# 10.5 First impressions - post yours



## Giaguara (Oct 25, 2007)

Time for it now that it'll go public ...
Your first thoughts and impressions using it - post your.

1. iTunesque look all over ... 
So how do I get rid of the blue left pane and the stripes in Finder and everywhere else? Shouldn't "Graphite" appearance do this logically? 
I guess time to wait for Uno to update to fix this...
(I don't like that light blue)

2. How do I get the dock usable?
3D of which the +1D adds no data, and the black triangles replaced with dots aren't clear when using the dock in small scale.
Of course, could always get the dock back to 2D 

```
$ defaults write com.apple.dock no-glass -boolean YES; killall Dock
```
but that will still leave the white dots there. 
Using it on the left pane works a bit better...
I guess the 10.5 dock looks better, when you have a 30" cinema display, and want to closely observe the dock. But I want it small, without magnifying effects, with any background, and to not pay too much attention to the tiny dots or the lack of them. 
Perhaps would be time to get a setting for Universal Access to make an easy to see dock...


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## Captain Code (Oct 25, 2007)

Do people who pre-ordered Leopard have it yet?  I have the developer build but I'm not sure I can really say much yet even though it's only about 1 day away until the official "launch".


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## andyhargreaves (Oct 25, 2007)

I'm not talking to anyone about Leopard.  My macbook had to go into the Apple store today for a little warranty work doing - I was back home and it was too late to ask for it back when I realised why the date was so familiar...


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## macbri (Oct 25, 2007)

Captain Code said:


> Do people who pre-ordered Leopard have it yet?  I have the developer build but I'm not sure I can really say much yet even though it's only about 1 day away until the official "launch".



I saw on macosxhints.com they reported the NDA limits had been lifted or something...  ahh here it is.  Can anyone confirm?

Not that we have to wait much longer anyway, so a bit of a moot point I guess.


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## DarkSorrow (Oct 25, 2007)

May i ask, what NDA?


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## eric2006 (Oct 25, 2007)

Non-disclosure agreement: in a nutshell, developers get advanced releases of Leopard, but they sign a contract that prohibits them from disclosing features of the release.


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## BikerRob (Oct 25, 2007)

All kinds of people have already received their copies in the mail, and many sites are already talking about it, so I'm sure you're in the clear!


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## Captain Code (Oct 26, 2007)

Ok, well now it's Friday, it's gotta be ok for sure   First a mini rant.
Time Machine doesn't work with network drives over AFP.  It worked as far back as WWDC07 preview build, but they pulled it.  It worked, but had many bugs back then.  

The way it was supposed to work over a network is that Time Machine creates a sparse disk image on the network drive.  Then that disk image acts as the backup drive.  However, in the beta builds, it kept getting corrupted and Time Machine wouldn't work for a few days.  Then it would seem to reset the image and start working again.  

I'm sure they pulled the network backup because of this, but I hope it comes back soon with 10.5.1 or 10.5.2

There's still a few problems with hanging network shares.  If I forget to unmount a network share when I leave the house, when I get to where ever I'm going and open the computer, the login window takes a long time to show up.  The time out is not as bad as it was with Tiger, ie. it doesn't take as long for the computer to recognize that network shares aren't there anymore.  Indeed, the Finder is a lot better with this but the login widow is a little buggy still.  

Specifically, yesterday I forgot to unmount 2 shares and when I tried to login, I got the spinning beach ball of death and had to do a hard shutdown by holding the power button on my MBP.

Pros:  
Installing was fast.  I did an archive and install from 9a559(couldn't do any upgrade, but I didn't want to).  All my applications were copied over from the previous system folder to the new /Applications automatically by the installer.  It also copied over /Library/Application Support so pretty much every application worked without reinstalling.  I haven't come across anything that needs reinstalling yet, unlike in the previous builds of Leopard.  

Mail.app is much faster.  It seems each account's network access is in a separate thread.  I'm not sure if this was the case with Tiger but in any case, Mail is more multithreaded than before.  The windows and menus seem to be in separate threads because back at the WWDC 07 build there were some issues with not loading parts of the windows but other parts would still function.

Applications seem less buggy to me than with Tiger.  I can't recall Safari ever crashing.

Spotlight is blazingly fast.  No more waiting around for it to find your search results.  Works great as a program launcher.  Works as a rudimentary 4 function calculator.  No square root or anything that I've found, but +,-,*,/ work.  It has more powerful searches which I've not used yet.
It doesn't search within words in a file name.  That is if you have "Adobe Photoshop CS3.app" on your hard drive, typing in "shop" won't find it.  Typing in "Pho" is enough to find it on my computer. 

More to come later.


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## Captain Code (Oct 26, 2007)

BTW, if you have any specific questions, post them here and I'll answer them if I can.


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## bbloke (Oct 26, 2007)

Thanks, Captain Code.  This is quite useful stuff to know.



Captain Code said:


> It doesn't search within words in a file name.  That is if you have "Adobe Photoshop CS3.app" on your hard drive, typing in "shop" won't find it.  Typing in "Pho" is enough to find it on my computer.


Hmm, that could be quite annoying.  I hope they fix that, as remembering *part* of a name or word is very useful when struggling to remember what and where a file was...

Actually, I remember strange issues with Address Book, along those lines.  I remember searching for partial phone numbers and it not finding phone numbers that I knew existed.  I ended up finding them manually, which was tedious.  If my memory is correct, I think I even noticed it was more successful searching for the number _backwards_!  Maybe that was a bug that was resolved at some stage.


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## Veljo (Oct 26, 2007)

Late this afternoon I received my copy of Leopard. Excited, I install it flawlessly onto my MacBook Pro, and I must say that I am very impressed. It feels very polished, very stable, and I can't wait to see what comes up next.

One thing I noticed that others may not have yet is that when an Installer finishes adding items to your computer, rather than just giving you the expected "This installation is complete, click here to close" message you now get a sound alert and a giant green tick icon letting you know it's ready for dismissal.

I'm sure as America and Europe wake up there will be many happy faces, so post your thoughts here.


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## fryke (Oct 26, 2007)

Captain Code said:


> It doesn't search within words in a file name.  That is if you have "Adobe Photoshop CS3.app" on your hard drive, typing in "shop" won't find it.  Typing in "Pho" is enough to find it on my computer.



Same as in Tiger. It's been my biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig concern with Spotlight since its beginning. Quite obviously, someone at Apple is at war with searching within filenames. :/ It makes me sad that I have to use a 3rd party application (EasyFind) to make the whole OS work for me.


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## icemanjc (Oct 26, 2007)

Well, it came about 10 min ago, now I have to wait till tonight when I get home to install it, then I can rant.


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## fryke (Oct 26, 2007)

Apple took at least two features away in a last-minute manner:

1.) No iPhone/Mac notes synching,
2.) no backing up to network harddrives.

Both are really *too* bad. I wonder how many people have already bought new AirPort base stations in hopes of backing up wirelessly and automatically with a harddrive connected to it. I personally have a 1 TB drive that I intended to use for more than one Mac's TimeMachine backup, having it connected on one Mac directly and sharing it to the other. Now it looks like that just won't work either.  Now what: Will we have to wait for Mac OS X 10.6's list of 450 features and see whether "TimeMachine on networks" is "in"?


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## Thank The Cheese (Oct 26, 2007)

@fryke
wow, that's strange -- especially the notes synching. Why would they have done this? Surely it can't be that complicated that it had to be pulled so they could work on it.

so I have finally had a chance to install Leopard (3AM sat morning atm). I've only managed to have a 30minute play so far, as most of the time has been backing up, preparing, etc. I am very impressed so far. 

A few things I am noting in my early experiences:

- Very snappy. Even things that are usually slow and cumbersome like coverflow are 'smooth as butter' on my MBP. 

- They have fixed the issue many were complaining about where the dock mounted on the left or right does not look right. When dock is not on the bottom, the design changes to a flat semi-transparent box rather than the reflective floor. 

- Screen sharing! holy cow, that took me by surprise. I knew iChat has a screen sharing feature, but I didn't realise it was system wide. Now when you connect to a shared computer, you can choose to mount it as a drive or share the screen. My jaw dropped at how easy it was -- have been checking on downloads on my iMac (which is running Tiger) from my MBP in the other room -- works great, though a little laggy. 

- the new VoiceOver is fantastic. The best voice synthesis I've heard. WOuld be nice if they offered an English accent option, though. 

- Boot camp is HUGELY improved. The Windows drivers can be installed from the Leopard disc itself (no need to burn a driver disc). The new drivers are perfect -- you can ajust brightness, volume, keyboard luminosity, etc just like in OSX -- you even get the familar rounded grey box when you adjust volume/brightness. 

That's all I've looked at so far. I need to get some rest.


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## Captain Code (Oct 26, 2007)

I'm not sure about the notes feature but I think it'll be here soon, maybe next Tuesday we'll see 10.5.1.  I think some things from the 300 feature list were still too buggy for the release.


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## ScottW (Oct 26, 2007)

Wow. Got it in just before noon today. Fired it up and installed it, took about 40 minutes or so, doing the Archive and install option. But, by the time I actually got the thing booted up and logged in, it was probably closer to 55-60 minutes.

It is whopping fast. Love it. Still installing things like XCode right now and trying to play around with a few of the various features and it is a speed demon. More info as it I use it more.


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## DarkSorrow (Oct 26, 2007)

Thank The Cheese said:


> - Boot camp is HUGELY improved. The Windows drivers can be installed from the Leopard disc itself (no need to burn a driver disc). The new drivers are perfect -- you can ajust brightness, volume, keyboard luminosity, etc just like in OSX -- you even get the familar rounded grey box when you adjust volume/brightness.



1.4 Boot Camp Beta already have that feature. but it was less reponsive than in OSX. hopefully it more reponsive in Leopard.

I wonder do they fix when you make the brightness all the way to zero, the backlit went off like in OSX?


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## DarkSorrow (Oct 26, 2007)

I wonder how any of us have a PowerPC and Leopard.

Leopard is working great on PowerPC or something? i see great  news about Intel Macs, but what about PowerPC


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## Captain Code (Oct 26, 2007)

I have a PPC G5 tower but I have to make sure nothing(software) will break because it's my dad's computer that he uses for work.


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## Lt Major Burns (Oct 26, 2007)

the system font is different... not sure what it is, but O's now look more like 0's.

buttons are sort of sunk in a little bit.

played with resolution independence, and it's clear they havent really been working on it.  some elements are high res, most aren't (apple menu apple is, but selected apple menu apple isn't, for example).

new dock's actualy a bit of a pain, i was looking forward to it as well.

spotlight reindexes.

my internet is horrendously slow since the update.  hope it doesn't last/is a coincidence.

photoshop and illustrator both hung on first open.  seem to working fine since

got mine this morning at about 7.30am GMT.  that's before anyone on the internet, i think.    more when i think of it...


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## nixgeek (Oct 26, 2007)

DarkSorrow said:


> I wonder how any of us have a PowerPC and Leopard.
> 
> Leopard is working great on PowerPC or something? i see great  news about Intel Macs, but what about PowerPC



I have an iMac G5 that I eventually am going to move to Leopard.  I don't know how soon I can accomplish this so someone might actually beat me to the punch.  For now, Leopard is going to have to wait until I can scrounge up the money.


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## icemanjc (Oct 26, 2007)

nixgeek said:


> I have an iMac G5 that I eventually am going to move to Leopard. I don't know how soon I can accomplish this so someone might actually beat me to the punch. For now, Leopard is going to have to wait until I can scrounge up the money.


I've got a iMac G5 and I'll be able to try it out on it tonight and hopefully on my iBook, so I'll tell you how it goes.


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## Lt Major Burns (Oct 26, 2007)

i can't seem to find AirPort interface robustness in leopard.  which is crap, as it's the only way my Powermac will pick up a decent signal....  (the signal has to pass through pretty much the entire length of the 2-foot aluminium and interference case....)

i hope it's something simple to fix


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## Veljo (Oct 26, 2007)

Where did my topic go? I made one just like this yesterday, why was it deleted?

EDIT: Looks like it was merged. Nevermind.


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## fryke (Oct 26, 2007)

Yep, I've merged them.


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## debiso (Oct 26, 2007)

Installed this evening.  I did an upgrade and it went well.  seems speedy.  Most every thing works fine.  MS office is a little slower now.  It did loose all my printers which was a major bummer!


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## Thank The Cheese (Oct 26, 2007)

Lt Major Burns said:


> i was looking forward to it as well.



what don't you like about it? So far it's no more or less useful than the previous dock IMO. I haven't used the stacks much, so I may change my mind!

What bugs me is the two-tone colours in the finder. THe blue rows are a little too dark, which is distracting. But that is minor, overall I am absolutely delighted so far. 



I have a question re: Boot Camp. 

When you install windows via boot camp, the mac then defaults to booting in WIndows all the time (you have to press alt explicitly choose Mac OS X if you want to use Mac). YOu can, of course, change this -- as I have -- in the system prefs, but why in the world would Apple make Windows the default boot option?? 

DO you think that is a bug, an oversight or intentional? it's been doing this since Boot Camp beta 1, so I guess it is intentional.


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## icemanjc (Oct 26, 2007)

I have to get my external Dual Layer drive because the disc is Dual Layer, so I'll have to wait till tommorow to install .


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## Captain Code (Oct 26, 2007)

How old is your DVD drive?  All DVD-ROMs that I know of can read dual layer disks, just all dvd burners can't always burn dual layer disks.


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## icemanjc (Oct 26, 2007)

I have the first generation of G5 iMacs, its got a combo drive.


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## Captain Code (Oct 26, 2007)

OK, I don't see why you couldn't read a dual layer dvd disk.  If you can play any hollywood movie on it you can use it to install Leopard.


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## icemanjc (Oct 26, 2007)

I guess, I could, I never really thought about it, but yah I noticed it was reading 7 GB discs so I guess I could do, I always thought combo drives to be the lowest of the low, and I looked in system profiler, never said anything about it.


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## ollickle (Oct 26, 2007)

Backed up 5 gig in 40 minutes, 165 gig to go on 3900g Maxtor external.
22 hours to finish.  This is an old G5 iMac.

Much easier to back up apps and data as I used to, Must be doing something wrong..


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## mdnky (Oct 26, 2007)

Seems like everything is running much faster now for me.  Not sure if anyone noticed, but Apple finally fixed the icon for iCal to display the current date in the dock.  

I do wish they'd come up with a better way for the stacks icons.  The address book icon is the first in my applications, so it's set as the stack icon and that's annoying.  I'd rather have a generic applications icon here--same for the docs and downloads stacks.


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## gregster (Oct 26, 2007)

So I went for the install last night and it did not go smoothly. Tried to upgrade initially, and to cut a long story short, Finder would not function and could not identify my boot disk (although I could get to files on it once spotlight had indexed).  Killed the finder process in terminal but no luck.  Apple Support were stunningly useless, ie 'well, I guess you should expect a load of bugs, it is brand new' 

Did an archive/install, no luck (same problem) so ended up erasing and installing with no issue....apart from having to re-install apps, prefs etc from my Super Duper backups. (a decent back up saves the day again)

Would probably say that my issue was not related to Leopard itself. 

Currently having a few teething problems, i.e. unable to change the background in iChat to a user specified photo/movie, but all in all, quite sweet


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## gregster (Oct 26, 2007)

A lot of the forums talk about repair permissions taking a long time.  Mine took 15 mins (as opposed to 2 normally), and then came back with this:


'Warning: SUID file "System/Library/CoreServices/RemoteManagement/ARDAgent.app/Contents/MacOS/ARDAgent" has been modified and will not be repaired'

Any ideas?


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## eWm90 (Oct 27, 2007)

The look over all is grate the problem I have is the contrast between the control menus at the top of the screen and the windows. For me they seem to have to totally different feels as if they are port of 2 different OsX versions.

I do love the new logo at the top right.


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## mw84 (Oct 27, 2007)

I'm personally still pondering wether or not to buy. I really don't like the look of the new desktop for some reason, a few features I was hoping for haven't been included and app updates I can just download. 

That said I probably will buy it within the next few weeks just so I can have a go but at the minute I'm quite happy with Tiger.


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## gregster (Oct 27, 2007)

So (see posts above) the update was not the smoothest, but after a few hours exploring (which as we know if half the fun) I am very happy.  The new Finder is great, and the ichat 'share' functions are outstanding    Being able to run through photo collections or documents is a breeze, and so so much better than emailing lots of files or using a web browser (assuming you have not loaded on the web already).  Spaces is growing on me, but I am fairly organised with my apps anyway. Lots of people are unhappy with the 'look' but I am not bothered...to be honest I have not really noticed.

One major gripe is the application 'on' indicator in the dock though.  The tiny 'dot' is horrid


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## fryke (Oct 27, 2007)

Use the 2D dock, then. Open Terminal.app and enter the two following commands (you can copy and paste) and hit enter (by hand) after each line.

```
defaults write com.apple.dock no-glass -boolean YES
killall Dock
```


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## Thank The Cheese (Oct 27, 2007)

Cool little feature:
When you select a file, then hit Return to highlight the filename, the Finder automatically selects *only* the filename and not the extension. that's very handy.


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## Lt Major Burns (Oct 27, 2007)

Thank the Cheese:

I'm not happy cos it's broken my AirPort connection!  turns out, my delicate connection to my airport network was held together by the Interference Robustness in OSX.  for no apparent reason, it's not absent in Leopard.

other than that, it works fine, is snappy and pretty much bug free.  having said that, this is what i posted in a design forum:

 "on the whole, i think it's pretty ugly to look at. the see through menubar is only good if you've got nothing open. which is... never... all other times, it's a dull medly of other colours, and it lacks prominence.  the Tiger menu bar was, to be honest, Flawless.  'm not going to say that lightly, but i think it's true.

The unified look: far too dark.  i'd like it to be the tone of _inactive_ windows, which are a much more pleasant tone. at the moment, they all look a bit forboding. and the dock is a bit of a mess now. the reflections and shadows and that are impressive enough, but the end result is something that looks a bit cluttered and ugly."  like i said, i was looking forward to the new dock...


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## gregster (Oct 27, 2007)

fryke said:


> Use the 2D dock, then. Open Terminal.app and enter the two following commands (you can copy and paste) and hit enter (by hand) after each line.
> 
> ```
> defaults write com.apple.dock no-glass -boolean YES
> ...



Thanks Fryke,  excuse ignorance, but I assume that the 2D dock will revert to the old Tiger type and lose stacks?


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## Lt Major Burns (Oct 27, 2007)

nah, it's the leopard dock, with a different 'skin' as it were.  if you put your dock on the side of the screen, this is what it'd look like.  all leopard functionality remains.


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## icemanjc (Oct 27, 2007)

So, has anybody tried out photo booth? With all the new background and stuff you can do, I heard it was supposed to be good.


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## fryke (Oct 27, 2007)

and i think it's easily revertable from what the command looks like.  a "NO" should do the trick. so no harm in trying...


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## jbartlet (Oct 27, 2007)

Never thought I'd be posting anything like this. As a developer, I've been running various iterations of the beta on several machines at work, but I wanted an actual retail package just to have (because it's cool and all). So I got it yesterday and went to upgrade my MacBook Pro. I did all the things one does prior to an upgrade, ran Disk Utility, ran a full backup, etc. The install itself was odd. It seemed to hang for long periods (15-20 minutes) several times and then appeared to procede normally. When it finally finished the machine was unable to get all the way to the Desktop. I get the grey Apple logo screen, then just a nice blue screen that never ever gets to the login window. Very odd indeed. I suspect something on the machine is somehow at odds with the startup process. I'll be doing a full erase and install now, but I'm pulling the logs off first so I can see if anything shows up. I'll post again once (if) I know so no one else runs into it. I have some suspicions, but I'll confirm before I jump to conclusions.

Having said all that, the last beta was amazing and I expect the retail release will be even better. And yes, the NDA was officially dropped Thursday.


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## Ifrit (Oct 27, 2007)

First impressions:

Works and installs fine on Powermac G5 with modified 7800GS graphics card.

- Very snappy, resizing of windows feels much faster.
- Stacks are ugly and not well thought out. You can't customize the icon of the stack. I worked around it by creating a folder with the "_" as name and assigning a custom icon to it. But this is something the user shouldn't have to do.
- Although I didn't like coverflow that much when it was first introduced, its still a neat addition.
- Nice that you don't have to edit the smb.conf in order to add new shares

So, when I have to reinstall everything then I will try most of the new "300" features.


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## Perishingflames (Oct 27, 2007)

Can you download an upgrade? All I can find on the apple store is the disk.


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## adishong (Oct 27, 2007)

I tried the "upgrade" option on my wife's G5 first and it seemed to go through a clean install.  Once it rebooted it just gave me a blue screen and a cursor, I was patient and waited for an hour before powering off.  I once again started the install process but this time I did an "archive/install" and that worked.  The only problem I saw once it booted up and logged in (which takes a little time on the first "go around" ) is my wife's account would not let me log in, it complained about a problem with file vault but it was never on for her account.  My account and the kids accounts were fine so I just restored heres through the back up and everything was fine.  These are all PowerPC not Intel, but I am going to try an do an upgrade on my Powerbook to see if I get the same result.  I am going to increase the memory to a 1G it seemed a little sluggish at times with 512MB.


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## connor (Oct 27, 2007)

First impressions is that it is much more responsive and sleek looking. Upgraded both imac and ibook with no issues. Found out after installation on my imac that the printer driver for my Epson Photo Stylus R340, which is suppose to be incorporated in the OS, does not allow me to print using Epson's PrintCD. emailed epson, waiting for response.

Other than that, nice additions.


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## Thank The Cheese (Oct 27, 2007)

connor said:


> First impressions is that it is much more responsive and sleek looking. Upgraded both imac and ibook with no issues. Found out after installation on my imac that the printer driver for my Epson Photo Stylus R340, which is suppose to be incorporated in the OS, does not allow me to print using Epson's PrintCD. emailed epson, waiting for response.
> 
> Other than that, nice additions.



why is it always the printers and scanners that have compatibility issues whenever a new os (Mac, Windows or Linux) is released? It's so frustrating -- is it a lack of standards, or are printers/scanners somehow more complicated than other devices?


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## bcoe (Oct 27, 2007)

Installed Leopard upgrade on my Mini in about 1 1/2 hours. It verified my DVD and installed, rebooted and went to log-in. It showed my name (from upgrade). It would not accept my u/n or p/w. A call to India with a long wait got me to a very helpful tech. She could not resolve after resetting my u/n and p/w. Solution - re-install.

After rebooting I got a strange message that my u/n and p/w were not correct. Pressing enter logged me in and we were off to the races!!!

I've used just about every OS and this is light years ahead of anything I have even heard of. It works (so far) better than advertised. Time Machine set itself up and began backing up. Mail set up my Gmail and downloaded all of my mail. I set up Pop Mail - same thing.

I can't wait to try Boot Camp. WOW!


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## icemanjc (Oct 27, 2007)

I installed it on my iMac G5, it froze the first time I tried to install, now it works, its doing fine but the fan has been on since I installed it. I hate how they ask you if you want to empty trash can, and all the shortcuts on the side of every window.


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## fryke (Oct 27, 2007)

You can remove those shortcuts.


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## andyhargreaves (Oct 27, 2007)

icemanjc said:


> ....I hate how they ask you if you want to empty trash can....



Gaaah. You see, the people who said Apple stole ideas from Vista were right!  I'm sure there'll be a way of disabling it.  Please.


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## chevy (Oct 27, 2007)

Thank The Cheese said:


> why is it always the printers and scanners that have compatibility issues whenever a new os (Mac, Windows or Linux) is released? It's so frustrating -- is it a lack of standards, or are printers/scanners somehow more complicated than other devices?



Both...

- all printer manufacturers try to add specific features to differentiate, and so make quite complex products

- and even for "standard features" printer never really worked on standards. PostScript is a standard, but all manufacturers use some special options and finally you need a driver for each printer brand, and each printer model.


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## bledrew (Oct 27, 2007)

I had prepared my early 2006 Intel iMac adding a 500G firewire/USB2.0 external MiniStackv3 to use with TimeMachine. I did a backup with SuperDuper prior to installing Leopard. It took quite awhile, but completed without incident.

I did a similar installation on a G5 iMac, also without incident. Both iMacs had 2G of RAM.

I got a little overzealous and without thinking it through ran the installer on my  trusty old G4 400 [upgraded with dual 1.25ghz PowerLogix processors and video. It all went well until the very end, when it seemed to hang. I restarted and it would powerup and begin to boot and then power off. I haven't tried to get the installer DVD out yet. Will check on Monday. Can't believe I did such a stupid thing. 

That's it for now. Oh, my Filemaker 9 Advanced works just fine so far as do most of the applications I've checked.


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## Tinchohs (Oct 27, 2007)

First let me start by saying that my issues are with the productivity 'features'.  The rest of the product I am quire satisfied with.  

If I go into iCal, Mail and To Dos, I have to say I think we are even worse than we were before (in Tiger).  A few thoughts: 

(1) Even though I kind of like the mail interface, there is no way on filtering or any kind of views to it.  For someone that really bases his productivity in To Do management (over 140 to do's), this is quite useless.  Sorting is a very poor start.  

(2) Of course, you still have the limited functionality you use to have in iCal, and yet the change in interface has made it even more difficult to create a new to do, since accessing the more advance attributes of a to do are not accessible in such a straight forward way as it was before.  

I could go on and on, but I will avoid you the dread.  But as a summary, it's sad that after waiting for son long for an update to this area of productivity features, we could have gotten something cool, and in fact we really got nothing quite useful in practical terms.  Personally, I could have done without all the look and feel features and would have prefer more functional features...  

These are my thoughts! Thanks. Martin.


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## modelamac (Oct 27, 2007)

Taking advantage of the subject rrather than replying, hoping this thread may become s Stickie.

My Mac: G4 QS upgraded to dual 1.8 GHZ, 1.5GB plus MB 2.0 Core Duo 2GB

MB Leopard is fine, but as yet unused with Leopard except for iChat.  Change background, iChat Theater, file transfer all work.

G4 for some reason not eligible, per Leopard.  My back door approach:

FW drive formatted to GUID per Leopard when connected to MB.  Installed Leopard on FW then connected to G4.  Used Super Duperr to clone to HFS+ volume.  Booted that installation and it works.

Found I don't like Stacks.  I'd rather right click and get a clickable list.

Time Machine. Not intuitive.  Have to Add to a list to subtract from the copy process.  Be careful.  Untouched, it will try to backup ALL your hard drives the first time.  You have to add hard drives and files to the list (Options) to remove them from the copy process.   TM is a System hog when it nears/counting down to the next backup.  You can limit how far back in time it will save its files by limiting the size of the partition it is given.  Otherwise it will fill a 500GB drive before overwriting.  It can be time-consuming to set up.  Took 2.8 hours to backup 30 GB.

Safari  Fast, but has problem with QuickTime items on websites.  Flip4Mac is broken, or did not transfer. 

Mail.  I no longer use it.

Migration Assistant did a good job.  iCal and Address Book are intact & usable.

Not a power user, so have no comments on the pro apps.

Have not yet tried iWorks 08 or iLife 08, though I have both.

Please understand that this is my early experience with Leopard, on MY Mac, the way it is set up and running.  It was purring with Tiger.  I'm not nearly at that stage with Leopard.


----------



## DeltaMac (Oct 27, 2007)

bledrew said:


> I restarted and it would powerup and begin to boot and then power off. I haven't tried to get the installer DVD out yet. Will check on Monday.



Here's something I found in some training notes for Leopard


> If the startup disk has irreparable directory damage, Leopard shuts down during the spinning gear stage, instead of continuing indefinitely.


Boot back up to the Leopard installer DVD, and run Disk Utility from the Utilities menu. You may find that your hard drive is failing...


----------



## Veljo (Oct 27, 2007)

What ever happened to the cool iChat effects, such as the Star Wars holograph and alpha channel mouth options?


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## Y-notÂ® (Oct 27, 2007)

andyhargreaves said:


> Gaaah. You see, the people who said Apple stole ideas from Vista were right!  I'm sure there'll be a way of disabling it.  Please.



Click on the desktop (puts you in the Finder) go to Menu bar, select Finder, second Item Down Select Preferences, Select Advanced, Remove 3rd Check mark. That should do it. Sorry if I didn't get all the names right I was doing a quick Translate from German. Were the Items are at the Same Place but are called different.http://macosx.com/forums/images/icons/icon11.gif


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## Cameron Beeler (Oct 27, 2007)

Like the 3D bar.

Love Spaces & the look & feel of Finder.  Though I find that a couple of the document types/movie types (ie VLC) don't allow or provide a way that I know of yet, to provide an icon - visual for.

Spaces has some interesting buggie characteristics.
1.  I setup a 2x2 space.
2.  I was access via my RF mouse - button 4.  Originally, button 4 was setup to view setup for Expose' applications window.  I set b4 up for Spaces and let it run overnight.  The next day, B4 was acting as an Expose' Applications button again.  I went to check the setup and it was setup for Spaces.  Odd behavior.
I also noted that my Airport signal was dead.  My other Macbook was still connected just find.
3.  I rebooted, and the Airport came up 5-by-5 (Perfect)
4.  I modified spaces to have the space showing up on the Menu Bar, and it did.  At that point, my mouse b4 wasn't working, again.  I checked System Pref and it was correctly setup.  I unset / reset it and it began working.  Still working.

Initially, every directory and functional "finder" category needed to rebuild its index before it could access the files, but once built is impressively quick.  The first build can take a few minutes.

I've added photos to my iPhoto, then accessed pictures a couple of hours later via Finder.  Finder needed to re-sync the pictures category when I reloaded it, which I found to be a bit odd.

I still don't understand why there isn't a "move" (or cut/paste) option natively in Finder.  I use MuCommander to move files, but it is silly that I need a 3rd party application to do what Finder "Almost" does.  Someone please tell me what I'm doing wrong - I find it difficult, as a new mac user, to believe that Finder does everything for file management, except move the files.

I use the stacking function and would like it to manage smaller icons - or a scrolling up/down stack w/o having the full window view.  Also, if the stack would allow Grid access, and expand in/out of a directory in the Grid, that would be cool.  If the stack were a "Fan", allowing access by scrolling to an up/down arrow and having the stack move up/down would also be cool!

Net:Net - I love 10.5.  I love Spaces.  I am already using a couple of stacks and the Finder app is pretty cool.

Don't understand the Loss of Signal w/Airport.  I have extreme and it is 802.11/n.  I should not have any access issues.

I don't understand the Failure of Spaces a couple of times, but I've recovered easily enough.

I am working on the Time Machine feature next...Wish me luck!
Cam

MacBook Pro 15", Intel Core 2 Duo, 2.33 GHz + 2GB RAM, Mac OS X 10.5 (9A581)


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## kittonian (Oct 27, 2007)

Leopard is great in all respects except for one major flaw. This new Stacks system is terrible and rendered our shortcuts folder with aliases to network drives, sub folders containing additional aliases to programs, etc. unusable.

Please Apple, give us a way to disable Stacks and go back to the way things used to work in all the previous versions of OS X. I have seen so many people posting on various forums talking about how they absolutely hate Stacks and wish the functionality would be the same as it was in Tiger.

If anyone has a solution to this or a way to get this across to Apple I think a lot more people would be very happy with this new version of OS X.


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## icemanjc (Oct 27, 2007)

I tired of iMovie 08' I have to re import all my movies, its so dumb.


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## Thank The Cheese (Oct 27, 2007)

Veljo said:


> What ever happened to the cool iChat effects, such as the Star Wars holograph and alpha channel mouth options?



hey you're right! I'd forgotten about that. 

I think this is why Apple are so secretive -- there were probably a number of features stripped from Tiger at the last minute, but we'll never know because they didn't pre-announce Tiger features so thoroughly.


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## b50fdd10c (Oct 27, 2007)

I only request simple things from my network which it obliged until about 4pm on the 26th.  First the damned program would not intstall...I had to go back and forth twice to get it up and running.

Then, forget printing over the network (it is an Extreme-N)which worked delightfully since it was installed about a month ago.  It even recognized and used a network disc until I installed leopardshit-tard.

Then you also can cast away the entire keychain which they just updated an hour ago (which does me no good whatsoever).

Settings and preferences, upgrade, HAH!!!!  This piece of crap shaftware is worthy of Bill Gates.

F it I'm going back to Tiger.  Anyone want to buy an almost new MBP 17" glosssy screened paperweight?


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## unixman (Oct 27, 2007)

After installing this sweet kitty last night, I started exploring her features.  The first thing I did was to try Time Machine.  It backed everything up whilst I explored other features.

No gotchas UNTIL I decided to try Boot Camp.  After partitioning, I installed XP Home on the new partition.  As the install was finishing, I got the dread Blue Screen Of Death.  I tried to recover from that several times, but nothing doing.  And I couldn't eject the MickeySoft CD until I extracted the drive from this Mac Pro and hit the internal eject button on the drive proper.

I put the Leopard disk back in and tried various recovery means in vain.  Finally, I initialised the boot volume and installed FRESH.

After the install, it asked me if I wanted to transfer data from another machine OR A TIME MACHINE DRIVE.  I selected Time Machine.  It instructed me to plug it in.  I clicked the Okay and an hour later everything was back just the way it had been before the Boot Camp installation.

So!  Time Machine saved my butt!  It works as advertised!

BTW:  just about everything gives you a lot more choices than in Tiger.  And very appropriate choices at that.  My Notes and ToDos, created in Mail sync to my other machines.  I was able to use the MacBook Pro to browse the MacPro wirelessly, and even watch a TV show that resided on a drive in the MacPro.  I haven't yet tried "Back To My Mac" from a DIFFERENT network, but have confidence that it will work just fine.  "Back To My Mac" uses .mac to keep track of where your various machines reside, and takes care of configuring the connections for you.  Just use the Finder to find your sibling and use it's files.

Spaces works flawlessly.

The Finder is a really slick app now, and Cover Flow works VERY nicely in the Finder.  As I resize the Finder window, the docs, movies, pictures automatically resize also.  The Finder is quite configurable now, and I'll probably get rid of some of the third party software I've been using to browse and manage media files of various kinds.


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## fryke (Oct 27, 2007)

Thank The Cheese said:


> hey you're right! I'd forgotten about that.
> 
> I think this is why Apple are so secretive -- there were probably a number of features stripped from Tiger at the last minute, but we'll never know because they didn't pre-announce Tiger features so thoroughly.



They're definitely there in PhotoBooth. Ah, in iChat as well. 3rd and 4th page of video effects. See, all's well.


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## wboston (Oct 27, 2007)

I got my copy of Leopard in yesterday . . . . have sent the last two days trying to install.   The OS disc freezes at the destination . . . can not find (or recognized) my hard drive.


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## gregster (Oct 27, 2007)

So I only seem to have two pages of video effects, i.e. the standard 'photographic' adjustments (Sepia, B&W etc) and the stretch, dent page etc.  Are there meant to be more ? I think this might be due to me being on a PPC Mac.  Further research leads me to this article

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=306687

Looks like my assumption above was right with regards to the need for an Intel set up


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## icemanjc (Oct 27, 2007)

So I installed 10.5 onto my ibook G3, its at the booting apple logo, so I'll see what happens.


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## Misha35 (Oct 27, 2007)

I Love it! I did a basic 'upgrade' which took about an hour, and everything went just fine!
I love Photo Booth and the new iChat! lol


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## ex2bot (Oct 27, 2007)

Ice,

You can turn off Empty Trash confirmation message in Finder Preferences under Advanced, I believe. Also, iMovie 06 is available for download from Apple for free if you want to go back to it.

Doug


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## jnaeve (Oct 27, 2007)

It took me two installs to get a good build to work from.  The interesting thing is the problem of compatibility between Tiger and Leopard, this is what I found...

1)  Backup doesn't work as well as I had hoped to bring back the data I archived previously so that was a problem.  It ultimately did good and I was able to restore data but it wasn't smooth.

2)  I noticed that when I was restoring my iCal files from my backup, it wouldn't restore so after looking at the logs, I discovered that the Leopard iCal file system is different than the iCal file system of Tiger.  That prompted me to check and see if Microsoft Office 2004, Entourage would synchronize with iCal or not - it did not.  Microsoft Sync caused issues with iCal and compounded trouble from there.

3)  Firewall is not set up the same.  Apple took away the ability to configure individual ports, both UDP and TCP and for incoming and outgoing traffic.  I have an important application that requires me to establish open ports of both UDP and TCP and I was unable to configure this.  Not sure why but Apple determined that users only needed to do is add an application to the firewall window in system preferences and presto- it works.  Not the case, this process does not function properly.

4)  At the point of launch, Mac users can no longer synchronize their iCal calendars with Exchange what so ever.  Previously, users could use Microsoft Office 2004 Entourage or Snerdware's GroupCal but neither program supports Leopard today and therefore, there is no possible chance for collaboration with Exchange until sometime in 2008.

Fundamentally, this to me is a significant oversight by Apple and maybe their stubbornness and dogmatic approach to "open source", focusing on CalDAV for collaboration, has left Mac users in the cold.  Frankly this is a raw deal and in the Enterprise, unacceptable.  

Beyond this, there are a few quirky issues with the OS but minor in comparison.  The shell performs much faster than Tiger did and the native OSX programs work wonderfully.  For today - if you're an Enterprise user, defer your decision to move to Leopard until sometime middle of next year (2008) sorry but there isn't better news until then.


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## powermac (Oct 28, 2007)

Other than not able to restore my address (from Backup.app), I am so far very pleased. 
Install went easy took the average of 40 minutes. Set-up Time Machine to my external with no problems. Then Spotlight indexed my drives. 

Terminal you have to enable su manually, that took some digging around to find out how. 
On a new Imac, and my old PB, Leopard seems to run well so far. Neo Office files only give you the first page in Quick-Look, hopefully something that will be fixed in the future.


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## arninetyes (Oct 28, 2007)

Well, I preordered Leopard and received a shipping notice from FedEx.  Late Friday, Fedex said my Leopard package ended up in Indiana - I'm in California.  Go figure.  I guess Monday will be soon enough...


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## bijvoet (Oct 28, 2007)

I pre ordered family pack and was there to get it.
But there were no family packs yet!


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## gilwell (Oct 28, 2007)

Installation was quick as installations go (though it was a bit disconcerting that the initial time remaining was "5 hours and 23 minutes", (dropping down to 19 minute left after about half an hour). I learned the importance of reading details first before acting. Bought the family pack before I discovered the processor speed took out four of the five candidates for the the upgrade. Time Machine was a simple as clicking okay, then letting it build the back-up overnight.

Two things that weren't entirely clear before I did the install (again need to read better) was Leopard's inability to deal with OS 9 apps, and Apple's Filemaker Division's decision to orphan everything prior to the current version (9). Filemaker has publicly identified at least two features that Leopard breaks and will have a patch in about a month. But will not provide a patch for versions 8.5 or earlier, nor will they do any testing of earlier versions. Their customers must upgrade or else FM may not be completely functional with Leopard. Unfortunately, the FM 9 upgrade was significantly more expensive than earlier upgrades.


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## Veljo (Oct 28, 2007)

fryke said:


> They're definitely there in PhotoBooth. Ah, in iChat as well. 3rd and 4th page of video effects. See, all's well.



Not for me. Where?


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## fryke (Oct 28, 2007)

I open PhotoBooth or iChat, go to Effects, choose the 3rd page for preinstalled effects. Choose 4th page of effects to add my own backdrops... Dunno how else to explain...


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## Ifrit (Oct 28, 2007)

Me too, there are only two effect panels there. (See screenshot)

edit: I believe it depends on which renderpath is available to you. I will start photobooth with the geforce 6800 renderpath/opengl engine (with the help of the developer app opengl profiler). Lets see if the new effects show up.


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## icemanjc (Oct 28, 2007)

What computer do you have, because it might just be for the computers with iSight built in.


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## Ifrit (Oct 28, 2007)

I have a Powermac G5 dual - 2Ghz (AGP); modified Geforce 7800 and one of the old standalone iSight cameras.  
Ok, I tried every preset in the OpenGL profiler and the effects didn't show up. It might be that OSX uses a standard graphics driver which lacks certain features, or these option might not be available for the PowerPC. Back in OSX 10.4 I used a customised OpenGL engine for the 7800, to take advantage of all OpenGL features. At least the mac is running fine with all the other eye candy.


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## Rhisiart (Oct 28, 2007)

I really only have one complaint about Leopard. The bloody install DVD is stuck in my iBook and I can't it out!!!

You may laugh, but this is a disaster. Imagine my excitement when I unpacked my small parcel from Apple last Friday afternoon and pulled out the shiny new Leopard DVD. I place it in the iBook to install and the sodding thing gets stuck.

The DVD is not recognised and won't eject.

However, it seems that most recipients are generally pleased with the new system.


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## Captain Code (Oct 28, 2007)

fryke said:


> They're definitely there in PhotoBooth. Ah, in iChat as well. 3rd and 4th page of video effects. See, all's well.



There's no StarWars effect like they previewed.  That was probably the most fun one IMO.  But maybe they ran into copyright problems with Lucas Studios.  

Some Photo Boot effects require an Intel Mac for some reason:
Photo Booth requires an iSight camera (built-in or external), USB video class (UVC) camera, or FireWire DV camcorder; and an Intel or PowerPC G5 processor. Backdrop effects require an Intel Core Duo or faster processor. Backdrop effects when using a DV camcorder require fixed focus, exposure, and white balance.


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## Lt Major Burns (Oct 28, 2007)

i'm guessing no-one rebooted yet...

"Starting Mac OS" screen is gone.  it now goes from grey Apple, to blue screen, to desktop.   to be honest, after Tiger's arbitrary "Starting Mac OS X" with a blue bar filling almost too rapidly to see, i'm guessing they thought it wasn't needed any more.


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## JoeWM (Oct 28, 2007)

On Friday night I spent about 10 min in line at about 6:15 pm at the New Jersey, Sagemore apple store.  There were a lot of people in the store  and the stores employees were all smiling and all pretty busy.

Anyway I could only get a large T-Shirt all X-large were gone.

But I did get my Family pack of Leopard.  When I got home, I upgraded my Powerbook G4 1.67 GHZ / 1.5GB of memory first.  I decided to forgo any backup, just full steam ahead (I checked most of my apps in the preceding days for any issues with leopard, non found).  The upgrade went smooth, but took about 1.5 hours.

I then upgraded my iMac (2.4GHz Intel / 2GB of memory (After I installed the beta version of Fusion 1.1)).  The upgrade of my iMac took about 45 min. and was smooth.

My first impression is that the changes are appealing and I like it, but not wow'd. However, I am beginning to warm up to Leopard and am glad I bought it.  I do not have the same feelings as I do regarding MS Vista, so what, who  cares, memory hog and just slow, stay with XP).  I didn't want to stay with tiger and I am glad I did the upgrade.

So Far I have to say "Time Machine" is OK.  Time machine seems to be a bit slow and I would like to have more control over it.  But for now I will try and see what else I can do with it.

I like the changes in mail.

My experience on my Intel iMac is great, I haven't really hit my PowerbookG4, but that will come Monday at work.

Anyway I will try and update more as I use MAC OS X 10.5.


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## jbartlet (Oct 28, 2007)

After doing a clean install, I examined the logs I'd copied off. Looks like Application Enhancer may have been to blame. The logs were FULL - I mean hundreds of repeated lines - of CSS/Finder errors. I'd strongly suggest dumping APE prior to attempting an upgrade. If it's already too late, you can boot into a UNIX prompt and manually delete the offending files.

Here's a fix I found (sadly) after the fact. Paths may differ.

1. Reboot into single-user mode (hold Cmd-S while booting machine)
2. Follow the directions OSX gives you when you get to the prompt (I think these were them - just type the two commands it tells you to):
fsck -fy /
/sbin/mount -uw /
3. Remove the following files:
rm -rf /Library/Preference Panes/Application Enhancer.prefpane
rm -rf /Library/Frameworks/Application Enhancer.framework
rm -rf /System/Library/SystemConfiguration/Application Enhancer.bundle
rm -rf /Library/Preferences/com.unsanity.ape.plist
4. Exit, to continue booting normally
exit
restart

Now that I'm up and running, I'm back to loving Leopard. The menu bar transparency adjustments are MUCH better than the beta!





jbartlet said:


> Never thought I'd be posting anything like this. As a developer, I've been running various iterations of the beta on several machines at work, but I wanted an actual retail package just to have (because it's cool and all). So I got it yesterday and went to upgrade my MacBook Pro. I did all the things one does prior to an upgrade, ran Disk Utility, ran a full backup, etc. The install itself was odd. It seemed to hang for long periods (15-20 minutes) several times and then appeared to procede normally. When it finally finished the machine was unable to get all the way to the Desktop. I get the grey Apple logo screen, then just a nice blue screen that never ever gets to the login window. Very odd indeed. I suspect something on the machine is somehow at odds with the startup process. I'll be doing a full erase and install now, but I'm pulling the logs off first so I can see if anything shows up. I'll post again once (if) I know so no one else runs into it. I have some suspicions, but I'll confirm before I jump to conclusions.
> 
> Having said all that, the last beta was amazing and I expect the retail release will be even better. And yes, the NDA was officially dropped Thursday.


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## johnandpenny (Oct 28, 2007)

Loaded Leopard on Imac G5 and applications would not quit. Spent all day saturday trying to get apple technical help to no avail. Just a huge phone cost!!!
Suddenly everything crashed saturday night and I am curently saving files to disc before I erase and try again. I put my Tiger discs in and chose Archive install to get computer to work again.
Not very impressed, will need to contact adobe concerning my activation of creative suite.


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## johnandpenny (Oct 28, 2007)

Imac G5 2.1Ghz 20 months old with 1.5 GB of memory.


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## arninetyes (Oct 28, 2007)

Powerbook G4 1.5GHz, 1.25GB RAM.  I'll post the results of my Leopard install - after my package gets here from Indiana, that is.

"FedEx.  When it absolutely, positively MUST get there on time."  Indeed.

As for my Powerbook Pismo, the senior citizen of my computers - no doubt it will continue to run just fine (if a bit slowly) on OS X 10.3.9, even if Leopard crashes my Powerbook G4.  Or, I can use my work computer - a 2.0GHz Dell 600M with Windoughs blechXP.  Naw.  I'll have to switch my Linux hard drive into it.  I HATE Windoughs.


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## airportmark (Oct 28, 2007)

*All about my upgrade:* Permission repair status bar keeps showing the candystripe.  I discovered it is working, but is slow no status is indicated.  Had to do an archive and install on my G4 Mirror as it said something was missing and I had to move some info from the library for my applications.  Had to reinstall Paralells on my Intel IMac 24".  Otherwise it was an easy upgrade.

G4 Mirror, MBP 15", Intel Imac 24", PBG4 17"


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## bcoe (Oct 28, 2007)

Fascinating !!
My wireless Airport Extreme signal is maximum strength! It has never been this strong!! 
Mail is great, but creating a new mail is problematical. Most times, not all, I must quit mail, and reopen. Then it is fine.
My address book problem required me to import from a back up. Why it did not come along with the upgrade??
I find the MAC G3 but not my PC's on my lan??
Later.


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## tcapoccia (Oct 28, 2007)

Quote:
Originally Posted by promacmor1 
The problem that happens sometimes when I am in a internet site for awhile and then I try to open another application and I get the spinning wheel for that application but when I try to force quit the computer will not do so. I tried to wait awhile but the wheel kept spinning. So I have to press the power button to reset the computer. One time when I was in the internet and tried to switch to an open application I got a scrolling gray screen telling me to press the power switch to reset the computer.

My experience.....

Same thing happened after I loaded Leopard on my MacPro Quad Xeon. It happened four times over a 5 hour period--a couple times when using Spaces, and then without spaces when I had multiple programs opened. I have done the same exact multi-tasking in Tiger and never had a problem.

I have never had the MacPro do that before Leopard--the spinning wheel and Force Quit wouldn't work and I had to use the power button to shut down.

I also had some programs refuse to accept my user password to make changes, then an update came through early this morning to fix something in the password chain and it worked fine after that.

Tony


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## mdnky (Oct 28, 2007)

Thought I might point this out (from a few posts on this forum and quite a few elsewhere on the net):

It seems as if the vast majority of those who are having major issues with Leopard installs also have 3rd party applications/hacks that "mess with" or "modify" the OS, the finder, the theme, the way applications launch, etc.


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## 707av8or (Oct 28, 2007)

Captain Code said:


> BTW, if you have any specific questions, post them here and I'll answer them if I can.


All the Leopard hype about new features and no details of the downsides, like:

Q1: How many (or what estimated percentage) of the 300 hyped new Leopard features wont work on a G-3 thru G-5 PowerMac (non-Intel) machine?

Q2: Is Classic still supported, or will I have to cast out all my Classic apps and files? They represent a substantial amount of irreplaceable data base and self-generated graphics files on my two G-4 PowerMac machines.


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## Ifrit (Oct 28, 2007)

Q2: Classic is dead and unsupported. Even if you strip the files from a 10.4 install it won't work anymore.


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## Mikuro (Oct 28, 2007)

You might be interested in running Mac OS 9 through SheepShaver, an emulator/virtualizer. It's not easy to set up (believe me, I've tried!), but there are some tutorials out there that might help. See http://uneasysilence.com/archive/2006/08/7352/

SheepShaver works on PPC Macs at near-native speed, and on Intel Macs through slower emulation. I'm not really sure how slow, since I've never used it.


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## Captain Code (Oct 28, 2007)

707av8or said:


> Q1: How many (or what estimated percentage) of the 300 hyped new Leopard features wont work on a G-3 thru G-5 PowerMac (non-Intel) machine?



None will work on a G3 as Leopard requires an 867 MHz G4 at the minimum.  Some PhotoBooth effects require an Intel CPU.  The G5 should be just fine for nearly everything.  All the Core technologies are scalable and automatically work on the available GPUs and CPUs.

I can't think of anything that doesn't work.  On a G5.  If you have a G4, you need a graphics card that can handle Core Image.

You can find all the requirements here 
http://www.apple.com/macosx/techspecs/


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## Rhisiart (Oct 28, 2007)

Captain Code said:


> None will work on a G3 as Leopard requires an 867 MHz G4 at the minimum


Has anyone tried installing Leopard on a 800 MHz G4 and seeing whether it works or if there are performance issues?


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## fryke (Oct 28, 2007)

AFAIK it runs okay. I've heard from at least one person with a G4/800 iMac who thinks it's quite alright in fact. You have to trick the installer, though. Just booting from the 10.5 DVD won't do.


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## nukegirl (Oct 28, 2007)

My recommendation is to peruse Apple's support discussions, because SO many people have had the 'blue screen of death' at the very end of installing. My recommendation is to do these two things:


1. Reboot into single-user mode (hold Cmd-S while booting machine)
2. Follow the directions OSX gives you when you get to the prompt (I think these were them - just type the two commands it tells you to):
fsck -fy /
/sbin/mount -uw /
3. Remove the following files:
rm -rf /Library/Preference Panes/Application Enhancer.prefpane
rm -rf /Library/Frameworks/Application Enhancer.framework
rm -rf /System/Library/SystemConfiguration/Application Enhancer.bundle
rm -rf /Library/Preferences/com.unsanity.ape.plist
4. Exit, to continue booting normally
exit

and then when you're reinstalling because the boot doesn't always work, archive and install - trust me.  Then all of my problems were solved.  No more blue screen of death.  Hope that helps!


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## fryke (Oct 28, 2007)

We already have enough threads about these experiences, so this thread is not becoming another stickie, rather I'm merging it with another, already 3 page-long thread.


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## gludwig (Oct 28, 2007)

My first impressions are not good.

I installed Leopard on a PowerBook G4 (1 GB processor, 1 GB RAM) and got a lot of grief out of it.

- First I lost Admin privileges and had to restore them.

- Disk Utility takes FOREVER to repair disk permissions compared to 10.4

- Applications don't quit properly. They disappear from view, but they stay in an active mode in the dock, in the Force Quit window, when you Tab through applications, etc.. Force Quit doesn't do anything to them, done via the Dock or the Apple menu. They just stay there until I restart.

- I can't restart. The gear spins and spins until I finally shut the power off.

So far Leopard is a bust for me. I'm sorry I didn't wait for 10.5.1.


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## Lt Major Burns (Oct 28, 2007)

there's a niggling feeling in the back of my head that just seems to feel that leopard wasn't really designed with PPC macs in mind... it works, it works fine, but my dual G5, it felt like Tiger unlocked it's potential, where as leopard seems to have passed it over into feeling a bit obsolete.

also, i still think it's quite ugly.   although tiger was inconsistent, i think overall, each application looked _nicer_.


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## icemanjc (Oct 28, 2007)

I've been pretty happy with it on my iMac G5 and MacBook, I haven't had any problems, so I don't know why everybody else is.


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## joe_burban (Oct 28, 2007)

Leopard works great for me.  Generally, seems faster than Tiger.

WiFi signal is far stronger.

DVD burning seems to have been limited to 2x (maximum).  However, my drive was spec'd as 8x (maximum).  I haven't done any digging to solve this problem.

My computer is a G4 1.67GHz with 2Gb RAM.


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## everettm (Oct 28, 2007)

Since I had already read that 10.5 wouldn't be supported on G4 less than 867 MHz, I decided to bite the bullet and get a new machine. I have one of the original Powerbook Titaniums. Since I'm writing this on that same machine, you can tell everything didn't go fine for me. Its really (at this point) just one issue: I do everything wireless so that I don't have ethernet cables laying around all over. I cannot log into my Linksys wcg200, I think because I can't enter the WEP password. The new machine had 10.4 loaded, and I *did* connect before I upgraded. No joy now.

I'm hoping they fix that soon. Looking for my problems in the Apple forums, I see there are a *lot* of problems with networking. I guess they need to fire some developers and QA people that they let it get so bad.

Once I can actually *use* the machine, I'll likely be happier.


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## eric2006 (Oct 28, 2007)

On a PowerBook (1 GHz), Leopard is running well. It's at least as fast as Tiger, but some UI effects are less-than-snappy (but very usable).

I also installed it on a 800 MHz PowerMac (for Time Machine backups), and it has been running without a hitch. Installed via TDM.


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## jcshook (Oct 29, 2007)

Install of Leopard was fast and smooth. 
Initial impressions are all good. 
All hardware works without additional drivers/fuss. This includes SATA controller and SATA drives, PowerLogix processor, USB 2.0 PCI, Flashed ATI 9800 Pro, Logitech QCam Ultra, Logitech MX laser, external hard drives and printer/scanners.
Tested OS software, so far, everything works. iTunes imported without a hitch, Mail setup a breeze. Even Photobooth works, and iChat is _much smoother_ than in Tiger.
From System setup to System Preferences, the flow and layout has been smooth, intuitive, and new features appear at each turn (or right click)!
I like the new Dock, and Cover Flow is way cool, and works smooth as silk!
I didn't expect such good overall results, and am really happy with the experience to now. (really, don't mean to rave, but)...,
Third party app's are yet to come, and though there may be some let downs, overall, this has been a great upgrade!::love::


G4 450 AGP, 2ghz PowerLogix, 2gb RAM
Raptor and Maxtor SATA, Seagate ATA, DVR-109
ATI Radeon 9800 Pro, 23" ACD


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## bbloke (Oct 29, 2007)

rhisiart said:


> Has anyone tried installing Leopard on a 800 MHz G4 and seeing whether it works or if there are performance issues?


Hi rhisiart, it seems MacFixit is carrying an article about this subject:



			
				MacFixit said:
			
		

> Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard) requires Mac with an Intel, PowerPC G5, or PowerPC G4 processor running at 867MHz or faster, and will refuse to install on any systems running at a lower clock speed (even dual 800 MHz systems are excluded). However, there's an easy way to trick your lower-than-867 MHz Mac into running Leopard: install the operating system on an external FireWire hard drive using a computer that _does_ meet the minimum clock speed requirements. You can then use that drive to _boot a Mac running at less than 867 MHz_ (see the screenshot below for proof).
> 
> Better yet, you can hook a pre-867 MHz Mac up to a Mac that does meet official Leopard requirements and boot it in Target Disk Mode, then install Leopard directly. This _should_ (we haven't yet tested this method) allow you to boot Leopard from the system's internal hard drive.
> 
> ...


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## ora (Oct 29, 2007)

Loving it except the lack of InputManagers, hence my recent thread.


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## MacNewb (Oct 29, 2007)

I wish that in spaces, you could open a new safari window by clicking on the icon instead of right-clicking "open new window".   And that iCal had us holidays.  that's it so far.


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## Lt Major Burns (Oct 29, 2007)

dual screens haven't really been taken into account with a lot of the new features...  time machine, if a window is on the secondary screen, has to slide accross into the main screen.  all looks a bit awkward.  spaces is hideous and clunky on dual screens, as although each space is the size of both screens, it only actually supports one screen to view it (ie, doesn't matter how many spaces you have, they'll all display on one screen, like 8 on one screen, not 4 on either side).  dealbreaker, and i've stopped using it now.  and the new mosaic screen saver only displays on one screen, no way round it...

considering exposé (and other exposé based stuff like dashboard) works completely accross two screens, treating it as one big screen (as it should), that time machine and spaces appears to ignore it seems strange.

my dissatisfaction with leopard is accelerating.


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## filmdesign (Oct 29, 2007)

I am back on 10.4.10, Leopard destroyed my computer, killed my Key Chain, Made Photoshop CS3 useless, killed Safari and all my widgets, Disc Utility could not repair over 4) modified files????after numerous attempts(it told me the files were modified and that it could not repair them)
Everytime I restarted thye computer a new set of problems would appear, thank you Super Duper..I am back with Tiger until the HUGE compatibility issues are fixed..scary


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## icemanjc (Oct 29, 2007)

bbloke said:


> Hi rhisiart, it seems MacFixit is carrying an article about this subject:




I did exactly that the day Leopard came out, it may work on G4's, but it won't work on g3's since at startup on my iBook G3 900mhz, it just spins and spins the little circular thing below the apple.


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## ttgood (Oct 29, 2007)

I installed 10.5 on my PowerBook G4, 1.5 GHz, 512 MB Ram. When it restarts on completion of the install, the desktop appears for about 5 seconds, then the dock and the icons disappear. I have tried disk repair, starting up from the install disk, nothing works. So far my experience with OS 10.5 has not been good.


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## arninetyes (Oct 30, 2007)

Okay, after it took four days to receive my overnight delivery from Apple, sent through FedEx, I finally got my copy of Leopard.

After reading about all the issues with installation, it seemed to me that Leopard was not so much unpredictably buggy as it was more predictably incompatible with certain 3rd party software.  (Unlike Windoughs, which is often incompatible with Microsloth drivers and apps)

So, I backed up everything of importance, then did a complete erase and clean install.

No problems, no issues at all.  It runs smooth and fast - and it feels a bit snappier than Tiger did on my Powerbook G4.  1.5GHz, 1.25GB Ram, 60GB hd.


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## DJ Dylan (Oct 30, 2007)

I'm having the problem of being unable to install Leopard. It wont find the hard drive when I go to install it.


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## DJ Dylan (Oct 30, 2007)

When it gets to "Select A Destination"...it's blank. Help!


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## eric2006 (Oct 30, 2007)

What is your main drive formatted as? What kind of computer do you have?


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## DJ Dylan (Oct 30, 2007)

2Ghz Intel Core 2 Duo MacBook...main drive is formatted as GUID. I have no clue why it isnt recognizing the drive.


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## eric2006 (Oct 30, 2007)

You might want to try formating the drive from Disk Utility again, if you have nothing on the drive. Some installers require a previous Tiger installation - is this the case, or do you have the retail version?


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## DJ Dylan (Oct 30, 2007)

I'm up to date on my Tiger installation, currently running 10.4.10. If need be, I can reformat the drive, but thats really the last thing I want to do, I'll have to back up about 50gb worth of music and other stuff.


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## DeltaMac (Oct 30, 2007)

You should first try testing the drive with Disk Utility, which you can find in the Utilities menu at the first screen of the installer. (Do the Repair Disk, and not the Repair Disk Permissions - then quit Disk Utility to return to the installer). This seems to often bring the drive back into view (somehow)


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## DJ Dylan (Oct 30, 2007)

Okay....I'll go try that and see if that helped any.


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## DJ Dylan (Oct 30, 2007)

No luck. It wont even give me the ability to do repair disk, repair permissions, verify permissions...nothing.


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## eric2006 (Oct 30, 2007)

If you have another intel mac, you could also install with TDM.


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## DJ Dylan (Oct 30, 2007)

This is the only one I have. Nobody has any idea why a essentially brand new computer is giving me this problem?


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## eric2006 (Oct 30, 2007)

I did a brief search, and some claim that if you leave it at the detecting mode for a while, it will find the drive. 

see also:
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=5653515


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## DJ Dylan (Oct 30, 2007)

Thanks so much. I'm gonna try the things that you've recommended, and those in that link you sent me to. Hopefully this will fix it. I'll let you know


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## DJ Dylan (Oct 30, 2007)

eric2006 said:


> I did a brief search, and some claim that if you leave it at the detecting mode for a while, it will find the drive.
> 
> see also:
> http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=5653515



Thanks a lot! After about 5 minutes or so the drive showed up. It's now installing as we speak (I'm on my fiancee's computer).


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## DJ Dylan (Oct 31, 2007)

Thanks everyone for the help. I got it installed and am LOVING it so far.


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## Rhisiart (Oct 31, 2007)

At last, I am now Leopardised.

It is difficult for me to comment on performance, as I have just switched to a new Mac Mini from my old G4 800 MHz (which has been temporarily put out to graze).

I have a few grumbles.


The Dock behaves oddly.
There is still no easy way to lock the dock.
IMHO the eye candy is a bit tacky (of course beauty lies in the eye of the beholder).
I don't think the Finder is that greatly improved.
Stacks seems a bit gimmicky. It also now prevents me directly accessing files and programmes without having to open the Finder (which I could do under Tiger).
I do like Time Machine though.


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## fryke (Oct 31, 2007)

[ The odd dock behaviour: Features. Stacks work like that. Your home folder shows as an application folder because the application folder insider your home folder is alphabetically first. You can solve that by putting an icon there you like and call it aaa.jpg or something.  ]


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## Rhisiart (Oct 31, 2007)

fryke said:


> [ The odd dock behaviour: Features. Stacks work like that. Your home folder shows as an application folder because the application folder insider your home folder is alphabetically first. You can solve that by putting an icon there you like and call it aaa.jpg or something.  ]


Right, I see. Thanks.


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## stu-b (Oct 31, 2007)

Looks good but....

No longer recognised airport utility, lost all printer settings, functionality within pdf search not as good as tiger, can't move stacked files in bulk to different location. When reinstalled all printers it could not default correctly from print icon (came up with different name and did not print).

It's early days though- I've only played for an hour so far (should have booked a week off), I'm sure I will overcome these hurdles as apple does not do 'degeneration'.


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## aicul (Oct 31, 2007)

_I am posting this for information._

The Leopard installation will check whether the iMac meets minimum requirements. However it has a bug. When it decides to refuse the install it either proposes a "restart" or an "ok" button. Pressing either button just re-boots the iMac and DOES NOT EJECT the Leopard install CD. Hence initiating a endless loop.

To eject the disk I found this solution.

1. Force switch of the iMac - pull the plug if you have to.

2. Swith the iMac on and BEFORE the bong sound press CMD ALT O F keys (yes all four at the same time). 

3. Keep them pressed until some console like text appears on the screen

4. Enter "EJECT CD" and return. The CD should come out.

5. Enter "MAC-BOOT" and return. The iMac reboots.


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## Qion (Oct 31, 2007)

aicul said:


> _I am posting this for information._
> 
> The Leopard installation will check whether the iMac meets minimum requirements. However it has a bug. When it decides to refuse the install it either proposes a "restart" or an "ok" button. Pressing either button just re-boots the iMac and DOES NOT EJECT the Leopard install CD. Hence initiating a endless loop.
> 
> ...




You can also simply hold down the "Option/Alt" key while restarting to view a graphical menu of boot volumes.


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## Giaguara (Oct 31, 2007)

Or keep mouse button down at startup to force the disk to eject.


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## Rhisiart (Oct 31, 2007)

Stacks is disappointing.

Under pre-Leopard I could place my Home folder in the dock next to the trash can. 

Holding down the Home folder icon allowed me to scroll up to any folder and then scroll left or right (depending on the size of the dock) directly to the file I wanted to open (let's say 'Mr Bean's Trip to the Dentist' movie).

With stacks, I have to: (i) click on the Home folder icon in the dock, (ii) click on the Movies folder, and (iii) click on the said movie.

Is this progress?


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## fryke (Oct 31, 2007)

It's the dumbing down of the user. Just think about the pro user who now browses thousands of text files with CoverFlow! It's all great. I'm sure the new 3D dock also helps graphics designers. As a bad example or something. Plus the whole Sci-Fi theme of the background and the TimeMachine will probably lure *ALL* geeks to Mac OS X.

Instead of Stacks use something like LaunchBar.


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## Captain Code (Oct 31, 2007)

I'm over stacks as well. They're useless for putting your Applications folder there.  Now I just use Spotlight as an app launcher.  I do use QuickLook quite a bit especially for ppt and doc files because office apps take forever to launch.


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## Mikuro (Oct 31, 2007)

I still haven't used Leopard, but it sounds like Apple has not quite shaken the habit of taking features that would make awesome _additions_ and turning them into poor _replacements_ for things that were perfectly fine in the first place.

It seems like they're especially fond of doing this when it comes to the Dock.

I was psyched for stacks. It's a long overdue feature. But it never even occurred to me that Apple would use it as a replacement for folders in the Dock. That's just bizarre.

I wonder if there's a hidden feature to change that back to normal, like with the 3D dock appearance.

*sigh* Well, I'm sure some intrepid shareware/freeware developer will find some way to fill this void.


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## Qion (Oct 31, 2007)

fryke said:


> It's the dumbing down of the user. Just think about the pro user who now browses thousands of text files with CoverFlow! It's all great. I'm sure the new 3D dock also helps graphics designers. As a bad example or something. Plus the whole Sci-Fi theme of the background and the TimeMachine will probably lure *ALL* geeks to Mac OS X.
> 
> Instead of Stacks use something like LaunchBar.



As a graphic designer, I agree that their execution of the dock was half-assed. It's also relatively distracting, especially in that they mixed 2D icons with a 3D plane... that's just stupid.


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## aicul (Nov 1, 2007)

I am writing because several of my purchased software do not work anymore. And not the cheapest .. Adobe creative suite.. amongst them.

Now I understand I do not have the latest versions, but the software I have is less than one year old. And as it is not cheap (that includes the upgrades) I am not inclined to go shopping to upgrade all my software just because I installed Leopard.

I would expect majors, that have worked long term with Apple, to ensure some free "Leopard upgrade".

After all the boxes do say "System requirements : MAC OSX 10.4.6 or later" which I believe matches Leopard specifications (10.5.0).

It is extreemely annoying that after an upgrade of the OSX you discover you may want to downgrade because key software you use does not work anymore. This hurts the software vendors and Apple.


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## fryke (Nov 1, 2007)

It's a really bad thing with Adobe nowadays. They just stopped caring, it seems. Their thinking goes like this:

Adobe CS 2 cost much more than Leopard or Windows Vista. You'll upgrade to the next OS when your _graphics suite_ is ready, not the other way 'round.


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## DeltaMac (Nov 1, 2007)

Here's a good document listing the various Adobe apps, and Leopard compatibility notes.
http://www.adobe.com/support/products/pdfs/leopardsupport.pdf


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## Captain Code (Nov 1, 2007)

CS3 works for me but I don't actually use it that much so I can't say that everything works.  Photoshop launches and works for what I've used it for.  You really need to check before installing an OS update that all your applications are going to work though, especially on a machine you make money with.


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## fryke (Nov 1, 2007)

CS3's fine for me so far.


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## aicul (Nov 1, 2007)

Captain Code said:


> You really need to check before installing an OS update that all your applications are going to work though, especially on a machine you make money with.



Fully agree but where is the fun? Ok, next time I will not pre-order and I will wait for 10.6.1 "Kitten". If everyone does this, Apple will not cash in $500'000'000.- in one week-end but in a few months. I think everyone has to gain from free software upgrades that are ready with OS release.

Furthermore, look at the vendor web sites, no one really knows whether they will be compatible, adobes own response is a real mockery for a software designer at +800$ a suite. And success/failure of software operation is quite hazardous as some threads show.

And a last point for Adobe, I would rather downgrade my Mac to Tiger to run CS and use the upgrade money I do not give adobe towards a new iMac for family fun. Thats nearly 30% of the cash found.

I can pay, but I may not pay who is expecting to receive the cash.


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## Captain Code (Nov 1, 2007)

Well, I don't listen to my own advice but I don't really mind having to work around things.  I was running the developer betas and got sick of 2 partitions so I ran the beta full time.  But I only use it for school, not making money.


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## aicul (Nov 1, 2007)

I conclude your are more technical in nature. Tell me, is there a possibility that these malfunctions are linked to the, apparently, greatly revamped permissions part of the OS? (-> see Get Info)

If that were the case could rest (ugh 777) of the permission be a solution? 

But somehow my unix skills have failed, in terminal as sudo I cannot pass this drammatic reset and I even tried - crazy I know - single user login (cmd-S startup).


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## Rhisiart (Nov 1, 2007)

aicul said:


> I am writing because several of my purchased software do not work anymore. And not the cheapest .. Adobe creative suite.. amongst them.


I have got InDesign 2, Acrobat 5 and Go Live CS (i.e. GoLive 7) working on Leopard. Illustrator 10 just wouldn't install. Photoshop 7 did, but then kept crashing.

The thing is, I didn't expect anyone of them to work, so 3 out of 5 ain't bad.

I spoke with Adobe support and they didn't believe me.


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## Lt Major Burns (Nov 1, 2007)

CS3 working flawlessly this end.

oh, and did a clean install yesterday, and a side effect of it was my Airport problems disappeared. (my OSX partition was full so had to make it bigger, and live partition wasn't working.  clean install time!)


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## aicul (Nov 1, 2007)

Hate to upset you M. Burns, but I did do a clean install. I also used the case sensitive hard disk format. Was that what you used.. could be the cause, maybe? 

Open to any scientific black magic to get back rolling.


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## lurk (Nov 2, 2007)

aicul, 

CS3 no likey the case sensitivity


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## Mudhut (Nov 2, 2007)

I have been using a Mac for about 4 years now, using 10.3.9 happily for the last couple. Everything worked fine, nothing crashed and everything happened when you asked it to.

I stupidly bought Leopard and have now wasted about a day trying to get everything working.

Filemaker didn't work so had to wait for them to release a patch.

Appleworks 6 does work at all, MYOB crashes when you try and print from various sections and finally Photoshop Elements also doesn't work anymore.

I bought a Mac to escape this sort of instability!! I know Microsoft own a lot of Apple but their ethos is evidently filtering through - i.e. make your customers pay for your rubbish software and just before they release a new version we'll give them something that works to try and make them forget how bad it really was to begin with!!!!


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## Lt Major Burns (Nov 2, 2007)

i went through the exact same hatred, when i upgraded from 10.3.9 to 10.4.0.

Panther is just about the most stable OS in the world.  it's also stable _because_ it's 10.3.9.  it had 9 revisions to get it to be that stable.  

10.5.0 is new, there's a lot of very new technology in there, and being on the bleeding edge of technology sometimes means getting hurt.

the problems you are having, i'm guessing, can all be attributed to to third party incompatiblities. Apple have done a very good job removing a lot of these, but there will always be fallacies that only the developer of the incompatible program can fix with a '10.5 patch'.

Panther, when that first came out, was _terrible_.  but by 10.3.3, was fine.  same with Tiger.  10.5 is actually a lot better at the same timeframe.


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## wstubbe (Nov 2, 2007)

Installed Leopard last night, chose the "upgrade" option despite everything I've read.  So far everything is working flawlessly, and it seems much faster on my late 2006 iMac w/ 2 gigs of ram. I love it!


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## debiso (Nov 2, 2007)

I am very pleased.  There were some app incompatibilities, but most have been resolved quickly.  I have been a hard fast PC guy for a long time.  The upgrade to vista is what pushed me to get a MAC.  I have never been through such hell before!!!  I will never go back to a windows PC.  This upgrade was one of the most painless ever as far as a PC guy is concerned.


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## Rhisiart (Nov 2, 2007)

Lt Major Burns said:


> .....the problems you are having, i'm guessing, can all be attributed to to third party incompatiblities. Apple have done a very good job removing a lot of these, but there will always be fallacies that only the developer of the incompatible program can fix with a '10.5 patch'.


I can bear that out. Intego's has produced an update for ContentBarrier, so it is presumably Leopard savvy. It isn't. Three Kernal Panics in 24 hours. My investigation revealed ContentBarrier to be the guilty partner.

Lesson? Maybe don't install 3rd party apps until 10.5.1?


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## bbloke (Nov 2, 2007)

rhisiart said:


> I can bear that out. Intego's has produced an update for ContentBarrier, so it is presumably Leopard savvy. It isn't. Three Kernal Panics in 24 hours. My investigation revealed ContentBarrier to be the guilty partner.


Hmm, does it install kernel extensions?


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## Rhisiart (Nov 2, 2007)

bbloke said:


> Hmm, does it install kernel extensions?


Probably.


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## andyhargreaves (Nov 2, 2007)

Was wondering if anyone had advice for installing on my macbook this weekend, i.e. clean install, archive and install, or upgrade from 10.4.10? Anything particular to watch out for?

Andy


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## DJ Dylan (Nov 2, 2007)

If you dont have the capability to backup your files, just doing the upgrade install from 10.4.10 (which I did) is going to be fine. One thing you might look out for is this....if your HD doesnt show up at first, just wait. It took a few minutes for the hard drive to show up when I went to install it.


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## aicul (Nov 2, 2007)

YOU MAY WONDER WHY I AM WRITING IN UPPERCASE... ITS BECAUSE MY KEYBOARD IS NOW INVERTED. CAPS LIGHT-OFF = UPPERCASE, NOW CAPS=ON = lowercase. This state of chaos my Macs (3) have entered since Leopard is dismal.

Frankly, I strongly believe that Apple has not given 10.5.0 enough attention to make it what I call a robust OS. A strong supporter of Mac for years (since 1988). I have, today, for the first time, advised friends not to upgrade to Leopard. For myself, I will downgrade.

I am sad as I sincerely think Leopard will offer a lot, but its present state must be improved. One week of fighting is sufficient for me. *I prefer to play and enjoy my mac.*

See you when 10.5.1 arrives...


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## Rhisiart (Nov 2, 2007)

aicul said:


> I am sad as I sincerely think Leopard will offer a lot, but its present state must be improved. One week of fighting is sufficient for me. *I prefer to play and enjoy my mac.* See you when 10.5.1 arrives...


This makes me wonder as to who tests the exclusive beta Leopard release?

Surely enough pre-designated testers can work out most of the teething problems so we don't have to rely on 10.5.1 for a robust enough system?

Or am I being naive?


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## arninetyes (Nov 2, 2007)

I fully understand the pain of upgrading OSs (still use a Dell for much of my work).  But, as much trouble as I've had with various Windoughs versions, the Leopard install was a breeze.  However, there have been a couple of glitches that my little Powerbook never displayed under Tiger - of course, I was running 10.4.10 - it was rock solid and stable.

I'm looking forward to 10.5.2.  Should be excellent by then.

Vista?  I highly recommend it -_ to competitors and rivals_.


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## Axlin (Nov 2, 2007)

Here are my experiences with Leopard (I just installed it yesterday).

Overall, my opinion of it is very high. However, there are some things that I do not like about it at all, and things that irked me during installation and set up. I'll write this article in a "pros" and "cons" format, starting with the "cons."

*The Cons:*
_Installation Process:_ The general installation process is as you'd expect - nothing really new here. However, I actually had to manually mount my hard drives in the first step of installation via the Terminal (for those that don't know and might need to know, the command for your primary hard drive is "diskutil list disk0," followed by "diskutil mount disk0."). After that, I had to open up Disk Utility and wait for Disk Utility to recognize Macintosh HD. After that, I was able to select my drive, and everything went smoothly. I chose to erase the drive and install fresh because I had a lot of input managers that would break, and I didn't want to deal with cleaning them all out. Ultimately, the installer should have simply recognized the hard drives right off the bat; a quick search in the Apple discussion board reveals that this is in fact a common problem. I couldn't imagine myself trying to explain to my mother, for instance, how to mount a hard drive through the Terminal in order to install Leopard. That's pretty unacceptable.

_Stacks:_
Stacks are a great concept, but they need some work. I'm sure you've all heard the complains, so I'll keep it brief. They just need to allow you to choose whatever permanent icon you want for each stack, and allow it to browse through sub-folders. After that, stacks would be awesome.

_Transparent Menu Bar & 3D Dock:_
The menu bar _really_ needs an on/off switch for the transparency. I mean, really; on 90% of my  wallpapers, the transparency looks hideous. I got the menu bar to a nice gray to match the overall GUI by resizing all of my wallpapers to 1280x778 (to batch resize at specific dimensions, I used this app - hold down the Return key to get past the nags) and then running them through this workflow (alt host here). My native resolution is 1280x800; I put 778 because the menu bar is 22px high; the workflow adds a 22px high black or white border to the top of the image, making it 1280x800, and matching that border up nicely with the menu bar, making it a solid gray or white. I was able to do this for all of my wallpapers (approx. 550 of them) in roughly 20 minutes.

As for the Dock, there are solutions out there. Just do a quick Google search and I promise you that you'll find dozens of solutions to make it 2D, and even a few solutions to change the appearance of the 3D Dock; I made my Dock 3D, but with a black shiny surface. It looks really nice.
My Dock solution: Picture | Download & Instructions

_Misc.:_
The only thing left really is that the Finder treats my Windows partition in a strange manner. It categorizes it with CDs/DVDs/iPods, so unless I set Finder not to show these devices, it always shows my Windows partition on the desktop, and I have to eject it to get rid of it. That's pretty strange, as it should recognize it as a hard drive.

*The Pros:*
_Safari:_
Safari 3 flat-out rules, even if it's incompatible with a lot of input managers. It's blazing fast, zips through even Digg's comments pages (which are notoriously slow on all browsers), and has far better reliability & general site compatibility so far than Safari 2. And the new features are excellent, like prompting you when quitting with multiple windows/tabs/downloads open, or restoring the last session in the event of a crash, and reordering tabs.

_Mail:_
Finally I have RSS support in Mail. I also like the notes/to do features; I just wish it didn't break my HTTPmail plugin.

_Spaces & Time Machine:_
Spaces & Time Machine I feel are what really makes Leopard better than Tiger. I have no complaints about either one, and I can confidently say that I am not sad to see Carbon Copy Cloner & Virtue Desktops go in lieu of these apps.

_QuickLook & CoverFlow:_
File browsing has never been so fast or pretty. I'm really happy with these features.

So there you have it: my impressions of Leopard. Overall, I would say that it's definitely worth upgrading to, despite its quirks. Remember that there are workarounds for just about everything.


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## Captain Code (Nov 3, 2007)

Axlin,

Many people have found that if you wait a while(5+ minutes) eventually the drive will show up and allow you to install.  No one outside of Apple seems to know why yet but it should work if you give it time.


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## eric2006 (Nov 3, 2007)

Captain Code said:


> Axlin,
> 
> Many people have found that if you wait a while(5+ minutes) eventually the drive will show up and allow you to install.  No one outside of Apple seems to know why yet but it should work if you give it time.



From what I've read, it is performing some sort of disk-check/maintenance.

Also, I'd like to note that Front Row now "just works" on previously unsupported machines.


----------



## icemanjc (Nov 3, 2007)

Leopard has been really slow lately, and I have no idea whats wrong because I've hardly used it.


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## Terminator182 (Nov 3, 2007)

I seemed to have missed a lot of the complaints here. I have had very minimal problems using Leopard. I got my new iMac on Monday and it came with the Leopard install disc-no problems installing or transferring everything from my old Mac. First build was pretty disgusting (iMovie crashing at launch, dashboard funky etc.) but 20 minutes into my experience software update launched and nearly every program had an update. I downloaded and installed that and no I have 0 issues. Favorites: I love Webclip and Safari 3. No more Firefox for me! Spaces is solid and I use stacks seamlessly all the time now. Quick look will save countless minutes opening and closing programs and the new Finder is rock solid. Overall: very impressed, Leopard was worth the wait. Still disappointed at the new iMovie though.


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## icemanjc (Nov 3, 2007)

I finnally reformatted again and it seems to be doing fine.
Edit: I noticed that when you do screen sharing the username is case sensitive and it won't work if its lowercase, but AFP isn't.


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## Mario8672 (Nov 4, 2007)

First impression: it feels like a beta version...


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## andyhargreaves (Nov 4, 2007)

Mario8672 said:


> First impression: it feels like a beta version...



In what sense?  I like it.


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## Mario8672 (Nov 4, 2007)

Just look around the forums, too many bugs. Some things were better in tiger.


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## Mikuro (Nov 4, 2007)

Mario8672 said:


> Just look around the forums, too many bugs. Some things were better in tiger.


A lot of people said the same thing about Tiger. (I know I did!)

From what I've heard, Leopard seems better in comparison to Tiger than Tiger was to Panther. 10.4.0 was horrible, and even 10.4.10 is a step back from Panther in many ways (most notably, Spotlight is a giant pain, especially when compared to Panther's inline search).


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## Lt Major Burns (Nov 5, 2007)

Spotlight is greatly improved in 10.5, mikuro. although not back to panther style searching, the addition of proper google-like boolean, the addition of some context is something they've not really shouted about enough... for example, if two identical results come up, the main location difference will appear after in in grey, like this: 

Images
   rainbows.jpg - Macintosh HD
   rainbows.jpg - Photos Backup

also, the speed and accuracy is MUCH improved over tiger.  99% of the time now, i type in 3 or 4 letters and hit enter straight away without looking, as it will have found what i wanted that quickly.  it's brilliant.


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## Axlin (Nov 5, 2007)

Lt Major Burns said:


> Spotlight is greatly improved in 10.5, mikuro. although not back to panther style searching, the addition of proper google-like boolean, the addition of some context is something they've not really shouted about enough... for example, if two identical results come up, the main location difference will appear after in in grey, like this:
> 
> Images
> rainbows.jpg - Macintosh HD
> ...


Yeah all of that is definitely true, but I feel that Spotlight has actually taken a step back from Tiger in the sense that it doesn't even look into the Library folders. Now I know that this isn't an issue for most people, but for those of us that really like to dig into their systems and get their hands dirty, this is an astronomical setback. I actually have to navigate in Finder to the Library folder in order to search it. I really wish Leopard wasn't dumbed down like that.


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## Lt Major Burns (Nov 5, 2007)

have you tried adding a library folder to the omit list, then removing it again (the way you force indexed a folder in tiger)?


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## Mikuro (Nov 5, 2007)

I've heard a lot of good things about Leopard's implementation of Spotlight. I look forward to putting it through the paces as soon as I upgrade. I was just talking about Tiger's implementation of Spotlight, which was a big let-down for me.

Axlin: Apparently you can get Spotlight to search through Libraries and system files, but you need to go out of your way a bit. See http://www.macworld.com/weblogs/mac911/2007/10/spotsyssearch/index.php


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## Axlin (Nov 5, 2007)

Lt Major Burns said:


> have you tried adding a library folder to the omit list, then removing it again (the way you force indexed a folder in tiger)?


Hm I never would have thought of doing that. I omitted the System folder, /Library, and ~/Library and then removed them from the omission list, but now it's only looking in my ~/Library folder, and even then it's coming up with incomplete results. It's still completely ignoring my /Library and /System folders. 

Edit: Mikuro, I just saw your post and I looked at that link. While that is a workaround, what I want (and expect) is for Spotlight to just... find the files I want. I don't want to have to pop open a new window, select System Files from a drop-down menu, and then select Include in another drop-down menu. Spotlight should just find these files when I press Cmd-Space and type them in like it did in Tiger. I really wish Leopard didn't make it so incredibly inconvenient for the people that know what they're doing to get things done.


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## Lt Major Burns (Nov 6, 2007)

OS X can be a pro OS, but at the same time is a consumer level product that needs to be idiot proof.  denying access to critical system files out of the box goes a long way to maintain this.

for the pro people, it's not impossible. you have the choice.


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## sinclair_tm (Nov 6, 2007)

ok, i've installed it on 2 g4s.  one is the one in my sig.  it doesn't like my flashed 6800.  it hangs for 6 min when booting.  the installer did it too.  but after the 6min wait, it does load and works (and looks)fine.  i like stacks, and the the glass like dock.  but i don't like the glowing blue triangles they use to show a launched app.  they are next to impossible to see in the reflection in the dock.  if i could keep the reflections, but make the triangles darker, that would be cool.  and speaking of color, tell me why after 6 revisions, they still only have blue and gray for the menus?!?!  that is my longest running gripe with os x.  even vista fixed that in windows.  it can't be that hard to add the other basic colors like os 9 had -red, orange, yellow, green, purple, and brown.  thats all i ask, give other basic colors for the menus.
i also installed it on an ibook g4 with 1ghz cpu.  that went flawlessly and doesn't seem bad at all.  but because it is my school computer, and i need 100% reliability, i'll wait till the semester is over before going to leopard.  that should give time to make sure apps i use are 10.5 compatible, and 10.5.1 or 10.5.2 be out.
i'd go ahead and use it as my main os on my desktop if it wasn't having issues with my non-apple 6800, but i'm too impatient and don't want to wait 10min to use my computer after turning it on.  so if anyone knows how to fix that please pm me.  also, if you know how to add other colors to the menu highlight besides apple's blue and gray, pm me too.  i want to keeps apple's look, but just with other highlight colors.


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## Damrod (Nov 6, 2007)

sinclair_tm said:


> ok, i've installed it on 2 g4s.  one is the one in my sig.  it doesn't like my flashed 6800.  it hangs for 6 min when booting.  the installer did it too.  but after the 6min wait, it does load and works (and looks)fine.  i like stacks, and the the glass like dock.  but i don't like the glowing blue triangles they use to show a launched app.  they are next to impossible to see in the reflection in the dock.  if i could keep the reflections, but make the triangles darker, that would be cool.  and speaking of color, tell me why after 6 revisions, they still only have blue and gray for the menus?!?!  that is my longest running gripe with os x.  even vista fixed that in windows.  it can't be that hard to add the other basic colors like os 9 had -red, orange, yellow, green, purple, and brown.  thats all i ask, give other basic colors for the menus.
> i also installed it on an ibook g4 with 1ghz cpu.  that went flawlessly and doesn't seem bad at all.  but because it is my school computer, and i need 100% reliability, i'll wait till the semester is over before going to leopard.  that should give time to make sure apps i use are 10.5 compatible, and 10.5.1 or 10.5.2 be out.
> i'd go ahead and use it as my main os on my desktop if it wasn't having issues with my non-apple 6800, but i'm too impatient and don't want to wait 10min to use my computer after turning it on.  so if anyone knows how to fix that please pm me.  also, if you know how to add other colors to the menu highlight besides apple's blue and gray, pm me too.  i want to keeps apple's look, but just with other highlight colors.



A lot of people have problems with flashed graphic cards during/after the upgrade to Leopard. I read about a quite easy solution regarding the problem, unfortunately it is ATI specific. But maybe you can achieve something similar with your nVidia card (requires Tiger backup or another Tiger machine):



			
				From another message board said:
			
		

> Hey there everyone. This is just a turnaround for those who are in trouble with the new OS X 10.5 with G4 mdd and a PC flashed video card (mine is a Sapphire X800xt) In order to boot from the Leo DVD installer I had to replace the card with the old OEM 9000Pro or machine won't work. Everything's fine with the old card during install and after reboot the Mac
> works stable. But when replacing the X800 only grayscale screen, unusable at all. So just go in >place-your-boot-drive-name-here</system/extension/AppleNDRV/. Now copy the AtiRomXtender file (installed by Ati display) to the same location in Leopard.
> Now my video card works perfect in Leo.


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## Lt Major Burns (Nov 6, 2007)

anyone know how i can get .ai files to preview in quicklook or coverflow?  they're all just standard .ai icons...


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## Damrod (Nov 14, 2007)

Various expiriences with Leopard so far: 

It behaves very differently in our working environment at University compared to Tiger. LDAP authetification is somewhat broken, it's no longer possible to login via network accounts. Tools like NetInfo Manager are gone, it weird to look in different places for the functions. Good it's only one of four Computers I have at my disposal...

A friend bought it, and installed it right away. Many problems, as he has to use stuff like Photoshop and so on for a living. He's back to Tiger since last night, which works a lot better.

I have it at home since yesterday, works like a charm so far. I do not use special software though, only the standard (Adium, Camino, Vienna, Mail, iTunes etc). It's sad there are no sub-layers in Stacks, but they are quite nifty and useful IMHO. I thing I closed the system as good as I could, with the fully functional ipfw configured and running, in combination with LittleSnitch. What really pisses me off though is that I'm asked for my password or any other security related thing basically every two minutes. Why did Apple advertise with a Mac/PC-spot where they mock the Vista Firewall, when they introduce something similar (and annoying) with Leopard?

But apart from that, I really like it. Behaves well on my single G4 MDD with a RADEON 9800 Pro. It's at least as fast as Tiger.


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## ex2bot (Nov 14, 2007)

Yeah, NetInfo is gone completely. 

Doug


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## tdemarco (Nov 16, 2007)

Having used Leopard for the last week or so, I offer the following critique:
1. Quick Look is wonderful but has two deplorable flaws: a) it gives you no way to set a default window size for the preview (which is initially too small to be legible on my large screen); and b) it resizes most files sensibly, but makes an exception for MSWD files, which when resized maintain their initial font size and just fill differently.
2. Cover Flow is also wonderful, but please tell me
o why can't I drop a file onto a folder icon in cover view?
o why did Apple decide to maintain a global view setting instead 
of remembering the view I last used on a given window?
(so when you change view, the change applies to all non-open windows)
o why not generate a cover for a file that has an overridden icon
rather than blow up a tiny icon to make a dumb looking cover?
3. The new dock looks great on the bottom of the screen, but not so great if you put it on either side. 
4. New finder windows won't allow you to narrow the sidebar so that only the icon shows. 10.4 did allow this. Allowing you to change the sidebar width to make it WIDER than the icon plus name strikes me as useless (can anybody think of a use for this feature?).
5. The idea of representing shared devices in the dock as piles of their icons is poorly thought out, since many of these will consist of nothing but piles of folders -- so they will all look the same. Since I had a unique icon for each of mine and they all looked fine in the old dock, I'm underwhelmed by this "improvement."


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## R0b010146 (Nov 20, 2007)

I do not have it personally but I have used it. 

I have many problems setting up a network. 

The connection is in and out and sometimes does not even exist. The WEP Key changes. I have called Apple Support on this subject and have talked all the way up to Supervisors and Engineers. They cannot figure out the problem

There are over 1000 Laptops on this network for a school, macbooks included. This should not be an issue.


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## Damrod (Nov 20, 2007)

Further expirience with Leopard and Networking:

Got Leopard talking to our LDAP-server at work. It can only use it when the connection is not SSL encrypted, though the Tiger Macs can. Which is kind of a bummer, but better than nothing.

On the other hand, Leoapard with an Active Directory is working like a charm. Tiger was always hit and miss, and about 80% of the time it did not work. But Leopard integrates perfect, authenticating the user, automatically mounting the AD storage server where the home directories are located - all how you wish that it would work. Nice, especially as we are in the transitional period of migrating from Novell NetWare to AD. 

If the Leopard Server works as well as Leopard Client does so far with the AD integration, this could take a huge rock from our backs in IT


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## srdill (Dec 3, 2007)

Giaguara said:


> Time for it now that it'll go public ...
> Your first thoughts and impressions using it - post your.



The short story: Two of five installs done in our household so far. The first one scared the hell out of us: crashed the hard drive on the iMac G5 (2 MHz, 1.5 Gb), after two hours on the phone with Apple we took it to the genius bar, Applecare covered the cost of a new hard drive (plus $60 out of pocket to transfer the data), tried a simple install again. HORROR SHOW. Time Machine wouldn't work, didn't see the Mighty Mouse, froze ten times a day, on phone with Apple for hours. Did every version of archive and install (preserve, don't preserve, etc.) and finally have Time Machine working, but forced to use a corded mouse - bluetooth is not seeing the mouse. Many, many lines of detail omitted, let me know if you want to know and I will turn my son loose on you for the gory details.

Next was my daughter's 1 Gb 15" iBook G4. It worked! One persistent challenge - doesn't seem to want to play videos in Quicktime. All she gets is the Q with a question mark blinking over it. Reinstalled QT and Macromedia player, no change. Fixed the Quicktime issue with this from one of the other threads:

http://discussions.apple.com/thread....44398&tstart=0

REALLY not looking forward to putting it on my 1 Gb 17" Powerbook G4 currently running 10.3.9 quite happily. Working w/new 500 Gb external drive to transfer music and backup all files before I do that.

As for what is incompatible, aside from the bluetooth module, Mediafork keeps crashing while ripping DVDs. Previewing JPGs in full screen crashes the Finder consistently. Multitasking in iTunes crashes it, such as playing a song and deleting a playlist. Actually, cannot delete a playlist at all. Finder crashes daily, but it reboots in 10 seconds. And we can't seem to repair disc permissions.

Still beats the pants off the problems my neighbors are having with Vista.

23 years on the Mac and still loving it.


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## Damrod (Dec 4, 2007)

Wow, I honestly can say:

I have not yet met someone who had that severe problems with installing Leopard... this sucks.


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## srdill (Dec 4, 2007)

srdill said:


> REALLY not looking forward to putting it on my 1 Gb 17" Powerbook G4 currently running 10.3.9 quite happily. Working w/new 500 Gb external drive to transfer music and backup all files before I do that.



OK, so here is the story with the 17" G4. The install took a little over an hour to get to reboot. Looked good for a heartbeat, then it refused my password. I'm the administrator - foreboding development! Fortunately my kids have user accounts on this machine and I remember one of their passwords. So now I am in, searching these forums, find a few links to the Apple support pages, and find I cannot boot from the install DVD (is holding down C during boot up my only option? Cannot change start discs - can't authenticate admin, remember?) and I cannot seem to log on as a single user to reset the password that way (numerous restarts while holding down command-S, all to no avail). 

So now I am looking through any and every reference to Leopard permissions while I wait for one of you who have many more experiences than I to share the wealth. I will keep coming back to look, as I have no access to my email. 

Thanks for any and all ideas!


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## Damrod (Dec 4, 2007)

This is a spontanious and possibly far fetch, but:

Can you boot one of your other machines with the DVD? Maybe you could link the Powerbook via Target mode to that Mac and try to reset the password on that way. I never reset my password that way, so I don't know if you can chose the installation to debug/reset the password on. Maybe someone else can comment on that one (no means to check it as I have only one Mac here).


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## srdill (Dec 4, 2007)

Damrod, thanks for the spontaneous thought, that would have been a last resort (before going back to the Genius Bar again). I realized the two words that were keeping me from booting from the DVD *AND* from starting in single user mode: *bluetooth keyboard*.

Yep, I wasted a boatload of time restarting thinking that the CPU could see those keys I was holding down as it booted up. Nope. Bluetooth doesn't load until after login. Needless to say, I got in under single user, did the magic according to the Apple site:

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=306840

... and when I rebooted, it knew who its daddy was once again. Then it took almost an hour to download all the updates and install them. 

We're OK, though. Things are looking good. A little over four hours, but we're almost being productive again. I got lots of reading done, it wasn't all wasted watching the screen.

Thanks for all the help, real and psychic.


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