# If this doesn't make your head turn, I don't know what will



## HyperLiteG4 (Oct 23, 2001)

Check this:

Matthew 24:6-14
_"And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come."_

Now, I don't want to cram this stuff down anyone's throats or anything. But isn't this amazing? This was said 2000 years ago by the Son of God, Jesus Christ! And it's talking about what is going on here and now in our world today.

I know some people can say, "well you Christians bring this stuff up everytime something happens" or whatever. But I have never been more serious in my whole life. This might be it people and if you are not a Christian during these times, I am truly sorry for you...I really am. You will be missing out on so much of what God in Heaven has in store for you. Just think about this won't you and ask the Lord about this. Right now it's a black or white decision, ask Jesus into your heart and be saved, or follow your own way and think that you can do whatever you want without Jesus in your life. It's your decision.

Anyways, feel free to email me or whatever if you have any questions. My email address is below. Take care and God Bless!


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## Siq (Oct 24, 2001)

O-Kaaaaayyyy


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## sithious (Oct 26, 2001)

huh? can i have some of whatever you've been taking, please? 

... don't get annoyed, i'm not flaming you, but that quote would just as easily apply to any number of events during the past ...
as the hitchhiker's guide says: DON'T PANIC!!

as yoda says: hard to see the future is. always in motion.

as marvin gaye said: war is not the answer, for only love can conquer hate.


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## apb3 (Oct 27, 2001)

When, since man first started living in groups, has that quote not applied?

I'm sorry but your quote of your god, "...hated by all nations for [m}y name's sake..." Are you saying that Osama hates us because of jesus. That may be what they want to use as  an excuse for their envy and murder but trust me, I've been there and fought these people; they hate us because they can't be us. That is a generalization and I'd be happy to list specifics with you privately.

Don't waste your sorrow on me for not sharing your beliefs. Think about those over there actually doing something to protect your right to say these things without fear of being killed or worse. Use your god to ask for some protection for them. I wonder what kind of response you would have received if you quoted that tripe to the thugs in the Taliban? You'd probably be treated better than a women would, but in the end, I don't think you'd like it.


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## Soapvox (Oct 29, 2001)

While  I am an Athiest I don't believe the poster  is deluded,  it  is just what he believes,  and   if   your  beliefs  lead  you  to do  good then  it  can't be all that  bad.

That said, everyone must  look  at  the bible  and all religions as  something  created  and written by men, even  if   it is true  that it is divinely inspired, it  has  been translated and retranslated over  the years, and there were many years where the only people  who could read and write  were  clerics,  so  you know they changed things for thier   benefit (Give  unto Caesar what  is his is a good  example).  So  what I  am  trying  to  say is  people  should always question things, you may not  get  the answer  you  want but it  keeps our  religious leaders honest.    That passage  is  general  just like a lot  of nostradamus'  predictions,  so  you could  apply that   to  a  lot of  scenarios and can be manipulated  in many ways.  Remeber Jesus was a  man, if you  think he  was  the son  of  god then that   is   fine, but  he   was  a  man, just like buddah,  mohammad and  myself.  His teachings were good, and  I w ish   a lot of people (Like  the  US) would  follow his peaceful  teachings and  learn  to forgive  and  take care  of  thier   families,  but  for a christian nation, we don't act very  christian, so   to me the  only  thing  worse  than a religous person  is a  false  religious  person.  (please excuse my  spelling)


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## apb3 (Oct 29, 2001)

My bad. I guess deluded was a bit harsh. Sorry. I've just been seeing all this crap on the net about prophesies that said the Sept. 11 event was going to happen (and that some thing or other was predicted anytimne something major happened in the past) that I was a bit fed up.

Some people really believe this stuff and I feel it is important to show people that this stuff is just not true, or at least can apply to anything. At best they were general warnings to make people behave. At their worst, they are outright frauds and hoaxes. I don't think we should sit by and let people be fooled by any of that. Faith as it relates to religion is different - fine believe what you want. I'm agnostic. But don't use those religions to spread falsehoods or rubbish.

I know it's a losing battle. Look at the tabloids and how well they sell. But, we gotta start somewhere.


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## Soapvox (Oct 29, 2001)

People are sheep and won't listen to reason if we call names and such,  apb3,  you  are headed in the right direction in my opinion, but we need  to teach  and if  we  can show the er of thier ways and falsehoods with  out attacking our point becomes more valid.   Ask  a "believer" why  I am condemmed and all he can say is because the bible says so,  but again i bring up my point  of  translations and written  by man and all  they can  say  is  because the  bible says  so, then  I  ask about  all  the indians that never heard of Jesus  and what happened to  them and  they get stuck.   The bible  teaches  many  good  things,  just  like  confucious  taught  (as a matter of fact cofucious taught many  of  jesus'  teaching before  jesus was around) but  so do many other books,  people open your  eyes and question everything!


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## kenny (Oct 29, 2001)

Heh... My point about the authority of the bible has been a bit simpler. The conversation goes something like this:

Me: What do mean, I'm going to hell?
Them: It says so right here in the Bible.
Me: So? What makes what it says an authority?
Them: Well, it _is_ the word of God.
Me: And how do you know that?
Them: Because the Bible says so.
Me: So a book, written by men...
Them: ...inspired by God.
Me: If you say so...
Them: Not me, the Bible.
Me: Right. So, a book, written by men, inspired by god, is the word of god because it says so. And that makes it an authority to say I'm going to hell?
Them: (with all seriousness) Yes.

Welcome, my freinds, to circular reasoning.


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## Click (Oct 29, 2001)

Amen Kenny.
You Can´t reson with somebody that belives in the bible. 
They just don´t get logic


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## Soapvox (Oct 29, 2001)

You can  reason with them, but you need patience and persistence.  They need to now of the truth  and once a bit of the truth  sinks in it will grow and eventually they will come around to question the beliefs, it just takes time.


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## skenagle (Oct 29, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Click _
> *Amen Kenny.
> You Can´t reson with somebody that belives in the bible.
> They just don´t get logic *



are you for real? you think that someone who believes in the bible is not logical? or cannot get logic?

I feel sorry for you Click...

am I to believe you are one of those people who evangelizes your belief that anyone who believes in the bible is not open minded... yet you are so closed that you can't even dissasociate some bible believers and their innability to grasp logical arguments and believers in anything else and their ability to grasp logic?

I mean get real.... you think you are so logical because mabye perhaps you dislike the bible or some standard religious philosophies that dont tickle your ears.. and you think that by doing this you are acheiving an open mind because you are not putting yourself in this "religious box" ...

You have just become  (through your foolish and impractical prejudgements) as simple minded as those whom you claim to judge.


I feel sorry for you and hope you one day realize that in your quest to break down that which you dont know, you are actually breaking down yourself. You have become your own judge.


as far as the bible goes, there are ways to misinterpret passages.. i believe that the origination of this post was indeed a piece of  prophetic discussion about this time, but was in no way specifically signifying that this time is indeed the "wars and rumors of wars" spoken about in the above passage. I do believe in the bible, but this passage is out of context.

I dont mean to flame, i just want you all to understand that a bible believer is not a dead headed fool.  I understand that most people that read the bible make insane claims of pre apocalyptic prophecy... i also understand that there are many thousands of religious people (yes even those who say they are no  religion and atheist are a religion  to them selves) who have nothing to do with the bible and make foolish statements all day based on God (or what their definition of that supreme entity is)


stupidity is not only a christian possibility... as we can all see above, "Click" has proven to us that you can be conpletely the opposite way around and still say stupid things


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## twyg (Oct 29, 2001)

There will always be both sides of the field of religion. I won't even go into what happens when I bring up the discussion of pagans to a christian. Mind you not a christan like Hyperlite, who is someone who can be "reasoned" with... (Which sounds derogatory, but was and is not meant to be by me.)

It's all about what makes you feel comfortable. No matter what you believe in whether it's christianity, paganism, buddism, tasoism or islam (and everything else) people forget that the whole point is to let other people know that, and how the human race needs to get along with one another in order to exist. If you look at the bible, and the teachings of the prophet Jesus (or Mohammed) it's all about treating people like you would want to be treated yourself. 

Have a healthy respect for your brothers and sisters. 

What I feel I've described is the core of spirituality, at least in my perspective. Where things take a deadly turn is when religion interferes with sprituality. When someone takes the Koran and spins it around to make it sound like the people from the east are coming to rape our women and pillage our villages, and someone is so weak a leader that they lean solely on their religion to push people into foolish wars... Think about that... One person has the power to change words that were meant to heal, and help and turn them into words of hate, and destruction. Are you to be lead by that? We laugh, and say "HA! that's scary that these people will strap a bomb on themselves and blow up a building... pshht... fanatical freaks." But what happens when you think about the Irish and the English? "Oh, but that's different." No it isn't. The core issue started over a bullsh*t religious difference...

It's not the Bible or the Koran, or a witches book of shadows that makes us do the things we do, it's our interpretation of words that makes us do them... I agree stongly with soapvox... I feel it's a book that's been translated one too many times. That goes for the bible, the Koran, and many different variations on the same message...

For the record I will not ostrasize someone for their beliefs. To me no matter what you believe you are my brother or sister. I may strongly dislike your belief structure, but that has no bearing on whether or not you're a nice/bad person!

And folks, flaming is bound to happen on a discussion like this, I don't mean this to be offensive, and I do realize that my opinion is flying out like a jack-in-the-box... 

Thanks for hearing my rant


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## Soapvox (Oct 29, 2001)

Very well said!


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## apb3 (Oct 29, 2001)

I agree. well said.

One point though. The Irish/English troubles are not the same. they are different. 

Yes Yes, their is a major religious aspect to the issue and to the dividing lines between factions, but there are also other major reasons behind these problems. History, politics, racism, colonialism, independence, workers' rights, petty thuggery,  ill thought-out and poorly applied socio-economic policies and on and on ALL are MAJOR reasons behind the troubles. I see the religious aspect as the mollifying force that binds the factions together due to common beliefs and (mostly) shared values, cultures, histories, etc. 

Remove religion and you'd still have had the problems we've seen. Maybe just different groupings of individuals... BUT, let's hope it's coming to an end soon. the IRA have turned in their arms ( a brave and, some say foolish, others say dishonest, move - but a move nonetheless). Assuming the IRA intentions to be honorable, now let's see if the opposition forces honor their commitments and promises or repeat their past brutalities.

Enough off-topic chatter.

I went to catholic school for 8 years and was beat almost daily for raising some of the questions raised in this thread as well as others. I would read my father's science books and magazines, watch PBS and go to museums, etc. and raise my hand when the nuns would tell us something like the Earth was made in 6 days and god rested on the seventh. I, even at an early age could see the impossible nature of this claim. I never got to explain my view - the beatings started way before I could even try to make my case - which would have been something like: 

First of all I think these are stories passed down throughout the ages to explain things our ancestors didn't understand and/or to teach reverence for nature and respect for the world and its wonders/dangers. 

Secondly modern science disproves all of these claims through the scientific method - which I never see mentioned in our Bible class. Faith, you say? Well OK, you can believe whatever you want but do you think a god would want to keep you stupid and misinformed? Couldn't science be a gift from your god so that we can better ourselves? You do say we're made in his image. So, shouldn't we aspire to be the perfect image of god, wouldn't he want us to do that? Science, research, study, knowledge in general all help us to better ourselves and our surroundings (weren't we commanded to protect all the living things and all the world(s) given to us by god?).

That's probably all I would have had to say at that age. I hope I'd be more eloquent and persuasive nowadays.

This continued until 7th Grade at Our Lady of Grace School. A lay teacher (one of only two in our school) took me aside and, while I expected a beating, she asked me to please not bring up those things in class. That they were disruptive and would never change anyone's mind that was already set in these beliefs. I disagreed, being a kid I knew I could do anything. I'd take the beating and they'd give in. Someday, they'd see I was right.

She made me stay after school. I thought it was punishment. After about 5 minutes a priest whom I had never seen before (turns out he was a new priest for our school and church - starting the nest week, teaching science and coaching fencing, which I love and I was a member of the team) walks in. Now, I didn't know who he was, like I said, so I expected the mother of all beatings or some other torture (like making me brace my back against the wall, bend my legs at 90 degrees and hold that position until he said I could stand. Fall, which you always do, and you get a beating and start over -  still have strong legs; and gnarled knuckles). 

But this guy sat down in a desk next to me. I noticed he had jeans on! "Christ-on-a-stick," I thought. A priest in jeans?! And he's smiling at me. Anyway, he starts talking to me (nothing perverted went on - he turned out to be a good guy and actually spoke at my Father's funeral a few years back) and says he's heard about me. He talks to me like a real guy. Treats me like I have a brain in my head. I always scored top of my class in those Iowa Basics tests and in grades except conduct, but none of those people ever respected my point of view or would even listen. He did. He shared many of my views on the Bible as a social code of conduct guide. He believed in god (I was agnostic even then although i didn't know the word) but in a god I could respect. Or maybe it was his faith in that god I respected. I know I respected him (aside from the respect his ass-kicking he'd dole out in fencing earned him).


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## apb3 (Oct 29, 2001)

He graduated from Harvard and had a PhD from MIT in electrical engineering (it was what computer geeks majored in back then, no CS degrees I guess). One day he just knew he was supposed to be a priest. He went to seminary and ended up in that desk nest to me.

I stopped causing all the trouble and making the nuns crazy. I had a place I could go to vent my frustration, rail against the nuns and their closed minds, talk about my Atari 400 and new Apple - of which my dad thought the company, "may have something here." (thanks dad for buying the stock and the other tech stuff - it helped my inheritance a lot!).

Anyway, I don't think I need to explain the point of this story from my childhood...


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## Matrix Agent (Oct 29, 2001)

Now, I might start off by saying that i am sitting on the fence as far as religion goes. I have an interesting view from here.....

On one hand I see the hardcore religious fans, that can quote scripture to you on the spot. At every twist and turn of your life, they point out your faults, and they remind you that Jesus is waiting to help. In many ways, they are intrusive into other people business. I respect their efforts at trying to convert people, but at a certain point, it becomes less respectful and more rude. If you dismiss them they will accuse you of being unfaithful to God. Asking them to put logic to their doctirine only inflames them, because they feel that it is proper to accept the the teachings of Jesus at face value, and that trying to apply logic is futile.

On the other side are the hardcore athiests, that can quote to you 6 problems with the bible on the spot. At every twist and turn of your life, they point out your religious faults, and they remind you that true freedom can be achieved by leaving religion behind. Again, I respect their their efforts at trying to convert people, but at a certain point, it becomes less respectful and more rude. If you dismiss them, they will accuse you of being a moron who cannot accept the truth. Asking them why they dont believe in God only inflames them, because they consider it an insult to even think of believing in God.

As you can see, neither side is much different than the other. In fact they are identical except for their doctrines. They both push them onto others, and they both try and support them with their own brand of logic.

I can, in some ways, relate to pushing ideas upon others. Whenever a computer crashes, or a person asks me about buying a computer, I say,"Buy an Apple." The difference between this logic and religious/athiest logic is that I can back this up in many ways, not just with a bible, or with faults in the bible.

I think that we all need to cut hyperg4 a break. He's obviously not a religious extremist. He even says that he's not pushing it. He's just putting it all out there, and letting us do with it what we will. 

I think anyone who has an arguement that isn't rude and can be logically supported should have an open ear. He shouldn't be slammed for them simple reasonn that he believes in a God.


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## kilowatt (Oct 29, 2001)

Just remember, yall, the Bible says we will not know when the end is near. It will be completely unexpected. (Its in Rev. somewhere).

Matrix Agent,
	I have to agree with you about people who just don't know when to let you decide for yourselves. 
	However, your example about the "Buy an Apple" isn't completely analogus. I have my life to back up my 'religious claims'. I cannot tell you how many times I have seen God at work in my life and in others. 
	Not that I'd expect examples in my life to change someone else's mind, but they are reasons I have. If all there was to religion was in a book... well, I'd worry about the people who translated it. 
	But take why you should use a mac instead of a winblows pc. Not just because of protected memory, microkernel-architecture, and unix-level security. But also because "I've never seen a blue screen of death on a mac" and "We don't do windows". 
	All I'm trying to say here is that there is more to it than the facts. And inorder to truely believe, I believe you have to step outside the box. Open yourself to other posabilities.

For you, its my two cents. For me, its a buck ;-)


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## Matrix Agent (Oct 29, 2001)

Soapvox:

Religion has a place in my life because everything cannot be backed up with logic. Religion tries to make logic out of the illogical. This is why I am partially religious. 

On one hand I say, the idea that there is a God is outlandish.

On the other hand I say, if there's no God: Why?

Why this?
Why that?
Why anything?

Believe it or not, we talk about this a lot in my anatonmy and physiology class. Steve Hawking also has some interesting things to say.

While i know my example with macs wasn't great, i was only trying to prove that i know i am not innocent, and that i have the same faults as many of the people i complain about.

¿Religion?


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