# Architecture Leap for PowerPC



## Vard (Sep 4, 2003)

Anyone else think this is either wrong or just plain amazing?

Check it out

http://macosxrumors.com/

Read the Sept 4th entry.

Later,
Eddie


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## tsizKEIK (Sep 4, 2003)

My favourite parts of the articles



> The fact is that a 0.06um based PowerPC 970 will have a lot of advantages: first of all, it will be really cooler than the current PowerPC 970, secondly it will by the way be able to reach even higher clock speeds, and finally, it will be cheaper to produce.





> ut the fact IBM wants to jump to 0.06um process for the production of it's future PowerPC processors is very good news for Apple, as it certainly means the company will be technically and financially able to go 100% G5 for all its Macs, including lap-tops and cunsomer Macs within a year.


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## malexgreen (Sep 4, 2003)

Like Whoa! If IBM can churn out 60nm PPC's, that would be something very special indeed. But I doubt that it will happen. I'm wondering if the 'reliable source' is a someone working in the fab or just some IBMer in an ivory tower somewhere.

This will not necessarily be a cost improvement, because I can imagine yields for 60nm SOI will be very low. But this will allow them to crank up the clock speed.  I don't know a whole lot about SOI technology, but CMOS leakage is an issue as you shrink the geometries of the transistor, so a 60nm PPC970 at 3GHz may not necessarily be ideal for notebooks. But they may have done something special with the design to reduce leakage, which if they are smart they would do.

I don't see this an an architectural improvement, per se, as the PPC 970 arch hasn't changed. Just a process technology improvement.


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## Captain Code (Sep 4, 2003)

Accoding to this pdf  the PPC970 is at 130nm right now.  If IBM went to 60nm in less than a year that would be a breakthough.  I don't really think that would be possible.  That would be amazing if they could pull that off, but from what I've read from other companies(AMD, Intel), they are looking at going to 80nm in the next year or so I think.


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## Go3iverson (Sep 4, 2003)

If these babies run cooler...

Could we possibly see the PBG5 this year?

Consider this, we're almost at 1 year from the last refresh of the 15" PB.  Obviously this is not a technology issue, as they have created 12" and 17" laptop boards with FireWire 800, AirPort Extreme, etc.

Lets be honest, would anyone jump for joy at a 1.25GHz PBG4 anymore?  I mean, I LOVE my 1GHz PowerBook, but it just seems so lack luster knowing that the G5 blows it away.  Would you spend $2500.00 on that?

Even at 1.5GHz G4, it'd be a rough sale....

Lets say the new fabrication isn't ready, could they take a 1.6GHz G5 and underclock it down to 1.45GHz and produce the laptop?  

Shouldn't we be seeing a 2.5GHz G5 around January/February to be on track for the 3GHz in one year promise?

Consider this as well...

Lets say IBM gets the new fabrication going and the chips will be ready in mid/late January...How perfect would it be for Steve to announce it in early/mid December to get those holiday dollars?  Possibly offering a special promotional holiday pack to give as a gift that lets the recipient know their new laptop is on the way?

Also consider, why don't I have a job at Apple yet?!  lol


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## Go3iverson (Sep 4, 2003)

I've got it!

Season's Greetings from Apple Computer

Want the ultimate gift for the Apple user in your life, but don't want to wait until January to join in the joy of the season?

Pre-order a new PowerMac G5 or PowerBook G5 and pick your way to say happy holidays!

1.  At no additional cost, we'll send your Mac recipient a limited edition, glossy poster of their new Apple, as well as a greeting card from Apple to let them know their fun has only begun!  (limited to on hand quantities)

2.  For $49.95 we'll send you the poster and card, but include a PowerMac G5 T-Shirt as well as a full copy of Mac OS X Panther, so you can get started in using the next generation of the world's strongest operating system.

3.  Purchased a new laptop and don't like T-Shirts?  For $69.99, we'll send you the poster, the card, Panther and a new case built especially for your laptop!

4.  Ok, you really wanted the T-Shirt and the case?  For just $79.99, you'll get both!

5.  Really love your Apple?  For $159.99 get the poster, card, T-Shirt and an iSight!  (limited to first xxxxxx orders).


Great deal for the iSight.  I figure if they can do $129 for edu pricing, they can do $10 over retail to include a shirt, etc.

What do you all think?


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## Quicksilver (Sep 4, 2003)

Not only would this be good for apple but it'll also be very good for IBM and its brand 

if IBM pulled such a stunt off then mabey yea they save alot of cash in not producing 90 or 80nm processors.

why not just skip to somthing that's gonna come later anyway?


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## Arden (Sep 4, 2003)

Some of you are forgetting that Apple typically waits until _after_ the holiday season for MWSF to announce their new products.  It could be called a bad move, but that's when the expo is.

I think, if 60 nm transistors will help IBM sell more chips, and make the G5 that much more attractive, they should go for it by all means.


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## Go3iverson (Sep 5, 2003)

I'm well aware of it, but it boils down to this...

Not to be ego-centric about America, but with the economy shaky at best here, the job market very slow and the price of Apple's machines, I feel getting something on order before all the money is spent on holiday shopping would be huge.

We caught the attention of the world with the G5, now it's time to bring in the numbers and start adding more %'s.


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## fryke (Sep 5, 2003)

Dreamin'... Sure, we'll see the PowerPC 970 become faster and maybe - just maybe! - reach a 90nm process one day (most other sites than macosxrumors mention IBM preparing 90nm processing for the chip _after_ the 970, which will stay at 130nm for 2004), but that is 'future talk' without proof.

If the PowerBooks go G5 anytime soon (and that means sometime 2004, not 2003!), they will have to build the 'book around the chip right now. Sadly.


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## Go3iverson (Sep 5, 2003)

2004 release could be accomplished by a late 2003 announcement.

Seriously, would you pay upwards of $2500-$3500 USD for a 1.33GHz G4 based laptop knowing how far superior the G5 is?

Unless Apple is prepared to introduce dual G4 laptops, I'd think the next batch might just fail.


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## fryke (Sep 5, 2003)

Well, the G5 isn't THAT superior. Also, for portables there are other measurements. I don't want a fast portable that only has 1 hour of battery power, for example. The G3 and G4 is a 'good' notebook processor, concerning heat and power, the G5 - as of now - is not.

Btw.: MacBidouille has new info about a 65nm process for the G5. They're mentioning a 6-9 month time frame for production start (which probably means the chips can't be used in Macs for the next 10-12 months). This sounds much more reasonable. They also say that the source is _not_ the same one.


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## Captain Code (Sep 5, 2003)

Page 14 of that PDF above says that PPC970 dissipates 42W of power at 1.8GHz(which could mean Apple overclocked it, or the PDF is a bit old).

How much power do the G4 and G3 chips dissipate?


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## fryke (Sep 5, 2003)

About the PowerPC 750FX (used in iBooks): "The 750FX consumes only 3.6W (typical) at 800MHz, making it much more power-efficient than other microprocessors with comparable performance."

About the PowerPC 7455A (G4): At 1.25 GHz, the processor has a max power dissipation of ~25W.

Doesn't sound to me like the G5 would go anywhere a notebook *I*'d buy. At least not in this incarnation.


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## Arden (Sep 5, 2003)

42W would burn a hole in your pants and singe your leg hairs.  They definitely need to make it cooler before making it portable.


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## Go3iverson (Sep 5, 2003)

It's not a matter of heat and such right now to me, my main argument is, would you spend $3000.00 USD on a G4 based machine at this point in time?


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## drash (Sep 5, 2003)

If anybody has a chance to leap-frog the industry, its IBM.  Everybody is now retooling to 90nm process, which is why Motorola is having problems producing 7457 in quantity.  Their main plant for producing PowerPCs, MOS-13, at the Ed Bluestein campus (Austin TX)  is undergoing retrofit now.  But it won't be churning out anything until Spring 2004.  Problem is the indusry now is in a slight rebound and their MRAM is getting to be a hot commodity.  They won't use the MOS-12 plant at the Oak Hills campus because that's stuck at 180nm and filling big orders.  The MOS-12 in Chandler, AZ just switched over from 180nm to 130nm so that is the likely candidate for producing 7457s.  But they have a lot of big orders there too.


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## Arden (Sep 7, 2003)

Iverson, if I needed a laptop for professional reasons, then yes, definitely.

Does anybody know how big (or, rather, how small) the transistors on the P4 and AMD proccy's are?


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## fryke (Sep 7, 2003)

Go3iverson: Yes, I would. If I had the money and needed a new notebook. However, I rather need a new desktop machine sooner than later, so I'll probably get a G5 1.6 GHz (or a dual G4 1.25 GHz which in tests is the faster machine).


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## Jason (Sep 7, 2003)

id be interested in seeing these tests fryke


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## fryke (Sep 7, 2003)

Several, Jason. Cinebenchs, Photoshop benchs... It seems like while the dual 2 GHz G5 is quite a beast, the lower G5s actually don't bring _that_ much oomph... However, I'll wait another month, anyway. And wait for newer benchs..


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## fryke (Sep 7, 2003)

For example: http://www.barefeats.com/pentium4.html


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## Go3iverson (Sep 7, 2003)

Personally, if I needed a laptop along the lines of a PBG4, I'd pick up an EOL 1GHz at a nice, hefty price cut.

I've been thrilled with mine and I could probably save a ton of cash.


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## Jason (Sep 7, 2003)

ouch, so the g5 really isnt all that impressive, not surprised for some reason


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## Arden (Sep 7, 2003)

Interesting, they got better results with hyperthreading on than off, even though it usually hinders performance.  And I wonder why they decided to use less RAM in the 1.6 and 1.8 G5's?


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## ex2bot (Sep 7, 2003)

Jason, 

The 1.6 G5 uses a slower bus, slower memory, etc. Also, applications really need to be optimized for the G5 before we'll see significant speed increases.

If I read BareFeats correctly, the dual 1+ G4s beat the 1.6 G5 in some tests, especially in tests where one would expect a multiprocessor machine to excel.

BareFeats also hinted tantelizingly that tests with the new gnuC 3.3 compiler (w/G5 optimizations) are showing significant performance gains.

And, even without optimized code, the dual-2 gHz G5 is very fast.

The G5 will mop the floor with the G4s.

Doug


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## drash (Sep 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by dktrickey _
> *Jason,
> 
> The 1.6 G5 uses a slower bus, slower memory, etc. Also, applications really need to be optimized for the G5 before we'll see significant speed increases.
> ...



So far my 1.6GHz G5 has surpassed my expectations.  And it can only get better when Panther and everything else catches up to it.  Even in the classic mode it runs everything I have and boots classic in 9 seconds.  And playing with recompiles the G5 is many, many times faster than  my old G4-enhanced Beige.  I've only just started with the IBM compilers but, they are extremely impressive.  I may just try an see if I can get Eclipse to integrate with the C and C++ compilers from IBM I'm so impressed.  As you can see I've been playing too much but for those who want just an example of it's speed, SetiAtHome finishes in 1.5 hours while I'm doing other stuff.  I can only imagine what a dual 2GHz can do.  And I'm still waiting for my 1 Gbyte RAM upgrade to come in.


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## Arden (Sep 9, 2003)

I would certainly expect a G5 to trump a beige G3 with a G4 in it, since the beige G3's have much slower technologies than everything after them, including the B&W G3's.

You guys who have your G5's:   I'm never going to get one with 10-11 hours a week at minimum wage!


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## drash (Sep 10, 2003)

The only thing the G3 had in it that came close to the internal drive on my G5 is the 36GByte 10K RPM SCSI using an ATTO U160 card had almost as good a Xbench score in the G3 as my G5 drive.  I think I'm going to repackage the 36G into an external case and run it on my G5.


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## fryke (Sep 10, 2003)

You'll either need a SCSI card for the G5 or a Firewire2SCSI housing. Both are not _that_ available, though. ;-)

Apart from that: The G5 is certainly the better processor than the G4. However, the G4 - in a dual processor configuration - still has its advantages. Right now, the one machine that I _would_ like is the Dual 2 GHz G5. But that's not where my budget lies. I can either buy a 1.6 GHz G5 or a Dual 1.42 GHz G4. And there... You see, the entry-level G5 hasn't got everything the higher level machines have. And the G4 might have an edge there. Still, buying a new machine of course sounds better than an old one.

I don't know yet... I think I'll still wait a little.


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## Vard (Sep 10, 2003)

Fryke...you know as well as any, if you wait until January, that 1.6 will likely be gone and the 1.8, with all its advantages will be the low end model, and very much in more peoples budget.

Later,
Eddie


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## fryke (Sep 10, 2003)

That's probably true. And I'm thinking that I'll either buy an 'old' 1.6 GHz G5 _then_ (cheaper) or an 1.8 GHz G5 entry-level model. Depending on my finances.


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## drash (Sep 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by fryke _
> *That's probably true. And I'm thinking that I'll either buy an 'old' 1.6 GHz G5 _then_ (cheaper) or an 1.8 GHz G5 entry-level model. Depending on my finances. *



I always tell everybody to stick a couple of hundred on the sticker price to add more memory.  When I purchased my G5, I actually put that in the budget.  This is probably why I shy away from the more "powerful" computers.  The $difference between the dual-2.0 and the 1.6 was a 1GByte RAM upgrade and two 17" LCD Panels (not Apple).


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## MacLegacy (Sep 11, 2003)

There is a rumor in the Club Macintosh Quebec magazine : according to a source working in a Japanese chip factory, the G5 processor for portables would be ready to go for mass production! 

Besides, one of my family member (real, close family..) told me he knows a PC guy at work that has seen the new powerbook (big big company so they buy huge amounts..) and while he didn't mention details (G5 or not..), he said it was simply breathtaking!

Well, I take this with a pinch of salt but wouldn't it be amazing if the G5 PowerBook was to be announced at the Paris Expo??


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## Go3iverson (Sep 11, 2003)

I'd have to say g'bye to my loyal 1GHz PBG4.


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