# Should I stay or leave? (trolls or no trolls?)



## edX (Aug 15, 2002)

it is with deep regret that i make this post. in light of the recent increase of trolling and flaming and bickering repetitvely, i have reached the point where moderating is no longer tolerable for me. it takes more time than i should be spending. it leaves me feeling drained and depressed with little energy for posts of my own. (and some of you know that is very out of character for me  )

so what i am asking the members of this community is this - should i go or should the trolls? i just can't handle the responsiblity of following a handful of pissy whiners around the site all day, every day.  

i am not talking about those of you who have honest disagreements nor those of you make a negative comment where it is appropriate and then let it be. Most of you know i enjoy a good debate as much as the next person. i am talking about the trolls who have nothing new to say and say it over and over. the ones whose posts this week read just like the ones last week and the week before. the ones that bash mac users for enjoying their computers. the ones who think a day of bitching and flaming is a fun way to spend their otherwise dull day. I know who they are. you know who they are. i think most of them know who they are. 

I realized how badly this has been getting to me when the site was closed. one side of me missed the site and said "how could Scott do that?" And the other side jumped for joy that i got a whole day without having to read the drivel that has dominated this forum lately.

so you decide. at the risk of being called fascist and controlling, should we get tougher on trolls or should i step down and let someone else have to face this? and by tougher, i mean suspend or ban them from the site altogether. i spend way too much time editing their posts and arguing in pm's with these people as it is. because i believe in free speech, i have given these people friendly warnings when they deserved official ones. perhaps i have created some of this myself by not being more tight fisted in the beginning with them since i value diversity and try to give everyone a chance. and while they have learned to abide by the technical aspects of the policy here, they have never cared to abide by its spirit.

to be clear i am not talking about my leaving the site out of protest about anything. i will still be around. i just don't want to waste my time and mental health arguing fine lines with people who are (in my perception) just trying to stir things up for their own amusement.

so speak up now or live with the decision of those who do.


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## uoba (Aug 15, 2002)

Stay Ed, but De-Moderate yourself


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## azosx (Aug 15, 2002)

I think you take your job as moderator a little too seriously and to the extreme Ed.  I know a lot goes on in the background as you mentioned with PMs and such that we don't realize but based on my dealings with you, I honestly feel you are way too uptight, biased and unjust.  Maybe that just comes with being the heavy for too long.

It's no fun being the whistle blower and perhaps it's just not the job for you.  I certainly wouldn't want to be the one cracking down on people who use the word sh*t all day.

I think perhaps you are too quick to pass judgement and jump to conclusions.  For example, you gave me a warning for implying a user "wasn't thinking."  What the hell was that honestly about?  The discussion never turned into a flame war but you were there chastising me before I guess you thought it would?  Maybe you should backoff and see where discussions go before cracking down on the first sign of "trouble."

Anyway, I know you think I have it out for you but that's not the case.  If a vote against you comes up, know it wasn't from me.  Being a moderator I'm sure you can probably see that for yourself though.

You're holding on too tight Maverick...You've lost the edge.


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## edX (Aug 15, 2002)

uoba - that would be the ed goes option. you can't get entirely rid of me that easily.


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## uoba (Aug 15, 2002)

Oops, sorry... okay, then go Ed, run free... (look at him run, and who said he couldn't be released back into the community)


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## voice- (Aug 15, 2002)

I see this as a troubleshooting site with a lot of great posters. I don't know why I'd wanna discuss the status quo of my Mac's hardware vey day, and hearing the same arguments all the time...I say the troll go and Ed stays...


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## Sighter (Aug 15, 2002)

Bottom line, we need our moderators, I like my comfort
We dont need the trolls...

Vote:
moderators = 1
Trolls = 0

No more questions?

Trolls go.

BTW: Been on the web for a long time and this is the first Forum I do participate
in because of all the relevant and interesting post from a lot of good participants.
I get fun in here as well as good ressources.. Sorry for my saying but F%$#K
those who are just here for passing time, I am here to learn and share.

-Sighter


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## ksv (Aug 15, 2002)

_**silently says goodbye and walks over to  macfora.com**_


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## ulrik (Aug 15, 2002)

the problem with this is: what to do against trolls. ban them when they begin to troll?

moderate their posts?

While it would solve the problem, it could lead to new problems. 

I have seen similar situations on other forums, and honestly, it always had an impact on the whole community. When you let them troll as they want, they are ruining the community.
when you moderate them, you run the risk of "over-moderating". It happens. When you start moderating posts, you will do errors, like everybody of us does errors, which again can lead to even more flame wars.

It's a very hard decission and it needs a good moderator to master such a situation. While I believe that you are a great moderator, Ed, if you are at the point that you ask yourself and the community if you should stay or not, I think you are at a point where you should "step away" from it, that's why I voted "Ed goes", but I do not mean permanently. Maybe for a week, so you get some  distance again. So that you don't have to visit the forum every evening just to read more and more trolls messages. In such a situation, you can quickly loose fun on the forum and see it as a something which causes you trouble.

I'd say take two or three days off of the forum,  take some deep breaths and then come back and see if it is actually that bad or if it was just "too much" for you as a moderator in the past.

Such breaks sometimes work wonder.

Then again, this is just my opinion.

On the long run, I'd say stay, the forum needs good moderators, but not because we want you to stay but because you want to stay.

After all it's you freetime you are spending to moderate the forum, so it should be you who wants to be on this forum, you should still have fun in beeing a moderator.


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## whitesaint (Aug 15, 2002)

I did not have the time to read any of this thread, but I just wanna say, what the Admin did yesterday really !@#$ed me off.  I did not do anything against Apple, and yet i got punished.  Me and the other 8000 members of this forum...


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## squidbite (Aug 15, 2002)

I guess I don't see the big dilemma here. If asosx was ever right about anything, it's that you guys take yourselves way too seriously.

If someone is going to troll here, it's been my experience that multiple posters will jump on his/her case.  Why anyone feels singularly responsible for keeping the peace or editing posts (other than for obscenities) is beyond me.

My advice: either loosen up or do everyone a favor and let it go.  This place is getting downright morbid, and not because of the trolling - the admin decisions and conclusions drawn in the last two days are enough to turn me off for a good long time.

I pride myself, not only as a Mac user, but as a human, on my objectivity.  A holier-than-thou admin attitude is no better than an obnoxious troll's spewings.  While I usually dislike Mac zealots who will blissfully deny any Apple shortcomings and blindly bash Windows just for the sport of it, I have tolerated it more than usual because I tend toward that view (just not so extreme) and given the community/purpose of this site.  But it's all gotten way out of hand.

Maybe we should all just be frequenting Windows sites and lobbing a few grenades in there the way trolls here see fit to do.


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## earthshine (Aug 15, 2002)

This is a contentious time. I've only been a member of this site for around 3+ hours now, but I do follow a whole bunch of Mac websites. And the general zeitgeist of Mac-land hasn't a terribly good vibe to it right now. Some people are pissed off, well and truly. One might venture that there are significant splits in the Mac community, such as it is.

These will be resolved and we can all go back to discussing prefpanes and the like.

In the meantime, I'm sure plenty of people will give you good reasons (based on more site-specific stuff) to keep you in the mix.

eshine&eshine


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## Shifting (Aug 15, 2002)

Ed, i think you should stay.

trolls will be trolls.  they come and go like that.  it's the same at any forum i've ever spent time at. now we've had our run-ins in the past, but i hope you know that i'm not a troll, just a guy that disagrees with the popular posters sometimes.

anyways, i repeat, you should stay.  moderate them if you have to.  i'd suggest (i've done some mod work elsewhere in the past) that you warn them first, via PM.  if that does no good, resort to  banning.  editing posts just doesn't look good.  it makes a board look like it's run by the gestapo.  and we don't want that here, right? :waits for a chorus of amen's:

you're a good guy Ed, and you do a good job here.  i'm sad to see you considering leaving your duties over this.  i think you're taking things a bit too far.  just re-think your job a bit, but please don't leave.  you're good to us, and we need a nice, level-headed mod like you.


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## serpicolugnut (Aug 15, 2002)

Look, if the long time Apple buying public (read:ME) getting upset and discouraged by seriously lackluster releases counts as being a "troll", then by all means get out while you still have your sanity.

But I don't see many trolls here. Most of what I see are loyal Apple lovers who are vocal when their favorite computer company delivers a computer way below expectations, and months later than when it should have debuted (hell, the 1.25ghz DP won't even ship until the end of Sept. at the earliest!).

It's called SPEAKING ONES MIND, and I thought it was the purpose of a forum to allow that to happen, whether it be praise or criticism.

I must admit, that after the Admin shut down for the 24 hours that I was really peeved as well. I'm teetering on the edge of spending my time in another forum, where the admin won't act like a 5 year old when the level of criticism reaches a certain level, and take his toys (this forum) and go home.

I could say more, but I've already said it on my site Mac OS Xcentric .


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## iMan (Aug 15, 2002)

I want Ed to stay... But if this work takes up to much time and when it doesn't feel rewarding then I can't blame him for wanting to resign.

I've been on this forum for some time now, I visit regularly but I don't post if I don't really have some thing to say. In my opinion there's to much nonsense around, more so now then it was. I feel like there's not much substance left in the forum. There's a lot of flaming, stupid remarks etc going on. I wish that people would just post when they have something to say. There is places on this forum for 'chatting' and that's where you can do that. I'd like to see the tech forums with less meaningless blabber.

And about Ed, in my opinion he's a good moderator, he's fair and have good judgment as far as I have seen. It's always hard to play the police role and controlling others, try to figure out where to draw the line. So cut him some slack and give him some appreciation for the work he does on his own free time.

And while I'm at it, Cut apple some slack too. They have given us some great things, appreciate that and stop whining. They can't reinvent the wheel every time.

For a better and more pleasant macosx.com

Viktor

note.
maybe it would be good with moderators taking turns 'moderating' a week each, like that maybe the moderators won't get burned out so fast, just a thought.


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## AdmiralAK (Aug 15, 2002)

trolls have not place on ANY bbs, so having a no troll policy is like a no brainer


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## serpicolugnut (Aug 15, 2002)

> And while I'm at it, Cut apple some slack too. They have given us some great things, appreciate that and stop whining. They can't reinvent the wheel every time.



I don't think anybody here who is disappointed with the latest desktops expects Apple to "reinvent the wheel" for each release. Pro users have a legitimate beef. Apple finally releases desktops with DDR SDRAM, and it's implemented in a half arsed way. Couple this with CPU speeds that below what just about everybody expected, and throw in a real ugly front for the new machine, and you've got legitimate complaints. Even the graphics cards aren't of pro level yet - and they still use the AGP4x bus.

Users of Apple's consumer line don't seem to understand the dilema the pro users are in. Most of us love Apple, it's OS (especially 10.2), and it's hardware/software synergy. But Pro users need their machine to MAKE MONEY. If I have a Lightwave scene that I render, and it takes 30-45 secs. longer on the Mac, and you are constantly rendering all day long, it starts to become painfully obvious that a machine you paid twice as much for isn't providing you with 2x the productivity. 

This is an abstract example, but it's a valid one. Pro users need the latest and greatest to stay ahead of their competition. I bought a G4.800/DP last year. I was ready to buy a 1.4ghz machine this year if one was available. I am prepared to spend $$$ on the latest hardware if it will help me make $$$. But this iternation of the Pro line does not make financial sense for me to purchase. So now I have to wait for the next revision, which could come another 8 months from now, if Apple keeps it's current Pro upgrade schedule. 

With this, I have to make choices - do I continue to wait for Apple to deliver a Pro machine worthy of my money, or do I throw together a Wintel box for my needs.

Now, temper this with some praise for Apple. On the consumer front, they are firing on all cylinders. The iApps are amazing. OS X is finally what everybody expected the next gen OS to be. The iBooks and iMacs are very cool machines.

But being a Pro user, I'm seriously disappointed. I'm no troll. I'm no pollyanna either. Apple has probably gotten more money from me in the last year than most of you over the last 10 years, so I'm secure in knowing where I stand. But I'm not gonna whistle past the graveyard, either...


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## bubbajim (Aug 15, 2002)

Ed--> Good.

Trolls--> Bad.

Well that sums it up.  **lightly pressing trapdoor button**

Bye Bye Trolls.. back to the place you came from.


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## ElDiabloConCaca (Aug 15, 2002)

I'd like to see Ed stay.  His wit and intelligence pleasantly surprise me day to day, even if we've disagreed in the past.

I understand being a Moderator is a tough and thankless job sometimes, but it's a responsibility, and I think that when times get rough or things don't go the way you'd like to see them go, jumping ship isn't the best solution.  Life is tough, and trolls are a fact of life.  The Mac community has devoted followers, a few very devout users, some cultish-types, some indifferent types, and then the trolls... and the trolls outnumber our meager numbers one-hundred fold.  It's a shame they found their way to this forum, but they're here, and like it or not, they provide an alternate viewpoint for many of us who are more religious in our devotion to Apple than realistically bound.

Apple has it's faults, and even though the trolls don't present their viewpoints in a very productive manner, they are opinions and viewpoints that must be taken in to consideration nonetheless...

I've been a member of this forum for over a year and have had my share of good times, bad times, and flat-out viscious disagreements.  I would hate to see the people that I've come to know on this forum begin to leave -- we've already had a couple leave, and their input is missed at least by this forum member.

Don't go, Ed.  Stick out the storm.  Don't ban trolls -- they are good for something, and that's provising a differing point of view when we get TOO fanatical about Apple and they also incite us to dig a little deeper and think a little harder about what we write.


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## chemistry_geek (Aug 15, 2002)

Ed,

Knowing that you are in graduate school, I don't know how you have time for your studies and time for moderating this site.  Unless your one of those people who can spend little time reading and studying and retain and comprehend everything in one fell swoop, the task looks like a path to burnout.  I've noticed that when I come around in the morning and the evening, your moderating is usually done throughout much of the day.  I simply don't know how you do it.  Unless this moderating is part of your reasearch project in psychology, I think it would be in your best interest to pass the moderating along to someone else for a while, possibly permanently.  Your health and success in grad school aren't worth risking.

As for the trolls, they know who they are, they are fully cognizant of their intentions and actions, and should be banned from the site without warning.  Given the goals of this site, a community of Macintosh members helping one another, we don't need and should not tolerate "THEIR KIND" here.  This may seem a little extreme, but we don't need a bunch people arguing and stirring up ill feelings just for the goal of pissing-off the community.  As I mentioned before, these people know what they are doing, and have intentions and well thought out plans for pushing other members buttons.  I think the problem should be nipped in the bud, and dealt with swiftly and sternly.  In this day and age, everyone knows or has a pretty good idea of netiquette.  TROLLS ARE NOT WELCOME HERE.

Your brother,


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## lethe (Aug 15, 2002)

I would hate to see Ed go.  He is very moderate and can keep the most incendiary threads from going haywire, responds to everyones posts, keeps old favorites alive in perpetuam, and defuses those really tense hostile arguments.

He is a good moderator.  We need him.

However, i am not ready to say get rid of the trolls.  If anything, i would like this board to become less controlling, less military, with more freedom.  

So both choices are unacceptable to me.  i do not vote.  it may be a moot question for me soon.  we ll see.


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## hulkaros (Aug 15, 2002)

The problem with the REAL trolls isn't that they give us unbiased opinions and/or let us see the mistakes we make by supporting Apple... This is false! If one hates Apple he just posts ONCE and only ONCE his opinion (in the correct forum too) and not repeat post after post the same things:
1.Apple sucks
2.Apple's supporters suck
3.Apple's hardware/software sucks
4.Wintel/Amd rocks
5.Linux rocks
6.Repeat the above

Wither the trolls are correct or not about the things they post, they simply DON'T belong anywhere near the www.macosx.com because they are repeating the brainwashing over and over! And you know what? 99% of their opinions are biased too... They are just coming from the Dark Side of the Force...

As for Apple supporters having bad feelings/opinions about the company they love the most, that's fine as long as they keep it real: If one doesn't like Ferrari's cars, does that make Ferrari a company that sucks? Or if one doesn't like Cameron Diaz, does that make him gay or Diaz ugly? Nope!

We live in a world with so many opinions which reminds me this:
"Opinions are like a$$holes... Everyone has one!"
So for those who feel like Apple is becoming the next M$ or that simply Apple sucks, back off, because we (the real MacFellas) have LOTS of other things to discuss, like... After Jaguar and Dual G4/1.25 what's gives?

As for Ed, he is AWESOME, which means he handles things ok! Here is an advice that I feel that he needs right now: If one person, one team, one nation in general, lets the bad guys take control we, the other non-qualified for battle, are doomed! When the times and places become too dark for the majority of people to handle things, sometimes one can make the difference by ONLY one move: Fight back instead of holding back... So, Ed, Admiral, Admin, et al, fight the good fight because as I see it, many people have lost their Apple way  so someone must put them back on the Apple track


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## Matrix Agent (Aug 15, 2002)

Ed, you just have to stay.

There are a lot of trolls roaming the board who are certainly fit for "termination", but we all need to watch out. It seems that recently this place has become hostile, to the point where that any person that dissents or "complains" about an Apple product, is a "troll."

Apple is a company, which i feel no allegiance to. I don't have to cut them any slack. They're going to have to fight for my money, by providing me with the qualitiy of products that I desire. I feel like this is no longer an accepted opinion on this board, and that must be "loyal" to Apple, nd continue to "support them."

The last thing I want this forum to become is a one-dimensional homogenous group of mac zealots who are not willing to compare PC's and Macs, or discuss the true speed/value of a product.

Ed, hope you feel better about the mod duties, its hard, tedious work.

And please, get rid of the trolls, but allow for respectful dissent.


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## chemistry_geek (Aug 15, 2002)

*To get a better perspective of what a Troll is, read on my friends...*


*From http://www.gnofn.org/~tlewis/glossary.htm#TROLL*

*Troll*
A person who posts only to inflame opinion is "trolling for flames". Most are so obvious that only the most clueless "newbies" respond.

*From http://www.altairiv.demon.co.uk/troll/trollfaq.html (This goes into great detail)

Section 1: What Is A Troll?*

The WWW gives this as a definition:

troll v.,n. To utter a posting on Usenet designed to attract predictable responses or flames. Derives from the phrase "trolling for newbies"; which in turn comes from mainstream "trolling";, a style of fishing in which one trails bait through a likely spot hoping for a bite. The well-constructed troll is a post that induces lots of newbies and flamers to make themselves look even more clueless than they already do, while subtly conveying to the more savvy and experienced that it is in fact a deliberate troll. If you don't fall for the joke, you get to be in on it.

The following extract is from a broader expansion of the defining comments given above:

In Usenet usage, a "troll" is not a grumpy monster that lives beneath a bridge accosting passers-by, but rather a provocative posting to a newsgroup intended to produce a large volume of frivolous responses. The content of a "troll" posting generally falls into several areas. It may consist of an apparently foolish contradiction of common knowledge, a deliberately offensive insult to the readers of a newsgroup, or a broad request for trivial follow-up postings. There are three reasons why people troll newsgroups:

People post such messages to get attention, to disrupt newsgroups, and simply to make trouble.

Career trollers tend for the latter two whilst the former is the mark of the clueless newbie and should be ignored. 

*This continues....click here to read more (http://www.altairiv.demon.co.uk/troll/trollfaq.html)*.

*From http://www.cgocable.net/~jrussel/netdefn.htm

Trolls*
Trolls are little buggers who pester people. They sign on to mailing lists only long enough to learn who is on and what issues trigger their rage buttons. They then proceed to push these buttons and sit back and watch. They are looking for endless streams of messages of outrage, messages asking for someone to police the situation, messages of people asking for restraint, and in the end of a successful trolling operation, litanies of how other instances of trollings and the dreaded history of trolling from the first days of the Internet. The best solution is silence. Dead space is like a lack of oxygen to a troll. They quickly move on to another list and are not missed.

*BAN THE TROLLS!*

In my opinion, *TROLLING* constitutes an intellectual crime of wasting the time of members of the board.  Life is too short to be pissed-off about frivilous drabble.  It's time to get rid of the riff-raff of the community.  Keep in mind that *TROLLING* is different from expressing an opinion.


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## edX (Aug 15, 2002)

ok, after getting some sleep i'll admit this was probably a bit of a melodramatic way to address the issue, which isn't really about me per se. it is about trolls and site policy regarding trolling. the real question here is should we allow trolls? and i am talking about the types just defined so well in chemistry_geek's post. this is the issue. it is just that i will let go of my duties if the members here decide that allowing trolls is an important thing. right now people seem to prefer getting rid of them by about 3 to 1. 

to reiterate - i am not talking about the need for a homogenous bunch of glazed eyed mac fanatics. i am not talking about the desire to censure those who have complaints. i'm not talking about members who make legitimate contributions to this site in tech forums. I'm talking about the trolls who come to this forum and the opinion forum and have nothing but arguments to add to most any conversation. You know, the ones who never offer any help to others and yet sit in this forum and act all high and mighty about how much more they know than the rest of us. They are a very small number of people who create a huge amount of attention for themselves while offereing nothing of any real value to this community.

i have been a strong advocate of allowing free speech on this site. i realize that this current position might seem out of synch with that. I can only say that my experience in being a moderator has given me a new perspective on what is free speech and what is abusive flame baiting. 

serpicolugnut - not to worry. you're not on the troll list. i know you aren't always 'gleeful' about things and have no problem expressing that. i may not agree with you much of the time, but i respect the mature way in which you normally express yourself and the fact that you are seen contributing around this site and help others - you're not just here to blow your horn.

someone said trolls are a fact of life. that may be true, but there are other forums where they are not allowed at all and the signal to noise ratio on these sites is much higher than we are currently experiencing at macosx.com. there are plenty of outlets for trolls. this doesn't have to be one of them.

and it doesn't matter if it's me or someone else who has to deal with them. they will still be the same problem to whoever moderates . For all of you who think this is overstating the issue, i invite you to spend the next few days reading every word of every post in this forum. see how long it takes. see how much of it is the same crap said in diffferent ways by the same few trolls. see how you start to feel after the experience.

of course i also believe that the answer suggested above - that we all start ignoring them and they will just go away on their own is a very good one. if we stop biting their bait, they will move to a new fishing hole and this will be a mute point.

oh, and thanks to all for your kind words about me. it is great to see people i don't recognise come out of the woodwork and voice their opinions on this. and also to see the people i do know speak so candidly about the issue, even when they think the issue of free speech is more important than who moderates. I respect that very much. thanks to all who have spoken here and TIA to all who will add to this.


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## bubbajim (Aug 15, 2002)

Don't let the Trolls get to you Ed... 

I haven't been posting much recently mainly because I too have been sick of the negative vibe.  This is not enough to push me away, but it did subdue me alittle.

I like the post chemistry_geek posted..informative.  From this I gathered a very simple solution to rid our site of Trolls....
**pause for drum roll**
The answer is:  JUST IGNORE THEM.

This is a hard task.  I didn't say this was an easy solution, just a simple one.  All you have to do is not post a message rebutting the obvious flame.  If the thread is about fixing a video card from crashing and a Troll throws in a "video card doesn't work because Apple sux", just reply to the thread and respond to the previous post before the flame like it never was there.

I have done this on other boards and found that you can actually continue a good thread by just ignoring the bad seeds.  They may continue to throw flames into the thread, but eventually they will cross the line and you will feel better when you ban them and will not be concerned about 'over-moderating'.

Basically the Trolls will ban themselves by trying harder to get your attention.  Some Trolls may learn that this is inappropriate behavior and stop the flaming.  Some will become more evil and will stand out of the crowd; which makes it easy for the crowd to tar and feather.


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## ryanmathus (Aug 15, 2002)

You can leave


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## hazmat (Aug 15, 2002)

No "I'm Herve"? ;-)

Ed, please stay.  Stop moderating if you must, but don't leave.


-Ken


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## chemistry_geek (Aug 15, 2002)

My apologies to anyone experiencing wierd formatting problems with this page earlier today.  When I posted my last comment, Mozilla's "pref.js" file had somehow become corrupted, resulting in very strange effects.  Slashdot was also affected by this glitch, and they were not too kind about the affected post; they pounced on it.

Hmm...something I could probably let the Mozilla team know about.


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## edX (Aug 15, 2002)

i was wondering about that niles. it was right the first time i saw it and then it was filled with space dilineaters. i wasn't sure if it was something you did for effect or somebody hacking your post or what. glad you figured it out and explained it to us. and fixed it


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## theed (Aug 15, 2002)

in part responding to the definition of a well constructed troll as stated a few posts earlier; I think the problem is only partially the trolls, but equally if not more so the flamers.  Without flamers the trolls have no fun and seldom stay long.  With this board growing like it has, many people here are newbies in one form or another, and act accordingly.  They may be well meaning, but they are chum for the trolls.

Ed, I have already left, and come back.  A lot of this board is depressing to me now, as it is such a large, convoluted version of what it once was.  What brought me back was the old crew, you specifically being one of the major players.  If you were to go, I would too.  I'm not sure which I prefer.  It's like going to see old friends in a bar that you no longer like.

I actually want the admin to do more crazy crap like he did, shutting down the board for a day.  Let those who lack perseverance go away.  I think flaming needs to stop.  I'd like an informal rule of no more than 3 posts for every 20 in a thread.  If you feel you need to say more than that, you probably talk too much.  (exceptions for the thread starter perhaps)

In a room full of smart people, it is important to listen more than you speak.

Ed, I miss you already.  Your leaving of this board or of your admin position is irrelevant to me.  All the best to you at any rate.

 - ED.


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## chemistry_geek (Aug 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ed Spruiell _
> *i was wondering about that niles. it was right the first time i saw it and then it was filled with space dilineaters. i wasn't sure if it was something you did for effect or somebody hacking your post or what. glad you figured it out and explained it to us. and fixed it *



I knew something was wrong when I went to edit my post and Mozilla inserted the "|" character where spaces were supposed to be.  Also, some web pages were not rendered correctly, and or course, at Slashdot there were no spaces between the words I posted.  Slashdot gave me a "Score: 0, Troll" moderation, with someone commenting "IthinkIseeyourproblem".


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## jeb1138 (Aug 15, 2002)

*WARNING -- This is an opinion!*
Absolutely, positively, unquestionably, indisputably:  Ban The Trolls.

Ed - cool, calm, rational, open minded, intelligent, kind - is induced to think, for however long, about leaving his position?  Enough said.

Is there a purpose to this site?  This is, or used to be, a place to escape the drudgery of the PC world that surrounds us and connect to other mac-loving people that, due to our being small-in-number, we wouldn't be able to connect with without the power of the internet and the generosity of this site's owner and the moderators.

It is also a place to ask for help, for those of us who can't afford a $40 technical support call (), and give help when we can.

It is a place to post news, offer inside info on rumors, maybe, and share cool toys/tools/ideas that we have.

_Rants_ sometimes have their place -- sometimes you just wanna relieve some pressure, vent your anger or check your sanity with people who can sympathize, offer a second viewpoint or listen without laughing (too much!).

_Trolling_ has no place here.  It has no part in our purpose.  Without any boundaries, limits or purpose the site turns to chaos.  One word:  Entropy.

Ed, of all the members of this forum I can't think of anybody who could more capably and fairly weed out trolls.  And MacOSX.com needs some weeding.

Ed, perhaps a "Rant" section would give honest (infrequent!) ranters a place to vent without appearing trollish?  Or maybe even a "The Great Debate" forum for those who enjoy debating the merits of Mac's vs PC's with 'the outsiders'?

Bottom line:  Second opinion?  Another viewpoint?  Since when did a Mac user need to step further than two feet from his/her desk to find a 'qualified' second opinion on the Mac Platform?  I thought we came here to get away from the Great Debate and just enjoy our Mac's for a small part of our day.  It's not suppression or denial, it's a 10 minute vacation, everyday, courtesy of MacOSX.com.


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## RyanLang (Aug 16, 2002)

Ed, let me know if you go, because then I will have to go. Your opinions are one of the reasons why I've stuck around a forum like this one. I think if you really want to go, we could start our own forum(s) and the people who want you to stay can join our new forum! -Ryan


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## chemistry_geek (Aug 16, 2002)

Many years ago when I was BBSing (late high school & early college years), there was one BBS where all the Geeks hung out, aside from a few hundred other members.  We had a secret little "Back Room" on the BBS that no one outside "the group" knew about.  It was great!  It was like secret club.  Too bad we couldn't have that here.  Who knows?  Maybe it already exists here.  It would be easy to set up with user logins & passwords, etc..., and some cryptic address that didn't have a link anywhere on the site.  And of course, no one new could be included in "the group" unless all the members of "the group" approved of the new membership.  It would be our little private discussion board.  This could be nice for the people who were early neighbors in the community.  This board has grown a lot in the year.  I can say that I don't recognize approximately half of the posters now.


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## Gregita (Aug 16, 2002)

If you all have read my follow-up to my iTunes rants...you will see a part of it where I thank a moderator.

I thank that moderator for deciding to leave my posts. I also say that I knew he was right because I trusted his judgement.

That moderator was Ed. 

It saddens me to think of coming here, and not having you here to moderate.

You make a difference here.

I remember when I first started posting here, I made the newbie mistake of posting a thread about iPhoto 1.1.1 being new. (It was a month old at that point.)

Ed and I talked about it, and about someone else who was trying to berate me.

He told me that my responses were very human, and that that was a good thing.

It seems to me that what you said applies to you as well, Ed.

You add a human touch to this forum. 

You are an equalizer, an inspiration, a center.

If you decide to stop moderating, I will support your decision. We all will.

But don't expect us to enjoy it. 

I hope that all of this rambling helps. I hope it shows you a small part of the difference that you make here.

We honor you, respect you, and trust you. Coming from a board as jaded as this one is, that says a lot. 

In closing, all I can say is that I hope you arrive at a decision that makes you happy. As always, I trust your judgement. I know you will make the right decision. You usually do.

Best, Greg


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## fab5freddy (Aug 16, 2002)

_The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step._



PAID (PezAgent In Disguise)


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## uoba (Aug 16, 2002)

PezAgent, is this a new you, one line posts and all


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## fab5freddy (Aug 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by uoba _
> *PezAgent, is this a new you, one line posts and all *



Yeah, well, I told you guys I just needed to get some crap off my chest. Pretty soon I'll get bored and find something else to do with my time.


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## buttercup (Aug 16, 2002)

This is quite a pathetic thread and to think, it's coming from a Moderator no less.

The gist of it is this.

Ed: Please people, tell me what to do!  I'm a grown adult and can't make decisions for myself.  I need the praise and reassurance of 15 year olds to be able to go on in this sick sad world.  Wo is me.

I'm sorry but how lame is this?  If Ed can't figure out what to do without us holding his hand, maybe he should get the hell out of Dodge!

What the hell is going on around here?  It's like f*cking euphoria.  You people are being manipulated by those in charge yet you line up in droves like you can't get enough of it.


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## uoba (Aug 16, 2002)

So what was your last log-in username again?


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## edX (Aug 16, 2002)

buttercup, pezagent or azosx or whoever you really are - (i suspect azosx because once more you read things the way you choose to). that isn't what this thread is about at all. i know what to do. i already made up my mind that if the site members want trolls, then i would let go of my moderation duties. plain and simple decision. 
this thread is about finding out if others feel the same way i do about them. if so, then there is no reason for me to resign as we should just give them the boot. i think the populus has spoken very loudly. if this were an american election, the winner would have been announced long ago and the loser would have made a noble concession speech. i see such nobility is beyond you. 

please, pm all the friends you have made here while you still have the chance and take them with you wherever you are headed next.  

btw - nice job of editing your post from the original version i saw


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## macZeen (Aug 16, 2002)




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## Oscar Castillo (Aug 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by buttercup _
> *This is quite a pathetic thread and to think, it's coming from a Moderator no less.
> 
> The gist of it is this.
> ...



Sounds about right.  Move on Ed.


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## jeb1138 (Aug 16, 2002)

Let the pruning begin!


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## edX (Aug 17, 2002)

i am unsticking this thread because the issue is over and the members of this site have spoken very loudly and clearly. it is not a unanimous decision but this much of a margin certainly would have made our past american presidential election a more trustable one. i can't remeber ever seeing a poll on this site generating as many votes in less than 24 hours. Thank you all for your participation.

i also want to thank everyone who voiced their opinions - both for and against. other smaller discussions are scattered around the site if you are interested in them. no one is going to be banned for expressing an opinion, either for or against the changes that are taking place. but be very sure that from now on, people will lose their priviledges of participating in this private forum site as a poster if they flame others or attempt to purposely incite others to flame. insults aimed at admin, the other mods, other members or myself will not be tolerated. 

people will exit if they come here for no other reason than to bash macs and mac owners. members will vanish if they cannot find a way to express themselves that doesn't include the 7 words you can't say on television. 

nothing has really changed for most people. you were never part of the problem. so don't sweat it and go back to arguing about when or if the G5 will ever see the light of day.  

Hopefully macosx.com can be a fun place to hang out again very soon.

and i will be taking that suggested time off to recoup before long. thanks for caring enough about me to suggest that.


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## toast (Aug 18, 2002)

I've been in holidays for three weeks, and I'm travelling to England in a few days (Reading Festival / Noting Hill Gate Carnival...). I just checked my mail in a hurry and threw a look on this board.

I've missed a lot of the discussions.
Here's what I've missed and read through today:

- skepticism thread
- optimism thread
- this thread

I hope you'll all understand if I write here what I think of them: that's all *fucking stupid*.

I discovered this board some time ago. It has completely degenerated since. I hope www.macosx.com will be different when I'll come back.

PS: and you should all go to the Reading Festival ! And to the Noting Hill Carnival !

**EDIT**: made the whole post shorter.


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## toast (Aug 18, 2002)

Also, if I remember _The Hobbit_ well, trolls turn to stone at dawn... 

*EDIT*: just checked. Yes, I remebered well .


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