# 360 degree panoramas/interiors



## antonioconte (Mar 22, 2005)

I have a customer who want 360 degree interiors producing.  Can someone advise please.  The end users will mainly be PC users and some maybe Mac.  Pretty small interiors, ie, house conservatories.  Is anyone out there using any software?  I would like to use my own still digital camera as the budget is not huge.  thanks for any advise.


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## symphonix (Mar 22, 2005)

One application is PhotoStitch, which I think from memory was published by RealViz. I haven't used it myself.

http://www.realviz.com/products/st/index.php

http://www.realviz.com/products/stez/index.php


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## mdnky (Mar 23, 2005)

You didn't say how you'd be getting your images...fisheye lens, 360 lens, or multiple plain shots.  That can have a bearing on the software you use, as some is only designed for shots with speciality lenses (Panoweaver).


For stitching normal shots (multiple overlaping shots):

Cross Platform (PC/Mac):  
Realviz Stitcher 4.0 ($580) 
Realviz Stitcher Express ($119)
_I've used both...they require a bit of training, but they're pretty simple to use and produce good results.  Personally, they're WAY overpriced in my opinion._.  They used to have a Stitcher EZ version which was a perfect solution for someone who needed to do multiple stitches quickly.  Price wasn't bad either.

photoVista Panorama ($70)
_Haven't used this personally...they won't offer a trial version to test it...but from others I've heard bad things, been told to steer clear of it._

ARCSoft Panorama Maker $30
_This was my primary choice until I broke down and bought stitcher...worked alright, price was good.  Downside is it's slow...not just the stitching, but the whole program itself._


PC Only:
Panorama Factory
_Excellent program...best I've used, bar none.  Unfortunately, the developer isn't much interested in porting to Mac or Linux.  Price seems to have gone up over the past year or two...doubled, but still well worth it IMO._


Mac:

PTMac
_Works alright, but a major pain the butt to use.  Especially for multiple Panos...very time consuming._

LMStitch
_Worked good when I tried it, just was too buggy.  It's been a while since then, so it might be worth another look._

PhotoCAD
_This is a newer one that looks *VERY PROMISING*.  I'm going to test it out on some photos I have archived and see how it works._


Canon is supposed to supply a stitching program with their Digital Cameras called PhotoStitch which is rumored to work very well.


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## antonioconte (Mar 24, 2005)

wow, thanks for that info.  I am considering purchasing some equipment but I really need some advice on that part as well. To start off with it will be interiors and some rather small and some medium sized. I really need to do it on a budget though.


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## mdnky (Mar 24, 2005)

The smaller the space, the harder it is to do cheaply and get acceptable results.  Also takes a lot more practice.

If you can wing it, buying a fisheye or full 360deg lens would probably be your best bet.  Otherwise, you'll have to adjust your shooting practices with a good digital camera.

Instead of taking normal (landscape) pictures, rotate the camera 90deg to take vertical shots (portrait).  It'll require a few more pictures, but you'll get more of the area.  One downside is you'll also get more barrel distortion in the photo (like curved lines at ceiling/wall, etc.).  

Make sure you keep the camera steady and that your overlaps are consistent and the right amount (usually around 20% on the right edge when shooting clockwise).  Using a tripod isn't necessary, but it could help out a lot.

Here's a VirtualTour (if you have pop-ups blocked, the link won't work in Safari) that I did a while ago which was done with the vertical shots (interior) and horizontal shots (exterior) on a Nikon 3200.  The stitching was done with ARCsoft's PanoMaker.  You can see the distortion pretty clearly in the interior shots.  I'm not real happy with the way this one turned out, but it was the best I could do given the circumstances.  Never did finish it, as we dropped the listing...LONG STORY.

A nice solution are some of the 360deg lenses you'll find.  One I strongly caution you against is the EGG model.  I've heard nothing but complaints from REALTORS® about that particular model...very cheap construction, horrible optics (resulting in grainy, blurry photos), no customer satisfaction guarantee, etc..

I'll be moving our office over to a Nikon 8400 with a 360 lens (360 1-VR, Remote Reality, or 0-360) soon, then use PhotoWarp to extract usable images from the shots.  PhotoWarp is available for MAC (10.2+) & WIN (98+).


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## Robn Kester (Mar 24, 2005)

Are you doing cylinder or cubic VRs? While cylinders are easier (pan the camera around a central point and stitch) the cubics are much prettier I think. And Apple has some old tools on their site to do these still.

To shoot small rooms, even tho its a pain, it helps to break the wall into a grid, shoot in pieces and put them together for each complete wall.

I've even put the walls into Bryce before to render out VRs. Esp if I was adding furniture etc to the room to enhance it before making the VR.

If you are adept at photo editing, you can do some of the edits in PS or PS ELements, and their built in stitcher isnt too bad for this purpose.

Just dont sink a few hundred greenbacks into anything until you know you will use it.

Also, one good investment I found is a tripod with a panoramic head on it so that you can ensure your lens is always at the very center of the pictures.

The above mentioned items are all good to check out - I too found some of the tools to be painfully slow and/or obnoxious to use... or their stitching was so full of distortions or mis-stitched areas that I ended up having to manually fix eveyrthing myself.


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## antonioconte (Mar 25, 2005)

I'm really new to this so I'm not sure. I have also heard that you can buy cameras that take all the shots or something without having to take each shot.  I can imagine these are really expensive though :-(


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## mdnky (Mar 25, 2005)

Those are the 360deg lenses.  They basically take one shot, which looks like a donut if you view the image in a normal program.

1.) Take 1 pic with 360deg lens ( 360_source_image )
2.) Unwrap pic in PhotoWarp ( 360_unwrapped_image )
3.) Publish Final Product ( Example is in QT movie:  http://www.kaidan.com/media/Foyer.mov )

Cost is $400 to $800, depending on a lot of different factors ( that's for the lens only ).  If you're going to be doing a lot of tours (10+ a month), it'll pay for itself quickly (time saved).  They also require a high MP camera, due to how the picture is being taken.  5mp would probably be the bear minimum, 8mp would be preferred.

Total cost:  ( Camera + camera adapter(s) + lens + tripod + tripod bracket + software )  $1300 to $2000 roughly.  Add another $100 to $200 for a good quality hard case to protect everything.

----

How often do you plan on doing this, and will you be the only one or do you have to train others to do it for you?  What make/model of camera do you currently have?


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## antonioconte (Mar 25, 2005)

wow, thanks for that reply, excellent.  Its exactly what I need to do. However, that budget is too high for me. I need a solution for about 1600 max I think, and would definately need 360deg lens.  I don't have a camera suitabel I don't think, only a campact digi camera, which is completely useless for this kind of thing.  I think I'll be doing about 5 a month to start off with.  the interiors are of glass conservatories with while upvc frames, ie: http://www.everest.co.uk/conservatories/conservatories_gallery.cfm  these are huge ones, the sizes I will be working to are mostly 3m x 3m sq in size.  Will this be a problem do you think?


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## chevy (Mar 25, 2005)

Isn't it also a function of Adobe Photoshop Elements ?


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## mdnky (Mar 25, 2005)

antonioconte said:
			
		

> The interiors are of glass conservatories with while upvc frames, ie: http://www.everest.co.uk/conservatories/conservatories_gallery.cfm  these are huge ones, the sizes I will be working to are mostly 3m x 3m sq in size.  Will this be a problem do you think?


Yes...it'll be _almost_ impossible with a normal camera (lens).  Even a wide-angle or fisheye lens would be hard to work with in such tight spaces.  A 360deg lens should work fine; it would definitely give you the best results.

The bane of VTours are homes/units which have rooms (bedrooms) with measurements in the 9' to 12' range (per wall).  Even taken vertically, they're a pain in the butt.  What you're talking about shooting is close to those sizes.  Add a single window in one of the walls, and more problems arise.

With all the glass in the enclosures you linked to, one major problem is going to be exposure...especially on sunny days.  Make sure you get a camera with good manual controls...you'll need it.  A good light meter and exposure table might come in handy too.  It might be wise to take a couple of shots, each using different settings (say one on auto, a couple other using various manual settings).   

I'd recommend Nikon or Canon, but Nikon would be my preferred one:  Coolpix 5400, Coolpix 5700, Coolpix 8400, Coolpix 8700, Coolpix 8800




			
				antonioconte said:
			
		

> I need a solution for about 1600 max I think, and would definately need 360deg lens.



Nikon Coolpix 5400 = £300
360-1-VR RE Kit (lens, tripod, case & Photowarp software) = £490  
Lens adapter = £10 to £110 _(I've e-mailed Nikon and Kadian to try and get a price on it.  I'll post back when they reply.)_

_*Estimated Total:*  £800 to £900 ($1495 to $1650)_​


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## antonioconte (Mar 26, 2005)

thats a great help thank you. Yes, please let me know about that adapter.  Thanks for that!  Just wondering if it would also be worth getting the camera and 360 kit second hand? obviously only if its in great condition. As I'm not an expert in cameras, why do you suggest the coolpix 5400? is it easy to use for me?


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## antonioconte (Mar 26, 2005)

what do you think, would this work? : http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7501978367&fromMakeTrack=true


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## mdnky (Mar 26, 2005)

I definitely wouldn't buy the lens second hand...chances are the one you buy would be damaged.  The main reason I can see someone selling one is if they scratched it, which ruins it.  When you do get one, you need to treat it like your first-born child.  They're easy to scratch, but a little caution on your side will prevent that from happening.

The camera...well, that's something you should consider.  When I buy things for business work, I rarely buy something second hand.  Tax benefits aren't there as much, not to mention no warranty and the fact that you don't know what you're getting.  I'm not sure about the UK, but in the states it's generally better to buy new for business use.

Any of the 5mp series cameras (5400, 5700) and 8mp series cameras (8400, 8700) would work great for you.  I prefer the smaller size (slightly light weight too) the x400 version have over the x700 versions.  The x400 series also has a closer 'macro-mode' focus, can do more continuous mode shots, and does time lapse photos (5400 does, 5700 doesn't).  Those are things I use a lot, so they're important to me.  Either series would work fine for what you want to do.

Side-by-sides: 5400 vs. 5700, 8400 vs. 8700

I plan on replacing my Coolpix 3200 this summer with a Coolpix 8400.  I almost did it around x-mass time, but decided not to after seeing how much Santa had spent already. <G>


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## antonioconte (Mar 28, 2005)

THat's a very good point you have made thanks.

I've always had Sony Cameras, DV camcorders and compact digital cameras.  So when I found a UK reseller for the 360 one VR (http://www.red-door.co.uk/pages/productpages/360one.html) , I noticed that they mentioned various adapters and one of which was for a sony 717, I did a search  for it an d found some info on it  : http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/F717/F71A.HTM  in your opinion, what do you think?  To be honest I will only mostly use whichever camera I get for the 360 one VR.  I think this sony does have an LCD screen.  But do you think the Nikons are much better? thanks in advance. Tony.


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## mdnky (Mar 28, 2005)

I was big on Olympus until I went to buy a new one (year or so ago, was the Nikon 3200).  I've used Sony models at the fire department and through our broker's office, wasn't impressed at all.  Picture quality wasn't good, IMO.  Those were older ones, so things may have changed recently.

When I did buy the 3200, I looked at a Sony (S90 I think) for all of 10 seconds maybe.  It was similar to the Nikon 3200 (case is similar), but felt cheaper somehow and the pictures weren't as good.  We took shots of the same 'area' at the store with 6 different cameras, then printed them on a demo HP printer they had there.  The print of 3.2mp Nikon shot was clearer and had much better color than the 4mp Sony and 4mp Olympus models.

Kaidan has a kit for the 5700...at least they show that model camera on their site.  You might want to call that reseller you found and inquire about it.

Remember, the 360 lens will add a considerable amount of length [8" (200mm)] to the camera...that Sony 717 is already huge to begin with [6.31 x 4.88 x 2.63 inches (162 x 124 x 68mm); 23oz (658g)].  The Nikon 5400 [4.3 x 2.9 x 2.7 inches (108 x 73 x 69mm); 11.3oz (320g)] and the Nikon 5700 [4.3 x 3.0 x 4.0 inches (108 x 76 x 101mm); 16.9oz (479g)] are a bit smaller and lighter.


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## antonioconte (Mar 29, 2005)

Ok fair point made, I don't want it to become a huge thing I need to lug around.  I suppose I'm really trying to just get a cost effective solution. But ensure I get very good 360s. I'll be finding out over the next day or two if the client wishes me to go ahead.If so, I will need to start the ball rolling and invest int he equipment and a camera. If you don't mind, I may need your advice again. You have been very, very helpful.  thanks


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## antonioconte (Mar 29, 2005)

just had a meeting with the client and he's agreed to initially let me produce the 360's, excellent news.  I won't actually be doing that many so I will unfortunately be outlaying the full cost mostly, but thats life I suppose. 

I am worried about what Camera I will end up purchasing cause Of costs, not sure if I need to get 5m or 7m pixels???  Also, what is best for glass sun rooms of 3m x 3m do you think?

I've found a company here int he uk that do FULL SCREEN QTVR : http://www.opticalfx.co.uk/virtual_tours/fullscreen_quicktime_vr/portfolio.html   will I be able to do this quality with photowarp and the cameras you have poitned out and at that full screen size as an option for my client?  I also noticed they do ipix virtual tours as well, not sure about this but it seems an option for people who don't have quicktime at that point.

All in all this is the system I'm going for due to your advice, thank you!


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## mdnky (Mar 31, 2005)

With the 360lens, the higher the MP/quality you use, the better it'll look.  5MP would be the minimum, 8MP would give better results.  Remember, one shot is doing it all...not a combination of multiple shots.  The larger the area you take a pano of (room), the better it turns out.  The company doing those QTVRs is most likely using a fisheye lens and rotator device in three shots.  Great way to do it on large expanses or when time isn't a factor (notice what they charge per hour).

A 5mp image (2592 x 1944) would produce an image approximately 800 pixels tall.  A 8mp image (3264 x 2448) would produce an image approximately 1000 pixels tall.  That's a guesstimate using 40% as the factor.

iPix...stay away from them.  Outrageous costs/fees are involved and the quality is questionable.  You can use a Java based viewer that'll provide better results than iPix's proprietary system, with the same usability among platforms.  iPix uses a proprietary lens as well (2 shot system).

*Make sure whatever camera you get, that it has good manual controls.*  You need them due to the glass and lighting conditions you'll have to deal with.


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## antonioconte (Apr 3, 2005)

OK, excellent, thank you very much.

Finally I think I'm clear, basically I can get excellent QTVR results by purchasing the following:
 Nikon Coolpix 8400 as 8 megapixel or the 5700
 360-1-vr RE Kit (http://www.red-door.co.uk/pages/productpages/360one.html)
and a lense adapter for the coolpix 8400 which apparently I should be able to get hold of for £100?

What do you think?

Thanks again in advance!


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## Natobasso (Apr 4, 2005)

No need for a 360 camera. Just use iPix 360 software. It takes care, for the most part, of the warpage you get when you stitch images together. I finally remembered the company:

http://www.ipix.com/


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## antonioconte (Apr 4, 2005)

but this 360 camera means you just take one shot and thats it, stitching frames together would take a little longer, no?


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## Natobasso (Apr 4, 2005)

No, that's what the iPix program does so well!


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## antonioconte (Apr 4, 2005)

but surely you still have to take more shots?


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## Natobasso (Apr 4, 2005)

Naturally.


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## Natobasso (Apr 4, 2005)

The great thing about iPix is that one you give it the shots it puts them together and stretches them. I don't have the program but I assume it's very painless.


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## antonioconte (Apr 4, 2005)

I've had a look at some samples on ipix.com and they're ok but not as good as QuicktimeVRs. knoiw what I mean?


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## Natobasso (Apr 4, 2005)

I haven't seen the ones for Qucktime VR, but usually the rule is "Crap in, crap out". The panorama software can only do as well as the images it's given. But that's true with anything.


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## mdnky (Apr 5, 2005)

Natobasso, iPix is a royal pain in the U know what.  Their licensing fees also are outrageous.  It's anything but painless, quality is marginal at best.

antonioconte, good luck with it and let us know how it turns out.  I think you'll be happy with that setup.  Don't forget to spend some extra $$$ on a nice case to protect everything.


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## Natobasso (Apr 5, 2005)

That's not what I heard, but you're certainly entitled to your opinion.


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## antonioconte (Apr 5, 2005)

thnaks for your comments and advise


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## mindbend (Apr 20, 2005)

I might recommend trying the demos. Most of the pano software have demos. I tried them all and ended up deciding on Stitcher. It's a bit clunkier at first. Not as obvious how to do things as the others, but once you get used to it, it's far more powerful (thus the price tag).

Here's some examples of exterior stuff I did with it. Keep in mind, I am not a photographer. I have no idea how to use pro lenses or anything. These are just basic tripod panos. One thing I cannot stress enough in pano work is to BE LEVEL. You are asking for a big headache if you are not level.The more off level you are, the more image you have to waste cropping the final pano. Note that in the examples, I really didn't spend any time fixing things, so you'll see some seams where I was lazy. Also, these were all shot with a typical $200-ish digital camera. It's a lot easier with outside lot and lots of room. Tight interiors sounds like a total pain.

Also, I personally find widescreen panos a lot easier on the eye.

http://www.coffeecreekwc.org/pages/media_center.htm

http://www.sandcreek.com/res/pages/panos/pano_wtrfall.htm


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