# Tiger is GO!!!!!!!



## ziess (Apr 12, 2005)

It's here peeps!!

29th shipping date!

http://www.apple.com/macosx/


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## Gig' (Apr 12, 2005)

Yup confirmed on swiss applestore 
but cost USD 28 more


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## ziess (Apr 12, 2005)

It's only £58 education pricing for me!


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## Gig' (Apr 12, 2005)

I was in Scotland last week should have got in touch with you Ziess


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## ziess (Apr 12, 2005)

Cool. Where'd you go?


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## Gig' (Apr 12, 2005)

was in north berwick east lothian visiting my kiddos as well as gullane/dirleton and of course edinburgh


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## ziess (Apr 12, 2005)

Nice bit of the world that. Maybe a bit cold last week but certainly nothing on Switzerland!


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## Gig' (Apr 12, 2005)

Yup, only from midweek till sunday early am when i Left. As a matter of fact the wind was the main problem bringing temp down to freezing levels, whereas here, so far and eventhough it is windy too it a little milder ;-)


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## Lt Major Burns (Apr 12, 2005)

just preordered. £58. does it actually drop on my doorstep on 29th? or will it be shipped on the 29th?


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## Zammy-Sam (Apr 12, 2005)

89 for german and educational version. Very tempting, but I won't buy it now. Only a few useful features and going through the troubles of reinstalling the current system.. nahhh. But still, nice price!


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## Gig' (Apr 12, 2005)

based on single licence education price not listed yet...

is the swiss market is a cash cow with a VAT @ 7.6% 
vs european higher VAT and weak USD .... ?!

the CHF price (189.00) translate roughly into EUR 122 USD 157 GBP 83


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## padishahemperor (Apr 12, 2005)

oh, nice...

(he says choking on drool)

"Down Mac mini, down!! You can't have it yet I'm too poor!"

I think in May I will be picking a copy up... I'm going to be in London from 4th -  6th May, do you think they'll have a copy?


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## Gig' (Apr 12, 2005)

Lt Major Burns said:
			
		

> just preordered. £58. does it actually drop on my doorstep on 29th? or will it be shipped on the 29th?



According to  :

http://store.apple.com/Apple/WebObj...7zj1e1BhngphW/0.0.11.1.0.6.21.1.0.1.0.0.0.1.0

Ready to ship:
by April 29th

let us know when you get it


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## Viro (Apr 12, 2005)

I've just preordered. Die Debian die....


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## ora (Apr 12, 2005)

Preordered (in switzerland) -88 CHF / £41!!

Excellent as just got paid and so can afford it.


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## Gig' (Apr 12, 2005)

ora said:
			
		

> Preordered (in switzerland) -88 CHF / £41!!
> 
> Excellent as just got paid and so can afford it.



that's education price rite ?


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## ora (Apr 12, 2005)

Nope, special price through Neptune store, to qualify you need to satisfy conditions at http://store.apple.com/Catalog/chfr/CustomStoreImages/neptun_project_store.gif , I work in the international community around Geneva.

Also, given the exciting news, how come the chat room is almost empty? Just me and bob there, and he's away.


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## MDLarson (Apr 12, 2005)

I voted "Right away" but only because I was waiting for Tiger to buy my Mac mini from ColorWare.  I'm a gonna have it painted "Techno" blue and install it in my WRX!!!


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## fryke (Apr 12, 2005)

(That Mac mini will _melt_ in the sun. You can blow cool air to it from below all you want, won't change much...)


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## Convert (Apr 12, 2005)

Hey Ziess, how old do you have to be for the education discount? I could really do with it.


Thanks!


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## Tetano (Apr 12, 2005)

(I've seen that a new car, really don't remember which, make some cool air from the air conditioner to flow in the dash locker... maybe it could be a better solution...)


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## ziess (Apr 12, 2005)

Convert,
So say Apple man... 
" aged 18 or over
 a student with a valid student card or a teacher, lecturer, tutor or other supervisor of students at a UK education establishment"
But, while I fulfill both of these critera, when I got my iPod through my girlfriend's account, they never checked me. 
I'm sure you could find someone to do it for you if you're under 18 but i doubt the'll check, no-one I know has been checked in the past.


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## Convert (Apr 12, 2005)

Thanks for the help Ziess, much appreciated.

Sadly, I am only 17.


Thanks, I'll have to find someone.


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## fryke (Apr 12, 2005)

(tetano: you mean a new car would be a better solution?)


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## Gig' (Apr 12, 2005)

Ora

thanks vm for the tip although one of the conditions being to be a student or teacher It thus make it a form of educational discount for which I saddly can't apply.


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## Cat (Apr 12, 2005)

Only  99,- for the Family Pack with Edu discount. Gotta love the strong Euro!


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## Convert (Apr 12, 2005)

What part of Europe do you live in?


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## kanecorp (Apr 12, 2005)

Already ordered it.
Can't wait


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## appleman.design (Apr 12, 2005)

I want my student discount too...lol


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## Cat (Apr 12, 2005)

> What part of Europe do you live in?


The Netherlands, why?


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## Convert (Apr 12, 2005)

Just wondering,


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## Carlo (Apr 12, 2005)

I just pre-ordered it.. It is $199AUD. (No education discount for me.. denied.)


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## Zammy-Sam (Apr 13, 2005)

Panther is still good enough for me. I will be on tiger when I get myself a new mac. Thinking of mac mini for my wife and a powerbook g5 for myself. 
Anyway, for my tibook and my ibook panther is doing just fine.


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## Tetano (Apr 13, 2005)

fryke said:
			
		

> (tetano: you mean a new car would be a better solution?)



well, the impreza is one of my secret dreams, so.... if I had that car i can offer an exchange...


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## rbuenger (Apr 14, 2005)

No Tiger here. And probably never any Apple software again. I haven't invested the last month in turning my (original) 10.3.6 system in a good, fast and very stable system just to destroy all this work for a gamer OS like Tiger. 

About 8 years ago Apple was the best choice I could find and I was happy for years there. But about a year ago it seems to me that Apple decided to just work for the gamers. All the last updates I just read stupid things like 'again 1% more OpenGL speed' 'Game xy better supported' and 'Better gui for z'. Hey, if I wan't a gamer OS I just get a WinXP and even save $50 compared to Tiger not to mention the $1000 I'll save getting a better gaming hardware.

In my opinion Apple should learn more about Unix. They should learn why they are still there (no, it wasn't the gamer that helped you survive the last 10 years). And I think it's time that someno sue Apple for their integration of (for example) the webkit.Why isn't Microsoft not allowed to built their IE into the system but Apple is allowed to build the webkit in the system. Hey, the webkit isn't only Safari (like IE under Win). I hate this stupid webkit but you can't trash it as this will brake 20+ app's that even never should need this. 

Just tell me why iDVD, iPhoto, BBEdit, Proteus or nearly ever RSS reader out there needs these webkit? I mean just creating a socket and fetch a RSS feed is written in C/C++ in 10 minutes and it's a lot faster than using the webkit. 

I know I can't change anything there and Apple will go one as planned but without me. I'm just sitting here with my own kernel and try to delete all this stuff Apple integrated. And the next system here probably would be Aurox or maybe MorphOS.


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## Viro (Apr 14, 2005)

I don't get your rant about Tiger or Webkit. I find it quite hard to see how you come to the conclusion that Tiger is a gamer's OS. Most of the features that are touted have very little to games. Spotlight, Dashboard, etc. all have nothing to do with games, but making the normal user's experience better. The GUI and OpenGL speed increases don't just benefit games. There are loads of scientific visualization tools that use OpenGL that are sure to benefit from a more optimized set of drivers. Other media apps will probably benefit too.

I honestly fail to see you complaints about webkit. The fact that many 3rd party programs use Webkit even if _you_ think it's unnecessary shows just how necessary it is. RSS programs need webkit as it provides all sorts of functions to deal with HTML/XML and HTTP. Why shouldn't they use something that is guaranteed to be on the OS? Reduces development times, eases deployment, etc. 

That's like complaining that you can't delete libc on a Unix system because the apps will break. What is your gripe with webkit?


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## adambyte (Apr 14, 2005)

Zammy-Sam said:
			
		

> ...Thinking of mac mini for my wife and a powerbook g5 for myself.



Yeah, I was thinking about getting one of those, too, but I was extremely put off by the fact that they don't exist yet.


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## Lt Major Burns (Apr 14, 2005)

has anyone wanting a pBook G5 _seen_ the size of the heatsinks in a powermac g5? they are 4"x4"x3".  it kinda gets less portable after that - no real reason for this thread-bending post other than i had the case open on mine and i was trying to "see" the actual chips through the ***G5*** big shouty cover, then i realised that the whole thing is a massive (the biggest i've ever seen) heat sink.... it must need some serious cooling....


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## powermac (Apr 14, 2005)

Apple gave me a great Birthday Present. Pre-Ordered. YAY


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## rbuenger (Apr 14, 2005)

Viro said:
			
		

> That's like complaining that you can't delete libc on a Unix system because the apps will break. What is your gripe with webkit?


No, that's a big difference as libc is open source and I can replace it, change the source code or whatever I want. I can't just disable or edit some webkit functions. And as there are some security issues with the webkit all apps that uses it are vulnerable and I can't change this without breaking allthese apps. And waiting until Apple closes these holes is like hoping that Microsoft gets Windows fixed. 

Just take the (very easy to fix) mRouter vulnerability. This one is a really huge hole with exploits available for download. And I KNOW that this already got exploited in some schools to modify/look at files as 'root'. If Apple would provide the sources everyone can fix this but so the only thing you can do is remove the suid flag or remove mRouter completly. And to make it even better I 've got a working trojan on my testsystem that exploit this (for over 2 month unfixed) and automatlically send itself to every mail address it can find in any users addressbook.

So If anyone tell you there aren't any viruses/trojans for OS X they're just lying. They are just not (known) out in the wild as they're created to test and fix these things locally. 

I can understand that Tiger has priority for Apple developers but they should know that OS X can just survive if it's a stable and secure OS because this is the only real reason why many 'pros' use it. If it's unsecure I can easily switch to Windows.

I don't wan't to have (in my eyes needless) features like dashboard (I can use Konfab if I wish to have this) or Spotlight. I know what I have written and I can use locate and grep (not the old versions Apple supply) to search. The only reason why I use OS X is the availability of good apps in combination with stability and safety. And because I can clearly see that Apple don't care about the last one (at least not more than MS does) I stick with my in various ways enhanced darwin kernel/os.

My hope is that Apple make the OS more open and modular so that everyone can choose what he want to have. If I can easily remove (completely) Spotlight, Dashboard, Webkit and all the apps like Safari, Mail, iChat, iPhoto.. I maybe install 10.5 if it's more open source than 10.3 is.


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## Viro (Apr 14, 2005)

rbuenger said:
			
		

> No, that's a big difference as libc is open source and I can replace it, change the source code or whatever I want. I can't just disable or edit some webkit functions. And as there are some security issues with the webkit all apps that uses it are vulnerable and I can't change this without breaking allthese apps. And waiting until Apple closes these holes is like hoping that Microsoft gets Windows fixed.



Yes I agree, libc is a very rudimentary library, that only provides ANSI C routines. A more serious example would be trying to replace KHTML on KDE with ... something else like Gecko, or getting Firefox to use KHTML instead of Gecko. It's not easy, and you'll break loads of stuff. What specific problems do you have with WebKit that make you want to disable it so much?



			
				rbuenger said:
			
		

> Just take the (very easy to fix) mRouter vulnerability. This one is a really huge hole with exploits available for download. And I KNOW that this already got exploited in some schools to modify/look at files as 'root'. If Apple would provide the sources everyone can fix this but so the only thing you can do is remove the suid flag or remove mRouter completly. And to make it even better I 've got a working trojan on my testsystem that exploit this (for over 2 month unfixed) and automatlically send itself to every mail address it can find in any users addressbook.



It's a local exploit. At best, you can write a trojan for it, and trick the user into running it. That's very different from a virus. No OS is safe from trojans. It's trivial to write an app that tricks the user into typing in the administrator password. Not so trivial to write an app that replicates it self _without_ any user intervention (key trait of a virus).

A fix has been provided if like you said. So what's the big deal? As it is, it looks like you're throwing the baby out with the bath water. Trojans can be made for any OS. I think you may be over reacting, but what do I know...

EDIT: This has really gone off topic though...


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## fryke (Apr 14, 2005)

Well, to each his own. There's linux for your Mac. Also, you can actually _choose_ not to use WebKit. Use Firefox. And Eudora for E-Mail. And an RSS-reader that _doesn't_ use WebKit (so no NNW2). Problem solved. Dashboard? Just disable it. It's easy. You could probably even safely delete it if you find the right files, but why the heck would you actually _want_ to?

Don't get me wrong: I agree that Apple sometimes seems a bit slow at fixing security holes, even if they're local ones only. (Remember that once you have a hole through which you can login, you're basically a local user. That's often forgotten. I.e. once you can ssh into the box, you're a user there.)

But this hasn't got anything to do with Tiger in my opinion. At least not directly. Apple has to appeal to more than just security geeks. As long as Mac OS X is more secure than Windows and linux (and FAR easier for the average user to control and get fixes, since John Doe probably doesn't want to recompile a kernel or even "just" some library or mail client with newer patches - and on linux the alternative is waiting for RedHat to release a patch through SU, just like with Apple...), I think I feel safer "over here".
At first glance, things like Dashboard might look like "gamers' stuff" to you, but it's actually a productivity tool also - just do what YOU like with it (in memory of Konfabulator...).
And Spotlight: While we hear from all around that people want to introduce search like this to other platforms, Apple is the one who _started_ this and was in the right position to do it right. And they did. (Although it _really_ pisses me off that I can't look for parts of files' _NAMES_ easily anymore...)


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## rbuenger (Apr 14, 2005)

Viro said:
			
		

> . It's trivial to write an app that tricks the user into typing in the administrator password. Not so trivial to write an app that replicates it self _without_ any user intervention


The problem here is that thu user don't need to give any password. It gains root just by using mRouter. The script just need to be started. And 9 out of 10 test persons (that got a dummy executable from me) opened the app (they believed it's a folder as yeu just need to change the icon). Of cause this is trivial but 90% of the testusers opened it. And than it just get root and hide in the background. Any normal user just can't find or even delete it. And the fact that it easily got root isn't good. Who knows if not 100 apps out there already include such an 'addition' Most users would never notice this.

And yes, I've already deleted all these apps and the webkit etc. You just can't use most apps out there aften this. And I'm not using Firefox or Eudora for security reason too. Ok, FF is a lot better than most others but I love iCab 3 and Mailsmith.

And I've just seen some benchmarks Tiger<>Panther. And Tiger lost most points important for me (disk, threads, cpu). And that's compared to a full blown 'normal' Panther not the optimized xnu kernel without all the needless extensions. So there is absolutly no reason to get Tiger for me. And I would never again pay more than $100 for any OS.



			
				fryke said:
			
		

> (Although it _really_ pisses me off that I can't look for parts of files' _NAMES_ easily anymore...)


Why can't you do that? Just searching for apart of the filename? Just use locate (or find if you haven't updated the db). For example: locate PartIKnow | grep html$


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## Viro (Apr 14, 2005)

I think he's more interested in completely removing WebKit, which AFAIK is not possible.


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## fryke (Apr 14, 2005)

Why I can't do that? Well, I can. But I'm not interested in working in Terminal.app when I'm trying to use Finder to organise stuff. Basically, they've just removed finding for filenames (or parts of 'em) from Finder's find facility. Not good. (Sure, you can enter a word that would probably be _inside_ the document, too and then refine the search by part of its name, but that's MUCH too much hassle. They simply shouldn't have removed the 'easy' looking for filenames but have it as an alternative to searching for content.)


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## fryke (Apr 14, 2005)

btw.: don't get me wrong, it _still_ finds the items which only have the word in the filename/foldername, but if i'm really just looking for a HTML file i know its name (for example: "special") of, i'm not interested in finding any PDFs who happen to have the word 'special' in their text somewhere. And the file/folder names don't seem to be top-hits. The name doesn't count more than the content in Spotlight. :/


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## Viro (Apr 14, 2005)

I thought Tiger gained points for most areas, CPU, threads, memory, UI, OpenGL. The only exception is the disk, since that's quite obviously hardware limited (unless Tiger makes the hard drive spin faster, which is quite unlikely ).

Well, that's true for the G4 anyway. I'm not interested in the rest as I don't use them.


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## Pengu (Apr 14, 2005)

ok. you are complaining about other users opening a test trojan that you wrote. you are complaining about apple bundling a lot of features for no extra cost. you are complaining about "we added 1% performance" and yet you feel the need to hack/re-compile a "optimized xnu kernel".. if you are a real security geek, you'll know the only way to REALLY secure your system is unplug the network/modem cable and use it as a standalone machine only. 

sounds to me like you're complaining because apple isn't taking the Linux approach, and letting any tom dick or harry write code for them, which results in the wonderfully confusing UI experience that is ANY and ALL linux GUIs.

if you are using the terminal to find files, why not use Lynx to browse with and use OSX in CLI only, by logging in as ">console" from the login screen. No more webkit. no more iphoto. no more ANYTHING that is specific to apple (except the computer itself or course) if you don't like OS X, don't use it. run BSD. Linux. or the bastard child Windows (which you seem to embrace a little too much for someone complaining about security holes and ability to remove software.. if you "remove" half the stuff in Windows, it just deletes the shortcuts in the Start menu)


anywho. that's my bit. personally, i'll be getting Tiger, iWork and iLife (all at EDU discount thank you very much ) at the end of the month : )


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