# .mac



## cokeymon (Sep 30, 2002)

Anyone notice that Apple has extended it's subscription period for .mac?  

I wonder how long that'll go on...

You have to laugh really - they obviously haven't got anywhere near the no. of subscribers they want (I mean, 100k sounds like a lot, but it's only a fraction of their installed base)

Consumer power rocks.


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## nichrome (Sep 30, 2002)

100 000 is a lot.

The .Mac extension is the result of iSync's late arrival.

iTools never brought profits to Apple. Now all of a sudden they have a product that brought them about 6-7 million dollars in two months. If you consider that Apple's quarterly profits are in the 30M range, that 6-7 million is a huge amount of money.

.Mac is a success. Failure to acknowledge that can generally be attributed to the fact that people who lost their "free lunch" are annoyed due to the fact that Apple took away what it gave to them for free. And these people want to mouth off and try to make it seem as though Apple has done something wrong, in their interest and the customers'. While the opposite is true.

Keep in mind, Apple's not a charity organization. It has no obligation to provide free services on expensive servers.

Maintaining a free iTools was eating away their profits. You would probably rather have seen Apple die at the rabid hands of the "we want free, now" crowd through the failure that was iTools, eh?


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## verlorenengel (Sep 30, 2002)

I'd like to see a quicker operating system with quicker loading apps on a quicker machine.

My Dual 1GB machine will be the last Apple I buy until 2006, maybe then there will be a Apple system that can run OSX up to standard.. ie: as quick as windows, as quick as X11 on any unix, etc.


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## cokeymon (Oct 1, 2002)

I have 2 words for you:

Ya Hoo.


If they can do it for free (Whoops I'm forgetting Backup and Antivirus... Big Deal) and better, then why can't Apple?

100,000 suckers paid for .mac - and Apple has extended their sign-up period to try and convince more "Oh it's from Apple so it must be good" suckers to join in...

Just because you got taken in doesn't mean Apple is on to a good thing with .mac


If you want to pay for extra storage space, go ahead, but don't try and tell me that Apple needs to charge every user of .mac to turn a profit.  Again, I quote:

"Yahoo!!!"


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## MightyAtom (Oct 1, 2002)

If you want to a good read on the value of the old free iTools model for Apple  head to The Register very interesting article, looks like Apple will be losing a good source of revenue making people pay.


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## onegoodpenguin (Oct 1, 2002)

It is completely ignorant to compare Apple's paid online services to Yahoo's free offerings.  I don't want to see advertisements when I check my mail over the web, and I don't want to wonder what kind of footer will be at the bottom of every email I send.  I'm paying Apple for the convenience of using a quality service, not a bare-bones, ad revenue supported service.  We all know Yahoo and Hotmail are considering drastic changes to their "business" models as we speak.  They are both losing money.  Apple would've been cool to continue iTools, but I can't hold it against them for moving to .Mac.  It was way better than the other free services, so don't compare them.  (And not just because, "oh, it's from Apple.")


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## MDLarson (Oct 1, 2002)

I never got any spam from my (iTools) mac.com email address.  That was a big plus for me, and I told people about it.  I was _proud_ of my email address.  It was short, sweet, easy, and free.  Plus it advertised the fact that I was an Apple-fan.

I wonder if Apple ever planned on selling their list, as the Register suggested


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## cokeymon (Oct 2, 2002)

Excellent article - thanks  MDLarson.

And sorry, "onegoodpenguin", you do seem to be another crazy apple lover.

Don't get me wrong, I love my Apple, but I don't appreciate Mr Jobs adopting M$ tactics.  Hotmail is annoying and spam ridden, and M$ is desperate to make you pay (only 2MB storage!!) but at least it's free.

Yahoo isn't spam ridden, has good storage (6MB + 30MB) and doesn't charge ridiculous prices to increase the mailbox size.

Not everything Apple does is good - and the more people who realised this the better.  Try reading this article, also from the Register:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/39/26331.html

Some people are just nuts.


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## hulkaros (Oct 2, 2002)

...buy the .Mac stuff!

If all you want is a SLOW, via browser-ONLY accessible email, stuffed with ADs AND JUNK email have your mouth and brain full of it here:
-www.hotmail.com
-www.yahoo.com

For those who NEED NOT to mess with the above crap PLUS get A LOT MORE stuff can go here:
-www.mac.com

It's a free world and NOT a free stuff world we live so back off... For those who whine THAT much for .Mac OBVIOUSLY haven't heard about the FREE 3-month trial of .Mac so go there and learn more about it... Or even better give it a shot AND stop whining!

You think that Yahoo! and HotMail is for free? I'm sure that you got that ALL wrong... Trust me: ALL wrong!

As for those fellas (including me) who paid for .Mac it was actually a no-brain stuff:
-Having my freedom for $49 or $99 a year, ONLY? Gee, let me think... M$ vs Yahoo vs Apple? Apple wins hands down...  

And what about @macosx.com? I would chose EVEN this BLINDLY over M$ and Yahoo stuff! EASILY...


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## hunt045 (Oct 2, 2002)

I read this morning that subscritions rate is up to 180,000 as of yesterday. Also, Apple has announced an special educational rates of $59 with reduced email storage and on line disk storage.

  I am not a Apple cheerleader, however, I signed up at the introductary rate to support the cause and to get the newer version of Virex 7.1.  It will be a gut wrencher next year to cough up a C note for the same service.


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## lucasraggers (Oct 2, 2002)

I think 180.000 paying .mac users is very much. A lot of people subscribed to more than one free itools account. I had three. So 2 million free itools members doesn't mean 2 million people. Now I have one .mac account.


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## heathpitts (Oct 2, 2002)

I subscribed to .mac and I generally enjoy the service. I have an external dvd-burner so I can't use backup to burn discs (? why is this?). I do like having the imap email account and the web space with no ads. Webmail needs to ad the ability to sync your contacts on your home mac with the webmail address book and I would also like to sync the contacts with other computers (PCs). 

The real thing I like is being able to post thumbnails of my pics so easily. That just saves a lot of time. I was always looking for something so simple when I used a PC for my main computer at home. Should have looked at the mac a long time ago.



Heath Pitts

www.heathpitts.com
heath@heathpitts.com
AIM: dheathpitts


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## onegoodpenguin (Oct 2, 2002)

Well, if I'm "another crazy apple lover," consider me a CCL Hosting lover too.  I know little about that company, but I pay 6.95 a month to host my website there.  I get 50 megabytes of webspace, and an email address, along with standard CGI access and stuff.  Now, I will be paying a total of $83.40 if I keep using the web hosting provider for an entire year.  I must REALLY love them.  I payed 49.xx for .Mac.  It integrates with my various iApps and lets me update things on my webpage easily that I wouldn't bother to do otherwise.  Attractive, simple webmail.  I mean, I just don't see how you can label me as another bias Apple fan when I'm making a simple statement that we _are_ getting more than Hotmail and Yahoo users.

I would like to point out that the ones who are truly "crazy" are the ones who want a free service from Apple, and the reason is this:  In stating, "Hotmail is annoying and spam ridden, and M$ is desperate to make you pay (only 2MB storage!!) but at least it's free," you are saying that Hotmail is better than .Mac strictly based on it's free status.  Okay, so let Apple create a free service with exactly the same features (and annoyances) as MS and Yahoo.  You'd use it then?  A service that admittedly has no improvement over it's competitors?  That would be bias, my friend.  Otherwise you're expecting Apple to pay for your services out of their pocket.  So if you have your Hotmail, why complain about no .Mac?  You should have to pay to get a superior product, and that's what we pay for, not an Apple brand.


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## MDLarson (Oct 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by onegoodpenguin _
> *I would like to point out that the ones who are truly "crazy" are the ones who want a free service from AppleSo if you have your Hotmail, why complain about no .Mac?  You should have to pay to get a superior product, and that's what we pay for, not an Apple brand.*


I agree with you, but for those of us who had an iTools account *didn't want* a lot of the other stuff that .mac includes.  While I used my iDisk website _a little bit_, I was and would be truly happy just to have mdlarson@mac.com but not at $100 / year!!!

The _least_ Apple could have done was offer tiered pricing for the basic services, and people who were willing to pay for the premium stuff, well, $100 it is.  I've said it before and I'll say it again:  I'm willing to pay for quality (I use a Mac after all), but not for stuff I don't want / need.

Also, I think the iTools whiners whine because it is such a pain to switch email addresses.  You have to email everybody in your address book, and who knows if they actually get the update done?  My grandma got an @mac.com email address, and I had the unpleasant duty to explain to her that it wouldn't last forever.  It's not fun paying for something that you took for granted.  Apple advertised iTools as a part of the OS, and then they pulled their bait-and-switch.  I don't respect Apple as much as I did before for that.

It was a bait-and-switch.


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## mdnky (Oct 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by cokeymon _
> *I have 2 words for you:
> 
> Ya Hoo.
> ...



Yahoo doesn't offer anything other than basic e-mail full of ads now...that's free?

To get the ability to share files publicaly you have to pay.  Go look at the services they offer again.

Why does everybody want something for nothing?  It's called being lazy IMHO.  Quit crying, it's so childish.


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## MarcusA11an (Oct 2, 2002)

Why would you pay for .mac when you get a free email address with your ISP. but then again why would some one have 8 email address like i do
<shrug>


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## cokeymon (Oct 3, 2002)

"Why does everybody want something for nothing? It's called being lazy IMHO. Quit crying, it's so childish."


No-one's crying - just calling anyone who paid for .mac a sucker!

Yahoo has free online storage for files & photosharing (30MB), free webspace via Geocities & of course free email.

But that isn't the point.  The point is, some suckers paid over the odds for .mac JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE BLIND TO APPLE's FAULTS.

Personally, I pay for an ISP and I get my spam & ad free email and webspace from them.

I'm guessing that most people who signed up for .mac are adults with Credit Cards, who would also pay for an ISP.  Why would they also pay for .mac whenever they get email & webspace from their ISP?  BECAUSE THEY'RE SUCKERS!

Yahoo is mentioned because they provide very similar functionality to .mac for free.  I'll accept that spam and ad free email is worth a premium, but not $100 a year!

Yours smugly,


Cokeymon.


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## boi (Oct 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by cokeymon _
> *"Why does everybody want something for nothing? It's called being lazy IMHO. Quit crying, it's so childish."
> 
> 
> ...



wow, it sounds like you have some serious aggression. why don't you just let it be? .mac provides more than just a web account and not everyone gets free web space with their ISP (think LAN). apple integrated .mac well with the OS and people are paying for the ease of use, among other tools. .mac will keep evolving. shouldn't you be happy that apple is making money? don't make the generalization that everyone who pays for .mac is an apple addict who swears by everything they say. you think it's a bad deal. fine. go yahoo yourself silly. just don't throw around insults like you have the end-all truth of the world.


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## solrac (Oct 3, 2002)

Everyone is stupid.

Why complain about Apple getting money from suckers?

Anyone who has ever bought RAM from Apple is a sucker. Why do people pay four times more for Apple RAM than any other RAM seller? I guess its those same people who got a .mac account.

Don't complain about .mac unless you have complained about their RAM prices first.


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## cokeymon (Oct 3, 2002)

I will insult the idiots who paid for .mac because they contribute to Apple's arrogance in thinking that charging is a feasible idea.

As long as there are people out there who refuse to criticise the great Jobs, Apple will continue to do things like overcharge for hardware and services.


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## heathpitts (Oct 3, 2002)

So I am an idiot because I paid for .mac? Thanks for letting me and 179,999 other people know that we are idiots. We should have contacted you first to let us know how to be "smart".


Heath Pitts


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## nvaughan3 (Oct 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by onegoodpenguin _
> *It is completely ignorant to compare Apple's paid online services to Yahoo's free offerings.  I don't want to see advertisements when I check my mail over the web, and I don't want to wonder what kind of footer will be at the bottom of every email I send.  I'm paying Apple for the convenience of using a quality service, not a bare-bones, ad revenue supported service.  We all know Yahoo and Hotmail are considering drastic changes to their "business" models as we speak.  They are both losing money.  Apple would've been cool to continue iTools, but I can't hold it against them for moving to .Mac.  It was way better than the other free services, so don't compare them.  (And not just because, "oh, it's from Apple.") *



shows how ignorant you are.  yahoo is currently profitable.  hotmail signed up tens of thousands for their paying service, and even if it isnt profitable by itself (i suspect it is), there is the matter of how it funnels millions and millions of customers through MS's msn.com portal.


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## mdnky (Oct 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by cokeymon _
> *No-one's crying - just calling anyone who paid for .mac a sucker!
> 
> Yahoo has free online storage for files & photosharing (30MB), free webspace via Geocities & of course free email.*



Right off Yahoo's site....
Get more out of your Yahoo! Briefcase with Premium Storage.
*	More Storage space! 50 MB for as little as $2.08/mo
*	Share your files publicly
*	Upload bigger files! Even larger presentations will fit

Even Yahoo is charging now, except for the SPAM laden, and downright unusable webmail they still give for free.  To use POP you gotta pay.

The .Mac services works better than Yahoos, gives more options, has a better address, and I (as well as 180,000 other people at least) like it.

The king of idiots is the one who calls others idiots, cokeymon.  BTW, that name has a ring to it...like an annoying children's cartoon caled Pokemon...very original.


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## roger (Oct 3, 2002)

No-one is saying that you can't get .Mac functionality elsewhere for free. However no free service will guarantee service quality and/or uptime. If you don't rely on that functionality then why should you pay when you get it free? If you do rely on it, then pay and enjoy the peace of mind.

I don't pay for .Mac because I don't need the functionality that much. However I applaud apple for making the service available to me should my requirements change.

Other people have free web hosting. However I pay for mine because I get great service, because I need it. I can get the same functionality elsewhere, but not of the same quality.


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## mdnky (Oct 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nvaughan3 _
> *shows how ignorant you are.  yahoo is currently profitable.  hotmail signed up tens of thousands for their paying service, and even if it isnt profitable by itself (i suspect it is), there is the matter of how it funnels millions and millions of customers through MS's msn.com portal. *



You need to take a look at Yahoo's filings with the SEC and other financial souces, profitable is a broad term.  They are only in single digit (low, low digit...2-3) percentage increases, and this after massive cost cutting and increased revenue...though ads and charging for services.

If Apple wanted major profit they'd charge $15/month for .Mac ( $180/yr ), as that's a fair price compared to other "basic hosting" and "e-mail" services.

You never get anything for free, at least usually nothing worth keeping.


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## mdnky (Oct 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by roger _
> *No-one is saying that you can't get .Mac functionality elsewhere for free. However no free service will guarantee service quality and/or uptime. If you don't rely on that functionality then why should you pay when you get it free? If you do rely on it, then pay and enjoy the peace of mind.
> 
> I don't pay for .Mac because I don't need the functionality that much. However I applaud apple for making the service available to me should my requirements change.
> ...



Very well put...


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## onegoodpenguin (Oct 3, 2002)

That's my point, nvaughn.  You agree with me that it took a retooling of Hotmail's business model for them to become suspectably profitable.  And Yahoo! may currently be profitable, but most likely not as a direct result of their free email.  I was simply commenting on their services that are comparable to .Mac (iTools), not on their ability to turn a profit through whatever else they offer.  That's a good point though about the MSN portal.  Offering those services is a great marketing strategy and I have no doubt that they get a lot more hits than they would otherwise.

And for the record, I do think it sucks that Apple brought .Mac into existence the way that it did, because most iTools users thought they would have their email address permanently.

Cokeymon, you're making quite a few friends around here aren't you?  As a general rule, I wouldn't recommened directly insulting people by calling them "idiots", but that's another story.  In answer to your question "Why would they also pay for .mac whenever they get email & webspace from their ISP?" I'll provide a different answer, since I actually did pay for it.    In contrast to my ISP: 1) I get more than 10 megs of space. 2) It integrates with the software I use (iApps), resulting in much time saved.  That integration alone is the difference between me using that webspace and me not using it.  I've had free webspace from my ISP for years, and I rarely used it.
In contrast to Hotmail/Yahoo: 1) I don't have ads.  2) It isn't slow and I don't get popups.  3) iDisk integrates with the operating system.
I don't understand people like you.  It's like trying to explain to a stubborn PC user why I like Macs.  Sure, I can do everything else I need to to on a PC, so why pay more for the Apple Computer?  Because I worship Steve Jobs?  No, so grow and get yourself a real argument, then insult my intelligence some more.  I use a Mac because I get more done and enjoy my computing experience more than on a PC, and to me it's worth a little extra.  I use .Mac for the same reasons.

Oh, and one more thing... everyone can stop throwing around the figure $100... I don't know anyone that's payed $100 for this service yet.  I payed 50, and we have a whole year to see if Apple decides to change their pricing scheme.  50 dollars is quite a bit different from 100 when you're talking about the price of the service.  It's like 4 bucks a month.  I already mentioned I pay 80-some dollars a year for my other webhost, and that's pretty standard.  "Why would I pay for professional webhosting on top of my ISP," I suppose you'll ask next.  Same answer: Because I want to do things differently than I can with my ISPs offerings!  4 bucks a month for what we're getting is by no means a rip off, so go crunch some numbers before coming here and insulting all the users who "got suckered".


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## cokeymon (Oct 3, 2002)

My word!  You're all rather touchy aren't you?  And completely blind as well I might add.  Blind to the faults of the worshipful apple.

I'd just like to add that you shouldn't have to pay a subscription fee to get the full benefit of a new operating system.  M$ was going to do that but withdrew - now Apple refuses to learn from M$'s mistakes.

I wonder how many potential Mac converts would be switched OFF by hearing:

"Yes, OS X.2 is great, but to get true functionality you must pay $100 a year."

Not even M$ would sink so low.  Wise up to yourselves.


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## onegoodpenguin (Oct 3, 2002)

You don't make any sense.  I'll let someone else waste their time in a futile attempt to educate you.


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## cokeymon (Oct 3, 2002)

Haha you lost.  Thanks for the amusement!


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## genghiscohen (Oct 3, 2002)

Count me as another *former* iTools/.mac user.  I'm another one who rarely used iDisk or the free webspace.  $100/year for email?  I don't think so!
There are a couple of free webspace services out there, and if I feel the need for iDisk-like functionality, I can set up an ftp server in 10 minutes.
I've signed up for a free POP3 email account with hotpop.com.  Sure, you have to agree to receive some "targeted" admail, but Mail.app makes it easy to filter them out.


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## hulkaros (Oct 3, 2002)

...Pokemon or whatever you call yourself...

You think all the people who paid for .Mac are suckers because if the didn't pay in the first place then Apple would NOT continue to ask $49/$99 for .Mac, eh?

Well, maybe you are ALL wrong... Well, they could have ENDED the whole thing cause we all know that Apple when feels that a product isn't selling, simply kills it... Newton anyone? Cube? Well, maybe EVEN you got the point...

If not, you, yourself sucks... You suck cokeys! Also, what about you? Your monkey co. that you got there? Do you suck? Suck... Suck... Suck...

And before ANY kind of admin gets over here, suck some more cokeys, because SO FAR, admins DIDN'T stop you from sucking... So there... Suck... Cokeysucker...

You win cokeys... Cokey-sucker... Suck... Suck... Suck until you pass over from sucking...

Buy .Mac service, buy ANY Mac and then get a life because so far you enjoy sucking others lives... Cokey-sucker...

NOTE TO ADMINS: How is this possible? In our News/Rumors forum you let a blind to tell us that we are blinds... A sheep to tell us that we are sheep's... A sucker to tell us that we are suckers... That's good for the forum you fellas... Do something because he/she thinks that this is getting funny!!! 

To all other members of this forum (including guests) I apologize for using language like this... I usually talk dirtier  (this supposedly is a joke --and supposedly this is the moment where you start laughing)


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## boi (Oct 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by cokeymon _
> *My word!  You're all rather touchy aren't you?  And completely blind as well I might add.  Blind to the faults of the worshipful apple.
> 
> I'd just like to add that you shouldn't have to pay a subscription fee to get the full benefit of a new operating system.  M$ was going to do that but withdrew - now Apple refuses to learn from M$'s mistakes.
> ...




you say full benefit. i say additional benefits. i'm running OS X.2 fine without .mac, thanks. i assume you are too. all you do is cast out insults-- you need to learn how to debate and put out some facts, like the ones that have been thrown at you and you seem to ignore, just calling us 'blind'. keep an open mind, try to think before you throw insults around. you sound like a child.


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## cokeymon (Oct 3, 2002)

Oh. My. God.  (And by God I don't mean Steve, I mean Him upstairs).

Look who's got their knickers in a twist!  Feeling short changed perhaps?

I am a proud owner of a Mac; in fact I'm a recent convert.  Perhaps this means that I'm not so gullible as you long term diehards.  It's quite scary how strongly you react in defence of The World's Greatest Company that Cannot do Wrong.


You say keep an open mind blinkered boy?  Try opening your eyes.  Maybe if you weren't so tired on a school night you'd be able to think clearly.

No go back to your homework - try studying some basic ecomonics...

Yours ever,

Cokey the Pokey


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## onegoodpenguin (Oct 3, 2002)

Recent Convert?  Read: Recent ignorant PC user.  Browse through the recent posts in this thread, Cokeymon, and unless you're a complete moron, you will have to admit that your arguments are weak and foolish.  I challenged you personally to come up with something that we couldn't refute in our sleep, and you didn't meet it.  You lost.


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## mdnky (Oct 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by cokeymon _
> *Haha you lost.  Thanks for the amusement! *



You know, my 3 year old cousin act this very same way...


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## roger (Oct 4, 2002)

> try studying some basic ecomonics



Actually, I work in the financial markets and have qualifications in that area.

It seems to me that certain people really didn't like it that Apple dropped iTools. This is because they relied upon it, and it was painful to see your email address disapear unless you pay for .Mac. This brings me back to my original point. If you relied on the email address and the other functionality that much, then you probably should have been paying for it. I am amazed when I hear people complaining that they printed out business cards with _theirname@mac.com_ on them. That is the equivalent of having a free phone service where the phone number could change any day. They wouldn't go down that route, so why the same with email?

R.


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## cokeymon (Oct 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by onegoodpenguin _
> *Recent Convert?  Read: Recent ignorant PC user.  Browse through the recent posts in this thread, Cokeymon, and unless you're a complete moron, you will have to admit that your arguments are weak and foolish.  I challenged you personally to come up with something that we couldn't refute in our sleep, and you didn't meet it.  You lost. *



Recent convert?  Read: Someone who switched because of disgust with M$'s tactics such as product activation.  Apple should be clamouring for switchers like me - there are a lot of people out there who are p*ssed off with M$ who just need a little push to switch.

My "push" was a bonus which meant I could afford the iMac.  Now I've switched, I'm very happy with the Hardware & OS, but not with Apple's recent tactics - very reminiscent of M$.

So when I call you blind, and say study some basic economics,  my reason is, how many potential switchers have backed away becasuse they see Apple becoming M$.  And you guys who constantly and foolishly heap praise on everything Apple does just encourage it to continue in the same way.

Think of the big picture.  I certainly want Apple to succeed cos I love the platform, especially with OS X,  but it'll never gain market share (and hence economies of scale) if it makes mistakes like charging for .mac.

So, again, I must say:

Open your eyes - Apple has faults.

And exactly what have you said that is worth refuting?

And which of my arguments was "weak" and "foolish"?  You're as bad as a linux freak "My OS can do no wrong".


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## Hypernate (Oct 4, 2002)

I'm going to add my views to this 'discussion'.

One of the things that I loved about my mac was that I could get this great mac.com email address that meant that I couls show off to everyone that I used a great machine (and provided advertising for apple), but that was taken when the .mac was introduced. I was disappointed, but I got over it, because I just switched back to my ISP email (my ISP provides 5 addresses for my account type), but who wants ***@iinet.net.au ? The worst part was the inconvinience of swapping back, along with the fact that I get some SPAM in my ISP email.

Now, as far as the extra .mac featurs (back up etc.) go, I think that paying totally fair. And for email, yes, I think that for a high quality email service, paying is fair, but NOT US$100. I'm a 15 year old Australian. That's about $200 for me. I have a shitty job at McDonald's. I only get Australia $5.62 an hour. I can't afford $100 for an email. I think staggered pricing would be good, but, it's not of huge importance, since I still have email. But that's jsut my opinion, and I don't plan to argue. 

I don't agree with apple using iTools as bait. They'd advertised it as a free feature right up to switching to .mac. If they had stopped advertising it, that would have been fine, but the baiting was unfair. I don't mind them charging for the service though, seeing as it does cost them a lot, plus I don' thtink it was fair that some people thought they had a right to 8 @mac.com email addies.....


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## edX (Oct 4, 2002)

ok, i have one day where i have too much to do to stop in here as usual and this is how things go. i'm not going to bother with all the usual warnings and threats. the thread is now closed. i hope you all had fun.


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