# World Cup 2006



## bbloke (Jun 11, 2006)

We have quite a diverse range of nationalities represented here, so I was wondering how many people are following the World Cup 2006 (football/soccer).

England seemed to have started as they mean to go on, by showing flashes of greatness mixed with some poor performance too!  I didn't expect Ivory Coast to do as well as they did against Argentina, nor did I expect Trinidad and Tobago to hold off Sweden to a 0-0 draw...

For those who are interested, you can obtain a World Cup widget, named "FIFA World Cup 2006 Schedule Dashboard Widget," at:

http://headphono.us/fifa-world-cup-2006-schedule-dashboard-widget/

and a more in-depth program, named "Germany2006," at:

http://www.e-link.it/germany2006/download_en.html


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## nixgeek (Jun 12, 2006)

Yeah, Argentina always seems to lose steam towards the end, which is why Ivory Coast was able to get in that goal.  It never fails with Argentina. 

And yes, my ethnicity is from Argentina though I was born here in the US. 

I'm DVRing the USA vs. Czech Republic game so I can watch it after work.

I was also happy to see T&T move to the next round.  I hope they make it far enough if not towards the end.


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## fryke (Jun 12, 2006)

"move to the next round"? We're _not_ quite there yet. Cup system only starts after the group round. 

I'm of course all for Switzerland this time (it's not _that_ often that we're part of the World Cup), but I guess it'll be hard to beat Brazil for _any_ team this year - and I've been a fan of their team all my life, really - so I guess and hope they'll win. Unless Switzerland would make it to the finals that is. Then I couldn't help but be happy for any team to win.


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## nixgeek (Jun 12, 2006)

fryke said:
			
		

> "move to the next round"? We're _not_ quite there yet. Cup system only starts after the group round.



Poor choice of words I guess, but you know what I mean.


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## bbloke (Jun 12, 2006)

The commentary I'd heard snippets of seemed to imply the Argentina vs. Ivory Coast match might have been the best so far (OK, the tournament has only just started!) and that Ivory Coast actually played very well.  

I also hear the US team has been getting much better over the years, so it will be interesting to see how they do this time round.

England certainly seemed to "run out of steam" (or produce too much of it when overheating!) against Paraguay.  Mmm, never watch England play if you have a heart condition!

Maybe the Swiss will have an advantage: living up in chalets in those Alps, and therefore producing more red blood cells.


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## nixgeek (Jun 12, 2006)

I do agree that Ivory Coast played a great game, but they did kind of lose steam at the end.  They were dominating the ball considerably during the first halg, but for moments of the second half they were just standing around waiting for the ball.

Speaking of the World Cup, I'm going to try and set up a box to stream the games so I don't miss them while I'm here at work.  Sure, I can DVR it but it's not like watching them live, even if it is from your computer.


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## fryke (Jun 12, 2006)

Thank God for working from my home office.  ... Japan 1:0 Australia - first half. Now let's see whether Australia can come back in the second half.


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## bbloke (Jun 12, 2006)

fryke said:
			
		

> Thank God for working from my home office.  ... Japan 1:0 Australia - first half. Now let's see whether Australia can come back in the second half.


And the final result...........   

(I'm not going to spoil it for anyone who might be wanting to watch the highlights today.)


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## CaptainQuark (Jun 12, 2006)

*I HATE FOOTBALL!*

So does my wife, but for some weird and wonderful reason she wants to watch the World Cup.

Talk about role-reversal!


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## fryke (Jun 12, 2006)

Hehe... Hm. What: Now we _can't_ talk about results? The game USA vs. Czech Rep. is in its final minutes and I _want_ to talk about the result... *grin* Well, okay: If you don't want to know the result, don't read below the next line.

SPOILER...

Okay. I think that at the beginning of the game, after the first Czech goal, the USA didn't even look that bad. The end result maybe doesn't reflect the game completely, but I guess the USA have to admit that there simply was much more class to the Czechs' game. 0:3 might sound harsh, though... Game finished now, so that's the end result, as well.


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## nixgeek (Jun 12, 2006)

CaptainQuark said:
			
		

> *I HATE FOOTBALL!*



Well, so do I.  I prefer to watch futbol/soccer. ::ha::


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## fryke (Jun 12, 2006)

ah, the americans.  "soccer" is "football". what you _hate_ is "american football" for the rest of the world. but you knew that already, i guess.


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## nixgeek (Jun 12, 2006)

fryke said:
			
		

> ah, the americans.  "soccer" is "football". what you _hate_ is "american football" for the rest of the world. but you knew that already, i guess.



BUT OF COURSE!!  I've known this since I was a wee lad.

I was just harassing CQ as per the daily usual. ::ha::


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## nixgeek (Jun 12, 2006)

To add, I still to this day don't understand why it's called "football" when referring to American football if the foot is barely ever used.


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## fryke (Jun 12, 2006)

Btw.: Italy vs. Ghana is quite certainly the best match at the World Cup 2006 so far. Let's hope that the second half will bring more goals - but otherwise just more of the same. 's been good! (1:0 for Italy so far.)


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## fryke (Jun 12, 2006)

Okay. Second half s*cks. Those should've been _two_ penalties for Ghana.


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## bbloke (Jun 13, 2006)

Everyone should by now have had a chance to view the highlights if they could not watch the games live, so I'll talk quite freely of the scores now!  I felt sorry for Japan, leading 1-0 until the final few minutes, and then conceding three!   

Italy beating Ghana 2-0 was not really unexpected for me, but I didn't watch the match, so I don't know how well it went for both sides in terms of the flow of play.  

Commiserations to the USA, having been beaten 3-0 by the Czech Republic.  I don't know how much better the US team is now, compared to a few years ago, but the Czechs have often been quite a strong team.

Ooooh, France vs. Switzerland today, eh?


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## fryke (Jun 13, 2006)

Yeppers...  ... That's gonna be an adrenaline rush for me.


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## bbloke (Jun 13, 2006)

I think most of the English population will be cheering on Switzerland.


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## mw84 (Jun 13, 2006)

I don't think the Japs should of had that goal allowed, from what I saw the keeper was definitely shoved out of the way!

Just caught the second half of Togo v Korea match, surprisingly good to watch. I think the Togo striker, Adebayor should of been taken off at some point though. He was constantly standing offside and hardly moving at all. He would play a ball to someone then instead of moving he'd just stand in the same spot and they'd loose possession needlessly. 

Looking forward to Englands next match on Thursday.


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## bbloke (Jun 13, 2006)

Yeah, I heard the goal scored by the Japanese was a little dodgy...  I didn't see the match, so I can't really comment.  I'm cringing as far as England's next few matches go.  Of course it is most exciting for me when England plays, but I was worried they were not playing as convincingly as they should do.  I don't know if it is the heat, the injuries, the tactics, or something else.


*Potential spoiler:*
France  0 -  0 Switzerland    so far (24 minutes gone).  Good to see the Swiss holding their own thus far!


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## fryke (Jun 13, 2006)

And that's all both teams did until the end.  ... I guess both think that they will beat the other two teams, and so the 0:0 in the first game would be enough for both to reach the next round... I certainly _hope_ so for Switzerland. Either way: Nothing lost yet. Yay! 

Now for Brazil vs. Croatia.


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## Rhisiart (Jun 13, 2006)

It goes without saying that I would like to see Wales play in the World Cup. The problem is we're not very good at football/soccer. I've never quite worked out why, but I blame Gary Sprake (see image).

Therefore as a Brit, I am obviously supporting England. I just hope they don't bottle out.

"Herself" hates footy. My oldest daughter wants Brazil to win. My youngest daughter calls a dressing gown a watering can, so what more can I say?


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## reed (Jun 15, 2006)

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,421130,00.html

 May the best team (oops, country) win. In Paris there was total silence for 90 or so minutes. You know the reason why. A real joy in such a noisy city.


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## Esquilinho (Jun 15, 2006)

mw84 said:
			
		

> I think the Togo striker, Adebayor should of been taken off at some point though. He was constantly standing offside and hardly moving at all. He would play a ball to someone then instead of moving he'd just stand in the same spot and they'd loose possession needlessly.



Well, I guess Togo can be considered a modest team Surely their game play is not as sofisticated as that from more experient teams, with more experient players, like France or England.


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## bbloke (Jun 16, 2006)

Eeek, although England won 2-0, it was a close run thing with the match between England and Trinidad and Tobago!  To be fair, Trinidad and Tobago did have virtually their entire team in their own half most of the time, and sheer numbers of their players in the penalty area made it difficult for England to get near the goal!  

Crouch's goal was OK, but, to me, Gerrard's goal was the sort of thing we are used to in the Premier League, and the sort of thing we expect from an England team playing to their potential.  I think they still aren't working together very well and they still make too many mistakes.  They did, however, play a lot better once Rooney and Lennon were on, probably because there was more pace, the formation was broader, and because Lampard and Gerrard were more able to do their own thing again.

With regards to the Sweden - Paraguay match, I was hoping for a draw, for "selfish" reasons.  Sweden, to their credit, did keep trying and eventually had the breakthrough.


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## Esquilinho (Jun 16, 2006)

6-0??? Geeezz! Is this still normal??


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## bbloke (Jun 16, 2006)

Esquilinho said:
			
		

> 6-0??? Geeezz! Is this still normal??




Wow, is Argentina really *that* good at the moment?!  (I didn't see the match.)


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## nixgeek (Jun 16, 2006)

Good God!!!  Almost sounds like a baseball game!  

(And I didn't get to see the match either. )


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## Esquilinho (Jun 16, 2006)

I didn't see it either - the only games we get to see around here for free are the ones with the Portuguese team&#8230; 

Maybe they were just lucky!  And also one of the Serbians was thrown out (? my English soccer vocabular isn't the best  ) before the last 3 goals, so&#8230;

Still, I was already betting on Argentina and the Netherlands


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## bbloke (Jun 16, 2006)

As well as watching matches on TV, it's also possible to watch the matches and/or highlights using the BBC web site:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/world_cup_2006/default.stm 




Edit:  Ah, it says it is viewable to UK users only...   Sorry!


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## lilbandit (Jun 16, 2006)

bbloke, what do you make of Sven? He's getting a terrible time on Irish coverage of World Cup. I love football and would watch it all day if I had the chance (Thank God for World Cup!!) Summer is always hard, go into withdrawal every year! Have to say that Sven is imo an absolute joke. Remember the pictures of him meeting with Abramovich? I swear that he did it to score a pay rise for himself. Leaving Dafoe at home, playing an unfit Owen and Rooney and bringing a 17 year old who never played a first team game for his club to the greatest football stage in the world?? Won't play Carrick despite having a great season and being the only holding midfielder in the squad? Long balls to Crouch seem to be the only tactic and Beckham is looking more and more past it (dead balls aside). I'd play Lennon ahead of him. Beckham finished the last game playing right back!!


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## enathan1085 (Jun 16, 2006)

bbloke said:
			
		

> As well as watching matches on TV, it's also possible to watch the matches and/or highlights using the BBC web site:
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/world_cup_2006/default.stm
> 
> ...




Well I've had luck watching the games on my work computer using TVAnts.  About the only thing the craptacular computer here is good for.  Only downside is I have to keep distracting myself from the games to work on these models in front of me.  Sadly I've yet to find a streaming video equivalent (to TVAnts, PPLive, SOPCast, etc.) for Mac OS X.  All the games are during working hours anyway though, so for now TVAnts on the bloody horrific windows box at work is how I get my world cup fix during the weekdays.

Speaking of which, the Netherlands - Ivory Coast game was quite titillating.  I would've liked to see Ivory Coast advance but alas, 'tis not to be.  Now I'm stuck pulling for Czech, Brazil (I've been in love with Brazil football since grade school), and Spain (who looked in top form against the Ukraine, hopefully they can keep their game up to par).


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## Rhisiart (Jun 16, 2006)

bbloke said:
			
		

> Eeek, although England won 2-0, it was a close run thing with the match between England and Trinidad and Tobago!


England don't seem to have a game plan. Subsitute Lennon made all the difference against T&T. Rooney is a fabulous player, but is over-hyped as England's talisman. 



			
				lilbandit said:
			
		

> Have to say that Sven is imo an absolute joke.


Sven will be packing his bags soon. His post-World Cup replacement, Steve McClaren, will probably court less controversy, so perhaps the press will let him get on with the job.

For what it's worth, my money has always been on Argentina to win the cup (although I wouldn't put it past Germany to pull something off).


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## lilbandit (Jun 16, 2006)

Watching Argentina today it's hard not to be impressed. Messi came on and scored too, great to see him back in action! Anybody impressed with Italy?


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## Rhisiart (Jun 16, 2006)

Cautiously


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## bbloke (Jun 17, 2006)

lilbandit said:
			
		

> bbloke, what do you make of Sven? He's getting a terrible time on Irish coverage of World Cup. I love football and would watch it all day if I had the chance (Thank God for World Cup!!) Summer is always hard, go into withdrawal every year! Have to say that Sven is imo an absolute joke. Remember the pictures of him meeting with Abramovich? I swear that he did it to score a pay rise for himself. Leaving Dafoe at home, playing an unfit Owen and Rooney and bringing a 17 year old who never played a first team game for his club to the greatest football stage in the world?? Won't play Carrick despite having a great season and being the only holding midfielder in the squad? Long balls to Crouch seem to be the only tactic and Beckham is looking more and more past it (dead balls aside). I'd play Lennon ahead of him. Beckham finished the last game playing right back!!


Well, where to start?  I'm not really a massive football/soccer fan.  I know enough to know what people are talking about and I tend to watch international games, but I couldn't claim to be an expert.

My general feelings about Sven has been mixed.  At first, I thought he was a good manager and he might turn things round.  After some time, I began to think he was very conservative and was not playing to our strengths very well.  He seemed, to me, to play people out of position, be too defensive, make some odd substitutions, tinker with the squad a bit too much, and general not allow the games to flow as we would like (going by Premier League experiences).  It seemed like the team just didn't gel and didn't work together well.  Stupid mistakes were often made, and I wondered how much of this (such as diabolical passing or badly timed runs, from people who normally would know better!) was due to confusion when it came to specific roles and tactics.

People have recently pointed out that he actually has the best record, as far as England managers go.   I was surprised to learn this and started to wonder if we need to give him a little more credit.  Even so, I've not been happy with the performances at the World Cup so far.  To sum it up, it feels like England has some excellent talent, possibly some players who can hold their own against any other in the world, and yet, when put together as a team, it just doesn't work.  It's a frustrating lack of realization of potential.  

Not bringing Defoe was bad, in my view.  Our strike force consists of two people coming back from injury and who are not yet fit (Owen and Rooney), and one unusual character who, to his credit, has actually not done too badly (Crouch).  Joe Cole has also been very good, and I think he should keep playing.  With Lampard and Gerrard, they are both very talented and it is hard to know how to fit them both into the squad, if possible.  I think Terry has proven to be excellent and a good long term prospect. I'm not quite sure why Sven keeps using Hargreaves, although I know he is supposed to be better than the media give him credit for.  Lennon really seemed to bring a lot to the game against Trinidad and Tobago, and I'd like to see more of him in future.  To many people's surprise, Sven's subsitutions in that match actually proved effective!   

In summary, I just feel England are not performing as well as they are capable of, and I don't know if that comes down to the manager or not. On the other hand, although England have lacked flair and a command of their game, they have at least won both games and have not conceded a goal.  I think many fans would rather see England "play well" if you know what I mean, not just get points.  As Sven will be leaving after the World Cup, I'll give him of the benefit of the doubt for now and hope England "comes good" as time goes on.   *cringe*


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## fryke (Jun 19, 2006)

Okay. We're almost in the next round now. (We being Switzerland...)    I just _wish_ - although it's certainly not the most noble thought - that France will actually lose vs. Togo. There are three reasons for this thought:

1.) Switzerland could then even lose their final match against Korea.
2.) Togo was a good competitor in this group and needs more than 0 points.
3.) France definitely simply is _not_ the good team they once were. And I think they don't belong in the next round. Pity for Zidane? No.


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## Rhisiart (Jun 19, 2006)

fryke said:
			
		

> Switzerland could then even lose their final match against Korea.


Sorry Fryke old boy, but I fear Switzerland will lose their final match against South Korea. 



			
				bbloke said:
			
		

> I think many fans would rather see England "play well" if you know what I mean, not just get points.


Now that England are through to the next round, I am sure most of their fans will now just want them to win the cup, even if the games are scrappy. I would be delighted if they did. 

*Dal i fynd Lloegr* (Welsh for "C'mon Eng-er-land!").


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## fryke (Jun 19, 2006)

Hm. We'll see, m'dear.  ... But as I said. As long as France loses against Togo (and they've yet to show some decent football in this World Cup and now Zidane is missing...), it doesn't even matter that much. I certainly _hope_ Switzerland defies South Korea. They don't look unbeatable at all.


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## reed (Jun 19, 2006)

The French Team is "too old," badly managed, not unified at all and deserve to be eliminated. This isn't my point of view, this is what I hear (with few exceptions) in the cafés in Paris. Yikes! 
  They need two points over Togo, but "I wouldn't put my money on it." 
Henry can't do it alone is the feeling I get.
 And even if they pass...they're going to confront Spain. Double yikes!
 Dommage.


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## Ferdinand (Jun 20, 2006)

SPAIN ROX!!!!

They'll win hopefully...


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## bbloke (Jun 20, 2006)

Ooooh, I saw the highlights of the game between Togo and Switzerland.  It was a much closer run thing than I expected!   Togo also weren't given a penalty for a clear foul.   A few heart-stopping moments, fryke?   

Glad to hear you're supporting England, rhisiart.     Some people from Scotland and Wales that I know would never support England.  That sometimes irked me, as it seemed unnecessarily hostile; for instance, I'd support other British teams in a competition, not just England, although I'd focus on England most of all.

Spain certainly seem to be doing very well.  I've always had this perception that Spain were like England: they seemed to have the ability on paper, but don't manage to do as well as they could when it comes to the tournaments.  I never knew why.

Ecuador and Argentina are supposed to look quite formidable too, although I haven't watched them play yet.

So, today we have:

Ecuador vs. Germany

Costa Rica vs. Poland

Paraguay vs. Trinidad and Tobago

Sweden vs. England


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## fryke (Jun 20, 2006)

Hm. Yeah, a few heart-stopping moments, but Switzerland was definitely the better team, and being one goal ahead, it was easier to live through the match.  ... I'm not exactly sure I'm going to watch today's Germany game. That group's too clear already. England is interesting, though. They didn't exactly "wow" me so far. Spain, btw., had a *very* hard time yesterday. Until minute 71, that is.


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## Rhisiart (Jun 20, 2006)

bbloke said:
			
		

> Glad to hear you're supporting England, rhisiart.     Some people from Scotland and Wales that I know would never support England.  That sometimes irked me, as it seemed unnecessarily hostile; for instance, I'd support other British teams in a competition, not just England, although I'd focus on England most of all.


The only thing about England I dislike is the press.


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## lilbandit (Jun 20, 2006)

The English media have a terrible habit of destroying managers, players and hyping a group of players to unreal expectations. I would take Spain ahead of England on a given day. They can hold onto and pass the ball far better than the current English team. Watching a Premiership game and a La Liga game is a real eye opener. Sky Sports and the English media would have you believe that the Premiership is a standard bearer for football and therefore the best players in the Premiership must be capable of winning the world cup, at the moment this is simply not true. There are some quality players in the English squad but they currently lack a real playmaker in and around midfield. I suppose I just get tired of hearing about '66 and the same media merry-go-round every four years! Their most successful run since '66 was in 1990 (semi-finals)


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## bbloke (Jun 20, 2006)

lilbandit said:
			
		

> The English media have a terrible habit of destroying managers, players


Yup, alas... 





> and hyping a group of players to unreal expectations.


Possibly. 





> I would take Spain ahead of England on a given day. They can hold onto and pass the ball far better than the current English team. Watching a Premiership game and a La Liga game is a real eye opener. Sky Sports and the English media would have you believe that the Premiership is a standard bearer for football and therefore the best players in the Premiership must be capable of winning the world cup, at the moment this is simply not true. There are some quality players in the English squad but they currently lack a real playmaker in and around midfield. I suppose I just get tired of hearing about '66 and the same media merry-go-round every four years! Their most successful run since '66 was in 1990 (semi-finals)


Awww, this is a little harsh.  I take your point to some degree.  I think there is too much hype right now and I don't see England winning the World Cup, much as I'd like them to.  

I do think there are some really good players in the squad, there's a lot of young talent which will put us in good stead for the future.  I genuinely think there are issues about getting the England team to gel and work together.  I've felt for years that the players often don't perform as well as they do for their clubs.  This isn't about not being able to when up against better opposition; they just seem to start making silly, uncharacteristic mistakes.  I don't know if it is the pressure, confusion about roles, lack of understanding between players, or what it is.

I also think there is a great difference in styles between Continental and English and Scottish leagues.  The UK leagues tend to be faster and more physical.  This can, in my view, mean UK players keep getting penalized for things we'd not normally consider a foul.  Although UK players do it too, I also feel there is more "diving" and "acting" with Continental teams (I'm not saying English teams don't do it at all!).  English teams probably prefer speed and a physical game, and Continental teams seem more likely to take the passing route.  I'm not saying one method is miles better than another, just the goal posts are shifted when it comes to the nature of the game and what players are used to.  Perhaps I'm simplifying too much.

I'm no expert, I'll admit.  However, when I've watched Italian and Spanish league games, I've not been that impressed, though.  Spain and Italy do possess some excellent players and some big, big clubs with huge reputations, I'm not denying that.  It's just the style of play is not for me.

I had a look for a bit of history:

UEFA Cup stats:
Nation ... Winners ... Runners-up
England ... 10 ... 8
Italy ... 10 ... 8
Spain ... 10 ... 6
Germany ... 6 ... 7
Netherlands ... 4 ... 2


UEFA Cup Winner's Cup stats:
Nation ... Winners ... Runners-up
England ... 8 ... 5
Spain ... 7 ... 7
Italy ... 7 ... 4
Germany ... 5 ... 4
Belgium ... 3 ... 4


European Cup and Champions League stats:
Nation ... Winners ... Runners-up
Spain ... 11 ... 9
Italy ... 10 ... 14
England ... 10 ... 3
Germany ... 6 ... 7
Netherlands ... 6 ... 2

So I wouldn't say England and English clubs are massively over-hyped and that we take a backseat to other European nations.  I don't think England are Brazil right now, but I think they have a chance if they play to their potential... which they are not doing.  A few foreign observers (coaches, ex-players, etc.) too have actually tipped England to be one of the potential winners, it's not just propaganda in the English press.


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## fryke (Jun 20, 2006)

I'd say _any_ team reaching the next round has their chance. I don't really see any _bad_ teams, and even Brazil, England, Argentina and Germany have their bad days. What good are all those tables if a team wins which wasn't expected to win. The tables change. 

I just want to add that watching Sweden vs. England, I _am_ now "wowed". That goal was very nice indeed. And certainly a little hard to swallow for Sweden's goalie.


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## lilbandit (Jun 20, 2006)

All kinds of fun and games in tomorrows media, Rooney didn't look happy coming off! Wonder if Sven told him that he'd play for 85-90 mins? Owen stretchered off too. Sweden are a team that have always been well managed and organised, but many of the players play/played for very average Premiership clubs eg. Villa and Everton. The rest are scattered among the Swedish domestic league and around Europe (Larrson plays for Barca but he's 35!!) I suppose my point is that I can't understand how the cream of the Premiership is struggling against very average teams (Trinidad/Paraguay) and a Swedish team that does not have (on paper at least) anything like the pedigree England have available. England also lost 1-0 to Northern Ireland during their qualification yet many English fans (not all!) automatically consider themselves among the favourites every four years. bbloke, I realise that English clubs have had success in Europe but watching England so far it just looks like they are waiting for a set piece to score. Cole's goal was spectacular but they didn't look like scoring from general play. Sweden were the same, most of their real chances came from corners and free kicks. I just feel that a side that can pass a ball and be clever in midfield will always beat a team that relies on set pieces. Imagine Argentina running at England instead of Sweden!


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## bbloke (Jun 20, 2006)

I like the new avatar, fryke.



			
				fryke said:
			
		

> I'd say _any_ team reaching the next round has their chance. I don't really see any _bad_ teams, and even Brazil, England, Argentina and Germany have their bad days. What good are all those tables if a team wins which wasn't expected to win. The tables change.


Yup, I'd agree with all that.   

England are not playing their best by any stretch of the imagination.  It doesn't help that England are also looking rather under strength, with the number of their players who are currently injured or are coming back from injury.



> I just want to add that watching Sweden vs. England, I _am_ now "wowed". That goal was very nice indeed. And certainly a little hard to swallow for Sweden's goalie.


  Hehehehe

Also, Gerrard's goal against Trinidad and Tobago was very good too.  You might want to see that if you can somehow; another long range strike, and with the "wrong" foot.

As for the match........... arrrrrrrrrgggggghhhh, so close!  It was good England didn't lose, but it was annoying to go ahead twice, only for Sweden to come back... and the final goal was on the 90th minute!  So, what is it?   38 years that England haven't beaten Sweden or something?   

The first half was beginning to look more like England playing more to their potential.  I was very pleased with it, and it look like England were playing like they should.  A disaster with Michael Owen being injured, possibly seriously, within the first minute.     Joe Cole's goal was very impressive, though!

In the second half, England looked pretty shambolic.  The defence was just nowhere near their usual standard, and then Ferdinand looked potentially injured.  Sweden then came back when they got a goal, when there was a bit of a scramble in the penalty area.   *sigh*   Gerrard scored from a header in the 85th minute and it looked at last like the jinx might have been broken.  Then Sweden scored a rather bizarre, scrambled goal in the penalty area in the 90th minute.   Argh, not again!


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## bbloke (Jun 20, 2006)

lilbandit said:
			
		

> I suppose my point is that I can't understand how the cream of the Premiership is struggling against very average teams (Trinidad/Paraguay) and a Swedish team that does not have (on paper at least) anything like the pedigree England have available. England also lost 1-0 to Northern Ireland during their qualification yet many English fans (not all!) automatically consider themselves among the favourites every four years.


Yup, I know what you mean.  Essentially, I feel like we have a good team on paper, but the team is just not "working" yet!  Why, I don't know.  It's very frustrating to watch... 



> bbloke, I realise that English clubs have had success in Europe but watching England so far it just looks like they are waiting for a set piece to score. Cole's goal was spectacular but they didn't look like scoring from general play.


Mmmm, I'm not sure if I'd go as far as that, although I kind of know what you mean.  True, England do like Beckham's free kicks and so on, but they did have a number of shots when they were applying pressure in open play, and neither of England's goals came from set pieces this time.  I'd say England played well in the first half, but really did not play well in the second half.



> Sweden were the same, most of their real chances came from corners and free kicks.


Yes.  Both their goals came from set pieces if my memory is correct and, erm, were not the best goals in the world in my view.  Both times the England defence slipped up during a scramble in the penalty area.  But, hey, at this level, the defence can't go making mistakes like that...



> I just feel that a side that can pass a ball and be clever in midfield will always beat a team that relies on set pieces. Imagine Argentina running at England instead of Sweden!


I don't disagree about how England should not rely on set pieces.  England should be doing better than they are.  They have won the group, but they are not playing like many feel they should.  It's not really come together yet.  Hopefully it is a matter of time, but it is also rather worrying that England's forwards are not the strongest asset at the moment: Rooney is coming back from serious injury, Owen has been out for most of the season with a serious injury and has now possibly picked up another one, and Crouch is OK, but he's not the best player in the world.  Especially when playing like this, England needs all the "bite" it can get!


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## lilbandit (Jun 20, 2006)

Germany looked better today, getting a little momentum going, they'll be hard to beat too.


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## enathan1085 (Jun 21, 2006)

The problem with Germany's showing today was that 5 starting Ecuador players were benched to save them for the next round (they were all carrying yellow cards).  In my mind that makes their 3-0 win much less impressive.


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## enathan1085 (Jun 21, 2006)

bbloke said:
			
		

> So, what is it?   38 years that England haven't beaten Sweden or something?



Yup, last time was 1968...  My how time flies....


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## lilbandit (Jun 21, 2006)

Bad news about Michael Owen, out for 6 months. He has to be the most injury prone player I have ever seen. He's only 25 but spends most of every season on the bench.


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## bbloke (Jun 21, 2006)

lilbandit said:
			
		

> Bad news about Michael Owen, out for 6 months. He has to be the most injury prone player I have ever seen. He's only 25 but spends most of every season on the bench.


I know, it's not good news.   

This coupled with Owen already having just come back from injury anyway, Rooney rapidly coming back aftr a broken foot, Ferdinand going off with groin problems yesterday, Neville still having an injured calf, Campbell having not played much of the season, Walcott picking something up in training not long ago, Gerrard possibly having some niggly back problems (?), Ashley Cole coming back from injury not so long ago, and so on.  It seems the team has quite a few injury issues.  I know teams always have these, but there seem to be a few major players who are having problems at the same time.   *sigh*


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## reed (Jun 21, 2006)

Too bad about Owen. Hang in there. Still looking good Angleterre despite all. Cheers.


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## fryke (Jun 21, 2006)

Aw... :/ ... That doesn't sound too good.


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## Esquilinho (Jun 21, 2006)

Cool! Portugal will play against the Netherlands and not against Argentina!


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## fryke (Jun 21, 2006)

Hm.  ... Portugal's the third team I'm cheering for, actually. (Switzerland, Brazil, Portugal.) I am thinking about getting a Portugal shirt tomorrow. Love the colour, haven't had a football shirt for more than 20 years, I guess... And the last one had the same colour (SFC, Servette FC, Genève, Swiss club.)


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## bbloke (Jun 22, 2006)

I was glad to see Ghana get through.  They seem to play with lots of spirit.  I was also quite pleased that The Netherlands went through; they've often seemed to me to be traditionally a strong side who don't win as much as they maybe should.

Interesting... Brazil against Ghana in the next round... oh, errrrr, and Italy versus Australia.  I'm guessing so far it will end up being Germany against Argentina in the Quarter Finals, and quite possibly Ecuador (alas) against Portugal.


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## mw84 (Jun 23, 2006)

I'm interested to see our line up on Sunday with Owen out. Personally I'd like to see Gerrard playing up front with Rooney.


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## bbloke (Jun 24, 2006)

mw84 said:
			
		

> I'm interested to see our line up on Sunday with Owen out. Personally I'd like to see Gerrard playing up front with Rooney.


I'd like to see Gerrard and Lampard havign free roles, with a holding midfielder behind them.  This would mean Rooney plays on his own up front, but he would have support from two attacking midfielders.   Hmmm, I'd also like to see Lennon again... and I'm curious about Walcott.  Errr, how many players are we allowed on the pitch again?   

Congratulations, fryke, Switzerland are safely through.  Portugal are through as well, so I'm sure Esquilinho will be pleased.


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## lilbandit (Jun 24, 2006)

Lots of talk on the beeb about playing Rooney alone up front in a 4-5-1 formation. Crazy stuff, Rooney isn't fit enough to play 50 full blooded minutes as a lone striker. Like bbloke I'd like to see Lennon again, I'd drop Beckham in a heartbeat! Give Terry the captain's armband and let him scream at the others to get them going. He's a natural leader. I'm curious about Walcott too but he can't be impressing in training if he hasn't been used by now. The match against Sweden was an ideal chance to blood him in a relatively unimportant match. I think Sven wants to play with one striker. He got Benfica to European cup final and Lazio won the double in 2000 under him but both teams played one striker and counter attacking football. This might go some way towards explaining the bizarre decision to take the squad that he did. My 2 cents, I have no idea really!


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## bbloke (Jun 25, 2006)

*Phew!*   I can breathe again!  England are through to the Quarter Finals.   

Watching England play usually makes me feel like I've aged ten years.  I'm glad they played a bit better and that they didn't sag in the second half like they have done so far in each match in this tournament.  They kept possesion much better, and generally built things up nicely, although they tended not to finish things off.  

I think Carrick played very well indeed, and Lennon was looking quite good at the end of the game too.  Rooney did really well and showed his passion for playing.  He lasted the full match (for the first time since breaking his foot) in an isolated role (i.e. where he had to do a lot of running), and this was on a hot day as well!

Lampard seems to be off form this tournament, as he keeps missing shots he'd normally put away, and Robinson sometimes gives us heart attacks in his role as the hesitant goalkeeper!  I was not too happy with the refereeing at some points (eg. three hand balls by Ecuador that were ignored [once in the penalty area and once just outside], ignoring a foul on Gerrard on the edge of the penalty area, and some occasional rough stuff from Ecuador, and yet two yellow cards for English players for "time wasting"... !), although it was not toooo bad overall.  We also got to see some delightful footage of Beckham spitting a lot... he apparently vomited on the pitch, and had not been feeling well all day!  A lot of people have been criticizing his form; he might get let off for now after his rather nice free kick...

Edit: Oh yes, and I was happy to be proven wrong: I had feared Ecuador might produce a "shock" and beat England, given the way England has been playing recently!


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## Esquilinho (Jun 25, 2006)

Oléééééé!!! :d


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## bbloke (Jun 25, 2006)

WOW.  I was watching the Portugal - Netherlands game, and what can I say...  That game was a farce!

I was not sure who to support during the match at first, for various reasons, but I started to really turn against the Dutch because of what I saw as very dirty/dishonest behavior (eg. diving all the time etc.).  By the end, I wanted to see Portugal convincingly beat the Dutch, I'm afraid.  But, still... 16 yellow cards and 4 red cards?!


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## fryke (Jun 26, 2006)

Let's just say: That was _not_ a real football game. The man in black (although they mostly aren't nowadays...) was kind of a showstar, trying to pull off a few record-breaking card-tricks. Of course it didn't help that both teams went into the game very nervously and aggressively. Still glad Portugal made it. Holland's not giving back the ball after the "fairness-outing of the ball" _two_ times was too much.


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## Esquilinho (Jun 26, 2006)

I think it was Holland's fault&#8230; OK, I may sound biased,  but still&#8230; 
It was like they were doing it on purpose, maybe trying to provoke the Portuguese team so they would lose their head and be all thrown out&#8230;

Anyway, the referee was really the star of the game.


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## ora (Jun 26, 2006)

I'm very happy portugal one as I have many Portugeuse friends at work, one of whom has tickets for the quarter final they are now in.

That said, in geneva there are a lot of Portugeuse people and they do love shouting and honking car horns when they win. As i live above a Portugeuse bar this meant i was awake till past 2am as cars cruised round the middle of town and sang .

PS- kinda supporting Switzerland as I live there, and never was a very patriotic Brit (sorry bbloke!)


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## Esquilinho (Jun 26, 2006)

ora said:
			
		

> That said, in geneva there are a lot of Portugeuse people and they do love shouting and honking car horns when they win. As i live above a Portugeuse bar this meant i was awake till past 2am as cars cruised round the middle of town and sang .



Do I know what you mean!!! Imagine it here!!

And as if that wasn't enough, some guy decided to climb up a statue in one of the most important squares in Lisbon anf fell down! On a 16 year old girl!


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## ora (Jun 26, 2006)

Esquilinho said:
			
		

> Do I know what you mean!!! Imagine it here!!



I can imagine!! must be fun though if everyone is that enthusiastic, better than the happily much improved image of 'celebrating'  England fans. I missed the game (not the world's biggest football fan) but my mates in the UK seem happy as they reckon it improved their chance against Portugal.

Sad about the girl getting hurt, but alcohol and tall monuments are a dangerous combinations!


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## Esquilinho (Jun 26, 2006)

OMG! Don't these guys practice the penalties???


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## fryke (Jun 26, 2006)

Seems like (although I heard before the game that they _actually_ did train penalties that afternoon...). My tears are low in number, though, since they _should_ and could have made it clear in the 30 minutes _before_ the penalty shoot-off. The shoot-off's always a luck-thing, and no-one should speculate on that. If you can't win the _game_ before it, you're not in the right place at the World Cup.

Now my hopes are with Brazil and Portugal, of course.


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## Veljo (Jun 26, 2006)

It was very disappointing to see Australia lose to Italy, when Australia clearly played the better overall game. 92 minutes in it was still 0-0 and the game was looking to be heading into a fantastic nail-biting penalty shoot-out, until a terrible call from the referee gave Italy a penalty shot  which they got. Losing 1-0 for this reason is terrible, but I'm very proud of Australia for getting this far, considering they'd never before even scored a goal in the World Cup.

My hopes now lie with Germany.


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## bbloke (Jun 27, 2006)

Esquilinho said:
			
		

> I think it was Holland's fault&#8230; OK, I may sound biased,  but still&#8230;
> It was like they were doing it on purpose, maybe trying to provoke the Portuguese team so they would lose their head and be all thrown out&#8230;


I mainly agree with you.  I think the Dutch behaved disgracefully, and I only wish they could be further penalized!  They were completely unsportsmanlike, they were faking fouls/injuries all over the place, and I was very disappointed by them.  Robben, in particular, will always be a cheat in my eyes.  I was glad they were knocked out.  This after I had previously wanted to see them do well!  

I don't think it was 100% Holland's fault, though.  Deco's challenge was incredibly rash and, no matter how angry you get, you should never lash out like that.  Costinha was rash too and was careless more than once, so he did deserve to be sent off.  Also, Figo was not that well behaved...  He headbutted someone (although not with lots of force) and he did rather exaggerate to get Boulahrouz deliberately sent off.  Despite this, I do think the majority of the blame lies with the Dutch and with the referee.  There are just far too many cards in this tournament, FIFA are really spoiling things.

Gosh, feels like I'm one of very few here supporting England!


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## fryke (Jun 27, 2006)

On the other hand, the game Switzerland vs. Ukraine was almost without cards. I felt that this was rather good for the game, although there were some instances, where the blow of a whistle was clearly missing.  ... I guess the trick would be to adapt to the referee - but it doesn't seem like teams can actually do that.


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## bbloke (Jun 28, 2006)

A shame to see Ghana go out, but I didn't really expect a different result against Brazil.  As for the match between Spain and France, I was surprised that France won, as Spain seemed to be doing very well.  Spain is another national side that seems to not do as well as one might expect.  

Once more, I was very disappointed by the acting during that match.  I'm not sure if the players in the tournament are interested in the World Cup or the Oscars.  I think it was Torres (?) who went over the top when Viera slightly caught him in the face.  Also, _what on earth_ was Henry doing, blatantly diving *and* clutching his face when no contact was made?!   I was very disappointed in him.

Personally, I think diving and acting should warrant a yellow card or even a red card sometimes, particularly when the player doesn't just go down but actually tries to convince the referee to send someone off. For instance, people who go down grabbing their face when there was little or no contact should, in my view, be sent off.  I know there is always some acting.  I know people sometimes hit the ground when they could have stayed up.  Is it just me, however, or are players getting worse for this sort of thing?


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## reed (Jun 28, 2006)

France vs Germany for the final anyone? No way?
Yellow/red cards "a gogo" Portugal vs England?
Argentina vs Germany, dido?
Italy....good actors. As usual. Cheap win. I was hoping for overtime.

And the referees?

Your objective opinions. Please.

PS There were so many Frenchmen saying France would not beat Spain. Goes to show you. A question of confidence perhaps.

May the best team win.


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## Rhisiart (Jun 28, 2006)

Sorry Fryke, but one British commentator described watching Switzerland the other night as being akin to watching creosote dry. It was a negative performance and I don't think Switzerland deserved to go further in the competition.

However, I know Switzerland can play very well and I hope they bounce back and show us their strengths in the next Euro competition.

Germany vs. Argentina? Germany is playing well as a team and the Argies have some weaknesses in their defence. However, my head says Argentina to win.

I think England can beat Portugal (sorry Esquilinho), but then they will face either Brazil or France.

Final? Argentina vs. Brazil (with the latter winning).


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## Esquilinho (Jun 28, 2006)

I didn't see the game, but I heard CH vs. UKR was the most boring game of the competition&#8230; 

rhisiart: Blasphemy!!! Well, they CAN but they WON'T! 
We've beat them before. And I just remember that in Euro 2000 England was winning by 2-0 and we ended up winning by 3-2 

The problem is that everyone wants to get even (Holland and England) because we beat them in Euro 2004! Anyway, even if we win, I thing we'll never beat Brazil or France&#8230;


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## fryke (Jun 28, 2006)

France? Those old fa....ntastic players?  ... Seriously: Any team still in the game can be beaten. Saw Argentina play Mexico? Surely, Portugal can play them as well. Saw Brazil at all? They're not on top of their game. Italy? Pu-leeze! England's not the best they ever were, either and I hear France was almost beaten by a team from a small country in the heart of Europe with a red flag with a white cross in the middle. I certainly view Portugal as one of the better remaining teams. The one team which I seriously doubt can be beaten right now: Germany. Hopefully, I'm wrong.


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## bbloke (Jun 29, 2006)

rhisiart said:
			
		

> I think England can beat Portugal (sorry Esquilinho), but then they will face either Brazil or France.


On paper, I certainly think the England team can beat Portugal.  The current England team certainly should be, in theory, one of the best squads this country's had in many years.  Now, the only issue is whether or not the stuttering team can actually perform properly on the night!  



			
				rhisiart said:
			
		

> Final? Argentina vs. Brazil (with the latter winning).


Yup, this is what I've been expecting too, although Argentina vs Germany will be a tough one to call.  I'm a bit torn between thinking Argentina or Germany will win, especially as Germany has the home crowd behind them.   Hmmmm...



			
				Esquilinho said:
			
		

> The problem is that everyone wants to get even (Holland and England) because we beat them in Euro 2004! Anyway, even if we win, I thing we'll never beat Brazil or France


Ah yes, I remember that...
















			
				fryke said:
			
		

> Seriously: Any team still in the game can be beaten. Saw Argentina play Mexico?


Indeed.  I remember thinking Mexico made Argentina look very beatable!  This was when I started to wonder if Germany would beat Argentina, actually.



			
				fryke said:
			
		

> Surely, Portugal can play them as well. Saw Brazil at all? They're not on top of their game.


True, but Brazil can beat teams 3-0 when not playing their best.   



			
				fryke said:
			
		

> Italy? Pu-leeze! England's not the best they ever were, either


I agree that they are not playing their best, although the squad seems excellent in theory.  I remember one person joking Sven's been impressive: he's been able to put together a side that is equal to less than the sum of the parts!   



			
				fryke said:
			
		

> and I hear France was almost beaten by a team from a small country in the heart of Europe with a red flag with a white cross in the middle. I certainly view Portugal as one of the better remaining teams. The one team which I seriously doubt can be beaten right now: Germany. Hopefully, I'm wrong.


I hope you're wrong too...


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## bbloke (Jun 29, 2006)

reed said:
			
		

> And the referees?
> 
> Your objective opinions. Please.


OK, I think some referees have been good, and some have been bad.  Graham Poll was certainly dreadful when he gave the Croatian player three yellow cards before he was sent off... and Poll paid for it by being sent home now.

The Russian referee, Ivanov, was diabolical.  The game between Portugal and The Netherlands became very bad tempered and was just awful, with those 16 yellow cards and 4 four cards.  The players were badly behaved, but I think Ivanov made things difficult for himself when he started giving out too many cards and therefore, in the interests of consistency, could not stop.  I was not impressed by the referee ("Sanchez?") who was present in England's game against Paraguay; even the commentators were beginning to make comments about him.  

There is also some inconsistency: I think it was the referee between Mexico and Argentina (?) who didn't send someone off for being the last defender who took out a forward going for goal, and yet a different ref in different game did send someone off for something similar (sorry, I can't remember the details).  This sort of thing is to be expected, but doesn't give an impression of "justice" in the tournament, though.

In general, though, I think the referees are simply in a very difficult position.  For the most part, I think FIFA's stricter legislation has made life tougher for the referees, as it has added confusion and it has also made players more likely to take up acting in order to try to get opponents sent off, reasonably safe in the knowledge they are unlikely to get a card for their deceit.  This makes it worth the risk for many...  Throughout the competition, there have been some good decisions and there have been some bad decisions.  Most refs have probably been reasonably OK under the circumstances, although there are some howlers from time to time...


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## Rhisiart (Jun 29, 2006)

bbloke said:
			
		

> The Russian referee, Ivanov, was diabolical. The game between Portugal and The Netherlands became very bad tempered and was just awful, with those 16 yellow cards and 4 four cards.  The players were badly behaved, but I think Ivanov made things difficult for himself when he started giving out too many cards and therefore, in the interests of consistency, could not stop.


If I had been in Ivanov's shoes, I would have sent all 22 players off.

P.S. Apparently (so it said on the news yesterday), two England fans parked their Car in Köln and then forgot where they had left it. After a fustrating search they approached a German policeman and asked for his help. Thankfully the two lads had written down the name of the street ... Einbahn Strasse!


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## fryke (Jun 29, 2006)

bbloke: I hope the English have by now seen all the footage about that game in 2004 and seen that the Swiss ref was perfectly right...? That was a shame, how the British reacted and how the press called to _weapons_ against a ref who was _right_.


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## lilbandit (Jun 29, 2006)

Sepp Blatter is a disgrace and a running joke at this stage, the guy who is ultimately responsible for the World Cup comes out criticising his own refs. It's not fair to them or the players. I'm not 100% sure (please correct me!) but due to the international nature of the world cup, there is a broad spectrum of nationalities represented in the ref lineup. With all due respect, some domestic leagues are not up to providing refs equipped with the expertise at this level. I also think that the players need to take a long look at themselves. Diving, feigning injury, headbutts and timewasting don't help the situation. Video evidence is needed and an open system similar to American football or rugby would allow for transparency and the players would know that they couldn't get away with misconduct. It's got to the stage that players are so good at cheating that the ref can't tell exactly what happened in a split second incident.


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## bbloke (Jun 29, 2006)

fryke said:
			
		

> bbloke: I hope the English have by now seen all the footage about that game in 2004 and seen that the Swiss ref was perfectly right...?


Perfectly right in which respect?  I do remember there was a disallowed goal which caused a lot of irritation in particular (it's hard to say whether that was due to only bias by the English fans or whether it is because the English game tends to be a bit more physical by nature, or perhaps maybe a bit of both), but there was quite a number of decisions, not just one, that annoyed people.



			
				fryke said:
			
		

> That was a shame, how the British reacted and how the press called to _weapons_ against a ref who was _right_.


Did they actually call for weapons to be used against Urs Meier?  I'm genuinely asking the question, as I don't remember that and would be surprised if they did.  I agree that The Sun went too far by planting an English flag outside his home, though........


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## bbloke (Jun 29, 2006)

lilbandit said:
			
		

> I also think that the players need to take a long look at themselves. Diving, feigning injury, headbutts and timewasting don't help the situation. Video evidence is needed and an open system similar to American football or rugby would allow for transparency and the players would know that they couldn't get away with misconduct. It's got to the stage that players are so good at cheating that the ref can't tell exactly what happened in a split second incident.


I absolutely agree, well said.  

I think video evidence should be used to judge whether or not people are acting.  I also think players should be ashamed of themselves for trying to fool referees.  While I know I can be harsh on referees at times, I do have some sympathy as a lot of players do try to mislead them.

I remember an Argentinian journalist talking about how this sort of "gamesmanship" is something the Argentinians take pride in, a sort of cheekiness, of trying to fool the referee, and how it is all good fun and part of the game.  To me: no, it's not, it's called cheating.


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## lilbandit (Jun 29, 2006)

best of luck on Saturday bbloke, every chance of beating Portugal.


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## fryke (Jun 29, 2006)

bbloke: Well, that weapons thing wasn't meant literally by me.  ... I just know that The Sun did not only plant the flag, they also called him names etc. and I think they _did_ go far too far back then. And IIRC, it really was perfectly reasonable to decide how he did. But that's all in the past, I guess. We have four nice games (I hope) coming up. And my _personal_ guess is that we'll have Germany winning vs. Argentina, Portugal winning vs. England (that's coloured by me being a Portugal fan, though), Italy winning vs. Ukraine and Brazil beating France.


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## reed (Jun 29, 2006)

bbloke.
  What a riot the "blind" ref. and the dog. Portugal has a lot yellow cards. Good for England. However, they have some good reserve players, but they have to watch their Ps & Qs. Unless things get really "delicate." 
 I see England in spades.
  Good luck.

For you Football experts: The fans "without illusions" here think they can toss Brazil Saturday. Any bets?


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## bbloke (Jun 30, 2006)

Thanks, lilbandit and reed.  

As for the ole Urs Meier story, I know The Sun ran some sort of hate campaign against Urs Meier, which I certainly would not condone.  The funny thing is I remember less about that disallowed English goal than some.  I actually just remember being stunned watching decision after decision go against England, and so the disallowed goal, erm, didn't surprise me in the end, as it just felt part of the whole episode.  I was watching the game with people of various nationalities (including Dutch, Italian, and Russian, of those that I remember), and I remember them commenting during and after the game on how atrocious they thought the refereeing was. Knowing them, they wouldn't have said that if they didn't mean it.  As it happens, the Italian guy recently recalled the match and was saying again how awful he thought Urs Meier was, and he even thought the English goal should have stood!

But, anyway...

It is indeed in the past...  I don't look back on that match as being OK or think Urs Meier did a good job, but I guess one moves on and just accepts that these things sometimes happen in the game, as annoying as they can be at the time.   

In the UK, Budweiser have mini ads during commercial breaks, which I find quite amusing.  They always have two (phoney) American sports commentators trying to be enthusiastic but not understanding the game at all.  In one of these ads, they had one commentator say _something_ like: It's incredible, the crowd have really got behind this man.  He's been a rock.  The crowd have even been chanting... "The referee's an anchor."   

I think all of the Quarter Finals will be tough.  Any team has a chance, actually.  Brazil could be assumed to stroll through, but, on the other hand, France did surprisingly well against Spain.  Germany vs. Argentina will be interesting...  Everyone is also rather expecting Italy to beat Ukraine, but it might not be so straight forwards.


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## fryke (Jun 30, 2006)

Watching GER vs. ARG, I have to say that Germany just shouldn't win this... And Maxi Rodr. _should_ have gotten that penalty... Ah. The refs again, eh?  ... I think it _always_ depends on how you're viewing a game. Even if you don't root for one team, it can simply _look_ like the ref whistles against one team, but that could be because that team actually _plays_ in unfair ways. Of _course_ they would make signs that they're handled inadequately by the ref, but that wouldn't change the facts... This World Cup, 2006 I mean, shows us a lot of stuff where you first think it's clear, but after the replays, it looks entirely different. And I have to admit, I think most refs are doing good jobs here... Seeing things correctly. That on TV look off (before replays).

... Hmm... Just finished watching GER vs. ARG. Don't want to spoil this for late-viewers (so look away now), but they shouldn't have won that game. I don't think this was earned. Then again: You simply should have made that other goal, Argentina.


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## Rhisiart (Jun 30, 2006)

Home teams do have a very real advantage.


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## mw84 (Jun 30, 2006)

I think the match was pretty even. Argentina might of had more possession, well pretty much all of the possession  but they failed to do anything with it. I for one am glad Germany won it, mainly because it's one less 'favorite' for us English to compete with, let's just hope Brazil get slaughtered tomorrow aswell.


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## reed (Jun 30, 2006)

bbloke,rhisiart, fryke & gang....

 Screw the Bud ads. And the brew too. Sorry you have to see them during the commercial breaks. Have Tartan Special for me.

  Germany HAD to win. Home "is an advantage." Indeed. To much money involved? Just a conspiracy thought.

Italy in a minute.


  In anycase, these are more or less good matches now. You guys are experts...the best is always the quarter, etc. finals. No? Saturday should be a riot both in the UK and here in Paris. 
  Best of luck.


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## Rhisiart (Jun 30, 2006)

reed said:
			
		

> bbloke,rhisiart, fryke & gang....you guys are experts...


Experts? bbloke, fryke and lilbandit yes. Me, definitely no. I predicted Argentina to win, so that shows how much I know.

I think it has been a good competition, but the cheating by players has left a sour edge to it all (e.g. Thierry Henry of all people, complaining about bad refereeing in the European Champions Cup final, yet clutches his face when elbowed by Puyol in the chest during their crucial win over Spain). Robben of the Netherlands has been the biggest cheat of all.

And whilst I am in critical mode, what is it with TV soccer directors who have a fetish for close-up shots of footballers gobbing (aka. spitting)? Given the timing of these matches, I am usually eating my wife's famed Irish cabbage and bacon during these games and the sight of spittle is really off-putting.


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## bbloke (Jul 1, 2006)

*Not* impressed.  I'll keep my mouth shut unless anyone else raises the England match.

Going out for a walk now.


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## lilbandit (Jul 1, 2006)

Bad luck bbloke, always tough to go out on penalties. Ireland lost out to Spain in last World Cup, I remember the hurt like it was yesterday!


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## fryke (Jul 1, 2006)

So I won't mention the England game. And I have to admit that although I was for Brazil and I actually thought France should've been out before this round (definitely), they simply played better than Brazil. Not understandable that Ronaldo played 90 minutes. Parreira's fault. Definitely. Most definitely. Why hang on to this old man. He had his best game against Japan, when Brazil played _all_ its game towards him against a weaker team, but against a stronger enemy, he just has to leave early or not play at all.


----------



## Rhisiart (Jul 1, 2006)

bbloke said:
			
		

> *Not* impressed.  I'll keep my mouth shut unless anyone else raises the England match. Going out for a walk now.


I am going to respond. 

I still rate England's defence as equal to any team in the world. However, serious mistakes were made:

1. A manager who doesnt understand that Rooney is there to support the striker up front, not _be_ the man up front himself (leading to Rooney becoming unnecessarily frustrated and prone to foolishness).

2. The typical bottling out of otherwise excellent players in international tournaments, e.g. Frank Lampard.

3. An over long English premiership season, with not enough opportunity for the England squad to play 'friendlies' and bond.

4. A post-1966 arrogance that England deserves to win the World cup. 

Dont miss understand me. I may be Welsh, but I wanted England to triumph. I feel very sorry for England fans. They have been badly let down.


----------



## bbloke (Jul 1, 2006)

lilbandit said:
			
		

> Bad luck bbloke, always tough to go out on penalties. Ireland lost out to Spain in last World Cup, I remember the hurt like it was yesterday!


Thanks.  It's getting to be a _very annoying_ habit for the England team, though!




			
				rhisiart said:
			
		

> I am going to respond.


OK, that's fine.  Nothing you've said has rattled me, either, just so you know where I'm coming from.  

I felt very disappointed by the outcome, obviously, and I felt there were also a number of contentious issues, in addition to one of the biggest talking points of the game...  It will probably take a little while for me to calm down a bit!



			
				rhisiart said:
			
		

> I still rate England's defence as equal to any team in the world.


 I'd agree.



			
				rhisiart said:
			
		

> However, serious mistakes were made:


 I agree there too.



			
				rhisiart said:
			
		

> 1. A manager who doesnt understand that Rooney is there to support the striker up front, not _be_ the man up front himself (leading to Rooney becoming unnecessarily frustrated and prone to foolishness).


Yup...  I also think the systems we've been using might add to confusion, with players being a bit fish-out-of-water-like at times; that can't help our performances.



			
				rhisiart said:
			
		

> 2. The typical bottling out of otherwise excellent players in international tournaments, e.g. Frank Lampard.


Agreed, again.  Time and time again, excellent players who can do amazing things at club level, seem to go to pot when it comes to the world stage.  It's almost inexplicable, as it is not down to better quality opposition or something like that, they sometimes miss very easy chances and make basic mistakes.



			
				rhisiart said:
			
		

> 3. An over long English premiership season, with not enough opportunity for the England squad to play 'friendlies' and bond.


I don't know.  This is possible, but I've never been too sure where I stand on this.



			
				rhisiart said:
			
		

> 4. A post-1966 arrogance that England deserves to win the World cup.


I'm not sure if it went as far as people feeling England somehow *deserved* it from the start.  I had the feeling it was more a feeling of frustration that England have underachieved for decades now, that the fans feel "forty years of hurt," as it were, and that we now have a collection of young, talented players.  It was more that the conditions felt right, or very promising, for the first time in a long time, and so we didn't want to miss this chance after the numerous disappointments of the past (especially in recent years).



			
				rhisiart said:
			
		

> Dont miss understand me. I may be Welsh, but I wanted England to triumph. I feel very sorry for England fans. They have been badly let down.


I think I understand you, and it all seems pretty fair.  Thanks.


----------



## Veljo (Jul 2, 2006)

I watched the English game, and while they haven't played that great this World Cup, they played pretty well against Portugal. It's a shame that it had to come down to penalties, cause then it's basically all about luck.

Anyway, I'm still hoping Italy get knocked out by Germany in the semis after their free ticket into the quarters from that stupid call in the Australian game. Germany vs. France I'm probably tipping for.


----------



## lilbandit (Jul 2, 2006)

David Beckham retired as captain and probably will not play for England again. I read this morning that he had a knee injury (not sure if it was picked up in first half or before the game) followed by a discussion at half time and it was decided that he should play on based on the fact that he scored a free kick in a recent game. If this is true, it is the most bizarre setup I have ever heard of. "Discussion" at half time in a world cup quarter final?? It should be a quick word about changes if they need to be made and then a fire and brimstone rant to get the players ready to do battle for what could be their last match! England only started playing when Beckham went off!! I couldn't believe what I was watching. Team spirit, grit and hard running were typical English footballing traits that were brushed aside under Ericsson and Beckham. 
I thought that England did enough to scrape a result but had Lennon started I think the game might have gone England's way. I also saw Sven Goran on Sky News saying that he was sorry and that he didn't think that they deserved to go home yet. If I was an English fan my blood would boil at that sort of comment. Looking at all of England's results in qualification, group and knockout stages how can he feel that England did enough to merit further progress? They just didn't play well enough and another penalty shootout defeat that could have been avoided now means that that yet another England team will shake at the prospect of another shootout in a couple of years at the Euros.


----------



## reed (Jul 2, 2006)

bbloke, lilbandit, fryke & gang,

  bbloke & "rosbifs", sorry for the defeat. I saw England vs France. Could have been fun. France is back together and on a run. You can not believe how so many supporters here were putting down Domenech and his tactics. Now they are putting on their blue jerseys again.Going with the wind for some. Brazil was a "Paper Tiger," Zidane/Henry/defence were in pretty good shape and there was an okay Referee.That was basically the match.They won it correctly.
  Portugal has a lot of yellow cards and a couple of red ones. Zidane too. This will be the tough one, after Brazil.

  If it is any consolation bbloke, the French commentator on Canal+ during the England vs Portugal match was very PRO England.Yes indeed. Even during penalties:
  "Lampard never misses a penalty!!! Ohhh, Noooo!!!" Gerrard..."he never misses a penalty!!! Incredible!!!!" Carragher...... "never.... " etc. The Portugese fans here caught that. Try to figure that one out.
  I stick with my prediction: France-Germany. French winning. Gulp.
  That is, if the Italians don't make too much "cinema." or the ref. doesn't play their game.

 Cheers all the same.


----------



## Ferdinand (Jul 2, 2006)

France  - Germany, I think Germany will win - tough team, really strong right now. About Italy, they will once again have their so-called "real" fouls during the game, but they will lose, exept if the ref is against them...
Ferdinand

PS: Even though I think Germany will win against France, it will be a tough game, but Zidane... not sure about Germany any more.


----------



## fryke (Jul 2, 2006)

While I don't actually _believe_ in it much, I actually hope Italy will win against Germany, Portugal will win against France, and Portugal will finally beat the Italians in the final game. Portugal all the way. If only to let Scholari win and bring _some_ Brazil-game back into the World Cup.  (No, I don't know what illusions are...)


----------



## bbloke (Jul 2, 2006)

I'm hoping that Italy beat Germany and that France beat Portugal.  After that, hmmm, I'm not sure who I prefer.


----------



## bbloke (Jul 2, 2006)

reed and lilbandit: Thanks for the friendly comments.  People here are obviously disappointed, but there are still a fair number of flags flying.  It is comparatively recently that the English have felt it is OK to fly the flag (St. George's Cross), actually.  

David Beckham is indeed stepping down as captain, and I have mixed feelings.  I think he has done well over the years, and he certainly is a skillful player.  In this tournament, however, he really has not been on form, although he did also play an important role on a small number of occasions... including scoring a goal!

Eriksson has brought mixed reactions.  He has not filled me with confidence, and his style does not always seem to fit well with the English style, but I was surprised to learn he had the best record of any England manager.  He did lead England to victory over Argentina (in the 2002 World Cup) and also was manager when England beat Germany 5-1 (in Germany).  Then again... he was coach when England recently lost 2-1 to Northern Ireland (!), so it is hard to know what to make of it all!

England only started to show their proper character in their final match when Rooney was sent off and when Beckham was off the pitch, it's true.  Hopefully it was a coincidence (i.e. that Beckham and Rooney were not holding England back somehow), or that it was simply England coming out fighting when the chips were down.

Other issues aside, England just never really caught fire and didn't play well enough.  They underachieved, basically; they did not play like we know they could, and the nation is left asking itself why.  People are questioning the formations, the management, the captain, the choice of the squad, the injuries and fitness levels, the media, and the abilities of the players (and all English players vs. Continental players in general).  I hope a witchhunt won't ensue, it would be more helpful to just know where we've been going so wrong for years.  Like I said before, I think Spain and The Netherlands are two other nations who sadly don't quite manage to do as well as they should.

Mmmmmm:

World Cup 1990: Semi-Finals, lost to Germany on penalties
Euro 1996: Semi-Finals, lost to Germany on penalties
World Cup 1998: Round 2, lost to Argentina on penalties
(World Cup 2002: Quarter-Finals, OK, lost to Brazil "normally")
Euro 2004: Quarter-Finals, lost to Portugal on penalties
World Cup 2006: Quarter-Finals, lost to Portugal on penalties

This is getting _annoying_!


----------



## mw84 (Jul 3, 2006)

Aslong as Portugal get knocked out at the first possible opportunity I'll be happy. Ronaldo picking up an injury along the way would add to that glee, obviously.


----------



## lilbandit (Jul 3, 2006)

Ronaldo will surely leave Manchester United now? Apparently Rooney tried to get into the Portuguese dressing room after the match to 'Talk' to him!!


----------



## fryke (Jul 3, 2006)

What. You seriously think that Rooney should _not_ have seen a red card mw84?


----------



## reed (Jul 3, 2006)

There was a guy on the radio here (obviously thinking the French would win against Brazil) who said, "why doesn't the Argentine Team wait a day or two, that way the Brazilian team can share the same flight back. Saves a lot of money."
  Times are tough during the World Cup.
  An Italian friend here is busting balls in the local café. "Italy vs Portugal" for the final.
  The barkeep, Bernard,the Frenchman who said France will go to the demi-finals, says...."how much do you want to bet?" So far no cash. Only a Kir or a coffee.  Germany/France all the way. And Bernard insists: "And we will beat them in their home country!" Who knows. In any case he has been correct since the beginning. 
  The "Portos" here can swing in any direction seeing how they are many who are French citizens. A good buddy here, José, keeps saying, "hey, may the best team win." However, I know he has stocked a few bottles just in case.... hoping "they" beat the French.


----------



## mw84 (Jul 3, 2006)

Well, for a start he was pulled back by Carvalho before he stepped on his balls, which I don't think was either intentional or the reason he was sent off. I personally think he got sent off for pushing Ronaldo. 

The red card was deserved, I'm not saying it wasn't, the thing that irritates me is that the entire thing had _nothing_ to do with Ronaldo, there was no need to come over and provoke Rooney like he did and it was obvious he knew what he was doing, he even gave a little wink to towards the bench just after Rooney had been sent off.


----------



## Rhisiart (Jul 3, 2006)

bbloke said:
			
		

> People here are obviously disappointed, but there are still a fair number of flags flying.  It is comparatively recently that the English have felt it is OK to fly the [English] flag (St. George's Cross).


If I were an Englishman, I would fly the flag with pride.



			
				bbloke said:
			
		

> David Beckham is indeed stepping down as captain, and I have mixed feelings. I think he has done well over the years, and he certainly is a skilful player.


I agree. He has his critics, but he is a workhorse like Gerrard (although of course they are very different players) and I think he has matured immensely over the years. To say that England played better with Lennon after Beckham left the field is like comparing apples and pears. Lennon and Beckham would work very well together.



			
				bbloke said:
			
		

> Eriksson has brought mixed reactions. He has not filled me with confidence, and his style does not always seem to fit well with the English style, but I was surprised to learn he had the best record of any England manager. He did lead England to victory over Argentina (in the 2002 World Cup) and also was manager when England beat Germany 5-1 (in Germany).  Then again... he was coach when England recently lost 2-1 to Northern Ireland (!), so it is hard to know what to make of it all!


You may be right, but I think he lost the plot in this World Cup. Conspiracy theorists would argue that he gave up on England a long time ago after persistent press intrusion, and really didnt care whether England did well in this competition or not.



			
				bbloke said:
			
		

> England only started to show their proper character in their final match when Rooney was sent off and when Beckham was off the pitch, it's true. Hopefully it was a coincidence (i.e. that Beckham and Rooney were not holding England back somehow), or that it was simply England coming out fighting when the chips were down.


I think Lennon made a big difference. However, that should not detract from Beckhams's important contribution in the England side. It was the crazy strategy of leaving Rooney on his own that fecked up the game. Curiously, Crouch proved better at holding the ball (with excellent ball control) than Rooney.



			
				bbloke said:
			
		

> Other issues aside, England just never really caught fire and didn't play well enough. They underachieved, basically; they did not play like we know they could, and the nation is left asking itself why.  People are questioning the formations, the management, the captain, the choice of the squad, the injuries and fitness levels, the media, and the abilities of the players (and all English players vs. Continental players in general). I hope a witch hunt won't ensue, it would be more helpful to just know where we've been going so wrong for years.  Like I said before, I think Spain and The Netherlands are two other nations who sadly don't quite manage to do as well as they should.


I agree.



			
				bbloke said:
			
		

> Mmmmmm:
> 
> World Cup 1990: Semi-Finals, lost to Germany on penalties
> Euro 1996: Semi-Finals, lost to Germany on penalties
> ...


Well try being a Welsh soccer supporter. You think you've got it bad!

World Cup 1990: Failed to qualify
Euro 1996: Failed to qualify 
World Cup 1998: Failed to qualify 
World Cup 2002: Failed to qualify 
Euro 2004: Failed to qualify 
World Cup 2006: Failed to qualify


----------



## Rhisiart (Jul 3, 2006)

fryke said:
			
		

> What. You seriously think that Rooney should _not_ have seen a red card mw84?


Yes, but for recklessness, rather than violent conduct. I don't think Rooney did what he did out of spite. He was over zealous, but not malicious.


----------



## bbloke (Jul 3, 2006)

fryke said:
			
		

> What. You seriously think that Rooney should _not_ have seen a red card mw84?


I don't think you should make it sound like anyone who disagrees with you is crazy...

If it was a deliberate stamp, then he absolutely deserves to be sent off for it and disciplined.  There is no place for that sort of thing in the game and he would get no sympathy from me.  If it was not deliberate, then he doesn't deserve any disciplinary measures at all.

Opinion is divided.  At the time, I was astonished by the red card, and everyone was outraged, assuming it was for a minor push (especially as I remember a Portguese player shoving Ashley Cole over, in the back, once he knew he wouldn't get the ball, but he didn't get the slightest reprimand).  When people started to think it was about the "stamping" (and the referee did not react towards Rooney or produce any cards until after the push), people genuinely were not sure whether it was deliberate or not.  It just isn't a cut-and-dried thing.

I suggest you look at the slow motion replay.  Rooney was being harassed for some time in the build up to that, and he was fouled right under the referee's nose.  Nothing was done.  He kept getting knocked down but was being honest and kept trying to get up.  When he made the contentious move, he had been fighting for his balance for awhile and his eyes were forward, not looking at the player behind him.  I therefore feel he was trying to get up and battle on, not attack a player right next to the referee.  Sure, I could be wrong, but that is my honest belief now and was then too.  I also feel that if Rooney lost his cool and intended to lash out... erm... he would have done a more proper job of it!

If you saw the match, you will also have seen Ronaldo very early on "headbutt" (with little force) Rooney in the back of the head and say something to him which didn't look pleasant.  After Rooney was sent off, you will also see Ronaldo give a wry wink to the sidelines and pursed lips.  All very innocent?  He has had a reputation in the UK for cheating beforehand (while playing for Manchester United... nothing to do with games against England), and this certainly will not have helped.  I do not think Ronaldo single-handedly threw England out of the World Cup or anything like that (see my earlier posts), but I do consider him to generally be a cheating little ****.


----------



## bbloke (Jul 3, 2006)

I've just noticed that Rooney has now commented, by the way:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/world_cup_2006/5141510.stm



			
				BBC said:
			
		

> "I want to say absolutely categorically that I did not intentionally put my foot down on Carvalho," said Rooney.
> 
> The 20-year-old added: "I bear no ill feeling to Cristiano but am disappointed he chose to get involved."





			
				BBC said:
			
		

> "I remember the incident clearly and have seen it several times since on TV," he said.
> 
> "I am of the same opinion now as I was at the time that what happened didn't warrant a red card. If anything, I feel we should have had a free-kick for the fouls committed on me during the same incident.
> 
> ...


----------



## bbloke (Jul 3, 2006)

rhisiart said:
			
		

> If I were an Englishman, I would fly the flag with pride.


Awww, thanks.   




			
				rhisiart said:
			
		

> I agree. He has his critics, but he is a workhorse like Gerrard (although of course they are very different players) and I think he has matured immensely over the years.


I agree.  I was puzzled by him becoming captain at first, but then came to think it was a good arrangement. 



			
				rhisiart said:
			
		

> To say that England played better with Lennon after Beckham left the field is like comparing apples and pears. Lennon and Beckham would work very well together.


Possibly; I certainly hope so!




			
				rhisiart said:
			
		

> You may be right, but I think he lost the plot in this World Cup. Conspiracy theorists would argue that he gave up on England a long time ago after persistent press intrusion, and really didnt care whether England did well in this competition or not.


I'd hope that was not the case.  Some players said he became more lively in recent times, actually, rather than being his seemingly, usual, emotionless self!




			
				rhisiart said:
			
		

> I think Lennon made a big difference. However, that should not detract from Beckhams's important contribution in the England side.


I agree on both counts.



			
				rhisiart said:
			
		

> It was the crazy strategy of leaving Rooney on his own that fecked up the game.


I was in favor of it at first, as I thought England would have a solid defence, a defensive midfielder, and a strong midfield in general, with two attacking midfielders.  In practice, it didn't seem to work as well as hoped up front, but, then again, 4-4-2 was not going that well either!



			
				rhisiart said:
			
		

> Curiously, Crouch proved better at holding the ball (with excellent ball control) than Rooney.


I usually groaned when Crouch got the ball, as I always felt sure he'd lose it soon enough, but Rooney didn't always keep the ball that well either.  Hargreaves actually seemed one of the players most in control, and he took the battle to the opposite end of the field on more than one occasion.




			
				rhisiart said:
			
		

> Well try being a Welsh soccer supporter. You think you've got it bad!
> 
> World Cup 1990: Failed to qualify
> Euro 1996: Failed to qualify
> ...


Ooooh, you win!


----------



## fryke (Jul 3, 2006)

Well, I'm sure Rooney doesn't walk around saying "Sorry!" now. He's not the type. I'm not defending C. Ronaldo, btw. - I agree with what you say about him. I also saw that C. Ronaldo and others tried (and obviously managed) to make Rooney angry. But if he can't stay the heat... If you try to see Rooney _not_ through British eyes, you'll see a young man rushing headlong. And the refs clearly have had the guideline to show cards when fouls are hazardous to the attacked player's health.


----------



## bbloke (Jul 3, 2006)

I've felt rather patronized here, and so feel I have to respond.

[Edit: I should clarify that I don't mean this in a wider sense in this thread.  I am referring solely to being accused of seeing things a certain way only because of national bias (see above post), implying I have no valid reason for my views, only jingoism.]



			
				fryke said:
			
		

> Well, I'm sure Rooney doesn't walk around saying "Sorry!" now.  He's not the type.


For a start, you're not being fair.  You seem to see it as: Rooney fouled someone, he _meant_ to foul someone with malice, and he's not a decent enough person to apologize if he did.  You're making a big judgement: "Rooney's a Bad Person."  

_If_: (1) he _is_ innocent and  (2) it was an accident and  (3) he was sent off unfairly, do you really still expect an apology?   

_If_ he is _not_ innocent then OK, but then we also have to apply this comment to everyone, not just the English.  What about the Portuguese?  Do you see other Portuguese players apologizing for diving and for any fouls?  How about Figo in the match with The Netherlands?  There, he clearly _headbutted_ someone.  Figo got off *incredibly* lightly.  I don't see you calling for a red card against him, expecting an apology, and attacking his character.  Plus, I think that case was much less ambiguous than this one...  The difference is: you support Portugal and Figo is Portuguese.



			
				fryke said:
			
		

> I also saw that C. Ronaldo and others tried (and obviously managed) to make Rooney angry. But if he can't stay the heat...


Putting the issue to one side whether or not Rooney was angry and lashed out, or whether it was an accident...  You really must apply your attitudes equally, as Portuguese players have lashed out in recent times.  By your own measure, Figo should not be playing either.  Nor Deco.  And others. 



			
				fryke said:
			
		

> If you try to see Rooney _not_ through British eyes, you'll see a young man rushing headlong.


OK, *this* is the comment which irked me and made me feel I had to reply.  If only I was less biased and more honest, I'd see things like you do, eh?  I don't appreciate the implication that I am somehow blinkered, while you are above such things.

Have you actually watched the video?  "A young man rushing headlong" eh?  I've watched the video repeatedly, and I fail to see Rooney dangerously rushing in somehow.  I see him with the ball and desperately trying to stay upright and keep possession, while being hacked at...  I have to agree with Rooney's statement, most other teams *ahem* would have just dived and taken the foul.

Furthermore, you state something about seeing things through "British eyes."  Ignoring the fact that the Welsh, Scots, and Northern Irish might not be too keen on you lumping them in as being the same as the English, you're being simplistic.  I've already stated that opinion in this country seems divided about what happened.  In addition, I work with people from a range of countries (outside of the UK) and, from what I hear, it is not just the English who have a few things to say about that match.

This first came up with the conversation about Urs Meier, a Swiss referee who made decisions against England/in favor of Portugal.  You seemed to portray me as biased as an England-supporter, but how can you, a _Swiss Portugal-supporter_, really tell me objectively and in very absolute terms what was "_right_"?  Surely you would be doubly-biased, if anything!    This followed on to when we come to the similar subject of Rooney (i.e. another England vs. Portugal situation) and it again comes down to me being on the English side, and you being a Portugal supporter, but you seemingly imply I'm the only one seeing things through biased eyes.

I have mentioned and accepted pro-English bias.  I have also stated I'm open to being wrong.  My contention is this: I feel this is one-way.


----------



## bbloke (Jul 5, 2006)

Last night's Semi-Final between Italy and Germany looked very good.  Neither side sat back too much, both went for goals.  It could have easily turned out to be a very nervous match, with both sides too afraid of conceding a goal.  As it turned out, both played well.  

I had the perception that Italy might have just had a slight edge, but there was not a lot in it.  The game was also played in a decent enough spirit and the referee did a good job, especially as he set the tone by not going card-crazy early in the game.  The two goals were very good, and it must have been heart-breaking for Germany.  The Italians could not have left it _much_ later...........

Congratulations to Italy and commiserations to Germany.  It was one of those games where you almost don't want either side to lose!


----------



## fryke (Jul 5, 2006)

(Deco, btw., _did_ get a red card, didn't he...) ... I think you took my message down the wrong throat, and yeah I do mix up British/English/UK/Common Wealth a lot. So I meant English eyes. Sorry 'bout that. And yes, bbloke, I've seen the videos, too. I've seen them again and again, and I was in the middle of English fans with a Portugal shirt, and it was _difficult_ for me as well, I didn't think it helped the game overall (and above all, I want to see good games at World Cups), but that kick in the balls was clear, and after a while, even the English fans in the pub I was at agreed that for this he got the red card... But let's let it rest, please.

I agree about Italy vs. Germany, btw. Good game, although I _did_ hope we'd see more goals (for both sides).


----------



## reed (Jul 5, 2006)

Bad tactics by the Germans. Hoping for penalties. Too bad seeing how they were the host country and have a great (future) team. Italy throws in the reserves. Same error with Argentina. One goal....let us run the clock out. Attack. Always attack till the whistle blows.


----------



## Rhisiart (Jul 5, 2006)

fryke said:
			
		

> ... and yeah I do mix up British/English/UK/Commonwealth (sic) a lot.


In my experience, most non-Brits don't understand this British/English/UK thing for the simple fact that they don't want to. However, I am sure this does not apply to you .



			
				fryke said:
			
		

> ... yes, bbloke, I've seen the videos, too. I've seen them again and again, &#8230; but let's let it rest, please.


I think bbloke thinks you were dismissing him, i.e._ &#8220;looking at Rooney through British (sic) eyes&#8221;_, perhaps implying that he is blind to any opposing opinion. (Sorry - didn't let it rest did I?).



			
				fryke said:
			
		

> I agree about Italy vs. Germany, btw. Good game, although I _did_ hope we'd see more goals (for both sides).


Yes, a truly wonderful spectacle of football. I was surprised to see such good sportsmanship from the Italian team. Perhaps they had been warned before the game to play fair. Ironically, it seems that when they do their football improves.


----------



## bbloke (Jul 5, 2006)

(Sorry this post is so long... I'm trying to make sure I've said everything I need to, and I'm looking for different angles to make my point if I haven't done so already.)



			
				rhisiart said:
			
		

> fryke said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks, rhisiart. 

This is basically it: I feel dismissed quickly and patronized, as I'm effectively told I need to be "put right" by someone who allegedly knows better than me and seems to think they are not also biased.



			
				fryke said:
			
		

> (Deco, btw., _did_ get a red card, didn't he...)


Well, he didn't, actually. Not in the way that I'm talking about. Deco got a yellow card for a reckless tackle when he was angry. He then got a second yellow card, which leads to a red, for messing about with the ball ("time wasting") at a later stage. That's two yellows, not a single red for an aggressive act. Therefore, Deco and Figo did *not* get red cards when they lashed out in anger.

Also, what I was mainly referring to was your phrase "But if he can't stay the heat..." The saying "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen" means "Dont take on a job if you are unwilling to face its pressures" ( http://www.bartleby.com/59/3/ifyoucantsta.html). So I'm saying if you think Rooney shouldn't be playing because of his temper, then surely neither should more than one of the Portuguese side. I'm applying your own rules to your own team, basically.



			
				fryke said:
			
		

> ... I think you took my message down the wrong throat


I certainly hope so, but it didn't _seem_ that way in the light of the rest of the conversation.

The crux of it to me is this: we are *both* biased. *Neither* of us is truly objective and therefore neither can talk in absolute terms to the other.  Life is never that simple.

So that we could move on, I just hoped for an indication that you were not peering down your nose at me, not telling me you know best, not saying that a pro-Portugal bias does not affect you, and not saying that my views are "wrong" and based purely in bias, rather than facts. I feel I didn't get that, alas. 



			
				fryke said:
			
		

> But let's let it rest, please.


I agree with this and genuinely _want_ to, but I find it very difficult because the following bits of text seem to indicate to me that nothing's changed... 



			
				fryke said:
			
		

> but *that kick in the balls was clear*


 You see? How can I feel like we've moved on when you say this sort of thing? It's not a problem that you disagree with me, that's fine.  It's the manner in which you talk down to me.  You just tell me I'm flat out wrong and there can be no room for uncertainty.  I've tried to talk about what I saw, what people of _other nationalities_ saw, of me _accepting my own national bias_, of me _being open to being wrong_, how _you will be biased too_, and so on. But I feel the reply I get is basically a very simple and a very absolutist: "......_You're still wrong_."  I'm surprised and disappointed by this.

Also, with something _so difficult to judge_ (as you agree), I find it amazing that anyone could say that it _definitely_ or _clearly_ was or was not a deliberate stamp...



			
				fryke said:
			
		

> even the English fans in the pub I was at agreed that for this he got the red card...


Agreed that is what he was sent off for? Well, it was, according to the referee's report!

If you mean that it was a deliberate foul... then... again... some English fans think it was deliberate, some don't. Some non-English viewers think it was deliberate, some don't. I've already stated that opinion is divided, so I don't find this statement achieves anything.

To repeat: I both accept that I have national bias and accept that I may be wrong in my interpretation of events.  The issue for me is that is appears as if only one of the two of us accepts these things about themself.



			
				fryke said:
			
		

> I agree about Italy vs. Germany, btw. Good game


Yup, it was. Some have even said they thought it was the best game of the tournament.

Tonight's match between France and Portugal should be interesting, and there were some comments in the media by Gallas.  Here's hoping France are on form and that the match is played fairly by both sides.  This is one of the very few occasions that I'll actively cheer on France!


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## bbloke (Jul 5, 2006)

reed said:
			
		

> Bad tactics by the Germans. Hoping for penalties.


And Italy certainly seemed *worried* about it going to penalties! 



			
				reed said:
			
		

> Too bad seeing how they were the host country and have a great (future) team.


True.  I do feel a little sorry for them.  And they have been good hosts so far to all the foreign fans.


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## Ferdinand (Jul 5, 2006)

Just watching the France game - looks good till now - but I am for the Portugese (how do you write this, anyway?).
Ferdinand


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## mw84 (Jul 5, 2006)

Nice to see Portugal down at half time, what a shame they didn't get that penalty off Ronaldos obvious dive.


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## bbloke (Jul 5, 2006)

mw84 said:
			
		

> Nice to see Portugal down at half time, what a shame they didn't get that penalty off Ronaldos obvious dive.


lol  

The BBC have been describing Portugal's play as full of "disgraceful antics," which is about right.  If companies could sponsor national teams, I think Speedo would sponsor Portugal!   

France win 1-0.  Not a great game, but France did enough, the Portguese didn't really threaten to score.  Thank goodness the referee was not conned by the ridiculous acting...


So, France vs. Italy next!


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## fryke (Jul 5, 2006)

I'd say the French played awfully, and the Portuguese weren't better. This wasn't really a good match by either team, I think. Sure, the French did "enough". But seeing that Argentina, Spain, England, Switzerland (who were clearly better than the French in the first round) and Germany are out, I truly feel that the final sees a team which I can't really agree with.

bbloke: I really didn't mean to talk down on you. Maybe it was a poor choice of words. And you're _right_, of course, in that I'm biased as well. I didn't want to imply that I'm some sort of neutral, all-knowing authority. I'm most certainly not. But football, I think, does favour such talk. As long as you're winning, you forget about the mistakes of your team. And the first things that come to mind when your team loses, are unfair players on the other side, referees, maybe the trainer and the last line would be your own team. That's how I feel most fans react. I _try_ to have a rational view. It's maybe easier for a Swiss, because the expectations aren't that high for my own team. And when I'm rooting for Portugal and Brazil, that's more enjoying their kind of football. Of course I'm also angry when they don't play fair or worse: If they play badly - and Brazil certainly did that. So did Portugal in the past two games.

Now... What's left? Italy showed me some good football. The Italy of old I didn't like. But it's the French who today played like the earlier Italy. So I hope that Italy can find a good and fair way to beat the French.


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## bbloke (Jul 5, 2006)

Thanks, fryke.  I think I can agree with most of that, and we'll move on.  Water under the bridge now.   

I think I have a strong sense of justice/fairplay, and this is why I get worked up over referees, regardless of who is actually playing.  (OK, it's relative as people might disagree on what is fair and what is not, I just mean I place emphasis on the idea of "fairness.")  Remember I was heavily criticizing an English referee in the tournament, too.  I think that referees influence games so much, as bad decisions can massively sway the order of play and they set the tone by how disciplined they are, that I guess the stakes are high.  This is the problem: they could, even perfectly innocently/accidentally, strongly influence the nature or outcome of the game.  What if a referee accidentally blocked a crucial pass that was going to cut into a team's defence?  And so on.  If someone referees well, people won't remember them.  If they referee badly, they will have their name recorded in stone.   

As for tonight's game, I don't think France played well.  They looked a bit off.  I don't think the Portuguese played well, either, and I think it's a shame; they do have good players, but they can bring the game into disrepute by the way they play.  If France want to beat Italy, I think they'll need to improve...  

I'm not necessarily convinced that the final two teams were the best in the tournament, but that's the way these things go!  Argentina really looked very strong, but lost to Germany.  Germany were not highly rated initially, but really got going and looked unstoppable at points.  Brazil had the ability, but never played well and were possibly guilty of arrogance.  Spain looked great too, but fizzled out later.  The Netherlands also looked great, but I couldn't stand the way they played later on, especially with Robben's behavior.  

It's been an interesting tournament so far.  Some great play, some... erm... not-so-great play.  The number of bookings has been a bit of a joke and FIFA probably need to think about this again.  All in all, it has been entertaining so far, and the Germans have been good hosts.


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## Rhisiart (Jul 5, 2006)

Amazing the way the crowd booed C Ronaldo during the entire game. Ferguson will have his guts for garter.


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## bbloke (Jul 5, 2006)

rhisiart said:
			
		

> Amazing the way the crowd booed C Ronaldo during the entire game.


Agreed.  He seems to be one very unpopular player at the moment.  Unfortunately, it seems to be deserved.  He's very talented and a bright hope for the future, but his game really needs cleaning up a lot.  Mmm, I am concerned that if he continues to "play rather unfairly," he will eventually meet his match in terms of an opposing player who takes a dislike to his antics, where this opponent may also "play unfairly," but in a rather more physical way......  I think Ronaldo has to be careful, he may be a bit young-and-naive at the moment.


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## mw84 (Jul 5, 2006)

I agree bbloke. I am a Millwall fan myself and if he plays at The Den or somewhere similar (which I know isn't very likely anytime soon) but if he does, he's going to have a hard time playing the way he does. It won't only be from the players but the supporters also, who in general are a bit more 'critical' shall we say, than the average England fan.


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## bbloke (Jul 6, 2006)

Oh my goodness, C. Ronaldo's been making bizarre comments in the media...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/world_cup_2006/teams/portugal/5153086.stm




			
				BBC said:
			
		

> But after Wednesday's match in Munich, which France won 1-0, Ronaldo, 21, said: "I was pleased about being booed.
> 
> "Maybe France fans were upset to see a dangerous player. I'm not worried."


Is he joking or does he just utterly not get it?... 

 


			
				BBC said:
			
		

> Ronaldo preferred to focus on the performance of referee Jorge Larrionda, claiming the Uruguayan was biased against his side.





			
				BBC said:
			
		

> "We played well and did our best but the referee didn't help us," said the Manchester United player. ...
> 
> "Everyone who saw the match could see that the referee wasn't fair.
> 
> "He should have shown yellow cards but he did not because Portugal is a small country.


LOL   

Yeah, wasn't fair in that Portugal didn't get yellow and red cards for the most disgusting acting!  I'm not sure how he can complain for not getting awarded fouls when the camera showed dives without physical contact...


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## reed (Jul 6, 2006)

A lot of "diving" with the Portugese but a tough nut to break all the same. Thuram/Barthez/Zidane..."the old folks" tops. Any thoughts on Italy/France anyone?


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## bbloke (Jul 6, 2006)

reed said:
			
		

> A lot of "diving" with the Portugese but a tough nut to break all the same.


True.  They have a good coach and they do have some talented players, but the "gamesmanship," shall we say, would not be used if it _didn't_ make life more difficult for their opponents.   



			
				reed said:
			
		

> Thuram/Barthez/Zidane..."the old folks" tops. Any thoughts on Italy/France anyone?


I think Italy will be too much for them.  France have the potential to be very good, and they played well against Brazil, but I don't think they can quite match Italy, if Italy play well.  But, hey, there have been a number of surprises so far, so it will be difficult to predict the final winner!


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## reed (Jul 6, 2006)

Indeed bbloke. 
   Who will be in the Blue Jersey Sunday seeing both teams are "les bleus." That was the comment from an Italien friend here. I won't even tell you how much a French Team jersey goes for now. If they are in stock. How things change very quickly when one is in the winner's circle. Even the Portugese here are putting them on.....except on Saturday for the third place. That may be a very good match. Cheers.


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## mw84 (Jul 6, 2006)

I agree, yellow cards should of been shown. One to Figo for his boot to the face of (Abidal?), Ronaldo for continuous diving and Fogo for diving. To say the referee is biased after getting away with all that and then claiming it's because Portugal is a 'small country' is just hilarious. 

England is a pretty small country, maybe that's why we lost too.


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## Rhisiart (Jul 6, 2006)

mw84 said:
			
		

> England is a pretty small country, maybe that's why we lost too.


England may only be one-third bigger in size than Portugal, but it has five times as many people. However, size doesn't matter (apparently).


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## bbloke (Jul 6, 2006)

rhisiart said:
			
		

> England may only be one-third bigger in size than Portugal, but it has five times as many people. However, size doesn't matter (apparently).


lol

Yes, it's... erm... how you... *use*... it (the people).   So I'm told.


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## fryke (Jul 6, 2006)

Hey! Don't talk about small countries. Switzerland was definitely the smallest country in the second round, eh?  ... Final: I'm for Italy. Think I've said it before. I simply don't think France should win this. Italy has shown they can take on a challenge.


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## reed (Jul 7, 2006)

Speaking of small countries. Why doesn't the Vatican have a team? They have the funds and the Swiss. I know.... this is silly. Sorry.

 As for Italy. Why not. Could be a good revenge. They sure do want it. However...."ce n'est pas possible" according to the true supporters here. Those that refused to not give up on their team since the beginning, unlike so many journalists and fair weather fans.


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## Rhisiart (Jul 7, 2006)

reed said:
			
		

> Speaking of small countries. Why doesn't the Vatican have a team? They have the funds and the Swiss.


Yea, and what a great kit they would have.







(P.S. See image below for dissapointed England fans)


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## reed (Jul 7, 2006)

Okay. Portugal vs Germany for the third place anyone?


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## bbloke (Jul 8, 2006)

I was expecting Germany to win and, perhaps expectedly, they did.  It was nice for Germany to end the tournament on some sort of high.  I felt a bit sorry for them after they lost in the Semi-Finals, having exceeded expectations and played some very attacking games.  As I say, they seem to have been good hosts for all the teams and the fans.

So, the Final tomorrow!   Both Italy and France have solid defences.  France has some older, but very talented, players.  Personally, I'd prefer it if Italy won and feel the Italian team might just have the edge.  Some of France's team were looking quite tired recently, too.  I'd probably predict a 2-1 win to Italy.


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## Ferdinand (Jul 9, 2006)

I also want Italy to win. I think it will be 1-1 and then in the last minutes, Italy shoots a goal. 2-1 for Italy. What I dont like about the French team is, that most of em are not even French. Its unfair, because everyone knows, that Africans have long legs (they always win marathons) and really can run fast. Thats unfair against other teams, because for example the German team has mostly Germans, Portugal mostly Portugeese, Spain has mostly Spanish in their team etc...


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## lilbandit (Jul 9, 2006)

I'd love to see Canavarro win a world cup medal, he's such a class act and a model captain. Italy might find it hard to score against the French defense though. Looking forward to a great match, will be very sorry that it will all be over by tonight...now where's that girlfriend of mine gone....!


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## reed (Jul 9, 2006)

Funny front page in Libération: a French newspaper here. A cartoon with the major French Ministers, Sarkozy & Co. what....posing like a football club in uniform and all. Chirac is laying down and on his jersey is written..."Zirac."
  One thing is sure people are honking horns already here. We'll see later on. I'm no expert, but I see France winning. A clue...look at Zidane's face when the teams comes upon the field at the opening. His determination seems to swing things. Just a theory. 
  May the best team win. Ciao.


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## bbloke (Jul 9, 2006)

So, what did everyone make of the final?  It certainly had some talking points!

Congratulations to Italy.  The match was not particularly decisive, as both Italy and France had moments of dominating the game, and Italy certainly started to look extremely tired by the end.

The penalty did not look like a penalty to me, although there was some small contact.  Hard to say.  The other penalty appeal by the French, ironically, looked more like a penalty to me but it was not awarded.  I think the referee was mainly OK.  It was good that he allowed the game to flow as much as possible, and he was not going along with the occasional diving by both sides.  Also, am I right in thinking Materazzi was involved in giving away the penalty, scoring the equilizer, *and* the sending off of Zidane?  Quite an influence on the game, then...

Of course, as mentioned, one of the biggest events was the sending off of Zidane...  Just *what was he thinking*? His behavior, caught on camera, looked to me to be aggressive and he lashed out at the Italian player with a strong headbutt to the guy's chest, knocking him over.  There is speculation that the Italian said something to him first.  Still, what a sour way for Zidane to leave international football.  As well as being remembered for being a great player, it will also be remembered that one of his last acts was to lash out, get sent off, and his team lost in the World Cup final.


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## lilbandit (Jul 9, 2006)

Watched the match too, thought it was very poor. Italy looked tired very early into the second half. Strange world cup, very few quality forwards shone. Klose did well but he's a relatively average player. Other than that, Henry, Ronaldhino, Ronaldo, Schevchenko...none of them grabbed any game by the scruff. We wound up with a final where both teams played with a lone striker and a packed midfield.
Have to say that I was delighted to see Canavarro picking up the world cup, what a fantastic player. Was absolutely stunned to see Zidane, what in the name of God was going through his head? Last professional game of his career, World Cup final with France a 1-1 heading for extra time, it doesn't matter what was said I just don't understand why a professional like Zidane who has surely had things said to him in the past would choose that moment to headbutt someone


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## mw84 (Jul 9, 2006)

I missed the first half, from what I saw in the second and extra time, France looked to be slightly (and ONLY slightly) the better team in that they seemed to be making more opportunities, unfortunately they didn't do much with those opportunities.

It was a shame that Zidane decided to end his career the way he did. His attack on Materazzi looked pretty vicious.


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## fryke (Jul 9, 2006)

I'm _quite_ certain that something had to be said that provoked this reaction. But I can't think of _anything_ that would necessarily cause this... Friend and I were reporting the game live in a club, and this really left us stunned. I think he simply damaged his image forever now. He'll always be the one who instead of winning the game chose to ruin his halo.

I'd say this was _not_ the best World Cup I ever saw. France, after the first half, did more for the game, I thought, but since neither team managed to get the round thing into the square thing before the end of the 120 minutes, it came down to the penalties. Which, I think, is not worthy of a World Cup final. Nice, though, that Italy, who was the only team ever to lose in a World Cup final in a penalty shoot-out (because there's only _been_ one 'til 2006), now also won one.


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## Ferdinand (Jul 10, 2006)

France expected to win, they didnt think that the Italians were so good. The second point is, they were already very tired - that also made them weak. In the second half they were already desperately trying to win, fouling a lot. It was a great shock for the French.


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## reed (Jul 10, 2006)

Ah Penalties! That's the way the cookie crumbles. Most folks here seem to be glad it is over and think..."hey we came this far. Pas mal non?"
  I think Thurman was the most hurt by the loss. A great player and a gentleman.
  Of course the Zidane finish is on people's mind. Materazzi DID say something to Zidane. But what for him to blow his cool at such a critical moment? So unlike him. Lip readers are trying to figure it out. One theory...  he called him a "terrorist." But that is just a theory.
  Also that the fourth referee used a video on the call which is strictly forbidden and can only be used for sanctions posteriori. Of course Zidane mertited the sanction. Too bad. He is very good for penalty shots. Something the Italians new very well. Hmmm.
  Anyway, it's over. See you all for the European Cup.

 Make room for the Tour de France!!!!!


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## fryke (Jul 10, 2006)

I don't think it matters what Materazzi said, like I said above. And let's not forget how Zidane started out. How he was _before_ they won the World Cup in 1998. He wasn't exactly the "cool" player. Guess he still had it in him... But yeah, let's move on. September, I think, is when the qualification for the Euro 2008 starts. This should certainly get interesting, because there are a few teams which will change rather drastically. France is one of them. The old men won't come back. The question is, whether there are enough younger players to fill the voids. Figo won't come back either. But I think Portugal _does_ have the players there. We've also seen some teams who already switched to a younger generation, which by 2008 should definitely be ready and should hit their high in 2010 at the next World Cup. Holland. Switzerland. And not to forget: Germany.

A side note on Germany... I watched German television (ZDF) when they lost to Italy. After the game, one of the co-commentators said they should now look forward to 2008 and 2010. And the commentator said what was on my mind: "We first have to qualify for those as opposed to ths World Cup."


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## Rhisiart (Jul 10, 2006)

fryke said:


> I don't think it matters what Materazzi said ...


Quite. However, I think Zidane being in pain (i.e. the earlier shoulder injury) was probably a factor.

I'm not excusing him, of course.


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## fryke (Jul 10, 2006)

Well, now he's the player of the tournament. And the French still love him.


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## reed (Jul 10, 2006)

Italians are the champions for provaction and diving. "Can't play the ball go for the man." The Portugese were bad imitators in the France/Portugal match. Materazzi is well know in Italy for provacation and although a hero for the Cup an Italian journalist here gave him very low marks in terms of "how to win the game" and his (Italian) way of playing football in general. Rare for an Italian sports journalist...he added "Zidane went out by the small door, our team, in a certain way won through the small door. We have a great team for the future and the French will have to start from zero for the European Cup... but..."
Don't forget it wasn't just one remark it was an accumilation.A Trade Mark in which they are famous. The pro like Zidane fell into the trap. 
   Again, no matter, Zidane blew it and is out with a "bad taste" but when one considers his career and the man himself he will still be seen as one of the best. No? 

What's cooking with the Italian teams (JUV,Milan, etc.) by the way in terms of corruption?

Just a Ps. The Spanish Press were brutal against Zidane (Mr. RealMadrid) before, during and, of course, after Spain/France. "Love him when with us hate him when against us." Short memories. Like the French press as well.


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## fryke (Jul 10, 2006)

Well, it's like that with any big sports person, I guess. You're only as good as your last game. For example: Swiss goal keeper Pascal Zuberbühler. Before the World Cup, he was known as Switzerland's panic zone. _During_ the World Cup, he did not have to let _one_ goal happen before the penalty shoot-out against Ukraine. (And even there he held the first one.) So while the press _really_ put a lot of pressure on him before the World Cup, they're quite certainly making him a hero this month. But I'm sure that if he ever goes back to old habits, the press will take no minute to reflect on how good he was during the World Cup 2006.

However: As long as you're playing and the trainer trusts you, you can come back. I think Zidane chose a very bad moment for his bad moment. But I guess we all agree here.

If we ever _truly_ find out what happened (why not, _could_ be that both Zidane and Materazzi say the same thing...), there might be another discussion. But for now, if it isn't the image of the headbutt that stays with most people around the world, then it's going to be him walking down to the catacombs, you know which picture I mean: Walking down, the golden cup staying on the field, of course.


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## Rhisiart (Jul 11, 2006)

fryke said:


> ....then it's going to be him walking down to the catacombs, you know which picture I mean: Walking down, the golden cup staying on the field ...


That sounds like a passage from Dan Brown. Having you been reading the Da Vinci Code lately?


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## mw84 (Jul 11, 2006)

According to pretty much all the English papers this morning, they've had a lip reader in who speaks Italian and it's claimed that Materazzi had called Zidane a 'son of an Albanian wh*re' also there were implications that the word terrorist was used, which apparently most French Albanians are particularly touchy on. Bare in mind Zidanes mother had been taken into hospital the day before, if this is in fact what was said I personally think to _some_ extent, this would justify Zidanes actions.


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## reed (Jul 11, 2006)

mw84 said:


> According to pretty much all the English papers this morning, they've had a lip reader in who speaks Italian and it's claimed that Materazzi had called Zidane a 'son of an Albanian wh*re' also there were implications that the word terrorist was used, which apparently most French Albanians are particularly touchy on. Bare in mind Zidanes mother had been taken into hospital the day before, if this is in fact what was said I personally think to _some_ extent, this would justify Zidanes actions.



 Yes that seems to make sense. I think we are all agreed on all points, more or less. HE JUST SHOULD NOT HAVE GIVEN IN AT SUCH A CRITICAL MOMENT! Period.
  An Italian friend here showed me an Italian Press Poll concerning this affair. About half agreed with Zidane (should have punched him in the face to make the Red Card a real Red Card). Okay, now you are saying.... that's sporting but at the same time, he couldn't kick the penalty shot that was so badly needed.
   I don't know about you guys but I think we have had our say. Viva Football  and let us see what happens in the future. Could be "funny" the eliminations.
All the best.


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## fryke (Jul 11, 2006)

no, rhisiart. what exactly makes it sound like Dan Brown?


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## Rhisiart (Jul 11, 2006)

fryke said:


> no, rhisiart. what exactly makes it sound like Dan Brown?


The ethereal quality of your description - the catacombs thing, gold cup (chalice), i.e. nothing _exactly_. Just poetically written, if I may say so.

I am sure Zidane did not intend to do what he did last Sunday, but he will be remembered for being (i) one of the world's greatest footballers, and (ii) the guy that head-butted someone in a world cup final during his swan song. A very strange juxtaposition - a sort of double achievement of sorts.

He will have not lost any street cred either with fellow Berbers in France.

P.S. His web site is a tad commercial to say the least.


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## reed (Jul 12, 2006)

Anybody see the Zidane interview this evening?


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## Rhisiart (Jul 12, 2006)

reed said:


> Anybody see the Zidane interview this evening?


Yes. Zizou did not explicitly say what Materazzi said to him. I think we can therefore assume from this that the Italian didnt say anything that derogatory.


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## hawki18 (Jul 12, 2006)

France lost all is good.


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## reed (Jul 15, 2006)

viva Italia!


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## reed (Jul 15, 2006)

cybergeeks work very fast. Try the game............

http://www.addictinggames.com/zidaneheadbuttgame.html


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## Rhisiart (Jul 17, 2006)

BTW, who won the World Cup?


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## bbloke (Jul 17, 2006)

I believe it was The Blues...


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