# Extent Apple Outsources US Jobs to Foreign Countries?



## Adonsa (Feb 6, 2005)

US companies' extent of priority-of-hire going to foreign nationals over US citizens (both offshore outsourcing, H-1B, and L-1 visas) and these 3 article raises the question of the extent of Apple firing employees in the US and replacing them with foreign nationals.  I realize that there are other websites, such as http://www.programmersguild.org which are working the issues of jobs going overseas, so I confine my questions here to specifics about Apple. 

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/03/07/MNGRT5G2GL1.DTL
"Back in 1997, she left Apple Computer after being shifted from programmer to project manager *as the company moved internal software development to India."*

Other articles seem to reinforce Apple's apparent preference for non-US citizens, such as these:

http://www.macobserver.com/article/2004/02/17.13.shtml

_*Apple Computer has been added to CNN's list of American companies either sending American jobs overseas or choosing to employ cheap foreign labor instead of American workers.*_

According to this report, Apple is involved with Infosys of Bangalore, India:

http://fox.rollins.edu/~tlairson/asiabus/bpoglobal.html
"Progeons parent *Infosys* - which employs more than 9,400 IT professionals and has annual revenues this year of $545 million  has provided IT services to heavy-hitter clients including Boeing, *Apple Computer* and Gap. "

_ We all realize that Apple is multi-national. My message here pertains to preference of hire and diversion of US based job positions, and the need to get all this information out in the open.  The tone of these questions may be rather obtuse, but *I mean no disrespect whatsoever to non-US citizens.*  Instead, these questions would be best answered by anyone on the Apple Board of Directors, any stock-holder, employee, or any member of the computer press. _

Ya know, as a hard-core "fall on my sword" Mac customer since 1984, Im embarrassed, humiliated, and betrayed by the above articles.  Ive always defended Apple when confronted by arrogant IBM/Microsoft users.  But now, (if I defend Apple) what am I defending?  Is it Wipro-Spectramind, Tata, Infosys?  

Oh, I know that Microsoft is worse (more diversion to India), Dell is a lot worse and so is IBM.  I've stopped converting IBM-PC users to the Mac, 'cause I'm not sure what I'd be converting them to (ie. Wipro Spectramind or Satyam or Accenture or Tata or Infosys?)  

Questions, if I may ask...

Has all of Apple's internal software development (as the first article states) gone to India?  If this is true, do we direct our software questions to Wipro Spectramind or Infosys of India from now on?

What  job positions (publish a list) were moved from Cupertino to India?
What percent of Apple's programmers were fired from Cupertino and replaced in India?
What percent of all US based Apple employees were fired and replaced by foreign employees?
What became of Apple's US employees who were fired?

How many of the fired employees were over 40 years of age at the time they were fired?  How many of their foreign replacements were under 40 years of age at the time?

Did Apple require, ask, or coerce  the fired employees to train their foreign replacements before they left the property?
What are Apple's future plans for diversion of work to foreign countries in terms of manpower percentages? 
What is the future for any Apple employees still on the property in Cupertino (or anywhere else in the US)?

Why did Apple cease publishing the names of the programmers in the software "about" boxes?  Could it be that the programmers are foreign nationals, and Steve doesn't want anybody to know?

Thanks for indulging this message.


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## bobw (Feb 6, 2005)

Outsourcing started years ago. The US Government sees fit to let US companies do this, hurting our economy in the process. But, it's definitely nothing new.
Apple is just one of hundreds of companies doing this, if not thousands.
It's just the way business is done today. Where can we get the most for our money.
Unions started causing this problem when they got so powerful and out of hand years ago.


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## smolz (Feb 6, 2005)

I definitely believe that this is a direct result of the unions, they kept asking for too much too often.  At some point meeting those demands cuts too far into the profitability margin and you have either draw the line, which many unions are unwilling to do, or outsource the operation to become profitable again.

Lets face it, if you sell for something for $10, and the first year your labor force cost $2 to make x, then the following year it cost $4 in labor and the following year it costs you $8 in labor costs.  But in the mean time you are still selling for $10 your profit is now $2, a sharp decrease in a short time-span.  So you are faced with either selling the product for more, which will hurt sales, or decreasing your labor costs...


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## markceltic (Feb 6, 2005)

Yes like bobw said all this really started years ago.It's the reality of the tech industry,just how much of our computers parts do you think are actually made in the U.S.A.? So the new G5 chips are supposed to be made at a new IBM facility in New York state, but what else? Don't let things like this bother you,I personally think it's a good thing to help advance economic potential in other countries that obviously need it.


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## Decado (Feb 6, 2005)

Why are you so concerned about where the jobs are situated, Adonsa? We can only hope that they pay good salarys in the countries they outsource to and dont take advantage of them.
last time i checked my history books USA was all fore free trade and were giving communist countries such as china a hard time about it.


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## Decado (Feb 6, 2005)

i get the feeling that this thread is started as some kind of propaganda spam.


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## Adonsa (Feb 9, 2005)

Decado, thank you for your reply, I'll try to answer your concerns.


			
				Decado said:
			
		

> Why are you so concerned about where the jobs are situated, Adonsa?


 The concern is unemployment and/or the threat thereof. The URLs in the top message seem to reinforce that.  Since there are other websites "working the offshoring issues," I'll try hard to confine my query to just wanting to know the extent Apple Computer has replaced Cupertino based jobs.  As a long time dedicated member of the Macintosh community, and since we are all family, I would like to know.  I realize that Apple Computer is secretive.  I realize I am not particularly "entitled" to know.



			
				Decado said:
			
		

> We can only hope that they pay good salarys in the countries they outsource to and dont take advantage of them.


Thanks you.  You are quite right.



			
				Decado said:
			
		

> last time i checked my history books USA was all fore free trade and were giving communist countries such as china a hard time about it.


I read the same thing. 



			
				Decado said:
			
		

> i get the feeling that this thread is started as some kind of propaganda spam.


Not my intent.  But I should have been more careful to clarify that I was only asking about Apple Computer in Cupertino and not the industry.  Working a labor issue in the middle of the Macintosh community was not my intent.  I will gladly do an edit delete on the top message I posted if you think I should.  Please let me know. 

May I squeeze in just a quick question?


			
				BobW said:
			
		

> Unions started causing this problem when they got so powerful and out of hand years ago.


  and 





			
				smolz said:
			
		

> I definitely believe that this is a direct result of the unions, they kept asking for too much too often.


  I'm not trying to ask a "leading" question; were/are Apple employees (in Cupertino) working under a collective bargaining agreement (union representation)?  _ Or maybe other companies influenced Apple's decision (just speculation) _

Again, Decado, please let me know if I should zap my top message.  I don't mind doing so given that the probability is low that an Apple executive or employee will reveal any of the answers in that query. If there were some definitive numbers they probably would have already been posted.  It appears that the value of the message has expired anyway. 

Off Topic.  Decado,  I have been to Goteborg, and to Torslanda (Volvo City) a long time ago.  Awesome, beautiful, what can I say? 
Best wishes,
Adonsa


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## bobw (Feb 9, 2005)

No need to change your original post.


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