# Browser Standards: Safari vs. IE



## PXL Transmitter (Jan 16, 2003)

I am not quite sure if browser developers are aware of the ability to change the appearance of form elements with the help of CSS2 declarations.

I especially like and admire the functionality of Internet Explorer for Macintosh and the way it handles CSS specifications in combination with form elements.

IE interprets my CSS2 declarations for manipulating the appearance of form elements very well on my opinion.

I have nearly total control of the appearance of form elements via CSS2 such as:

- Defining exact widths and heights
- Defining exact border widths
- Defining border colors
- Defining padding space
- Defining background color
- Defining text color
- Defining font size
- Defining font family

- Some older versions of Internet Explorer made it even possible to specifiy a 2D or 3D appearance of form elements. (I am no longer able to achieve the same function with the current version of Internet Explorer)

All these CSS2 specifications are VERY useful and make my life much easier as a Web Designer to create and produce challenging web pages which make use of many form elements for the creation and develoment of customer form pages, basket information and even Web Site navigations.

The ability to change the appearance of form elements via CSS2 attributes are very helpful to transform and adapt my graphical user interface to an existing corporate identity.

Microsoft Internet Explorer is currently the one and only browser developer who managed to offer me all these appearance capabilites to change the appearance of form elements. I believe there is currently no other browser application on the market which offers the same consistant appearance behaviour such as Internet Explorer.

I am personally not very happy to have the same "boldy" look and feel of form buttons, dropdown menues, checkboxes, radio buttons and form textfields on EVERY web page I create and having no influence at all.

I would suggest to keep the appearance of form elements under "Safari" as neutral, as scalable, as customizable and as functional as ever possible.

Speed is one thing, the consistant pursuance of browser standards in compliance with the w3c is another thing ...


Thank you very much in advance,


graphically yours,


PXL Transmitter


----------



## fryke (Jan 17, 2003)

Can you give some links for examples I can test?


----------



## Mars (Jan 17, 2003)

Web Form elements that are uniform with the OS's GUI (Aqua!) and that are uniform between all sites dramatically increases usability for most users. Consistency in interface makes for more reliable and predictable functionality from the end users point-of-view.

Apple is doing a Good Thing by using Aqua widgets for form elements.

Mars


----------



## fryke (Jan 17, 2003)

Oh, and yes, of course. I wanted to add that, but wanted to first see those strange CSS2 transformed form elements in IE. 

Monotony is good in Interface Design.


----------



## PXL Transmitter (Jan 20, 2003)

I did ask for a solution and not for a bad excuse. Your quote is a standard answer I receive from developers in concern of my question. If OS developers were clever enough they would have paid attention to this aspect/problem by the time they started developing their graphical user interface for a modern and functional OS.

My proposal:

I would suggest to use the standard "Aqua" form elements in Safari as long as no CSS attributes have been specified.

However, if CSS2 attributes are used to specifiy the look and feel of form elements, I would suggest to the Safari developer team to implement their "own" customizable form elements into Safari in order to make their "Non-Aqua" compatible form elements "Web-Standard" compatible.

Point. End of discussion.

graphically yours,


PXL Transmitter







> _Originally posted by Mars _
> *Web Form elements that are uniform with the OS's GUI (Aqua!) and that are uniform between all sites dramatically increases usability for most users. Consistency in interface makes for more reliable and predictable functionality from the end users point-of-view.
> 
> Apple is doing a Good Thing by using Aqua widgets for form elements.
> ...


----------



## fryke (Jan 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PXL Transmitter _
> *I would suggest to use the standard "Aqua" form elements in Safari as long as no CSS attributes have been specified.
> 
> However, if CSS2 attributes are used to specifiy the look and feel of form elements, I would suggest to the Safari developer team to implement their "own" customizable form elements into Safari in order to make their "Non-Aqua" compatible form elements "Web-Standard" compatible.
> ...



Well, maybe the end of your points. But that's exactly what, in my opinion, Apple and other browser developers shouldn't do.

Apple is very strict with their HI-Guidelines. And bigger and stranger Aqua buttons are not part of those.

You should still give us a link to a page that makes use of that feature, so we can look at it with different browsers.


----------



## Cat (Jan 21, 2003)

Try the site in his signature: http://www.pixel-industries.com

It really looks very nice, but not very functional to me... As art it wouldn't be bad, but as interface... well, it's more "the art of visual distraction" (no offense intended  )


----------



## Pengu (Jan 21, 2003)

Um... Yeah... i think that guy has seen one of the "Think Different" banners somewhere, and he's never worked properly since.... did anyone find any links other than to email him, and to goto the page with the funky round thing with +, = and - signs accross it??

Pengu


That site is really freakin me out... the second page makes me think of Blue-Prints for the Death Star


----------



## TommyWillB (Jan 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PXL Transmitter _
> *...Speed is one thing, the consistant pursuance of browser standards in compliance with the w3c is another thing ...*


 Just because the w3c declares something a standards does not mean it might not be stupid...

I don't think that every standard must be followed... Maybe we need some way of identifying the core functions that truely are useful and manditory...


----------



## boi (Jan 22, 2003)

i don't think Apple's GUI standards should override the designer's standards of the website. it's okay when concerning applications on the OS, but Apple should have NO say in how my web page looks.
besides, those big bulky buttons and forms throw some graphical tables out of alignment.
this is such a big deal to me, as a web designer, that i've flirted with the idea to move back to windows because of it. seeing what everyone else sees is very important as a web designer, believe it or not.
Virtual PC will have to do, though.


----------



## boi (Jan 22, 2003)

ps- personal insults and attacks on his art are not arguments to his very valid points.

i thought the mac was supposed to be the designer's choice anyway.


----------



## fryke (Jan 22, 2003)

if _you_ switch to windows because of it, your pages won't look any better on my Mac, right? 

Ever since the first browser wars, web designers had the problem of different browsers and their respective standards-compliance. We live with it. We adapt. Or we lose.


----------



## PXL Transmitter (Jan 28, 2003)

If the Godfather of Apple Computer Inc. Mr. Steve Jobs himself claims his new Safari Web Browser will support full standards such as CSS1, CSS2, DHTML etc. at Macworld Expo in SF, I want him to keep his word ... nothing more ...

Otherwise, the only man I have seen on the stage at Macworld Expo in San Franciso was nothing less than one of those "new economy marketing guys" who is trying to sell me "a best of" as "the big apple" ... in clear words ... a big bubble ...

If so, I can only repeat the words of the president of the United States Mr. Bush who recently said: " I don´t live in a bubble".

my anser:

... me neither ...

I believe the fundamental function of a web browser is to display a web interface which can consist of a very sophisticated and complex application itself. I am not very keen on adapting my website design interfaces to their OS X Aqua Interface so that my "internet application" works conformely with their operating system.

A web browser is an independent application which should absolutely NOT depend on the OS platform itself. Therefore, web browsers strictly have to follow certain standards to fulfill the demands of a very wide user community.

I will NOT develop web sites in the near future with a big banner on my web site which says ...

" For Switchers Only! "


graphically yours,


PXL Transmitter


----------



## Arden (Feb 10, 2003)

I believe Safari should have an option (like its big brothers, IS & NS, have for fonts, colors, style sheets, etc.) to allow the page to specify button looks or to override such.  Think about it: how good would this site look if you overrid its specified fonts, colors, style sheets, etc. with your own?  (Answer: pretty crappy.)  I just wish Safari would display the buttons on my email site (www.mail.com-pretty obvious but highly overlooked) with the correct LABELS.  I ended up sending a reply to everyone who had received the original message (a lot of people) because I forgot which button was "Reply" and which was "Reply All" (they were mislabeled).  This was Safari's fault, not Mail.com's, because IE displayed it correctly.

On another note, I don't really like www.pixel-industries.com.  It gives no real information without having to click 2 levels deep, the text is hard to read, and it doesn't adapt to my screen size of 832x624-I had to maximize my window to read the buttons at the bottom.  Also, the empire page is way too wide for me to read, and the graphical text is too small for a site too big.  And he still hasn't given us an example of his custom form elements.

Also, it says, in 3 round consecutive buttons, "- = +".  What does this mean?  Negative equals positive?  Black equals white?  Evil equals good?  This completely breaks down my sense of reality!  That means Windows equals Mac!


----------



## fryke (Feb 10, 2003)

You think too black & white here, arden. 

But back to the topic: I also hope that Safari will be as standards compliant (or more) as IE or mozilla when it's going to be final. But MUCH more important is that Safari by itself is a good user experience, and while those form elements might matter to 0.1% of the internet population, it doesn't for the rest. There are more obvious CSS errors to be fixed first, and Apple's coders are at it, which I highly appreciate.


----------



## BitWit (Feb 10, 2003)

Im all for customization of form elements with CSS.
Why? because if you can code input buttons that look they way you want them to, you dont have to add all the extra code needed to make an image have the same functionality...not to mention the image dependency makes a page less portable than one that has all the interface elements self-contained.

I think competent designers can make form elements match the look of thier site without making them unintuitive, so I want this ability in all browsers.


----------



## TommyWillB (Feb 10, 2003)

My print copy of MacWorld says that Safari is based on the Linux Konqueror...


----------



## PXL Transmitter (Feb 11, 2003)

I would like to empathize the following aspect.

As soon as form elements are customized via CSS2 to change their look and feel, I believe these website elements have more a function. This topic is not about "design only" purposes.

When I colorize a dropdown/popup menue for example, the same form element has a very special function ... for website navigation purposes.

Just to give you a very simple example.

Besides, I wish to make websites in the near future which function on many platforms. I do not see any reason why Apple should try to change standards which have already been stated just beacuse of the fact that their GUI of OS X does not allow these standards.

This is not about "look and feel" nor about "my website is better than yours".

I believe there are many many sites and resources on the web which give you a very precise view and description of customizable form elements. I am not wasting my time to deliver you a "how-to-solution" on a silver tray. Besides, I do not support lazybones.


graphically yours,


PXL Transmitter


----------



## Arden (Feb 11, 2003)

So, PXL Transmitter, where are the *EXAMPLES*?  You keep talking about all these hypothetical sites without actually showing anything.  Let's see a working site that actually USES your custom form elements, rather than you just complain about them and not have anything to back it up.


----------



## genehack (Feb 13, 2003)

I love Safari.... B U T-
any text grabbing features are really sh...t compared to IE.
In IE you can clone anything from anywhere-not so in Safari!!  :-(mad:


----------



## masmit (Feb 23, 2003)

Ironically, I can't login to this board with Safari, but I can with IE5.2


----------



## edX (Feb 23, 2003)

must be you and not safari cause i'm logged in just fine with it. might have to do with your cookie prefs. in fact it has worked from the day of release. i posted here from mwsf using safari. obviously alot of other people are using it here as well.  could be you've gotten too picky about what you'll allow and what you won't.


----------



## masmit (Feb 23, 2003)

Ah. I'll have a look at my cookies...


----------

