# Someone try jaguar?



## alito (May 9, 2002)

If someone try jaguar, please make a review of how it works.
Speed
power
if is usable now , being a beta
etc


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## ddma (May 9, 2002)

On OS X 10.2 right now... For 3 hours only. Installed it on an external harddisk. Fail to boot from iPod... 

Don't know what if Quartz Extreme has enabled or not. But scrolling and Flash is faster. Flash is comparable with PeeCee machines now!!!!


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## alito (May 9, 2002)

ddma you have a supported card? for quartz extreme


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## ddma (May 9, 2002)

PowerBook 667 Radeon 16MB with 2 displays. 1152x768 and 1280x1024.


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## ulrik (May 9, 2002)

Quartz Extreme is optimized for 32mb VRAM and up (that's what apple said)


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## ddma (May 9, 2002)

Yes. But I wanna know if it is enabled or not. I don't know where can find the information.


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## celeborn (May 9, 2002)

How about live window resizing - any improvements with that? Anyone out there with more VRAM?


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## WoLF (May 9, 2002)

I love 10.2. Its SUPER FAST. Nice new pinwheel loading thingy, mail.app, prefrence panes, and more.

What I love most is the speed! I'll post some screen shots after while.


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## wdw_ (May 9, 2002)

I'm still trying to install it. I installed it on my internal drive. When I started up it just stopped at a blue screen with a pointer that was unresponsive. I tried installing it on my iPod, that just plain didn't work. I'm about to try it on my external drive. I did catch a glimpse of the new aqua pinwheel. I love how the pointer has a tiny shadow.


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## Trip (May 9, 2002)

Sounds awsome! Get some pics up here if you can guys!
And does anybody know what happened to 10.1.5? There were beta's floating around Carracho and it made me wonder if one of these is possible:

1) Apple decided to screw 10.1.5 and go straight to 10.2.
2) 10.1.5 is out right now and I should really try upgrading to 10.1.4.

Hehe, ever since I installed 10.1.3 I've failed to upgrade anything, so I'm far behind all of you guys.


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## celeborn (May 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Trip _
> *
> 1) Apple decided to screw 10.1.5 and go straight to 10.2.
> *



No way, 10.2 won't probably be out for another four months ("late summer"). Anyway, we only got 10.1.4 a short while ago, and 10.1.5 has just been seeded to developers. What's your hurry?


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## wdw_ (May 9, 2002)

Oh man! Apple-tab works in 10.2, but pushing shift while still holding down apple dosen't go in the other direction.

If you don't know what I'm talking about, go *here*.


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## thisbechuck (May 9, 2002)

i suppose it is taboo or something to talk about this on the forums, but where do you find these beta versions? (either PM me or e-mail me at czaffa@earthlink.net if you dont want to type on the forum)


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## phatsharpie (May 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by wdw_ _
> *Oh man! Apple-tab works in 10.2, but pushing shift while still holding down apple dosen't go in the other direction.
> 
> If you don't know what I'm talking about, go here. *



Does Apple + ` work in the Finder yet? I think it's so stupid that it bring up the "go to" prompt right now...


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## WoLF (May 9, 2002)

phatsharpie no:

As for software compatibility, it SUCKS. I cant run half my stuff in it. Games are slow.

Hey wdw, I saw you on carracho before. 
Here's some pics





iChat





Minimized stuff in dock





Quicktime 6





System Prefs


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## Izzy (May 9, 2002)

Awesome screenshots WoLF!  Hey quick question about iChat...

How do those speech bubbles really work out?  Are they as annoying as I imagine them to be?  Is there a way to turn them off?


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## wdw_ (May 9, 2002)

I have 10.2 as well and I can tell you that the iChat bubbles aren't that bad. The pictures instead of just a name is great.

If someone with iChat wants to IM me, my mac.com name is wdw_.


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## wdw_ (May 9, 2002)

Here's a new feature. When you take a screen shot, it saves it as a PDF.


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## wdw_ (May 9, 2002)

OK. Here's something else I found out. iChat has an option between using balloons or boxes. Check the attachment.


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## Trip (May 9, 2002)

What servers do you guys hang out around on Carracho? And what's your user names? I want to visit you guys in real-chat sometime...and since the Chatrooms at MacOSX.com arn't very...uhm...*fullfilling* carracho would be best.


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## wdw_ (May 9, 2002)

WoLF and I got our copies of 10.2 from a server that will remain un-named, but I hardly ever chat on carracho.


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## rinse (May 9, 2002)

this is all so exciting. cant wait till september!


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## Trip (May 9, 2002)

wdw_: I'd (and Apple, and Admin) would all most likely appriciate it if you would please edit that server out of your message. Illegal distribution of Mac OS 10.2 wasn't called for here. Sorry if that was a huge mis-understanding. And sorry if that all sounded rude.

But really, I just want to chat with you guys. I could have sworn you went under the alias Forcer...but I could be wrong.


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## wdw_ (May 9, 2002)

I took out the name.

I've gone by wdw_, marceline407, iluvwdw_2001, i_m_w_disney, s_jobs, jonathan davis and there are probably some more, but never forcer.


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## Trip (May 9, 2002)

wdw_: thanks for editing your post. You've done the right thing. 

I said your name was Forcer because one of the videos you've "made" was also found from a friend on mine on Carracho who comes from Norway. I have to beleive that it's his video, because he shot more vids with the same characters and himself in it.

P.S. (It's your StarWars type video)


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## wdw_ (May 9, 2002)

My video is on carracho?


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## Trip (May 9, 2002)

wdw_: expect to get a PM from me in a little bit, you need to do what is in that message please.

Anyway, we've gone quite a bit off topic (from 10.2 updates to Carracho video's and warez) so let's get back on topic, wdw_ and I will discuss this further outside of this thread.


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## PowermacG4_450 (May 9, 2002)

where is 10.2 at? software update is not finding it. is it a beta you all got, or the final? where can I get it?


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## Trip (May 9, 2002)

Version 10.2 is not officially released yet. It's illegal if you currently have it downloaded/installed. I strongly sugguest you wait until it comes out officially...


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## wdw_ (May 9, 2002)

If you were at WWDC it's not illegal.


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## BlingBling 3k12 (May 9, 2002)

september is when you will get it.... it's still in beta...

10.1.5 is expected to be the next release before 10.2


edit: damn! 3 replies to the same question in an instant!


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## ~~NeYo~~ (May 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by BlingBling 3k12 _
> *september is when you will get it.... it's still in beta...
> 
> 10.1.5 is expected to be the next release before 10.2
> ...



Neyo would like to challenge BlingBling for his "Title" hehe!  

NeYo


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## BlingBling 3k12 (May 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ~~NeYo~~ _
> *Neyo would like to challenge BlingBling for his "Title" hehe!  *



you're on! (and i'll probably lose... you know the in's and out's of XP probably)

but first... check your PRIVATE MESSAGES!!!!!! i've sent you one!  question needing answered!


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## Izzy (May 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by wdw_ _
> *OK. Here's something else I found out. iChat has an option between using balloons or boxes. Check the attachment. *



Cool...thanks for the screenshot wdw.  

So the bubbles aren't that bad huh?  I guess I'll just have to see it in use to get the full effect.  

Another thing I just thought of...is there a logging feature on this IM client?  That's the main reason why I'm using Adium right now (besides the one windowed tabbed view option) and I couldn't see myself using a client that doesn't have it.  Hopefully Apple has included logging with iChat...


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## wdw_ (May 9, 2002)

Here's another shot. This is a comparison shot.


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## phatsharpie (May 9, 2002)

Anyone knows if iChat would have the ability to chat with people on Yahoo! IM? Or if there is a plugin API so a plugin could be made to interact with YIM.

I only use YIM and AOLIM, and it'd be great to be able to work with both in one app.


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## wdw_ (May 9, 2002)

I know iChat currently only works with AIM. Apple might add more services with iChat 2.


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## Lazarus18 (May 10, 2002)

If you're wanting to keep all your chats in one app, why not use Fire? I'm going to have to be really blown away by iChat to move off of Fire, I think it's great. AIM, MSN, YIM, Jabber, all under one roof.


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## wdw_ (May 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Lazarus18 _
> *If you're wanting to keep all your chats in one app, why not use Fire? I'm going to have to be really blown away by iChat to move off of Fire, I think it's great. AIM, MSN, YIM, Jabber, all under one roof. *


*This * thread has some reasons of why not to just do that.


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## thisbechuck (May 10, 2002)

Izzy had a really good question that I hope one of you that has access to the iChat application can answer: does it include logging?


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## lethe (May 10, 2002)

wdw: i think it s funny that trip asked you what carracho server you used, and then when you told him, he asked you to delete it.

trip, carracho is not really for chatting.  it is pretty much only for downloading files.  (maybe to chat about what files to download)

_Edit:  I stand corrected_


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## wdw_ (May 10, 2002)

Actually, Trip and I had a nice little chat on a carracho server right after those posts.


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## phatsharpie (May 10, 2002)

I do use Fire right now, but if I can use Yahoo! IM with iChat, I might just use it instead. Especially if I can transfer files, etc. using it. I do like Fire a lot though, if iChat doesn't offer me much incentive to use it, I'll probably just stay with it.


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## wdw_ (May 10, 2002)

You know, I never chat. I never go into chat rooms, I never IM friends. iChat makes me want to start chatting.


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## ddma (May 10, 2002)

Wow... Just tried running BBEdit, I finally can scrolling a long source very smoothly!!! Also, resizing is improved I can tell. But not much. Still lag behind my mouse if the window has many content, for instant, a web page. It may because I have only 16 meg VRAM and not the advance GPU card... Anyway, the very smooth scrolling show my PowerBook 667 is running at Quartz Extreme mode. Also, the dock bouncing icons doesn't slow down on screen control.

By the way, anyone tried to install it on an iPod? It fails to start up... I don't know what if it is my PowerBook or OS X 10.2 or iPod problem.


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## wdw_ (May 10, 2002)

Wait a minute. Do you have to turn on Quartz extreme or is it automaticly turned on?


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## ddma (May 10, 2002)

I think it is automactically turned on. Since I don't see any related option in System Preferences.


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## Nummi_G4 (May 10, 2002)

Are people with unsupported graphics cards going to feel and see any speed improvements ????


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## ~~NeYo~~ (May 10, 2002)

Does anyone have any links to streamable Video, Like the one for InkWell, and iChat? I Found it Really Fanacinating, ESPECIALLY from an XP user's POV! 

<< I noticed FAR TOO Much Damned Eye Candy, which Annoys me, when i look @ the amound thats "non existent" in XP!  

...it makes me want a Mac, a Whole lot more!  

So, Does anyone have, any other Streamable Videos?! i was Engrossed for those 9 mins!  

NeYo


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## tismey (May 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Nummi_G4 _
> *Are people with unsupported graphics cards going to feel and see any speed improvements ???? *



According to the register then definitely. There's a good little round-up of what developers using the version they were given think, and in there they comment that it's a lot faster. Considering (from what I can glean) that most of the currently available Mac product line has graphics cards that don't support Quartz Extreme, this has to be to do wit the code (multithreaded finder and stuff I guess).

I can't help thinking that people are concentrating on the Quartz Extreme thing a little too much. Yeah, it sounds great, but if your machine isn't supported there is no way I can see that 10.2, or whichever version number it turns out to be, won't be faster than the current system. Every 0.0.1 increment has been slightly faster than the previous one.


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## roger (May 10, 2002)

> *nVidia: GeForce2MX, GeForce3, GeForce4 Ti, GeForce4 or GeForce4MX. ATI: any AGP Radeon card. 32MB VRAM recommended for optimum performance.



I read this as any card that supports OpenGL will allow some of the graphics workload to be loaded onto it. Apple are saying that there is enough work so that the above cards will cope with it, but lesser cards may not. This means that whilst lesser cards may give increased speed, they may not provide the full accelaration. 'Supported' usually means that those cards are the ones that have been extensively tested against and any specific issues regarding those cards will be actively resolved.

R.


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## AJaX (May 10, 2002)

Can someone let me know all the options you have in iChat?? is there the following:

Logging
Tabbed Window mode like Adium

That's the only two things it needs if it does not have them already


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## WoLF (May 10, 2002)

Guys, keep in mind this is still a beta!!

ajax: no, none of those options.

I saw significant speed improvements with my computer, which is a 500mhz iMac.

I moved back to 10.1.4 because some of my apps that I use most often wont work in 10.2.
The only reason I boot into 10.2 is to use iChat.


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## wdw_ (May 10, 2002)

Is Sherlock 3 included with the Jaguar seed? If it is, I can't find it.


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## thisbechuck (May 10, 2002)

anyone tried running iChat on X.1 yet? If it doesn't work, what is keeping it from doing so?


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## wdw_ (May 10, 2002)

When I tried iChat in X.I, it just closed on the first bounce.


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## dricci (May 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by wdw_ _
> *When I tried iChat in X.I, it just closed on the first bounce. *



Hmph, that answers my question then. I'm guessing it has something to do with how iChat is integrated in 10.2 with the address book and mail and such. Without that stuff to latch on to, it probably just dies.

How big is the iChat.app, anyways? I'm guessing it'd be bigger than AIM because of the chat bubble stuff.

Darn Carracho Server, I could be answering my own questions if it wouldn't have shut down


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## wdw_ (May 10, 2002)

iChat is 1.1 Mb. Pretty small.


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## ~~NeYo~~ (May 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by BlingBling 3k12 _
> *
> 
> you're on! (and i'll probably lose... you know the in's and out's of XP probably)
> ...



oops, i missed this earlier! ... hehe! Cool, well, as you know, i've replied earlier, it looks like us PC Users should UNITE! lol

Speak to ya soon man! 

Peace

NeYo


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## wdw_ (May 10, 2002)

A cool feature of iChat is that it tells you when the person on the other end is typing. You can tell the other person is typing because a bubble with "..." apears. I heard about this on the cnet keynote video, but I didn't understand it until I tried it. It's pretty nice.


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## wdw_ (May 10, 2002)

I just noticed that Apple added a negetive.positive button to the calculator. It's gone from 2.6 to 2.9.1.


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## ulrik (May 11, 2002)

In the keynote, they said something about system wide thumbnail supports. What exactly does this mean?

What I - for example - find a KICK ASS feature in the KDE (a very good Linux window manager) is that ASCII files (textfiles etc.) and even Rich text files are kinda previewed in the icon!

The icon - depending what kind of text it is (Logfile, plain text, rich text) is most often some kind of papersheet, but with the first lines of content on that file written into it! I find this VERY usefull, and hope this is what they mean with systemwide thumbnail support...

anybody care to enlighten me if this is supported?


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## ddma (May 11, 2002)

I don't see any support about system wide thumbnail in any Finder/System options yet, and no image preview (unless the image has its own big icons).


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## macfreak88 (May 11, 2002)

I saw the new iChat and all the other new and cool iapps in 10.2 but does iChat have fileftransfer? i Allways wanted that in a chat program because the aim has that enabled but i suxs and allways crashes...Another question...where did you guys get the beta of 10.2 from? I HAVE TO GET ONE!!! ...


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## StarScream (May 12, 2002)

I have Jaguar too And i have found a new icon when you eject the cd..
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Overal Performance is Fantastic . I have A G4 400 2xAGP


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## aishafenton (May 12, 2002)

In 10.2 are there any changes to the save/open dialog boxes??

It's one of those things that people complain about in OS X - probably with good reason, it would be nice if they were more consistent with the finder.


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## Izzy (May 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by macfreak88 _
> *I saw the new iChat and all the other new and cool iapps in 10.2 but does iChat have fileftransfer? i Allways wanted that in a chat program because the aim has that enabled but i suxs and allways crashes...Another question...where did you guys get the beta of 10.2 from? I HAVE TO GET ONE!!! ... *



It most certainly does have file transfer...and it's as easy as drag and drop 

Someone here linked to the news.com videos that show the program in action using file transfer

Here's the link again:
http://news.com.com/2014-1089-0.html

It's under the "jobs dips into inkwell for OS X" video

And as for how people have 10.2 already...some were at the conference and others have used more nefarious means


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## Paragon (May 12, 2002)

Here is a link where you can see some of the new features of Jaguar. It also has some small videos where you can see the springloaded folders in action.

http://www.railheaddesign.com/pages/various/jaguar/jag01.html

Some of the screenshots you might have seen before, but not me.


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## Nummi_G4 (May 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by aishafenton _
> *In 10.2 are there any changes to the save/open dialog boxes??
> 
> It's one of those things that people complain about in OS X - probably with good reason, it would be nice if they were more consistent with the finder. *



 yes... that would be nice.  The open/save dialog boxes need to support the keyboard.  nothing worse than scrolling down to find a file in list view.


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## metfoo (May 12, 2002)

my friend has a iBook graphite SE, and in 10.1 he has had that eject icon in the center of the screen. Its really wierd. We tried like crazy one day to find out how to get it to do it on my icebook, but never had any luck. I will grab a screen shot of it and post it when i see him.


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## ddma (May 12, 2002)

Your friend should have installed OS 10.1.5 (beta) on his iBook SE. 10.1.5 has the same on screen ejecting display as Jaguar.


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## Bluefusion (May 12, 2002)

My printer isn't supported, or I'd use Jag exclusively. On an LCD iMac (supported video card) window resizing is INSTANTANEOUS, faster than WinXP, and even resizing in OmniWeb is close to realtime. The main advantage with Jag is the MULTITHREADING. This is the greatest thing to happen to the Mac in a long time... you open five programs and they all just load quickly and efficiently without any slowdown. Also, the multithreading allows you to immediately start using the machine after it's done starting up... no more waiting for login items, etc.

No one's mentioned the new screen saver...  Greatest thing ever, IMO.

I REALLY like iChat. It doesn't have logs, but... it's a great app. When you have your chat windows closed, a notification bubble pops up in the top right corner of the screen with the FULL TEXT of the message someone sent you--that hasn't been done on ANY chat app before!


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## fryke (May 12, 2002)

now that you've MENTIONED the new screen saver, could you also give some INFO about it? 

Like that it makes not much sense to me...


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## Bluefusion (May 12, 2002)

The new screensaver, quite simply, has to be seen to be believed. Imagine a much more subtle iTunes visualizer 

The good news is, it is available for all: http://www.versiontracker.com/moreinfo.fcgi?id=11393&db=mac 

Enjoy!

The key to it is to turn "Number of Streams" and "Speed" up on at least two of your Flurries to make it look really awesome


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## lethe (May 12, 2002)

Is the jaguar installer that apple gave out at WWDC a full installer, or an update disk?


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## wdw_ (May 12, 2002)

It's both. It had a lot of options on how to install it.


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## wdw_ (May 12, 2002)

I just figured out what's different with apple-tab. It work differently. When you push it, it goes to the lat application you were on instead of to the right. That is way too windowish.


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## celeborn (May 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by wdw_ _
> *I just figured out what's different with apple-tab. It work differently. When you push it, it goes to the lat application you were on instead of to the right. That is way too windowish. *



Ah, windowish or not, I find this very useful. It can be frustrating going through a long list of open applications every time you simply want to swap between the two apps you're currently working with.
Windows, on the other hand, can be pretty frustrating because if you have 10 browser windows open it will show all of them separately when alt-tabbing. I hear XP has some improvement regarding grouping together windows of of the same app, but haven't had the chance to see it for myself.


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## simX (May 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by tismey _
> *
> 
> According to the register then definitely. There's a good little round-up of what developers using the version they were given think, and in there they comment that it's a lot faster. Considering (from what I can glean) that most of the currently available Mac product line has graphics cards that don't support Quartz Extreme, this has to be to do wit the code (multithreaded finder and stuff I guess).*



That last statement is TOTALLY untrue.  All PowerMacs come standard with graphics cards with 64 MB VRAM, and all other Mac products, with the exception of the iBook, come with graphics cards that have 32 MB VRAM.  All iMacs and eMacs have nVidia GeForce 2 MX cards with 32 MB VRAM.  Powerbooks now have 32 MB VRAM Radeon Mobility 7500 cards.  PowerMacs come with either Radeon 7500s or GeForce 4MX cards, both of which have 64 MB VRAM.

The iBook is the only Apple product that is sorely lacking in the graphics subsystem, as well as the processor (not G4).  Expect the iBook to have a two-tiered graphics upgrade like the Powerbook, and it will probably get a G4 processor soon, too.


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## metfoo (May 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ddma _
> *Your friend should have installed OS 10.1.5 (beta) on his iBook SE. 10.1.5 has the same on screen ejecting display as Jaguar. *



He has 10.1.4 Its been like that since 10.1. A screen will be posted later today


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## ddma (May 13, 2002)

Oh really? I never saw that Eject screen until I have upgraded to 10.1.5/Jaguar. But I heard that this function was including in Finder.app package in 10.1.4 as well.


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## tismey (May 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by simX _
> *
> That last statement is TOTALLY untrue.  All PowerMacs come standard with graphics cards with 64 MB VRAM, and all other Mac products, with the exception of the iBook, come with graphics cards that have 32 MB VRAM.  All iMacs and eMacs have nVidia GeForce 2 MX cards with 32 MB VRAM.  Powerbooks now have 32 MB VRAM Radeon Mobility 7500 cards.  PowerMacs come with either Radeon 7500s or GeForce 4MX cards, both of which have 64 MB VRAM.
> *



OK, didn't really put my point across very clearly, or indeed accurately. I shouldn't have said 'currently available'. What i was sort of trying to say was that most of the machines currently out there, being used by people don't support it - just look at the number of people on the forums bitching that they won't get the Quartz Extreme benefits.

My point really was that the chances that the people reporting to the Reg were ALL experiencing speed improvements due to Quartz Extreme is unlikely. Whatever.


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## Bluefusion (May 13, 2002)

Just to let everyone know, I did plug my Jaguar external HD (7200 rpm, just so ya know) into my iceBook (combo drive 500) with 128 MB of RAM, which can barely run X as it is... and even though it definitely didn't get Quartz Extreme, it was a LOT faster than it had been.

Maybe this will put some people's fears to rest. Remember, it's not the Quartz Extreme that's going to do most of the speedup (all it does on my LCD iMac is make scrolling and window resizing a lot faster... and it seems to be slower (at least in this beta) at full-screen OpenGL acceleration (such as the OpenGL-based "flurry" screen saver) than 10.1.3...), the main speedup you'll find in Jaguar is the multithreading, which is a FAR bigger deal than accelerated graphics, IMO. Multithreading allows a lot to happen at once without slowing it down, and believe me, it does this on ANY machine. That helps a LOT.

We'll have to wait and see what happens when Jaguar is fully released (ARRRGH i wish it supported my printer so badly; i'd use it every day!!!!) because even as it is, the speed increase is HUGE on any machine; just ones with better graphics cards have a bit better display of on-screen elements.


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## Krevinek (May 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Bluefusion _
> *the main speedup you'll find in Jaguar is the multithreading, which is a FAR bigger deal than accelerated graphics, IMO. Multithreading allows a lot to happen at once without slowing it down, and believe me, it does this on ANY machine. That helps a LOT.*



*HACK* *COUGH*  

I hate to burst your bubble, but MacOS has had multithreading since 7.5.3 (even if it was a hack in 9.x and earlier to get some of the pre-emptive threading). MacOS X has proper threading support for this sort of thing.

Now HERE is the kicker. Apple didn't get around to multithreading the Finder in OS X until Jaguar. Because of that, the Finder will experience a good boost in response time. The other boosts like login time and boot time, and so on are just side effects from other optimizations Apple has made.

Trust me on this one, I have written a few multithreaded apps for MacOS X and 9 for various small personal projects. The downside to multithreading is that if you spawn too many threads as part of your program, you can make things worse by having too much time being spent switching between your threads.


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## Bluefusion (May 13, 2002)

Nuh-uh. The Jaguar multithreading is VERY different than what has been around in OS 9. Believe me. I can open six programs at the same time (drag-select and double-click) and they all take the same amount of time to launch as they did if I opened them individually, now. That has NEVER been the case with any OS I've used. Also, toggling between open apps is MUCH faster than OS 9, and quite a bit faster than 10.1. In addition, things like Mail checking for new email can happen at the same time as I launch a program; no slowdowns. I can type in a big, bloated word processor (Word) and run iTunes visuals in the background; no slowdown whatsoever, even though doing the exact same thing under 10.1.4 caused it to slow both the visuals and the menu responsivenesss of Word down.

I don't claim to know WHAT they did with their multithreading, but a cursory glance will show you that it's been GREATLY improved.

Oh, btw, did I tell you that the startup progress bar loads on my system in 4.3 seconds? Getting from the grey screen to the blue is the same amount of time, but the actual system startup is nearly as fast as waking up from sleep. Login is also fast, with the addition of not having to sit around waiting for login items to load (a really annoying part of 10.1.4: because I have lots of third-party things; stickybrain, palm desktop, logitech drivers, wacom drivers, etc., I have to sit around after the desktop appears, waiting for everything to finish loading. If I don't, programs will take 20-40 bounces to open. Once the wait time is over, the system behaves normally. But it's REALLY annoying). Now, with 10.2, that wait time is GONE. Completely. And I'm still using all those peripherals, and they're still working fine.

I'm not a programmer, so I can't explain what they did. But they did SOMETHING really big, and it's not Quartz Extreme, because it works on my Combo Drive icebook (with a lowly 128 MB of RAM)...


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## Krevinek (May 13, 2002)

Heh, well... I am a programmer and I know exactly what they did. The model of threading OS X uses hasn't changed since 10.0 (they may have slimmed some of the overhead in the Mach kernel, but that is about it).

Their USE of threading in general though has greatly improved, and the fact that they now USE threading at all in the Finder is a bonus. You also should have noticed I said that the Classic model for threading was a hack. They allowed pre-emptive threading in Classic, but it was at interrupt time where you couldn't allocate memory or do many system calls.

Just because Apple has optimized some places that need proper optimizing doesn't mean the whole model of threading has changed again. They just use it better once the system is up. Booting and the initial startup (before the desktop/login appears) isn't threaded, since certain modules require other modules to load first. If Apple managed to thread this process, good for them. The login wait from 10.1.x is likely due from some overhead still sitting around from app bindings and launching. They most likely found a way around this. I have the exact same problem myself in 10.1, and I can tell you this: a big part of it is due to disk access blocking threads improperly.

I was really just trying to point out that the cause of the boost isn't from 'new multithreading' in the OS, but rather smarter threading and overall code optimization in the individual processes.

Although, this news is great to hear since it might make my 8600/300 a bit more bearable with 10 considering I have no video acceleration at all, not even 2D blitting. And with 10.2's revamped graphics layer, my work so far in getting X to play nice with my Voodoo cards may just force me to start over again.


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## hazmat (May 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by wdw_ _
> *I just figured out what's different with apple-tab. It work differently. When you push it, it goes to the lat application you were on instead of to the right. That is way too windowish. *



No, that's way too good.  There are some things that Windows does much better than Mac OS, and alt-tabbing is one of them.  How does that not make more sense than how OS X currently does it?


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## hazmat (May 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by celeborn _
> *
> 
> Ah, windowish or not, I find this very useful. It can be frustrating going through a long list of open applications every time you simply want to swap between the two apps you're currently working with.
> Windows, on the other hand, can be pretty frustrating because if you have 10 browser windows open it will show all of them separately when alt-tabbing. I hear XP has some improvement regarding grouping together windows of of the same app, but haven't had the chance to see it for myself. *



I haven't gotten to play much with XP, but if my observations are correct, I didn't like how it did the grouping.  Too conditional.  I hope there is a way that I didn't see to always make it do it.  It seemed to only group once either the task bar filled up, or more than a certain amount of windows of the same app was open.  So if you closed one IE window, for example, all of a sudden they aren't grouped anymore.  Dumb, IMO.


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## spitty27 (May 15, 2002)

ur pix dont work :-( please send them to me at spitty27@mac.com


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## cybergoober (May 16, 2002)

Can one of you guys using Jaguar please tell what versions of LDAP and Kerberos it is using? 
TIA


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## Tom Head (May 16, 2002)

The main thing I'm looking for in 10.2 is improvements to the Mail.app, as (not counting AppleWorks) it's where I spend 95% of my computer time.  Other than the integrated address book, are there any striking new features there in the (legal) beta...?

I think the new Address Book feature has the potential to really be something good if it's (a) fast and (b) versatile, and by all accounts it seems to be both.  I've never used an address book regularly before (I just memorize the email addresses), so this will be a new experience for me, and I suspect I'm not the only person who falls in this category.

I'm also glad they're isolating the Disk Search feature, as it usually takes longer on my end to load up Sherlock than it does to do the actual search.    

The spring-loaded folders will also be a biggie--I know one guy who's been using Macs for 20 years and still on OS 9 largely because of (a) speed issues and (b) the spring-loaded folders issue.  Jaguar will probably do the trick on both counts.  

September, eh?  I can hardly wait.  

What are the odds that it'll have broader scanner and digicam support?  (I've got a Microtek color flatbed and an Aiptek Trio VGA pencam; the former only works in Classic, the latter needs a shareware utility and only grabs images on reboot.)


Cheers,

TH


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## hazmat (May 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Tom Head _
> *I think the new Address Book feature has the potential to really be something good if it's (a) fast and (b) versatile, and by all accounts it seems to be both.  I've never used an address book regularly before (I just memorize the email addresses), so this will be a new experience for me, and I suspect I'm not the only person who falls in this category.
> *



Yeah, actually, I would like to see more on the address book.  It would be nice to have something to interact between that and my Motorola V60c cell phone.  I believe that you can use the same software for syncing with Palms and such.  TrueSync I think it's called.


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## Bluefusion (May 16, 2002)

hazmat: If your cell phone has Bluetooth, the Rendezvous technology synchronizes your address book to it. Rendezvous is broken in Jaguar Dev Prev, however, and I don't have a Bluetooth cell phone to test it out with, either 

Tom Head: the mail app is significantly faster this time around, and has a ton of small little improvements that make it better, but overall, yes, expect to be very excited with the final product... mail.app has evolved!


Address Book is EXTREMELY fast and works very well. It is very well thought-out and works with iChat in an incredibly seamless way  the pictures feature really is nice... I never thought I'd use it but iChat lets you scale and move the pictures around before you commit to a final image, and the image gets updated in the address book (just tell iChat to use an address card for one of your buddies, and all sorts of amazing things happen: Mail.app tells you when that buddy is online, lets you send an IM FROM Mail, and iChat's photo prefs for that buddy get saved into the address book. In addition, there is an "email" button in the iChat window--click it and Mail opens up with the correct address filled in. The integration is amazing!

It's a great time to be a mac user 
OS X 10.1 brought much-needed speed enhancements. Jaguar brings Quartz Extreme, much better multithreading, and a TON (and I mean a TON) of usability enhancements. I find the "screen flash instead of alert sounds" to be a really nice feature--basically, any time you'd hear an alert sound normally, you can elect to have the screen whiteout for about a quarter of a second. I like it because a) it looks better than the manubar flash that OS 9 had, and b) I hate having an alert sound when I'm listening to music (or in the middle of the night, when I have headphones on), so for me, this is a very attractive alternative. It's very sleek, not "cartoony" at all.

Another thing I've found is that the Aqua globe, aka the new Beachball of Death (which appears much less frequently) will appear if you move the mouse over an inactive that has something busy in it (example: if I move the mouse over Mail when it is in the background, and it's checking mail, the blue globe comes up to let me know that Mail is doing something). When you move the mouse off the window, it resumes the normal mouse cursor look. BTW, you can click to the "busy" window, and it will work just fine. The Globe is just there to let you know that it IS doing something. I personally think that's a GREAT step forward in terms of really seeing what's going on in your system....  I LOVE JAGUAR!!!!!


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## MacLegacy (May 16, 2002)

Kinda newbish question but what exactly is multithreading?


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## ddma (May 16, 2002)

Multithreading is the ability of a program or an operating system process to manage its use by more than one user at a time and to even manage multiple requests by the same user without having to have multiple copies of the programming running in the computer. Each user request for a program or system service (and here a user can also be another program) is kept track of as a thread with a separate identity. As programs work on behalf of the initial request for that thread and are interrupted by other requests, the status of work on behalf of that thread is kept track of until the work is completed.


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## hazmat (May 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by MacLegacy _
> *Kinda newbish question but what exactly is multithreading?  *



You got a good explanation of it, but the simply way I usually describe it as is basically multitasking within an application.


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## nkuvu (May 16, 2002)

Or, explained in crayon (no offense, but I had a hard time understanding ddma, and I know what multithreading is  ):

A program has certain things it wants to do to finish.  Most simple programs only have one real thing to do at once, but some programs could split the work up and get it done faster.  

A semi-real world analogy:
If you are searching for something in a large store, you'd find it a lot faster if there were multiple copies of yourself, all assigned to search through one section of the store.  The best way would be to have the copies of yourself be able to talk to each other immediately, so you could stop the search as soon as you found what you're looking for.  But even if you couldn't communicate, each copy of yourself would only have to look in a small section of the store.  So it'd be guaranteed to be faster.  Now to tie that in to multi-threading, consider each copy of yourself to be a "thread" in a program, each assigned some particular task.

If the world (the operating system in computers) is set up so you can duplicate yourself, then you can make things go faster and usually in a more stable manner.

Multi-threading is beneficial when the operating system can deal with it, and the program is designed to take advantage of it.  Another advantage is that the threads are running separately, so if one crashes it doesn't take down the whole system.

Does this make any sense at all, or am I confusing the issue more?


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## ddma (May 16, 2002)

Sorry, hazmat and nkuvu. It is easy to confuse multitasking with multithreading, a somewhat different idea. 

In a computer operating system, multitasking is allowing a user to perform more than one computer task (such as the operation of an application program) at a time. The operating system is able to keep track of where you are in these tasks and go from one to the other without losing information.

Being able to do multitasking doesn't mean that an unlimited number of tasks can be juggled at the same time. Each task consumes system storage and other resources. As more tasks are started, the system may need to slow down or begin to run out of shared storage.

For multithreading, please refer to my previous post.

Simplify some main point, multithreading shares the same code in different program. That means 2 different programs don't require to run their code separately but multitasking do.


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## Krevinek (May 17, 2002)

Correction, multitasking is the use separate programs/processes while sharing the processor time. Multithreading is the use of separate bits of code within a single program/process while sharing the program's processor time.

The problem with multithreading is that an app has to be specially written to use multiple threads (simple apps have a single thread, such as a shell). The benefits of threading is not really speed, but rather responsiveness. For example, an app can spin off their networking code into a thread, and then keep their main thread free to handle UI events, sending minor messages for the other thread to handle later. This way your network code can be rather unoptimized, and you can still be VERY responsive to events coming in.

The Finder before MacOS 8 was not multithreaded, the result being that you could only do one task at a time within it, despite multitasking being available. MacOS 8 introduced a multithreaded Finder that was much more responsive, despite the bloat 8's Finder had. Before 10.2, the same thing with X's Finder. One thread handling all tasks, so it didn't respond while copying files/etc.

Usually in the case of the Finder, it will spin off a thread to handle each task. File copying threads, window UI threads, and drive mounting threads. By doing this, any thread that is waiting for I/O and such will not prevent the Finder from being responsive elsewhere to the user.

Another example is Carracho, which spins off a thread for EVERY CONNECTION the client and server make. This is an inefficient use of threads, since you can easily load down a system with too many threads running a server. Best to split it into networking/file transfers/UI/etc.

Any clearer now?


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## ddma (May 17, 2002)

Oh yeah. Thanks. I got some misundaztook too.


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## Krevinek (May 17, 2002)

No problem... it is just that I program, and the post of 'Apple finally gave 10.2 multithreading' got to me a little...

Afterall, multithreading has been around since 7.5.3 as a hack, and since 10.0 as built-in support. The only change to multithreading between 10.1 and 10.2 is maybe a more efficient implementation. The speed boosts people are seeing in the Finder, Dock, etc are likely due to the smarter multithreading of Apple apps, or writing the apps to use multiple threads (hence no actual speed gain, just more responsiveness).


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## fryke (May 17, 2002)

To get the thread back on track: Can someone who's actively using a Jaguar build (6C35 or newer) share his/her knowledge about stability issues?

I remember the Puma builds before 5G27 to be kinda non-PowerBook friendly and generally unstable, for example. Things got better through 5G48 and the system was ready for productional systems at or around 5G59. (5G64 was released as 10.1.)


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## spitty27 (May 17, 2002)

What is the point of 10.1.5 if 10.2 will come out in September as you guys have said. My question is this: its almost the beginning of summer, and nearing September, and when is 10.1.5 coming out??!?!?! I think it should be released soon, because when 10.1.5 comes out right before 10.2, what is the point? why not release it now?


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## dac9779 (May 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by fryke _
> *To get the thread back on track: Can someone who's actively using a Jaguar build (6C35 or newer) share his/her knowledge about stability issues?
> 
> I remember the Puma builds before 5G27 to be kinda non-PowerBook friendly and generally unstable, for example. Things got better through 5G48 and the system was ready for productional systems at or around 5G59. (5G64 was released as 10.1.) *



I have it installed and I am using it daily as a mySQL server and apache server. The server is just serving a beta version of a website that will be going live by the end of the summer. It works great so far. I have yet to have it carsh on me. 

Its running on a B&W 350 with 128 MB RAM. boot times are REALLY fast. the overall speed blows 10.1.x away in my mind. I see the aqua ball every once in a while. usually with IE. 

The only complaint that I have with it is the fact that I couldnt get the CGI DBI module working. Apple needs to ship the OS with CGI PHP and mySQL installed and preconfigured, but thats my 2 cents.

i cant wait till it goes gold.


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## IceDogg25 (May 18, 2002)

Since when did Mac OS 10.2 come out?  I thought it was supposed to be released late this summer? PLEASE REPLY


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## lethe (May 18, 2002)

jaguar has not come out for customers.  there was a preview release to developers a while back,


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## fryke (May 18, 2002)

I didn't mean stability as a server. I meant in a productive environment with Photoshop 7, Illustrator, InDesign and the like. Using it for daily browsing & e-mail, putting the powerbook to sleep and waking it up (letting it sleep worked fine in 5G27, only the *wakeup* part was a failure). 

someone using this on his tibook as the primary os?

gosh, i'd want to try, guess i'll grab a copy when they reach something like 6C50 or 6D20, as i think there will be many, many builds rolling out this summer. 

remember last year's summer? sun, fun, puma builds...?


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## ddma (May 18, 2002)

Ha-ha, I tried at least 4 or 5 builds of 10.1 last summer...


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