# Iran: Thoughts?



## ScottW (Jan 25, 2006)

Okay... I know many here hate policitical discussions and honestly, if you have a hard time dealing with opposing views... then please refrain from reading further.

I am curious what folks think about Iran and their current verbage spewing forth about Israel and the associated reactions either by Israel or other countries, EU,  etc.

I obviously have my own opinion, but will let others get things started.


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## ksv (Jan 25, 2006)

Iran is a totalitarian fascist regime, but good old Khamenei is doing a great job on PR.


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## fryke (Jan 25, 2006)

I'll answer that one once the USA answers the questions about the CIA flights and torture camps.


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## Rhisiart (Jan 25, 2006)

fryke said:
			
		

> I'll answer that one once the USA answers the questions about the CIA flights and torture camps.


With UK support .....


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## markceltic (Jan 25, 2006)

Strange isn't it this region of the world called the "cradle of civilization".


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## ScottW (Jan 25, 2006)

markceltic said:
			
		

> Strange isn't it this region of the world called the "cradle of civilization".



Yea... but most people grew up and left.


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## fryke (Jan 25, 2006)

Well, it seems to attract a lot of "civilised" people lately, doesn't it.


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## g/re/p (Jan 25, 2006)

I think the whole damned middle east should be vaporized from the face of the earth.


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## ksv (Jan 25, 2006)

g/re/p said:
			
		

> I think the whole damned middle east should be vaporized from the face of the earth.



Being from Texas, you are pretty much a subject for vaporization yourself.


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## Slutty Bear (Jan 25, 2006)

I personally just turned 18... and yeah... if a war happened: war + draft = me dead.  I am also what you would probably call a pansy.


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## RGrphc2 (Jan 26, 2006)

Slutty Bear said:
			
		

> I personally just turned 18... and yeah... if a war happened: war + draft = me dead.  I am also what you would probably call a pansy.



get in line behind me.

I never thought america should have been in Iraq in the first place.  What happened to Osama?  I don't think America will do anything in Iran because of their investment in this Nation (oil money) & Halliburton


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## Zammy-Sam (Jan 26, 2006)

g/re/p said:
			
		

> I think the whole damned middle east should be vaporized from the face of the earth.


Uffff, what a statement.
Let's rethink the dicussions about the civilized regions.
Btw, I am iranian.
I will give some impressions when I have a moment. Just had to give a statement to that classic post of an american g/re/p.


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## g/re/p (Jan 26, 2006)

HaHa! I knew that would ruffle some feathers, but so be it. 
If i was in the position to make such a decision i would NOT 
actually vaporize the middle east - but only because innocent 
people would die alongside the jihadists.

The way i see it is this: A very large group of a certain
religious persuasion - in this case radical islamists - 
want to force non-islamic people to convert to their religion 
with the only other choice being death.

If these smacktard nutcases are willing to die for their warped 
ideals, i think someone - or some country - should help them 
toward that goal.

Maybe we could get them to all go to Norway and then
nuke them after they drive all the norwegians out...
(make sure they let fryke escape - i like him)


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## fryke (Jan 26, 2006)

I'm in Switzerland, though. ksv's in Norway, I believe. But I like _him_, too, so...


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## Perseus (Jan 26, 2006)

Cut the superficiality.


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## g/re/p (Jan 26, 2006)

Perseus said:
			
		

> Cut the superficiality.



If you don't like the subject, stay out of the thread.....


:O)


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## ksv (Jan 26, 2006)

Perseus said:
			
		

> Cut the superficiality.



I think the only way to end the superficiality of this discussion is to contribute to it in a more thorough way 
You seem to have opinions on the subject; share them!


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## adambyte (Jan 26, 2006)

Allow me to contribute to the superficiallity of this thread:

Bad: Bush administration, Iranian government, people who kill anybody, Hitler, stepping in dog doo.

Good: Barbara boxer, grilled cheese sandwiches.


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## spb (Jan 26, 2006)

I typically don't have time to devote to these discussions, but I must admit that I'm a little disappointed with the present state of the situation.  

(1)  Although Iran has potential for democratic reform, the moderate (reform) majority totally blew the last election by fragmenting itself across parties.

(2)  The present government in Iran is seeking nuclear weapons and knows that its time is limited because (hopefully) the next round of elections will see a the reformers taking control.  

(3)  The US is preoccupied with Iraq, Afghanistan, and others.  (By the way it is not impossible that the US was given bad information about Iraq from Iranian agents -- if so it was an excellent plan.)  

(4)  The EU is not handling the negotiations well.  Europe's refusal to build a continental army leaves them dependent on the US military for enforcement of UN sanctions.  

(5) The possibility of a useful security council resolution seems slim -- Russia has a vested interest in making this situation drag out.  

I have no idea what is going to come from all of this, but it doesn't look good.  Once Pakistan tested it's nuclear weapons it was apparent that the clock was ticking on the spread of these throughout the middle east.  The combined policies of the US and EU has done nothing to democratize this region.  Both have vested time and money into supporting dictatorship and monarchies rather than honest democratic movements.  The first attempt to destabilize these was the war in Afghanistan, but this was so late in the game -- of course this is easy to say now since we don't worry about the Stalinists as we once did.  

For as much as many HATE the Bush government, we've come to a point that the only hope is that the new Iraq and Afghanistan grow in strength and security and that there is a domino effect.


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## fryke (Jan 26, 2006)

spb said:
			
		

> For as much as many HATE the Bush government, we've come to a point that the only hope is that the new Iraq and Afghanistan grow in strength and security and that there is a domino effect.


Well... The first error is the thinking that there's *one* way of democracy. The second (and worse) is the wish to push countries that are simply not ready for it into this *one* form of democracy. You make it sound as if a two-party system (or even a one party system, ooh, fun...) is the one and only way to govern a country, but for example Germany and Switzerland have very nice multi-party systems. And even those countries' form of government is highly different from each other. It depends on scale and diversity of the people which have to be governed.


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## g/re/p (Jan 26, 2006)

adambyte said:
			
		

> Good: Barbara boxer



Barbara Boxer is good? WTF?
BB is almost as bad as hillary clinton!


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## ScottW (Jan 26, 2006)

Well, while there is much on the surface (or shall I say below the surface) like oil which, is the life and blood of the industrialized world... and aside from arguments over land (like in Israel) and the bad opinion of the USA from other sections of the world (which, everyone is entitled to their opinion) underneath it all... it is a spiritual war. Good vs Evil.

Im not talking good countries vs evil countries... but a spiritual war. The part we don't see and many refuse to recognize. Look at Iran's current President, his motivation is strictly spiritual. Afterall, he believes the Mahdi (sp??) is coming in the next 2 years. He wants to be the example country for all of Islam.

Why do they hate Israel and the USA? Well, one they associate with Zionism which, is rightfully so. The other they associate with Christianity and while as an American, I am seeing less and less "Christianity" in this country but we are also a ally of Israel, so association makes us one of "them".

Islam countries will expect nothing other than Islam world-wide rule. Any attempt at peace by a non Islam country or group of countries will never succeed.

While I like President Bush, I dislike many of his decisions. He claims to be a Christian, yet he insists that Israel give up it's land. He seems to be in his own little world sometimes... oblivious to scripture yet seems to recognize good character.

My guess is that things will come to a head prior to the end of March unless Iran backs down or in some way defuses Israel and USA tentions. The EU is anybody's guess. No matter what, 2006 on the topic of world stability is going to be a big earthquake.


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## markceltic (Jan 26, 2006)

markceltic said:
			
		

> Strange isn't it this region of the world called the "cradle of civilization".


     I've got a little more time to expand on this now so bear with me. I can't remember where I read it now but I recall how the author was essentially saying if things had gone in favour of the Middle East it would've been a world power long ago. And not by just the fact of the oil underneath it's feet either. I don't claim to be any expert in the history of the region but I do understand that technologically speaking ancient Persia & the Arabian Peninsula were well ahead of the then chaotic European conteninent.                `   So when & where did it go wrong? Why didn't the idea of democracy spring forth from here instead of being fostered by the Greeks leading to the Brits with the Magna Carta eventually to the Constitution by the Yanks? I'm sure someone here with a more expensive education will enlighten "us".


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## simbalala (Jan 26, 2006)

ScottW said:
			
		

> Im not talking good countries vs evil countries... but a spiritual war. The part we don't see and many refuse to recognize. Look at Iran's current President, his motivation is strictly spiritual. Afterall, he believes the Mahdi (sp??) is coming in the next 2 years. He wants to be the example country for all of Islam.



Who does this describe? Two guesses...



> They are vehemently against abortion, they resist progressive woman's rights. They view homosexuality as a crime against nature and God, some advocate the death penalty as an option for it.
> 
> Separation of Church and State is despised by these folks; they insist the nation is founded on the principles of their religion, and they work hard to bring that de facto theocracy about. They deplore strong language, gay characters, and sexual content on TV and in the media. And they ignore the Geneva Convention when it suits their ideological purposes, including provisions against torture or due process.
> 
> They're anti-stem cell research, pro-creationism, and generally distrustful of science. These folks are easily whipped into a state of frenzy with ideological manipulation to the point where they will commit violence, or at least tacitly endorse that violence is acceptable, if it advances their Divine agenda. They then take great pains to justify that violence, including unprovoked attack of civilian areas, under certain conditions, with convoluted theological gymnastics. They are almost to the man pro-death penalty ...





> While I like President Bush, I dislike many of his decisions. He claims to be a Christian, yet he insists that Israel give up it's land. He seems to be in his own little world sometimes... oblivious to scripture yet seems to recognize good character.



He knows his target market well enough, people who are afraid. Fear based politics.


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## ScottW (Jan 26, 2006)

I am at a lost of what your point is. Never did I say that the USA was not evil.


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## fryke (Jan 26, 2006)

ScottW said:
			
		

> Islam countries will expect nothing other than Islam world-wide rule. Any attempt at peace by a non Islam country or group of countries will never succeed.


Not all Islam countries see it that way. Not all muslims think that way. I agree that some (probably too many) do, but I think we should be *very* careful with the wording here. We always make sure to talk about the "Bush administration" and not the USA, so let's not drop all 'em countries into the same soup.


			
				ScottW said:
			
		

> He seems to be in his own little world sometimes...


Yep, and I think it's time someone told him it's *not* his bloody little world to dispose of.


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## spb (Jan 26, 2006)

fryke said:
			
		

> Well... The first error is the thinking that there's *one* way of democracy.



This isn't exactly what I was getting at.  

What I intended was to claim that we've come to this point because of a failure of all western governments over the past 100 years to cultivate a democratic movement in this region.  We collectively supported the Shah, Mr. Hussein, the Saudi Monarchy, and the Tailban.  

Since the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq we now have only one solution.  Yes, the way which this invasion occurred is ugly, but we can't let the rebuilding of Iraq fail.  If the west fails to leave strong and democratic governments in Iraq and Afghanistan both those living in the region, and those in the west, will suffer.  Regardless the resentment toward the Bush administration we have to hope for success.  



			
				fryke said:
			
		

> The second (and worse) is the wish to push countries that are simply not ready for it into this



Sorry, but I fundamentally can not believe that the Arabs aren't ready for democracy.  When Europe was living in the Christian Dark Ages it was Islam and the Arabs that carried the light of civilization and western philosophy.  

In recent years these people have suffered, but mostly because of our influence.  Had we (Germany and England) not interfered with the Arabs as part of the second world war and (US and USSR) during the cold war, there is no telling how different the world would look today.


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## simbalala (Jan 26, 2006)

ScottW said:
			
		

> I am at a lost of what your point is. Never did I say that the USA was not evil.



I figured you'd miss the point.

It's that nothing so much resembles fundamentalist Islam as fundamentalist right wing christian republicans. Depends on where you were born I guess. Sounds like you could go either way, it's just that you were born in the U.S.


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## g/re/p (Jan 26, 2006)

I have yet to hear about even one fundamentalist right wing christian republican suicide bomber - was there one and i missed it somehow?
I also must have missed the same right winger(s) declaring holy war on the islamists for refusing to convert to christianity.

Damn! I need to get out more.......


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## mdnky (Jan 26, 2006)

g/re/p said:
			
		

> I also must have missed the same right winger(s) declaring holy war on the islamists for refusing to convert to christianity.


European history books are full of information on once such occurance...it was called the Crusades.  There were side reasons for them, but it was a "holy war" more than anything else (at least in the church's mind).


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## mrsea (Jan 26, 2006)

Everybody spews. Everybody hates. Everybody fights. 
Nobody listens. Nobody learns.


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## mrsea (Jan 26, 2006)

"For as much as many HATE the Bush government, we've come to a point that the only hope is that the new Iraq and Afghanistan grow in strength and security and that there is a domino effect."

If the new democratically elected Palestinian government (Hamas) is any indication of what Bush policy can produce, you don't want that domino effect.


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## spb (Jan 27, 2006)

mrsea said:
			
		

> If the new democratically elected Palestinian government (Hamas) is any indication of what Bush policy can produce, you don't want that domino effect.



If it was a fair electron and it represents the general will of the majority then it was a good election.  

I would claim that Hamas is a legitimate democratic government because it meets both of these criteria.  Just because I don't like their beliefs doesn't mean that it isn't democratic.  

Iran has banned reform parties in the past thus it was not a legitimate democratic government.  This last presidential election they allowed reform parties, but the reformer blew it.  While Iran is a democratic government because fair elections were held, I do not believe that the current government as representing the majority view.  This will change in three years time, assuming that the elections are fair.  

Iraq and Afghanistan may elect parties during the next years that are hostile to the US, but in the long term, the world will be safer when the people in the region are allowed self-rule.  

I believe that Palestine is better now for having elected Hamas.  The PLO couldn't control Hamas because the PLO did not represent the people.  Now that Hamas is an elected they have to respond to the people and hence there is now a control over them that didn't exist before.  If there is a public turning away from violence (it is hard to wage was within a democracy as Pres. Bush is learning) Hamas must follow for fear of losing power.


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## simbalala (Jan 27, 2006)

spb said:
			
		

> Since the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq we now have only one solution.  Yes, the way which this invasion occurred is ugly, but we can't let the rebuilding of Iraq fail.  If the west fails to leave strong and democratic governments in Iraq and Afghanistan both those living in the region, and those in the west, will suffer.  Regardless the resentment toward the Bush administration we have to hope for success.


Success like this?



> Q & A: Our Omnipotent President
> 
> Q. Can the president spy on Americans without a warrant?
> A. The president has to spy on Americans without a warrant! We're at war, and the president's gotta defend America, and he's not gonna wait for a permission slip from a judge or a senator or America to do it!
> ...


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## Gig' (Jan 27, 2006)

Some very interesting points made especially simbalala Q&A  but 

I still believe that we should sweep in front of our own door before looking at the neighbors' dirt and that war is not an answer for peace. 

The lyrics of the homonymous songs by you guess who are IMO self explanatory


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## Rhisiart (Jan 27, 2006)

What real difference is there between religious extremists and Nazis? None. Didn't the recent Iranian President publicly deny that the Holocaust took place? 

And its not confined to one particular religion. At Yad Vashem* (the Holocaust memorial in Israel) numerous snide references link the Arabs with Nazis during WWII. In fact it was just one foolish Arab Mayor who did this, not the entire Arab people! This type of extrapolation is just plain propaganda.

And whilst we are on the subject, what about all those Hindu extremists slaughtering Muslims in India?

Im all for religion when one sticks to the Holy script (whatever book you follow), but once you start corrupting the Bible, Talmud or Koran to suit your political beliefs, youre on the road to hell boyo.

* The childrens memorial at Yad Vashem is heartbreaking.


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## fryke (Jan 27, 2006)

And it's not restricted to countries _outside_ the USA, either, rhisiart. Mr. Bush also says things like he's following God's will etc. when attacking countries.


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## Rhisiart (Jan 27, 2006)

Yes, he does. Frightening.


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