# G3 desktop crashs with everything! help, please.



## makus (Apr 29, 2003)

hi dear people.

There is a G3 beige desktop 266mhz with 575 mb ram and a an extra 60 gb harddrive + the original hd with 4 gb.
Running systems are on the 60gb OS 9.2.2 and on the 4gb OS9.1
The comp started crashing last week. It becomes so bad that I have to write this from a different computer. 

It crashes  with the os 9.2.2 system and with 9.1 system ( on the extra hd)
also with a norton booted systemworks cd. 
relativly unregularly. 
sometimes while starting up. sometimes when I start working with  word or different programs like explorer and so on. but after 15 minutes it crashes.

it also crashes when I start up with extention off! 
tryed to reset the pram and starting up with  extention off. crash.

it has to be the hardware...?...
the cpu gets to hot? but it crashes in the morning while start up when the comp was cold.

i dont know.
i need this comp for my work. 
please help!!!


thanks for respond
markus


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## rob1au (Apr 29, 2003)

Hi Markus,

When you startup which of the HD's is the startup disk. 

You need to have on of the drives set as the startup disk preferably 9.2.2.

The problem is ot could be that you hav the two systems as this is not recommended and will cause alsorts of problems.

The best thing to do is get rid of the 9.1 system altogether.

You can have the extra HD formatted but not have a system on it.

The startup HD will recognise the other HD and should automatically mount it at or after startup.

If there are any further questions let us know

Robert


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## makus (Apr 29, 2003)

I never had problems with the two systems on two pysical different hds. 

So I try. I dont really need the second system.

Does anybody has an other opinion to this problem.

Thanks
markus


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## JohnnyV (Apr 29, 2003)

Sounds like it could be a bad ram chip.  If what rob1aut suggested doesn't work, turn off the computer and remove all the ram.  Put one stick in and start up, if the problems are still there shutdown, remove that and put the other stick in and start and test.  Continue this with every stick of ram.  If it works fine up a certain stick toss that one and put the rest in a test again.


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## Cheryl (Apr 29, 2003)

If the Memory chips are all fine then use an OS CD and run Dist First Aide or Disk Utility from the Os X CD.  

I never really liked SystemWorks, The Norton Utilities or Drive 10 from Micromat will work better.


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## makus (Apr 30, 2003)

is this the only way to check the ram sticks?

about system works I only wanted to describe that the ppc is crashing when I have a foreign boot cd...
thanks
markus


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## Cheryl (Apr 30, 2003)

Did you get a Hardware Test CD with your system?  I do not recall when Apple started shipping those.  If not, the only way is to pull them one at a time to test them.

By the way, Check your memory control panel. Make sure the disk cache is set to 32 X the amount of ram you have installed (32 x 512 = 16,384k) Virtual memory is on and RAM disk is off.


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## JohnnyV (Apr 30, 2003)

If you do have the hardware test cd, it doesn't always detect bad ram, I've had friends who had bad ram and the cd didn't think it was bad


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## makus (May 1, 2003)

"Make sure the disk cache is set to 32 X the amount of ram you have installed (32 x 512 = 16,384k) Virtual memory is on and RAM disk is off. "

Why vitual memory on? I just had the vitual memory at a max. of 990 mb because I had extram large images to calculate. usually its off. disk cache is usually at 5800 k.  I can try. 

there is no hardwaretest cd here.

what about dust?
two or three weeks ago I tryed to clean the ventilation above the cpu. it was kind of dirty. so maybe some of the dust fall down. can this bring trouble?

the troubleshoot will take place at this weekend. so I could not preceed with any shooting yet. i am going to report about this.

thanks a lot so far...
markus


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## Cheryl (May 1, 2003)

Dust would not cause your crashes. But if you opened the case, you might have something loose and not sitting properly.


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## Jabberwocky (May 1, 2003)

Firstly, what do you mean by it crashes? Do you get an error message or does it just freeze? Secondly, the machine does a hardware integrity check of its own in between the start-up chime and the first appearance of the grey screen. There are various different tones that you will hear depending on the problem found if any - who can forget the fantastic penny rattling in a tin can sound from the Quadra 840AV?   

You said that the machine also crashes when you boot from the Norton CD, well that has happened to me on occasion so I am inclined to ignore it.

Troubleshooting is a lengthy process as you have to eliminate all possibilities in order to locate the source of the problem - get used to the startup chime!

It could be anything from software corruption, a communication problem or a hardware problem, and I am also referring to external devices. A SCSI cable that has been knocked slightly can disrupt comms in the chain. SCSI cables can go bad - don't ask me how or why, but they just seem to do so sometimes - maybe a twist in the wrong direction - I have thrown away several in my time. An improperly terminated SCSI chain can also hang the machine.

With that in mind, unplug all external devices, scanners, Jaz drives etc. and just work with the basic desktop machine, power cable, keyboard & monitor and see if you can start up. Call up extensions manager and only boot with Apple OS components.

Boot from the Apple OS install CD (8.5 or 8.6 came with the G3) or boot from an known good external SCSI drive if you have one and see if you can firstly run Disk First Aid, and then install a clean OS - select the option to move your old OS into the folder *Previous System Folder*. Leave the clean installed OS as your boot folder and do not add your 3rd party components back in yet.

Once you have the machine booting fine on it's own, shut-down and plug in external devices one at a time and reboot. if all is ok, shutdown again and add the next device in the chain and repeat ad nauseam.


As I understand it, virtual memory also acts as a sort of memory manager and that when turned on, the machine performs much better. I cannot say for sure whether it does or not, but I know it does two things:
1. takes up a large amount of disk space
2. fragements the hard drive

Having more than one OS on the same or another disk does not affect the machine. In fact, having one on each HD is good as it allows you to boot from the alternate disk to diagnose the other... but having both or more on the same disk is fine too. I have had 8.5, 8.6, 9.1 & 9.2 all on the same disk on my G3/300 for the last couple of years without a problem.


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## Arden (May 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Jabberwocky_
> *who can forget the fantastic penny rattling in a tin can sound from the Quadra 840AV?*


That sounds like what my iMac does when I boot it with extensions off (which I have to do frequently as that is the most stable way of restarting the machine sometimes because it tends to freeze upon startup quite frequently).  Any suggestions there?

makus: I suggest you back up anything on the 4 GB drive, if possible, and remove the 60 GB drive, plus everything else from your computer.  Run anything you possibly can to wipe the internal disk clean; recently, I had to wipe this machine clean and reinstall the system to fix numerous bugs/glitches/etc.  Personally, I had to boot with Techtool Pro 2.5 and I then ran Silverlining Pro off a Zip to reformat the drive.  If you have enough room either on another computer or on removable media, back up and reformat your 60 GB drive as well if the problems do not go away.  If they do, I recommend you leave your drive alone.


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## Cheryl (May 4, 2003)

First, it is highly recommended that you only have one system folder on a drive.  The only exception is OS 9 and OS X. 

If you were inside the machine, I suggest you check out all the cables in there to make sure everything is seated properly. Just push in each and every cable. 

What did you use to clean the dust off of the case? Did you install anything just before you had this problem? 

Can you boot with an OS C?


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## makus (May 5, 2003)

arden: I dont understand your worries about the 60 gb hd?
Jabberwocky: it just freezes. once it gave a bomb while start up. 
 i turned of memory check at the memory control panel. i try to turn it on again.
cheryl: no install before. i cleaned it with a paper toal but just the ventilation. never tryed to boot with a OS. what is the difference? 

I am remote to the computer... my wife is telling me all the problems via telephone. we try to fix the thing again.
thanks to all.
we'll see in the next days...


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## makus (May 5, 2003)

the computer freezes now and you can't turn it off. we have to unplug the cables. ups!  
we are opening the computer today...
m


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## makus (May 15, 2003)

ok. dear people. thanks for your help....
It was like. I am in Europe and my wife in the US on the phone. I told her every step she should do. It worked out. 
We unplugged everything changed all ram sticks .... one after one and everything back on ..... and the comp runs again.  
It was obviously the dust.... 

thanks again I learned a lot.
markus


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## Jabberwocky (May 15, 2003)

glad there is a happy ending. Good job.


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