# Apple buying SUN



## callieX (Oct 3, 2002)

There was an article on http://www.osopinion.com about the future of Sun Microsystems.   The interesting thing was a post to that article that went as follows:

 Re: Is Sun's Vision Clear? Sun and Apple.    

With Sun's stock prices down to around $3 per share and the IT market in general suffering, I think that Apple should be seriously considering purchasing Sun.
Apple is now the largest desktop Unix company and they have close relations with Sun. Apple has reignited their enterprise services philosophy with the Xserve and Mac OS X Server and they could use the additional technologies of Sun enterprise. Apple is in good financial status with $6 Billion in cash sitting in the bank and is one of the few computer companies who has remained profitable in the last 2 years.  
Anyone Have a thought

calliex


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## Hidden Gekko (Oct 3, 2002)

If it helps Apple, definantly. Every chance Apple has to get stronger is good oppurtinaty.


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## shatfield1529 (Oct 3, 2002)

Sometimes I think that with all of the iApps that Apple is releasing, the corporate acquisitions, and such, they are doing the exact same thing that Microsoft is doing to monopolize the computer market.

But then I remember that Apple doesn't produce game consoles, own cable channels, publish an e-magazine, or implement DRM measures on their hardware/software.



This was a pointless post on my part, I know. Carry on.


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## 90X Double Side (Oct 3, 2002)

Sun's stock is down all the way to $2.57 now, but that still means that they're worth $8,057,990,850; almost 30% more than Apple is.


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## AppMan (Oct 3, 2002)

I got a good idea. How about Apple take a portion of that 6.25 billion dollars and send all their customers a two button mouse!


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## JetwingX (Oct 3, 2002)

just buy an ice mouse form macally...
it's about 20-30 dollars cheeper then appls


anyways. If apple took over SUN we could also have Java along with UNIX in our operating system.


that would be REALLY nice


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## sheepguy42 (Oct 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by JetosX _
> *just buy an ice mouse form macally...
> it's about 20-30 dollars cheeper then appls
> 
> ...


I'll assume the "winking smiley" meant you were kidding, seeing as how   we *DO* have JAVA. Anyway, along with what 90X Double Side mentioned, I always saw SUN as being bigger than Apple, and even if they were the same size Apple simply isn't big enough or having enough capital to justify such a purchase. Maybe far into the future, if SUN really starts to die or something... obviously Apple is getting stronger... but still, if it's gonna happen it's a loooong way off.


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## Rhino_G3 (Oct 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by sheepguy42 _
> * and even if they were the same size Apple simply isn't big enough or having enough capital to justify such a purchase.  *



especialy with the talk of layoffs in the near future...


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## 90X Double Side (Oct 4, 2002)

Actually, we don't really have a very useable version of Java; the incredibly old version that comes with Jaguar isn't supported anymore by most developers


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## vanguard (Oct 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by 90X Double Side _
> *Actually, we don't really have a very useable version of Java; the incredibly old version that comes with Jaguar isn't supported anymore by most developers  *



1.3.1 is not "incredibly old", it's commonly used.  Apple's impementation of the jvm is amoung the best.

A 1.4 implemetation will be out soon but I don't realy miss it yet.


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## jcart12 (Oct 4, 2002)

If you look at the vast majority of dev tools, they are still based on 1.3. Some environments still even use 1.2. Although upgrading the JVM is easy and normally there shouldn't be issues running under a new JRE.

I just wanted to point out that it isn't a hindrance running 1.3.1 for most Java devs. I can still run TomCat, develop JSP and Servlets with no problems. I can even roll out under JVM 1.4 environment. Currently I'm developing using WebMethods under OS X and it isn't even supported by WebMethods. The beauty of Java, all I needed to do was tweek some config files and voila it worked. By the way the window version comes with 1.2 as part of the installer. So there you go if you think 1.3.1 is old.

If you look at the point release information, your often see the differences (excl 1.1 -> 1.2 that's more like OSX 10.1 -> 10.2 diffs) are small, performance related or apply to very specialised areas.

John.


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## dave17lax (Oct 4, 2002)

Apple doesn't need to buy anymore companies for awhile.


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## roger (Oct 4, 2002)

In my particular industry Sun is under pressure because of Linux replacing it.

What would apple want with another UNIX? It would be the hardware that they are after, but they have just brought out the X-Server, which is selling very well.

I am not sure that it would be a great idea - too much market overlap in my opinion. However stranger things have happened.

Would Sun want Apple taking over anyway, with Jobs being on serveral 'worst boards of directors'?


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## ccuilla (Oct 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by 90X Double Side _
> *Actually, we don't really have a very useable version of Java; the incredibly old version that comes with Jaguar isn't supported anymore by most developers  *



Hmmm...I'll try to be polite here....but it is tough. You don't really know what you're talking about, do you?

Java 1.3.1 is not "incredibly" old. And it is still widely used.

Unlike many people that might frequent these boards, not everyone MUST update every version of something the moment it comes out. Working in a coporation as I do, we move much more slowly than that (with good reason I might add). Upgrading to new versions of software (especially Java, on which a lot of our code is built), is a SERIOUS move that may have have SERIOUS ramifications (sometimes negative).


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## wiz (Oct 5, 2002)

how about SUN buying Apple 
(thats not possible right now, i know)

but thats cool! 

SUN is better, have u ever tried their products.

its like ROCK SOLID! 

the only thing they are missing are the UI & Graphics concepts of apple.


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## plastic (Oct 6, 2002)

The POSSIBILITY is there, definitely. Even Dell has mentioned that enterprise business is the way to go to ensure that the company remain profitable. 

Apple might be seriously eyeing that share of the pie. Secured servers, reliable and cost effectiveness is an edge is some way. Many cmpanies are tired with dealing with viruses on the Win platform. But can Win users really move out of the platform and rely on Apple?

Enterprise solutions.... can Apple deliver something rock solid and at the same time, maintain their strong foot hold in the creative industry? We will see... buy Sun. They rock! Solaris X server! LOL...


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## Koelling (Oct 6, 2002)

I have been thinking that a closer relationship with Sun would be great. Sun is the ultimate good guy as far as I am concerned, if for no other reason than opensourse stuff that comes from them. No, I don't think that Apple should buy them out, but investing in some of their stock and maybe collaborating on some things wouldn't hurt. Not on hardware, just on philosphy. They've got Spark which is cool but suffers even more megahertz myth than poor G4.


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## symphonix (Oct 6, 2002)

It is hard to see if there is anything Apple could really gain from a purchase of Sun. Apple already has access to most if not all of Sun's technologies. It would be hard to justify spending billions of dollars if it only broadens their position very slightly.


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## earthshine (Oct 7, 2002)

Wasn't it just a (relatively) short time ago that plenty more folks talked about Sun buying Apple?

There's no need to combine these two companies. Recent history suggests that combinations of corporate 'cultures' (or lack thereof) can make two imperfectly decent companies into one perfect disaster.

Let Sun do what it does best, and let Apple do what it does best. If there isn't an overwhelming need for a merger/acquisition, then don't mess.

eshine+eshine-


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## cvisors (Oct 7, 2002)

Hi all,

Apple buying sun, don't really think so yet,
but there is another Unix workstation vendor, 
that apple could look at, that is sgi (silicon
graphic).  Irix (the sgi version of UNIX) was
known as the most user friendly version of UNIX
that was available. Apple seems to be moving
into the markets that sgi once dominated.

Also sgi makes cool looking machines.

Benjamin


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## plastic (Oct 7, 2002)

Humour thought.

Sun shine on Apple trees make them grow better... hmmm....
I hope so. If they really do merge. 

Like SGI, Apple might want to have a larger pie of the military industry and the only true passage they have is NASA. Maybe Apple wants to get into the DoD tenders? Sun has had a good foothold in the military industries, so this might be what Uncle Jobs wanted.


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## strobe (Oct 7, 2002)

Problem with Sun is they don't own or do anything useful |-p

BTW Java sucks! I hate the language, the API, and the platform. What was going through Apple's head when they tried to improve Swing is beyond me.


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## hazmat (Oct 7, 2002)

I don't think either should buy either.  But, I think that Darwin could learn a lot from Solaris, and CDE (puke) could learn a lot from Aqua.  Sun's moving to GNOME is a really good step, though.  Even though they're expensive, I think that SPARC might be a nice processor for Apple to think about for the future.


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## karavite (Oct 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by AppMan _
> *I got a good idea. How about Apple take a portion of that 6.25 billion dollars and send all their customers a two button mouse!
> 
> *



This is the best!!!


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## plastic (Oct 7, 2002)

Ha ha ha... the industrial design dept has been fighting with Uncle Jobs over this for the longest time. One button mouse wins, because kids and old folks will not be confused. 

For the more "advanced" users, we will have to go get a two-three-four-five button mouse from the other vendors, like MS, Logitech (spit!) or Kensington (hurray!).

Like Metallica sings : "You know its sad but true..."


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## dave17lax (Oct 7, 2002)

honestly, i think that computers and 2 button mice have been around long enough to negate the idea that people would be confused. maybe i'm wrong?


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## karavite (Oct 7, 2002)

The Apple industrial designers probably feel two buttons will distrub the clean lines of the current mouse - and don't even mention a scroll wheel!


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## vanguard (Oct 7, 2002)

One mouse button is terrible.  Six year olds can work arcade games but Apple thinks I can't handle three buttons?

Lots of people suggest that I buy an aftermarket mouse.  Those people don't realize that I'm relaxing on my couch using a notebook with a wireless ethernet connection.


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## hazmat (Oct 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by vanguard _
> *One mouse button is terrible.  Six year olds can work arcade games but Apple thinks I can't handle three buttons?
> 
> Lots of people suggest that I buy an aftermarket mouse.  Those people don't realize that I'm relaxing on my couch using a notebook with a wireless ethernet connection. *



And there's the problem.  I can't always have an external mouse when using a laptop, so I need to be happy with the internal device.


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## karavite (Oct 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by hazmat _
> *And there's the problem.  I can't always have an external mouse when using a laptop, so I need to be happy with the internal device. *



Have you tried QuicKeys along with full keyboard access in 10.2?


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## hazmat (Oct 7, 2002)

I don't have a laptop, so I don't need that stuff.


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## strobe (Oct 7, 2002)

I like the fact that Mac apps only require one button even though I use a four button mouse. Compare that with UNIX apps which require a three button mouse or many Windows apps which require two button mice.

The UNIX three button requirement is really stupid. The rationale is you don't have to use the keyboard to cut+paste, but since drag+drop text you can do the same with one button, only better. Well, at least when using Carbon apps.*

Some Windows apps require two buttons like S-Plus. They have some complicated mouse gestures which have no equivalents in menus or whatever. Goes to show the foresight of Apple's human interface guidelines when insisting on all commands being available within (but not eclusive to) the global menu hierarchy. It may be inefficient but at least you can get there with a simple linear set of directions and then you can use a more efficient mouse gesture later. Just goes to show why I hate Windows apps more than Windows itself.

* Cocoa's NSLayoutManager has a really stupid behavior whereby there is a delay when trying to drag+drop text. It makes the behavior absolutely useless and also makes it impossible to use the delay-click for another behavior like a contextual menu popup. C'mon you former NeXT programmers at Apple, either Drag+drop text is enabled or disabled, the delay is INSANE!!!


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## hazmat (Oct 7, 2002)

Which UNIX requires a 3-button mouse?  I know UNIX workstations tend to come with them, but I never saw it required.  Not saying I'm right, though.  We have some Solaris Intel servers at work.  They are running on these massive Compaq servers, which have 2-button mice.  Linux can also run with 2-button mice.  you can emulate the third button if you want with both buttons.


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## plastic (Oct 7, 2002)

/me looks at the Kensington Trackball with many many buttons and giggle... guess we need more buttons for shortcuts... and make our lives easier. 

Why?

We are intelligent Mac users....

/me remembers the survey conducted by CNN which shows that most Mac users are more intelligent... LOL... 

DON'T FRIGGING FLAME ME FOR THIS! CNN SAID THAT. 

(but I kinda believe, reading all the posts in this board). 

I became more stupid after I bought the AMD system. :cry:


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## vanguard (Oct 7, 2002)

I've been using different flavors of unix for 7 years and I've never seen a 3 button mouse requirement.  Really, the middle mouse button just makes it easier.

I wouldn't doubt that some windows apps require two buttons but for every function I can think of, it just makes it easier.

Most mac apps would benefit from a second (or third) button.  Also, most mac apps already work with one.  The fact that most apps are prepared to work with a second (or third) button proves that Apple was shortsighted when they developed their guidelines.

Vanguard


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## sheepguy42 (Oct 7, 2002)

Strobe didn't say that the OS required a 3-button mouse, but rather that some apps did. In fact, the whole complaint of the post was directed towards apps. Vanguard  I am pretty sure theGIMP requires a 3-button mouse, as do many UNIX apps.


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## plastic (Oct 8, 2002)

Can someone from Apple Industrial Design department please acknowledge that YOU have read this thread? Before we start protesting at Infinity Loop.


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## karavite (Oct 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by plastic _
> *Can someone from Apple Industrial Design department please acknowledge that YOU have read this thread? Before we start protesting at Infinity Loop.  *



I just recieved this direct notification from Apple's mouse design department!

"I'm going to tell you and your khaki wearing friends this once and only once. My work is my ART and as such you do not use it, you must *interpret* it. The one button mouse is part of my latest series of work where I am exploring minimalism in the post post-modernist era, but it is also influenced by something of a recent epiphany I experienced regarding my abusive transvestite step father. As such, I think I was quite successful in juxtaposing our cultures struggle with rampant consumerism and the tragic denial of personal expression in a monolithic society. If all you Mac buyers were capable of acknowledging your pop-culture based brainwashing and take a moment to really *experience* the deeper meaning of the one button mouse, you might realize that I have personally created a new paradigm where form and function transcend the banal."


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## Rhino_G3 (Oct 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by strobe _
> *I like the fact that Mac apps only require one button even though I use a four button mouse. Compare that with UNIX apps which require a three button mouse or many Windows apps which require two button mice.
> 
> The UNIX three button requirement is really stupid. The rationale is you don't have to use the keyboard to cut+paste, but since drag+drop text you can do the same with one button, only better. Well, at least when using Carbon apps.*
> ...



Using only one button for many apps gets insanely limiting when you run into complicated apps.  My right button makes photoshop a dream compared to running it with the single button. Maya (as well as many other 3d apps) make great use of all three buttons.  In fact within maya there are many times when you have to use more than one mouse button in an operation. 
I require a two button mouse at the very least.  Thinking about doing with less, within my computing environment, is absurd.


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## hazmat (Oct 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by strobe _
> *
> The UNIX three button requirement is really stupid. The rationale is you don't have to use the keyboard to cut+paste, but since drag+drop text you can do the same with one button, only better. Well, at least when using Carbon apps.*
> *



I know we've gone over the fact that Unix doesn't need a third button, but one thing about the drag and drop is that you have to have the target window visible.  So if it's not, you have to go positioning windows, then do it.  With the 3-button mouse, it doesn't matter where the target window it, or if it's even open.  Much faster and more effient I think.


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## plastic (Oct 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by karavite _
> *I just recieved this direct notification from Apple's mouse design department!
> 
> "I'm going to tell you and your khaki wearing friends this once and only once. My work is my ART and as such you do not use it, you must *interpret* it. The one button mouse is part of my latest series of work where I am exploring minimalism in the post post-modernist era, but it is also influenced by something of a recent epiphany I experienced regarding my abusive transvestite step father. As such, I think I was quite successful in juxtaposing our cultures struggle with rampant consumerism and the tragic denial of personal expression in a monolithic society. If all you Mac buyers were capable of acknowledging your pop-culture based brainwashing and take a moment to really *experience* the deeper meaning of the one button mouse, you might realize that I have personally created a new paradigm where form and function transcend the banal." *



Me bows in worship of the post-post-modernist industrial design... OMMMMMMM....


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## MDLarson (Oct 8, 2002)

I don't like it when companies buy other companies.  People can lose jobs and customers lose service.  The buying company becomes more and more like Microsoft and more huge.

But that's just me


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## plastic (Oct 8, 2002)

In some ways I have to agree with MDLarson. But you realised that when Apple bought over EMagic, no one was laid off and in fact, EMagic just got stronger and better! So in many ways, our favourite fruit company is different... for now.


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## strobe (Oct 9, 2002)

If the target for your drag isn't visible you can drag it to a temporary location. A better solution would be if the target could be made visible by hovering over the app in the Dock. 

Another thing I absolutely hate about the UNIX behavior is you can't paste over a selection to replace it. UGH!

Furthermore I never said an app shouldn't take advantage of extra buttons, I said extra buttons shouldn't be REQUIRED! That is the methodology at work here.


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