# Café overload



## Randman (Jun 18, 2004)

The recent push toward pushing more and more things to the Café seems a bit overdone. The gmail thread, for instance. Perhaps it's not Apple branded, but it is a viable topic for discussion and there were questions pertaining to using it with both Safari and Mail. So perhaps, rather than automatically shunting everything deemed unworthy to the Café, perhaps a consideration should be made first.
  If not, Apple discussion, then surely it would be right at home in the Software thread. 

_Apple News, Rumors & Discussion: For discussing newsworthy information and serious rumors about the Mac platform._ Well, many items could fit under this. Gmail could for compatibility issues as well as potential implications for .Mac.

_System & Software: All questions and problems related to running OS X should be posted here as well as those for miscellaneous software not more specifically covered in other forum_ As mentioned earlier, this is where it belongs, imo.

_The Café: Welcome! Pull up a seat, discuss whatever else is on your mind. Wireless internet available. Now serving off-topic and other unusual discussions. Open 24/7._ Off-topic. This has always seemed a forum for non-computer related threads, or threads of a more lighthearted nature.


If there's going to be a change in how the forums are organized, please be consistent.


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## Ricky (Jun 18, 2004)

Moved to site discussion.


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## mi5moav (Jun 18, 2004)

I think we need a few more forums... Any plans on a site update?? colors or anything like that? Would also like a weekly poll or something on the right hands side... and I don't think the gallery has gotten enough mention.


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## JetwingX (Jun 20, 2004)

well the gallery got really pushed when it was first but up (way before your time)

and yes i agree that café is over crowded.

can we bring back the "???" forum to maybe ease the overflow


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## Randman (Jun 22, 2004)

This is getting ridiculous. Every other thread is going into the cafe these days. And the heavy-handed approach from a handful of the moderators isn't helping matters much.
Things should be done to make visiting easier and more enjoyable, not more difficult and more restrictive.


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## JetwingX (Jun 22, 2004)

SCOTT??!!! where are ya??!!

ed... you would work well too ^^


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## TommyWillB (Jun 22, 2004)

Uh oh... The last form addition/removal/change took months of excruciating discussion.

I dread reliving this again...

...so maybe it is time for the wize and sage edX to jump in as he guided us so well last time.


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## mdnky (Jun 23, 2004)

Randman said:
			
		

> Every other thread is going into the cafe these days.


Every thread about GMail maybe...which has absolutely nothing to do with APPLE news, APPLE rumors, or APPLE discussion.  GMail is not affiliated with APPLE in any way.  GMail isn't software either, it's an online service.

There has to be a point when something doesn't fit and the majority of recent GMail threads have reached that point.  Someone asking "Who else is using GMail?" is definitely not a proper post for either of the two places you mentioned in the original post.  Same with "Who wants invites to GMail?".  Those are off-topic general questions, which the Cafe is for.





			
				Randman said:
			
		

> the heavy-handed approach from a handful of the moderators isn't helping matters much.


By that I assume you mean those who you don't agree with?  Welcome to the real world where not everyone will agree with you.  

Everyone is entitled to their own views and opinions of course.  BUT that doesn't mean something will change just because one person wants it to/thinks it should, nor does it mean you're right/they're wrong or vice versa, nor does it mean others are being "heavy-handed" when they disagree with you or do something you disagree with.  

There are guidelines for each forum area which cover the general topics for said area...the descriptions.  The mods for the Apple N/R/D area made a choice that certain threads shouldn't be there and moved them.  That's one of the reasons we have mods here...to ensure things are where they're supposed to be.


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## Randman (Jun 23, 2004)

In that case, why did you leave BobW's post in Apple News about Carnivore alone??


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## Randman (Jun 23, 2004)

And why did he, being a SuperMod, put the post there in the first place if he didn't think it was the appropriate place for it?
   The site can be run anyway people want it to, even to the ground. But making it more difficult and repressive for people is just going to push more and more people away. Hasn't there been enough defections in the past few months??

  And on a personal note, I do find it quite ironic that someone who's basically a kid is saying welcome to real world.


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## mdnky (Jun 23, 2004)

The Apple N/R/D isn't one of my areas, so if something is there that shouldn't be then the proper people will move it.  

There's nothing difficult nor repressive about it.  There are rules and there are proper places for things in just about anything we do in life, as with the forums here.  One of the reasons of this area (site discussion) is for making suggestions...that doesn't mean everything suggested is needed or will be done, nor does it mean it won't be done.

Ironic?  No, not really.  I could have used a reference to a kid and how they get angry when someone disagrees with them or tells them no, but I didn't.  It might be more prevelant behavior among a kid, but the same human nature is present in even the oldest amongst us.  But how's this for the real world:

The real world is coding (CPR) an 8yr drowned child because her parents left her unattended in the Jacuzzi tub while they drank beer and partied on the 4th of July.  The real world is a drunk driver hitting a family who was driving home on X-Mass eve minding their own business.  The drunk survived the wreck virtually unscathed, yet only a single person in the family's car survived (in bad shape at that)...a young child who lost both parents and his baby sister that night.  The real kicker is when that young child starts to cry for his mommy and daddy while you're working on him in the back of the Ambulance...screaming for them and asking where they are.  How do you handle something like that.  Merry X-Mass, huh?  

I could go on for a long time with things that would make you cringe...more examples of the real world.  But why?  I'm sure you've had more than enough experiences with it...hopefully none so horrible as some of those I've seen in the past 7 to 8 years.  To tell you the truth, it disgusts me (the real world) sometimes.  But hey, that's life.  What can happen will happen, what can't might, and what should never happen does happen.  And we're absolutely powerless to stop it all the time.


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## Randman (Jun 23, 2004)

mdnky said:
			
		

> The Apple N/R/D isn't one of my areas, so if something is there that shouldn't be then the proper people will move it.


 Well, honestly, that's passing the buck and simply saying that's not my department. 



			
				mdnky said:
			
		

> There's nothing difficult nor repressive about it.  There are rules and there are proper places for things in just about anything we do in life, as with the forums here.  One of the reasons of this area (site discussion) is for making suggestions...that doesn't mean everything suggested is needed or will be done, nor does it mean it won't be done.


In your opinion, it may not be. In mine, it is repressive. 
  And if there's a proper place for things, then the descriptions of the forum threads I posted originally are not being followed by several of the moderators on this board, some of which go through phases where they wield a heavy hand without much rhyme or reason.



			
				mdnky said:
			
		

> The real world is coding (CPR) an 8yr drowned child because her parents left her unattended in the Jacuzzi tub while they drank beer and partied on the 4th of July.  The real world is a drunk driver hitting a family who was driving home on X-Mass eve minding their own business.  The drunk survived the wreck virtually unscathed, yet only a single person in the family's car survived (in bad shape at that)...a young child who lost both parents and his baby sister that night.  The real kicker is when that young child starts to cry for his mommy and daddy while you're working on him in the back of the Ambulance...screaming for them and asking where they are.  How do you handle something like that.  Merry X-Mass, huh?
> 
> I could go on for a long time with things that would make you cringe...more examples of the real world.



I'm not sure what relevance this has to the topic. Those do sound like terrible things but many of have experiences like that, to greater or less degrees. Personally, in my work (as a journalist) I've seen domestic fatalities where the wound was so fresh, blood from the shotgun hole in the young woman's side was still leaking blood while her mother was hysterical outside the house and the 8-year-old kid who saw her daddy kill her mommy was being taken away from the scene.
   I've seen overdoses where the needle was still in the girl's arm. I've seen the aftermath of fires that killed an entire family because someone fell asleep with a ciggie on the couch. I've known people who survived (and some who didn't) the WTC attacks on 9/11. I personally knew some of the people killed  in the terrorist attacks in Bali and had to visit friends in the hospital recovering from horrific burns and injuries from the attack. I've had friends die of cancer before their 18th birthday. I've been told by a doctor that he didn't expect my comatose mother to survive the night for 5 consecutive nights.
   I've seen car wrecks and accidents and murders and suicides. I've sat and interviewed a teen who hacked his girlfriend and mother to death with an axe during his murder trial.
  I've seen abject poverty in the third-world that most Americans and Europeans can barely begin to imagine.
  So I gotta laugh when someone tells me welcome to the real world. The real world is something I feel pretty knowledgeable about.
  But this isn't the real world. This is a little break from reality to discuss and talk about and sometimes argue about something I truly love: the Macintosh platform and the world of Apple.

  I was first drawn to this site because people seemed friendly. Not a lot of trolls, plenty of people willing to help and even willing to agree to disagree. But in a very short time, that has seemed to change. And not for the better. And in my view, it has the distinct potential to further alienate people if some mods have to try and act like substitute teachers (I'll show you who's boss, until the real boss arrives) rather than trying to communicate with people and treating everyone like they're some bratty kid the mod is being forced to babysit.


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## bobw (Jun 23, 2004)

> In that case, why did you leave BobW's post in Apple News about Carnivore alone??





> And why did he, being a SuperMod, put the post there in the first place if he didn't think it was the appropriate place for it?



I put Carnivore in the Apple News and Rumors because it's news about new software for the Mac platform.


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## Cat (Jun 23, 2004)

By that reasoning all the Gmail threads are legit, as Gmail has only recently become compatible with Safari. You could consider it a new cross-platform web based mail program in beta-testing.


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## bobw (Jun 23, 2004)

Good point, but most Gmail posts are requesting an account. These would go into Cafe.


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## mi5moav (Jun 23, 2004)

How about a poll boys!!!


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## edX (Jun 24, 2004)

this is what happens when apple goes too long without giving us something real to talk about. we all get a little irritable about one thing or another. like tommy said, at one point we put a lot of time and effort into creating a vast array of forums that would fit just about every subject imaginable. but people complained it was too spread out, scott slimed it down, and we went on. now the complaint is about how we file. yes, i agree, too many things are getting dumped in the cafe. i've even found threads with mac in the title being placed there. i try to move them when i catch them. but mostly i leave this work to the moderators, that's what they're paid for - cough, cough. 

frankly, unless you're a newbie here, you should be able to quickly and effciently find all active new threads by hitting "new posts" at the top. once you've been here long enough, it doesn't really matter what forum a post is in. the organization is more for newbs and people with specific interests than about problem solving if you ask me. 

still, these complaints have been seen, and who knows, sooner or later we might address them if they keep up. i always appreciate the feedback.


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## Randman (Jun 24, 2004)

Well said, Ed, and thanks. It helps knowing someone is thinking as well as well as listening to some of us who aren't shy about posting an opinion. ::angel::


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