# Challenge! Feelin' Lucky, PUNK?



## longston (Dec 6, 2007)

I will bet that no one can give me that answer to this problem, I don't care how seasoned of a Mac user/tech you are. Here's the problem, you give me the answer.... IF YOU CAN!

I just completed several upgrades to my 933Mhz iBook G4 including replacing the old (dead) 40Gb hard drive with a factory sealed 120Gb Seagate hard drive, replacing the original CW-8123-C combo drive with a new UJ-845 SuperDrive, and adding a 512Mb RAM module. After I reassembled the iBook, everything worked fine except the hard drive wouldn't show up *on the desktop, in Disk Utility, or in the System Profiler*.

I can easily boot the iBook from the OS 10.4 installer DVD, or an external hard drive using firewire. 

In fact, the iBook works perfectly when connected with a firewire cable to my external 160Gb Samsung hard drive running OS 10.4.10. It recognizes both that firewire drive, as well as an unformated Seagate FreeAgent Go 80Gb drive connected through USB. In fact, the computer runs flawlessly, aside from not recognizing the new internal Seagate drive I installed.

The new 120Gb internal hard drive also works fine outside of the iBook when connected to another computer through firewire, so the drive doesn't appear to be the problem.

I also replaced the hard drive ribbon cable in the iBook just in case that was damaged in the upgrade process, and it made no difference. I have no way of testing either cable to see if that is the problem. 

The new internal hard drive still doesn't work in my iBook.

Have you seen this problem before, is it a coincidental series of bad HD cables,  do you think it is related to a logic board problem, or can you suggest any other solutions?

Good Luck. I know the answer, and it's made many a tech say, WTF?


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## Lt Major Burns (Dec 7, 2007)

does any drive work internally within the iBook?


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## dixonbm (Dec 7, 2007)

My guess would be that the connectors for the hard drive ribbon cable are damaged. In other words you'll probably have to replace the whole board.


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## Mikuro (Dec 7, 2007)

I'm going to take the "WTF?" part to heart and say that it's gotta be a faulty power supply.


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## longston (Dec 7, 2007)

First, please remember that this is a resolved issue. The problem has been repaired, and the computer is now functioning properly. This is a brain teaser test to see if anyone I haven't told about this can figure it out.

So here we go:



Lt Major Burns said:


> does any drive work internally within the iBook?



The original factory 40Gb Hitachi Travelstar worked until it died. The replacement Seagate drive I had the problem with is working in the computer right now...

As for:



dixonbm said:


> My guess would be that the connectors for the hard drive ribbon cable are damaged. In other words you'll probably have to replace the whole board.



That was a good guess, but your diagnosis and the solution are both wrong. I replaced the ribbon cable, and inspected the connectors on it and the logic board. I could see no damage evident.



Mikuro said:


> I'm going to take the "WTF?" part to heart and say that it's gotta be a faulty power supply.



Remember that 





longston said:


> everything worked fine except the hard drive wouldn't show up *on the desktop, in Disk Utility, or in the System Profiler*.


 Another good guess, but you are also wrong.

Let me know when you've had enough...


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## sinclair_tm (Dec 7, 2007)

i'm guessing that there was some jumper not set right, or the ibook can't see a drive that large.


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## Qion (Dec 7, 2007)

Schizophrenia?


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## longston (Dec 7, 2007)

sinclair_tm said:


> i'm guessing that there was some jumper not set right, or the ibook can't see a drive that large.



This is an iBook G4. A notebook computer. There are two separate busses. One for the Optical Drive and another for the Hard Drive. There is no room inside of the case to add additional drives on those two separate dedicated internal ATA busses, so there is no reason to specify which master or slave. Besides, the pins on the drive that would select the jumper settings are connected within the connector that goes to the logic board.

Second, I specifically checked to see what the maximum allowable drive was for that computer before I purchased the replacement so there would be no capacity issues. Even if there were, there's always partitioning to cover that.

As for guesses like Schizophrenia, Digital Ghosts, Pixel Faeries, Sun Spots, Winchester Mystery House Syndrome, Alzheimers, Alien Abduction, Magnetic Anomalies and such nonsense...

Fergeddaboutit, yer break's ovah. Get back to work.


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## nixgeek (Dec 7, 2007)

longston said:


> Second, I specifically checked to see what the maximum allowable drive was for that computer before I purchased the replacement so there would be no capacity issues. Even if there were, there's always partitioning to cover that.



Not necessarily so.  If the controller can only address a certain maximum capacity, no amount of partitioning is going to allow you to retrieve the entire capacity of the hard drive.

For example, in some older Macs the integrated ATA controller can only address up to ~127 GB of maximum storage space.  If you were to hook up a 250 GB drive on that old ATA controller, all the ATA controller could address is the 127 GB because of the limitation of the ATA spec that this controller can support.  Even partitioning that drive would still only give you a total capacity of 127 GB to play around with.  The only way around this limitation is to use a controller card in the PCI slot that will support larger capacity hard drives, thus allowing you to use the entire 250 GB on the example above.

The 127 GB limit is something that was inherent with the ATA-66 controller in some older Macs.  This link has more about it:
http://www.lowendmac.com/macdan/05/1024.html


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## sinclair_tm (Dec 7, 2007)

then you had the cable upsidedown.  i know that some notebook cables are not keyed to prevent you from inserting the cable upsidedown.


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## longston (Dec 7, 2007)

nixgeek said:


> Not necessarily so.  If the controller can only address a certain maximum capacity, no amount of partitioning is going to allow you to retrieve the entire capacity of the hard drive.
> 
> For example, in some older Macs the integrated ATA controller can only address up to ~127 GB of maximum storage space.  If you were to hook up a 250 GB drive on that old ATA controller, all the ATA controller could address is the 127 GB because of the limitation of the ATA spec that this controller can support.  Even partitioning that drive would still only give you a total capacity of 127 GB to play around with.  The only way around this limitation is to use a controller card in the PCI slot that will support larger capacity hard drives, thus allowing you to use the entire 250 GB on the example above.
> 
> ...



And we thank you, Mr. Science, but this is a 120Gb internal drive in an iBook G4 933Mhz machine, so it's all so irrelevant to the issue before the dais. Please to apply considerable brainiac power to actual problem.



sinclair_tm said:


> then you had the cable upsidedown.  i know that some notebook cables are not keyed to prevent you from inserting the cable upsidedown.



Ooooohhhh, So Sorry, but that would be impossible to do, considering the configuration and routing of the drive vis-a-vis the cable and logic board connector. And remember, 





longston said:


> ...the pins on the drive that would select the jumper settings are connected within the connector that goes to the logic board.


 Go to http://www.ifixit.com and select the 14" iBook G4 guide for detailed diagrams on what I'm telling you here. I doubt that even M.C. Escher could put it in upside down. But don't feel like the Long Ranger on this one. Your Tonto was a DW tech at Alsoft.

Sorry, you're all very , very cold, and way far off the final solution.


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## DeltaMac (Dec 7, 2007)

Must have something to do with 'strange firmware installed on the hard drive from unknown sources' that some company tried to convince you was the fix. 
I would be curious how a third-party firm somehow comes up with a factory-specific firmware to flash the drive. I suspect they just reseated your drive ribbon cable, and it started working, and they had to come up with a plausible explanation for the 'fix'. Sounds bogus to me! But, of course, you have the now-working hard drive to show. Seems a moot point now!


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## Tefret (Dec 7, 2007)

well.   Being a tech, first think I would try after doing what you did, would be remove the new equipment you just installed.. Like the ram and the new dvd...  If that didn't make a difference, I'd check bios to make sure it shows up in there.. Depending on what it says, there is still a ton of things that could be tried.


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## nixgeek (Dec 8, 2007)

longston said:


> And we thank you, Mr. Science, but this is a 120Gb internal drive in an iBook G4 933Mhz machine, so it's all so irrelevant to the issue before the dais. Please to apply considerable brainiac power to actual problem.



No need for curtness, either, Mr. StateTheObvious.  I was speaking in general about what you stated, which was the following...  


> econd, I specifically checked to see what the maximum allowable drive was for that computer before I purchased the replacement so there would be no capacity issues. *Even if there were, there's always partitioning to cover that.*



I did check that your hard drive was a 120 GB from your original post so obviously yours was supported, plus your iBook uses the ATA-100 drive so you wouldn't have that limitation (you DID see that I mentioned ATA-66 having the problem of addressing over ~127 GB, didn't you Mr. OverlookTheFacts?).

My reply was in dispute of your claim that partitioning would overcome the limitation of addressing the entire capacity of the drive.  You might want to try and apply at least some brain power to actually READING a post.

And it this is already a resolved issue, why are you wasting everyone's time trying to figure it out?  Why not post how it was fixed in the HOW-TO/FAQs section and actually CONTRIBUTE to this community instead of wasting its time?  Doesn't take a brainiac's amount of mental power to think of that.

Good day.


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## Lt Major Burns (Dec 8, 2007)

you've got two drives that don't work.  try another.  if 3 drives don't work, it's the logic board.


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## Qion (Dec 8, 2007)

longston said:


> And we thank you, Mr. Science, but this is a 120Gb internal drive in an iBook G4 933Mhz machine, so it's all so irrelevant to the issue before the dais. Please to apply considerable brainiac power to actual problem.



Longston, in defense of what I thought was a factual and engaging post, you have made yourself look like a prolix ass. I've decided to "have enough" of this; you are not contributing to our community. Let's have the answer. Hopefully, after this thread, you can help us mere mortals by use of your incredible Mac-related cunning.


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## DeltaMac (Dec 8, 2007)

As I understand it, Longston shipped his iBook to a company for repairs. That company claimed that the replacement hard drive had some proprietary firmware installed. They re-flashed the drive, and all was working well OK. I suppose it's legit, but where does a third party get factory firmware from Seagate? I think that explanation is bogus.
However, Longston's hard drive is now functional, and he seems to be testing all you good folk, to see if you could come up with that unlikely fix without actually seeing the laptop - the repair company had that advantage.


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## nixgeek (Dec 8, 2007)

DeltaMac said:


> As I understand it, Longston shipped his iBook to a company for repairs. That company claimed that the replacement hard drive had some proprietary firmware installed. They re-flashed the drive, and all was working well OK. I suppose it's legit, but where does a third party get factory firmware from Seagate? I think that explanation is bogus.
> However, Longston's hard drive is now functional, and he seems to be testing all you good folk, to see if you could come up with that unlikely fix without actually seeing the laptop - the repair company had that advantage.



So in essence, he's just wasting our time with a non-issue.  I'm wondering if this is in retaliation for not having his problem answered before, as is evident in his previous threads.

http://macosx.com/forums/mac-os-x-system-mac-software/296901-hard-drive.html
http://macosx.com/forums/hardware-p...ive-missing-after-upgrades-made-ibook-g4.html

Still, it's no justification for being snarky.  I've had a few questions that have lingered unanswered even after bumping them after a week's time (as I'm sure many others have).  Not everyone is going to have the answer because they just don't have the experience with the problem.  Better to have no answer than to get misinformation.


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## Viro (Dec 8, 2007)

Was that the problem? Or perhaps it was this?


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## pds (Dec 8, 2007)

ROFL @ Viro

I installed a  new SATA 160 gig in my Macbook. It was invisible to the MacBook but showed up when I connected to another Mac via Target Mode. I tried using Disk Utility to Erase it, and then could see it and copy to it, but it was still invisible to the MacBook itself. It was only after partitioning it as one partition while in Target Mode that I was able to select it and install the OS. Now I have free space again!!! 

Without having your computer in hand, it would be hard to say what the problem was, though since "was" is the operative word, the best tech advice I have is the Egyptian "Mabrook" (a kind of greeting that congratulates you for your good luck). I will be watching to see the unveiling of the actual solution.


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## longston (Dec 8, 2007)

nixgeek said:


> No need for curtness, either, Mr. StateTheObvious.



Oops, sorry you got the wrong impression, but this was designed to be a humorous AND educational post. I wasn't intending to ruffle your feathers. I just assumed you were secure enough in your knowledge to have a little fun poked at it...



nixgeek said:


> I was speaking in general about what you stated, which was the following...
> I did check that your hard drive was a 120 GB from your original post so obviously yours was supported, plus your iBook uses the ATA-100 drive so you wouldn't have that limitation (you DID see that I mentioned ATA-66 having the problem of addressing over ~127 GB, didn't you Mr. OverlookTheFacts?).



The minute I wrote the comment about partitioning, I just KNEW someone would probably pounce on it like it was a loose $20 bill on a sidewalk. I really regret even mentioning it. I didn't overlook the facts, I just didn't see the point of you going on about partitioning when it was both irrelevant to the matter at hand, and therefore, basically off topic.



nixgeek said:


> My reply was in dispute of your claim that partitioning would overcome the limitation of addressing the entire capacity of the drive.  You might want to try and apply at least some brain power to actually READING a post.



Yes, yes, I get it. You feel a need to be defensive, so you will now lash out at me and try to impune my reading skills. It's fine, my testicles are often used for internet forum kid's parties if no inflatable bouncy castles are available to rent. (this is smart-ass humor, not an invitation for a flame war, 'k?)

OK, here's the deal, I had a problem once with a hard drive that was 4Gb, and the computer could only work with it if I partitioned it into two 2Gb drives, so remembering that, I made my comment about partitioning. 



nixgeek said:


> And it this is already a resolved issue, why are you wasting everyone's time trying to figure it out?  Why not post how it was fixed in the HOW-TO/FAQs section and actually CONTRIBUTE to this community instead of wasting its time?  Doesn't take a brainiac's amount of mental power to think of that.



Wow, grumble, grumble, bitch, bitch, etc. Back to reading skills. The title of this thread is "Challenge! Feelin' Lucky, PUNK?". What kind of thread did you expect it to be? I also tried to make it clear that this was a resolved issue and a challenge to see if anyone could guess what the resolution was.



nixgeek said:


> Good day.



And a good day to you, sir.


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## longston (Dec 8, 2007)

Tefret said:


> well.   Being a tech, first think I would try after doing what you did, would be remove the new equipment you just installed.. Like the ram and the new dvd...  If that didn't make a difference, I'd check bios to make sure it shows up in there.. Depending on what it says, there is still a ton of things that could be tried.



Did all of that, didn't solve the problem.

I'm not sure I understand "bios" on a Mac. Could you explain?


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## longston (Dec 8, 2007)

Lt Major Burns said:


> you've got two drives that don't work.  try another.  if 3 drives don't work, it's the logic board.



Nope, it's not the logic board...


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## longston (Dec 8, 2007)

DeltaMac said:


> Must have something to do with 'strange firmware installed on the hard drive from unknown sources' that some company tried to convince you was the fix.
> I would be curious how a third-party firm somehow comes up with a factory-specific firmware to flash the drive. I suspect they just reseated your drive ribbon cable, and it started working, and they had to come up with a plausible explanation for the 'fix'. Sounds bogus to me! But, of course, you have the now-working hard drive to show. Seems a moot point now!



Nope. And just because you don't fully understand how it was fixed is no reason to claim that the solution is "bogus". 

I followed your advice when I posted this in tech help back at the beginning of November, and it didn't resolve the problem (no disrespect meant), but it led me to finding the solution, and I have not had anyone so far that knows what fixed it say, "of course, I should have thought of that". 

That's why I posted this thread as a "challenge", so we could have some fun with a brain teaser, see if anyone actually has had a similar experience, and maybe end up learning something that is so unique that no one so far has told me that they've ever heard of it before.


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## longston (Dec 8, 2007)

Qion said:


> Longston, in defense of what I thought was a factual and engaging post, you have made yourself look like a prolix ass. I've decided to "have enough" of this; you are not contributing to our community. Let's have the answer. Hopefully, after this thread, you can help us mere mortals by use of your incredible Mac-related cunning.



Hey, there's no nnnneeeed (intentional spelling) to be rude here. 

I believe your contribution was. 





Qion said:


> Schizophrenia?


Well, I guess compared to that, my postings are "prolix", but to call me a "prolix ass", and to be so harsh is a little over the top, what?

Then, I'm accused of "not contributing", and admonished to _"help us mere mortals by use of your incredible Mac-related cunning."_ Say what?

I'm beginning to get the impression that some of us need to re-install our Sense Of Humor For Internet Forums software...


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## longston (Dec 8, 2007)

DeltaMac said:


> As I understand it, Longston shipped his iBook to a company for repairs. That company claimed that the replacement hard drive had some proprietary firmware installed. They re-flashed the drive, and all was working well OK. I suppose it's legit, but where does a third party get factory firmware from Seagate? I think that explanation is bogus.
> However, Longston's hard drive is now functional, and he seems to be testing all you good folk, to see if you could come up with that unlikely fix without actually seeing the laptop - the repair company had that advantage.



I related this problem to numerous experienced and seasoned Mac techs beginning with my local Apple authorized dealer, and going so far as to contact specialists in the area of hard drives and logic boards around the country. I have discussed it with people via phone and email, and posted this issue on various forums, including here in tech help, and in the hardware forum, where I had no response from anyone. I even took it to two Apple authorized repair stations for them to diagnose, and both were wrong.

I just wanted to see if anyone ever had a similar experience with a hard drive, or if someone could guess what the solution was before I shared my experience with everyone here for future reference.


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## nixgeek (Dec 8, 2007)

I understood that you meant this for fun when you posted.  I actually READ your entire post so I knew what the thread was about.  However, I felt that what you said about partitioning needed correcting (you said that this was also an _educational_ post, correct).  I don't see the problem with that.  Many have corrected me here and I have taken their corrections to heart.  I was merely trying to give you some factual information under the assumption that you might not have been aware of the fact.

And if you knew talking about partitioning was going to get a response from someone that would have corrected you on your error, why did you even mention it?  Granted, you used information you had knowledge of.  All you had to say was "you're right, my mistake" (which we've all done here now and again), but you chose to take another route.  So who's confidence was in question when you decided to poke fun at my response to your error?

Where you failed was in assuming that everyone would "get" your "humor", and the fun part of the thread went away.  And still, you continue with the snide remarks and the veiled sarcasm (not just with me but everyone else).  Expect to be confronted when you respond to people like that, especially in a forum where contexts can be misconstrued due to lack of emotional display.  In the real world, one would interpret your body language along with such comments and either understand you and laugh or punch you in the face.  Depending on how you really meant it, it's no wonder you chose the safety of  a forum on _teh internets_ to let loose your "humor".

You want to have fun with the rest of us?  Check the "Bob's Place" section and see how we all deal with one another in a fun way.  Seeing as you have only posted a few times since you created your account back in 2005, you might need to get a feel for how we all interact with one another here.  So far, I don't think you're gaining much support in your favor.


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## longston (Dec 8, 2007)

nixgeek said:


> So in essence, he's just wasting our time with a non-issue.  I'm wondering if this is in retaliation for not having his problem answered before, as is evident in his previous threads.
> 
> http://macosx.com/forums/mac-os-x-system-mac-software/296901-hard-drive.html
> http://macosx.com/forums/hardware-p...ive-missing-after-upgrades-made-ibook-g4.html



I never stated that it was an issue. I thought I was clear about this being something that was resolved all along. I'm sorry you feel that way, but it was never my intention to waste anyone's time. 

As for "retaliation", that is ludicrous. The first thread was posted by Macosx.com, not by me. The second thread, _"hard-drive-missing-after-upgrades-made"_ was my original attempt to get assistance, and as anyone can plainly see, despite 105 views, there wasn't a single response, but I just went elsewhere for advice.

This thread is just my warped way of sharing my experiences with getting a solution to a problem that stumped me, along with almost everyone I asked for assistance from. I thought it would be fun to see if anyone had a similar experience, could guess how my computer ended up being fixed, and present it as a sort of brain teaser / test of mac hardware knowledge, not to waste anyone's time or just be obnoxious.

However, I do find it interesting that with a change of title to _"Challenge! Feelin' Lucky, PUNK?"_, I get all kinds of responses. What's up with that?



nixgeek said:


> Still, it's no justification for being snarky.



Senor, we don' got to have no stinkin' justification for being snarky. Some of my favorite people are impertinent, sarcastic, dismissive, and yes, even snarky. Perhaps along with an upgrade of our Sense Of Humor For Internet Forums software, I might also suggest a copy of the Snarky Humor module v 1.0.1 for macosx.

And speaking of snarky, what did you expect from a thread with the title _"Challenge! Feelin' Lucky, PUNK?"_ A truly snarky title for a thread if I ever did see one. . .


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## longston (Dec 8, 2007)

Viro said:


> Was that the problem? Or perhaps it was this?



Finally, someone has found the answer! Yes, it's true, it was my cats all along!


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