# 17" PowerBook



## buggerit (Jan 7, 2003)

No-one picked it!

GOLD!!!!!


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## wtmcgee (Jan 7, 2003)

$3299, guess i should start saving my money now eh


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## malexgreen (Jan 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by buggerit _
> *No-one picked it!
> 
> GOLD!!!!! *



I predicted bluetooth built into their powerbook and ibooks. I'm glad to see the 12" powerbook. With bluetooth built-in, a 867MHz PPC CPU, it is a good value proposition.


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## Edge100 (Jan 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by buggerit _
> *No-one picked it!
> 
> GOLD!!!!! *



Only www.macrumors.com seemed to be on top of this one.  They also predicted the 12" PB!


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## cockneygeezer (Jan 7, 2003)

Dear All,

I have just recently received my new PowerBook G4 15.2" SuperDrive, the best there is, or was, in the last two weeks. 

I am a little angry that Apple has released the 17" PowerBook, only what, 2 months after the speed bumps of the exisiting PowerBook line.

I feel ripped off and short-changed, but I also feel that the PowerBook that I have is now obsolete. Yes, I know it's still powerful, but I went out there to get the best their is, and it has taken me 6 weeks to receive my new PowerBook, for only for it to be knocked off the top-stop in 2 weeks. The SuperDrive model is still in short supply here in the UK. I suspect that quite a few people are changing their orders...?

Surely, Apple should do a Part exchange program for people who have recently purchased new PowerBook's like myself. I would gladly give more money for an exchange for the better model.

It seems that Apple are learning other computer suppliers tricks...

My two cents worth...


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## stizz (Jan 7, 2003)

2 stupid questions I have are? (drumroll please)....

Will either of the new G4 Powerbooks boot into 9.2 (for various audio application purposes i.e. ProTools)

and

Is the 12' sufficient for mobile pro audo production? I am tempted to think so but I currently use a G3 Powerbook  with a 14 inch screen and I contend there is not enough desktop space.


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## Edge100 (Jan 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by stizz _
> *2 stupid questions I have are? (drumroll please)....
> 
> Will either of the new G4 Powerbooks boot into 9.2 (for various audio application purposes i.e. ProTools)
> ...



First, you'll only have to wait until the end of the month to have ProTools 6 for OSX, so this MAY be a moot point.

Second, you will still only get 1024X768 on the 12" PB, so you wont gain any real estate.  BUT!!!, the 12" supports external monitors (DUAL DISPLAY!!!) up to 1600x1200, you that should give you lots of space, spanning over both monitors, if this scenario is useful to you.


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## DeltaMac (Jan 7, 2003)

I thing Big Steve J answered your first question with NO more booting into OS9 for new Macs    #2 . that 12" with 1024x768 is probably not enough desktop space for what you want to do, but the 17"! looks like about 2 acres, huge


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## ScottW (Jan 7, 2003)

Boo Hoo! And I bet Apple has something else in the pipeline to make anything you buy today absolete in the coming year. Glad we live in a world that advances.

Otherwise, we would still be using horse and buggy.

Scott


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## cybergoober (Jan 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cockneygeezer _
> *Dear All,
> 
> I have just recently received my new PowerBook G4 15.2" SuperDrive, the best there is, or was, in the last two weeks.
> ...



I hope you're joking...

Why, oh, why would anyone buy an Apple *anything* that close to a MacWorld Expo? I feel your pain, but at the same time feel inclined to say that you kind of asked for it. I realize that they just recently speed-bumped them, but there hadn't been a MAJOR change in almost two years. Again I do feel for you, I just can't understand why one would make an Apple purchase any time near a MacWorld Expo.

My two cents worth...


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## stizz (Jan 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Edge100 _
> *...... BUT!!!, the 12" supports external monitors (DUAL DISPLAY!!!) up to 1600x1200, you that should give you lots of space, spanning over both monitors, if this scenario is useful to you. *



yes indeed

a very useful scenario, thanks

perhaps 12' is fine for anything I do on the move, then just plug into dual monitors at the studio or/and home.

gotta spend the xtra cheese on the superdrive. I only wish it was the 15' with these features at the 2000$ price point.


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## cockneygeezer (Jan 7, 2003)

Dear All,

I made the purchased believing that there wouldn't be any improvements on the PowerBook line in the Expo. It's not a question and why I bought the PowerBook so close to Expo time, it's more of the question "Why did Apple do a speed bump so close to Expo time?" and make people wait almost 6 weeks for them to get it. People are still waiting...!

Would it not be better if Apple announced today the SuperDrive/Speed Bumps in they PowerBook line, instead of just releasing it back in Nov?

All I can say is that I feel short changed and I won't be making this mistake again...

Thanks Apple...


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## jeb1138 (Jan 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by stizz _
> *perhaps 12' is fine for anything I do on the move *



12 feet would be good enough for me too! 

Why did Apple change the Mobility 9000 for the 440 Go?  I thought the 9000 was supposed to be slightly faster...?  Is the GeForce cheaper?  Is Apple mad at ATI?

Well, at least it will provide a very good way to benchmark the 9000 vs the 440 -- a PowerBook 1GHz 15.2" vs. a PowerBook 1GHz 17".

Also, Steve didn't make a big deal out of it using 333MHz DDR RAM, or maybe I'm just forgetting.  Maybe it's because of the half-speed problem they've got.  I assume the new PowerBook has the same problem.


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## hulkaros (Jan 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cockneygeezer _
> *Dear All,
> 
> I have just recently received my new PowerBook G4 15.2" SuperDrive, the best there is, or was, in the last two weeks.
> ...



Come on, friend! Be cool! The same here... 15 days ago (more or less) I got the 1GHz/DVD-R TiBook and YES somewhat I was pissed off... However, if you look closer you will see that the new 17" TiBook will be around in 7-10 weeks!

WOOOOH... That's 2 months for crying out LOUD... Which means for many people that the 2 month period maybe will go up to 3 months! Ooops! All of a sudden that makes me feel somewhat better... Also, the 17" maybe isn't all that portable now, is it? Yes, its slim... But at the same time is longer AND heavier! Also, what about battery life? We all know that the current model goes up to 4 hours or so, but what about the 17"? Will it last for 4 hours os more? Maybe, I'm pessimist here but I don't think so...

Anyways, I think that me, you and all the other people who bought the 15" TiBook we are lucky and maybe we have the sweet spot of TiBooks!

The thing that makes me feel bad is that the prices went down for our models just because a new model will come out in the next 2 months or so... And THAT methinks, sucks!


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## ScottW (Jan 7, 2003)

Anyone who listens to Rumors sites... or assumes anything... well...

I don't know. I don't want you to feel any worse than you already do.


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## andrewhicks (Jan 7, 2003)

And once again we get it in the neck.

Price is what is upsetting me.  I had some important meetings in several countries over Christmas and had to have a portable that could author multimedia with me.  So I went with the brand new SuperDrive (thinking they wouldn't release such a spangly new piece of kit so close to an expo if they knew new models were in the pipeline), which cost just under 2500 pounds here in UK ($4000 at todays exchange).  Now, 3 weeks after getting it brand new, the same is $2800.  Why oh why release new top of the range kit when you know you have something coming out at Expo.  If they didn't keep things so quiet, we could plan.  $1200 can buy a lot (.Mac, new Jag upgrades, iLife, etc and maybe an iMac to replace my ageing desktop).

And it scratches REALLY easily....  

But it is gorgeous, and light


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## EvenStranger (Jan 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cockneygeezer _
> *Dear All,
> 
> I have just recently received my new PowerBook G4 15.2" SuperDrive, the best there is, or was, in the last two weeks.  I would gladly give more money for an exchange for the better model.
> ...



And that's why God invented Ebay.  

Seriously though, It's going to always be that way. If the demand for 15.2" superdrive powerbooks is so strong where you are, take advantage of it and sell yours. You probably won't even take a loss if the demand is high enough. Then get the 17" for yourself. I know many people won't want the extra width of the 17" model. It's getting to be the size of an artist's sketchpad, and much heavier!


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## Langley (Jan 7, 2003)

> Originally posted by cockneygeezer I feel ripped off and short-changed, but I also feel that the PowerBook that I have is now obsolete.



BAD luck......welcome to the world of technology and progress.  Your purchase was good enough before so how has Macworld broken your Powerbook?


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## adambyte (Jan 7, 2003)

*AdamByte hugs his old PowerBook G4 500*

I still love mine. Not too big, and not too little. Juuuuuust right. 

You have my sympathies, though, cockneygeezer. You bought it thinking you were getting the biggest best laptop you could buy. I suppose eBay is your best shot, now, if you want a 17.

Granted, I dunno how much I'd like a 17inch PowerBook... that seems a bit big.... guess I'll have to see it at an Apple store and try it.


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## OmegaMan (Jan 7, 2003)

I'm still waiting for the 22" TiBook!   

Damn that 17" looks good!  Ambiant lighting keyboard!  Darn those intuitive apple engineers!  *droool*

No wonder I'm not working there....guess I can't think as differently.  hehe


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## ScottW (Jan 7, 2003)

Yea, I wonder if it will be too big. Can't wait to see one in person.


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## buggerit (Jan 7, 2003)

i tell you what, i stayed up till 4 AM (aussie time) for MW, and up until the powerbooks it was fairly mundane. but now...

Hooray for cool powerbooks!


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## phatsharpie (Jan 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cockneygeezer _
> *Dear All,
> 
> I made the purchased believing that there wouldn't be any improvements on the PowerBook line in the Expo. It's not a question and why I bought the PowerBook so close to Expo time, it's more of the question "Why did Apple do a speed bump so close to Expo time?" and make people wait almost 6 weeks for them to get it. People are still waiting...!
> ...



If you look at the specs closely, you will see that the PowerBook you purchased is just as nice if not better than the 17" PowerBook announced today. The video card on the 15" PowerBook (ATI Radeon Mobility 9000) is a MUCH BETTER video card than the Nvidia Geforce 440 Go! Some of the other features of the 17", such as DDR RAM, doesn't really add much to speed (look at comparisons b/w DDR PowerMacs vs. non-DDR PowerMacs). You are missing out on only a few things - Firewire2 (I am sure 3rd party PC Card is coming soon), Bluetooth integration (buy a dongle), and AirPort Extreme (okay, a miss, but have you already saturated your bandwidth on the network?).

The 17" has a bigger screen, that is indeed nice, but it's not faster than your new TiBook (both at 1GHz), there was no speed-bump, and you scored with a MUCH BETTER video subsystem!

You didn't miss out on anything, so what's the problem?


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## leadfootedfool (Jan 7, 2003)

I agree about most of that, but i would like the al u mini um case.  At least I got a gig of ram,  0% financing, and the ability to carry it somewhat easily.  So maybe all is not lost.



Sorry, but being a yankee everytime i hear it pronounced al u mini um, it brings a smile to my face.


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## stac (Jan 8, 2003)

Well, folks - count me in as one of the 15-inchers who bought 14 days ago - I just couldn't help myself as my friend at CompUSA shot me a deal for $2749 for the 1Ghz model. I was happy as a pig-in-slop until today - then I started really comparing what I have to what the 17" offered... and I have to say I'm not unhappy anymore. I can't afford to lose even a minute of battery life - and that thing looks huge. Heck - despite it's thin waist, the 15" borders on large for my tastes... Anyone willing to dub the 17" 'The Manta Ray'? The wings on the side of the keyboard look imposing...

Keep the faith...
Stac


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## stac (Jan 8, 2003)

OK - on second thought - I must have the backlit keyboard - damnit... 

Cheers!
Stac


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## mightyjlr (Jan 8, 2003)

two days ago, when I was taking a break from wiring some new light switches, i tried to use my powerbook in the dark, since there was no way to get any light in my room...  I thought, "hey, it would be cool if my keyboard was backlit, and if that backlight was the same color as the blue led.  THAT WOULD BE AWESOME!!".  It was a very weird and startling experience seeing the keyboard in the 17" during the keynote...  It was basically exactly what I imagined.  Not trying to say I thought of it first, I obviously didnt, but it was VERY VERY strange.


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## Peter King (Jan 8, 2003)

Personally I think that the 12 incher is cooler than the 17" 

And anyways... we all know where the keys go! I could type in the dark, blindfolded, with my hands cut off! Maybe...


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## kendall (Jan 8, 2003)

I think the 17" PowerBook is ideal if you need a desktop solution 90% of the time and a portable solution the other 10% but don't want to invest in two machines.

I still think the 15" PowerBook is awesome and the best buy overall for a powerful portable solution.  I would like to see however its case upgraded to Aluminum along with FireWire 800, Bluetooth and AirPort Extreme.

The 12" PowerBook looks strikingly similar to the 12" iBook and really doesn't offer $600 worth of advantages over the iBook 800MHz in my opinion.  I think its major selling point is going to be the SuperDrive.  I think Apple will scrap the 12" iBook and either release a new 13" iBook or revise the 14" one.  I don't see there being three different iBooks for much longer.

I have always been very imperssed with Apple's notebooks and believe its the only computer that Apple has a clear cut advantage over the PC.  

I think Apple may have realized switches may not want to buy a Desktop for their first Mac but maybe give their PC a Mac notebook companion!


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## Zammy-Sam (Jan 8, 2003)

I read the GeForce Go cards are better than any Ati mobility. Anyone who can prove me wrong? I would be happy!
And one thing that troubles me about the 17inch pb: can the alu-case handle pressure in the middle on the screen? Imagine you got it closed and your boss comes and puts his hand on top of the apple-logo...
Yewwwhaaaa
and I saw there are no "gummi-distancers" on that 17inch pb! Looks like the whole cover leans on the downpart. If so, does the keyboard f... up the screen than? Little issue about the tibooks...
I also think, that the current tibook is the best choice, if you are not really into fast wireless transfer. and is there any device out there supporting firewire800? I am just wondering why they didn't use USB2.0? That would have been much smarter than firewire800, if you ask me. And the disc couldn't handle 100MB/sec at all, eventhough the ide-cable would...
So? Why firewire800 than?
Just trying to prove you guys, that the tibook is really the best deal  for now.

Cheers

Sam


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## Zammy-Sam (Jan 8, 2003)

and one more thing:

did anyone of you guys ask himself, how weide the angles for the viewing of the 17inch screen would be?

Since the screen is really weide, I think you might see a loss of contrast at the left and right side when you look to the center of the screen.
the older tibooks had this problem which I didn't notice on the current tibook, cause of the incredibly bright screen.
But now the 17inch pb is even weider... well, I doubt they can make it that bright, but we'll see...


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## leadfootedfool (Jan 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zammy-Sam _
> *I read the GeForce Go cards are better than any Ati mobility. Anyone who can prove me wrong? I would be happy!
> And one thing that troubles me about the 17inch pb: can the alu-case handle pressure in the middle on the screen? Imagine you got it closed and your boss comes and puts his hand on top of the apple-logo...
> Yewwwhaaaa
> ...



Tom's hardware had a test of the ati 9000, 420 4go, 440 4 go, and 460 4 go and the 9000 thoroughly stomped the 440 4 go in MOST tests but not all.  The 460 was the only competition for it.


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## Zammy-Sam (Jan 8, 2003)

Do you have a link for this test, leadfootedfool?

I kinda doubt it was an apple system. The comparison between those graphiccards on windows systems won't be same as for apple, since most of the tests are based on direct3d. The results might look completly different under OpenGL used on apple systems. If Tom did good job, he also must have compared the OpenGL performance of both. 
And in such tests the GeForce Go (even 420) always performs faster than the ati 9000 mobility, as far as I know


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## leadfootedfool (Jan 8, 2003)

http://www6.tomshardware.com/mobile/20020829/radeon9000-01.html#the_contestants

You're right it wasn't on a mac, but comparing the 440 and 9000, they're almost identical.  It's a tossup between the two.  Now as far as the 460 thats something else.


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## quiksan (Jan 8, 2003)

funny, I had a similar conversation with a co-worker today.  (I'm a switcher at heart, and rooling for the day I can actually jump on that wagon and get an apple laptop. )

The 17" alBook has got me so hot!  course telling my co worker that they just released this new version, she says, "See, if you keep waiting, you'll get something better."

hmm, the problem there is that I could wait FOREVER, and there will ALWAYS be something bigger/better/faster/etc to look forward to.  

I agree, for those who just bought their TiBooks within the last month or so, this is a revolting development.  But life happens.
they'll prolly release a killer new version of an AlBook directly following my future purchase of a 15" or 17".

I'll hafta deal I spose, but in the meantime, you all have your snazzy apple laptops, and I am stuck on a pc....

puts things in perspective, eh?


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## Zammy-Sam (Jan 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by leadfootedfool _
> *http://www6.tomshardware.com/mobile/20020829/radeon9000-01.html#the_contestants
> 
> You're right it wasn't on a mac, but comparing the 440 and 9000, they're almost identical.  It's a tossup between the two.  Now as far as the 460 thats something else. *



I have just compared the results for Quake3Arena from the graphiccards. The Geforce Go performs better than the ati 9000 even the 440 has higher frames. I am not sure about the other benchmarks, but I think most are direct3d. Still I was very surprised, that the ati performs so much better than the Geforce Go, even that it's direct3d


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## leadfootedfool (Jan 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by quiksan _
> *funny, I had a similar conversation with a co-worker today.  (I'm a switcher at heart, and rooling for the day I can actually jump on that wagon and get an apple laptop. )
> 
> The 17" alBook has got me so hot!  course telling my co worker that they just released this new version, she says, "See, if you keep waiting, you'll get something better."
> ...




I was all stoked about the keynote yesterday.

PB= check.
Airport=check.
First stream on the mac=dud.

I ended up watching the thing on my pc because I couldn't get it to work on my pb.  Then they announce the new ones. DOH!!  But anyway, I'm not to upset, people have to wait 7-10 weeks for their 17"ers and I get to use mine that entire time.  And if I was always worried about them updating I'd never buy one.


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## Cat (Jan 8, 2003)

Leadfootedfool wrote:
"I ended up watching the thing on my pc because I couldn't get it to work on my pb."

I had a problem on my iBook too! So I watched on my peecee, which crashed right before the announcement of the new PowerBooks 

About the lid: Aluminium is more rigid than titanium if I remember correctly. You would need a whole lot more of info to calculate exactly how much pressure the lid of the 17" can stand, but if they hadn't thought about it thoroughly (the issue being known from the Ti) they woulndn't release it.


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## Zammy-Sam (Jan 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Cat _
> *Leadfootedfool wrote:
> "I ended up watching the thing on my pc because I couldn't get it to work on my pb."
> 
> ...



I doubt that aluminium is more rigid than titanium, but anyway, if Apple gave it a thought than I am really fine with it!  
It's just one of the first things I would check, if I could hold that Baby in my arms...


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## jeb1138 (Jan 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zammy-Sam _
> *...is there any device out there supporting firewire800? I am just wondering why they didn't use USB2.0? That would have been much smarter than firewire800, if you ask me. And the disc couldn't handle 100MB/sec at all, eventhough the ide-cable would...
> So? Why firewire800 than?
> *



I can't believe Apple already added Firewire 800 to their lineup!  That's awesome! I'm so happy!  

First off, USB 2.0 is already inferior to Firewire 400, especially for applications requiring guaranteed delivery and total reliability.  Check out tomshardware's review of the two standards:

*"the main application for FireWire was real-time data transfer, with digital video, for instance.  This points us to exactly the advantage that FireWire has to offer, because the data stream must remain uninterrupted with such applications. "*
and
*"The advantages offered by the FireWire protocol cannot be used by scanners, digicams, DSL modems or joysticks. On the other hand, USB 2.0, in its current form, could never deliver continuous streams of data, which are required for hard disk recording and video applications."*
http://www6.tomshardware.com/mobile/20020827/index.html

So basically, USB (1 or 2) doesn't deliver in many applications that Apple is focusing their digital hub strategy around.  On the other hand, Firewire always delivers but often some of it's coolest features aren't taken advantage of.  However, if you've got Firewire already for the applications that do use it, there's absolutely no reason that you need USB 2.0.  USB 1 is still essential because of its super low cost to implement in devices, and the PB has USB 1.  Firewire can replace USB 2.0, but USB 2.0 _can't_ replace Firewire.  Of course, realistically, the PC world will be as slow as ever to jump on the innovation train and there will be lots of peripherals, like cameras, out there that only have USB 2.0, I'm sure.  So it would be nice for Apple to add USB 2.0 just to ensure compatibility with the sluggish PC peripheral world.  However, USB 2.0 hasn't even really caught on fire (in terms of devices available and people that have it) yet in the PC world, so Apple still has a good amount of time to add this.  More important in my mind is that Apple drive innovation and plan for the future and their awesome digital hub strategy, which is what Firewire 800 does.  Firewire isn't just faster than USB, it's a far superior technology.

Think big, think this:  Your house is wired with Firewire 800 ports everywhere.  Every device, every digital toy, communicates with each other.  Wireless Firewire arrives and your TV, Tivo, iPod, DVD Player, PDA, Audio system, telephone, _everything_ talks over the same single line (wired or wireless) to your desktop or laptop computer.  And with tcp/ip over firewire you don't even need ethernet cables and you maintain compatibility.  Cool!  There's so many applications for that capability, I won't even start!  And even better, firewire, unlike USB, allows devices to talk directly to each other without needing a host (aka a desktop/laptop computer) and enables peer-to-peer networking among _devices_ so your Phillips receiver can tell your iPod what to do, and etc.  Finally, you _must_ have guaranteed data delivery, which is the nail in the coffin for USB 2.0 in such applications.

Why do we need firewire 800 instead of 400?  Firewire 800 is perfect for the digital hub not only because it is faster, but because of much longer possible cable lengths -- up to *100m per hop* (between devices) compared to *4.5m per hop* with Firewire 400!!!  Try wiring a house or connecting lots of equipment with a maximum cable length of 4.5m!  As for speed increase, remember that theoretical maximums are different than actual maximums and that today's hardrives push firewire 400 to its limit _today_.  Hopefully, harddrive speeds will soon eclipse firewire 400 capability completely.   And besides having just a single harddrive eating up all the bandwidth, think about multiple devices, like I mentioned above, using the bus at the same time.  Talk about the need for speed!  Apple will use Firewire 800 to take the digital hub strategy to the next level.

I still hope they include USB 2.0 someday, but I'm much more pleased to see Firewire 800 than I would be to see USB 2.0.


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## Zammy-Sam (Jan 8, 2003)

Hmmmm, very interesting jeb1138!

but unfortunately the market for peripheral devices belongs to the pcs and they seem to be really up with USB 2.0
There is no pc or laptop sold without USB 2.0 in these days.
And there are not many companies producing firewire devices, no matter if for pc or mac.

It's a pity after I read what it can do... well, guess this leads us to the same question: why are there pc-users, when there is Mac?


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## dlloyd (Jan 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zammy-Sam _
> *There is no pc or laptop sold without USB 2.0 in these days.*



Well, we don't care about PCs, do we? 



> *
> And there are not many companies producing firewire devices, no matter if for pc or mac.
> *



There may not be many companies, but there sure are a heck of a lot of devices.


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## Zammy-Sam (Jan 8, 2003)

This might be a bit off the topic, but allow me just this little question:
what kind of firewire devices are available yet?
I know about discs, webcams and cams.
Never saw a firewire-hub whether for multiple devices nor for networks (you know, routers, switches...) and are there firewire-scanners or printers?
Sorry for this stupid questions, but this firewire stuff caught my interest. I have the plug but never used it...


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## Javintosh (Jan 8, 2003)

there are a lot of devices. there was a firewire hub that was built into a godzilla plastic toy (with the ports running down the back). there are cameras and conpact flash readers and a bunch of other stuff.

go to http://guide.apple.com and search under firewire products...


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## jeb1138 (Jan 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zammy-Sam _
> *Hmmmm, very interesting jeb1138!.*



Thanks!  I've got even more interesting info too! (I hope!) 



> _Originally posted by Zammy-Sam _
> *but unfortunately the market for peripheral devices belongs to the pcs and they seem to be really up with USB 2.0
> There is no pc or laptop sold without USB 2.0 in these days.
> And there are not many companies producing firewire devices, no matter if for pc or mac.*



Actually, there are a lot of Firewire devices.  Often they are the 'professional-grade' devices so you probably just haven't noticed them.  Consider the major peripherals that need high-speed data rates:
1.  Digital cameras
2.  Digital video cameras
3.  Hard drives
4.  Printers
5.  Scanners
6.  MP3 players

How is firewire doing in all of these?
1.  Almost every current professional grade digital camera is firewire.  Go check out Canon's and Kodak's websites, for example.  Canon has 1 that isn't firewire, and it's the low end of the professional grade and it uses USB 1.  All of Kodak's professional grade cameras are firewire.
2.  Every digital video camera I've heard of (and I've heard of a lot!) uses firewire, and firewire only, to transfer video.
3.  Every company that I know of that manufactures external hard drives or hard drive kits makes more or at least as many firewire harddrives as USB 1 & 2 hard drives combined.
4.  Failure!    Firewire has failed with printers, for some reason.  Anybody know why?  I don't.  Perhaps because of the 4.5m cable length limit (one more reason we need Firewire 800!)
5.  Many, many high-end and especially professional scanners use firewire.  Epson's most expensive scanner, for example, supports only firewire and SCSI, even though it has various USB 2 scanners already.
6.  The iPod!  What more must I say?  Even PC MP3 players (ones with a decent amount of space) include firewire now.  The Nomad Jukeboxes, for example.

Firewire has been and will continue to be very successful, especially as digital cameras, video cameras, scanners, &etc get higher & higher resolutions.

I think Apple understands the peripheral market and its directions a lot better than the rest of the industry.  For example:
1.  USB 1
2.  Airport 802.11b
3.  Firewire 400

And Apple's involvement in them:
1.  Apple pioneered the use of USB 1.  They pushed the rest of the industry into that success.
2.  Apple pioneered the use of WiFi (802.11b).  They were the first company to ship laptops with built-in Airport (802.11b) cards, to include internal antennas and the only one still (that I know of) to include built-in airport slots and antennas in their desktops.
3.  Apple pioneered the use of Firewire 400.  In fact, they invented it!

Now Apple is beginning to include bluetooth built-in on their laptops -- ahead of the industry, pushing the industry again.  For those reasons I trust Apple's judgement about peripheral technologies.  

I agree with you that USB 2 _must_ eventually be included on Macintoshes, because the sluggish PC world has gotten it into its head that USB 2 is a good idea and the PC world will bring much of the peripheral market with them eventually.  Eventually, but not yet.  Do a survey of current consumer scanners, digital cameras, printers, card readers, etc. and I think you'll see that USB 2 hasn't _really_ hit the market very hard yet.

Basically I think Apple understands that USB 2 is, well, a stupid idea, and I think Apple understands that eventually it must support USB 2 as well.  But I think it's a good idea for Apple to use whatever power it has to try to push firewire and fight USB 2 for as long as possible.

USB 2 is a stupid idea because:
1.  Computers _are_ heading towards the digital hub role.
2.  The digital hub _needs_ firewire.
3.  If the digital hub needs firewire, and it _has_ firewire, then the digital hub _doesn't_ need USB 2.
4.  USB 2 costs more than USB 1 (to put on a motherboard and to put in a device), and I don't like to pay more for things, especially when they aren't very useful.

There are plenty of firewire hubs out there, I looked on google and saw at least 6 or 7 different brands right off.

You haven't seen firewire routers for home networking because firewire 400 wasn't very good for networking at all.  Again, can you imagine networking hardware becoming popular which required every cable to be less than 4.5m long?  That's why we need Firewire 800!  And that's why I'm so glad Apple has it out!  I hope they have big plans up their sleeves for Firewire 800, because it sure has a lot of potential.

p.s. -- come to think of it, maybe USB 2 did have had at least one redeeming quality:  it put the pressure on Apple & their partners to get Firewire 800 out.


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## mightyjlr (Jan 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zammy-Sam _
> *I doubt that aluminium is more rigid than titanium, but anyway, if Apple gave it a thought than I am really fine with it!
> It's just one of the first things I would check, if I could hold that Baby in my arms... *



having taken apart my powerbook to install an Airport card I can tell you (at least from what I saw) that the outer Ti shell is not rigid at all.  it is thinner than my fingernail.  the inner frame is what makes this computer rigid it seems, so using aluminum shouldn't really be a problem.


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## ApeintheShell (Jan 9, 2003)

It seems with the 12" they are going to can the iBook line soon. But you never know. 
I would want the 17" for gloating and design reasons but i don't think it could fit in my bag pack or on a school desk. I don't trust it with the rtd people either. Still i wonder why they went with the aluminum alloy. Was it because the titanium was too easy to scratch? 
I have always pondered the idea of having a laptop but i don't really drive to business meetings or give lectures to people in other states.  My dad is reviewing them and my brother wants the 15". go figure.


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## mightyjlr (Jan 9, 2003)

the iBook line is in absolutely no jeopardy of being canned...


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## stac (Jan 9, 2003)

Well, thanks to that PC user for putting all of this B.S. about which powerbook I have into perspective. No matter whether I have the 15" or the 17", I'm better off than anyone weilding a PC notebook. I think that is enough for me...

Now, who's the entrepreneurial soul who will offer a replacement keyboard for us poor Ti owners who need the blue backlighting? 

Peace,
Stac


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## fryke (Jan 9, 2003)

Please keep away from trolling/flaming...

And I agree with mightyjlr: Apple won't kill the iBook, and the line is still cheaper than the PowerBooks. The iBook line has been successful since its introduction, mainly because even the 'consumer' or 'cheap' line has been full featured (at least since the iceBook's introduction). The 12" PowerBook is more powerful than the iBook and appeals more to the professional who would otherwise maybe choose a Sony or Toshiba subnotebook. In comparison to those, the TinyBook is still quite unexpensive.

The real problem in the lineup is the 15" model, which now suddenly looks a bit old - not in style, but in features. Let's hope that it'll be upgraded to at least integrated Bluetooth and AirPort Extreme soon enough.

I also wish Apple would, in about six months, have again a cleaner notebook line like this:

iBook 12" and 14" with about the same specs but G3s at 1.0 GHz or more (depending on the G4's achievable speed, I guess) plus AirPort Extreme.

PowerBook G4 13" widescreen with 1152*768 or better at 1.2 GHz or more.

PowerBook G4 15" widescreen with 1280*864 or better at 1.4 GHz or more.

PowerBook G4 17" widescreen with 1440*960 or better at 1.4 GHz or more.

Best would be if you could freely choose processor speed, harddrive and optical drive in the PowerBooks, so you'd basically could order a cheaper 17" model (with the lowest available processor) or an expensive 13" model (with the highest available processor).


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## garymum4d (Jan 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DeltaMac _
> *I thing Big Steve J answered your first question with NO more booting into OS9 for new Macs    #2 . that 12" with 1024x768 is probably not enough desktop space for what you want to do, but the 17"! looks like about 2 acres, huge  *



Apple have announced that all new Mac's WILL boot into OS9 until June 2003 due to pressue from Quark (although Quark runs fine in Classic so there is no need to boot into OS9)


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## Cat (Jan 9, 2003)

Fryke wrote:


> Best would be if you could freely choose processor speed, harddrive and optical drive in the PowerBooks, so you'd basically could order a cheaper 17" model (with the lowest available processor) or an expensive 13" model (with the highest available processor).



Now _that_ is a very good idea! I would jump immediately on a 12" G4 @ 1Ghz and 20 Gb drive. I don't need a bigger HD, but I would enjoy the speed. Moreover I would really really like to have the ATi 9000 in it instead of the nVidia GForce.

Yes: Apple, let us customise! (Or let us know why we sholdn't. Heat? Dimensions?)


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## EvenStranger (Jan 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by garymum4d _
> *Apple have announced that all new Mac's WILL boot into OS9 until June 2003 due to pressue from Quark (although Quark runs fine in Classic so there is no need to boot into OS9) *



Actually, if I remember correctly, Apple has said that only existing models would continue to boot into OS 9, meaning the new Powerbooks are exempt from that restriction. iMacs, eMacs, and Towers should all boot 9 fine until they are upgraded again.


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