# Is the Israeli repsonse to Hezbollah excessive?



## Rhisiart (Jul 15, 2006)

As someone who supports the state of Israel, I am horrified at the use of extreme force to rescue their captured soldiers. Wouldn't negogiations been a better first step, using military action if this failed?

(See also this post).


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## bbloke (Jul 15, 2006)

The current situation has roots going back hundreds of years and I don't think there is one clear cut aggressor or victim.  

While it is not too difficult to understand why the Israelis feel threatened and tend to overreact, as they feel their very existence is under threat, it is very hard to support their actions, when one hears of the details...  There is a lot that we don't tend to hear on the news, we just tend to hear about one side mounting an "attack" and the other side mounting a "response."  We hear a lot less about living conditions and about daily oppression.

In answer to your question, I'd say that, yes, the Israeli response has been excessive.  They are not just penalizing those who might have been involved in the action against Israeli forces, but now killing and oppressing civilians on a much larger scale.  

Where will this lead?  To more resentment, and more people wanting to fight against Israel, no doubt.  As "moderates" become "radicalized" (to put things simplistically) when events hurt them directly too, then we have more violence.  And then Israel will respond to that too.  And so on.  Violence will beget more violence.  

War, assasinations, oppression, and torture do not solve underlying problems, they merely keep the lid on things temporarily while the political situation reaches boiling point underneath...

There was quite a good article on an Australian web site, here.


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## ora (Jul 15, 2006)

Yes, it is. I have to say i don't support the _current political state of israel_ in any way, though i do support the existence of an Israeli state.

Not only is the response excessive, but the rhetoric all reeks of hypocrisy. It drives me nuts the way Israeli spokesman quote UN resolutions against theirt enemies while ignoring the many directed agaisnt them and their various illegal occupations. Return to pre '67 lines or something close is the only basis for peace i can see, plus stopping strangling Gaza (they've withdrawn but essentially can still cut off the whole province at will).

None of this is to say i support the terror tactics of Hezbollah or the military arm of Hamas, they are as repugnant as the Israeli right wing and IDF.

Lets all hope this stops soon.


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## JimmyP1 (Jul 15, 2006)

I disagree with the above posters so far.  Israel continually has it's existence threatened especially by a subhuman group of people left in Palestine.  All the smart Palestinians have left with their money and are waiting until conflicts settle down.  Israel left a lot of good starting businesses in Gaza when they pulled out months ago, for these Palestinians to work with and what did they do: tore them apart to sell the pieces instead of trying to keep whole businesses together so all could have some jobs, some money.  I think the Israelites know these people well enough to know what they will understand, to get them to stop attacking the Land Of Israel.


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## Rhisiart (Jul 15, 2006)

JimmyP1 said:


> Israel continually has its existence threatened especially by a subhuman group of people left in Palestine.


Feck me! Sub-human?!!!! That's a seriously nasty term to use. 

There are plenty of uneducated and poor people in my neck of the woods and they are not all destructive. Some are, some aren't. You're generalising. 

Israel falls into the same trap as the West, i.e. that old Cold War thing where territory is everything (borders, security etc.). It isn't anymore. You can't live in a cocoon. 

You have to negotiate and make compromises.

This Old Testament obsession with an eye for an eye just won't do anymore.

And as for Hezbollah, wouldn't it better to follow the teachings of the Koran?


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## ora (Jul 15, 2006)

Jesus, that was a extreme. I hold strong views of the situation but not like that. I just get angry as i visited parts of the area when i was younger and met so many people on both sides who were bone tired of conflict and just wanted to live. Extreme groups on _both_ sides are ruining chances of this happening.


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## Mobius Rex (Jul 15, 2006)

> Israel continually has it's existence threatened especially by a subhuman group of people left in Palestine



Excuse me, but your racism is showing, JimmyP1!
Israel is engaged in a process of ethnic cleansing in the occupied territories.  Israel regards the Palestinian people(that's right, they're people, human beings just like you and me, JimmyP1)  as subhuman trash, just as you do.  Israel is guilty of systematic atrocities against the Palestinian people, men, women and children, atrocities which are designed  to break the back of their will to resist occupation, and to make life so intolerable for them that they all will leave Palestine.  Israel wants their land, all of it, for "Greater Israel".


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## reed (Jul 15, 2006)

What is the ratio between Israeli soldiers kidnapped and civilians killed both in Gaza and Lebenan so far? Just curious.


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## adambyte (Jul 15, 2006)

On a smaller scale... hell yes, that's excessive. "Kidnap a few people" does not equal "bombing civilians." That's the easy part of this equation.

On a big scale... Everything violent about the middle east is exccessive. I have NO IDEA how to prevent the Judeo Christian and Islamic people from butting heads. I don't know what kept the region "mostly stable" for the majority of the '90s, but hot damn, I miss that. 

Bear in mind, I'm only 23. I probably don't have my history straight.


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## bbloke (Jul 15, 2006)

Whoa, I have to agree with the other posters, JimmyP1!   Your post was incredibly ignorant and basically racist!   

You cannot lump all Palestinians together, and to say only the dumb ones remain is outrageous.   For a start, not everyone will have the living standards you enjoy, and not everyone is able to move even when they want to.  Perhaps you should "see how the other half lives," before condemning them... 

In case you didn't know, "Israeli" groups (for want of a better term) waged a terrorist battle before the creation of Israel, trying to establish the creation of Israel.  You cannot say this is one way, *both* sides have committed atrocities over the years.  It is not a binary issue.  To see the Israelis as Good Guys and Palestinians as Bad Guys is, well, ridiculous.

Israel gets massive military support from the US, while the neighbors do not.  Israel created nuclear weapons, probably with Western support, while the West would not want Israel's neighbors to obtain nuclear weapons.  If Palestinians attack Israeli towns, we condemn it, but when Israelis carry out punishment of towns for the actions of a minority, we turn a blind eye.  The hypocrisy of the West is appalling.

You might also need to look into why Palestinians, and others, feel so frustrated.  Have a look at some facts.  To quote the source (as of 2002):


In 2002, Israel occupied 78% of Palestine (as established after the creation of Israel, that is).

Average annual income in Israel and Palestine: Israel: $17,000, Palestine: $1,700.

Some 26% of West Bank Palestinian households have no connection to piped water. Israeli settlers pay an average of three times less for domestic consumption than Palestinians.

The current unemployment rate in Israel is 10.2%  the highest in 10 years. In Palestine the unemployment rate is 60%.

The Israeli military interventions in spring 2002 are estimated to have cost $350 million in damage to Palestinian infrastructure (schools, roads, waterworks, power supply, government buildings). In an entire year Palestinian public investment amounts to $200 million.

That is, the Palestinians have far worse living standards, even children are killed by Israeli snipers, civilians are held up at checkpoints for hours on end, even ambulances have been shot at, the Palestinians land is not protected by the West although the West is terribly protective of Israel's existence, the Palestinians feel they have no one listening to them and no peaceful means of turning things around, the Israelis used to widely use torture and barbaric means of killing people suspected of being terrorists (eg. breaking every bone in their body and leaving them in no-man's land to die), they destroy family homes when one member might be implicated in violence, and the Palestinians ultimately feel they have nothing left to lose.  This is why they opt for violence, not because, as you so disgustingly put it, they are somehow "subhuman."


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## reed (Jul 15, 2006)

bbloke, 
   You have done your homework. Well said. One thing I find so scary about this situation is the fact Israel rose to the bait. Extremists love that. They live by it. They love to die for it. As radical colonists in the Occuppied Territories would do?
   Now what? Will everybody get into the act:Iran, Syria, and so forth? Lebanon was fragile as it was, now, it will go to crumbs and who will move into a vacuum if this continues? GWB has his butt between two chairs....on one side he supports Israel come hell or highwater but at the same time he (EC included) wants Lebanon to become a "stable" part of the Middle East.   Goodbye Charlie now. Between the Gaza Strip and the Second Front all this can be cast to the wind. And for what? A few soldiers?
  Of course, the Gaza invasion was already prepared despite the so called "saving Private Ryan". The Hezbolla thought it best to get into the act to really get the dander up. Who will come out the "winners?" Nobody, of course.
  To be continued....


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## Rhisiart (Jul 15, 2006)

I suspect the solution to this problem lies with Putin's advisors/negotiators (or even Chirac).

Heaven forbid that Blair and Bush get involved.


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## g/re/p (Jul 15, 2006)

What really gets me is this - the part of the world referred to as the "holy land" is most probaly going  to be where armageddon starts.

I used to think it would not happen in my lifetime, now i am not so sure about that.

Blatant ignorance, doltish stupidity, and unfounded hate - all in the same of religion!!! - never ceases to amaze me.


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## g/re/p (Jul 16, 2006)

Red and Yellow____Black and White

We'll be torches_____in the night...


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## bbloke (Jul 16, 2006)

Thanks, reed.  

Sorry in advance for this long post!   I thought I'd try to find some more information, for those who are interested.  

I am not vouching for the different sources and there will inevitably be some discrepancies, which may simply be due to how up-to-date the sources/pages are, but I thought it makes interesting reading...

Some useful links:

Background by Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-Palestinian_conflict

A site aimed at Americans, regarding Israel and Palestine:
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

Factsheet about Palestine and Israel:
http://www.afsc.org/israel-palestine/learn/factsheet.pdf

Comprehensive compilation of information:
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/nueva_web/infos_materials/facts_sheets.htm

Amnesty International pages about Israel and the Occupied Territories:
http://web.amnesty.org/pages/IOT_home
http://web.amnesty.org/pages/isr-index-eng
http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engmde150742002
http://www.amnestyusa.org/countries/israel_and_occupied_territories/reports.do

Secret Israeli prison facility:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1084796,00.html

Human Rights Watch pages on Israel and the Occupied Territories:
http://www.hrw.org/un/chr59/israelot.htm





			
				Paraphrased from source said:
			
		

> http://www.afsc.org/israel-palestine/learn/factsheet.pdf
> 
> US provides $3.0 billion in aid annually to Israel; $1.8 billion in military aid and $1.2 billion on economic aid
> 
> Israel constitutes 0.1% of the world's population and yet receives 30% of the total US foreign aid budget





			
				Paraphrased from source said:
			
		

> http:/www.ifamericansknew.org/
> 
> Israeli casualties:
> 121 children killed
> ...





			
				Paraphrased from one Amnesty International source said:
			
		

> http://web.amnesty.org/pages/IOT_home
> 
> Since September 29th, 2000 (the start date of the al-Aqsa intifada):
> 2000 Palestinians killed (380 were children) by Israeli Defence Force (IDF)
> ...





			
				Paraphrased from another Amnesty International source said:
			
		

> http://web.amnesty.org/pages/isr-index-eng
> 
> Since September 29th, 2000 (the start date of the al-Aqsa intifada):
> 2500 Palestinians killed (450 were children) by Israelis
> ...



So note that it seems to be agreed that the Israelis have killed and injured more Palestinians than the Palestinians have killed or injured Israelis...   This might surprise us, judging by how things get reported in the news (i.e. we usually hear about a suicide bombing, and then see Israeli troops move in to "protect" themselves).




			
				Paraphrased from source said:
			
		

> http://www.palestinemonitor.org/nueva_web/facts_sheets/torture.htm
> 
> Torture of Palestinians by Israeli forces includes:
> "The issue of *torture or other ill treatment of children* in Gush Etzion police station was raised in a report by B&#8217;tselem, the Israeli human rights organization."



Hopefully, this all gives some idea of why the Palestinian people are so p*ssed off...

By the way, I also want to draw one very important distinction: it is one thing to understand why someone does something, and it is a different matter whether or not one condones it.  

Whether or not we agree with someone's actions, we will never get anywhere near solving our problems unless we attempt to understand the other side, and labelling people as just stupid, subhuman, or otherwise leads to violence, not peace.  We've had enough genocide in the 20th Century to surely have learned that by now...


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## reed (Jul 16, 2006)

bbloke,

  There is never a too long reply to such a tragic situation. Your sources are very interesting. I've passed them around to those who are "wondering"what is going on.
  I have a few too but here is one for the moment that may interest you or anybody else on this thread............

http://www.truthdig.com/

For the moment, only J. Chirac seems to have given a "good" response to this crisis from the G8 meetings. GWB is his usual self. Deaf, bumb and blind. In fact they are all divided and wringing their hands on what to do.


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## ora (Jul 16, 2006)

Great work bbloke! 

For good background I heartily recommend the iron wall by Avi Shlaim, a very astute Israeli historian who is critical of both sides and presents a pretty balanced view given the inflammatory nature of the subject. 

I also very much enjoyed Israel/Palastine: how to end the war of 1948 by Tanya Reinhart, another Israeli. She gives an excellent account of the issues and shows how officials on both sides have actively worked against peace, rather working to further their own power and influence. Reinhart has a website with more info and some articles here, plus i see she has a new book on the subject which I'm off to order now.


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## Rhisiart (Jul 17, 2006)

ora said:


> Great work bbloke!


Yes, a very impressive list of sources. Much food for thought amongst them.



ora said:


> For good background I heartily recommend the iron wall by Avi Shlaim, a very astute Israeli historian who is critical of both sides and presents a pretty balanced view given the inflammatory nature of the subject.


This sounds interesting too.

I think what is so frustrating is that we're virtually powerless to do anything about the situation. We elect our politicians to formulate sound foreign policies and to apply pressure in regions where cultural hatred gets out of control.

Yet a significant number of contributors to this forum come from two countries that behave as arrogantly as the Israelies. 

We can hardly lecture the Israelies or Hezbollah on restraint when you have someone like Donald Rumsfeld arrogantly using terms such as &#8216;Strike and Awe&#8217; as his war planes bomb the living crap out of Baghdad (with the full backing of my country's politicians).


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## bbloke (Jul 17, 2006)

Thanks, guys.   



			
				rhisiart said:
			
		

> I think what is so frustrating is that we're virtually powerless to do anything about the situation. We elect our politicians to formulate sound foreign policies and to apply pressure in regions where cultural hatred gets out of control.


I think this frustration applies to much of politics in the West.  Many feel they vote and then don't get what they voted for, or that "they're all the same."  This can lead to people becoming disenfranchised with politics and politicians.  I think when people no longer feel listened to and feel they have no political means to express themselves, things become Bad.  Mmm, I sense a parallel with the theme at hand!



			
				rhisiart said:
			
		

> Yet a significant number of contributors to this forum come from two countries that behave as arrogantly as the Israelies.


I'd go along with that in general terms, but there are some areas where I think Israel is on particularly shaky ground.  I think some Western countries are indeed guilty of major arrogance and tend to invade and overthrow who they want to and whenever they want to.  At the same time, though, I think Israel goes a bit further and sometimes approaches "ethnic cleansing," which is more serious in my view.



			
				rhisiart said:
			
		

> We can hardly lecture the Israelies or Hezbollah on restraint when you have someone like Donald Rumsfeld arrogantly using terms such as &#8216;Strike and Awe&#8217; as his war planes bomb the living crap out of Baghdad (with the full backing of my country's politicians).


I'd broadly agree, but then again I think one could live in the West and still thoroughly disapprove of both Western and Israeli actions.   

A lot of all this is about point of view.  "Freedom fighter" or "terrorist?"  "Liberation" or "invasion?"  "Self protection" or "aggression?"


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## reed (Jul 17, 2006)

Speaking of points of views and there are many, many. Remember: "police action," "border conflicts," "cross frontier insurrections" "regional tinderboxes" "protective reactions," and "heated exchanges?"
  One thing is sure, as G. Bush Sr. once said: "we are in big doodoo." For the moment anyway.


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## Convert (Jul 17, 2006)

I guess it depends on perspective. If I was a relative of one of the soldiers missing I'd probably want all hell to break loose to get him/her back. But then it looks like some kind of excuse here to be honest, I'm not saying that people are war mongers or something, but Israel has a reason to do something, even the US realises that, thus Bush's refusal to call for a cease fire.

But it's war, right? It's just a f*cking war, another one, full of idiots, the smart guys are the ones on the ground. Why can't the people who decide these f*cking things get hurt, so then they may realise how bad war can be. I don't think they get it. Bombing the crap out of civilians won't get you your soldiers back. Stop the fighting now, they know how powerful Israel is, maybe they'll negotiate. The sad thing is that more Israeli soldiers have died trying to save these soldiers... and so have more civilians.


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## reed (Jul 18, 2006)

Indeed Convert.
  It's the ratio that pisses me off the most. I just don't get it and I never will.
  Let us hope things will cool down....but I don't see it for the moment.


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## lilbandit (Jul 20, 2006)

What about this?http://sabbah.biz/mt/wp-mobile.php?p=1440&more=1


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## hawki18 (Jul 21, 2006)

There is no G Bush SR. There middle names are not the same.


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## bbloke (Jul 21, 2006)

hawki18 said:


> There is no G Bush SR. There middle names are not the same.


The elder Bush is named "George Herbert Walker Bush" and the younger is named "George Walker Bush."  So, technically, you are right.  I can't help but feel this is being a little pedantic, though, as reed was surely just trying to quickly distinguish between the father and the son, and the subject matter seems rather heavier than discussion of people's initials.


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## bbloke (Jul 21, 2006)

lilbandit said:


> What about this?http://sabbah.biz/mt/wp-mobile.php?p=1440&more=1


Very good find, lilbandit.  I think this fairly clearly illustrates that it is not a simple case of Good vs. Bad, or innocent self-defence against an unreasonable aggressor.  

It shows that some Israelis appear to take pleasure in waging war and they can also indoctrinate their youth... just as some of their opponents do.  That is: neither side can claim to be the Good Guy in all of this.


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## bbloke (Jul 21, 2006)

Taken from the BBC today:



			
				BBC said:
			
		

> Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora said the number of Lebanese killed in the 10 days of violence was more than 330.
> 
> In an interview with CNN he said that *more than 55 bridges had been destroyed, and that Israeli forces had also targeted ambulances and medical convoys.*
> 
> ...


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## reed (Jul 21, 2006)

I should have said...Bush daddy (vs Bush sonny boy). Sorry

  Yes, indeed, lilbandit, these are very shocking photos from this blog.

They will never really flush out the hardcore "terrorists." Hurt it, maybe. However, they will have ruined an economy, fragile as it is, killed many innocent civilians who have nothing to do with The Hezbollah and accomplished very little in the long run. It's SO classic! Luckily Bush Twit (do I need to say which one?) supports Israel 100% thinking they will do the "dirty work." The EC just may be thinking the same thing. Just a theory.
  There will be an invasion by ground troops, I'm sure, unless the USA says "no!"


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## bbloke (Jul 26, 2006)

Yesterday, I saw a snippet on the BBC (TV, not web site) where they told the stories of some of those in hospital in Lebanon.  An ambulance crew were there... they'd been shot at by the Israelis, while transferring casualties from one ambulance to another...  It very much looked as though the act had been deliberate.

Now we have news of a UN post being attacked by Israeli aircraft: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5215366.stm



			
				BBC site said:
			
		

> The UN in Lebanon says the Israeli air force destroyed the  post, in which four military observers were sheltering.
> 
> It said the four, from Austria, Canada, China and Finland, had taken shelter in a bunker under the post after it was earlier shelled 14 times by Israeli artillery.
> 
> ...


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## reed (Jul 26, 2006)

Yes indeed Bbloke. 

   Same information, more or less, here in Paris.

   Everybody is dithering. The UN base bombed by Israel will go down as "a detail" unless major protests are made from the countries whose members were killed and the UN itself insists on an investigation. I'm not counting on it in the long run. Like a lot of stuff going on in Lebenon. One thing is sure..."they" will never flush out the enemy.."en totale." However, they will have succeeded in making even more angry people in the region.
   Douze-Blazy, French Minister of Foreign Affairs who visited both Israel and Lebenon is seen here as a real "joke." Being such such a lightweight in foreign affaires....he is known in the French diplomatic corp as the "'Con' d'Orsay."  
 Meanwhile, Condi baby thinks now she may have to "find" a ceasefire. Ya right!! We all know where she & GWB stand. The pressure is on from the EC as well, but they too seem to lack the initiative. Any ideas?
  One thing is sure, this is the summer TV program that some of us will watch with interest and others will refuse to be bothered. Beach volley anyone?`

 Just a request from US TV news viewers...
  Does anybody have an idea of how the US network television news (CBS, MNBC, ABC, Fox, etc.) are reporting this drama on a daily basis (outside the internet that is).


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## Rhisiart (Jul 26, 2006)

reed said:


> The UN base bombed by Israel will go down as "a detail" unless major protests are made from the countries whose members were killed and the UN itself insists on an investigation. I'm not counting on it in the long run.


The UN observers were not white, so the Israelis and the US Administration will not lose any sleep over it, unless of course other countries kick up one almighty stink, as they should.

I am going to add an edit this statement. Most UN observers tend to be non-European/American. They include Brazilian, Indian and Pakistani observers, and of course many others.

All are well-trained and experts in what they do. But they don't carry any weight politically or with the media. 

For example thirty Pakistani peacekeepers in Somalia where massacred in 1993. Did they make a film about it? It barely made the press No, all the attention was on the disastrous American attempt to capture Adid's men (as in the film 'Black Hawk Down'). 

The Israelis are non-racist per se, they just know that the world will quickly get over a precision bomb landing on four Indian UN  overseers and within 24 hours it is old news.


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## reed (Jul 26, 2006)

China is asking for excuses. Big deal. "War is war." As the Israeli Press Secretary said earlier here..."these things happen in war and can't be avoided." Talk about synics.


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