# Dock Or Taskbar?!



## ~~NeYo~~ (May 14, 2002)

...which is For you, and "WHY"!!! 

...What advantages does one have, over the other?! 

NeYo


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## nkuvu (May 14, 2002)

Uh, Dock.  Because it's not MS.  

And it looks better.  And I have dock apps like X3 (a cpu monitor).


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## Timan (May 14, 2002)

God I HATE WINDOWS!!!!






Plus windows users can't make shit their selfs all they do is port something from osx :S ACK IT PISSES ME OFF! that i was once like that :S


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## ~~NeYo~~ (May 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Timan _
> *God I HATE WINDOWS!!!!
> 
> 
> ...



i'm sure i'll be speaking from u're POV soon!  
...Looking forward 2 the Summer!! 

NeYo


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## ~~NeYo~~ (May 15, 2002)

MAN! ... i love that Grass, can someone fix me up with a link, i was Grass from the Day i have my Mac! 

Neyo


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## nkuvu (May 15, 2002)

I believe that these are just icons -- you can find them (Mac versions, anyway) at xicons.com.  Here's a link to the search results: http://xicons.macnn.com/search.php?form_type=search&keywords=lawn&author=

I don't know how to install them on OS X, but I guess you wouldn't need those instructions anyway.


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## ~~NeYo~~ (May 15, 2002)

thanks man! it DOES look totally Superb!!! 

NeYo

Edit! ...HANG ON! these Are "just icons" ? Woah! ... (idea springs 2 mind!)


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## hazmat (May 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Timan _
> *Plus windows users can't make shit their selfs all they do is port something from osx :S ACK IT PISSES ME OFF! that i was once like that :S *



Chill out and realize how ridiculous you sound.  I've been using DOS since 4.01 and Windows since 3.0 and all my favorite programs on it have had nothing to do with Mac OS other than the fact that maybe there were also versions (read: ports) for it.  Let's see.  I still wish a browser on OS X would perform as well as IE does for Windows.  One of my favorite all-time apps is SecureCRT.  Nothing I have seen on the Mac can compare for SSH.  I would be the happiest person in the world if I had a replacement for Terminal.app that worked like SecureCRT.  I have some mpegs that Quicktime completely screws up.  Any other app plays them fine, but I had to dig hard to find one for OS X, and the only one (VLC) is very choppy.  Media Player for Windows, and any other, besides Quicktime, plays them without flinching.  Overall I am really happy with OS X and love the Unix environment with a great GUI, but as much as I try and keep quiet when people here bash Windows for absolutely ridiculous reasons, sometime I can't.  All OS's do some things better than others.  Face it.  Accept it.  You'll sound a lot more intelligent once you do.  There is no one perfect OS, but some suck less than others.


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## Timan (May 15, 2002)

one thing you don't knwo where i come from. i did macxp and help run aqua-soft.org that was what we did . we converted like every osx icon and port it to xp. same with themes and progs. its jsut a shame like you see on www.neowin.net how people convert stuff without permission these days.


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## simX (May 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ~~NeYo~~ _
> *...which is For you, and "WHY"!!!
> 
> ...What advantages does one have, over the other?!
> ...



If you can even think of comparing the Dock to the taskbar, you are seriously delusional.....

1) The Dock is 1000000x more beautiful.

2) The Dock can magnify, while retaining many items, so you can always figure out what it's holding, unlike the Taskbar where you have to expand it to use half your screen to read the headings on the things in the taskbar.

3) You can't issue commands from the taskbar like you can from the Dock.

4) The Dock can hold everything  applications, aliases, documents, folders, web URLs, minimized windows  whereas the taskbar can only hold minimized windows and a few shortcuts.

5) The Dock gives you visual feedback about applications.  If they are dimmed, the app is hidden.  If there's a black triangle underneath an app's icon, it is open.  If it's bouncing up and down continuously and regularly, it's currently launching.  If it's bouncing and then coming to a rest with littler bounces, the application wants your attention.  Some apps like Mail.app have badges that allow you to quickly see how many unread e-mails/IMs you have in that application.

6) All open applications appear in the Dock, and you can issue commands to all of them.  This contrasts to the taskbar where you only have minimized apps/windows in the Dock.

Need I go on?  I think it's obvious that the Dock is so much better, and there is no comparison at all between the taskbar and the Dock.

By the way, one look at my avatar, and that's all you need to know.


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## hazmat (May 15, 2002)

simX, I'll give you most of that, but I need to comment on some.   The Dock is definitely more beautiful.  And for me more functional, at the cost of more screen real estate.  I love the access to each app's open windows in the Dock.  It wasn't until XP that MS gave you that, but as I commented in another thread, unless I'm missing something, as I haven't played much with XP, the taskbar grouping is conditional, and I didn't see how to make it always do that.  And the Dock is A LOT more elegant than the taskbar.  Apps in the taskbar get your attention by flashing, where the Dock icons bounce.  Personal opinion which is less annoying.   And taskbar icons do change if designed to.  Eudora ever since Qualcomm released a 32-bit version would change when there was new mail.  And some stuff puts itself into the system tray.  Something like AIM is VERY nicely controlled by its icon there.  I can get to almost everything I need from it.  Same for WinAmp.  Not sure what you mean by issuing commands to the Dock apps, but you can actually drag and drop stuff onto taskbar items.  And though I always turned off the quick launch icons, I would bet you can drop stuff onto them as well.  And the Start menu is quite customizeable.  But, overall, I do find the Dock nicer to use.  I do wish I had more control over the apps from the context menus, though.


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## simX (May 15, 2002)

Admittedly, I can't say I've used XP at all, but I have used Windows 2000.  That's where all my knowledge springs from.

When I say you issue commands to certain applications, control-click on the iTunes icon (when it is open).  Without switching apps, and even if it is hidden, you can see what song is playing, and you can play/pause, or go to the next or previous song.  You can even control the shuffling settings.  Since there is an API to give you Dock menus, any application can do this.  Proteus, the multi-instant-messaging-service-application, does this as well.  Same with SlashDock (that's what's it's DESIGNED for -- news right within your Dock).  That's what I mean by issuing commands to applications.  Sure, in Windows you can drag and drop things onto applications, but you can do that with the Dock as well.  But, unless XP has some serious advancements with the taskbar that I have so far not heard about, the Dock is far more superior in this point alone.


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## hazmat (May 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by simX _
> *Admittedly, I can't say I've used XP at all, but I have used Windows 2000.  That's where all my knowledge springs from.
> 
> When I say you issue commands to certain applications, control-click on the iTunes icon (when it is open).  Without switching apps, and even if it is hidden, you can see what song is playing, and you can play/pause, or go to the next or previous song.  You can even control the shuffling settings.  Since there is an API to give you Dock menus, any application can do this.  Proteus, the multi-instant-messaging-service-application, does this as well.  Same with SlashDock (that's what's it's DESIGNED for -- news right within your Dock).  That's what I mean by issuing commands to applications.  Sure, in Windows you can drag and drop things onto applications, but you can do that with the Dock as well.  But, unless XP has some serious advancements with the taskbar that I have so far not heard about, the Dock is far more superior in this point alone. *



Windows Taskbar items can do this as well, all the way back to NT, and probably 95 as well.  Two that come to mind are Eudora and SecureCRT.  IIRC, all Eudora has in it is to check mail.  Maybe it has more in later versions.  SecureCRT has a few options, like toggling the menu bar, since you can't get it back otherwise (besides right-clicking on the title bar) once it's gone.  So it's possible, but not all apps have it put in.  Like in OS X.  Ones like iTunes seem to be exceptions in this respect, just like the ones in Windows.  I really hope to see more use of this functionality in future OS X apps.


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## simX (May 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by hazmat _
> *
> 
> Windows Taskbar items can do this as well, all the way back to NT, and probably 95 as well.  Two that come to mind are Eudora and SecureCRT.  IIRC, all Eudora has in it is to check mail.  Maybe it has more in later versions.  SecureCRT has a few options, like toggling the menu bar, since you can't get it back otherwise (besides right-clicking on the title bar) once it's gone.  So it's possible, but not all apps have it put in.  Like in OS X.  Ones like iTunes seem to be exceptions in this respect, just like the ones in Windows.  I really hope to see more use of this functionality in future OS X apps. *



Well it seems like Eudora and SecureCRT are the only apps that use them, because I've never seen them on any other apps in Windows.  I've also never used either of these two apps, so that would explain why I haven't seen them.

By the way, don't forget about all the Docklings out there.  Those are invaluable in the Dock (even though the slow it down as all heck).


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## hazmat (May 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by simX _
> *
> 
> Well it seems like Eudora and SecureCRT are the only apps that use them, because I've never seen them on any other apps in Windows.  I've also never used either of these two apps, so that would explain why I haven't seen them.
> ...



Come on, there have to be more apps out there that make use of this functionality.  SecureCRT and Eudora are the only ones I personally can think of that use it.

What do you mean about docklings slowing it down?  I guess the only one I use besides Clock, if you consider that a dockling, is Memory Monitor.  Nothing seems slower than before.


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## hazmat (May 15, 2002)

I don't have a lot of stuff installed on my Win2k partition right now,  but I found a couple more things with more options in the context menus.  The Command Prompt window has it, as well as the System Information window.  IIRC, Outlook has it as well.  I may be wrong on that, though.


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## fryke (May 15, 2002)

One big disadvantage of the Dock is that because it's centered (I know, I know - TinkerTool) your automatic mouse movements will go to the wrong place at times when the Dock grows. You can't 'remember' the exact position of the Finder icon, for example, because it wanders.

The Quickstart Links in Windows' Taskbar are at fixed positions which make that easier. Please, before you start to answer, read my post *again* and think about *exactly* what I said.


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## serpicolugnut (May 15, 2002)

> The Quickstart Links in Windows' Taskbar are at fixed positions which make that easier. Please, before you start to answer, read my post *again* and think about *exactly* what I said.



Yeah, the quickstart links do stay in place, but, if you open more than 8 or 9 Windows, you quickly have a bunch of items in the taskbar and you can't read what they are, let alone get alook at their icon unless you expand the taskbar up (if you have it on the bottom).

People continue to slam the OS X Dock, but compared with everything else out there (Windows Taskbar, UNIX Shelf, etc.), it's the best implementation so far of any dock/shelf type tool. 

I'd still like to see the option to turn off the hovering text (or at least be able to set a delay before it pops up), and I'd like it to stay static and stretch across the entire portion of the screen it occupies, and have newly added icons/apps/docs/etc expand out from left to right. That way you can develop motor memory in using it, and not have to hunt for items as the dock grows larger/smaller.


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## Hypernate (May 15, 2002)

I have to say, when I first converted over to Mac, I missed my taskbar. I was very used to using it, dragging files onto the buttons (incidentally, you can't drag onto quick launch items).

However, I now HATE the taskbar, and I love the dock. For me, it's what I'm used to. When i first saw OS X, I HATED it, probably mainly because of the dock. Then i saw it in life, rather than screenshots, and loved it. 

The dock only has a couple of downfalls, but nothing is as close to perfect as it. Or as customizable through hacks.


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## nkuvu (May 15, 2002)

I've never had problems hitting the icon I want in the Dock, even when it moves.  I guess I don't see what the big deal is about things moving around.

One thing I hate about the taskbar (among many things, actually).  If you have a deep item, and you're in the process of drilling down to get it, one application that has a message will switch focus and you'll be dropped from the Start menu.  I _hate_ it when apps switch the focus.  I will do the switching, thank you.  Don't interrupt me for your stupid messages.  I also really dislike how in pre-Win2K systems (WinNT for example) applications that need attention will flash in the taskbar until you click on them.  At least in Win2K it will flash three times then stop (and stay highlighted).

I would like to be able to turn off the text, but it doesn't realy bother me that much.  I used to use WindowMaker on my BSD box, so the Dock concept is a familiar and welcome one.


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## RyanLang (May 15, 2002)

AHHAHAHa, that grass dock that neyo poseted was mine! man that seems like a while ago. I changed the finder face to an apple!? aww i like the orginal look way better now  no more grass on this side of the fence


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## hazmat (May 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by fryke _
> *One big disadvantage of the Dock is that because it's centered (I know, I know - TinkerTool) your automatic mouse movements will go to the wrong place at times when the Dock grows. You can't 'remember' the exact position of the Finder icon, for example, because it wanders.*



Interesting.  I never had that problem.  I keep the Dock on the right edge, and when I want a Finder window, I simply look over and click on the topmost icon.  I think it's all getting used to a different situation.  When I came over to the Mac from Windows, there were a lot of things that really threw me, and have taken a lot of getting used to.  Now when I am using Windows, it will take getting used to for the opposite reasons.


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## dlookus (May 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by fryke _
> *One big disadvantage of the Dock is that because it's centered (I know, I know - TinkerTool) your automatic mouse movements will go to the wrong place at times when the Dock grows. You can't 'remember' the exact position of the Finder icon, for example, because it wanders.*



I agree with this completely.

I know it goes against Apple's idea of simplicity, and I know this has been talked aboput before, but I think 2 docks makes sense.

I would have 1 dock for apps. It would be pinned, so that the apps you have as persistent will never move. The dock would just grow as you open apps that aren't persistent.

The other dock would be for volumes and windows/folders. Same Idea. Pinned so the persistent volumes/windows/folders never move. Only minimized windows or new Volumes get added to the end.

I really think this makes sense. The only problem, of course, is screen real estate, but I'm sure that could be dealt with.

What do you think?


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## dricci (May 15, 2002)

I keep my dock on the right and turned magnification off, and I never have a problem clicking or draging over to it, I usually don't even have to look since I can get a good idea of the icon from the corner of my eye.

I never had a problem doing this when it was on the bottom with magnification on, either.

The Windows XP and Windows 2000 taskbars (which I've used both) seem like such a toy to me, I mean, only minimized apps can go there? Why!? I want organization, not a bunch of scattered minimized Windows with no way to just access the app directly! Ah well, I guess that goes along with the "Full Screen Way, or No way" attitude Windows developers have.

BTW, the new drag-windows-out-of-dock feature in Jaguar is really nice, I kinda wish they would have left the "throw" feature in to throw icons to the side of the screen. I guess a bunch of Windows-converted-to-mac-developers complained


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## nkuvu (May 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by dricci _
> *The Windows XP and Windows 2000 taskbars (which I've used both) seem like such a toy to me, I mean, only minimized apps can go there? Why!? I want organization, not a bunch of scattered minimized Windows with no way to just access the app directly! *


Um, what?  Minimized windows only on the taskbar?  That's not how it is on Windows.

For example, I am at work (on WinNT, but I assure you that the other flavors of Windows work the same way) using Opera.  Look over there, Opera is the second-to-last app listed on the taskbar.  It's not minimized, I am typing in it.  Here's a screenshot .  And Visual SlickEdit is not minimized either, and it's on the taskbar...

Did I misunderstand you?

(p.s. Sorry for the poor quality -- it's still almost 100K)


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## dricci (May 15, 2002)

Yes, but in Apps like Netscape, Outlook, and even NotePad, the main window is attached to that icon. So if you try to close it, the whole app goes down. I can't just close the main Window and expect the app to stay opened because it'll think I want it to quit.


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## nkuvu (May 15, 2002)

Ahh, I understand now.  That's not a problem with the taskbar, it's a problem with the OS metaphor.

Apple has a perpetual menu bar at the top.  So an app that doesn't have a window open can still be open, its commands are on the menu.  Since Windows doesn't have this reserved space, an app has to have a window open at all times to be able to display its commands.  The taskbar does reflect this, since it show all open windows.  If Windows had the menu bar, the taskbar wouldn't have to show each open application.  Therefore, it's not the fault of the taskbar, but of the OS.

I know, it's a nit to pick, but still...


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## vanguard (May 15, 2002)

I like the dock better.  It's better looking and it does a better job of showing me everything when I have a lot of apps open.

Yeah, the dock gets knocked for taking a lot of room but in windows i have to make it three rows high to properly display all the apps I have open.

One area where the mac doesn't do as well is the alt-tab/command-tab.  In windows, it cycles through based on how recently I used the apps.  On the mac, it cycles through in the order I have them in the dock.

For me, the windows way is much better.  Most of the time I want to switch back and forth between apps.  Apple doesn't provice a nice way to do this from the keyboard (that I know of).  

Anyway, to me switching between apps seemed dock related.  Hopefully this isn't off-topic.


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## celeborn (May 15, 2002)

After a while of using OS X I started to dislike the lack of organisation the dock offers. So, currently I use DragThing (marvelous app with lots of other great features too) to keep my favorite apps and I only use the Dock for showing active apps and a link to my partitions and my Downloads folder. I also use ASM to hide the dock automatically in certain apps as my 1024x768 screen can get pretty crowded sometimes.

The great thing about DragThing is also the fact that it doesn't float obtrusively over everything else, but comes instantly to the top when I move the mouse to a specified "hotspot" corner.


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## hazmat (May 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by dlookus _
> *
> The other dock would be for volumes and windows/folders. Same Idea. Pinned so the persistent volumes/windows/folders never move. Only minimized windows or new Volumes get added to the end.
> *



I see no point in minimized windows for OS X.  IMO, a complete waste of space.  You can get to all of an app's windows from its context menu.


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## fryke (May 16, 2002)

I also hardly ever minimize windows on OS X. The only place where I actually do is Photoshop. When I'm working on two projects at the same time, each with two Photoshop documents (so a total of 4 open windows). Then I minimize the two windows of one project to solely work on the two others of the other project. (Hmm... It *sounds* complicated, but is easy, really.)


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## dlookus (May 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by hazmat _
> *I see no point in minimized windows for OS X.  IMO, a complete waste of space.  You can get to all of an app's windows from it's context menu. *


I agree with you actually. I just didn't want to throw that in there.
They should make it a preference. Maybe it's not so bad if you have a Cinema Display HD.


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## hazmat (May 16, 2002)

fryke: That's a good idea, actually.  I use WindowShade X to hide with the minimize button.  Since you can do it also on a per-app basis, I made Photoshop minimize to the Dock.  We'll see how that works.

dlookus: A preference would be awesome.  I would rather be able to made individual windows hide rather than the whole app, but I find it better overall hiding than minimizing to the Dock.


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## ~~NeYo~~ (May 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RyanLang _
> *AHHAHAHa, that grass dock that neyo poseted was mine! man that seems like a while ago. I changed the finder face to an apple!? aww i like the orginal look way better now  no more grass on this side of the fence *



haha! Nice man, i love it, its So Different!!! 

I've Got something, thanks 2 a Friend of mine, amd it looks Pretty Good, but i'm trying to get it, more "dynamic", and this instance, i'm customizing it, to Do email Checking, and Work, simply in the same way Mail.app works in the Dock! 

what i am After At the moment, is a 128*128 TIFF, of Mail.app with an Email Notification! That'd be GREAT!! 

...Here's How thing Look At this Stage...

NeYo


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## deagle five o (May 16, 2002)

for the most part this thread is showing the pure ignorance that mac users go thru. _MS SUCKS, AND THATS THAT._

Please no flaming, Im as much as a mac advocate as all of you. The problem is that most mac users blindly follow whatever the company says, pretty much like clones.

The truth is that the taskbar , while not beeing as pretty as the dock, does have more functionality. it is more compact, more flexible with menus and tasks, as well as integrated options. The taskbar is hands down better. HOWEVER  , MS has had the luxury of fine tunning the Taskbar for the past 7 years, while the dock is a relatively new thing to Apple.  Apple needs to find a way to take out the menu bar and integrate it into the dock ( I'll do some photoshop to illustrate what Im talking about. ) this will also help window users cross the line.

How you ask?

Easy. The number one reason that the PC users find macs to be so difficult is because the desktop , although similiar in someways, it highly differs from the explorer shell of windows. Starting with the tastbar.
Even adding something as simple as a contextual menu to the dock "finder" icon, would make a big diffrence, in my eyes.


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## nkuvu (May 16, 2002)

From the Jargon file:


> "Come on, everyone! If the above doesn't set off the  Troll-O-Meter, we're going to have to get him to run around with a big blinking sign saying 'I am a troll, I'm only in it for the controversy and flames' and shooting random gobs of Jell-O(tm) at us before the point is proven."






> The problem is that most mac users blindly follow whatever the company says, pretty much like clones.


Unfortunately, I am not a clone.  Nor have I found anyone in these fora who would qualify for that insult.


> The truth is that the taskbar , while not beeing as pretty as the dock, does have more functionality. _(snip)_ The taskbar is hands down better.


The real truth is that this is an opinion.  Which is the purpose of this thread, I believe...


> Even adding something as simple as a contextual menu to the dock "finder" icon, would make a big diffrence, in my eyes.


Uh, there _is_ a contextual menu for all Dock items.  Heard of control-clicking?


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## deagle five o (May 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nkuvu _
> *Uh, there is a contextual menu for all Dock items.  Heard of control-clicking? *



Dont belittle me. No kinding theres a con-menu. It lists the open windows. Super  . Im talking functionality, and being flexible : _IE_, Finder options. An application menu. User info & settings. Ect.

We boast all this UNIX power, and dont show it.

_ I know a few things. One of them is that its not how you stand by your car,  its how you race your car_ - fast & the furious. ( not the greatest quote, but suitable )


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## ~~NeYo~~ (May 16, 2002)

<< Ignoring any Quarrels >>

YAY! I've Updated my XP Grass Dock, looks PERFECT Now! 
hehe

NeYo


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## deagle five o (May 16, 2002)

horribly crude , but i'd like to see something along these lines.


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## hazmat (May 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by deagle five o _
> *horribly crude , but i'd like to see something along these lines. *



So where do the menu bar items go?


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## deagle five o (May 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by hazmat _
> *
> 
> So where do the menu bar items go? *



same place they've always been , i photoshoped that aswell , but i just didnt feel like uploading it


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## RacerX (May 16, 2002)

Sorry, but there is a reason that the Apple Menu is in the upper left corner of the display. Repeating Microsoft's bad interface design (which was done because they were trying to be _different_ from the Mac OS) is not going to help market share. Also it has been shown that people recognize icons faster than text (which was why the NeXT dock and the Apple dock both use icons, and MS was again trying not to look like they had taken idea's from other operating systems when they chose text).

All of this is painfully academic. The only thing that Apple did that was poor design with the dock was it's default positioning (which really should be in the same place as the NeXT dock along the right side of the screen, pinned at the top). Everything displayed on the screen should work their way out from the upper left corner, which means that the one area were there is the most open space is on the right side of the screen (which is because most screens are wider than they are tall, and most documents are actually taller than they are wide). From this, the most important menu to the system should be in the upper left corner, which why the Apple Menu has been there for the past 18 years.


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## hazmat (May 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RacerX _
> *All of this is painfully academic. The only thing that Apple did that was poor design with the dock was it's default positioning (which really should be in the same place as the NeXT dock along the right side of the screen, pinned at the top). Everything displayed on the screen should work their way out from the upper left corner, which means that the one area were there is the most open space is on the right side of the screen (which is because most screens are wider than they are tall, and most documents are actually taller than they are wide). From this, the most important menu to the system should be in the upper left corner, which why the Apple Menu has been there for the past 18 years. *



Only problem I see with the Dock at the top right (I do keep it on the right edge) is the menu bar being on top.  I don't like it up there against it, though I have tried it.  If there were no menu bar, I think I would be happy with it up there.


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## deagle five o (May 17, 2002)

i guess its pretty much everyone's own prefrence, however i do think the dock could be a little more.


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## twyg (May 17, 2002)

deagle.

Check your "PM's" please. 

I have sent you one regarding your signature. It cannot stay in it's current state as per the rules of the board.

Please change it to something less offensive please.


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## natecook1000 (May 19, 2002)

Regardless of your position on the issue, AskTog has a relevant column that is interesting to read (Bruce Tognazzini is a HCI designer and founder of Apple's Human Interface Group, so I think he's credible):

http://www.asktog.com/columns/044top10docksucks.html

For me, the Dock works great if I'm only using it to keep track of the apps I have open.  DragThing works much better and more cleanly for actually organizing apps, folders and files, so with the combo I'm unstoppable.

The plus on the TaskBar side is that it gives so much functionality all at once, between the application shortcuts and the system tray (is that what it's called?)... But it just doesn't make me smile like the Dock does.


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