# Shall we invite Mac haters?



## MDLarson (Mar 6, 2002)

I know we all enjoy a nice little debate what say you to posting a big invitation for folks from this cursed website?  They are among the worst of the anti-Mac crowd, as far as I can tell.  RacerX will have a ball with this, maybe, and I know I would love to sit back and watch

So vote Yes or No.  If there are more Yes votes, I (or another volunteer?) will post a polite invitation to debate Mac vs. PC.

Actually, I don't know if the keepers of MacOSX.com are friendly to this type of thing, but that's what I'd like to find out too.


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## Jadey (Mar 6, 2002)

Invitations to a Mac hating crowd who hate Macs for no particular reason is just an invitation to flame the board, not debate. 

ManicDVLN's flames rarely had any legitimate points and understanding about the OS, he just hated Macs for the sake of hating them. Talking till we're blue in the face to and him and others like him will not often change their minds. It is a waste of our time (which is why I never gave him a serious response).

I think this board's main function is to encourage the Mac community and help Mac people with problems. Filling the forums up with flame-fests will discourage people looking for help to come here, IMO.


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## Dak RIT (Mar 6, 2002)

That needs a third choice.  Invite legitimate counter arguments.  I don't mind an intelligent debate at all, as you see to a certain extent on sites like Slashdot (it's a mix, but overall you generally get intelligent discussion, if sometimes one sided), and OS Opinion... some flaming or lack of intelligent responses but mostly reasonable.

I do *NOT* want to see something like the boards over at Geek.com.  By the 3rd post a flame war breaks out every single time no matter what the topic, and the flaming usually ends up so far off topic it's disgusting.

Cheers,
Dak, choosing to abstain from voting


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## Dak RIT (Mar 6, 2002)

Just following up on my own post 

I think it's important that Mac users (and others) not stay closed minded and complacent about their particular platform.  And to do so it is important to stay informed and knowledgeable.  I love my Mac, but it's not perfect, and I'm not going to pretend it is.

It's important to understand ways in which our computing experience CAN be improved, so Apple doesn't become complacent either.

On top of that, for too long the Mac community has more or less existed as a separate entity from the rest of the computer world... that needs to come to an end.  The Linux and BSD communities are merging ever closer with the Mac community and this is A Very Good Thing(tm).  We need to embrace this new friendship, and an important way to do so is to understand each other (the antics of our favorite new Mac convert David Coursey flaming the Linux community is not a good thing, and I'm glad to see most of the responses to his review reflected this).

It's time for us to push the mold of our community and expand outward... we may be small, but we're quite committed.  I rarely even see anyone claim Linux users are more devout   Let's just do it in an intelligent manor, and not as a religious crusade as has been the case for so long.

Cheers,
Dak
Mac Enthusiast, NOT Mac Faithful.  My only faith is in death.


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## RacerX (Mar 6, 2002)

I enjoy a good PC vs Mac argument as much, if not more than the next guy, but I didn't like some of _ManicDVLN_'s personal attacks against other members.

We have a new member named _macssuck_ who has yet to post, but I don't hold out high hopes for an intellectual discussion.


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## edX (Mar 6, 2002)

dealing with the ones foolish enough to stumble in here is one thing, inviting them in is another. War is not a pretty thing. peace is a blessing. count your blessings for the peace we have now. just because we grumble a little among ourselves doesn't mean we need some outside target to bring us together as a community. 

let us stay a community and not a war zone.


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## MDLarson (Mar 6, 2002)

Hmm  Good thoughts.  I think I'm finally getting a hold of this place.  I came from the MacAddict forums, and there I think this kind of a thing would be more "fun" and applauded.  But I can totally see why we'd like to see this place more peace-like than flame-warish.

On the other hand, I _did_ post this with the intention of inviting and encouraging lively debate that would hopefully be without too much bloodshed.  I sometimes a dose of PC people and their complaints would do us good, and that was my motivation for such a thread.

Maybe ihateapple.com is the wrong place to go, for there are where the flamers are bred and nurtured.  How 'bout a nicer place?  Geek.com sounds interesting, I'd like to see for myself how they act.

I dunno.  I'm open to ideas.

By the way, I can't change the poll.  It says moderators can, so if any moderators stop by (how could they not?), can you add a third option?  Something like "invite nice people only".


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## Jadey (Mar 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Dak RIT _
> *Just following up on my own post
> 
> I think it's important that Mac users (and others) not stay closed minded and complacent about their particular platform.  And to do so it is important to stay informed and knowledgeable.  I love my Mac, but it's not perfect, and I'm not going to pretend it is.\*



Excellent point Dak RIT. In all of my real debates with Windows users, never have I simply said that Windows sucks and Mac is great just 'cause. Normally I tell them that I do in fact own a PC which runs Windows and linux. I've used all three systems for years, and prefer Mac. If they're not mad at me by this point, (why do some people get angry if you just mention you use a Mac?) and ask what I prefer about Macs, then I go into details. 

BTW, for any aspiring evangelists, I've found the virtually virus-free argument goes VERY far with Windows people.


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## Frederic (Mar 7, 2002)

A war is not something I want to read about. I like intelligent confrontation, but I think this kind of debate is too passionate to produce any good. 

I used to have an Atari ST (it still works, BTW... ahh, GEM...), and I remember the war with Amiga folks... Boring, at least.


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## voice- (Mar 7, 2002)

I laugh at Ihateapple.com. Check out their humor pics. Pics made on Macs made by Macers tend to look realistic.
http://63.229.177.25/humor/


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## Click (Mar 7, 2002)

The Istapler is nice


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## edX (Mar 7, 2002)

I guess i am also wondering why you want to 'invite' them here. if you want to take them on so bad, then why not go where they are? But then that would make you the troll wouldn't it?  there are plenty of sites where both sides wage endless wars. i hope this site never becomes one.

but really, think about who would come if an invitation was issued. Would it be those who are genuinely interested in learning? i doubt it. would it be those who know enough about their own computer and macs to have a real discussion? again, i doubt it. what about people who would jump for a chance to stop arguing with other pc owners and go after the real 'bad guys' that use macs? I think so.

in short, this is not macaddict. everyone here is aware of other forums and how they are run, what the attitudes are, etc.  Most of us, or at least many, have settled here because it is NOT like those other forums. please don't suddenly show up here and ask us to be like that. rather go there and be like them if that is what you want. 

If you want to invite others here, that is great. but how about inviting mac developers, people who need help understanding osx and people who are involved in using macs every day? we can always make room for more people like these. 

people who are secure in their own beliefs do not need to proselytize to others. We are not a church and we do not need to convert nonbelievers by bringing them here. with 15 people voting so far, i hope you don't see that as enough of a majority right now to carry out your plan. The site has hundreds of active members.


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## bighairydog (Mar 7, 2002)

Perhaps we should organise a group trip to this forum and shout things like "mAC o$X RuLlLEzzz U!!!!!!" in a ManicDVLN style...

or maybe not

Bernie     )


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## AdmiralAK (Mar 7, 2002)

Racer get your troll hunting gear ready


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## serpicolugnut (Mar 7, 2002)

Is it open season on Trolls again?
 

Really, I don't need or want any more ManicDVLN types lurking around here. I just add them to my ignore list anyway, so what's the point?


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## Jadey (Mar 7, 2002)

It's odd that most of the replies here have been of the opinion that inviting them would be a negative thing, but the poll reflects right now that 63% of people support inviting them. What's the viewpoint from that side?


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## twyg (Mar 7, 2002)

The minute it gets into stupid flaming you'll see scores of closed threads no matter how much "Damnit, it's my free right to speech" and "It's all good, we're just DEBATING" comes across. 

Remember on these boards there are rules. Admin isn't asking us not to express our free speech, and in fact asks us to speak freely, however in the invite it had better be crystal clear that these are professional boards. There is no swearing, name-calling, or any of that horse-doodie. (Which happens anyway, but we usually make up, these people I guarantee won't)

Also, I'm dead-certain that Admin won't appreciate 50 PM's asking him to ban BobThePCA$$ because he is derogatory, and spewing forth hate for the simple reason that he's got the 1st Amendment behind him. If I remember correctly ManicDVLN called all Mac users "fudge-packers." 

Now, imagine 30 ManicDVLN's here...

So... I would encourage more diversity, but you're going to invite the worst over here. So just be prepared if you decide to do this things may go terribly awry. 

I personally would like to see different view points, but I say let them come on their own cognizance and not via a board littered with pimply 13 year olds with gas pedal courage who's base line is "well, Macs suck, and so do you!".

Fin.


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## naysayer (Mar 7, 2002)

No


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## themacko (Mar 7, 2002)

I agree with Dark RIT, Jadey, Ed, etc.  These boards are here to help out fellow Mac users and new Mac users.  It's not a very good welcome mat well new people come by and all they see are a bunch of Windows vs. Mac flames-threads and heated arguments that, in my opinion, are completely pointless.  Seriously, what's the point?  We aren't going to convert anyone, nor are they.  When everything is said and done, we will not have gained anything but have only lost time where we could have been doing something _productive_.

I'm also afraid that bringing Windows users in here will be like introducing some South American insect into Hawaii.  Nature didn't intend them to mix and once it happens, there's no way to get rid of them.  Let's not dilute the quality of these boards by bringing in people who don't have any respect for us and our 'cause.'


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## julguribye (Mar 7, 2002)

I don't want to waste unnecessary keyboard wear just because of some stupid pc-trolls that never has touched a mac before and that just hates mac because they don't understand it.

No.


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## Ralph J. (Mar 7, 2002)

just to add my 2¢...

i come to these message boards for INFORMATION... not to duke it out with a bunch of PC trolls.


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## tagliatelle (Mar 7, 2002)

When you set a little panel at your window "Free Mac" this problem will be resolved immediate!


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## apb3 (Mar 7, 2002)

Ummm, yeah. What Herve said. I think.

You've all pretty much covered anything I'd say so I'll keep it short.

No.


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## MDLarson (Mar 7, 2002)

Update:
I got an email from Twyg H and he will be modifying the poll shortly to include something like "Yes, but only if they play well with others".  That way (hopefully) all of us will have something to vote on.

Regardless of how the poll ends up, I want the long-timers here to know that I am listening to them, and even in light of this thread, I respect your "forum-wisdom".

That said, the poll currently shows 16 to 10, in favor of an invitation.  I wouldn't mind a little diversity, even if that means some flame-baggage along with that.  Even if 15 trolls come by, nobody's forcing you to type anything.  Nobody's forcing you to read anything.  It is totally your choice what you do.  And it's people like you that make this place great.

We have the ignore setting, and for those who get a kick out of debate like RacerX, this will be a fun thing.

Also, I'm not afraid of new Mac users reading "MACZZ SUCK BECAUSE THEY JUST DO", because the argument has no basis.  Being polite and posting fact will be a great encouragement for any newbies reading.  Intelligent PC users will add to the debate, and if a user can gain insight from it, all the better I say.

So my vote remains YES!


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## putamare (Mar 7, 2002)

You can already find plenty of lively discussion here @ arstechnica.

One of the things that makes this forum exceptional is its unusually high signal to noise ratio. Almost as many answers can be found on osx.macnn.com, but who has the time for a search on that slug (when it is up).


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## TommyWillB (Mar 7, 2002)

When you get a little older you start to learn that religious arguments are boring and there are no good reasons to invite them...

Instead you learn that being around the kind of people you like instead of those you don't is more rewarding.

You may call this "closed minded", but I prefer saving my energy to better understand good things.


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## putamare (Mar 7, 2002)

You can already find plenty of lively discussion here @ arstechnica.

One of the things that makes this forum exceptional is its unusually high signal to noise ratio. Almost as many answers can be found on osx.macnn.com, but who has the time for a search on that slug (when it is up).


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## amo (Mar 8, 2002)

I would hate to see this site get needlessly invaded by a bunch of Mac-hating Windows users.  If I want to argue the merits of a Mac as compaired to a Windows machine, I can that almost anywhere.  If I need help with my Mac or want to discuss hot Apple topics, I can come here.  Please don't ruin that for us.


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## edX (Mar 8, 2002)

testy and others - please bring yourselves to overlook matt's opinionated wording of the question and answers and just vote on a yes/no basis. I voted no and we all know i don't run from confrontation when it finds me.

i might also point out that few of the people who have posted yes are going to actually participate in matt's proposed conflict. not a one has come forward to say "you're all a bunch of whiners, make the invitation because....". they vote and lurk. we who "do not like confrontation" have all confronted you just fine matt. and with more legitimate reasons than you have even begun to offer for why you would even consider doing such a thing.


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## twyg (Mar 8, 2002)

Poll is changed, as you can see. 

Currently it's 17 yes, 18 no.

I can reset the poll if so desired, just let me know.


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## anrkngl (Mar 8, 2002)

I've never seen such a buncha morons as I have seen on this ihateapple.com website. On both sides of the argument you see absolutists that argue from ignorance.


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## Klink (Mar 9, 2002)

I voted NO for the eloquent reasons given by TommyWillB.

My interpretation of your true intentions MDLarson...

"...will have a ball with this, maybe, and I know I would love to sit back and watch"

You sound like quite the weasely instigator here MDLarson. If you want to invite such flame you are expected to participate in them, not just light the fire and stand back to watch the building burn.

"I did post this with the intention of inviting and encouraging lively debate that would hopefully be without too much bloodshed. I sometimes a dose of PC people and their complaints would do us good, and that was my motivation for such a thread."

Such as these subjects are hardly debates. You know this I'm sure! The mention of bloodshed reveals you've witnessed a few yourself and contradicts your intentions as you plead them.

"Regardless of how the poll ends up, I want the long-timers here to know that I am listening to them, and even in light of this thread, I respect your "forum-wisdom".

I found this statement rather insulting and again contradicting to your initial post of said thread. I think you have missed the point entirely even when your nose is placed right up to the dung. Take a good whiff sir and clear that clouded head of yours.


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## tagliatelle (Mar 9, 2002)

Sun ceo hates Bill Gates and activation and the abuse of multiple inheritence and polimorphism.


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## FrgMstr (Mar 9, 2002)

hmm whats this, youve decided its boring around here without some good debates, well i thought i used to contribute to some decent discussions but that was until people around here started to delete my perfectly acceptible threads for no reason, now i mearly browse this forum once a week and never post except this once since you were on the topic of flame wars.

Believe me its all well and good inviting conversation from others who have differing views but none of them who have a brain anyway will stick around when the admins around here start deleting your threads for no reason.


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## tagliatelle (Mar 9, 2002)

You can back your threads and post them again.


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## FrgMstr (Mar 9, 2002)

i shouldnt have to, no one else does, its just aggrevation thats not needed, im sure you would agree.


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## tagliatelle (Mar 9, 2002)

I don't think that! If you have something important then you need to make a backup. If I think about something and I can make a copy from my thoughts. (I don't know but I thought you were dutch)


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## ablack6596 (Mar 9, 2002)

No!! Have you seen Anything Apple in the MacAddict boards lately.  The place is getting better but it has been hit my aa nuclear bomb every post ends up with a flame war and there are so many posts being locked and deleted everyday I come her for information and the MacAddict boards because they are fun when people aren't yelling at each other.


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## twyg (Mar 9, 2002)

> i thought i used to contribute to some decent discussions but that was until people around here started to delete my perfectly acceptible threads for no reason



I never delete a post. 

Move a post? Yes. Censor a post for profanity. Yes. 

But regardless of what's in a post, save blatant facism, nazi propoganda, and arguments that all purple people eatings are justified I will never delete a post because the person said something I don't agree with. 

If that were the case you wouldn't see Ed here very much anymore. 
(Totally kidding Ed!) 
*twyg throws an arm around Ed*

So get over it FrgMstr. I'm not out to delete your posts. On other areas who knows, but Admin made a point to never delete a post. It gives favortism when as a moderator one should be neutral. Which on these boards I do my best to do. (When it comes to moving, and checking for bad stuff)


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## apb3 (Mar 9, 2002)

ditto.

moved many a post. deleted ONE and not because I didn't agree with it. In fact, I agreed with it, several individuals, however, were insulted by the way it was expressed... and, there were three other threads expressing the same opinion in a mature, non-insulting manner.


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## MDLarson (Mar 12, 2002)

Well, currently the votes are:
19
18
2
4

For my original intent (a little message for the PC crowd), it appears as if the vote could be construed as 19 in favor, and 24 not.

Like many have noted here, it seems as if the majority of the naysayers here are much more active than the yes-people, at least in explaining why they voted the way they did.

I set the poll to last a week, which means it gets done tomorrow.  I think this thread will live its strange life, and then die its needed death.  I also think I changed my opinion a little from start to end, which is probably good.

Well, have a great day!


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