# Apple's deception



## Romendo (Aug 27, 2003)

So I have been reading about the new G5 1.6 that are showing up here and there. Some guys convinced himself and seven others to cancel their dual G5 orders because the posted scores in some benchmarks don't really justify investing in those computers. He blames Apple because they constantly deceive people with their advertisements.

Add to that that today I found out that the ATI Radeon 9800 Pro in the new PowerMacs don't run at AGP 8x. Go take a look at Apple's web site and you see the banner "AGP 8x" all over the place. Even in the specification section they mention AGP 8x. Sure, they never mention that the graphics cards are not using AGP 8x. However, it is very deceiving. You'd think that a top-of-the-line graphics card in the year 2003 would be able to run at 8x - especially when the computer and card are brand-new.

What do you think about this? I am wondering if this hurts Apple or if people are a) ignorant or b) just don't care or know.

*shrug*

Romendo


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## Langley (Aug 27, 2003)

How do you know that the G5's don't run 8x AGP?  Show me the info on that please.


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## THEMACER (Aug 27, 2003)

I think he means that the G5 can run at 8x but the grahpic card its self cant.


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## Veljo (Aug 27, 2003)

I agree that it can be deceiving, but I clearly knew that it wouldn't run at 8x. This exact same video card is also available for PC, and as PC's don't have 8x AGP yet, I put 1 and 1 together. Sure, it can be deceiving, but it doesn't say anywhere that it IS running at 8x. You  just assumed it did.


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## Arden (Aug 27, 2003)

That guy was not thinking clearly to make 8 people cancel their orders.  Apple claims to have the most powerful PC in the world, and they do: the dual G5 running at a lightning 2 Ghz.  Of course the 1.6 Ghz are not the most powerful computer in the world, but that shouldn't stop anybody from buying one unless they want the higher-end features of the 1.8 and 2 Ghz models.  The 1.6 is the low-end professional model, not the screamin' red devil.  It may not beat every PC in benchmarks, but it's not supposed to, and are you going to make a decision based only on benchmarks, but on real-world tests as well?


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## voice- (Aug 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Veljo _
> *This exact same video card is also available for PC, and as PC's don't have 8x AGP yet, I put 1 and 1 together.*


Here's the first mobo I could find
http://www.komplett.co.uk/k/ki.asp?action=info&p=26752&t=845&l=2&AvdID=1&CatID=10&GrpID=5&s=pl

Notice that it's a PC mobo and it uses AGP 8x

I failed to find the exact same video card for PC, I only found ATi Radeon 9800 Pro, which also has AGP 8x

Doesn't seem too obvious to me...


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## hulkaros (Aug 28, 2003)

Some people will never learn... Even the "low" G5 1.6 GHz can beat the daylights of a Dual G4/1.42 in most computing scenarios and people still complaining?  Most probably instead of doing REAL work or REAL play they are actually benchmarking computers 

I have customers that produce DVD material, manage networks, doing DTP, DV, etc. with "crappy" machines such as PowerMacs G4/867MHz... But guess what? They don't care about benchmarks! They care if their Macs can work night and day with no problems at all, no matter how hard they push their Macs day after day... Damn, some of our customers they have their Macs running 24/7 with no probs 

Most of those Pros when I discuss with them about the G5, ANY G5, they drool all over the place  Nah! What do they know?


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## Arden (Aug 28, 2003)

Right-o!

I'd rather have a 1.8 Ghz G5 than a 1.6, but I'd gleefully jump at the chance to obtain _any_ G5.


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## Captain Code (Aug 28, 2003)

Where does it say that the Radeon 9800 PRO doesn't run at 8x in the G5?  
Yes, PCs do have, and have had for a while, AGP 8x, although a lot of times there's not much noticable difference compared to 4x.

The 9800 is an 8x and the G5's AGP slot is 8x so the card should run at 8x.  The only reason I can think of is that the drivers that ATI supplies for the card(or does Apple write them?) don't support the 8x mode.

Without any proof, this post does seem like trolling.


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## Romendo (Aug 28, 2003)

I guess "troll" should be a candidate for the "Word of the Millennium" award. It is easy to find "proof" of what I said. Just go to ATI's web site and check out the feature list. You'd think they know what they are talking about.

I got a Radeon 9800 for my wife. It supports 8x AGP. And so does the Dell system I bought for her.

Nowhere on Apple's site it does say that the Mac Edition of the Radeon 9800 Pro does not have 8x but they sure advertise for their super-fast 8x bus AND list the Radeon just one or two lines below. Just because you dump a card in an 8x slot does not mean it will run at that speed.

As I said, they did not lie - but I find it too deceiving. And that was the topic of my post. It has happened many times before. The worst, of course, is the "world's fastest computer" claim for a machine that didn't even exist and won't ship for quite a while over here.

So far I haven't seen a benchmark where the G5 1.6 could beat the dual G4 1.42. The only benchmark so far actually beats it. Take a look at SpyMac or Ars Technica.

Anyway, I have been waiting for those G5s for ages and now that they are here - well, not really - Apple is still doing the old decepion tricks, which really annoy me. I was just wondering what other people thought and certainly wasn't out for posting another troll post.


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## Captain Code (Aug 28, 2003)

I didn't say your post was trolling, just that without proof, stating Apple is deceiving everyone doesn't seem very believable.

From ATI's site that you linked to


> ...and support for the AGP 4X standard...



It's not Apple that's limiting the speed of the card, it's ATI.  

I'd guess the reason for this is because when the Radeon 9800 Mac version came out, all Powermacs being sold had 4x AGP.

I don't think that Apple's site is deceiving at all. 
Do they have an 8x AGP slot: Yes
Does the Radeon 9800 work in it: Yes
When you are buying the system, the specs of the card are easy to find by goint to the ATI website.


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## Lycander (Aug 28, 2003)

I fail to see why AGP 8x is even an issue. All it does is increase bandwidth, for what? Answer: Textures. That means gamers will appreciate 8x if it is in fact enabled.

If you're a professional and buying a G5 system, so what if it doesn't have AGP 8x. Even 3D modelers/animators work with textures off for the most part. So really it's only gamers that crave that bandwidth. I do realize that a lot of people have high hopes for the G5 system being a monster gaming machine, but lot at it this way: if you are serious about gaming then you'd get the 128MB video cards and that's plenty of texture memory that it won't bother the bandwidth as much.


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## Arden (Aug 28, 2003)

I fail to see the deception in Apple's advertising.  They have the worlds fastest personal computer on the market, the 2 Ghz dual G4.  No, the 1.6 is not the fastest computer in the world and no, it may not beat the dual 1.42 in benchmark tests... but benchmarks aren't what count!  It's real-world tests!  If I compared a dual 1.42 Ghz G4 to a 1.6 Ghz G5 with benchmarks and real-world tests, and the G4 won for benchmarks but the G5 won for the real-world tests, which would you rather have?


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## hulkaros (Aug 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Romendo _
> *So I have been reading about the new G5 1.6 that are showing up here and there. Some guys convinced himself and seven others to cancel their dual G5 orders because the posted scores in some benchmarks don't really justify investing in those computers. He blames Apple because they constantly deceive people with their advertisements.
> 
> Add to that that today I found out that the ATI Radeon 9800 Pro in the new PowerMacs don't run at AGP 8x. Go take a look at Apple's web site and you see the banner "AGP 8x" all over the place. Even in the specification section they mention AGP 8x. Sure, they never mention that the graphics cards are not using AGP 8x. However, it is very deceiving. You'd think that a top-of-the-line graphics card in the year 2003 would be able to run at 8x - especially when the computer and card are brand-new.
> ...



I don't know if your english are THAT bad (mine clearly are) but clearly Apple says here:
http://www.apple.com/powermac/graphics.html
at the bottom that Radeon 9800 Pro *IS* AGP 8x...

Quote from there:
"The ATI Radeon 9800 Pros SMARTSHADER 2.1 rewrites the rules for realism with its 128-bit floating-point color precision, enabling hyper-realistic imagery to be displayed with billions of color variations. And with its eight parallel rendering pipelines, a 256-bit wide memory interface and *support for the AGP 8X standard*, this card delivers tremendous performance at the highest resolutions and detail settings."

To me you seem to confuse the Apple (or if you prefer the OEM) version of 9800 with the one ATI provides for the retail... Answer this to yourself: If ATI had to make ONLY one version of 9800 for the Mac platform would they like it to be an AGP 8x only version OR an AGP 2x/4x where they can sell loads more (for use with "older" Macs)? 

You may want to read here for more on the subject:
http://www.barefeats.com/rad9800.html

Quote from there:
"Apple is offering the highly regarded Radeon 9800 as a BTO option for the G5 Power Mac. However, it's designed for the *G5's 8X Pro AGP slot*. What about the rest of us poor devils with 2X or 4X AGP slots? Never fear. The retail version of the Radeon 9800 Pro  Mac Edition (4X/2X AGP) is now shipping."

If you read slow and carefuly you will actually see that the one who is deceiving you is YOU and YOU alone ::ha::

Give Apple a break and let other buy their G5s...


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## Romendo (Aug 29, 2003)

Maybe deception is not the right word, confusion and stupidity might be it, then. Anyway, having to buy a whole new G5 in order to get a Radeon 9800 Pro at 8x is a little bit too much.


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## hulkaros (Aug 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Romendo _
> *Maybe deception is not the right word, confusion and stupidity might be it, then. Anyway, having to buy a whole new G5 in order to get a Radeon 9800 Pro at 8x is a little bit too much. *



But in which other Mac CAN you use the power of AGP 8x if it isn't a G5? I don't know if you can understand it but in order to use an AGP 8x card (even if it was/is/will be possible) in current G4 PowerMacs you will earn nothing in doing so because the 8x card will default in 4x or 2x (depending on the PowerMac model) 

If you mean for future G5 customers I think that by the time they will need to install 9800 8x, newer, better AGP 8x cards will be around... 

As for confusion and stupidity maybe if people would read first THEN complain, things would be much more different 

In any case I hope that you will get a G5 and wish you the Dual G5 model with 9800 in


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## fryke (Aug 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Romendo _
> *Maybe deception is not the right word, confusion and stupidity might be it, then. Anyway, having to buy a whole new G5 in order to get a Radeon 9800 Pro at 8x is a little bit too much. *



Huh?! Now either you're really not getting it, or you ARE trolling. Of COURSE you can get this card some way or other. And put it WHERE? The only Mac supporting 8x AGP _IS_ the PowerMac G5. It makes no sense to make the card available to other buyers (Mac users), as long as there is no other Mac supporting the thing. You can get the 2x/4x version which makes sense, because that's what it's going to run at in an older (and newer) G4, anyway.

So... This whole thread seems quite useless for me, unless you count the proof that the G5 indeed runs the 8x AGP card at 8x as useful. But then again, why would we doubt that? Ah, yes, because of threads like this... FUD...

Apple sells a G5 with 8x AGP slot.
Apple offers a Radeon 9800 Pro 8x for it.
It runs at 8x.
Where's the problem?


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## Romendo (Aug 29, 2003)

Well, if you tried to open your mind a little bit instead of accusing me of trolling and FUDding then you might be able to understand where I wanted to go with this discussion.

I was at a local Apple dealer today since he got his first - and so far only - G5 1.6. It will take quite some time until I could get the computer I wanted. His most optimistic guess was "end of September" similar to what we see now with "end of August" meaning that it won't be here until mid-October. As a poster called it on another board: Apple is deceiving people.


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## hulkaros (Aug 29, 2003)

Me too, I'm sure 100% that someone is deceiving people... That's you Romendo!


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## Arden (Aug 29, 2003)

Romendo, please remember that Apple may still have kinks to work out of the Powermac before they can ship it.  Any number of issues may lead to delays in shipping, whether to resellers or to straight to you.  Apple is not trying to deceive you by saying, "They'll be there in September, 100% guaranteed" and then ship them in December just to spite you.  Their planned shipping dates are usually their best guess, unless they've been holding off shipping for a specific reason.


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## nb3004 (Aug 30, 2003)

romendo you havent bought many mac s from apple right when they came out, apple always has a huge demand for there latest greatest thing that they can never meet, it was the same thing with my original imac and it will probably be the same with the the 15 inch powerbook when that comes out too


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## fryke (Aug 31, 2003)

romendo: You start off with a thesis. Apple's deceiving people. You give some (strange) info. When people prove you wrong, you start dodging your original info and put new things out. The theme stays the same. You say that Apple's deceiving people. Well, even if you'd be right in some cases - which you don't seem to be - it's still quite easily put. That's called ADVERTISING.


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## Jason (Aug 31, 2003)

obviously with "end of september" its an estimate. if they gave a specific date, then it would be possibly deception... but even then, like previously stated, there are manufacturing setbacks etc that may cause delays.

unless apple says "you will all have g5's in your hands on sept 25, guaranteed." its not really deception IMHO


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## Arden (Sep 2, 2003)

The G5 will be at 3 Ghz by Sept. 2004, guaranteed.  If not, Apple deceived us.


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## hulkaros (Sep 2, 2003)

Arden I like your "Click here to troubleshoot OS X" part of your signature  It reminds me the signature of someone else that I know 

As for Apple: Bad Apple! Bad company! Bad Apple!


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## Arden (Sep 3, 2003)

Yeah, I forgot to add the credit it now has when I put it in there.  Again, my thanks.


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## hulkaros (Sep 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arden _
> *Yeah, I forgot to add the credit it now has when I put it in there.  Again, my thanks. *



No problem! You are most welcome...


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## MDLarson (Sep 4, 2003)

Well, page 2 pretty much summed up what I was thinking...  Nothing will *ever* be perfect here on earth (except for Jesus  ).  Get used to it.

Take it from me, the biggest perfectionist I know.  I am constantly frustrated by the most minor of details.  I get mad at Hewlett-Packard for lower-casing ALL of their words.  Just... don't expect perfection when it's not possible.  Steve isn't all-powerful afterall...

"Perfection is the mortal enemy of 'good enough' "


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## nb3004 (Sep 4, 2003)

> Steve isn't all-powerful afterall...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Arden (Sep 4, 2003)

Nick, you forgot the /.


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## mindbend (Sep 5, 2003)

I actually agree with Romendo. [Romendo, remember that we Mac people are very touchy, knee jerky and have incredible abilities to deny reality  ]. In fact, the main reason why I did not order a G5 was because I wanted all the information to settle first. I made that mistake with the G4, which was completely overhyped and overrated (Altivec, shmaltivec). But don't let me get off on a tangent.

Apple are masters of hype and I have swallowed much Koolaid in my day. I have every intention of going G5, but only if it truly delivers. (I suspect it will deliver quite nicely BTW. My own insider testers put the G5 1.6 on par with a DP 1.4...not bad).

As for Romendo's point, I find the AGP 8x completely misleading in the same kind of way that the DDR RAM thing was with the last batch of G4s. [Everyone remember that? Anyone want to defend Apple on that one?] If Apple is touting it as a feature/benefit, then it should actually have a benefit. DDR RAM had no benefit. Likewise, AGP 8x appears to have little or no benefit (currently). [Kind of like how FW800 has very little benefit right now for the average user] Whether or not that's ATI's fault or not doesn't matter. The simpe fact is that I, as a customer, am using information that Apple is giving me to make a purchsing decision. It is a reasonable assumption for a consumer that if a feature such as 8x is touted, then the benefits of 8x should be delivered. Nowhere (to my knowledge) does Apple say "Now with AGP 8x, perfect for when 8x cards actually catch up to our infrastructure."

I admit, I am not thoroughly up to speed on all the little details, so I will gladly admit to being wrong if I am, but after doing a tiny bit of research on ATI's site:

http://mirror.ati.com/products/radeon9800/radeon9800prome/specs.html

System Requirements 
Mac® OS X 10.2.5 or later 
AGP 4x or 2x capable Macintosh® 

There is no mention of 8x support. Sure, the card will run in an 8x slot, but that's not the point. The point is whether there is any benefit to doing so. In other words, if the G5 was exactly the same, but just had a 4x AGP slot instead of the 8x, would it [the 9800] run the same. Based on this information, the answer is that indeed it would run the same, thus no benefit and Romendo has a valid point. Can someone point me to where ATI says the 9800 takes full advantage of 8x technology? I'm not being sarcastic, I'd just like to see it. Barefeats speculates so, but they don't provide a source.

Misleading information is utterly rampant in advertising. Notice how a lot of things are now Megabits instead of Megabytes cuz it sounds like more? Hard drive speeds have long been way overstated (theoretical bandwidths barely achievable in the most perfect of situations), printer speeds based on absurdly small coverage, cartridge lifespans based on minimal coverage, the list goes on and on. This 8x may just be another example.

Having said that, clearly having 8x is better than not having it. Presumably somebody will make a card that REALLY takes advantage of it. 

FWIW-I run an ad agency and have worked with some of the best ad gurus on the planet. I've got a bit of a POV when it comes to such things. 

I don't pretend to be an expert on this particular technology, but I definitely think Romendo has a point, and is not trolling. I guess I can't say I'm surprised by the reactions, however.


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## Captain Code (Sep 5, 2003)

Seems like you missed reading some of the posts mindbend.  The retail version of the Radeon 9800, is 2/4x AGP, BUT, the one that comes with the G5 IS 8X AGP.  

The reason that the retail one is 4x max is because there weren't any Macs that had 8x ports, so why would they make one?  Now there is, and you can buy the 8x version with your G5.

Take a look here and read near the bottom:


> ...a 256-bit wide memory interface and support for the AGP 8X standard...


That is talking about the Radeon 9800 Pro.  

I believe the DDR RAM did bring some benefit, but it was not as much as it could have been, had they upped the bus speed of the motherboard.


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## mindbend (Sep 5, 2003)

Thanks for the info. [Beavis voice] Um, that like changes things and stuff. If it does actually provide a significant benefit (remains to be seen IMHO), then ignore my 8X comments, cuz like I didn't know what I was talking about and stuff. I stand by the remainder of my post.


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## hulkaros (Sep 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by mindbend _
> *Thanks for the info. [Beavis voice] Um, that like changes things and stuff. If it does actually provide a significant benefit (remains to be seen IMHO), then ignore my 8X comments, cuz like I didn't know what I was talking about and stuff. I stand by the remainder of my post. *



Just a piece from your previous post:
"I actually agree with Romendo. [ Romendo, remember that we Mac people are very touchy, knee jerky and have incredible abilities to deny reality  ]"

So, were you describing yourself and Romendo to us? 

At least you accepted the fact that you didn't know what you were talking about UNLIKE Romendo...


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## RacerX (Sep 6, 2003)

I have to ask the question: *What did you guys do when Apple started shipping AGP slots?*

The reason I ask is that at the time the AGP G4 had an ATI Rage 128 installed, but ATI was only retailing PCI versions of the ATI Rage 128 card for Macs. Buy the argument of some people here I would have to think that you thought Apple was selling ATI Rage 128 PCI cards in their AGP enabled Macs.

Lets make this perfectly clear for everyone, if you think you are getting a retail version of an ATI card in the G5 then you have no idea of the relationship between ATI and Apple. They are *not* the same card. The card that comes with the G5 is a specially made part for Apple. Even when ATI starts selling ATI Radeon 9800 Pro 8x AGP cards for the Mac to the public, there aren't going to be the _same_ as the OEM part that Apple installed.

And as has already been pointed out, what would be the reason for ATI to make available the 8x version for Macs that don't have 8x slots? More important, Apple has a deal with ATI right now *NOT* to sell the 8x version to the public (it would cut in on the build-to-order option offered by Apple). Don't expect to see a retail 9800 in an 8x version until long after Apple is shipping them as standard equipment.

*Apple Computer does not put their systems together with parts off the shelves of your local computer store.*

This thread really is just trolling and FUD. You should all know better by now... complaining about the price of Macs and all.


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## fryke (Sep 6, 2003)

Don't forget that Panther will cost 129$, .mac costs 99$ and that Intel/AMD is far better than a "Mac processor". ;-) Moreover, Apple will switch to X86 anyway. Oh, and yes: Apple is deceiving us. 

(Can someone close this thread, please? The original subject has long been solved.)


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