# Apple or Windows? Which is better?



## eliezer (May 10, 2005)

I've always told people that Apple is way better than Windows, but the only disadvantage is that a lot of software doesn't work on Apple's.

And then they tell me some crap about how Apple's aren't simple to use or something ridiculous like that.


But the last few days the lack of software for Mac has been annoying me and I am wondering whether Windows is perhaps better than Apple.

Windows might not look as nice and everything else, but on a Windows you can do whatever you want.

Can someone please explain to me why Apple IS better than Windows.

PS - I am 16 years old, so don't start telling me loads of complex reasons why Apple is better than Windows. I'm a regular home user, not a web designer, or graphics designer or programmer.

Thanks


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## Randman (May 10, 2005)

It's monitor not "moniter". Should fix your sig, and/or activate spellcheck. 

I'd be interested in hearing what software applications don't have a peer on the Mac side. 

Rather than rehashing all the old chestnuts, why do YOU use Macs? What do you like about them? Why don't you own a PC if you're not a designer or programmer?


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## eliezer (May 10, 2005)

ye. tell me.

i have mac's at home because my dad gets Mac's because he is says there better.


why is mac better than windows?



im sure there are 10,000 people on this site that can convince me that Apple is better than Windows.


i don't need someone to ask me why i use a mac!
<hr>
nearly every program on the web doesn't work on a mac.

for example, i can't connect my phone to my computer because it's a mac.

i can't convert files to .3gp and get it to play on my phone properly, because it's a mac.

there are 100s of applications that run on windows and not on mac - and there is no mac version


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## Zammy-Sam (May 10, 2005)

Eliezer, I don't think such a thread will lead anywhere. 
An operating system is a system you work on. The applications you need for your work or entertainment specify your choice on the os. If you are into gaming, then you might want to use windows as a platform. If you are into software developing you might rather pick unix. If you are into graphic design, macosx might be your choice. See, it's so much dependant on what you want to do with it. Most of the apps I use are better on macosx. Together with some hardware-related aspects this became the reason I chose mac.
Your questions is like: what's the best car? Can you say that?


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## Randman (May 10, 2005)

Name the programs? And just because you can't get your phone to work doesn't mean it's Apple's fault More likely operator error. I send video to my Nokia all of the time. Not a problem yet. And I can sync my smartphone via a bluetooth-enabled pda to bypass the lack of MLSyncability so far.

You ask questions but you're afraid to answer them yourself?


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## Zammy-Sam (May 10, 2005)

eliezer, your sword is shining blue, isn't it?


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## Randman (May 10, 2005)

How's it going Z-S?

Elize, what's better, an XBox or a PS?


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## gohliangsong (May 10, 2005)

eliezer said:
			
		

> for example, i can't connect my phone to my computer because it's a mac.
> 
> i can't convert files to .3gp and get it to play on my phone properly, because it's a mac.



What phone are you using? I've had no problems connecting my Sony Ericsson T39m, T68i and T610 with my Mac over Bluetooth.

And to create 3gp content, you need to use QuickTime Pro.


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## Pengu (May 10, 2005)

what sort of phone do you have? and what software have you got that supports 3gpp better than Quicktime!?


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## eliezer (May 10, 2005)

i dont bluetooth. dont worry about the movie on phone problem. thats in another forum. i have a nokia 7600 btw.

im a regular home user, are you saying that the windows operating system is better than the mac one for regular users?



i thought this site would be full of people that love apple's and people that are trying to convert the whole world to using mac's. lol. i was wrong.


i really cannot believe that you people are telling me that the only thing mac is good for is graphics design!


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## eliezer (May 10, 2005)

i have a nokia 7600 and i can view files converted to .3gp by imTOO converter for Windows, on my phone.

but not qt pro converted files


btw, to send files to my phone i use email. but now email is costing me money on my phone. so i don't want to use that.

i'm getting a bluetooth for one night tonight to what its like and if it works


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## Randman (May 10, 2005)

All you had to do was search a little and you'd find plenty to back whichever train of thought floats your boat.
  If OSX is too complicated for you, go back to Windows. Simple as that.


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## fryke (May 10, 2005)

eliezer: Make sure you don't troll too much. Are you really interested in knowing why Macs are better than PCs? Or do you just believe it ain't true and won't listen to our arguments, anyway?

Well, I'll add mine, anyway: I don't have to worry about virus protection etc. on my Mac. I can actually _read_ my E-Mail without having to suspect it might contain something that will bring my computer to its knees. That lets me work instead of worrying. And I like that. Apple: Better.


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## evildan (May 10, 2005)

eliezer, it's "Graphic Design" not "Graphics Design" and I don't believe that's what anyone is telling you at all.

What we ARE telling you is that for us, Apple is better. No one here is trying to convert you to liking something you don't. I think the reason you're finding it difficult to get a straight answer out of us is because we didn't join this forum to defend our decision to be on the Macintosh platform.

You're young - so let me give you a little lesson in life. You should never have to be told what you like or dislike, that's something you have to discover for yourself. This isn't third-period math class, where you're buddy has the answer to question #3 on the test. What type of computer you use, the vcr you buy, the car you drive and cloths you wear are things you get to decide on your own.

If you like PCs, use a PC; if you like Macs, use a mac - seems simple to me.


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## Lycander (May 10, 2005)

How is it that he is jumping back and forth from typing like an English student, to typing like a, erm... 16 year old that he claims to be? Wow, mind boggling. It's like the Superman / Clark Kent effect.

I must have missed something, I didn't hear anyone say "Macs are only good for graphic design" except you eliezer, but it sounded more like a question than statement. Well maybe someone did say something, but I have a tendency to filter out things I don't want to hear/read 

Anyhoo, I have one friend who is a musician. He uses his Mac to edit recordings and such. I'm tone deaf so I don't quite understand all the work involved. But yeah, he tells me Macs are great in the music and sound line of work. Especially when recording, you really don't want a noisy computer humming in the background.

As far as Windows vs. MacOS... Danger! Danger!



			
				eliezer said:
			
		

> im a regular home user, are you saying that the windows operating system is better than the mac one for regular users?
> 
> i thought this site would be full of people that love apple's and people that are trying to convert the whole world to using mac's. lol. i was wrong.


Ahh, there's your problem. You assume to much. Don't assume. If the word "assume" makes you giggle, my apologies, replace is it with "presume."

Regarding your first statement, no one said that, you just presumed that on your own will. And as for your second statement... not every Mac user is a raving maniac. Saying things like you are saying just makes us look bad. So chillax.


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## olivier.marian (May 10, 2005)

Zammy has a good point.

I have been using PCs for ages.
I have a mac mini for 10 days. I am happy because it's small, allows me to test the mac world, and because I found it easier to make some things: I created a DVD of my newborn child in 30 minutes. There are some PC applications allowing you to do so, but really to my mind Apple makes it simpler for many things.

I use CUBASE on my PC for audio recordings
I use Garageband on the mac and it's great for some parts apparently, and i'm just discovering it.
I play Farcry on my PC.
I will definitly use the mac for Pictures, and Movies management.

Back to Zammy's point: What do you do with computers ? then what is YOUR best choice ? or do you even have to make a choice ? I'll keep my PC for Farcry and will discover more easy things to do on my Mac.

It seems to me that the mac world is opening to many things, but still there seems to be some things missing in the mac world (games come late, application  ?? i don't know... I have been looking for a USB Wifi dongle and there seems not to be much mac compatible...)


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## xarcom (May 10, 2005)

I don't know why everyone is all worked up over this, I think eliezer's question is sincere. Unfortunately the answer to that question is very subjective.  I use my ibook as my main machine (I guess what could be called average home user use: email, web surfing, digital content like photo's and music) and I have no complaints. If I want to play a game, obviously I boot up my PC because most just aren't available on Macs.. I think that will change though as Apple gets more market share.. but for the moment I still use my PC for certain things.  I personally prefer OSX to XP (as I'm sure many people here do as well) and again thats personal preference. 

I like my mac because I can do what I want without having to reboot 6 times and its just a more elegant OS. Also for work (unix) I can still use it which isn't the case for my PC.

Basically, Macs are renown for their ability to efficiently and easily manage digital media (pictures, movies, music)... so if thats your thing... you might come back to your mac after trying to do that stuff on your PC... It can still be done on your PC... but its just not as easy...

In conclusion, the best thing to do is to try using a PC for a while.. and then you'll know which is best for you.


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## pds (May 10, 2005)

umm - enter the nit-picker... 

You can't compare Apple to Windows. Apple is a computer company, Windows is an operating system. 

If you get straight what you want to compare, you can do so. For every type of software that runs on Windows, there is a comparable app that runs on Mac OS. It may be the same exact program, or a similar one written by another company. How each one works, whether the Mac OS app or the Windows exe completes the task better, is a matter of subjective analysis. 

Or you could go the other way and compare Apple machines to - Toshibas, Dells, Compaqs or others. 
I still have two LCIIs running System 7.5 and being used on a daily basis, and a couple dead pentium IIs stuffed under the bed.  Hands down the equipment rocks. (admittedly though - build quality has suffered a bit of late).


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## Lt Major Burns (May 10, 2005)

my mac is brilliant because it's solid, very stable, dependable, and i can do my work on it.

i could do my work on a pc, just as easily. but i like my mac.  it's a nicer way of doing things - everything is impressive on a daily basis - something actually makes me go wow! at least once or twice a week... i like that.  it's pleasant, and stable, and fast.  there's something extra - noone loves pc's, yet as soon as i got a mac, my geekiness soared.... i love her


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## Viro (May 10, 2005)

eliezer said:
			
		

> i really cannot believe that you people are telling me that the only thing mac is good for is graphics design!



Nonsense. You are completely misunderstanding Zammy's point. He's giving you an example. You need to specify exactly what software you are trying to use and as others have said, any software available on Windows will almost certainly have a similar alternative on OS X.

Personally, I use OS X mainly because it is UNIX done right. I know, some traditional UNIX gurus will complain about how OS X doesn't adhere to UNIX standards (like ignoring most of what goes on in /etc), but for my needs it suffices. I get all the open source applications I need via fink, and I get to use commercial software like MS Office to interact with the rest of the working world that has standardized on Microsoft Windows. 

There is also TexShop, a brilliant piece of software that makes working with LaTeX fun. I don't think you have anything similar on Windows, or Linux for that matter. If there is, tell me so I can tell my supervisor who is stuck on Windows! Related to LaTeX is BibDesk, a bibliography manager that to my knowledge has no equal on Windows or Linux. Sure, there are commercial alternatives, but BibDesk is free . 

On the office suite side, Office 2004 is available for the Mac. Doesn't run as well as the Windows version, but it works. For presentations, Keynote blows Powerpoint away in terms of visual presentation and it won't be available on the PC for the visible future.

There is nothing that I need on Windows that I don't have on the Mac. Well, that's a lie. I'd normally need a de-fragmenting tool on Windows, an Anti-Virus package, and some other maintenance tool like Norton to keep the awful registry in good shape. There aren't any spyware cleaners like Spybot or Ad-Aware on OS X either. So I guess there are loads of software that I need on Windows, but aren't available (or needed) on OS X .


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## ljc (May 10, 2005)

My powerbook G4 is the most be beautiful toy I ever played with, and that is it.

As a developer, I really would prefer to have a intel, to be able to run different OSs and to be able to find answers to my problems at the Internet, without paying, and without having to relearn the MAC way, that is completely different of the others. And don't tell it is different to be better, it is different to be different.

I just have this crap because it is what my school gave me.


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## Viro (May 10, 2005)

ljc said:
			
		

> My powerbook G4 is the most be beautiful toy I ever played with, and that is it.
> 
> As a developer, I really would prefer to have a intel, to be able to run different OSs and to be able to find answers to my problems at the Internet, without paying, and without having to relearn the MAC way, that is completely different of the others. And don't tell it is different to be better, it is different to be different.
> 
> I just have this crap because it is what my school gave me.



I don't understand your point. What other OSes are you really missing? You can run any x86 based OS if you invest in Virtual PC. If you want Linux, you can run it natively on PPC (I used to do it until Tiger came out).

Of course, if you are interested in developing for .NET, you are stuck on Windows since Mono isn't really an alternative. Java runs really well on OS X though.

I develop a lot, and OS X is no worse than Windows or Linux in that department.


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## lilbandit (May 10, 2005)

ljc just go and get a cheapo Dell laptop if that's what you feel you need. I'm not having a go just saying the obvious. The rest of us have better thing to do than listen to this kind of bs


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## michaelsanford (May 10, 2005)

No viruses or spyware for Apple...if you need a reason that's a pretty darn good one.


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## Cat (May 10, 2005)

> There is also TexShop, a brilliant piece of software that makes working with LaTeX fun. I don't think you have anything similar on Windows, or Linux for that matter. If there is, tell me so I can tell my supervisor who is stuck on Windows! Related to LaTeX is BibDesk, a bibliography manager that to my knowledge has no equal on Windows or Linux. Sure, there are commercial alternatives, but BibDesk is free



Hear, hear! Absolutely right. I would defnitely miss things like that on a Windows computer. The Macintosh platform is better than Windows because it allows a magnificent interaction of hard-core Unix with a very useable Graphic User Interface. You have all the strenght of the Command Line and all the interactivity and overview of Point 'n Click and Drag 'n Drop. You can run X11 apps alongside with Word and Photoshop natively without emulation. What more can you want? 

I think that by sheer force of numbers there is MORE software for the Mac than for any other platform. Look at all the packages in Fink and Darwinports, look at MacUpdate: tons of freeware and shareware of all kinds and types. Both by commercial and by freelance developers.

Currently you can run 4 OSses on Apple hardware: Mac OS X, Windows (in Virtual PC), OS 9 (in Classic) and all kinds of PPC unix and linux distributions (and use OS X from within them with Mac-on-Linux   ). Who's bitchin' about compatibility here? There even is Gentoo/portage for Mac OS X!

Last but no least the Mac avoids two of the worst things in windows: virusses and the registry.


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## Scottfab (May 10, 2005)

Ugh, LOTR humor, spare me...

Anyway, I think i actually prefer Windows computers. More upgradability, more programs, and despite the badness of IE, more sites work for it. Though Firefox is better. Firefox for PC is far superior to Safari IMHO, but Firefox for Mac is terrible. But there are benifits. No viruses. Fewer crashes. Better OS. But if I prefer Windows, why am I on a Mac? Simple. Powerbooks are hands down the best laptops. I'm on a powerbook. If I were picking desktops, I would chose a PC over Power Mac. And even though iMacs are neat, they're not that great.


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## michaelsanford (May 10, 2005)

How is firefox on Mac worse than firefox on any other platform? Page rendering? Plugins?


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## Cat (May 10, 2005)

> More upgradability, more programs, and despite the badness of IE, more sites work for it.


Put a name to it then. Upgrade what? What programs? Up to Tiger IE for Mac was included with the platform.

You can choose Mozilla, Camino, Firefox, iCab, Lynx, links, Opera, Netscape, Omniweb, Shiira, Sunrise Browser etc. on the Mac beside Safari. Plenty of choice, plenty of specializations and features to choose from. Very little compatibility problems. The net is based on standards. Safari has one of the highest degrees of standards support out there, IE has the worst. Sites need to be specifically hacked to work also in Win/IE, because it chokes on the standards.

There's some japanese websites (kodawarisan for instance) that post complete tutorials with pictures and step by step instructions for disassembling, upgrading and reassembling all types of Apple products as soon as they are released. The first thing everyone did once the mini came out was to look at the upgrade options and especcially how to do it yourself. The iMac had a self-service program, where the user was encouraged to open it up and upgrade it tehmselves. There are numerous hacks and tweaks for the G5 to fit multiple optical drives, SCSI Raid arrays etc. in it. Just because it is not in everybodies face, does not mean that macs are not moddable or upgradeable.

Name the programs that you miss on the mac platform. I sincerely hope that you are not just talking about games here.


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## Lycander (May 10, 2005)

michaelsanford said:
			
		

> How is firefox on Mac worse than firefox on any other platform? Page rendering? Plugins?


Just one minor nuisance: even though I plug in a Logitech mouse (2 buttons + wheel) I can't middle-click to open a link in a new tab. All other platforms I've used mozilla/firefox on works fine that way. It's just a little annoying to have to hold CMD and click a link to open it in a tab.


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## Scottfab (May 10, 2005)

excuse me for not wanting to void my warentee by hacking my computer apart. and atleast with PCs, I can build my own instead of having to deal with apple proprietary issues. wintel also tends to be cheaper.


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## Lt Major Burns (May 10, 2005)

i frequently get "you are using a mac, sorry, this site only supports windows 95+" etc.  bbc news feeds for example, among many.

plus there is no, decent, proper video libray-all-in-one app, say like real, or WMP. much as they are shite, they offer a function not supported properly on mac (i ignore VLC. it's not finished yet)

there's also games. petty, but irritating also.

and chat support. there's nothing better than basic text-over-IP. other than iChat, which no-one outside of the apple "reality distortion field" uses.

and epson printers. and a lot of hardware is a struggle to get going at first.

my phone (nokia pc suite). i can currently transfer one photo at a time via bluetooth. i have 97+ photo's on ther, that neeed to be transferred off. it takes a minute per photo. i need some mates pc to use it properly.

thats the bad, which is outweighed by the good, but it's still bad. it;'s makes you go hmmmmm...  from time to time


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## Zammy-Sam (May 11, 2005)

Scottfab said:
			
		

> excuse me for not wanting to void my warentee by hacking my computer apart. and atleast with PCs, I can build my own instead of having to deal with apple proprietary issues. wintel also tends to be cheaper.


Well, and later you have to beg VIA or God knows which chip producer to finally get an appropiate driver that works with current windows versions.
See, some ppl like to work around the computer, and some want to simply work on it. I don't want to deal with hardware issues, driver updates and God knows what. I buy my computer to do what I want it to do as much as I buy my car only for drive. I don't care if I can easily exchange the engine. When it's obsolete, I go for a new one.


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## HomunQlus (May 11, 2005)

The answer to what the thread began with - Apple or Windows, which is better - is the following.

There is no way of saying Apple/Windows is better. Apple has its strengths, Windows has its strengths. Apple has weaknesses, but so has Windows as well.

It doesn't make much sense anymore to have a discussion like that because things have developed far too much.

Like Apple.
Buy a Mac.
Use it.
Stick to it.

Like Windows.
Buy a PC.
Use it.
Stick to it.

It's as simple as that.

No point in discussing this any further.

Everyone should use and take what he likes the most, what he thinks will suit best for what he's going to do with his machine. If it's Windows, so be it. If it's Apple, so be it. What you like the most is the best for you personally, but there's no way of saying that system XYZ is truly the best. Windows has its right to be on the market as has Apple, and all the others like Unix and Linux. Use what you like the most and you will find it the best system. But if it is the best? That's for no one to say.

My opinion.


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## ApeintheShell (May 11, 2005)

Apple Computer goes beyond the user's expectations of what an operating system and computer should look. I like to design newsletters in iWork, listen to music, play pac man in Dashboard, chat with friends, surf the web, and this is what a basic user would do.
It seems your young enough where owning a Windows or Mac does not matter. If you find benefits using a Mac than stick to your guns. Be a leader and don't let your friends get under your skin. Usually people who have used a Mac either use it at work, a computer lab at school, or way back in Oldsville.


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## Cat (May 11, 2005)

> wintel also tends to be cheaper.


 That is just a common misconception that can be quite easily refuted and disproven.


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## TheJimmyJames (May 11, 2005)

I used Windows for at least eight years. Finally got my hands on an SE/30 in 1997. Yes, an SE/30. I stopped using my then-current PC.

Tell you anything?


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## Quicksilver (May 11, 2005)

Can you tell me why windows is better than a mac other than your own personal reasons?

One reason why mac may be better for some is that it has style. Buying a mac is like buying a Ferarri and crapping on all those little bombed up pices of crap you see driving around.

Buying a windows is like buying a cheap plastic car that just does everything. or even trying to throw a powerful engine under the bonnet to get the speed.

You see some things are a fashion statement. Apple as a way is saying "Hey Im cool and YOUR NOT!

In other words go buy your girl a "Louis vouton" hand bag for $2000. I know it sounds crazy but it kinda goes along the same line. OR go buy yourself a new top brand name suite go do your hair clear your self up and then go for a nice walk in the shops. And then you can see the attention you get from all those attractive women.

Now do the same but dress like a looser don't do your hair, make yourself smell. Now see how much attention you get from women. Its all about attraction, how GOOD you are and your SOCIAL STATUS.

If you own a MAC with MAC OS X, YOUR TOO GOOD!, LOL

By the way what os are you using, OS Classic 7?


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## Yammanee (May 12, 2005)

My answer is that Macs are just easier to use.
The simplest way of seeing this is the installation and removal process.
For the majority of applications (except for a few "Pro" apps) installation is as simple as drag and drop. Also, to remove, you just drag it to the trash.
None of this "Start - control panel - add/remove" and then you cross your fingers and hope that it was removed. 
Windows puts files into your system like a weed. It will take you forever to just track them all down manually. And doing so will probably corrupt your system and make it unstable!

Aesthetically, osx beats everything hands down. Perhaps when Longhorn comes out (if ever........) windows will catch up. But by that time macs will be far ahead again.

Macs are the masters of innovation. When was the last time microsoft came out with anything original?

The machines are better made and everything is optimised and designed to work together. The problems with a lot of pcs are that they are put together with pieces compiled from so many different companies. Thus creating problems when you upgrade and find clashes occur. And when you buy something out of the box, you still need to buy a lot of accessories. Not even talking about the software that comes bundled with a new system. 
With Apple, you have no need to buy software as most things are already supplied.

I was very much a windows user for many years, in image, film and sound editing and creation. But I will never go back. The ease of use and the quality of the OS will keep me a Mac user. I doubt windows will ever tempt me again.

I will admit that in the gaming arena, windows are far ahead. But with the new core video and sound that is in the new Tiger (OS 10.4) gaming developers might start taking a more keen interest in macs. They will be able to do things that will not be available to windows users. Here's hoping.

Whenever you talk to a Mac user, they will always say that Macs are the best. I think that you really need to just find an Apple computer and see for your self.
Best yet, if you have a Mac store near you, go in and ask any question you want.
The staff in Mac stores actually know what they are talking about (try and say that about most pc stores!).

Cheers.


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## gphillipk (May 12, 2005)

I'm suprised nobody has mentioned the fact that you can actually be much more productive on a Mac straight out of the box than on a new PC.  I remember when I got a new PC, the only thing I was able to do is play Freecell till I'd purchased & installed all the software needed. To date, I've only had to download and install a few applications (like TextWrangler which I use to write code) to have everything I need to be fully productive. I've had my PB for abt 2 months and I haven't even finished exploring all the software that came with it.


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## eliezer (May 12, 2005)

thanks guys. thats what im talking about.

i've had a mac my whole life and i always tell me people that mac is better.

but recently i've had to use windows a lot. e.g. for my ICT coursework i had to use microsoft access and publisher.

so that got me thinking that windows might not be simpler, but it does run all the apps at the end of the day.


btw. i have 3 apples at home. a dual 2ghz, a 1.6 ghz and an 400mhz ibook (old black one).

they all run os 10.3.9

btw quicksilver, if you really wanna be cool, get urself a 30 inch monitor with a dual 2.7ghz computer.


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## Scottfab (May 12, 2005)

I've actually sound this mac to be more inintuative. Disk images? Have to unmount my usb drive? No right click? Spotlight that doesnt search by name? Plus, there's less software, less games, less upgradeability, and the fact that everything is proprietary and expensive. 

And not to insult anybody, but I think alot of Mac users have an attitude problem. A need to prove their superiority or something. If I went to a windows forum and said I prefered Mac, I doubt I'd be attacked by an angry mob.


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## nixgeek (May 12, 2005)

Scottfab said:
			
		

> I've actually sound this mac to be more inintuative. Disk images? Have to unmount my usb drive? No right click? Spotlight that doesnt search by name? Plus, there's less software, less games, less upgradeability, and the fact that everything is proprietary and expensive.
> 
> And not to insult anybody, but I think alot of Mac users have an attitude problem. A need to prove their superiority or something. If I went to a windows forum and said I prefered Mac, I doubt I'd be attacked by an angry mob.



Seems as though you haven't actually DONE this.  Give it a try and see what happens.  Understand that you might not get the educated rebuttles you would get here, but it's to be expected.

As for the right click, if I only had a nickel for everytime a person that is relatively new to computers or is a computer novice got confused as to which button to use, I would be as rich as Billy Gates today. ::ha::  For new users, the two-button mouse can be confusing.  I usually have to remind them to LEFT-click instead of assuming that they know, otherwise I get the "which button do I click on?" question.  For new users, it's easier to understand the one button-ness of Apple's mouse.  You really don't even need to right-click, since most of your menu options are on the universal menubar at the top.  And for new users, this gives them a sense of familiarity where everything is.  They don't have to think about the 1001 ways of performing the same options with extra mouse buttons.  They can just go to the menu at the top and select the command they need.

As for the software selection, don't even THINK of counting all that junk software in the bargain bin as a selection, because there's a reason it's in that section....it's CRAP.  If you've noticed, most of the software titles available on the Mac are titles that are well-done and well-reviewed (for the most part).  Any of the big names you will find on the Mac and PC.  Those that don't provide are easily replacable by other developers that DO support the Mac.  And there are even titles that you won't find on Windows that are Mac only.  So that point is quite moot.  Don't base your decisions on wht Best Buy or Walmart has.  They obviously cater to one platform, and it works for them.  Most Mac users know where they can find their software, and it's within reach.  As a matter of fact, when I helped my father purchase his G5, he received a catalog from MacMall and other resellers of Mac items, so he wasn't at a loss here.  As for games, Apple is working on that, but remember that people who own a Mac aren't in it for the games.  It's probably easier for them to just get a cheap PC for that, or a game console.

As for the expandability, it's there.  And unless you build your own PC, you really don't have much of a need to upgrading anything, even if we're talking about branded PCs.  My mother-in-law has a Dell PC at her house and she hasn't upgraded it at all.  Everything is still the same exact way it came from the factory, and she's still very happy with it.  Whether it's a Mac or a Dell, people looking for these systems don't want to fiddle with the inside.  If that's what you want, then build yourself a nice Athlon 64 X2 system and be done with it.  Get the parts yourself.  But if you don't have the know-how, it's better that someone has taken the time to configure a system for you without you having to change anything after the purchase.  Heck, you can even BTO so that it's all there.  Most people looking to buy anything other than a Power Mac G5 aren't looking to get their hands dirty, they are looking to get their work done, and Apple has taken care of this.

Apple is considered to be proprietary because they control the software and the hardware.  But that's a false statement.  Look inside of their machines and you can use any type of component you would normally interchange on a PC on a Mac.  RAM and storage are about the only thing that's probably upgraded the most, and that's the same on both systems.  Apple machines had PCI, AGP, PCI-Express, whathave you.  The "Not-Invented-Here" Syndrome of the 90s is definitely gone.  Heck, even the core OS is open if you don't count Quartz or Aqua.  You want to talk proprietary??  How come Microsoft hasn't made ANY of their operating systems interoperable with others??  Sounds like lock-in to a proprietary platform to me.

Yes, Apple machines tend to be expensive, but compare Apple's systems to what you get on the PC side.  Most of the graphics chipsets integrated in the Macs are from companies that SPECIALIZE in video, like ATI and NVIDIA.  What do you find in the Wintel world?  Intel ExtremeGraphics???  PLEASE!  Let them deal with CPUs and leave the VPUs to companies that know what they are doing.  With Apple, you get high quality hardware AND software.  And for the most part, everything just works, and that's what I hear from everyone who's owned a Mac.

And as for your USB issue??  Think that at least the Mac is letting you know that you can corrupt your data if you don't unmount it properly.  Same thing in open-source UNIX/Linux if you think about it.  Windows OTOH just allows you to do unplug it with no regard to the fact that you can corrupt your data.  If you look carefully, in Windows XP you are warned that you need to STOP YOUR USB DEVICE before you disconnect it.  So you're point here is also refuted.

The reason Mac users tend to get irked by most Windows users is this:  Windows users are not all that informed.  You'll find that most Mac users are very well-informed about BOTH platforms, and can even run circles around most Windows users about their OWN platform.  If only Windows users didn't just regurgitate the same trash that's been spread around since the 1980s, Mac users would respect them a little more.


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## Viro (May 12, 2005)

Scottfab said:
			
		

> I've actually sound this mac to be more inintuative. Disk images? Have to unmount my usb drive? No right click? Spotlight that doesnt search by name? Plus, there's less software, less games, less upgradeability, and the fact that everything is proprietary and expensive.



Are you actually serious, or are you just trolling? You need to unmount your USB drive on Windows too. It's just called "Safely remove hardware" or something like that. If you haven't been doing that, don't complain if you suddenly find your data corrupted.

Right click is there. Though it is often unnecessary. If you do need to right click, either CTRL+click or buy a multibutton mouse. I've got a 7 button mouse and all the buttons work fine.

With regard to software, that's just plain ... naive. I use loads of programs on the Mac that were from Windows. MATLAB and Office are the first and foremost that come to mind. They cost the same as they would on Windows. *shrug*. Then, there's all those open sourced applications you can install via fink/darwin ports/gentoo/manual installation.

On the other hand, there is software that is available on OS X that is not available on Windows or Linux or anything else. I've already mentioned this, but I'll say it again. Bibdesk and TexShop. No alternatives on Windows. If there are, tell me! I need to tell my supervisor so he can get away from the command line. None work as well, and none are as cheap (free).

Xcode is free on OS X. Last I checked, VS.NET costs a fortune. Loads of development tools are free on OS X. 

I agree with you if you're talking about games. There are less games on OS X, and they tend to cost more. But the upside is only good games get ported, since developers are only interested in porting games that will sell.



> And not to insult anybody, but I think alot of Mac users have an attitude problem. A need to prove their superiority or something. If I went to a windows forum and said I prefered Mac, I doubt I'd be attacked by an angry mob.



Instead of merely speculating, why not go onto a Windows site and say you love macs? My experience is that there are zealots and idiots in every camp. Macs/Linux/Windows/Solaris/$FAV_OS all have their share of nut jobs. These forums are among the best on the web for decent signal to noise ratios.


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## Viro (May 12, 2005)

Crud, nixgeek beat me to it .


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## nixgeek (May 12, 2005)

Thanks for the assist though...you covered some things I didn't mention.


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## Lycander (May 12, 2005)

Viro said:
			
		

> Are you actually serious, or are you just trolling? You need to unmount your USB drive on Windows too. It's just called "Safely remove hardware" or something like that. If you haven't been doing that, don't complain if you suddenly find your data corrupted.


There's one caveat though. In Windows we can disable "write caching." Supposedly write caching creates this "perceived performance" because it doesn't write to disk right away... it waits for a more opportune time to actually commit the data. Idiotic if you as me, but anyways, you can disable write caching on removable media, then all your external hard drives can "quick disconnect." No need to manual tell the computer to unmount it first.

It's analogous to flushing file buffers, from a programmers angle 




			
				nixgeek said:
			
		

> And as for your USB issue?? Think that at least the Mac is letting you know that you can corrupt your data if you don't unmount it properly. Same thing in open-source UNIX/Linux if you think about it. Windows OTOH just allows you to do unplug it with no regard to the fact that you can corrupt your data. If you look carefully, in Windows XP you are warned that you need to STOP YOUR USB DEVICE before you disconnect it. So you're point here is also refuted.


What's stopping anyone from unplugging an external drive in OSX. Any warning signs, any pop up messages? And regarding "loss of data", in Windows when you MOVE files from one disk to another, the OS actually makes a copy of the files from source to destination. Then it deletes the original source to complete the process of permenantly moving the files from point A to B. If you hit cancel anytime inbetween, the files on the destination get erased, the original source files are kept in tact.

I had one ugly incident a few years ago on my iMac where I was trying to move everything (10 GB of various docs and files) off my FW HD onto my iMac HD so I can reformat the external one into HFS+. Well half way through I said "meh, I change my mind I'll leave it as FAT32 because I'll still need to use the drive on my PC." So I hit cancel. Well that bad news is it bumped into an error because I tried to stop it. But it still thought I wanted those files off that external HD. So it went and deleted them. So then my files were neither in the destination nor the original source...


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## riccbhard (May 12, 2005)

Windows is abosolutely horrible. Used 3.1 (what started this all) and 95 + all other versions of windows and they all SUCK  . Stay with Mac .


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## RGrphc2 (May 12, 2005)

check out xvsxp.com the guy disects Panther and XP to the nitty gritty.

No Games is BS there are games for Mac you just have to look.  Granted No Counterstrike or GTA but there are games that make up for that.

No Right click, go out and get a 2 button mouse they work with OS X, lol.


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## lilbandit (May 12, 2005)

I prefer os x to windows but I still feel that the majority of problems with Windows are due to reticence from your average user. Not installing patches, downloading and installing anything with a .exe extension, opening every dodgy e-mails, not using adequate anti-virus software. Anybody who comes to me with the stories of woe from XP can usually be traced to e-mails and filesharing. My powerbook hinge broke a month or so ago so I'm in the market for a laptop. I really like those thinkpads...


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## Scottfab (May 12, 2005)

I actually did build my own custom PC. It'd be nice if you could install OSX on something like that, rather than depending on their own PowerMacs. 

I actually first noticed the "safely remove" thing when I had to play iPod transfer from my mac to my pc. But its still a bother that if I dont unmount my usb drive, it  doesnt work right the next time I plug it in until I restart.


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## nixgeek (May 12, 2005)

Scottfab said:
			
		

> I actually did build my own custom PC. It'd be nice if you could install OSX on something like that, rather than depending on their own PowerMacs.
> 
> I actually first noticed the "safely remove" thing when I had to play iPod transfer from my mac to my pc. But its still a bother that if I dont unmount my usb drive, it  doesnt work right the next time I plug it in until I restart.



So then you would be better served with a PowerMac system instead of the others.  But even with a PowerMac tower, you would barely have the need to upgrade much since everything is already covered.  And if there was a Mac OS X for x86, it would be similiary plagued with hardware compatibility issues as Windows is, defeating the purpose of the Macintosh.  Besides, you can always download Darwin for x86 and you would have the UNIX available to you in Mac OS X, sans the eye candy.

I love building PCs, but there are times when a Mac would better serve me just to get the job done.  This past weekend I had to use Windows Movie Maker on my Athlon system.  I have everything configured properly (heck, I do this for a living).  Yet Movie Maker kept crashing every 5 minutes, and didn't allow me to do exactly what I wanted, meaning I had to rely on workarounds that sort of did what I wanted.  I wouldn't have had to worry about this on a Mac with iMovie.  Heck, I'm even using an old Motorola StarMax with Mac OS 9 for my sequencing because the same program that is available for Windows sucks nuts. (I am speaking of an old program called Master Tracks Pro..works beautifully on the Mac, mediocre on Windows).  That same Motorola Mac clone has PCI slots and I've got a USB card in there that's detected flawlessly under Linux, as well as a Voodoo3 2000 card that I flashed for use on my Mac.

the problem here is that one has to stop looking as the Mac from a Windows perspective.  Otherwise, you'll be disappointed.  Same goes for anything else.  Open yourself up to the new experience and learn from it.  You'll begin to enjoy it for what it is, not for what it's not compared to something else.  I've used Mac OS 9, X, Linux, and Windows (all versions), and I have to say that I feel least comfortable with Windows.  Not because I thought it should be like something else, but because compared to everything else on its own merit, it couldn't hold a candle.


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## Scottfab (May 12, 2005)

Mac seems designed for graphics, movie, or music professionals. I'm just a casual end user. This is my college laptop. Web browsing, email, word processing, dvd watching, cd burning, chatting, the occasional game-playing, and if I ever get back into doing it, maybe even some photoshop tinkering. I dont seem like the user who needs a mac. It just seemd with my research that the powerbooks were the best notebooks on the market.


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## Viro (May 13, 2005)

No offense, but I think you seem to be missing the point. You don't need a Mac for graphics, design or music production. That's beside the point. What you're using the Mac for at the moment, that's what it's designed for. It's not like you had to perform some great hack just to get it to browse the web, watch DVDs, etc. It did that pretty much out of the box. 

This is where the Mac excels at, especially for the casual non-technical user. The computer experience becomes much more enjoyable. They no longer have to worry about spyware or viruses. Macs don't suddenly become slower over time because the proper maintenance tasks weren't run. All their files are usable on the Mac too which eases migration. Things just work out of the box and normally play well together.

But if you want to persist in claiming that the Mac is specifically designed for certain markets, you need to add scientific research and application development to that .


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## starfox99 (May 18, 2005)

All I know is, I've been using Macs since '84. We had one in school, early days, and I've been using them since. OS9 was great, but it had it's problems. Only been on OSX for about 6 months now, and IMHO Apple have really reached the top with a beautiful-to-use OS. I'd find it extremely difficult to go back to using OS9 let alone Windows.

I've just bought a G5 20" Imac for home, and have a Dual 2G G5 at work (and yes, okay, I'm a graphic designer for television). Both machines worked straight from the box, I had my Imac out and on my Broadband in about half an hour.
I just recently bought an Airport card for my G5 in work, there was a nice neat little slot in there for the card, it previously  wasn't connected to t'internet. I installed it and was connected in about three quarters of an hour. We have a Dell PC and 2 laptops running off the Belkin wireless router, they took about a week to get sorted out on the wireless network.

My work colleague who I've known for 15 years and is an electronic engineer, the same guy who used to slag me off for using Macs, has just bought an Ipod AND a Mac Mini for home. He just had a baby, and wanted to send some DVDs to his family in America. He had the DVDs posted off about 3 days after he got his Mac, and he never shuts up about it now.

I plug my camera in and import all my photos into IPhoto and email to family and friends. I got all my familys old 8mm cine films transferred onto MiniDV, took it into IMovie, then authored it onto DVD with IDVD, as a xmas present for my parents. I listen to the wierdest radio stations on ITunes, and have every CD in the house on my harddisk, which is basically a big jukebox. I have loads of little shareware utilities like 'Name that Itune'. I easily update my software through Software Update. I play Call of Duty and World of Warcraft online. I have a Wireless Gamepad connected to the Imac. I was having problems with some Video Card drivers in work this week, because I installed OS10.3.9 (not Apple's fault, I hasten to add, fault of the third party manufacturers for not updating), so I spent a couple of hours reinstalling my factory disks, then updating back to 10.3.8 and it was so simple. Have you ever tried doing something like that on Windows? Neither have I and the thought makes me shiver!

I could go on... but the main reason I, and I'm speaking solely for myself but I know many will agree with me, use Apple is because it just FEELS right!

That is the end of my sermon!


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## fryke (May 19, 2005)

I'm still unsure whether this discussion is healthy in any way. Should we simply close the thread? Or not? We all know that there are different opinions out there (and in here), we all know that there are points for and against each operating system - and at the end of the day everyone has to choose for themselves, really. I personally wouldn't want to live with all the security issues Windows has been having in the past decade, but if someone else wants to: Why not...

But to jump from one argument to another (games, graphics, OS, look & feel, etc.) doesn't bring this discussion anywhere, I believe. We'll hear more pro-statements and will hear more contra-statements, but is scottfab really willing to change his mind? And are YOU? I don't think so.

So the question, for me, still is: Is this thread in any way worth to stay open for discussion?


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## Viro (May 19, 2005)

Close it. Anything that needs to be said has been said a hundred times over. On this thread, and on the gazillion other similar threads on the Internet.


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## kubbie (May 27, 2005)

I am glad to get home and kiss my Mac.  The best thing I feel about the mac is its ease of use.  Yeah windows has drag and drop however not to the extend mac does.  You can not only drag and drop files into folders, you can drag and drop info from one application to another,  surfing the web you can select text/pics/etc.. then drag it to the desktp or folder and viola its saves there.  Copy and Paste are a thing of the past.  

In Mac Os X the animations, user feedback and stability are fantastic.  The only way (and trust me I have tried) to crash Mac Os X is to throw it our the window, literally.  

What makes Macs or Apple better than windows is the quality apple puts into its designs and the functionality they place in thier products.  Even thou there is no such thing as a bug proof software, the base on which Apple has built thier software and products doesn't lend them to problems as those whose systems are built or hashed upon age old technologies or methods.  

Apple products my seem a bit more at first compared to discount PC manufacters, compared to the overall ownership expense of each machine.... Apple comes out ahead. no upgrades or equipment needed just software.  I bought an iMac and the only things I bought for it were a Digital camera and DV Camcorder.  

I love being able to sit here and think if it should be like this, then chances are it's done in that fashion.  The windoze machine at work drives me nuts, I wish I could bring in my Mac and get things done a hell of a lot faster!

that just my opinion.


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## contoursvt (May 27, 2005)

Kubbie, I dont want to sound negative towards your post but I dont think you've used windows in a while. Maybe 95/98 was the last?  

Drag and drop works fine in windows. I just went into IE, opened up google, dragged the google logo on the desktop which saved it as an image. I opened word and dragged the google image directly from the browser into word or I could drag from the desktop into word. I opened up photoshop 6.0 and dragged the google logo directly from the browser into a new document. I tried dragging the image from word to photoshop and it works fine. So far I've been able to drag anything anywhere.

I can drag a picture into the photoshop shortcut on my desktop and it opens up with the image or with IE I can do the same. I can drag word docs directly to the application to open it. I can even do something that OSX cannot do out of the box. I can drag an item INTO another FTP site - its not read only  

Also dual G5 is MUCH MUCH more than a bargain basement computer, not just a little. For example, I built and ordered a dual 3Ghz Xeon workstation with 2gig RAM, X800XT, SCSI drives (3 of them), U160 controller, Dual DVD 16x burners, Maudio soundcard for less than the base price of a dual g5 system with way less ram, much less video power, lesser sound, slower drives..less expandable tower case. The only thing I can say is that the G5 is pretty. 

As for stability, I really cant comment as my old B&W G3 tends to run quirky with OSX so thats not fair to compare and the G4 and G5 boxes at work are more unstable than our PC's but I think thats because the designers who use them dont know what they are doing! We have Velocity video stations which are running dual xeons and they have been fairly stable but in fairness, not too much better than the G5's for stability (they run XP).   I'd say both are even for stability in the right hands.  

Is for speed, I'll put this dual 3Ghz Xeon against any dual 2.5 G5. Obviously each has its strong point but I think its easily on par for most apps and multimedia.


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## kubbie (May 28, 2005)

Well you have to ask your self...why is M$ running their latest XBox 360 on Mac G5s? 

huh?


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## contoursvt (May 28, 2005)

Um...its not running on a Mac G5. Its running on a multicore PowerPC chip that has nothing to do with Apple so your xbox statement is really meaningless. Guess you had nothing else to come up with.

http://lowendmac.com/musings/05/0513.html


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## Convert (May 28, 2005)

contoursvt said:
			
		

> Um...its not running on a Mac G5. Its running on a multicore PowerPC chip that has nothing to do with Apple so your xbox statement is really meaningless. Guess you had nothing else to come up with.
> 
> http://lowendmac.com/musings/05/0513.html



IGN's article about Xbox 360 demo running on a Powermac 'Alpha kit'.

Anandtech's article about the Xbox 360 demo running on a Powermac.

Both include images.

The alpha kits were used because they had a similar processor setup.

Oh, and your link, about IBM making a 3.2Ghz processor for MS but not for Apple... it's a gaming machine. It has a lot less to do. You wouldn't see that speed on a Powermac as of now, it has so much more to do. But the Xbox 360 doesn't, so it can have a bigger processor and get away with it.


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## contoursvt (May 28, 2005)

Hi convert, maybe i'm still missing the point. What does a game console have to do with anything though? I posted the above link to show that the console's processor has nothing to do with the current G5 (as the previous poster had made a comment to warrant my link).  The links you sent me basically show the same. They may be able to develope for the new xbox on a G5b but its much slower because the processors are much weaker as is the video hardware so.... so I dont really follow why you sent me those links. I already know the hardware is not the same.


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## Convert (May 28, 2005)

contoursvt said:
			
		

> Hi convert, maybe i'm still missing the point. What does a game console have to do with anything though? I posted the above link to show that the console's processor has nothing to do with the current G5 (as the previous poster had made a comment to warrant my link).  The links you sent me basically show the same. They may be able to develope for the new xbox on a G5b but its much slower because the processors are much weaker as is the video hardware so.... so I dont really follow why you sent me those links. I already know the hardware is not the same.



Sorry, I'm just replying to your previous post (that was replying to the post before that about the XBox).

You said that the Xbox 360 demos weren't being run on Macs. They were.

I see where we're getting confused here. I think kubbie meant the Xbox 360s at E3 were 'running on macs' (but were just macs, in fact). Of course, the console itself, while PPC, isn't anywhere near a Mac.


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## contoursvt (May 28, 2005)

I see, sorry,  I missunderstood as well   Ok I thought he meant that the final Xbox360 was a G5 - see helps if I read carefully next time


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## zoranb (May 30, 2005)

Randman said:
			
		

> I'd be interested in hearing what software applications don't have a peer on the Mac side.



Well dear Randman does AdobePremierePro answer your question? Of course there is FCutPro but ill have to learn that from scratch in order to use it!!


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## Viro (May 30, 2005)

zoranb said:
			
		

> Well dear Randman does AdobePremierePro answer your question? Of course there is FCutPro but ill have to learn that from scratch in order to use it!!



That means there is a peer.


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