# MacOS X.4 User Interface Idea



## cockneygeezer (Nov 21, 2003)

Dear All,

I probably get flamed to bits for this, or even worst, get banned from this website, but I want to test peoples opinion on the following.

As we all know, Microsoft has ripped off the Mac interface for years. Yes, I know that Apple copied Xerox etc etc. But, why can't Apple rip off Windows XP? I know we do in some respect...

The reason that I ask is in conjunction with the new Aqua Finder in Panther 10.3. Steve Jobs claims that the new Finder Folder Panel is based upon iTunes playlists. Come on Steve, we not that stupid. We know that you are a couple of steps away from an Interface like Windows. But is this a bad thing?

I work with both Windows and Macintosh in my work environment and I like the idea that you can quickly type in an web address into the environment window, instead web browser.

To illustrate what the hell I am on about, I have made up a mock Finder window, which I think would be a great addition to MacOS X.4. We already have an input field box in our Finder window, why can't we put an Internet address in there as well and surf to that page?

Some people might argue that this might be an unfair advantage to other web browsers on the Mac blah blah blah. I ask you, how many of us really use anything about from Safari? 5%? (see past posts for results)

Personally, I would welcome this methodology to the Mac, what about you?

Discuss...

PS: I would do a Poll, but I can't seem to find it? It seems we can't do them anymore


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## bobw (Nov 21, 2003)

As long as we're talking lazy, how about a beer tap up there along with a bag of chips.


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## mindbend (Nov 21, 2003)

As much as I hate Windows, I do like the in-Finder web browsing ability. With Mail and Safari sharing an HTML rendering engine, I imagine it would be very doable to add that ot the Finder.


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## bobw (Nov 21, 2003)

I guess if I kept a Finder window open, it would be handy, but I rarely have one open and always have Safari open.


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## Cube (Nov 21, 2003)

I like the idea.  Perhaps Apple is already thinking about it, hence the need to develop a browser like Safari in the first place.


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## Arden (Nov 21, 2003)

That sounds like a good idea.  It could open the URL in your specified default browser instead of just Safari, could be useful at times.  Also, showing columns based on metadata of certain files like size and resolution for images or bit rate and length for songs would be cool.

BTW, you have to be a contributing member (read: one who has donated) or a moderator/admin to post polls.


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## Captain Code (Nov 21, 2003)

The only problem with that is that Safari would have to be integrated into the Finder, which is one reason M$ is in court for building IE into their OS.


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## Pengu (Nov 21, 2003)

Along the same sort of idea, if we had the option to use something like the windows "Run" command, we could then do anything. simmilar to the connect to server dialog, but set up so that it recognizes the default helpers. so if you enter a generic web address, or specify http: it will use the default browser, mailto: will open the mail client, ftp: the ftp client, and also allow it to run commands locally, like typing /Applications/iTunes.app to run itunes, or pico to run pico in a terminal session. this is one thing i think would be of great use to power users.


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## Koelling (Nov 22, 2003)

Power users already have this: Terminal.

it will edit your files in pico, ftp, it will even provide psychriatic help in emacs. the command open http://www.apple.com -- opens a new browser window with apple.com in it.

you can already type /Applications/iTunes.app/Contents/MacOS/iTunes or open -a itunes is much simpler. 

Maybe it's just me but this browser/finder combo sounds like a very bad idea. It blurs lines which don't need to be blurred and makes bloat. Want a perfectly good browser/file browser? use Omniweb it's pretty full featured. No, not everyone uses Safari, it's pretty lacking in features.


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## hulkaros (Nov 22, 2003)

Or use a simple app like LaunchBar  which does the above thing and loads of other cool stuff


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## cockneygeezer (Nov 22, 2003)

Captain Code said:
			
		

> The only problem with that is that Safari would have to be integrated into the Finder, which is one reason M$ is in court for building IE into their OS.




True in some respect, but as we all know, the Mac is customisable, so you in effect, turn it off. At the moment, we can customise the Toolbar in our Finder Windows, so if you choose not to have this option, you don't have it.

The problem with Windows (from my understanding) is that the users don't have that luxury. 

On the whole from the feedback receive on this thread, users think that it's a good idea. As mentioned before, I think that Apple could get away with it, either with Courts and users, if Apple supplys the option to turn it off.

I have already submitted the idea to Apple.com, we just have to wait and see now. The ball is in their court now...


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## Pengu (Nov 22, 2003)

I know that Koelling. But its a bit different being able to hit Cmd-R (run?) and typing something, and having to open terminal type what you want, and quit it again afterwards. kinda defeats the purpose.


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## themacko (Nov 22, 2003)

cockneygeezer said:
			
		

> Come on Steve, we not that stupid.


 Speak for yourself!


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## fryke (Nov 22, 2003)

Hmm... I'm all for a keystroke that invokes a small text-line input field. There, you could issue Terminal commands as well as URLs, E-Mail addresses, application names... It'd basically replace LaunchBar for me, of course, but LaunchBar doesn't do _any_ URLs, just bookmarks...


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## chevy (Nov 22, 2003)

I'd like to be able to browse my disks in Safari...

Having the Internet in the Finder looks a bit like Sherlock... not really adapted.


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## spitty27 (Nov 22, 2003)

wouldn't apple just have to implement webkit into the finder? would this slow down navigating on your local disk


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## fryke (Nov 23, 2003)

The question for me is: Do I _want_ the Finder to also act as a webbrowser... And really: I don't think I want that. Windows actually uses IE to also display 'Finder' windows (I know that it's not called Finder there, thus the 's...).

I think it's much better to have a separate Finder. More features to the Finder: Yes. Webbrowsing: No.


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## onegoodpenguin (Nov 23, 2003)

I've been using Mozilla variants on my Windows box exclusively for over a year (read: no IE.  I now launch the app about once a month, for WindowsUpdate purposes).  It bothers me that, essentially, resources are loaded that I never use.  I can do everything under the sun to minimize resource utilization, short of running an alternative shell/file browser, and MS still has me by the balls.  Just makes Linux feel that much more friendly.

So no, I don't think Apple should do this.  I highly doubt that there would be a simple checkbox in System Preferences for turning the 'feature' on and off.

I do, however, LOVE the idea of a run-like dialog box that is quick and simple.


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## JetwingX (Nov 23, 2003)

ok, personally i would like to have a little bar tha acts like the "go to folder" comand in the go menu with a little variance. like if you put in HTTP web addresses it automatically opens you default web browser or if you go to a FTP address it would act like connect to server. but i don't ever want to see a a browser integrated directly in to the finder. i think that would cause more problems than it would solve


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## mindbend (Nov 23, 2003)

A web browser is just a window the web. There's no reason the Finder couldn't be the same thing. Sherlock used to be separate Find utility. Now it's built in to the Finder windows. Perfect integration.

I would welcome Finder web browsing. The distinction is solely in our heads because that's what we're used to. Already the Finder supports FTP connections (though not the same thing at all as web page viewing, but still, it's a connection visualization).

In fact, if you look at Safari, it's got a very similar interface already to the Finder. I guess for some reason it makes people feel better to separate the two, but again, there's no functional or technical reason I can think of why NOT to just add web browsing to the Finder (not necessarily as the exclusive web browser, per Windows forthcoming, but as a quick and dirty option for basic viewing).


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## Pengu (Nov 23, 2003)

As someone else said, resource use. Why bog down your file-manager with the code to view a webpage, when you might not want to view any webpages at all. Or what if you dont want to use the Apple browser? As for the "load an ftp connection like connect to server", I'd prefer if this respected the system wide ftp client (finder by default, use something like MoreInternet to change it)


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## spitty27 (Nov 23, 2003)

what I would REALLY love to see is the contextual menu item to Arrange>by Name, Date Modified, Date Created, Size, Kind, and Label back like it was in OS 9, and so we dont have to go up the the menu bar, and go to View>Arrange> .......

see attached...if you still dont get what i mean, i want besically the whole view menu as a context. menu item.


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## celeborn (Nov 23, 2003)

oh dear. What needs to be changed in th Finder before anything else is the chaotic way it handles windows. Ever since the launch of OS X the Finder has been bad and it hasn't really fundamentally been improved - it's still a mix between a file browser and the old type of spatial Finder. It's frustrating to have new windows appearing when you don't expect them to, or different folders looking different while browsing them. In a file _browser_, if you choose to use eg. "icon view" it should stay that way _all the time_. Apple should clearly separate the spatial Finder from the browser Finder, simply by changing the "New Window" in the File menu to "New Browser". Normal double-clicking in the Finder would result in OS 9 -style windows. A very comprehensive critique by John Siracusa on the Finder can be found at ArsTechnica and is worth reading:

http://arstechnica.com/paedia/f/finder/finder-1.html

the article was written before Panther, but as can be read from a Panther Review by the same author, nothing has really changed in the Panther Finder - they just added shortcuts and made it brushed metal.


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## phatcactus (Nov 23, 2003)

The Finder should not be a web browser for the same reasons Safari should not be a music manager and iTunes should not be an image editor and Photoshop should not be a text editor.  

Celeborn: that article should be read by every Mac user -- nay, _computer user_ -- in the world.  Thank you very much for pointing it out.


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## xaqintosh (Nov 26, 2003)

This is the Unix philosophy: Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a universal interface. 
- http://www.faqs.org/docs/artu/ch01s06.html

Putting too many features in a single application causes bloat.


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## Arden (Nov 27, 2003)

That was a really good article, and it goes along the lines of what I've always thought about the OS X Finder.  Despite the improvements OS X has over OS 9, I still like using OS 9 because it is speedy and it works like it feels like it should.  OS X creates windows as if they were browser windows, as the article said, and while that works well for a web page (it's easy to open the same page in multiple browsers), it's annoying in OS X.

Another thing that bugs me is file selection.  As it is, you can select files in any open window, including the desktop, and they will stay selected.  This can have its advantages, but more often than not I want just one item selected.  If it allowed you to move files from multiple folders simultaneously, then I would retract this whole paragraph; but as it is, my statements stand as my opinion.


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## MDLarson (Nov 27, 2003)

_I_ don't want a browser in my Finder window.


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## mindbend (Nov 28, 2003)

From phatacactus:

"The Finder should not be a web browser for the same reasons Safari should not be a music manager and iTunes should not be an image editor and Photoshop should not be a text editor."

I considered the same, but there's a key differencewe're not talking about having the Finder being some kind of development tool for manipulating files, bitmaps, song lists or otherwise. It's JUST A WINDOW.

At the outset, not one single thing needs to change in functionality in the Finder from the user end. Simply make the Search field URL-friendly so when you type www.apple.com the Finder window is replaced with web content. Again, it's just a portal, not a dev tool. 

I don't see people talking about removing iDisk access from the Finder. Cuz after all, we really should be using a separate FTP program right?  And while we're at it, let's remove network access, cuz we should use some special Samba-access tool or OS 9's God-awful Chooser.  

I understand eeryone's points, I really do, I just think that in the end, done properly, Finder-based web access can make a lot of sense, be very convenient and open up interface efficiency oppurtunities we have not yet considered. Here's one that just came to me. Imagine having a client's development folder in the Finder (Dreamweaver, Photoshop, Illustrator dev files) and you click on another folder or file in the Finder, and boom, you're at their website (the one you created using those dev files). It's a small example that wouldn't matter to most people, but I do that sort of thing all the time and it would be nice to have it right there in the Finder.

Now if adding web browsing to the Finder somehow cripples or slows down the Finder, then obviously, I dont' want it. But that's just speculation. I would think Apple could get that done very well. They do it well in Safari and Mail.


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## phatcactus (Nov 28, 2003)

> At the outset, not one single thing needs to change in functionality in the Finder from the user end. Simply make the Search field URL-friendly so when you type www.apple.com the Finder window is replaced with web content. Again, it's just a portal, not a dev tool.


The search field is not a place to enter urls; it's a place to enter search terms.     An address field, however, is a good idea, even without web access.  Since the OS X Finder is essentially a file system browser, a path to the current directory would be a logical part of the window.  I think command-clicking the title is as close as we've got right now.



> I don't see people talking about removing iDisk access from the Finder. Cuz after all, we really should be using a separate FTP program right?  And while we're at it, let's remove network access, cuz we should use some special Samba-access tool or OS 9's God-awful Chooser.


In fact, I don't think we should be using separate FTP clients at all, even for FTP.    Browsing an FTP server is just like browsing a local file system, and that's what the Finder is for.  I've never used an iDisk, but I assume it's the same concept.



> Imagine having a client's development folder in the Finder (Dreamweaver, Photoshop, Illustrator dev files) and you click on another folder or file in the Finder, and boom, you're at their website (the one you created using those dev files). It's a small example that wouldn't matter to most people, but I do that sort of thing all the time and it would be nice to have it right there in the Finder.


That's possible now.  Just create a .webloc file by dragging the URL from a text field, most likely your browser's address field, the same way you'd make a text clipping.  Opening that file will open its URL (in your web browser, of course.)  The same can be done for FTP and Email.


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## MDLarson (Nov 28, 2003)

How 'bout, with this nifty text field, being able to browse volumes with Finder windows (like deleting "Pictures/" might bring you up one level to your "Users/" folder.  Internet Explorer has this feature (Safari doesn't.)  I could see *this* as being a part of the Finder window.

But if it begins with http:// or some other web-url prefix, it'll open up a new page in your default web browser to that address.


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## Arden (Nov 30, 2003)

Either way, the Finder needs to return to 1:1 object navigation, as the Ars Technica described it, whereby a folder may only display its contents in one location, either via a disclosure triangle in a parent folder or in its own window.  Until that happens, everything else can wait IMO.


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## phatcactus (Dec 1, 2003)

If the Finder returns to 1:1 object navigation, then the address field feature we've described here would simply break it.    I'm sadly confident that it will not happen, however, as 10.3 seems to have moved even further away from the classic Finder model.


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## MacGizmo (Dec 1, 2003)

cockneygeezer said:
			
		

> Dear All,
> 
> I probably get flamed to bits for this, or even worst, get banned from this website, but I want to test peoples opinion on the following.
> 
> ...


Don't ask how I know (cause I won't tell ya), but it IS being worked on. Safari is more than just a web browser!


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## fryke (Dec 1, 2003)

Well, WebKit is out there. Anyone can write a system-addon that takes care of it. PathFinder could add webbrowsing functions, if they wanted that... And of course Apple could implement it into Finder - no problem... Unless: From a UI standpoint, it maybe doesn't make _that_ much sense... Also: Would 'home' take you to your home folder or homepage? ;-)


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## solrac (Dec 4, 2003)

I think it could be done in an easy way:

if address typed into finder starts with http://, just open safari and attempt to go to page.

What would be more useful is having an HTML preview of HTML pages in the preview window of the finder!! C'mon Apple!!


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## ApeintheShell (Dec 6, 2003)

I think Sherlock should be intergrated into the Finder. 

Why go to weather.com and waste your time downloading images
when you can access it from the finder.


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## Don Guijote (Dec 6, 2003)

Hi,
Interesting question. I want to add some more point-of-view). We must separate the concept of web-browsing (view HTML, Flash, Java, etc) from ftp-browsing (view folders and files).
I think that if we can browse between our own computer, and over our LAN, why can't we browse in the same way over the rest of the net?
If we can search file on our Mac, in the same way we would search on the net.

The only difference is the way the information is shown. In HTML the things looks as their creators wants (menus, graphics, sounds...); in the Finder, things looks like our computer saves the files.

I'm a detractor of M$, but their idea is good. The difference is that other programs do each task better than their OS. But they knows that if the new user don't know about better programs, they don't use them, and then these programs don't sell, and it goes to close and dissapear, and goes to M$ monopoly.

Sorry for my poor English (I'm Spanish). I hope you understand me. Thanx.

Best regards.


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## phatcactus (Dec 6, 2003)

> Why go to weather.com and waste your time downloading images when you can access it from the finder.



Why further clutter the Finder when you can access it from Sherlock?



> The only difference is the way the information is shown.



The difference isn't actually the way the information is shown; it's *the information*.  Web sites are composed of text, images, flash content, etc., while hard drives and FTP sites are composed of files, folders, applications, etc.  The idea of viewing web content in the same space you view a disk's contents is fundamentally flawed.

An HTML preview in the Finder, however, I could understand.  OS X has built in previews for graphics, text, video, and sound, so why not HTML?  I'm not sure how useful it would be given the preview area's size, but I certainly wouldn't complain if it existed.


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## bjurusik (Dec 6, 2003)

solrac said:
			
		

> I think it could be done in an easy way:
> 
> if address typed into finder starts with http://, just open safari and attempt to go to page.
> 
> What would be more useful is having an HTML preview of HTML pages in the preview window of the finder!! C'mon Apple!!



I agree with solrac's idea.  Web browsing should be left to Safari.  However, perhaps better Finder integration in Safari could help.  Suppose there was an option in Safari to have a side pane, or drawer, that contained a hierarchial (sp) listing of your hard drive, that way you could just drag web content to wherever you wanted, instead of having to use the Save As feature or open a Finder window.


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