# Good morning Baghdad! <-----



## PowermacG4_450 (Mar 17, 2003)

todays weather in baghdad? 

2,000 degrees! lol. 

get it? 

Ok, bad joke mabe? Get over it!

God bless america and our troops! Pray for them.... their defending OUR asses after all! OUR freedom!


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## habilis (Mar 17, 2003)

AMEN BROTHER!


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## JetwingX (Mar 18, 2003)

well you guys are just asking for more terrorists to attack us


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## symphonix (Mar 18, 2003)

I find it tasteless that people can make jokes about a war that will kill many innocent people, and leave many more homeless and starving.

Iraq's population is more than 50% children under 12 (due to the number of adults killed in the previous conflict, over 200,000) who weren't even born when last the American's bombed their country. They have been suffering under UN imposed sanctions and an oppressive regime for 12 years.

Saddam is a villain, and he has rorted the oil-for-food scheme to obtain weapons. But if you think this will be a clean, efficient war to change the regime and will not result in civilian casualties, you're fooling yourself. If you think US troops will not use terror and fear to impose their power on Iraq, then you're putting a little too much faith in your government. 

To make jokes about it only shows how cheaply you value the lives of the people there, and that is why these people hate us. They hate us because we would sacrifice thousands of them in the name of security.


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## toast (Mar 18, 2003)

*Let the body bags' dance begin !*

Thanks for feeding the terrorists, guys. I can't even understand how this thread has not been censored for open racism. Anyway, here's the Iraqi version of your posts. Check it, it's great fun:

_Today's height of Twin Towers ?
2 feet ! LOL. Get it ? Bad joke, maybe. Get over it !

Allah bless Iraq and those crazy Al Qaeda terrorists ! Pray for them... they're defending OUR asses after all! OUR freedom!

Bismillah brothers !_

Disclaimer: I don't think a word of this italics stuff. That was just a way to show how patriotism is stupid and revertable.


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## Giaguara (Mar 18, 2003)

Watch what you say guys...

This is an *international* board - so remember (as Toast points out) that not everyone here is from the USA. Don't go to racistic jokes or arguments. 
Even the "God bless America" when you have "Bomb Iraq!" on the same post  is that .. Even if most of us here are in or from the US, there are Mac users (and other human beings) that live in the Middle East too.

God / Higher however you want to call it bless the World.


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## obi-wan kenobi (Mar 18, 2003)

> _symphonix was sane enough to say: _
> *I find it tasteless that people can make jokes about a war that will kill many innocent people, and leave many more homeless and starving.
> 
> Iraq's population is more than 50% children under 12 (due to the number of adults killed in the previous conflict, over 200,000) who weren't even born when last the American's bombed their country. They have been suffering under UN imposed sanctions and an oppressive regime for 12 years.
> ...



ah, the voice of reason. thank you. amen to that.


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## PowermacG4_450 (Mar 18, 2003)

PRAY FOR PEACE - FIGHT FOR FREEDOM 

Well said.


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## edX (Mar 18, 2003)

at what point do you plan to join the fighting artie?


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## obi-wan kenobi (Mar 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by edX _
> *at what point do you plan to join the fighting artie?  *



probably the same time as all the other "heroes" like bush, powell, rumsfeld etc.: never. 
why fight when you can send in the cannon fodder?


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## Zammy-Sam (Mar 18, 2003)

God, Powermac, is this really what you think? 
Let me tell you something in (how I think) your way of understanding things:
USA will raise the anger of many nations! Even germany and lot of other european nations. And US is far too weak to war against everyone that is "thinking different". You think to know what is good and bad and to have the power AND the right to judge.
Well, I doubt this...
Now to my own point of view:
I think this whole thing became a game of image. Saddam won't give up cause he doesn't want to show weakness and same to the US trying to show all the world how powerful they are and that they do whatever they feel like.
Where did their so strongly claimed democracy go?
Everything got so childish, that my solution to all this got childish too: let's just send Bush and Saddam to a lonely island and let them talk, war or do whatever they want. Just leave those innocent ppl. They have to pay the price for this stupid war...


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## symphonix (Mar 18, 2003)

> I think this whole thing became a game of image. Saddam won't give up cause he doesn't want to show weakness and same to the US ...



An interesting point, Zammy. The warmongers have pushed a stance that forces Saddam to stand his ground in order to save his pride.

Compare the current situation to the Cuban Missile Crisis, in which America was potentially threatened by weapons of mass destruction. JFK was able to demand the removal of those weapons _without causing insult to the Cubans, the Russians or their allies._ He "requested" their removal publicly, asking the Russians to remove the weapons in the interests of peace and friendship. The Russians were able to comply without appearing weak, and thus war was averted. In fact, both sides were able to walk away from that crisis a little prouder, and a little better. The fear in those times was as real as the fear today, the threat was even more real (after all, the missiles Saddam has been told to destroy have a range of only 170km, while in the Cuban crisis the missiles were within firing range of most of the US).

In this case, it is clear that the US has not offerred Saddam a way to exit gracefully without losing face. They don't want or expect compliance from Iraq. They want war.


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## Zammy-Sam (Mar 18, 2003)

But why do the US want that war so much? To try out their great new bombs? To show off infront all other nations how powerful they are? These are the only point that would make me agree: war is the only solution.
Everything else... well, no need to say a word more!


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## AppMan (Mar 18, 2003)

The only way to avoid war is if the French show Iraq how to surrender. After all, they are really good at it.


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## acidtuch10 (Mar 18, 2003)

Do we have any members here that are Prior service members or have actually spent time in the middle east?  Just curious to know, everyone seems to have opinions and would like to know if all is just based on what one reads in the media... Or do some speak from experience and influence of actually travelling to the middle east?  ie ... being there, meeting the people, military personel - maybe having a drink with someone from there.. the good and the bad...


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## Gnomo (Mar 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by AppMan _
> *The only way to avoid war is if the French show Iraq how to surrender. After all, they are really good at it. *



I have much been puzzled by the anti-french mentality that seems to have infected the US in recent weeks.  True in recent history the French have lost a few battles.  However, if I recall my history correctly (something most americans seem incapable of) the French come out about even.

France conquered England - causing about 300 years of French to be the official language of England, only to be changed thanks to the Black Plague.

France conquered most of Europe...ever hear of Napolean?  His only downfall was trying to take on the Russians during winter.  Something no one but the Russians has ever successfully done.

France sold us a crap load of land.  Ever hear of the Louisiana purchase?  Without that, we would have had to fight another war with France and frankly we would have gotten our butts kicked.

Also, France kinda saved our @$$es during this little thing called the American Revolution.  So, if you enjoy drinking coffee rather than Tea...you have the French to thank.


I'm very sorry Toast.  I will never understand how a nation that prides itself on Freedom of Speach can get so peaved off to resort to slander and libel when someone dares to disagree with them.


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## MDLarson (Mar 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PowermacG4_450 _
> *todays weather in baghdad?
> 
> 2,000 degrees! lol.
> ...





> _Originally posted by symphonix_
> *I can't even understand how this thread has not been censored for open racism.*


*I can't understand how you claim there is racism in the first place!  *


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## Decado (Mar 18, 2003)

And before that they had charlesmagne, or Charles the great, that made himself emperor of europe in in the year 800-something (or was it 700?).
but enough about that...

What bugs me about this war is that USA isnt threatened by Iraq. And the stupid reason that USA only wants to protect turkey or whatever doesnt hold up. Let the UN decide about that. I dont think anybody thinks the UN would stand idle if Iraq actually started to attack anyone. But they dont attack anyone.
And sure, they are not that fond of USA and they have their reason. But until they do something about it (in a violent way), they dont deserve to be bombed.
Most european countries have faced what they did during world war 2 (sweden for instance let the germans travel through the country to attack Norway and we also supported them with material, nothing i am proud of), it would be interesting if there ever could be an official "hey, we have been wrong but now we have learned from our misstakes" from the government of USA. but nooooo.


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## toast (Mar 18, 2003)

_AppMan_: *The only way to avoid war is if the French show Iraq how to surrender. After all, they are really good at it.*

AppMan, according to your avatar caption, you are an infinite idiot. I do not think you are. I think you are just _limited_. Limited in terms of knowledge. In terms of historical knowledge. I would like to make you count how many times your own country did surrender in only 5 centuries of history. My favorite one is Vietnam and body bags. Oh no, I like the Gulf War syndrome too.

I think you are acting very American: counting the victories and defeats of such or such Nation, that _is_ telling of your general behaviour. "Ah ha ! My nation is richer than yours ! And you lost more battles ! Yeah !" That kind of stuff, after all, is very American. Your President is acting a bit the same: showing off his strength, his scorn for international relatiosn and insitutions. His victory over Iraq, that wil be glorious, am I right ? _Bravo_ in advance.

But Bush forgot one thing: there is no merit in bombing a country. There is no pride, no proudness to feel when you drop shells. Bombs, just as napalm if you see what I mean, are an easy way to get rid of the so-called 'scums of this Earth'.

But talking, that's harder. Yes ! It is. Because you must be _smart_. You must be smart and convincing. You must be legitimate, supported by your people, first, and by others in the world, second. You must be diplomatic, attentive. And on top of that, you must _compromise_, find a consensus, be tolerant towards others. You must be witty and clairvoyant, to understand why such or such people are oppressed, to understand why such or such country has universal free suffrage and why some others are still venerating theocrats.

George W. Bush is none of those last proposals. And that is why he has chosen the only choice offered to his _limited_ mind: go to war. Send bombs. Send fighters (oh, not too many, watch out for the body bags !). This, he knows how to do. Just as his dad did. Just as Saddam did. Finally, he's not so much different from Saddam; he's similarly stubborn, just in some other way. Saddam refuses to go, George refuses not to bomb. And why ? Because they don't know how to act differently from this. Because they are _limited_ people.

If some way, you are _limited_ too, AppMan. As you have nothing more intelligent to oppopse me, you just write your short flame: "French, you're historical losers, whereas we're the winners. Shut the f*ck up."

But you see, I'm not impressed. Or maybe I am.  I am, actually, surprised to see how anti-French feelings can be deeply rooted in someone with such _limited_ cerebral cavities.

I may be flaming you here. So I will rectify my own writings: AppMan, I still don't believe you are this 'infinite idiot' you revendicate to be. I'm just waiting for some other cavities of your brain to get activated. I am waiting for your arguments.

Make my day 

Usual Toast Disclaimer (UTD): mods, if something is wrong with this post, tell me (AIM: brat270783, mail, or PM), and I'll show wise enough to reformulate it properly.


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## toast (Mar 18, 2003)

_Gnomo_: * I'm very sorry Toast.  I will never understand how a nation [USA] that prides itself on Freedom of Speach can get so peaved off to resort to slander and libel when someone dares to disagree with them.*

Well, this argument can be turned upside down. The USA prided freedom of speech in the first place because their Revolution found inspiration in the French intellectual tendencies of that time.

The USA may be priding itself on freedom of speech, my own country often prides itself on Human Rights. _Oui_, we are the nation of Human Rights, _bien sûr_ ! But have we always been their best representative ? Obviously not.

This debate about Iraq can be sickening. There is an obvious cleavage between pro and anti war supporters. But, as France is majoritarely against the war, some people are confusing this cleavage with a national one. And therefore, as these people support war and know that their hymn is not The Marseillaise, therefore these people are turning the debate to open racism.

Yes, racism. Between France and America. Even though those two countries share a lot, incl. color of skin, I'll call it racism, based on the definition of racism which says racism is visceral hatred with no intelligible reason.

I would like to precise to the American people here who are confusing pro-/anti-war debate and French/American debate (which is not a debate BTW) that:
- Many Americans do not support the War.
- Some French do support the War.
- Most Europe thinks like France at the moment.

What I conclude of those points is that people who show unable to post anything here except references to French and American history in such a way that they want to prove are :

- racists. hating the French so much is like hating hating Jews or Arabs.

- narrow-minded. They really should insult all Europe (at least, actual Europe) for what Europe thinks of this war. But maybe they don't know Europe well enough. Maybe they don't know France is part of Europe. Never mind .

- To end, these people just convince me a bit more everyday that reason is on the side of the people opposed to this war. And on this side, you will find many Americans. You will find left wing, right wing, religious or not, old or not, rich or not - people.

The criteria that divides pro and anti-war people is not nationality. Is not age, sex, diploma or any classical sociodemographical variable. The criterii that divides both camps are much more sharp, complex and intricate ones.

I think that _fear, anxiety, paranoid tendencies, mental fragility and weakness_ are some of the criterii that I have in mind. I am ready to discuss that. If those anti-French people let me talk .

Usual Toast Disclaimer (UTD): mods, if something is wrong with this post, tell me (AIM: brat270783, mail, or PM), and I'll show wise enough to reformulate it properly.


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## Decado (Mar 18, 2003)

Well said!


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## PowermacG4_450 (Mar 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by edX _
> *at what point do you plan to join the fighting artie?  *



Hmmm, perhaps when YOU do? Or other left wing anti war nut I keep seeing on CNN and the local news? 

I can tell you this. Ive never been in the military, But my uncle's were, my father, my grandfathers. they all fought for this country. USA. For Our freedom. 

Had They and people like them chose to run the other way in previous wars, perhaps things would be different in the USA today? We would NOT be a free country. 

Perhaps iraq and russia would be the superpower today? 

Honestly, I cant say for sure if im for or against the war. I dont have all the facts. I dont know what the US govt knows. NONE of us do really! We ALL are only speculating.

I only know what the press tells us. Which isnt much.


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## Ugg (Mar 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PowermacG4_450 _
> 
> I dont have all the facts. I dont know what the US govt knows. NONE of us do really! We ALL are only speculating.
> 
> I only know what the press tells us. Which isnt much. [/B]



Well, why wouldn't the Govt tell us what they know?  We know all the possibilities right?  We know that the majority of the bio/chemical agents came from the US, ok, maybe not the majority but at least there is a huge paper trail between the US and Iraq proving where a bunch of the stuff came from.  

Has Iraq invented some super bug that would create panic in the streets if it was revealed to us stupid morons?  

Why won't the govt. reveal its proof?  So far all we've gotten is some plagiarized paper from a few years back.  

Why?


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## Zammy-Sam (Mar 18, 2003)

What is making you, powermac, think, you guys are free? Because you can make war whenever you want? Yeah, you are right, dude.
I think I have heard that there is a huge percentage of US people who are against the war. What about them? Why do they have to shut up? And you call your country free? Hmmmmm... strange point of view.

But at least you accept the point it's not right to judge on anything without knowing all details. The point that is making me be so much against US idea of solving things between them and Iraq is, that the US government was not able to convince the neutral UN!!!!

And one thing about AppMan: poor way to clarify your position. You should be considered as the next president!  (kidding with a touch of sarcasm)


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## MDLarson (Mar 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zammy-Sam _
> *What is making you, powermac, think, you guys are free? Because you can make war whenever you want? Yeah, you are right, dude.
> *


Probably the fact that we can openly insult people in power and not be killed for it.


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## Decado (Mar 18, 2003)

hmmm... but when you do it on t-shirts as we have seen in other threads you could get kicked out of a store or school.
and you can't swear in public tv or show nipples (whyyy?). 
American artists are always happy when being interviewed in sweden cuz they know that they can say and show anything without getting the annoying beep-sound or fuzzy picture. 
What are you afraid of?


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## MDLarson (Mar 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Decado _
> *hmmm... but when you do it on t-shirts as we have seen in other threads you could get kicked out of a store or school.
> and you can't swear in public tv or show nipples (whyyy?).
> American artists are always happy when being interviewed in sweden cuz they know that they can say and show anything without getting the annoying beep-sound or fuzzy picture.
> What are you afraid of? *


Modesty has its value.


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## toast (Mar 18, 2003)

LOL. You can't even lect them properly. Call that a free country ? 

More seriously, USA obviously are a free country. A free country with several democratic failures: this President you have was elected by a very _thin_ majority (if majority at all), and now he is acting as if his whole people was backing him on the war.

*Artie Evans:* _Perhaps iraq and russia would be the superpower today?_

Could you please give the comparatibility criterii between Iraq and USSR (as you obviously meant USSR by 'Russia') ? I think grouping those two countries in one sentence is an extremely difficult argument to have, esp. when talking of 'superpower' policies. I'll be around


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## Decado (Mar 18, 2003)

MDLarson writes:
"Modesty has its value."

Very true 
Larson, thats from swedish Larsson. Meaning 'son of Lars' (Lars is a name)


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## Decado (Mar 18, 2003)

I read this test, by the way, where ordinary americans (yeah i know that when the testmakers are to pick ordinary people they always pick goofballs) were to point on a world map where they thought iraq was situated. four out of five were wrong. 3 out of five pointed at a totally wrong part of the world (like africa).
I have to confess i couldnt point out a third of the states of america right, but at least i dont support my primeminister of bombing ohio, par exemple


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## toast (Mar 18, 2003)

For more interesting stats about level of education, see the OECD PISA studies.
26% of American schoolboys aged 15 can't locate their own country on a map.
27% of German schoolboys cannot either.


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## Decado (Mar 18, 2003)

that is baaaad (crossing his fingers the same numbers dont aply for sweden)


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## MDLarson (Mar 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by toast _
> *A free country with several democratic failures: this President you have was elected by a very thin majority (if majority at all), and now he is acting as if his whole people was backing him on the war.*


Well, you listed *one* democratic "failure" (just being persnickity)  

But also, I'd rather see a strong president vs. one who is constantly tip toeing around because of a vote count 3 or 4 years ago.  I have the same opinion of former president Clinton, somebody who (I believe) shouldn't have been in office, but I respected his position just the same.


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## Ugg (Mar 18, 2003)

Yeah, somewhere after the social revolution of the 60s  it was decided that rote memorization was a bad thing.  Now, I personally think that the American Educ. system at its absolute best is the best in the world but when it comes to anything outside our country's borders, forget it.  We don't know beans.  

I consider myself pretty aware of the world but compared to the majority of you who are from outside N. America, I'm pretty ignorant.  I just learned 5 years ago (i'm 40) that Singapore is a city state.  

Uhhh, Toast, how did the French do?


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## toast (Mar 18, 2003)

Flawed elections and monist behavior count as two for me 

But you are right, I should have written "one major democratic failure" and should have also added "in my opinion" at the end.

I have strictly no opinion whether Bill Clinton was legitimate or not. Anyway, even if he wasn't this would not make Bush a legitimate President.


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## Decado (Mar 18, 2003)

I have nothing against america, as i know that you are not one single organism but actually a people with a lot of different opinions 

It just pisses me of when the rest of the world want to decide on an enviromental plan to reduce pollution and the USA, who pollute the most, says no, out of economical preassure from its larger industries. that sort of thing makes me question and be a persnickity (?) about all the other decisions your government make. i like the environment. peace


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## Ugg (Mar 18, 2003)

It's sad to see such disregard for the environment from GW.  It will be even more sad if he pushes through legislation to open up the Alaska National Wildlife Refuge to oil drilling.  

Alternative energy is the pathway to the future.  Your neighbor to the south, Decado has made amazing strides in wind power and sea power.  Doesn't Denmark now generate something like 30%+ of its electricity from alternative sources?  In Mecklenburg-Vorpormmern 20% of electricity is generated by wind mills.  Nortex, is one of the few bright spots in Germany's non-automobile manufacturing sector right now.  Their windmills are being exported around the world.  Good for them.  

The newer models don't harm birds, can't be set on fire, don't pollute the environment, and all though we can tilt at windmills and make them tilt by blowing them up, I can't imagine that terrorists would ever be attracted to them.  Of course they are not a complete solution, but certainly a part of it.


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## Decado (Mar 18, 2003)

Yes! denmark is great in that respect!
And all this is too important to let moneymaking companies decide on what path the development of ways to use natural power-sources should take. They are too conservative. But it's kool with these new cars that run partially on gas and only use oil to get started. My father got one. I mean the nations could come together and decide that no car without gasengine would be allowed to be manufactured and that would be great for the environment and the prices would really drop cuz the gas is just a rest-product from the garbage-industries and will never suffer shortage, and its clean as spring compared to oil. but nooo.
We have big tax-paying oil-companies who dont want us to do that.
So for now thare are not that many gas-stations (with gas) and that makes it more expensive and the parts you need to build the cars is more expensive since there is no massproduction etc. Goodnight, its 1.27 in the morning


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## edX (Mar 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by toast _
> *For more interesting stats about level of education, see the OECD PISA studies.
> 26% of American schoolboys aged 15 can't locate their own country on a map.
> 27% of German schoolboys cannot either. *



i wouldn't read too much into this. i saw something about this posted on the bulletin board at my post office and then quizzed my 13 yo son about it. after correctly identifying the US, i told him why i had asked. he laughed and told me that lots of them purposely give wrong answers when administered survey tests or any test that doesn't count towards their grade. it's sort of the cool way of saying how much you hate being tested.

not to say education couldn't be improved, but measures like that are not valid.


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## MDLarson (Mar 18, 2003)

Hmm, that's a good point.  I forgot how immature everybody was in grade school!  lol


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## kalantna (Mar 18, 2003)

I have a newsflash for everyone, or more importantly for all of us Americans on the board. We are not nor have he ever been what I would call a democracy. We are (brace yourselves) a Rebublic. Don't believe me? Recite the Pledge. "And to the REPUBLIC to which it stands". 

A democracy should be 100% by the people for the people.

If we were a 100% democracy there would not be instances throughout our brief history of the electoral college voting against the majority vote for president. (Don't ask me when it was. Find out for yourself.) Also, do you think that "Dubwa" would have been elected if it had been. (CHAD my hairy @$$).

I personally would like to say a great BIG thank you to France for their help some 200 years ago and how can I see the nipples on TV over the web.


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## Ugg (Mar 18, 2003)

Good for the kids who take on the system!  

In response to Decado, as of the middle of last year, British Petroleum controls 10% of the worldwide production of solar cels.  The oil companies and the automakers know only too well that the internal combustion engine is on its last legs so to speak.  Even under the most optimistic OPEC, Halliburton, Cheney, Bush, Saudi, Nigerian, US, etc, etc, estimates, there is only enough oil to satisfy CURRENT demand for the next 30-40 years.  Hmmm, that means that new power supplies are going to have to come from other sources whether they be wind, solar, ocean, nuclear, fuel cells, or whatever.  

GW and his gang belong to the world of the dinosaurs.  Instead of giving the billions in tax breaks to the oil companies he should institute a tax on all oil imports and apply it to the Research and Development of alternative energy sources.  Then the US would truly rule the world!!!!!!  That is really a joke, ok!


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## toast (Mar 18, 2003)

OECD test victims are asked not to do this kind of stuff. But still, you can't force a grade school pupil to play fool 
Very good point, Ed. Shoudl tell OECD PISA inspectors about it


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## Ugg (Mar 18, 2003)

True Kalantna, there never has been a true decmocracy and there has never been a true communist state.  Our republic is patterned directly after that of the French model.  The french model is the basis for government in the western world.  With a bicameral legislative body, a supreme court, and a president and or a prime minister.  What this means is that power is decentralized.   No longer will the leaders of these republics be able to enslave their citizens.  

They are fragile creatures however, Hitler used the republican form of government to get into power and then slowly and systematically weakened it until it was only a shell of its former self.  I don't believe he was the only one to do so either.  

A republic is only as stable as the people who oversee it and its citizens.  The ultimate responsibility belongs to the citizens to ensure that those in power uphold the constitution and the law.  The constitution of the US has come under serious attack lately and I think all Americans would do well to focus on that rather than on the middle east.  If GW's regime is allowed to institute Patriot Act II then we can say goodbye to forums like these being available for us to express our dissatisfaction.  Even if they don't disappear they will be monitored like the Soviets did or the Americans during one of the most hateful periods of our history, the Reign of Senator Joe McCarthy.  (Please all bow down in reverence to he who destroyed the fabric of American life to expose the Communist filth among us)  I'm not well-versed on McCarthy but his committee is a lot like the Homeland Security thingie with it's color-coded fear elevators.  Whose homeland is this anyway?  

The only other Regimes that have used the word homeland with initial impunity were Hitler and P K Botha of South Africa.  Do we as Americans realize the outcome of our president's actions?  Are we willing to give up our freedoms for the sake of our president?  Will our government protect those freedoms or simply and slowly do away with them?  

Man, I wish I had the answer to all that.  All I know is that these are some pretty rough times and we have some tough decisions to make and the consequences of those decisions are going to follow us for a long, long time.  

I fail to see a positive outcome to this mess.  Anyone else see the sun shining on Baghdad ever again?


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