# Apple's Competition to upcoming Microsoft "Vienna"



## zynizen (May 27, 2007)

this link illustrates codename "blackcomb", a further release with better technology than vista to be released in late 2009..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_"Vienna"

any idea what Apple is doing to future releases of OSX and the way you compute? I know Leopard is going to be advanced, but, more less the same OS as Tiger, with revamped code and newer apps, that do more things.. 

any comments on this article on wiki would be great, any sources or rumours?

I know apple has been doing business with samsung to get flash SSD in their future releases of laptops..  flash storage will be the end of boot times as there are no moving parts! 

post your comments!   *AFTER* reviewing the article above!


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## Timotheos (May 28, 2007)

Thats a pretty funny wikipedia page...

Did anyone find the whole 'development' section strange? Its as if they come up with these concepts.. 'Whistler', 'Longhorn', 'Blackcomb', ,Vienna, and the amazing 'Vista' without actually having any idea what they are actually going to produce. Actually I would even go to say that it sounds like they create these names without actually having an idea or concept behind the name then just go... hmm lets say we will realease this one in 2009 shall we?

I would love to go to a meeting with the top cheifs when they are brainstorming this stuff just to give myself reasurrance that they do actually think about the product they are designing.

Another thing that cracked me up was this...

"For instance, the "Start" philosophy, introduced in Windows 95, may be replaced by the "new interface" which was said in 1999 to be scheduled for "Vienna"."

What the hell? They planned to get rid of that menu 8 years ago? I allways hear things about a new UI but theres no sign of them introducing anything, but dear god I hope they do. If they somehow manage a release by '09 with a new and well designed GUI, I will be surely amazed. Im sure will all would be amazed.

As for Apple. I really dont mind the GUI at the moment, aslong as they keep streamlineing the OS in general i'll be content. Thats unless windows brings out something better, thats when I will be wanting something new. Dont get me wrong, I wouldnt say no to a new and well designed GUI tomorrow. It wouldnt (well it would slightly, I guess) suprise me if we did get a new GUI in June.


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## Viro (May 28, 2007)

How do you compete with vaporware?


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## zynizen (May 28, 2007)

I think billy has his head in the clouds a bit too long from the background screen of win95... don't you think? lol

I think they have lost all marbles, and even if the release of a new GUI in a new OS .. IS... revolutionizing..  don't you think apple would be aware of this..

the further enhancement of the iPhone touchscreen technology, could actually change the way we use the computer.  for instance, instead of a normal keyboard typing unit, we could have a digital screen, that you can customize just like your background, like a coloured touching unit or something..

if you check out the preview for leopard server, it gets little GUI enhancement, so to comment on the leopard ui, i think it too has slight upgrades!


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## Lt Major Burns (May 28, 2007)

zynizen said:


> I think billy has his head in the clouds a bit too long from the background screen of win95... don't you think? lol
> 
> I think they have lost all marbles, and even if the release of a new GUI in a new OS .. IS... revolutionizing..  don't you think apple would be aware of this..
> 
> ...




Multitouch's potential goes much deeper than replicating a physical keyboard on a screen.  it's about removing the limitations of a single clumsy detatched pointing device.

it's about going in there and manipulating everything on screen at once.  imagine music production, where you can move any amount of knobs at once, or image manipulation, where you can move HSB sliders dynamically with your hands.  Command and Conquer with the ability to move the camera dynamically while at the same time picking and dropping troops where you want them to go. or whatever, the more you think about it, the more the possiblities seem to go on and on....

if the industry doesn't adopt multitouch as the next standard, i'll be very disappointed.


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## chevy (May 28, 2007)

I agree with Lt: the GUI will soon see very dramatic evolutions. The WII was the first real evolution of the century, others are coming.


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## Mikuro (May 28, 2007)

Apple's put themselves in a very good position with OS X. They don't need to create a revolution for every little thing. They had one revolution  OS X  and now everything is smooth sailing. Microsoft just won't commit to a full revolution, and the result is that every little thing they do is hard. All that work on Vista, for what?

Apple is already moving, slowly and steadily, to a "new era" of UI design. They can do this in OS X, again, because OS X was built future-proof. The first signs of Apple's direction are already here: Front Row, Time Machine, Cover Flow, and also the iPhone's touch screen, just to name a few.

Now, I'm not saying Apple's making all the right decisions  I'm sure I've ranted here about exactly what I hate about Apple's new philosophy  but the point is, Apple is not standing still. They're also not lumbering along in feverish spurts and stops like Microsoft. They're moving ahead smoothly.

So when I hear vague hints that Microsoft is doing something big, I'm really not impressed. In 2009, we'll probably be getting OS 10.6. It'll take more than the mere idea of removing the Start menu to make me think Microsoft has something special going.



Lt Major Burns said:


> if the industry doesn't adopt multitouch as the next standard, i'll be very disappointed.


Agreed.


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## fryke (May 28, 2007)

Multitouch on trackpads, maybe? I mean: We already have the ability to use two fingers on our trackpads to scroll etc. - why not the squeezing stuff?  I'm still not sure whether we'll really be using touchscreens on both desktop and notebook computers by Apple very soon. It makes sense on a handheld, though.


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## Lt Major Burns (May 28, 2007)

no, i really want to disagree.  i'd like a near-generation of cinema screens to have the multitouch layer, and an ability to have them down on the table at a similar angle to a draughting board.  change the way the desk is layed out.  consign keyboards and mice back to where they came.my desk should eventually _be_ a 40" cinema display on legs - a return to the draughting table. bring back direct hand-action, not hand-to-eye.

quite literally back to the drawing board.


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## Mikuro (May 28, 2007)

fryke said:


> Multitouch on trackpads, maybe? I mean: We already have the ability to use two fingers on our trackpads to scroll etc. - why not the squeezing stuff?  I'm still not sure whether we'll really be using touchscreens on both desktop and notebook computers by Apple very soon. It makes sense on a handheld, though.


Ick! 

Nothing would be wrong with multi-touch trackpads, when compared to non-multi-touch trackpads, but the functionality they would offer would be nothing compared to a full multi-touch-screen.

Forget about manipulating equalizer sliders like on a real audio board. Forget about manipulating more than one object at once in general. Even the simple gestures, like the image resize pinch, would be awkward to use without direct contact with the image. It would require an extra level of abstraction between action and reaction. Where would the reference points of the resize operation be when there's only one cursor? The pinch only works because you can grab two spots of the image at the same time. Without the two points of reference, there's no way for the computer to know whether an inch of finger movements should correlate to 100% of the image size or 10%. Same with rotation. A trackpad simply wouldn't allow for that flexibility.

I'm not saying such a thing couldn't be done usefully, but it wouldn't be nearly as useful or feel nearly as natural as a screen.

I won't be happy until the iMac looks like a horribly mutated Nintendo DS.  I talked about this years ago, beginning with the idea of multiple mouse cursors. You all said I was mad back then, but _who's mad now?!?_ (Oh? Still me? Damn...)


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## symphonix (May 28, 2007)

It looks like Apple have decided to take on the very real and imminent threat of Vienna by responding directly with a similar offering of their own:



> Mac OS X "Plankton" (formerly known as "Barbershop Quartet") is a codename for a future version of Mac OS X, originally announced in February 2000, that has been subject to major delays and rescheduling. It is expected to be the successor to both Mac OS X Leopard Media Centre Edition and Mac OS X Embedded-in-Cheese Edition.
> 
> Apple has announced it will be released in 2011, and according to "Smart Computing In Plain English", a technology magazine nobody around here has ever heard of before and not exactly easy to consider a reliable source, work on it began right after the iPod Nano was released. As of February 2007, the name of the operating system used internally is undisclosed and is not used publicly by Apple, though "Mac OS X Startled Budgerigar" has been noted in job postings as a working name for the project.
> 
> Apple has refrained from discussing the details about "Blubber" publicly as they focus on the release and marketing of Mac OS X Leopard and other products that actually _exist_, though some early details of various core operating system features have emerged at developer conferences such as those guys from marketing getting drunk at a pub near Apple last weekend.



I guess Apple have it all in hand then.


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## fryke (May 29, 2007)

Lt Major Burns said:


> bring back direct hand-action, not hand-to-eye.


That's all fine and well for a few specific jobs. But as long as I have to enter more than a couple of words via a keyboard (and even being part of this _forum_ is a reason for it, even if you spend 8h a day sliding mixers on an audio program right now with a mouse as a job...), I personally still need a fine keyboard that sure as hell _can't_ be one merely displayed on a touchscreen, because it'd drive me crazy.
Believe me: I like the idea of multitouch drawing boards as well. For very specific tasks, that'd be a great idea. But the human-to-computer interface has to be also about common denominators. And as long as E-Mail and the writing of text in general takes up most of the time of a computer user, one shouldn't necessarily jump to the nicely looking sci-fi ideas.

I generally agree that the direct approach of touching stuff where you see it is better than any abstraction layer. However: The mouse works for 99% of people. Most people aren't that good at drawing with WACOM tablets, btw. And those tablets that also double as a second screen to the computer: They haven't really taken off as _the_ way to input data into a computer, have they. Only because it wasn't done by Apple? I don't think so. They are for a specific target audience. It makes sense for them to invest some money into it. And I'm pretty sure that the same goes for multitouch screens for desktop/notebook computers.

(I'm glad I didn't have to either touch-type this on an onscreen keyboard or speak it into my computer while sipping on a latte macchiato at the local café where everybody can hear what I'm saying - only to have to later pick up a keyboard to correct the spelling and actual meaning of sentences etc.)


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## zynizen (May 29, 2007)

I would have to agree with all comments!     and as for whats coming, I guess we will just have to wait and see... or touch!


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## Lt Major Burns (May 29, 2007)

fryke said:


> That's all fine and well for a few specific jobs. But as long as I have to enter more than a couple of words via a keyboard (and even being part of this _forum_ is a reason for it, even if you spend 8h a day sliding mixers on an audio program right now with a mouse as a job...), I personally still need a fine keyboard that sure as hell _can't_ be one merely displayed on a touchscreen, because it'd drive me crazy.



i'd be inclined to agree, but i have to wonder, is it _impossible_ for a flat keyboard to be useless to type on?   i certainly prefer a laptop keyboard to a desktop for typing long documents on, so what if the next progression was actually flat?  just because current touch screens with their clumsy interpretation are rubbish, doesn't mean they all have to be...  i'd love to see how this preemptive keyboard input is like on the iPhone.  i'm already wanting it as i'm a clumsy typer at the best of times...


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## zynizen (May 29, 2007)

very good point, but, you have to consider most people don't have ergonomic keyboards at present either. I've been typing like a mad man for over 10 years, or since 1992 i believe..  and my wrists hurt. having a flat keyboard like the one I am typing on my macbook pro, is very very nice on the fingers, but eventually, how many years will it take for people to realize they have carpaltunnel? 

flat is good, if they can ergonomize the thing. I love apple, but have you ever seen one ergo titanium Keyb?  I used to have the Acer ferrari 3400 red notebook, (www.acer.com) and the keyboard was just SLIGHTLY pitched and slanted for comfort, making it a pleasant typing machine for long books like this one...  



so, if they did raise the board a bit, sorry it would be 1.1" thick, instead of 1" ..  lol


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## Mikuro (May 29, 2007)

Well, there's no reason a touch screen couldn't be raised in the back. The real problem, I think, is the complete lack of tactile feedback. I have to agree with Fryke: I don't think touch-screen keyboards will ever be as appealing as real keyboards.

That does raise the question of where the heck a touch screen should go if not where we put our keyboards. I had never really considered that setup before, and honestly, I don't think it's all that appealing. The whole world does not want to have Artist's Neck. 

I think a laptop-like setup could work, with the normal screen as a touch-screen. If it were stable (unlike a laptop) and at a good angle, I think I could use it comfortably with it right behind my keyboard.

It's really hard to say what would work, though. I'd bet Apple is testing a few ideas in their user experience labs. I think they ought to be able to come up with something. It doesn't need to replace the keyboard, or even the mouse, to be very useful. I think it would be suicide to try to replace these things overnight anyway.


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## Lt Major Burns (May 29, 2007)

one thing to take into note though, is that doug englebart considered many ways of interating eith elements on screen, including the most obvious touch screen.  the mouse won.


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## Lt Major Burns (May 30, 2007)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6703249.stm

http://www.microsoft.com/surface/

it's really impressive...  they've not gone down the creative design route, but what they have done is thought quite heavily outside the box in terms of business useage...  it's all a bit jeff han, but it's still very very nice.

well done MS!


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## supanatral (May 30, 2007)

I wonder what this is going to inspire Apple to do

Sorry guys but forget about apple, i want this!

The only thing is that it is way to raticle and so disorganized looking. I mean from the way the videos looked, the computer knew exactly what you wanted to do and when you wanted to do it which is impossible. If it comes out then it will be absolutly incredible, however I would highly doubt it. It's like the concept cars that are off the wall, they never come out.

The other issue is that everything has to become compatible with it. Once you have this, now you need to get a new cell phone, camera, palm pilot, etc.

Now for the final conclusion I've drawn. This looks to be more of a console then a computer.


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## Qion (May 31, 2007)

How 'bout it, Fryke?


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## icemanjc (May 31, 2007)

Lt Major Burns said:


> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6703249.stm
> 
> http://www.microsoft.com/surface/
> 
> ...



You do know, that they did not develope the technology, it was a third party that they took it from.


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## Qion (May 31, 2007)

icemanjc said:


> You do know, that they did not develope the technology, it was a third party that they took it from.



They say on the site they've been developing it themselves for years.


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## fryke (May 31, 2007)

Qion said:


> How 'bout it, Fryke?



Doesn't really change my opinion that this won't replace the main interfaces (keyboard/mouse-or-trackpad) for computers anytime soon. For above-stated reasons. Unless your question was off-topic and about palm's Foleo, which is a concept I like. To think that palm releases something which has a screen which is *not* touchscreen, at a time when everybody seems to be all about touchy-feely-biggie-screens...


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## Qion (May 31, 2007)

fryke said:


> Doesn't really change my opinion that this won't replace the main interfaces (keyboard/mouse-or-trackpad) for computers anytime soon. For above-stated reasons. Unless your question was off-topic and about palm's Foleo, which is a concept I like. To think that palm releases something which has a screen which is *not* touchscreen, at a time when everybody seems to be all about touchy-feely-biggie-screens...



Good.


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