# Jaguar vs. .mac



## xaqintosh (Jul 24, 2002)

I'd like to know the general opinion here. Many people seem to be upset about .mac, many others seem to be upset about Jaguar. I personally think Jaguar is worth it, but .mac is pathetic


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## azosx (Jul 24, 2002)

I'm new to Apple so I didn't pay for 10.0 or 10.1 so Jaguar will be my first OS purchase for my PB G4 and I have no problem paying $69, down from $129, for it.

I can understand though how people who may have purchased 10.0, 10.1 and now 10.2 in the span of less that 2 years might feel a little burned.  If they payed full price, that's near $400 for esentially 1 OS and two upgrades.

.mac is too expensive for such little substance.  I wont be subscribing.  Luckily I didn't use it before and have even less reason to use it now.  I feel though for the people who truly relied on it.  Not everyone has $100 anually to blow.  Apple really worked these users over.


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## fbp_ (Jul 24, 2002)

ditto


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## simX (Jul 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by azosx _
> *I can understand though how people who may have purchased 10.0, 10.1 and now 10.2 in the span of less that 2 years might feel a little burned.  If they payed full price, that's near $400 for esentially 1 OS and two upgrades.*



Yet another bunch of FUD.  Are you Mr. Orlowski from The Register?  Because your trolling sounds awfully familiar.

Let me show you something called "addition" and "subtraction":

Let's look at two people, one who has used Mac OS X since the public beta, and one who has used Mac OS X since Mac OS X 10.0:

Person 1: Using OS X since public beta:

Mac OS X public beta.... cost: $30
Mac OS X 10.0........... cost: $129 - $30 (coupon from public beta)
Mac OS X 10.1........... cost: Free upgrade.
Mac OS X 10.2........... cost: $129

Let's add that all up.  $30 + ($129 - $30) + $129.  You have a calculator on your Powerbook G4, no?  $30 and -$30 cancel out.  So you have $129 + $129.  That makes.. what?  $258.

Person 2: Using OS X since Mac OS X 10.0:

Mac OS X 10.0........... cost: $129
Mac OS X 10.1........... cost: Free upgrade.
Mac OS X 10.2........... cost: $129

So in this case we still have $129 + $129, or $258.

You say $258 is nearly $400.  Well, let's do something called "subtraction", now.  $400 - $258 is $142.  That's quite a bit of error.  I think that's a little far-fetched to call $258 "near $400".

Are you vastly overestimating in order to troll some more, or did you fail elementary school math?


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## Aftershock (Jul 24, 2002)

Let's just say that I'm .pissed


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## newzworld (Jul 24, 2002)

10.1 wasnt a free upgrade for everyone, unfortunately due to my lack of credit card, i ended up having to pay full price for it.  It will come to a $360 bill for me!  (boy do i feel stupid)


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## simX (Jul 24, 2002)

OS X 10.1 was a free upgrade if you had bought OS X 10.0 before.  If you hadn't, you hadn't spent the $129 on OS X 10.0 and instead would've spent it on OS X 10.1, resulting in the same $258 price tag for OS X so far.

I don't get how you can POSSIBLY have spent $360 on OS X so far unless you waited too long to get OS X 10.1 and the free upgrade was no longer being offered.


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## ElDiabloConCaca (Jul 24, 2002)

Ok, here goes one hot-headed rant.  Brace yourselves.  Of course, this is only my opinion, and the opinions of others (obviously) could differ greatly.

I love Mac.  I love Apple.  I have no problem paying $129 for Jaguar.  In light of the competition, that's a TINY fee.  Look at upgrades for Windows -- they run much higher than that.  Also, $100/year for .mac ain't too damn shabby, either.  So what if you were under the impression that your mac.com email address was good for life?  Are you THAT pissed off that you have to pay now?  You know the computer industry.  You know how companies work.  If you didn't expect this at some point down the road, whoa -- check yourself.  Apple doesn't charge for too many things.  You buy their computers and you buy their OS.  Hell, you get the OS FOR FREE when you buy the computer.  When Jaguar is released, you'll get it for free when you purchase a new machine at that time.  Otherwise, $129 is NOT a bad upgrade fee.

Apple's doing a good job.  They have released some INSANELY cool and useful software packages that are absolutely free.  They provide a great computing environment.  Support them.  Fork over your cash.  Lord only knows the people at Apple are -- they're doing a damn good job of upgrading and making OS X everything it should be and then some -- support them.  Dig deep in those pockets and fork over $129 with a smile on your face -- that's what Apple deserves.  For being the red-headed step-child of the computing world for the last 15 or so years, they deserve some credit and support, not a bunch of people complaining that they're not getting their free lunch anymore.

Let's examine the costs: $129 for OS X 10.2.  $100 for .mac (and that's being generous -- it's only $50 right now for anyone).  That's a little over $200.  You know what a little over $200 would get you if you were a member of the dark side?  That's right -- next to nothing.  And it would be a buggy, unstable next to nothing to boot.

Don't be a fairweather friend to our buddies at Apple.  After all, they ARE a business and need to make money -- YOUR money.  You know that being a computer user isn't a "spend-money-one-time-on-the-computer-and-never-spend-another-dime" experience.  Support Apple in times of good and bad... or don't support them at all.  They're not running an extortion ring.  They're not charging outlandish prices for their goods.  They're not renigging on any contracts.  Apple users have just gotten greedy, plain and simple, and it's apparent in the posts all over this board and all over the internet right now.

Am I upset that Apple's charging for .mac?  Nope, it was expected and predictable at some point.  But they aren't just charging for it now -- it's been kicked up a few notches and well worth the price.

Am I upset that I'll be paying full-price for 10.2?  Nope, it was expected and predictable.  And if you didn't see it coming, well, I just don't know what to say about that.

Let's all pay $129 for Jaguar with a smile on our face, just as I suggested before.  Let's support the company that's allowing us to have the best computing experience on the planet.  Yes, let's fork over our hard-earned cash to purchase this software.  After all, Apple did it for us and continues to do it.

Sorry if that was disjointed or sounded like a mindless ramble -- but hell, people, it's only $129.  (Ok, ok, a little more in Europe and other countries, but hell -- get over it)  I'm just sick and tired of hearing people bitch about incurring such a small cost compared to the competition.  You people are never satisfied.


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## newzworld (Jul 24, 2002)

because my MOTHER wouldnt pay for the 10.1 upgrade, i had to wait and eventually the upgrade disappeared.  then, weirdly she let me order 10.1  so yes i paid for both 10.0 and 10.1 and now i will pay for 10.2


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## ElDiabloConCaca (Jul 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by simX _
> *You say $258 is nearly $400.  Well, let's do something called "subtraction", now.  $400 - $258 is $142.  That's quite a bit of error.  I think that's a little far-fetched to call $258 "near $400".
> 
> Are you vastly overestimating in order to troll some more, or did you fail elementary school math? *



Word up, my brother, my brother.  These people act like Apple's screwing them over left and right when in actuality, all they're doing is charging a nominal fee for some great software, unlike some OTHER software companies we know... 

I could see this train coming from a mile away, and I expected it.  It just amazes me -- the amount of greediness among Apple users -- and then they turn it around and accuse Apple of being greedy.  What a bunch of hypocrites.


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## ElDiabloConCaca (Jul 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by newzworld _
> *because my MOTHER wouldnt pay for the 10.1 upgrade, i had to wait and eventually the upgrade disappeared.  then, weirdly she let me order 10.1  so yes i paid for both 10.0 and 10.1 and now i will pay for 10.2 *



So is the money coming out of YOUR pocket or your mother's?  You couldn't afford $30 for the 10.1 upgrade, but you can afford $129 for the 10.1 upgrade?

Something doesn't make sense.  Sounds like you dug your own hole.


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## simX (Jul 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ElDiabloConCaca _
> *
> 
> Word up, my brother, my brother.  These people act like Apple's screwing them over left and right when in actuality, all they're doing is charging a nominal fee for some great software, unlike some OTHER software companies we know...
> ...



The funny thing is that BOTH Mr. Orlowski at The Register and azosx both said "near $400" when talking about the total cost of OS X so far.  That's a 55.04% error  that's a pretty extraordinary amount of error for a mistake.

Oh, and I also think that both the cost for .Mac and Jaguar are completely reasonable.  $50 is extraordinary for a year of an awesome set of internet tools.

newzworld: Your mom wouldn't pay $20 (ElDiablo: it was $19.95  ) for an upgrade and later decided to let you pat $130?!?!  Furthermore, many Apple resellers were offering the free upgrade package at their stores.  I don't see how it's possible that you could've missed the upgrade opportunity, unless you were in another country where the upgrade cost more and resellers weren't providing upgrade packages for free there.


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## newzworld (Jul 24, 2002)

look i can afford it, barely but im buying it with my moms credit card cause i dont have one, and there isnt a mac store near us.  so by the time she ordered it, 10.1 cost 129 instead of 30, i paid her, she ordered it


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## xaqintosh (Jul 24, 2002)

you COULD have gotten it off of eBay, like I did, for about $15 including shipping, well after the expiration of the "free upgrade". therefore you are an aberration and do not count in this poll


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## ElDiabloConCaca (Jul 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by newzworld _
> *look i can afford it, barely but im buying it with my moms credit card cause i dont have one, and there isnt a mac store near us.  so by the time she ordered it, 10.1 cost 129 instead of 30, i paid her, she ordered it *



You know, credit cards aren't the only way to pay for things.  You could have bought a money order or cashier's check and simply mailed it to Apple.

Like I said, you dug your own hole.  Apple didn't burn you -- you burned yourself, plain and simple, and it would be nice if you took responsibility for your own actions.  I understand that you're angry about this, but you should be angry with your own lack of research and action, not directing your anger at Apple.


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## newzworld (Jul 24, 2002)

i know, but what about my friend, i just converted him to macs and he bought a new computer before the macworld expo, and now he has to pay 129 for 10.2?  I just think that it should be made cheaper for people who have 10.1 thats all


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## xaqintosh (Jul 24, 2002)

if your friend is a student (s)he can get jaguar for $70 at the education discount. 

Let me remind some people: You *don't* _have_ to get jaguar. It is OPTIONAL. (Unlike M$ at times )


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## ElDiabloConCaca (Jul 24, 2002)

Well, I disagree... 10.2 is awesome and well-worth $129, upgrade or no upgrade.

What about your friend?  He assumed that he would get a discounted price?  Well, remember that stupid saying, "When you assume, you make an ass out of U and ME?"

So your friend got a new machine that he's happy with, and he's gotta pay $129 for the baddest OS software ever.  And he's STILL unhappy?  AND -- to top that off, you, a Mac-user, let him purchase a brand-new system right before an Expo?


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## newzworld (Jul 24, 2002)

hah wouldnt that be funny, and i knew 10.2 was coming too, no i told him not to and he said, and i quote "dont worry me!" and we are high school students, no discount


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## mr_mac_x (Jul 24, 2002)

First off, get out of Newzworld's shoes-they don't fit you. I doubt that we completely understand his position and we're not in one ourselves to criticize him or his past actions.



> _Originally posted by simX _
> *Person 1: Using OS X since public beta:
> 
> Mac OS X public beta.... cost: $30
> ...



But say you also want to get .Mac to continue the services that you already _bought_ with Mac OS X. Now you've paid $308. Or, what if you bought Mac OS X but never got around to signing up for iTools? Now you're paying $358. And that's getting mighty close to azosx's number.

And this is why I'm OK with Jaguar. I think that $258 over almost two years is fine (especially towards my favorite company).

But (and I'm sorry I can't find my OS X box to quote from) when I bought OS X, the box said something about 'OS X enhances the internet with iTools,' not 'OS X includes a free trial offer of iTools, and at an undisclosed time we'll kill it and make you pay loads of cash for .Mac.'

My $.02


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## simX (Jul 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by mr_mac_x _
> *First off, get out of Newzworld's shoes-they don't fit you. I doubt that we completely understand his position and we're not in one ourselves to criticize him or his past actions.
> 
> 
> ...



.Mac/iTools is not something that I am obligated to pay for when buying OS X.  OS X is completely functional without .Mac.  I prefer to continue my membership to .Mac, however, and so I will fork over the money to do so.

Point being that OS X has not cost near $400, and still will not be anywhere near that number once I get Jaguar.  OS X + .Mac will be $308, still nowhere near $400.  If I wasn't an iTools member, then it would be $358.. *but for OS X AND .Mac*.


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## hulkaros (Jul 24, 2002)

Come on guys! If you REALLY like Apple and its products you should go and buy BOTH Jaguar and .Mac without asking/throwing too many questions  

At least what you buy, even for the sum of $230, is WORTH every single cent of it unlike many things that we buy in our times (Wintel products anyone?)  

Do yourselves a favor and support Apple by buying that Jaguar and dotMac products and even better buy a second or even a third Mac!


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## mr_mac_x (Jul 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by simX _
> *.Mac/iTools is not something that I am obligated to pay for when buying OS X.  OS X is completely functional without .Mac.  I prefer to continue my membership to .Mac, however, and so I will fork over the money to do so.
> 
> Point being that OS X has not cost near $400, and still will not be anywhere near that number once I get Jaguar.  OS X + .Mac will be $308, still nowhere near $400.  If I wasn't an iTools member, then it would be $358.. but for OS X AND .Mac. *





> _From the OS X 10.0 Box _
> *Designed for the Internet Age*
> Built using many of the same technologies that power the Internet itself, Mac OS X gives you the power to get connected faster and easier--and do more when you get there--with best-of-class Internet applications such as Mail, Internet Explorer, and iTools.



iTools is *included* in OS X just as much as Mail or Internet Explorer is. OS X and iTools are two peas in a pod, two sides of a coin. And I bought that pea pod/coin.


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## Izzy (Jul 24, 2002)

yikes...I forgot that iTools was on the MacOSX box...

that does make that bad taste in my mouth seem worse...


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## toast (Jul 24, 2002)

I'd like to get jaguar for cheaper so I can buy RAM for my G3/500 RAM128 iMac ! RAM would make OSX faster.

I'm bored with throwing money at Apple. It looks like encouraging them to go their way, and I hate, HATE the .mac way. They've gone nuts on this one.


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## McMickey (Jul 25, 2002)

Hmmm let's see what did I pay, what will I pay and what do I have to pay?

I use Mac OS X 10.1.5 at this moment....
10.0....free....it came as 10.1.3 with my iBook...$ 0,00.00
10.1....free....it came as a system upgrade CD with a new G4...$ 0,00.00
10.1.1..free...
10.1.2..free...
10.1.3...free...
10.1.4....free..
10.1.5....free...(i know it gets boring )
So total cost of using X so far..............$ 0,00.00
Upgrade to 10.2..... 169.00 (about $ 169.00)
So for this little amount of money I own Jaguar...The best running/looking/compatible/awesome system I've seen!!
Hmmm sounds like a pretty good deal to me!! 
I problably won't have to pay for Jaguar cuz I'm getting a new Mac (I'm have patience... )
.mac?? I didn't use iTool...got my own domain..no pay there..
Conclusion:
I paid zip, will pay zip and have to pay: zip!!
Instead I think I'll buy some more Apple Shares!!!


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## Sighter (Jul 25, 2002)

I dont know for you guys but I purchased my first Mac "LC-630"
to be able to work with it. Do jobs, creative stuff (I'm a fotographer / Cameraman)
Well, I dont know for you but here's the way I see it:

The Mac is a really cheap tool for working or a really expensive toy.

If you just own a Mac for entertainment I wish to remind you this...

- Go get a Car just for fun and let me know about your expenses
- Buy a VTT
- Get yourself a Pool...Hihihihi

Of course everything will seems expensive everytime you have to pay
if your Mac is not bringing any revenue at home for you... Then, if thats the case,
remember that Entertainment IS expensive and that a computer for the only
purpose of entertainment is a really expensive toy...

BTW, anyone knows the price of Windows XP Pro  ????  Hehehe!

-Sighter


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## Snowball (Jul 25, 2002)

but in the Terms of Service agreement or whatever they call it there was a clause that said something like "Apple reserves the right to discontinue iTools at any time for any reason without prior notice. By clicking Agree you consent to these terms."...so they were never legally obliged to keep iTools free for 10.1/earlier users. I think it is actually pretty incredible the way in which they worded everything to avoid possible future legal issues.


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## gibbs (Jul 25, 2002)

simx- so what if azosx made a math mistake. Most of his points still seem to stand to me. He wasn't even making a flame about it. If you go up and read the paragraph that you quoted before it begins with "I can understand..."

I have to say that azosx gets a lot of flaming on this board and he takes it pretty damn well. I tend to believe that azosx has some fairly well developed opinions and I agree with a lot of his comments on this thread, AND on other threads.

simx- I am not here to flame you or criticize you, but I do think you can be a little easier on someone without sounding so harsh or angry during a discussion. I know you can.

[flame guard on]


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## simX (Jul 25, 2002)

gibbs --

I appreciate your comments.

What I don't appreciate is people like azosx who vastly overinflate the situation, making things like the price of OS X seem outrageous (when it is, in reality, perfectly acceptable), and things like Apple's dismal hardware seem outrageous as well (when in fact Apple has some very awesome offerings).

I, too, feel for people who simply want mac.com e-mail addresses and now they cannot get it.  But I think Mac users, in general, seem to be a little high on their horses about price.  Maybe it's because the Mac is more expensive up front (but for me it's always paid off in time and money saved later).  And yes, iTools was advertised as a selling point for Mac OS X.. and that may piss off some users too.

Whatever it is, I think that people need to give Apple a break, and maybe even try out .Mac.  Existing iTools users can get a year of .Mac for only $50, which seems to be a steal for what you get -- that's like $4.15 a month, whereas you might be charged more than that just for webhosting at other places!

I was very disappointed with Apple when they announced that they will charge for .Mac, and I STILL think that they should allow free mac.com e-mail accounts.  But I will give .Mac a try and see how it goes.. who knows, Apple might have some compelling .Mac feature in half a year that will kill .Net entirely.

The only reason I jumped on azosx here is that it's pretty hard to mistake $258 for $400, and all that does is heat people's emotions up even more. The reality is that Mac OS X will have costed only $258 after people buy Mac OS X 10.2, and that's not too shabby for a stable and innovative (I don't see Microsoft or other platform including Rendezvous out of the box) operating system.

And when you only take a vastly overestimated price into account and not the compelling features of Jaguar, you get what's called "misconstruing the truth", and "sensational journalism".


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## ElDiabloConCaca (Jul 25, 2002)

I'm going to have to go with simX on this whole thread.  MANY people have been manipulating the truth and making this out to be some sort of money-grubbing fiasco headed up by Apple, which is simply NOT the case.

Yup, get used to it people -- as of now, there's no "upgrade pricing" for Jaguar, and that's perfectly ok and normal.  I understand nobody likes spending their hard-earned cash, but hell!  It's only $129, and Phil Schiller summed it up and proved that it was within Apple's histrical pricing scheme.  So it wasn't a big surprise unless you've been under a rock for some time now.

My main concern is that all I've been hearing since the keynote ended was bitching about the pricing of Jaguar and .mac.  Look at the threads here -- people are starting silly petitions to try and get the price of Jaguar reduced.  Gimme a break!  I understand that people who just purchased 10.1 feel a little shafted, but hey, that's corporate America and it's not a surprise, nor is it underhanded or devious in any way.

Where are the threads about how kick-ass the new 20GB iPod is?  Where's the threads about how bad-ass the iMac 17" is?  Hell, Apple lowered prices on BOTH those things by about $100, yet the only thing that people find important is how they're going to have to SPEND about $100 to get Jaguar.  I know it's the latest-and-greatest thing, and that's why I think Apple was justified in charging full-price for it.

That's it.  I wanted to write more but I'll just get more and more upset about how people are threatening to abandon Apple for this so-called "stupid" move.  Fine, if you're going to be that way, leave.  Apple doesn't need you anyways, and if you think by abandoning Apple over $130, well, rest assured you'll lose more than that amount of money going to the dark side.  It's amazing that people will let Microsoft rape them for thousands of dollars, yet think Apple is bending them over because of $130.


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## ksv (Jul 25, 2002)

I'm not upset about the 10.2/.Mac pricing, and no one should be. Apple did a mistake when they didn't offer ".Mac lite" or anything like that, but give them some time.

However, I _am_ concerned about Apple in general, and how their strategies become more and more microsoft-ish. They charge for absolutely everything, and it doesn't lead to _anything_ good for the customers. It's just _so_ clear that Apple are losing profit on the hardware side and has to make it up with charging money for everything else.
It will probably only result in customers (especially users new to computers) not upgrading to the latest versions of Mac OS X. That's bad for both sides.

Apple has a serious problem, and they can't hide it.


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## Snyper M (Jul 25, 2002)

As I haven't had to pay for any of my OS's yet, just got the computer last year.  I'm fine with the educational cost of Jaguar.  Seeing as I barely have a job it seems this summer a full priced 129$ would hurt a bit more, but in the whole scheme of things it's not a ton of money.

As for .Mac.  I woudl really love to see a reduced pricing for email only as i'm sure many of you would.  Most of us use that as our primary email and changing it now would be rather inconveninent.  I wouldn't mind paying 10$ for email a year as I mean that seems to be practical, hell macosx.com is doing it and I may go that route.  

Trtufhully at the very least I just want pop/web mail no need for imap.  I'm sure apple could do this for free, or at least damn close.  Or they could simply offer complimentary email redirection for current itool mail accounts.  If they offered features I felt were worth the 100$ a year and that I could feasibly afford, then I'd waste not a moment in ordering it.

So in short we need a cheap mail only solution as it seems that's all most poepel are upset about, or at the very least a mail redirection service.

Just my thoughts.


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## simX (Jul 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ElDiabloConCaca _
> *Where are the threads about how kick-ass the new 20GB iPod is?  Where's the threads about how bad-ass the iMac 17" is?  Hell, Apple lowered prices on BOTH those things by about $100, yet the only thing that people find important is how they're going to have to SPEND about $100 to get Jaguar.  I know it's the latest-and-greatest thing, and that's why I think Apple was justified in charging full-price for it.*



ElDiablo: My thoughts exactly.  See this thread.


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## mit4 (Jul 25, 2002)

As a fan of WinXP (but a bigger fan of OS X), I have to correct this:



> I have no problem paying $129 for Jaguar. In light of the competition, that's a TINY fee. Look at upgrades for Windows -- they run much higher than that.



This is just false - Windows XP Home is $99 and you can get it for even cheaper in some places.  XP Professional (only adds minor features like Remote Desktop which Apple sells as a separate $300 product) is $199.

Overall, I still think OS 10.2 is a better deal.  But let's compare apples to apples when it comes to cost.  And MSN is still free for the time being!


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## hulkaros (Jul 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by mit4 _
> *As a fan of WinXP (but a bigger fan of OS X), I have to correct this:
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, let's do compare apples to apples:
Windows XP Home costs $180
Windows XP Home Upgrade costs $85
Windows XP Pro costs $250
Windows XP Pro Upgrade costs $170

You are WRONG completely believing that XP Pro offers what Apple offers with Remote Desktop! You better check Remote Desktop offerings first and not just try to figure things out! Remote Desktop is a long story all by itself, one that we will leave it for another time, maybe 

As for Mac OS X.2 (aka Jaguar) is closer to XP Pro in features and in some areas it surpass it, easily! There is no way that XP Home compares with Jaguar in features... Hell, it can't compare with XP Pro to begin with! So, if you want to compare REALLY apples to apples, Jaguar costs $40 less than XP Pro, so there! 

As for MSN, surely you messed things up! You mean Hotmail is free and some of MSN services are free but they don't offer similar services to .Mac, yet! An example could be that EVERYTHING you pay for .Mac has one major advantage over currently MSN services: They tie-in with Jaguar or if you prefer are built-in... Another one is that you DO NOT see any ads, including Apple's whereareas you cannot say the same thing about MSN now, could you?


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## ElDiabloConCaca (Jul 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ksv _
> *They charge for absolutely everything, and it doesn't lead to anything good for the customers.*



I think this is just wrong altogether.  Apple does NOT charge for everything.  In fact, they don't charge for the majority of their iApps, and haven't charged for email and backup space until now.

Apple may or may not be losing money, but it's unfair to accuse them of charging for things that should be free... you don't get to make that decision -- Apple does, and I think they've done a fine job of charging customers for the things that are worth paying for.  And they don't charge a ridiculous amount of money, either -- in fact, it's relatively cheap.  Hell, it's cheap even without being relative... or comparative.  Apple's OS and .mac are just cheap, comparatively or not.

Don't want .mac?  Don't buy it.  But don't criticize Apple for giving it away for free for a long time then deciding to charge a NOMINAL fee for it ($100/year = $8.33/mo., however, it's $50 right now... $50 = $4.17/mo.).  That's DIRT cheap.  Jobs never said you'd get free email for life.  You didn't sign any contracts that said you get it free for life.  However, you DID agree that Apple could change the terms of your iTools subscription whenever they wanted.  And they did.  They did it in the best interest of the company and the customers.  Everyone should have seen this coming... if you didn't, I'm sorry.  What, would you rather Apple have raised prices on their desktop systems?  Or laptops?  Or howabout this: let's follow Microsoft's lead and charge $200 for an OS!  Or impose ridiculous anti-piracy schemes that NO ONE likes so they can be sure they get paid for EVERY licensed copy of the OS out there!  OR EVEN THIS -- LET'S _REQUIRE_ USERS TO PURCHASE UPGRADES, EVEN IF THEIR CURRENT COPY WORKS JUST FINE!

It's cheap, it's cool, and it's useful.  What's all the bitching about?


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## gibbs (Jul 26, 2002)

simx- point read and understood. I can see why you feel that way.

I personally dont care much about .mac at all. I am dissapointed in one size fits all pricing scheme, because it is a classic example of bait and switch, whether you like the switch or not. Obviously a lot of people don't.

I only care about Jaguar, and the speed really. Almost everything else in OS X I already really appreciate.


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## ksv (Jul 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ElDiabloConCaca _
> *
> 
> I think this is just wrong altogether.  Apple does NOT charge for everything.  In fact, they don't charge for the majority of their iApps, and haven't charged for email and backup space until now.
> ...



Personally I don't care because I'll get a free copy of 10.2 anyway, and I already have a better email account than the @mac.com one.
Yup, their prices are completely acceptable too, but for many users they aren't, and _that's_ the point. Apple is losing custiomers on this. Many users (especially schools, universities, organizations and new users) will probably not update simply because it costs too much and  becuase they don't see the worth of it.

I'm not presonally upset about the prices, just pointing out that what Apple is currently doing has to be done in an other way.
Just look at all the online petitions and the price per Apple share, and you'll see what I mean.


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## simX (Jul 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ksv _
> *Personally I don't care because I'll get a free copy of 10.2 anyway, and I already have a better email account than the @mac.com one.
> Yup, their prices are completely acceptable too, but for many users they aren't, and that's the point. Apple is losing custiomers on this. Many users (especially schools, universities, organizations and new users) will probably not update simply because it costs too much and  becuase they don't see the worth of it.
> 
> ...



While I won't delve into the discussion about whether or not Apple is losing customers for charging so much, and about the online petitions, I would like to point one thing out:

Apple's stock has never been one to follow normal rules.  Jobs does a keynote at MacWorld, Apple's stock goes down.  Apple releases awesome new products, it's stock goes down.  It's weird but true.  I think it's in part due to all the rumors that always fly around before a product expo, so people get their hopes up, get disappointed about Apple's product offerings (like the .Mac and Jaguar fees overshadowed the awesome features in Jaguar and .Mac, and I STILL don't see anyone raving about the new 17" iMac and new iPods) and so Apple's stock goes down.

Apple's stock price has nothing whatsoever to do with the state that it's in.  Apple is in a great position right now with Mac OS X and their hardware offerings, and it's stock price just doesn't reveal that.


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## ksv (Jul 26, 2002)

Anyway, petitions against Apple with 30000 signatures aren't good, and that _is_ a clear sign that Apple has done another mistake.


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## ElDiabloConCaca (Jul 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ksv _
> *Yup, their prices are completely acceptable too, but for many users they aren't, and that's the point.*



How are Apple's software prices NOT acceptable to many people?  I don't know of any other mainstream desktop OS solution that costs less than Jaguar, besides Linux, which really isn't mainstream and really can't be considered a desktop OS solution yet.

A little over $100 seems cheap, cheap, cheap -- even to someone with no money -- compared with the other offerings out there.  I just don't understand -- I think people were shocked that they had to pay ANYTHING for Jaguar, and directed their shock directly at Apple, when they should have been directing at themselves for assuming they'd get something for nothing.


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## ksv (Jul 26, 2002)

For the last time;
Do you _really_ think e.g. a school that has just bought Macs for every classroom, and barely can afford pencils and draft books for their pupils, would pay $69 for every single computer, for a _system update_? Eh, no!?

That's why we have 133 MHz pentiums running Windows 95 at school.


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## ElDiabloConCaca (Jul 26, 2002)

First of all, a school that can afford a classroom full of Macs can definitely afford a box of pencils.  No two ways around it.  And if that school chose computers over pencils, then I'd be inclined to say that school needs some serious review of their administration.  Computers are useful, but it's the children's brains that do the work -- not the computers.  I grew up without computers in my schools and I turned out just fine, and pretty damn computer-savvy at the same time.  And we always had a pencil to write with.

Second of all, $69 per machine for a system update (and oh, WHAT AN UPDATE!) is pretty damn affordable compared to upgrading a Windows machine -- and, we all know damn well that Apple will help out the educational sector in order to regain some market share there... they did it in Maine (is that correct?) or WHEREVER they did it -- for much cheaper than the educational prices... remember the plan to put an iBook in the hands of every 6th-8th grader?  They didn't get the prices as listed on the educational Apple store page -- they got them for MUCH less.  And I'm sure Apple would do the same for a school full of Macs that wanted to get Jaguar on all their machines.

And I hope to high heaven that if you're still running Pentium 133s that you've got a well-stocked supply closet full of pencils and draft books.  Otherwise I'd be tempted to say you're living in a 3rd-world country -- I don't know of a single school in America that can't afford pencils and draft books.  You're making this situation out to be worse than it actually is.  Plus, what's the harm of running OS X 10.1.5 for a year or so until the school's funds catch up?  Hell, that's what most schools do now!  My university is still on Windows 2000 Pro -- not XP Pro -- probably because of the cost prohibitive upgrade path -- but we encounter no problems doing the things that people do with XP Pro every day.

Just because OS 10.2 is out (well, as of Aug. 24th) doesn't mean that people will be forced to upgrade.  Apple's not holding a gun to your head chanting, "Upgrade or else."  Look at Microsoft -- they're SERIOUSLY considering FORCING people to upgrade their software when new software is released!  That means if you're running Windows 2000, and Microsoft releases Windows 2001 or whatever, you'll be forced to pay whether you want or not, because if you don't, Microsoft will disable your previous software.  Now THAT'S what we should be bitching about -- not a room full of perfectly good Macs that could either be upgraded or not.


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## ksv (Jul 26, 2002)

To say it in an other way, why charge for updates at all? What's the point? Microsoft has to because Windows is their primary income source.
I'd gladly pay some more for new Macs if it included free software updates for e.g. a year or two. That would keep all Macs up-to-date, and both sides would be happy.
Tell me, how many 70 years old grandmas are going to pay for the 10.2 update? Or former PC users who just bought a brand new Mac? 
I know a lot of both Mac and PC users, and I can tell you that the only ones of them who pays for software updates are the pro-users.

Over to an other topic; no, on my school we are only given one pencil and a rubber every year. The ventilation system doesn't work, so we have to have the windows constantly open. That results in a classroom being 17°C in winter and 33°C in summer (yes, I've brought a thermometer several times and measured). Bugs and insects crawl out of the drainpipes in the shower in the wardrobe. And this is Norway, listed by the UN as the best country to live in (  )


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## wtmcgee (Jul 27, 2002)

i was just hoping for an upgrade price for 10.1 owners.... other than that, im fine wiht everything else.


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## nuke10 (Jul 28, 2002)




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## dsibilly (Jul 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by simX _
> *
> Person 2: Using OS X since Mac OS X 10.0:
> 
> ...



OK, how about this situation: I've had a copy of 10.0 since release ($129), but until recently didn't even have a Mac to put it on.  In order to use any of the productive software (Photoshop, Office, etc) I had to run out and buy 10.1 less than a month ago ($129)... now Apple wants another $129 for 10.2.

That's (129.00)x3 = $387.00

Pretty close to $400 for my liking for an OS that STILL isn't finished.  It's great, but why am I paying hundreds of dollars for what's still a late-beta OS?  It wasn't finished with 10.0, 10.1 made it at least useable, and 10.2 is doing nothing but adding features that should have been there from the get-go.  I understand that Apple needs to make money, but with so small a market share, they need to make friends too...


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## fryke (Jul 30, 2002)

Okay, what OS is a finished product nowadays, anyway?! Windows XP? Yeah, sure. SP 1 will be out soon. Plus they'll charge for the Plus! package (which adds stuff that should be _inside_ the package).

Mac OS 9? Yes, that's true. It's a finished product. It's also a bit out of date, technically, and of course not a current product. Maybe the old days _were_ better? Nope. I like Mac OS X.

And I also consider it a finished product.

If you bought Mac OS X 10.0 without having a computer to run it on, you're erhm, either quite dumb or a big fan of Apple and bought it to support them. But then you won't argue the price for Jag is too high, right?

However you turn it: You have paid 258$ for Mac OS X so far (that includes Jaguar) - or you didn't make use of Apple's free offers. And that's either since March 24, 2001 or even September 2000 (Public Beta).


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## 90X Double Side (Jul 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by dsibilly _
> OK, how about this situation: I've had a copy of 10.0 since release ($129), but until recently didn't even have a Mac to put it on.  In order to use any of the productive software (Photoshop, Office, etc) I had to run out and buy 10.1 less than a month ago ($129)... now Apple wants another $129 for 10.2.
> 
> That's (129.00)x3 = $387.00



You bought 10.0 when you didn't have a computer, then you bought 10.1 retail, even though it was a free upgrade to Mac OS X users, and even though Apple had announced months ago that Jaguar would be released this summer? I don't think you can blame Apple for that. Also, 10.0 was availible many places for $119 or $109 (or with free RAM, etc.), so the most a thrifty shopper could have payed for Mac OS X is

10.0: $119
10.1: $0
10.2: $79

Total: $198

And if you tried to give Apple every penny you could by paying MSRP for everything and ordering the mail-order 10.1 with the new devtools CD (which you can pick up for free now, btw), you would still pay only

10.0: $129
10.1: $19
10.2: $129

Total: $277, over 18 months.

Now, $198 is not out of line with the $80-100 Mac users have traditionally payed per year for OS updates, and people have payed for updates much less significant than 10.2, like 7.5, 8.5, and 9.0, without complaining. If you didn't do any shopping around on any of the updates, it's a little more than the norm, but we've gotten quite a lot more innovaton than we usually do. Did buying 8.0, 8.5, and 9.0 give you as many new features as buying 10.0, 10.1, and 10.2? It certainly didn't for me.


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## dtmdoc (Jul 31, 2002)

im relatively new to macs (not including my foray into apple back
in the days of the IIc etc).  I bought my first mac
in dec with 10.1.1 or 10.1.2.  also im eligble to get jaguar
at 20 bucks cuz i just got my iBook one week ago.  So I'm not
too upset with the price per se, but I can understand
why many would be.  Also, I dont know why Apple
had to emulate M$ in regards to .Net vs .Mac.  

At the least, email with a small storage space should still be
free.

Just my $.02


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## caramelApple (Jul 31, 2002)

1.) Youre lucky because you bought an iBook
2.) youre lucky because you get Jaguar at $20! 


ahhhh... i envy you... thats my dream... to get an iBook with Jaguar running on it... ahh....


but im only 14... so what hopes do i have in raisisng enough money...


The Mac Geekette


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## xaqintosh (Jul 31, 2002)

you can work at dunkin donuts for 5 years...


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## dtmdoc (Jul 31, 2002)

LOL 

i had to settle with the iBook.. I really wanted
the ti667, but couldnt swing the cash for it


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## theed (Aug 1, 2002)

1. dtmdoc - I think the iBook is an excellent value.  The TiBook is cool, but pushing the limits of dollar value.

2. You all suck.  This thread has been people ripping on each other instead of listening.  Each and every person who posted to this thread sucks.

3. Generalizations are always wrong.

4. A note to those who don't know me, 2 is overstated, 3 says so, and 3 is self effacing / self contradicting.  It's a joke, laugh.  

5. We have 6 Herve's.  And counting I assume.

6. I think .mac is overpriced at stated pricing, but reasonable at $50 / year for how much most people will use it.  It's just that MANY people only used / will use the e-mail. and $9 per month for an e-mail address is more than AOL charges for 7 of them, and AOL'll give you free dial up for 3 hours / month with that.

6.2 Virus protection as a feature?  I don't use it now.  How is this a feature?  I have only had one virus on my computer, it was a Word Macro virus in help documentation that I never read ... and I don't use Word.  Anyway, I think that one year subscriptions could be given away with purchases like OSes and machines, and I haven't seen this.  I'd gladly pay $100/year to get major OS upgrades for free upon release.

7. I can pay for 10.2 - but I don't understand why Apple is trying to fragment their user base.  The stats I saw were like 10% using X and 90% using 9.  Why break up the user base into 9, 10, and 10.2 when the money made from current 10 users is tiny compared to 9 users and new users.  That's what tweaks my noggin.

8. I feel like I'm gonna butt heads with El Diablo again.  I know a lot of people who are dropping their mac.com accounts because the package doesn't fit them.  I think Apple could make similar money and offer similar services, but continue to offer $15/year or free e-mail only 5M accounts.  10.2 is supposed to add features, not kill old ones.  The OS and its services was not intended or marketed as subscription based.

9. .mac is probably the most awful name to give this service.  I think it was meant as a playful jab at microsoft, and instead it has come off as emulation.  Why this is so could be an interesting discussion, but probably not one that will happen here.

10. I write too much when I'm angered.


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## ElDiabloConCaca (Aug 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by theed _
> *8. I feel like I'm gonna butt heads with El Diablo again.  I know a lot of people who are dropping their mac.com accounts because the package doesn't fit them.  I think Apple could make similar money and offer similar services, but continue to offer $15/year or free e-mail only 5M accounts.  10.2 is supposed to add features, not kill old ones.  The OS and its services was not intended or marketed as subscription based.*



Don't worry, I butt heads with EVERYONE here... didn't they tell you?  It's in the licensing agreement -- I've been sent back through time to disagree with everyone on most points made.  Sorry, it's my job...  

Anyways -- I'm finally coming around and seeing what people have been so upset about.  I don't want to pay for .mac.  And that's a silly name.  "iTools" would be MUCH more appropriate NOW, seeing how Apple finally implemented some TOOLS this time around!  I do think that $99 is steep now for what you get.  $50 is a great discount off of $99, but is still too steep for what you get.

I will shell out the $50 for now.  I don't want to lose my .mac stuff.  I don't like the feeling of being forced into paying, but hey, I can't complain -- beggars can't be choosers.  I like the feeling of using the integrated tools and what-not.  I just like the whole premise around .mac, and how it's gonna run circles around MS's .NET thingy.

I'm not backing down off my stance that $129 is just fine for 10.2.  And the user base won't be fragmented more -- it'll still be OS 9 vs. OS X.  There won't be any 10.1 vs. 10.2.  Maybe some compatibility issues, but it's all OS X.  Do you consider OS 9 users to be fragmented just because some are using 9.1 and others 9.2.2?


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