# Need Feedback on this Site...



## mwhite (Feb 1, 2002)

Rather small site but I just wanted to see what others thought.
http://www.sweetwaterseptic.com

Thanks


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## Nummi (Feb 1, 2002)

The flash was kinda slow... I am on old PEECEEs at school.  SO i would not owrry about it. Very nice... I like the puddles as links.


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## edX (Feb 1, 2002)

i voted sucks and i will tell you why. it sucks when anyone makes flash or java a requirement for their splash page. I shouldn't have to meet your requirements just to see what your site is about. as a casual surfer i would never switch browsers to view a personal page. if i was on a page and it gave me enough info or other incentive to do so, i might switch to see inside pages. other wise your site is going to be ingnored by many people.
to be sure i am not commenting on the artistic level of your site - because i never saw anything but an orange outline of a rectangle and a sanitation logo.


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## rinse (Feb 1, 2002)

it looks okay (colors, typography)... however the navigation is the worst kind! Mystery Meat is not a good scheme.

As a sidenote... Why does a septic tank cleaner need a flash site anyway? Kinda ridiculous if you ask me.

Did you think about the target market? I would assume that a barbones HTML site with nice clean layout and fast load times would be more beneficial to a service company like the one this site was created for.


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## AdmiralAK (Feb 1, 2002)

I voted Good.
I am on a T1 and did not really notive a lag in loading.

BUT, I do agree with Ed on one thing.  If you want to have a successful site, you need to have it coded for the  lowest common denominator, so that people without JS/java/flash can use your site.  I assume you want customers, so making 2 versions of the site would be a good idea (also get rid of the flash entrance -- put it on the flash only site)


Admiral


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## Nummi (Feb 1, 2002)

Do not listen to them.   everyone should have flash.  Flash is a standard.  If you do not have Flash... you are missing out on a lot of great stuff


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## mrfluffy (Feb 1, 2002)

it's good flash nice animations and navigation.

1. you do need html on the homepage for meta tags and people who dont have flash

2. keep the main site in flash, as there are only a few pages and html site would be a little thin content-wise

3. but always have an html site as well (for Ed)

other than that it's fine.


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## Nummi (Feb 3, 2002)

Use flash... 98.3% of all web users have the Macromedia Flash Player.  If they do not have it... too bad.  But I guess you should have a backup HTML site.


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## rinse (Feb 3, 2002)

just because people have flash, doesn't mean you should always use it.

flash is just a tool, and should only be used when appropriate... you don't see carpenters using power drills when the job calls for a standard screwdriver.


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## evildan (Feb 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ed Spruiell _
> *i voted sucks and i will tell you why. it sucks when anyone makes flash or java a requirement for their splash page. I shouldn't have to meet your requirements just to see what your site is about. as a casual surfer i would never switch browsers to view a personal page. if i was on a page and it gave me enough info or other incentive to do so, i might switch to see inside pages. other wise your site is going to be ingnored by many people.
> to be sure i am not commenting on the artistic level of your site - because i never saw anything but an orange outline of a rectangle and a sanitation logo. *



Ed, you're off base... The same thing was said years ago about Java... now look everyone has that. The site doesn't suck becuase you can't view it. How about joining the over 90% of those users that do have Flash installed. It's a free plugin go donwload it and be quite. It comes as a default plugin on most browsers.

It pisses me of when I hear someone wine about not having Flash. It's an industry standard, go download it! I realize I'm going a bit overboard in my response to ED's post, and I don't mean to pick on you ED... it's just a soar spot with me.

Because while he runs the risk of missing some audience members, he is taking a step to be different then the other sites out there. 

Voting it sucks, while it's your opinion and worthy of a post, is just wasting his time. He's trying to be different by making his website in Flash. Help the guy out and tell him useful things in a manner that will encourrage him to follow your advice... like "I'd suggest supplying your visitors with an HTML version when of your site when you're done." or Better yet... do a little leg work for the guy and say... "If you want to use Flash, I'd suggest using a Flash tester at the root of your site... that way users, like myself, who don't have Flash installed, automatically get routed to a non-Flash site. You can find a good tester here...  moock.org 

My prediction, which isn't that original of a prediction, is that websites are moving towards all Flash or all Java. Eventually we will have an OS like sit which will allow users to login and utiltize powerful tools all from a web browser. 

Being stuck in the mud and not upgrading is fine, but don't loose site of the fact that he was looking for help, not a slap in the face.

Possitive feed back will be awarded by a response. A slap in the face will cause us to look away.


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## evildan (Feb 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by rinse _
> *it looks okay (colors, typography)... however the navigation is the worst kind! Mystery Meat is not a good scheme.
> 
> As a sidenote... Why does a septic tank cleaner need a flash site anyway? Kinda ridiculous if you ask me.
> ...



Excellent points... mwhite, mystery meat navigation means that you have to move your mouse over an object just to find out where you're going. It makes it hard for people to learn more about the company. Also, in worse cases, people might even miss a big portion of the site.

I saw a few puddles were links, but by mistake. Even after knowing that they were links I found it labor intensive to "find" all of the other active puddles.

I'd suggest bringing in tags that rest on the puddles so it's a bit more obvious what goes where.

Here are some other things I'd suggest
- If you're going to use Flash, go all the way.  Pardon the expression but.... "you've got my prom dress off... now what are you going to do with me?"

Don't use it as a simple tool to highlight the site. A visitor of your site either has Flash or they don't. If they do have Flash, then why be selective in the use of it? What does it matter? Which brings me to this next suggestion...

- If you're going to consider using Flash, consider the people who won't upgrade their browsers. My guess is that people like ED might buy your product, his grip is real. 

Some people are just not going to be happy. These people include the kind that just changed the setting on their 686 Web Crawler browser so they can now view graphics on their 14" monitors... BUT their money is good too. Just becuase they won't use their money to buy a new computer, doesn't mean they won't buy your product.

Consider building a duplicate website that is straight HTML.

-Remember, Flash is NOT an "intro maker" for your site. Designers who use it that way are misguided. Make it worth my while - make me feel good about having the plugin installed. Flash can be a very powerful tool, it can create a very positive image for your company. 

I am going to do a website for a company that sells... well... fertilizer containers. The company Balzer Inc. sells products that start at $20,000 and on up. They need a strong image. They are not going to have a wide audience of people visiting their site. The promotional department for the Ad agency I work for has decided that the new website is going to be a selling tool, rather than a place for customers to buy the product from.

Balzer is also going to use the new website to post user manuals, recalls, and product warnings that normally would require a large number of support print material to accomplish. From the website, visitors will be able to see 360 VR models of their tanks. That will require they have the QuickTime plugin installed. 

I plan on developing a website that utilizes Flash, QuickTime and Java. When I pass my plans and design concepts to my web team, we will consider those without plugins/java browsers, but each website we do, we spend a little less time worring about the people that won't upgrade. Our market research is telling us that accross the board, Flash and Java are standard. 

Design for a 17" monitor and feel at ease in your decision to create an interesting website.


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## edX (Feb 7, 2002)

where to begin?

Evildan- i have flash installed. you will find that i have new versions of most anything before others even know they are out. However i do not use Netrape or Incest Exploder and i won't unless i absolutely have to. This is a political choice that you can find my arguements about in several threads in the past. I am not repeating them here. As a general rule i do not lend my monetary support to those who support my enemies. This site specifically states you need one of those two browsers. and icab, which is my browser of choice, does not yet handle the flash plug in. I am not lagging behind as you would infer, but rather working towards a better future by using and thereby promoting and establishing an alternative new generation browser that will free me from the impositions of M$ and AOHell. Never before have we been blessed with this opportunity with 3 new browsers being developed and used. We did our own poll recently and new browsers were about 50% among this site's users. so your marketing poll may leave you in the past if you are not careful.
Frankly if I were a potential customer of awhite's site, i wouldn't be after visiting it as it is now. And for the business that owns the site, that SUCKS!!!!!!!!! mwhite wanted a poll and feedback. i gave mine authentically. i could have just voted sucks and left. But i gave my legitimate reason so that he can correct this if he sees fit. that was not a slap in the face. it was real feedback.
i have my doubts that mwhite wanted anything more than lots of praise and pats on the back for his cleverness. One week later and mwhite has never even said thanks to the responses, much less given feedback to our feedback. What a waste of my energy or else an insult to my honest effort to help. and that of the others as well. Think of all you typed and now wonder if it is even being heard!! except by me, obviously.
btw - i was playing with the latest sneakypeek of Omniweb last nite and viewed the site with flash. it is clever. too clever for a septic company. i would wonder where my money was going if that was what i found in trying to be one of their customers. navigation is poor. confusion over whether they are a sanitation co. or a septic tank co. sounds like they are trying to live off the reputation of their father and uncles but aren't even in the same business.  black backgrounds with white lettering are hard to read and look more like something from a psychics page. little skeleton heads should pop up instead of trucks. 
and providing static pages withour flash animation to give the same info should take about 10 mins a page tops. I am not a webpage designer. i don't know all the tricks. but i do know that design can be too complicated and not serve the marketing purpose it was intended for. I know that after spending about 20 years in sales/advertising.


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## martinatkinson (Feb 8, 2002)

Hello!

My suggestions:

1.)  Put a better flash animation on the front page and make the entrance link more obvious.
2.)  Make an alternative HTML only site for those who do not have Flash.
3.)  Make the navigation links more obvious.  When I first entered the page I did not know where any links were.
4.)  You should make your whole site one flash file, load the index page and you are done, clicking on links brings up another section of the site.
5.)  Your email link on your contact page should link to your address.

I did a site for a garbage disposal company once, you can check it out at http://www.staffordswaste.com/  Some of these things you could use but I would not suggest putting up photos of your work  

Have a great day!

Albert


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## evildan (Feb 8, 2002)

First let me apologize to those that I have not apologized in private to for just about all of my posts yesterday. I realize I offended some people (ED, etc).  It's not in my normal behaviour to attack someone's opinion. 

The Flash/Non-Flash debate is an ungoing debate... one that I've argued for a long time, and yesterday I ignored all of my debating techniques and let anger get the better of me.

In College, and for a short time after, I use to critique art. My profs engraved the thought that nothing "sucks". If someone said that in his class, he'd kick them out of the class. Another conscience mind-set is to never use "I" as in "I like or I really don't like" in your observation of the work. So my attacks on ED and the other "anti-Flash" crowd was unfounded, your points were valid, and I was out of line.

Also

ED, your probably right about the feedback. The lack of response from mWhite would indicate that he's possibly not even interested in what we say about his work.

For those who are not Flashers, the site was a very simple mockup. Ed, you mentioned concerned about money mis-spent, I might have to agree with you, but not becuase it's some overdone website, rather, it's kind of over simplified Flash site.

As the subject of my posts indicates, I wish I could undo my posts regarding this subject.


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## evildan (Feb 8, 2002)

First let me apologize to those that I have not apologized in private to for just about all of my posts yesterday. I realize I offended some people (ED, etc).  It's not in my normal behaviour to attack someone's opinion. 

The Flash/Non-Flash debate is an ungoing debate... one that I've argued for a long time, and yesterday I ignored all of my debating techniques and let anger get the better of me.

In College, and for a short time after, I use to critique art. My profs engraved the thought that nothing "sucks". If someone said that in his class, he'd kick them out of the class. Another conscience mind-set is to never use "I" as in "I like or I really don't like" in your observation of the work. So my attacks on ED and the other "anti-Flash" crowd was unfounded, your points were valid, and I was out of line.

Also

ED, your probably right about the feedback. The lack of response from mWhite would indicate that he's possibly not even interested in what we say about his work.

For those who are not Flashers, the site was a very simple mockup. Ed, you mentioned concerned about money mis-spent, I might have to agree with you, but not becuase it's some overdone website, rather, it's kind of over simplified Flash site.

As the subject of my posts indicates, I wish I could undo my posts regarding this subject.


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## edX (Feb 8, 2002)

Dan - apology accepted.  I can see how i set off what in the therapy business is known as a 'red flag' - possible signs that something is wrong.  You simply made the all too common mistake of assuming the warning concludes the problem existing rather than asking a few questions to clarrify. We all do it from time to time. the mind just works like that. If this was the most foolish post you ever make on this site, you are doing good. forgive yourself.
btw - "I" would never have come up with the word sucks on my own. that was awhite's term and the only choice that came close to my sentiments. I am normally more tactful as well. 

i think the number one thing we are in agreement about is that sites need to be designed with choices when they start using much more than html.  and to use awhite's page as an example - the site could easily include a set of text links at the bottom of the first page. these could be placed low enough that they do not appear on most monitors upon load but could be scrolled to. this would avoid the distraction of their appearance to the fancier theme. each of the pages in the site could be created with the picture and the text in static form. While the 'lift' effect is clever and engaging, it is not necessary for the info to be presented. 

i also think some text on the puddles that are links would help navigation. these could be the same color as the color they change to so that they disappear when moused over.


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## mwhite (Feb 11, 2002)

Everyones input was very helpful especially ED SPRUIELL'S. There you go Ed don't get nasty!

Thanks


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