# Do you pay all your software ?



## toast (Aug 2, 2002)

I would like to know what real proportion of Mac users pay their software. Of course I'm not interested in who does and who does not around here, all I'd like is a reliable statistic.

Definition of paying the software: give the money for it.
Opposite: entering serials, hacking installers, using Carracho, etc.

If I get censored for this, I'd like to know why please, because I don't see what's the problem with such a thread. By the way, Ed's new icon I like a lot 

There it goes !


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## Cheryl (Aug 2, 2002)

Yes, I pay for the software I use. Especially the shareware.


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## SCARECROW (Aug 2, 2002)

For everything except Office vX.

I dont pay for Office, because I hardly ever use it, only to open the odd word doc, etc...

I do a lot of beta testing, so most of my main use software,(Adobe, Macromedia, etc..) I end up getting for free, so... not a big deal. But, even when I first started developing, I paid for just about everything I had...

Write a book or two or create a user site dedicated to a software program, and all of a sudden you get requests from companies to beta test their software.

I am still trying to figure out a way to get into Apple for beta testing... 

Also, I will be making one illegal copy of Jaguar, as I am still pissed about the lack of upgrade pricing... so my father and I will "share" a legit copy...

Anyways... there you have it..


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## culo77 (Aug 2, 2002)

I am one of the few people that use the cracked software but if I like it I GO AND BUY IT  

I think if a programer makes an awesome product, We as a people should pay him or the company manly for gratitude for a job well done.

But dont get me started on some software which is sub-par and over priced. 
Yes Office X looks neato from the one time i used it but DANG $500 for the thing??????? 
shoot for that price i could buy a clamshell on ebay 

_content deleted_

I do say i love cracked software and use it always!!!!!!!!!!!

Crack kills


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## jocknerd (Aug 2, 2002)

I can't figure out whether to pay my software in cash or by check. 

Seriously, I don't buy too much software. I've been spoiled by open source.  There's just too much software out there for free. I haven't found a commercial product that I couldn't live without.


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## stizz (Aug 2, 2002)

I have different feelings on the issue.

If I need to know how to use (program x) in order to find work. And said program costs more than 50 bucks. And I'm trying to feed myself as well keep a roof overhead and my electricity and isp on. And cant afford it.Then I think it's okay to pirate that program.

When I start making money due to the use of that program, then it's time to buy it.

My logic may be flawed, but then so is the whole concept of intellectual property and copyright. 

Should not I be able to go to a public library and check out a copy of Photoshop? I mean software is merely literature written in assembly language. Go deeper and its just a collection of 1's and 0's. Copyrighting that is like making up a random string of numbers and claiming you invented it.

-devils advocate extrodinare-


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## toast (Aug 2, 2002)

> I have different feelings on the issue.
> If I need to know how to use (program x) in order to find work. And said program costs more than 50 bucks. And I'm trying to feed myself as well keep a roof overhead and my electricity and isp on. And cant afford it.Then I think it's okay to pirate that program.



Can I point out the fact that:
1) There are plenty jobs you can do without the software you are talking about.
2) Your employer should provide you the software.
3) Unless that's homework, which means you're earning money on the back of the developers you robbed the product from.



> When I start making money due to the use of that program, then it's time to buy it.


See point 2). You know, the people who write software also have a roof, also eat, also want an ISP. Your logic means the developer starves until you make money of his product, and then you dare buy it. Just imagine if society worked this way 



> My logic may be flawed, but then so is the whole concept of intellectual property and copyright.


Can't see the point, here. If your'e talking of concept here, I recommend Adam Smith, not intellectual property nor copyright .



> Should not I be able to go to a public library and check out a copy of Photoshop? I mean software is merely literature written in assembly language. Go deeper and its just a collection of 1's and 0's. Copyrighting that is like making up a random string of numbers and claiming you invented it.



Books are written for consulting. Not software. I can't build a website with a poetry book. I can't EARN money reading Mary Higgins Clark. You CAN make money pirating Adobe Photoshop. Which means there is a fundamental difference between software and literature, don't you think so ?
But that's a rather funny comparison, in fact , I like it a lot ! LOL


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## Snyper M (Aug 2, 2002)

I purchase programs I can actually afford and need.  If it's not worth the money then it's either not really that useful or simply overpriced.

Right now on m comptuer I have all legit software that I had at one time cracked to see just how indispensible it was.  In this way I've purchased Stuffit, Graphic Converter, Quicktime 6, Windowshade, among a few others possibly.  

I tried office for a whiel and actually ditched it as It's not essential for me and yes the open source alternatives are starting to look promising.  Can't wait for an aqaufied open office.  Most of the itme if you have a program sitting ther for a while you'll find out you actually rarely use it.  I find this with games especially.  I usually test them so to speka ofr a week or two to see i it keeps my interest.  So far only Civilization has managed to do that.  plus I'm a big fan of Sid.  

I must say it's difficult sometimes to legalize software you technically already have, along with mp3s.  But in the end I do feel betetr about it and hope that whateverm oeny I use to patronize these devlopers and artists will lead to even better products in the future.


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## toast (Aug 2, 2002)

> I must say it's difficult sometimes to legalize software you technically already have, along with mp3s. But in the end I do feel betetr about it and hope that whateverm oeny I use to patronize these devlopers and artists will lead to even better products in the future.


You have a big point here MP3 is the second thing everybody steals. In fact, my country has such laws you cannot buy music at a decent price. Stealing MP3s is just a crime no one punishes around here.
* EDIT: While pirating is punished in France ! *


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## stizz (Aug 2, 2002)

Toast,

I think I should not even waste my time responding to you, but I feel compelled to regardless:

      I don't give 2 sh1ts about what you think of me. You can stand there and judge me all you want. 

That being said, let me go on to say that...

When I can afford to buy the software I use, I will. If I use a program and it makes me money, I will buy it.

Maybe I'm bitter, maybe I'm jaded, but I refuse to "not learn and know" a program or OS simply because I cannot afford it.


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## stizz (Aug 2, 2002)

If a job posting says " must be proficient with photoshop and quark" 

how the hell else am I supposed to become proficient with those programs if I cant afford to buy them? Sure the company will supply the software after i get the job, but how do I go about getting the job with thoise skills in the first place.

classic catch-22

hrmm


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## Tigger (Aug 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by stizz _
> *...I mean software is merely literature written in assembly language. Go deeper and its just a collection of 1's and 0's. Copyrighting that is like making up a random string of numbers and claiming you invented it.*


Isn't a book just a collection from letters?
Isn't a picture a collection of brush strokes?
Isn't music a collection of some notes?

With your logic, there is nothing that could be copyrighted...

And if I am not wrong, you could just go ahead and make up a random String of numbers and copyright that. But you won't make any money of that...  

I don't think Toast was juging you. He just stated his opinion, just as you did.
There is really no need to be insulting.


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## toast (Aug 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by stizz _
> *Maybe I'm bitter, maybe I'm jaded, but I refuse to "not learn and know" a program or OS simply because I cannot afford it.*



So sad you don't understand that, even if you have the means to get those software, you should not use them withotu a license to respect the work of those people who created them.

I wasn't making a personal attack. Thanx Tigger for giving words to what I think.


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## chemistry_geek (Aug 2, 2002)

If I use $hareware, I buy it.  VueScan is GREAT!  If I buy a commercial package (M$ Mac:Office v. X), I get it at the EDUCATIONAL discount through the university.  I'm still paying for it, just at a substantially reduced price.  The commercial software makers still make money, I get to use a good program every once in a while, and everyone is happy and LEGAL.  If I can't get the educational discount (not being enrolled at the time I need it, which happened ONCE), I find one of my friends who is enrolled and they get it for me.  If I can't find one of my college student friends to get it, well, I go without or I pay FULL PRICE (Quake3Arena).  I'm not going to blatently break the law.  I do have a moral sense.


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## stizz (Aug 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by toast _
> *
> 
> So sad you don't understand that, even if you have the means to get those software, you should not use them withotu a license to respect the work of those people who created them.
> ...



You think it's sad? I find that to be a matter of opinion. 

As for my opinion:
We as society have entered a new age; The Age of Information. In this brave new world that we inhabit, information flows like water. Old conforms and restraints no longer really apply, as they were based on the limitations of their time.

I for one have not one single problem finding what I need and taking it. Survival of the fittest and what not. I already stated that if I use a program for commerce, I will buy it. but I refuse to be left behind in the dust as a vast digital divide between the haves and have not's develops simply because I now live below the poverty level.

One has to stay constantly up to date with current technology in order to be economically viable these days.


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## fryke (Aug 3, 2002)

Romantic cyberpunk blabla. Only free information is free. Copyrighted software is not. And Warezing even has nothing to do with the ideal of hacking and its term that information wants to be free. It's just an excuse.

You want a job that needs XPress and Photoshop skills? Go study it. There are enough courses teaching you the skills of those applications. Yes, they do cost. We live in a capitalistic world, don't we. If you need to do a job that doesn't include working on a Macintosh (heaven) you have to do another job to finance your hobby, until you're proficient in the area you want to work in.

This truth is as simple as inacceptable for us lazy asses. How *I* got into graphics design? I troubleshooted the server of a company. They asked me whether I was any good in Illustrator. I said 'Yes, of course!' although I had never touched the thing, because I smelled a job opportunity. And, yes, I've learned Illustrator in the coming two months with a warezed copy. And then I was 'in' the graphics design business, where I could learn more for free, because the applications were there and licensed. Ever since 1995.

But hangin' around at home, 'learning' Photoshop or Quark by fiddling around with it (making nice desktop pictures with cute girls in them) doesn't make you a graphics professional.

And you _can_ write your CVs with AppleWorks. Or TextEdit (better).


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## toast (Aug 3, 2002)

> Romantic cyberpunk blabla.



Those were the words I was looking for when I read this last post from stizz. Thanx, fryke.


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## stizz (Aug 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by fryke _
> *Romantic cyberpunk blabla. *




shrug

[bitter sarcasm] 
I am so sorry everybody. How could I have not known the errors of my ways. Is the damage I've caused with my selfishness repairable? Will we all survive this ghastly mess that I have created? I went and threw all the cdr's I possess of pirated media (OS Builds and Nintendo Roms alike) and threw them in the microwave. They will never hurt anybody ever again. I even reformated all 12 of my hard drives with 1's and 0's to prevent my weak willed being from attempting to retrieve the deleted files. I then threw my cd burner into the swimming pool for good measure. I want to thank everybody for their concern. If you all hadn't been here, god only knows what I would have done next. 
[/bitter sarcasm]

as you can see, you moved me


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## toast (Aug 3, 2002)

[bitter hypocrisy]
 We as society have entered a new age; The Age of Information. In this brave new world that we inhabit, information flows like water. Old conforms and restraints no longer really apply, as they were based on the limitations of their time.

I for one have not one single problem finding what I need and taking it. Survival of the fittest and what not. I already stated that if I use a program for commerce, I will buy it. but I refuse to be left behind in the dust as a vast digital divide between the haves and have not's develops simply because I now live below the poverty level.

One has to stay constantly up to date with current technology in order to be economically viable these days.
[/bitter hypocrisy]

Well, stizz, you're showing up as a soooo constructive person in your posts !

I suppose this thread will finish in the "Stupid" section if this continues. But if you're ready for debating, you're welcome.

I repeat, I don't understand why software is not respected as other private goods. Is it because it's so simple to steal ? I find old grannies' wallets easy to steal too. But I'm not a delinquent.

Hard to talk about pirating those days. The people who do pirate quickly abandon argumentation for inexistant forum tags .

[too bad]
[/too bad]


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## gibbs (Aug 3, 2002)

Oh boy, ugly thread just waiting to happen. 

Despite the fact that stizz's comments arent politically correct or "popular", I still consider what he said to be realistic. 

Sometimes you have to break some rules to get your foot in the door, and I dont believe that makes him a criminal.

If I hired someone for a CG/artistry job at a film effects company, and he told me that he learned his 3d studio max [3000 dollar program] skills from an "unlicensed" copy, just so he could get up to speed, I would still consider him for the job.

Not everyone who has actually committed the act of software piracy is a low-life thief, because some of the best human beings I know are guilty of this act on various levels in the past. Does that make it "okay"? Of course not.

Is every person who has pirated software in the past the same? No. Some people make a living off selling pirated copies of software, and in some countries like Singapore/china/etc, the useage of pirated softare actually outweighs that of licensed copies.  I judge those people differently from a person I know who has tried out photoshop from a warez site to see if he was interested in graphic design. [only to find out he wasn't]. Perhaps thats a double standard that other people do not approve of. That is life.

You can walk into a retail store in Singapore and find blatantly illegal copies of almost anything you want. [at least a few yrs ago when I was there]

Maybe I just have really poor judgement. But please people, despite the fact that many of us have high ideals, you have to realize that the world isnt black and white.

My advice is to follow your conscience. If you didnt pay for a piece of software that you "warezed" to try out, and you now find it useful and beneficial to your job or life, please pay for it. People know when they are doing something they shouldn't.

[this post is not condoning piracy, or anything else, nor do I personally steal software programs. I have however downloaded many mp3's in the past without paying for them, so I am guilty in that sense]


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## edX (Aug 3, 2002)

for a pretty complete discussion on 'to warez or not to warez', please see this thread 

either you do or you don't, just don't don't do it here.  

as a reminder to all - discussions about the ethics of warez are fine on this site. giving *any information* that assists others in participating in illegal activities is not allowed. This includes, but is not limited to, posting of serial numbers, directions for hacks and workarounds, mention of software clients specifically pointing out their illegal use, links to warez sites, and offers to help obtain illegal copies of copyrighted material. 

posts requesting information on how to obtain illegal copyrighted material will be promptly deleted or edited.

*THIS IS NOT A WAREZ OR HACKERS' SITE !!*

keep that in mind any time you discuss this issue. but feel free to incrimnate yourself at your own risk.  

and btw, if this thread doesn't get back to discussing the issue and not taking sly pot shots at one another, you will find it closed. understand? It is also not a flamers' site.


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## edX (Aug 3, 2002)

oh, and Gibbs, none of that previous post was directed towards you. you snuck that in while i was composing. nice, on topic, presentation of your opinion.


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## gibbs (Aug 3, 2002)

Here are a couple more interesting things to think about-

What would the price of some software be today if *nobody* on earth pirated it, therefore not causing the company to increase the price to adjust for that loss? [who knows]

 In retail clothing stores, you have what corporations call "shrinkage" [shoplifting]...and most of that happens because of disgruntled workers, not outsiders. 

And what about companies like Enron? When Enron went bankrupt and ceased operations, energy prices in California went back down an average of 30% according to several news publications I read. And we all know about the robber-baron CEO's out there. 

That point I was trying to make was not that because "everyone is doing it" that its magically okay. I only wanted to note that stealing seems to be a pervasive element of society.

I think another element of software piracy that makes it socially acceptable is the "robin hood" aspect of it. People tend to feel as though they are taking something from a rich software corporation [microsoft is the prime example] and that "they dont need any more money". I am sure a lot of people out there feel as though they are "sticking it to the man" by pirating windows...and heck, with the kind of reputation Microsoft has, you almost can't blame them.


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## xaqintosh (Aug 3, 2002)

I don't pay for shareware, (don't have money, I'm a student) but _when_ I use it I suffer the "register me" pop ups all the time. and I have virtually *no* commercial software simply because I can't afford it. 

mp3s are another matter though


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## themacko (Aug 4, 2002)

agreed, MP3's are different.  Personally, I fell guilty if I use shareware too long that I don't pay for.  All commercial software I have is completely paid for .. and I'm a poor student as well.


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## Koelling (Aug 4, 2002)

What the heck happened to the "scientific study conducted here"? I only read through this thread because I hoped to hear who did and who didn't. I don't care if you do, I just would like to know who honestly does and why. 

As for me, I had cracked serials on almost everything on my computer a year ago. Now I am all legit. OS X and opensource has helped with some stuff, making more quality software for cheep or free. I registered OmniOutliner, and Graphic Converter, but I use Gimp and Mozilla which are free of course. iTunes, textedit, and other Apple software allows me not to have to pirate Audion or Office. Other than that, I find no reason to blow the big bucks. I know Photoshop is leaps and bounds past GIMP, but how often do I need to make a photo liquefied for a school project or web photo?

The reason this argument gets so heated is because everyone has justified it in their mind and believes they are morally correct. It's not going to change anything if you call someone an @$$hole for downloading a warezed copy of a program. They will and that's that. 

Don't even ask me about mp3s, because in my mind 12 gig of stolen music is not a crime. I support the artists I like by buying their stuff directly at concerts, leaving out the label's cut. Other people will call me a thief. meh.


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## toast (Aug 4, 2002)

At the time I'm looking this thread, there's 44.19% people paying their software here. Is that more or less than official stats ? And are there PC/Mac separate statistics please ?


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## fbp_ (Aug 4, 2002)

i pay for mac software

pirating stuff for windows just seems right though


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## stizz (Aug 4, 2002)

Apple used to fly the Jolly Roger at their corporate headquarters.

Interesting precedent.







Maybe I'll hack the finder on this new Jaguar build and replace it's Icon with this one. 

I don't really have a point, Im just fanning flames here.


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## baldprof (Aug 4, 2002)

If you want to save some money check this out:

http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.asp?product_code=295690

Funniest thing I have seen in some time.


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## mindbend (Aug 4, 2002)

Not that this is right, moral, legal or otherwise, but I started my business on 90%+ bootleg software. It was simply too expensive to buy all the software I needed, especially in one fell swoop. 

As my business grew, I gradually replaced all my bootlegs with legitimate copies, starting with the ones that I actually used most. The ones I never really used, I didn't bother with as they were only launched to play around with and never again.

Now, four years later, I'm 100% legit as far as I can tell. You can make the argument that piracy actually made the software companies money [off me anyway], because it allowed my business to grow initially. Had I not pirated software, I would never even have had a chance.

Some people are OK with this, others are not, but in the end they got their money so I can live with it. 

I can understand and tolerate mild forms of piracy (students, not-as-well-off folks, those just experimenting, etc.) but I cannot tolerate anyone who makes money using pirated software not at least making some attempt to go legit. You really are leeches.


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## toast (Aug 5, 2002)

This looks convincing, really convincing mindbend. In fact, rare are the people like you with sound, *calm* () argumentation about having, one day, pirated some software.

And you voted 'yes' I suppose  ?


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## sheepguy42 (Aug 5, 2002)

I have very little money, I am a college student from a sub-$20k income single-parent family (2 kids including me). I have software mostly to play with, and the stuff I actually use for productivity I get legally for free (or rather with my technology fee!) from Penn State. We will no longer get free M$ software after the end of August, because M$ wanted to re-negotiate the contract for a whole lot more $$, and since Penn State just had huge State & Fed funding cuts, and already has had to hike tuition a lot, they said "forget that" and are dumping the free M$ software program. The funniest part though? While most people, at least at my campus, use Windows, the only free software we will have left is Mac OS X!


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## elspif (Aug 7, 2002)

I have all my software legally. That includes Studio MX, Photoshop 7, Director 8.5 at full price and Office v X for the education discount.

However I do agree with Mindbend that the software companies do not make it easy on newly starting media companies (like mine) that wish to do everything legal. Before each project started I bought the software I needed for that project legally, learning most of my stuff on the 30 day trials. However I have had very little income from the projects because all was invested in hardware and software again. I do not believe it do be the software companies responsibilities to provide some scheme for starting companies which would be a hidden way of 'funding' their future.

But they could lookinto providing schemes for starting companies as an added benifit for companies using their software. In a way they would be investing in their own future income, because more licenses would be bought.

Another thing is for governments to support some kind of subsidies for starting companies to get software, this would be a double way of investing in a countries economy.

I guess my rant is a bit of topic but I do feel I bit ticked off paying a heap when I haven't had much personal income from my business(which is fine: the price to pay when starting a company) but still having to compete with companies that use illegal software and will underprice our quotes due to this.

GO BSA!!!!


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## uoba (Aug 17, 2002)

I agree elspif...

I am/was/still am in the same position... case in point:

We had the chance to bid for a rather large ColdFusion job which involved many other technologies as well, however, if we had won, we would've been faced with the immediate dilemma of having to purchase about £2500 worth of software before the job had started (and these guys liked paying in 45 days after invoice!)

I  know MM and Adobe have started competing in the education market with fantastic deals for students, if they could extend this to small enterprises, it would be a huge boost.

Accounting software companies have already been doing this for years (they are accountants after all ), and banks to a lesser extent offer free 24 months (or 12) banking.

As for the government, they would probably get it wrong (would provide use with Photoshop 3, and a HTML book  )


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## TommyWillB (Aug 17, 2002)

There is not legitmate way I can use the "I'm too poor" excuse... What I need is something to help me stay legal... it is just a pain to keep track of this... (I don't want to wish for a Software _License_ Update per se because we just might get it. )

But I have been making a concerted effort to pay for everything on my current machine. I try to delete the stuff that I've not paid for and don't use.

I'd say I might have as many as 20 things littered around my Hard Drive that I either failed to pay for or forgot to delete. Of those there are probably only 2-3 that I've ever used multipe times after the initial install-and-play phase.

However I should point out that I've paid full price for each version of OSX since the Public Beta... (I probably should not mention the "burned" copy of Rhapsody...) I bought multiple versions for home & work even though no one would have noticed otherwise. (Hell I paid for the work one out of my own pocket... but because I was too lazy to get reimbursed...)


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## TommyWillB (Aug 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by uoba _
> *...We had the chance to bid for a rather large ColdFusion job which involved many other technologies as well, however, if we had won, we would've been faced with the immediate dilemma of having to purchase about £2500 worth of software before the job had started...*


Luckily I'm not in the same position at work... I've been able to licence all of our ColdFusion Enterprise 5 machines legitmately. That $5k * 6... We've got all of the developers legal on CF Studio too... (albeit version 4.5)

the difference between home and work, is that I've got someone to keep track of this suff at work... I have to keep my own sloppy records at home.

I love ColdFusion (Macromedia has not harmed it yet...) so it is worth every penny. Hell my company has been evaluating $100k/cpu Java Application servers, so forking over $5k for ColdFusion seems like a steal.

...But they really ought to have a better priced "agency/small business/developer" version that is not crippled...


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## dsibilly (Aug 17, 2002)

As a recent college... err... dropout, I'm not exactly what you'd call flush with money.  I do, however, have 3/4 of a Computer Science degree, so I've bought, used, and stolen my (un)fair share of software.  Like nearly everyone in today's world, I have become nearly dependent upon access to a computer with the common applications: word processing, photo editing (I own a digital camera), etc., etc.  When it comes to obtaining this software, I have the following ethic:

1) If the software can be obtained for free, I will obtain it.  Period.

2) If the software has been written by a small developer (shareware, etc.), and the software satisfies my needs to the point that I feel that it is indispensible (or if it's a game and rocks!), I'll send in the registration fee and pay for the application

3) If the software is from a large developer that is already wealthy, and they are charging way too much for the functionality included therein (i.e. M$ Office, Macromedia Studio MX, Photoshop, and sadly (and most recently) Apple), then if I can obtain the software for free and keep it, I will.  'nuff said.  If they're charging an acceptable price for the functionality provided, then I will go and buy a license from the store with the lowest price.

Think of that what you will.


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## TommyWillB (Aug 17, 2002)

I know 3 posts in a row is anoyning, but I must say one thing to stizz...

I learned everything I know today on "borrowed" copies of BBEdit, Photoshop, MM Director, etc. Had it not been for the kindness of friends there would be no way in hell I'd be as successfull as I am now.

However I feel guilty and that's what's driving my current effort to get legal on everything. I think this is the best some of us can do in this world. In the end Karma get's us all. I'm hoping I can get it fully counteracted before it is too late.

I think the saying starts something like this "It's better to ask for forgiveness later...".


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## xaqintosh (Aug 17, 2002)

it goes a little like this:

dilbert, wally, and some other guy are eating lunch)

Wally: I think it is better to ask forgiveness then to ask permission

other guy: I think it is better to _seek_ permission, thus delaying the process until the next management reorganization which will render the point moot

Wally: that makes mine sound kinda stupid...


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## toast (Aug 18, 2002)

a fine one, XAQ !


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## jhogeterp (Aug 19, 2002)

This ismy first time posting, however, I have been occasionally browsing through the threads for a while now.  As I have been reading this thread, I just feal like I should throw in my two cents (1.999992 or whatever my exchange rate is).


The only reason why pirating software would be acceptable in my mind is for educational or trial reasons.  As a Christian (don't worry I am not going to preach, I am just sighting an example)  I have wrestled with the fact that I never spend any time helping people.  Whether it be tutoring, helping out in the church, or even giving what I should to the church financially.  I have come to the conclusion that since I am a starting business owner who does not have time to spare to tutor, help out in the cimmunity, or spare money to give does mean that I am not doing my part.  I am PREPARING to do my part.  Using the gifts that I have to build a business that in the future will allow time and much more money to give back.  Much more than I could have if I would had not spent as much time at my business.

This I compare to pirating software.  I am not saying it is okay to pirate software to start a business, but if one is not in college anymore (therefore not eligible for educational discounts) or does not work for a company how are they suppossed to learn (and therefore probably become branded to the respective software copyright holder) a program?  I am sorry, but I never learned that much about programs in my design classes.  I learned almost everything I know about programs from fideling around with them at home, in my spare time.     

If I did own some of Macromedia, I would rather someone pirate my software to get staretd and then have that customer for the duration  of their usage of macromedia products than to never have the opportunity to allow the user to become a loyal macromedia customer.  Not only is that person branded, but if they become loyal they will recommend your products to others, which is invaluable.  Much more so than that measly loss of less than $1000 initial investment, which the user did not pay initially.

I understand that a lot of piracy does not happen like this.  But The kind of piracy I just described is what I think is acceptable and actually beneficial in the long run to the copyright holders.

Now, if you are a starting business and you are going to use the software to do commercial work, then that is what a loan is for.  You buy the software with a loan from the bank, do your contracted work, get paid, pay back the loans.  Is that so hard?  That is how a business gets started; with A LOT of debt.  If you are pirating software and starting a business, then you are cheating the others who are starting out a business and are actually in debt to pay for the software.

Sorry if I dragged on, thanks for reading.


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## mindbend (Aug 19, 2002)

My full take on obtained software is a coule of pages back, but I just wanted to add that I do not, nor will I ever pay for any Microsoft software. That is my only exception. Call it a grudge.


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## squidbite (Aug 20, 2002)

I find these totally arbitrary justifications for pirating software amusing.  This I will pay for, that I won't, etc.

Interestingly, I find myself in a strange void because I am far from guiltless in this, and yet I know that deep down the RIAA has some kind of a point, as do software companies that want to cut down on piracy.  With real-world, physical, hands-on products, one cannot take the cavalier attitude of "well, I don't have enough money for it, so I'll just 'borrow' it and use it until I feel it's justifiable for me to pay up."

Well, maybe one can, but it's called shoplifting.

I'm certain that someone could make a business out of creating a sliding scale of software product costs for students, or new business owners, but then there would be an appropriate cottage industry composed of people whose only goal would be to circumvent something like that.  Case in point: tax laws and accounting practices.

Look how many non-students just in this forum expressed interest in taking advantage of the educational discount for Jaguar...

As a composer and songwriter, I'd probably be peeved (to put it mildly) if my songs were out over the internet even before my album went on sale.  Sure, you can chalk that willingness of most people to steal songs (and I do it too) up to the greed of the record companies, but in the end the person who suffers most is the person who has the most time and energy invested in the product - the artist.

The irony is that those of you who are seeking computer science degrees or starting up companies will be the first to complain when people indulge themselves on the fruits of your labor.  You may find the reasoning of only pirating software from large companies to be justifiable, but if everyone were pirating software, even large companies making the software wouldn't remain in business, meaning no programmers, etc.

Again, I'm not judging, just questioning the logic and trying to decide what the solution is...

Maybe the answer (at least for software) is in making people pay only for real-world/commercial usage only.  Just an idea.


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## Jason (Aug 21, 2002)

By all means, i dont think piracy is right, it IS illegal, and it IS stealing, whether we like their prices or not, it IS stealing.

I am a student, and I have quite a bit of pirated software on my hands... why? Because im trying to further my knowledge as best i can, so i can have a future in my field, so i can one day support my family etc....

I am trying to do freelance, but how would i be able to free lance without products since i simply cant afford them? i have bills, i have college to pay for etc etc i can not afford these programs... especially quark...

so i am doing something immoral, and i am stealing, i am taking a risk, i am gambling, i want a better future, i dont want to work at mcdonalds my whole life because i cant afford to be legit, so i am taking the chance by stealing, to help my future... because thats what i care about is my future, and having a decent life, i want to buy a house, own a car, support a wife and children.

does this mean stealing is right? no. am i stealing? yes. will i buy things when i can afford them? yes.

and as far as music, the artists can thank the napster era for my business, as i usually dl songs illegally to listen to them, and see if i like, then i go buy... if not for the songs being out there, i wouldnt be buying their music most likely...


I AM A THEIF, I AM NOT CONDONING IT, ITS JUST THE RISK I TAKE TO FURTHER MY EDUCATION TO REACH MY GOALS IN LIFE.

i am sorry if that offends anyone


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## zerorex (Aug 21, 2002)

wow, this amazes me...  The topic started with a simple open question, and all of a sudden everyone is argueing.  I dont understand why we cant just all respect each others opinions and ideas and go on with a civilized disucssion.


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## squidbite (Aug 21, 2002)

Zero,

The conversation seems pretty civilized to me.

My only point, and I'm not preaching, is that I find some of these arguments interesting.

It's like saying you can't get a job without having a nice suit, and then justifying shoplifting one because of the catch-22.  Only because these products are digital - ethereal - we can get away with it.  For now anyway.

There is an alternative to Buddhabob's dilemma (not to pick on him because others have this same rationale.)  In other words, the two choices aren't *only*

1)  work in McDonald's forever
or
2)  pirate some software.

There is indeed a third choice, which is, get a temp job for a week, save enough for the software, buy it, quit the job.  It's not like buying a car if you need Photoshop.  You'd have to do the same kind of thing to buy the suit.

It's just interesting to me the boundaries people draw. Some will pay for an education, but not software or music.  Others will pay for software and music, but skip out on their student loans.  Everyone who does these things has some inner rationale, and when it all comes down to it, none of it is legal or moral.

I'll add again that I have pirated software and a few downloaded mp3s on my computer.  My own justification is that none of this is stuff that I would ever buy or use if I couldn't obtain it just to play around with; software that I use for commercial purposes or on a daily basis I will pay for.


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## Jason (Aug 21, 2002)

ok, since you made it sound so simple i'll go get a job, ignore my other bills, and buy a 700 dollar program... by saving my money for one week...

im sorry but thats not really optional, see i am have a hard time getting a job period, right now i am doing freelance and a little work for my school, i have been looking for just about ANY type of job in my county for 3 months now, i have gotten one interview, and although i had the skills needed, they wanted someone with more experience, i havent even gotten interview opportunities at customer service jobs... whats my point? its a hell of a lot harder to find a job right now than many people think, and if you think i can just pick up some random job all easy, that pays 700 dollars for a week, please by all means tell me what this is, because right now i am struggling to support myself and affording to go to school... and yes i am learning at school, but ive surpassed the levels they teach design at that school and completed the program itself, right now i am taking general ed classes, i get my associates this semester and i will then transfer to a university (more money, that i dont really have) so when im working, supporting myself, and going to school, and trying to further myself, and trying to get a job and failing, then you telling me to just go out and get a job, it kind of ends up being insulting...

BECAUSE I AM DOING THE BEST THAT I POSSIBLY CAN

i am doing what i can to get by man, what more do i have to say? i mean i dont eat nearly as much as normal people so i can save up to buy certain things, and to pay off bills, what the hell more do you expect of me? i want to buy the stuff trust me i do, i would if i friggen could, i would be the first person in line to, but as of right now i can not afford to buy it, but im not going to sacrifice my learning because i cant afford to, i am going to push myself to learn no matter what the situation is, and if i have to steal, then by all means arrest me, because i am taking money away from billion dollar corporations, because i am learning their products so that one day i can make enough money so that i can buy them... just throw me in hell man for not being financially well off like the most of you, i find it sickening that you guys can sit here and judge everyone that doesnt have the cash like you, if this was perfect world then i would have plenty of money to pay for the things i need to get started as a graphic designer, but i dont... so get over it man, im doing what i can and thats all you or anyone can ask of me, im trying as best i can so please, please respect that

thanks


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## mindbend (Aug 21, 2002)

Budda, 

I don't think squid is picking on you, at least it doesn't come across that way to me. I think he's just exploring the ethical arguments that we all face with this issue.

I find his points interesting. The fact of the matter is that it [piracy] is illegal, a crime and just plain wrong. Yet we all do it to some degree simply because it's so easy and relatively risk-free. As I stated in my earlier post, I pirated a buttload of software until I could pay for it so I'm not about to call anyone out (unless they ARE making money off said software and still refuse to buy it, those people need to die).

Like the business suit example, if I wanted to be a carpenter, had all the skills and knowledge, but couldn't afford the power tools I would simply be SOL unless I was willing to steal the stuff from Lowes or Menards. Software piracy in every legal sense is exactly the same situation. (Actually, now that I think about it, it's now quite the same since you can legally borrow a power tool from a friend, but not software...huh, kinda blows that analogy, but I'm going with it anyway).

Which, of course, makes me a criminal. Former criminal? Recovering crinimal?


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## Jason (Aug 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by mindbend _
> *Budda,
> 
> I don't think squid is picking on you, at least it doesn't come across that way to me. I think he's just exploring the ethical arguments that we all face with this issue.
> ...



Actually most people in other industries that i know that try to start out on their own borrow tools and equipment needed to get the job done until they are on their feet.

Everyone i know does that.

I know its illegal, i stated that in my previous post, which i suppose you didnt read, i know i am stealing, and i know the consequences of my crimes if i get caught... but i am willing to take those risks to get myself on my feet and have a future in the field that i love and want to be in.

i dont like being a criminal, but i honestly dont see much that i can do besides wipe my computer and not be able to do what little i can do to support myself right now

im going to hell


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## xaqintosh (Aug 21, 2002)

you don't have to go to hell, there is still hope for you! 

besides, you said yourself that you have every intention to buy it as soon as you start making money. I'm sure the company's won't mind since if you can't buy it now, you never will, but if you steal it now and buy every upgrade, they'll make a lot more money than they lose.


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## Jason (Aug 21, 2002)

thats the same logic i have but apparently its not good enough for the rich people here


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## squidbite (Aug 21, 2002)

Hey Buddah,

I specifically made a point to say that I wasn't singling you out, so I'm sorry you feel that way.  I really didn't mean to do that.

For the record, I'm not working either, and haven't really had a full-time job in 2 years.  Leaving that job was my choice, but finding another one has been quite difficult.  No, I'm not rich.  I'm living at home - not exactly an optimal situation.

Not that any of that matters, just trying to get you to see that I understand the reality of the situation.

Mindbend had it exactly right: I'm just interested in everyone's (not just yours) rationale for their actions.  The end of my post stated my own, very suspect (if I might add from an objective point of view) rationale for my behavior.  So I'm not judging you.

All I can say is that I hope that people who are established, and who do find a way to make money using a product, will pay for it.  I think this is largely what happens, though.  Maybe this will happen less so with music, as that is not really a tool as is software, but at least with software.

Ideally that would be true for music too (coming from a musician).


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## Jason (Aug 21, 2002)

no prob, i have had a lot of people look down on me for what i do, and im getting tired of it being the cover im getting judged by

most people know me as a very giving and honest and moral person

but as soon as someone finds out i have pirated software they think im some sort of hacker, kidnapper, evil satanist or something, and its saddening because im only doing it out of need

also, if i bought educational versions, technically i wouldnt be able to use those to make money either, so educational versions would be out of the window as well if we want to get throuroughly strict, and then there is the issue of fonts as well, etc etc

in the 2 years ive spent a good 4-5 grand on computer hardware, now in the next few years i plan on getting the software, when i can afford it

as far as music, like i said, if i didnt "steal" songs, many artists wouldnt have me as a customer and wouldnt have my money, in all honesty it seems to be a double edged sword i guess... (and sampling low rate, parts of a couple of a songs on a cd isnt going to give me enough info about it to buy it.. IMO)


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## mindbend (Aug 22, 2002)

OK, now I am going to get defensive. I did in fact read all the posts, so nyahh.

As for the "not good enough for all the 'rich' people here", if you had actually bothered to read MY post from WAY back, you would see that I was the first to initiate the "steal now, pay later" approach conversationally. So, nyahh again.

As far as that strategy goes, I say go for it! As long as in the end it gets paid for. I'm sure the software companies would say otherwise.

Somehow, this became the "all about BuddaBob" thread, when in fact it was simply the "let's discuss the ethics of piracy" thread. None of my comments regarding morality/legality or otherwise were directed at Budda. As I stated, I used to be the Captain Hook of pirates for a while.


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## Jason (Aug 22, 2002)

then there ya go, no lets all shut up and enjoy our macs 

nyah


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## chevy (Aug 24, 2002)

I don't like to be stolen, so I pay for most of the software. I even paid for Office and all games that my children run (but freeware or shareware in demo mode).

Only exception, I don't always pay for upgrades. Not that I think it should be free, but some are really too expensive for the usage I have of it, and I still need the upgrade to be able to run the software in the current OS.

BTW I do the same for music or movie. It happens I donwload MP3, but I don't keep these. If I like the music, I buy the CD. Any divx quality is so bad that it is nothing else than a bad trailer.


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## georgelien (Aug 24, 2002)

I'm proud to say that I pay for all of my software as well as my music.  Creative people have to eat like the rest of us.  We, as users, have the choice of using their stuff or not.  While I agree that some software are too highly priced, I'm sick of people saying they have no choices.  Users do have a choice!  For example, I plan to replace MS Office 98 I bought back in college with OpenOffice for MacOS X, since I still need a native Office Suit for the new OS.  MS Office is too expensive, so I'm not buying.

Please support software developers, because software is the soul of your computer!

Enjoy
Have Fun
'Cause you've got a Mac!

Regards,
George Lien


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## ferrit (Aug 25, 2002)

Simple Fact: Microsoft is rich enough as it is.

If microsoft made it, the most ill pay for it is the price of a blank CD

Office
Windows
Anything


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## georgelien (Aug 26, 2002)

Dear Ferrit,

I too don't like Microsoft much, nor do I like the way the company practices its business.

However, no matter how rich another person is, we--with the lesser money--have no right to steal from them.

Using software products to make or earn a living without paying to use them is like stealing.  No argument will alter that fact.

Use the alternative products.
You have a choice--especially if you are an American.

Regards,
George Lien

PS: Correct me if I'm wrong.


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## ferrit (Aug 27, 2002)

Unfortunately there isnt that much of a choice in australia. we got on the mac, appleworks or office, and although i love appleworks for graphics, its word processor sucks.

im a student on  a student income, i cant afford the $900 Australian for a copy of Office X. 

If i could, i would buy all my software, manuals and tech support is so hard to find online


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