# BILL & HP copy APPLE Design



## genehack (May 6, 2003)

I hate em -on the other hand-this message timed in these days shows clearly APPLE is on the right track!

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/134689749_winhec06.html


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## hulkaros (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by genehack _
> *I hate em -on the other hand-this message timed in these days shows clearly APPLE is on the right track!
> 
> http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/134689749_winhec06.html *



It would be better for all of them if they simply roll over and die and let Apple do what does all those years:
-> Innovate <-

And for all those iWhiners which always have something negative to say about Apple it seems that after all Apple was doing all those years the right thing and continues to do so! By combining software and hardware under one umbrella, clearly after all, Apple is on the hot spot...

I cannot wait for Win2004-5 only to have people actually see that they can have with Wintel what Mac users had with Apple 3-4 years earlier... Great laughs for me! 

As for Athens Wintel it would be better if M$ paid Apple in order to resurrect Cube paired with Cinema Display 23" and a G970... Great fun to be had by the Dark Side... Only if... 

Also, for this:
"Assuming the industrial designs are on par with some of the technology that's coming out, in 2005 you get a device that's much easier to hook up, much more secure, quite a bit faster, closer to instant on and off, and that combination of things is expected to bring people back to the stores,"
I simply say to those fellas locate your nearest Apple Store, get in, buy some Apples, get out, enjoy! Stop waiting for the Wintel to catch up! 

Finally, for this:
"It may not be a coincidence that the Athens PC resembles an Apple machine, with rounded corners, a translucent case and  a flat, wide display. HP executive Louis Kim acknowledged the similarities, noting, "Apple is on a similar track in that they're designing with the end-user in mind and they're integrating hardware and software." 
But he said the Athens was designed for functionality, not fashion."
Now, to be for fashion as well as function it would be too hard for the Wintel side, wouldn't it? Nah! Let Apple do both of these things in order for you to be able to do piss poor copy jobs dummy Sith Lords of the Dark Side!   

Oh, almost forgot this:
"When the hardware receives an incoming call, the software automatically pulls up the caller's contact information and photo if the data are stored on the system."
OS X Address Book + OS X Bluetooth + SE T68i = Anyone? 

What's next? A Wintel that has no Floppy and no PS/2 slots? 

NOTE TO ADMINS
------------------------
Change the main title into this:
BILL & HP copy EVERYTHING from APPLE!


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## genehack (May 6, 2003)

well the hardest thing is the desktop image of this crap.
Bill is maybe pissed by Cupertino for their own office developement now.
And look at this Gates careerist lookalike


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## tsizKEIK (May 6, 2003)

(that BILL-wannabe is ugly.) the keyboard is ugly. the display is ugly.the mouse is ugly... 

do they try to make them that ugly on purpose... or are they just incapable of designing something nice for a change???


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## GroundZeroX (May 6, 2003)

If you do some research, you'll find that its almost an exact copy of a design Apple and Frog Design did at least 5 years ago. Go to The Apple Collection, and you'll see the computer I'm talking about. I believe its under Apple Prototypes around the last pages of the archive. The only big difference would be the color. The design they had back then that never made it to production was black,.


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## hulkaros (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by tsizKEIK _
> *(that BILL-wannabe is ugly.) the keyboard is ugly. the display is ugly.the mouse is ugly...
> 
> do they try to make them that ugly on purpose... or are they just incapable of designing something nice for a change??? *



Calm down! They may be ugly but at least they are functional unlike Apple's where looks come first then at distant comes the function, if ever...


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## bjurusik (May 6, 2003)

How are people so blind? <BR><BR>



> It may not be a coincidence that the Athens PC resembles an Apple machine, with rounded corners, a translucent case and  a flat, wide display. HP executive Louis Kim acknowledged the similarities, noting, "Apple is on a similar track in that they're designing with the end-user in mind and they're integrating hardware and software." But he said the Athens was designed for functionality, not fashion.



Is on a similiar track?  No, Apple pretty much started this track and others are copying it because they see the great benefits.  And fashion over functionality?  That's about the dumbest statement I have ever heard.  Apple boxes and PC boxes offer the exact same functionality, but Apple does it by looking good.  Look at the iMac compared to the Profile4, the iMac's screen not only tilts but swivels.  That's pretty functional for sharing ideas.  But then again, Apple doesn't offer any see thru cases with bright lights so you can see the fan spinning and all the pretty wires running all over the place, darn.  <BR><BR>



> "There was no intent to try and mimic Apple here," said Kim, HP's worldwide director of marketing for business desktop computers.



Bull.  The whole article glorifies things to come from Microsoft ... things that Apple already has.  Grr, it makes me mad.


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## Androo (May 6, 2003)

Well...
meh i wont  talk for this one.


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## pds (May 6, 2003)

Get a grip folks...

imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

keep innovating Cupertino, but a bit of sincere flattery of wintel speed would be an appropriate response


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## fryke (May 7, 2003)

Please keep the Microsoft bashing at an acceptable level. We all know they do the ugly-stuff, but there's no reason to plot assassinations on our forum.

On topic: Accept that Mac users are the chosen few. 'They' don't have to see what we see. I don't care about someone thinking hp and Microsoft could do something really nice in the future, because I'm actually writing my stories and designing my graphics on a wonderfully (and functionally) designed machine that has an OS integration that Wintels will never reach (or not in time for my next book, anyway).


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## adambyte (May 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by fryke _
> *On topic: Accept that Mac users are the chosen few.*



lol. We're the "Chosen People!" I've always wanted to be Jewish! Some of my friends are Jews, and they're the funniest people I know!

I'm going to be the next Mel Brooks, now that I'm of the "Chosen" people!


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## MisterMe (May 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by adambyte _
> *lol. We're the "Chosen People!" I've always wanted to be Jewish! Some of my friends are Jews, and they're the funniest people I know!
> 
> I'm going to be the next Mel Brooks, now that I'm of the "Chosen" people!  *


We are the chosen _few_, not the _Chosen People_, although some may be both. We are the _chosen few_ because we have brains and aren't afraid to use them.

Nobody said that we were chosen by God. It is inappropriate to imply that we are chosen by God, or to misrepresent the words of others along those lines.


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## KKBFiredancer (May 7, 2003)

"There was no intent to try and mimic Apple here," said Kim, HP's worldwide director of marketing for business desktop computers. 



Yah.  OOooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooook.   Thats what Bill said when windows came out too.


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## genehack (May 7, 2003)

whoa!
PEOPLE this is straight against APPLE,especially the Cube fraction,look:


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## genehack (May 7, 2003)

They have no taste!(Jobs)

http://www.crackman.de/newtenlightment/movies/sjobs/stevejobsonmicrosoft.mov


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## Rhino_G3 (May 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by genehack _
> *They have no taste!(Jobs)
> 
> http://www.crackman.de/newtenlightment/movies/sjobs/stevejobsonmicrosoft.mov *



Ha ha ha, that's good.  It's definately a keeper.


On another note... Microsoft has done quite a bit of innovation on their own.  Look at the Scroll wheel on the mouse.  That right there is the product of microsoft.

As of this moment I'm using a microsoft mouse on my machine. Of course the case has been painted to match my machine and there is no microsoft logo in sight... but it's a Microsoft mouse none the less.


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## monktus (May 7, 2003)

I had a look a the Apple Collection, there are some really interesting prototypes from Apple. They've always had a fantastic industrial design dept, especially with Jonathan Ive around. Unfortunately the Apple Collection site looks awful and they've included some lame photoshop jobs in with real prototypes.

As for the MS article, I think its a natural progression for them and PC design. Since the iMac, Apple have had a much greater influence on computer design, and product design in general. I don't think theres any need to be bitter about the whole thing. Comments like "we're not imitating Apple" seem a bit silly, but what else are they going to say!


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## RyanLang (May 7, 2003)

<br>


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## Arden (May 7, 2003)

I myself am one of the Chosen Both...

Comments like "we're not immitating Apple" are misguided because that's like saying "we're not immitating Ford" with a new automobile.  (FYI, the Taurus started the trend of smooth curves in cars in 1987.)  Microsoft didn't just come up with their own brand of ergonomics for this computer.

Besides, who wants a computer with a remote control?


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## chevy (May 7, 2003)

Yes, HP (with the help of M$) copies Apple. No, M$ doesn't fight against Apple: it fights against Linux.

Apple is quite successful as a hardware manufacturer, they are still able to sell with good margin, what Dell and HP cannot do anymore. Apple is not that success as a software provider: they cannot sell their software with a reasonable margin without the hardware.

Where HP doesn't (officialy) copy Apple (and HP is wrong here) is when it says: we design for functionnality, not for fashion. Everybody knows that in a tough market, only the companies that have this little fashion extra can sell with margin ! Look at Swatch, look at Porsche, BMW or Ferrari, look at Versace... To sell with margin you need uncompromized technology, with a little extra of fashion.


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## chevy (May 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arden _
> *...
> (FYI, the Taurus started the trend of smooth curves in cars in 1987.)  ....*



My remark may be out of subject, but the Taurus may have started the smooth curve trend *in USA*. It's not that new in Europe or in Japan. Look at Audi (or even NSU), look at Mazda.


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## GroundZeroX (May 7, 2003)

Here is a link to the image I was talkign about earlier. http://www.theapplecollection.com/design/macproto/022.html


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## MrNivit1 (May 7, 2003)

Ya know... Even though MS & co try to do the nice designs of Apple, they fall very short.   This prototype has the look of a bulky PC (notice how tall and square the keyboard, screen, and screen stand are).  Ugh... It just feels like a 1980's IBM design... Makes me shudder just looking at it.


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## rhale1 (May 7, 2003)

Ugh. That's just plain wrong-looking. Maybe if you like cold and harsh, but for an office, would sleek and stunning not look better?


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## Stridder44 (May 7, 2003)

GRR! Isn't Microsoft big enough!??? I hope Apple comes out with something one day blows away the PC world! Something that makes every Windows user out there question his or her desire to use Windows. Something completly different, but in a very good way (what I don't know...but something, whether its hardware or software or both). Apple is so much better than Microsoft!


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## malexgreen (May 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by genehack _
> *I hate em -on the other hand-this message timed in these days shows clearly APPLE is on the right track!
> 
> http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/134689749_winhec06.html *



I agree that the monitor is a copy of the Apple Studio display, however the functionality of the hardware/software (integrating video/voice/text data) is definitely unlike anything Apple sells. I think this is another reason why Apple won't make it into corp. America to the extent that MS has.  It seems Panther is going more in that direction (with iChat2.0 supporting video conferencing), but I think Panther should provide a unified tool to read your voicemail, video conference, and email, along with biometric authentication. IMHO.


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## senne (May 8, 2003)

----------------------------

wohow, best video i've ever seen from Steve Jobs!!!! 

-----------------------------

I'm sure that when Apple released this product (the Bill&HP) you guy went like this: "Wooow, NIIICEEE, Verrry cool design! Apple did it again!"

But now M$ has something to do with the computer and you all go like this:
"Ugly. Most ugly computer i've seen. It's so... UGLY"

Try to look at it as a computer which is from NO company, not from Apple, nor from Microsoft/HP. Then say that  you like it or not.

>>>I like it.


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## senne (May 8, 2003)

But i can't deny they haven't copied
Look at the desktop, That's the Apple Desktop!!


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## cellfish (May 8, 2003)

God you people are stupid. Here we have Microsoft and HP creating something new and you guys are all saying that it's ripped off of Apple. Apple did NOTHING like this. The way you guys see it, Apple invented every single geometrical shape and anybody else who uses a shape is automatically a thief.

Your fanaticism is sickening. Do you guys ever wonder WHY people despise Apple and its users so much?

Walking today, I actually realized how people are. PC users demand a lot. When using Windows, they are always faced with better products. They have a better browser in Mozilla and Opera, they have a better instant messenger in Trillian and they have a better picture viewer in AcdSee. As a result, Microsoft is constantly forced to improve its products if it wants to maintain some kind of control. Otherwise, they lose customers to those other, better products. That's why everything that comes from Microsoft has so many great features. On the Apple side though, Apple just throws whatever trash it can your way and you'll just eat it up like french fries. Apple could tomorrow decide to make a program that does nothing else but freeze your computer and one of you fanatics will start a post here talking about how well it works and how efficient it is in freezing the computer. 

You guys make me sick, I'm glad I switched back to the PC.

Andre


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## tsizKEIK (May 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cellfish _
> *God you people are stupid.
> ...
> Your fanaticism is sickening.
> ...



first of all thanx for calling us stupid  

second of all im sorry i found ur comment about microsoft products THAT funny, but it just is. 

third of all, i didnt know that the world hated Apple & its users that much!!! . when i talk to ppl (whove never used an Apple computer) about any Mac, i always get very pleasent comments, and i can reassure you that they dont hate me for using a mac(theyre just Jealous)!

and about the french fries thing.. if u take a look at this site, ull find out that Apple products and their decisions are allways being critisized. the advantages & disadvantages of any new product are always mentioned. eg. Keynote; when keynote came out some ppl where positive bout it, many said that it wont be as good as Powerpoint and that i cant replace it... i dont think that eating it up like french fries..



ohhhh and by the way, IM GLAD that ppl like YOU switch back to PCs (or just never switch) ... because in the end, its ppl like you who eat it up like french fries. and microsoft is the one serving them to you.


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## hulkaros (May 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cellfish _
> *God you people are stupid. Here we have Microsoft and HP creating something new and you guys are all saying that it's ripped off of Apple. Apple did NOTHING like this. The way you guys see it, Apple invented every single geometrical shape and anybody else who uses a shape is automatically a thief.
> 
> Your fanaticism is sickening. Do you guys ever wonder WHY people despise Apple and its users so much?
> ...



...people like us to be happy that "switchers" like you switch back to your Dark Side path...

Good for you! Oh... Could you do us a favor... If you really switched back to the Wintel Heaven of Computing could you really stay there instead of paying us visits here... And if you cannot stay away of the stupid Mac people around could at least next time be more polite? If you cannot behave normal I can relate to that: You are coming from the Wintel world aka Dark Side and I forgive you...

Cellfish? Peace and love man! We love you! You AND the Dark Side... We the stupid Mac fanatics with our sick minds love you... ::love:: 

::love:: ::love:: ::love:: ::love:: 

Spread the ::love:: Cellfish!


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## binaryDigit (May 8, 2003)

Well i think that once you get beyond the ranting, that cellfish does have a point.  His point is that there is a mindset that exists on this site that makes some folks here very narrow minded when it comes to the pc world in general and Micro$oft in particular.  It isn't a simple feeling that their chosen platform is superior, it's a smugness that is more borne out of ignorance (not a "stupid" ignorance, more of a "not being aware, and not wanting to" ignorance).

What's funny is that you'd think that Mac folk would be more in tuned with simply judging a platform through propaganda and mob mentality, but I guess being on the receiving end has a tendency to make you unaware when you are on the giving end.

Those who are not so one sided in their opinions can easily be frustrated.  When you look at the hardware on a Mac today, what do you see?  PCI, AGP, USB, IDE, DDR all of which appeared on pc's first.  On a modern Mac, other than the MB chipsets and firewire, there isn't an Apple innovated part, it's no different than a PC.  Appearance/packaging is really the one area that Apple has shown true innovation.

So the fact that Apple popularized the translucent skin is what people focus on when they see a pc with similar styling, not the fact that on the inside, the roles are almost reversed.

As for switching back, well, I surely wouldn't base any descision on the users on this board (or any others for that matter).  If the machine does what you need and you're happy using it, then use it.  That's why I use both (and some others).

BTW, Apple has long ago released programs that seemingly do nothing but lock up your computer (multi-finder is the first one I can think of), and lord knows this was a common occurance pre OSX days (just ask my wife)


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## hulkaros (May 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by binaryDigit _
> *Well i think that once you get beyond the ranting, that cellfish does have a point.  His point is that there is a mindset that exists on this site that makes some folks here very narrow minded when it comes to the pc world in general and Micro$oft in particular.  It isn't a simple feeling that their chosen platform is superior, it's a smugness that is more borne out of ignorance (not a "stupid" ignorance, more of a "not being aware, and not wanting to" ignorance).
> 
> What's funny is that you'd think that Mac folk would be more in tuned with simply judging a platform through propaganda and mob mentality, but I guess being on the receiving end has a tendency to make you unaware when you are on the giving end.
> ...



Yeah... I bet that you can find Firewire2, Airport Extreme, Bluetooth, similar to iLife apps, PCI 64 bits, high quality boxes (not just design), Gigabit ethernet, DVI/ADC output or if you prefer double monitor support, Rendezvous, 2d/3d GUI, really THAT easy networking with UNIX, MACs, LINUX, WINDOWS, etc. OSes, DVD playback support, AAC & MP3 support,

AND MANY OTHER Apple Mac + OS X things

in the Dark Side Joe computers...

Oh, and USB lives at Wintels thanks to iMac 97... 

But then again, Wintel rules and they are the best... They will really innovate when they will come out with Windows 2005 and Athens PCs... You know... You will minimize an app and you will be able to view the minimized contents real time... Innovation alright... 

Wintel rules! Apple never did anything for computers in general... Never does... Only Wintel... Long live the Wintel... Praise the Wintel and BinaryDigit for letting us know how truly Wintel innovates and Apple just copies from them...

Oh, and yes we are narrow minded and stupid and ignorant and...

Wintel is the best... Wintel rulez!


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## tsizKEIK (May 8, 2003)

dear binarydigit ,
in comparison to other ppl on this forum, my knowldedge on computers is very very limited. thats one reason why i liked the mac. its easy to use!!! its appearance is great and its packaging is user friendly. when i added extra RAM to my mac all i had to do is pull a button so that the case opens and just insert it in the slot (which was very easy to locate). when i tried to do that on my PC some years ago it was much harder. i opened the box and it was like a jungle in there (like all PC boxes (i think)) and i didnt know where to put the damn RAM . apart from that i was told that i would have to make some changes through the BIOS, which seemed like a bad idea since i had never been through this process before(and was afraid that id mess things up). thats why the macs packaging is a great advantage to inexperienced users like me!!!

but the OS is an even greater advantage to me. when i used windows i had many PROBLEMS and queries, and id have to ask my cousins for help all the time. with the mac i have fewer queries, and..... there are NO PROBLEMS anymore. yuuupiii!!!

for a company that is only around 4% of the global market... i think im very satisfied with Apples hardware innovations. if they had the capital that Microsoft has, in order to invest into new serious technologies (and not toilet PCs), im sure we would have seen more amazing things.
but even so.. i get to have AAC on my firewire iPOD and iTunes on my computer!!! combine all of these and u can get fast and portable music in your mp3 player with great ease (thanx to iTunes).... Where is MICROSOFTS innovative mp3 player ??? 

im not a PRO user. im learning more day by day. and with the mac its easy to learn more because no problems get in ur way(eg blue screens).

for YOU, the mac might not be satisfying on its own, the PC might be more advanced in other areas, and as a result you might have to use both at the same time. i dont believe thats a bad thing, but I can get everything done with my mac and in a faster/easier/less stressful way 

i dont know if ull bother reading my post! if u do, u might still believe that Apple has only truely innovated in appearance/packaging. they might have copied many things from pcs, but at the end of the day, even if they did, they didnt just copy it, they improved it. and thats why im writing to you through a Mac at this instant


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## binaryDigit (May 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by hulkaros _
> *Yeah... I bet that you can find Firewire2, Airport Extreme, Bluetooth, similar to iLife apps, PCI 64 bits, high quality boxes (not just design), Gigabit ethernet, DVI/ADC output or if you prefer double monitor support, Rendezvous, 2d/3d GUI, really THAT easy networking with UNIX, MACs, LINUX, WINDOWS, etc. OSes, DVD playback support, AAC & MP3 support,
> *
> 
> ...


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## cellfish (May 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by hulkaros _
> *Yeah... I bet that you can find Firewire2, Airport Extreme, Bluetooth, similar to iLife apps, PCI 64 bits, high quality boxes (not just design), Gigabit ethernet, DVI/ADC output or if you prefer double monitor support, Rendezvous, 2d/3d GUI, really THAT easy networking with UNIX, MACs, LINUX, WINDOWS, etc. OSes, DVD playback support, AAC & MP3 support,*



This paragraph proves the ignorance of Mac users. While Firewire 2 is not on PC's (not that anyone really cares), Airport Extreme is just 802.11g which first appeared on the PC, Bluetooth as well first on PC, iLife nobody cares, PCI 64 will be on the PC first, Gigabit Ethernet was PC first, DVI output is practically standard now on the PC on top of the VGA output, double-monitor support has existed on the PC since the Matrox G450 was released in 1999, 2D/3D gui is nonexistant on the Mac (3d acceleration does not make OS X a 3D OS and 3D acceleration is not necessary for Windows considering how fast it is). To be completely honest about your last comment, I find networking WAY easier on the PC than on the Mac.


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## cellfish (May 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by tsizKEIK _
> *firewire iPOD and iTunes on my computer!!! combine all of these and u can get fast and portable music in your mp3 player with great ease (thanx to iTunes).... Where is MICROSOFTS innovative mp3 player ??? *



Let's think a bit. How will a Microsoft portable music player improve the quality of the OS? Why do MAc users constantly support the 'quality' of OS X by mentioning things that aren't even included in it? the iPod is an OPTION and it is an option that is available for Windows as well. In fact, you can use a great variety of MP3 players that cost less than the iPod and be sure that it'll work properly with Windows. You can't be that sure with OS X. If you want an MP3 player that'll work fine in OS X, don't try to save money, just go to Apple's product. It's fun to have Big Brother Jobs force me down to one choice.


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## binaryDigit (May 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by tsizKEIK _
> *dear binarydigit ,
> in comparison to other ppl on this forum, my knowldedge on computers is very very limited. thats one reason why i liked the mac. its easy to use!!! .... *



Yes, I did take the time to read your post  

I just want to make it clear (I'm just clarifiying here, I don't want it to sound like I'm upset).  Never did I say that Apple was not innovative.  Never did I say that Apples didn't do many things better than Wintel.  Never did I say that Wintel was "better" than Apple.  Reread my posts, I NEVER make these statements.

I merely said that Apple also borrows many things from the Wintel side.  That there is certainly innovation going on on both sides of the fence.  My post merely responds to those who would claim that it is ONLY coming from the Apple side.

I'm sure that for you the Mac is the superior solution.  As well, I know that my usage pattern is a lot different because of my level of knowledge vs other people.  But it is my experience, specifically with both Apple and Wintel boxes that makes me get a bit riled up when people take such a one sided (and usually incorrect) view of the computing world.

The Mac is a wonderful system, I'm typing this now on my Pismo.  I have more Macs in my house than most people have ever had, or will have.  But I also use PC's and can see the uses for it.  And I've been around long enough to have seen the good and bad sides of both platforms.  So by defending the PC, I am not slamming the Mac.  I know that's how many people like to read it, but that's the sad part.  That's like having someone rave about the superior aerodynamics of the Ferrari formula 1 car, then I say "did you know that Lotus ushered in the modern era of ground effects" and the reply suddenly being "why do you hate Ferrari, despite what you say, they are innovative".  Hey, never said they weren't, just trying to bring some history, knowledge, and perspective.

Anyway, i'm sure this entire thread will get moved since it's obviously gotten way beyond it's original topic.  So, are Apples excellent computers that are showcases for some excellent design and engineering, yup, without a doubt.  Does the current Mac still owe a lot of what it is to the Wintel world, yup.  Is there innovation going on in the Wintel camp, yup.  Is there some "borrowing" going on in the Wintel camp, yup.  Is the Mac the end all be all of computing, nope.  Are Wintels the end all be all of computing, nope.


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## binaryDigit (May 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cellfish _
> *This paragraph proves the ignorance of Mac users. While Firewire 2 is not on PC's (not that anyone really cares), Airport Extreme is just 802.11g which first appeared on the PC, Bluetooth as well first on PC, iLife nobody cares, PCI 64 will be on the PC first, Gigabit Ethernet was PC first, DVI output is practically standard now on the PC on top of the VGA output, double-monitor support has existed on the PC since the Matrox G450 was released in 1999, 2D/3D gui is nonexistant on the Mac (3d acceleration does not make OS X a 3D OS and 3D acceleration is not necessary for Windows considering how fast it is). To be completely honest about your last comment, I find networking WAY easier on the PC than on the Mac. *



Just want to point out that dual monitor support has been around since way before the G450.  I was doing dual monitors on my Millenium I's.  The G450 was the first mass produced card that allowed you to go dual head with a single card.  The old way was to simply have two cards.  It still worked perfectly though (well, not really "perfectly" as the windowing behaiour was/is weird, at least in my book, but it worked).

Oh and PCI64 is very common on many server/highend workstation PC's.  As well as 66mhz PCI.  The Intel server that I have has 6 64bit/66mhz hot swappable PCI slots.  Not that it really matters as other than SCSI cards and gigabit ethernet cards, I don't know of any other 64bit PCI cards (or anything that would truly benefit, since the only other candidate is graphics and that has become the domain of AGP).

And I think his gigabit comment has more teeth in that Apple has made gigabit "standard" on their tower machines.  AFAIK, no other manuf. is doing this on anything but their highest end boxes.  So they do have a leg up, I'd love to have gigabit running at home, though the cost of gigabit hubs is way too high right now.  BTW, I do have two gigabit PCI cards, it actually swamps one of my test mule PC's, it's only an Athlon 700 and it actually is the limiting factor when it's being fed by a much faster machine, very sweet.  But like I said, until the availability of cheaper hubs/switches, it's not really practical for me (and many businesses, who are perfectly happy with 100Mb).


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## Anim8r (May 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cellfish _
> *This paragraph proves the ignorance of Mac users. While Firewire 2 is not on PC's (not that anyone really cares), Airport Extreme is just 802.11g which first appeared on the PC, Bluetooth as well first on PC, iLife nobody cares, PCI 64 will be on the PC first, Gigabit Ethernet was PC first, DVI output is practically standard now on the PC on top of the VGA output, double-monitor support has existed on the PC since the Matrox G450 was released in 1999, 2D/3D gui is nonexistant on the Mac (3d acceleration does not make OS X a 3D OS and 3D acceleration is not necessary for Windows considering how fast it is). To be completely honest about your last comment, I find networking WAY easier on the PC than on the Mac. *



This is the problem with these silly arguments. erroneous information.

While G and Bluetooth hardware may have been available from 3rd party vendors earlier than that which was integrated on the Mac... did you ever try and use either on the PC? Bluetooth in particular was a joke.

Oh, and there are quite a few companies very interested FW2. Particularly in the video industry... but for a lot of other uses.

Dual monitor support has been available on the mac since... well the SE (80's). In fact the macs back then supported up to 6 monitors. You just plug in another card. They don't even have to be from the same manufacturer. Ever try that on Windows?

It is pretty obvious that you don't understand half of the points you have made.

OSX is a 3D OS. Each element is a layer in OGL. MS has said this will be a part of Longhorn, but it is currently not implemented.

I liked your comment about networking. It made me laugh. I have 2 XP machines here that won't see each other, well... sometimes they decide to work. The macs on the other hand see each other as well as my PCs. Oh and GB ethernet was also a Mac first.

If you want to verify any of this I suggest going to PC magazine's website and looking it up. Even the PC mags gush over Apple's innovation and they seem pretty impressed with what Apple has had to offer these past couple of years.


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## Ugg (May 9, 2003)

Given the success of the entire Mac line there's no doubt that people will try to emulate it as much as possible.  There have been numerous attempts to create something other than the "beige box".  None of those attempts has succeeded.  I can't think of any one brand that has any kind of long running design success.  Every time I go to Costco it seems as though there is an entirely new line up of wintel boxes.  All of them trying to distinguish themselves visually.

It is interesting that Bill is showing an interest in the design side of computers and that he is beginning to push a cohesive "digital" whatever.  Up til now M$ has had a less than stellar lineup when it comes to a digital hub.  I can't think of any one product or line of products that has taken the pc world by storm.  

Apple has the definitive advantage in that it controls the hardware and the software.


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## binaryDigit (May 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Anim8r _
> *T...Dual monitor support has been available on the mac since... well the SE (80's). In fact the macs back then supported up to 6 monitors. You just plug in another card. They don't even have to be from the same manufacturer. Ever try that on Windows?...*



Six display cards in an SE  !?!  Now *that* would be a sight   Guess the cards were velcroed to the exterior of the case and chained together with a ribbon cable   That and the speed would have been atrocious since the cpu wouldn't even have come close to being able to keep up with all that info.  Now daisy chaining six SE's with Appletalk, now that was/is doable and having some amount of screen synchronization.  You could do some cool video wall effects with that, even back then.

One of the biggest problems with Windoze has been it's too tight integration with it's video drivers.  This allows for some very impressive performance numbers, but it makes writing good quality drivers more difficult and makes extending the display subsystem substantially harder (hence the up till now rarity of going dual displays and the impossibility to do it in a heterogenous video card setup).  But then again, from a software design standpoint, the lack of clear delineation between various levels of functionality is a general weakness of the entire platform (e.g. IE).


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## binaryDigit (May 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ugg _
> *...
> It is interesting that Bill is showing an interest in the design side of computers and that he is beginning to push a cohesive "digital" whatever.  Up til now M$ has had a less than stellar lineup when it comes to a digital hub.  I can't think of any one product or line of products that has taken the pc world by storm.
> 
> Apple has the definitive advantage in that it controls the hardware and the software. *



Actually I think that there are three primary reasons that Billy Boy is taking a keen interest in hardware design recently:

1 - Linux.  The more you ingrain the software with the hardware, the more difficult it is for other OS's to offer similar levels of functionality in a timely fashion.

2 - Less Pressure From the Feds.  Now that the govt has basically screwed the pooch with this whole M$ monopoly thing, they don't feel they have the IBM spector above their heads (i.e. IBM got slammed mightily for controlling both software and hardware, hence the rise of M$ to begin with).  They no longer fear the govt and therefore have no problems with letting those tentacles reach a little further.

3 - Sony.  M$ is losing the console wars, badly.  If Sony is ever successful in pushing the Playstation platform beyond the console, then M$ needs to be able to respond, and XBox ain't it.


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## tsizKEIK (May 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cellfish _
> *... While Firewire 2 is not on PC's (not that anyone really cares),
> ...Bluetooth as well first on PC,
> ...iLife nobody cares,
> ...To be completely honest about your last comment, I find networking WAY easier on the PC than on the Mac. *



. so ur sayin that u wouldnt like firewire2 on ur PC ? wouldnt u prefer having external device (say a hard disk) with firewire 2 instead of usb 2(which is much slower)??? if u dont than then i think ur a masochist  and anyway who cares bout u ? im sure Real pros do need firewire 2!!!

. nobody cares about iLife? that would be because u have better apps on the PC(right??) ? could u care to name them? 

.have u actually hade any job experience with a network of PCs ??? im sure ud encounter many problems  (thats not called easier)


ohhh.. and in the long run . it doesnt really matter who brings in new technologies to our computers. what matters is who takes advantage of them and who makes it easier to use! ive got sony ericsson p800. ive tried the bluetooth on the pc. it doesnt really work. any problems on my mac ??? the answer is NO  thats all folks !!!


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## hulkaros (May 9, 2003)

You AND Cellfish name a Wintel that has the things that the Apple has in PowerMacs as well as the cost for that config... Oh, and name the companies too! Then go ahead and buy that thing actually and then we can have a REAL debate about ease of use, support of new technologies and innovations...

Because BinaryDigit and Cellfish you NEVER worked on a similar Wintels cause if you had you would really know that your replies are... Well, to put it nice:
- Inexperienced

But maybe that's because you BinaryDigit use Windows 2000 instead of Windows XPerience... Heck, you should have used XP more in order to upgrade your XPerience points...





As for USB, if you doubt that it lived on the Wintel side because of iMac then I guess the world is flat for you too! USB on the Wintels before the iMac it was just another port in the back of Wintels!!!   But your reply to USB PLUS all the other replies shows how really open minded the open minded people like you and Cellfish really are... 

As for the OS/2 thing it isn't even from M$ AND the M$ did their best in order to kill it... But the thing you mention, could you redirect me to more info... Because, frankly I have a 486/80MHz running OS/2 Warp 3 and I can install anytime Warp 4 and I never saw the OS do the minimize effect showing real time the contents of a given app...


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## j79 (May 9, 2003)

This is somewhat off topic (considering it doesn't have much to do with PC / Mac stats.. or, umm, why one is better than the other..)

Just that, when I saw this image:






I immediatly thought of this (like, their inspiration..):





^_~

Anyways, just wanted to share that 4 minute photoshop piece with you guys... (yes, I felt proud of the work...)

Feel free to commence the PC/Mac arguments.


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## MikeXpop (May 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cellfish _
> *PC users demand a lot.*


Yes they do. Like when I was working on my PC last night. I demanded that Windows not completely ruin a huge school project (that was due the next day) and destroy 11 hours of painfully detailed and hard work, then decide that the video capture device that had worked fine for the past 5 days didn't exist anymore, all at 11:00 PM. Windows failed me. And my Apple just plain doesn't. It's an operating system that listens to me, and most of all, it's an operating system that knows when devices are plugged in.

On a side note, I'm excited to see this Microsoft/HP thing. I hope I can get my mother to replace our old dell with one, so then maybe my video editing projects would work (they might actually go at a reasonable speed too  )


lol, and funny photoshop j79.


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## Anim8r (May 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by binaryDigit _
> *Six display cards in an SE  !?!  Now that would be a sight   Guess the cards were velcroed to the exterior of the case and chained together with a ribbon cable   That and the speed would have been atrocious since the cpu wouldn't even have come close to being able to keep up with all that info.  Now daisy chaining six SE's with Appletalk, now that was/is doable and having some amount of screen synchronization.  You could do some cool video wall effects with that, even back then.
> 
> One of the biggest problems with Windoze has been it's too tight integration with it's video drivers.  This allows for some very impressive performance numbers, but it makes writing good quality drivers more difficult and makes extending the display subsystem substantially harder (hence the up till now rarity of going dual displays and the impossibility to do it in a heterogenous video card setup).  But then again, from a software design standpoint, the lack of clear delineation between various levels of functionality is a general weakness of the entire platform (e.g. IE). *



Sorry... I forget you young whippersnappers don't know what it was like.
There were two commercially available card cages for the SE and SE-30 that added up to 6 additional card slots. Both were SCSI and had a high enough data transfer rate to allow for color video cards.
Let's also not forget that display graphics were not what they are today. The speed was just fine.
I believe the SE version came with a card interface as well.
Yeah, the Appletalk networking was fun... I remember the energizer bunny hack from way back.... used to make the bunny march across sequential screens in a network banging his frickin' drum. You never knew when it was going to get back to your screen.


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## anerki (May 9, 2003)

*cough* Flamewar *cough*


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## fryke (May 9, 2003)

You're right, anerki, and we don't like those.

I'm closing this thread now for this reason, and also because there doesn't seem to be a 'right' other forum to move the thread to. This is Apple News & Rumors, and this thread certainly isn't that.


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## fryke (May 9, 2003)

Okay... I revise my 'judgement-too-fast' of before and reopen this in opinions...


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## anerki (May 9, 2003)

There are plenty of reasons to use both Mac and PC, it's all about personal taste, but most people who've experienced Mac choose Mac ... Why? Their choice, they can ask for advice, it happens a lot on Macosx.com but please, respect peoples opinions ... If they want to use PC instead or Mac, let them! Fanatical Mac-users aren't going to change the world ... 'Nuance' is a beautiful world (translation to English plz? [Toast, you're the expert here])

Windows copied a lot from Mac ... Mac copied a lot from Windows I'm sure ... (Where did control-click and tabs and all that stuff come from, thin air?). Let it be, it was said somehwere in this thread: Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery ...) If something is good or succesful, why be angry about it when PC copies it, why be afraid it will affect Mac? Just let it be, that's the way it is, that's the way it will always be ...

(Cough, so much for the lecture )

Grtz,
.FJ


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## binaryDigit (May 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by hulkaros _
> *You AND Cellfish name a Wintel that has the things that the Apple has in PowerMacs as well as the cost for that config... Oh, and name the companies too! Then go ahead and buy that thing actually and then we can have a REAL debate about ease of use, support of new technologies and innovations...
> 
> Because BinaryDigit and Cellfish you NEVER worked on a similar Wintels cause if you had you would really know that your replies are... Well, to put it nice:
> ...



Not sure what you're trying to say here.  Are you asking for a PC config that is similar to a PowerMac config and then looking at the price?  I wouldn't be surprised that you would end up paying pretty close to the PM after adding 802.11g, Gb ethernet, and Bluetooth.  At least a lot closer than what some PC folk would claim.  But in any case, we were never talking about that.  We were talking about "innovation" and I just pointed out that quite a bit of the hardware in current PMs originated in the PC world.  What type of "experience" are you referring to?  How many years of experience do you have?  How do you know how much experience I do?  Just because I actually successfully use Wintels and you don't, therefore I can't be as big of a user as you?

*
But maybe that's because you BinaryDigit use Windows 2000 instead of Windows XPerience... Heck, you should have used XP more in order to upgrade your XPerience points...
*

True, I just started using XP at work two weeks ago.  Personally I think the interface sucks, I have most of the XP features turned off and use classic mode.  But why would I want to change when Win2K has worked so well?

*
As for USB, if you doubt that it lived on the Wintel side because of iMac then I guess the world is flat for you too! USB on the Wintels before the iMac it was just another port in the back of Wintels!!!   But your reply to USB PLUS all the other replies shows how really open minded the open minded people like you and Cellfish really are... 
*

No I don't doubt it, I know it.  If you read my reply I said that the iMac popularized the port, though pc's shipped with the port first.  Are you saying I'm incorrect, if not, what is the purpose of the flat world remark?  And would you care to be more specific about the second part?  Exactly what did I say that was "wrong" to lead to your second statement.  It would help things if you would address specific issues vs making generalizations.

*
As for the OS/2 thing it isn't even from M$ AND the M$ did their best in order to kill it... But the thing you mention, could you redirect me to more info... Because, frankly I have a 486/80MHz running OS/2 Warp 3 and I can install anytime Warp 4 and I never saw the OS do the minimize effect showing real time the contents of a given app...  *

Isn't even from M$?  M$ originally wrote OS/2.  IBM didn't take over development until after the "rift".  3.0 was the first version that IBM released on their own.

As for the icon modification, take a look at the clock app.  When you minimize it, you have the ability to have it show a miniature version of the clock face.  This is actually very simple to do, as when you get the message telling you to minimize, you can grab the window handle of the icon window, then you're free to do whatever you want.  One of the apps actually showed a miniature version of the document that you were working on, though I can't remember off hand which app it was.  I'll take a look and see if I can find more info for you.


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## ebolag4 (May 9, 2003)

*Puts hands up to screen to warm up.*


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## binaryDigit (May 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ebolag4 _
> **Puts hands up to screen to warm up.* *



Well I hope that I'm not doing too much providing of marshmellow combustion.  hulkie and I just, well, we have this thing  and I do have a tendency to get sucked  in.  I just have this thing about people making statements that don't seem to be based in fact, or at least sound reason.

Anyway, I wish other people would chime in, one way or the other.  I try not to Apple bash, but I'm not going to blow Apple sunshine either.  Ditto M$.  Do you feel that I'm being off base.  Should I just shut up (as if I could  ).  

Just kinda curious what others think (other than being amused/annoyed).


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## hulkaros (May 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by binaryDigit _
> *Well I hope that I'm not doing too much providing of marshmellow combustion.  hulkie and I just, well, we have this thing  and I do have a tendency to get sucked  in.*


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## hulkaros (May 10, 2003)

_Originally posted by binaryDigit _
*Not sure what you're trying to say here.  Are you asking for a PC config that is similar to a PowerMac config and then looking at the price?  I wouldn't be surprised that you would end up paying pretty close to the PM after adding 802.11g, Gb ethernet, and Bluetooth.  At least a lot closer than what some PC folk would claim.  But in any case, we were never talking about that.  We were talking about "innovation" and I just pointed out that quite a bit of the hardware in current PMs originated in the PC world.  What type of "experience" are you referring to?  How many years of experience do you have?  How do you know how much experience I do?  Just because I actually successfully use Wintels and you don't, therefore I can't be as big of a user as you?*

I'm trying to say that Wintel companies were and still play it and safe... For the masses they have the low end stuff and even when you WANT to buy advanced stuff most of them do not offer them... When you want advanced features mostly you custom build your own solution therefore YOU the user is the one who innovates and NOT the Wintel platform in general... And just because stuff originated from Wintel world that doesn't neccesary means that Wintel in general innovates... For example they still aren't abandoning the PS/2, com, lpt, floppy, BIOS, IRQs, etc in order to go ahead with something better  As for succesfully using Wintels, you know what? Good for you... I not only use them but fix them as well... Software, hardware wise and then some... Maybe you too! In any case that doesn't matter! Because in the end I have the access on fixing Macs too and I know that both in using and fixing a Mac everything is just so damn easier... I still wait even for the most advance offerings from the Wintel world to be even close to Macs overall... If you think otherwise I cannot say anythink to convince you! You have your experiences, I have mine...

*True, I just started using XP at work two weeks ago.  Personally I think the interface sucks, I have most of the XP features turned off and use classic mode.  But why would I want to change when Win2K has worked so well?*

I cannot dissagree to that because frankly I find the Windows 2000 platform (all Win2K products) to be more mature and stable compared to newer products like XP and 2003 Server... However, based on my profession I get the chance to use everything even if I don't like to do so  

*No I don't doubt it, I know it.  If you read my reply I said that the iMac popularized the port, though pc's shipped with the port first.  Are you saying I'm incorrect, if not, what is the purpose of the flat world remark?  And would you care to be more specific about the second part?  Exactly what did I say that was "wrong" to lead to your second statement.  It would help things if you would address specific issues vs making generalizations.*

You previously said:
_"What the iMac DID do was to create a market for these peripherals and accelerated the adoption of usb"_
This is not the case... The USB on the Wintel pre-iMac era was just a port on the Wintels and even most of them DIDN'T have it... You had to go on more exotic mainboards in order to have it... The majority of companies pre-iMac didn't even care... Then all of a sudden post-iMac EVERY single Wintel company wanted to offer USB solutions... Therefore iMac not only accelerated the adoption but actually introduced and continously showed how cool USB actually is... And if you prefer iMac actually taught them how to build and support USB solutions... Damn, even the majority of USB Wintel products looked like iMac too!

*Isn't even from M$?  M$ originally wrote OS/2.  IBM didn't take over development until after the "rift".  3.0 was the first version that IBM released on their own.*

No, it isn't! It was a joint OS solution with IBM which M$ actually dropped from before even v2.0 of OS/2 not 3.0... v3.0 of OS/2 just took OS/2 to a whole new level! And this shows what ANY company can do if it hasn't M$ to hold them back... And yes, we all know that OS/2 3 and 4 do even nowadays things that Windows still CANNOT do... Still, too many fixpacks to handle  

*As for the icon modification, take a look at the clock app.  When you minimize it, you have the ability to have it show a miniature version of the clock face.  This is actually very simple to do, as when you get the message telling you to minimize, you can grab the window handle of the icon window, then you're free to do whatever you want.  One of the apps actually showed a miniature version of the document that you were working on, though I can't remember off hand which app it was.  I'll take a look and see if I can find more info for you. *

Come one BinaryDigit... This is isn't across the OS/2 functions and is barely like the universal OS X's minimize funtion... It is like saying that Dock is the same thing like OS/2 v3 launchbar!


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## Satcomer (May 10, 2003)

USB in WINDOWS before 1997. Yes for the x86PC (by the way PC=Personal Computer. Isn't an Apple a personal computer?) but what Windows could you use it for, NT? No, until they released a service pack that you pay for. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Windows 95 have no USB support? Wasn't support held back until Win98? Humm......


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## hulkaros (May 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Satcomer _
> *USB in WINDOWS before 1997. Yes for the x86PC (by the way PC=Personal Computer. Isn't an Apple a personal computer?) but what Windows could you use it for, NT? No, until they released a service pack that you pay for. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Windows 95 have no USB support? Wasn't support held back until Win98? Humm...... *



Sometime at 1997 M$ released Win95 OSR2 which is, if you prefer Win95 Second Edition that offered a limited USB support... It wasn't before the release of Windows 98 that USB started to appear for Wintels... Still, as I said you could find exotic solutions from Wintel companies in order to have a go with Win95 OSR2! Anyways, BinaryDigit no matter what he thinks he knows/believes he cannot remake computer history (hey, maybe Gates but BinaryDigit isn't Gates!?  )... And the computer history says that Wintel should thank again and again Apple for saving their USB bottoms 

The same with the Internet! When Bill Gates said at 1995-1996 that Internet is nothing it was a great moment for Wintels... Then all of a sudden at 1997-1998 and after seeing what other companies offered and especially Apple with its iMac line, M$ discovered the Internet... Welcome to the real world! The world that Wintel truly innovates and Apple copies...  Damn, it wasn't even before the release of Windows 98SE that M$ actually had something to say about the Internet... Before that, hmmm  

If you ask me M$ had its act together with the release of Windows 2000 products family about the Internet, USB and many other technologies that under the heavy hacking of Windows 9x and Windows ME those technologies could literally crash the whole system at any given time and even without actually doing anything!!!  Hench the infinite BSOD screens that people talk all of the time...


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## hulkaros (May 10, 2003)

...I concluded to that... M$ cannot do anything without Apple "experimenting" first!

The effects that they used on those demos were nice but they were screaming OS X that it was to difficult for me not to post here the following...

I have 2 small 320 sized videos running TRANSPARENT above one running 480 sized video doubled in size, while one other 480 video was running minimized while I had other apps like Safari loading web pages, Mail, et al all TRANSPARENT as well... All at the same time of having a DVD playing TOO maximum size TRANSPARENT behind all these...

Now, before anyone will say how this and that I will simply say that I have WindowShade X installed, 512 of RAM and a TiBook of only a 1000MHz...

Anyways, take a look and if you will see those tech demos for LongHorn next time don't despair... OS X rules right here, right now...    

NOTE
--------
Because I could not grab the screen while the DVD was running I closed the DVD player but believe me it runs more than fine...


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## Anim8r (May 10, 2003)

Hulkaros...
Get yourself a copy of vlc (http://versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/14738) and you will be able to do screen caps with a dvd running.


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## hulkaros (May 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Anim8r _
> *Hulkaros...
> Get yourself a copy of vlc (http://versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/14738) and you will be able to do screen caps with a dvd running. *



Thanks for the tip... Although, I have VLC 0.5.3, I didn't think for a second to use it  Sometimes my mind flies  Maybe I will use it in future DVD related screen grabs  

Thanks anyways!


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## binaryDigit (May 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by hulkaros _
> *Sometime at 1997 M$ released Win95 OSR2 which is, if you prefer Win95 Second Edition that offered a limited USB support... It wasn't before the release of Windows 98 that USB started to appear for Wintels... Still, as I said you could find exotic solutions from Wintel companies in order to have a go with Win95 OSR2! Anyways, BinaryDigit no matter what he thinks he knows/believes he cannot remake computer history (hey, maybe Gates but BinaryDigit isn't Gates!?  )... And the computer history says that Wintel should thank again and again Apple for saving their USB bottoms
> *



First of all, I thought this all originated by talking about innovation, not popularization.  PC's had USB ports first, period.  USB was a standard feature of the BX chipset, which was around late 96.  BX and it's followup TX were not "esoteric" or all that high end.  Now you do have a point about weak support in Windoze for it until 98.  But the fact was it was available and usuable (however limited) at least two years before the iMac.  What statement(s) did I make that were somehow "rewriting history"?  That Wintels had USB ports first?  That the Mac popularized the port?  Are these statements not true?  Once again, go back and read what I said. 

*...
Damn, it wasn't even before the release of Windows 98SE that M$ actually had something to say about the Internet... Before that
...*

Just because M$ didn't take the internet seriously before 98SE doesn't mean that Wintel users were somehow "missing out" on the experience.  Wintel users were not dependant on M$ to "get their act together", there were plenty of options to get on the net.  Pre 98 (the year), it wasn't much simpler for Mac users either.  But it was doable for both platforms, get yourself a SLIP/PPP package and an isp and away you go.  Other than the whole browser war thing, M$ was a non factor, but this says nothing for the platforms.  BTW, in what OS level did Apple starting shipping TCP/IP as a "built-in" protocol?  I remember having to actually download a copy of the tcp/ip stack for 3.11, of course this was not an issue with OS/2 and NT3.51.  Was it standard on Win95?  When my wife was accessing the univ. computer on her PB180, they just handed her some floppies and I do remember it having either MacSlip or MacPPP, but I can't remember if it also had the tcp/ip stack as well (OS7).

*
If you ask me M$ had its act together with the release of Windows 2000 products family about the Internet, USB and many other technologies that under the heavy hacking of Windows 9x and Windows ME those technologies could literally crash the whole system at any given time and even without actually doing anything!!!  Hench the infinite BSOD screens that people talk all of the time...  *

On this we agree.  Win2k is actually a very good OS.  Like I said, I haven't used the "consumer" Win versions since 3.11, so I can't personally speak for those, but the concensus is obviously that they are generally crap, and I'd believe it.



> _Originally posted by Satcomer _
> *USB in WINDOWS before 1997. Yes for the x86PC (by the way PC=Personal Computer. Isn't an Apple a personal computer?)*



I believe my statement was that it was available on *Wintel platforms* since before '97, not that Windows fully supported it at the time (similar to plug and pray).  BTW, the whole "PC" thing.  Yes, the Mac is a "personal computer", but there are some of us (esp. old timers like me), who use PC to reference specifically "the IBM PC and it's clones and descendants" whose common moniker is the "PC".  This is a similar problem when referring to DOS, since it commonly refers to the old Microsoft/IBM product (i.e. MS/PC DOS), but is also used in the generic sense (Disk Operating System).  The term Wintel has sprung up, and I try to use that, but sometimes I do fall into old habits.


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## hulkaros (May 12, 2003)

_Originally posted by binaryDigit _
*First of all, I thought this all originated by talking about innovation, not popularization.  PC's had USB ports first, period.  USB was a standard feature of the BX chipset, which was around late 96.  BX and it's followup TX were not "esoteric" or all that high end.  Now you do have a point about weak support in Windoze for it until 98.  But the fact was it was available and usuable (however limited) at least two years before the iMac.  What statement(s) did I make that were somehow "rewriting history"?  That Wintels had USB ports first?  That the Mac popularized the port?  Are these statements not true?  Once again, go back and read what I said. *

Look: I said from the beginning that USB lived on the Wintels thanks to iMac and you still insist on which side had first this and that... I say lived and you say popularized... I think we play with words here...

Look at what Wintels managed to innovate: USB2!!! Which in the majority of tests is behind of even FireWire and it doesn't hold a candle compared to FireWire2... So, if you want to say that iMac just popularized USB that's fine... Go ahead and do so because Apple innovated by giving us something better... USB quality support AND FireWire at the same time...

*Just because M$ didn't take the internet seriously before 98SE doesn't mean that Wintel users were somehow "missing out" on the experience.  Wintel users were not dependant on M$ to "get their act together", there were plenty of options to get on the net.  Pre 98 (the year), it wasn't much simpler for Mac users either.  But it was doable for both platforms, get yourself a SLIP/PPP package and an isp and away you go.  Other than the whole browser war thing, M$ was a non factor, but this says nothing for the platforms.  BTW, in what OS level did Apple starting shipping TCP/IP as a "built-in" protocol?  I remember having to actually download a copy of the tcp/ip stack for 3.11, of course this was not an issue with OS/2 and NT3.51.  Was it standard on Win95?  When my wife was accessing the univ. computer on her PB180, they just handed her some floppies and I do remember it having either MacSlip or MacPPP, but I can't remember if it also had the tcp/ip stack as well (OS7).*

Do you honestly compare iMac's Internet capabilities and ease of use with a Wintel of that time and age? You must be joking, right?  The rest stuff I said was for M$ "innovation" part which I simply reminded you that they didn't even have a plan for the Internet at that time!!! So, how is possible for a company which has no plans for such big things to be a company which truly innovates?  I'm just wondering... 

*I believe my statement was that it was available on Wintel platforms since before '97, not that Windows fully supported it at the time (similar to plug and pray).  BTW, the whole "PC" thing.  Yes, the Mac is a "personal computer", but there are some of us (esp. old timers like me), who use PC to reference specifically "the IBM PC and it's clones and descendants" whose common moniker is the "PC".  This is a similar problem when referring to DOS, since it commonly refers to the old Microsoft/IBM product (i.e. MS/PC DOS), but is also used in the generic sense (Disk Operating System).  The term Wintel has sprung up, and I try to use that, but sometimes I do fall into old habits. *

Yeah... Ok... Wintel truly innovates just because they add more ports and stuff in general in their products... What about the support and the next best idea for those features from Wintel? At least Apple when it offers something which is hardware based the consumer can bet his bottom that he/she will have something to use with that hardware!!! The only ok thing that Wintels seem to have is Athens PC but that will come in the next couple of years and, ahem, oh boy, where did they get those ideads from? 

Oh, and some more questions: Where would be the Wintel DV industry if it wasn't that FireWire from a fruit company which never innovates? 

Look, BinaryDigit in order to end this, for now...  You seem to believe that Wintels really do innovate while I don't... But let's be logical for a moment: With all those HUGE bucks that Wintel seems to earn, do you believe that they really innovate THAT much? Especially when compared relatively with what Apple earns, isn't Apple more of an innovator than Wintels by a HUGE margin?

Last, Mac is the one and truly PC! The Wintel is just a PC wannabe


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## binaryDigit (May 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by hulkaros _
> *Originally posted by binaryDigit
> ...
> Look, BinaryDigit in order to end this, for now...  You seem to believe that Wintels really do innovate while I don't... But let's be logical for a moment: With all those HUGE bucks that Wintel seems to earn, do you believe that they really innovate THAT much? Especially when compared relatively with what Apple earns, isn't Apple more of an innovator than Wintels by a HUGE margin?
> *


*

I think that throughout all of this that you are totally misreading my point.  I never said that "Apple doesn't innovate" or that even "Wintel innovates more than Apple".  Nope, never said that at all.  Go back, read my posts and find me one instance that I claim that Apple doesn't innovate.

Once again all I pointed out was that some innovations DO come from the Wintel side.  And that many of the components that make a modern Mac (hardware wise) originated in the Wintel world.  Thats all, no statements about "The Mac only copies from Wintel", just a simple statement.  You appear to wish to label me a "Wintel Lover" and therefore want to read more into my statements than is there. 

Certainly, for mainstream use, Apple does tend to innovate more than Wintel, esp in the area of integration (both hardware and software).  That makes sense from a market standpoint when you look at a single monolithic monoply (Apple) compared to the hodgepodge that the Wintel world is, where margins are slim and innovation usually only buys you a negative hit on the bottom line.  This of course changes when you start looking outside the consumer mainstream (servers, high end workstations) as it's more fragmented, so some markets the PC tends to see more innovation (raw graphics/video cards, high end scsi/raid controllers, high end ethernet) whereas others the Mac excels (dtp, video editing).

It would make life easier if you would stop misreading my statements as being somehow "anti-Mac/Apple" just because I'm not anti-Wintel *


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## hulkaros (May 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by binaryDigit _
> *It would make life easier if you would stop misreading my statements as being somehow "anti-Mac/Apple" just because I'm not anti-Wintel  *



Ok, you aren't anti-Mac/Apple... You convinced us! But you surely are more of a pro-Wintel... 

Based on your user name the following question is... What kind of a BinaryDigit you truly are? 0 or 1?


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## binaryDigit (May 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by hulkaros _
> *Ok, you aren't anti-Mac/Apple... You convinced us! But you surely are more of a pro-Wintel...
> *



Yes, without a doubt that I am "more" pro-Wintel than many/most here.  I work/have worked with many platforms, and am pro-almost all of them (though there are times when they really hack me off too).  They all have their strengths and weaknesses.



> _Originally posted by hulkaros _
> *Based on your user name the following question is... What kind of a BinaryDigit you truly are? 0 or 1?
> *



See, there you go again, trying to pigeon hole me   As my name suggests, my lot in life is to be one or the other, as need be


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## hulkaros (May 12, 2003)

_Originally posted by binaryDigit _
*They all have their strengths and weaknesses.*

True... 

*See, there you go again, trying to pigeon hole me   As my name suggests, my lot in life is to be one or the other, as need be  *

Dangerous and Disturbing this puzzle is...


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## Arden (May 12, 2003)

Okay, okay, this thread has endured enough mudslinging from both of you and I think everyone reading this wants to just wipe off and call it a day.

Back to the original point of this thread... I think this computer (I've forgotten all the details about it in the snowball fightdesignation, specs, creator, etc.) looks quite a bit like a G4 Cube with an Apple Cinema Display and an ugly keyboard and elegant mouse.  (Ha!  Microsoft does make hardware!  They have the Intellimouse line (an excellent optical mouse), the previously mentioned XBox, and everything else on this page... they just don't make computers.  Good thing too.)

I'm not sure about Longhorn... It sounds like M$ is "borrowing" many of OS X's current innovations (and that's what an innovation, invention, etc. is for: to become standard).  If Longhorn is Windows OS X, to be released in 2005, how far will Apple have come?

And when is someone going to make holography mainstream, a standard, popularized?  (That's another point:  Just because one side or another innovated a feature first, doesn't mean anything unless it's been popularized.  How innovative would you consider USB if it had died?  If an innovative product doesn't go anywhere, it's no use to anyone.  Just because Xerox had a GUI, didn't mean anything; it took Apple to *ahem* innovatively popularize it, bringing this wonderful technology to the masses.)


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## Arden (May 12, 2003)

By the way, could {whoever} post a URL to the aforementioned Longhorn clips?


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## hulkaros (May 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arden _
> *By the way, could {whoever} post a URL to the aforementioned Longhorn clips? *



http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1072789,00.asp

And most of the other sites have the same exact videos but cut in more pieces...


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## Satcomer (May 13, 2003)

I watch two of those videos and all they are doing is just spinning some documents or open windows. What is so special about that?


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## hulkaros (May 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Satcomer _
> *I watch two of those videos and all they are doing is just spinning some documents or open windows. What is so special about that? *



First things first: Those clips were demos for what LongHorn will be capable when it will come out... Not that it will do all those spins, stretches, etc for sure...

Now, what those demos supposedly tell us is that for the first time we will have 3d graphics acceleration for GUI functions in Windows... This 3d stuff will supposedly give new type of applications and in case that the Wintel that tries to run LongHorn lacks 3d hardware capabilities it will default back to the GUI that currently XP has...

When 3d will be on, apps will perform better, faster with no graphics related problems... Everything will work much better than aything XP offers now...

To me all those LongHorn tricks scream OS X all over the place, not in looks, but ways of taking care of things like 2D/3D/video... Previously, in one of my posts, I attached an image which more or less showcased how easy is to reproduce those "future" LongHorn graphics tricks, in our "powerless" Macs  and then some!

In the end all those "innovations" from the Wintel crowd show us that after all Apple for some time is on the right track: Absolute combination of software and hardware, OS with advanced graphic tricks, eye-candy, etc. 

Now, if only Apple will lower their prices some more


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## genehack (May 15, 2003)

Okay Boyz,

this is my first statement since I opened this thread.
The discussion went the whole nine yards,ending as always in endless "retrotechnique"posing.
My wish would have been to bring out further speculation,why a certain Mr. Billyboy(with red hair&pullover)recently hates APPLE so much?!
Is it because of the switcher campaign?
Is it because of the need to grow further(sharheolders love that!)
Is it because of the failed Office coop 
??
Why is he doing it and why does HP help him?!


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## binaryDigit (May 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by genehack _
> *Okay Boyz,
> 
> this is my first statement since I opened this thread.
> ...



I don't think Bill hates Apple at all.  Pretty much every new version of Windoze that comes out M$ tries to make the UI "kinder and gentler" and yes, many of the things they do originated in the Mac world.  I don't know how this somehow translates in Billy "hating" Apple.  M$ is happy to let Apple innovate (and take some of the slings and arrows that results) and then cherry pick whichever features that they see that people like.  I don't think M$ is losing enough market share to Apple due to "switcher" to really care.

Now that said, I think it's good to be mindful of how M$ operates.  Even though M$ as a whole might not view the Mac as a threat, that doesn't mean that whoever is in charge of non-commercial Windoze sales isn't going to look good by keeping OSX/Mac marketshare at bay (or the opposite, look bad if they allow the Mac to take some market share).  M$ is a very competitive company, and this is reflected throughout it's mgmt, not just at the top.  Everyone wants to please the big man, and so many of the aggressive actions they do come more from that.

HP is in this with M$ because HP is losing market share.  Similar to Apple, if you can't fight the unit wars, you start trying to win the feature/innovation wars.  HP has to do something to distinguish themselves and try to stem the Dell tide.  Fighting the margin battle is proving to be expensive and painful.

Oh and what was the failed "office coop"?  And what is "retrotechnique posing"?


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## hulkaros (May 15, 2003)

_Originally posted by genehack _
*Okay Boyz,

this is my first statement since I opened this thread.*

And it seems that you want it to stay that way 

*The discussion went the whole nine yards,ending as always in endless "retrotechnique"posing.
My wish would have been to bring out further speculation,*

I prefer the phrase "Blast from the past" instead of retrotechnique... And who was posing at that? And is that really your wish? 

*why a certain Mr. Billyboy(with red hair&pullover)recently hates APPLE so much?!*

Hate maybe not... Envy? 1000% yes! Because M$ is the biggest computer company up there with IBM et al and a tiny company like Apple has stronger supporters while at the same time M$ has SO many opponents hating them, rightfully or not  It is like Asterix & Obelix where the Roman Empire won every single country that mattered at "that" time except a tiny French village 

*Is it because of the switcher campaign?*

Yes! Because Apple never called Mr.Gates to star on his own Switch ad  Plus, when his company tried to pull a similar "Switch" web site every single company, individual out there, went like buhahaha against M$ 

*Is it because of the need to grow further(sharheolders love that!)*

And because XBOX costs them SOOO much... If you cannot kill Sony, try to kill smaller mosquitos, like Apple 

*Is it because of the failed Office coop 
??*

I wouldn't go that far as to call Office X a failure but at least for what M$ had in mind, it surely looked to them as one... Still, they failed to take in account the fact that although an ok app, it had its fair share of bugs, shortcomings, not the mention the hefty price, too... Damn! It wasn't even a Cocoa app!

*Why is he doing it and why does HP help him?! *

Who else could help them? Compaq? HP and Compaq is one and the same... Dell? They can only go as far to put some components from left and right together... IBM? They seem to prefer Linux and their own solutions at every chance they get... Gateway? Ha ha ha ha ha... Alienware, then? He he he... Sony? No way! They kill them nicely with PS2 as is...

Only HP (HP+Compaq=HP) can help M$ put a uniform computing platform solution which will cover all bases of "original advanced techniques" which all others can then copy... Ha ha ha ha ha he he he


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## genehack (May 16, 2003)

Brilliant.The thread(threat?) is on the right track now.
IBM+Apple,who dream with SONY(since >IBM is developing the next PS Chip WITH them),bring sleepless nights to BILLY.

Maybe Gates really wants to kill the mosquito,although it has already seeded
its eggs.
He´s an allergic.


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## gfen (Jun 8, 2003)

tsezKEIK:
>second of all im sorry i found ur comment about microsoft 
>products THAT funny, but it just is. 

You know what, though, what he said is true. MS is giving the world just as much as anyone else, however, zealotry won't let you see these sorts of things. However, let's not fixate just on MS, but the entire PC world of things, which is what makes it different than Apple...more people care. More marketshare means more production, more support, more everything. More production, more support means more competition. More competition means more features. 

>third of all, i didnt know that the world hated Apple & its users 
>that much!!! . when i talk to ppl (whove never used an Apple 

They do. Mac users are, for the most part, universally reviled among geeks for being the most obnoxious, stuckup, and egotistical types around. Take a look around at the snotty attitudes thrown out here about how MS, or as the perpetually whiny need to refer to them: M$, Microsuck,Microsloth, etc, is a horrible company.

FOr better or for worse, MS gave Apple money to continue. MS continues to give you software products that you need in order to complete. MS provides a reason to not stagnate and fail completely. 

People also need to stop obsessing over how MS steals from the Apple asthetic. First off, MS seems to be a convienent scapegoat for so many, however, is everything REALLY their fault? They're not the end-all be-all of the x86 world, in fact, they're just another cog in the machine (althogh, referring to them as a little cog is a bit of a gross understatement).

Apple theives as much from others, too. The nature of business is to provide a better product than your competitors, so if Apple gives out an easy to use OS, of course their biggest OS competitor will do the same. If they make it pretty, and people care, of course others will respond, too.

The problem is I don't see much of this miracle innovation that Apple is continually praised for. I see some, I see pretty little fruit coloured plastic cases that people seem to like. I see nifty all-in-ones which people also, inexplicably, seem to want. I don't see much else. Heck, even those fruity colours can trace lineage to workstations like the Silicon Graphics units which came it pretty blues and purples and the all-in-ones are nothing more than updated original R2D2 Macintosh computers which were nothing more than wee versions of the original microcomputers and dumb terminals.

MacOS 10? Looks a whole lot like NeXTSTeP to me. Debatable on the innovation front, because while it is a Jobs product, its certainly not an Apple product, its a refined NeXT product. Firewire? Smells like fancy pants USB, everything USB wanted to be, and wasn't, everything SCSI should've been but couldn't (was SCSI an Apple innovation, or something they glommed on early?). The cube was no differant than the SunSparc IPC/IPX, which was just a slab in a smaller footprint.

No one is really innovating, as I see it. They just remake things in a shinier case, woo woo etc. 

>computer) about any Mac, i always get very pleasent comments, 
>and i can reassure you that they dont hate me for using a mac
>(theyre just Jealous)! 

People don't know any better, and its easy to be blindsided by propaganda. OS 10 is what finally convinced me it was time to try a Mac, and only because I loved my old NeXT. The older style MacOS is a hideous atrocity that's completely annoying to work with for anyone who wasn't raised on it. I read things now about it that make me wonder why on earth anyone would've bothered with it so long. Now, however, it seems like its come lightyears ahead of the <9.x series...although, s'funny, that dock seems like its kind of like the W95 taskbar, which I don't quite remember in older versions of MacOS. Are we calling the dock "innovation" now, or are we just going to pretend its not a bite from that other company everyone loves to hate...

>who eat it up like french fries. and microsoft is the one serving 
>them to you.

Y'know, every person out there will take what they get, however, I believe Apple has a tendency to hand out more breadcrumbs and proclaim them cakes than even the much loathed MS.

Sure, MS puts out dogs, and lots of them. However, I was downright appalled when I first installed OS10 on my new mac. It completely lacks just about any useful apps. Stickies is about it. It provides a single timekiller (chess). It lacks little apps like Paint. It has no newsreader (this kills me). It has a CD player that uses up 25% of my CPU. I may have what's considered a slow machine, now (280mhz), however, there's no reason a CD player should pull down that much. 

I suppose its unfair to use your post as teh launch pad for this, however it just happened to be the final straw.

So, the long story short.. Apple starts selling machines that look remarkably like a Sparc from sometime in the 80s (I honestly don't know when the IPC was first produced) with a flat screen monitor. People think that's pretty fab. So, HP and MS come together and show one of their own. Big deal, and tough luck. If Apple are such innovators, then they better pull something pretty spiffy out to compete with products that cost a fraction of what they cost.

Hey, here's an innovation someone aught to consider over at Apple? How about REASONABLE PRICING?

What Apple should truly produce is something dirt cheap, clever looking, and aimed at making people migrate. I'd have gone for it, new. I know lots of people who would. 

I can't justify $1500 for a G4 desktop, $1000 for an eMac is too much for a machine that's too fixed for me, not to mention, I have a pile of PC and other things laying around, and if possible I should be able to use them, at least the monitor, the biggest single expense to a new computer except the actual chassis.

Where's your middle ground, Apple? Where's the NeXTstation 2003? Take a pizza box, put a CD drive in it (in a way I can mount most others in, like the beige power macs). Put your USB and firewire ports on the back. Put your audio on the back. Put a video board with either VGA and DVI ports or at least include DVI->VGA adapter (ps, ditch DVI, if you haven't already) in the box. Hey, if you want to be supernice, use a risercard to an AGP board so we can change it out. Include one other PCI card on a riser board. That gives us some ability to expand. Put a single 3.5" IDE drive sled inside. Now, price it at $700 and watch them come. You've made a perfect machien for people who want some upgradability, who want to use their very expensive PC monitors. Who don't want an all-in-one. Its even stylish, just a little pizzabox style chassis. You can even make it in fruity plastic.

Where is that machine? Why doesn't that machine exist? You cannot compete with $500 Dell and eMachine x86 PCs with $1000 all-in-ones and $1500 desktops.


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## Arden (Jun 8, 2003)

Wow.  I have nothing to say after that.


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## hulkaros (Jun 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by gfen _
> *Blah-blah*



Are you sure you got everything out of your system? 

I hope that you found the inner PeaCe after all those opinions of yours...

I would personally wanted to thank you for sharing your open minded views with us and hopefully some people here will understand the meaning too so that they will see the holy light that Wintel platform spreads uppon the computing world with its pure, fair and square business practices


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## Satcomer (Jun 9, 2003)

<rant starts>
How's does that saying go? "If I had a nickel for every time I have heard that argument, ....".  

I'm not trying to be a troll, it's I hear that argument for cheap pricing almost everyday, multiple times a day! 

My answer is please go take a lesson in economies of scale from an economics class. I'm not going to teach it but please don't go around spouting cheap prices from Apple until you learn the economies of scale.

Don't they teach economics in high school anymore? 

Plus, before you say "I'm an art, music (or something else) major so ..." just think why one should take at least on economics class. Do you buy objects, have an income, finance goods, etc.? Then you should learn about basic economics.

<rant ended>


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## gfen (Jun 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by hulkaros _
> *Are you sure you got everything out of your system?
> *
> 
> ...


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## Satcomer (Jun 10, 2003)

Don't Feed the Trolls!


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## hulkaros (Jun 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Satcomer _
> *Don't Feed the Trolls! *



Copied that!


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## chevy (Jun 11, 2003)

Apple is so bad that
1) It's one of the most famous brand worldwide
2) It makes money
3) It has been created in 1974 and is still alive. How many computer companies do you know that are that old ? IBM, yes. HP ? they changed their business, but ok I take it. And ?
4) It has created an operating system and still makes money selling it. How many companies do you know that still make money selling an OS for consumers ? Microsoft, yes of course. And ?

Evolution doesn't select the best, but the fitest... and Apple is still alive.


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## gfen (Jun 11, 2003)

I'm a troll because I'm pointing out obvious flaws in the displayed zealotry?

Hardly.

Am I trying to fan the flames to start people into some sort of a war? Well, not really. I honestly do want to know what all this terriffic innovation is, though, cause I've never seen it.

Perhaps I need to explain: I like the Macintosh. I've always admired Apple's offerings, from a hardware standpoint. I've always thought their software left alot to be desired. Lately, though, I reverse those. Either way, I'm not a basher. I'm certainly not a troll, I just grate under the constant nonsense spouted by the zealots.

This holds true for all zealotry, including the PC zealots, the linux zealots (who were only slightly less annoying than the Be zealots).


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## binaryDigit (Jun 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chevy _
> *Apple is so bad that
> ...
> Evolution doesn't select the best, but the fitest... and Apple is still alive. *



Actually in this case "bad" is a reference to business tactics and not to represent a company being poorly run (before anyone chimes in, I'm neither agreeing or disagreeing, just clarifying).  Note that your points about Apple can exactly be mapped onto Microsoft (assuming a somewhat liberal interpretation of "computer company" in point 3), and it's Microsoft that many here would ascribe the term "bad" to.


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## chevy (Jun 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by binaryDigit _
> *Actually in this case "bad" is a reference to business tactics and not to represent a company being poorly run (before anyone chimes in, I'm neither agreeing or disagreeing, just clarifying).  Note that your points about Apple can exactly be mapped onto Microsoft (assuming a somewhat liberal interpretation of "computer company" in point 3), and it's Microsoft that many here would ascribe the term "bad" to. *



I separated "computer company" from "OS provider" on purpose. 

BTW Microsoft is not as "old" as Apple is, not a big difference but still a difference.

Microsoft made a fantastic work, and is no1 in OS, no doubt. This does not mean that no2 is small or bad. Competition is so: there is a no1, but no2 is no shame. And places change with (more or less) time.


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