# Unacceptable



## Paragon (May 13, 2002)

I find the price difference for a PowerMac bought in US and one in Denmark unacceptable. If I buy a PowerMac 800 MHz and a 17" FP I have to pay almost $3500 compared to the US price which is around $2400. Now I know there is sales tax and all but I mean...46% more for a mac just because I live in Denmark. No wonder mac's aren't that big in europe. Why am I not able to order a mac through the US macstore??

Please Apple...make the prices more even.


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## Nummi_G4 (May 13, 2002)

That is wrong.  46% is way too much. 1% is too much!  The price should be exactly the same.


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## benpoole (May 13, 2002)

Agreed, but well, it's never gonna happen.

The fact is, Europe, and other territories, are always much worse off than our fellow Apple fans in the US. PeeCee manufacturers can often equliase prices, but it appears Apple can / will not. It's been like ever since I can remember with Apple, and I guess always will. This is partly why the Mac will never be as big in Europe as the US.

We discussed this a while back in this very forum with specific reference to the prices of the new iMacs here in the UK versus the US.

But all that happened was we Europeans were told to stop being "socialists" and get our local taxes down.


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## Paragon (May 13, 2002)

benpoole: I realise that Apple will not lower their prices in Europe, but that's not really my main concern, although I still think it's wrong. I was also wondering why I'm unable to order a mac through their website, when I can order a book through for example Amazon and only pay extra for the shipping charges. At the very least they should offer the same rebates as in US...in Denmark I cannot get the screensaver discount on $200.


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## pbmac (May 13, 2002)

I have compared German Apple prices to those in the US. Yes - all models are far more expensive (by about $300 - $500).

Why?

Well - here's the REASON: In Germany as well as many european nations, companies are required to offer 3-Year Warranties and Support!!!! That's two years more than Apple gives in the US!! Buy the Apple Care set to extend warranty to 3 years and you'll see that you pay just about the difference between German and US prices. Sure, even with this built-in 3 year warrante you're still effectively going to pay about $100 more. (But for a great Mac - isn't that worth sacrificing? ;-))

- pbmac
matthias


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## pbmac (May 13, 2002)

.... oh,... and lest I forget...

Macs are hugely popular in France

-me


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## benpoole (May 13, 2002)

Well, you can't order a Mac from the US Apple Store because of the way Apple sell their products. Macs and associated software are localised, so that the bundle of software one gets with a new iMac in the US is quite different from that offered in the UK package, not to mention other issues such as voltage, power leads used, guarantees, and so on.

I remember back in the early 90s that a lot of UK Apple stores (not official resellers) offered "grey" imports, i.e. Macs sourced from the US for the domestic market. They had US versions of System 7 on them, together with 110 voltage and so on. In addition, warranties and the like were not valid. Not an ideal way to buy a Mac.

But I appreciate your frustration -- I feel it too!


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## pbmac (May 13, 2002)

Oh - and another:

Paragon:

When you buy an Amazon book in Denmark, it gets sent out from the Denmark subsidiary (even if it's an english book). However, if you want to buy a Mac from the online US Apple store, they will have to send it from the US = HIGH $$$$$$ EXPORT and IMPORT costs (imposed by the US and Denmark/Europe)!!!!! I bought a board game through an online US retailer and had it shipped to me (to germany). Although the game itself only cost $200 (yeah, expensive, but it's a finance boardgame to lean basics of finance) IMPORT and EXPORT came to over $100!!! That's over 50% more!!!!!

That's the effect of IMPORT and EXPORT restrictions.

-pbmac
me


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## Paragon (May 13, 2002)

First of all, pbmac: maybe in Germany you have a three year warranty but not in Denmark. Here you have a one year warranty as in US. Also I'm not talking about $300-$500 difference but $1100! Also, you are mistaken about the amazon book selling. When I ordered it came directly from the US and not a subsidiary, how do I know this. Well I pay a toll for the books when they enter Denmark...also it takes like 5 weeks to get here.

This I will be willing to pay since it can never amount to $1100 extra.

benpoole: I wish they had kept that idea, and as far as I know it's not a problem about the voltage since the mac have a switch where you can set it to 220V instead of 110V. The issue about localization is non-existing since we got OS X. And I would be more than willing to accept an english operating system, I already have that now.

It's just frustration seeing that a lot of companies offer goods online with the ability to ship to another country.


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## Zenzefiloan (May 13, 2002)

Guys I dont know why you are arguing for 1100 USD.

I wanted to buy a powerbook back in August the price in Greece where i live was: 5714 USD whilst the same specifications one in US was 3500!!!

Well what do you think now!!!

I think the price difference is f***k stupid.

That is of course in Greece we have a reseller for Apple products (Rainbow Hellas)

IE if i wanted to get the upgrade from MACOS X to X.1, i could not, because simply the reseller would tell me you havent bought your PB from us.......

Well thats why in Greece there is such a little number of Mac users.

At the end i asked my cousin who lives in US to buy me one there and bring it over to Greece. In US i  got external CD-R for free,carry case free, extra mem free. In Greece i would get f****K all free.

Sorry about the language but it really annoys me the way the Greek reseller does his buisness.


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## nkuvu (May 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by benpoole_
> *But all that happened was we Europeans were told to stop being "socialists" and get our local taxes down.*





> _Originally posted by testuser _
> *It's part of the cost of living in a socialist country. *



That's funny.


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## benpoole (May 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by testuser _
> *It's part of the cost of living in a socialist country. *


Oh, for f*ck's sake -- what did I tell you Paragon??!?


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## gigi (May 13, 2002)

Paragon i agree you that we are being over charged. I live in Ireland,  if i try to buy the cheapest new iMac from the "irish" apple store without tax it cost 1749 euro, which is  1,593.92 USD. 
if you go to the US apple store the same product is 1399 USD....a difference of nearly 200 USD. 
So when you take taxes out of the equation a European Mac is still more expensive than a US Mac.
i think it has more to do with capitalism than socialism


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## Paragon (May 13, 2002)

testuser: please don't call our country a socialist country...obviously you have no idea of what you are talking about, we are and have never been a socialist country. We have been a democracy long before there was anything called the US.

As for your remark about prices, well they are true to some extent but we don't pay 46% more for computer electronics. You can buy a peecee over here for the same price as in the US, but not a mac.

As gigi says, if you take away the tax and leave only the product there still is a big difference in the price for a mac. As I stated earlier I have bought books in the US which get taxed when they enter the country. Now this tax is higher here than in the US, but as much as $1100.

Now I have finished my ranting.


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## neutrino23 (May 13, 2002)

The situation is similar in the US. Apple is very honest (naive?) about charging sales tax. Many mail-order firms only charge sales tax if they are forced to. Therefore, it is usually easy to find a retailer located in another state willing to sell to you without charging sales tax. Near San Francisco that tax is about 8%. Imagine, on a G4 tower and cinema display costing about $5,000 that is a $400 penalty for ordering from Apple. I suspect that in the case of the EU there are shippers in the US willing to help you avoid local taxes which makes for a huge price difference (though maybe not all of it).


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## roger (May 14, 2002)

gigi brings up an interesting point because I believe taxes are out of the equation in Ireland. I believe that the Apple store trades out of the Shannon duty free zone which 



> Ireland also has the Shannon Airport Customs Free Zone. Any foreign or domestic company may apply for a license to conduct trading operations in the zone, provided its operations in some way contribute to the development or use of Shannon Airport. Companies granted permission to operate in the Shannon Airport Customs Free Zone are taxed at a rate of 10% through December, 2005.



When I purchase my Mac directly from Apple it was shipped from Shannon. This means that the price increase on Macs in Ireland is due to market pressures and not socialist measures.

R.


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## lonny (May 14, 2002)

Testuser,
how about some research before saying something like that?
Europe does not equal socialism!

Prices for Macs in Europe are just about the same everywhere.
And this is true now more than ever, since most european countries use the same currency, which incidentally is called EURO, not EURO-DOLLAR as americans call it!!!

Prices here are too hight. Full stop.


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## fryke (May 14, 2002)

Hmm... I'm very pro EU, although Switzerland isn't part of it (yet). But our prices seem to be much more reasonable than, say, Germany's. Compare:

iMac SuperDrive:
CH: 2249 EUR
DE: 2666 EUR

Both include taxes. Maybe it's better *not* to be part of something, sometimes... *sigh*

US price is 1728 EUR *without* taxes.


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## alexachucarro (May 14, 2002)

Socialist Europe (as the Americans have been educated to believe) launch a preemptive strike against the states. 12 missles launched

Facist America (as we're led to believe) retaliates by firing 12'000 missles but they all miss and hit, Russia, China and Japan. China strikes back but the missles fall short and Wales, UK is wiped off the face of the planet.

A few Welsh terrorists located in Bethnal Green, London decide to make suicide runs for the far east, but get stuck in The Dukes Head and 'sing-away' the English scum.

Switzerland stays neutral (buts accepts a few backhanders to help fund its ??... whatever it needs all that gold for) (oh a Fryke i'm all for Switzerlands position, if I had my way I'd pull out of the EU. I'm all for open borders and trade, but taking orders from Belgian Facists? Not my thing)

As the world tears itself apart, French Canadians take it upon themselves to take over the East and erect a huge brick wall to separate the two sides. But Quebec stays a West Canada City....

Haven't we seen something like this before?

Now I'll just sit back and enjoy......


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## ksv (May 14, 2002)

By date, there are actually _no_ socialistic governments in West Europe.
Denmark is definitly not a socialist country. Norway isn't, either, even though we pay 24% sales/import tax, and we have a much higher tax level on absolutely everything. USA is a republic, and there are clear differences between the US government and any European government. The US economy system is based on losers and winners. "If you aren't a successful person, it's your own fault". There are rich people, middle-class people, lower-class people and poor people. There are more rich people in the US than in Europe, and as a result of that there are of course more poor people, too. That's a matter of fact. In our modern capitalism based regime, money is practically everything. In USA it's even worse. If you don't have money, your children are sent to the chapest, worse school and get much poorer education than they would get if you were rich. If you get cancer, and you don't have money, you're dead.

Capitalism is a sign of limited human intelligence factor. Capitalism has come to stay.


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## rezba (May 14, 2002)

Well, socialist or not, or, to admit the polite distinction made by the CIA : living in a country that is "in the midst of transition, from an economy that featured extensive government ownership and intervention to one that relies more on market mechanisms", as the agency describes France (an economist could give just a reciprocal definition of the US economy, "in transition from and idealistic market mechanisms based economy to an extensive government intervention one", see agriculture issues, for instance!), 
the fact is that Apple charge non-us customers a little bit more, but not always...

Talking taxes free (which is the case for me, I buy my machines from my company), a ibook 500 costs, in apple stores,

1199 US$ (1328) in US, 
1281 US$ (1899 Can$, 1348) in Canada, 
1263 US$ (1399) in France, 
1271 US$ (2048 CHF, 1407) in Switzerland,
1232 US$ (1365, 851£) in UK .
Taxes are a big part of the difference of the "real price", but the machines are still a little bit less expensive in Cupertino's country. Transport fees are not a issue, as this peculiar ibook is setup in Taipei, I think.
Marketing costs seem to be responsible of this small differences. But our canadian cousins are finally the most charged apple fans in this panel.

But most of all, this peculiar ibook costs, in the japanese apple store, 1166 US$, which is, I think, the lowest "tax free" price in all apple stores..., and  1526 US$ in Australia, which seems to be the most expensive country.
What do you think about that ?


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## Paragon (May 14, 2002)

testuser: you are correct on one thing, namely that we pay more in taxes than the  average US citizen. As for calling us a socialist country I'm gonna have to say that you (again) don't know what you talking about. A socialist country is a country where the chief industries and natural ressources are owned and manages by the state or public body and wealth is equally distributed.
This has never been the case in Denmark, and just because you have been here doesn't mean that your statement is true. I'm sorry if I sound "angry" but as you can see I'm from Denmark and I don't like it when someone spreads wrong information. Sorry testuser but I' kind of touchy regarding my country.

ksv: I can only agree with completely. The reason for our higher taxes is so for example anyone can get an operation free and everyone has free medical care.


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## ksv (May 14, 2002)

Actual prices may also have with the country's economy compared to others to do.
Right now, 1 USD is 8,35 NOK, which means the bottom-of-the-line iBook currently costs 1351 USD here without taxes. A couple of months ago, when an USD was about 9,1 NOK, it would've cost 1239 USD, because Apple don't change their prices as long as nothing major happens.

I don't think price differences have with advertisements to do. USA is, as far as I know, the only country with Apple TV ads. I've only seen one Norwegian Apple ad in my life; a full-page iMac advertisement in the local newspaper in 1998. That costs around 30000 USD. What does a 30 second ad on a major american TV station cost?


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## pbmac (May 14, 2002)

paragon wrote:
--------------------
 testuser: please don't call our country a socialist country...obviously you have no idea of what you are talking about, we are and have never been a socialist country. We have been a democracy long before there was anything called the US. 
---------------------

Hi Paragon:

1. socialism does not exclude democracy
2. What does the US have to do with our discussion?

Paragon, you may want to inform yourself regarding the meaning or "socialism":

In a broader sense, the term socialism is often used loosely to describe economic theories ranging from those that hold that only certain public utilities and natural resources should be owned by the state to those holding that the state should assume responsibility for all economic planning and direction. In the past 150 years there have been innumerable differing socialist programs. For this reason socialism as a doctrine is ill defined, although its main purpose, the establishment of cooperation in place of competition remains fixed.

I am German and live in Germany. Our current "ruling" party is the SPD (Socialist Party of Germany). This, however, does not mean that everything is owned by the government - nor does it mean that we strive to become a soviet-modelled nation... the thought of it is chilling.

We are a full-blown democracy with capitalism (free markets,....) combined with socialsm (greater well-fare, higher taxes,....) at our core. 

- matthias
- pbmac


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## Paragon (May 14, 2002)

testuser: our government does not manage either of the industries you mention, although the railroad and the telephone was years ago. It's a complicated matter since they were companies who had to make a profit but if they didn't they were given money by the state so we would be able to take the train or make a telephone call.
I agree with you on subject of there being a sliding scale between socialist and capitalist. Therefore I will say that Danes do not see themselves as a purely capitalist country since we obviously have elements of socialism in our country.

pbmac: about the US issue, it was just a statement that had nothing to do with my initial question, this whole discussion has taken a wrong turn. I have no excuse fore bringing that into the discussion. My vanity got the best of me.


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## ksv (May 14, 2002)

The average american's view at scandinavian countries is totally skewed. Some thinks we still use horses instead of tractors, and some thinks Denmark is a socialist regime. It's much the same thing.
In Norway, a country which is actually more on the "socialist" side than Denmark, the main telephone company, transport, entertainment centers etc. are supported by the State, but not fully owned. Hospitals are the counties' responsibility, schools the cities', but they are fully financed by the State. Poor/unemployed/invalid people get support from the State, but do of course not have nearly as good economy as average, working people.
Still, there are clear differences in people's wages. Leaders get far much more paid than normal employees, and there are hundreds of millionaires in Norway. Norway is not a socialist country, Denmark is even less (at least with the current government). Also, the parties' titles don't always describe the party's politics. E.g "Arbeiderpartiet", or "The Workers Party" in english, is actually more conservative than radical/socialistic.


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## lonny (May 15, 2002)

Ok, it may not be the case with you guys, but americans tend to have a wrong idea of what Europe is.
Granted, I don't know much about differences among different US states, but at least I don't comment on them.

Do you know that the most common form of government in Scandinavian countries (and Europe for that matter) is monarchy?

In Italy for instance the State doesn't own practically anything.
Sure, we still have a party with the word "communist" in its name, but that doesn't mean anything.
We pay 19% taxes, and that still makes prices way too high.

It's all about marketing:

In the US the Mac is for the people: schools, etc.
In Europe is for professionals.

This needs to be readdressed.


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## benpoole (May 15, 2002)

Monarchy doesn't necessarily = government, but I take your point.



You also make a good point with regards marketing. Macs are not recognised as educational or professional machines in the UK at all, they are still associated with "trendy" graphic design shops and the like.

Apple's marketing here does nothing to dispel that. We get the very occasional Apple commercial, which is just an American one, so there's no marketing cost there beyond buying the airtime!

In terms of taxes, import duty etc., machines bought in the UK always used to come from an assembly point in Ireland. I don't know about now, seeing as I haven't bought anything from Apple for 4 years, but you see what I'm saying.

We have VAT in the UK on computers, and this is rated at 17.5%. The socialist British government (that's a *joke* by the way) does not impose reams of taxation on Macs; Apple simply choose to charge what they charge. Why else do you think they have such massive cash reserves?

It's a shame, because in addition to the preconception re Apple users detailed above, even quite IT-literate people I talk to just assume that Macs cost a bomb, and cannot compete with PCs on _any_ level. When I show the OS X specs to fellow programmers, they are always impressed though. 

This is all down to a long history of little / badly targeted marketing here. Apple just always seem to preach to the converted, and charge us a premium for it.

I just don't understand why people jump on us European / Asia-Pac "whingers" and defend Apple. Sure, they're making money out of us and that's their right, all power to 'em, but it would be nice to be able to afford a new Mac...


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## lonny (May 15, 2002)

plus.. you're right! I forgot about the facilities in Ireland...


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## benpoole (May 15, 2002)

Yeah OK, but why do you keep on ignoring the fact that if I buy a Mac here in the UK it is *not* imported directly from the US... so what has the EU tariff you mention got to do with anything?

In fact, for setting up plants in Ireland, Apple would have received tax *concessions* and other benefits from Britain / the EU.

No-one's being "hostile," don't be so sensitive. We're just having a discussion about how annoying it is that Macs are more expensive in certain countries, together with Apple's naff marketing in territories outside of the US.


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## ksv (May 15, 2002)

That's right, the Scandinavian governments are democratic, although we have king families. The only thing the king does here, anyway, is to market Norway and ensure good deals on fish export. E.g. large companies, and even other countries, are very proud to be visited by a king. So, practically, king families in Scandinavian democracies are only marketing channels. They have nothing to do with the government, they have no governing power at all. I'd be glad to get rid of them, they're wasting enormous resources we could've used on schools, hospitals etc instead. 

So, a 100-250 $ difference isn't noticeable?

I'm not trying to be hostile, but saying european countries are socialistic is like saying USA is anarchistic.


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## SuperMatt (May 15, 2002)

Well, unfortunately, I don't see things changing too much.  The U.S. just put a MASSIVE tariff on imported steel.  Granted, other countries caused the problem by over-producing steel they couldn't use and then selling it BELOW COST to the U.S. to get rid of and to kill U.S. steel companies (aka "dumping").  Those countries did nothing to stop it.  It's also true that in many of those countries, the wage is much lower than our wages.  It's only now that our government is trying to do something about it.  The problem is:  It's too little, too late.  All this will accomplish is keep the remaining U.S. steel businesses afloat for a few more years.  At the same time, it makes European countries upset and will probably lead to more tariffs against the U.S.  In short, don't blame Apple for the high prices... vote for candidates that support free trade.  I'm behind the American worker, but the way that unions and industry lobby washington for special treatment so they can make more money goes too far sometimes.


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## gigi (May 15, 2002)

testuser said "plus E.U. tariffs on goods imported outside of E.U. (varies between 5-14%)
10% -> $240"



just a quick reply as i am running out the door ....all european mac are made in Ireland (15 minutes from my house in fact...i worked there myself). so the "EU tariff" testuser is talking about on imported good does not apply.


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## ksv (May 15, 2002)

Not all european Macs are built in Ireland. All iMacs and iBooks are built in Taiwan, I'm unsure about the PowerBooks, but all PowerMacs are built in Ireland. Yes, all, also the ones sold in the US. So shipping costs are definitly not a reason for higher prices in UK and Ireland than in USA, as mentioned earlier. I'm pretty sure that Apple simply is charging more in Europe than in the US because they sell less Macs in Europe, as a result of poor marketing. Why not just call Apple to get a confirmation of this?

testuser, no, as a socialist myself, I know what I'm talking about, and associating socialism with leninism and marxism belongs to the capitalists.
In Norway, around 50 % actually vote for parties which call themselves "anti-socialistic" and capitalistsic, around 30-35 % for more neutral parties, and the rest for partes which call themselves socialistic. Which means that Norway is 15-20 % socialistic, and that we have around 15-20 % socialists in the parlament. The government is controlled by the three parties which are definitly not average socialistic. Denmark has even less socialists in the parlament, as far as I know.

Don't base your view at different government forms on your experiences from Civilization II.


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## rezba (May 15, 2002)

well, lets stop with arguing about socialism new and old, and capitalism dark or soft, or I open a thread in the Herve's bar and grill as the political science teacher I am  
No, I was kidding, and the discussion was, in a ethnological way, interesting.

Back to prices.
Talking with my apple reseller, here's what he told me :
Prices in apple stores around the world differs (talking tax free, of course) from the apple's reseller network in each country.
The more you got apple resellers in a country, the less the price is at the relevant-national apple store. 
AppleStore are a big issue in the apple market, and apple resellers don't really love it. At the beginning, apple thought about selling macs everywhere at the same price. This was impossible for dealers, who could not sell machines at the same price because of stock values and things like that. So Apple decided to set different prices to allow their dealer's network carrying on, and not to  kill their precious network. That's why Apple is a responsible company.

For instance, prices in France are quite low compared to E.U., because, as it has been said, macs are hugely sold in my country. We also have beautiful TV ads at prime time, ksv, and  benefit from rebates, Test, but not at the same time as you. Still market strategy.

And, at least, prices increase following the gross national product per inhabitant. This may explain why the biggest complain come from Norway and Danemark, may  be ? But this is also the reason why our scandinavian cousins don't share Euro with us, no ?

Just a word for you, Test : for long now, many european country are ruled by what has been called by both european and american academics : 
_social democraty_. Roosevelt was a precursor of that "middle way". He failed to build an economy based on market AND welfare-state, because the announced world war II gave capitalism a new breath after the big depression. But we are getting far from our dreaming machine... Or may be not ?


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## rezba (May 15, 2002)

Test, you don't have to apologize, I like political discussions. Because thinking about political issues is my job, and because I'm french... (we founded politics, you know...).

And this is not so far from the rest, in fact. I mean, the fact that we are using macs, not PC, is not totally  neutral in political terms.

Umberto Eco wrote a small and funny essay, few years ago, about the PC vs Mac religion war, translating it into protestant and catholic terms.

I'm not sure I have the same ability to see catholicism as fun as the italians can, but Eco's text is partly true. I finally find and english version. Here it is :

Catholic Macs vs Protestant PCs 

Of course, PCs still remain the bad guys at the end...


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## Paragon (May 15, 2002)

Testuser: I think yor definition of communism and socialism differs from mine. I think that some of the difference between communism and socialism is that under socialism the state does not control ever means of production and every ressourse. Where as socialism subsidises certain industries and other areas so they can maintain a certain level of operation.

I can only agree with you about the fact that we in Scandinavia are more a "socialist'" than in the US. This in my opinion is not a bad thing, for example everyone can get a college education and you even get paid around $520 a month for doing it.

My initial question was that I could not understand why I had to pay some much for a PowerMac. By reading this thread a lot of the reason to this has become apparent. Although I would still argue that we are paying a lot more for a Mac than the rest of you (US).

rezba: is this true what you say about the price being dependent on the GNP? If so why?

 Also thank you for your insights to you all. It has been most educational.


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## rezba (May 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Paragon _
> *is this true what you say about the price being dependent on the GNP? If so why?
> *



Everything is just a little bit more expensive in Danemark than in France. Just because you can afford it. Differences are more relevant with Norway, for instance, but this country has one of the highest average income on earth. 
In absolute value, a car is more expensive in Norway than in France, where cars are more expensive than in Spain. But in relative value, you need to work less in Norway to buy a car than you need it in Spain or in France. 
This is not true for all products, of course. And market-based variations (those that explain that computers are very cheap in Japan, for instance), are also relevant. 
But GNP explains variations for common goods, from a country to another. E.U. is a strong tool to smooth that, and euro a stronger one.
Finally, i would buy the  first Xserve model at 3599  (off taxes) in my national Apple Store, you will get it at 3604 with today's DKK rating (ekskl moms). But Testuser still will get his at 3290 ! It's disgusting, but I'd better be here than there.
Long live to our social democracies !


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## Zenzefiloan (May 15, 2002)

Well after i posted here my opinion about the Greek seller of MACs i have some news, the next day they made an anouncement changing their price policy. They are still relatively expensive but i think that now their prices seem more resonable. 

i will try and calculate their prices in USD so that    i try and see if they are better than other European countries.

All prices quoted below are for top of the range models:

iMac G4/800MHz 256/60GB/DVD-R/CD-RW/32MB VRAM/56K Modem:2503 Euros

iBook 14.1"TFT/ 600MHz/256K L2/256MB/20GB/DVD-ROM/CD-RW/FW/VO/56K MODEM (COMBO) 2395 Euro

Macintosh Powerbook G4 15.2 TFT 800MHz/512MB bs/L3cache 1MB/40G/FW/CD-RW/DVD/Gigabit Ethernet/56K Modem/Airport Card (COMBO)4104 Euro

Power Macintosh G4 Minitower Dual 1GHz/L2 256K/ L3 2MB /512MB SDRAM/80GB HD /DVD-R & CD-RW/GBitEnet/64MBVR 4012 Euro

On the prices above tax of 16% is not included.

Well how do these compare with other EU countries?


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## lonny (May 16, 2002)

rezba,
thanks for the Umberto Eco link!
I'll try and look for the italian version as well!


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## benpoole (May 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by rezba _
> *Test, you don't have to apologize, I like political discussions. Because thinking about political issues is my job, and because I'm french... (we founded politics, you know...).*


Eh, didn't the Greeks have something to do with "founding" politics??


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## rezba (May 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by benpoole _
> *
> Eh, didn't the Greeks have something to do with "founding" politics??
> 
> *



Yes, of course. They founded democracy, even if it was not really what we use to call democracy now. Modern democracy, in a sens, has been founded in UK, with the Bill of Rights. France hasn't even founded the concept of Republic, because Romans did it a lonf time before. But french people think of themselves as the country that gave to the all world the modern conception of freedom and democracy. They think the values of revolution are universal. And, in a sense, they are sufficiently proud to bring a delinquant and a fascist at the final turn of their presidential elections, and carrying on giving lessons to others. I was just kidding about it.


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## Zenzefiloan (May 16, 2002)

Yeap Greeks founded democracy !!!!


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## ksv (May 16, 2002)

Sorry, my Civilization II joke was just to symbolize that politics aren't always as easy as on computer games 

The fact is that Norway wouldn't function if was as capitalistic as the US, and had as low taxes. The only two large industries in Norway are fish and oil export. Norway has about 1 % of the worldwide oil market. Not much, but enough to feed Norway's money reserves with billions of dollars every year. None of these industries are owned or directly controlled by the State, but have a high tax rate. If taxes here were as low as in the US, Norwegian economy would be back to as it was in the 50's. And with today's population, the whole nation would've collapsed.

Currently very many companies owned by the State are being sold to privateers. Hence, Norwayis not a socialistic country.

Norwegian politics are too complex for me to explain in detail, so I recommend you to take a look at http://www.odin.dep.no/odin/engelsk/ 

I'm not complaining about Mac prices here, BTW. They are expensive, and there is a difference between US and Norwegian prices. It's mostly related to Apple's bad marketing strategies in non-US countries, I suppose. The average Norwegian PC user doesn't even know what a Mac is, or what Apple Computer is doing. It has also been very hard to get Macs in Norway for a long time. The only "large" Mac reseller in Norway before the internet Apple Store started a couple of months ago, was OfficeLine, and their prices are about 20 % higher than Apple's.
But, what does an internet store help for people without previously having a PC/Mac? We need retail stores.
In my city, which is Norway's 3rd or 4th largest, there is no Mac retailer _at all_!


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## benpoole (May 16, 2002)

Yeah, I live in a massive urban area, about 40 miles from the centre of London in the UK. The population of my borough exceeds 280, 000, yet we have no "consumer-friendly" Apple dealers in the area.

The nearest we get to an Apple dealership is a "PC World" (fellow Brits can groan with me on this one) about 40 minutes' drive away. There's also a business-only graphic design dealership who sell the odd Mac, again around 30 minutes away.

The web-based Apple Store is a good idea, and certainly in the UK is competitive in terms of price, but that shouldn't be the whole story for Pete's sake!

The average joe here in the UK knows what he knows about Apple from seeing lurid iMacs in the background of many TV shows. Take this free product placement away, and there would be just about no perception of Macs here, Apple UK are so woeful in their marketing efforts.


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## changomarcelo (May 16, 2002)

Paragon, if you would like to buy the same computer and the same display in Argentina, you would have to pay 4200 dollars!!

That´s a lot of money, I think it´s a lot for anyone who lives in denmark, USA, China or any country, but imagine that, for me, 4200 dollars means 18 times my monthly income.


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## changomarcelo (May 16, 2002)

New  iMac G4 700 Mhz CDRW: U$D 2320 (U$D 1399 in US)
iMac G4 800 Mhz Superdrive: U$D 3204 (U$D 1900 in US)


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## ropers (May 19, 2002)

What are you on about - look to Hungary! You don't even get Mac OS X there - all they offer is OS 9. Why? An OS X localisation doesn't exist yet! I'd say after one year that's much worse than any surcharge.


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## Gwailo (May 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by pbmac _
> *I have compared German Apple prices to those in the US. Yes - all models are far more expensive (by about $300 - $500) ... Buy the Apple Care set to extend warranty to 3 years and you'll see that you pay just about the difference between German and US prices.*



AppleCare for me, in Canada, was $149 CDN which is about $84 US. Not quite $300-$500.

I was in London last year on a consulting job, and bought an iMac Sage DV+ for someone that cost £750, which is very close to the US price.

All in all however, a 46% discrepancy is unacceptable. Ask someone in the US to buy you one and ship it--no joke!  Heck I'd do it prodiving there weren't any export laws prohibiting it...


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## Paragon (May 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Gwailo _
> *
> 
> AppleCare for me, in Canada, was $149 CDN which is about $84 US. Not quite $300-$500.
> ...



I have thought about this myself...I could probably save a lot of money, even if I had to pay some import tax. Unfortunately I don't know if it's legal...


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## Gwailo (May 19, 2002)

Something else occurs to me: what about government taxes to corporations? I'm not sure about the taxation system in the EU, but I know that they are WAY higher than in NA (with the exception of good old Québec, who are the most taxed )

Capital gains taxes to Apple Europe might be so high that they have to increase their prices to offset that marginal loss.


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## benpoole (May 20, 2002)

Re selling US Macs overseas...

Someone has just sold a top of the range G4 iMac with 768MB RAM etc., a US model, on the UK eBay site for £1,220. It was boxed, as new, and the US guy was responsible for mailing. He has another 5 to sell. THe bids started at £900, and boy was I tempted!

So I guess it _can be_ worthwhile...

A few years ago, when exchange rates were exceptionally good for the £ buying the $, and Macs were even more expensive here, several UK dealerships offered "grey" import Macs... i.e. US-sourced systems, but I note that this seems to have pretty much stopped now.


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## Hypernate (May 20, 2002)

In Australia, on the base model iBook, we pay $550 more than in the US. But hey, we can live with it


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## Nachohat (May 20, 2002)

Well Canada is as socialist as can be.  We pay 50% income tax plus 15% sales tax for a wonderfull grand total of 65% tax!

We still pay more for the same computers.  For example a US Tibook is 2500.  A Canadian TiBook should be 2500*1.5 (exchange rate) = 3750$ Canadian but it is sold for 4000$ so we get ripped off 250$.  I guess Apple has to do this though, because the exchange rates are constantly changing and if the Canadian dollar were to go down by a few percentage points, they would actually be selling it for less then in the states.  At least it's not 1500$ difference though


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## nkuvu (May 20, 2002)

Well here in the US we pay _exactly_ the same as the US prices!  



OK, I'll go have more caffeine...


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## nkuvu (May 20, 2002)

Leave it to testuser to bring reality into my joke...  

I'd be a lot happier with my taxes if they didn't go towards buying $4000 hammers.

That's another (sort of) joke! Don't criticize me for not researching the actual price of hammers for the government! (But it's a _lot_ more than I'd pay...)


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## apb3 (May 22, 2002)

From today's macintouch:

--Kirk McElhearn notes a new Apple promotion: "Word is starting to circulate in Europe about an Apple buy-back promotion. Apple will take old computers and offer from 200 to 400 Euros off a new G4. The Apple Russia site already shows this, but none of the other European sites do yet. It should not be long." --

So you should be able to get a discount soon... If you trade up.


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## lonny (May 22, 2002)

Hey!
The trade up offer is active on the italian website!
It's named "Money and Power": Cool!
Too bad my Mac is too "new" for the offer....  


edit: offer is active throughout Europe now


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## benpoole (May 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by lonny _
> *edit: offer is active throughout Europe now *


Gah! Not in the UK...


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## ksv (May 22, 2002)

Gah! Not in Norway either! This is unfair! 
Heh, does this mean Apple pays just as much for a Performa 5200 as a beige G3? Hah, that rocks


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## apb3 (May 22, 2002)

anyone of my european comrades want to buy my old performa???


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## rezba (Jul 18, 2002)

I'm coming back on this thread, because things have changed a lot since we had this discussion.
In may, I did some small conversions to have an idea of the real differences of prices.
The average difference between the euro zone and the US Apple Store was about 8%.
Today, after the new prices of the MWNY, the differences are above 15%, sometimes 20%!

The Japanese AppleStore, which was the most competitive in May, is at the european level now.

These differences are huge ! And they will get higher as long as Euro will be stronger than dollar. Apple should try to be less patriot sometimes. More than half of its market is out of the US!


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## benpoole (Jul 18, 2002)

And Apple's earnings data moaned about the markets in Europe and Japan specifically...


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## pkollias (Aug 2, 2002)

I know we're not supposed to be on this topic, but I can't help it.

Socialism or varying degrees thereof: 

Whereby any state, government or public institution retains majority ownership or provides majority funding to an institution, public or private, for the greater benefit of society.  In some industries or economic models, the state alters the normal distribution of wealth by market forces with the collection of taxes in the aim of redistributing said monies for the greater good of society. (Health and Public Education) 

Capitalism or varying degrees thereof:
Whereby the notion of the governments function is to provide basic infrastructure for the functioning of the economy and to provide for the defense of the country. Ideally, taxes are collected to fund these efforts and little else. Much greater emphasis is placed on the performance and responsibility of the individual, and monies are, 'permitted' to flow where market forces dictate.

In both instances, one can find exception after exception.

That's an attempt to sum it up.  This is coming from someone who grew up in the Middle East.  I'm not even going to go there.

Still, there's got to be a way for Apple to bring machines in with the same priveleges the peecee makers get.  That or they should try to take some people in Brussels out for a few drinks...

pk


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## hulkaros (Aug 4, 2002)

This one is to correct something that Zenzefiloan posted:
Euro prices across European Union countries while they seem somewhat cheaper than before here in Greece they hide some BIG minuses for us greeks: If someone chooses to buy ANY Mac with the Euro prices then he/she will NOT have Greek language support for the OSes (Classic and/or X) as well as:
-Training support
-Some greek apps for Mac
-Tech support
-Greek updates on any level
-He/she will get his/her Mac almost a month later than the usual delivery time which is 2-4 days...
As you can see, Euro prices in Greece are not THAT good if ANY good at all!

Also, as of 03 Aug 2002 here are some Greek prices (not Euro prices) according to the Apple Reseller here in Greece (Rainbow):
http://www.rainbow.gr/prices/apple.html
-iMac G3/500,128RAM,20GB,CD-ROM = $853 taxes NOT included (cheapest Mac in Greece)
-PowerMac G4/Dual,512RAM,80GB,SuperDrive = $4000 taxes NOT included (one of the most expensive Macs in Greece)
When you ad the taxes on the above prices they become:
-$1007 for iMac
-$4720 for PowerMac

Compare the above prices to the US Apple Store prices:
-iMac G3/600,128RAM,40GB,CD-ROM = $800
-PowerMac G4/Dual,512RAM,80GB,SuperDrive = $3000

Even without taxes on the above prices, the difference is HUGE:
-iMac in US costs $53 less but with HIGHER tech specs
-PowerMac in US costs $1000 less

When you add taxes, the cost goes through the roof! That's why there is a petition for Apple's European pricing scheme here:
www.PetitionOnline.com/EUprices/petition-sign.html?
Go and vote, even you the NONE european Macfellas! After all, it is only some typing and clicking thing, no harm done... Go-go-go, NOW


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## Oscar Castillo (Aug 16, 2002)

Does Apple even have fabs outside the US?  I'd think they would but I never looked into it.  That would make things extrememly expensive if they didin't.


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## scope (Aug 17, 2002)

In Maryland, there is a 5% Sales tax...that means on the "ultimate" rig, I get to pay almost $250 more for living here...so what do I do?  I haul my ass and hour up to a reseller in Dover, Delaware....why, you may ask, do I do that?  For a few reasons.  One, Delaware sales tax is 0%.  That means if something says "$1.00" it means $1, not $1.05.  Two, they tend to include monitors for lower prices when you buy the computer.  Three, they are nice people.  Four, why the hell not?  I mean, I like to drive....


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