# 10.3 doesn't come with Classic?



## Ripcord (Oct 8, 2003)

Sorry if this was posted elsewhere, but I notice that Apple has a link off of the main OS X page (http://www.apple.com/macosx/upgrade/pdf/MacOS_9.2_Upgrade_Form_v3.pdf) that tells me that users of 10.3 "qualify for purchase/upgrade" of 9.2.

Am I misreading this?  Or is it telling me that OS 9 does not come with Panther?

If that's true, does that mean that Classic will not be pre-loaded on new machines?  This "upgrade" seems to only apply to retail purchases of Panther, so I'm thinking that either 1) New machines will be loaded with OS 9, or 2) You'll need to spend EXTRA money (i.e. "full price") for OS 9, or 3) Apple will not sell you OS 9 for new machines without purchase of Panther, i.e. they're REALLY strongly discouraging it).

Anything but thought #1 will be yet another blow to my efforts to get Macs into my company, since the only Exchange client (that actually works) is a Classic app.


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## Stridder44 (Oct 8, 2003)

Sometimes you need to let an old thing die. OS 9 is dead. It's been dead. I am sorry. Does that not make it great? At the time, it was awsome. But now we have OS X! And not to mention we're on the third major version of OS X. I have OS 9 installed just in case I ever needed it...but never have. And we can't be too suprised anyway. I mean it's been years now that they've been saying OS 9 is gonna go away forever. People thought that It would be gone with 10.2 (didn't they?). In any case, let it die....


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## UNIX X11 (Oct 8, 2003)

no.. 4th major version of OS X...
100th POST!!!!3121@!xgrweyeritjoaWET-]`13


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## edX (Oct 8, 2003)

os 10.2 didn't come with os 9. at the retail level they have been 2 seperate purchases all along. there is nothing shocking about it not coming with 10.3.


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## MikeXpop (Oct 8, 2003)

edX, I dunno about the in-the-box version, but when my mother got jagwire free with the education thing, we recieved the jaguar upgrade disks, and 9.2 disks. I don't know if they were upgrade or install or what (set them aside somewhere), but they came with our jaguar.


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## fryke (Oct 8, 2003)

OS 9.1 was included with 10.0, OS 9.2 with 10.1. I don't know about Jaguar as I got this with my computer and I didn't buy the box... But yep: OS 9 is dead, anyway. But where's the problem? Any Mac you've bought so far came with Classic or even OS 9, right? So you've got it already. No problem at all. There's no 'new' version of OS 9, anyway...


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## RacerX (Oct 8, 2003)

Mac OS X v10.0 did come with a Mac OS 9 install CD. Mac OS X v10.1 also came with a Mac OS 9 install CD, Mac OS X v10.1 upgrade came with a Mac OS 9.2 upgrade CD. Mac OS X v10.2 did not come with a Mac OS 9 CD of any type.

As for the education package for 10.2, I don't recall seeing a 9 CD with that when I installed it for a teacher last November (she already had it installed).

*Q.* Why is Apple even bringing the issue up now?

*A.* Enough systems are out there that didn't come with a Mac OS 9 install CD (usually it was part of the restore CDs/DVD) that Apple realized that people who are going to start over from scratch (reformatting there systems) with a fresh 10.3 install are going to need another way of getting Mac OS 9 for using _Classic_.


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## voice- (Oct 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by UNIX X11 _
> *no.. 4th major version of OS X... *


I disagree. 3rd.
10.0 was horrible, I refuse to see it as a "major version", it wasn't useable for daily tasks simply cause it wasn't fast enough. IMO, 10.1 was the first major version of OS X, the one that made me stop using OS 9.


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## ElDiabloConCaca (Oct 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by voice- _
> *I disagree. 3rd.
> 10.0 was horrible, I refuse to see it as a "major version", it wasn't useable for daily tasks simply cause it wasn't fast enough. IMO, 10.1 was the first major version of OS X, the one that made me stop using OS 9. *



Huh?  OS X 10.0 was the MOST major release of OS X in my opinion -- it was our first taste of the new UNIX system and it was revolutionary compared to OS 9.  It completely unique and new, which qualifies a big, gaudy, loud "major!" in my book.  It was, undoubtedly, a major release.

10.1 sped things up considerably and fixed a lot of problems.  It was the first OS X considered to be usable on a daily basis, which I did.  Remember driving 4 hours to grab that 10.1 update CD, or waiting patiently by the mailbox for FedEx to arrive?  And then installing it and going, "Whoa, now THAT'S better!"  That's major number 2.

10.2 was everything OS X was supposed to be, finally!  Speed, stability, good looks, applications, compatibility, better printing, etc... major 3.

And now 10.3 -- this is major major.  Without a doubt. 

That's four majors.  Like it or not.  10.0, whether you liked it, hated it, used it, scrapped it, it doesn't matter.  It was a major OS X release.  It was a complete and new departure from anything we'd ever seen and opened our eyes to the future of OS X and UNIX on our Macs.

I realize we're going to disagree here in this thread, but I don't know how someone can call the first release of OS X NOT major.  There wasn't an OS to compare it to, short of OS 9, and speed isn't the only thing that makes an OS revolutionary.  Major major major.  Period.


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## The Memory Hole (Oct 9, 2003)

I would think that 10.3 would include Classic. I say this because a lot of installers still depend upon Classic... including one of the best selling Mac games (and one included with the .Mac renewal) "The Sims". It would seem foolish of Apple to entice people to renew their .Mac accounts with a game that they would soon be unable to install.

Of course, if you are talking about actually booting into OS 9, then I believe those days are long gone.

I hope Classic still works at least...


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## naodx (Oct 9, 2003)

Classic still works, and for machines that can boot into OS 9, things are fine. They just don't give you an OS 9 install cd, which is the same thing that happened last year with 10.2.
If you do an archive and install, or make a backup of your OS 9 install somewhere else, then re-install it after installing 10.3 everything will be fine.
I myself keep what little stuff I have left for OS 9 on a separate partition, and plan to do a fresh install of 10.3 the minute it arrives at my house......time to check the count down clock again


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## DeltaMac (Oct 9, 2003)

"If you do an archive and install, or make a backup of your OS 9 install somewhere else, then re-install it after installing 10.3 everything will be fine.   "

that's OK, if you have a system that will  boot into 9,  but you can't do a normal install of OS 9 if you can't boot from the installer CD!  
OS 9 is pretty simple, if you have a working OS 9 system folder somewhere, you can just do a drag copy of that System Folder to your drive, go to Classic Pref pane, choose the System Folder for Classic, and click Start, and OS X will copy the update files that Classic needs. (hopefully)


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## RacerX (Oct 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by The Nobody _
> *I would think that 10.3 would include Classic.*





It does, it just doesn't include Mac OS 9 to make Classic run.


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## UNIX X11 (Oct 9, 2003)

So, if i get panther, can I take my 10.2 powerbook disk and install classic like that? or should i use my mac os 9 cd? yeh... i cant boot into it... but... wait thats a problem...


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## The Memory Hole (Oct 9, 2003)

Ahh...
I see now.
Thanks RacerX and naodx.


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## Captain Code (Oct 9, 2003)

Mail.app and iCal are supposed to have Exchange support, but I have no clue how well it works.

You might get lucky and that will be enough to ditch those PCs at your work


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## Ripcord (Oct 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Captain Code _
> *Mail.app and iCal are supposed to have Exchange support, but I have no clue how well it works.
> 
> You might get lucky and that will be enough to ditch those PCs at your work *



iCal 1.5.1 has no Exchange support, unless I'm totally missing something.  That would be really cool, though.  I love the iCal interface!

Mail.app *in theory* has Exchange support, but it's very painful, at best.  Not a real solution.

Address book also supports Exchange *in theory*, of course it requires my Mail admins to turn on LDAP, which they won't do "for security reasons", and again Address book's Exchange support is painful, at best.

The boss isn't going to be happy if I tell him we have to shell out yet ANOTHER $150 or so just to be able to get to our mail/calendars/notes/etc.

<bitch session>And since Virtual PC won't run on the G5s that I've been pushing, Windows printer support is broken in Panther GM, Citrix support is half-hearted (no seamless windows?  Even the LINUX client has seamless windows...), no browser is compatible with some of our websites (again, more our fault than Apple and its app vendors, but still stinks that they have no solution, considering what a widespread problem this is), CIFS client is still shaky, no native GTK for OS X, etc...It's going to be very painful migrating...</bitch session>


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## ApeintheShell (Oct 9, 2003)

Maybe the migration to Panther will make developer's update the way their applications install themselves. 

Soon people will know that Mac OS X 10.3 will have given birth to the 21st century.


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## Zardoz (Oct 11, 2003)

I haven't used OS 9.x for about hmmmm, 7 months now. There's really no need for it to be there at all now. Move along people, nothing to see here.


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## Trip (Oct 11, 2003)

Money makes the world go round. And even though it sucks, Apple is a part of that world.

Oh yea: I havn't touched OS 9 in at least a year.


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## UNIX X11 (Oct 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by UNIX X11 _
> *So, if i get panther, can I take my 10.2 powerbook disk and install classic like that? or should i use my mac os 9 cd? yeh... i cant boot into it... but... wait thats a problem... *


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## Arden (Oct 12, 2003)

If you can boot into OS 9, do so from the CD.


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## UNIX X11 (Oct 12, 2003)

but what if you CANT?


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## Arden (Oct 12, 2003)

LOL, I misread your post.

Copy the boot system of OS 9 from the installer to your hard drive and launch Classic.


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## UNIX X11 (Oct 12, 2003)

but but i dont want to.
Cant i use my PB cd and install classic like that?


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## Arden (Oct 12, 2003)

Well, if you already have Classic installed, then sure.  But if not, you need some way to run OS 9 to use the OS 9 installer.  It's a bit of a conundrum...


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## RacerX (Oct 12, 2003)

I know I've posted this before, but we'll try it again here:

*IMPORTANT NOTE:* For all reading this, at your earliest convenience make a disk image of your Mac OS 9 system folder and burn it to a CD. Future versions of Mac OS X may come with the _Classic_ software, but *none* are going to come with the _Classic_ operating system needed to run it. Apple assumes that your system came with it in some form or another. They have left the responsibility of keeping track of it to you. Having a backup on a CD for future reinstallation (copying it back to your hard drive) is going to save you a ton of head aches.


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## Arden (Oct 12, 2003)

Maybe you should put that in your signature.  Then everyone reading your posts will see it.


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## RacerX (Oct 12, 2003)

Thing is, it really isn't a new problem. If you format your drive without the Mac OS 9 drivers (like my systems) or your using newer equipment which can't boot into Mac OS 9, then you are going to need a way to get 9 on your system for _Classic_.

Quite some time ago (pre-10.2) I made an image of a generic installation of Mac OS 9.2.2 and saved the image to a CD. That image has been used for restoring _Classic_ to a number of systems (including my PowerBook and a friend's B&W G3).

If people took the time when they had Mac OS 9's system folder sitting on their system to make this type of a back up, then restoring it to your system for _Classic_ only requires drag-n-drop.

 

Oh, and I hate signatures.


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## DeltaMac (Oct 12, 2003)

well, this thread is certainly running in circles 
You can't do a 'normal' OS 9 install, if your system can't boot to OS 9, But you can place a System Folder on the drive, by copying from a OS 9 CD, then start Classic to allow OS X to place the needed items in that OS 9 System folder. That's all that's really needed to get Classic working.


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## Captain Code (Oct 12, 2003)

You can boot Classic from the CD while in OS X and install it like that if you have to, but you still must have an OS 9 CD.


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## UNIX X11 (Oct 12, 2003)

OK... i still dont see my question answered...
I got Panther (no not really... pretend i do). I wiped my hard drive, and I need Classic. I have no sign of OS 9 on this drive. NOTHING. Now, can I take my System DVD, which has Classic on it, and use the installer on that CD for Classic?


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## watson (Oct 12, 2003)

If you with "System DVD" mean the Panther install DVD, then no.
It _does_ contain the Classic application, but not the Classic OS (os9).

So you still need to install os9 from the os9 media.
I don't know if you can insert the os9 cd, start Classic and install it fom there, though.

Or, keep the folder where you have os9 installed no, wipe the rest and install Panther.
Voila, you can use Classic within Panther.

Hope this helps,
Henrik


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## watson (Oct 12, 2003)

Eh, "keep the folder where you have os9 install no..." should of course be "... installed on".
Sometimes my fingers are faster than my brain, or is it the brain who is slower than my fingers...? ;-)


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## DeltaMac (Oct 12, 2003)

No harm in trying that, if it works, you're done!
I get hung up on semantics with Classic/OS 9.
You can't boot into Classic, but you can start Classic, which is merely a mode, an environment, part of OS X. You're not using OS 9, only the parts that are necessary for OS X. If you reboot into the OS 9 partition/drive/whatever, so your system boots from OS 9, then that is not Classic, as your system is booted with OS 9 components, not OS X at all. Is this too confusing?  All you need to get Classic working is a System Folder with OS 9 major components in it, You can copy it in, you can install OS 9 in (your system restore DVD will have the necessary items on it, how hard can it be?)


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## UNIX X11 (Oct 12, 2003)

GRR
YOU DONT GET IT
the PowerBook System DVD contains MAC OS X.2, and SOFTWARE RESTORE, which has an OPTION to install MAC OS 9.2 on your HARD DRIVE. Can I use that DVD to INSTALL MAC OS 9.2 as CLASSIC for MAC OS X.3?!?!?!!??!!?!!?!!
Is that SIMPLE enough!!?!!?!!!!!?!?!?


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## pds (Oct 12, 2003)

I feel your pain Unix, sometimes it seems beating around the bush has become a fine art in this thread.

It seems to me that if you have the option to install 9.2, you should, even if it installs 10.2.x. Then you could use 9 to throw away the other things Restore put on the wiped disk before installing Panther. 

I don't have the PowerBook DVD, so I can't be sure. I hope someone will help you with details from their own experience.


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## RacerX (Oct 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by UNIX X11 _
> *GRR
> YOU DONT GET IT
> the PowerBook System DVD contains MAC OS X.2, and SOFTWARE RESTORE, which has an OPTION to install MAC OS 9.2 on your HARD DRIVE. Can I use that DVD to INSTALL MAC OS 9.2 as CLASSIC for MAC OS X.3?!?!?!!??!!?!!?!!
> Is that SIMPLE enough!!?!!?!!!!!?!?!? *



Your right, it is that simple. If you can restore 9 from the DVD then you can restore 9 from the DVD.

Why are you asking the question? 

If you can't restore Mac OS 9's system folder without restoring 10.2 at the same time, then make a copy of your current Mac OS 9 system folder before wiping your drive and move it back after you install 10.3.

This is not rocket science (  or Unix for that matter), what part of your question wasn't answered yet?  

Want to save us all some time? Do a complete restore from the DVD after wiping  your system (as the bundled apps that came with your PowerBook aren't going to come with 10.3), do an _archive and install_ from 10.3 and then delete the _previous system_ folder left on the root level of your drive.

When you are done, you'll have a clean install of 10.3, Mac OS 9.2.2, your bundled apps, and we won't be answering questions like _where did some of my apps go that came with my PowerBook?_ after you finish.

*Is that SIMPLE enough!!?!!?!!!!!?!?!?*


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## UNIX X11 (Oct 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RacerX _
> *Your right, it is that simple. If you can restore 9 from the DVD then you can restore 9 from the DVD.
> 
> Why are you asking the question?
> ...


 ::love::


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