# So When Is Enough Enought Frames Per Second Anyway!!!!



## SoulCollector (Aug 4, 2003)

I mean see the benchmarsk for Quake on the G5 and Xeons..its like 240 to 325 fps..thas ridiculous.......up to when would you think....you dont even notice the lag??????
Thats what I wanna know.........do we need up to that much FPS for games like that..man Im lucky to get 40 or maybe even 30 on my Dual 1ghz
1.4Gig of ram and a old Geforce 4 MX...

So i mean up to like 70-90 average is nice... right??????
how much more smoother do we need...
basically just wanted to know how many FPS do we really need to  not notice hows running  more frams then another computer?????

just thinking..
G5Pimp......also can you imagine...if the G4..didnt have a bottleneck......??? I think it would compete to a P4 ..toe to toe..well then you have the megahertz gap soo who knows......Damn Moto for making a freaking Bottleneck I feel it everytime I play a damn..3d pushed game..DAMN EM patteuuuuuyyyy


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## phatcactus (Aug 4, 2003)

I, for one, will not be satisfied until my computer pre-cognitively renders my games' scenes before they happen.


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## JetwingX (Aug 4, 2003)

i think that the human eye can't tell the difference between 60 fps and up


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## Lycander (Aug 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Jet _
> *i think that the human eye can't tell the difference between 60 fps and up *


On an LCD screen no you wouldn't notice, but with a CRT monitor, if you change the refresh rate from 60 Hz, to something higher, there's a definite difference: your eyes won't hurt as much 

FPS is basically a measurement of performance that the marketing departments like to throw around to impress people. It's an easy enough concept that all their customers can understand, and companies use that as leverage to sell a product.


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## scruffy (Aug 5, 2003)

Any FPS rating higher than the screen's refresh rate is pointless - the card is just going to drop frames, since only one frame goes on the screen per screen refresh.

However, a stupidly high (i.e. faster than your screen can possibly redraw itself) frame rate on today's games does mean there's a good chance you'll be getting at least pleasantly playable (i.e. somewhat over 60 Hz) frame rates on games a couple of years from now.


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## Arden (Aug 5, 2003)

If you can achieve 300 fps, then you can crank up all the graphic options and set the resolution to the max your monitor will support and the game will still be very playable.  That's what those high numbers achieve for you.


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## a2daj (Aug 6, 2003)

It also means the less impact more complex scenes will have on your gameplay experience.  This is particularly important when playing multiplayer games where you don't want a lot of skipped framerates so you know what's going on onscreen at all times and want to make sure your system can always handle your input consistently.   Being able to run the game with good performance at higher resolutions is good because if you're going for a headshot in a game, at 640x480 the head might only be a couple of pixels to aim at.  But at 1600x1200, there's more pixels to aim at, and a slightly large amount of precision aiming you can do.  Add into that smooth gameplay and your frag count could go up


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## chevy (Aug 6, 2003)

It's like maximal speed of your car or its HP... it's always more than enough ! but even in this case, more is better !!!


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## SoulCollector (Aug 6, 2003)

Thanks for the reply guys, SO then that being said..........Does that Mean the G5 will be a screaming GAMING machine..I MEAN damn look at the Bandwith and the front side Bus..its just Crazyyyyyyyyyyy....Will this architecture.....Do us Gamers Justice??????Also one more question...I have a Dual 1ghz.......G4.......blah blah..
I want to get the G5..and yes in due time..
But would like to also get the 9800pro...how much more...power does the Dual 1.42 have on my Dual 1ghz??? I mean in gaming wise...and would I see a drastic Performance from My Crappy Geforce 4MX?? Cuz man Im really wanting to get it......And please Break down Drastic for me??? If Anyone already has it.??????

Payceeeee..G5pimp


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## chevy (Aug 6, 2003)

Most games now depend more on the card than on the CPU, and all cards are old when 6 months old... there is no ultimate game machine.


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## SoulCollector (Aug 6, 2003)

http://www.barefeats.com/rad9800h.html


Check that out if you guys want some..Radeon9800 Tests......
pretty ensightful....


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## brianleahy (Aug 6, 2003)

And keep in mind that movies (as in Hollywood, big screen) are only 24 fps, and NTSC videotaped programs are only 30fps.

That said, I often find it distracting in a theater when theres a lot of side-to-side camera movement - I see the flicker.  bleah.


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## Arden (Aug 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by SoulCollector _
> *Thanks for the reply guys, SO then that being said..........Does that Mean the G5 will be a screaming GAMING machine..I MEAN damn look at the Bandwith and the front side Bus..its just Crazyyyyyyyyyyy....Will this architecture.....Do us Gamers Justice??????*


Trick a G5, any G5, out with a top-of-the-line graphics card and lots of RAM, and it will shred any game you throw at it without hesitation.


> *Also one more question...I have a Dual 1ghz.......G4.......blah blah..
> I want to get the G5..and yes in due time..
> But would like to also get the 9800pro...how much more...power does the Dual 1.42 have on my Dual 1ghz??? I mean in gaming wise...and would I see a drastic Performance from My Crappy Geforce 4MX?? Cuz man Im really wanting to get it......And please Break down Drastic for me??? If Anyone already has it.??????*


Okay, I'm confused... what are you asking?  Could you try to be a little clearer, like you were writing an essay or something?  I'd like to help you, but I don't understand what you're trying to say. 


> *Payceeeee..G5pimp *


Ha, don't you wish.   ::alien::


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## a2daj (Aug 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by brianleahy _
> *And keep in mind that movies (as in Hollywood, big screen) are only 24 fps, and NTSC videotaped programs are only 30fps.
> 
> That said, I often find it distracting in a theater when theres a lot of side-to-side camera movement - I see the flicker.  bleah. *



Movies also have motion blur in the frames which ends up helping with the illusion of fluid movement at lower framerates.
The interlaced nature of TVs helps hide the 30fps along with the motion blur.


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## mdnky (Aug 8, 2003)

The human eye is incapable of accurately seeing a difference above 60-80fps.  If you did a completely "blind" test with the same game on the same computer (out of the room where the monitor was) of 60fps and 120fps, I doubt anyone could actually tell the difference.  There may be "special circumstances" for certain effects, but in general it's a mood point.  It's a mental thing more likely, similar to a doctor using a plecebo.  Your mind plays tricks on you because you already know/think there's a difference.

In other words, if you get 60fps or so at the resolution you want with no problems, then that's all you need.  

Someone else mentioned this, and it is similar.  Why would you need a Corvette Z06 that's capable of doing 0-60mph in 4.3 seconds with a 170mph top speed?  The fastest you can go on the majority of US roads is between 50 and 70.  I can attest to having gone 150 in a buddies 01 Pontiac Firehawk before, and I will tell you, it's downright scary.  Esp. if you understand the mechanics involved in a wreck and the forces exherted.  In fact, it's something I'll never do again in a car that isn't a professionally designed race car on a track.

Interesting Tidbits:
------------------------
* National Television Standards Committee (NTSC) format: Used in the United States, Canada, Japan and elsewhere . (30fps)
*	Phase Alternation by Line (PAL) format: Used in European countries and other parts of the world. (25fps)
*	Systeme Couleur Avec Memoire (SECAM) format: Mostly used in Eastern European countries. (25fps)
* HDTV is approx 60fps

There's never been a true independant scientific test...most are done by manufacturers in which the idea of it mattering is in there best interest.  NVIDA and ATI want you to buy their latest card afterall.


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## Arden (Aug 9, 2003)

Believe me, I can tell the difference between 60 fps and 120 fps.  The 120 fps is the one that makes my eyes hurt less.  Or is that refresh rate for the monitor?  In any case, the more frames you can push, the better suited your computer is to handle rendering complex scenes with lots of particle effects, objects, etc. at high resolution with lots of details and graphic goodies.

And Chevy brought up the car thing.  In that case, more is not always better.


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## SoulCollector (Aug 19, 2003)

Well thanks for all the replies guys,
I was just wondering........If I should stay with my Dual 1ghz and buy a Radeon9800Pro....i mean I do photoshop and graphic design alot but then again at the end of the day i want to play some games...would this setup give me a reallly good gaming experience or just save and fork up for the Dual G5....i mean no more bottleneck..and we can really see the apple shine..on games..right???? LET ME KNOW..argh this Geforce 4MX is not cutting it for me...
G5pimpage...


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## Arden (Aug 19, 2003)

You'll probably notice a lot more responsiveness in a G5 than your current system, and this is probably what Apple is hoping for, but unless you need more speed and less waiting time, then you'll be fine with your current setup.  If you want to upgrade your graphics card, go for it.  If later you decide that you'd like the G5 after all, you can always drop the 9800 into it and go back to your old card on the G4.

Currently, the fastest machine I have to use for games is a 400 Mhz G3 iMac.  So there.


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## SoulCollector (Aug 19, 2003)

Hmm Arden ......are you sure I can go and put the Radeon from my Dual system to the G5..becuase that fact....on mine isnt it only 4AGP slot and on the G5 its 8AGP?????
hmmmm


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## mdnky (Aug 20, 2003)

SoulCollector, the 9800 is a 8x card but will work fine in 4x, just at the slower rate <G>.  Arden was trying to say if you decide to go with a G5 after that, you'll have the right card.  The BTO option for the 9800 is a $300 increase on the dual 2g G5, and $350 on the 1.6 nd 1.8g mg5s.  In other words...it might save you money.  www.owcomputing.com has the 4x/2x version of the 9800 for $387, didn't see a 8x version listed.  So what Arden said may or may not work, depends on finding an 8x version 9800.  May just be a typo on their site or ?!?

I would personally look at it this way....what do you use the mac for 1st, 2nd, then 3rd?  Do you need the increase in speed the G5 will bring you for any or all of those uses?  What is the financial situation currently, and does it warrant buying a new computer?  You could get between $1400 to $1800 (rough estimate) maybe for your current system.  A g5 1.8g with a ATI9600 (50$ up) is $2450.   If you sold yours for $1500 and bout the g5 for $2450, you need to find $950.  

The ati card alone was $390, so you'd be spending $560 more for the g5 than upgrading your current system but you'd be getting alot more too.  I'd personally buy the g5, it would make better sense in my situation when considering those factors if I had the same computer you currently do.


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## profx (Aug 20, 2003)

SoulCollector, do you have a stutter??

you seem to have a lot of "..."s!!!


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## Arden (Aug 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by profx _
> *SoulCollector, do you have a stutter??
> 
> you seem to have a lot of "..."s!!! *


Shut up.  That's uncalled for.

Mdnky: Go beige G3 towers!


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## a2daj (Aug 20, 2003)

Some facts about the Radeon 9800 Pro Mac editions (based on statements made by ATI employees).

1.  ATI Radeon 9800 Pro is a 4x AGP card.  It will run at 4x in the G5s.  It is available as a retail card only.

2.  Apple Radeon 9800 Pro (probably produced by ATI) is an 8x AGP *Pro* card.  It is keyed so that it will only fit in an 8x AGP Pro slot, namely the G5s.  It cannot fit in any G4.  It is available as an OEM card only.

3.  I own an ATI Radeon 9800 Pro.  It sits in my dual 1.2 GHz(Powerlogix) Quicksilver G4.  Works just fine.


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## SoulCollector (Aug 20, 2003)

LOL ..no I dont have a stutter..just like to type freely...just like if I was talking to somebody. I dont worry about grammatical errors or I mean if Im ending a run on sentence or something....I use this"...." for pausing but hey there ya go.  For the whole thing about the G5 and the card.  Well I own a Graphics and Printing Company, I have to check, design, and prep soo many files an d my rig now its OK...but would love to have the boost increase and the boost in gaming, I love to game online!!!! I wouldnt mine just jumping on my PC's here at the office but I would Love to just have everything I do..on MY APPLE..ya know...I think the Windows...interface  is just soo messy when I think about it...

Well have to see what will happen....


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## Arden (Aug 21, 2003)

G5 + losta losta, mucho mucho RAM + Radeon 9800 Pro 8x AGP = killer gaming machine.


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## mdnky (Aug 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by profx _
> *SoulCollector, do you have a stutter??
> 
> you seem to have a lot of "..."s!!! *



Hey...watch it. <G>   I love ...'s, they make it so easy to typo...er type.





> _Originally posted by arden _
> *Mdnky: Go beige G3 towers! *



It's a desktop...wish it was a tower sometimes though.

But hey, she runs X fine and PS7, ID2, Office X...albeit a tad slow, but does the job and never complains.  Always said I wouldn't upgrade untill the G5 came out...now I got a G5 on order.     Grinning/Smiling ear-to-ear too!





> _Originally posted by SoulCollector _
> *Well I own a Graphics and Printing Company, I have to check, design, and prep soo many files an d my rig now its OK...but would love to have the boost increase and the boost in gaming, I love to game online!!!! I wouldnt mine just jumping on my PC's here at the office but I would Love to just have everything I do..on MY APPLE..ya know...I think the Windows...interface  is just soo messy when I think about it...*



If it's going to be a business thing, then you def. better off going with new.  That $560 should shrink by another $200 with the tax deduction you can take on the machine.  So, now that's only a $360 difference, which is less than the card.   ((I am in no way a tax guy, so don't quote me on the estimate.   Sounds like a reasonable number given my circumstances of what I'd expect to get, yours might be less or more.))


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## SoulCollector (Aug 25, 2003)

HMM awww man..So the retail version of the Radeon9800Pro is only 4x, so their saying if I buy a G5, Stock and decide later for a Radeon9800 i can only run it as 4x...thats horrible. I thought they were doing it at 8xAGP retail and it was backward compatible with the 4xAGP....aww man now what should I do...........I wanted to just get the card.i cant wait for some ...video card goodness..but man....now Ill just have to wait if the retail card..is only gunna be 4xAGP..


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## Arden (Aug 25, 2003)

I was under the impression that 4x cards are compatible with 8x slots, and vice versa, but it would just operate at 4x.  This is still pretty fast, though, and while it doesn't beat the pants off 8x, it should suit you well.


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## SoulCollector (Aug 25, 2003)

Also...how much more difference is 9700 and the 9800.....??? Is it worth the price difference............last question..
LOL


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## mdnky (Aug 25, 2003)

The PC version is available as 8x.  I'm assuming they will eventually announce an aftermarket 8x version sometime after the G5s ship (last week), so maybe a month or two.  Why sell a 8x card for Macs until there are Macs capable of using it.

Everything I've seen says the 8x card will run in a 4x slot.  I haven't seen anything saying a 4x will on an 8x slot.  Anyone else know?


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## a2daj (Aug 27, 2003)

The Apple (read: OEM) Radeon 9800 Pro is an AGP 8x PRO card, which uses a longer connector than the non Pro AGP cards.  The AGP Pro slots will accept non Pro AGP cards but non AGP slots will not accept AGP Pro cards.
The Apple 9600 Pro is an AGP 8x card (non pro) but from my understanding it's designed to only run at 8x (probably per Apple's specifications) so it won't work correctly in G4s if pulled out of a G5.  Plus I think the ADC power slot is in a different position than the older ADC compatible cards.


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## SoulCollector (Aug 27, 2003)

WELPS> i did it guys I got myself a Radeon 9800pro on my Dual 1ghz...1.2 gigs...What Should I do to know the differences??????would rendering be better????

ILL post what i can..thanks guys

AND DAMN I Saw the G5 too at downtown LA>...at macmall.store..
it was a 1.6 ..that sucker is HUGGEEEE  didnt have time to bench it.......but they told me they wont even seeee duals.....probably until DECEMBER!!! I was like NOWWWAYYY..so will see whats up..witht that...


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## Arden (Aug 27, 2003)

So you want to compare your old card to your new card?  One at a time, hook them up to your monitor, then run a game like Quake 3 or Unreal Tournament with FPS on.  Be sure to set each to the exact same settings so you don't skew the results.

For benchmarking, check out the products at http://www.versiontracker.com/mp/ne...&mode=Quick&OS_Filter=MacOSX&search=benchmark.


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## SoulCollector (Aug 28, 2003)

Well........on my Comp with the Radeon9800 what type of FPS should I be getting on high?? I heard this card. works good on high res????
Also what would be the best Video setup for UT2003????


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## Arden (Aug 28, 2003)

I really don't know... try the real-world tests for yourself; if you're getting 30 fps or lower at high or even medium resolution and detail, something's wrong.


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## SoulCollector (Aug 28, 2003)

HMM i did lots of testing...Seems on UT2003..its a bit CPU intensive....I would get below that or even less on high everything.........SO I was like wha????
it was on the Demo....I was thinking..the Card is just outpacing my DUal 1ghzG4....is this G4 too slow??? then I did High on Spearhead Demo...that sucker was freakkkingggg nice..i didnt know the FPS check on SP but man that sucker was smoooth........and vibrant.....i did other games like Warcraft 3..on HIGH..it was nice....smooth..but the UT2003 was the one buggin.me even Americas Army was the same..so it brought me to the conclusion that the UT engine is very Data CPU extensive..and the bottleneck on the G4..is not putting it to the card fast enough....I think.but Let me know..your thoughts or if Im doing anything wrong....


Thanks


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## Arden (Aug 28, 2003)

UT2K3 is a new game, and new, graphics-intensive games like this usually tax current systems quite a bit.  The best option, though usually the most expensive and least possible, is to upgrade, either your processor, RAM and video card (which you just got), or a new computer.  However, barring that, you can try tweaking your system to use less CPU cycles and RAM, and tweaking your game to be less demanding.

Test your system with Quake 3, as this is the de-facto for comparing fps's (frames per second) on FPS's (first-person shooters).  You should get excellent results, as you did with most of the other games you tried.


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## a2daj (Aug 29, 2003)

You can compare your numbers to ones I posted at IMG a month ago.

http://www.insidemacgames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=99315#99315


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## brianleahy (Sep 15, 2003)

Just had to post this link onto this thread:


http://bbspot.com/News/2003/09/tachyon.html

Think this'll be enough fps?


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## BitWit (Sep 15, 2003)

back to the original question, I guess the advantage to having more fps (beyond the human rate of recognition) is that inevitably some game somewhere will slow it down with extra monsters, or features etc. So a higher baseline is desired to ensure it never dips down below the human recognition rate when taxed with complex scenes.


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## Arden (Sep 15, 2003)

> It also has a 380 THz clock speed, 128TB of DDR memory, 2048-bit memory interface, Microsoft(r) DirectX(r) 90.0 support, and *OpenGL(r)2.0* support.


 Heh, some technologies only advance so quickly.  I guess if it's registered, it's not open anymore.


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## SoulCollector (Sep 16, 2003)

Doh..so does that mean the Tachyon Card.... will be available for mac?????
Hmm OpenGl2.0 eh..
Are we running the OpenGl2.0 right now?
If not you think  that would improve FPS performance in our Macgaming>????


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## brianleahy (Sep 16, 2003)

Well, it might, but as the article said:

"The Great Crystalline Entity Chang also warned that users wear protective clothing if they are within one and a half light years of the card. "

It's not easy to operate a mouse through a bulky radiation suit, so...


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