# Press3 Reviews



## RacerX (Jun 11, 2002)

In an effort to help improve the *Press3* exams, I am posting these reviews by people who have taken them (originally posted by Jadey on 6/7/2002). I have not taken these exams or been part of the program, but I did choose _Apple_'s training program (which is designed quite differently... but then again, their _Apple_ and have _Apple_'s resources).

Link 1
Link 2

I think it would be helpful to look at other's experiences and hear what they thought of the *Press3* certification program and other programs they may have tried.


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## themacko (Jun 11, 2002)

Testing the waters are we?


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## rinse (Jun 11, 2002)

is this topic what got Jadey in hot water in the first place?


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## googolplex (Jun 11, 2002)

Well racer has nothing to lose since I don't think he really wants to be here anyway.


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## edX (Jun 11, 2002)

ok, i moved it to site news. twyg must have moved it to open letters. but here it is and if you want to discuss it, it apears you can. Better late than never.


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## Wedge (Jun 12, 2002)

Why isn't anyone post on this topic in this topic? I would love to work with Macs for a living and would like to hear about press3 and other option (specially the prices of those option... poor person posting here).

Does anyone have some more inform? I'm guessing not racerx because he is "GONE", but some one else maybe?


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## Jadey (Jun 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by rinse _
> *is this topic what got Jadey in hot water in the first place? *



Yes it was, although I intended no harm.


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## ScottW (Jun 12, 2002)

Apparently Ed moved this thread from some forum (Herve's?) and posted it in Site News. I moved it from Site News (where it didn't belong and was not on topic) to Opinion: Reviews. This thread has never been removed or hidden. It just was moved around my two people.


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## googolplex (Jun 12, 2002)

I think the question is why sin't it being deleted now, when it was before? How has your opinion changed Admin? Even though we can now post this now, I think an explanation is still in order.


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## Wedge (Jun 12, 2002)

Is it just me or is everyone talking about anything else but the topic of this thread?

Are there no other opions beyond Press3 and Apple? and how much do they cost? and how hard are they? and do I need much in the way of equipment (which I can't afford currently)?

Help


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## Jadey (Jun 12, 2002)

These were some of the questions I had hoped to address originally. If anyone has taken the exams, please add your thoughts.


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## malson (Jun 13, 2002)

I found this earlier today over at ArsTechnica. Sounds like Press3 is a scam/worthless certification. Use caution...

Ripoff alert! Mac certification...


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## Jadey (Jun 13, 2002)

The people there were really complaining about the reputation of the Press3 certifications versus Apple's. Apple's of course would have a better reputation, Press3 being a new company. This doesn't make non-Apple certs a scam, just means some employers may not consider you a Mac CSE if you didn't have your certification right from Apple. 

He did mention the nature of the questions though. Has anyone taken both? Are Press3's questions vastly different from Apple's?


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## .dev.lqd (Jun 13, 2002)

Trip- that was EXCEEDINGLY eloquent. I'd attempted a few replies, touching on various points of yours, but thank you for saying that. 

Calling these a scam is not only unjustly accusative, but it's nearly illegal. 

Certifications require some kind of industry standing, and you need to be succesful to have that standing, but to become succesful you need to have a good industry standing. Obviously- this is not an easy market to enter. 

However, whenever you're doing anything new and difficult, I'd consider it imperative to listen to criticism and really try to conform to what the market will respond to. Those types of things make for good business.

My question would be whether or not one person has the time or resources to develop exams that are comprehensive enough, were I in the market for these certifications. Since the examinations are so new and relatively untested, what insurance do I have that I'll be pleased with the results? How do these examinations compare with the apple certifications? 

What incentive do I have to opt for Press3's certifications when compared to Apple's already well established program, cost aside?

I ask these questions in honest criticism of Press3's policies alone, not as a judgement of their character or intent.


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## RacerX (Jun 13, 2002)

> _stated by testuser_
> *From what I have read, labeling these certifications as a "scam" is tantamount to libel. There certainly is no scam; there is nothing illegal or dishonest going on. To explicitly state such an accusation is fraud in its own right.*



*Definitions* (from _American Heritage Dictionary_):
*libel:* A written, printed, or pictorial statement that maliciously damages a person's reputation.
*fraud:* A deliberate deception for unfair or unlawful gain; swindle.

To prove _libel_ in this case you must first prove malice, and the opinions of people not happy with *Press3*'s products would hardly qualify. I would also point out that Admin's own actions in the course of recent events did more damage to *Press3*'s reputation than any of these statements of opinion by these people. I don't believe that the use of the term _fraud_ is accurate either. These people seem to be acting on good faith. Which is not to say that their statements were not emotionally charged, but that does not prove deception. Also they had nothing to gain from their statements.

Other than that, I agree with the rest of testuser's post which actually mirrored the post I originally made in response to Jadey's original thread last Friday (that was later deleted). I thought the suggestion of using free documentation from Apple as the source and training material for the exams was a great idea. As I recall. Apple had a _Mac OS X 101_ for service techs that was downloadable for anyone as a pdf. It had a number of mistakes, but once corrected, could have been a great resource.

I would also point out that I tried to offer my services to Admin back in January. I have had years of experience with both Macs and the operating systems that lead up to Mac OS X (as most of you know), but this was his response:



> _Admin (1-2-2002):_
> *As for the Certification program, it is a cheaper alternative, but not necessarily easier.  One test taker said they had taken Mac OS X classes and passed certification from Apple, but failed ours. Others passed it with flying colors.  *



I'm not sure that he understood what I was offering, and he seem to think I was looking for more certification. Unfortunately, people don't call me based on certification, they call based on recommendations of my other clients. My knowledge and background is far more important is solving problems than any certification I could have in hand.

I think it is also important to note that Admin could have addressed these issues and graciously accepted suggestions. His actions actually did more to call into question the practices of *Press3* than any of these statements by people who have taken the test. One can only question his motives for the extreme emotional out bursts on his part and his complete over reaction to Jadey's original post. My personal views of *Press3* certification have changed drastically from what they were when I originally posted my response last Friday... and not for the better.


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## Mindy (Jun 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RacerX _
> *In an effort to help improve the Press3 exams, I am posting these reviews by people who have taken them (originally posted by Jadey on 6/7/2002). I have not taken these exams or been part of the program, but I did choose Apple's training program (which is designed quite differently... but then again, their Apple and have Apple's resources).
> 
> Link 1
> ...



Well, RacerX, you may have valid points BUT it's hard to take points from someone who claims to be GONE by the use of their Avatar but are still posting.  It's rather hard to take you seriously. You seem like a very confused individual!   

Having worked at a ton of different businesses over the years, I do know this: you usually only hear from the people who don't like your service, and very very very rarely from people who love it!  That's just the nature of people.  Those are two people's opinions just that!

Again, are you HERE or GONE?


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## .dev.lqd (Jun 14, 2002)

Mindy... this thread is not a place to make petty comments regarding avatars or grammar. This issue is loaded for a lot of people involved, and I'm not sure that you've a full grasp of the situation or its history.

The negative reviews aside, Press3's website perpetuates our questions. Actual market acceptance of a certification ought to offer more evidence than a handful of quotes. 

Also- regardless of the textbook definition of libel, I'm of the opinion that calling a business a scam in a public forum is close enough that I would tread VERY lightly. I've seen lawyers get up in arms over far less, and even my mother served a notice for criticizing a high school teacher. People take their reputations very seriously, and the law can back them up, businesses even more so. There have also been precedents set regarding online forums (comments posted to an AOL discussion board) so, again: TREAD LIGHTLY.


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## Mindy (Jun 14, 2002)

Actually, I have been following the issue quite closely and just because I am not a posting fool around here doesn't mean that I am not fully aware of the issues involved!  And, thanks to our good Admin, I'm allowed to have my opinion just like the rest of you!  

As for market acceptance of a product, that is something that is built and rarely happens overnight unless you're a Cabbage Patch Doll!  Building brand awareness and gaining publicity takes time.  I mean, neither Apple nor Microsoft became overnight successes - it took a lot of really hard work, development, trial and error by their founders, etc.  

I think someone's comment was interesting:
"I thought the suggestion of using free documentation from Apple as the source and training material for the exams was a great idea. As I recall. Apple had a Mac OS X 101 for service techs that was downloadable for anyone as a pdf. It had a number of mistakes, but once corrected, could have been a great resource."

Yes, using Apple's materials would be virtually the same as Press 3 endorsing Apple's Certifications and not it's own.  Besides, if I'm correct, the Admin chose NOT to provide a training course for his exams.  His focus was on experience.  If you knew the info, he figured you would most likely pass. He didn't set out to provide training materials so that they would become the Cliff Notes of the internet for certifications.  That was his choice and he was never silent on the issue if I remember from his documentation on the Press 3 website.

As for accepting suggestions, just because the Admin didn't accept YOUR recommendation/suggestion doesn't mean that he's "thrown the baby out with the bath water" as the saying goes.  All good companies and founders gain great information from people's comments - good or bad - and decide based on their own insight and experience, whether to take the comments seriously or not.

That's just my two cents worth for the morning!  I hear a lot of comments from people who have strong negative opinions about the Admin, and in the spirit of my previous post, I've chosen to post alternatives to the status quo thinking around here.  Thank God we have a messageboard and members that are cool enough to allow various thinking!


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## .dev.lqd (Jun 14, 2002)

Thank for that extremely positive post and your unique perspective. Honestly.

I'd feared we'd get nothing productive from this thread since the only people who appeared interested in talking about it were also the ones who were so jaded because of the whole mess. I admit my initial criticism was presumptuous, but I was frustrated by the overall 'well, you have valid points, but here I'll discredit you for this silly reason' of your first post, which I think you'll have to admit to. 

My assumption of your knowledge of the topic was based on that same dismissive tonality of your first post, which led me to think you were, in fact, persecuting Racer only because of his negative stance on the issue. I see that this was not the case, due to your multiple comments regarding the acceptance of differing viewpoints.

Again, thank you for your new take on the situation. It's been a breath of fresh air.


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## DaYoka (Jun 14, 2002)

Well, I frequent these and other forums, but have never posted. Why? Cause I don't like getting caught up in everything, especially threads like this that have obviously gone sour.

However, from Mindy's post, I decided to register and jump in. I am Press 3 Certified. I am proud of it. The exams where not easy, and I am glad they weren't. I did manage to pass them all without needing additional retakes. 

Press 3's Certification is a fantastic addition to the Mac Certification track. Apple, although has certification, has not been the best on promoting or making them really known. Obviously, Apple is better known, but that doesn't make Press 3's Certification any less, just not as known. 

I don't have an issue with the moderators keeping the boards clean. I challenge anyone to go to Apple's forums to post a thread "Bad Press About Apple Certifications" and then proceed to link to various message board posts around the net on people who think Apple's Certifications are a joke. See how long that thread lasts. I saw the original short lived post that Jadey made. It caught my eye because of the head subject title.

It is sad a few spoil sports really who think they are "up and beyond" have to come in and ruin the whole thing. Count your blessings... and RacerX... here again, gone tomorrow... your not really building a very good rep yourself around here.

daYoka


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## benpoole (Jun 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by DaYoka _
> *It is sad a few spoil sports really who think they are "up and beyond" have to come in and ruin the whole thing. Count your blessings... and RacerX... here again, gone tomorrow... your not really building a very good rep yourself around here.*


Well, OK, fair enough, the whole censorsip / threats episode soured a lot of things, but did you actually _see_ what Admin posted when the site was down the other day?

Talk about reputations... and the typos etc. in this notice didn't help!

Anyway, I think you'll find that having a good / bad reputation amongst a minority at macosx.com doesn't really bother most people, RacerX included


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## RacerX (Jun 14, 2002)

> _pointed out so graciously by Mindy_
> *You seem like a very confused individual!*



That seems fair. Any review of my posting over the last week would lead anyone who visits as infrequently as you (and now me) to believe that. Admin has deleted most of the information on what happened on this site, If you wish more information on the events of last weekend (and I highly doubt that you would want to read at length about them anyway) you could try going to some forums that don't censor posts. I assume you are up on the subject enough to make your comments in good faith, so I shall also assume you can figure out what forums I am talking about.



> _asked by Mindy in a very excited state:_
> *Again, are you HERE or GONE?*



Outside of this thread, I have no reason to post in these forums. This thread is going to die some day (like most threads in most forums) and on that day (unless Admin has apologized to Jadey for the threats) I shall no longer be posting at MacOSX.com. The _GONE_ avatar should no longer confuse you now, but why would I care to take the time to change it. For every other thread, save this one, in MacOSX.com I am gone, seem simple enough to me, but then again, it sounds like you confuse easily.



> _claimed by Mindy:_
> *Actually, I have been following the issue quite closely and just because I am not a posting fool around here doesn't mean that I am not fully aware of the issues involved! And, thanks to our good Admin, I'm allowed to have my opinion just like the rest of you!*



Funny, had you posted your views in a thread like this one last Friday (as I had) your views would have been read by almost no one _thanks to our good Admin_ who quickly deleted the thread (and all threads that later referred to it). Our freedom on this subject has been granted by Admin under duress. If he had his way, you would know nothing of this subject (instead of the painfully small amount you seem to currently).



> _Mindy missing the importance of the subject on this one_
> *Yes, using Apple's materials would be virtually the same as Press 3 endorsing Apple's Certifications and not it's own.*



By the same logic, *Press3* exams should not even include Apple products. Think about it Mindy, I would hate to think you are that slow. The suggestions were that there be something more than the _you know it or you don't_ attitude when preparing for the certification. I would not be able to recommend *Press3* to Wedge because he gets nothing to prepare him for the work he wants to do from *Press3*. At least if there was a *Press3* suggested reading and reference list, then I would feel that Wedge wasn't throwing good money away on an exam he would fail because he had no way of preparing for it.

These suggestions (originally deleted by Admin) are not why people have hard feelings. It was Admin's actions (specifically the threats and banning of members) and lack of remorse are where the strong negative views of Admin are coming from. In all reality, if *Press3* was _not_ Admin, then there would have been less negative views of it by people who have not taken the test. We all expect negative reviews of things (Apple gets them all the time, and it hasn't effected the people who use their products), but when Admin started down an emotional charged path of banning and threats, I think it justifies calling into question what it was that he felt he needed to hide.




> _Mindy's morning thoughts_
> *That's just my two cents worth for the morning! I hear a lot of comments from people who have strong negative opinions about the Admin, and in the spirit of my previous post, I've chosen to post alternatives to the status quo thinking around here.*



Like I said, the negative views of Admin are of his own making. I had nothing but positive feelings for him before last Friday. And as I have also stated, his actions are only forgivable when he is big enough to show true remorse for what he had done (instead of backing down under duress like he did).



> _Mindy's clearest thought to date_
> *Thank God we have a messageboard and members that are cool enough to allow various thinking! *



Yes, I agree. It is just to bad that MacOSX.com is not a messageboard like that.



> _by an even more infequent member than both Mindy and myself, DaYoka_
> *and RacerX... here again, gone tomorrow... your not really building a very good rep yourself around here.*



My reputation on these boards will out live my presents on them. But thank you for your concern. And as Ben pointed out, it is not my reputation that is in question or in any real risk of damage from all this.

Hopefully Admin will take some of this into consideration. Even if he has a problem taking advice from me, testuser's could be considered a good and well meaning source.


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## Wedge (Jun 15, 2002)

Not to be off topic, but is it "Press3" or "Press 3"?

Most of you are calling it "Press3" while Admin/DaYoka is calling it "Press 3". I'm guessing that Admin/DaYoka has it right.

Back to the topic, links to some of this free docs would be helpful. Press 3 seem like a good alternative to the more expensive exams, but I need to prepare and most of the books at the bookstore near me are a little on the pricy side for me right now.

Ya, links would be helpful. Thanx guys.

you can go back to fighting now


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## Jadey (Jun 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by DaYoka _
> *I don't have an issue with the moderators keeping the boards clean. I challenge anyone to go to Apple's forums to post a thread "Bad Press About Apple Certifications" and then proceed to link to various message board posts around the net on people who think Apple's Certifications are a joke. See how long that thread lasts. I saw the original short lived post that Jadey made. It caught my eye because of the head subject title.
> 
> It is sad a few spoil sports really who think they are "up and beyond" have to come in and ruin the whole thing.  *



Well DaYoka, maybe you didn't really read my original thread. I posted I had only read good reviews up to that point, then suddenly I came across these bad ones, did anyone want to rebut? The events that came afterward were a complete surprise to me.

Secondly, as is my understanding, Mindy is the admin's wife. I would be on here too defending my boyfriend, no matter what he'd done, but it would mean my arguments would be subjective.

Congratulations on your new baby, by the way.


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## benpoole (Jun 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Mindy _
> *Actually, I have been following the issue quite closely and just because I am not a posting fool around here... Thank God we have a messageboard and members that are cool enough to allow various thinking!*


Re your latter point, agreed. But I think you need to address two things:

- It has been suggested you have a link to Admin. If that's the case, you should declare this up-front; failure to do so renders your posts pointlessly subjective
- Don't go round proclaiming the need for -- and joys of -- freedom of thought / opinion, whilst at the same time calling those who disagree with you "posting fools."


BTW, if you _are_ Admin's partner, I echo Jadey's congrats!


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## kilowatt (Jun 16, 2002)

it cost me $299 to get the certification study guide from apple. The guide comes on 1 cdrom, and is written in html.

Its utterly stupid too. There are many 404 errors within it. The macosx parts have been added basically as an afterthought. 

Apple's solutions aren't allways the best either. For example, they recomend using sherlock to look at invisable files. Why not make them visable, mess with them, and then make them invisable? Stuff like that.

Press3 certification is based off experiance as I understand it. And any experianced macintosh user knows to use Visability or ResEdit to view and edit invisable files. Not *sherlock* 

Besides, is there any documentation that can make up for lack of experience?

EDIT: Oh, and press3 certification is WAY cheaper than Apple's Apple Care Technician Training. Even if you didn't need the info, you still have to pay to take the test, etc.


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## kilowatt (Jun 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by benpoole _
> *
> - It has been suggested you have a link to Admin. If that's the case, you should declare this up-front; failure to do so renders your posts pointlessly subjective
> - Don't go round proclaiming the need for -- and joys of -- freedom of thought / opinion, whilst at the same time calling those who disagree with you "posting fools."
> ...



1) It doesn't make her posts 'pointlessly subjective'. It simply puts them into a different perspective. Certainly not pointless in any way. If I was married (not untill I'm 30!!!), and I had a business or something, I would value the opinion of my spouce. And I think my customers would too. 

Trust me when I say this, not every spouce has completely kind words to say about their partner.

2) Mindy's point about RacerX's avitar is completely relevant - In a discussion about scams and whatnot, questioning credibility is going to come up, and for good reasons.


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## RacerX (Jun 16, 2002)

> _stated by kilowatt_
> *it cost me $299 to get the certification study guide from apple. The guide comes on 1 cdrom, and is written in html.*



I think you need to ask for your money back if you were that unhappy with the product. The _guide_, which does come on one CD-ROM and is written in HTML, is trivial for someone experienced with Macintoshes in general. The other 7 CD-ROMs more than made up for the first for me.

An example of their value (again, for me) came up when I was asked by a client to repair a PowerBook 3400c/240. I've never owned a 3400, I had never _taken a part_ a 3400, and without the product manual (in PDF form on the _second_ CD-ROM) I would have had some problems taking a part and locating the problem with that system. Within an hour I had a completely dead PowerBook up and running again.



> _kilowatt displaying his famous temperament_
> *Its utterly stupid too. There are many 404 errors within it. The macosx parts have been added basically as an afterthought.*



If you had gotten your copy before Apple retired the TIL, yes, you most assuredly got a ton of 404 errors... or if you try doing thinks while not connected to the internet. And it didn't cover much of System 6 or 7, or A/UX, or Mac OS X Server 1.x, or AppleShare IP 5.x and 6.x as I recall. All subjects that I find to be very important on a daily bases. The program (like *Press3*'s) is designed to show a minimum competence in the materials. The difference is that Apple supplies you with the materials and *Press3* doesn't. 

I am not suggesting that *Press3* provide those materials (which would increase the cost), just that they provide at least some direction on where they can be found. Also most certification programs help to make you competent in the information covered. It sounds more and more like *Press3* is only a test for those who know what is already on it. And to find that out you must pay the initial fee. This means that this program is for the elite and not someone like Wedge who is starting out.



> *Apple's solutions aren't allways the best either. For example, they recomend using sherlock to look at invisable files. Why not make them visable, mess with them, and then make them invisable? Stuff like that.*



Like I said, Apple's program is trying to bring the average user up to the point of meeting their minimum standards for a service tech. That seems fair enough, and I realized that when I first saw the training CD. Funny how that concept seems to be so far beyond your ability to comprehend it.



> *Press3 certification is based off experiance as I understand it. And any experianced macintosh user knows to use Visability or ResEdit to view and edit invisable files. Not *sherlock* *



Which is why it is not the best choice for someone who is looking to get started. If they want to make it such a choice, then they should help them learn what they need to know. Even the average experienced user doesn't have complete experience with all of Apple's products that they should to honestly do tech support.



> *Besides, is there any documentation that can make up for lack of experience?*



Yes. even after more than ten years experience, I know that I have not seen or worked with every Apple product I may come across. The PowerBook 3400 was a good example were documentation off set my lack of experience with that product. If anything I would say that Apple doesn't provide enough documentation (weren't you complaining about that earlier with the Mac OS X part of the training guide?), but they do teach you where to find a lot of it.



> _kilowatt weighs in on another subject_
> *1) It doesn't make her posts 'pointlessly subjective'. It simply puts them into a different perspective. Certainly not pointless in any way. If I was married (not untill I'm 30!!!), and I had a business or something, I would value the opinion of my spouce. And I think my customers would too.
> 
> Trust me when I say this, not every spouce has completely kind words to say about their partner.*



With an attitude like that last statement, I would guess _not even_ when you are 30. 

Mindy presented herself as an average member in her statements, and not as someone with as much of a vested interest in *Press3* as Admin. That does render her _we_ statements questionable at best. And her statements of having read the documentation of *Press3*'s site in passing deceptive at the least. Both of which hurt the credibility of both her and Admin, and *Press3*. As Admin's wife she should have represented herself as an agent of the *Press3* organization in stead of the hapless bystander.

And of course she is not going to find Admin to be an _evil guy_, and would do anything to support him publicly. Though in the context of this thread I find her statements disappointing... I would also judge her to be a loving and devoted wife. 



> *2) Mindy's point about RacerX's avitar is completely relevant - In a discussion about scams and whatnot, questioning credibility is going to come up, and for good reasons.*



And so it should. This is, in the end, a question about the credibility of the people involved. And lets look at some of them a little closer for kilowatt's benefit, shall we.


*RacerX* (me  )*:* I have through out this made no false or misleading statements. I have ask the questions that I honestly have and am waiting responses. I do not work for Apple Computer, I do not work for *Press3* (if you haven't guessed already), and I do not work for a *Press3* competitor. My personal involvement in this started with Admin deleting my posts on the subject. My continued _thorn in Admin's side_ status is based on actions he took against friends of mine (acts against my friends I shall always take personally). The fact that I continue to make constructive suggestions is based on the spirit of the original deleted thread by Jadey and my original post there (actually, I couldn't care less if *Press3* fails at this point or not).

*Jadey:* Jadey's original thread was actually designed to rally support for *Press3* and to make helpful suggestions that would answer the questions raised by the critics. Admin deleted her thread. Admin deleted her thread asking what happened to the first thread. Admin deleted the thread questioning censorship of topics on these boards. Admin threaten her.

*Admin:* As pointed out, Admin did a lot of deleting, but the reasons he has given (I suggest that they may sound strangely like this quote: _I challenge anyone to go to Apple's forums to post a thread "Bad Press About Apple Certifications" and then proceed to link to various message board posts around the net on people who think Apple's Certifications are a joke. See how long that thread lasts._) are not actually good ones for an open forum as he had presented MacOSX.com to be. It should be noted that *Press3* was using MacOSX.com member's for technical support. Admin also threaten Jadey, banned at least Sithious (if not others) and started a draconian censorship program that was only ended under duress. My questions have always been why the emotionally charge actions needed to take place in the first place. Because nothing that had happen up to the point of Admin deleting Jadey's first thread could have provided reason to the actions taken by Admin, therefore there must be some other aspect of *Press3* that Admin feels the need to hide. (note: Apple's boards are by definition not an open public forum, and are for discussing support issues only)

*Mindy:* Admins loving wife, and more than an innocent bystander. If their relationship is as strong as mine is with my wife, I would take her feelings as being both her's and Admin's (I would hope they would have a united front). That would also explain the strong negative feeling from her (when we had never had any other encounters before this).

*Sithious:* Always one to defend a friend in need and to stand up for what he believes in... no matter what the cost.

*Kilowatt:* Comic relief.
That should put most of our respective credibilities into some perspective (avatars aside).


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## RacerX (Jun 16, 2002)

Not to throw a cloud of mistrust on kilowatt, but it should be pointed out that he has a close relationship to Admin (as he was one of the only people PMed by Admin when Mindy gave birth). Relationships like these should be up front in order to put all points of view into their proper perspectives.


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## Jadey (Jun 16, 2002)

kilowatt and RacerX, thanks both for you comments on the two different certifications. They've been most helpful.


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## benpoole (Jun 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by kilowatt _
> *1) It doesn't make her posts 'pointlessly subjective'. It simply puts them into a different perspective. Certainly not pointless in any way. If I was married (not untill I'm 30!!!), and I had a business or something, I would value the opinion of my spouce. And I think my customers would too.*


The word is "spouse" -- I should know, I've had one for sometime. So I know of what I speak with regards marriage  As for the usefulness of Minday's comments, of course her relationship to Admin has a bearing on all of this! As would yours or mine! Don't be so naive.



> *Trust me when I say this, not every spouce has completely kind words to say about their partner.*


Uh yeah, thanks. See above. See also dictionary / "patronising"...

*



			2) Mindy's point about RacerX's avitar is completely relevant - In a discussion about scams and whatnot, questioning credibility is going to come up, and for good reasons.
		
Click to expand...

*Now you're just contradicting yourself... I was of much the same opinion re avatars until I found out what was really going on. Now, _you_ start in about questionable credibility given what we know about you and Mindy...

Well, thanks for the laughs!

Now, moving back to the TOPIC OF THIS THREAD, I have no experience of either Apple or Press 3 with regards certification. I have experience of other organisations, and their moves in this area.

It's a thorny one, because ultimately much of it based upon reputation / perception. If someone says they're Apple / Microsoft / Lotus / Novell certified, and are going for jobs in those areas, then I would hazard that most empoyers would go for those certifications (regardless of actual quality) because of the names associated with them.

So where does that leave an organisation like Press 3? Certainly they have more of a climb up that hill. They need to build the reputation to back up the certification they offer, regardless of the quality of the material / questions they offer. And so far, all I've heard in public forums is a few people dissing them. How many have taken the certifications? What about getting some positive experiences voiced out there?


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## kilowatt (Jun 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RacerX _
> *
> 
> I think you need to ask for your money back if you were that unhappy with the product. The guide, which does come on one CD-ROM and is written in HTML, is trivial for someone experienced with Macintoshes in general. The other 7 CD-ROMs more than made up for the first for me.
> ...



Actually though, more than documentation was required for that. You had to know what you were doing. Uninformed people may know how to take apart a laptop, but what if they had never used a hex key before? Or if they spill something inside it? There are lots of things that simply cannot be learned solely through a pdf file.



> *
> If you had gotten your copy before Apple retired the TIL, yes, you most assuredly got a ton of 404 errors... or if you try doing thinks while not connected to the internet.
> *


Actually, the 404 errors were for files on the cd. A simple check with wget could have shown this (shame on you apple! check your html nex time)
*



			And it didn't cover much of System 6 or 7, or A/UX, or Mac OS X Server 1.x, or AppleShare IP 5.x and 6.x as I recall. All subjects that I find to be very important on a daily bases.
		
Click to expand...

*While their usefullness can be debated, apple has limited support in these areas. AppleCare Technician Training for Desktops doesn't need to cover A/UX.
*



			The program (like Press3's) is designed to show a minimum competence in the materials. The difference is that Apple supplies you with the materials and Press3 doesn't.
		
Click to expand...

*I guess we're just going to disagree on this. As I see it, although press3 can guide one to, say read this or that, experience in the fleid simply can't be a 'cram and jam' test.

*



			I am not suggesting that Press3 provide those materials (which would increase the cost), just that they provide at least some direction on where they can be found. Also most certification programs help to make you competent in the information covered. It sounds more and more like Press3 is only a test for those who know what is already on it.
		
Click to expand...

*You're sort of got it. Its for experienced people. People who have been in the field. 
Not for newbies, imo
*



			And to find that out you must pay the initial fee. This means that this program is for the elite and not someone like Wedge who is starting out.
		
Click to expand...

*I had to pay the initial fee for the AppleCare Technician Training. Apple wasn't like 'umm, here is whats on the exam'
*



			Like I said, Apple's program is trying to bring the average user up to the point of meeting their minimum standards for a service tech. That seems fair enough, and I realized that when I first saw the training CD. Funny how that concept seems to be so far beyond your ability to comprehend it.
		
Click to expand...

*Ok, now that was just low. I completely comprehend what applecare technician training is for. But you did tick me off, if that was your goal 

*



			Which is why it is not the best choice for someone who is looking to get started. If they want to make it such a choice, then they should help them learn what they need to know. Even the average experienced user doesn't have complete experience with all of Apple's products that they should to honestly do tech support.
		
Click to expand...

*Let me quote from press3.com:
"Press 3 Certifications focus on experience based questions - questions that can't be answered through downloading a study guide or cramming for an exam. Our exams are passed by those with hands-on experience in their given area of expertise. "

*



			Yes. even after more than ten years experience, I know that I have not seen or worked with every Apple product I may come across. The PowerBook 3400 was a good example were documentation off set my lack of experience with that product. If anything I would say that Apple doesn't provide enough documentation (weren't you complaining about that earlier with the Mac OS X part of the training guide?), but they do teach you where to find a lot of it.
		
Click to expand...

*Still, your experience is what allowed you to fix the powerbook by reading the documentation. If you had never worked on  computer hardware before, simply reading the documentation and going at it would have been a mistake.




> *
> With an attitude like that last statement, I would guess not even when you are 30.
> *



LOL! Hey, maybe! I've had my share in this area, and at the moment, have had enough "women trouble" for now! (no offence to the female readers here - I know yall have your man-troubles as well)



> *
> Mindy presented herself as an average member in her statements, and not as someone with as much of a vested interest in Press3 as Admin. That does render her we statements questionable at best.
> *



I'll give you a half point there - sure, she's a bit biased, although I can't see it. Consider this though, as admin's wife, might she have  a closer perspective? I imagine so. I value her opinion as much, if not more, than I value yours. RacerX, have you taken the press3 tests?

*



			And her statements of having read the documentation of Press3's site in passing deceptive at the least. Both of which hurt the credibility of both her and Admin, and Press3. As Admin's wife she should have represented herself as an agent of the Press3 organization in stead of the hapless bystander.
		
Click to expand...

*wow now, we're geeks, not lawyers here 
She probably figured you guys knew that - just look at your post counts!
*



			And of course she is not going to find Admin to be an evil guy, and would do anything to support him publicly. Though in the context of this thread I find her statements disappointing... I would also judge her to be a loving and devoted wife.
		
Click to expand...

* "evil guy" ? heh I find things far from that. Evil people don't spend time and money developing a free tech support site. But thats for another thread.

*



			And so it should. This is, in the end, a question about the credibility of the people involved. And lets look at some of them a little closer for kilowatt's benefit, shall we.
		
Click to expand...

*
Umm, how about not. I don't know where you got all that from, but its off topic, and imo, in poor taste. 

*Jadey*, btw, you are welcome for my opinions on press3 and apple care technical training. Ask any time


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## yoshi (Jun 17, 2002)

this message is to RacerX and only RacerX:

First off you say your gone. Okay fair enough everyone has their own opinions thoughts etc, whatever. Then you return to post a topic thats a sensitive issue which is okay things need to be talked about. Its the way you bring them up and mention them. The truth whatever it may be, is entirely irrelevant in this post. This post is totally about you racerx. Please read on!

here is where my problem with you comes in: Your supposed to be a mature adult by your age. a lot of the members here are teenagers or young adults and I can understand them posting and acting like you have. But you, you are old enough to be mature about things like this. I don't know but i think you have some severe mental issues going on in your head to be talking about admin or his wife in anything other than a respectful way in public. I know for a fact how much work goes on around here and a few others do as well.  You act like a 13 year old who has had his toy taken away! You need to act your age.

As for you leaving, I will open the door for you to get the heck out. A forum like this does not need a 30 year old mentally handicapped moron like you around. As kilowatt stated the press 3 exams are designed for people who have had years of experience in the field and know the stuff they need already but need proof on paper. I guess someone like you would need some help to understand that.

Your next argument is going to be: "well you are a newb here, I don't see you post a lot,etc, etc" Let me tell you something, I have been reading these forums for a long time, I remember when the site first opened, I left shortly after only to return late last year. I am reading posts all the time and just because I don't have a 2000 1 line useless posts like you doesn't mean I don't have a valid point, it just means I know when to keep my mouth shut and when to open it.

You say in your opening post you are trying to improve press 3's exams. Let me ask you this, have you taken them or even seen a sample of them? Because if not them you have no idea on how much improvement they need or anything about them in which case its time to shut your pie hole. 

Racerx I have no idea how you did it but you put me in a very upset state. I haven't been this upset in a long time, you disrespecting mindy is what did it. I thought someone at your age would learn to respect women, especially mindy as she has just had a child. I hope one day that you learn to have a life as sitting on a message board for 8 hours a day stirring up strife is just retarded. You are a disgrace to everyone on macosx.com and I hope you never come back the way you are. Please call someone and get some help. 

Mindy you are an inspiration to me to have to deal with some a-hole comments the way you have. Congrats. on your child. 

May all be in peace

~Yoshi


BTW Racer if I catch you on IRC you are dead.


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## yoshi (Jun 17, 2002)

this message again is for racerx and only racerx. 

Racerx amazingly after all the typing I did in the last post I am still upset at you and I am going to shred you up piece by piece this time to relieve all the pent up anger you have caused inside of me. 

What I still don't understand is you coming back to post this thread. With all that happened while I was gone I would have thought you would have been long gone or banned or something but due to Admins naturally full of grace nature I can see you are still here spreading hatred.

Your stating a helpful cause of this thread was merely a cover for you to post something you know you should talk about in private with Admin. While I agree the subject should be talked about it shouldn't be talked about in a way thats negative or positve. All Jadey needed was some personal experiences, not a freakin 2 page post of why press 3 is illegal or whatever you said. 

In short you are a snivling little judas and You are truely a cancer to this community and to everyone in it.  I sincerely hope you get on irc because I have some comments for you that aren't appropriate for a public setting. I also want you to notice that you need to excersize control over your emotions when typing. its something you aquire with age although in your case I think you were dropped on your head.

~Yoshi


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## RacerX (Jun 17, 2002)

Kilowatt, I take it all back.... Yoshi must be the comic relief! Thank you so much Yoshi, that has to be the best adolescent babbling that I have seen on these boards in over a year (if not longer). I truly hope that your high school doesn't graduate you while you are at  your current reading comprehension level. It would be a disservice to you.

Small suggestion here Yoshi, reread your entertaining posts again, then actually read this thread (for the first time), then try and back up any of your statements with actual quotes by me. The funny thing is that I have only stated the facts of the events as they have occurred.



> _said by Yoshi while foaming at the mouth_
> *I also want you to notice that you need to excersize control over your emotions when typing.*



Really? You don't say. Funny thing about it is that anyone reading this is going to see your comments as being unbalanced and out of control emotionally... not mine.  My most emotionally charged statement in this thread: _actually, I couldn't care less if *Press3* fails at this point or not_.

If you *really* want to help Scott and Mindy, disappear from this thread. I can't tell you how embarrassed I feel for them right now thanks to your post. All I can say is thank you for not taking my side in this.

And thanks again for the laughs Yoshi.


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## kilowatt (Jun 17, 2002)

Racerx, if anything, I find *your* posts comical. Although, to be honest, there isn't much comical about them.

I think you know you have lost. And you're not going to put me against yoshi by saying he's the comic relief now. 

Racerx, yoshi is right (I read it even though it was only to you - sorry yoshi). You are a disgrace to this place. 

I hate to make such personal comments, but it really annoys me. This slanderous posting about press3 hurts me. And it hurts many others here. 

While I will miss your firey political debates, and large knowledge of legacy apple hardware and software, I will not miss your utter disrespect for others.


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## RacerX (Jun 17, 2002)

> _kilowatt, talking about the lighter side of things_
> *Racerx, if anything, I find your posts comical.*



Good, Im being good humored about this, so should you.



> *I think you know you have lost. And you're not going to put me against yoshi by saying he's the comic relief now.*



I dont know what relationship you and David have, but it really isnt much of my concern. And you can't lose by sticking with the truth. I've made a home else where, I just hate to back down from a fight (specially against people who can't even tell what it is they are fighting for).



> *Racerx, yoshi is right (I read it even though it was only to you - sorry yoshi). You are a discrase to this place.*



In what way? Not that I care, but people shouldnt just post something to post it. Show how anything Ive done has been disgraceful? The personal attacks was started by others first (like yourself, and Mindy) first... I simply responded.



> *I hate to make such personal coments, but it really annoys me. This slanderous posting about press3 hurts me. And it hurts many others here. *



Sorry, Im something of a definition person here. Please show and detail any _slanderous_ statements I have made in this (or any thread) about *Press3*.



> *While I will miss your firey political debates, and large knowledge of legacy apple hardware and software, I will not miss your utter disrespect for others.*



You and Mindy jumped into this thread with chips on your collective shoulders. Though I disagreed with things said by testuser, he said nothing personal, so I had nothing personal to respond with. Think about it and reread your posts. I think if you take an honest look youll see that I only responded... in greater force.

To everyone,

We are all saying things on the record here. If you really can't back up what you are saying, please don't post it. I promiss you I'll use everything you post here against you if you give me the chance. Lets all stick to the facts, that way I can't keep pounding you guys with your _little white lies_.


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## edX (Jun 17, 2002)

well, i really was going to sit this one out, but..

yoshi ...not only have you broken site policy in directly attacking another site member by calling them names, you sadly make RacerX's last post very true, only i really didn't find it funny.

I will cite that RacerX never said anything defamatory about Mindy. he merely called into question her objectivity. Frankly, any good social scientist would have done the same.

On the other hand, you need to all CHILL OUT!! This thread is starting to get along way from the topic of debate. It is becoming a set of personal attacks, most slyly hidden in 3rd party descriptions or directed at people's actions rather than their beings. Almost everyone here but JADEY is guilty of it. 

at this point i wish i had left this thread in the rumors forum. cause then i could edit and censor and delete all sorts of stuff that has no business here - starting with yoshi's posts and working backwards.

Look - there are no good guys and bad guys here. there are a bunch of humans involved in online life. some of them have made some mistakes recently. If you never made one, then stand on my shoulders and tell the world now. but still,  the people involved in this mistake are not the topic of this thread. If you want to talk about each other, go to herve's forum and let's talk about human behaviour. If none of you have ever buckled under stress like Scott did recently, then you've got some life left to live. and to those of you who think that any questioning of Scott's behaviour is the same as declaring war, i suggest you get involved in some good group therapy sessions. Problems don't resolve themselves by friends defending friends until the two friends that started it all aren't even the point any more.

See, i know most everyone here, some better than others. There's not a 'bad' person in the crowd. and there aren't any "morons".  But there are getting to be some good people who are getting emotionally wrapped up in what should be a meaningful discussion. 

Ok - Scott did something he shouldn't have. He admitted he was wrong after public actions and voices (remember he read all those posts he censored and who they were from) gave him insight into his mistake. Duress or not, he saw the error in his ways and admitteed as much publicly. and many people here had no idea about what happened until he did. does he owe Jadey an apology? probably so. mostly for mistrusting someone who has been so loyal for so long. I am sure that under less stress, he might have thought more about that aspect. will he apologize?? i don't know, but it really isn't my business. It's his and Jadey's at this point. Because i think there are those of you have made it clear that this is what you expect. this is one of those things you aren't going to just will into existence.

so go back to debating the issue - can press3 overcome neg. reviews and if so, how? At this point is it worth it?  but leave the personal attacks and scorecards of the players out of it. too many good people getting all worked up over a real human mistake - probably fueled by a mixture of real human emotions - anger and fear. While Scott agreed to take the week off, everybody else has been driving their own stress levels up to where his was to start with. 

Let me tell you - it isn't good for you, it isn't good for your relationships and it isn't going to help Scott calm down and discuss this with you rationally at some point. 

and this part is for yoshi and yoshi only - i am ashamed to call myself moderator if you are my peer. Your words are the very thing i seek to moderate. I'm not sure it would do any good to report you, but i think you have set a very poor example for those you claim to be protecting. and the worst part - you ask RacerX to irc, your 'forum' of moderation so that you can treat him the way you are supposed to be in charge of keeping others from doing. This reflect poorly on the site, on the chat room and mostly so on you.

(and kilowatt my friend, you didn't do yourself any favors by jumping on yoshi's bandwagon .  ) 

my biggest conclusion from all this - nobody is right. and almost everybody has said _something_ wrong. and that probably now includes me.


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## .dev.lqd (Jun 17, 2002)

Gosh guys, I leave for a day or two. 

Ed, you're my hero.

Everyone needs to take stock of their respective emotions, cut their losses, and try to move on. The issue is simply too charged and heated for it to be debated much further by those currently involved without it becoming personal. 

The person who can add to this topic is taking a well deserved break, and I hope it's the farthest thing from his mind, because children are wonderful things, albeit stressful. 

Killowatt and Yoshi- the base word of moderator is moderate. Keep that in mind from now on.


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## googolplex (Jun 17, 2002)

Wow this thread has gotten out of control, I think everyone does need to calm down. I aggree, the only person who hasn't done something wrong is Jadey, which is quite ironic given the situation. We have to stop attacking each other and trying to pick holes in each others posts as a reply. Both sides are guilty of 'personal attacks' although some by yoshi may have been more apparent I think calling someone 'comic relief' is also a personal attack, since it is like being told your opinions don't matter.

Anyways, its hard for me to get wrapped up in this since I'm friends with people on both sides. If I start to take a side more then I already have I'm worried I will lose some good friendships that I have built up over time on here and elsewhere.

May I suggest that Mindy pass this message on to admin. I think it would be beneficial if he came out and gave us all an honest, down to earth post about his actions. I think everyone could accept it better if he talked to us in a more direct way, rather then just posting forum policy changes.

Everyone needs to calm down.


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## evildan (Jun 17, 2002)

Well I'm happy to see people cooling off a bit in this thread. I'm the moderator in this here parts.  

Anyway, my approach to moderation was just that, moderation. I had been reading this thread since it found its way to this forum. I had hoped that you people wouldn't have resorted to name calling, because it destroys the debate for which this thread was created. In addition to possibly being offensive, of course.

Point of fact I made this thread my first visit today to see if the bickering had continued since my last visit. Im happy to see some of you realizing the errors of your ways.

It has been my experience that the best way to loose a debate is to sling a little mud. Well the mud has been slung, so lets clean ourselves off a bit and continue the debate if we are so inclined, but without the name calling please. 

Googolplex is right, this has gotten a bit out of control, specifically in the name calling.


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## kilowatt (Jun 17, 2002)

Ed, you're right, we did go overboard there  certainly not 'moderate'. 

Not that this is an excuse, but I think when I see nevagive thoughts on press3, I get easily upset.

For the record, I do disagree with racerx on nearly everything he has said here.

BUT, I don't hate him. Or anyone else here (Though my attitude has perhaps suggested that I do).

Press3 and macosx.com hold a special place in my heart. I am sorry to have tarnished it by my comments in this thread.


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## edX (Jun 17, 2002)

thanks for acknowledging that kilowatt. i kind of thought that was the case. well said reply. none of my friends have to agree with each other to keep me loving them. i don't agree with all of what anybody else has to say most of the time myself. that's why we talk these things thru and see what we can come up with. there's no reson that the discussion can't continue with a little mutual respect for differences of opinion. 

Here, i'll start. I think one issue that deserves to be addressed is the fact that press3 was using macosx forums to provide help. it makes sense that members of that community would feel threatened about reading negative reviews to something they are indirectly (?) connected to. and to want to remedy the situation. Likewise it seems reasonable for the certification process to still be in need of tweeking. As kilowatt pointed out, apple didn't perfect theirs overnight. So how can members of macosx contribute helpfull suggestions to see the certifications and reputation of this community grow into something more meaningful and with good standing in the larger community? And can that really be done by anyone who hasn't seen or taken the tests.?


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## Wedge (Jun 17, 2002)

If the fighting is done, the main topic is very important to me.

So is Press 3 good for me or not? Racerx says no, kilowatt has discribed it in a way that also says no, and testuser made suggestions that would make it so that it seems like it would be good.

I have up grades my 6100 to a G3, added RAM, replaced a HD, installed a number of versions of the system. kilowatt, where do I get the experience to take Press 3? If I could afford a better system, then I could also afford Apple's IT stuff (which sounds like it is designed for someone like me). Other than the Apple store and CompUSA, I have not been able to play with 9 or X for any large amount of time.

After testuser talk about Apple's docuemnts at their site, I found some, but I don't know where to start. Maybe Mindy and Admin don't want this for people like me, but when I first heard about it it sounded great.

I searched these threads for almost 2 weeks now, and I find lots of answers I don't really understand because I don't have the stuff in front of me (like OSX and Unix and all). A friend was going to give me photoshop 2.5 that should run on my system so I can try some of the things I see here. I just need some direction to start. If blingbling can get up and running with a newer (not new) system and seems to have some type of handle on this stuff, then maybe I should invest in hardware. I just want to start looking for a job by the end of summer.

Even thow Mindy didn't like Racerx's idea about OSX 101, I would very much like to have that. I was not able to find anything like it, so again links would be helpful. Thank you guys for the ideas and testuser, you seem to know the most, please post links to free docs. 

Thanx


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## nkuvu (Jun 17, 2002)

> _testuser sanely stated:_
> *When everyone carries their ball home (Admin removing legitimate posts, and members by withholding patronage) because of perceived grievances the general Mac community loses a valuable resource.
> 
> I suggest that someone create a "kiss and make up" thread. Making-up is one of the best parts of any relationship.*


I've been trying to stay quiet through this whole issue, but I wanted to raise some points.

In my mind, the Mac community has already lost a valuable resource.  When Mac users are resorting to name calling and fighting amongst themselves, it is not a valuable resource.

I am leaving this community, but not with anger.  I sincerely regret this decision, but I am not comfortable in this environment any longer.

There are really two issues in this thread, that should be separated into two threads.  The problem is that the information is wound up together, so extracting the two from each other would be a tedious process.  The two issues are, of course, Press3 certifications and the administration of this forum.

I'm not prepared to speak at length about the Press3 certifications.  I do, however, feel that even if I haven't taken them I can most certainly discuss them rationally.  If I see someone else criticizing these tests, I can turn to the people who run the tests and say "What about this?  Is this true?".  I can discuss differing testing methodologies without having direct experience with the tests in question.

What I do want to address is the method in which this site is run.  I don't feel that I understand Admin's actions at all.  I have had plenty of times in my life when I am stressed, but I would never react the same way.  Which is not really the issue, we are all different people.

What I am still completely confused about is why it is taking Admin so long to discuss these issues with the members of this site.  I know he said he would be taking a week off.  It's been a week, and I see no explanations.  This is not an issue that will merely go away, no matter how much we may wish otherwise.

I have never felt that Admin has explained his actions before this, and in most cases I don't feel that he's needed to.  But when a number of members are asking for a direct explanation, I don't feel that silence is appropriate.

I have now been to other forums on the net, and I am glad.  I enjoy those other places significantly more than I enjoy this forum.  When I come back (I have been reading this thread for some time now) there is an air of reluctance which I do not feel on other forums.  I don't know where I stand when I post here.  I don't know if the full moderation of these boards will be reinstated.  I don't even know if this post will see the boards until after I hit the submit button.

I am not trying to point fingers, or lay any sort of blame.  But when the situation becomes "Us vs Them", I prefer to find somewhere else to post.  And like it or not, there are definitely (at least) three sides to this argument.  People who side with Admin and his actions, people who disagree, and people who are neutral to the whole scenario.

And just to make sure everyone understands where I stand on the issue, I have been in strong disagreement with Admin's actions since I first heard about them.  Which is why my avatar remains "Gone".

I would love to see a "Kiss and make up" thread.  But at this point of the game the spark is gone for me.  I don't stay in relationships which cause me pain, nor do I post to forums I am uncomfortable with.

When I can no longer rationally discuss a topic without being flamed, I leave.  And think about it.  We had a long discussion about one of the most controversial subjects in history:  religion.  And where people did step out of line, they promptly apologized and we continued to speak rationally.  And yet we cannot discuss simple certification tests without resorting to name calling.

I apologize for the length of this thread, and the rambling contained therein.  But since I feel that this is my last post here, I wanted to make sure I cover everything.


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## evildan (Jun 17, 2002)

Congratualtions on your first Father's Day testuser.

I also am a father, and I agree 100%. My son woke up every two hours screaming for food. That's every 2 hours, everyday, for at least two weeks.

I wasn't sure what year I was in when the weeks were finally over.


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## edX (Jun 17, 2002)

i agree testy. and that's with a normal, healthy child. we all know that mindy had some complications and that their daughter syndi (sp?) was touch and go for a while. It will be a while before that kind of threat will fully be in the past.

btw mindy - add me to the list of those wishing you the best as a new mom and hoping for the continued good health of your daughter. Maybe someday you will be able to tell her about the hubbub she was indirectly involved in when she was born and laugh with her about it.  I can hear it now - about the time that Scott tells her she can't go on a date with a 16 yo boy and she swears he hates her. "Honey, your father loves you very much. when you were born he was so worried about you that he..........and i assure you that hasn't changed. He still worries about you."


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## Paragon (Jun 17, 2002)

Reading this thread really makes me sad. I've been a member of this site for some time now. Although I haven't posted as much as the most of you I read almost every thread, posting only when I felt the need to. This is one of those times.

The reason that reading this thread makes sad is that I feel a lot of people got hurt personally and the words were written in anger. I think that if you want to comment on somebody's post there is no need start calling each other names and what not. Now I'm not taking sides in this, I think all sides got pretty hurt from all the reply's written.
I also feel that we as a community lost some very good people, and I will miss reading your post's. I can't help but feel that we have all lost a little these last couple of day's.

My thanks goes out to Ed who seemed to get this a little under control and steered it in the right direction.

Please excuse my english, it's sometimes hard to express your feelings in another language.


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## Wedge (Jun 17, 2002)

Thanx testuser! I'm going to start reading it tonight. I think I'll also get an iMac (old one). I didn't want to because they looked hard to open up and you can't upgrade them, but they are sort of in my price range and would let me start working with OS9 and OSX.

Thanx again for the link!


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## edX (Jun 17, 2002)

wedge - i suggest you be sure you get at least a 400 mhz. 600+ would be better. and you can upgrade the most important thing for osx - ram. I think you'll be impressed.

back to the tests - i don't know if this info would be needed for the certification or not, but knowing about where it exists would be a useful thing to know - MacTracker  contains the following info:

"Mactracker provides detailed information on every Apple Macintosh ever made, including items such as processor speed, memory, upgrade, and expansion options. Also included is information on Apple monitors, printers, scanners, digital cameras, Newtons and versions of the Mac OS. 

Mactracker also gives you the ability to save your own custom notes to each system window. To keep you up-to-date, a built-in update engine is included making sure your database is the most current one available."

It seems that this would be a valuable reference tool for anyone doing mac tech work of any kind. Apple used to keep a database like this as well. I don't know if they've keep it updated or not.


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## dsnyder (Jun 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ed Spruiell _
> *Apple used to keep a database like this as well. I don't know if they've keep it updated or not. *



http://www.info.apple.com/applespec


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## googolplex (Jun 19, 2002)

I think we should all stop trying to avoid this issue, that includes you, Ed. I like being nice in debates and keeping things calm. But really if you excuse me.

Where oh where is Admin?? All of the things that have happened resulted from his actions. Maybe becoming a father results in extremist controlling thoughts, I wouldn't know I don't think I'll know for a while. But really, I've come to notice this. Scott doesn't talk to us. He posted a sub-part 'appology' to us right before he took his time off, and we haven't heard anything since then. Where is he? This is his site, I would think he would have interest in making things better around here.

Anyways come out and talk to us. Maybe then people would regain some respect. Don't hide from the problems that you have created.

Wow I'm really taking all sides of this issue here


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## Wedge (Jun 24, 2002)

thanx again testuser, that was very helpful. the only think it was missing was picture of some of the parts. but this place had lot of pics of macosx, so that made up for it.


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## Ricky (Jul 26, 2002)

I finally see what happened to nkuvu, and why I didn't see him anywhere on the forums...

So long, Wonder Tortoise...


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