# new to OS X...not unix



## smtpgeek (Apr 6, 2005)

hello fellow geeks-

I have just got my first powerbook running mac osx and I am totally happy.  This is very cool...Actually I am at a loss of words, which is unusual for me.  The feeling of using the well thought-out OS when  coming from windoze is super.

I am a unix admin with most time spent with freebsd and thought that things were gonna be the same, but just with a well tuned gui.....I was wrong.  I am not that disappointed but I am hoping that I will b able to get the lowdown from some people here to get me on the path and get up to speed.  I am just happy that I do not have to rely on my windows box for day to day desktop stuff.  I never really got around to building a desktop with freebsd and always hoped to get a mac since they inroduced OS X.  Must be the geek in me.

Anyhow, I am wondering what OSX had in terms of packages or ports with respect to open or free BSD's?  i found my way to the command line as soon as I got my computer fixed...I bought it used and broke and did a little fixin to save a LOT of money and now I am really happy that it worked out.... and typed wget and that wasn't happening.  So I went for what I know and thought ports which is what  I need to take care of here.  Does everything need to be compiled?  Or are there packages or ports.  I really hope that someone implements something similar to the freebsd ports collection for OS X if hasn't already been done.  Very nice thing to have. 

I am also wondering if there are any recommended sites or books that I should check out for my info.  I am mostly talking sysadmin stuff for OS X. 

OK, I have many boxen that I need to log into everyday.  I was using securecrt on the windoze desktop, but with openssh built into the OS there does not seem to be a market for anyone to write a ssh gui for OSX.  Now, I do not need a gui to feel at home, it is just convenient to have it manage the logins and hostname/IPs.  I could very well do the manual thing by logging in just as I was on a terminal, but I am looking for a solution to make things easier on me.  I am pretty sure that there are sysadmins using OSX for their desktop and would like to hear from them if they have any idears on how they manage their ssh logins to other machines.

Well, I am glad to be here and hope to hear from anyone with light to shed.

peace,
Bob


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## ElDiabloConCaca (Apr 6, 2005)

Forget about package updates -- OS X doesn't use the typical UNIX package when it comes to upgrades.  Apple provides their own, proprietary package formats, available through "Software Update" via the Apple Menu or System Preferences.

If you're looking for a good UNIX package management system, check out Fink and FinkCommander:

http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/12077
http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/15256

That'll get you good 'ol UNIX-style packages which will install on OS X and not conflict with any previous installation of UNIX software.  You can choose to download complete pre-built packages, or compile them from source yourself with the click of a button.


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## smtpgeek (Apr 6, 2005)

Is that just for gui administration?


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## ElDiabloConCaca (Apr 6, 2005)

Fink is the package manager.  FinkCommander is the unnecessary but really nice GUI frontend to Fink.  Fink uses wget to update packages (or maybe apt-get, or both, I can't remember)...


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## Viro (Apr 6, 2005)

Get fink from http://fink.sourceforge.net. It's basically a port of Debian's apt toolset to OS X. However they seem to be moving towards using their own toolchain of late and recommend compiling everything from source to stay up to date (a la Gentoo). It's fairly intuitive for a Unix veteran so you shouldn't have problems using it.

There is also an alternative to fink that is based on FreeBSD ports. It's called Darwinports (http://darwinports.opendarwin.org) and it works almost exactly like FreeBSD ports.


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## rbuenger (Apr 7, 2005)

Peronally I do't like Fink. Ok, it's good to get some (often old) unix applications installed but they are not integrated in OS X. It's just a second directory where all the stuff is put in to use if with the X11 environment...

I recommend to learn what OS X need and where it is. I've thrown away at least 50% of all the stuff Apple provides with OS 10.3.x All the libs, commands, scripts trashed and replaced with the actual release version avaiable (www.sourceforge.net or gnu.org for example). You can easily compile most sources out there for *nix and integrate (replace Apples old stuff) with them. And you can trash 100+ applications/libs if you don't need them (like all the classic support, afp, softwareupdate, Safari, Mail, iChat all the frameworks for these apps...)

For example I've removed the whole ShareIP, firewalltool and a lot more and now use ipfw the way it should be used in a *nix environment. Recompiled the whole accounting stuff, replaced all the commands like grep, awk, locate , curl ... with the new versions. (I'm using --exec_prefix=/usr --prefix=/usr for the configure cmd as it otherwise would use /usr/local/ And first check with locate where Apple has placed their stuff as they sometimes put it in a place where it shouldn't be).

In my opinion Apple has spoiled a good unix base with their own stuff. It's ok to create some stupid GUI's for the normal gamer out there but why removing all the good *nix fearures and replace them with crap that even doesn't work? And if you just add more files to the hd with Fink itas just getting worse in my opinion.

So OS 10.3 is not so different compared to freebsd. You just have to replace/update a lot and compile everything on your own. But my 10.3.6 (compiled xnu kernel no the 'normal' 10.3.6 as I need some feature 10.3.x otherwise doesn't offer) is now faster booting around 10 sec. faster and stable for over 3 month now with most of the *nix stuff integrated.


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## Viro (Apr 7, 2005)

Some people like the ease of use with maintaining the macs. Without fink, you will need to hunt down dependencies, you need to manually compile each package and then you need to install them. Once installed, you need to keep checking for updates manually, most usually by going to the projects' websites. Fink automates this process for you, and saves you loads of time. Sure, it's not installed in /usr but in /sw. My question is, so what? What's the big deal?

Removing all the other stuff like afp, and firewall tool may be good, but software update? A custom compiled kernel? That just makes the Mac more troublesome to maintain. Sure, if you want total control, I can see the benefit in that. Guess that's the same thing if you're a Unix purist. But if you really wanted a Unix machine without all the Apple userland tools, perhaps you should just install Darwin or Linux or FreeBSD?

I never understood the need for hacking OS X. If you want a Unix system that doesn't have all the fancy jazz that OS X has, just install something like Linux. I've got it on my Powerbook, and it's fun.


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## padishahemperor (Apr 7, 2005)

Or get VirtualPC and hack about in there without affecting the OS X itself.


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## adambyte (Apr 7, 2005)

Ugh.... I tried using Linux on my PowerBook within Virtual PC... the sad thing was, it was almost as slow as Windows.... sad, eh?


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## rbuenger (Apr 7, 2005)

Viro said:
			
		

> but software update? A custom compiled kernel? That just makes the Mac more troublesome to maintain.


No, that's not true if you make it correct 
And I need some applications that are just not available for *nix. So I have to choose between Windows or OS X and you know I not using Windows 

So now I try to get a unix as good as it can be but still able to run the Aqua GUI applications I need. The original kernel is just nor acceptable as there are 2 things that need to be changed as the kernel Apple ships just can't do what I need. So either Windows or my own xnu kernel.

And why leave Safari, Mail, iChat, Classic Support, iSync... there if it's just never being used. So it's just dead harddisk space and a possible security hole. Same for all the corresponding frameworks.. Now the system is faster than ever bevor and all the librarys are up to date. My system is even more up to date than OS 10.3.8. Apple didn't even manage it to close the mRouter vuln. that is fixed here in my 10.3.6 version.

And updating all this is very easy. I just have to type 'emerge -a -c sync' and my script set is searching gnu, sourceforge.. for the lastest sources and compile them for me 

So why use muletiple systems if I just can have the best of unix and OS X in one system. I just don't like it that Apple doesn't use the power of unix. They create so many own applications for functions already better implemented with a unix tool. Why not just create a nice GUI for this tool so that even a 'normal' user can use it. A good example is the 'search' feature. Slocate is a lot faster. Why not just integrate it in the finder. Same for ipfw. Why providing such a 'stupid' Firewall PrefPane for such a great firewall that even allow bandwith management. 

I just don't understand why Apple choose such a great unix 'underground' and then don't use 50% of the features they got with it. I mean it's okay to hide all these things as a 'normal' user never need them but creating own tools that just try to resemble what is already there is just stupid in my opinion. And exactly this is the reason why 10.3.6 was the last product ever installed from Apple. Just check all these 'exit 0' scripts in /System/Library/StartUpItems/ to see how 'good' Apple can maintain their own system.


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## smtpgeek (Apr 7, 2005)

Are all the libs and commands easily compiled in OS X or do you have to have some programming/debugging skills to get things working?  I have come across things on the web that people have issues with, so I was thinking that since apple is reinventing the wheel that things may not work as smoothly when compiling or installing.  While problems dont really scare me, what does scare me is that there is not really all that much support on the we based on peoples experiences with this OS with respect to the unix aspect.  I can only assume this since the OS is fairly new and most of its base is not touching the terminal.

Thanks for the info regarding apple and their approach to this OS.  While I am not surprised that they choose to break ground wherever possible, it really is not always necessary....especially when all kinds of time has been spent in everything BSD to date.

-Bob


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## nixgeek (Apr 7, 2005)

adambyte said:
			
		

> Ugh.... I tried using Linux on my PowerBook within Virtual PC... the sad thing was, it was almost as slow as Windows.... sad, eh?



Remember that you are running it in an *emulated environment*.  That's like complaining that OS X is DOG SLOW in general because it's DOG SLOW on PearPC on an x86 box.  Try running Linux on the actual Mac hardware, and you'll see that it's hardly slow.  A little harder to get things going, maybe, but definitely not slow.

No offense and sorry for the off-topic nature, but comparisons like this tend to irk me.


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## adambyte (Apr 7, 2005)

Oh, no, I know that what I was doing was emulation, as opposed to running Linux on PPC natively.

I just made the hypothesis that Linux would be a lighter CPU load than Windows would be, that's all.


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## nixgeek (Apr 7, 2005)

adambyte said:
			
		

> Oh, no, I know that what I was doing was emulation, as opposed to running Linux on PPC natively.
> 
> I just made the hypothesis that Linux would be a lighter CPU load than Windows would be, that's all.



In that sense, then no, it wouldn't.  Linux is fast...without X11 to slow it down.  Of course, a lighter window manager would help.  Also remember that the graphics support given by VirtualPC isn't the greatest.  Just enough to give you more than 16 colors.


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## rbuenger (Apr 8, 2005)

smtpgeek said:
			
		

> Are all the libs and commands easily compiled in OS X or do you have to have some programming/debugging skills to get things working?


Depends on the lib. Most of them are working fine without any changes needed. For example libnet, glib, libpng, gettext... just work out of the box. But if you try to get things like gtk+ running it's really hard (and sometimes impossible). So if you're just interested in 'simple' libs (used with snort, nc..) there is no problem. You just have to make sure that you replace some older libs that Apple ships to get some of them working. And don't use just configure as this will put everything in /usr/local leaving the old one in /usr still active. I often search the existing libs with locate after 'make'ing the new and bevor installing them to make sure they are where they should be as Apple sometimes place them in unusual places.



			
				smtpgeek said:
			
		

> While problems dont really scare me, what does scare me is that there is not really all that much support on the we based on peoples experiences with this OS with respect to the unix aspect.


This is sadly the case. I believe that 95% of the OS X users never tryed using the shell. And 4% of the rest just for some 'cool game hacks' or to show their friends that they can 'hack the os'  
It's really hard to find people that can help you with a real unix problem. For example I'm rarely asking in a Mac board now. Tryed it in 6 boards that have a special 'unix section' but they simply can't help me most times. I just got stupid answers like 'Nobody needs this', 'get freebsd if you want that' or 'there is a gui for this so use it'. In the beginning I believed that Mac users are open for new ideas and 'different thinking' but sadly this isn't the case with 99% of them. They just think Apple is godlike and if you want to change their os you must be evil. And they are just as blind (if not more) as Windows users if it comes to security as most of them believe that OS X is 100% secure and they don't have to think about this problem. 

I've learned that a Mac user telling me that he knows unix in most cases just know how to do ls or cd. And if they are good they know locate or how to do a bit regex. But if you wanne know how to integrate snort inline or debug the filesystem ask in a unix board.


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## smolz (Apr 8, 2005)

smtpgeek said:
			
		

> OK, I have many boxen that I need to log into everyday.  I was using securecrt on the windoze desktop, but with openssh built into the OS there does not seem to be a market for anyone to write a ssh gui for OSX.  Now, I do not need a gui to feel at home, it is just convenient to have it manage the logins and hostname/IPs.  I could very well do the manual thing by logging in just as I was on a terminal, but I am looking for a solution to make things easier on me.  I am pretty sure that there are sysadmins using OSX for their desktop and would like to hear from them if they have any idears on how they manage their ssh logins to other machines.



Have you found anything that will do this for you, I am looking for something myself


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## rbuenger (Apr 8, 2005)

Maybe this is what you search? http://www.securemac.com/macosxsshhelper.php

Edit: Sorry this is the wrong app. Thought it could also manage the host entrys


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## texanpenguin (Apr 18, 2005)

Fugu is the SFTP and SSH GUI that they use at Uni:

http://rsug.itd.umich.edu/software/fugu/


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