# Newest known Tiger build: Mac OS X 10.4.3 8F8



## fryke (Nov 1, 2004)

This thread will be used to discuss the arrivals of new builds, so please don't create a new thread about every new build. Rather, we'll want separate threads on special _details_ of Tiger. We'll update the thread's name to reflect the newest reported build of Tiger.
Up until now, there have been only a few builds out in more hands than a few. There was 8A162 (the WWDC release), then 8A171 (via Software Update), we later heard about 8A2xx builds, mostly from AppleInsider and lately (more wide-spreadedly) about 8A268 and 8A294, which was more widely seeded (i.e. ADC Select).


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## ~~NeYo~~ (Nov 2, 2004)

I like this idea for the Tiger Forums, nice one.  Much easier to get at, and chat about Tiger Dev.


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## fryke (Nov 4, 2004)

Apple has seeded ADC Select members with Tiger Server 8A297.


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## fryke (Dec 7, 2004)

Apple has seeded 8A323 of Tiger Client.


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## fryke (Dec 7, 2004)

(My download for the 1.99 GB DVD image is taking 2 hours - quite fast - so I can't report anything yet...)


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## Giaguara (Dec 7, 2004)

fryke you are a bit further of cupertino releases if you got the build that you suggest in the title of the thread already 1st november (as the 1st post indicates).


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## fryke (Dec 7, 2004)

Huh? Em... The thread's used to indicate 'latest builds', so I'm changing the thread's title, which also changes first post's title, as you're certainly aware, no?


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## blue&whiteman (Dec 7, 2004)

anyone using it yet?  whats performance like?


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## Giaguara (Dec 8, 2004)

fryke, i *really* avoid all the tiger threads. i still can't talk about tiger even with the people at work .. so imagine anywhere in the internet. but sorry, had to say that ..


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## fryke (Dec 8, 2004)

Erh... That's okay, Gia. But if you _say_ something in a Tiger thread and I _answer_ you, I expect an answer, too. And I just explained why the first post reflected a newer build in the title than the post's date would suggest. (Because _yesterday_ I changed the thread's title, after Apple seeded 8A323...) 

I've installed it, blue&white. There's a new screenshot here: http://macintosh.fryke.com/cgi-bin/macnews.cgi/2004/12/08#20041208_mail8a323 ... But I haven't tried much with it yet. Back on Panther to do some work before I go back to Tiger.


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## cybergoober (Dec 8, 2004)

Downloading between 1.5 and 2 MB/sec 

Should be done in about 20 minutes or so...


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## AdmiralAK (Dec 8, 2004)

How stable are they (if NDA permits)


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## fryke (Dec 8, 2004)

For me it feels like the system itself is quite stable, but some layers are being heavily worked on. Quartz Extreme, for example. So you get graphical glitches that might be annoying.

There's a _lot_ in the bug list. However, there's also quite some stuff marked as 'fixed' from the last seed...

I probably wouldn't advise anyone to try and actually _use_ the system in this state. But I could be wrong... And I'm going to try myself to put this on my main system in a few days (when I have the time to backup, upgrade to Tiger, erase, reinstall Panther, apply backup etc.).

Right now I'm only having the build on my external drive, empty, clean install. Which looks fine to me.


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## Zammy-Sam (Dec 8, 2004)

Isn't the release date still january 2005? If so, this might be too soon for such a state, huh?


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## cybergoober (Dec 8, 2004)

Zammy-Sam said:
			
		

> Isn't the release date still january 2005? If so, this might be too soon for such a state, huh?


Still?
Was it ever slated for a January release?
I remember when Amazon first listed it for pre-order they had a date of March 19th or something, but I doubt that was "official"...


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## fryke (Dec 8, 2004)

The only _official_ statement is 'first half of 2005', which could quite possible mean the end of June. But as I stated on macnews.net.tc, a January release seems _quite_ improbable, whatever other rumour sites have been blurting in the past. (I kinda remember that they linked some iLife rebate thingie which'll end in January or something to the Tiger release in January, which I even _then_ thought was wrong...)

Developers will only get 8A323 on DVD sometimes mid to end of December. And I don't think Apple would send those if a GM version was expected anytime soon. And quite obviously, none IS expected anytime soon.


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## cybergoober (Dec 8, 2004)

While the Tiger builds have been fairly stable for the most part, they're nowhere near "ready for prime time". I think a January release is ludicrous. There's still substantial work to be done.


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## blue&whiteman (Dec 8, 2004)

fryke said:
			
		

> For me it feels like the system itself is quite stable, but some layers are being heavily worked on. Quartz Extreme, for example. So you get graphical glitches that might be annoying.



isn't "core image" the new quartz extreme pretty much?  from what I have read it seems exactly like that.  sorta like quartz extreme on steroids with image edit plugins thrown in.


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## fryke (Dec 9, 2004)

Hmm... I don't think core image replaces QE. Flashing Aqua 'okay' buttons are certainly not in core image's area, unless i'm wrong.


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## fryke (Dec 9, 2004)

Safari defaults to www.apple.com/startpage now, btw.


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## cybergoober (Dec 9, 2004)

fryke said:
			
		

> Safari defaults to www.apple.com/startpage now, btw.


I don't think that's confined to Safari 2.0 in Tiger.

See here


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## fryke (Dec 9, 2004)

You're right, livepage.apple.com now links to apple.com/startpage... Didn't catch that...


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## blue&whiteman (Dec 9, 2004)

fryke said:
			
		

> Hmm... I don't think core image replaces QE. Flashing Aqua 'okay' buttons are certainly not in core image's area, unless i'm wrong.



but why have 2 features that both draw power/speed from the same video card?  they would slow each other down since they both pretty much just run on the video card.  its logical to say that qe will eventually be phased out since the new technology could take care of both duties more efficient than 2 would.

think I read about this on applefritter somewhere.  I will try and find this.


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## fryke (Dec 9, 2004)

Hm? Not at all. You also have Quartz Extreme, Quartz, OpenGL and other stuff all working with the same graphics card. But as far as I know, core-image and core-video are not at the same level as Quartz and Quartz Extreme. So they don't replace each other, rather one is used for a specific set of functions and other for something else...


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## Captain Code (Dec 9, 2004)

Quartz Extreme is used to render the GUI, but CoreImage is used by any program to do fast image manipulations such as gaussian blur etc.


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## blue&whiteman (Dec 9, 2004)

Captain Code said:
			
		

> Quartz Extreme is used to render the GUI, but CoreImage is used by any program to do fast image manipulations such as gaussian blur etc.




yes..  I understand that.


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## Hype.it (Dec 10, 2004)

Excuse me, but has anyone managed to get iSync to work with a P900? I manage to get them paired but there's no syncing. Maybe i should try a newer version huh?

*Build: 8A294*


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## fryke (Dec 10, 2004)

I've had trouble with iSynching in at least one build and now in 8A323, too. Although not with a SE P900, as I don't have one. But I guess synching will be fixed later...?


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## cybergoober (Dec 10, 2004)

iSync conduit seems to be working with my Palm m500


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## fryke (Dec 10, 2004)

Oh! Then I _must_ take another look at synching my Clié ...


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## Hype.it (Dec 10, 2004)

fryke said:
			
		

> Oh! Then I _must_ take another look at synching my Clié ...



And what with ichat? it's more buggy than it's ever been! Since installing i managed to connect one and every other time, it quits or crashes. 

[off_topic]
YDL4 is just as bad! There's no firewire installer yet.

*returns to Tiger...*


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## cybergoober (Dec 10, 2004)

Actually, it just occurred to me that I haven't tried syncing in 8A323 yet. This was in 8A294


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## Hype.it (Dec 10, 2004)

I guess i have a really strange phone, i seem to have problems syncing in Panther too sometimes. 

How's iChat for you? Damn I need an iSight, i'd love to test the video conferencing feature...


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## cybergoober (Dec 10, 2004)

Well, I personally prefer Adium for my IM needs. It frustrates me to no end having a window open for each person I'm chatting with. Only time I really use iChat is when I'm trying to transfer files.


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## fryke (Dec 10, 2004)

iChat works fine for me. There's 8A323A now, btw.  In Software Update.


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## cybergoober (Dec 10, 2004)

Yeah, just saw that. Actually got the email and didn't read it fully. Thought there was already another build to download lol.


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## Hype.it (Dec 11, 2004)

I guess i have a really strange phone, i seem to have problems syncing in Panther too sometimes. 

How's iChat for you? Damn I need an iSight, i'd love to test the video conferencing feature...


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## StarBuck (Dec 12, 2004)

If you're using Tiger 8A323a you might want to try setting up iChat 3.0 with a Jabber account.

I hear you ask why ?

At last we can send IM to people using MSN with iChat 3.0 and jabber gateway.

Give it a go.


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## Captain Code (Dec 12, 2004)

Cool.  So you have to setup MSN to use a jabber gateway I assume?


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## StarBuck (Dec 12, 2004)

You will need to setup a account using PSi or another jabber client then setup the msn gateway.  

Once you have done this you will be up and running


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## cybergoober (Dec 23, 2004)

Mac OS X Server 10.4 Build 8A325 seeded...


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## fryke (Dec 24, 2004)

Yup.  Adjusted the thread title accordingly...


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## cabbage (Jan 9, 2005)

The latest version of Tiger client is unstable and unusable.  Tiger Server is much more stable but has plenty of bugs.


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## cj.one (Jan 13, 2005)

Hi

Anyone knows which build there was shown at the keynote? Can see some changes in the graphic in the menubar etc. Well i guess it will be posted at ADC for us to download later on.


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## bobw (Jan 13, 2005)

Fire is free, and the new version has tabs, one window for all chats.


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## cybergoober (Jan 13, 2005)

bobw said:
			
		

> Fire is free, and the new version has tabs, one window for all chats.


If that was directed at me, I have tried Fire but much prefer the also free AdiumX chat client


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## fryke (Jan 21, 2005)

Both client and server builds 8A351 have been seeded.


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## cybergoober (Jan 21, 2005)

Did an upgrade here lazy and impatient  Will probably do a clean install this weekend.

First (very quick) observations
Was expecting the new Dashboard same ol' same ol'.
New Dictionary.app
Mail.app has been updated and sports the new appearance

That's it so far (only been running about 15 minutes)


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## cj.one (Jan 22, 2005)

Well after aprox. 1 hour of download time -time for the burn of the DVD. The installment went painless and about 20 min -more or less on my PowerBook G4 -1.25 Ghz. Did an 'archive and install'.

It seems very stable and they really did a huge job with this build. However the only Applications i can't get to work on the system is Macromedia Dreamweaver MX 2004 and Flash MX 2004 Professional. So i tried the Dreamweaver MX and that runs just fine.

Also found some issues with Transmit 2.6.2 and drag'n'drop not working correct.

More to come...


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## Decado (Jan 22, 2005)

what about the new spotlight logo?
it looked kind of boring in steves keynote and on apples tiger-site. i liked the other better because it was more interesting.


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## cj.one (Jan 22, 2005)

Decado said:
			
		

> what about the new spotlight logo?
> it looked kind of boring in steves keynote and on apples tiger-site. i liked the other better because it was more interesting.



Well i like this new one much better than the 'old' one. There are much more harmony in the interface now. The old menu attracted too much attention -at least it's my opinion.


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## Decado (Jan 22, 2005)

but it's always nice with big visual change when when you buy a new OS version 
like the new finder in panther, or the clear dock in jaguar.


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## fryke (Jan 22, 2005)

The 'more interesting' look of the menubar was, to say the least, distracting when working day-to-day with Tiger. The new look is more toned down and 'better' in this regard. Those new look things, btw., wear off quickly once you're actually using new systems. So they have to be compatible with everyday use, and the Bright blue background of earlier Apple and Spotlight logos in past builds were MUCH too distracting...

But I think Apple will try out several new looks until Final (they've already changed things there a couple times by now in Tiger betas), and I hope it'll be _slightly_ changed from how it is now - the blues and grays don't yet seem to match the general look completely yet.

Btw.: It looks like the only thing that was kept through these changes is that the menu bar will _really_ adopt the two-tone look from other UI elements already present in Panther (for example the buttons on Safari). And I like that very much. Non-intrusive, but much better than the lines in Aqua (Jaguar and earlier) and toned-down Aqua (Panther).


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## cj.one (Jan 23, 2005)

Is there a way to change the default file format for talking screenshots in Tiger? Really anoying the default format is PNG. I would like to change it to PDF like in Panther


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## fryke (Jan 24, 2005)

I guess you'd have to search the forums about this on how to do it in Panther and earlier, too. Off of my mind, I dunno... But you can always use Cmd-Shift-3 and -4 to just copy to the clipboard and then paste it into a new file in Preview where you can export as anything it handles, I think (or use some graphics application)...


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## er48072 (Jan 25, 2005)

I get this every time I open it and then I click retry and it opens find.  Also would love to see a priority setting, like entourage, so messages can be sent as urgent.  If it is there I may have missed it.  It is 3 am here and just playing with all the new things.  My next test is to see if it will see the new blue tooth Motorola phone v710.  What good is a blue tooth phone and a blue tooth computer if they can not see each other.


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## cybergoober (Jan 25, 2005)

If the phone/computer pairing doesn't work, I would wait until after the Final has been released before you write it off as being no good

As for the screenshot format, I'm not aware of any way to change that. You might want to search macosxhints.com


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## Viro (Jan 25, 2005)

How is spotlight working? I remember people complaining about the long times it took to index a drive. Is that still a problem? Having played a little with Beagle on GNOME, I'm keen to have spotlight.

What about general performance? Better than Panther?


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## er48072 (Jan 25, 2005)

I had only one problem with spotlight it for sure was not indexing it took a very short time with my machine.  But the thing i find weird is that I typed journal and after seeing the presentation of Steve at the Developer Convention it should pull up everything.  However it only pulled up the word journal, wereas I had an application called Macjournal and it did not locate this until i typed it exactly.  But you can see it is going to be great because of the way it found the pictures I had hidden or screen shots of problems it pulled them right away.  You can tell it is a work in progress and it already is better than the Google attempt at this on the PC side.  

Eddie


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## fryke (Jan 25, 2005)

Guess it really didn't finish the index completely for some reason. Indexing took a bit over 4 hours on my machine and spotlighting afterwards worked flawlessly for me.


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## Captain Code (Jan 25, 2005)

Does it reindex at every boot?  I've noticed the last build did this.  It started saying it'd take 2 hrs but then went down to 20 mins after a while.


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## fryke (Jan 25, 2005)

Couldn't say as I'm not into Tiger-mood tonight (i.e. I've got a lot of work to do, so I'm in Panther right now...). But I guess it'd at least _update_ its index at every reboot - and the indexing time should normally be minimal after the very first time. But: It's still too early to tell about the final product...

Is anyone else getting the feeling that March and April will pass without a public release? Right now, I have the feeling that we're still in the feature-addition mode, and that Apple will want to take at least 45 days of intensive betatesting after feature-freeze...


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## cybergoober (Jan 26, 2005)

I'm thinking a release at or near WWDC myself.


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## ylon (Jan 26, 2005)

fryke said:
			
		

> Couldn't say as I'm not into Tiger-mood tonight (i.e. I've got a lot of work to do, so I'm in Panther right now...). But I guess it'd at least _update_ its index at every reboot - and the indexing time should normally be minimal after the very first time. But: It's still too early to tell about the final product...
> 
> Is anyone else getting the feeling that March and April will pass without a public release? Right now, I have the feeling that we're still in the feature-addition mode, and that Apple will want to take at least 45 days of intensive betatesting after feature-freeze...



Yep, unfortunately I do agree, feels like you're right.


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## er48072 (Jan 29, 2005)

When I try to use the Widget for the clock it is an hour fast.  I have checked the international setting and have tried both the auto set to clock on server to manual and get the same result.  Any ideas.


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## Jason (Jan 29, 2005)

daylight savings


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## er48072 (Jan 29, 2005)

I am coming from a windows environment so this is all new. I have set a small network here at home just 4 Macs and 1 PC, an Xerox Phasor 8400 and a HP 5150.  I can write filemaker databases and 4D databases and I just want to switch over to the Mac, because you cannot throw a stone in the air and not hit someone that is a windows developer or network analyst.  So I am putting the money in to learning EVERYTHING I can about the Mac product. I am already playing with Applescript Studio and Xcode. 

I tried the daylight saving times but I must be looking in the wrong place.

I also would like to know if there are more widgets??  If so where can I get them?

Lastly why can I not open any downloaded trial software from Adobe.  (Illustrator, Photoshop, and GoLive.

Thanks 
Eddie Robbins


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## cybergoober (Jan 30, 2005)

http://www.thedashboarder.com


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## fryke (Jan 30, 2005)

Are you sure you're talking about the not-released-yet Tiger operating system (Mac OS X 10.4)?


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## er48072 (Jan 30, 2005)

Thank you I am going to  download the widgets later today.  Thank you.

Eddie


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## fryke (Feb 1, 2005)

Apple has seeded a 560 KB update through Software Update: 8A351B is the newest build of the client version. Dunno about Server, although I _guess_ it's the same, really. Can anybody confirm Server?


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## fryke (Feb 1, 2005)

To those who wonder: The iBook definitely doesn't fit the graphics card needs for those fancy new effects. Basically, everything works, but for example, you won't get the nice ripple effect when adding a widget in Dashboard. Otherwise, the build 8A351B runs quite fine.


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## Decado (Feb 1, 2005)

i had a nice experience with panthers fast user switching on an old imac. Sure i didnt get the fancy cube-thing, but what i got was instant switching. if Steve Jobs had been in the room he would have said "Bom".


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## andychrist (Feb 1, 2005)

Okay, so here's a stupid question: Since Tiger will use F keys and hot corners to activate its new features, does that mean that Tiger has abandoned Expose (which is now using the same keys and corners)?


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## texanpenguin (Feb 1, 2005)

Andychrist:

No; Exposé uses F9, F10 and F11. For ages Dashboard used F12 (and seeing as I'm not a developer, I can't corroborate this for later releases), but at the MWSF keynote, Steve used an icon in the Dock for Dashboard, as is the case on the Apple website video tutorials. As for hot corners, well they've always been optionally set by the user. I have the left corner as Screensaver and the right as Exposé All Windows. Tiger would, I imagine, just add Dashboard to the list of features you can set with the hot corners.

I've noticed on the latest screenshots and videos around the web that the Spotlight button is far nicer and more minimal. Gone are the large blue caps on either side of the bar; gone is the insane shininess of the menu itself. I'm very impressed with the simple new Spotlight launch button. Is this change reflected in the newest developer builds?

Based on the way the Apple site is going into video tutorials on the usage of Tiger's features, I'm seeing it being released in March or April, with possible application updates in minor 10.4.x updates. I'd say that by June we'll be all using 10.4.2 at least.

Of course that's not based on actually USING Tiger.


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## fryke (Feb 1, 2005)

The F-Keys for Dashboard and Exposé are user-settable. You still can do anything you like with them. Just like Exposé now. Dashboard is in the same preference panel as Exposé.


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## andychrist (Feb 1, 2005)

Okay, but right now you have four different options (the three different Xpozay actions plus show/hide screen saver) any one of which may be applied to any of your screen's four corners; with the addition of a Dashboard, you won't have enough corners to exercise every possible option using hot corners.  I WANT MORE CORNERS GOSHDARNIT!


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## fryke (Feb 1, 2005)

Hmm... Maybe someone can find you a pentagonal or even octagonal screen...  ... Do you really USE every Exposé feature?


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## mslifkin (Feb 1, 2005)

On a PowerBook that has a backlit keyboard, as F9 and F10 are used to control the brightness of the backlight. I guess we'll have to use modifiers (Ctl, shift, Option).

Regards,
Marc


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## andychrist (Feb 1, 2005)

Yeah, and the F12 is currently the eject on my full size keyboard.  Now we need more F Keys to use all the new features of Tiger!   



			
				fryke said:
			
		

> Hmm... Maybe someone can find you a pentagonal or even octagonal screen...  ... Do you really USE every Exposé feature?



You bet I do, especially with my speedy Macally Trackball!  Oh well, if I turn one of the lenses of my bifocals 90 degrees it makes my screen appear to have eight corners.


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## Viro (Feb 1, 2005)

fryke said:
			
		

> Hmm... Maybe someone can find you a pentagonal or even octagonal screen...  ... Do you really USE every Exposé feature?



I don't see what so unbelievable about that . There are only 3 features, and I use them pretty much all the time.


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## Decado (Feb 1, 2005)

jepp. me too. i constantly use F10 in Safari, par exemple. It's great to keep track on downloads by fast exposing the downloadwindow (i never click it, i just glance at it while it is small and then back to the mainwindow again).
i'm a bit disturbed by the new dashboard-icon-in-dock-thing. is it optional or must dashboard be running as an application for me to be able to use the shortcuts?


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## Captain Code (Feb 1, 2005)

andychrist said:
			
		

> Yeah, and the F12 is currently the eject on my full size keyboard.  Now we need more F Keys to use all the new features of Tiger!



Well, it's about time those F keys are put to some use.  Usually they go unused.


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## fryke (Feb 1, 2005)

Yup. Just start at F8 instead of F9, or F7 instead of F8. No problem here... Also for the download window in Safari, I just use the regular Cmd-Opt-L, as I keep my hands on the keyboard anyways... A quick Cmd-W closes the window again. No need to keep it open. I mainly use Exposé to unveil my (cluttered) desktop.


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## andychrist (Feb 1, 2005)

Well I spent twenty clams on FunKeysX just so I could enable all my F keys and by golly I'm using them all.  And when I'm flinging files around (with drag and drop) of course one of my hands is not on the keyboard.  (I also tend to work with my head propped up by my left arm and my cat curled up on my right arm, leaving just enough play to wiggle my fingers over the trackball...) ::sleepy::


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## btoth (Feb 1, 2005)

mslifkin said:
			
		

> On a PowerBook that has a backlit keyboard, as F9 and F10 are used to control the brightness of the backlight. I guess we'll have to use modifiers (Ctl, shift, Option).
> 
> Regards,
> Marc



The current OS has the option to use the F-keys normally and use FN for the screen controls, etc. instead of the default backwards way for the portables.


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## mslifkin (Feb 1, 2005)

btoth said:
			
		

> The current OS has the option to use the F-keys normally and use FN for the screen controls, etc. instead of the default backwards way for the portables.



Wow, thanks! That's very cool. Now Expose can have F9, F10, and F11 as originally designed. Thanks again.

Regards,
Marc


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## fryke (Feb 2, 2005)

Isn't the meaning of automatic keyboard and display light thingie that it'd be automatic and wouldn't need those keys so much, anyway?  But that's majorly off-topic by now...

Must say: 8A351B is the first build I've managed to actually _use_ for a bit of time now. On the iBook. There are still many things to do as of now, though. For example, Mail.app 2.0 doesn't seem to taky any signatures. And I've heard that if you try and upgrade a Panther build with a lot of Mail to Tiger, Mail keeps on crashing.

Dashboard's widgets don't seem to be very stable in this build, too. My stickies don't keep their text and I can't copy/paste from outside to a sticky note.


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## Decado (Feb 2, 2005)

is it illegal to post any small screenshots?
i'm curious about the new mail-buttons. i've only seen the quality-compressed video on apples tigerpage and they didnt look very good there.
do they look better in real life?


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## cybergoober (Feb 2, 2005)

Decado said:
			
		

> is it illegal to post any small screenshots?
> i'm curious about the new mail-buttons. i've only seen the quality-compressed video on apples tigerpage and they didnt look very good there.
> do they look better in real life?



Apples says you can't post screenshots.


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## Decado (Feb 2, 2005)

does that not mean that we, o my brothers, already are breaking the rules of the mighty apple in the sky? or at least that a few men who walk amongst us do? |/theatrical]


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## fryke (Feb 2, 2005)

We don't do screenshots, we just talk a bit.


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## Decado (Feb 2, 2005)

ok. talking is nice.
so... do the new buttons in mail fit with other GUI-elements in tiger or are they a third kind? (i count the safari-style buttons as one kind and the buttons that are in sherlock and in the preferences window of iphoto/itunes/finder as another kind.


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## fryke (Feb 2, 2005)

They're a new kind, currently, but Mail's look is being changed from build to build. I guess that might be the main focus of the interface designers at Apple right now. As we speak. So to speak. I generally like Mail's new look, but it definitely doesn't 'belong' to Tiger's Aqua or Tiger's Brushed Metal looks.

Whether Mail will just stand out from every other application on Mac OS X when Tiger's released or developers get a chance of using that look as a third option or Brushed Metal goes Susan (this third look) isn't currently known. At least not to me.


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## Decado (Feb 2, 2005)

i think aqua will turn into susan for no other reason than there is hardly any application made by apple left that is neither metal nor Susan.
they really just have Mail and Preferences and they are now Susan.

oh... except Pages, Keynote and TextEdit 

any changes in tigers TextEdit?


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## fryke (Feb 2, 2005)

And don't forget about Finder windows. Not all of them are brushed. 

TextEdit looks the same as in Panther. The new features are, AFAICS, what texthandling in OS X gets: For example MS Word format improvements like tables (although I don't think TextEdit will ever become 'the' Word replacement now Apple has Pages).


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## RGrphc2 (Feb 2, 2005)

So is this gonna be the last build before Tiger is released???


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## Decado (Feb 2, 2005)

shouldn't there be a beta?
anyway i was just thinking about the fourth GUI-style that has been popping up lately... drum roll... the black-transparent-window-with-white-text-and-a-grey/white-x-in-the-corner-thingy.
First time i saw it was in dashboard. Then all the suddenly it is all over iPhoto05. and now they have changed dashboard and the (beautiful) widget window into a less subtle thing.
i would love if this new "Black Glass"-look was used in a consistent way in tiger.


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## fryke (Feb 2, 2005)

Well first: No, there's quite certainly going to be a few more builds before release. This is late alpha, early beta we're talking here. Nothing release-ready. And Decado: What do you mean by "shouldn't there be a beta"? There _are_ betas out for ADC members. And no, there's not going to be a public beta version of Tiger.

That 'black glass' look is not per se a fourth look. It's what you get when you Cmd-Tab through your applications in Panther, for example, although a bit darker. Only used for visual overlays.


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## Decado (Feb 2, 2005)

what i meant with "shouldnt there be a beta"?
it was just my way of hinting to RGrphc2 that there probably will be a lot more builds since we are still in alpha. i didnt want to write "there will be a beta" since i'm not the right person to write such a thing since i'm not an ADC member and don't really know. So i choose to phrase it like i did to encourage other people such as yourself to give a more elaborated answer. ok? 

but earlier the 'black glass' have just been a divider or something to emphasize the real message or "visual overlays" as you write. Now they are proper windows. well. just a lot of black glass lately. the new video ichat reflects in black glass and the new powerbooks on apples frontpage reflects in black glass.


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## fryke (Feb 2, 2005)

ah, okay...(beta). i'm not so sure apple will even DO 8Bxx builds. It seems to me as if they changed the numbering/naming scheme. With Cheetah, Puma, Jaguar and Panther, it was wholly different. The "alpha quality builds" were in the C, D, E, F range already. With Tiger, we've ONLY seen A builds so far - and MUCH higher in numbers. Jaguar Final was 6C115 iirc, and Panther Final was 7B85. So the 'B' is definitely not for 'beta'.


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## RGrphc2 (Feb 2, 2005)

fryke said:
			
		

> ah, okay...(beta). i'm not so sure apple will even DO 8Bxx builds. It seems to me as if they changed the numbering/naming scheme. With Cheetah, Puma, Jaguar and Panther, it was wholly different. The "alpha quality builds" were in the C, D, E, F range already. With Tiger, we've ONLY seen A builds so far - and MUCH higher in numbers. Jaguar Final was 6C115 iirc, and Panther Final was 7B85. So the 'B' is definitely not for 'beta'.



and this is why i would never be a developer, too damn confusing...for us "normal" folks,  ::ha::  so it's looking like a june release...


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## Viro (Feb 3, 2005)

Developers rarely care about the version scheme. They're more interested in coding .


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## fryke (Feb 3, 2005)

Yeah, imagine someone at Adobe: "I should really get to that new Photoshop filter, but that new Tiger build's build number is really confusing me..."


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## cybergoober (Feb 4, 2005)

AHEM!!

8A369 seeded


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## chevy (Feb 4, 2005)

fryke said:
			
		

> And don't forget about Finder windows. Not all of them are brushed.
> 
> TextEdit looks the same as in Panther. The new features are, AFAICS, what texthandling in OS X gets: For example MS Word format improvements like tables (although I don't think TextEdit will ever become 'the' Word replacement now Apple has Pages).



Isn't it possible that new applications have a hidden variable that will take a new skin when Tiger is final ? Their final skin may be in Tiger (instead of being in the application).


----------



## fryke (Feb 4, 2005)

I know, I know I'm late. Was out playing pool. Thread title updated according to the new builds...


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## fryke (Feb 4, 2005)

Just updated from 8A351B to 8A369 on my iBook. And everything seems much more finished suddenly. While I don't really know how many days are between those two builds at Apple, I'd say they're definitely polishing things now.
For the first time in Tiger, German localisation is not only in place but also complete. Dashboard now has this special 'Dock' you've seen at MWSF. However: Stickies in Dashboard still doesn't take my copy&paste stuff from outside Dashboard, for example, and the close-widgets (there you go, bad naming-scheme...) only appear when you show the Dashboard-Dock.

Things are looking good in these first few minutes. I'll take my iBook with me to Germany this weekend. Hope it won't let me down until I'm back home on Sunday night. This'll be a nice test...


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## cybergoober (Feb 4, 2005)

Indeed. Looking really nice so far. Upgraded as well.

New Dashboard is sweeeet


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## er48072 (Feb 4, 2005)

I have downloaded the free trials of the Adobe Suite of products but cannot get them to work on the my 10.4 machine but have no problem with them on the 10.3.7.  
I also have a Lacie drive attached to my laptop and when I installed them and used the Lacie as 10.3.7 I could run the apps of Adobe from there as long as I am on the 10.3.7 side but once I switch back to Tiger I cannot get it to run it starts and then bounces and then nothing.  Even though I am following the same procedure as I did with the Lacie hooked up.

Eddie Robbins
248-417-0017

Thank you in advance.


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## fryke (Feb 5, 2005)

Adobe (non trial) applications are running very fine for me on Tiger.


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## Decado (Feb 5, 2005)

Nice that the new version feels nice 
a couple of questions:
1) is the new dashboard-dock smooth on an iBook? Does it feel quick?

2) has it replaced the old floating dashboard-dock?


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## gup (Feb 6, 2005)

Anyone else have any problems with the dl of the 8a369 dmg?

Having probs getting it to "behave". The documents and apps appear to not be recognizing themselves...

Also, any news on how to install T Server on an iPod? I'd like to tinker with it on a different drive and iPods the only candidate I've got. An earlier build installed just fine on the iPod... No dice since that build worked (two or three releases ago).

Any all help appreciated.

gup


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## cj.one (Feb 7, 2005)

What about the the Macromedia MX 2004 product suite -does in run smoothly on the 8A369?

BTW: Anybody else experienced an error while installing 8A369. I get an error like there's an error in the .dmg i burned. So i'm currently downloading it again.


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## fryke (Feb 7, 2005)

It's not recommended to use an iPod as a Mac OS X system volume, since the drive almost never can spin down, getting the iPod too hot, too fast. But you might have to totally reset your iPod before being able to install a system on it again... Tiger Server even, eh? ...

Macromedia: Haven't got any, sorry.


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## fryke (Feb 8, 2005)

About the error at install time that the dmg is in some way corrupted... Never seen that, although I always skip the media check at the very beginning.


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## cj.one (Feb 8, 2005)

fryke said:
			
		

> About the error at install time that the dmg is in some way corrupted... Never seen that, although I always skip the media check at the very beginning.



I found the error... I have an error on my disk so i need to totally wipe my disk. So i just ordered an external disk so i can backup my current disk.


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## er48072 (Feb 8, 2005)

Where did you get 8a369 from I have looked everywhere.  Please help

thank you in advance.

Eddie

I have tried the software update and I have tried search in Apple Developer.

I have loaded 8a351 and about to load a seed for that.


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## fryke (Feb 9, 2005)

Read this forum's rules very carefully. NO questions about where to get Tiger seeds. NO talk about warez etc. This is the first and last warning, er48072. Next step would be banning you.


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## er48072 (Feb 9, 2005)

Sorry, it won't happen again, I just had been up for way to many hours and I have since gone through the right channels to get the answers I was looking for.  Sorry for the breech and I can assure you it won't happen again as your whole forum is way to helpful for me to cause myself to get banned.  Thank you for the warning.  From now on my comments will be on the workings of the OS.  Like I had stated I am new and just want to soak as much in as I possibly can.  I am also joining a Mac User Group, to help in my transition to the Mac world.   

Eddie


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## Decado (Feb 9, 2005)

Welcome to the forums, Eddie!


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## fryke (Feb 9, 2005)

Yep. Welcome.


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## ylon (Feb 9, 2005)

Been having issues with Mail.  Seems that I've got something going on with my some messages or mailboxes that are giving the new Mail fits.  Has anyone experienced this?  Or does anyone know of a way to thoroughly check all messages and mailboxes for possible errors or corruption?


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## fryke (Feb 9, 2005)

Friend of mine had problems initially with Mail in Tiger 8A369 when updating from his regular 10.3.7 machine. Guess part of the mail database got corrupted at updating time... Can you check with a clean system? Mine's working fine - apart from signatures not being cast automatically, that is...


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## er48072 (Feb 9, 2005)

It is nice to be here.


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## er48072 (Feb 10, 2005)

I have had problems the dmg opening as well for the latest update so now i am just checking and seeing if it a browser issue.  Doing it this time in Safari instead of Firefox.  I have my very firt MUG meeting tonight at 7:30 and I hope to start in the future be of assistance to this group instead of just someone that keeps asking questions.


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## ylon (Feb 10, 2005)

I've tried gutting Mail multiple times and reimporting everything.  Works fine if you start with a blank setup, just cannot get anything imported properly.  I've tried both ways, dropping the old ~/Library/Mail in as well as performing an importation.  Guess I'll just have to hold tight until some more work is done in that area.


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## fryke (Feb 10, 2005)

Yep, that's what I meant: The import's not working fine. However: Working with a clean slate and just 'getting new mail' (not importing old ones) works fine for me.


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## cybergoober (Feb 10, 2005)

Here's how I got Mail to see all my old mail:

Leaving my ~/Library/Mail folder in place, I trashed -- _actually, I moved it out to my Desktop to make sure this worked first_ -- my ~/Library/Preferences/com.apple.Mail.plist file then re-created my accounts through Mail. As the accounts were created, the mailboxes would show up with all the previous messages still intact.

May not actually be a solution, but it seems to have worked for me. Before I did that Mail would just crash when I tried to open it unless I nuked everything first.


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## chrisjasper (Feb 11, 2005)

Here's an odd one with 8A369, I did an archive and install and when I opened mail (its an Exchange account), all the mail items were missing the subject and sender and had the delivery date of today. (i.e. every mail was blank in the list of mails except for the current date and time) You can open the mail and all the details are in the mail, but I have to open the mail before I can see what it is about.

Entourage 2004 still works fine.

I tried throwing the apple.com.mail.plist and the ~\library\mail folder and rebooting but the same thing happens when re-creating the account.

Any ideas anyone?


----------



## chrisjasper (Feb 11, 2005)

Hmmm, doesnt like ARD 2 either, launches and installs a lot of bits mainly with the word Panther in them (Panther Scripts e.t.c.), then shuts down when the install finishes.....
Run the 2.10 update and it doesnt even launch.


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## bobw (Feb 11, 2005)

Upgrade ARD to version 2.1 and see if that helps.


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## chrisjasper (Feb 11, 2005)

Nope, just does the expanding icon thing and disappears.


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## bobw (Feb 11, 2005)

Repair Disk, Repair Permissions.


----------



## chrisjasper (Feb 11, 2005)

No, same thing. It just refuses to launch.


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## bobw (Feb 11, 2005)

Try trashing the .plist.


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## chrisjasper (Feb 11, 2005)

Nope, still refuses to launch, has anyone else got it running on 369?


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## er48072 (Feb 11, 2005)

When I first converted it had all kinds of problems but since going to 369 have had no problems and that is to say I don't import though.  My messages are left on the server so when i start up it brings it all in for me and this is workinf fine now.


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## er48072 (Feb 11, 2005)

I found a great site for widgets by the way and if we are allow to post the link here i will share it.  there are over 905 of them.

my favorite is the ESPN tracker


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## fryke (Feb 13, 2005)

Depends on whether the 'widgets' are illegal in any way. But people can only use them, actually, when they're on Tiger, anyway. I've found many widgets not working right on Dashboard so far, mainly because they were written for earlier versions of Tiger... Did you mean http://www.thedashboarder.com/ ?


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## texanpenguin (Feb 15, 2005)

macosxrumors.com refers to the limited release of 8A378.

So that means a rename of this thread, yes? Anyone used it? There seem to be some complaints


----------



## fryke (Feb 15, 2005)

I haven't seen confirmation of that build anywhere. Have you?


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## Mephisto (Feb 15, 2005)

From what I understand it is available to seed partners (appleseed?) but not normal ADC members.  So 8A378 is not a general audience beta release.  All I can say with certainty is that it is not available to me as an ADC member.  <shrug/>


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## fryke (Feb 15, 2005)

Just got info that 'normal' ADC Select members get 8A369 by snail-mail - as expected. So I guess we'll see a new build in early March or so (for the March mailing) - unless Apple's going to speed up the seeds earlier.


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## IchiroBoston (Feb 18, 2005)

I cant run ARD 2 either, wont launch.
Also, all of the Tiger builds are not showing up in my ACD downloads anymore??


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## fryke (Feb 18, 2005)

Tiger 8A385 Client & Server seeded.


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## Decado (Feb 18, 2005)

big or small?


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## fryke (Feb 18, 2005)

According to testers, it has new desktop pictures.  ... I'm still downloading, so I can't really say anything about it...


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## Decado (Feb 18, 2005)

fryke said:
			
		

> According to testers, it has new desktop pictures.



oh, joy!  <<< not sarcatic, btw. 

maybe this means that they are slowly beginning to polish the look of 10.4.


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## fryke (Feb 18, 2005)

Could be. Although the 'A' and the high number still has me for some reason. It doesn't sound _right_ to me. Although it sure _would_ make sense to change that naming scheme so that 'A' actually belongs to the 10.4.0 version, B to the 10.4.1 version etc. ...


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## cybergoober (Feb 18, 2005)

The new "Black & White" collection of Desktop pics is quite nice...

That is all. For now.


----------



## ylon (Feb 18, 2005)

Hmm, well, things are looking more refined, still problems with Mail crashing and mdimport doesn't seem to be active on Server?  Perhaps I've not given it enough time, but something odd there.


----------



## ylon (Feb 18, 2005)

Also Server upgrade went very well it appears. From X.3.8->Tiger.


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## fryke (Feb 19, 2005)

Looking fine on first steps here... Spotlight initially again didn't wanna finish indexing, but now it seems it has. Or it's just using an unfinished index again...


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## Decado (Feb 19, 2005)

any changes in dashboard?
how well did the the dashboard dock perform on your iBook, fryke?


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## fryke (Feb 19, 2005)

the dock? well, performs well, but - at least in German - dashboard doesn't seem to work right in this build. iChat crashes on startup for me, too. (And yes I've done everything to try and get it to run, so don't ask...)


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## ylon (Feb 19, 2005)

Does anyone have any idea as to how to activate Spotlight or if it supposed to be disabled in Server?


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## cybergoober (Feb 19, 2005)

Command-Space by default.


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## ylon (Feb 19, 2005)

No, sorry, I don't mean how to pull up the Spotlight search bar, but rather how to enable the subsystem.  If someone on regular Mac OS X Client could look through /etc/hostconfig and search for anything pertaining to Spotlight or MD, Metadata, mdimporter, etc.  and let me know if it says anything that would be super.  It seems as though Spotlight indexing (mdimport) is turned off, yet it and mds are running.  Seems like it might somehow be deactivated to preserve speed of the server, however I just don't know.


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## ylon (Feb 19, 2005)

Still needing any thoughts on the above question, but is it just me or does Tiger smoke Panther in terms of IO speed?  Things are really seeming snappy, particularly in HD IO and CD/DVD IO.  I've not run any tests, but on an upgraded system I'm really feeling peppy.


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## frankf (Feb 20, 2005)

Is it just me, or has "Rendezvous" been replaced by "Bonjour?"  Specifically in Safari, in the Bookmarks preferences, and I'm pretty sure I saw it somewhere else, too, but I can't recall where, now...  I only noticed it in this seed 8A385, has it been this way in previous seeds?


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## Decado (Feb 20, 2005)

Bonjour is the new name for rendezvous. i hope more people know how to pronounce Bonjour than rendezvous


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## Captain Code (Feb 20, 2005)

That has to be the worst name ever.


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## frankf (Feb 20, 2005)

Why did they change it?  Were they sued, or something?  Bonjour doesn't make much more, if any more, sense that Rendezvous.  I guess they could call it "Parlez," and maybe people would get it because of the allusion to Pirates of the Caribbean.


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## Mephisto (Feb 20, 2005)

Yes Apple changed the name as part of a trademark dispute agreement.  I find it slightly disingenuous though since JXTA has used the term rendezvous for their peer points longer than Apple and is still using it.

Bonjour was chosen because a computer using zero conf networking services says "Hello"  when it enters the network.  Apple was originally going to rename it "OpenTalk" but changed it because "OpenTalk" sounded too technical.  I think open talk sounds better personally but what do I know?


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## Captain Code (Feb 20, 2005)

OpenTalk is way better.


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## btoth (Feb 20, 2005)

Why can't they just use what it's called everywhere else... ZeroConf.  I'd think a user could understand what that means when someone says "ZeroConf networking" rather than "Bonjour".  It sounds stupid to even say it in the same sentence as networking.


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## texanpenguin (Feb 21, 2005)

Rendezvous was such a perfect name for it; it was something spontaneous; easy, and sounded sexy and useful .

I don't think I'm going to like that name change :S.


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## Mephisto (Feb 21, 2005)

Personally I will call it OpenTalk or ZeroConf.  There were even a few articles out on ADC where they called it OpenTalk, I do not get why they changed it.  Bonjour just does not cut it for me. I can't even see the benefit from a marketing perspective to a normal user, but then again I am not in marketing.  

On an unrelated note, is anyone else having problems with the Dock locking in 8A385?   Other than Spotlight problems this is the first chronic issue I have had in the last 3 versions.  For some reason the dock keeps locking and I need to do a "killall Dock" to get it back.  I suspect it is when I am installing new apps. During normal use and coding it seems fine though.  For a beta anyway.

Dashboard and iChat are fine for me though.  (I always do a erase and install then reconfigure everything by hand.)


----------



## Decado (Feb 21, 2005)

Mephisto said:
			
		

> Personally I will call it OpenTalk or ZeroConf.  There were even a few articles out on ADC where they called it OpenTalk, I do not get why they changed it.  Bonjour just does not cut it for me. I can't even see the benefit from a marketing perspective to a normal user, but then again I am not in marketing.



yes it was because OpenTalk sounded to technical. it makes sense to someone who knows how networks work, but to the normal user the whole "talk" thing is not a good metaphor.


----------



## Decado (Feb 21, 2005)

that they went with french instead of english is probably to tie it in a cognitative way to rendezvous. makes it easier to see that it is the same thing... on the other hand they DID name exposé exposé and not expose. so maybe it is a second french wave


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## Decado (Feb 21, 2005)

i think it is kool by the way that the choose french names for some of their technologies. the whole technologybusiness is far too anglosaxian as it is. it makes it stand out. and we non englishspeaking countries have to live with the whole iPhoto, iMovie etc thing. so right back at you


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## frankf (Feb 21, 2005)

Yeah, the Dock has frozen up a couple of times for me, but not too badly, Safari crashed pretty hard for me once, too.  I did an import of my data from my Panther partition (after an erase and install) and that worked very well.  The new Tiger fur desktop pic is sexy as hell, too.

It's starting to feel pretty polished to me, but I still haven't done much serious work on it.  I usually go back to Panther for that.  But yesterday, I went through an entire team meeting for a class (~2.5 hours) working on Tiger, and the only things that happened were the Dock hanging, and Safari crashing.


----------



## Mephisto (Feb 21, 2005)

As a counterpoint I do not care if it is French, Italian, Japanese, Korean, Fharsi, or Pig-Latin.  Calling it "Hello" regardless of language does not seem like a meaningful moniker for an  adhoc networking protocol.

It is designed as a localized peer networking solution so how does "Bonjour" tell us anything about it?  Your computer says "hello" when it gets an address via DHCP.  The computer says "hello" each time it opens a web page, retrieves mail, etc...  How is ZeroConf networking broadcasting an availability message any more pertinent to "Bonjour"?  If there were levels of inference in the word/concept as there are with rendezvous I could understand, but there is not.  Perhaps "Yggdrasil" would work, but few would understand and even fewer would get the spelling right (I think I did.  ).  "Mu" would actally be pretty appropriate IMHO, but again has little meaning to western civilization.  The problem is Apple probably does not want to get caught in the stigma of "P2P"  else "PeerView" or some other such clever term would fit pretty well.  Hey, how about "OpenTalk" in the language of choice?


----------



## ylon (Feb 23, 2005)

Anyone experiencing issues with iPhoto 5 and Tiger?  Just had a huge library > 10000 images, freeze up and its chewing ~100% processor time.  rm'ing the plist preferences does not help either.


----------



## chrisjasper (Feb 24, 2005)

8a385 seems a little less stable than the previous builds for me, especially networking.


----------



## EvenStranger (Feb 24, 2005)

Ok... I feel dumb, but I have not been able to get the Tiger .dmg to burn properly on my 15" Powerbook (1.25, SuperDrive, 512MB RAM, 80GB HD). I have a valid ADC account, and the download appears to work properly, but when the file is finished downloading, there are no mountable volumes on the .dmg. Same with the DVD once it's burned. I don't like making DVDs into coasters. Any suggestions? Anyone else seen this? Thanks!

Neglected to mention that this has been true for the last two releases of Tiger.


----------



## cybergoober (Feb 25, 2005)

That seems to happen to me when I download the images with Firefox. If I download with Safari, the images seem to be fine. Weird.


----------



## EvenStranger (Feb 25, 2005)

That's probably it then... I was using FireFox. I'll try Safari this weekend and see what happens. Thanks!


----------



## ylon (Feb 25, 2005)

Well, had a similar problem a couple of releases ago with Server, but it has since been resolved.  Whenever that happens its a good idea to let Apple know through the Bug Report system, even though it might be related to Firefox.  I have found that iGetter works very well masquerading as Safari once you've started the d/l w/ Safari and grabbed the encoded URL.


----------



## ylon (Feb 25, 2005)

Also, lets start pounding Apple with requests to start an ADC/Apple employee only board through the ADC or Bug Report system so that we can all chat freely about issues and development questions.  Seems they are receptive to feedback as such.


----------



## cybergoober (Feb 25, 2005)

8A393 seeded...

They're really pumping them out now!


----------



## fryke (Feb 25, 2005)

Client only, so far. But I guess Server will follow on the heels of Client - like with earlier builds...


----------



## er48072 (Feb 25, 2005)

How many are you erasing your hard disk and starting over with each build as they are coming out faster and faster, or are you just upgrading?  If you are erasing then what is the advantage in that.

Thanks
eddie


----------



## fryke (Feb 25, 2005)

I'm just updating the builds on my iBook. Until that does end up in a non-working system, that is. With Jaguar and Panther betas I didn't have much trouble doing that. But then the iBook's not my main system and I don't have much on it, so reinstalling is much easier and faster than my regular system on the PB would be.

Erasing the disk (or archive/install) is 'better', since you'll get a cleanly installed Tiger system with the newest build. Apple doesn't really pay attention that the upgrade from build to build works, so thinks _can_ go wrong.


----------



## cybergoober (Feb 25, 2005)

I've "Archive & Installed" the last two builds...


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## fryke (Feb 26, 2005)

Tiger fur desktop picture.   

I'm going to reboot the build, because after the update from 8A385, the first boot was really, really slow (first time for me, the other ones were 'better'). So I'll check to see whether that was installation-related or 'common' for this build on my machine...


----------



## fryke (Feb 26, 2005)

Okay. Rebooting was fast. Nice.


----------



## Decado (Feb 26, 2005)

i thought they had dropped the analogies to real life tigers with this build (the black packaging et al. but maybe that wont be the package. just a placeholder)
is the Fur desktop new to this build? it is not the default alternative, is it?


----------



## fryke (Feb 26, 2005)

Dunno about defaults. Updating from build to build usually keeps your user settings... But I guess the default's still Aqua Blue.


----------



## chevy (Feb 26, 2005)

fryke said:
			
		

> Tiger fur desktop picture.
> 
> I'm going to reboot the build, because after the update from 8A385, the first boot was really, really slow (first time for me, the other ones were 'better'). So I'll check to see whether that was installation-related or 'common' for this build on my machine...



Can you post small (100x100 ?) sample of your fur desktop ?


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## fryke (Feb 26, 2005)

I don't guess Apple cares whether the screenshot would be 1024*768 or 100*100, Chevy.  ... It's Tiger fur. From orange-brown on top to quite dark at the bottom. Horizontal rather than vertical stripes. Looking good. 

There are also some other new desktop pictures in this build, some of which I quite like. Also new screensavers, though nothing really groundbreaking. (I.e. picture shows.)

I like the RSS-feed 3D viewer screen saver the most. I can look at my own headlines from http://macnews.net.tc/ ... And it automatically gives the articles numbers, so you can hit "3" while in the screensaver and it automatically takes you to the webpage... Doesn't replace a full RSS reader of course, but still a nice thing to look at.


----------



## Decado (Feb 26, 2005)

fryke said:
			
		

> It's Tiger fur. From orange-brown on top to quite dark at the bottom. Horizontal rather than vertical stripes. Looking good.



i always thought the jaguar fur looked really pimp (and that is a negative thing for me). Or maybe "raggare".

rant: i dont know if you got "raggare" in any other countries. But they are best described as people driving around in old american cars with giant cotton dices hanging from the mirror and they mainly dress in light jeans clothes. open shirts and hairy chests. they usually got some kind of mustasch, and look kind of sleezy. They live for their cars. and beer.



			
				fryke said:
			
		

> I like the RSS-feed 3D viewer screen saver the most.



what is 3d about it? (trying to picture it).


----------



## Cat (Feb 26, 2005)

> Tiger fur desktop picture.





"It's just the '80 coming back ..."


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## cybergoober (Feb 26, 2005)

There are also two new Desktop Picture collections: "Black and White" and "Plants"

The "Black and White" set is quite nice.


----------



## er48072 (Feb 26, 2005)

The last installs I have done a clean install and reformatted the drive but with with 8A393 I just did an update... HOWEVER... my spotlight has been indexing for 2 straight days and so now I reinstalled with the second of saving old files and creating a new system to see if that works. As I type this it says it takes 12 hours, wait it just went up to 18 hours.

Also wanted to let all you possible programmers this site

http://www.mymacwidgets.com/

There you can upload your widgets and they can sell them for you and get them out to the communith.  It might be worth a look.

Eddie Robbins


----------



## matt5115 (Mar 3, 2005)

I did an upgrade install from 8A369 to 8A393.

Now Spotlight will not find everything on my hard drive.  It looked liked it did a full index.  For items it does not find, example a folder, if I change the folder name or add a space, then it will find it. 

Is there a way to re-index the hard drive?

Also, I have a 200 gig firewire drive.  As soon as I plug it in, it starts to index.  I know this is the default.  Is there a way to control spotlight, to tell it when to index?


----------



## fryke (Mar 4, 2005)

Well, then do try a clean install. Or simply wait for the next build... Right now, Spotlight doesn't seem to have any user-settable preferences besides keyboard shortcuts for the Spotlight field.


----------



## matt5115 (Mar 4, 2005)

Thanks.

On the next build I was going to do a clean install.

Great forum!

Thanks again.

Matthew


----------



## laurris (Mar 8, 2005)

hello,

I' ve been looking at the Spotlight documentation and it seems that it is quite easy to make a mdimporter. 
I would be great to make one for rss feeds. Example: you search for a word in the spotlight finder bar and it gives you results for titles of news items in any rss feed on your disk.
Unfortunaltely it's Carbon and I code in Cocoa.
Did anybody start playing with the spotlight sdk and the mdimporter example ?
Any source code ?


----------



## Tim6 (Mar 9, 2005)

Nagging question. I havent had time to download the latest build of Tiger, infact  its a couple of months out of date, and the version that i have isnt able to index or search pc volumes through spotlight. This is really annoying, and i was wondering if the latest version is able to say index pc mounted volumes. Because i am in a corporate invironment where the majority or people are on PC's and i administrate a small macintosh department for a huge corporate company. Sometimes it is vital to find files on the pc network.

Can anyone help please and thankyou


----------



## ylon (Mar 11, 2005)

<whistling a tune> When in the world are we going to see another build?


----------



## Decado (Mar 15, 2005)

a question about spotlight:
in the movie on apples tiger-page where they search for "yosemite" and then get a separate window with all related files and mails separated, there is a small play-button on the image section.
is this some kind of instant slideshow option?


----------



## cybergoober (Mar 15, 2005)

yes


----------



## Decado (Mar 15, 2005)

short and sweet 
does this mean that finder now, theoretically, supports the same kind of instant-slideshow-from-the-content-of-a-folder that the XP people always are bragging about?


----------



## dougal.s (Mar 15, 2005)

Hi guys (My first post here).

 I too had problems with indexing not working with the latest build (8A393). I found that you can use mdimport through the terminal.

 Just type mdimport into spotlight, and click on the terminal looking search result. That will open terminal and thus give you the path to mdimport.

 This will give you the list of flags that can be associated with it.

 I used: $ mdimport -f -V /

This forced it to index my root directory, and use verbose output so I can tell what it is up to (doesn't tell you much). It uses about 15% of my proccessor on average, but jumps up to 45 occasionally.

 Will see how long it takes.

Hope this of some help.

Dougal.


----------



## frankf (Mar 16, 2005)

New build of client and server out, 8A414

I'm dl'in now...


----------



## cybergoober (Mar 16, 2005)

Bah, beat me to it


----------



## fryke (Mar 16, 2005)

Don't see server there, only client... Is it on the new downloads page for you?


----------



## fryke (Mar 16, 2005)

Ah, see it now. Sorry.


----------



## fryke (Mar 16, 2005)

Notebook users beware: "When operating on battery power, applications and menu extras may occasionally hang after waking the system from sleep. Workaround: plug in before sleeping, or set your Energy Saver preference so that your system will not sleep under battery power.  If applications hang on wake from sleep, you may need to force reboot your system if an orderly shutdown from the Apple menu is not possible." --- Doesn't sound like that'll be ideal for my iBook... But I'll try it anyway.


----------



## Decado (Mar 16, 2005)

doesnt sound like it is nearly finished either, as some rumour sites are saying. that was a really stupid bug.

no changes in this version except bug fixes (good and bad)? no more eyecandy?


----------



## fryke (Mar 16, 2005)

Gotta read the right rumour sites.


----------



## matt5115 (Mar 17, 2005)

I did an upgrade install to 8a414 from the last build.  It started and stopped indexing 4 or 5 times.  After the final indexing, everything is indexed.  All the indexing problems with the last build are gone.

Matthew

Also, when I booted up for the first time, there was a keyboard setup.


----------



## fryke (Mar 19, 2005)

Upgraded from 8A393 to 8A414, too, on my iBook. I noticed that Dashboard seems to work better now. The only thing there that gets on my nerves right now is that the Weather widget seems to someway get false information - or it doesn't correctly use Celsius degrees. It's about 15 degrees Celsius here, yet the widget tells me -4.  (and no, it's not set to Fahrenheit, where I see 24 degrees...) ... i just checked accuweather.com's website. Gives more accurate info. Guess it's the widget's code then?


----------



## verlorenengel (Mar 20, 2005)

This new build is rock solid for me...

The previous build I had major issues with Safari crashing 7 times a day; I have not had it crash once and I've been running it over 24 hours now... that is a _good_ thing.


----------



## fallenstarinc (Mar 20, 2005)

hey guys! 
im so excited! i was wondering for those if you who have tested tiger...how much of a speed increase are we probably going to see from panther? is window resizing better? scrolling smoother? how about application launch? just over all stuff!! i sure hope so...the speed bump is always the best feature in my mind....welll one of the best anyway...

thanks!!!
Mike


----------



## Decado (Mar 20, 2005)

fallenstarinc said:
			
		

> the speed bump is always the best feature in my mind



according to this article games seem to be faster:
http://www.cafemacs.com/#t560


----------



## Viro (Mar 20, 2005)

Decado said:
			
		

> according to this article games seem to be faster:
> http://www.cafemacs.com/#t560



Call me cynical, but those results look kinda suspicious. One machine was running 800x600 at 20 - 30 fps. And the one running Tiger was running 1024x768 at 35 - 40 fps. Why not use the same resolution for both? As it is, you're likely comparing apples and oranges. Poor way to do a benchmark, IMHO.


----------



## Captain Code (Mar 20, 2005)

I think they did it to show that in Tiger it could run at those higher settings without any degrading performance.  Who wants to try and disprove it?


----------



## verlorenengel (Mar 20, 2005)

Window resizing is dramatically improved imho.


----------



## Captain Code (Mar 20, 2005)

verlorenengel said:
			
		

> Window resizing is dramatically improved imho.



Compared to what?  Just compared to Panther?


----------



## fryke (Mar 21, 2005)

Resizing a Quicktime window on my iBook is dramatically faster than with Panther. (And earlier betas of Tiger, but those were flakey at best in playing QT content, when I tried...)


----------



## G5 Medic (Mar 22, 2005)

How much % of CPU power is WindowServer and Kernel_task using in 8A414?


----------



## verlorenengel (Mar 23, 2005)

WindowServer doing nothing: 0.8 cpu%

WindowServer dragging a window around quickly: 27%

kernel_task doing nothingg 0.6 %cpu

kernel_task doing find / and dragging window around: 1.8%cpu


----------



## frankf (Mar 23, 2005)

Just got an ADC mailing that *another* seed is released.  Only the client this time, it would seem, 8A420...going to read the notes now...

EDIT:  Only one known issue, with some iBooks not booting of the DVD properly.

Very interesting.


----------



## fryke (Mar 23, 2005)

Yup. One issue only. I guess the GM is nearing... Please post your reports here about the build. Quality? Issues?


----------



## cybergoober (Mar 23, 2005)

Getting ready to install. Going to try an upgrade over 414...

-edit- Looking good so far. No problems yet.


----------



## G5 Medic (Mar 23, 2005)

verlorenengel said:
			
		

> WindowServer doing nothing: 0.8 cpu%
> 
> WindowServer dragging a window around quickly: 27%
> 
> ...



My kernel_task keeps using about 6%cpu. Any idea on what might be happening? I tried to eliminate most of my background apps. 

Also, does anyone know if the new Core Image and Core Video APIs will work with the NVIDIA FX 5200 Ultra? I read the new graphics APIs allow the computer to process most, if not all, graphics rendering directly on the video card's GPU, rather than taxing the computer's own CPU, freeing up processor cycles for other tasks.


----------



## Decado (Mar 24, 2005)

it was on the list of suported GPUs before they removed the list.


----------



## fallenstarinc (Mar 24, 2005)

does this build seem more polished or solid to anyone? or basically the same just without bugs? i wonder if its possible 8a420 will make GM


----------



## cj.one (Mar 24, 2005)

fryke said:
			
		

> Yup. One issue only. I guess the GM is nearing... Please post your reports here about the build. Quality? Issues?



Well this build seems very fast and stable. However there is an issue in Adobe Photoshop CS where it sometimes freezes. Then i have to force-quit (and that even sometimes don't work). I guess it is an issue that Adobe have to correct and not Apple.

Else a very stable build.


----------



## frankf (Mar 24, 2005)

I have this strange issue where a generic app will pop up into my Dock.  I'm not in Tiger at the moment, I have a test in about an hour, but to my recollections, it's name implies that it has something to do with the system-wide spell checker.  I force quit it, and spell checking still seems to work, though.  Just an odd little quirk.  

There also still seem to be a few bugs with iDisk syncing.  It doesn't want to take my iSync data from Panther, and in the error message it pops up, my clicks go through the window, which is a little weird.

Also, when did they include the graphing calculator thing in Utilities?  I remember it was there in 8A414, was that the first?  That thing is quite fun, and useful for the paper I'm writing!


----------



## fryke (Mar 24, 2005)

It's also got the "pre-release" in the "About this Mac" window. We'll see that disappear with the first FC build, I guess. (It was like that with Jaguar and Panther iirc.) I'd say it's quite polished, but smaller quirks remain. For example: When I updated from 10.3.8 to 10.4 on my PB, the assistant comes up (nice new welcome video and music, btw. ... now we gotta find out who did _that_ track - guess not Röysköpp again?) and the keyboard focus is sometimes quite off... If the 14 days period from GM to release-party still holds true and the 15th of April _is_ the day, this means they still have a little over a week to fix the final few things...


----------



## StarBuck (Mar 24, 2005)

Has anyone been able to locate the new intro movie for Tiger in the system?


----------



## fallenstarinc (Mar 24, 2005)

you really seem to be on top of your game fryke! so in your opinion is this a really good update? (tiger in whole)? i havnt used anything since the wwdc preview...how much of a difference is there between what were seeing now, and that way back then?


----------



## btoth (Mar 24, 2005)

Does Tiger finally support booting OS X off of a USB hard drive?


----------



## cybergoober (Mar 25, 2005)

Not that I'm aware of...


----------



## bobw (Mar 25, 2005)

From Apple;

Beginning with the Power Mac G4 (AGP Graphics) and the iMac (Slot-Loading), two new features to USB are most apparent: support for USB audio devices and booting from USB drive


----------



## fryke (Mar 25, 2005)

now if only one could install Mac OS X on a 512 MB stick.


----------



## 5drinkminimum (Mar 25, 2005)

Can someone tell me if there has been a change to Mail.app's appearance in recent builds?

Just curious if the buttons/button alignment from MWSF are staying.


----------



## fryke (Mar 25, 2005)

Staying. Although there _might_ have been a slight cleaning, colour hue change or something... But basically, it looks like two months ago.


----------



## fallenstarinc (Mar 25, 2005)

fryke said:
			
		

> Staying. Although there _might_ have been a slight cleaning, colour hue change or something... But basically, it looks like two months ago.



What about the newest build compared to the wwdc builds? thats all ive used...way back when...is there a HUGE diffrence? or just smaller differences? is speed much improved? the look of the system changed?


----------



## 5drinkminimum (Mar 25, 2005)

fallenstarinc said:
			
		

> What about the newest build compared to the wwdc builds? thats all ive used...way back when...is there a HUGE diffrence? or just smaller differences? is speed much improved? the look of the system changed?



Slight visual changes. Just check out Tiger (apple.com)


----------



## fallenstarinc (Mar 25, 2005)

5drinkminimum said:
			
		

> Slight visual changes. Just check out Tiger (apple.com)



What about speed improvements with 8a420 compared to the wwdc build?


----------



## Zammy-Sam (Mar 25, 2005)

Not sure if this was asked before, but did anyone here test the speed of 64bit Tiger on a G5 and 32bit on a <G4? Anything significant?


----------



## fryke (Mar 25, 2005)

You mean whether a 64bit G5 was any faster than a 32bit G3?  ... What exactly should be 'speed tested' here?


----------



## fallenstarinc (Mar 25, 2005)

howcome everyone keeps avioding my question?


----------



## verlorenengel (Mar 26, 2005)

Maybe they have not tried wwdc build?

Comparatively, the last three builds I have tried are quicker or as quick as Panther.


----------



## Zammy-Sam (Mar 26, 2005)

fryke said:
			
		

> You mean whether a 64bit G5 was any faster than a 32bit G3?  ... What exactly should be 'speed tested' here?


Iirc G4 is 32bit as well.  So, I thought of a test like G5 1.6ghz vs G4 1.64ghz. I know, the cpus are not equal in performance, but still there are some tests that might direct (or not) to the benefits of the 64bit technology. Just wondered if anyone every tested that.


----------



## Viro (Mar 26, 2005)

You're not going to be able to extrapolate that result to the G3 though. Reason being that the G4 is going to be faster than a G3 at the same clockspeed, particularly when floating point is used. If Altivec is used, the G3 is completely blown out of the water.

It's going to be hard to test the performance of Tiger objectively, since you wouldn't know what the OS is doing under the hood.


----------



## cj.one (Mar 29, 2005)

Well 8A425 is out and i've just installed it. In 'About This Mac' it dosent says 'Prerelease' anymore. So i guess we are damn close a GM version.


----------



## fryke (Mar 29, 2005)

Sounds good to me. I'll install it this afternoon... If I have the time, that is...


----------



## fryke (Mar 29, 2005)

Did you update from 8A420 or an earlier build or clean install/archive install? ... I wonder when/if they'll "unpossible" this. IIRC updating to the final version was possible with Panther betas but not with Jaguar and earlier...


----------



## cj.one (Mar 29, 2005)

fryke said:
			
		

> Did you update from 8A420 or an earlier build or clean install/archive install? ... I wonder when/if they'll "unpossible" this. IIRC updating to the final version was possible with Panther betas but not with Jaguar and earlier...



Hi Fryke,
I did an archive install over the previous 8A420 build. I could also have chosen upgrade -so this option is still there. I seems even more stabil to me (or maybe it's because i know it's a newer build) -very fast. Don't know what else have been done to system -but i guess optimizing, optimizing and optimizing


----------



## Captain Code (Mar 29, 2005)

cj.one said:
			
		

> Well 8A425 is out and i've just installed it. In 'About This Mac' it dosent says 'Prerelease' anymore. So i guess we are damn close a GM version.




Good news.  Can't wait till GM!


----------



## Decado (Mar 29, 2005)

i read somewhere that a colour-pdf was released with this build, and that it was probably the one that was going to be printed. if so, is there a frontpage to this "manual" included in th pdf? the reason i'm wondering this is that i am interested if they went with the steel "X" on black or if they choose the tiger fur.


----------



## fryke (Mar 29, 2005)

Steel. Same for 8A420 and 8A425. I still wonder what the music in the 'welcome' movie is... Want to get a hold of that song... Anybody got an idea?


----------



## frankf (Mar 30, 2005)

A few little notes.  (These regard build 8A425.)  Generally very good.  Very responsive.  I don't know if it's as fast as Panther, though...odd.  Maybe it is, and my machine's just freakin' out.  Maybe I need to clean out my user library, or something.

I do have some issues withe the Get Info panel in the Finder, specifically with the permissions sections.  I was trying to mess with some permissions (more on why later), and once I chose a new user/group (my own), I could NOT change the read/write/read+write pop down menus.  Also, once I clicked the lock, they switched back to the old user/group pair (system/admin), although I checked via the Terminal and they had been changed.  Odd.

I was messing around with all this on my /sw directory (Fink) so that I could get it in the Privacy section of Spotlight, 'cause I don't want to see all those files in Spotlight ;-).  This is a little more difficult than I thought, and I'm not sure about it, yet.  First off, the privacy is global, for all users, and anyone can add a folder to the global preference given that they have _write_ access to the folder.  (At least, that's been my experience.)  Given this, I think there should have been two types of "privacy preferences."  One that is something like "I don't want other users to see these files" and another that is "I myself don't care to search through these files everytime I use spotlight."  That way I could add my personal files to the first, and add /sw to the second.  That seems to make more sense to me.

That's it, so far.


----------



## fallenstarinc (Mar 30, 2005)

frankf said:
			
		

> A few little notes.  (These regard build 8A425.)  Generally very good.  Very responsive.  I don't know if it's as fast as Panther, though...odd.  Maybe it is, and my machine's just freakin' out.  Maybe I need to clean out my user library, or something.
> 
> I do have some issues withe the Get Info panel in the Finder, specifically with the permissions sections.  I was trying to mess with some permissions (more on why later), and once I chose a new user/group (my own), I could NOT change the read/write/read+write pop down menus.  Also, once I clicked the lock, they switched back to the old user/group pair (system/admin), although I checked via the Terminal and they had been changed.  Odd.
> 
> ...



not as fast as panther? oh no! does anyone else think differntly? if tiger is slower than panther then i dont know if it is worth getting in my opinion. 

Mike


----------



## frankf (Mar 30, 2005)

That was a pretty sweeping broad generality.  Generally speaking, it seems about the same, but there are some times where it seems slower.  Terminal.app seems slower, to me, on redraw, maybe I need to change some settings.  Things speed up after I've been booted for a while, maybe I'm used to having longer uptimes, or something.

From what I've been reading, this is just a "me" issue, I wouldn't worry about it.  Although, I wouldn't be surprised if the spotlight stuff would have at least a tiny negative affect on disc IO, which in PB's, might be more easily felt.

I could be way off the mark, too.  *shrug*


----------



## fryke (Mar 30, 2005)

Terminal doesn't lag for me. Overall speed in Finder seems improved over Panther. Generally, I see it as a tad faster than Panther. Spotlight's impact is negligible for me. That's on a PB, too, btw... However: In the current build I suddenly can't print any longer (that's one of the test areas, too, I see) to my USB printer and somewhere between yesterday and today, some sound got lost. Gotta reboot. Here's to hoping the next build will solve these issues - plus the one getting on my nerves the most: Can't copy/paste, drag/drop between Adobe CS apps. Maybe they'll need an update...


----------



## texanpenguin (Mar 30, 2005)

Have these issues been reported in the ADC? If Apple doesn't know they're problems (such as the Get Info pane) they won't fix them, and they'll go GM with the prob.

Can anyone verify that it is out of sync with chowning them in Terminal?


----------



## frankf (Mar 30, 2005)

As soon as I can log in to the bugreporter website (it seems to be unresponsive, now), I'll report the one about the Get Info pane.

It seems like, though, the longer my uptime is, the better the performance.  Terminal isn't lagging for me anymore, everything seems more responsive, etc, etc.


----------



## texanpenguin (Mar 31, 2005)

Ha~! There's a new one!


----------



## fryke (Mar 31, 2005)

I first thought you meant a new build, texanpenguin  ... But yeah, sounds strange really. But it could of course be that with longer uptime, Spotlight "knows" your computer (and your use of it) better and has to do less. Then basically it shouldn't be uptime, but installation time. A reboot shouldn't really matter in this case...


----------



## frankf (Mar 31, 2005)

OK, this one's really weird, but I want to know if anyone else sees this behavior.  When my cursor changes (ie, from the pointer to the little hand over a link in Safari), there are some odd graphic glitches, very localized around the cursor.  It's pretty subtle, but it happens whenever the cursor changes, and it seems to be a slightly larger picture of the cursor.  It's not a solid image, but kinda interpolated with what should be there.

For me, it's easiest to see it if I move the cursor over a link over and over again, quickly, or between different links (like the page links at the bottom of this page).

It also happens in Finder, for example, when moving the divider between the sidebar and the icon/list/column view.

Anyone else see this?


----------



## fryke (Mar 31, 2005)

Nope, don't see this. What Mac/graphics card do you have? (It helps listing your Mac in your signature...)


----------



## frankf (Mar 31, 2005)

Hrmm...good idea.

I have a PowerBook 12" 867 MHz.  The graphics card is a GeForce4 MX.

(Goes to make a signature for himself).


----------



## nietzsche2131 (Apr 1, 2005)

fryke, have you got the build yet????? if so how is it???? i'm sure better then the last, oh anyone who's gotten 8A428 speak up!!!


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## fryke (Apr 1, 2005)

Erh... Haven't heard of it yet besides here in your post.


----------



## fryke (Apr 1, 2005)

Ah I see. AppleInsider... Well: If Apple has turned 8A428 into gold, then we'll see it on ADC soon enough, I guess.


----------



## cybergoober (Apr 1, 2005)

No signs of it in ADC, so I don't know...


----------



## nietzsche2131 (Apr 5, 2005)

Ok, I was wondering what was the first build number for tiger? The one that was first put out to developer's back in june 04. Lastly the current build 8A425 is about 2.29 GB, does it fully expand to 6GB's or does it reach around 7 to 8 GB's? Lastly, the ripple effect was in the earlier builds! I watched the keynoted from last june! WOW! I didn't realize it was there when dashboard was first introduced. Well thanks for your time.


----------



## chrisjasper (Apr 6, 2005)

Still 8a425 when I finally got around to downloading it last night.....


----------



## emck (Apr 6, 2005)

I do not have access to the build I was wandering if someone could tell me what version of postfix and fetchmail come with the latest build.

thanks


----------



## fryke (Apr 6, 2005)

Tiger Server 8A420 has been seeded. Side question (the feature's disabled in _this_ build): Has anyone looked into 'Portable Home Folder'? What's it do exactly?


----------



## appleman.design (Apr 12, 2005)

fryke said:
			
		

> Tiger Server 8A420 has been seeded. Side question (the feature's disabled in _this_ build): Has anyone looked into 'Portable Home Folder'? What's it do exactly?



That is where you go when the wife finds out you spend too much time on the computer...


----------



## Cat (Apr 12, 2005)

> Portable Home Directories
> 
> PowerBook and iBook users can now enjoy synchronized versions of home directory folders locally and on the network. When a user goes offline, her home directory goes with her, so she can continue to work just as she would back at the office. When she reconnects to the network, Mac OS X automatically syncs up selected content  such as documents, desktop items, music and pictures  in her local home directory with the one on the server.



From: http://www.apple.com/server/macosx/


----------



## G5 Medic (Apr 12, 2005)

What version of Tiger is GM? 8A425?


----------



## fryke (Apr 13, 2005)

Steve knows. Some internal developers know. Maybe many people more. Some say 8A428 is GM - but that build was rumoured to be released internally. So no definite information until it arrives...

If I remember correctly, there was similar talk with Panther, and some people thought it just couldn't be that 7B85 would become GM - yet it did. (Which'd lead to suspecting 8A425 could be GM.)


----------



## frankf (Apr 13, 2005)

So, can anyone figure out how to rename equation groups in Grapher?  Whenever I make a new group, it gets named Untitled Group, but it doesn't let me select the name and change it.  I've tried double-clicking, looking through the menus, the contextual menu, and the inspector.  None of them work for me...


----------



## 4lfclover (Apr 14, 2005)

J2SE Preview 8 now on ADC

I found this interesting - For Mac OS X v10.4 "Tiger" Developer Seed build 8A425 and later.


----------



## fryke (Apr 14, 2005)

Well: If they're expecting to _not_ seed another J2SE preview before April 29th, this wording makes total sense to me.


----------



## 4lfclover (Apr 15, 2005)




----------



## ibookemo (Apr 15, 2005)

I've been told that copying and pasting between Photoshop and Illustrator works fine in 8A425 by the way.


----------



## fryke (Apr 15, 2005)

And vector art between InDesign and Illustrator? (That's what was bugging me, I think.) Create a box in InDesign. Anything, really. Try dragging it to an Illustrator file. Or copy and pasting it...


----------



## ibookemo (Apr 15, 2005)

Works perfectly between Illustrator and inDesign - both dragging and copy/pasting. Sounds like you need to do a re-install.


----------



## fryke (Apr 15, 2005)

Rather, I'll first trash prefs of the apps... We talking InDesign 3.0.2 and Illustrator 11.0.x, right? (I don't know the exact version numbers, but basically, I'm just using the newest CS versions available, CS 2 is not out yet anyway...)


----------



## ibookemo (Apr 15, 2005)

Yeah, using the latest updated versions from CS suite


----------



## fryke (Apr 18, 2005)

Hmm... I tried creating a new user in 8a425 to see whether that, too, would have that CS bug. Illustrator doesn't want to start there... I guess I'll really have to reinstall...

On another note: Can you calibrate your display in 8a425? My contrast seems a bit off right now, and 8a428 doesn't let me set it. Says something about "built-in profile not found"...

I'll clean install as soon as most of my week's work is done, I guess...


----------



## cybergoober (Apr 18, 2005)

Hey! That's No Fair!! There's No 8a428 For Me?!!!


----------



## fryke (Apr 18, 2005)

Psst. It'll be out soon enough. Btw.: Display calibration works fine again after a reboot for me.


----------



## ibookemo (Apr 18, 2005)

When was 8A428 seeded?


----------



## fryke (Apr 18, 2005)

Wasn't really. Or only for ADC Premier? ... Either way: It's said to be the GM version, however until someone unpacks a retail version Tiger, we simply don't know.


----------



## ibookemo (Apr 18, 2005)

Have you noticed any obvious improvements in 8A428 over 8A425? Any less glitches?


----------



## fryke (Apr 18, 2005)

It seems a little snappier on my PB, although that could be due to some optimisation or something. I really think I've gotta reinstall cleanly soon... However: I'd say 8a428 is ready for general consumption...


----------



## ibookemo (Apr 19, 2005)

Do you think updating from 8A425 to 8A428 caused any new bugs on your mac Fryke?


----------



## fryke (Apr 19, 2005)

Nope. Basically the only thing that still doesn't work right for me is the Adobe CS thing. I guess I'll just clean install Tiger and Adobe CS and check this first - before applying my user account backup.


----------



## ibookemo (Apr 19, 2005)

That will definitely solve your CS problems. Your clipboard is probably messed up from an earlier beta.


----------



## RGrphc2 (Apr 19, 2005)

How Stable is the 8A428, any problems or quirk's to it?  

i would like to get Tiger as soon as it comes out, but yea... i might wait till 10.4.1, to get all the quirks out


----------



## fryke (Apr 20, 2005)

I remember Panther. I thought it was pretty stable. Then the FW bug came out. I wasn't affected... So... Tiger feels very, very stable for me. I don't see any bugs (if I don't count Adobe CS, which is probably due to my installation). But of _course_ there could be things unforeseen.


----------



## 3mors (Apr 20, 2005)

i've just noticed to issues with my tiger latest build:

- the time cursor on quicktime windows doesn't update while watching a movie, i have to resize the window and it goes to the right place
- if u right-click on the dock and the u click on other places (not on dock items) the dock stays in the same position (with a larger icon)... sorry i can't explain in a better way, please look at the picture below


----------



## 3mors (Apr 20, 2005)

another strange behaviour: if u "CMD + I" on a group of files, finder shows information for every single file not the whole group, so how to know the size of a group of files for example (obviously without putting them in a folder and get folder infos)?


----------



## cybergoober (Apr 20, 2005)

Cmd + Option + I?


----------



## 3mors (Apr 20, 2005)

ohoh, thanks


----------



## fryke (May 5, 2005)

Apple's seeded client version 8B9 to ADC.

- file sharing using AFP and SMB/CIFS network file services
- using DHCP in wireless networks
- user login when accessing LDAP and Active Directory servers
- core graphics including updated ATI and NVIDIA graphics drivers
- synchronization with .Mac
- Address Book, iCal, Font Book, Mail, and Preview applications
- Dashboard widgets: Address Book, Flight Tracker, Phone Book, and World Clock
- creating and burning disk images using Disk Utility and System Image Utility
- compatibility with third party applications and devices

I hear it's going to be released mid-May.


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## Viro (May 5, 2005)

Is this going to appear as 10.4.1?


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## fryke (May 5, 2005)

Yep. It's about 35 MB in size, currently. And from their DVD Studio announcement, we already know that it's going to be released in mid-May (since DVD Studio or Final Cut Studio, don't remember which, requires 10.4.1).


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## fryke (May 9, 2005)

Apple just seeded 8B13 (10.4.1) to ADC Select members. ~36 MB. One known issue. http://story.ch/cgi-bin/macnews.cgi/2005/05/10#20050510_8b13


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## fryke (May 11, 2005)

Yet another build: 8B15 is up on ADC. Dashboard's security issue is closed. Read more here: http://story.ch/cgi-bin/macnews.cgi/2005/05/12#20050512_8b15 ...


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## Fearsome.Orange (May 16, 2005)

Looks like 10.4.1 has been released.  19.4mb is what I'm downloading now.  Let's hope it contains some good fixes.


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## ElDiabloConCaca (May 16, 2005)

10.4.1 was 37MB for me... damn those "Delta" updaters!

I actually downloaded the self-contained installer from the website instead of using Software Update.  Just a "peace of mind" kind of thing, I guess.


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## 3mors (May 16, 2005)

i was waiting 10.4.1 update to see if a dock issue would be corrected but it doesn't seem to be done: on my dock i have a shortcut to my system hard disk, if i click on it the menu shows me two files (_mach.sym_ and an alias called _mach_) that should be invisible.

so my question is: is it only a my problem or other guys have the same issue?

see the attachment

EDIT: ah, and in a normal finder window, these files are invisible, so it's a truly dock problem...


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## fryke (May 16, 2005)

build number?


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## 3mors (May 16, 2005)

fryke said:
			
		

> build number?


8B15


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## fryke (May 16, 2005)

oh, okay.  strange enough, the seed notes for the build mention one known issue: "- Problems syncing Address Book with .Mac" - Guess that problem would then still be a known issue and be handled in another update or a separate update to .Mac and/or Address Book...


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## RGrphc2 (May 16, 2005)

10.4.1  is out, do a software update


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## WinWord10 (May 16, 2005)

Safari also has some problems rendering tables, still. Check out http://www.edmunds.com/zipcode/new/index.html?tid=edmunds.g.home.header..1.* . Hit refresh and the page loads properly. This wasn't an issue with Safari versions prior to 2.0.


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## Captain Code (May 16, 2005)

java_swt is taking up a lot of CPU time since this update when I run azereus.  Maybe it's just this torrent but I don't think so.  It's going from anywhere between 20-90%


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## ElDiabloConCaca (May 16, 2005)

I got the symbolic link to mach and the mach.sym files in my hard disk dock menu, as well.

Strange.  Been like that ever since I installed Tiger.


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## btoth (May 16, 2005)

Still didn't fix the bug with Mail not hiding if set as a login item.  That's very annoying.


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## Lt Major Burns (May 16, 2005)

ElDiabloConCaca said:
			
		

> I got the symbolic link to mach and the mach.sym files in my hard disk dock menu, as well.
> 
> Strange.  Been like that ever since I installed Tiger.



yup i'm getting em too. shan't post a pic - it'\s the same as yours...


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## 3mors (May 17, 2005)

WinWord10 said:
			
		

> Safari also has some problems rendering tables, still. Check out http://www.edmunds.com/zipcode/new/index.html?tid=edmunds.g.home.header..1.* . Hit refresh and the page loads properly. This wasn't an issue with Safari versions prior to 2.0.


no problem with it, even without hitting refresh


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## fryke (May 28, 2005)

Mac OS X 10.4.2 8C21 seeded. Got some info on http://story.ch/cgi-bin/macnews.cgi/2005/05/28#20050528_8c21 (macnews.net.tc).


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## fryke (Jun 4, 2005)

Mac OS X 10.4.2 8C26 seeded. Some info on http://haligon.blogspot.com/2005/06/apple-seeds-mac-os-x-1042-8c26.html (macnews.net.tc).


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## Damrod (Jun 5, 2005)

Sounds interesting. Looking forward to it, hope it hits SoftwareUpdate soon.

Maybe this thread should have a remark of some sort in the title, that this is about the developer version. If one does not read from the first page on, this could be quite irritating.


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## fryke (Jun 5, 2005)

Yes, that's right. Guess it was clear back when Tiger wasn't released. I'll change it now.


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## fryke (Jun 10, 2005)

Lately, Apple has seeded 8C27 - http://haligon.blogspot.com/2005/06/apple-seeds-mac-os-x-1042-8c27.html - and 8C29: http://haligon.blogspot.com/2005/06/apple-seeds-mac-os-x-1042-8c29.html


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## fryke (Jun 15, 2005)

10.4.2 8C32 has been seeded. Apple wrapping up development. Release expected within five days.


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## fryke (Jun 16, 2005)

Btw.: The Tiger forum was dissolved into the System & Software forum and the Rumours forum. So if you have questions/problems/solutions for Tiger, they belong to the System & Software forum now. If you want to talk about future versions of Tiger, this is the place for it...


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## MacFreak (Jun 16, 2005)

As we know that you already have and you can tell us what it have new features in Tiger. ;-)


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## fryke (Jun 16, 2005)

I don't think there are really new features. More bugfixing... I've put something about the changes in 10.4.2 here: http://story.ch/cgi-bin/macnews.cgi/2005/05/28#20050528_8c21


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## MacFreak (Jun 16, 2005)

Anything improve?


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## fryke (Jun 16, 2005)

I couldn't really say. Haven't got much trouble with Tiger so far, so...


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## fryke (Jun 16, 2005)

8C33 seeded, believed to be the release build. More: http://haligon.blogspot.com/2005/06/apple-seeds-mac-os-x-1042-8c33.html


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## Adonsa (Jun 17, 2005)

Good morning Fryke,

What code name was assigned to the System 10.4.2 upgrader?

Thanks much,
Adonsa


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## fryke (Jun 17, 2005)

Although Apple might internally give the dot-dot updates code names, I don't know the one of 10.4.2 (if there at all is one).


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## texanpenguin (Jun 20, 2005)

Is Quartz 2D Extreme turned on by default in 10.4.2?


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## Stridder44 (Jun 20, 2005)

Oh thank you big man upstairs..

I used to hate updates, but then I got a Mac and now I love them!


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## fryke (Jun 20, 2005)

Nope. Well, it stayed active for me through updating, but if I open Quartz Debug and close it, it's deactivated again.


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## nietzsche2131 (Jun 20, 2005)

Hey fryke, 
I've reading how dashboard has been slightly altered. Such as, when you want to delete a widget you no longer have to go to the library. Is this true? Instead you can somehow make a red x appear in the dashboard dock and delete this way. I'm really curious about this because it would be sweet to delete widgets directly from dashboard. Also, anything different about dashboard besides that?


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## fryke (Jun 20, 2005)

Yes. When you hover over a Dashboard widget's icon in the DBdock, there's a small 'forbidden'-icon (bad choice?) in the name tag which you can click to remove the widget. This icon's only there for third party widgets, though, i.e. you can't remove Apple's widgets.

Also, when you download a widget with Safari, it isn't auto-installed anymore. Once you double-click a widget in the Finder, you get a dialogue box that lets you test-drive/install/cancel. The test-drive is a "safe place" to run the widgets. Basically, you simply get a few more steps until a malicious widget would do its stuff. Doesn't mean someone could still create a bad widget that tricks you into installing it, though - but it's still safer, since it doesn't get auto-installed.


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## Lt Major Burns (Jun 20, 2005)

seems to me that isntead of offering a safety barrier, shouldn't the encoding of dashboard be more inherently secure? this sounds like a work around cheap code. like all of windows?


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## RGrphc2 (Jun 20, 2005)

Lt Major Burns said:
			
		

> seems to me that isntead of offering a safety barrier, shouldn't the encoding of dashboard be more inherently secure? this sounds like a work around cheap code. like all of windows?



Will this update disable the Widget Manager in the Preferences?

Widget Manager is something apple should have included, allows me to delete/add widgets with out going into the Widgets folder.  Including Apple's own widgets.


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## Sirtovin (Jun 21, 2005)

When will this update be out?


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## fryke (Jun 27, 2005)

Apple's just seeded 8C40 of 10.4.2. Update still not out... http://haligon.blogspot.com/2005/06/apple-seeds-mac-os-x-1042-8c40.html


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## Sirtovin (Jun 27, 2005)

thanks Fryke for the continued updates


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## Stridder44 (Jun 27, 2005)

Hey fryke, is it just me or is that site (Im guessing your site) that you keep linking to down? Everytime I follow it it brings up the top of the page and the title of the news strip- and the rest of the page is blank? In any case, thanks for the updates!


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## nietzsche2131 (Jun 28, 2005)

Hey fryke I was wondering if you could post a srceenshot of the widget manager. I would just like to see it. I'm really curious. I know it might be illegal but it shouldn't because Tiger is out. I just think it sounds really neat in how it looks. Thanks


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## fryke (Jun 28, 2005)

The site's not down, Stridder. Something's strange with the CSS, I guess. The text follows a bit further down... :/
Screenshots of the widget manager...


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## fryke (Jun 28, 2005)

The screens are in German, I guess. But you should get the idea. Oh... Parts of the manager are in English, it seems.  -> File bug report to Apple.


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## Lt Major Burns (Jun 28, 2005)

i'm seeing the same problem with your blogsite. it loads up the title, and the first sub-title... then nothing. the sidebar loads as well, but that's it.


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## nietzsche2131 (Jun 28, 2005)

Sweet thanks for the image postings. You rule fryke!


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## fryke (Jun 28, 2005)

Just look _below_ ... I've changed the layout now. I have no idea what changed, really. The original (which I've tweaked) shows the same behaviour. Now only the first article looks a tad strange. Hmm... Too bad.

[Update: It's a "known issue" at blogger.com. They've updated their code (something about image upload) and that destroys some - but not all - layouts. They're working on it and might find workarounds for the templates. Guess I'll have to fix mine myself, then - unless they really fix things instead of finding workarounds.]


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## Ripcord (Jun 30, 2005)

fryke said:
			
		

> The site's not down, Stridder. Something's strange with the CSS, I guess. The text follows a bit further down... :/
> Screenshots of the widget manager...



Wow, Apple's REALLY getting inconsistent with their UI.  The new Widget Manager looks like some weird Swiss French Teletext system.  It looks HORRIBLE.  I might as well just hook up a crappy PAL TV to my G5 and wait for the weather to eventually scroll by every 10 minutes or so.  

Maybe it would make more sense if I could read French; I'm assuming "Le temps par telephone" means "disable all widgets", or something like that?

You know, the Finder/Dock was a bad start.  Brushed metal was bad enough.  The new UI inconsistencies in Tiger were a stretch, and the complete diversion from their UI rules with their widgets is one thing, but this is _horrible_.  I, for one, won't be installing the 10.4.2 update.


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## fryke (Jun 30, 2005)

Erh... That Swiss Teletext thingie is a Swiss Teletext widget, of course.


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## Ripcord (Jun 30, 2005)

fryke said:
			
		

> Erh... That Swiss Teletext thingie is a Swiss Teletext widget, of course.



Yes.  I don't really think that "Le temps par telephone" means "disable all widgets".

=)


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## fryke (Jun 30, 2005)

So it was all irony? Or not all of it? What should we make of your post? I mean: I personally think Apple _did_ wrong with many of the UI inconsistency that led to, finally, Tiger. But what _do_ you think about the widget manager? I think it fits the Dashboard UI at least...


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## Lt Major Burns (Jun 30, 2005)

brilliant. got the fryke almost completely bowled out with confusion.

i laughed


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## fryke (Jun 30, 2005)

Well, yeah. I didn't expect the absurd in this thread.


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## Lt Major Burns (Jun 30, 2005)

it gets everywhere. a draft excluder helps to stop the spread of it


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## Ripcord (Jun 30, 2005)

> So it was all irony?



"Spoof", maybe?  I dunno.  After your screenshot I couldn't resist.  (come on, it really does look like you were saying the widget was the manager.  Yes, we can barely see the translucent window, but still =)

I started to mention plans to go to www.petitiononline.com and start a campaign against it but thought that might be overboard...


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## fryke (Jul 2, 2005)

8C44 seeded. Some changes in Airport networking, Dashboard...


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## Decado (Jul 2, 2005)

have they fixed the following weird glitch in spotlight (or maybe it is due to the need to give fast searchfeedback):
in 10.4.1 when i search for Haj (that means shark) i get a lot of pictures on my computer, but i dont get the pictures titled Brunhaj (brown shark). I get them when i search for Brun or Brunhaj. very hard for you to know, fryke, if you dont have a lot of sharkpictures on your computer  but i guess my qustion is: is spotlight improved?

p.s i dont even care for sharks that much.


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## fryke (Jul 2, 2005)

I think Spotlight's interface isn't a focus in 10.4.2...


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## Decado (Jul 2, 2005)

pity. they should focus more on the fun stuff and less on the underlying components that dont have shiny buttons.


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## sb2003 (Jul 2, 2005)

Since we don't have it. Could you possibly tell us how 8c44 performs overall, and does this builds seem to be getting better or creating new problems.


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## Stridder44 (Jul 2, 2005)

I think it's awesome how Apple is just holding this one back every time it finds something new to fix.

God I can't wait to get this update...


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## fryke (Jul 2, 2005)

The past three builds have been running great here. I don't see any problems in 8C44 (but then, you know, I can't test a G5's SuperDrive since I don't have any etc.) and I think it's just about as finished as can get. I think we'll later say that 10.4.2 was a really good update in the Tiger era (at least I hope so...). I guess Apple wants to convince every last one of the critics that Tiger is "better than Panther" now. (But for me, too, there's still some way to go with Spotlight...)


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## Sirtovin (Jul 5, 2005)

Fryke... Any word yet when 10.4.2 will be released yet.. lol... anything any news... as to what they are working on.  Memory?  Features, bugs? etc.


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## HomunQlus (Jul 6, 2005)

Yeah... I'm quite curious too. We haven't heard much about 10.4.2 for some time now. I was wondering when it will be released too.


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## fryke (Jul 6, 2005)

Nothing to say, really...


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## 3mors (Jul 6, 2005)

i'm waiting this release in order to check if there is any firmware update for my superdrive... i invite you to read this thread on my annoying problem:

http://discussions.info.apple.com/webx?128@780.dAAEa4FoWVY.0@.68b27b7c


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## fryke (Jul 6, 2005)

DVD drive firmware patches are not usually coupled with OS updates.


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## 3mors (Jul 6, 2005)

fryke said:
			
		

> DVD drive firmware patches are not usually coupled with OS updates.


so i must be very angry with apple


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## fryke (Jul 6, 2005)

Not really. I only said it wouldn't be part of 10.4.2 AFAIK. But a) that could have changed now and they _would_ do that or b) maybe they'll release a separate firmware update for your drive soon, anyway. So: No reason to be angry with Apple, right?


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## 3mors (Jul 6, 2005)

fryke said:
			
		

> No reason to be angry with Apple, right?


eheh, i hope fryke
i'll be angry when they'll tell me that i have to keep my drive as now
but i'll hope they solve the question...


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## chrisjasper (Jul 7, 2005)

Improved Widget memory management and improvements to iChat video conferencing apparently.
Havent had a chance to try it yet.


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## fryke (Jul 7, 2005)

Woohoo. Finally better memory management for the widgets.  I'll try it in a couple minutes...


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## fryke (Jul 7, 2005)

So far, so good. I can't test the video chat thingie, but the Dashboard seems fine. Then again, problems usually arise only after a few hours of use, so I'll return and add about it, then...


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## Sirtovin (Jul 7, 2005)

Fryke Does this mean its out yet for release to public?


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## fryke (Jul 7, 2005)

No. We'll make that clear by a thread called "Mac OS X 10.4.2 released in Software Update" or similar.  ... This thread is for news/info about the further development of Tiger.


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## cybergoober (Jul 8, 2005)

_*cough*_*8C46*_*cough*_


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## fryke (Jul 8, 2005)

Oh, guess I forgot the thread title... Right on it. Now. Late. Sorry.


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## nietzsche2131 (Jul 10, 2005)

Wow, apple is really putting in some quaility work on this update in Tiger. Which is VERY cool with me. A widget manager, improved core image(ripple effect), better dashboard use of memory etc. Very impressed kudos to apple. I just looked back to find out that build 8C21 was the first 10.4.2 build!! That was back on May 28th. Fryke said it wouldn't be expteced till mid-june at the latest. Now it's July and still making beta builds. But soon.......


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## fryke (Jul 10, 2005)

Improved ripple effect? Where'd you read that? It looks just the same to me. It still isn't instant on my PowerBook when called the first time (subsequent calls are fine, though)... And until _then_, I consider the effect _very_ useless, since I don't usually call up two or three new widgets at a time, rather I need _one_ I didn't have open previously, and thus the effect is a nuisance at best...


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## Decado (Jul 10, 2005)

how about the iPhoto? i have not been able to use iphoto for over a month because of the auto-enhance-photos-bug.
agree on the ripple effect. on my girlfriends ibook dashboard is instant while i have to suffer a lagging water effect. anybody with a G5? is it always instant there?


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## Lt Major Burns (Jul 10, 2005)

yup. completly instant. sorry guys.  can't you hack the terminal to turn the effect off?

however, bringing the dashboard out _isnt _instant. it sucks.


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## Decado (Jul 10, 2005)

bringing dashboard out is instant on my powerbook as long as i have free memory (my guess is that the system saves that action in the memory as long as it can to keep it smooth). i have not restarted my computer since 10.4.1 came so i dont know how long it takes the first time around.


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## Lt Major Burns (Jul 10, 2005)

sorry, i meant, the time it takes to load up all the widget data after you hit F12 for the first time in a while, although i found that keeping the dashbard icon in the dock helps (for some reason) to keep the times down


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## Matt P (Jul 10, 2005)

Decado said:
			
		

> how about the iPhoto? i have not been able to use iphoto for over a month because of the auto-enhance-photos-bug.



That was fixed in a previous 10.4.2 seed.

Matt


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## HomunQlus (Jul 11, 2005)

I have no problems with the water effect. Comes up instantly, even if I have a lot of programs open. That may however be related to a G5 1.8 Gig and 1 GB RAM...


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## MacFreak (Jul 12, 2005)

10.4.2 is out now..


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## Decado (Jul 12, 2005)

they have not fixed the iphoto-bug!


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## Matt P (Jul 13, 2005)

Decado said:
			
		

> they have not fixed the iphoto-bug!



You're right, but I'm adamant it was in one of the seed notes for 10.4.2. Can anyone confirm or am I dreaming?

Matt


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## Matt P (Jul 13, 2005)

Ok the iPhoto 5.0.3 update claims to fix the problem, but there is still a definite change...

Matt


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## fryke (Jul 14, 2005)

It was in the release notes of one build. You're not dreaming.


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## Sirtovin (Jul 14, 2005)

seems to work fine for me... 10.4.2.


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## Decado (Jul 14, 2005)

maybe they split it (the iphoto 5.0.3 and 10.4.2) cuz they found other bugs that affected 10.3 users also. now it is fixed anyway and i am happy. iphoto starts faster also with 8000 pictures.


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## fryke (Jul 14, 2005)

Matt: Do you mean the bug's _not_ fixed, or that another/new problem arises with 10.4.2 and iPhoto 5.0.3?


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## guest (Jul 26, 2005)

iPhoto 5.0.4 now available via Software Update


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## fryke (Jul 26, 2005)

Doesn't mention that particular bug, though... Does it _fix_ it?


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## Decado (Jul 27, 2005)

it was fixed in 5.0.3.
but why is this update so large. seem such a small thing to fix (in my book every bugfix that _doesn't_ include new graphics should be minor. i mean, it just text.)


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## fryke (Jul 27, 2005)

I guess it actually replaces the old app, doesn't patch it. Which means the whole app has to be downloaded in compressed form. (It's about 150 MB in size, the app, so that's possible...)


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## fryke (Aug 4, 2005)

Bit late... Apple's seeded 10.4.3 8F8. ~76 MB combo updater. Guess Apple will take some time until that will be released, though...


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## RGrphc2 (Aug 4, 2005)

fryke, your getting lazy, you never changed the Build name in Thread post...


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## texanpenguin (Aug 15, 2005)

Any news yet on whether or not Q2DE is turned on by default in 10.4.3?

I'm sick of waiting for that .


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## fryke (Aug 15, 2005)

I haven't installed this first build of 10.4.3. I usually wait for the second or third... But Apple hasn't seeded any builds after 8F8, AFAIK. What I can say is that Q2DE wasn't talked about specifically in the seed notes. So I guess not...


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## texanpenguin (Aug 15, 2005)

That's quite a slow development cycle (perhaps they're waiting for more 10.4.2 bugs to squash at the same time).

I'm surprised (especially with the ridiculous amount of developer seeds for .2)


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