# Longhorn



## mightyjlr (Apr 28, 2003)

Longhorn 

I really hope this is what the new Windows OS looks like.  Wow.  I thought XP was ugly, but now Microsoft is going out of its way to ruin the user interface.  I have been a windows user all of my life, and still use it, but I can't see myself using this.  Anyone else think this is the ugliest UI they've ever seen?


----------



## GulGnu (Apr 28, 2003)

Well, I'd hold off on judgement of the look of the GUI - usually that's the last thing to be finalized. What worries me about Longhorn is all that DRM goodness MS is stuffing it with... And if Apple goes all DRM too, well... Hopefully, by then Linux will be a useful desktop OS...

Regards / GulGnu

-Stabil som fan!


----------



## Captain Code (Apr 28, 2003)

MS is obsessed with that horrible blue colour.


----------



## ksv (Apr 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Captain Code _
> *MS is obsessed with that horrible blue colour. *



yea, and they seem to like mixing it with the colors it goes the least good together with.


----------



## toast (Apr 28, 2003)

The only thing I notice about the screenshot posted by mightyjlr is the following: I don't understand a damn thing of what's going on.
And true, this blue obsession is sickening.

Longhorn will be, IMHO, a perfect Microsoft product. Falsely elegant, falsely practical, falsely new.


----------



## Stridder44 (Apr 28, 2003)

Gee guys. It looks alot like WindowsXP...except everything seems flatter and well, ALOT more blue-ish. Oh! And there is that side bar off to the right. *sigh* I wonder if Microsoft will ever come out with a completly new OS. 

Speaking of different OS's...maybe one day there will be an OS that looks Completly different from any other OS out there. One that doesnt have a menu bar or stores files differently than in "folders", like most all OS's use now-a-days (not to say that the current OS with it's menu bars and folders arn't efficent...I like them that way.) Heh,  Im thinking way into the future....


----------



## Dominyo (Apr 28, 2003)

I've heard of a couple OS's in development attempting to shift the computing paradigm away from desktops and files and folders. Didn't get into  specifics, but they sounded interesting.


----------



## Rhino_G3 (Apr 28, 2003)

Microsoft can't afford to go to an entirely new GUI.

It will alienate 75% of their user base...  of course these are the less technicaly inclined 75% but they are users none the less.  
These are the people that freak out when a shortcut is missing from their desktop (Don't laugh, it happens quite frequently  )

People want the latest and greatest in the OS department, Even thought they don't need it, although they don't want to have to relearn everything that they already know.


----------



## Arden (Apr 28, 2003)

At least Longhorn doesn't seem to have any of that sour apple eye candy that XP has, even if it's a little (snicker) heavy on the sour blueberry.

I think if you want an OS that's radically different from anything we're used to, it should incorporate interactive holograms, something like the shuttle controls on "Earth: Final Conflict."


----------



## Tigger (Apr 29, 2003)

Here are some more screenshots:
http://www.activewin.com/screenshots/longhorn/

Doesn't look to different from XP to me...
Fortunatly MS still lets you choose how the OS looks like, they have a silvery theme included (At least in XP) and you can choose to use the Classic GUI.

If they manage to get some really good multitasking into Longhorn (At least TaskBar no more part of Explorer.exe) I don't care what the GUI looks like (Well, umm... maybe I change my mind if I see the final version of the GUI  )


----------



## Cat (Apr 29, 2003)

> The only thing I notice about the screenshot posted by mightyjlr is the following: I don't understand a damn thing of what's going on.
> And true, this blue obsession is sickening.
> 
> Longhorn will be, IMHO, a perfect Microsoft product. Falsely elegant, falsely practical, falsely new.


Very true ... There's a taskbar, and another taskbar on the right and a menubar at the top, and under that an app-specific menubar, and two more menubars, and the start menu/panel and a whole lot of buttons and icons and , well ... quite clear, no?

The last time I had such an ultimately cluttered screen was when I had Gnome and VPC running at the same time ... fortunately at least they had different colors and window mangers ... in the Longhorn everything is just straight blue ... never heard of color coding and ergonomics, huh?


----------



## tsizKEIK (Apr 29, 2003)

who cares about long horn ? i dont 

i care bout panther 

(btw . that longhorn thing looks ugly )


----------



## fryke (Apr 29, 2003)

That was a good last word for an unneeded thread, tsizKEIK, thank you. Hello! We're APPLE News & Rumours here. ;-)


----------



## hulkaros (Apr 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by fryke _
> *That was a good last word for an unneeded thread, tsizKEIK, thank you. Hello! We're APPLE News & Rumours here. ;-) *



I don't know Fryke!  For SO long we have people here posting anything about Wintel... I don't agree with this but maybe www.macosx.com should consider a thread with name of something like this?: Wintel News & Rumours

I am bored to come every now and then here only to find "news" about Wintel...

Maybe a new site rule will put people in their place?


----------



## tsizKEIK (Apr 29, 2003)

lets make this post a bit more useful .... 

any1 care to explain why the fonts look that bad on iTunes4 ???


----------



## kalantna (Apr 29, 2003)

What cracks me up the most is that they codenamed it "Milestone 5." Where are the other Milestones?

Would they be listed something like this?

1. Microsoft steals code from Apple and Xerox in the early 80s.

2. Microsoft buys out its first company; passes the software off as its own.

3. Microsoft buys out its thirtieth company; passes the software off as its own.

4. Microsoft buys out its fiftieth company; passes the software off as its own.


----------



## bootleg (Apr 29, 2003)

Now now there was no real "stealing"

And Apple took from Xeron and then M$ took from Apple


----------



## dlloyd (Apr 29, 2003)

tsizKEIK: I don't see how putting that in here will make this thread more useful. If you would just look around, this hs already been answered: make sure in the General section of System Prefs that you have anti-aliasing turned on down to at least 9 pts. That should fix it.


----------



## binaryDigit (Apr 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kalantna _
> *What cracks me up the most is that they codenamed it "Milestone 5." Where are the other Milestones?
> 
> Would they be listed something like this?
> ...



M$ never "stole" code.  And they are no more guilty than Apple when it comes to "borrowing" the idea of a gui (or at least some major concepts).

As for buying companies and "passes software off as their own", uh, what would you have them do after buying the company?  Once they bought the company, it IS their own by definition right?  Plus, lets see, Apple buys NeXT, NeXTStep becomes basis for their next gen OS.  Apple uses open source web browser, uses it as basis for new browser.  Apple "leverages" many free open source packages (e.g. Samba) in their new OS.

Micro$oft may not be the poster child for fair play and the highest quality software, but if you're gonna blast them, please use much better examples.


----------



## gwynarion (Apr 29, 2003)

What else would you expect from a cow but a big pile of bull sh**?  I think it looks like some ugly-ass bad Kaleidoscope scheme, personally.


----------



## Androo (Apr 29, 2003)

That's just Windows XP with a blue appearance, not a new os.... it'll prolly be the same as xp, though it has a few more features now.
But still, it's just Windows XPblue.. thatshould be the name
Sandwhiches?


----------



## tsizKEIK (Apr 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by dlloyd _
> *tsizKEIK: I don't see how putting that in here will make this thread more useful. If you would just look around, this hs already been answered: make sure in the General section of System Prefs that you have anti-aliasing turned on down to at least 9 pts. That should fix it. *



ive already done that. but look what i get...


----------



## mightyjlr (Apr 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by tsizKEIK _
> *ive already done that. but look what i get... *



you need to turn the font thing down to 8, and then restart iTunes


----------



## boneske (Apr 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Androo _
> *That's just Windows XP with a blue appearance, not a new os.... it'll prolly be the same as xp, though it has a few more features now.
> But still, it's just Windows XPblue.. thatshould be the name
> Sandwhiches? *



Remember Windows XP betas?  It looked like Windows 9X on crack until the second to last beta release. Microsoft always works on whats under the hood (Even though most of the time they break it even more) before they slap on a new UI.  Just wait until the last Release Canidate before bashing what the UI looks like.

Hopefully this time they wont make a UI that looks like a Warner Bros. cartoon.


----------



## kalantna (Apr 29, 2003)

binary:
Take a joke man.


----------



## Rhino_G3 (Apr 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Androo _
> *That's just Windows XP with a blue appearance, not a new os.... it'll prolly be the same as xp, though it has a few more features now.
> But still, it's just Windows XPblue.. thatshould be the name
> Sandwhiches? *



Have you ever actualy researched any changes in the OS other than the screenshots?  I'm just wondering.  After doing some searching on my own and seeing a beta actualy running it appears to be far more than a new theme for XP.

For starters the file system is going to be completely new.  It's tentatively titled WinFS.  It's basically a file system with no directory structure.  The location of the file is stored in an SQL driven database.  File searches take a matter of seconds, moving and copying large files are the same.  I must say, so far it's been a drastic improvement... even though there seems to be even more blatant hand holding than in XP.


----------



## tsizKEIK (Apr 30, 2003)

No matter how much Windows changes it will allways have many problems !!!

quote: If you patch your systems to rid yourself of one bug, you wind up with an entirely new bug. This seems to be a common theme with Microsoft -- a company that can't seem to understand why its customers don't rush to install every patch.    

Microsoft always makes it harder for its users. Thats one of the reasons why i switched. and PCs are soooo ugly (LOL)


----------



## hulkaros (Apr 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by tsizKEIK _
> *No matter how much Windows changes it will allways have many problems !!!
> 
> quote: If you patch your systems to rid yourself of one bug, you wind up with an entirely new bug. This seems to be a common theme with Microsoft -- a company that can't seem to understand why its customers don't rush to install every patch.
> ...



I think that you mess things up... That thing is NOT Windows problem but an Office one... And to be fair Office 2000 problem... As of now, close to half of the Wintel world, must have Office XP under control...

And Apple had similar update problems with their products, too!

But I could not agree more that Wintels are DAMN ugly 

My question however is this:
-How come this thread is still open after all these Wintel only related postings?

Hmmm, maybe www.macosx.com Admins/Moderators try VERY hard to prove to people out there that we, the Mac users, can discuss about Wintels too without any bias towards them...

Oh, yes, we love Wintels in here SO much! Dark Side rulez! Let's unite in peace with them in order to bring balance into the Force


----------



## Sirtovin (May 2, 2003)

I am glad I made the "Switch" Screw M$ and it's "Monopoly"


----------



## Rhino_G3 (May 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by tsizKEIK _
> *No matter how much Windows changes it will allways have many problems  *



You've got that right.  It seems that MS is taking baby steps in improving their OS but I don't feel they'll ever get the ease of use of the Mac OS


----------



## Stridder44 (May 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rhino_G3 _
> *Microsoft can't afford to go to an entirely new GUI.
> 
> It will alienate 75% of their user base...  of course these are the less technicaly inclined 75% but they are users none the less.
> These are the people that freak out when a shortcut is missing from their desktop (Don't laugh, it happens quite frequently  )*



This is true. Going to a whole new system GUI is a BIG change for anyone on any OS.


----------



## Stridder44 (May 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Dominyo _
> *I've heard of a couple OS's in development attempting to shift the computing paradigm away from desktops and files and folders. Didn't get into  specifics, but they sounded interesting. *



Dude, that would be sweet.


----------



## toast (May 2, 2003)

People have been throwing rumors about new conceptual OS's for years now. Last year, the MIT said the concept of Desktop was out of date and braked workflows.

Still, a computer with no Desktop does not mean a damn thing today.


----------



## Ripcord (May 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sirtovin _
> *I am glad I made the "Switch" Screw M$ and it's "Monopoly" *



Quite.  Comments like this make me proud to be a Mac community member.

(now I'm just whining, but for the love of God, when will people learn the difference between "it's" and "its"?  Or "they're", "there" and "their", for that matter...)


----------



## aaike (May 3, 2003)

People are commenting about the screenshot not looking verry different from current XP with some blue. But to be a litle critic, the screenshots of panther (although fake) don't seem impressive at all... (but I believe panther will rock  anyway...)


----------



## cellfish (May 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by tsizKEIK _
> *No matter how much Windows changes it will allways have many problems !!!
> 
> quote: If you patch your systems to rid yourself of one bug, you wind up with an entirely new bug. This seems to be a common theme with Microsoft -- a company that can't seem to understand why its customers don't rush to install every patch.
> ...



That is not true. Pay as much for a PC as you would for a MAc and I guarantee the PC will look as good if not better than the Mac. Get yourself a black and grey viewsonic monitor, with a logitech elite keyboard and a logitech mx500 optical and already you have a nice desktop. Add a Noblesse case and you have one of the prettiest setups... plus it looks personal. Every Apple desktop looks the same save for a few external peripherals. Besides, have you checked Alienware's latest offerings? IMO they look a ton better than all of what Apple offers.


----------



## monktus (May 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by aaike _
> *People are commenting about the screenshot not looking verry different from current XP with some blue. But to be a litle critic, the screenshots of panther (although fake) don't seem impressive at all... (but I believe panther will rock  anyway...) *


The main changes with Panther will probably be backend stuff like 64bit support, osx doesn't really need any big gui changes anyway.


----------



## tsizKEIK (May 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cellfish _
> *That is not true. Pay as much for a PC as you would for a MAc and I guarantee the PC will look as good if not better than the Mac. Get yourself a black and grey viewsonic monitor, with a logitech elite keyboard and a logitech mx500 optical and already you have a nice desktop. Add a Noblesse case and you have one of the prettiest setups... plus it looks personal. Every Apple desktop looks the same save for a few external peripherals. Besides, have you checked Alienware's latest offerings? IMO they look a ton better than all of what Apple offers. *



i could argue about this with a 3 or 4 long paragraph post .. but at the end of the day its all a matter of taste. ill just ask u one question: have u even seen Allienware setups in movies? and if yes, how many ? 1, 2  or 3 ???
on the other hand ive seen numerous macs in movies and tv shows : old iMacs, new iMacs, Apple studio displays, Apple 20th anniversary etc... (maybe you should refer to the post of apple sightings in movies). if macs are expensive and not the nicest or most impressive computers arround, then im sure those Hollywood guys will start using Allienware instead of macs in their movies


----------



## Rhino_G3 (May 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cellfish _
> *That is not true. Pay as much for a PC as you would for a MAc and I guarantee the PC will look as good if not better than the Mac. Get yourself a black and grey viewsonic monitor, with a logitech elite keyboard and a logitech mx500 optical and already you have a nice desktop. Add a Noblesse case and you have one of the prettiest setups... plus it looks personal. Every Apple desktop looks the same save for a few external peripherals. Besides, have you checked Alienware's latest offerings? IMO they look a ton better than all of what Apple offers. *



I will truthfully never understand what the obsession that case modding has brought about.  The windows and the Cold Cathode tubes have gotta go.  The "coolness" of a PC seems to be directly proportional to the amount of fans you can cram into it.  It looks personalized but gaudy.  I really prefer the shape and colors of my G3 case.  It looks elegant. In my opinion no PC has ever looked near as good.  Alienware's computers really don't impress me.  They look like a standard PC I could build and paint green or blue.

The only thing I have planned for my mac is candy blue flames on the inside of the side case plastic, beginning at the front of case and reaching toward the apple logo. 

But this isn't until this computer gets duty serving MP3's and storing my home folders remotely... as soon as she's retired from full time service.


----------



## Rhino_G3 (May 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rhino_G3 _
> *I will truthfully never understand the obsession that case modding has brought about.  The windows and the Cold Cathode tubes have gotta go.  The "coolness" of a PC seems to be directly proportional to the amount of fans you can cram into it.  It looks personalized but gaudy.  I really prefer the shape and colors of my G3 case.  It looks elegant. In my opinion no PC has ever looked near as good.  There are a few cases out there that do look decent although none have ever compared to the Powermac case.  Alienware's computers really don't impress me.  They look like a standard PC I could build and paint green or blue.
> 
> The only thing I have planned for my mac is candy blue flames on the inside of the side case plastic, beginning at the front of case and reaching toward the apple logo.
> ...


----------



## ApeintheShell (May 4, 2003)

so will they explain what XP means in the next release?

will it come with "hee ha the next generation" skins?

alienware is similar to having a tree next to your toilet. Its nice for a while until the bugs bite you. 

so this is a serious rumor related to apple somehow? tell me more!


----------



## GulGnu (May 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ApeintheShell _
> *so will they explain what XP means in the next release?
> 
> *



Doesn't it stand for eXPerience? Or sumthing?

Regards / GulGnu


----------



## monktus (May 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GulGnu _
> *Doesn't it stand for eXPerience? Or sumthing?
> 
> Regards / GulGnu *


eXtra Pants


----------



## tsizKEIK (May 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GulGnu _
> *Doesn't it stand for eXPerience? Or sumthing?
> 
> Regards / GulGnu *



eXtra Pain


----------



## Rhino_G3 (May 4, 2003)

eXtra Processor!


----------



## boneske (May 4, 2003)

eXPensive $$$$$$$


----------



## Decado (May 4, 2003)

soon to be an eX Pc


----------



## MrNivit1 (May 4, 2003)

Is it a habit for MS to name it's OS's after bovine species?... Guess it would make sense... new OS = new Cashcow.


----------



## dave17lax (May 4, 2003)

Well back to the original topic....I'd just like to show all of you my favorite screenshot from Longhorn.

http://www.activewin.com/screenshots/longhorn/Image26.jpg

I mean, it just makes sense. Perfection.


----------



## boneske (May 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by dave17lax _
> *Well back to the original topic....I'd just like to show all of you my favorite screenshot from Longhorn.
> 
> http://www.activewin.com/screenshots/longhorn/Image26.jpg
> ...




All I have to say about that screenshot is that Longhorn is in Alpha I would expect the OS to crash alot.


----------



## dave17lax (May 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rhino_G3 _
> *But this isn't until this computer gets duty serving MP3's and storing my home folders remotely...  *



This combined with one of those new Rendezvous-equipped stereos and I will throw down. The thought of this makes me quiver. Beee yootiful.

_
?Apple and Philips share a vision for the future,? said Kleisterlee. ?We both believe that consumers want devices throughout the home to talk to each other, so that, for example, the music stored in iTunes on your Mac can play through the Philips stereo system in your living room, or the photos stored in iPhoto can be displayed as a stunning slideshow on your Philips Flat TV..."
_
http://www.newscenter.philips.com/u...FPressRelease.asp?lArticleId=2495&lNodeId=602


----------



## Giaguara (May 4, 2003)

From Slashdot: _*"It looks like this may be Microsoft's equivalent to OS X "*_


----------



## dave17lax (May 5, 2003)

BTW....yes, I work for Phillips...GO P!

Edit: no i don't work for them. gosh.


----------



## Rhino_G3 (May 5, 2003)

Ahh, very nice.  I'll be in line with you to purchase one!


----------



## drustar (May 6, 2003)

I don't understand why MS decides to call the OS, Longhorn. What is so appealing about a horn being long? Even though Mr. Gates is married, is he trying to tell us something?

And what's with the clock? It's so overbearing and annoying!


----------



## monktus (May 6, 2003)

Looks like explorer is still integrated into the OS, not good.


----------



## dave17lax (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by drustar _
> *I don't understand why MS decides to call the OS, Longhorn. What is so appealing about a horn being long? Even though Mr. Gates is married, is he trying to tell us something?
> 
> And what's with the clock? It's so overbearing and annoying! *



kind of like the osx clock in the dock


----------



## cellfish (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by monktus _
> *Looks like explorer is still integrated into the OS, not good. *



Not good is not true. Having explorer integrated into the system has way more advantages than it has disadvantages. It allows for a greater fluidity of operation using one's computer with the internet. On a PC, access to the Internet through Windows is seamless because Explorer is part of the GUI. Even Linux now has its Konqueror web browser as a part of the GUI (in other words, if Linux adopted it, you know it's good). Apple didn't do it and nobody knows why. But I guarantee you that once Apple integrates Safari with the GUI, the people here, you as well, will cheer and talk about how Apple 'innovated'.

Andre


----------



## dlloyd (May 6, 2003)

Not true. I never use intergrated part IE when I am on windows. The only advantage as I see it is that IE opens nice and fast on a PC.
Safari opens plenty fast for me, so I don't care on my Mac. If you intergrate Safari into the Mac OS, then you can't remove it. The nice thing about OS X is it seems that Apple has managed to keep it fairly stand-alone. Help Viewer, on the other hand...


----------



## monktus (May 6, 2003)

I see your point, all good in theory but Internet Explorer is not something I'd like to use as part of my gui. I use windows on my flatmate's PCs sometimes and it causes a fair bit of instability. I wouldn't like Safari doing the same quite yet either but of course Safari is just a beta at the moment, although quite a stable one. Once it matures I could see the possibilites of integration. I'm sure you'll understand why I'm dubious about Explorer though, I'll probably be convinced in time!


----------



## monktus (May 6, 2003)

And of course as dlloyd points out, you're stuck with it, and being stuck with IE isn't good!


----------



## boneske (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by monktus _
> *And of course as dlloyd points out, you're stuck with it, and being stuck with IE isn't good! *



Windows XP SP1 has an option to hide IE from the user, and I am pretty sure that Longhon will have the same feature.  They had to do it because of the whole Netscape/anti-trust lawsuit. 

SP1 Review


----------



## dlloyd (May 6, 2003)

Oh? So what powered the folder browsing part? I thought IE did all that too.


----------



## boneske (May 6, 2003)

There is IExplorer.exe and Explorer.exe, IExplorer is your Web browser, Explorer.exe is just like Finder for MacOSX


----------



## tsizKEIK (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by boneske _
> *There is IExplorer.exe and Explorer.exe, IExplorer is your Web browser, Explorer.exe is just like Finder for MacOSX *



only explorer.exe crashes all the time... where as the finder doesnt


----------



## Captain Code (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by boneske _
> *There is IExplorer.exe and Explorer.exe, IExplorer is your Web browser, Explorer.exe is just like Finder for MacOSX *



But, they both use the same underlying code.  If you type a URL into the "Address" in Windows Explorer(Explorer.exe), you'll be browsing that website just like you would with Internet Explorer.


----------



## dlloyd (May 6, 2003)

Ooooooooh. I didn't know


----------



## binaryDigit (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Captain Code _
> *But, they both use the same underlying code.  If you type a URL into the "Address" in Windows Explorer(Explorer.exe), you'll be browsing that website just like you would with Internet Explorer. *



They are not necessarily the same underlying code (they might be now, but they weren't back when the active desktop was first released).  Note that it is possible to embed IE functionality in any app.  Microsoft uses this extensively (and is really what they mean when they claim that they can't easily "remove" IE from Windoze) in things like Help.  Many other companies use this to embed browser functionality in their apps or in some cases to come up with full blown browsers.

The iexlorer.exe application is really just a front end for the actually html rendering/http processing engine which actually resides in a bunch of components.

This is actually a very good design, EXCEPT for the fact that instead of building an infrastructure that allows the plugging in of ANY html renderer or http processor, they only allow IE.  If Mozilla wanted to add this level of functionality, they'd have to roll their own and try to get the interfaces as close as possible to the existing objects.


----------



## boneske (May 6, 2003)

hmmm, what about Windows 95 it has Explorer.exe and didnt come with IE built-in?


----------



## binaryDigit (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by boneske _
> *hmmm, what about Windows 95 it has Explorer.exe and didnt come with IE built-in? *



Entirely depends on what you mean by "built-in".  Win95 certainly shipped with IE, now how much of IE was monolithic and how much of it was broken out into COM components, I don't know.  Remember that "built-in" simply means that there are parts of what we know as IE that are available as COM objects, and that in recent MS operating systems, more of their other apps (including "normal" explorer) take advantage of the functionality provided by these COM objects.  I never really used the "consumer" side of Windoze (well not since Win3.11), I've been exclusively down the NT track, and there I know that this integration happened in the middle of the NT4 timeframe (it became available for NT4 users as a service pack).  I'm sure this coincided with it's development for Win2K, though I can't remember which consumer version was out then (98?)


----------



## boneske (May 6, 2003)

95 at the very begining never shipped with IE installed, I believe OSR-2 was released with IE 3.51 or some 3X version on a different disc. 

Win2K(NT5 back in the day) development started back in 1996 and Windows 98 wasnt even a itch in Bill Gates pants.  

Windows 98 was suppost to be a minior update and was suppost to be released earlier than what it did (like most MS products), the soul reason why they didnt release on time was because they decided to integrate IE 4 into. 

If you want to read more look up the road maps of 98 and 2K on www.winsupersite.com


----------



## tsizKEIK (May 6, 2003)

and if u want to read more about Apples history click here  .... im sure ull find it much more interesting


----------



## boneske (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by tsizKEIK _
> *and if u want to read more about Apples history click here  .... im sure ull find it much more interesting  *



I think people here already know the history of apple like the back of their hand


----------



## tsizKEIK (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by boneske _
> *I think people here already know the history of apple like the back of their hand  *



i dont. 
and dont forget that there are new-comers  here that are switchers.

i thought it would be useful. since ur link about Windoze history shouldnt really interest any1 in a APPPLE news & rumors forum  (cause if it does. then maybe we should start worrying)


----------



## boneske (May 6, 2003)

Hey this is a windows thread.... Someone on this thread wanted to know what consumer version of Windows was out when they started developing Windows 2000 so I gave him an answer. I know for sure a great deal of people dont know the history of Windows either.


----------



## hulkaros (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by boneske _
> *Hey this is a windows thread.... Someone on this thread wanted to know what consumer version of Windows was out when they started developing Windows 2000 so I gave him an answer. I know for sure a great deal of people dont know the history of Windows either. *



...we have a Windows thread in an Apple News & Rumors forum in the first place?

PLUS, if anyone wants to know about the history of Windows he/she should be better off here and straight to www.microsoft.com instead...

For those who want to know about Wintel migrate there ASAP and come back if and only if you want to know about *"Apple News & Rumors"*


----------



## boneske (May 6, 2003)

Wintel??? Who came up with that the Linux users or Apple users?  Anyways you are right we shouldnt have a Windows thread in Apple News & Rumors.  But I also dont think its right that anytime there is a Windows Thread the Admins delete instead of moving it to the proper place (The Cafe).


----------



## tsizKEIK (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by boneske _
> *Hey this is a windows thread.... Someone on this thread wanted to know what consumer version of Windows was out when they started developing Windows 2000 so I gave him an answer. I know for sure a great deal of people dont know the history of Windows either. *



oh im sorry. i didnt know they had a history. i just thought windows was(and is) a bad attempt to copy other peoples innovative ideas  (he he he)


----------



## boneske (May 6, 2003)

Hey dont bash Windows, just dont use it.  I use both Windows and Mac at work and at home.  I enjoy using both OS's.  Look a little closer at Apple's history who did they get the idea of GUI?? Hmmm, could it be Xerox.


----------



## hulkaros (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by boneske _
> *Hey dont bash Windows, just dont use it.  I use both Windows and Mac at work and at home.  I enjoy using both OS's.  Look a little closer at Apple's history who did they get the idea of GUI?? Hmmm, could it be Xerox. *



We don't bash Windows... Just Wintel in general! 

As for the GUI: If you look closer to M$ history where did they get the idea of GUI? Could it be Apple?


----------



## boneske (May 6, 2003)

I dont have to look closer at the history of Microsoft to know that they stole the GUI from Apple.  Apple was wrong and so was Microsoft but that is business, you do what you have to do to survive.


----------



## binaryDigit (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by boneske _
> *I dont have to look closer at the history of Microsoft to know that they stole the GUI from Apple.  Apple was wrong and so was Microsoft but that is business, you do what you have to do to survive. *



Ugh, must we go over this again and again.  Microsoft did not steal the gui from Apple.  Both Apple AND Microsoft copied many of the ideas for how gui's should work from Xerox PARC.  AAMOF, several of the PARC people left Xerox in disgust when they refused to put any real effort into commercialising it and went to Microsoft!



> _Originally posted by tsizKEIK _
> * i thought it would be useful. since ur link about Windoze history shouldnt really interest any1 in a APPPLE news & rumors forum  (cause if it does. then maybe we should start worrying)*
> 
> True, why would anyone on this forum be interested in getting an accurate history of computing.  Better to toss about comments like:
> ...


----------



## boneske (May 6, 2003)

Here you guys go, here our homework for tonight. The history of the GUI. BinaryDigit will hand out the tests tomorrow.

http://www.sitepoint.com/article/511



> At any rate, Jobs, who was first told by Raskin about the fun going on at PARC in 1976, decided that he wanted to bring a team of Appleniks into PARC and see what was causing such a buzz  but again, the idea of Jobs coming in like a kid touring Epcot with a tape recorder hidden under his shirt is mistaken. Apple negotiated a deal with Xerox; in return for a block of Apple stock, Xerox allowed Jobs and his team to tour PARC in December 1979, take notes, and implement some of the ideas and concepts being bounced around at PARC in their own creations. Im not sure how Xerox felt about Apple subsequently hiring half  perhaps the better half  of PARCs staff away from them, but the process was relatively above-board; no night kidnappings or bribes under the table at Jack In the Box. Xerox allowed Apple to use their ideas in their machines. As Wozniak says on his Website, Steve Jobs made the case to Xerox PARC execs directly that they had great technology but that Apple knew how to make it affordable enough to change the world. This was very open. In the end, Xerox got a large block of Apple stock for sharing the technology. Thats not stealing outright.



And the Microsoft version of the story:



> At the end of 1981, Steve Jobs paid a visit to Microsoft to give them a look at the embryonic Mac, and authorized Microsoft to develop apps for the new, GUI-based system. From 1981-1984, Microsoft folks were all over the Apple labs, working alongside Apple techs to develop applications for the Mac. In the process, Microsoft acquired an intimate familiarity with the inner workings of the Mac design.


----------



## binaryDigit (May 6, 2003)

While you're doing your homework, please make one crucial observation.  You will without a doubt find many accounts of "the early days".  Not all these accounts will be the same.  As a matter of fact, the amount of variation is quite startling.  They run the gamut from "Apple steals from Xerox, M$ steals from Apple" to "Apple codevelops with Xerox while M$ stumbles bumbles on their own (while also codeveloping with Xerox *and* Apple).

Some important common themes:

- Apple started developing the gui before Steve ever visted PARC.

- Both Steve AND Bill visted PARC at around the same time, they both "saw the light".

- Microsoft was active in working with Apple in the early days and indeed get to see a lot of early stuff.

Some curious discrepencies in accounts:

- Just how much does the early Mac borrow from Alto/Star/Smalltalk?  Some say quite a bit, others say not much at all.

- Jef Raskin left Apple when he didn't like the direction that the Mac was going.  But he was a PARC guy. BUT his later attempt at his "pure" Mac vision doesn't even have a gui or pointing device.

- Some say M$ borrowed heavily from Apple, but yet the Windows API is a complete mess.  Part of this can be explained by the respective platforms (DOS + 16 bit x86 vs from scratch 68k), but Win is not an x86 version of MacOS.

One good book is the "Mac Bathroom Reader", it seems to be acknowledged by many as being one of the more accurate as well as being a fun read.  Be sure to not get sucked in by a single source because it happens to jive with your particular prejudices.


----------



## boneske (May 6, 2003)

Dang its like the bible, too many versions!! lol


----------



## binaryDigit (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by boneske _
> *Dang its like the bible, too many versions!! lol *



So would that make PC folk Catholics and Apple folk Orthodox Jews?


----------



## tsizKEIK (May 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by binaryDigit _
> *..
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## hulkaros (May 7, 2003)

*Originally posted by binaryDigit 
Ugh, must we go over this again and again.  Microsoft did not steal the gui from Apple.  Both Apple AND Microsoft copied many of the ideas for how gui's should work from Xerox PARC.  AAMOF, several of the PARC people left Xerox in disgust when they refused to put any real effort into commercialising it and went to Microsoft!*

And what exactly was the Xerox GUI product? Can I install it in a computer be it Mac or Wintel? Nope! Therefore, NO Xerox GUI product for us... Oh, you mean then Apple's GUI, eh? You surely don't mean M$ GUI because that's a steal not from Xerox (because such a GUI never existed beyond their Parc) but from Apple... That's history!  

*True, why would anyone on this forum be interested in getting an accurate history of computing.  Better to toss about comments like:*

That's the problem BinaryDigit! You want THAT much to argue with Pro Mac people and that's why you cannot even read... We NEVER said that Wintel's history is not welcome here in general but in an Apple News & Rumors... Read first then argue just for the sake of arguing which it seems that you and other people around here seem to enjoy... 

*oh im sorry. i didnt know they had a history. i just thought windows was(and is) a bad attempt to copy other peoples innovative ideas  (he he he)*

Not only copy but buy and terminate as well! And yes, this is their history! Steal if you aren't able to buy then destroy (aka monopoly) everything...

*I would highly recommend people actually do some research into the history of the GUI and Xerox and Apple and Microsoft (and no, the made for tv movie doesn't count, it is a dramatization) before propagating this misperceptions. *

There are no propagandas around here other than how one MUST read about Wintel in an Apple News & Rumors forum... I think you never heard about The Cafe or something before... Maybe because your agenda is argue first then read...


----------



## boneske (May 7, 2003)

Microsoft history is very important Apple also. Microsoft partnered up with Apple,and Microsoft was paid to produce AppleBASIC and the Z-80 Softcard for the Apple II. If Im not mistaking they made more programs for them than that.

Now if you guys are complaining about a history lesson being done in Apple News and Rumors I can contact a Mod and have him move our history lesson to the Cafe.


----------



## binaryDigit (May 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by hulkaros _
> *
> And what exactly was the Xerox GUI product? Can I install it in a computer be it Mac or Wintel? Nope! Therefore, NO Xerox GUI product for us... Oh, you mean then Apple's GUI, eh? You surely don't mean M$ GUI because that's a steal not from Xerox (because such a GUI never existed beyond their Parc) but from Apple... That's history!  *



Are you saying that because Xerox never marketed a standalone gui product that therefore there was nothing to copy?  You do know that Xerox actually sold the Star right?  And saying that because you can't "install it on a Mac or Wintel" that somehow it isn't important couldn't have been "borrowed from" is just laughable.

*
that's the problem BinaryDigit! You want THAT much to argue with Pro Mac people and that's why you cannot even read... We NEVER said that Wintel's history is not welcome here in general but in an Apple News & Rumors... Read first then argue just for the sake of arguing which it seems that you and other people around here seem to enjoy... *

Actually I'd recommend that YOU read first.  Every post that I quoted said *nothing* of the inappropriatness to this forum.  I've seen those posts, and I was not commenting on them.  Plus by your definition, it's fine for you to post your comments, but when someone doesn't agree, or has issue with what you post, then they're labeled as "argumentative".  Oh, and BTW, *I* am a "Pro Mac" person as well  and have been literally since there was a Mac.  I'm just an anti-misinformation person.

*There are no propagandas around here other than how one MUST read about Wintel in an Apple News & Rumors forum... I think you never heard about The Cafe or something before... Maybe because your agenda is argue first then read... *

Again, you should read EXACTLY what I was responding to.

That brings up the issue of "Apple News and Rumours".  Perhaps a more appropriate name would be "Apple Related News and Rumours" or even just "News and Rumours" as the things being discussed often are not about Apple itself, but news that is of interest or somehow affects Apple and it's users.

I didn't originate this thread, but as much as you seem to dislike it, you can't help but keep it alive.  The title is clear, there is no reason for you to be reading it if you are truely not interested in it.  This would have been a short thread about Longhorn, it's UI and a bit of technical info about IE.  Some Mac folk would have found it interesting and that would have been that.  You started off fine, you didn't feel that it was appropriate for this forum and you made a comment to the moderators.  Beyond that you should have just ignored it if the subject matter didn't interest you.  Though you may feel that this thread is off topic, adding even more off topic posts is even worse.  Your flippant comments surely didn't add anything to the thread.


----------



## fryke (May 7, 2003)

No, it's Apple News & Rumors. And Longhorn, while definitely not an Apple News & Rumors title, was an interesting thread at the beginning, I think. Also, times were slow, so we let it run here...

I don't know whether the Café is the right place, but I guess there's some Windows Beta discussion forums out there that would fit. Sadly, I can't move the thread there, now... ;-)

I'm moving this to Opinions now, as that's what it fits more into at the current state.


----------



## hulkaros (May 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by binaryDigit _
> *Blah-blah*



Relax mate! You gonna get yourself a heartattack or something! 

Peace and I love ya!


----------



## Androo (May 8, 2003)

So that means the new VPC 7  xpversion for mac will be less money, since it needs to feature longhorn now which will replace the high price of xp, and knock the xp price lower. meh i'll just DL the new vpc 7, i'll only use it once lol. I used it for kazaa, but it usually messes up... trust microsoft..


----------



## fryke (May 10, 2003)

Hmm... Buying VPC for Kazaa would certainly be quite a bit of overhead for a free software. But then again, if you're using Kazaa to pirate copyrighted material, I guess your conscience is fine with pirating VPC, too, eh?

Here's to the hope that Apple will start to generate some change in people's minds with iTunes Music Store... If only it were international and Windows compatible already...


----------



## hulkaros (May 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Androo _
> *So that means the new VPC 7  xpversion for mac will be less money, since it needs to feature longhorn now which will replace the high price of xp, and knock the xp price lower. meh i'll just DL the new vpc 7, i'll only use it once lol. I used it for kazaa, but it usually messes up... trust microsoft.. *



...chose RealPC if it was to run Windows apps... The current version is only for Mac OS 9 but the up and coming will support OS X as well and also will give you the ability to even utilize your Mac's graphics in order to let you run Windows 3d graphic apps and games!!! But I would personally buy such a product... Also, about using Kazaa here are some alternatives for Mac which some will work for you some may not:
- Hotline
- DirectConnect
- Acquisition
- Carracho
- LimeWire
- Neo

Anyways, I would personally try to utilize them if I could never find an original song like say:
- Stevie Wonder (if I'm not mistaken) - Part Time Lovers 

I cannot wait Apple's Music Store for Greece!!!


----------



## senne (May 17, 2003)

Longhorn

 

Ohwell.... It only comes out in 2005, until that time we get 3 more Mac OS X versions. We are the future!


----------



## fryke (May 17, 2003)

Erhm... 'no' would be a simple answer to the thread... What do you mean by 'copy'? It doesn't...


----------



## dlloyd (May 17, 2003)

It doesn't; it does much _much_ more than OS X does. I'm not sure if I like it or not, it is a cool idea but I might be too much for both me and my processor


----------



## drustar (May 17, 2003)

after seeing those three video clips, i don't see the usability on those features. that's too damn weird. let alone i want windows, and for my windows to be doing that?

if you don't know what i'm talking about, i guess you have to go check out the link from the first post.


----------



## kanecorp (May 17, 2003)

Yea whats the point of doing that stuff!?!


----------



## wtmcgee (May 17, 2003)

i don't really think it's 'copying', it's just MS is also trying to give their GUI more of a ... 'gee whiz' factor.  they're trying to give their OS as much fanfare for it's looks as OS X has for apple.

at this point it's like comparing apples and oranges though. 

longhorn isn't due out till 2005, and that means that OS X.? isn't even a thought yet either.  how can you compare who's copying who?


----------



## tsizKEIK (May 17, 2003)

oh. thats impressive. how strange...

anyways. this thing is at least 2 years away. 2 years ago Mac OS X was very different. and look how much it has changed (and panther is a few steps away)

the horn-thing final version could be more impressive, or ...worse!!! wait and see. im sure the presentation will be interesting; like the one with Windows 98 and the blue screen . hahahah. 

for now. read this


----------



## senne (May 17, 2003)

I don't mean the UI, i mean the graphic shel
They're going to use a new Graphic "Shell": DirectX "Tier 2" , which you can compare to OpenGL (Quartz en Quartz Extreme) that MacOSX uses.

In the video they're showing what it can do, but of course they're not going to use for turnign windows in circles and etc...

More info (in dutch): http://www.macosx.nl/


----------



## wtmcgee (May 17, 2003)

even that isn't that much of a ripoff - it makes sense to pass of some of the rendering gruntwork off to the GPU....  i think it was just a matter of time before every major OS did that - as cheap as good video cards are now, and as good as they are.... why not pass off some of the work to it?


----------



## kendall (May 17, 2003)

the wavy windows are kind of cool when being dragged around.  no more useful or useless than the genie effect in OS X.  it did however give the window a more tangible feel.

considering longhorn is 2 years away, we cant even begin to imagine what MS is going to do with their new 3D acccelerated desktop.  my guess is that it is not going to resemble the Windows that we know today.

people forget that Windows 2000 and XP have a solid core.  very stable and very efficent.  while security sucks and the GUI is only so-so, if MS can iron out those last few wrinkles, Longhorn could be one heck of an OS.


----------



## Vyper (May 17, 2003)

I'm sure Ocelot will 0wn Longhorn though


----------



## tsizKEIK (May 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kendall _
> *...
> people forget that Windows 2000 and XP have a solid core.  very stable and very efficent.  .. *



AMD (i think 1.7 Ghz). very new computer . with geforce 4 ti. 512 ram and Asus main board. anyway. my friend enters the windows 2000 cd. formats the hard disk and installs windows 2000 professional. after finishing all hardware softaware setups, presses start, shut down, restart my computer.  once he logs in he gets a blue screen. how stable and very efficient is that ? (and im sure that my friend was not an exception)


----------



## citizentony (May 17, 2003)

On my XP machine I have not once seen it freeze. It's a 2GhZ Intel, GeFroce 2 64mb, 100gb, 512mb ram. When I got my new 12 inch PowerBook. I pluged it in, turned it on and ran through the steps. It froze solid at the time setting phase. Restart, it kept freezing. I had to format a brand new out of the box Mac. Since then I have had no problems. Except the OS is a bit slow, i.e. Resizing a window it is notchy. I would not care if it werent such a new machine. But come on, design an OS that runs smoothly on the slowest machine you have or don't sell that machine.


----------



## Xeiliex (May 17, 2003)

i personally think xp is an ever slowing pile of rubbage in a shiny  blue wrapper. i have an AMD Athlon XP 1700+ box and an Intel P4 2.0 ghz. i had to spend a few hours on both cleaning the darned thing to make them run at reasonable pace. i agree freezing out the box is a very bad thing  but to say xp never freezes in an all    out lie. 


XP is the biggesst ram hog i have ever seen. in fact i was test somethig another user notice form another forum and this box froze right up. i lock up very often in PS7.  i often hear stories of now havingto reboot xp very often but some i havereboot at least once a day because something either slow performance down to almost unusable or in completely locks up.  and don't let me get started on the intel box

and speaking of "slowest computers" i tried to install xp on a properly configure celron 533 w/ 256 mb ram and the installer locked up.


----------



## j79 (May 17, 2003)

A coworker purchased an PC from Dell (yeah, yeah, it was a Dell..) -- Anyways, I came over to help him hook it up. We started it up, inputed some information, it asked us to restart, and it froze.

I also own a PC with XP Pro - After an app crashed, I restarted the machine. Everytime after that, I would get an error saying I did not install some hardware properly (never installed hardware to begin with) - then it would crash. A restart would bring the message again, but I could atleast get to the OS. I finally ran the "Restore system" to a prior date, and it worked fine after that.
Its currently sitting idle, now that the harddrive has crashed.. 

Anyways, that's just my PC stories.

I do have a Mac story: Powerbook G3 - DVD Drive crapped out (typical for Pismo owners) and the screen is starting to show signs of pink hue in the lower left corner (again typical) - otherwise, its running fine.


----------



## kendall (May 17, 2003)

jesus christ people, lets all tell our stories about how XP froze for our brothers, sisters, cousins, friends, aunt in tampa bay. 

insecurity at its finest.

"and this one time, at band camp, Windows...."


----------



## citizentony (May 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Xeiliex _
> * but to say xp never freezes in an all    out lie.  *



Wow, you sure got me. I often come on a message board and spread lies about my computer experiance. Yep, thats me.

I said I have never had a problem with XP. I edit Video, photos, text, play games, lie on message boards, et citera... When I use PhotoShop 7 it works fine. If you are freezing so much maybe you should reinstall. Besides if PS7 keeps freezing, that would be Adobe's problem not Windows. 

Windows 2000 froze sometimes but not often. I do recall 98 freezing alot, though. 

Next time you see fit to call someone a liar on the internet, Realize that the person on the other end probably thinks the same thing about you. Or in this case, if you are experiancing all of these freezes, I would venture to say you do not know how to properally set up a computer. But since I do not know you from Adam, I will refrain from that.


----------



## Jason (May 17, 2003)

its obvious that longhorn doesnt copy osx, at least IMHO, wow its evolutionizing the same way the mac os has by passing some of the graphics off to the gpu... i dont see what the huge issue is?

if they dont do this they are "behind, running on dos and stupid" if they do do this they are "copy cats, stealers and stupid"

there is no need for this thread here, so once again since this has turned into an "i hate windows" opinion thread it is going there...


----------



## citizentony (May 17, 2003)

I would venture to say that each system has it's short comeings, Or there would be no need for future upgrades. I like both XP and OS X. I prefer OS X because it is nicer looking. But some things in it drive me nuts. Same with XP, a solid OS but still needs lots of work. Bashing one or the other is useless. I use both on a daily basis, and would not call either one better than the other.


----------



## Xeiliex (May 17, 2003)

1.) I apoligize for the random attacks but after having to leave the mac crowd circa system 8 i have had a seen hetic experiences with  the microsoft camp. i have not had a truly enjoyable user experience since red hat 7.2 or a fresh win98 install.  after a while windows 98  did turn into a smoldering heap.  more or less when i see somebody saying any MS product is completely stable i draw my guns.

2.) if win xp has not froze yet it is just a matter of time. it is very balenced to keep the system completly stable. I am not bidding you evil but if can keep a stable xp you are a miracle worker. win 2k on the other hand is very stable but even that goes down 

3.) SPAM, pop ups and unders.it may be our isp ot pre-filtering content or an firewall that is not doing its job but  but even with pop u pblocking software, we get hammered and the is just one the factors that just ruins my exerprience. i am hoping for better when i go back to macs.  mozilla helped alot by the way. 


now as for longhorn:

it has some very interesting features but in my opinion it is the ugliest OS i have ever seen.  OS X has the smoothess look system out and if MS insist on copying anything at all they should at least design a visual appeling style. even xp's luna is taxing on the eyes after a while.  OS X  needs to be simply faster. if you could balance the faster XP with the power and visually apeearace of OS X we would have something to marvel at .  that is what might just happen and we will see in 2005. if is as good as they it will  be the  will renouce my ms disliking ways and follow suit. as long palladium does not get out of hand.  I think it needs a universal panel where i won't have to search around to turn off the annoying verbage that comes in the form of  yellow pop up bubbles.  


i believe people are believing ms is stealing form the under dog when it comes down to the OS using the gpu  part.


----------



## Jason (May 18, 2003)

just a thought... 

could it be possibly that MS has less room to "experiment" with new ideas for their operating systems since quite frankly the world runs on them? i dunno just an idea...

anyways, just try to keep the attacks and negative vibes on the low down guys, yer gonna ruin the good karma


----------



## hulkaros (May 18, 2003)

They just borrowed some stuff... Come on! You got to be kidding, right? Thank God that people who know more about computers than some people around here believe otherwise... And guess what? We call those people pros  Thank God that they know more...

Here is one...
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/12/technology/12SOFT.html
You may need free registration but anyways here is a piece:
"You don't have to look too far to see that this is almost a direct copy of Quartz," said Philip W. Schiller, Apple's vice president of marketing, referring to the Macintosh software that controls the computer's display. 
Microsoft executives declined to take the bait. "We only showed glimpses of the future of Longhorn," said a Microsoft spokesman. "Wait until the fall when we'll go into more detail at the Professional Developers Conference."

Explanation(!?) of the above: "Hey, maybe LongHorn IS a copy from OS X.2 for now but until then it won't be a copy because we will copy OS X.5" 

Here is another:
http://www.microsoft-watch.com/article2/0,4248,1090247,00.asp
A piece from there:
"That sounds like a bunch of nice improvements [for LongHorn]. But until Microsoft lets Longhorn out of the corral, Panther will rule the desktop OS jungle."

Another:
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1090440,00.asp
Which is actually another link for the previous one...

Here too:
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1074306,00.asp
Piece is here:
"Editor's Note: after this story was originally published, ET forum contributor "Cafemomo" mentioned Apple has being up and running with their Quartz Compositor engine in OS X, which is now hardware accelerated as Quartz Extreme in Mac OS X 10.2 (Jaguar), and that MS is once again playing catch-up and acting as if it's new stuff."

One final thing from here:
http://www.macosx.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32231&perpage=15&pagenumber=4
And for those who got bored here it is the piece:
"HULKAROS: After watching some Longhorn videos...
...I concluded to that... M$ cannot do anything without Apple "experimenting" first!
The effects that they used on those demos were nice but they were screaming OS X that it was to difficult for me not to post here the following...
I have 2 small 320 sized videos running TRANSPARENT above one running 480 sized video doubled in size, while one other 480 video was running minimized while I had other apps like Safari loading web pages, Mail, et al all TRANSPARENT as well... All at the same time of having a DVD playing TOO maximum size TRANSPARENT behind all these...
Now, before anyone will say how this and that I will simply say that I have WindowShade X installed, 512 of RAM and a TiBook of only a 1000MHz...
Anyways, take a look and if you will see those tech demos for LongHorn next time don't despair... OS X rules right here, right now...
NOTE
--------
Because I could not grab the screen while the DVD was running I closed the DVD player but believe me it runs more than fine... The following is the grabbed picture:
http://www.macosx.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=215986 "

And because the above can go on and on I will sum it up by saying the following:
Wintel with Athens PC and LongHorn CLEARLY 100% and maybe for the first time, showed to us that Apple ALL those years did the right thing and continues to do so: Software AND hardware combination, ease of use, looks, etc ARE needed for the "right" computer experience  wither some Wintel people care to accept it or not...

*Jason posted:
 could it be possibly that MS has less room to "experiment" with new ideas for their operating systems since quite frankly the world runs on them? i dunno just an idea...
anyways, just try to keep the attacks and negative vibes on the low down guys, yer gonna ruin the good karma *

No, Jason! Wintel doesn't have less room to experiment... Wintel has less guts even to try experiments... They just play it safe! Even with tones of money, employees AND consumers... If we should have someone to experiment this should be the Wintel side and not others... Damn even the underpaid (if at all) Linux community experiments a LOT MORE with all those Linux distros as well as other OSes companies and/or communities like http://www.yellowtab.com/ , http://os.amiga.com/ , http://www-3.ibm.com/software/os/warp/ , et al (SOOOOO many to post here). But what really makes me  is that we have people here and in other forums as well, thinking that Wintel is the end all be all computer offerings... Thank God (no, not Jobs or Gates) that this is far from the truth (actually this belongs in the realm of Science Fiction  )...

And, Jason? I hope that I didn't ruin the good karma


----------



## tsizKEIK (May 18, 2003)

microsoft doesnt have any (good) ideas (of their own) to experiment on. the only idea they had was that iLOO thing, and once again theyve made a fool out of themselves by reversing their announcements 3 times within a month.


----------



## Jason (May 18, 2003)

while i agree with the fact that ms is using the idea of a gpu accelerated os after apple, i still dont get what is horribly wrong with that.... are they not supposed to advance? and how is that ms doesnt not have room to experiment? they run much of the world, they cant pull what apple did with osx, (meaning introduce a new os that is basically not compatible with anything at all until new stuff is made for it) it just CANT happen on that scale.

am i saying MS would have thought of the idea if they could experiment more? no. But they sure as hell would have done it sooner than this. MS doesnt make huge changes to its OS because, partially, they dont have the balls, and partially because they cant afford to do that to its customers. IMHO them "not having the balls" is a smart choice. If they make a radically different OS then they could possibly conjure up quite a bit of confusion and dislike among the "normal peoples" crowd (meaning those who dont want to get into all the technicalities of a computer).

like i said before, no matter what MS would have done, whether it be not doing this, doing this now, or hell even doing this before, alot of people around here would have just passed judgement on it being stupid without even looking at the situation. but hey MS and bill gates are such idiots, its a wonder how theyve been such a success


----------



## tsizKEIK (May 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Jason _
> *..
> they cant pull what apple did with osx, (meaning introduce a new os that is basically not compatible with anything at all until new stuff is made for it)
> ...
> *



wasnt classic and carbon used for such reasons ?


----------



## cellfish (May 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by tsizKEIK _
> *AMD (i think 1.7 Ghz). very new computer . with geforce 4 ti. 512 ram and Asus main board. anyway. my friend enters the windows 2000 cd. formats the hard disk and installs windows 2000 professional. after finishing all hardware softaware setups, presses start, shut down, restart my computer.  once he logs in he gets a blue screen. how stable and very efficient is that ? (and im sure that my friend was not an exception) *



Oh my god, what a coincidence. I have an Athlon XP 2200 with 512 megs ram and an ATI Radeon 9000 Pro and the Windows XP installation not only detects all of my hardware, it's also stable and doesn't crash. I must be the ONLY PC USER IN THE WORLD THAT HAS NO PROBLEMS RIGHT?

By your statement, only PC users WITHOUT problems are exceptions when that isn't true.


----------



## cellfish (May 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Xeiliex _
> *i personally think xp is an ever slowing pile of rubbage in a shiny  blue wrapper. i have an AMD Athlon XP 1700+ box and an Intel P4 2.0 ghz. i had to spend a few hours on both cleaning the darned thing to make them run at reasonable pace. i agree freezing out the box is a very bad thing  but to say xp never freezes in an all    out lie.
> 
> 
> ...



WINDOWS XP IS A RAM HOG? Did you ever even USE OS X? OS X is not content with 128, put in 384 it's not content. Try 512 it's still not happy. Try 768, it's still not enough. Put in two gigs and finally, it alls seems to work right.

With 256 megs ram, my Athlon was a speed demon. Put in 768, and it got MUCH faster. However, the point remains that at 256 it was damn fast. Nobody can claim that with OS X. OS X users start cheering the second their system DOESN'T freeze when transferring files, Windows users EXPECT that and get pissed off if it DOES freeze.

It's two different worlds baby, Windows is winning.

Andre


----------



## hulkaros (May 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Jason _
> *while i agree with the fact that ms is using the idea of a gpu accelerated os after apple, i still dont get what is horribly wrong with that.... are they not supposed to advance? and how is that ms doesnt not have room to experiment? they run much of the world, they cant pull what apple did with osx, (meaning introduce a new os that is basically not compatible with anything at all until new stuff is made for it) it just CANT happen on that scale.
> 
> am i saying MS would have thought of the idea if they could experiment more? no. But they sure as hell would have done it sooner than this. MS doesnt make huge changes to its OS because, partially, they dont have the balls, and partially because they cant afford to do that to its customers. IMHO them "not having the balls" is a smart choice. If they make a radically different OS then they could possibly conjure up quite a bit of confusion and dislike among the "normal peoples" crowd (meaning those who dont want to get into all the technicalities of a computer).
> ...



No one around here called seriously the M$ (and Wintel in general) stupid... We just called them Dark Side and Apple wannabies  

Seriously though, the problem with Wintel is that they don't pay their respects... Especially, this guy Bill Gates, saying that Apple only innovates in colors? Damn! They must be some amazingly original colors in order for them to try to immitate them THAT hard! 

Oh, and there is nothing wrong having them incorporating 3d stuff in their GUI... If anything they give me another reasons to sell more Macs:

Customer:
- I really liked those sweet effects of LongHorn and I would like to buy a Wintel which will be able to handle all those stuff when they will come out as well as the up and coming Doom 3 game...
Me:
- Then Mr/Mrs why not buy those sweet effects now and enjoy them ASAP instead of waiting for couple years?
Customer:
- What do you mean?
Me (Showing Genie, Scale, Suck, Minimize in Place, Dock Minimize, Transparencies, etc. effects):
- See this? That? What about this?

After 15 mins customer walks away with eMac 1GHz and with a HUGE smile in his/her face all while doing this  to customers at the Wintel shop 10 meters down the road...


----------



## Jason (May 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by tsizKEIK _
> *wasnt classic and carbon used for such reasons ? *



sorry but classic isnt a viable option for many users out there with "normal" amounts of ram, or businesses with software that doesnt work in classic (which are many at least on the graphics/photography etc side)


----------



## Jason (May 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by hulkaros _
> *Customer:
> - I really liked those sweet effects of LongHorn and I would like to buy a Wintel which will be able to handle all those stuff when they will come out as well as the up and coming Doom 3 game...
> Me:
> ...



yeah but, as much as you might hate to hear this, if someone wants doom 3 then they wont be looking into, or interested in a mac, especially an emac.

longhorn is from what ive seen a pretty big step for windows, true its built upon xp/2000, but its added the gpu acceleration, and a new file system (which i dont know the details of). these are big steps for an operating system which needs to work with just about everything out there... so its not end all of operating systems, and it obvious MS is taking some cues from Apple, but apple has done the same in the past, and this is normal business practice in any field you look at. one company makes an innovation, all competing companies see that and say "hey, it would be smart if we did something like that as well" if this didnt happen all we would have are monopolies all over the place, with no choices at all and very little innovation.

did gm thank mazda after mazda's rx8 styling influenced the design of the ssr? did sega thank nintendo for inventing the side scrolling game? compaq thank palm for innovating in the personal hand held computer field? 

you see something cool, you implement the idea into your own product, it is improved over your previous product and hopefully your competetors product. this is the life of business. competition, new ideas, innovation, and face it, the borrowing of ideas.

---

cell, im with you, i must be a rarity because my pc performed as consistantly as my mac... how odd... with crappy hardware no less...

--- 

long horn... looks cool, the video demos are obviously just to show the power, there are no functions of those effects (much like apple did with somethings and quartz). hopefully they implement it well. i like the look, but we'll see what happens down the road.


----------



## hulkaros (May 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Jason _
> *yeah but, as much as you might hate to hear this, if someone wants doom 3 then they wont be looking into, or interested in a mac, especially an emac.
> *



Of course I knew that and the customers knew that when they selected the eMacs 1GHz... But they felt like 10-15 fps with low res = No problem! What XBOX is for anyways?   

As for the other things I think that round and round we always go... In the end, Pros like Mr.Philip W. Schiller and Mr.Bill Gates know these things better, don't they?


----------



## tsizKEIK (May 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Jason _
> *
> cell, im with you, i must be a rarity because my pc performed as consistantly as my mac... how odd... with crappy hardware no less...
> *



well my brothers PC with WIndows 2000 professional doesnt perform that well. actually it freezes all the time. 
and 95% of my friends who have either windows XP or 2000 also have numerous of problems(eg incompatibilities) and crashes ALL the time. 
most of the PCs ive seen need a format every 3-4 months cause problems keep on showing up more frequently. 

i dont know, maybe Windows computers here in Greece have some sort of SARS virus and thats why they crash  
where do u guys live ? maybe i should give it a shot round ur neighbourhood


----------



## earther (May 18, 2003)

Hmm, if the PC folk are Catholic and the Apple folk Orthodox Jews, does that explain why NT stands for New Testament?

Also, is Longhorn named for the type of cow or for the cheese?


----------



## Perseus (May 18, 2003)

If it was cheese, they should have named it Stilton. 

-Perseus


----------



## powermac (May 19, 2003)

I installed WIN XP, on my old IBM Aptiva, 475 AMD processor. SLOW, but it is installed. Yah, the interface is faster, but appears to me it is "dumbed down", compared to X. It is certainly a usable OS for anyone. Many of us will get bored quickly without a UNIX Terminal.


----------



## boneske (May 19, 2003)

Longhorn is named for a mountain up in Wastington.  But with the looney tune UI that they decided to put on it, I would say it was named after cheese, cause it looks very cheesy


----------



## Jason (May 23, 2003)

it is a fact you have to customize alot of things (but i like being able to customize out of the box) on windows xp to make it usable for anyone remotely advanced

and hulk... most definately, this is why we arent rich


----------



## binaryDigit (May 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by tsizKEIK _
> *well my brothers PC with WIndows 2000 professional doesnt perform that well. actually it freezes all the time.
> and 95% of my friends who have either windows XP or 2000 also have numerous of problems(eg incompatibilities) and crashes ALL the time.
> most of the PCs ive seen need a format every 3-4 months cause problems keep on showing up more frequently.
> ...



That may be true.  Formating every 3-4 months, actually it does sound a lot like your friends are getting nailed by virus'?  There are several of us here on this board that use Win2K and/or XP everyday (and are surrounded by people who do like wise) that have been churning for months/years without the level of problems that you and your friends have experienced.  I haven't worked for a company that would stand for having to format every single one of their computers once a quarter to take care of those kinds of problems.  Maybe this is an issue of home use vs corp use?  Where in the corp the hardware configs tend to be much more standardized and people are generally discouraged from tinkering?

My personal experience is that OSX will hang/flake out on me about once or twice a week.  By flaking out I mean the entire system will slow to a crawl and the only way out is to shut the system down (pull the plug).  Now I do do some mucking about with wireless and I'm sure at least a few of my problems are related to that, but there are certainly times when I'm just working in Werd or browsing in Safari and things just seem to go weird.  Now my Win2K box (personal) is no paragon of virtue either, but it's certainly no worse.

I think someone summarized earlier that neither OS is perfect from a stability standpoint (or even from a usabillity standpoint).  OSX is a huge leap over OS9 and below.  But NT (and it's derivatives) are huge leaps over 95 (and it's derivitives).  Someone always knows somebody else who had a bad experience with whatever OS you choose.  Since there are significantly more Wintel users out there, you are going to hear significantly more complaints, no surprise here.

Oh and to the issue of why M$ doesn't "innovate" as much as Apple.  I think the answer is simple, they don't have to.  Apple has to innovate to keep it's market share up.  Apple is fighting the market more than it's fighting any competitor, innovation is crucial.  M$ doesn't have that concern (at least not nearly to the extent that Apple does).  Their focus is on controlling what they have, and innovation doesn't factor into that strategy as much as say DRM.  M$ is more than happy to let Apple pave the way, why wouldn't they?  Should they give props to Apple for originating ideas, well, thats open to interpretation.  Should BMW acknowledge Alpha Romeo for originating the idea for variable valve timing (or Honda for making it available for the masses)?

Another thing to consider is that corps don't care about innovation anyway.  Your average home user is wowed by iLife, but your average corp user doesn't give a flip.  They want a _reasonably_ stable OS with the apps they need (word processing, db, spreadsheet, presentation, email) and a way to administer these boxes as simply as possible.  Is your average IT guy going to choose an OS because it has hardware accelerated 3d icons, nope.  Remember, Apple can focus on home users and content providers, and provide innovations that appeal to those groups.  M$ is trying to woo the same group PLUS button down corps, server room IT guys, and pretty much everyone else, so the payoff of such "innovation" isn't the same for them.


----------



## kalantna (May 27, 2003)

> WINDOWS XP IS A RAM HOG? Did you ever even USE OS X? OS X is not content with 128, put in 384 it's not content. Try 512 it's still not happy. Try 768, it's still not enough. Put in two gigs and finally, it alls seems to work right.
> 
> With 256 megs ram, my Athlon was a speed demon. Put in 768, and it got MUCH faster. However, the point remains that at 256 it was damn fast. Nobody can claim that with OS X. OS X users start cheering the second their system DOESN'T freeze when transferring files, Windows users EXPECT that and get pissed off if it DOES freeze.
> 
> ...



I am shocked. Just shocked by these results! I mean imagine a 2.2 ghz machine is out performing a 600 mhz machine. That can't be possible. 

Cell, you post the same argument over and over again. If you want it to have any credibility you need to install XP on 600 mhz machine with 384 MB of RAM. 

Just my two cents.


----------

