# Policy on Warez, Serialz, and P2P Discussions



## edX (Nov 30, 2003)

people who come here to request warez help will be banned immediately with no warnings. in the past warnings have been issued to give some people the benefit of the doubt. no more. 


so DO NOT post asking for serial numbers, shared software or anything like this. do not ask what the best p2p app is nor where to get a good spam client.


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## Zammy-Sam (Nov 30, 2003)

Hmmmm, who is judging about it? I mean, recently I had a discussion with one moderator, if asking for a way to not use the CD for the game play is warez or not..
Also had a discussion with one that had probs to send a mail to many recipients. It doesn't necessarily mean spaming, but it could be...


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## edX (Nov 30, 2003)

the moderators and admins will be the judges of this, just as we are the judges of all the rule infractions on this site. asking a mod before you post if you're not sure is a good idea. but this is not a response to the many gray areas we encounter from time to time. this is a response to a rash of people showing up here and asking for warez in their first few posts.


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## Randman (Nov 30, 2003)

I'd make this a sticky on the other threads as many people don't come read this first off, especially new posters. And if there are any switchers, or Windows folks, talk of warez seems to be a little more common. Banning someone for talking of it is fine by my book, but I would think it a good policy to warn people as much as possible as well.


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## edX (Dec 1, 2003)

there is an announcement in every forum. this is the only thread open for replies though. as for whether or not a new member bothers to read these or even the site rules before posting, is up to them. ignorance is not a defense. even in the windows world there are sites that do not allow such activity. so being a switcher and being 'unaware' is not an excuse.


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## Randman (Dec 1, 2003)

edX said:
			
		

> there is an announcement in every forum.


 My bad then. I almost always only use "see new replies", so I didn't realize there were posts in every forum.


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## toast (Dec 1, 2003)

If vBulletin lets you do this, I propose you automatically send a PM to new members with all those stickies' instructions in it.

I think Yahoo! Mail does this - you create an account, and automaticall receive a Yahoo! mail telling you you'll get kicked out if you use your address to spam.


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## g/re/p (Dec 2, 2003)

p2p apps are not warez......


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## edX (Dec 2, 2003)

no, but acquiring warez is about all they're used for. hence, we don't allow p2p discussion. like it or not, those are our rules at this site.


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## Arden (Dec 4, 2003)

toast said:
			
		

> If vBulletin lets you do this, I propose you automatically send a PM to new members with all those stickies' instructions in it.
> 
> I think Yahoo! Mail does this - you create an account, and automaticall receive a Yahoo! mail telling you you'll get kicked out if you use your address to spam.


Along these lines, you could enable email confirmation for new members, which requires people to click a link in an email they get after they register... I'm sure you've all seen them before.  Unless you've changed it since I registered, this site doesn't require them; you could use this as a way to tell people some of the rules before they can even post.

Just a thought. ::love::


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## pds (Dec 4, 2003)

I wonder whether those banned are permanently axed (e-mail blocked) or are the just de-registered. Perhaps if they are de-registered with a clear note about what the rules are and an invitation to re-register under the pain of permanent banishment for future violations they may become productive members. If they become involved in the values of the board, they may learn to turn from their dark ways.


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## Giaguara (Dec 4, 2003)

there are different ways of blocking, pds. general ignore, limited time out, .. banning .. thre is no way for two members using (even if one is gone) the same email. and sometims even the ip banning can be considered. (don't worry too much about the technical details).


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## Trillian (Dec 24, 2003)

edX said:
			
		

> so DO NOT post asking for serial numbers, shared software or anything like this. do not ask what the best p2p app is nor where to get a good spam client.



Would that apply to asking where the serial number can be found within the product documents? For example, would someone posting to know where they can find VPC serial code within the stuff taht came with that package get in truble?


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## edX (Dec 24, 2003)

Trillian - no, that would be a perfectly legitimate question. some developers are making it more difficult to track down. with my just delivered Techtool pro, i had to go all the way back to the drive 10 manual they sent me when i ordered the double upgrade last summer to find the serial number.


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## Trillian (Dec 24, 2003)

ah, ok.

*zipps off to the system& software secton*


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## drunkmac (Mar 18, 2004)

The rules are fair to me but the whole P2P thing is overkill. I posted a question a few weeks back asking how to get my Limewire playlist working in iTunes because it no longer sorted songs in the order they were downloaded. My post got banned and that was a legit question I feel.


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## fryke (Mar 18, 2004)

Well, your post got banned because we don't 'support' Limewire etc. I have yet to find a user of Limewire who actually only downloads 'free' music legally and wants to integrate it with iTunes.


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## bobw (Mar 18, 2004)

Overkill or not, these are our rules. No discussion/questions about P2P software.


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## Zammy-Sam (Mar 18, 2004)

Bob, you are banned!  
I think we have to distinguish between _those_ filesharing tools and p2p. There are a lot of messengers connecting peer-to-peer, right? And arent there network solutions for companies that are based on p2p too? I understood our rules as forbidding any illegal activities. And that's why I think Fryke is right when he says we don't support certain p2p-tools. But I wouldn't generalise it to any p2p software.. 
Out of curiousity: what happened to octane?


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## bobw (Mar 18, 2004)

Zammy

You're wasting your time on this subject. P2P programs, discussions about them, where to get them, are banned on this site.

Octane who


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## brianleahy (Mar 18, 2004)

I can't personally recall a time when I've needed or wanted to discuss P2P software here, but it always saddens me to see a "zero tolerance" policy applied.  They can lead to bizarre situations, like the elementary school which suspended a boy for biting a chicken nugget into a crude gun shape and saying "bang".

Of course, I assume the motivation here is similar to the schools': reducing liability.  A site that is used for illegal activities can be held liable, and naturally we don't want that.

Even so, I would hope a certain level of intelligence will factor in; I can see banning someone fishing for illegal software, but surely, a post that (for instance) simply discussed the impact of P2P on the software industry would be acceptable.


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## uoba (Mar 18, 2004)

How would such a discussion hold with The Mods? Would this be an acceptable subject for a debate? (Not that I want to run off and start one.) I presume a 'close eye' would be kept upon the threads?


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## bobw (Mar 18, 2004)

Anyone starting a discussion of P2P Apps/warez, takes the chance of being Banned. Not open for discussion. No need for a 'close eye', the thread would be wasted.

This subject isn't open for discussion here. Everyone that has been coming to this forum for any length of time, knows this.


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## Randman (Mar 18, 2004)

There have been related threads. The recent one on Mac gaming dealt with piracy. I think someone discussed a forbidden topic and the post was edited but not deleted. I would think (hope) if someone had a serious, legal p2p-related question, one of supermods or admins would be contacted via e-mail first, in order to discuss such merits of a topic.


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## brianleahy (Mar 18, 2004)

It's sounding to me like some power-that-be must have put the fear-o-god into our moderators here recently.  The rationale for the policy is clear enough - keep away from anything that even smells vaguely illegal - but I have to say I'm very curious about why NOW.  What has recently happened to precipitate this shift?

I suppose we will just have to see how this goes.  I have no wish to stir up the muck here, but there are bound to be problems.  For instance: it's illegal to plan to blow up a bridge, but it's NOT illegal to talk about the CNN coverage about people who did blow up a bridge.  Clearly, around here it's strictly verboten to offer or request "how to" advice on P2P sharing - but would it be verboten to talk about someone who got busted for P2P sharing?  Or about a lawsuit raised over P2P sharing?  So far, sounds like it would be.

Meanwhile, I'm being very careful how I eat my nuggets.


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## Zammy-Sam (Mar 18, 2004)

As I said to uoba:
we're getting some nazi conditions here. "The person _typing down_ P2P will be executed". 
If P2P software was illegal, then noone could get his hands on those that easily. You can get them anywhere! So, why should it be forbidden to download such tools and use them? This is not the bad and illegal part of it. The illegal part is sharing software or files that are protected by a licence. Maybe 99% of the users of such tools take this illegal way, but still this doesn't allow us to ban a person asking for it. It's like we would ban ppl asking how they can send one email to multiple contacts. That could be spam as well. But here we act more liberal. However, I don't support warez and any other illegal activity, but what ppl do with their software should not be our business. One might use his photoshop to manipulate some certifications. Should we forbid talking about photoshop and any other painting app? 
If one directly asks for warez, he/she should definitely be banned. But a guess is not enough! 
As Bob said: I might have wasted my time on this post, but I think we should distinguish between illegal downloads and p2p. If it was the same, things would be much different in these days. And the harder we act on such things, the more we show we can't deal with it and simply fear it.


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## dlloyd (Mar 18, 2004)

My opinion is much like briansleahy's.
I think if we allow talk on the P2P applications themselves, then things will quickly degenerate around here. Currently this is an excellent forum, not the least because everything is kept under control, and there AREN'T any discussions on things like warez. So while I don't think anyone should be allowed to ask about P2P apps/wares directly, I also don't think 'P2P' should be treated like a swear word. Therefore I think threads _about_ P2P applications should be allowed, but not on their uses/using them.


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## fryke (Mar 20, 2004)

The problem is basically this. There were quite decent threads in the past about piracy and/or certain applications and their (good) uses. However: ANY such thread is somehow bound to become worse very, very soon.

Someone will - out of sheer happiness - say something like: "I like Application A better than Application B because it finds more moviez." And from there, the mods have to edit posts on an hourly basis, removing app names, network names, server IPs and then _quotes_ of those statements that contain the same information - just to keep the thread on the original subject which might be just okay with the rules (and the feelings of the mods about whether the thread is still okay or not)... It turns out it's just a massive waste of time that could be well used elsewhere.

The consequence of all of this was this zero-tolerance attitude. The advice here is: If you ARE a user of Application A (even if you don't do ANYthing illegal with it) that has a problem with the app, ask the maker or use their support mailing list or their support forum. The chance of finding a good answer there is usually higher, anyway. (A matter of focus, I guess.)

Philosophical questions of whether it's "bl**dy _right_" to do illegal things because of [fill in your personal favourite ideology] only leads to flamewars that don't go anywhere. We've had these discussions in the past, and while they're certainly fun for some, they're not for many others and usually just don't bring out anything positive.

So, if your question is clearly against the law (where can I download pay-software, pay-movies, pay-music etc. for free), it doesn't belong on macosx.com.

If your question is about the use of or a problem with an application that is used for such things, it doesn't belong on macosx.com, you might ask the maker or other users of the application in an application-specific forum or mailing list.

If your question is more common in nature, say, something like "Would piracy decrease if Adobe sold their apps for 99 cents instead of 999 dollars..." it _could_ fit the Opinions or Café forum, but I'd advise you to think about it yourself, come to a conclusion and let the subject rest or use Slashdot's flamewars.


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## brianleahy (Mar 20, 2004)

I figured it had to be something like that.  It's a shame that the board could actually be liable for such discussions.  It seems to me not unlike holding the phone company liable for gangsters' phone calls.  Ah well.


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## JetwingX (Mar 21, 2004)

all that really needs to be said about P2P is that there are a few out there for mac. some are better then others. Some cost money some don't. and they can be useful for finding rare and uncommon things. really isn't anymore to say other than where to find them


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## ora (Mar 21, 2004)

Basically i think the zero tolerance approach is fine. It wouldn't be fine if this were the only place people could talk about mac related stuff, or if users lost out on something more than the good company of the mods and users here by not being able to discuss P2P or by being banned. 

The beauty of the internet is its breadth. People can talk about different things in different places (and even take on different personas see Sherry Turkle here and here for academic discussion of this). If i want to talk about the merits of ethernet vs usb ADSl modems, i would ask a question here (and would likely get a speedy and helpful answer). If i wanted to talk about whether Kirk really was in love with that alien girl i, episode whatever of Star Trek, the net provides endless places i could do so. There is hardly any lack of places to talk about legally dubious P2P services, and I'm sure for those interested, google will (as ever) provide.

Like others said, slashdot for flamewars, bash.org for silliness, here for legal mac stuff.


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## dlloyd (Mar 21, 2004)

Hear Hear!


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## g/re/p (Apr 27, 2004)

brianleahy said:
			
		

> I figured it had to be something like that.  It's a shame that the board could actually be liable for such discussions.  It seems to me not unlike holding the phone company liable for gangsters' phone calls.  Ah well.



I would be very curious to learn just exactly how the "board" could be held liable for any discussion on any topic that was not specifically against the law - has pres. bush actually managed to remove freedom of speech from the constitution? 

(Did he and asscleft manage to sneak it
past the whole world when no one was looking?)


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## scruffy (Apr 27, 2004)

Didn't the DMCA pretty much do that?


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## Trip (Apr 30, 2004)

I agree.


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## Natobasso (Sep 17, 2004)

Well, when you sign up to use this message board, you agree to abide by the rules set out by the founders of the site (the directors/owners). It's not a constitutional rights thing as much as it is a private entity.

People are free to use this site as long as they follow the rules which I think aren't hardly draconian in the least.

People think freedom means "doing whatever you want". It's not. Freedom + Responsibility = Democracy.


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## fryke (Sep 17, 2004)

Yes, but then that's _democracy_ and not _freedom_. Which is quite definitely not the same thing. ;-)

Freedom, in fact, DOES mean you can do whatever you want. Democracy doesn't. However, this has not much to do with this _board_, which is, as you rightfully stated, a private entity, and not a democracy or ANY form of political entity.

So basically: You're right, but you should've stopped after the second paragraph. ;-)


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## pds (Sep 18, 2004)

This could be the topic of a whole new discussion...

Are freedom and responsibility two different sets of values that have to be combined for a desired result (democracy)? 

Or is freedom a subset of responsibility, a necessary concession that makes responsibilty (or the ability to respond) possible? That would mean that action (one part of freedom, the other being free will) that is not responsible is no longer freedom.

So you are not free in order to do what you want, you are free to respond in a beneficial way to the circumstances around you (beneficial to the self and to the whole). To act in a destructive way is to become a criminal, liable to sanction.

The founder of community sets the standard - the rules that members are able to respond to. Action outside those rules will get you banned. Rightly so.


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## fryke (Sep 22, 2004)

Yes, perfectly so, even. Just that's not freedom, that's freedom under rules, which _is_ kind of a paradoxon. There's been tons of books about man's freedom and I'm sure that everyone's got more or less of an idea of what freedom means and is. But I _did_ stray a bit there, and your last paragraph is certainly quite on-topic.


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## Natobasso (Sep 22, 2004)

I believe freedom without responsibility equals anarchy/chaos. Freedom by itself is easy to define and difficult to do because if followed consistently it breeds disorganization. There's a balance between laws/rules and freedom and the goal is to end up with people not getting hurt. 

So I think if you enjoy the benefits of this board, you must also follow its rules. Otherwise it won't work.


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## ScottW (Sep 22, 2004)

Merriam-Webster on Freedom...

FREEDOM has a broad range of application from total absence of restraint to merely a sense of not being unduly hampered or frustrated <freedom of the press>.

To me, freedom is found in boundries. When your a child, you are free to play where you want, as long as you stay in the yard or stay in boundries set by parents. You step outside your boundries, you break the law your parents set.

The same goes for this board. You have freedom to participate as long as it follows the rule of the board. Your right to swing your arm ends the moment it hits someone else, at least in the United States... and the same theory applies on this forum. Even if we did have hard core rules that limited your ability to speak as you might think as "freely" that is perfectly acceptable. Just as you'd have no right to complain by not being able to order a BigMac at Burger King, complaining about violating board rules here, really you have no leg to stand on.


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## ScottW (Sep 22, 2004)

One last note: Which is why I always tell those who are not happy with the way things are on this board... go somewhere else. Go to McDonalds where you can buy a BigMac. A complaint without validity is just noise.  

I think we have a great site here and amazingly enough, many people find it a breath of fresh air to find out that our boundries are enforced.


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## Zammy-Sam (Sep 23, 2004)

I somehow don't like this "go somewhere else" line which I saw few times by now posted by different ppl. It doesn't fit to this forum. We welcome every new member and help out everyone. We believe our rules ensure this kind of harmonie we have here and complaints shouldn't be bashed with the line: go somewhere else. As long they are not valid, it should be quite easy to prove it. And such discussions are no noise! I think ppl that really care for this forum and discuss such things with the site founder and the mods are the backbone of this forum. 
And once those complaints are valid we should be more flexible. 
My point is that "go somewhere else" is rather an admission that the complaint might be vaild but we simply can't find any way to disprove it and stay stubborn.
I am not refering this post to any previous ones in this thread. Have actually no clue what ppl are discussing here but just wanted to comment the line "go somewhere else".


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## Natobasso (Sep 23, 2004)

Zammy

Definitely don't take offense to the "go somewhere else" you are seeing here. It has to do with people who come to the board for the sole purpose of breaking the rules of the board itself. Ie. people asking about warez or hacks or for serial numbersthings that are expressly forbidden here.

I think we can all agree this site is great mainly because there's always someone around to help whomever has a question in the quickest way possible.I have learned a lot from being here, personally.


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## stizz (Sep 25, 2004)

I'm not particularly liking the "go somewhere else" mantra either. But as Scott so graciously indicated, he could give a rats ass if members are unhappy and have complaints. Its just hot air to him; wasted energy. This is why I don't contribute to this site much anymore. Sure I'll come here when I have a tech problem, and I usually get an answer from somebody; but that is the extent of my interaction here.

I registered here the day I aquired the Public Beta. It was a young idealistic board back then, but now it's cold and sterile. 
Almost as many times as this place has gotten a facelift have I needed to defend my account from being banned for asinine reasons. The owner of this site and some of his mods have god complexes. Just my 2¢, I'm not a drama queen, and not laying down ultimatums demanding change or suffer my desertion. Just know that to me this board has all the warmth and charm of a train station in the late 1930's Italy. Your trains are running on time Scott.

For what it's worth, Fryke has been the only Mod here to ever exude coolness.


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## ScottW (Sep 25, 2004)

stizz, board rules. Violate again, you won't need a defense. For everyone else, if you enjoy pointless posts... well, tuff. 

Types of Posters We'd Like To Discourage 

Drama Queen: Like all message boards, there is always a constant turnover in the number of people that frequent the macosx.com board. Most people, after having decided they no longer wish to visit the board, make no announcement about their departure. Some individuals have a penchant for making long boisterous departures from the message board that is clearly worthy of an Emmy award - "Goodbye cruel message board" is the classic remark. Because most of them seek to harm the morale of the board, Drama Queens are regarded as a nuisance. What also makes them an even greater pain is their tendency to repeatedly coming back for a series encore performances. "I came back to see if you people changed your ways, but I see things are the same as always - so once again, farewell cruel message board."


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## stizz (Sep 26, 2004)

You go ahead and dismiss me as a drama queen Scott. I could care less.


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## mi5moav (Sep 26, 2004)

*QUOTE* 

  Heres to the crazy ones.



   The misfits.

     The rebels.

       The troublemakers. 

         The round pegs in the square holes. 

 The ones who see things differently.


 Theyre not fond of rules.

      And they have no respect for the status quo.


 You can praise them, disagree with them, quote them, 

      disbelieve them, glorify or vilify them.

 About the only thing you cant do is ignore them. 

       Because they change things.


 They invent.    They imagine.    They heal. 

   They explore.    They create.    They inspire.

     They push the human race forward.



 Maybe they have to be crazy. 

 How else can you stare at an empty canvas and see a work of art?
 Or sit in silence and hear a song thats never been written?
 Or gaze at a red planet and see a laboratory on wheels? 


 While some see them as the crazy ones,
    we see genius.

 Because the people who are crazy enough to think
 they can change the world, are the ones who do.

 I guess we should rename this forum winosxp

 Hatred is the only thing I wish that could be banned


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## ScottW (Sep 26, 2004)

mi5moav, thanks for calling me crazy.  That's genius.


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## stizz (Oct 12, 2004)

In the context of the last few posts in this thread, I doubt mi5moav was talking about you Scott, since you seem to be the complete opposite of the criteria he listed for being crazy,...I could be wrong, but most likely am not.


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## Convert (Oct 13, 2004)

edX said:
			
		

> people who come here to request warez help will be banned immediately with no warnings. in the past warnings have been issued to give some people the benefit of the doubt. no more.
> 
> 
> so DO NOT post asking for serial numbers, shared software or anything like this. do not ask what the best p2p app is nor where to get a good spam client.



Shouldn't this be posted somewhere more noticeable? Let's face it, no new member's gonna scroll to the bottom of the index just to read this. 
Maybe a link to this thread on the index would be good?

Just an idea.


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## Tetano (Oct 22, 2004)

I agree, I think that is an important thread, not just for the reason that is not likely to be banned, but also for the discussion of p2p apps and warez... in my opinion,it's a good choice to keep things that -in some countries- can be punished with the jail out of this forum... , it's stupid to risk the closure of this site, and other legal problems.


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## stizz (Oct 23, 2004)

Tetano..the advice you just gave on how to obtain a serial, even as innoculous as suggesting [content uncerimoniously deleted by powers that be] is grounds for bannation here under scotts iron fisted zero tolerance rules. 
I agree that open discussions on warez and other such topics probably do not belong here but plenty of other good discussions about p2p software (which has legitamate uses) and other grey area subject matter (like how to protrect yourself from apps that like to phone home without your consent) will get you banned. Even being helpful and suggesting a more specific place to look is a nono. 
How I still have an account here I do not know, because I don't tolerate such BS and have most cartainly worn out my welcome. 
The site owner and most of his moderators are anything but moderate; they are so ultra conservative I'm suprised they use macs at all. I'm sure one day I'll make another intelligent post about a topic that scares Scott, and I'll end up missing; you'll see.


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## fryke (Oct 24, 2004)

Ah, nostalgy... The days of the Public Beta. Quite certainly this forum was different back then. (You can go back in time using the search function. I sometimes search for my own oldest threads. Quite funny sometimes...) However: Not only has Mac OS X changed in the past four years, so has the range of customers as well as macosx.com/forums. Back then, we were few and wild. I mean: Who in their right mind would have tried to actually get _work_ done on Mac OS X Public Beta? (I sure did...) 

Times have changed, and so has the board. We usually get to this spirit again in the three to four months before a new version of OS X is released. I always look forward to those. And these times are ahead again.

The pioneer spirit about Mac OS X is just not 'useful' any longer. It's a commerically available software now. It's the main operating system of every Mac sold by Apple today. The problems and wishes of users are different. Thus: I understand the changes. And I've certainly changed with this process over time, too.


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## Gambit (Oct 24, 2004)

I'm one that has actually scrolled down and read all the posts here 

I could not agree more with both Bobs and frykes views on the subject. 
To me it is pretty simple and clear from the start. 
Either you respect the rules of a board (that is moderated--->for the sake of all) or you do not. 
This is not a new subject on msg. boards. Neither are the comments that follow (even mine).

There are boards that are totally "open" to anyone and everything and then we have the others that are moderated. 
This is both democracy AND freedom. We are free to oblige, free to not like it and choose a less moderated msg board OR...make ones own (with the rules one likes).

Since the people who started this msg board are the ones who make the rules it is (to me) both disrespectful AND a waste of space to start questioning the basic rules.

I do not understand the wish of some who do this. Is it a need to rebel? A need to be seen? A need to say no because one can?

A bit childish, no?

If it had to do with a subject that really IS important to this forum and many of its members...it would make more sence that anyone objects.

To me this subject is a very logical and simple. 

It is easy to write a post to complain about small issues just for the sake of it but more difficoult to take a step back and see the whole picture AND...be happy about having joined a very (imv) open forum that this is. 

One of you guys wrote about comming here only now and then to get help (which is fine and ok) but otherwise couldn't give a *** about this forum.

How do you think that looks, taking a step back? 
To me: someone rather egotistical who only uses other peoples labour (this forum), when that is over; give back some critisism about its basic rules.

It doesn't make any sence!

I do not come here often enough to say that I am a regular but when I have, I have had the pleasure of being helped and sometimes given help to others.
I've never feelt the urge to critizise the forums rules. If there are rules, I try to stick by them. 
I havn't lost anything by giving such a small contribution in return for the better of the forum.

Sometimes I think users/members think more about what they can get and forget what they can give in return.
Is that something to be proud of? Is this personality trait something that we all gain from?

Someone above talked about "people going their own way" etc, like that in itself is something great. Sure, that's fine....but i see nothing here that reminds me anything of a "genious" *just* because they complain over something so simple. 
Not without it having some substence to it. 

In my view some people have some growing up to do.
I'm not trying to offend anyone, I just wish that one could take a step back first and see the whole picture before starting to post complaints.

/G


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## Canada-Man (Oct 25, 2004)

P2Ps are perfectly legal, and downloading mp3s from them is not illegal in Canada Supreme Court said. So personally, I may be asking for a P2P to do stuff that is NOT illegal.

So unless someone specifically asks "What P2P is the best to find mac softwares" he shoudn't be banned.


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## ScottW (Oct 25, 2004)

Well, rules where setup not necessarily because of the "legality" as it is as much as topics we wish to not have discussed here. Whether or not Canada has made it illegal or not is really not the issue here. Some pornography is legal and the legality of porn is different from country-to-country. However, just because porn is legal, doesn't mean it is to be posted or shared/distributed via this forum. The same goes for P2P. I agree, P2P itself is not illegal, it is what is done with it. The old saying goes, "Guns don't kill people, People kill people".

Legal or not, we avoid P2P conversation like the plague. For those of you in Colorado Springs, CO.... yes, we do mean... AVOID THE PLAGUE!


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## Natobasso (Oct 25, 2004)

macosx.com, I assume, has servers in the United States which makes it governable by US Laws, not Canadian laws. One of which is that file-sharing of copywritten material is prohibited. Any group or entity that aids and abets that purpose is also guilty. It's called "aiding and abetting".

If you don't like the rules, it's your right to debate them but not to violate them. Don't use this message board if you can't follow the rules. Why is this so difficult to understand?


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## Canada-Man (Oct 25, 2004)

I was just adding a point to that P2P thing. If the forum administrators don't want to hear about it here it's their forum so we have to comply. What I was wondering is whether that was against P2P or against illegal downloading.


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## bobw (Oct 25, 2004)

Both


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## cigar (Oct 25, 2004)

Hmmm interesting discussion wich is as old as the way to Rome. Ahm.. nothing really new under the sun. Those who favor the new policy don't show the legal base it is based on cause it seems more like the oldfashioned "trick to hear yourself talk: "This is my house and i can do whatever i like"

Well think again: Wrong.
I am not going to summon up all legal rules cause that it's kid'stuff but i will try to put it in plain english.

1st:

This forum is not "as in your house"
Your house is a piece of property inside a country wich you rent or own.Neverthless you still can't do everything inside your own house.The law is clearly on that. Using those "rules"is just to cover youself in for troubles.Old trick,doesn't always work that way.
Let's put it more clearly: If you use those socalled social (by law)rules of real-life as a way to make your point, fine... BUT then you are also abliged to honor the rights! of those same people.In other words IF your socalled "Houserules" neglect the civil right someone has, your set rules are invalid.

Let's have an example:

I am invited in your house. we differ on politic's and you don't like to hear the name of a certain politician who isn't a racist or whatever but just your average politician and because of that you wanna throw me out of your house, you are breaking the law cause you neglected my rights as a citizen to use my freedom of expression cause as it says clearly that "no one can be stripped of his rights to express himself in the open or within certain borders"Despite that you don't like it it still gives you NOT the right to trown me out.
It is different if i start to threaten you or hurt anyone in your family thusfar bringing danger to your house and property.You as a host has a certain  dutycare for his guest.Don't believe it, check the facts on human rights and the convictions regarding this matter.

So... If I wanna talk about warez or whatever i am allowed to speak about it.NO law prohibits that cause talking about it is not wrong, *having it, is wrong! *BIG diference! Despite that someone is waving with "But my rules state"" those rules differ with the real set rules set by law(one uses so dearly to set houserules regarding warez etc) wich allowes everyone to speak his mind freely, your socalled "houserules"are invalid,plain and simple!Thus no one has to follow them up. And if you still do whatever you like. Good.. you are free to be held accountable for your actions irl.

One cannot use on the other hand the wellknown law to set the rules but on the other hand don't wanna hear about the rights people have.This is not a dictatorship or even the censorburo but the worldwide web, where there are certain rules set, but also alot of freedom.Anyone..i repeat anyone who wanna temper that freedom of expression(except those who misuse it to threaten etc folks or whatever) should be held accountable for their action.

So to conclude it all:

Lighten up and don't misuse the freedom of the worldwide web to become a part of the censorburo cause the talk about:"It is part of preserving the honesty or purity of the web" is alot of BS!

So i have spoken...


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## ScottW (Oct 25, 2004)

Good, I will exercise my freedom... to ban you.


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## ScottW (Oct 25, 2004)

> Speech in private workplaces may, of course, be restricted by employers; the First Amendment by its terms applies only to the government. But this is true for all speech on private property. Speech in private universities may be restricted by the university. Private commercial landlords may refuse to rent to the Communists or the Nazis. Speech in churches may be restricted by the church; speech in Slate may be restricted by Michael Kinsley. But none of this empowers the government to suppress what people say in these places.



Cigar, educate yourself on American laws before assuming you know what they are. Anyone else feel like allowing me to test out my freedoms on your account?

People bitch and moan all day... I get tired of it.


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## Zammy-Sam (Oct 26, 2004)

ScottW said:
			
		

> Anyone else feel like allowing me to test out my freedoms on your account?


Excuse me?? That was a joke, right?


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## fryke (Oct 26, 2004)

Nah, I guess ScottW just wanted to make very clear that this new policy is in place for quite a while now and that he's a bit tired of discussing it over and over again.


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## Zammy-Sam (Oct 26, 2004)

he doesn't have to defend it alone. It's not HIS policy but the forums. And we have a bunch of moderators.. 
This thread is for such discussions. It's free for everyone to post his complaints about this site or the rules in THIS thread as much as it is free for everyone that is tired of it to ignore it. Unless we close this thread, no one has the right to silence anyone here with threats. Not even the site founder.
This forum is so successful because there are a bunch of experts here and other ppl with an ear for any problem, donating ppl and good moderators with sensible rules. There is no freedom of a single person.
Just for everyone who got shocked by that comment. 
If you want this, I will dedicate myself to deal with the "bitching and moaning" ppl and *logically* defend our rules and policy.


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## fryke (Oct 26, 2004)

I think you don't have to dedicate yourself to that Sisiphus-work. It's enough if we have quite a few members and moderators who understand the policy and explain it where necessary. I'm glad you're willing to help, but afaik this is the only place where it's ever discussed. If someone asks about it in another forum, it depends on how he or she is asking. Either their thread is merged with this one (dunno if that has happened before) or their thread is removed and they're banned (if they're actually skipping the board rules, go ahead and ask for warez etc.).


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## Natobasso (Oct 26, 2004)

It's amazing to me that people can't accept the rules that they agreed to when they signed up to this board in the first placehrumpf.


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## Zammy-Sam (Oct 27, 2004)

Natobasso said:
			
		

> It's amazing to me that people can't accept the rules that they agreed to when they signed up to this board in the first placehrumpf.


did you read the rules before you signed in here? I actually came here with a single problem and wanted to find some help. Searched the posts and when I found one and I wanted to add my problem, I realized I needed to sign in and so I did. Didn't read any rules. Just by time I learned them.
I don't find it bad that ppl discuss about the rules and other board policies. It shows they don't just come here to find solutions for their problems, but kinda care for the whole system. As far I can overlook the ppl posting in this thread, they are mostly old members to whom macosx.com got very important or some new members that do not just post in the software or hardware issues forums, but also in the cafe forum or other "non-issues" forums. I find such ppl "more important" for the forum than those rather "egoistical" members that only care for their own problems..
Silencing such ppl won't help macosx.com..


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## diablojota (Oct 27, 2004)

Amen Zammy.


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## Natobasso (Oct 27, 2004)

Zammy, so what's your point? I didn't quite understand your post.


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## Natobasso (Oct 27, 2004)

I think I am just responding to those people who complain about not being able to talk about sharing software, P2P, or anything else that on this board is EXPRESSLY forbidden.

I find it very hard to understand why people go on a rant when if they just read the rules of the board they would probably have their questions answered. You can debate what's fair till the cows come home, but the fact is that when you sign up to this board, you agree to play by its rules.

There's no need to silence anyone, but there is a need for some to do a little research before they start trying to bend the rules or explain them away. They are in place for a reason.


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## Zammy-Sam (Oct 27, 2004)

Natobasso said:
			
		

> Zammy, so what's your point? I didn't quite understand your post.


When you joined the forum, did you first go to the board rules and read it all? I didn't and I think many ppl did like me: they had a problem, searched in google, found a post on macosx.com, read the post and wanted to ask the ppl how the problem can be solved in their case, try to post something but a message poped up asking for login, then quickly signed in and finally post the question and hope you will get an answer soon.
Of course, there is something somewhere telling what I should do and not do, but does this interest you at that moment? Aren't most of us just thinking: ok, just this question and I won't have anything to do with the ppl here anymore? So, the mods have to deal with a lot of new members that post things they are not allowed to simply because they didn't read them.
It's not right, but that's the way it is.
Your line about being amazed how ppl could "accept" the board rules and start complaining about them afterwards is because they didn't read them before. Hope this was more understandable for you. 
But still there are ppl knowing about the board rules and still discussing them. And as I said in my previous post: those ppl are not trying to complain, but make macosx.com (as their "home") more - in their opinion - fair. And just referring to the board rules as a tenet is not right. Imagine every political party would be silenced when they wanted to change anything about the law... If someone has a great idea, why not change it? But by now, no one had a better idea since things simply work fine. I know that p2p tools are not illegal, but avoiding any discussions of them will make it easier for the mods to not deal with tough borderline cases. And this proved to be a great concept. Our forum is probably the best mac forum and probably also because of the rules.
I think this will satisfy everyone that has a question about avoiding any p2p discussion.


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## fryke (Oct 28, 2004)

"Imagine every political party would be silenced when they wanted to change anything about the law..." That would again assume that macosx.com is a 'democracy'. But the important thing to keep in mind here is that basically any comparison to any countries and forms of states out there are inherently flawed, because this is NOT a country, it's a website. And it's a forum. With an administrator and moderators. And we'd better just use _that_ picture to talk. It's a forum with an admin, moderators and users. And yes, the users do not decide the rules of the forum - and it's the admin and mods who are there for keeping the rules intact...

(You see, it's a bit like people always talking about computers comparing them to car-makers. While that's fun and all, some fundamental things about the making of cars just doesn't apply to computers, which renders the talk futile in most cases...)


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## fryke (Oct 28, 2004)

Users, of course, can still _talk_ about things they'd like to see changed. That, of course, depends on the seriousness of some rules. You see: We, for example, don't like religous or political talk in System & Software. However you _can_ do that in the Café. We also don't like talk about the warez-rules in News, Rumours and General. We _do_ however talk about it here. I think macosx.com offers a place for (almost) everyone. And the other things are set by the rules...


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## bobw (Oct 28, 2004)

Zammy
Anyone signing up to join something should read the rules. No excuse for not doing so.

If you were buying a house, would you go through with the deal before reading the paper work?

Same with a car.

Like the old saying, Ignorance is no excuse.

I know probably most people don't read the Board Rules when they join, only after they've seen a discussion like this. The majority of folks are fine with our rules. The rules are in place to keep this a nice, friendly and legal forum for everyone to enjoy.

Those that don't want to conform to Board Rules are free to go to other forums for what they need.

P2P discussions, warez, etc, are not permitted here. It usually leads to asking about illegal things. So, we stop it before it can start.

We'd like everyone to enjoy the forums, come here for help, help others, inform people of things. Just adhere to the board Rules which really aren't too stringent.


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## Zammy-Sam (Oct 28, 2004)

My point was actually to give ppl that care about the forum a chance to take part to it. I am not talking about giving them the right to change the rules. And I am not talking about any democraticall system in this forum. But showing them that we are opened to any suggestion is a very important thing which we actually do show with this thread. I collected a lot of experiences with my sport club. I think you can find a lot of similarities to this forum. I am one of the coaches like the mods in here and the owner could be seen as the site founder. Of course, no member has the right to change any rules or the fee for memberships eventough ppl complain a lot about it. Yes, it's actually simple: if you are not ok with it, you are free to look for another place, as Bob said. But showing the ppl, that we do care what they think about our system is very important and makes the ppl feel much more comfortable. The members in my sport club never changed any rules and they know they may not. But they know they can complain about things and there is an ear for these things. That's all that matters. 
The reason for all my recent posts in this thread were actually because I got the impression members shouldn't have the right to discuss about the rules. And that's why I offered my "service" to give the unsatisfied ppl a listening ear and some feedback.. This will - how I think - make the atmosphere a lot more friendly.


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## stizz (Oct 30, 2004)

Zammy - I agree with you on one point. I'm guessing that over 75% of new users do not read the board rules before signing up. I never read the board rules myself, but I live by my own rules, and they generally are in line with what is right, legal, and fair. 
It should also be mentioned that the board rules, like the color schemes of the board itself, have changed since I first made my account. I did not agree to the terms of servive as they have been changed.

Scott - I don't give a DAMN if you are sick and tired of this discussion, it is obvious that there are numerous others for whom this issue is a hot topic and it's not going to go away. So until you become enlightened like the rest of us, you'd better get used to it. I myself personally don't like bullies with "my house my rules" attitudes, and I absolutely loath censorship anywhere in any form and despise with a passion those that practice it; that is why I make a continued effort to fight for the cause here.This place really used to kickass, now it kinda sucks. Blah blah blah, I'm a drama queen yada yada yada.
This is not a kingdom Scott, and you are not the King. You are more like the owner of a big bar and you have a very large group of regulars. We don't come here because of you Scott, you are inconsequential at this point. But for some reason you have a big swollen head. You enjoy the power you percieve to have here. But as the aforementioned bar owner, while you have the right to set up certain expected house rules, you cannot seriously expect your patrons to let you control what they talk about. You are ruining what was once the best OS X forum on the net with your blatant censorship and fascist mentality.

Here is a perfect example of your abuse of powers:

You deleted the follwing text from one of my earlier posts:
" use google and search for x"  
x was implying an unknown variable. Basically, n could be anything. I said simply "use google and search for the thing that you want to search for. This could be distilled as simply "use google". I was recomending to someone that they use google,..one of the best known and most widely used search engines on the net today, and you had that censored. Why? I'd love to hear a logical reason from you with more depth than a simple "my house, my rules, don't like it, leave" kneejerk response.

And the Banning of people just because you can? That really shows us all a lot about the quality of your character.

/HELP SAVE AMERICA! VOTE KERRY ON TUESDAY!


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## stizz (Oct 30, 2004)

Scott says we cant talk about p2p software because although it may have legit uses, it may also be used illegally, and he would rather avoid any grey area and fine line discussions on the topic. Better safe than sorry says he. By that logic, the following would also apply. 



Macs have many legit uses, but they can also be used to break the law. To avoid any discussions about macs being used in these nefarious ways, we will have a zero tolerance policy regarding macs. Anyone talking about macs on macosx.com will be banned immediately, no questions, no second chances.

also, 

the internet may have many legit uses, but since it also may be used for illegal and immoral activites, and since we wish to avoid any possible discussions about these nefarious activites, any discussions about the internet is immeadiate cause for bannation, no questions, no second chances.


see how ridiculous it is to stand there and state that we wont allow p2p discussion because it may lead to grey area discussions?


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## ScottW (Oct 30, 2004)

stizz said:
			
		

> You deleted the follwing text from one of my earlier posts:
> " use google and search for x" x was implying an unknown variable. Basically, n could be anything. I said simply "use google and search for the thing that you want to search for. This could be distilled as simply "use google".



Everyone ALWAYS assumes. I have NO CLUE what you are talking about... so if you want to point me to the post, that would be fine. What everyone fails to understand is board is made up of a team of great moderators, each empowered to take action as they see fit.

Yes, there are boundries, but there is great freedom inside boundries.

You can blast off at the mouth all you want... and rant and rave. But, at some point, you will cross a boundry, maybe you already have. It is at those moments in time that a moderator or even myself see something and take action as they see fit.

For all those who complain, go somewhere else. For 99.9% of our users, this is all fine... we have no issues with. It is the .1% that we have the rules for, it is the .1% that we take necessary action with.

If you want to be 1/10th of 1% of our users... then go ahead... be my guest. But realize the consequences.


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## ScottW (Oct 30, 2004)

stizz said:
			
		

> Scott says we cant talk about p2p software because although it may have legit uses, it may also be used illegally, and he would rather avoid any grey area and fine line discussions on the topic. Better safe than sorry says he. By that logic, the following would also apply.



BTW - Did you take a gander on WHO started this thread? Yes, was it ME? Your personal attacks, which are totally unfounded are weighing down the "ban" button... any more weight and you will find it activated.

This thread was started on NOVEMBER 30, 2003, 11 MONTHS AGO. When did I first POST to this thread? September 22, 2004. 

Unlike Edx, I have a even LOWER tolerance level for this type of bad-mouthing... especially when it has no basis in fact.

If I were you, I'd go ahead and count those chickens you have left and use one and exit this thread stage right. Cause your performance is really bad here except for a select few, most people in the audience don't want to hear it.


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## ScottW (Oct 30, 2004)

HISTORY:

Having a forum it is NOT uncommon for people to post "What is the Serial Number for XYZ Software". Rarely do you see these type of threads on this forum because the moderators quickly move such threads to something we call "Wasteland".

Edx and the moderators had discussion among the moderator team about what to do with these type of violators. Obviously, it wasn't a rare offense, something triggered the discussion and the subsequent action was taken. In late November 2003, Edx wrote "people who come here to request warez help will be banned immediately with no warnings. in the past warnings have been issued to give some people the benefit of the doubt. no more. so DO NOT post asking for serial numbers, shared software or anything like this. do not ask what the best p2p app is nor where to get a good spam client."

In case anyone reading this is not aware, Edx became involved in other activities and his activity on this forum declined to an extent that he decided to step away from being an admin and team lead. It was at this time that I stepped back into that position and am where I am today.

Because this was a previous policy and no one has contacted me privately to discuss whether or not this policy should still be in place... including users or moderators, what has been previously issued out will continue to be in force.

To me personally, Ed's original post in this thread is very short and to the point. I really don't understand why it needs 6 pages of replies. Once again, another primary example of my lower tolerance for unnecessary discussion, especially in the public arena.

With those words... and to save stizz and zammy from being banned, I am closing this thread. If anyone would like to continue this discussion, I'd be MORE THAN HAPPY to discuss it offline.

Zammy: Just a little note... I see you where the original person to respond to this thread almost a year ago and here you are today still pounding on a dead thread.


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