# The column view - love it or leave it?



## habilis (Jan 18, 2003)

I'm slowly learning to like osx now. After 4 PAINFUL months of morphing over from OS9 I'm really learning to love the new features such Quartz font smoothing and the improved file sharing, etc.. I hardly even notice how slow I am anymore.

But one thing that's still is a thorn in my side is this columns view. Just how long does it take before I learn to like it? I still despise it. Clearly Apple isn't known for the abundance of options it gives to its users but couldn't they have included a "classic view" along with columns?

Is there a 3rd party program out there that can return the classic view to me and get my production levels back to par?

And finally, Microsoft has had the columns view for the last 10 years along with the Classic OS9 style. Why are we stepping back in time? And why is Apple acting more and more like Microsoft, and Microsoft acting more and more like Apple?


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## Sogni (Jan 18, 2003)

Personally I like Tree-Views - "List" view being the closest it still annoys me. I can't stand Column-View and wish the "Save As" dialog boxes wouldn't use them!


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## Giaguara (Jan 18, 2003)

Uh, i hate classic...


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## edX (Jan 18, 2003)

personally i like the column view. it saves a lot of time once you get used to it. it took me a while to learn to think the way it works, but once i got it, it makes more sense than the classic way. but i would also suggest you look into Default Folder X, a finder enhancement which will keep all your recently used folders and your favorites and... all arranged nicely for quick opening and saving.


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## phatcactus (Jan 18, 2003)

I can see how it could be more efficient, but column view just seems to waste quite a bit of space.  I really only need to see one directory at a time, for the most part, and option-double click works just fine.  

I too wish that open/save dialogs would use list view.

- Brian


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## fryke (Jan 18, 2003)

I wish the Finder would adhere to its settings to ALWAYS open new windows in column view. I _love_ column view. Together with spring loaded folders, it's the fastest way I've ever handled files...


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## TommyWillB (Jan 18, 2003)

I really dislike the multi-colum view in general... but I love that when you click on an image file it shows you a preveiw of the image.

It seems like something they borrowed from WinDoze, but I like it anyway...


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## TommyWillB (Jan 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by edX _
> *personally i like the column view. it saves a lot of time once you get used to it. it took me a while to learn to think the way it works, but once i got it...*


 The thing that is wrong about it to me is I always imaging drilling "down" into a directory tree... So I have sort of a vertical orientation here, but the column view is horizontal.

trying to get back "up" three levels, my brain just can't make the transition to moving left.

Also I really miss having the Path menu in Save dialogs...


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## TommyWillB (Jan 18, 2003)

<uh uh... this is turning into a rant>
...and another thing...

I tend to have a lot of loooooonnnnnggg filenames and I can't figure out any way to make those display correctly in the column view.

I hate seeing column lisings like this:
	
	



```
short file 1.txt
short file 2.txt
really long...le name.txt
really long...le name.txt
really long...le name.txt
short file 3.txt
short file 4.txt
```
I know ther three files listed are different, but the column view gives me know way to know for sure. And this has got me in trouble when trying to Save a file...
</rant>


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## hulkaros (Jan 19, 2003)

Column View is one of the best things in new Finder... If not the best!

Now, if they will make optional the same thing but vertically and call it the Row View then the Collumn View thing would be complete


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## Inline_guy (Jan 19, 2003)

Column view is my defult.  I really like it.


Matthew


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## Izzy (Jan 19, 2003)

I'm a big fan of column view as well.  At first I was bummed because it meant that I wouldn't get to look at the gorgeous icons of macOSX in their full size, but when I realized how much more productive I was with it, I was sold.

The right/left concept just works for me...like going forward and backwards in a directory.  It's like reading a book...natural progression going from left to right.  At least that's how I see it...


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## Inline_guy (Jan 19, 2003)

I think a better question is if you like (and use) the shelf?  For the longest time I just left it as the Apple default, but now I am all about customizing it.  I don't think I would like (or use) column mode if it were not for the shelf.  

I have enclosed a pic of my self.


Matthew


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## fryke (Jan 20, 2003)

What are you talking about? Do you mean the button bar?

It's kinda sad, because I almost thought Apple had brought back the OpenStep/NeXT-Step Shelf to OS X without informing me, but they have not, I guess...


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## Decado (Jan 20, 2003)

Column-view is really the easiest way to navigate, i think. I have two columnview-windows  (one lower and one upper, obviously). Agree with previous post about the buttonbar/shelf (sorry if "shelf" refers to some long lost function, but thats the name i have come to know it by). And since we all like to show of our way of life, i include a picture of my button-bar.


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## edX (Jan 20, 2003)

toolbar. it's called the toolbar.


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## TommyWillB (Jan 20, 2003)

Besides showing you my toolbar, I've attached 3 screen grabs (one altered in Photoshop) to help me articulate my ideas about column view: 

1-bad.pdf: This is the default view showing my home directory. My question to you is... what path am I in? There is no way to "see" that because the "Users" folder is at the bottom of the column an unviewable.

2-better.pdf: To see the "Users" folder, I need to scroll the center columen. It would be ideal if Apple show us this by default without my needing to scroll. That way I'd be able to quickly see my path.

3-ideal.pdf: Even better than #2 would be to restore the use of the "shelf" (a.k.a. toolbar) to the way it was in Rhapsody/Next. What it did in column view was give you icons on the shelf showing your FULL path. Clicking on any of the folders navigated you back "up" the tree. 

(#3 is my quick attempt at visualizing this. I'm sure racerX could post us a real Rhaposody/Next screen grab to illustrate this better.)


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## TommyWillB (Jan 20, 2003)

Here is 2-better.pdf...


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## TommyWillB (Jan 20, 2003)

Here is 3-ideal.pdf...


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## twister (Jan 20, 2003)

Column view rocks. I know, a long time ago, when i first heard about 10. i was really worried.  I didn't like the looks of it.  Now i love it.  

Twister


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## RacerX (Jan 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by habilis _
> *... Clearly Apple isn't known for the abundance of options it gives to its users but couldn't they have included a "classic view" along with columns?
> 
> ... And finally, Microsoft has had the columns view for the last 10 years along with the Classic OS9 style. Why are we stepping back in time? And why is Apple acting more and more like Microsoft, and Microsoft acting more and more like Apple? *



Maybe I'm missing something here. What is _"classic view"_? I've been using the Mac OS for more than 15 years, but I'm not quite sure what your talking about. In the "Classic" Mac OS you had three options: Icons, Buttons and List. In Mac OS X you have three options: Columns, Icons and List. Does this mean you want the "Buttons" view back?

And as has been known by most and talked about at length many times, the "columns" view is *not* like Microsoft's Windows Explorer. It is *not* a copy of Microsoft's Windows Explorer. In fact, seeing as "columns" view originated at NeXT back in 1987 and NeXT is now part of Apple, Apple is not copying anything from anyone. They have the full right to use this view without having anyone trying to say they are copying from some other company... least of all Microsoft.

Columns have been a constant in every version of the NeXT OS (NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP), Rhapsody and every version of Mac OS X (including all the developer previews, even the ones before Aqua). Other than the two column view in open/save dialogs, no one is forcing you to use columns any more than you were force to use the _classic_ "Buttons" view you seem to be missing. Both the "Icons" and "List" views still remain (actually, they were there in both the NeXT OS and Rhapsody also).

As for a third party coming up with "Buttons" view, I don't think there has really been enough of a demand for it.


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## edX (Jan 20, 2003)

well, i know i'm talking about the open and save dialogue boxes when i say i lke column view. i wouldn't use it for my HD windows for several reasons, just one being that i am more visually oriented. but like you pointed out RacerX, there are options to change for the HD view.


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## RacerX (Jan 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by TommyWillB _
> *(#3 is my quick attempt at visualizing this. I'm sure racerX could post us a real Rhaposody/Next screen grab to illustrate this better.) *



It'll take me a while for the NeXT shot, I don't have any NeXT systems up and running right now. 

Here is a few views from Rhapsody (it used an uncustomizable toolbar like Mac OS X PB had to some degree, I usually had that hidden):


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## RacerX (Jan 20, 2003)

And here is a few views from Mac OS X DP2:


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## habilis (Jan 20, 2003)

huh. well I must have been absent on those days. I'm probably using the wrong terminology.

allow me to use this chart to illustrate;


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## TommyWillB (Jan 20, 2003)

Mention RacerX... and he instantly appears. 

He must be like on of those "white lighters" on Charmed!


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## RacerX (Jan 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by TommyWillB _
> *Mention RacerX... and he instantly appears.
> 
> He must be like on of those "white lighters" on Charmed!
> ...



My ears were burning... actually I was in the neighborhood and just thought I would stop in.


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## RacerX (Jan 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by habilis _
> *allow me to use this chart to illustrate;
> 
> 
> ...



But in your "classic" view you have a preview window. If you had the default two column view, the second column actually becomes just like that preview, doesn't it? Besides, the new dialog remembers the last few folders you went to, so you don't even need to navigate to them if you didn't want to. When doing work on a number of different images that need to go in a number of different places, this feature has saved me a ton of time... specially when the folders are no where near each other (like on different volumes), and navigating between them would require a number of steps.


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## habilis (Jan 22, 2003)

No doubt the feature that remembers the last few folders you saved in is a greatly welcomed addition, but, well, maybe I'm just getting old or something because the layout is still confusing to me and sometimes it makes my eyes hurt to see any more then 2 columns open at once.

I just realized I'm a crotchety old man

Seriously though, I must say I'm astounded at the poll results, but at the same time happy about it because maybe I just need to give it more time before I like it.


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## chabig (Jan 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by habilis _
> *but couldn't they have included a "classic view" along with columns?*



Just hide the toolbar and you'll have "classic" view back. Double click on a folder and it will open in a new folder. Each window will remember its own view setting and open the same way each time. You might have some that open in column view, but once you change those back to icon view, they'll stay that way.

Chris


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## maconmac (Jan 28, 2003)

I love column view. Have always preferred the keyboard to the mouse wherever possible, and column view brings cascading menu functionality to the keyboard. How do I make it the DEFAULT?
but... managing graphic designers shows me that people who rely more on the interface to get along with software (right brainers?) prefer to click slowly away because they don't get lost or make as many mistakes (which wastes time). I think the column view provides loads of information about what you might be able to do next, but as is obvious in this discussion, if it doesn't help, don't use it.

...and why are apple and microsoft acting more like each other...because on some interface issues there is no point in being different if usability is sacrificed (eg content stays in same window when moving up/down a directory tree in list view)


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## hulkaros (Jan 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by maconmac _
> *I love column view. Have always preferred the keyboard to the mouse wherever possible, and column view brings cascading menu functionality to the keyboard. How do I make it the DEFAULT?
> but... managing graphic designers shows me that people who rely more on the interface to get along with software (right brainers?) prefer to click slowly away because they don't get lost or make as many mistakes (which wastes time). I think the column view provides loads of information about what you might be able to do next, but as is obvious in this discussion, if it doesn't help, don't use it.
> 
> ...and why are apple and microsoft acting more like each other...because on some interface issues there is no point in being different if usability is sacrificed (eg content stays in same window when moving up/down a directory tree in list view) *



...going into the Finder menu (next to the apple menu), select preferences, check/enable Open New Windows In Column View and almost done...

After, open all Finder windows that you use and change them into the Column View!

Done!


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## Ricky (Jan 29, 2003)

Can't live without column view.    Sometimes I wish the G4's at school had OS X...  The list view gets monotonous.


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## Arden (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by edX _
> *well, i know i'm talking about the open and save dialogue boxes when i say i lke column view. i wouldn't use it for my HD windows for several reasons, just one being that i am more visually oriented. but like you pointed out RacerX, there are options to change for the HD view. *



That's exactly how I feel about column view.  I think it sucks for normal navigation (can't see 2 subdirectories of the same folder open at the same time with only 1 window open) but in Open and Save dialogs you don't need that.  If you like column view, use it; if you don't, stop complaining!


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## masmit (Feb 23, 2003)

Hate it in the open/save dialogs. Don't use it in the other cases since apple have allowed us options. I wish they'd give us the option for open/save. In fact, I bet they will eventually, they always cave in to their users in the end, even though it usually takes a long time...


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## jeb1138 (Feb 23, 2003)

Just thought I'd mention that DefaultFolderX makes dialog boxes' pop-up box act "classic" if you want and also adds a helpful little bar on the right to get you places quickly.  The bar also lets you rename and delete files/folders while in dialog boxes.  Something I really wish Apple would copy Windows on.


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## masmit (Feb 24, 2003)

Thanks, I'll check it out.


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## MDLarson (Mar 8, 2003)

I don't like that I can't "type" my way through column view.  Whenever I save something, I'm trying to type the file name in, then I want to tab to the column view, the type my way to a folder, hit "Command-Down", and keep going.

Obviously I'm used to OS 9.  Is it possible to do use column view only with the keyboard?


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## Decado (Mar 8, 2003)

Use the keyboard arrows. much easier than in 9, when it comes to looking through folders.


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## chabig (Mar 8, 2003)

Yes, use the arrow keys to move left and right between columns. The up and down arrow keys move up and down within a column, or you can go straight to items in a column by typing the first few letters of their name.


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## toast (Mar 8, 2003)

I have used Mac OS 7.5.3, 8.1 and 9.2.2 for 8 years, and Mac OSX 10.1 and 10.2 for almost one year.

Column is the OSX element that has multiplied my productivity (as far as filesearch, filebrowsing, file editing, moving etc.) by two, if not three.

I have lost hours with Classic windows. Column view is what I always dreamed of, even though it still has some problems (column size can't be locked, you can't dimension a window by saying you want it 2, 3 or 4 columns-wide, etc.).

I voted YES.


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## chevy (Mar 9, 2003)

I prefer another type of columns (don't get me wrong, i like the columns... but there is a better way): first column should the the path, second columns the current folder content and the third column the icon or/and thumbnail.

This makes possible in one click to go back any number of levels, and keeps clarity in the window.


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## Arden (Mar 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chevy _
> *I prefer another type of columns (don't get me wrong, i like the columns... but there is a better way): first column should the the path, second columns the current folder content and the third column the icon or/and thumbnail.
> 
> This makes possible in one click to go back any number of levels, and keeps clarity in the window. *


Excellent!  I love it!

Post the suggestion in the post in my signature, and we'll add it to the list.


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## habilis (Mar 13, 2003)

update 03.13.2003 

I'm starting to adapt to the new column view. It was originally really bugging me to no end - as you can tell by my first post - but in the open & save dialog boxes if you drag the box so it shows at least 3 columns and more files up and down, it can come in quite handy at times. 

However, that being said, I'm still faster with the classic view at work. This will take all the adaptation skills I have.

...my god am I actually agreeing with toast??? what's this world comming to...


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## Arden (Mar 13, 2003)

I saw a pig waxing his wings the other day...


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## cabbage (Mar 13, 2003)

Column View is awesome!

When I have to go back to OS 9 I can't even use their views.  I have to use Browser X, Coela or Greg's Browser so I can have the column views in OS 9.  Another thing I hated about 9 was how many windows I had to have open.  I can just bounce back and forth thru the tree with column view in just one window.

I rarely use icon view but list view is helpful when sorting by date or when I want to see the file size.

I'd remove the view icon from the toolbar.  Just use Apple+1, Apple+2, Apple+3 to switch between the views.


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## mr. k (Mar 13, 2003)

column view is tight !  When I started with OSX I was real timid about it, but after about a year of using it I set global default to column view, and I love it along with ?-shift-(a and h) its real good.  btw, anyone know other keyboard shortcuts for folders? like root, music, movies anything really.  I just saw ?-shift-u launch camino and ?-shift-s opens bluetooth file exchange and ?-shift-j opens javabrowser... I should make a list


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## twister (Mar 13, 2003)

apple + d = desktop

Ohh and i just realized you could expand the save box for more columns.  I'm so excited now!


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## Arden (Mar 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by twister _
> *Ohh and i just realized you could expand the save box for more columns.  I'm so excited now! *


Usually you can... some programs don't let you expand their dialog boxes, which can be annoying, but most do.  4 columns usually suffices for me... although I hate having to resize them for every new column; but I have to do that in 9 too, so there's nothing really to complain about.


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