# [FROM 2003:]  What's the deal with USB 2.0?



## lonny (Apr 7, 2003)

This is something that nobody seems to care about... but I see lots of new peripherals (cd burners, mp3 players...) going USB 2.0 only.

We all know that Firewire (and FW 800) is great, but we still need USB2 built in.

What's the state of the art in this technology on Macs?


----------



## cellfish (Apr 7, 2003)

While I hate the idea of USB and while I think Firewire is completely superior as a format to USB 2.0, I do agree with you that Macs should be using it anyway. I expect it to be making its way to the Mac platform by June. If not by then, then Apple seriously is going to have a bit of explaining to do, and will drive some of us back to the Windows world.

Andre


----------



## ksv (Apr 7, 2003)

If macs came with USB2 built in, more companies would drop the FireWire products, and it'd probably die a slow death. Remember, FireWire is Apple's own technology, and they have nothing to win on licensing USB2. FireWire is also faster, even though the USB2 theoretical peak is 80 Mbps above FireWire. FireWire 800, which is theoretically twice as fast as normal FireWire, will also of course be way faster than any USB standard Intel ever comes up with


----------



## gwynarion (Apr 7, 2003)

From everything I have heard Apple has very little interest in USB 2.0.  From their perspective USB is what has replaced ADB and serial ports as the connection standard fro devices like keyboards, mice and printers--ie. slow things.  FireWire is the technology they include for faster items like hard drives and the like.  This could be reveresed, of course, if the USB 2.0 market seems to be growing in unforseen ways, but we'll just have to wait and see.  For myself, I never buy anything with a USB connection if there is a version with FireWire available instead, especially if it is something I want to see talking to my computer with any sort of speed.


----------



## lonny (Apr 7, 2003)

My thought is that Apple doesn't want USB to be faster than FW, so it might just wait to embrace the 2.0 standard until FW800 is standard on every mac.
If USB2 enjoys the same success of its predecessor, we just need it to be on our macs... more like so for switchers!


----------



## tk4two1 (Apr 7, 2003)

As with everything else on a PC if it is cheaper its used more.  The main difference between Firewire 400 and USB2 is that FW can be used as a stand alone technology allowing audio/video and even more to communicate with each other without a negotiator in between. One main example of this is my digital camcorder, I can plug the FW cable into it and plug the other end into my brother-in-law's camcorder and transfer my data to his.  This simply cannot be done with USB or USB2.  Look at the Playstaion 2.  It has FW and USB ports and which port is used for linking two systems together?  FireWire of course.  Another thing is the speed, Yes, Iknow USB2 is rated at 480Mbps but that is Max throughput and not the average speed.  FireWire's Max of 400Mbps is a lot closer to its average of (Correct me if I'm wrong) somewhere around 390 Mbps. Where does USB2 stand for average? Alot lower than 390 Mbps.  I think once apple gets FW800 installed as a standard in the new machines and gets a good market of new 3rd party devices, then they should put USB2 in to the Mac.  But hey better hurry and work on FW1200 or 1600 or whatever the next step is for USB3 will probably be right on its tail.


----------



## plastic (Apr 7, 2003)

Kinda sad, if you remember that iMac was the first truely all USB machine that helped launch USB. Back then when iMac was launched no one in the PC world would give a damn about USB, and now it is like a standard on all PCs.

I see some PCs with FW implemented but it is still in its infancy stage. 

Well, let's wait for the PC world to catch up with Macs. FW is still big, especially in the specialised field with Yamaha licensing it for MLan. 

Hang in there, FW is here to stay.


----------



## binaryDigit (Apr 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by tk4two1 _
> *As with everything else on a PC if it is cheaper its used more.  The main difference between Firewire 400 and USB2 is that FW can be used as a stand alone technology allowing audio/video and even more to communicate with each other without a negotiator in between.
> 
> ...
> *



Excellent point.  Unfortunately this is sounding a lot like IDE vs SCSI.  SCSI was the faster more powerful interface.  One of the things that made it more powerful was the fact that each device had to have a fair level of smarts.  IDE on the other hand put much more of the smarts into the controller allowing for dumber but cheaper devices.  Eventually through the relentless progress of hardware, the performance gap between the two have shrunk mightily, esp for the single disk config where the bus speeds outstrip the devices ability to get data onto the bus (and thus only really making it usuable in higher performance multi-device setups, e.g. RAID).

Lets hope that this does not follow that model and that FW can still prevail despite Intel's attempt to supplant it with USB.


----------



## Stridder44 (Apr 7, 2003)

Well, theres only one good reason to have USB (that I can think of at the moment...and Im sure theres many others) and thats for keyboards/mice...cuz a FireWire800 Keyboard/mouse sounds just plain loco (but it would be fun nontheless)   .


----------



## pyroboy (Apr 7, 2003)

There are several factors you should consider with USB2. 

One, Intel is supplying motherboards to computer companies in addition to chips. If Intel suggests that people can have USB on a board or no board at all, I am sure people will be happy to consider USB2. 

Intel can also put lots of pressure on computer manufacturers to suppport USB2, much like they put pressure on companies in other sorts of ways. For instance, denying co-op ad dollars, making chipsets only work with USB2, there is all sorts of ways to foist a standard. 

Then there is the perspective of 3rd party hardware companies. USB1 was do slow. USB2 is faster. So why not revise all of the equipment to support USB2. Some people will go out and buy a USB2 scanner because it's faster, even if it is only marginably faster. 

There are lots of people also like my cousin. He's taking courses in Digital Video. He has a dual g4 800. He decided to buy a USB2 drive because it was newer and faster than the old FireWire he has. It never occured to him he would need to buy a new hardware card to support USB2, since it will not plug into the current USB port and work at the advertised speed. I finally convinced him to stick with the slower, older Firewire standard since that's what his PC has, his Macs have and his digital cameras. 

Now I plan to convince him that his dual G4 800 is too slow because it doesn't have Firewire 800, so he needs to upgrade. I'll give him a few hundred for his old system...


----------



## mr. k (Apr 7, 2003)

I like your plan pyro... hook me up?

(i wish)


----------



## binaryDigit (Apr 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pyroboy _
> *...
> One, Intel is supplying motherboards to computer companies in addition to chips. If Intel suggests that people can have USB on a board or no board at all, I am sure people will be happy to consider USB2.
> 
> ...



Actually its even simpler for Intel as they will only ship chipsets/motherboards with USB2 so oems will get it anyway (i.e. there simply won't be an option to NOT get it).  Not too bad if your an oem (or even customer) since Intel wants to try to establish USB2 so they'll offer it at the same price point as USB1.


----------



## Pengu (Apr 8, 2003)

Uh. You guys keep saying how Intel is really pushing USB2, and how FireWire is better than USB1/2. I agree that Firewire (at whatever speeds) is a superior interface for most high-speed applications. But. That doesnt mean USB, and USB 2 don't have uses. Yes, USB needs a "smart" host of some sort, because it basically works on a client-server system, whereas Firewire is "peer-peer". But, for things like Printers, Scanners, Microphones, mobile sound cards, etc, USB is perfectly acceptable. Also, remember when you make claims about USB being crap, and that apple don't need USB 2, that Apple is a member of USB-IF, the USB implementers forum. They are the people who develop USB. Sure, we don't have it yet. Doesn't mean its bad, or that we shouldn't use/want it. I don't have a Firewire 3200 fibre-optic IP network. Doesn't mean it wouldn't be cool, and that i dont want it.


----------



## hulkaros (Apr 8, 2003)

...important to many people and also that you people are discussing here about USB2 buit-in solutions from Apple BUT:

You can buy anytime out there USB2 only or USB2/FireWire PCI cards for those with PowerMacs

OR

You can buy anytime out there FireWire to USB2 adaptors or PC cards for those with xBooks or xMacs...

So, actually if you need THAT much USB2 go ahead and buy it... 

PLUS, the majority of USB2 devices (which has FireWire I/O too) work as well as, if not better, with FireWire  One thing that I learned all this time with Macs is that most products which claim to be compatible with Wintels only, work more than just fine with Macs too  And also, FireWire has MANY products out there for Macs but sometime you have to search for them a bit more... FireWire Scanners, printers, HDs, CD-RWs, DVDs, DVD-Rs, the works!!! 

FireWire rules!


----------



## fryke (Apr 8, 2003)

Still, Apple is, by leaving out USB2 on Macs, preventing us from using some hardware that would otherwise be completely compatible with Macs. Sure, they still run on USB 1.1, but that's not really an option for a faster device. For example: While USB 1.1 may be fast enough for my laser printer, I'd certainly love the data to flow faster between the computer and the printer. The printer _has_ USB 2, the iBook doesn't. :/


----------



## lonny (Apr 8, 2003)

Fryke, that's exactly my point.
There are a lot of inexpensive peripherals out there sporting a USB2 interface, such as burners and the like.

It would be really stupid of Apple not to incluse such interface on their systems. Any rumor on the matter?

And what are the solutions available at the moment for us? (add on cards...)


----------



## fryke (Apr 8, 2003)

A completely new motherboard sporting USB 2 had been rumoured for the PowerMacs that appeared in January already, but obviously the rumours had either been false or at least inaccurate.

Like others pointed out, Apple probably won't include USB 2 until FireWire 800 takes off. Until now, not many hardware products have been released using FW800. Apple surely wants to release USB 2 Macs only when the entire line is on FW800 and there would also be FW800 third party hardware.


----------



## hulkaros (Apr 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by lonny _
> *And what are the solutions available at the moment for us? (add on cards...) *



...Firewire to USB2 adaptors
...Firewire to USB2 PCMCIA (or PC cards)
...Firewire to USB2 hubs
...Firewire to USB2 cards
...Firewire to USB2

with www.google.com ! Great things to find in order to buy online 

Still, if this is not what you prefer head over even to a Wintel store and ask them for all the above... While they will say that most of these are for Wintels only, in the end if they will actually look deeper they will see that most devices work with Macs too! Even the ones that say: Designed for Windows XP (insert any version here) most of the time work with Macs too!     

PS.Insist on Firewire to USB2 and NOT to USB or USB1


----------



## Dime5150 (Apr 8, 2003)

FireWire is great but I don't have any peripherals for it because they are all so expensive! iPod, if i get one, will be my first one.


----------



## hulkaros (Apr 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Dime5150 _
> *FireWire is great but I don't have any peripherals for it because they are all so expensive! iPod, if i get one, will be my first one. *



Instead of buying a FireWire product made for Mac you can do this:
-Locate a FireWire empty box for Wintels (95% they work with Macs with NO problems)
-Locate the DVD, CD, DVD-R, CD-R, etc. that you prefer from the Wintel side of things
-Fix the device inside the FireWire box...
-Locate the patch for the DVD (-R) which will enable you to record and play DVDs without any problems and patch your OS X and its apps with it
-Voila! A Wintel cheap FireWire peripheral which works with Macs too!  

If you need other FireWire devices, say scanners, for your Mac and they seem expensive to you, I bet that 90% of those devices are for something more than a simple home or even SOHO usage... And still if you have to have such devices then go ahead and buy them because they will give something back to you 

USB2 although a great improvement for the Wintel platform, in some instances, the lower price comes because you get a lower quality product or not that advanced if you prefer... Still, the majority of good quality USB2 devices have FireWire too!  

Anyways, I think that Apple may include USB2 sometime later on because right now they have bigger obstacles to overcome! Say, like a new processor, maybe


----------



## lonny (Apr 12, 2003)

Thinksecret reports of new iPods to sport USB2!!!
They claim "for windoze compatibility"... but I doubt Apple will release a feature just for the windoze world!


----------



## lonny (Apr 16, 2003)

FYI:

Accelerate Your Mac! notes that some Power Mac's contain USB 2.0 controller chips, leading to speculation that the next revision to Apple's Pro desktop line may feature the high-speed connection alongside FireWire. 

 "I have discovered the NEC PD720101 chipset while checking out the new PowerMac MDD 1.25 Dual motherboard. This chipset is a USB 2.0 chipset where the earlier PowerMac models only had the wirings for USB 2.0 while the new models (new PowerMacs) now have the USB 2.0 chipset (already on the motherboard) thus if we can only get the driver it seems that we will be able to use it (USB 2.0) right away," writes an Accelerate Your Mac! contributer.


----------



## SirMacsAlot (May 26, 2004)

Well this was one reason I waited on buying me eMac because I had a few devices that had USB 2.0 that supported both Mac and Windows because I knew I would go Mac sooner so didn't want to waste money.  Now they offer their higher end PowerMacs with USB 2.0 but I didn't need that extra power but I needed that extra money.  So I got my eMac about a little over one week ago from Compusa.  Its their current model at the apple store right now and it says it has two firewire 400 ports and three USB 2.0 ports and two USB 1.1 ports and those ports are indeed USB 2.0 because my portable hard drive and DVD Burner just fly and I've used these two devices using USB 1.1 and lets just say I hated it and would remember if my new eMac ran them that slow.

Look at the specs section under "PORTS" and you will see it.

http://www.apple.com/emac/specs.html

So the newer eMacs now have USB 2.0 ports and they run at USB 2.0 because I have this model so its not a typo.  By the way I love this little machine.  Everything about this machine is great except one thing.  Their apple keyboard that came with it just kept on double typing everything so that forced me to go out and buy the Logitech Wireless Elite keyboard and mouse combo earlier than I wanted but I don't regret it at all and I have contacted Apple about this problem as well but they don't know about it but besides this issue this is a very nice computer.  I would have got the superdrive model but my external firewire DVD burner had a copy of toast with it so I didn't need iDVD even though its a great problem.  I use it to create the files and use toast to burn them so its a nice trade-off.  iDVD is great for making the DVD not burning it so that is what I use it for.

Oh and by the way I'm a new member as of today so hello to you all.


----------



## Zammy-Sam (May 26, 2004)

Hey SirMacsAlot!
Welcome to the forum and thanks for refreshing an old thread


----------



## Salvo (May 26, 2004)

binaryDigit said:
			
		

> <<SNIP>> One of the things that made it more powerful was the fact that each device had to have a fair level of smarts.  IDE on the other hand put much more of the smarts into the controller allowing for dumber but cheaper devices. <<SNIP>>



Bzzt Wrong!
SCSI was faster and more powerful simply because the Single Controller could control IO on all 8 simple Devices.
IDE was more widely adapted, because it was less complex in simple applications. 

A Computer Novice could set the Jumper to Master, Slave or CableSelect and think they were a 1337 Hardware Expert.
Adding those extra Jumper settings, expecting the poor Morons to count to Eight in Binary [000, 001, 010, 011, 100 101, 110, 111], and then make sure the end Devices were Terminated Correctly was too much for thier Tiny Minds to Comprehend.

Manufacturing one SCSI Hard-drive is cheaper than manufacturing one IDE Hard-drive, but manufacturing 1million IDE harddrives and selling them all is cheaper than manufacturing 500 thousand SCSI harddrives and only selling half of them.

Back on Topic;
I personally encourage all my Windows-using Friends to either get a Firewire PCI Card or PCMCIA Card so I can make an Ad-Hoc Network, or share files from my Firewire Harddrive.

There are enough Firewire DV Cameras out there in Circulation that Firewire will still be popular; people aren't gonna replace thier $1000 DV Cam with a $1000 USB2 Firewire Cam, when they can buy a $25 Firewire400 Card.


----------



## fryke (May 26, 2004)

That's true, but the sad thing is that FireWire just didn't take off as USB-2 did (in the Windows world), and now that we have USB-2, too, Mac users are often going to automatically choose the 'cheaper' model (i.e. the USB-2 only model) instead of a FW or even Combo model.

USB-2 makes perfect sense for devices like printers, scanners, CD-R/DVD-R drives, as they're fast enough and easy and cheap to connect. FireWire always seems to take one more step in the consumer's mind - and the fact that PC users would often have to buy a FW-card before even THINKING about using a FW-device is too hard a step for many.

And the thought that USB is ubiquitous makes even ME think about compatibility. I've just bought an external harddrive (see sig) and paid more for the Combo model, because I don't want to EVER come to an office without being able to 'just connect' that harddrive. It's an important tool for me. So: I _had_ to have USB-2 on that device. Sure enough, I connect it to my PB via FW...


----------



## diablojota (May 26, 2004)

My Fujitsu-Siemens has a "firewire" port built in (the smaller looking job).  But the predominant ports are USB.


----------



## Macsith (May 26, 2004)

fryke said:
			
		

> And the thought that USB is ubiquitous makes even ME think about compatibility. I've just bought an external harddrive (see sig) and paid more for the Combo model, because I don't want to EVER come to an office without being able to 'just connect' that harddrive.



And that is it in a nut shell.  I don't want to shell out $ for a peripheral and corner myself into a standard.  For example I paid $100AUS more for a USB/USB2, Firewire400/800 external drive.  I could have saved money by purchasing a single port standard...

I know Firewire is the best standard but hey, 'VHS' beat 'BETA' and you tell me what was superior.  Price always wins.....oh and backing by companies.


----------



## ex0dus (May 26, 2004)

Apple is including USB 2 on the latest iMac's not sure about the rest of the product range though....  

http://www.apple.com/imac/specs.html


----------



## fryke (May 26, 2004)

(Keep in mind that the older answers to this thread are more than a year old...) Afaik, ALL current Apple computers have USB-2.


----------



## jobsen_ski (May 26, 2004)

Ye! all current macs support usb 2 so in they end we habe the choice - I must admit i think its taken apple too long to bring support for ipods and usb2 on MACS (currently part of 10.3.4 - I *think*) they adopted usb some time ago and I think the ipod should have been mac-usb 2 compatible right away! when 10.3.4 comes out theres going to have to be alot of changing small print etc on ipod and ipod accesories pages. most state (after the mention usb2 at all) that this is for "windose pc's only" I'm glad to see that mac so compatible most noe have firewire 400 and 800 and USB 2 (as well as usb 1.1 - if you count the keyboard ports)


----------



## DJ Dylan (May 26, 2004)

I can't use my MP3 player because of Apple's non-support of USB 2.0.


----------



## fryke (May 27, 2004)

What kind of Mac, what kind of MP3 player do you have?


----------



## SirMacsAlot (May 27, 2004)

Actually I tried my brothers Archos GMini120 music player just for fun and it worked with my emac at USB 2.0 speeds.  Doesn't even need drivers at all.  Just plug this baby in and the desktop has a new hard drive icon labeled Jukebox and just drag and drop and this player works with iTunes but I haven't tried DRMed AAC files but the player shows up within iTunes.


----------

