# iLife -- appears I'm screwed and must pay another $50?



## crawfordna (Jan 6, 2004)

I just bought a new PowerBook about 3 weeks ago, and the new iLife updates come out today.  From what I'm hearing (reading), I'm going to have to pay $50 to get my iPhoto update/iLife update?  I'm mainly an iPhoto user, I don't use iMovie, iDVD, and won't be using GarageBand.  So, I'm basically interested in the iTunes and iPhoto updates.

I'm going to have to spend $50 for minor, yet worthwhile updates to two of the five products that are offered in iLife?  I have to order online and provide shipping, and not receive until probably late January?  Can't download the product updates?  Upgrades are only for people who buy macs starting today?

That's somewhat frustrating to me.

I know it's a cheap suite of powerful applications, but c'mon, atleast let me upgrade individual apps that I use, not purchase the entire suite of products that I just bought three weeks ago.

Please tell me I'm misunderstanding something?

--Nick


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## fbp_ (Jan 6, 2004)

crawfordna said:
			
		

> I just bought a new PowerBook about 3 weeks ago, and the new iLife updates come out today.  From what I'm hearing (reading), I'm going to have to pay $50 to get my iPhoto update/iLife update?  I'm mainly an iPhoto user, I don't use iMovie, iDVD, and won't be using GarageBand.  So, I'm basically interested in the iTunes and iPhoto updates.
> 
> I'm going to have to spend $50 for minor, yet worthwhile updates to two of the five products that are offered in iLife?  I have to order online and provide shipping, and not receive until probably late January?  Can't download the product updates?  Upgrades are only for people who buy macs starting today?
> 
> ...



dont buy a new computer weeks before well known major product updates and bitch about not having them included?

 ::love::


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## cfleck (Jan 6, 2004)

right.  because everyone knew that they were going to be updating the ilife stuff.  don't be a jerk.

for what its worth, i'm think we all get that "must have the newest version" syndrome at some point or another.  just use what you have for a while.  it must not be too bad or you wouldn't use it in the first place.  i agree it sucks though.


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## monktus (Jan 6, 2004)

Hang on, I thought iPhoto and iMovie were free downloads like iTunes?


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## crawfordna (Jan 6, 2004)

fbp_ said:
			
		

> dont buy a new computer weeks before well known major product updates and bitch about not having them included?
> 
> ::love::



I bought a new computer for a new computer, not the suite of applications.  I bought the powerbook G4 because I knew no product update would occur at MWSF 2004 for this particular line, so I do follow your advice.  In any case, I don't buy new computers for the software that comes with them.  I agree it's not that big of a deal, just frustrating.


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## jocknerd (Jan 6, 2004)

We already have iTunes 4.2. Does this mean we won't be getting anymore updates to iTunes for free? Which means we won't be able to get any updates to the Music Store. Apple can't be this stupid or arrogant can they?

Don't care if iMovie is updated. I'm using FCE. And I'll pay for the upgrade on this. Don't care for GarageBand. I have no interest in producing my own music. Don't need iDVD. I've got an iBook. So this leaves me with only iPhoto. $49 to upgrade iPhoto? I'm sick of paying Apple $50 here and $50 there. Just bought Panther. I should get iLife for free. Just renewed my .mac account. God knows why. I don't use anything on it. I'm planning on getting a G5 in the next 3 or 4 months. Someone please tell me why I'm doing this if Apple is going to start charging us for everything. Hey, I hear Apple has a free browser called Safari. Oops. Better not say that too loud. Steve might announce an update for it at his next keynote for $49.




			
				crawfordna said:
			
		

> I just bought a new PowerBook about 3 weeks ago, and the new iLife updates come out today.  From what I'm hearing (reading), I'm going to have to pay $50 to get my iPhoto update/iLife update?  I'm mainly an iPhoto user, I don't use iMovie, iDVD, and won't be using GarageBand.  So, I'm basically interested in the iTunes and iPhoto updates.
> 
> I'm going to have to spend $50 for minor, yet worthwhile updates to two of the five products that are offered in iLife?  I have to order online and provide shipping, and not receive until probably late January?  Can't download the product updates?  Upgrades are only for people who buy macs starting today?
> 
> ...


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## ynotsmile (Jan 6, 2004)

"dont buy a new computer weeks before well known major product updates and bitch about not having them included?"

Who has time to learn and know of such things? I'm in the same boat, but I don't care about having the latest apps. Apple has a long history of screwing people who just bought systems, so this latest one comes as no surprise. The one thing I have learned about Apple over the years is to not expect anything more than a fraction of customer appreciation or loyalty. To access that fraction one must threaten legal action. Apple is a marketing machine that creates great products. They clearly do not care about their customers because they know that for every dissatisfied whining customer, they can always pick up another through their pompous, cliche-ridden advertisements.


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## brianleahy (Jan 6, 2004)

Well, iTunes 4.2 (the version included with iLife) is available for a free download.  Doesn't look like the others are though, as yet.


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## lonny (Jan 6, 2004)

They will be available as free downloads in the coming days!


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## monktus (Jan 6, 2004)

Woo!


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## brianleahy (Jan 6, 2004)

Last time they did this, everything *except* iDVD3 was downloadable -- too big to download, they said.

I'm betting this time it'll be Garage Band -- after all, it apparently installs from a DVD-ROM...


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## crawfordna (Jan 6, 2004)

This is what I read:
Pricing & Availability 
iLife 04 will be available on January 16 for a suggested retail price of $49 (US) through the Apple Store® (www.apple.com), Apples retail stores and Apple Authorized Resellers. The iLife 04 applications will also be included with all new Macs. An iLife Up-To-Date upgrade package is available to all customers who purchase a new Mac on or after January 6 that does not include iLife 04. The iLife Up-To-Date package is available for a shipping and handling fee of $19.95 (US). iTunes version 4.2 is currently available as a free download at www.apple.com.


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## cybergoober (Jan 6, 2004)

lonny said:
			
		

> They will be available as free downloads in the coming days!



Says

?


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## brianleahy (Jan 6, 2004)

I too am curious about Lonny's source on this information...


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## mfsri (Jan 6, 2004)

lonny said:
			
		

> They will be available as free downloads in the coming days!



I think if that was true it would be avalible to download now, not in a few days. Also, I think Steve Jobs would of mentioned that.


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## Cat (Jan 6, 2004)

Of course iTunes, iPhoto and iMovie updates will be available for free, don't be ridiculous. The whole point of the iLife suite is that it is a free, consumer oriented offering. You (probably) already have iTunes 4.2, which is a free download and the rest will probably be made available on the 16th. 
iDVD will not be made available for download: Steve said so last year because of the size.
GarageBand is even bigger, so that's what you pay for. 
If you just install iTunes, iPhoto and iMovie you need 250 MB, if you also install iDVD and GarageBand you need more than 4 GB. If you do not have the 'net backbone running through your backyard that's a lot of data. I know the installers are smaller than the installed programs, but I suppose GarageBand would be well over a gigabyte with all the loops and stuff.
$ 50,- sounds like a great price: it already costs as much and now they added GarageBand. It's a good deal. I hope they'll give a fair price in Europe, meaning not MORE than


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## ManosLondonUK (Jan 6, 2004)

I fully agree with the criticisms on the way Apple sometimes treats its loyal customers.


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## Studio Zero (Jan 6, 2004)

cfleck said:
			
		

> right.  because everyone knew that they were going to be updating the ilife stuff.  don't be a jerk.



It's been discussed for weeks.  Somebody call the waaaaaahmbulance for this guy.  Sorry, but I bought a G4 AlBook on 12/24 and do not expect to weasel iLife 4 as a freebie.  That's part of owning a computer.


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## wtmcgee (Jan 6, 2004)

i could see iPhoto, iTunes and iMovie being free, with iDVD and Garageband being the two you have to buy to get.  like last year.   if not, it's only 50 bucks for a bunch of killer apps.


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## mindbend (Jan 6, 2004)

I am always amazed at how upset people get when the product they just bought gets updated soon after. What were they expecting? Like that was the last version that would ever be made?

What should Apple do instead? Announce weeks or months ahead of time for every single product update so they can guarantee that the current inventory will not sell? Bad business.

Sure, it's annoying when we get bitten by the upgrade bug, but that's just the way it is. It happens on all platforms, all manufacturers, all developers all the time.

As for this thread title specifically, saying you're "screwed" is a bit harsh. First of all, not to be snooty, but $50 is a joke. A total bargain. Another $50 for that lineup is a steal. Think of it as paying $50 for Garage Band. And if you don't want Garage Band, then who cares?

I mean, if you weren't going to be satisfed with what you bought, when you bought it, then why'd you buy it!?



p.s. I also realize that not everyone alive knows when and where all the Apple expos are happening, but take this as a lesson learned. Never, ever buy any Apple product within earshot of one.


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## crawfordna (Jan 6, 2004)

Confirmed by CNet (They've been wrong before):

The iLife package, including GarageBand, iTunes, iDVD, iPhoto and iMovie, will cost $49 or will be free with new Macs, Jobs said. The company will no longer provide free downloads of iPhoto or iMovie, a strategy it seriously considered last year and that could anger some customers.

*shrug* I will conform.


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## octane (Jan 6, 2004)

Can everyone just stop panicking?

On the grand scheme of things, this isn't so important or bad that so much venom and spleen should vented across the forum.

Now everyone hold hands and chant after me .. hommmmm...


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## Stridder44 (Jan 6, 2004)

no kidding octane...heh


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## OmegaMan (Jan 6, 2004)

Perhaps i should mention to those who are eligable, that iLife '04 is available at the Apple Store Canada (Educational) for $39can!  Dunno what the us amount would be.

I know that not everyone is eligable, but hey...let's share the deals, eh?

I just ordered my 20gb ipod, ipod showcase and iLife through them a few mins ago.  :->


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## btoneill (Jan 6, 2004)

If you don't want to pay $50, then don't use it, use something else. It costs alot of money to develop applications, you can't expect them to be free always. People have been moaning and complaining about iPhoto and iMovie since the last update "it's too slow", "it doesn't sync audio right", etc. So, what does Apple do, they fix all the issues, and add in most all the features users have been begging for. And now what do people do? They complain that they have to actually _pay_ for the application now. The same people who are complaining about having to pay $49 are the same people who complained about the speed and needing feature Y in their previously free application. So, Apple gave you what you asked for, but they now want you to pay for it, oh no, a company actually wants to "sell" a product, they are really screwing their customers by actually selling something they paid their people to develop. No one is making you upgrade. Apple is not removing your ability to run the old version.

People really need to find something better to complain about then a commerical company actually charging someone for a piece of software that they spent their money to develop. What are you going to complain about next, Walmart not giving you a free DVD player?

Brian


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## serpicolugnut (Jan 6, 2004)

Log in as a student and get it for $29. Apple doesn't require any verification.

Or wait a couple of weeks, and Apple will probably release it for free to teachers, like they did the last version. Find a teacher and have him/her get it for you.


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## kingtj (Jan 6, 2004)

I just bought a new PowerBook 15" at Xmas-time, and I knew full-well that some new things would be announced at MacWorld Expo.  (I wasn't "in the know" enough to be sure it would be all new iLife updates - but it was a possibility.)  I guess anything's possible, but I feel pretty confident Apple will push free updates out for iMovie and iPhoto, at the very least.  (The new iLife boxed product isn't even supposed to be on store shelves for another couple weeks or so - so I don't see why there's any panic that we're not immediately seeing the updates available through "Software Update".  Give them a little time....)

Even if they don't, my thinking was along these lines:  GarageBand alone is *well* worth the $49 price of the suite.  Yeah, I know some of you won't ever use it - but as Jobs said, 50% of American homes have at least someone in them who plays musical instruments.  You've gotta at least know someone who would want GarageBand enough to buy your opened iLife off of you for a portion of your purchase price, if you resold it minus whatever CD you wanted the thing for (EG.  iPhoto)?

The only other guitar amp simulator program I've seen that runs on a Mac is "Amplitube", which costs at least double the price of iLife - and doesn't offer any other music-making capabilities other than amp simulators.

Accusing Apple of not caring about customer support is rather ridiculous.  How come Consumer Reports rates them #1 in customer satisfaction?  How long do you usually wait on hold to talk to someone at Apple when you need assistance?  Compare that to Dell, HP, or any of the other "big name" PC builders.  (For that matter, compare your conversation with Apple reps to the others when it comes to native language spoken.  I've had to hang up on Toshiba's reps before because their foreign accents were so thick, I couldn't understand them.  Call Dell and you get people in India.)  How many retail computer stores even offer anything resembling the "genius bar" for getting help with your hardware or software?

As for Apple advertising, if anything, I'm constantly amazed at how little time they spend telling people about the product features.  Nonetheless, their commercials are much more "memorable" than most, because they make an effort to be creative and clever/humorous.  (Everyone remembers the PowerBook 12" and 17" commercial - and they generates LOTS of interest based on it, despite never telling you a single thing about what speed they ran at, what software was bundled with them, or what was built into them!)
This doesn't really strike me as "pompous".




			
				ynotsmile said:
			
		

> "dont buy a new computer weeks before well known major product updates and bitch about not having them included?"
> 
> Who has time to learn and know of such things? I'm in the same boat, but I don't care about having the latest apps. Apple has a long history of screwing people who just bought systems, so this latest one comes as no surprise. The one thing I have learned about Apple over the years is to not expect anything more than a fraction of customer appreciation or loyalty. To access that fraction one must threaten legal action. Apple is a marketing machine that creates great products. They clearly do not care about their customers because they know that for every dissatisfied whining customer, they can always pick up another through their pompous, cliche-ridden advertisements.


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## monktus (Jan 7, 2004)

It's a shame that Apple are going to stop doing iMovie and iPhoto for free but as has been mentioned, we should be chuffed that we got them for free in the first place and that the upgrade (which includes iDVD and of course, GarageBand which looks like it is a bargain in itself) is only $50, or indeed $30 with edu discount. Be thankful that you're not paying the UK prices which are $68 and $52 respectively (exc. shipping).


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## ~~NeYo~~ (Jan 7, 2004)

I will probably buy the suite, only thing i am worried about is... The media it comes on. My G4 Cube only has a CDRW drive. I don't think the world had embraced DVD when G4 Cube's were in their Crib!  Do you know if Apple does CD versions or anything?!


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## Arden (Jan 7, 2004)

Look at it this way.  Garabe Band includes most of the features of Soundtrack, which costs $300 retail; many of the features of applications like Cubase and Logic, which cost anywhere from $200 to $800; and almost all the functionality of Amplitude Live, which is $130.  That means for Garage Band alone you're getting between $600 and $1200 worth of software for $50.  That's a damn fine deal, and that's just for Garage Band.

Or watch the keynote (again, possibly), and look for the part where Steve Jobs compares iLife to comparable non-suite programs.  For the money, you're getting software that should cost hundreds of dollars, if not thousands.


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## symphonix (Jan 7, 2004)

You thought iLife was worth the money when you bought it, and you were probably right. You'll still get the updates to the programs you purchased, all you miss out on is GarageBand.

Hey, when I bought my iBook nearly three years ago, I paid nearly double what the most expensive iBook costs now, for one quarter the storage capacity and one half of the processor speed (not to mention only an 8mb video card). Do I feel that Apple has ripped me off, that they "owe me one" now that they're offering a better product? Of course not. That was the best they could offer at that time, and I was happy to pay for it.


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## bookem (Jan 7, 2004)

~~NeYo~~ said:
			
		

> I will probably buy the suite, only thing i am worried about is... The media it comes on. My G4 Cube only has a CDRW drive. I don't think the world had embraced DVD when G4 Cube's were in their Crib!  Do you know if Apple does CD versions or anything?!




The Cube came with DVD-ROM (like mine) or CD-RW (like yours).    

You could always fit an MCE or OWC SuperDrive.


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## bbloke (Jan 7, 2004)

Just thought I'd add my two cents.     

I have somewhat mixed feelings about iLife.  To give you some idea of my background, I am about the only person I know in my area who always buys their software (rather than getting things pirated), would only use shareware that I'd pay for, and does not download MP3s illegally.  I'm definitely not being self-righteous, I just want to illustrate that I do indeed live by my feeling that software is a product like anything else and should be paid for.  Just because it is not tangible like a house or a car or a TV does not mean it should automatically be free, as a lot of development work goes into these products.

Whenever Apple has released totally new software and said we'd have to pay for it, I've always thought: "fair enough."   I do not expect Apple's software to be free, as they invest time and money in creating their products.  What does bother me though, whether rightly or wrongly, is when an existing "free" product is no longer free.  I suppose I'm also bothered because there is a history of this, rather than it being a one-off event.

I remember QuickTime Player being able to edit movies many years ago, for instance.  Then Apple shifted those features into QuickTime Pro, which you had to pay for.  Though this bugged me, I did at one stage buy a licence for QT Pro, and then shortly afterwards the new version of QT came out, and of course the licence was not transferable, so I'd have to pay up again if I wanted those features (I didn't bother).  Now with QT, you also have to pay extra on top for an MPEG-2 module.  Then there was of course the whole iTools/.Mac issue.  I think if Apple had continued with the iTools accounts for free but added a .Mac service which was greatly enhanced, but you had to pay for it, I would not have been concerned one bit.  But as things stood, it *felt*, rightly or wrongly, like something was being taken away from me, rather than a new service being offered.

With the OS X updates, I have mixed feelings.  The OS has been greatly improved over time and a lot of new features have been added, a minor updates along the way have been included for free.  So in one sense it seems fair enough to pay for major updates to the system, but in another way it becomes quite expensive.  I know people will say "don't upgrade then," but manufacturers will also of course apply pressure to consumers to upgrade (for instance by making new applications only run under the most recent OS, or whatever).  The computing world moves quickly, so I think no one can realistically expect to get away with not updating for long periods (years) and I guess that is just life.  But perhaps the issue here is the *frequency* of perceived "required" updates.  If major expenditure on updates occurred every, I don't know, five years or so, people would not complain as much.  If major updates occur incredibly frequently, say every few months or each year, people will start to grumble about the expense and question whether or not these more frequent updates should be free... depending on how major the update is!

Then we have the iApps.  When iTunes, iPhoto, and so on were released for free, I was very pleased.  It seemed to be one of the benefits of being a Mac user.  When iLife first came out, I was a little disappointed, as it felt (again, rightly or wrongly) like a ruse to get us to pay for something that used to be free, saying iDVD was too big to download.  I partly agreed, as iDVD is huge, but then again I have downloaded huge files in the past too (OK, though a bit smaller).  So, I did not buy iLife.  Fair enough, it was my decision.  Now, if iLife '04 really will not be available as separate, free downloads, I will be a bit more concerned.  Again, this would feel like something has been "taken away," whether or not it really has.  This is the funny thing...  $49 for GarageBand alone?  Sounds a decent deal!  Looking at the whole iLife collection: it really does seem like a bargain!  But then... it is the fact of now being told the next update for something that used to be free will cost me something (and I'm not likely to use GarageBand ever, so it's really a case of whether I want to pay for the other updates to my existing software).  I think this is what has the psychological effect to it.

I assure you there is no anger in this post, I'm more "just thinking out loud" about why these matters get people so hot under the collar.  Myself?  I feel torn with regards to these issues.  It seems fair enough to pay for major updates and for totally new software, but when (in general, not just with respect to one particular product) the updates become frequent, there is sometimes pressure to upgrade (sometimes, but not always), and/or when a free product is no longer freely available, I think it understandably causes murmurings, as people begin to feel (once again: rightly or wrongly) that something has been "taken away" and that the consumer loyalty begins to be taken for granted in the pursuit of greater profits.  I don't have strong feelings on the issue and I'm not attacking either point of view, but I guess I do feel a bit "niggled away at" by the slowly increasing costs.  Another issue is that these updates are more expensive in the UK than in the USA, so the costs are higher for me each time, and that will obviously affect my views on the topic of paid updates.  Anyway, I'm not having a rant in the slightest and I'm not wanting to fan any flames.  I just wondered whether this explains the strong feelings involed in people each time something like this occurs.   

Erm, sorry this turned out to be so long... !


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## gwynarion (Jan 7, 2004)

Two things.

(1.) Before reading this thread I had never heard that the size of the program was what kept iDVD from being offered as a download.  If that were the case then Apple would stick it on a CD and sell it for $10.  The reason I had always heard was the licenses that Apple had to buy to include certain functions in the program.  I remember reading where Steve (or someone else at the company) said that the reason iDVD came free with Macs that shipped with a SuperDrive was because the cost of the licenses was built into the cost of the hardware option, so to distribute the program away from the hardware they had to charge for those licenses.

(2.) I've been using iPhoto since it came out, and for the first year or so was pretty happy with it.  Then it became so slow and difficult to work with (because of the size of my Library) that it stopped being fun, though I continued to use it.  A serious upgrade to iPhoto is one of the things that I have been looking for most from Apple for the last year.  Now that it is here I am delighted.  Of course I would hope that the upgrade would be available for free, but if it isn't I'm not going to complain.  I would probably pay the $49 for it alone, though I wouldn't like it much.  What I see as a big bonus is getting GarageBand for the same $49.  I have no use for iMovie or iDVD and I'm positive that iTunes will continue to be free so I'm really only buying the two programs I use.  And that's fine with me.  Apple has provided some great, free software for a number of years and now they're saying [probably] that they can't do so any longer and still provide the same quality.  I can totally understand that.


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## octane (Jan 7, 2004)

bbloke said:
			
		

> Just thought I'd add my two cents.



Two cents indeed! If you're from the UK, it's your two penneth..

I have somewhat mixed feelings about iLife. To give you some idea of my background, I am about the only person I know in my area who always buys their software (rather than getting things pirated), would only use shareware that I'd pay for, and does not download MP3s illegally.[/QUOTE]

Totally agree with you, mate. I run my own business, I simply cannot afford to download dodgy software or music. My business relies on me being legit.

Also, from the music standpoint, the artists deserve their fee if you like their music, it's a simple as that. And the same applies to the legions of developers who bring the software to your desktop.

I'm also feeling a little frustrated with the; one-minute-it's-free-the-next-it's-gonna-cost-ye tactic that Apple keep pulling on us...


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## btoneill (Jan 7, 2004)

~~NeYo~~ said:
			
		

> I will probably buy the suite, only thing i am worried about is... The media it comes on. My G4 Cube only has a CDRW drive. I don't think the world had embraced DVD when G4 Cube's were in their Crib!  Do you know if Apple does CD versions or anything?!



Only iDVD and Garage Band ship on DVD's, iPhoto 3, iMovie 4, and iTunes 4 will be on CD's in iLife '04. You could always mount the DVD on another machine and access the files over the network if you want to install Garage Band on a non-DVD drive machine, or just connect an external firewire/usb dvd drive.

Brian


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## themacko (Jan 7, 2004)

I unfortunately don't have a DVD drive on my Mac so I'll have to copy GarageBand onto an external drive ... my biggest regret after purchasing my eMac was not getting a DVD-RW iMac (it would have been an extra $300) ... but I digress ... 

It is a bummer that iMovie and iPhoto are no longer available for free.  But you know what?  Oh well.  I personally don't mind Apple nickel-and-diming me to death if I'm still getting GREAT software and if it helps them keep their quality up and above anything Windows folks have access to.

I just wish I could have used my $20 .Mac renewal coupon for this....


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## Arden (Jan 7, 2004)

Actually, if you think about it, everyone can benefit from the inclusion of Garage Band, not just musicians.  All the other iLife applications require some sort of input on the user's part to be really usable.  Sure, you can get that input in iTunes built-in via the iTMS or the Internet radio stations, but iTunes has been around for years and is still free.  But the rest require input: iPhoto needs photos, iMovie needs a camcorder, and iDVD needs your finished movie (presumably from iMovie).

Garage Band is the only app that doesn't require input at all.  You could fire it up and start making output with only the built-in loops.  I've used Soundtrack, and if Garage Band's looping methodology is anything like Soundtrack's, then even young children can easily create music that sounds at least halfway decent.  Sure, you can also plug in your guitar or microphone and start recording, but the beauty is that you don't have to do that.  That means that anybody can fire up Garage Band and start fiddling, just for fun.  That way, Garage Band is probably the most accessible iApp right out of the box, unless you count the iTMS and radio stations.


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## btoneill (Jan 7, 2004)

octane said:
			
		

> I'm also feeling a little frustrated with the; one-minute-it's-free-the-next-it's-gonna-cost-ye tactic that Apple keep pulling on us...



They've done it so often now, it should be expected. Giving something away, getting users hooked on it, then charging for it is a great marketing system, it works, and it's used by 1,000's of companies. When I turned 18, I got a free Gillette razon in the mail, with 2 extra blades, in the store, the razor cost around $10, but I got it free in my mailbox, what a deal! Ofcourse, then I had to keep buying new blades, ofcourse I expected that, thats the whole reason they gave me the razor for free. I used to smoke, and the cigarette companies would always be giving out packs (back when they could before all the damn new advertising laws). They did it to get me hooked, then start charging me. Candy companies love to put free coupons in the paper when they come out with a new candy bar. They don't keep putting those coupons in tho.

As Apple always kept iMovie/iDVD/iPhoto as seperate packages, and not part of the OS itself, distributed seperately, people should have seen it coming. Now, if they took an application that is part of the standard OS install, say "Address Book", and started charging, then I could see people getting upset. Apple was originally going to stop downloads of iPhoto/iMovie when iLife first came out, but he changed his mind right before it was unveiled. The writing has been on the wall.

Brian


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## ikoiko (Jan 7, 2004)

Normally I have people pay for my 2 cents, but today I won't charge:

- I accept the software should be paid for, I wish it was a la cart ($20 per module, $49 for the whole thing...or whatever).
My point is this:
- I have 4 macs in my house, we share photos, songs, etc. I feel I should load ilife on each machine, not pay $200 for the house. I know this is a different issue, but still....


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## brianleahy (Jan 7, 2004)

Get the iLife family pack!!  Good for up to 5 macs, only $79. 

http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APP...1jMrjdjn533xp5Cu42QKcYuSM/1.3.0.5.10.3.1.13.0


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## bbloke (Jan 7, 2004)

btoneill said:
			
		

> They've done it so often now, it should be expected. Giving something away, getting users hooked on it, then charging for it is a great marketing system, it works, and it's used by 1,000's of companies.



...and other, "less legitimate" professions too.     

Whether or not it is a common tactic, it doesn't make the method feel any less "dirty" to the consumers though.  I don't think it would be good for Apple to get a reputation for being as dirty as the next company, screwing over its user base whenever it feels like it.  That *could* have a longer term effect of slowly decreasing the consumer loyalty that is frequently associated with Apple, if they continue down this avenue for a long period of time.   

(That's not an Apple-has-just-lost-a-customer statement, BTW    )




			
				btoneill said:
			
		

> As Apple always kept iMovie/iDVD/iPhoto as seperate packages, and not part of the OS itself, distributed seperately, people should have seen it coming. Now, if they took an application that is part of the standard OS install, say "Address Book", and started charging, then I could see people getting upset. Apple was originally going to stop downloads of iPhoto/iMovie when iLife first came out, but he changed his mind right before it was unveiled. The writing has been on the wall.



I'm not so sure of this.  Any new Mac will also come with these apps, but I believe iPhoto, iTunes, and iMovie were installed when I upgraded to 10.3.  I did a clean install (from a wiped drive) so if my memory is correct, it was only iDVD I had to install from my old disks.  If this is the case, then it gave more of a feeling of the iApps being part of "The System" in some ways.  After all, if both the Address Book and iMovie are installed whenever I get a new Mac or upgrade my OS, what's to stop me associating the iApps with the usual applications that are bundled, and believing these apps are to always be "freebies" to any Mac user from Apple?  This is part of the psychological effect I'm referring to.




			
				ikoiko said:
			
		

> - I have 4 macs in my house, we share photos, songs, etc. I feel I should load ilife on each machine, not pay $200 for the house. I know this is a different issue, but still....



From a check of the US Apple Store, it looks like you can get a family pack for $79.  That should make things a bit better.


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## Captain Code (Jan 7, 2004)

No one knows for certain until the 16th.  You can bet iTunes will be free.  You don't really think they'd charge you money to access the iTMS do you?


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## brianleahy (Jan 7, 2004)

iTunes 4.2 - the same version in iLife 04 - is _already_ available as a free download.


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## ikoiko (Jan 7, 2004)

Since you need a superdrive to use one of the four applications (idvd) and an dvd to use/load two of the applications (idvd and garageband)....they are really slimming down the audience for all this. I have a slot loading imac, two powerbooks....
The family pack is what i need, but this means $80 for iphoto/imovie.
But when I look at what they do...that is still a good deal....

dunno, in a quandry (iquandry)


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## RacerX (Jan 7, 2004)

First of all, why upgrade? Updates are small changes to a product, upgrades are usually not free.

No one is forcing anyone to buy.

Here is what you do... slowly lower your credit card, and place it on the table... and don't use it!

The end.

Why are some many people whining about having to buy something that they don't actually have to buy. If you don't have iLife '04 is your computer going to stop functioning? Are the current versions of your apps going to stop functioning?

Why is it so important that you have to buy something as soon as Apple releases it? Why is it such a big deal that they have advance the suite enough that they want to sell it (even at the incredibly small price which they are asking)?

First, control your impulse for buying at the drop of a hat. 

Second, if you got something for nothing, be happy, you already have that something for nothing. Don't cry at the fact that the next something (which you really don't need) isn't for nothing any more.

This thread is painfully pitiful.


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## btoneill (Jan 7, 2004)

bbloke said:
			
		

> ..
> I'm not so sure of this.  Any new Mac will also come with these apps, but I believe iPhoto, iTunes, and iMovie were installed when I upgraded to 10.3.



Wow, I just checked and I guess they did put iPhoto and iMovie on disk 2 of 10.3, it wasn't on my 10.2 disks.

So, I guess if you don't want to spend $50, wait till 10.4 comes up and get it with that? 

Brian


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## bbloke (Jan 7, 2004)

btoneill said:
			
		

> Wow, I just checked and I guess they did put iPhoto and iMovie on disk 2 of 10.3, it wasn't on my 10.2 disks.
> 
> So, I guess if you don't want to spend $50, wait till 10.4 comes up and get it with that?



(chuckle)


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## btoneill (Jan 7, 2004)

ikoiko said:
			
		

> Since you need a superdrive to use one of the four applications (idvd)



Actually, you can use iDVD on a computer without a superdrive now to create projects. After you're done, you can archive the project, then move it to a computer with a superdrive to burn. So, in theory you could make your own DVD's at home, visit a friend who has a superdrive, and burn on his computer.

Brian


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## btoneill (Jan 7, 2004)

RacerX said:
			
		

> This thread is painfully pitiful.



I know, but I'm like a deer in headlights, I just can't get away from it  Ofcourse, I also pulled out my credit card as soon as the Apple store was open after the keynote to place my iLife order, I just hope it arrives on the 16th  $50 was a bargain for now having the ability for my wife to view the 2700 photo's in iPhoto on my computer from her computer. She'll stop whining to me about printing the ones she wants, she can now do it herself. Hell, I think I would have paid $150 for that option alone 

Brian


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## RacerX (Jan 7, 2004)

btoneill said:
			
		

> $50 was a bargain for now having the ability for my wife to view the 2700 photo's in iPhoto on my computer from her computer. She'll stop whining to me about printing the ones she wants, she can now do it herself. Hell, I think I would have paid $150 for that option alone



Yes, but that was a meaningful upgrade for you. I was talking about people who buy for the sake of it being a higher version number or it being the "new" thing.


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## Arden (Jan 8, 2004)

I think Garage Band alone is worth at least double the price of iLife.  That would be justification enough for me getting it.


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## ~~NeYo~~ (Jan 8, 2004)

bookem said:
			
		

> The Cube came with DVD-ROM (like mine) or CD-RW (like yours).
> 
> You could always fit an MCE or OWC SuperDrive.



LOL. No thanks not @ the crazy prices they charge. I've spent more than enough on my Cube, I'd prefer to put good money toward a new system.


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## ~~NeYo~~ (Jan 8, 2004)

btoneill said:
			
		

> Only iDVD and Garage Band ship on DVD's, iPhoto 3, iMovie 4, and iTunes 4 will be on CD's in iLife '04. You could always mount the DVD on another machine and access the files over the network if you want to install Garage Band on a non-DVD drive machine, or just connect an external firewire/usb dvd drive.
> 
> Brian



Thanks for the info, thats interesting... I only have my Cube @ home, so thats kinda difficult. This is the only time i've ever needed DVD-ROM support - D'oh


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## applewhore (Jan 10, 2004)

RacerX said:
			
		

> First of all, why upgrade? Updates are small changes to a product, upgrades are usually not free.
> 
> No one is forcing anyone to buy.
> 
> ...


I don't think this is a wholly fair point of view!

Fine, maybe some people have older Macs and, as you put it, got "something for nothing".

However, the original poster, crawfordna, just bought a new PB in the last few months, and there was NO certainty that the iLife suite would be updated, as was so pithily pointed out by cfleck!

Up until now, iPhoto has been something that has been bundled with new computers, with free updates / upgrades (or whatever you want to call them) available...

Now Apple is going to charge for this.

I do understand crawfordna's frustration.  I don't use iMovie or iDVD (FCP and Toast instead) and I certainly won't use GrungeBand...

I've got the Adobe CS suite too (lucky boy, eh?), so I don't need iPhoto to edit photos, but it was initially a nice app to manage them...  until I introduced my library of pics!

There are tens of thousands of photos on my hard drive - I want to be able to access them easily - iPhoto was meant to do that, but after 1,000 everything stopped.  I have an easier time trying to wake my girlfriend up in the morning than trying to "scroll" (HA!) through my library of photos with iPhoto.

Steve obviously recognised this.  In his keynote, he specifically mentioned the fact that iPhoto wasn't designed with this number of photos in mind, but that digital photography had given rise to large photo libraries.

Given that, the ability to manage them sensibly seems more like an update to me than anything.

I'm having to use non-Apple apps to manage my pics now (Extensis Portfolio), but it really p***** me off that I can't use the stuff that Apple originally got me hooked on...

enough - rant over...

crawfordna - you have my sympathies!


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## RacerX (Jan 10, 2004)

applewhore said:
			
		

> However, the original poster, crawfordna, just bought a new PB in the last few months, and there was NO certainty that the iLife suite would be updated, as was so pithily pointed out by cfleck!



There is never any certainty when you buy computers or software. These are the facts of computing life, has been this way for a long time.

Given that, my point of view is completely fair.



> I'm having to use non-Apple apps to manage my pics now (Extensis Portfolio), but it really p***** me off that I can't use the stuff that Apple originally got me hooked on...



I use a non-Apple app for managing my pics too, Curator. I was using Curator before iPhoto, I had no reason to want iPhoto, I removed iPhoto every time it was installed on my systems. 

Come to think of it, I use a lot of non-Apple apps. I was using Watson before Sherlock 3, I had no reason to want Sherlock, I disliked Sherlock for pretty much the same reasons I disliked iPhoto (it is way too slow and doesn't function as nicely as the software I use). I was using OmniWeb long before Safari (since version 2.4 actually), I have no reason to want Safari since OmniWeb 4.5 was released, and OmniWeb 5 looks like it takes every thing I like about it a step further. I was using Acrobat before Preview, I had no reason to want to use Preview (other than for previewing images), Acrobat does everything I want... including editing PDFs.

On the other hand, some Apple apps I love. I love TextEdit, I've been using it as my primary word processor since I first used it in 1998. Mail has been a breath of fresh air for me, a nice mail app that just works. Address Book is another wonderful app. I love the fact that it shares it's abilities with a number of my other apps. 

If Apple started asking a fair price for any of the apps I love, I would pay it. I don't see iPhoto (alone, by itself) being over priced at $50. I don't see iMovie (alone, by itself) being over priced at $50.  I don't see iLife (the total suite) being over priced at $50. And I sure don't see where the original poster was _screwed_ by having the original versions that came with his system or by having to pay this small fee for the new versions.


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## applewhore (Jan 10, 2004)

RacerX said:
			
		

> There is never any certainty when you buy computers or software. These are the facts of computing life, has been this way for a long time.
> 
> Given that, my point of view is completely fair.
> 
> ...


RacerX

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one!

To my mind, the idea of making one's Mac "the centre of one's digital world" (or whatever the strapline was!) included the software that came with it...  (because it was!)

Now, however, it's not included.  So, you CAN make your Mac the centre of your digital world, but you've got to pay for it...  (not quite the same thing to me!)

You know what?  I don't particularly care about it from my own point of view...  I can afford (and prefer) the professional packages.  What troubles me is that I've "sold" 5 PowerBooks this year for Apple, partly based on the bundled software, and I'm now left wondering how to explain why a piece of software that was previously upgradable for free suddenly has to be paid for...

And it's not necessarily a matter of "being" screwed...  More to the point, I believe the important aspect here is that crawfordna FEELS he is being screwed!

People say that GarageBand / iDVD / iMovie are worth $50 - I agree.  However, I believe that the majority of people's experience with digital goes little further than photography.  I think it's a shame that Apple couldn't accommodate the "everyday" app, and charge for the others (interesting that iTunes is still a freebie, even though "they don't make any money" on iTMS!  After all, iTunes is still software that is being updated and has a cost.  Can we assume that once sales of the iPod have reached saturaration point that we will have to pay for upgrades to iTunes?)

bbloke's already said everything more pointedly than I can hope to at this time of day!


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## RacerX (Jan 10, 2004)

> guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one!



Fair enough. 



> To my mind, the idea of making one's Mac "the centre of one's digital world" (or whatever the strapline was!) included the software that came with it...  (because it was!)



I agree completely. As a consultant I have sold many of these systems over the years on that very basis. 



> Now, however, it's not included.



I'm sorry, that is a completely untrue statement.



> So, you CAN make your Mac the centre of your digital world, but you've got to pay for it...  (not quite the same thing to me!)



iLife is still included with all Macs as far as I can see, though I don't see GarageBand included at this time. On the other hand, Apple does have an up to date program for people who are now buying systems. I believe $19.95 is the same price Apple has always charged for these types of updates (I remember 10.1 costing that much)



> What troubles me is that I've "sold" 5 PowerBooks this year for Apple, partly based on the bundled software, and I'm now left wondering how to explain why a piece of software that was previously upgradable for free suddenly has to be paid for...



You shouldn't be explaining anything. Apple never said free for life. You get what you get and should be happy when you get more. You (nor the 5 you sold to) are entitled to anything beyond what you paid for. If it wasn't worth what it cost at the time, then they shouldn't have bought them. 

I wouldn't buy a car expecting the maker to upgrade the car to something better later on. The fact that Apple does these things at all should be welcomed. Acting like you have rights to gifts is the quickest way to not get gifts any more.



> And it's not necessarily a matter of "being" screwed...  More to the point, I believe the important aspect here is that crawfordna FEELS he is being screwed!



The important aspect is that crawfordna isn't thankful for what he got and will always want more. Apple didn't used to bundle this much software with their systems. Today you can buy a Mac and no other software and be just fine. That is amazing. Sadly, crawfordna is just spoiled. Life is going to be hard for some one like that.



> (interesting that iTunes is still a freebie, even though "they don't make any money" on iTMS!  After all, iTunes is still software that is being updated and has a cost.  Can we assume that once sales of the iPod have reached saturaration point that we will have to pay for upgrades to iTunes?)



No, I would say by that point you'll need new hardware or a new OS. Mac OS 9 users have been without a new version of iTunes since 2.0.4. Why? So they'll buy Mac OS X (at least 10.1.5). And before that iTunes required 9.0.4. Why? SoundJam MP (which iTunes was based on) ran fine in 8.x. It was so that people would upgrade to Mac OS 9.

I hope that doesn't surprise you. Apple is in the business of making money. You stay up with Apple's hardware and software and you'll be just fine with iTunes.


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## Randman (Jan 10, 2004)

Buy a used system that has the older apps in it.


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## applewhore (Jan 11, 2004)

RacerX said:
			
		

> Fair enough.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Funnily enough, it doesn't surprise me!  I DO expect Apple to make money.  Last year I think I spent about $30,000 on Apple gear...  No doubt some of it was profit for them (good!  why? because profit = investment in R&D etc. = better kit for us)

However, taking an application like iPhoto from being a free upgrade to a paying one has suprised a lot of people, myself included.  If you're happy with it, fair enough - but not everyone feels the same as you!



PS - sorry I don't know how to edit your comments as well as you did mine - I'm afraid it's all mixed up!

ed


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## Randman (Jan 11, 2004)

Gee, no one likes having to pay for something, especially if you've had it for free.

  That said, the price seems more than fair for what you're getting (you don't have to buy iLife and I'm sure there's ways to get older copies of the apps such as iPhoto (if it was free, I don't think that's talking about warez).
   But if you look at it as US$10 for each new application in it, that's a pittance. Heck, I paid US$20 last night for Speed Download 2. For that price, I could have gotten iPhoto (now able to hold 25,000 photos, with subfolders and direct .mac options) and GarageBand.
  I have a very well-used 20gb iPod, Gen 2. I've more than gotten my investment out of it and I've invested quite a bit (not counting iTMS and albums and audible.com content, I have a Vaja case, wireless remote and iTrip). Was I happy when i heard about the Gen3 40gb iPods? No, because I wanted one, but I didn't start complaining about how Apple owed me another 20gb of space (and other options such as alarms and on-the-go playlists).
  Sometimes, imho, people tend to rant first (especially on online forums) and think second. That's not a comment pointed to any individual (heck, I even do that), but a general observation.
  iLife '04 at US$50 is a good value.


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## RacerX (Jan 11, 2004)

applewhore said:
			
		

> Apple always provided / bundled these apps with computers - the updates were always free.  It was not unreasonable to expect the updates to continue to be free.  The fact that they now want to include GarageBand shouldn't affect iPhoto users IMHO.



I got AppleWorks 5 with a system at one point, Apple sure didn't give me AppleWorks 6 for free. The idea that Apple _always_ does anything is a little misguided. I have a pretty good record of what software Apple bundled with what computers going back some 15 years. If more examples are needed I would be happy to supply them.

Apple usually supplies updates for free, they tend to charge for upgrades. Most of the apps in the iLife suite have advanced enough to actually start being used for professional out put. That and the fact that they are getting larger, makes the download idea expensive for Apple. You now get what you get with your system, updates are free, upgrades are not. But they are not unreasonable either.



> Cars and software are not the same!  The point I am trying to make is that Apple has recognised a flaw in their iPhoto software and has made moves to fix it.  Why should we now view it as a "new" product?



iPhoto wasn't originally designed to compete with apps like Portfolio. It was limited in it's uses the same way that iMovie was in the beginning. No flaw, just a limit on it's abilities. Apple recognized that more and more people are using better and better digital equipment with their systems, and they upgraded the features accordingly. Remember the class of people these are being aimed at, home users. When Apple started iPhoto they had envisioned something much smaller.

Photoshop Elements has it's limits. I don't think that Adobe would consider Photoshop CS a fix for Photoshop Elements. In fact I don't think Adobe would consider Photoshop CS a fix for Photoshop 7 either.



> I don't think that crawfordna has said he's not thankful.  It seems to me that he's just a bit peeved - I can understand his frustration (after all, he only just bought his PB!)



Do you know how many people come to this forum to complain because they bought something from Apple and a few months later it was replaced by something new. Unless you think the world stops when you buy your equipment, you should know that your hardware and software are going to be replace soon with something else.



> However, taking an application like iPhoto from being a free upgrade to a paying one has suprised a lot of people, myself included.  If you're happy with it, fair enough - but not everyone feels the same as you!



There was one... and only one, free upgrade of iPhoto. From 1.1.1 to 2.0. This wasn't a long string of upgrades being broken here, just one. 



> PS - sorry I don't know how to edit your comments as well as you did mine - I'm afraid it's all mixed up!



Not a problem. The fact that I *can* edit this stuff shows I've spent way too much time writing these types of posts.


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