# .mac backup?



## J5 (Aug 30, 2002)

Hey all -
got an email last night promoting the new backup feature of .mac. I have no interest at all in .mac, but there was something in there that really rubbed me the wrong way. 



> As a trial member, you can use Backup to save files to iDisk. With a full .Mac membership, you'll also be able to back up files to CDs or DVDs  perfect for storing lots of large files, like your iPhoto library.



Ummm... ok... wtf? So wait... is Apple going to hook up 10 million cd burners on their servers for me(us), and then everytime I "backup" they will mail the cd's to us? 

Of course not. This is by far the lamest thing I've heard from Apple (lately). I spend +$2000 on a mac with a cdr/dvdr and I have to pay a monthly fee to burn cd's?(I know, just burn like I have been) The big deal with backup as far as I can see is that it simply checks modification dates, and automatically backs up what has changed. Seems a trivial app to write, though I've just gotten into cocoa development. If anyone is interested in helping out, I think we could get our own open-source version of something like this? 

Another rant - I buy the mac, I pay X a month, I buy the blank media, I sit and wait for it to burn, I put it in it's case and label it... What exactly would I be paying the monthly fee for at that point? I'm not about to start renting software. That's just a load of bs... errr ms.

J5

If anyone is interested and has some cocoa/mac programming experience, I'd be all for working up some open-source apps to compete with .whack. Ie - we could sit here and whine, or we could simply get off our arses and do something about it. Fighting Apple to get this stuff for free isn't going to happen, but they gave us all the dev tools we need already. So what's stopping us outside of lack of motivation?


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## OmegaMan (Aug 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by J5 _
> *Hey all -
> got an email last night promoting the new backup feature of .mac. I have no interest at all in .mac, but there was something in there that really rubbed me the wrong way. *



*shrugs his shoulders*  Egh....no big deal about .mcProfit for me....just another email account to check.   

I can't use the backup feature, until I upgrade to X.2.....but with a superdrive, I can do it locally, without incurring a charge, as my dsl provider has put bandwidth caps on.....grrr!   

It's nice.....but no biggie for me.....I'll just humbly use the account....hehe


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## J5 (Aug 30, 2002)

Not quite sure what you mean -



> *shrugs his shoulders* Egh....no big deal about .mcProfit for me....just another email account to check.



That's exactly how I see it, and it's an email account I can do without. My point was that backup sounds like a simple piece of software to write. It just doesn't seem worth $99 a year to me.

The backup software though to me seems like a good piece of software to have, yet after how many years of payment does it become not worth it?

So as I see it, we (maybe just me?) have 3 options:

1) whine about it - not doing anybody any good

2) Suck it up, and pay the fees.  - in the words of G. Bush the first - "not gonna do it.."

3) Suck it up, and write software on our own that does the same thing, and give it away for free. 

I'm going with number 3! I want to learn Cocoa anyway. I've been playing with it a bit, but haven't thought of a piece of software I'd want to write to hone my skills. Seems like this would be a fun and useful app to get started on. 

J5


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## plastic (Aug 30, 2002)

I am wondering what Apple is really up to with all these weird offerings... are they that strapped for cash?

The whole email quoted does not make sense at all... backup? Huh?


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## J5 (Aug 30, 2002)

Hey Plastic - 
Here's a link for ya'

http://www.mac.com/1/iTour/tour_backup.html

And good point - are they that strapped for cash!? It's so weird. Everytime they release something cool (jaguar, and all it's goodness) - I get all happy. Then there is always something that turns me right around. Not that I'm about to "switch" mind you, but none the less... it's the epitomy of a "love/hate" relationship! 

Check out the link. .whack indeed.

J5


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## plastic (Aug 30, 2002)

I tried reading the ad right side up, on my side, tilted my head to both sides, while lying down, and STILL, I don't see the reason why I must part with THAT MUCH money to get that account. 

Drag and drop and click and burn... Apple style. What is so hard about that? I have backed up almost every small file (project files) onto CD blanks and larger files onto Firewire HDD/ DVD-R. Why would I spend $99/year for this?

Maybe I am slow, but can someone explain this service to me like a four year old? I don't see the logic in this altogether.

Maybe Apple has a reason but I sure don't see it now.


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## Snowball (Aug 30, 2002)

It's a very good idea to make a simple, free Backup utility as a competitor to Apple's Backup. 
Why? Because 1, a backup program is the most basic of utilities every OS should include, and 2, I, along with many other Mac users, am especially annoyed by Apple's recent changes in business policy*: writing a free backup program that is a viable replacement to their $99 version tells Apple that we won't follow their business plan if it's not in our best interest. People simply will not pay for what they can get elsewhere for free, even if it comes from Apple. I have a strong feeling that most Mac users' brand loyalty is simply not strong enough to resist price differences such as one of .Macs magnitude, and this is where a lot of the anger over .Mac stems from. People don't want to move away from Apple, but .Mac is a real slap in the face from our friendly old Apple of pre-July 17th.
But I digress...

A utility like this would be incentive for Apple to make .Mac actually worth $99 by adding more features or substantially improving the old ones. Apple is typically the leader in innovation, but things like their lack of OS-installed backup utility truly are a sore spot. Windows 95 and every version after came with some version of a free, MS supported, backup program, (maybe it started with Win3.1, I'm not sure) as a system accessory. It's inexcusable that Apple markets OS X as such an advanced OS but doesn't include such a simple feature that facilitates such an important task. (I'm not much of a UNIX person but I suspect there is some kind of CLI way of backing up...so maybe Apple does indirectly include one, but of course it is not accessible to most OS X users, because they don't know how to CLI their way around) Frankly speaking, their $99 version is too little, too late when looking at the competition, which is exactly what Switchers are doing.

Anyway, I've rambled on for long enough...
If you (J5) did something like this, I would be happy to help out as long as a replacement was freeware (or opensourced, whatever). The least we could do is give a GUI to the UNIX backup program (if one exists that is), hopefully however we could do all that Apple's Backup does and more - Apple's version is very simple so it wouldn't be that difficult to do. Heck, we could even backup to an iDisk, it's not a propietary system!

*One example of Apple's new moves: You need an active internet connection just to run Backup, even though you may just want to burn a CD on the go in a laptop  ! that is particulary offensive IMHO, very much like MS...


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## J5 (Aug 30, 2002)

Plastic - 
I couldn't explain it to myself, let alone a 4yr. old. It literally makes no sense at all. At first, I was thinking:

"Oh.. cool. I'm gonna back up my 30gig drive tonight to my idisk...so that I can reformat and do a clean install without using up a ton of cd's..." 

That's what drove me to the site, to see if there was a limit to how much space I had. Of course there was. But even if I had a full membership, 200mb isn't going to cut it for backup purposes. I've got at least 5gigs of files I'd have to backup, and that doesn't include software. 

Yep.. you said it. drag.drop. burn. That's it. The only thing I can see that Apple is giving you for your annual fee is a nice piece of software to optimize your backups. Meaning it keeps a record of what you backed up last time. Then, next time you backup, it compares each file's modification date to the list of previously backed up files, and backs up only the stuff that has changed. Great idea! But not at that price. Maybe if it was an addon for like $200 or something...maybe. I don't know if I'd pay that still, but if Apple's hardup for cash, all they gotta do is ask! Don't try to take advantage of people who don't know any better! Release a 1.25ghz dp g4 with a useable amount of ram(at least 512mb!, on ONE chip) for under $2000. I'll buy 2! That's equal to 40 years of .mac membership. Of course, minus their costs, it's not quite so much, but it's more money (100% more) than they'll see from me by way of .mac services. 


Again - are there any mac developers here who want to help a newbie learn a bit, and at the same time produce some cool mac free-wares? You can find me for a limited time at:
jrobinso@mac.com 
or a more permanent location:
jrobinso@nycap.rr.com

J5


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## J5 (Aug 30, 2002)

Snowball - 
I hadn't seen your post before my last one. Drop me an email and we can get started. It will definitely be open-source and free to all. That's the whole point, that and the points you mention about showing Apple a little "tough love".

J5


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## plastic (Aug 30, 2002)

200MB is awfully small today in the computing world. After converting my CD collection into mp3 in iTunes, that have already taken up 18GB on my HDD. What can 200MB do? Online floppy making services? OK, now I am trying to be a cheey bastid here...


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## J5 (Aug 30, 2002)

Hehe. Yeah.. but you gotta provide the floppies!

J5


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## edX (Aug 30, 2002)

hint - we have a whole forum for programming here. it's where the programmers hang out. you might try posting your request for help there.


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## Snowball (Aug 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by reichmac
> 
> **Ed's note - i'm sure you all would like to read the deleted post but i was asked by another site member to remove the offensive material. since the user's new nick contained offensive language, along with most of the post, i thought best to delete it. i can only tell you that it was a series of not so creative name calling towards me for attempting to point out that we have a programming forum to help with this kind of problem. ip comparison has confirmed that this was reichman who was just banned for posting 'troubleshooting advice' to use the unix command to wipe the drive as a way to clean up the volume structures. **
> 
> _




You know what? It's these kind of posts that really get me riled up - they serve absolutely no constructive purpose. I bet the person who wrote this (probably azosx or pezagent getting his "revenge") is laughing it up right now, thinking he/she is on top of the world. Ed, I hope you see through this bastar*'s worthless posts and realize that you're doing a great job moderating these boards. I for one am thankful that someone of your caliber is here at all, much less modding the boards - for free, in your personal time! You are always there to keep conversations in line, keep macosx.com legal, help out others - like in this case - as I said, clearly a _great_ mod. You have an excellent sense of ethics I admire, and do a damn good job here.

It's really too bad unfortunate misfits such as BDF (i'll abbreviate your ridiculous name; another sign of your immaturity and stupidity) won't ever get anywhere in life with their stupidity and feel the need to take it out online.

What the hell is wrong with you BDF? Ed is a great mod and your worthless posts don't change that or convince anyone. You fail to make a valid argument against Ed. He spends a lot of his personal time moderating here and does a good job of it. I have a feeling you are pezagent or azosx, and it will be easy to find out by looking up your IP address, don't worry. We will find easily find out who you are, and can even find out your home address if we want. The "anonymity" of the net isn't as safe as you think you think. I suggest you go outside and focus your anger onto doing something real with your life.


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## aishafenton (Aug 30, 2002)

God this whole thread should be deleted.

$99 isn't worth the backup program??? Damn straight! but that's not really what your paying for is it. Sure, it's fair to argue that all the services you get in .mac aren't worth $99 dollars, but at least be truthful and don't pretend your paying $99 for a small utility that apple provides with .mac. $99 is a good price for everything they are providing, if you compare it with similar services by other companies.

Okay as for this CDR/DVDR backup feature. I have been reading the backup forums over at apple since it's been released. Being able to backup to multiply CDRs has been the most requested feature by a long shot. I don't see much value in it, but that's what the puntas asked for and that's what apple has delivered in backup x.2. So why not mention it in their news letter? 

And I'm not even going to comment on that post about Ed, except to say don't take any notice Ed.


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## edX (Aug 31, 2002)

gosh, and i just thought i was being helpful pointing out that we have a programming forum where the guys who are into this kind of thing tend to spend most of their time. I guess next time i feel helpful i should just keep it to myself.  

thanks for the support and kind words snowball and aisha. i will leave this post as a good example of what not to do. Admin will have the account removed soon - both of them most likely. changing your nickname here does not change your ip log. people should be aware of this.

carry on.


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## vanguard (Aug 31, 2002)

Ed,

I hope that guy doesn't have you second guessing yourself.  He's a nut.  My guess is that it's squidbite.  I'm glad you're on the board keeping things clean.  You could consider reporting him to his ISP.

Also, what's going on with his handle.  Wouldn't SDF be more insulting?  Clearly he needs a lesson or two in trash talking. 

Vanguard

PS  I'd like to see the thread cleaned up.  It's not that I'm afraid of what squidbite might think., It's that as a parent I wouldn't want an 8 year old to run across that kind of hatred and language.


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## edX (Aug 31, 2002)

point well taken vanguard. i have now deleted the post and edited it out with explanation in snowball's quote. i hope this is an acceptable way to have dealt with this for all who have been witness to it. 

and thanks for the additional support vanguard.


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## J5 (Aug 31, 2002)

Ed - I commend you as well, although I didn't get a chance to see the post in question, nor do I care. If people want to talk trash, it doesn't bother me at all. As for cleaning it up for the kids, that's understandable.



> Okay as for this CDR/DVDR backup feature. I have been reading the backup forums over at apple since it's been released. Being able to backup to multiply CDRs has been the most requested feature by a long shot. I don't see much value in it, but that's what the puntas asked for and that's what apple has delivered in backup x.2. So why not mention it in their news letter?


I have no problem with them mentioning it in their newsletter. They need to make money just as I need to make money. My point is that they are already making money. And at the same time, taking advantage of people who don't know their mac from a hole in the earth.

It really irks me though, to see a company that I've been loyal to since day one try to get a few more bucks off me for something like this. Backing up only what has to be, or what has changed since last time is a feature I remember being in Retrospect for a few versions now. I was stoked at first, and then appalled(sp?) to see it offered as a part of .mac vs an app included right next to itunes and mail.

I've tried to explain this, but it never comes out like I feel it:

Apple has sold countless computers to the professionals in the graphic design, audio production, multimedia and film industry for years. We all know what we trust, and that is Apple and their machines. It makes me sick to see them try to sell to consumers as an alternative to the pc, while dumbing down the interface to suit those needs, while it means slower production for the folks who've been loyal for so many years. Granted, the underlying os is more powerful than anything they've ever offered. 

I remember the day, as a graphic designer, when the first sherlock was introduced. I was on a 1X0mhz powermac, and I could no longer just press cmd-f, start typing, hit enter, and have it display results. Time is money in these businesses. I haven't been able to do that for years. I commend Apple for bringing this back in X.2.

Hmmm.. I'm not sure if this is on topic or not.. Ed - it seems like there is one or more people out to give you a hard time on here. I've only been active here for a few days, but look at my registration date. I've been here for a few years. I remember a time when mac users were all about hacking things together to get them to work. Oh boy... am I rambling or what! 

Ok. I still don't think it's come across as it feels, but that's my best shot so far. We will build our own backup software, and it will be as good or if not better than Apples offerings. As I've said before - Apple makes a machine I love and trust, but as far as business/marketing tactics, I'm left unimpressed.

J5


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## edX (Aug 31, 2002)

J5 - thanks. not to interrupt your topic anymore than already has been, but the people who want to give me a hard time are the ones who think this site should have no rules and just be a free for all with lots of warez trading, cussing, flaming, etc. (sounds like an online version of usenet  ) unfortunately keeping the site from becoming that is a moderator's job. and when we do our jobs, certain people feel like victims and we become targets. The shame is that serious users end up being subjected to it. 

somehow this person decided to attack me for suggesting to you that you post in the programmers forum for help with this project. discussing the pros and cons is good in this forum, but you'll find more programmers and knowledge for getting it going in the other forum.  that was all i was trying to say. i was trying to be concise and not 'ramble' like i normally do. 

it sounds like a worthy project to me. i am split on how i feel about .mac but will probably pay the $49 for the first year and see how that goes. the second year might end up being $10 for all we know at this point. but i also think that good alternatives are something the community should be working on. i know lots of sites like this one have been picking up the email slack. why shouldn't someone like you and/or others get the ball rolling on a backup alternative? i wish you luck and would love to see your program up on versiontracker someday.

ok, everybody go back to discussing backup apps and .mac. 

please.


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## aishafenton (Aug 31, 2002)

Yeah, I guess they should really include a backup program free as part of the OS.

But to tell the truth, I have the current Backup program and it aint all that good as a backup program   It's more there just to let you automatically put stuff on your iDisk. 

I've forked over $49 for the first year of .mac. But I think to win my $99 next year, they'll have to introduce some new stuff. 

Spymac is running a story that a coming .mac feature will be domain name to dynamic IP mapping.  

So if your like most people out there, your ISP dynamically assigns you an IP that changes everytime you login. Problem with this is that even though your computer is on the internet it's hard to access it externally, since you have to have rememered the IP that your ISP gave you that morning.

So the rumored feature would have something  like http://www.mac.com/myname/  always pointing to your computer. That URL would be kept in sync with what ever IP you had everytime you did an internet connect.

But this was from spymac and I don't believe anything they say


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## plastic (Aug 31, 2002)

I am a little sad (yes, sad) by all the things that happened in the forums today.

This may come out as a little stupid and kid-dish, but one of the things that make me wear "I LOVE MAC and NOT MACDONALD'S, STUPID" T-shirt with pride is that since the first day I got my 6100, is that the Mac community is something I am very proud of. From anywhere in the world, Mac users tend to unite and stick together like some minority race being bullied all the time.

Now, I see bans, mod challenging, etc in Mac forums... it just makes me sad. I am an admin in a gaming server (PC dominated) and I only see these things happening there and therefore I am used to these bashing and challenges, but seeing happening in a Mac forums, that is heart breaking...

Thanks Ed, for cleaning shop.

And I am glad to have met a few nice peeps who quickly correct me when I got my information wrong, update me on things or merely make me laugh... thanks everyone.

And allowing me to the Ronald MACintosh here... ha ha ha....

Back to the topic : I am disappointed with this lame attempt from Apple for the "backup services" but another part of me thinks that this service might be helpful for those newbies who have just switched to Apple. To me, back up is part of a library style system which I have developed and get used to. I don't think I want to spend more money on something that I don't really need.


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## aishafenton (Aug 31, 2002)

> This may come out as a little stupid and kid-dish, but one of the things that make me wear "I LOVE MAC and NOT MACDONALD'S, STUPID" T-shirt with pride is that since the first day I got my 6100, is that the Mac community is something I am very proud of



[wipes tear from eye] I'm with you brother!

I also don't know what's been going on here lately. When I started posting here, nothing like that ever happened. Well it'll all go back to normal soon enough, I guess we're just going through a bad spot of trolling.


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## J5 (Aug 31, 2002)

Plastic - 
I agree with you on your views of the mac community. Seems with all this "switching", we've gained some not-so-cool members, who are used to the type of forums you mention. Ah well. We still have a strong community.

The folks who cause trouble usually have a short attention span, meaning tomorrow they'll be on another board talking trash. Usually, once we stop honoring them with a response, they get bored and go away. 

And back on track - I've posted a link to this thread in the programming forum. Hopefully we'll be able to get this thing going! I'd also love to get a real open source team together, to produce other os x apps as well, so if anyone has ideas of something they'd like to see, let it be known!

Snowball - I'll email you if that's ok. I'm looking around sourceforge to see what it takes to start a project. I'll let you know. 

j5


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## Ghoser777 (Sep 1, 2002)

Let me just point out a couple things:

1. You're not paying $99 dollars for a backup program.  You're paying for bandwidth (which ain't cheap), you're paying for the new webmail interface, you're paying for anti-virus software, and you're paying for limited remote backup.

2. I want one service that provides you with a less than $99 way to backup 30 gigs of stuff (mp3s, pr0n, whatever) to a remote server?  That's right, it doesn't exists, because it would cost a ton of money.  Plus, it's not just every month you send 30 gigs of info (how long would that take to upload?), but everytime you access your iDisk account to view a backup and upload new data.  I need backup for important documents, and this program fits the bill perfectly.  It doesn't work for you, so use something else.  Heck, macs only work for 5% of the population anyway, right?  I guess that fits into their pattern of being a nieche market.

3. If you're unhappy with .Mac, don't buy it.  There's plenty of free email accounts and freeware/shareware/backup solutions.  It's not that hard, really.  It just seems this whole thread is bash .Mac thread.  If its too expensive, don't pay for it and let the market take care of it.

4. Let me re-emphaisze: bandwidth is not free.  In fact, as of late, bandwidth costs have been going up - its a decision of economics, as it was no longer possible to provide online storage for free to so many users.  If you don't agree, don't use it.

5. .Mac is a network service and backing up to local media doesn't really fit well into that paradigm, so that can partially explain why that isn't included in .Mac.

Just my thoughts.

I could help work on such a backup utility if you like, I have 2 years of Cocoa experience.

Matt Fahrenbacher


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## plastic (Sep 2, 2002)

I guess in some ways we were looking at the average cost for a student. This is why the basing starts because $99 for an average student from an average family seems like an awful lot of money, given the unemployment rate and family income has been reduced because of the slowing economy. In Asia, the situation is even much worse as compared to America. So I guess this is how the bashing began. Apple might want to look at special packages that is more affordable for students or modify their marketing strategy. That would help lots and win hearts back.


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## Ghoser777 (Sep 2, 2002)

I think that's part of the reason why the dropped the price to $49 (at least for this year).  People complained and the market took care of the situation.  I believe they will be integrating more technologies into it in the future, like iCal and whatever big thing is next.  No, think about this one: 

$99/year = $8.25 a month.  That less than most IPs charge you for a 56k modem connection per month.  Add in that there's plenty of people that will be connecting to the their .Mac account over broundband, and suddenly $8.25 a month isn't too bad.  Really, that's just one hour of work for me (I make $8.40 an hour), and at worst two hours of work at atny other college job.  If you really want a .Mac account, I really can't see it as being such an economic hinderance.

I'm a college student too, but this $8.25 a month is a lot less than what I'm paying off my iBook loan per month and what I'll have to be paying my student loans with.

Oh, and one more thing - if all you want is an email account, just find like 4 other people on campus that want one and buy one .Mac account.  I'm pretty sure it supports up to 5 email accounts.  $8.25/5 = $1.65 per month, or about the cost of a bag of chips and a 20 iz drink.

Matt Fahrenbacher


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## J5 (Sep 2, 2002)

To be honest.. I don't want a .mac account. I'm not a student either. My complaint is that something like "backup" should have been a part of Jaguar. The ability to backup to an idisk would be a feature of .mac. The money isn't the issue, it's the fact that you never finish paying for it (vs paying off your ibook loan). Backup is the first thing I've seen in .mac that I want, but I don't see why  I'd need an internet service to burn cd's, other than pure economics. 

I got the sourceforge approval for "opendotmac" today. It sais it will take a few days for the dns to get going. I'll put up the list of features I've started once the dns's are working.

j5


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## plastic (Sep 2, 2002)

J5, keep us posted. Thanks.


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## Ghoser777 (Sep 2, 2002)

They don't burn CDs, they just keep a duplicate of your info on their servers in Cupertino or where-ever.  Not all backup has to be on CDs or other types of removeable media.

Lots of other things aren't ever paid off, like utilities, property tax, food, etc.  The fact that you keep using Apple's resources (aka bandwidth) justifies a monthly fee.  They don't charge me forever for my iBook because if I keep using it, it won't cost Apple a dime more.

There's nothing wrong with providing a backup alternative that fits your needs better than what apple is providing, but I sense way too much venom in this discusision.  Apple can't make everyone happy, and when they try, they end up with Watson-esque fiascos.  Should people be outraged if Apple incorporates an idea that other third party developers have been working on for some time?  They're screwed no matter what they do.

You can argue that it probably would have been a good idea to include, but I think I could argue successfully that more people are going to use the anti-virus feature of .Mac than any backup feature we're talking about.  That's not to say it isn't a good idea, just it wasn't a priority.  And what ever whole apple leaves open, the market place should rush to fill, like you're attempting to do.

Matt Fahrenbacher


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## mr_mac_x (Sep 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ghoser777 _
> *They don't burn CDs, they just keep a duplicate of your info on their servers in Cupertino or where-ever.  Not all backup has to be on CDs or other types of removeable media.*



Nobody ever said that Apple would burn CDs for you. But what they did say is that if you want to burn your own Backup CDs and DVDs with your own CD/DVD burner, why should you need to be connected to the internet and paying for an internet service package?

Of course, I can't answer that question, so I would like to see a third party Backup style application.


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## Ghoser777 (Sep 2, 2002)

I thought that was what J5 was getting at, but I guess not.  Anyway, .Mac is an internet service, so its no suprise that the backup feature built into .Mac is an internet service.

So, this idea that apple bundling an internet backup solution with an internet package is somehow a bad thing is beyond me.  Should they have made one that lets you do local backups?  Sure.  Oh well.  Maybe they should make a defragger to, and every other application that a third party makes right now.  There's no reason why they have to implement every solution possible, they just need to provide several attractive ones.  And I'm sorry, backup to CDs isn't probably making everyone all giddish when they buy a new mac.  iMovie and other digital hub apps will.  That's where there priorities are.

Plus, does everyone realize there are already a couple back up apps for OS X?  Search on vt and u'll find several, such as:

Synchronize Pro
Dantz Retrospect
FoldersSynchronizer
 and many more

So if you want a free solution, that's fine.  I'm just trying to calm people down - this isn't a huge Apple blunder by any means.


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## plastic (Sep 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ghoser777 _
> *I'm just trying to calm people down - this isn't a huge Apple blunder by any means. *



THIS I TOTALLY AGREE!


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## J5 (Sep 2, 2002)

Ghoser -
I'm having trouble seeing where you're misreading my posts. My point is not that .mac is a bad idea. My point is that I probably won't use it. I'm not as excited about the "digital hub" as Apple's target market of consumers and new internet users. My machines typically see 80% work, and 30% play (yep.. they're giving 110% )

But I feel like Apple is turning their backs on the people that have kept them alive in the past. Namely the graphic design and audio/video production industries. Both industries already have their share of highly expensive 3rd party software. Being able to save them the cost of a robust backup tool may have sold a few more dp g4's.

Apple has produced a killer backup solution that would have most likely made these folks giddy about, had it not been part of .mac but an integral part of the os. Obviously, I believe backing up to an idisk should be part of .mac, but I don't see the point in needing an internet connection to backup to cd, tape, or whatever your choice of backup media may be. It doesn't make sense except when looked at from a marketing stand-point. They are about making money, as is any company that has lasted as long as they have. I can't hate them for that, but I don't have a problem offering up some competition to persuade them to increase the value of their services. Again.. had backup been a part of the jaguar release, Apple would have made alot of it's long time users happier. At least I wouldn't be complaining in such a public place. 

Another point (which may be unique to this one shop)....the last graphic design house I worked at had a couple macs in the basement. They were used strictly for scanning and output. They were purposely not connected to the internet due to the fact that they were manned at night by part-time students and a few interns. Nothing against students/interns, but we found that they were much more productive if they didn't have internet access. But at the same time, with the size/volume of images and print jobs, these machines were backed up much more frequently than the design machines.

Ok.. this post is getting long! Ghoser - you mentioned a few post back that you wouldn't mind helping out on this app. My mail is posted here somewhere, drop me an email and I'll send you the latest list of proposed features if you're still interested. 

J5


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## Ghoser777 (Sep 2, 2002)

Okay, at this point we're just arguing over whether or not we thing bundling software for backup is really important for OS X.  I take one position, you take another, but we'll just call it an argumentative draw.... for now 

I'll email you about the app once I find your email address.

Matt Fahrenbacher


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## Ghoser777 (Sep 2, 2002)

Look at this image:







Hehe, it's an image I get when I login to my .Mac account - I guess it does have an application that lets you backup to DVDs, CDs, OR iDisk.  I'm downloading it as we speak... we can still do the project, but it looks like Apple has already made it (al biet for a bundled cost).

That's way too funny. 

Matt Fahrenbacher


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## Captain Code (Sep 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ghoser777 _
> *I guess it does have an application that lets you backup to DVDs, CDs, OR iDisk.
> *



Yes, but I think his point is that you must be connected to the internet to use that feature(CDs or DVDs).


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## J5 (Sep 2, 2002)

Hehe -- 
Devonferns - that's exactly my point. That and I still don't see it being worth $99 per year to me, as this is so far the only feature in .mac that I want. 

Ghoser - sounds good! Glad to see your still interested!

J5


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## plastic (Sep 2, 2002)

<--- silly me... but "Hurray!" that is one argument settled... heehee...


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## jcart12 (Sep 3, 2002)

I certainly didn't pay $100 dollars for the backup tool. Plus it doesn't stop you from backing up to CD, just download something else. I don't understand your rant. Backing up to iDisk is plain silly. Even with broad-band it would be slow. If you want a backup tool (free) then download SilverKeeper, lets you do incremental backups to any media. The backup tool is only version 1.0 hence why it is so crap. I do backup the occasional file to iDisk, but that just involves dragging and dropping (simple heh!).

I paid so I can host my web-site. Plus before you complain about .mac charges, visit http://wwww.networksolutions.com and see how much they charge for a SINGLE web-page. Plus every additional feature contains a price-tag.

You pay god-knows how many thousands of dollars on a computer and then start complaining over pea-nuts.
regards
John.


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## Ghoser777 (Sep 3, 2002)

Well, you don't need an internet connection, accept for downloading the software itself (which for most programs requires an internet connection now a days).

You don't have to be connected to the internet at the time your backing up either.  I bet non-.Mac users could us the program too... I'm not sure if it authenticates against .Mac accept for when you download or you want to backup to your iDisk, but I'm not sure about that.

Oh well, we'll start our project anyway
Matt Fahrenbacher


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## J5 (Sep 3, 2002)

Ghoser -
This is the sort of info I'm looking for! 


> Well, you don't need an internet connection, accept for downloading the software itself (which for most programs requires an internet connection now a days).


Nah.. our app will be telepathically force-uploaded into the user's brain. 
(but will only run in classic!)

You mention that non .mac users should be able to use it... that's exactly my argument! ---

I just downloaded it. I haven't installed it yet, but noticed this on the download site:


>  Hardware: To back up to iDisk, users must be connected to the Internet and have a valid .Mac account. To perform scheduled backups, the computer must be on with the user logged in to the machine, energy saver must be off, and the computer must be actively connected to the Internet. To create backup CDs or DVDs with Backup, you must have an internal, Apple-supplied CD-RW drive or SuperDrive and a paid .Mac subscription. Trial members will not be able to back up to CD or DVD.



hmmm... Seems I still won't be able to burn with it. I have no idea of course until I try! 

Jcart-
 again - my argument is that by doing this - Apple may sell a few more subscriptions to some new-users, or folks who just don't know any better, but it does nothing for the long-time users except make us irrate. Seems they could've made us both happy had it been part of the os. ok.. well.. I'm off to get some work done! 

Ghoser - 
The sourceforge page should be up by now. Try http://freedotmac.sourceforge.net


J5


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## plastic (Sep 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by J5 _
> *The sourceforge page should be up by now. Try http://freedotmac.sourceforge.net
> 
> 
> J5 *



Nope, it is still down...


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## unlearnthetruth (Sep 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by J5 _
> *
> hmmm... Seems I still won't be able to burn with it. I have no idea of course until I try!
> 
> J5 *



you don't *need* a superdrive, actually. I was under the same impression at first, and a little annoyed that i wouldn't be able to backup to cd, but i figured i'd give it a shot, and it worked fine using my Que!Fire external burner. 

Backing up to iDisk is kinda useless.... for us.... but if you're for one reason or another one of the customers that owns multiple gigs of space on the iDisk server, and uses them, and desires off-site backup - then it's a great solution.

Just my two cents.... Also i wanted to commend whoever it was for bringing up that we're not paying $99 for backup - we're paying for  a whole lot more. I forget who exactly said it - but it was kind of frustrating that everyone was overlooking all that you really do get with .mac. I for one think it's worth it. Then again, I'm also getting it for free 

GK


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## J5 (Sep 7, 2002)

Hey -
What I meant was that I wouldn't be able to burn cd's with out having an account, using backup. I downloaded and installed, but since I'm only a trial user, the only thing I can backup to is my idisk. 

As far as your comments on it being worth it or not, I'd like to clear the air by saying that it doesn't cost $99. It costs $99 per year. Besides.. how could it not be worth it to you if you're getting it for free?

As far as our progress.. we're trying to decide between rsync and psync. Psync has a front-end (PsyncX). I'll try to keep this thread updated with any progress. I haven't even touched rsync yet.

J5


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## Captain Code (Sep 7, 2002)

I would hope you choose psync so that you can save the resource forks as well as the data forks.


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## unlearnthetruth (Sep 7, 2002)

Ah I wasn't aware that the trial version limited what you could backup to - my mistake.


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## J5 (Sep 7, 2002)

Hey -
No problem. That's the driving force behind this whole thread!

J5


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## Ghoser777 (Sep 8, 2002)

I wish I had a moggle...

Anyway, just to counterpoint, it's $99 a year because the service costs Apple money each year.  Unlike hardware which Apple builds once and then trades you for money, a service continues to be rendered each year and so you pay each year.

I have no personal preference between psync and rsync (which has been ported to X with HFS+ support... does that give us resource fork handeling support as well?).  If PsyncX is already done, then what else is there to do?  Maybe it's not as complete as you want J5?  I dunno, just checking.

What would your custom backup utility do taht PsyncX doesn't?

Matt Fahrenbacher


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## 90X Double Side (Sep 8, 2002)

To clarify, you don't have to be online to burn CDs/DVDs (why would you?), but the Backup program does have to connect to .Mac at least once to verify your membership and unlock the full feature set (inluding CD/DVD backups), which is probably why Apple notes that you need an internet connection to use this functionality.

The reason that iDisk backup is extremely valuable is because it provides easy _offsite_ storage. Your set of weekly CD-RW backups sitting on your desk woulnd't do any good if your house burned down, but your iDisk backup would. Obviously you're not going to backup everything to your iDisk, but a few essential files like your keychain, your address book, your iTunes database, and any Word documents you are currently working on should be backed up offsite for some extra security, and Backup provides iDisk QuickPicks for all of these. Those essential files are usualy only 5-10MB, taking under half an hour to backup on a 56K (and you should just schedule backups for 4AM anyways).


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## mr_mac_x (Sep 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ghoser777 _
> *Anyway, just to counterpoint, it's $99 a year because the service costs Apple money each year.  Unlike hardware which Apple builds once and then trades you for money, a service continues to be rendered each year and so you pay each year.*



How does it cost Apple money to let me back up to my own DVDs/CDs? I buy the DVD-Rs (from Apple, no less) and I burn them with my own data with my own time all by my self.

I don't care if they want to charge for backing up to iDisks, that makes sense. But to backup to CD/DVDs, they have no excuse to charge a yearly fee.


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