# Dashboard rips off Konfabulator



## kendall (Jun 29, 2004)

konfabulator is an awesome utility and Apple straight jacked them.  have they NO SHAME?

and despite how optimistic konfabulators website is now, dashboard is gunna put dem out of bidnus!

to my knowledge, this is the second time Apple has straight ripped off a 3rd party developers work.  why do they do this then use it to promote their next OS?  i dont find anything revolutionary about ripping someone off.  Apple is lucky someone takes the time to make such an awesome app for their platform and how do they thank them?!

i really like konfabulator, one of the few shareware apps ive actually purchased, and it disgusts me what Apple is doing to them.


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## malexgreen (Jun 29, 2004)

I thought the Tiger presentation was very impressive. They could have left Dashboard out without diminishing it's impact.

Too bad there isn't a patent on Konfab, else Apple could be in deep doo-doo. Nevertheless I spoke with my pocketbook and bought a Konfab. license. Of couse I'll be upgrading to  Tiger when it comes out, but I doubt I'll use Dashboard.


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## RacerX (Jun 29, 2004)

kendall said:
			
		

> to my knowledge, this is the second time Apple has straight ripped off a 3rd party developers work.



No argument here.

I wish they hadn't done it the first time.


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## Zammy-Sam (Jun 29, 2004)

Are the konfab widgets compatible to apples dashboard? If not, I see no reason why the developers of konfabulator should feel bad about this. The widgets are the fruity part and there are many more available for konfabulator and the way the developers are increasing its features, ppl will still favour konfab..


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## Ricky (Jun 29, 2004)

Pixoria got a ton of pity registrations today for Konfabulator  (Including one from me for my little bro).  I really hope they hang in there.  As a Widget developer, I'm really appalled to see this all happening.  It's very disheartening.

I got to chat with Arlo about three or four weeks back about this.  He was devastated, mentioning that he may not ever develop another Mac application.  

For everyone that thinks that Apple's only expanding on the functionality of Desk Accessories, may I point you to this forum post? I think it sums things up best.


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## GroundZeroX (Jun 29, 2004)

I'm tired of hearing people say that Dashboard is a rip off of Konfabulator. I can't stand Konfabulator. Konfabulator isn't even an original program. I have been a mac user for 4 years, and before that I was a Windows user. I was actually listed as a developer for windows programs, and was constantly shipped Windows and Office Betas. Konfabulator is nothing more then a nicer version of Active Desktop which to this day still exists in Windows world. Active Desktop has been around in one form or another since at least the summer of 1997, I think it actually came out in the winter of 1996. Active Desktop allowed for you to "subscribe" to these URLs that created active information applets on the desktop. It would get updated information from such places as CNet, or ZDNet, or stock portfolio's, airplane maps to see where your friends plane is and etc. It does the exact same thing Konfabulator did, and it did it in 1996. Why did it not take off? Because most people only had 28.8 connections so the program was incredibly slow. With as slow as the Active Desktop elements were, you might as well go to the site to see the updates. 

So lets look at the facts.
1. Dashboard is a way to view different types of information with mini applications
2. Konfabulator does very very similar things
3. Dashboard is highly dependent on Expose
4. Konfabulator's concept is a "rip off" of Active Desktop
5. Active Desktop has been around since IE4 came out for Windows 95

Don't believe me about this? Well then, lets look at these links
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/ie/previous/gallery/default.mspx
http://www.computertim.com/howto/article.php?topic=windows&idn=45
http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?970929.eaurora.htm

The concept that Konfabulator, Dashboard, Active Desktop, RSS/Atom are all going for is something we called "push" technology which was a big term used back in 96-97, because it made it easy to get information. There were programs like Pointcast, that pretty much does what we use RSS/Atom for, but it did it through one company. The success of Pointcast is what spawned off such things as Active Desktop, and I believe it was Netcast by Netscape. 

People keep making a big deal about them using Javascript as the scripting language for Dashboard. Well, Javascript puts Dashboard programming in more hands then any other scripting language I can think of. Every webmaster should know Javascript, and that would make it within the capabilities of any webmaster to make their own widget. 

Please people, keep an open mind when you say this stuff. Konfabulator is definitely not a new idea. It was part of a plan Microsoft almost bet the entire Desktop operating system of. It was part of the basis of the Anti-trust case. Apple uses it, and people accuse them of copying Konfabulator.


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## soulseek (Jun 29, 2004)

apple just ddoes it better 

http://www.macrumors.com/downloads/tiger/dashboard_address.mov

http://www.macrumors.com/downloads/tiger/dashboard_flip.mov

3rd party apps are usually why u get problems in operatin systems... 
i pay $129 for a complete operatin system, i dont wanna pay anythin extra... 
nothin more need to be said. !!!


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## GroundZeroX (Jun 29, 2004)

Ricky, how could you have had a conversation about the Konfabulator's supposed rip off a few weeks ago, when it was first shown today, or the earliest Saturday if you read Macrumors.


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## gerbick (Jun 29, 2004)

First Watson, now Konfabulator.  Sorta "Microsoft-ish" imho.


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## Zammy-Sam (Jun 29, 2004)

I still think, that konfabulator is not lost after apple included something similar to it. There are so many widgets with different functions, that will keep konfabulator still alive. And hey, wasn't everyone asking, why apple doesn't have such functions like konfabulator included? Now we have it and why do we mind it now? In these days, every little thing you add was somehow done by a tool before. I don't consider this as a sort of rip-off. And where would we have ended up, if apple wasn't allowed to include such great tools in our macosx versions? Probably still in some macos9-alike environment. 
It's a nice thing to see all those usefull options now in one DVD. I don't have to look for such tools, download them, pay for additional licence keys and bother with new updates and bugfixes.


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## diablojota (Jun 29, 2004)

I just wish Apple had collaborated with the developers of Konfabulator before doing such.  This could've provided Apple with quite a benefit as they wouldn't have to reinvent the wheel.  Oh well...  Apple should at least acknowledge the work of their 3rd party developers.


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## Cat (Jun 29, 2004)

Hm, widgets, docklets, dashboard all have been around for several years in various incarnations in various OSes. So what? Is Apple really ripping off konfabulator? Well, I didn't see 3D effects ripple effects when I launch Konfabulator widgets or make them turn around to change my settings or make them appear and disappear at the touch of a button. Oh wait, I can, now that Konfabulator recently ripped off Exposè to implement a similar function ... 
Apple showed us a handfull of innovative features of Tiger, one of them resembles technologies we have seen around for more than 15 years and we say they ripped it off the last one who implemented it ... not really fair ... There have been interactive, live-updating docklings in various Linux docks for years and the word "Widget" simply is a contraction of "Window Gadget" IIRC and not a copyrighted, owned concept. Do we say Apple ripped of Adobe because it made a better PDF viewer? Should be we say Apple ripped of Konfabulator because it re-implemented in a better way something that has been used and re-used for years and years by Apple itself and NeXT and GNU/Linux? We've seen docklets in OS X at the very beginning e.g. for Airport signal strenght. Then we've seen them back as Menubar items, then we got ProcessViewer as interactive Docklet. Now we get Dashboard which takes Docklets out of the Dock and gives them a window environment of their own and so you have Widgets.
No, I'm sorry, I can't agree with all the harsh criticism of Apple ripping Konfabulator off.


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## gerbick (Jun 29, 2004)

but they are competing with the people that support them on both sides of the fence.  final cut pro/shake basically made Premiere an afterthought, Sherlock made Watson into an afterthought, Motion looks like it'll be taking on Combustion and Aftereffects head on, and this... well, they just knocked out Konfabulator perhaps.

The people that support the MacOS X platform have been complaining for a while that Apple does not offer the correct tools - such as Konfabulator having to use Javascript as opposed to AppleScript because those things were not "open" to them - or access to deeper API's.

To reiterate... very Microsoft-ish imho.


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## powermac (Jun 29, 2004)

GroundZeroX is correct. No one ripped off anyone, consider this:

* 1984: Apple introduces desk accesories. Little programs that go anywhere on the desktop and can be run in parallel to other applications.
* 1986-ish: Apple introduces Multifinder.
* 1990-ish: Apple introduces System 7, and deprecates DAs.
* 1998: Windows 98, complete with active desktop and on-desktop widgets.
* 2000-ish: Apple introduces Mac OS X. Widgets now go in the dock.
* 2002-ish: Apple moves widgets to the menu bar.
* 2003-ish: Konfabulator is born.
2004: Apple moves widgets to the desktop and adds javascript.

People are acting and assuming Konfabulator invented this. take a look at the history.


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## kendall (Jun 29, 2004)

look at dashboard.  not knowing anything about it id assume it was konfabulator.  THAT IS HOW SIMILAR IT LOOKS.

similarity aside, it does the exact same thing konfabulator does, brings javascript widgets to the desktop.

nobody is arguing that there wasnt small desktop/dockapp/menubar apps in the past but konfabulator was the first to use javascript to bring them to the desktop and do it so VERY VERY well.

apple sees this and completely rips them off, lock, stock and barrel.  put it this way, if you cant glance at dashboard without being reminded of konfabulator, its a blatant ripoff.


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## Zammy-Sam (Jun 29, 2004)

did konfabulator ripoff java? Using a certain technology (no matter if licenced or not) is no ripoff to me.


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## Ripcord (Jun 29, 2004)

The sad thing is, Watson and Konfab were some of the reasons that I switched to X.  At the moment, similar programs don't exist in Windows (at least that are of any quality).  Quite a few small, very useful, well-designed apps like this are unique to OS X, and increase the user experience on the platform today 

Dashboard is a(nother) slap in the face to these developers, saying, "hey, develop cool stuff for our platform!  It's the best!  And if you come up with a really good idea, we'll steal it and integrate it into the OS, effectively making it pointless for anyone to reward you for your efforts!"

It certainly is feasible to think that innovators will think twice before innovating on Mac.  Even Microsoft hasn't done that sort of thing in recent memory (their moves are far more well-thought out and calculated)

Apple's taking a similar strategy with their retail stores and their resellers, eventually I have to imagine they're going to start seeing the aftereffects of what they're doing here...


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## Pengu (Jun 29, 2004)

OK. I didnt want to get into this, cus it will end badly. But now you made me.
A) Does dashboard support third party widgets? I havent seen anything saying so.
B) Does dashboard support literally hundreds (thousands?) of existing widgets?
C) It's america. Capitalism is about making money. If you don't make money, you fail. Arlo & Pery didn't copyright/patent ANY part of konfabulator. Apple took an existing idea (which it seems they pretty much came up with 20 years ago) and re-engineered it. Where's the crime?

If you feel so strongly about it, give them your money. Otherwise build a bridge and get over it already. Anyone would think arlo & perry were living on the street eating out of bins the way you lot are going on.


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## lnoelstorr (Jun 29, 2004)

Pengu said:
			
		

> A) Does dashboard support third party widgets? I havent seen anything saying so.



http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/dashboard.html



			
				Apple Site said:
			
		

> Developers can build their own Widgets using the JavaScript language...



I'd say that's a yes then.


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## Ripcord (Jun 29, 2004)

Pengu said:
			
		

> C) It's america. Capitalism is about making money. If you don't make money, you fail. Arlo & Pery didn't copyright/patent ANY part of konfabulator. Apple took an existing idea (which it seems they pretty much came up with 20 years ago) and re-engineered it. Where's the crime?



That's right, in business it only has to be *highly* illegal to be wrong, deplorable, scandalous, etc.  If I force an old lady out onto the street with no financial remuneration, it's legal!  And it's okay because it's in the name of business.

I suppose this mindset in America is why Microsoft is still one company and not three...


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## Quicksilver (Jun 29, 2004)

I agree with GroundZeroX, I think confabulator is a waist of space and it lowers the mac os x elegance and class. In my opinion its crap. I downloaded konfab once, used it for an hour or so playing around and deleted it within a day. Its worse than pop-up's on a windows machine.

VERY Bad move apple. It just don't sell me another os, no way! I would have spent the cash in promoting the operating system "MAC OS X - Tiger" on a TVC or somthing.

I dont know much about the history of Konfabulator but I see as a bit like asking all your developers to develop for you, but when one has a great product, its taken right out of there heart. Not only that, it happened right on WWDC. whats that all about? That will surley scare alot of developer potential away.



anyway...... T think konfab may still be around for a while though.


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## mi5moav (Jun 29, 2004)

The didn't rip it off they made it better. If they thought there product was one of a kind why didn't they copyright the design? How is it that we have 20 car companies? Did they rip each other off heck no they make their own product and made it better.

Apple has been trying this widget push since Opendoc and Cyberdog. All Konfabulator does is become a container for the widgets...and it does a lousy job in my opinion. If anything they totally ripped off Apple with their Konpose. I don't think they understand the concept?

Everyone does things differently. Many people like Konfabulator for the eye candy. I used to enjoy it for the information at my fingertips...However,  the latest versions destroy some of the older widgets so, I no longer use it. Unfortunately, who ever runs that company has a horrible business and marketing sense and was slowly destroying the product. He knew that he was running out of ideas and should be ashamed for trying to halt competition. 

Apple pushes people sometimes they do it out of love, hate what not but almost every time everyone wins. Heck if Apple didn't push Microsoft with certain things we wouldn't have this great office product, if they didn't push Watson it would be as bad as sherlock. Anyone that doesn't enjoy competition is stupid and greedy, simple as that... and scared as a buffalo in miami.


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## Ricky (Jun 29, 2004)

[Post content removed.]


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## mi5moav (Jun 29, 2004)

Arlo ripped off the idea of OpenDoc and CI labs components, containers and objects that IBM and Apple were working on ten years ago. Nothing changed the container idea was there the ability to create your own widgets(and many called them widgets/components back then) The only thing that changed is that back then components could be linked together in ways which Arlo has done a lousy job of pushing and the Aqua graphics came around. All Konfabulotro and these widgets are, is a repackaged version of live objects with a prettier graphics.

http://www.atpm.com/2.09/page5.shtml


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## gerbick (Jun 29, 2004)

bah.  if Microsoft did it, all of you would be up in arms.  Face it.  Apple did a bit of "stealing" here from an idea that wasn't original - in the scheme of things - but sure was original on the MacOSX platform.

by some of the rationale in this thread, if MS does it - which they just might with their XAML plans for Longhorn - I guess it should be chalked up to "good business" right?  As long as they make it better.

bah.


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## mi5moav (Jun 29, 2004)

Is not the calculator or QT movie player or and small Apple component that has been there since 1984 just a widget with a container being the OS?  So, basically they just built a secondary OS over Mac OS to run these without borders, that's it. You need to run Konfabulator before you can open a widget don't you?  So, there is no difference between konfabulator and LiveObjects... just that Konfabulator came ten years later.  

Yes, there is a huge difference between Apple Microsoft thing and Apple Konfabulator... it is the idea!!! Only Apple as a Company saw that ordinary people wanted to see their computer interface related in a graphical manner. Xerox didn't, a few individuals within the company but if Xerox had the foresight of Apple thinkers they would have done something about it. 

Marketing your ideas that is all it comes down to. Microsoft took the idea and the design and made it look and work like crap in their first try. The only thing Apple may have done was take the design(though they created the aqua look and feel first) and made it look better and work better... they've already been working on components and widgets ideas of computing for 12+ years and in essence 20+ since they knew that people didn't want to have to open up Word or Excel to calculate... that is why they built the widget called calculator that runs outside of its own window in a container called Mac Os.


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## Zammy-Sam (Jun 29, 2004)

point me one feature of macosx, windows or any other os that wasn't "stolen". I will find you the application that performed something similar to it and was published before. 
Ok, maybe there are some, but you will be very surprised how less there are actually. What do you want? A naked os where you have to get all your apps/tools and customization features seperately? Apple to add a little textbox within the Dashboard saying: special thanks to konfabulator/launchbar?
Peeelease!


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## kainjow (Jun 29, 2004)

Zammy-Sam said:
			
		

> Apple to add a little textbox within the Dashboard saying: special thanks to konfabulator/launchbar?


haha!

I think the Konfabulator guys are fing babies. They need to embrace Dashboard, and start porting all their widgets over, and become the #1 third-party widget creator...

If Apple stole my apps' ideas, I wouldn't pout and complain. I'd be happy and honored that they copied. So the konfabulator guys need to do the same.

Maybe we don't want childish, pouting developers working on our platform anyways..


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## gerbick (Jun 29, 2004)

kainjow... Pod2Go?


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## GroundZeroX (Jun 29, 2004)

Oh, and as far as Arlo is concerned, this is what I found out yesturday. He worked for Apple, working on the theme manager with others for 8 I believe, and was fired. The guy then went off, and started off kaleidoscope which changes the themes for you without the theme manager. So let me get the straight, he works for a company, gets fired, steals the work that he was working on with other people, publishes a product based off of that and gets several years of revenue for. Then he steals Active Desktop, and Apple copies part of their implementation, and you guys are calling Apple thieves? Do any of you realize that what Arlo did with Kaleidoscope can be considered illegal? When a person is let go from a company as a software engineer, they have for very long time been made to sign contracts stating that they wouldn't work on similar products or features for competing companies for X amount of years. I believe it is typically 4 or 5. You can't BS your way out of that as far as I am concerned about the guy who got canned from Apple then stole their IP for years of his own profit.

To me, it is clearly the truth that Arlo scammed Apple, and then he scammed MS, and now he is pissing and moaning because Apple is bringing back something that used to be part of the ORIGINAL MAC OS. 

Heck, need proof? My girlfriend is a software engineer, and if she was fired or quits she would have to sign similar contracts. She also has one of the original Macs. I've messed with the "Desktop Accessories" before, or "Widgets" or "Active Desktop" stuff, that Arlo claims that he worked on all by himself, and was in NO WAY motivated by stuff that was out for nearly 20 YEARS before Konfabulator came out. Active Desktop has been out for 7 years, and they blatantly copies them too. But hey, lets say that he is the victim.


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## Ricky (Jun 29, 2004)

GroundZeroX, I suggest you get your facts straight before you start bashing people.  Arlo did not steal any work for Kaleidoscope (and actually went through a costly legal battle with Apple over this, which proved this).  Arlo didn't even program the utility.  The program was the work of a fellow named Greg Landweber.

As for Kaleidoscope vs. Active Desktop...  Widgets' functions are not limited to the Internet.  They can hook into the system and give you information like CPU usage and AirPort signal strength.  They can run just about any shell commands you please.  They can interface with applications using AppleScript.  And they can be written in a day.  I'd like to see you try all that with Active Desktop.

Kaleidoscope vs. Desk Accessories...  Refer to my earlier link .

Kaleidoscope vs. DesktopX...  It does not matter who came first.  Konfabulator's implementation has always been rock-solid and has been repeatedly requested by DesktopX users.  I can attest to this...  We're always razzing the people who post about K for Windows at the K forums.


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## kainjow (Jun 29, 2004)

gerbick said:
			
		

> kainjow... Pod2Go?


Uh yea, whaddya want?


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## Randman (Jun 29, 2004)

As was mentioned earlier, Konfab still has a year of life as before Dashboard hits the market. And the people creating can still create Widgets. No laws were broken. Just people seeing things from a very narrow perspective.
   How many people were in arms when Konposé was introduced recently with 1.7? No one was upset, saying Apple was ripped off.


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## mi5moav (Jun 29, 2004)

Any developer that believes he is going to make 500 million on his idea has a real big head. Most great developers do it because they love what they do. And some of the greatest apps are freeware or actually are worth the money. I would never pay $20 bucks for konfabulator on the whole scope of things. I'm sure Apple approached the guys and said hey i'll give you $50,000 for your idea and maybe even a job with them. Then they could have taken the money and like kainjow said created the best website for widgets and sell them for .25 cents to $2.00 a widget and make a mint... bad business on their part... now they look like big cry babies. Apple has helped make developing easier and easier every year they have made many developers very happy and some have made a few coins. You can't make everyone happy all the time.


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## bobw (Jun 29, 2004)

Maybe the people at Konfab took their idea from Apple;

http://folklore.org/StoryView.py?pr...rtbyDate&detail=medium&search=deskaccessories


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## powermac (Jun 29, 2004)

That is because that is what people use now Java


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## mr. k (Jun 29, 2004)

Nobody is ripping anybody off, ideas are just ideas, and more then one person can have and hold and even devise the same idea independently of each other!  Both Konfabulator and Apple are Software Companies, developing their ideas into products to convince people to but them.  They seem to both have a similar implementation, but christ, why re-invent the wheel?
Why do you think that all cars look similar?  They all use the same type of engine, and have for the last seventy or eighty years.  Because the engine is a good thing, there is more then one engine 'developer,' which in turn fosters competition between those engines.
I think apple implementing a new (and hopefully better) means of doing things that Konfabulator has done for a time now will foster innovation and competition within the Apple developer world, and competition in industry is always a good thing in the long run, What would we do if Apple didn't copy things from microsoft every once in a while to maintain the superior OS?  I very much enjoy Fast User Switching, just as one example.


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## kainjow (Jun 29, 2004)

The truth is, Apple's Dashboard is just competition. That's all it is. Mail.app is competition to Entourage, Eudora, etc. But I don't see them crying about it. Safari is competition to IE, Camino, OmniWeb, Mozilla, but those companies embrace it and continue developing. What about Stattoo? I don't remember everyone getting angry over that. When Apple released Sherlock 3, Watson was made better. Konfabulator needs to just accept it and move on. If their app truly is better then Dashboard, people will use it, as was the case with Watson.


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## GroundZeroX (Jun 29, 2004)

Ricky, I personally don't care. Konfabulator IS a knock off of Active Desktop and Desktop Accessories. I don't care that it does shell commands, and bla blah blah. There has been programs like this for years on Windows, long before Konfabulator. I can attest to that because I messed with a lot of the ObjectDesktop stuff before a became a Mac user. The information I got was from a friend last night who told me that Arlo worked on the Theme Manager back on the OS8 days, which is unusual to me because I remember the hype over Konfabulator because it came from the creator of Kaliedescope. I don't care what you have to say. Arlo copied Apple. Arlo copied Microsoft. Plain and simple. He didn't "invent" the idea of widgets. He didn't "invent" the idea of Desktop Accessories. He didn't invent the idea of anchored internet data in the form of a mini-app. He didn't "invent" the webkit that Dashboard uses to build Dashboard Widgets. He didn't "invent" Expose which Dashboard relies on. He didn't "invent" Core Image which Dashboard heavily relies on. I know this last one is hard to believe but Arlo certainly didn't "invent" Javascript. I don't see what everyone is complaining about. The only thing that can really be said is that they look similar. Why do they look similar? Because they are basically images held together by Javascript.

You said it didn't matter which one came first DesktopX, which I know for a fact came first, or Konfabulator. Well apparently it does, because Arlo is bringing in the cello and violins trying to get sob story sales off of Konfabulator, because Apple is doing something that is similar to his. Konfabulator is just like DesktopX too. But Arlo wants to play his sob sales games, and thats cool. I hope he does make some money because he did create a nice COPY of Windows products. But don't kid yourself into thinking that this guy is some sort of Genius because he made Konfabulator. Just the FACT that we know that there are so many similar products such as DesktopX, Active Desktop, Desktop Accessories, just goes to show that there is nothing to whine about.


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## ged3000 (Jun 29, 2004)

On the other hand, this gives Konfabulator a lot of press. Id heared of it and wigets before, but havent paid them a second thought. After reading this column, Ive had a look, and Knofabulator is the perfect solution to a number of little problems Ive found. Forget OS X.4, I want this app as soon as a get my own, private computer!

Plus, like others before have mentioned, this encourages the makers of konfabulator to improve their product. People who wouldnt have bought it before (like me), will look at dashboard, and either use it, or think 'this is limited, lets look for something better'. People who have paid for konfabulator will think either 'ill get this for free' or 'i like konfabulator - ill pay for that'. Yes,  konfabulator loses some customers, but more people hear of them, so other people will buy it too.

**writes note to get konfabulator when i buy a new mac for me....**


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## ged3000 (Jun 29, 2004)

wow - still looking through the [link]widgetgallery.com[/link]. Thankyou apple for introducing this product - if it wasnt for all this controversy youve caused, Id never have thought of this utility, and how useful does it look already! I want!


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## hulkaros (Jun 29, 2004)

Tiger will be a kick a$$ OS no doubt about it  Anything else is blah-blah for the sake of blah-blah...

 AmeN 


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## gerbick (Jun 29, 2004)

kainjow said:
			
		

> Uh yea, whaddya want?


I want nothing.  just trying to figure out where I knew that name.  cool app.  resume.


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## fryke (Jun 29, 2004)

Also look at these things this way: Imagine someone introduced a 'telephone' that could be used 'wirelessly' around town. Such a 'mobile phone' would be quite practical. Do you guess every other 'telephone maker' would just _stop_ innovating and let that new guy in town rule the market?

Konfabulator, to many people I reckon, was new. It wasn't Desk Accessories. It wasn't just web services. It was a truly innovative product, let's give them that credit. HowEVER: Can we blame Apple for copying good (and not patented or not even patentable) ideas when earlier we always had to blame others for copying Apple and Apple many times didn't even get the credit? Apple has learned. And Apple is doing better than before. Competition is what drives markets. Dashboard is a good competitor for Konfabulator. And if Konfabulator can't stand the heat, they won't survive.

I criticised Microsoft for similar - but different - strategies. Microsoft often bought a sub-par product and killed better competition by selling the bought product for (almost or even) no price. That was just unfair. But Apple is taking up ideas and does improve. Not necessarily with Sherlock, but quite surely with stuff like iChat, Safari, Mail, iSync and now Dashboard. I'm glad they're doing it. Because that brings people to the Mac side of computers. And that, in the end, brings people to buying Mac shareware, too. If you think you can get rich with inventing a bit of shareware and then stay selling it without ever bringing out yet another shareware product, then you're probably just wrong. Konfabulator is 'open', so it's improved by third party developers. Means: Arlo et al. get money without even improving the app (although they did and maybe will) because new widgets (have attracted) attract new customers. A bit of a self-runner. And it _did_ run and quite certainly sold better than many a shareware product.

Good, Apple! Next up: The MS Office killer? Yes, please!


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## Ripcord (Jun 29, 2004)

I think the thing that has really irked people here is that this isn't a matter of Apple saying "hey, other people have made MP3 players, let's make a really, really good one!" .  They're not simply taking a good general idea and running with it.  In these cases they've practically photocopied the original app and tried to pass it off as their own creation.  The amount of duplication without value-add was a bit moreso with Watson than with Konfabulator (the only difference I've seen so far is the expose-only thing, which I'm hoping gets dropped before release, which is still 9 months away), but still...

I think it's particularly hit people because in these cases they're not copying the big apps, i.e. cloning MS Office.  They're killing the little guy.

It might also be a different story if Apple was selling the product at a competitive rate, but like you mentioned, they're offering these new apps as part of the OS, which is NOT competitive.

At least since Sherlock looks like an unmaintained garbage pile now, users are beginning to be given a reason to take a look at Watson again, which is actually somewhat maintained and works...


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## fryke (Jun 29, 2004)

Quite probably MORE than 9 months... Could be as much as 12. Haven't seen an OS released _early_ in quite some time. ;-) And also: Konfabulator will probably sell more licenses now that people anticipate Tiger and can't yet buy it. Arlo and his team have enough time to decide what to do in order to not only survive but strive... They probably also have access to Tiger, so they could even start and make Konfabulator a BETTER dashboard (and/or dashboard replacement) before Tiger ships...


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## soulseek (Jun 29, 2004)

is it true that the guy at Watson was offered a job but declined ??? 

if yes, how stupid is that ?


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## GroundZeroX (Jun 29, 2004)

Soulseek, yes it is true man.


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## ElDiabloConCaca (Jun 29, 2004)

GroundZeroX: I heard that, but never read anything to back it up... can you provide a link?


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## GroundZeroX (Jun 29, 2004)

I believe I read it on his FAQ, but his FAQ now focuses on the buy out.


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## Cat (Jun 30, 2004)

Just a FYI:


> I haven't blogged in a long time, primarily because I've been so busy preparing for WWDC (working frantically on my presentation as well as fixes to WebCore to support Safari RSS and Dashboard of course). I'll be talking about both Dashboard and Safari RSS a lot more in depth (primarily from the perspective of all the new open source WebCore features that were added to support these two new features) once I've gotten some sleep.
> 
> I wanted to blog briefly to clear up what the widgets actually are written in. They are Web pages, plain and simple (with extra features thrown in for added measure). Apple's own web site says "build your own widgets using the JavaScript language", but that's sort of misleading. The widgets are HTML+CSS+JS. They are not some JS-only thing.
> 
> In other words, each widget is just a web page, and so you have the full power of WebKit behind each one... CSS2, DOM2, JS, HTML, XMLHttpRequest, Flash, Quicktime, Java, etc. I'll have a lot more to say later on, but I thought it important to clear that up right up front, since a lot of people were asking me about it in email and such.



From Dave Hyatt's weblog Surfin'Safari


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## Randman (Jun 30, 2004)

They're web pages?! You mean Apple ripped off the Internet, "created" *cough, cough* by one of its own board members, Al Gore? The nerve. Those bastards!


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## hulkaros (Jun 30, 2004)

LOL



LOL

 AmeN 


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## lnoelstorr (Jun 30, 2004)

[moved to a more relevant thread]


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## boult (Jun 30, 2004)

DashBoard is based on WebKit+CSS+JS and etc    so I recall Konfabulator is just javascript... 

now see this blog at Surfin' Safari, which this person posted to make it clear that it is not a rip off of Konfabulator.....  http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/hyatt/


EDIT:::  ahh nevermind..  I posted this for nothing...


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## Pengu (Jun 30, 2004)

So this is getting closer to "ActiveDesktop" all the time..

This is a good thing. I wonder if you could use it to create a permanent interface for a special purpose Mac, eg, a Cube in the lounge for DVD/DVR/Music/HDTV/etc. Could you make the Dashboard always show, (or set it "lock" open, and need a password to exit) to make sure the interface is always simple...?


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## boult (Jun 30, 2004)

In regard to the word "Dashboard"  check this site out: http://6v8.gamboni.org/article.php?id_article=1


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## Cat (Jun 30, 2004)

IIRC Micorsoft first came up with the idea to name a context-sensitive bar on the right side of Longhorn "Dashboard". The OpenSource community immediately picked the idea up. However, the entire idea is quite old and was already available in the form of interactive Docks in several OS distributions for years and years.


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## mr. k (Jun 30, 2004)

Everyone go read Dashboard vs. Konfabulator over at daringfireball.net - If this can't put an end to the 'stealing,' I don't know how much good evidence someone will have to put on paper to stop all this  noise...

Also - If anyone has their hands on the Dashboard developer kit, I would love a copy   I can't actually test gadgets until I get tiger, but because the gadgets are just web pages, I can test in safari!


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## Cat (Jul 1, 2004)

And keep an eye on http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/hyatt/
 Hyatt posted again on where he got the idea from... Surprise! It's not Konfabulator.


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## speedraycer (Jul 24, 2004)

I just start using Konfabulator but have to agree, if I didn't hear of Dashboard, then I never would have tried Konfabulator.  I can't wait for Apple to roll out their gadgets.  Plus then any developers will be able to write for the entire Tiget installed base, not just those that purchased Konfabulator


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## RGrphc2 (Aug 4, 2004)

i just read the first page and wanted to respond, yes Apple did rip off the idea of Konfabulator, i'll admit, and Konfabulator is a rip-off active desktop.  But anyways lets digress....Steve Jobs saw people developing widgets and well he want to mass market them, to everyone even to people who dont know what konfabulator is (heck i didnt know what it was till this post), he even said at the end of WWDC2004 that Dashboard is made with widgets (no duh!) but u could develop them with scripts...he is just letting programmers have fun.


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## pds (Aug 5, 2004)

rgrphc2

you should have read the whole thread.
Daring Fireball


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## RGrphc2 (Aug 5, 2004)

pds said:
			
		

> rgrphc2
> 
> you should have read the whole thread.
> Daring Fireball




I did, after i posted.  I still got the same feelings but the creator of Konfabulator should be proud that his app insipired Dashboard, i'm not a big fan of it, cause theres no way to remove them without closing the widgets


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