# Donation Drive



## ScottW (Feb 8, 2005)

I just wanted to thank each of you who donated again. What an awesome group of people we have here. I know that some people may question the method to my madness of closing the site down for a few days or having this odd scheduling, but honestly, we raised more yesterday than the previous 30 days put together.

It is the success that make it worth while. On this round, even those who donated where affected by the donation drive. So, those who are don't wish to particiate in that area or can't for whatever reason aren't left out.

Here's to a good hear. Take care.


----------



## Sogni (Feb 8, 2005)

I wonder if a simple nag screen would be enough without pissing people off causing them to leave. 

You are right, I for one do not understand the method to your madness, and frankly refuse to support it. I'm amazed others do (did).


----------



## Satcomer (Feb 8, 2005)

I don't agree with Sogni, but I can see where he's coming from.  The sad fact is running a web site takes money. I just don't like the heavy handed approach but I do understand it.  Maybe Scott you could start by making the rounds on some other Mac sites. Maybe you should try pointing out the web site and forums on YourMacLifeor Inside Mac Radio.


----------



## Darkshadow (Feb 8, 2005)

How much did you get up to, Scott?


----------



## ScottW (Feb 8, 2005)

I'll give updates at the close of this day. This is the last day of the donation drive.


----------



## ElDiabloConCaca (Feb 8, 2005)

While I agree that donations are a good thing for users to do for a website they frequently visit and find useful, think of the new users that won't make a trip back here because their first experience was a "forced donation" page and wouldn't allow them access to the site.

I think a nag screen, banner, or nag entry page would be a better idea while allowing the site to still function, but I'm sure we've all got our own ideas on how best to implement a donation drive.

Running a website takes money -- that's a given; however, when the site is shut down because of a donation drive, that seems to me more like assessing a membership fee rather than a donation drive.

I hope you make your goal, and I'd donate if I could, but all I can offer at this point in time is knowledge and help.  Good luck, and thanks for all the years of great macosx.com'ing!


----------



## Viro (Feb 8, 2005)

Truth be told, my initial reaction to the temporary site closure was one of utter annoyance. I actually looked into the possibility of visiting other sites with forums, like Spymac etc. Just do a Google search for Mac forums and you'll see loads of other forums.

However, most of the other forums don't have as many members as Macosx.com does. Plus I'm not familiar with the posters and there just isn't doesn't seem to be the kind of helpfulness that you find on these boards. It also helps that I'm more familiar with the users on these boards and enjoy reading the posts by people like ElDiabloConCaca, bobw, Zammy-Sam, Randman, Cheryl and many other frequent posters. I've learnt loads from these guys and girls. 

Keeping all that in mind, it would be a shame to see macosx go to waste. Thus, I donated. So please Scott, easy on the hard handed tactics. They do more to hurt the community than help it survive. Other options like a nag page would be preferable.


----------



## applewhore (Feb 8, 2005)

I'd have donated again this year, but you only allowed payments by PayPal, and I'm not able to use PayPal in Dubai...

Sorry...


----------



## Mephisto (Feb 8, 2005)

I donated.  In all honesty I would not have donated if not for the inconvenience though, at least not yet.  I have not been coming here long enough to decide whether I am here to stay or not.  Left to my own devices I probably would have donated in 3-4 months if I were still around.  So I guess in that sense the annoying tactic worked, or at least sped up the process.


----------



## ScottW (Feb 8, 2005)

I have found that no matter which direction I look, someone isn't going to like it. Classification of the board closure as "hard tactic" I don't feel is accurate. Think of Tele-thons, Radio-Thons... they stop normal broadcasting to take time out, sometimes for a whole week to raise donations. It is not something that is ideal, but it is really the only thing that works.

My experience is that taking a few days out of the year to raise donations does not impact anything, the few users it "might" turn away is made up for in donations which make this site available to the community at large.

Far MORE people have donated than have complained, so considering that, I think this year was a good success.


----------



## Decado (Feb 8, 2005)

i donated. mostly out of shame cuz i didnt donate last time.
what's the site policy about ads? i have seen a few, but maybe there could be more (they dont annoy me if they are within context).


----------



## Viro (Feb 8, 2005)

I guess I can see your point. But it's still quite a hard tactic to play. So long as it doesn't kill the community that's been built up around macosx.com, I'm all for donations.


----------



## ora (Feb 8, 2005)

Being in the UK, and with the exchange rate so favorable at the moment, I felt i had to donate -  i suspect the money i gave will go a lot further for scott than me. Given how often i visit the site and how much help i've got here, paying a few quid every year is pretty painless.

Also, on the advert front, macosx.com, thanks to Pith Helmet, has mostly been advert free for me. 

Once again, thanks scott,

ora


----------



## ScottW (Feb 8, 2005)

Unless we get a $26 donation, we won't meet our "Today Goal" of $850. But, no matter the out come, business as usual tomorrow. Thank you all for your patience, understanding and contributions.


----------



## MBHockey (Feb 8, 2005)

Grr.  I have been spending my dad's money left and right so far this semester (text books alone cost me over $500, and my circuits teacher just informed me i have to purchase a circuits kit for $42 and a lab notebook for $20).  I don't know what i'm going to tell my dad, i have $8 in my account right now.

Over the summer when i'm working (i can't now because school and hockey is enough as it is) i will definitely donate to this site.  I have found this forum extremely useful, and would love to help you guys out, but i simply can't at the moment.


----------



## Viro (Feb 9, 2005)

Whoa.... $500 for textbooks for a semester? That is a *lot* of money. What kind of course are you doing?


----------



## Natobasso (Feb 9, 2005)

The forced donation was pretty silly when a lot of us donate when given just the slightest nudging

Maybe you should consider having a paypal link in the sidebar so people can donate throughout the year instead of "when it's time"? I think you might find you won't have to shut the site down.

My best example is National Public Radio. They delay some content with the pledge drives, but they don't go to dead air either. 

Conclusion: Don't go to dead air again like you did because it is annoying. But I'm still happy to support this site.


----------



## MBHockey (Feb 9, 2005)

Viro said:
			
		

> Whoa.... $500 for textbooks for a semester? That is a *lot* of money. What kind of course are you doing?



I'm a mechanical engineering major, and because a lot of us don't opt to sell back our books at the end of each semester (we like to keep them as reference tools for the future) it is next to impossible to get cheaper, used text books like many other majors can get.


----------



## g/re/p (Feb 9, 2005)

I also encountered the "site shutdown" and i think it was in *very* poor taste.

I would have donated in response to a more friendly, less "in-your-face" promotion or request.


----------



## bobw (Feb 9, 2005)

> I would have donated in response to a more friendly, less "in-your-face" promotion or request.



There's been a button on the pages for awhile;

*Make a Donation* *Support us for 2005*

That seems pretty friendly


----------



## Sogni (Feb 9, 2005)

g/re/p said:
			
		

> I would have donated in response to a more friendly, less "in-your-face" promotion or request.



Ditto.
My feelings exactly! 
Reason why last year, instead of donating - I (and others) left in disgust.  
I would have donated to a friendlier request. 

I consider myself "gone" again as of the repeat of this stunt - I'm just voicing my feelings about it this time instead of just disappearing again to hopefully get the message across that *THIS IS NOT THE RIGHT WAY TO DO IT!*

It's not like this is the ONLY / BIGGEST / BEST Mac Forum out there...  

It's just sad that it's killed the community feeling... at least for me and some others I know.
But then again, it's all about money - not the people, I guess.


----------



## JPigford (Feb 9, 2005)

Why don't you make use of vB3's subscription system and let people pay a monthly/yearly fee to have extra features? Like $50 per year get's you a bigger avatar, a longer signature, one free tech support incident or something...i don't know. But I think that's a lot less annoying and a lot more practical.


----------



## bobw (Feb 9, 2005)

Saying you would have donated to a more friendly request is crap. Everyone saw the Donation button on all the pages, but you chose NOT to make a donation.


----------



## g/re/p (Feb 9, 2005)

bobw said:
			
		

> Saying you would have donated to a more friendly request is crap. Everyone saw the Donation button on all the pages, but you chose NOT to make a donation.



Well, i will never donate to this site because of the shutdown stunt - *it* WAS crap!


----------



## bobw (Feb 9, 2005)

No one was being forced to make a donation, just given the option. The site doesn't run for free. Some people that find the site useful, may want to make a donation, others, not.

But I guess you won't having any problem coming here when you need some help.


----------



## g/re/p (Feb 9, 2005)

I tend not to feel much guilt about not donating to a site that has
become as commercial as this site appears to have become.


----------



## g/re/p (Feb 9, 2005)

bobw said:
			
		

> No one was being forced to make a donation, just given the option. The site doesn't run for free. Some people that find the site useful, may want to make a donation, others, not.
> 
> But I guess you won't having any problem coming here when you need some help.



On sites like this, I pretty much help other people much 
more than i ask for help myself - so when i do need help, 
i certainly do not feel obligated to donate because of it.


----------



## JPigford (Feb 9, 2005)

g/re/p said:
			
		

> I tend not to feel much guilt about not donating to a site that has
> become as commercial as this site appears to have become.


What are you talking about? Commercial? They don't even have advertising minus that freeminimacs.com banner and I wouldn't even consider that "advertising."


----------



## g/re/p (Feb 9, 2005)

JPigford said:
			
		

> What are you talking about? Commercial? They don't even have advertising minus that freeminimacs.com banner and I wouldn't even consider that "advertising."




http://www.macosx.com/

had your eyesite checked lately?


----------



## bobw (Feb 9, 2005)

g/re/p

You do help others here quite a bit, and no one has asked you personally to donate. It's a general request for anyone that wants to donate. Anyone that doesn't want to donate, doesn't have to. No one should feel obligated to donate.

A lot of people come here for help, that would otherwise cost them money, some feel they want to donate, others don't, and that's fine. But, the site needs money to run.

And this site isn't anywhere close to being a Commercial site.

http://www.macosx.com - isn't a forum page. It's offering services from Macosx.com to help with the site costs. Scott doesn't make a living from this venture.


----------



## JPigford (Feb 9, 2005)

g/re/p said:
			
		

> http://www.macosx.com/
> 
> had your eyesite checked lately?


Actually yes, I went to the eye doctor last week.

I've never thought of macosx.com as just a forum. I was first introduced to it as a "tech support" site that happend to have an active community.


----------



## bobw (Feb 9, 2005)

No name calling, or the post will be deleted.


----------



## Sogni (Feb 9, 2005)

Bobw, I mean a "nag screen" asking for donations.

And for those who somehow missed all the ads, look at my attachment. I highlighted them and placed red text next to them. 
I just noticed that google ad is gone. Weird.


----------



## Sogni (Feb 9, 2005)

JPigford said:
			
		

> I've never thought of macosx.com as just a forum. I was first introduced to it as a "tech support" site that happend to have an active community.



It was the other way around when I joined. 
A Mac community that contributed by helping eachother out. 

I used to think I contributed by helping others out as much, if not more than I asked for help. 

Oh well...


----------



## JPigford (Feb 9, 2005)

Sogni said:
			
		

> And for those who somehow missed all the ads, look at my attachment. I highlighted them and placed red text next to them.
> I just noticed that google ad is gone. Weird.


I think some people have their mind set on the fact that it's possible to have an ad free world when in actuality there's no way...life isn't free. I think macosx.com's use of what you call "ads" is the most un-intrusive way of advertising I've ever seen and you should be grateful and instead of whining.


----------



## Sogni (Feb 9, 2005)

Sogni said:
			
		

> And for those who somehow missed all the ads, look at my attachment. I highlighted them and placed red text next to them.
> I just noticed that google ad is gone. Weird.



Just to make myself clear - I am NOT complaining about the ads or donation button (hey, make money however you can _without interrupting the site_). I'm just pointing them out.


----------



## ScottW (Feb 9, 2005)

Okay.. I *LOVE* these discussions....

Let's see.... in past years, I have setup "nag" screens that come up every 15 page views or so asking for donations (granted, only for a few days) and boy, did I get the heat on that. If ONLY I had put a "donate now" or had WARNED people it was coming, they would have felt much better about that.

So, the following year I make a big TODO about WARNING everyone it was coming up, giving people the option to meet our goals or risk the site shutting down for a few days. I even gave those who donated the option of visiting the board or those who did donate, never saw a closed board. Once again, that didn't work and we did shut it down for 48 hours or so to take in donations.

So, this year, I thought... okay... everyone complained the last time, let's do something different. Instead of showing FAVORITISM to those who donated, the  board would just be shut down except for specific hours in the day, to help raise funds. This way, you still have the ability to browse the board and post during specific hours, and other hours we run the donation drive. This method seems to be best IMHO. Like someone posted earlier in this thread, the Public Broadcasting Network didn't just go dead air, but did a donation drive and aired SOME regular programming.

BUT... AGAIN, the whiners come out in force. IF ONLY I had money, IF ONLY you had notified me, IF ONLY you had whispered sweet nothings in my ear... THEN I WOULD HAVE FELT BETTER ABOUT IT ALL.

The truth is... the facts speak for itself. You can't deny that...

From December 26th - Feb 7, $330 where brought in by the TOP OF THE PAGE donation button. In TWO DAYS during our donation drive, we brought in $494.

Those who don't like it, can leave. If the kitchen is too hot, then get out. 

Of course, people will be upset that I "think" that way. How can I think that way they say. Should I be bowing down before them, whispering sweet nothings in their ear for the wonderful mature presence they bring to the board.



Gotta love appreciative people. But one thing is certain... there is nothing new under the sun.


----------



## Jeffo (Feb 9, 2005)

When i opened the site and saw it was closed due to fund raising i closed the page and tried the next day.  I would have considered to help out, but you have ad space on the site, which i am assuming you sell.  I could be wrong about that, but that is why i did not donate.  I am not going to pay to look at an ad.


----------



## MBHockey (Feb 9, 2005)

ScottW said:
			
		

> BUT... AGAIN, the whiners come out in force. IF ONLY I had money...



I'm assuming this is in reference to my post, as i didn't read any others saying they simply didn't have money.  I would have hoped you read the entire post (and following few), but either way this comment still kinda hurts.  

It saddens me how you throw the people who don't have money to donate in with people who simply don't want to...


----------



## brianleahy (Feb 9, 2005)

I want to voice my support for your donation drive.  

It's amazing how people become so accustomed to getting valuable things for free that they start to feel entitled, and even become angry when either the freebies go away (even temporarily) or when they are asked to pay for them.   I catch myself doing it too; getting angry with a delayed update to a free site or some such.  

It's true enough that the community spirit here is a big part of its value, but spirit don't keep the lights turned on.   I don't grudge PBS their pledge drives, and they aren't half as useful as this site.


----------



## Randman (Feb 9, 2005)

See Scott, once again, you just don't get it.
  People are not complaining about donating and helping the site. They're complaining about the manner in which you did it. A manner that seems heavy-handed. So, instead of following your usual tack, consider it feedback for the next time out.

 It should say something that people who signed up in 2001 and 2002 and whatnot have issues, but people who signed up just last month as trying to defend this practice. So, instead of reacting with your usual taunts, take it as constructive criticism. It'll do you and this forum a whole lotta good.


----------



## ScottW (Feb 9, 2005)

Hockey... sometimes it's hard to hear good thing among the complaints. I'd rather people just say, thanks for the site, than tell me they don't have money. Saying "I don't have money", although thruthful and conveys a message, it is negative. By saying, "Thanks for the site, keep up the good work" is a positive message.

I *HATED* any type of on-air fundraising, radio or TV when I was younger. I despised when my favorite station, spent a week screwing up normal programming to raise donations. Of course, I did NOT donate, I turned to a different station and went on with life until the got done.

I then had the opportunity to WORK at that station, none-the-less and participated in the fund drives and saw that behind the scenes, it takes thousands upon thousands of dollars a month just for electricity for fire up a 100,000 watt FM transmitter. I know that everyone ran on the bare essentials in pay (minimum wage) and that the equipment in the station was old and so-so. 

I had a new appreciation for sites that require donations and people who do. I now gladly give money, not out of guilt, shame... but beause I get something in return. If I can't give, I will say, keep up the  good work!

I hate asking for funds... I wish that it grew on trees in my back yard and I wouldn't have to worry about it. I wish that Google Ads paid more than 10-30 cents per day to run on my site, but do the math, that isn't a whole lot. I wish there was a market like their was in 1998-1999 for banner ads.

We are NOT a big site, compared to other Mac sites. We don't have the marketing power to drive a banner driven site. We don't have the financial power to promote ourselves. But, one thing is for sure... we continue to upgrade the servers to bring a better experience, get more bandwidth to help with the same thing, and try and provide a nice clean site for everyone to enjoy.


----------



## ScottW (Feb 9, 2005)

Randman,

Actually, I do get it. But what you and others who complain about the "manner" don't get, even when the facts are presented in front of you, that it is the ONLY manner that accomplishes a given goal. So, come 2006, we will have a repeat performance of this very discussion.


----------



## Randman (Feb 9, 2005)

I haven't complained. I just said you should take comments, good and bad, with a grain of salt.


----------



## g/re/p (Feb 9, 2005)

Hey - i guess i was being a jerk again - sorry about that.
I probably will donate to the site sometime in the near 
future - but i still think the shutdown thing was kind of rude(hehe)

BTW - this is a very good mac site, and i do appreciate
its presense on the 'net!


----------



## g/re/p (Feb 9, 2005)

You Made A Payment
Secure Transaction*

Payment Information

You have sent a secure payment of $20.00 USD for the items below.*This credit card transaction will appear on your bill as "PAYPAL *DGTLCROWD".*You will receive an email receipt for this transaction shortly. 

Amount:
$20.00 USD

Shipping & Handling:
$0.00 USD

Item Number:
15004

Item Title:
macosx.com donation


Quantity:
1

Total Amount:
$20.00 USD





Contact Information





Business Name:

DigitalCrowd

Contact Email:

support@digitalcrowd.com

Contact Phone:

800


----------



## g/re/p (Feb 9, 2005)




----------



## bobw (Feb 9, 2005)

Wow, and thanks.


----------



## g/re/p (Feb 9, 2005)

I am a man of action! (grin)


----------



## Natobasso (Feb 9, 2005)

ScottW said:
			
		

> We are NOT a big site, compared to other Mac sites. We don't have the marketing power to drive a banner driven site. We don't have the financial power to promote ourselves. But, one thing is for sure... we continue to upgrade the servers to bring a better experience, get more bandwidth to help with the same thing, and try and provide a nice clean site for everyone to enjoy.



Well, I'm not sure how many members there are, but since the inception of the internet marketing is less money driven and even more people driven. Look at great bands, sites or products that we all happen to hear about just because of some darn email blast 

We have a better situation here: Passionate Missionaries, if you will, and we all enjoy this site and tell our friends. I've suggested this before, but why don't we have more banner ads? We get local companies on a site like this who appreciate receiving 100 new web customers a year who might generate $1000.00 of revenue (just being modest in my estimate) on stuff we need to buy like printer ink or new computers.

Not only that, but we don't have to pay electricity for a 100,000 watt transmitter. The costs of this site, while unknown to me, I would assume are MUCH less than running a Public TV Station.

Scott, I think you have a huge untapped resource here if you'd just recruit us to help. I do graphics. I'd do free graphics for this site, for example. The list goes on to any other members here with particular skills.

Instead of shutting down the site, let's figure out what needs to be done and see if we can prove the adage, "many hands make light work."


----------



## Darkshadow (Feb 9, 2005)

Heh, good turn around, grep. 

Scott, I don't usually pipe up in these sorts of conversations, but I'll say that I understood it all and didn't find it _too_ annoying.  There's no way not to find something like that somewhat annoying, as you yourself already said, but it wasn't something that I couldn't live with, nor did I find it heavy handed.

Although I laughed when I saw it - I had just donated probably less than a day before it popped up.  I have a weird sense of humor. 

And for everyone complaining - _*grow up*_!  It lasted _two days_.  Sheesh.  And it wasn't even *totally* cut off during those two days.  You'd think it had lasted a month with total outage from some of these comments.  And it's not like Scott came around busting down the doors to your homes demanding money. 

There wasn't, and has never been, a point where Scott said "Pay up, or the site goes away."  It would be nice if it wasn't needed at all, but unfortunately, things cost money.  It's only done _once_ a year.  Some people need to take a reality check... would you pay out the butt for something and not ask for _some_ help in return?


----------



## Mephisto (Feb 9, 2005)

While I found the outage annoying I also recognize the need for such.  It is nice to think that banner ads or donations through the year would pay for the upkeep but this is quite often not the case. 

Again I am too new to pass judgement on the site but, for the most part, I like what I have seen from the community so far.


----------



## DanTekGeek (Feb 9, 2005)

I dont see why everyone is getting riled up about this. Money doesnt grow on trees, and I'd gladly spare a few bucks and a day or two without the forum for all of the knowladge and fun I get here.


----------



## Satcomer (Feb 10, 2005)

I bet I have you all beat!  

"This email confirms that you have paid DigitalCrowd $100.00 USD using
PayPal.

This credit card transaction will appear on your bill as "PAYPAL
*DGTLCROWD".


------------------------------
Payment Details:
------------------------------

Transaction ID: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Total: $100.00 USD"


note: This is all in fun.


----------



## Cheryl (Feb 10, 2005)

Satcomer, 

All in fun?  Not a nice joke. 

I had been meaning to click on that donation button, but just never got around to it. Scott's tactic worked as it made me do what I was meaning to do. 

You can't please all the people all the time.  And just reading some of the complaints, it is so true. 

The object was to put the need for donations in our face. And it worked for the most part. If you could not afford it, you were not forced to pay up, just forced to wait for when the site was up. A minor inconvenience. 

Now, can we all get back to what we are here for?


----------



## Viro (Feb 11, 2005)

Cheryl said:
			
		

> Now, can we all get back to what we are here for?



We're here for a reason?


----------



## Robn Kester (Mar 8, 2005)

brianleahy said:
			
		

> It's amazing how people become so accustomed to getting valuable things for free that they start to feel entitled, and even become angry when either the freebies go away (even temporarily) or when they are asked to pay for them.   I catch myself doing it too; getting angry with a delayed update to a free site or some such.



That's it exactly. You get used to something that was free and suddenly it costs money. Pow, you go into freak mode. Sure, there are other similar resources out there but if you like a place, you will want to come back

I have tried other forums of all kinds for all kinds of subjects over the last 10+ years and only a handful get me coming back.

Excellent case in point here. The Mac OS.

Remember when you could go down to your local Mac shop with a handful of floppies and use their machines to copy the latest version of Mac OS?

Remember the horror and outrage when Apple announced it was going to start charging for the Mac OS? People screamed, then got over it and realized it was not that bad of a deal, so they eventually started coughing up the cash.

I don't mind helping a site I find useful. Many of the best helpful sites out there are run by good people who do so of their own freewill and in their spare time. And many times these people pony up major money for hosting, bandwidth, and countless hours of their time so we have a place to rest our eyes when we need help or want to talk to like minds.

r


----------

