# Michael Dell: "I would sell OS X on my machines"



## nixgeek (Jun 16, 2005)

Interesting...don't know if it's real or not, but very interesting...

http://www.fortune.com/fortune/fastforward/0,15704,1072719,00.html


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## Viro (Jun 16, 2005)

This smells a lot like the same claims Dell has made in the past. "If customers ask for AMD, we'll sell AMD". Even with Linux, most Dells come prebundled with Windows. Try buying a laptop or desktop from Dell with Linux, or even without an OS. Not a chance.


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## fjdouse (Jun 16, 2005)

mmh, I'm not sure where this is all going, I don't think I like it.
I can't see Apple licensing OS X, they've said they won't allow OS X to run on other hardware.  I think the indications are -all arguements aside- Apple are moving into the PC market, maybe with their own brand PC (Mac) compatibles and start to rattle Microsoft's cage. It doesn't make sense. None of this makes sense. If Apple are wanting to challenge Microsoft, I think that will be suicide, OSes and software IS Microsofts domain, they will not take kindly to such a move on Apple's part. What's the point? Topple Microsoft?  I don't want that! Apple will be no bloody better than Microsoft is now.

I'm loosing _confidence_ in Apple, they are not doing themselves any favours by keeping silent and nobody really knows what's going on, we all talk here as if we know but we don't know a single thing, we're all guessing, there are lots of HORRID indications which point to everything I'd hate to see, but no facts. It's a mess full of uncertainties, things were quieter with Linux...


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## fryke (Jun 16, 2005)

It's just him saying he'd like that. SURE he would! Of course this has nothing to do with Apple even remotely _thinking_ about it.

To lose "faith in Apple" over such a comment is a litte off, I think. Hey: I'd like to sell no-name PCs with Mac OS X on them, too. I think it'd be fun. But you shouldn't lose faith in Apple coz of it.


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## Viro (Jun 16, 2005)

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I find it absolutely hilarious that some speculate that Apple ditched IBM because of the lack of a roadmap. If anyone lacks a roadmap, it's Apple. Honestly, Macs are quite possibly the worst platform to be developing for right now. With Linux, you've got source level stability, and you can see where things are going. With Windows, you've got promises and endless betas of where things are going. With Mac, you've got no idea what Steve is going to do next.

The whole switch to x86 despite Apple denying such rumors for years combines with the total silence about their roadmap really shakes my confidence in this company.


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## fryke (Jun 16, 2005)

Hm? Apple told you that as a developer you'll be devloping for Tiger for the next 1.5 years, for PPC and intel processors with Xcode 2.1 and up. That they'll tell you about Mac OS X 10.5 next WWDC and that the transition to intel will be done by the end of 2007. That's quite a clear roadmap for developers, isn't it?


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## fjdouse (Jun 16, 2005)

Viro said:
			
		

> I've said it before and I'll say it again. I find it absolutely hilarious that some speculate that Apple ditched IBM because of the lack of a roadmap. If anyone lacks a roadmap, it's Apple. Honestly, Macs are quite possibly the worst platform to be developing for right now. With Linux, you've got source level stability, and you can see where things are going. With Windows, you've got promises and endless betas of where things are going. With Mac, you've got no idea what Steve is going to do next.
> 
> The whole switch to x86 despite Apple denying such rumors for years combines with the total silence about their roadmap really shakes my confidence in this company.



Thanks, you've saved me some typing. My confidence is shaken, I would not make products for Apple right now if I owned a software firm.  I also cannot, in all conscience, recommend Apple computers right now, a position I NEVER thought I'd be in.


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## kainjow (Jun 16, 2005)

Wow, Dell says he would like to distribute OS X, and now we've lost faith in Apple? How'd that come up?? There are already 5 billion threads about this... let's stick to the topic of Dell.


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## Viro (Jun 16, 2005)

Sorry, my bad. I'll stay on topic.


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## fjdouse (Jun 16, 2005)

Despite the words of the self-appointed thought police, it is on topic, as we are discussing the implications of such a move. If you want to stick with 'just Dell', then the conversation is pretty much dead, what more is there to say? Dell want to licence OS X, probably won't happen. There we go.


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## nixgeek (Jun 16, 2005)

What I find interesting is that PC makers such as Dell (whether they mean it or not) seem to recognize that the Mac OS *is* definitely better tan what is offered by Microsoft at the moment.  Of course, the article also reminded me of what happened in the 90s with the cloning of PPC Macs and Mac OS licensing.  Everyone said the same thing Dell is saying, and when it was in full effect, every other Mac cloner was eating into Apple's sales.  Personally, I think it would be a repeat of the past except with a different CPU.

It seems as though it would be inevitable for this to happen if licensing and cloning were to take place again.  Seems like a price to pay to have Mac OS X everywhere.


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## Viro (Jun 16, 2005)

The big question is if Mac OS X is everywhere, will it still be as good? Part of the reason for OS X's "everything just works" reputation is because Apple controls the hardware and the software. They only need to support a limited set of computer configurations, hence the OS is better tested and there are less bugs. Contrast this with Windows that runs on literally an infinite number of possible hardware combinations.


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## fryke (Jun 16, 2005)

Well, although this news blurb of today certainly shouldn't be met with anything like "Wow, it's going to happen!" kind of panic, let's think a little clearer here. Should Apple _ever_ let Dell sell Mac OS X licenses, it seems clear to me that Dell would actually have to deliver parts that _work_ with OS X. Apple would probably release a list of supported hardware then, and would Dell wish to deliver hardware _not_ on that list, supporting it would be Dell's issue... Not _that_ much of a problem.


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## MisterMe (Jun 16, 2005)

fjdouse said:
			
		

> mmh, I'm not sure where this is all going, I don't think I like it.
> I can't see Apple licensing OS X, they've said they won't allow OS X to run on other hardware.  I think the indications are -all arguements aside- Apple are moving into the PC market, maybe with their own brand PC (Mac) compatibles and start to rattle Microsoft's cage. It doesn't make sense. None of this makes sense. If Apple are wanting to challenge Microsoft, I think that will be suicide, OSes and software IS Microsofts domain, they will not take kindly to such a move on Apple's part. What's the point? Topple Microsoft?  I don't want that! Apple will be no bloody better than Microsoft is now.
> 
> I'm loosing faith in Apple, they are not doing themselves any favours by keeping silent and nobody really knows what's going on, we all talk here as if we know but we don't know a single thing, we're all guessing, there are lots of HORRID indications which point to everything I'd hate to see, but no facts. It's a mess full of uncertainties, things were quieter with Linux...


So you are losing your "faith" in Apple because it does not share your fear of Microsoft? Don't get me wrong--I am fully aware of the power that Microsoft wields in the software market. However, I also believe that Apple has been burned too many times in the past because it deferred to Microsoft. My sense is that Steve Jobs has decided that it time to stop. I think that he has also decided that now is the time to do it.

Michael Dell's public comments seem to confirm reports from a month or so ago. Those reports said that several Intel-based OEMs approached Jobs about securing MacOS X licenses. These OEMs were reportedly tired of dealing with the security and stability issues inherent in Microsoft Windows. I am convinced that Jobs is the source of the reports. I am also convinced that the lobbying from those OEMs played a significant role in his decision to switch the Mac to Intel.

Microsoft is powerful, but it is not invincible. For years, the Redmond Monopoly has leveraged a few profitable operations and a majority of money-losing operations into total market domination. Microsoft Office is the goose that lays the golden eggs. Windows is the nest, but it makes much less profit. Currently, Microsoft is spending $1 billions to develop Longhorn. It expects to release Longhorn by 2007, but this is by no means certain. The upshot is that Microsoft is simply not in a position to retaliate against anyone. For example, Office:mac bleeds black whereas the Xbox bleeds red.

It is time to start analyzing Apple's switch to Intel in terms of a business strategy. Too much of what I read here are well-meaning people trying to return the world to what it was on June 5. It is a new day. We either deal with it, or it leaves us behind.


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## nixgeek (Jun 16, 2005)

fryke said:
			
		

> Well, although this news blurb of today certainly shouldn't be met with anything like "Wow, it's going to happen!" kind of panic, let's think a little clearer here. Should Apple _ever_ let Dell sell Mac OS X licenses, it seems clear to me that Dell would actually have to deliver parts that _work_ with OS X. Apple would probably release a list of supported hardware then, and would Dell wish to deliver hardware _not_ on that list, supporting it would be Dell's issue... Not _that_ much of a problem.



This is exactly what was mentioned in the article.  Apple would probably make Dell and other interested to adhere to the parameters Apple provides for the hardware, othewise they would not be granted a license.  Of course, the other side of this would mean that every Mactel-compatible would be just like Apple's hence obscuring the uniqueness of Apple's machines, and giving validity to fjdouse's concerns (using fjdouse as an example in reference to his posts).


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## fryke (Jun 16, 2005)

Well: It's just Michael saying something. I still don't think that should be reason to even discuss it. We know Apple said "no" to licensing. In the past. And presently.


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## scruffy (Jun 16, 2005)

I'd certainly buy a Dell server with OS X on it.  Their desktops are pretty uninspiring - but when it comes to servers, you _want_ precisely the Soviet-style construction that Dell is all about.

That, and their servers actually have dual power supplies.  Why the XServes don't, I doubt I'll ever know...


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## Cat (Jun 17, 2005)

I think Mr. Dell just said it to jump in on the buzz surrounding the Intel transition at Apple. He just wants to be in the news by acting as a parassite on hot stories. Dell doesn't generate anywhere near the exitement surrounding Apple announcements and Keynotes, and they do not produce anything new, never ever. They just incorporate the most recent parts, no drastic changes, hence no news. Apple jumps all over the place and everybody pays attention. So Dell chimes in just to say "me too!".
Nothing's gonna happen.


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## pjeski (Jun 17, 2005)

Michael Dell simply answered the question that David Kirkpatrick asked:
"So I emailed Michael Dell, now the company's chairman, and asked if he'd be interested in the Mac OS, assuming that Apple CEO Steve Jobs ever decides to license it to PC companies. (For now, Jobs says he won't.)"

So how does that mean he wants to "jump in on the buzz", how is that "acting as a parassite"?


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## AdmiralAK (Jun 17, 2005)

hey scruffy what do you mean by "soviet style"  (I love the term - I might steal ot from you )


As for clones, we've been there, done that. However never say never because you see what happened with Rhapsody's intel version? We all thought it was dead...but no! Next year will see the dawn of intel macs.

If clones are to be made, I think that apple will either license the apple logo to go on  the clones (that way the OS installation stays withing their EULA), they get some money, and they might provide some proprietary part to the clones to make some more $$$.

Personally I would still buy my macs from apple. I have not had good experiences with dell.


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## fjdouse (Jun 17, 2005)

Why are people assuming 'clones' will be made?  Apple will be making (it seems) PC clones, it may require a 'slight' modification to Dells at most, to validate OS X. (Intel's DRM?)

(If Dell made a "Intel Mac" the size of a mini which was cheaper, I'd consider one. I'd never go back to a big buzzy box again)

But we really are running ahead of ourselves here.  Mr Dell (I hate people that use first names, as if they KNOW these guys!) was posed a hypothetical question, one which Apple have RULED OUT (for now), and he gave a hypothetical answer.


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## pjeski (Jun 17, 2005)

fjdouse said:
			
		

> (snip)(I hate people that use first names, as if they KNOW these guys!) (snip)


  
Wow, that seems like a trivial matter to feel hatred over.


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## fjdouse (Jun 17, 2005)

Hate is too strong a word, I should be a bit more responsible.

I find it 'amusingly pretentious' is a more accurate description    I don't really hate anyone or anything.. except spiders, and perhaps Microsoft's Windows.


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## chornbe (Jun 17, 2005)

Now you're just being anti-establishment for the sake of being so.  Windows is a good product... at times throughout its history. It may not be what you like, but you can't hate Windows for the sake of hating it. That's like hating electricity because you could get shocked or hating water because you could drown. Nah... Windows is good and Microsoft is not evil. 

It's funny... Developers are the first to bash Windows, but the ones doing it aren't Windows developers... they're people who have, in many cases, never written anything more complex than "Hello world" - but they made the mistake of doing an MFC+ATL COM-riddled mess of a "Hello world" so it all just seems needlessly complicated (which it *can* be at times). 

Users also bash Windows when 99% of the time, the *USER* is the problem. More specifically, what the user has *DONE* to his computer is the problem. A PC riddled with spyware and viruses running every file sharing program and freeware piece of crap label maker with embedded "SAVE.COM" popup ads most definitely *is* a piece of crap. And the fact that the Windows security model is wide open is absolutely a weak point, but that can be controlled, if someone cares to learn enough to take the *hour* or so it might take to lock your system down (a state that is *should* be shipped in a la Unix and Novell of olde).

I'll say it once more - Apple computers are *apparently* more stable because they come from a proprietary, tightly controlled background. Windows has to be everything to everyone. And THAT is its true weakness.


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## Lt Major Burns (Jun 17, 2005)

<argh off topic sorry, but i need to say it>

my experience, and i'm writing on my parents Dell, as i'm staying here ATM, is that my mac will go wrong if i'm trying to do something silly with it or wilfully trying to clog it up with uncertified thirdparty rubbish. 9 times out of ten it goes right. it's solid. 

before i came home, i was championing windows' improvement over the years, that it was a stable, solid environment, let down by brain dead idiot users. i came home, and started using my parents dell again. within 20 mins i screamed. my parents are by no means imbeciles (my father works in IT), they both have degrees. but the computer was a mess. end users, without knowing what they were doing was wrong, bugger up a computer with XP on it. 

With windows, it's not so much what you do that brings the system down (like macOS), more what you *don't* do - maintenance is a huge thing just to keep it clean and stable. we currently have: AVG, Microsoft Anti-Spyware, Kerio Anti-Virus, and my new contributions, Adaware and Crap Cleaner, all running daily to keep on top of things. this reduces the 512mb of ram to nearly-useless. Microsoft still claim 64mb of ram as minimum usable requirements. (it's a 2.4ghz system, but it is DOG slow)

people just don't realise how far ahead of the game MacOS is.  general public have accepted that virus' are a thing that you must have if you have acomputer. everyone must have antivirus. that all those nice effects the computer games have don't happen in the OS because it just can't.  macos isn't like that. it does have things that remind you that you're working on a 21st cenbtury machine, and virus are something we don't worry about. no wonder Mr Dell wants macOS. it's the future of windows, today. (....and back on topic!)

</argh off topic sorry, but i need to say it>


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## MisterMe (Jun 17, 2005)

chornbe said:
			
		

> ....
> 
> Users also bash Windows when 99% of the time, the *USER* is the problem. ....


My God, how could I have been so blind?! The _user_ is the problem. Get rid of Windows users and its problems go away. Why didn't I think of this before?


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## Qion (Jun 17, 2005)

<also off topic>

It's not just users that's the problem, it's a faulty OS!!!! I mean come on, how many pros do you know -Including Gates himself- that have screwed up in Windows? Remember when Gates's BRAND NEW Media Center PC crashed and burned? I'm sure that that computer had 0 viruses, was running a modified version of Media Center, and the end user was the one that MADE the thing. I can't remember how many times I've had to run over to my neighbor's house to figure out why IE isn't working correctly, or why they keep getting a random error message. (you ever get an **ERROR** message that said "Error loading the previous error"?) As I said in a previous thread, when I borrowed my friend's buggy and slow laptop PC with XP, I ended up installing Slax Linux on it and the thing ran beautifully. No wonder Mr. Dell wants a license to OSX! (There, back on topic)


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## fjdouse (Jun 17, 2005)

Nice one MisterMe, so we're agreed. Windows is fine if you don't use it!  Thank God, MY copy of Windows is safely tucked inside a virtual machine, where the damn thing belongs. Look, I'm not too keen on Microsoft, I'll give credit to them where it's due, I was actually impressed by Office and PocketPCs after being a Linux PDA advocate. But Windows is naff, disagree if you want, that's your right. But I have an opinion too, it's shyte.


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## fjdouse (Jun 17, 2005)

Qion said:
			
		

> you ever get an **ERROR** message that said "Error loading the previous error"?



No, but I remember my dear old PowerMac 5500 saying "An error occured because an error occured"

The difference of course is with the Mac I laughed for hours, with Windows I'm more inclined to take a hammer to it.

Back to the thrilling thread lest the thought police start moaning....


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## AdmiralAK (Jun 17, 2005)

Can you get a screenshot of "an error occured because and error occured" ?


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## Qion (Jun 17, 2005)

Well no, but I can give you mine....

Yep, here you go- (Press any key to continue or any other key to quit)


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## chornbe (Jun 17, 2005)

HAH! That's excellent!


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## chornbe (Jun 17, 2005)

MisterMe said:
			
		

> My God, how could I have been so blind?! The _user_ is the problem. Get rid of Windows users and its problems go away. Why didn't I think of this before?



I went on to clarify... you underquoted me. No, *being* a user isn't the problem - being able to down and install shit software with spyware and popups is *part of* the problem.

Windows isn't a crap OS... the fact that the security in Windows is wide open is 99% of the "spyware" problem.

Let's look at it this way... if every Mac user on OS/X was loggin in as root all the time (to simulate the Windows user security model) and Mac's OS/X had the market share that Windows has - thus prompting all the basement dwelling fukktards who write spyware, trojans and viruses to attack OS/X, then Microsoft would be hollaring from their 6% marketshare position that "Windows doesn't have any viruses".

Mac people are smart, right? So prove it... be smart and say things like "Macs don't have viruses because a) users don't run around as root and b) because we're not so big in the computer landscape that trojan makers bother with us."

If Windows was locked down (properly) 99% of the problems go away. Windows doesn't suck. The Windows security model sucks... and sucks bad... thus giving the impression that Windows sucks.

It may *seem* to be the same thing to people who don't look beyond their noses, but it's not. It's a huge, huge, huge difference.


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## chornbe (Jun 17, 2005)

PS... OS/X (which I love, btw, don't think I'm a Mac basher) is far from perfect. Just look in the (Mac OS X System & Mac Software) forum (http://macosx.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=5)

here's a sample of the problems found there:

Corrupt Java installation fix for 10.3.9

Weird sound problem... :\

"Recovered files" folder in trash after restart

HELP PLEASE! Can't See Printer - WHY?

Strange display problem

All my fonts are gone...

---

I'd venture to say that *some* of these are *user* problems and not a problem with the system, yet it'd be real easy to list these problems out and, not knowing any details, say something like "Wow, look at all the problems OS/X has just in one page of post titles". Unfair? And how often do you hear "Just trash your preferences and re run it" ? Or "reset yoru power manager and it'll be fine". All systems, all OSes, all hardware, software, ball point pens... all every... have their issues.

Point being, this glass house is damned nice, but it's still a glass house.


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## chornbe (Jun 17, 2005)

Viro said:
			
		

> The big question is if Mac OS X is everywhere, will it still be as good? Part of the reason for OS X's "everything just works" reputation is because Apple controls the hardware and the software. They only need to support a limited set of computer configurations, hence the OS is better tested and there are less bugs. Contrast this with Windows that runs on literally an infinite number of possible hardware combinations.




That is *exactly* one of the points I've been making. Smaller, more controlled = "better".


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## TommyWillB (Jun 17, 2005)

scruffy said:
			
		

> I'd certainly buy a Dell server with OS X on it. Their desktops are pretty uninspiring - but when it comes to servers, you _want_ precisely the Soviet-style construction that Dell is all about.
> 
> That, and their servers actually have dual power supplies. Why the XServes don't, I doubt I'll ever know...


So you'd rather have big, loud, power hungry machines filling your data center?

Personally I'd rather have twice as many xServes, and then just swap one out when the power supply dies. I beleive in redundancy, but not of every single part. As long as you've got redudant systems, you should be able to survive with one of them dead.

A lot of blade systems move the power supply out of the CPU box and into a seperate box. This allows the blades to be smaller, and the heat generating power supplies to be further away. (I'm not sure, but I think this also allows multiple blades to share power supplies as needed, requiring fewer for redundancy.)


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## Qion (Jun 17, 2005)

chornbe said:
			
		

> I went on to clarify... you underquoted me. No, *being* a user isn't the problem - being able to down and install shit software with spyware and popups is *part of* the problem.
> 
> Windows isn't a crap OS... the fact that the security in Windows is wide open is 99% of the "spyware" problem.
> 
> ...



(Eh-em)

I completely agree with everything you say, up until 





			
				chornbe said:
			
		

> The Windows security model sucks... and sucks bad... thus giving the impression that Windows sucks.



Sorry, but trojans horses, wormholes, and basement dwelling fucktards aren't the only contributors to why we don't like Windows. I worked with early DOS-based systems up until XP without internet. This taught me that Internet and it's problems aren't the only factors in an OS like Windows. Things like being intuitive, smooth, good-looking, non-problematic are the bigs ones. Yes, the security system plays a HUGE role in the rep of Windows, but that's not the only thing that gives it the bad rap.


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## scruffy (Jun 17, 2005)

Tommy - yeah, they're loud.  So are Sun and IBM servers.  I don't like that part so much.  I don't really know about relative power consumption vs XServes.

Yes, you should have redundancy with entirely separate computers (if you can afford it), no question.  But I also think it's nice to have the most failure-prone parts redundant in each computer as well - disks and power supplies.  So, we have RAID in XServes, but no power supply redundancy.  Ah well.

Now, that about the blade servers with external power supplies, that would be awfully nice.  You could put the power supplies on the other side of a thin partitioning wall, to keep the noise down a bit, and just pull out a section of wall when you want to run some new power cables...  Although I understand there can be issues if the AC-DC conversion happens too far from the power sinks, as it can make it harder for the power supply to keep up with fluctuating power demands.  Or maybe that's a solved problem these days, Idunno.


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## Carlo (Jun 18, 2005)

Viro said:
			
		

> This smells a lot like the same claims Dell has made in the past. "If customers ask for AMD, we'll sell AMD". Even with Linux, most Dells come prebundled with Windows. Try buying a laptop or desktop from Dell with Linux, or even without an OS. Not a chance.



not sure about where you are but in Australia you can buy a dell laptop or desktop with no operating system. This was not possible in the past but now you can buy a "N" machine which has no OS.

Still.. as if you would buy a dell!

oh and dont forget.. IBM, Compaq and Dell wanted nExt all those years ago.. Its amazing how history repeats.


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## fjdouse (Jun 18, 2005)

[OFF TOPIC]Sorry chornbe, Windows is crap, it's designed poorly, layer upon layer of mistakes, with NO security model and has a built-in crash-o-matic feature, not to mention that even without installing junk online, it gets slower and slower and slower until the user either upgrades the hardware or is forced to attempt a reinstall. An internet connection only makes it worse. As the quip goes "32bit extensions to a 16bit GUI for an 8bit OS on a 4bit processor by a 2bit company". It's rubbish mate, sorry.[/OFF TOPIC]


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## Jason (Jun 18, 2005)

Funny, my XP box has no spyware, viruses or trojans, hasn't crashed since I've had it and cost half as much as a comparably fast powermac...

Windows doesn't suck, if the user doesn't suck. End of story.


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## chornbe (Jun 18, 2005)

Jason said:
			
		

> Funny, my XP box has no spyware, viruses or trojans, hasn't crashed since I've had it and cost half as much as a comparably fast powermac...
> 
> Windows doesn't suck, if the user doesn't suck. End of story.



Bingo.

'Zactly the point I was making. Thank you!


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## chornbe (Jun 18, 2005)

fjdouse said:
			
		

> [OFF TOPIC]Sorry chornbe, Windows is crap, it's designed poorly, layer upon layer of mistakes, with NO security model and has a built-in crash-o-matic feature, not to mention that even without installing junk online, it gets slower and slower and slower until the user either upgrades the hardware or is forced to attempt a reinstall. An internet connection only makes it worse. As the quip goes "32bit extensions to a 16bit GUI for an 8bit OS on a 4bit processor by a 2bit company". It's rubbish mate, sorry.[/OFF TOPIC]



Good for a giggle. Patently incorrect, false and based on heresay and silliness... but chuckle-worthy for sure. Thank you.


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## Jason (Jun 18, 2005)

FWIW I have two Macs, two iPods and an iSight and one PC, so please, no one assume I'm a PC fanboy (don't know how many n00bs there are around here, so I gotta get that out of the way ).


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## mlunapiena01 (Jun 18, 2005)

Jason said:
			
		

> Funny, my XP box has no spyware, viruses or trojans, hasn't crashed since I've had it and cost half as much as a comparably fast powermac...
> 
> Windows doesn't suck, if the user doesn't suck. End of story.



I'm sorry, I quite frankly have to disagree with this.  As far as viruses/spyware/adware/etc. is concerned, I have to agree any good user doesn't have these problems.  However, as far as Windows crashing being the user's fault, that's not always true.  There can be problems related to drivers that are entirely beyond users.  I had that issue for the longest time, recently I changed video cards and I have it no longer, but often windows crashes are driver related, not user created.


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## chornbe (Jun 18, 2005)

*nods* Another point I made earlier and it's completely valid and right.


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## fjdouse (Jun 18, 2005)

[OFF TOPIC]I earned my tertiary degrees in systems engineering. I've ran several IT consultancies and was even a partner in a company assembling, selling and maintaining Windows PCs. My humored dig aside, Windows IS a poor operating system compared to some others I could think of, but even so, I support it's existence! Otherwise I wouldn't have had the pleasure of making money from it's gaping flaws. 

I was contracted as a consultant for one of the worlds largest accountancy firms a number of years ago, who were completely Mac based but were STUPIDLY making a transition to Windows, why? Because their new IT manager only knew Windows. Go figure. Their Mac support costs were low and the entire international IT support team totalled 30 members, after the transition to Windows PCs, the support team had to be increased to over 300! including myself (The company I owned was billing them for an enourmous hourly rate) to cope with the endless problems which dogged them until I left (and I assume, still do to this day). (BTW. I was a good Mac lover and rescued several machines, including reuniting some distraught users and their Macs to take home.)

More recently I did some work for a R&D company in fibre optics, 100 Windows PC's and 100 Solaris boxes, these weren't 'dumb' users, they were IEEE engineers.  All the systems did the same thing, some users would not use Windows though, these guys WERE the company, if they wouldn't use it the company was happy to provide Solaris boxes. They all (the computers) did comparable jobs: web/mail, wordprocessing, spreadsheets etc. either with MS Office or StarOffice/TeX and Xilinx related software.

I maintained all the UNIX systems myself with 100% uptime and actually had so much time free I could play in the labs with embedded Linux systems, meanwhile, it took 5 people working flat out to do the same for the Windows machines, which were always having problems and issues to be dealt with, desktops crashing, servers falling over etc. etc. etc. it NEVER stopped.  They were all allegedly Microsoft certified, not that THAT means much!

In my humble OPINION, in my ignorance as a dumbskull without a clue about anything really, especially derr... comp-uters!   ..Windows IS poorly designed, poorly implemented and generally a pain to use or maintain. I consider myself fortunate that I have never developed a Windows dependancy problem. It's Fisher Price computing, for kids and secretaries, for Outlook or the latest dull brain-off game (now that will rattle some cages) but not the discerning user  Seriously, it tries to be all things to all men (or PCs) and it can't do it. But what do I know?

Anyway, can we please TRY to keep this on thread, the OS debate is old and just results in people going round and round ad nauseum, it's a p1$$ing contest and not a very interesting one. I find it amazing that we're getting people actually praising Windows on a Mac forum! The Intel switch must have done more than change a CPU! Now, keep it on Dell and their beautiful Windows boxes which has a few closet fans here it seems...   [/OFF TOPIC]


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## RGrphc2 (Jun 18, 2005)

Ever since i switched to OpenSource software (Mozilla Firebird/Thunderbird) and haven't gotten Spam or Spyware in the past year...   

had mad problems installing adobe CS2 though last night, wanted to throw the box out the window and smash it with a hammer...    

got it installed today fine though.  So i guess that makes up for it...


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## Qion (Jun 18, 2005)

fjdouse said:
			
		

> [OFF TOPIC]I earned my tertiary degrees in systems engineering. I've ran several IT consultancies and was even a partner in a company assembling, selling and maintaining Windows PCs. My humored dig aside, Windows IS a poor operating system compared to some others I could think of, but even so, I support it's existence! Otherwise I wouldn't have had the pleasure of making money from it's gaping flaws.
> 
> etc. etc. etc..... [/OFF TOPIC]



Sorry to reincarnate, but this is extremely well said. I couldn't of done a better job myself. Experience makes one wise  AND DON'T ARGUE THIS, I mean it's his real-life experience!


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## eguillem (Jun 19, 2005)

Well the way I see it is that Microsoft might have some interest in OSX going to the PC market....my point.... In the last year we've seen countless anti-trust and monopoly suits against the Redmond company. A few weeks ago the European Commision assesed a multi-milion euro fine to microsoft just for putting Windows Media Player in their O.S.   As things go on Microsoft needs somebody else in the game so they can avoid all this suits.

Linux has been positioning itself to play that role for a few years but of course Mr. Gates didn't like it very much...why?? He didn't get any piece of the linux cake...However...think about APPLE. If Apple were to be that 2nd option Microsoft would avoid many many suits and Microsoft owns 49% of apple...and has no control over it so they could not be accused of monopolize the market......


Just my 2 cents..
Ernesto


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## Lt Major Burns (Jun 19, 2005)

apparently the 49% bit is untrue. a nice little rumour for the pc zealots.

i've just been using windows in anger (as in using it to actaully get some work done). and i'm angry. i hate it so much. for years i tolerated it, even liked the way it worked, it wasn't bad! then i spent 6 months solely using macOS x. there is a better way, and it highlights just how far behind windows is. i'm getting so stressed just using it - it's a pain in the arse not having expose. and the start menu is _crap_ - so hard to find a program. and just the way whenever you tryto do something, SOMETHING has to go werong, even if it';s only little, it has to go wrong in some way.

PC people say macs are incompatible, i disagree - pc's are far more incompatible - at least apple know they have to try hard.

</off-topic, well-tread-before rant>


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## fryke (Jun 19, 2005)

Thread is going tooooo off-topic. We don't really need another "How good/bad is Windows, really?" thread. Those belong to the Café, or to other forums, in my opinion. 

So, please: Keep away from attacking/defending Windows.


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## AdmiralAK (Jun 19, 2005)

> Their Mac support costs were low and the entire international IT support team totalled 30 members, after the transition to Windows PCs, the support team had to be increased to over 300!


off-topic: I will try to keep it short

THe above quote can be boiled down to: Job Security 
I am a mac user, but at work I maintain windows workstations (along with A/V equipment). Windows machines I touch every day to make sure all is running well. The few macs that we loan to clients I seriously touch once a month (when I see that there is a security updates/virus DAT on my mac which I use for work) lol

You cannot protect people from their own stupidity, you can just make a profit 


edit: sorry - I did not see Fryke's post - how about we move this discussion to the Café ? -whoever is interested anyway - or lets just lay it to rest


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## fjdouse (Jun 19, 2005)

RGrphc2 said:
			
		

> wanted to throw the box out the window and smash it with a hammer...



I can't recommend that enough, my father years ago showed me the light by throwing his offending Atari VCS, VCR, rubbish movies and anything else 'unfit' out of the window in rage, and I've followed his teachings as a good son. I've thrown PCs, kicked them, jumped on them, taken my mighty "Hammer of Corrective Justice" to them, even printers have been thrown from the top of buildings in annoyance. Catharsis in action, very good stuff. Until recently I had a stack of PCs in my yard which had offended my eye. All treated with the utter contempt they deserved. There are a number of good sites on this and a pick axe is highly recommended.


Fryke
I think the Dell thing has run it's course, may the thread rest in peace.


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## Qion (Jun 19, 2005)

fjdouse said:
			
		

> I can't recommend that enough, my father years ago showed me the light by throwing his offending Atari VCS, VCR, rubbish movies and anything else 'unfit' out of the window in rage, and I've followed his teachings as a good son. I've thrown PCs, kicked them, jumped on them, taken my mighty "Hammer of Corrective Justice" to them, even printers have been thrown from the top of buildings in annoyance. Catharsis in action, very good stuff. Until recently I had a stack of PCs in my yard which had offended my eye. All treated with the utter contempt they deserved. There are a number of good sites on this and a pick axe is highly recommended.
> 
> 
> Fryke
> I think the Dell thing has run it's course, may the thread rest in peace.



Haha thats funny stuff. It's not just PC's that get old though.... I once shot the hell out of an old PowerBook -100Mhz I think- with a .22 rifle from across a yard, then took a hunting knife and tore it apart.... I sure did learn alot about the inner workings of old laptops  

I agree with fj, move this thread and may it rest in peace.


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