyone with lots of creeping featuritis.

PS How do you move the bloody dock to the side of the screen. I've seen people write about it but I can't for the life of me use a control, command, shift, option click or find a preference which will allow me to do it!!!


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## thedbp (May 23, 2001)

There's a few places you'll likely be able to find "Docking Maneuvers."  Try www.stepwise.com, www.macosxapps.com, or www.versiontracker.com.  one of them HAS to have it.  It lets you do all sorts of neat things with the dock, which just might give you a fresh perspective on this useful tool.

Also, keep in mind that this is the first time we've seen the Dock.  It will change based on our requests to apple.  So use it - it isn't going anywhere.  Figure out what you DO like, what you'd like changed, and tell Apple.  I figure in 1 year the Dock will be a very different animal from what it is now, just as it was very different in 10.0 than it was in the PB.  Frankly I miss my control strip terribly, and 'docklings' just get lost in the shuffle of icons ... well, any way you stack it, the OS is going to keep changing and evolving.  I'm not worried in the least.

on a side note, have you seen an Apple store?  I live about 1 hr from the McClean store, and made sure to be there opening day.  Can I say "pass me that drool-guard"?

zjd


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## erdunbar (May 23, 2001)

> _Originally posted by thedbp _
> *There's a few places you'll likely be able to find "Docking Maneuvers."  Try www.stepwise.com, www.macosxapps.com, or www.versiontracker.com.  one of them HAS to have it.  It lets you do all sorts of neat things with the dock, which just might give you a fresh perspective on this useful tool.
> 
> Also, keep in mind that this is the first time we've seen the Dock.  It will change based on our requests to apple.  So use it - it isn't going anywhere.  Figure out what you DO like, what you'd like changed, and tell Apple.  I figure in 1 year the Dock will be a very different animal from what it is now, just as it was very different in 10.0 than it was in the PB.  Frankly I miss my control strip terribly, and 'docklings' just get lost in the shuffle of icons ... well, any way you stack it, the OS is going to keep changing and evolving.  I'm not worried in the least.
> ...



If Apple doesn't do the evolving others certainly will.

BTW I found something that gave me hope:
http://asm.vercruesse.de/
ASM 1.1.1 (Application Switcher Menu) resurrects the ASM from OS 8/9 in its original form (now we need the old application switcher back & I'll be happy).


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## Tigger (May 23, 2001)

I don't think I would like it, nonetheless I voted with yes, cause even if I wouldn't do it, I want to be able to do it...


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## LÃ¼ftwaffle (May 29, 2001)

*I would like an option to get rid of it!
* 

It's bloody annoying, get's in the way of many things and violates the "Human Interface Guidelines" (As set out by Apple themselves). I for my part prefer DragThing. 

 Kill the Dock !


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## aishafenton (Jun 2, 2001)

Why such hatred?

I agree that the dock could be better.. but I don't understand (some of) the Mac communities hatred of the dock? When it is one million times better than the classic approach!!! 

The dock does take up space.. so why not use the auto-hide feature??
It's great! It takes up no space at all and when you mouse down you can get a full sized dock pop-up??

Regardless I'm sure the dock will improve with age..


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## apb3 (Jun 2, 2001)

It's all a matter of opinion obviously. I don't think anyone on either side of the issue needs to get all hot and bothered about it or about the opinions of others. I happen to like the dock - a lot.
The only thing I don't like is the fact that we have the redundant menu bar at the top. I guess you could say the dock is the redundant piece of the pie, but as I said, I happen to like the dock so I'd rather lose the menu bar.
I realize that apps need their menus but surely those menus could be implemented within the app window. If the apps make their own menus in their own windows, then that just leaves the clock and the apple menu everyone, it seems except me, begged apple to replace. But, you've got to admit the "Apple Menu" in its current incarnation isn't really the apple menu at all - at least not what it used to be. The clock is easily implemented in the dock.
I've sent feedback to apple re: this but am interested in others' opinions.
Also, I'm no programmer but how easy would it be to kill the menu bar? How deeply ingrained is this part of the UI and how involved would extricating it from the overall UI be?


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## thedbp (Jun 2, 2001)

The reason the menu bar is there is because on windows, and countless other OSes, you may never be quite sure where your menus will be.  If they are window-dependant, they get moved and shuffled around, it is inconsistent.  The Mac way is to always have them in the same place - so you always know where they are in relation to where the mouse is, etc.  Its a reference point more than anything else, and its a necessary part of the UI.  Both for new users trying to learn the system (its very easy to figure out that you ALWAYS go to the top of the screen to pick commands), and power users who have so many open windows that searching for each individual menu bar would be distracting, time consuming, and pointless.

thedbp


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## erdunbar (Jun 2, 2001)

> _Originally posted by aishafenton _
> *Why such hatred?*
> 
> I agree that the dock could be better.. but I don't understand (some of) the Mac communities hatred of the dock? When it is one million times better than the classic approach!!!
> ...



Yeah, I get the amusing feeling that the dock will improve to the point that it's a modification on the OS 9 Application Switcher  . Seriously though, I've been giving the dock a lot of thought since I've tried to get used to it.

To make OS X/the dock usable I've all but turned the dock into the OS 9 application switcher. I've used Docking Maneuvers to turn on pinning and orientation of the dock (my dock now sits on the right-top side of the screen). I've installed X-assist so that I have the app switcher menu back (I don't use the dock to switch programmes often b/c it takes more time to figure out which icon to click on & which app is open than it does to pull up the ASM). The other bonus to X-assist is that I now have more than 5 recent app items (the "apple" menu is especially useless b/c 5 is too little and I don't use recent docs, ever!!!!). I also turned on the trash can so I now have a trash can on the desktop rather than in the tiny dock!!!

PS FYI Apple has BUILT-IN support for desktop trashcan and for pinning/orientation of dock. It's as if they had an idea people wanted both items but some idiot decided that people would like their dock at the bottom of the screen, and had no need for a trash can (dock trash is pretty useless as I've already accidentally dropped files into the trash rather than into an app). The only dock trash thing I'd like is eject disk.

There are a few things I would now like to be able to do with the dock:
(a) change the background colour of the dock to WHITE. No translucence, no blue, but WHITE. The icons are fuzzy with the blue striped back ground (I have small icons). It's as if Apple went for style over substance. What a disappointment (& my eyes are good... imagine how people who are far-sighted suffer with OS X's colour scheme).

(b) prevent the dock from being changed once I have chosen the default two or three apps I want included in the dock.

BTW It was mentioned that it was possible to HIDE the dock. That's a lark, because whenever you move the cursor over that part of the screen you accidentally pull up the dock... that's extremely irritating. I tolerate it in Windoze b/c you're forced to use a taskbar but it really bugs me. I've not managed to get used to the here-i-am-here-i'm-not behaviour of the taskbar. The dock behaves EXACTLY the same way, and is equally useless in that respect. I still would RATHER have the taskbar than the dock in its default incarnation (the Start menu *is* useful). The way I've customized the dock now, it's sort-of livable. Unfortunately, there are still serious problems which make it less useful than it could be.

BTW #2 In a recent message someone pointed a link to an article in which it was mentioned that the #1 complaint Apple had on OS X was its slow GUI response time. The #2 complaint was with the DOCK!!!! It sucks, and there's a consensus opinion (apparently, but seemingly not here) that it SUCKS.

I have no objection to it being possible to have the dock in its current incarnation. Some people found the OS 9 Launcher useful (it was too limited an app launcher for me to ever use it for more than a few seconds... BUT, BUT, BUT, it's a more functional app launcher than the DOCK because it could have different folders!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!).

But, the dock is useless to me in its present (10.0.3) incarnation! It needs to be customizable. Pinning, orientation, desktop trash, option to turn off adding icons, option to have it function more-or-less like OS 9 app switcher, and re-introducing the app switcher menu!!!

I spent a hell of a long time learning how to use OS 1-9. The learning process started when I was 9 years old!!! (I was 9 when we got our first Mac 128 in 1984) The pattern recognition (trash at bottom right, clock at top right, app switcher at top right, app switcher menu at top right) is well entrenched, some of the patterns will be more frustrating to unlearn than will be worth the gain in efficiency.

Perhaps there might be more efficient ways (with a statistical significance) of doing these things, but, are they sufficiently more efficient for *ME* and for the millions of users already used to the current techniques to justify the change. It's not like the OS 9 solutions are bad. They've been fine-tuned over a long time. In the design stage I wish the developers would've kept the following sentences in mind: Change for the sake of change is worthless (Jones syndrome with their latest fashions). Resistance to change for the sake of tradition is equally worthless (religious people and morality (well, ok, pretty much anything)). There are many equally parsimonious (roughly meaning equally effective) methods of completing a task and they will vary person-to-person. Having a million options defeats the purpose of options and reduces efficiency. Having NO options is also counter to efficient operations.

Anyway, off to the gym, Eric.


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## Matrix Agent (Jun 9, 2001)

Anyone know of a mod that will allow me to separate the apps and document sections into two separate docks? I think that would be great.


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## LÃ¼ftwaffle (Jun 15, 2001)

Well, thanx to some helpful souls at www.trickX.com I was able to *remove* the sodding dock *for good!*  After all, this is some incarnation of UNIX and you can do almost anything in UNIX.


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## tismey (Jun 17, 2001)

> _Originally posted by erdunbar _
> *
> (I don't use the dock to switch programmes often b/c it takes more time to figure out which icon to click on & which app is open than it does to pull up the ASM).
> *


Tinkertool gives you options that make the running app clearer, and also that make hidden app's icons transparent, which makes the Dock a lot clearer to use, imho


> *
> (a) change the background colour of the dock to WHITE. No translucence, no blue, but WHITE. The icons are fuzzy with the blue striped back ground
> *


There are a few hacks knocking about to do this, I think it's on TrickX to start with. Involves some fiddling with PDFs, but should have the desired effect. I agree that some options over this would be nice, but as RacerX and others have eloquently pointed out, Apple probably want OSX to remain as 'standard looking' as possible until its interface becomes as recognisable as its predecessor's (otherwise how will anyone recognise that it's an Apple when they show a computer screen on Buffy?)


> *
> (b) prevent the dock from being changed once I have chosen the default two or three apps I want included in the dock.
> *


Yeah, this is annoying. But I guess that's something we'll get when Apple decides to unlock the dock options 'officially'


> *
> (the Start menu *is* useful
> *


What for? Can't remember the last time I used mine...


> *
> I have no objection to it being possible to have the dock in its current incarnation. Some people found the OS 9 Launcher useful (it was too limited an app launcher for me to ever use it for more than a few seconds... BUT, BUT, BUT, it's a more functional app launcher than the DOCK because it could have different folders!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!).
> *


THere's plenty of stuff you can do to get folders in your dock - Snard is good as a combined prefs/app launcher. And a simple alias with folder aliases in it will let you navigate away all over your desktop...


> *
> It needs to be customizable. Pinning, orientation, desktop trash, option to turn off adding icons, option to have it function more-or-less like OS 9 app switcher, and re-introducing the app switcher menu!!!
> *


Desktop Trash is also available from tinkertool. The option to turn off adding icons is something I've been complaining about too, but apparently it IS possible with a bit of messing about.

Personally, I have no problems with the dock at all - I'm using it on the rhs of my Tibook screen at the moment to take advantage of the 'Mega-wide'(tm) screen proportions, but didn't mind it along the bottom. I always used the control strip (with a mod called Handyman) and the tear-off app switcher along the bottom of the screen instead of the Apple menu and the switcher menu anyway. So the Dock works better for *ME*than it seems to for *YOU*. Swings, roundabouts, horses, courses, each, own.


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## LÃ¼ftwaffle (Jun 17, 2001)

> _Originally posted by tismey _
> *
> Tinkertool gives you options that make the running app clearer, and also that make hidden app's icons transparent, which makes the Dock a lot clearer to use, imho.
> *



Well, I use DragThing (as I did in Os 9.1) as *replacement* for the dock, which is gone now and I don't miss it at all. I think it's a superfluous gimmick and DragThing is *way* better than the dock. They should have incorporated that instead. Those floating and constantly resizing icons are utterly useless and remind me of the little bouncy Mac animation found in MS Office products.


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## tismey (Jun 18, 2001)

Yeah, a mate of mine is a Dragthing fan as well - I never really got into it before, but it does appear to have been providing a Dock-like function for a long time before Apple implemented their own Dock.

I guess this is what has always made Macs a great platform - Apple provide an interface, and then loads of other people come along and make it better. Let's face it, we're stuck with the Dock, so if you don't like it then find something else to do the job better, as sundry other people on the board have done.Apple are hardly going to remove such a massive section of the interface now are they, regardless of how many people whinge about it.


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## Fahrvergnuugen (Jun 19, 2001)

I can understand how some of you get frustrated because the dock takes up too much real estate. However, in my situation, I am dealing with Dual 19" monitors at 1600X1200. Real estate is no object. My opinion of the dock comes straight from the functionality of it. 

Although its not perfect, the concept is great. 

My biggest gripe: you can't ctrl-click on a docked window and close it. You have to expand it out of the dock and then command-w it.
Second: Why have a dockling for iTunes? When you ctrl click on the iTunes icon, it should give you all of the features that the iTunes dockling has...for the price of one icon. The same should hold true for every other app.

They could make it so you could get rid of the semi transparent part of the dock that the icons stick to. If you could make it so there were just a bunch of floating icons that slid up from the bottom of the screen, you could click the desktop between them.
Just a thought for the real estate problem.

Just my $.02


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