# My Month With XP.



## themacko (Jun 17, 2002)

I converted from a Windows user to a Mac user in August of 2001.  I got myself an iBook 500 after my PC was stolen out of my dorm room at the end of the previous semester.

I used that iBook the entire school year and I _loved_.  I vowed I would never go back to a PC as my personal computer.  We all know the reasons why.

Anyway, as this Spring semester came to a close I decided that I needed more from my computer.  More hard drive space, a cd burner and a faster graphics card for Wolfenstein.  So I sold my iBook in preperation of getting an iMac at the end of this summer.

I am now living back with my folks while I wait for my friends lease's to end (we're getting a place together) and I have been using my father's Gateway PC with Windows XP for the past month and a half.

It wasn't much of a problem at first .. then the little annoyances started.  Internet Explorer crashes and wants to send an 'error report' at least once a day.  The entire machine crashes once a week, on at least one occasion it crashed on me four times in twenty minutes.  I went completely ape and almost threw the monitor out the window.

Norton Anti-Virus and Firewall continually bothered me about protective maintenance.  Not to mention, if I had more than 5 programs open at once (ie; WinAmp, Word, Explorer, Acrobat and AIM) the computer seemed to grind to a hault.

This is not a slow computer, either.  In fact, it is a rather new Pentium 4 1.4 GHz with 256 mb ram.

To top it all off, over the weekend his computer literally died.  It began re-starting itself w/o any warning and loosing all sorts of data.  It has now been at our local 'Gateway Country' store for 3 days with no light at the end of the proverbial tunnel.

In conclusion, when I get my new computer in about a month, it will definately NOT be a PC.  I actually concidered one when my father almost got me a Sony VAIO laptop .. but I would rather spend my own money on a computer that would work the way I wanted it to, than get a free XP box.

I am actually quite bored in between summer classes today, so feel free not to respond.  Just thought I'd take part in the whole 'switch' thing that's going on.  I guess I can call this, *www.apple.com/stay*.


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## xaqintosh (Jun 17, 2002)

I think I speak for the entire Mac OS X community when I tell you that I feel sincerely sorry for you about your entire MONTH havbing to use nothing but Windows, and I am grateful it wasn't me 

edit: ok, _some_ of the Mac OS X community


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## ~~NeYo~~ (Jun 17, 2002)

hmmm, i'm sorry to Hear of your Misfortune with XP, and the PC! Personally, i share a Very Different View, all except one thing! ever since early Whistler BETA's, there was Some Conflict between Nvidia GPU's or Namely the Detonator Drivers, and XP! almost everytime i load a Game, requiring 3D hardware Accelertion, XP will lock up, and after insisting XP doesn't Just Restart, but Give me a BSOD, i came to the conclusion that it was the Nvidia / XP relation ... the term "nv4_disp.dll" was the cause for ALL BSOD's! this is something i have Found VERY annoying, as its been around for over a year, with no fix from either M$ Nor any set of Detonator's from Nvidia! 

However, besides this little Mishap, which occurs merely randomly. i can honestly say, XP Works pretty much a charm! 
As you all know, my XP has had Considerable vital System Files hacked, and So forth, but it remains to work Perfectly, alongside a good 10 or More Apps, which add Eye Candy or mac like Objects to the Computer, totalling, 300mb or so RAM in use, on idle! i do have 768B inside, which seems to help Considerably! 

Despite the praise i have for *Microsoft's* BEST OS, i to, am planning to move to Mac, for a few reasons, and Should get my iBook (500) _back_ real soon! (We started alike, "themacko" ). 

NeYo


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## azosx (Jun 17, 2002)

I bought a Cube last year for a discount price when they were discontinued and loved it.  Being a PC user for over a decaded, this was something new and exciting, especially with OS X.  The Cube had it's share of problems.  It liked to turn on by itself at times and would freeze completely on a gray screen at boot for no apparent reason.  I sent it in to Apple and they fixed it under warranty and has run near flawless since.

Now the time had come to replace my Dell laptop that had been running flawlessly for about 3 years now.  The warranty was almost up so I decided to buy a PowerBook G4.  It arrived several days after ordering it, unfortunately, out of the box it had peeling paint, a black mark across the underside near the battery, and a non functioning A/C port.  I'm a pretty forgiving person, I run a business and understand these things happen so I called up Apple and they were nice enough to "make an exception" to fix the cosmetic defects and would repair the A/C port under warranty.

To my surprise this took 3 weeks, and when I got my PowerBook back, a brown greasy substance was oozing from the LCD hinges, covering the keyboard, screen and top and bottom of the PowerBook.  A 5 in scratch ran across the top left of the LCD and the A/C port was still not functioning.  "Ok" i thought, "it looks like they've been using it to change car tires for the last 3 weeks, lovely."  I called Apple immediately and explained the condition my PowerBook came back in.  While on hold I was holding the PowerBook and for no other reason than boredom, depressed the PC card slot eject button.  Amazingly, it would not reseat into the machine.  One more thing to add to the list of growing problems.  Next, a repair technician came on the phone and acussed me of mishandling the unit and causing these problem.  He then said he'd make an acception to fix the damage one more time.  Rather pissed off by now I called back and was transferred to a product specialist, she was very nice and put my unit on a loop to insure it would be fixed in the least amount of time.  When they got the laptop for the second time now, they mistakenly opened it up under the wrong case number so it again took nearly 3 weeks to fix.  Oh, did I mention, I'm a college student well into summer session and have had no laptop for over a month?  

So the PowerBook comes back, A/C port still is not functioning and now the unit has a distinctive rattle when picked up.  Kind of like a screw is tumbling around on the inside of the machine.  Atleast I'll never beable to mistakenly identify my PowerBook should the need ever arise.

I called back the product specialist who helped me get the repairs "expedited" and told her my problems.  She tried to convince me that the A/C port was normal and the rattle I hear is common with all PowerBooks.  Basically she blew me off, no longer wanting to deal with this issue.

It's pretty sad I had to go out of my way, take this thing across town to a Certified Apple Repair Center and have them tell me what I knew all along, the machine is broken.

These guys were awesome, they told me this was total BS, that by now Apple should be replacing the unit and what I should say to them to insure this happens.  They also told me to have Apple call them if any problems should arise.

Apple is in the process of replacing the PowerBook.  After a month and a half and having dropped several grand on something, I have absolutely nothing to show for it.

In anycase, I can relate to your PC woes, just with a Mac instead.  Am I never going to touch a Mac again, no, crap happens.  I guess some of us are just more open minded than others.


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## Alexandert (Jun 17, 2002)

Ok. I switched. From Mac to PC. At first I felt sad about it. But now after a month of using my machine I can say that this Machine ROCKS!!! I love it. I LOVE MY MACHINE!

But I hate the OS!

Loc at my sig. there you can find my specs. The Ge-Force Ti 4 is just awesome! All games I ever wanted (for over 12 years of mac use) run fast as s...! With 6x FSAA turned on, Antisotropic Filtering and so on and so on... I bought everything over the internet and got everything in 24 hours for about 1200! Im sure it will kick every Macs ass in games and co.. I dont often use Photoshop and stuff. So this machine just rocks!

One thing about the OS. I worked with OS X for over 1 year. less then 30 days with XP. And I can say that XP is crap. Related to OS X it just................. No I cant find a word for that. Just bad. In that time I found out how to deactivate the "Oh, your computer crashed. Lets talk to microsoft about it. Please put down you personall life" - dialogs. It crashed in this 30 days 3 times. (Because the Ge-Ti 4 is new and the drivers suck) 


Ok, the moral of all this???

I hated PCs. I used to call them PeeCees. And I would like to say that my mind changed totally! I love my PC. Because I had to build it up from the ground I feel like having a "baby".   This Machine has incredible power. And with all the equippment it shipped with (BLUETOOTH!!! ONBOARD!!!) it kicks the digital hubs ass by far! 

BUT

All this power is nothing without a good OS which can use the full potential of your machine. XP is the best System Micros... has? Cool. But its shit. I would really love OS X on my machine. That would be just great.

As I'm writing this I'm using Win2k and it works flawlessly.I like the way the Explorer is integrated into the system. Whereever you are you can just type an adress into the window and 2 secs later it opens it. (Its so much faster in Internet things!)

So what did we learn??? 

XP sucks but PCs are good. I dont thing Apple would do such a big mistake If the bring X to PC.  


(Sorry for bad english, language, spelling, word and all the other bad stuff in this text)


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## kanecorp (Jun 17, 2002)

themacko...maybe you dont know of to use a PC... 
i have 5, Some with XP Pro and some with 2000 Pro, i have non of the problems you have....


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## xaqintosh (Jun 17, 2002)

I'm getting very depressed by this thread, too much Pro-XP and Anti-Mac



edit: I have left this thread for good


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## bubbajim (Jun 17, 2002)

xaqintosh:  There no need to worry.  Just step out of this thread and pick the plethera of threads out there that are more cheerful .

Back to this thread though...  azosx:  I can't believe that Apple would do such a thing unless there was reasons to suspect something.. I'm not saying you did anything to the unit or displacing blame, but I am just indicating that sometimes a conversation can go the wrong way.  Once that was done they keep that info in a consumer log and any future conversations w/Apple tech will bring up your previous encounters with them. 
I am in agreement with you though and would have not even accepted the fact that they sent a scratched up unit in the first place (Is the unit new or refurbished?) Though the joyage was long and hard, I think none the less you will enjoy your laptop.


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## ~~NeYo~~ (Jun 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by xaqintosh _
> *I'm getting very depressed by this thread, too much Pro-XP and Anti-Mac
> 
> *



LOL! ...Thats Because M$, are Kinda taking Steps Forward ... Well they Did, until Product Activation! lol! ... i like XP, Esp its Customizablility! *Cough* 

Who knows, SP1 is pretty iminent it seems, so that Could be a fix 2 my One and only Nag! 

Neyo


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## Annihilatus (Jun 17, 2002)

I use XP all the time and to say that it's unstable is just retarded.

I have an Duron 1100 MHz with 512 megs of RAM. I have a mouse, a graphics tablet, a USB joystick, a 21 inch monitor, a laser printer and webcam plugged to the computer at all times.

Does the computer freeze? Only if I use a TV card that wasn't certified for XP. Does it freeze otherwise? No.

I don't think any regular Mac user ever considers the fact that PC's are very regularly equipped with hardware that could be considered outdated. It's not uncommon to see a new computer equipped with a sound card that was released in 1998. Half the time, that sound card or any outdated hardware is the source of the problem.

When you want to upgrade a PC, you usually change just the processor and motherboard and you're on your way. When you upgrade an Apple, most of the time you're buying a completely new computer. It's obvious that if every single one of the pieces is approved by Apple, it'll work better. What would happen if Microsoft shipped its own PC's with only approved hardware of its own? Chances are it would never crash at all.

How many manufacturers make hardware that goes inside the PC? Several hundred. How many manufacturers make hardware that goes inside a Mac? You can count them on one hand, two to be generous.

When you're comparing a PC to a Mac, you're comparing a company that caters to billions of different configurations to one that caters to a few. If there is a conflict with Windows on a PC, it doesn't mean it affects every single PC out there. If there is a conflict on a Mac, it's easy to fix since every single iMac is identical and if you're using a tower, there are only a few manufacturers that actually make compatible hardware so it's not like you have to look for long to fix the problem.

Anyways, in the end, you have to hand it to Microsoft. They're not as pretty or secure as Apple, but they have a much bigger job to do and frankly, XP is a DAMN FINE os. 

If there's trouble with XP, chances are it's the user's fault and not the OS'. Besides, if you were using a Gateway machine, you were using a machine by a manufacturer that equips its PC with the shittiest parts out there to make the biggest profit. I assemble my own PC's, as such I know I'm buying quality hardware. Quality hardware = quality experience and my XP is damn awesome to tell you the truth. Once again, it doesn't have as much eye candy as Mac OS X, but it's much faster and less expensive.

Andre


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## Javintosh (Jun 17, 2002)

yawn... it's like deja vu all over again (to quote someone famous)....

I remember having the Mac/Win debate with people when Win3.1 was the latest and greatest. These people swore up and down that Win 3.1 was da bomb.

Then Win95 came out and suddenly Win3.1, which these people swore up and down was a great OS, became a piece of crap. Listening to some of these people was like listening to myself when I argued with them.  Someone must have been taking notes...  

Win 95, on other other hand was da bomb!

Did not hear much when Win98 came out (as it was Win95 rebranded). Did not hear much about WinNT (could anyone defend *that* with a straight face?)... but then Win2K came out...

If you are wondering how that went, just reread the paragraphs 2-4 again. Only this time change win 3.1 for Win95/98 or WinNT and change Win95 for Win2K.... but then WinXP came out...

If you are wondering how that went, just repeat the previous paragraph, lump Win2K with Win95/98 and WinNT and then exchange Win2K for WinXP.

Steve Jobs may have his reality distortion field, but at least we mac users *know* about it... 

I use WinXP at work. Frankly, I don't understand what people are excited about... It is Win2K repackaged.

Come to think of it, the whole Win95/98 thing is identical to the current Win2K/XP thing.

Has my windows XP crashed? no. 
Do all my PageMaker print jobs show up in the printer queue with the same exact name regardless of document name? yes.  

Microblows will never cease to amaze me.


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## xaqintosh (Jun 17, 2002)

> Steve Jobs may have his reality distortion field,



ok, I'm back. can someone enlighten me as to what the above mentioned ~ refers to?


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## Javintosh (Jun 17, 2002)

wow, that was a short exodus.  

here's a link that talks about the Reality Distortion Field:

http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/0011/02.backseat.shtml

Here's an excertp for the article:

For those of you not familiar with this amazing phenomenon, it works like this. When the charismatic Jobs gives a keynote speech, everything he says comes off as powerful truth. He makes believers of us all right then and there. Sometimes the effect fades when we're away from his presence, sometimes it doesn't.

For instance, when Jobs introduced the gorgeous 22-inch Apple Cinema Display, at that moment in time, I knew I had to have one. Never mind that my wife would shoot me for buying a monitor that cost more than my car. When the CEO unveiled the Cube, I had to have one.


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## Javintosh (Jun 17, 2002)

actually, I found an even better quote about Steve's Reality Distortion Field: 

The Steve Jobs reality distortion field is an interesting phenomenon to experience first hand. The effect lasts about 48 hours. In New York last summer I heard a fitting line to capture the feeling. A guy in the row behind me called someone on his cell phone just after the keynote ended and I heard him say, "It was great, it was just great, I drank the Kool-Aid." For those of you who don't get the reference, highlight the hidden white text that follows to reveal the answer. The reference is to the cult of Jim Jones whose followers drank cyanide laced Kool-Aid in a mass suicide in Jonestown, Guyana, too many years ago for me to want to remember. Fortunately for the Mac faithful, Steve is not deadly. ;-) It turned out to be the funniest line of the expo. And lots of people drank the Kool-Aid in San Francisco last week. 

http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/0101/17.briggs.shtml


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## azosx (Jun 17, 2002)

bubbajim:  The PowerBook G4 was purchased brand new through an Authorized Apple Reseller.  Seeing as so many people have had paint problems, I'm not surprised now it came out of the box that way.  As for the damaged A/C port, the box appeared to have sustained damage in  the same corner the A/C port was orientated, possibly due to shipping.  The styrofoam in that corner of the box was broken, yet the outer box and shipping box didn't appear to be damaged.  Apple was made aware of this the first time I sent the PowerBook in for repair.  

The conversation with the repair technician went something like this. 

Tech:  "What have you been doing with your PowerBook?"

Me:  "Nothing.  I've only had it back from Apple for about 20 minutes."

Tech:  very rudely, "You do know you need to be ginger with these units!"

Me:  confused, "I haven't had it long enough for anything to have happened to it."  less than 20 minutes before the conversation, Airborne Express droped-off the PowerBook.  They could see that on the package tracking.

Tech:  very rudely, "I'll make an exception and fix it one more time for you but in the future you need to be more careful with your PowerBook!"

The tech was just an ass and it was obvious that the grease, scrached LCD, broken PC card slot and yet to be fixed A/C port couldn't have been caused by abuse, just poor repair workmanship.

The trackpad even came back with a horizontal crease down the middle of it, and the paint around the PC card slot eject button was missing.

I realize most of the people you talk with at Apple Support are just out-sourced technical help from some company but still, Apple should monitor them more carefully.

You mentioned Apple keeping logs, which is funny because when I was transfered to a product specialist after this little incident,  she checked to see which repair tech had talked to me, then went silent, then was very eager to see I be taken care of.  Possibly he was the one with a poor service record.

In any case, I still like Apple and think the PowerBook G4, despite it's subtle flaws, chipping paint, rather fragile, is still the best professional laptop on the market today.  I see no reason why the replacement wont be perfect and I think my experience was just a freak occurance.


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## ~~NeYo~~ (Jun 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Annihilatus _
> *If there's trouble with XP, chances are it's the user's fault and not the OS'. Besides, if you were using a Gateway machine, you were using a machine by a manufacturer that equips its PC with the shittiest parts out there to make the biggest profit. I assemble my own PC's, as such I know I'm buying quality hardware. Quality hardware = quality experience and my XP is damn awesome to tell you the truth. Once again, it doesn't have as much eye candy as Mac OS X, but it's much faster and less expensive.
> 
> Andre *



Well, Mine Works a Charm, and Looks Great Too! ... what more can u ask for?! 
i do agree tho, i'd never buy a machine from a shop, and would always build it by hand, you know what you have, and also, an inkling as to what maybe a problem, if one is to arise! 
Click for Large Version! 



 

NeYo


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## azosx (Jun 17, 2002)

_yawn... it's like deja vu all over again (to quote someone famous)...._

_Microblows will never cease to amaze me._


Why is it when a PC user notes a positive experience with Windows there's always an offensive Mac user ready to belittle him?  The truth can probably be found in the reverse of this senario as well.

Every platform, whether it be Mac, Windows, or UNIX has their pros and cons.  It's absurd to think one is better than all the others at everything.  To lock yourself into using just one is a shame.

For me I find my PC with Windows 2000 Advanced Server to be the best solution for my desktop computer at home.  I'm hoping to find the PowerBook G4 to be a better mobile solution than any Wintel laptop on the market.  I have a Cube and 15" Studio Display as well, and others in my house prefer that.

Do I run over to them and make fun of them for using the Cube?  No.   Is flaming over who's hardware and software counter-productive?  Yes.

If I based my decision to use a specific platform on one or two bad experiences that every anti-Mac and PC user seem to do, there wouldn't be a computer in this world I'd feel right about using.


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## Annihilatus (Jun 17, 2002)

Out of curiosity, is that Mac OS X screenshot actually Mac OS X or simply Windows XP modified to look like OS X?

Andre


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## Annihilatus (Jun 17, 2002)

Nevermind, I just realized OmniWeb was launched on that shot.

Andre


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## ~~NeYo~~ (Jun 17, 2002)

LOL! Actually, it is windows XP, as i quoted!  

Neyo


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## Javintosh (Jun 17, 2002)

Annihilatus

sorry, I did not mean to come off like a jackass. 

Today I spent over 4 hours explaining to some idiot that the above-mentioned PageMaker/WinXP problem was not caused by operator (me) error. By the end I was ready to kill someone and it was not even time for lunch.  

Then the rest of the day I watched the union electrician install standard electrical outlets (110s!) at a rate of 1 every 90 minutes. At the end of the day he left (and left me without power) because he did not have wire nuts? What *electrician* does not have wire nuts?

anyway, I came home muttering about that idiot at work. I sat down and found that you had repeated some of the same things he kept saying to me during those 4 hours... 

soory about that. 

and BTW: azosx - thanks for pointing it out.  

That said: 
I think that Win2K is a mediocre OS. 
I also think that MacOS X is a mediocre OS.

However, I think that with Win2K took a turn southwards with WinXP (they *are* basically the same OS). On the other hand. I expect that MacOS X will take a turn for the better this fall.


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## Annihilatus (Jun 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Javintosh _
> *Annihilatus
> 
> sorry, I did not mean to come off like a jackass.
> ...



You didn't come off as a jackass, don't worry. I'm not the type to judge anyway.

I just thought about how to answer the age-old mac vs pc or macos vs windows with my own story.

As of friday, I was ready to switch to a Mac. In fact, I was ready to get rid of my duron 1100mhz with 512 megs ram fully equipped with 21 inch monitor for Triple-B's ibook. What finally stopped me is my realization that neither Windows, the hardware nor microsoft was souring my experience, but rather the windows users themselves.

For one, I work for a tech company where I deal with Windows users every day. The sheer stupidity of the majority of them makes me want to place them in a firing range and just go nuts. Frankly, whenever I watch anybody fuck up their Windows, I keep telling myself that none of this would have happened if they were all using Macs. On top of it all, the smart Windows users I know are all warez freaks.

Here's my profile. I'm an artist, I only use software I paid for. I can fix my own problems and I find Windows' interface to be the most convenient I've ever come across. What programs are opened are placed at the app bar at the bottom, running services are in the taskbar and if anything ever goes wrong, I can close the process with CTRL-ALT-DEL and end task. Basically, I know where everything is and I can customize it to my liking. Everything about Windows to me screams convenience. As a result of my realizing this, I decided to opt-out of getting a Mac for the time being (perhaps later when I become a full-time teacher but not yet).

With that realization comes another thought. If all of the idiots calling in with Windows problems got themselves Macs, would the problems really stop or would the idiots find new ways of fucking up the system?

Think about it, all spyware companies would start work on developing Mac spyware, Joe Idiot would start putting peanut button in the iMac CD-ROM slot and every moron out there would drag and drop the finder to the desktop, reboot and cause all sorts of trouble. In essence, if things were reversed and MacOS was number 1, would things really be better or would blame for all of the world's troubles simply be transferred to Steve Jobs and Apple?

Andre


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## genghiscohen (Jun 17, 2002)

I belong to a non-computer-related Yahoo group (gasps of shock from the audience).  We do discuss our 'puters and their relative strengths and problems from time to time, though.
Three of the folks in this group have made the switch from Win98 or Win2k to XP.  All three have had *major* hardware and/or software compatibility problems.  Two of them like some of the new features, and plan to stick with XP.  The 3rd is going back to Win98.
I'm one of three Mac users in the group (as far as I know), and the only OS X user.  So I make sure to pass along news items showing the superiority of OS X whenever I come across them.


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## Alexandert (Jun 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by xaqintosh _
> *I'm getting very depressed by this thread, too much Pro-XP and Anti-Mac
> *



Didnt anyone read my post??? You cant say Pro-XP and Anti-Mac. Is Mac an OS??? No it is not! It is a computer. You have to say Pro-PC and (some) Anti-Mac.

PCs with the right OS (ie. Linux) are great machines!


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## Alexandert (Jun 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ~~NeYo~~ _
> *LOL! Actually, it is windows XP, as i quoted!
> 
> Neyo *




   ahhhhohhhhwowhuuu

HOW???


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## lonny (Jun 18, 2002)

Mac users.. yes, strange breed.
We like to feel different. We know we know better... and probably we do.

Windose may work ok for some people. I use all flavours at work. It just feels horrible to me. It always did: even before I became a Mac user (I used to have an Amiga:supercool system).

It's all about sensitivity. There are some things in Windose that I just can't stand, i.e. everytime I click on Start to shut it down I get nervous.

It's all been discussed before, to death.
I think Mac users are more sensitive. That's all  

In an ideal world Macs would have a 20% market share. Enough to get all support we need, little enough to get less virii, spyware and stuff.

But mostly the reason everyone should embrace, not to use M$ products, is to stop a monopoly whose ethics are dangerous for everyone's freedom. The fact that most people don't get it frightnens me.


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## Annihilatus (Jun 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Alexandert _
> *PCs with the right OS (ie. Linux) are great machines! *



Linux sucks. I'm not joking here. I've given the OS so many chances and the more I use it, the more I hate it. The lack of standards, the choppy GUI and frankly the number of exploits for it really bother me. Some distributions are ok, but most are just horrid. If you have a PC, use Windows. You really don't have much of a choice.

Andre


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## Alexandert (Jun 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Annihilatus _
> *
> 
> Linux sucks. I'm not joking here. I've given the OS so many chances and the more I use it, the more I hate it. The lack of standards, the choppy GUI and frankly the number of exploits for it really bother me. Some distributions are ok, but most are just horrid. If you have a PC, use Windows. You really don't have much of a choice.
> ...



Ok. Thats what you think. I think its a great OS!


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## Annihilatus (Jun 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by lonny _
> *Mac users.. yes, strange breed.
> We like to feel different. We know we know better... and probably we do.*



I don't think you KNOW better because you like the Mac. That would be like saying that all people using AOL are smart because they use AOL (if you're an AOL fan). Most PC people I know can fix their own problems and will very quickly be able to point out an IRQ conflict or conflicting software. Mac users, most of the ones I know, will give 1-800-MY-APPLE a call instead of trying to figure things out.



> *Windose may work ok for some people. I use all flavours at work. It just feels horrible to me. It always did: even before I became a Mac user (I used to have an Amiga:supercool system). It's all about sensitivity. There are some things in Windose that I just can't stand, i.e. everytime I click on Start to shut it down I get nervous.*



I won't deny this was a problem with the earlier versions of Windows, Millennium especially but also 98 and 95. With 2000 and NT, I haven't seen shutdown problems very often. With XP, I have yet to see one. Let's not forget for what audience Windows was developed. Windows 95 and 98 were created to cater to an audience that required the use of DOS programs. Many people I know (and I consider them backwards people), still use 95 and 98 for their precious and outdated DOS software. Microsoft had to sacrifice stability and functionality to allow those backwards people to get their jobs done. Had they just sacrificed everything and made a completely new OS like Apple did with Mac OS X, things might have been different. While today it is possible to run an emulated session of Mac OS 9 within Mac OS X because of better resources, it wasn't at all possible to do in 1995 considering the low power of the average computer back then (think 486-66). Notice how slow Mac OS 9 runs in OS X and then think of what would have happened had Microsoft tried to emulate DOS within Windows back then. It wouldn't have been a pretty sight. In the past few years, Microsoft has finally sacrificed DOS and said 'move to Windows' but even know they're trying hard to maintain some kind of compatibility. PC users are extremely picky with software support, Mac users tend to be picky with the overall experience.



> *In an ideal world Macs would have a 20% market share. Enough to get all support we need, little enough to get less virii, spyware and stuff.*




In my ideal world, Apple would try harder to embrace PC users by making the leap to Mac a much easier one. The first task would be to use hardware that is easily interchangeable. Say for instance that you have a PC and want to have a Mac, make it so that you would just have to change the motherboard and processor and you'd be on your way. Make motherboards and processors freely available and people will make the leap. Or, simply move the Mac onto the x86 platform. Some people would go ahead and buy PC's straight from Apple, others would keep whatever they have (because it IS very expensive after all) and just change OS'. Within a few months, Apple would go from a market share of 3.5% to 25% at least. I know Apple is a hardware company and would not allow this to happen, but let's face it, that 3.5% isn't going to move very far unless Apple makes a few sacrifices. It has already been confirmed that software, not hardware, sells better.



> *But mostly the reason everyone should embrace, not to use M$ products, is to stop a monopoly whose ethics are dangerous for everyone's freedom. The fact that most people don't get it frightnens me. *



They are unquestionably unethical, I agree with that. However, they are also very smart. They're one step ahead of the market at all times and that is why they control it. Sure I would have liked to see Microsoft play fair, sure I would have liked for IE and Outlook Express to be removable from my XP (even though I like them both), sure I would have liked to freely move to Linux and enjoy the same software library. That is not yet a possibility and frankly I don't see Linux or anything else ever taking control from Microsoft since Windows really IS the most convenient OS out there to use. However, MacOS X is not far behind and transferring it to the PC would be easy and extremely beneficial to Apple. If OS X would be available, Apple WOULD claim a greater market share (albeit a lot of people would hate Apple because their hardware would be unsupporteD), and would ruffle a few feathers at Microsoft. But of course, Apple is quite arrogant and does not see the need.

Just look at it this way:

If Apple moves to x86 ->
- Greater market share
- Chance to use three different processors that are constantly upgrading rather than one, stagnant platform
- Offers customers more choice

If Apple stays on PowerPC ->
- Small market share
- Expensive computers
- Complete dependability on Motorola
- Customers have little choice.

Andre


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## edX (Jun 18, 2002)

> _said by the infamous Lonny Fearless_
> But mostly the reason everyone should embrace, not to use M$ products, is to stop a monopoly whose ethics are dangerous for everyone's freedom. The fact that most people don't get it frightnens me.



amen brother.

i'm sure they also don't get the new ads on TV here in the US that relate recreational drug use to the financial support of terrorism. people just seem to have no concept of where their money goes once it leaves their pocket.  They want it and that's all that matters. 

your friend in fear,

Ed


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## ~~NeYo~~ (Jun 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Alexandert _
> *
> 
> 
> ...



Is it  THAT Hard 2 Comprehend?! (hehe) ...







NeYo


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## themacko (Jun 18, 2002)

Well I really doubt it was me (the user) that caused all the computer problems, but who knows.  All I know is that I had a really bad eXPerience (heh) with it and I really didn't enjoy anything about it.  My mom uses a Compaq laptop with Windows 2000 and that computer seems to work just fine.  She's never had any problems with it.

I really don't HATE Windows or HATE Microsoft, I just wanted to let you all know that my month with XP has been far less than adequate.

Burning CDs is a chore.  Keeping track of digital camera pics is old-school.  Crashing and rebooting is ridicules.  I dunno, maybe I'm just spoiled from having used OS X for 9 months.


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## Annihilatus (Jun 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by themacko _
> *Well I really doubt it was me (the user) that caused all the computer problems, but who knows.  All I know is that I had a really bad eXPerience (heh) with it and I really didn't enjoy anything about it.  My mom uses a Compaq laptop with Windows 2000 and that computer seems to work just fine.  She's never had any problems with it.
> 
> I really don't HATE Windows or HATE Microsoft, I just wanted to let you all know that my month with XP has been far less than adequate.
> ...



Personally, I find that Easy CD Creator is damn easy, as is the CD-writing program that comes with XP. But that's just me.

Andre


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## ~~NeYo~~ (Jun 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Annihilatus _
> *
> 
> Personally, I find that Easy CD Creator is damn easy, as is the CD-writing program that comes with XP. But that's just me.
> ...



Me too! ... i've NEVER used Adaptec's Prog, but i use Nero, and that Does MORE than enough of what i need, and has a Wizard for tha n00b's! lol! 
But XP intergrated Burning Works a Charm, and intergrates well! Andre, have you ever burnt inside WMP?!

NeYo


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## Annihilatus (Jun 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ~~NeYo~~ _
> *
> 
> Me too! ... i've NEVER used Adaptec's Prog, but i use Nero, and that Does MORE than enough of what i need, and has a Wizard for tha n00b's! lol!
> ...



I must admit I never have, never needed to.

Andre


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## ~~NeYo~~ (Jun 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Annihilatus _
> *
> 
> I must admit I never have, never needed to.
> ...



Me Never, but i try to keep away From WMP really, other than Web Media! i'd prefer if XP's intergrated burning could do Audio CD'z, instead of trying 2 make WMP do it! ah well! 

NeYo


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## xaqintosh (Jun 18, 2002)

> Didnt anyone read my post??? You cant say Pro-XP and Anti-Mac. Is Mac an OS??? No it is not! It is a computer. You have to say Pro-PC and (some) Anti-Mac.
> 
> PCs with the right OS (ie. Linux) are great machines!



1st of all: Macintosh (and mac and mac OS X etc.) IS an OS. The computer is an Apple, the OS is Mac. That's how it works. Sometimes Mac is the Computer also, but it generally refers to the OS. 

PC is the computer and Windows (XP) is the Operating system

2nd: IMO the only thing Linux has going for it is the free-ness and the great customizability, other than that OS X is better than Linux.


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## edX (Jun 18, 2002)

> 1st of all: Macintosh (and mac and mac OS X etc.) IS an OS. The computer is an Apple, the OS is Mac. That's how it works. Sometimes Mac is the Computer also, but it generally refers to the OS.



wrong zak - the mac-chine is a mac, it is made by a company called apple. It's called mac os because it is an os for a mac mac-chine.


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## Javintosh (Jun 18, 2002)

I like the Mac for all of the usual reasons, however, there are a couple of things I think are important that people have not talked much about in this thread yet.

1. I don't worry about anyone hacking into my computer and snooping/messing things around.

2. I don't worry about computer viruses. Back in OS 9, I used to do a virus scan every 6-9 months. Eventually I stopped completely. It may be selfish, but I don't care if I pass viruses to other people. If they use windows, they should expect to do the chronic virus-related updated.

I addition to that. When I use the Mac I feel in control. When I use Windows I always feel that I am having certain things shoved up my ass. It seems that every time I turn around the software is doing something I did not ask for. This definitely *is* microsoft's fault. it is also a large part of my dislike for them. I mean, they actually had the audacity to change my IE homepage to msn.com. Then they called this homepage change a "feature". 

In a way, that's what it is like to use Microsoft's stuff (I'm sure hotmail users will agree =). That galls me to no end. MS did not get my employer's money so they could shove intrusive ads down my throat.


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## Javintosh (Jun 18, 2002)

oh yeah... I think the "best" XPerience I've heard of so far happened at work. When XP first came out, some hapless? employee at my company decided to install it.

I heard this from EDS who has a contract to handle all the IT crap at my company. Anyway, as the EDS person tells it, XP as configured by default has a service enabled that does not play nice with Cisco routers configured in a very specific way which is, of course, how they are configured at my company (sorry, he did not give me any more details). Anyhow, when you bring up XP after a fresh install, this service will start and it will trigger a bug in the nearest cisco router. Before crashing, the router will pass the trigger to all routers connected to it. These routers will do the same. From there it all goes in this nice little cascade that will propagate through the entire LAN until it hits the WAN routers. The XP install disabled the entire network at the location up to the WAN routers.

Needless to say, he is an ex-employee and now any XP installs have to go through a torturous approval process (mine took 6 months and a crap-load of paper work). After this, EDS installs and configures the machine. They also repeat the story and warn you not to enable any XP services without calling them (presumably there is an "or you'll be joining so and so from el Segundo" implied there).

At first I though the story was made-up, but I got confirmation from co-workers that actually work out there.


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## azosx (Jun 19, 2002)

Despite my bad experience with Apple all last month, which can be read in my earlier posts to this thread, Apple has restored my confidence in the form of a PowerBook G4 667 DVI replacement to my defective 550.  It's certainly an entirely different machine when it comes out of the box flawless.  Part of tomorrow will be spent finding the perfect laptop bag for this little beast.


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## simX (Jun 19, 2002)

A couple things before I venture into talking about the main beef of this post.

1) azosx: I'm glad everything worked out for you in the end.  My dad got the second-generation 667 MHz PowerBook (the non-DVI model), and he loves it.  The one thing that's aggravating is the AirPort reception, but I've heard the DVI PowerBooks improve on that.  I'd like to hear your experiences with that, if you have a chance to play with that.

2) Neyo: You should be given a cease-and-desist order straight from Apple for what you're doing.  We've discussed it to death in other threads, I know, but you're basically making Windows XP look exactly like Mac OS X, and Apple has the right to protect its intellectual property.  One of the users in here even mistook it for OmniWeb running in OS X.

Actually, I question whether that is even Windows XP at all.  But I digress.

3) Annihilatus: I think you're right about that comment way up there.  If Apple had 95% of the market share, I think Apple would probably not be making its operating system as well as it does today.  But that's not the situation we're in right now, so it's kind of a moot point.

My ideal world would be: Apple/Mac OS at 20%.  Microsoft/Windows at 0%, with no support left  Microsoft and Windows deserves to die a horrible death for Microsoft's past actions and its absolute refusal to support open standards.  Linux, UNIX, and their variants: 20%.  Three or four other competitors (I don't care what they are  BeOS, DfOS, EgOS, WhateverOS  )with around 15-20% market share.  And all of these operating systems would be very interoperable with each other  all embrace open standards, each company works with third party developers to provide compatibility with all products with their operating system, all produce programs that can be exchanged easily with other operating systems.  

Anyway, on to what I really wanted to address.



> _Originally posted by Annihilatus _
> *I don't think you KNOW better because you like the Mac. That would be like saying that all people using AOL are smart because they use AOL (if you're an AOL fan). Most PC people I know can fix their own problems and will very quickly be able to point out an IRQ conflict or conflicting software. Mac users, most of the ones I know, will give 1-800-MY-APPLE a call instead of trying to figure things out.*



I doubt that.  Most PC people you know are probably techie kind of guys that like to tinker around with Windows and install stuff everywhere and are not willing to take risks in order to figure out how their operating system works.

I think you're neglecting people like the elderly, the very young, the people who just want to check e-mail and do word processing and that's it, the first-time computer users, etc.  The average user just wants their computer to work without them intervening.

It's a gross generalization to say that Mac users don't know what they're doing.  I could say the same thing that you do: most Mac people I know know what they're doing and can fix their problems on their own.  On the other hand, I cannot neglect my mom or my grandfather/grandmother, who get really frustrated when something doesn't work and sometimes don't know how to fix it.

The average computer user is like my grandparents and my mom, NO MATTER WHAT PLATFORM they are on  Windows, MacOS, whatever.



> *[stuff omitted due to message length]PC users are extremely picky with software support, Mac users tend to be picky with the overall experience.*



I think this is where the main difference between Apple and Microsoft.  Apple is willing to embrace open standards, to cut legacy support, and to move on with new and powerful technology.  Microsoft, on the other hand, has been rehashing its interface for well over 5 years, still supports legacy software, and absolutely refuses to support open standards  even popular ones.  Microsoft makes you PAY FOR MP3 SUPPORT IN WINDOWS MEDIA PLAYER.  What a great philosophy.

Case in point: Almost all PC users I know find some benefit with floppy disks.  That technology is well over 5 years old, and there has been just about no advancements with this technology for good reason: other technologies have replaced it.  CD-Rs, CD-RWs, FireWire hard drives, the internet, even DVD-RWs and DVD-RAMs.  But no, PC users must have their floppy drives!  Funny, because probably there would be less problems if Microsoft just abandoned floppy disk support altogether: software for legacy technology inevitably causes problems.

So your distinction is pretty much flawed.  A better distinction would be this: PC users are VERY reluctant to allow change and are even indignant about holding on to their set habits.  Mac users are concerned with what is best for them overall, and if it requires them to learn something new, they will still embrace it.



> *In my ideal world, Apple would try harder to embrace PC users by making the leap to Mac a much easier one. [] It has already been confirmed that software, not hardware, sells better.*



Excuse me?!  Give me a frickin' break!!!  Apple needs to try harder to embrace PC users?!?!?  Wow, that's a pretty ignorant statement.

The average PC user could care less about motherboards, and the internal hardware of a computer.  They could care less about the processor type inside their computer.  All they care about is their computer working.

In this respect, Apple caters to PC users perfectly.  Mac OS X is a VERY easy to use operating system, and embraces open standards like MP3 audio, all sorts of video and audio formats with QuickTime, Java, etc.  Microsoft has even made it easy for PC users by making Microsoft Office documents completely cross-platform compatible  no modifications needed to open Windows Microsoft Office files on Microsoft Office for the Mac.

And your argument about moving the Mac OS to the x86 platform is totally unreasonable, unfounded, and infeasible.  Why?  Almost all pieces of software would have to be rewritten in some fashion in order for it to work on x86 processors.  Plus, Apple would actually have to port Mac OS X to the x86 platform, something that is not trivial, whatever you may think.  Furthermore, Apple would then have the problems of supporting all those different kinds of hardware out there, that no doubt cause many problems with Windows many a time.

In contrast, Apple has minimal problems with hardware and software integration.  Why?  Because Apple makes the whole widget.  Software and hardware are tightly integrated.  That's why it would be totally stupid for Apple to port Mac OS X to the x86 platform: it would obliterate Apple's main advantage: ease-of-use.  Plus, Apple's profits would go down through the floor, because PC users would still be mired in their ways and would still not switch over to Mac OS X, despite whatever promises so many of them have.  Hardware may not sell, but widgets do.



> *They're [Microsoft] one step ahead of the market at all times and that is why they control it. [] That is not yet a possibility and frankly I don't see Linux or anything else ever taking control from Microsoft since Windows really IS the most convenient OS out there to use.*



Hahahaha.  Microsoft is one step ahead of the market?  Microsoft isn't ahead of the market  it STEPS ON the market.  It tries to stifle competition, it stoutly refuses to embrace open standards (notice a pattern in my statements here?), and it keeps PC users on the platform simply because they make it so hard to switch to other platforms.  It's not Apple that's making it hard or needs to embrace PC users  it's Microsoft that needs to become a fair company and make a product that is actually good.  Windows may be the most convenient OS.... TO YOU.  But if a new computer user were offered a day to use a Mac and a day to use a Windows machine, I'll bet you $100 that more often than not a person would take the Mac.  Problem is, Microsoft and its Windows operating system control 95% of the market, and the propaganda that Microsoft feeds new computer users make it sound like that you can't use a Mac and be able to communicate with other Windows users.  That's how Microsoft maintains its massive market share.



> *If Apple moves to x86 ->
> - Greater market share
> - Chance to use three different processors that are constantly upgrading rather than one, stagnant platform
> - Offers customers more choice
> ...



If Apple moves to x86:

 Not much of a leap in market share, because PC users would still be mired in Windows.
 More processors, more hardware = more incompatibility and more tech support problems for Apple.
 Offers customers much less quality and a much worse overall computer experience, because of hardware problems
 Apple's profits go through the floor rather than through the roof, because Microsoft will no doubt still maintain 95% of its existing market share, because of software pirating, and because their hardware sales would go down

If Apple stays with PowerPC:

 Apple can concentrate on converting PC users to the Mac platform because of maintained ease-of-use.
 Dependent on Motorola, granted.  Hopefully Motorola will put its PowerPC segment up for sale, which then IBM/Apple could acquire.
 Less expensive computers in the long run: it's been documented many times that Macs require significantly less tech support and significantly less money over its lifespan.  Unfortunately, the average consumer doesn't care about anything other than initial cost.
 Customers still have a better platform than Windows  one which embraces open standards (there's that phrase again!), is easy to use, and is non-intrusive.


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## azosx (Jun 19, 2002)

I thought I'd comment on why I think Apple should move to another processor type, not necessarily x86 though.

All Joe Average Consumer sees when buying a computer is GHz, GHz, GHz!  A PC user's conversation when casually talking to another computer user will always start out something like this.  "How fast's your computer?"  They are programmed by society to think this way.  So I'm in the store and know nothing about computers, other than I want mine to be fast because that's what society has programmed me to think.  Apple just recently broke 1 GHz, the rest of the computer world is over 2.  Why is Joe Average Consumer going to buy that 800 MHz iMac, not even a GHz for $1799 when he can get this 2.4 GHz Compaq for $899 with a monitor?  9 out of 10 times he's not and it's absurd to think a pretty GUI or computer case is going to change that.  Apple can throw all the money in the world into advertising, it's not going to change that 5% market share by much if at all.

As far as I can tell, only two things are going to change Apple's market share.  

One, get the hell away from Motorola.  Intel and AMD have released two generations of processors in the time it's taking the G5 to come out.  MHz are not a myth and are killing Apple.  Just because Photoshop can render some image with some filter faster in  OS 9 than Windows means absolutely squat to most people.  People want and need faster processors for Mac, that can do more for them than just work faster in Photoshop.  I'm not saying go to x86, but find someone who can reliably produce a processor in adiquate speeds for todays consumer market.

Two, lower your prices.  There's nothing more expensive inside a Mac than most PC computers.  If Apple was still using SCSI, maybe I could understand to some degree but that's not the case anymore.  Most of the components in a Mac are the same as a PC, other than the processor and motherboard and the motherboard has AGP, PCI, USB and Firewire so it can't be much different than most PC motherboards today other than the processor that plugs into it.  Is the G4 really that expensive to manufacture?  If so, it's killing you.  Get away from it.  The cases are tops in style but does that really justify hundreds  of dollars more over the price of a PC as well?  Find a way to lower your prices without hurting quality.  The rest of the computer world has, why can't Apple?

Apple is a niche market and if that's what they want, then by all means don't change a thing.  I don't think Apple is hurting finacially at the moment, but they may be a different story after their "real stories" campaign, but that's a whole different topic entirely.  All I can say is, as a PC and Mac user, Mac being the latter, all I see in the "real stories" commercials is Mac users belittling PC users.  It may appeal to Mac users for obvious reasons but is nothing more than insulting to PC users, many of whom love their PCs as much as Mac users love their Macs.  I see no reason why one would run out and buy a Mac, especially one at half the speed and twice the price.  If that's the attitude the Mac community has towards anything not Apple then their in for a rude awakening.


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## simX (Jun 19, 2002)

I wholeheartedly agree that Apple needs to get the hell away from Motorola, but unfortunately, that's not going to happen for a while, because as I said before, there are major technical hurdles to bringing Mac OS X and all its software to another processor.  And since Motorola is currently the only manufacturer of the G4, we are stuck with Motorola at this point.

I disagree about the price point, though.  There are several reasons why Apple's prices are so high.

1) They strive to maintain VERY healthy profit margins.  Apple has around a 25%-30% gross profit margin, which is outstanding for the computer market.  By contrast, Dell hardly makes a profit on each computer unit they sell, and certainly not up in the high 20%s.

2) Apple uses very high quality parts to ensure that the machine doesn't break down as often as your run-of-the-mill PC.  This makes for a better experience, and less time and money spent in the long run.

3) Apple has high quality design, and uses some things that the average PC maker doesn't use.  Unusual cases (especially given something like the iMac), flat-panel screens, 2 FireWire ports standard, built-in wireless antennas (even if you don't have an Airport card), and some proprietary ports, like the Apple Pro Speaker ports and the Apple Display Connectors.

These three things add up, especially #1.  In the long run, however, Macs are still less expensive, which is the most important point.

I think the best way for Apple to woo PC users is to educate them.  And finally Apple is starting to do that, with their Real People campaign.  It certainly is NOT belittling PC users!  On the contrary, it's real people telling their own stories about their PCs, and how bitter they are about wasting their time with it.  In contrast to something like car commercials where they take select quotes and put it in the commercial, Apple's Real People commercials are concentrated on the person themself: they are the only thing in the advertisement, except a brief 2 second image of a grey apple and "apple.com/switch", and it's ONLY the person's own comments.  This is very powerful, and if preliminary statistics are any indications, Apple's advertising campaign is working.  The only thing they need to do now is to have some commercials on Mac OS X.


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## Annihilatus (Jun 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by simX _
> *My ideal world would be: Apple/Mac OS at 20%.  Microsoft/Windows at 0%, with no support left  Microsoft and Windows deserves to die a horrible death for Microsoft's past actions and its absolute refusal to support open standards.  Linux, UNIX, and their variants: 20%.  Three or four other competitors (I don't care what they are  BeOS, DfOS, EgOS, WhateverOS  )with around 15-20% market share.  And all of these operating systems would be very interoperable with each other  all embrace open standards, each company works with third party developers to provide compatibility with all products with their operating system, all produce programs that can be exchanged easily with other operating systems. *



Microsoft is a corporation, as such it works as a corporation by trying to kill off competition and raise profits. Essentially, Microsoft is the perfect example of the American way, therefore it should not be 'punished' as such a thing would be hypocritical and ignorant of America's history.



> *I doubt that.  Most PC people you know are probably techie kind of guys that like to tinker around with Windows and install stuff everywhere and are not willing to take risks in order to figure out how their operating system works.
> 
> I think you're neglecting people like the elderly, the very young, the people who just want to check e-mail and do word processing and that's it, the first-time computer users, etc.  The average user just wants their computer to work without them intervening.*



FRankly, anybody who wants their computer to 'just work' can achieve that by using any flavour of Windows. It doesn't matter if it's 3.1, 95, 98 or 2000, it can happen as long as you install what you need and never tinker around like you stated. The reason so many problems occur is because a lot of conflicting software is installed. Why does this happen? Because the PC has a lot of software available to install. Whenever I talk to a businessperson, they usually install 2000 and whatever programs they need and that's it. Do they experience troubles? No. So essentially, if all that you're doing is email and word processing, you can get a 'working' computer for much less than you could a Mac.



> *The average computer user is like my grandparents and my mom, NO MATTER WHAT PLATFORM they are on  Windows, MacOS, whatever.*




I don't disagree with you there. The average computer user now is a newbie and for anyone who's never touched a computer before, I would simply recommend a Mac and nothing else. If you have experience with DOS and know the inner workings quite well, the reasons to get a Mac greatly diminish. I mean if you're only concerned about power and Windows doesn't scare you, you'll go the inexpensive route by building a powerful PC that will cost you a lot less than a powerful Mac. If however you know nothing, and know only that you want to get the job done, by all means go to the Mac. The Mac is a more welcoming computer by every means.



> *Case in point: Almost all PC users I know find some benefit with floppy disks.  That technology is well over 5 years old, and there has been just about no advancements with this technology for good reason: other technologies have replaced it.  CD-Rs, CD-RWs, FireWire hard drives, the internet, even DVD-RWs and DVD-RAMs.  But no, PC users must have their floppy drives!  Funny, because probably there would be less problems if Microsoft just abandoned floppy disk support altogether: software for legacy technology inevitably causes problems.*



When your PC is totally messed-up and your CD-ROM is not bootable, that bootable floppy drive sure comes in handy. At this point in time, there are boot disks available for all sorts of configurations that would allow you to get back on the road in minutes. Sure the floppy disk has become useless as a storage medium, but it has its benefits. Plus, it's not like it takes a lot of room on the computer.



> *Excuse me?!  Give me a frickin' break!!!  Apple needs to try harder to embrace PC users?!?!?  Wow, that's a pretty ignorant statement.*



If they want a respectable market share and a way of surviving, they will have to do this eventually. Sure putting up 8 losers on TV and encouraging other losers to buy a Mac will bring in a couple of people, but what about the people like me who would LIKE to have a Mac but can't afford to pay 4000$ (canadian) to get something that's almost as powerful as something that I would get for 2000$?



> *- Dependent on Motorola, granted.  Hopefully Motorola will put its PowerPC segment up for sale, which then IBM/Apple could acquire.*



I'd like to see this happen actually. It would not drive prices down, but at least the processors would be released faster. The way I see it, by the time Apple gets to 1.5 GHz, the PC will already be at 5 GHz. The average PC user does not give a shit about the Megahertz Myth nor the CISC architecture. All they know is that 5 GHz is a pretty high number.

Andre


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## themacko (Jun 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ~~NeYo~~ _
> *Me too! ... i've NEVER used Adaptec's Prog, but i use Nero, and that Does MORE than enough of what i need, and has a Wizard for tha n00b's! lol!*


Nero is the program that I was using .. and while I totally admit I am a complete moron when it comes to computers, I still had trouble burning a CD with it.  I just wanted to COPY a cd I bought so the original wouldn't get all scratched, and it made me convert the original cd into wav files or something, and THEN burn the new cd from those files.  It was a whole lot easier with Toast when you just put the cd in a hit copy .. and just wait to put in the cdr.

I dunno, I'm a goon.


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## simX (Jun 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Annihilatus _
> *Microsoft is a corporation, as such it works as a corporation by trying to kill off competition and raise profits. Essentially, Microsoft is the perfect example of the American way, therefore it should not be 'punished' as such a thing would be hypocritical and ignorant of America's history.*



So stealing, lying, and illegal attempts to maintain market share are the American way?  Hmm, who's being hypocritical and ignorant, here?



> *FRankly, anybody who wants their computer to 'just work' can achieve that by using any flavour of Windows. It doesn't matter if it's 3.1, 95, 98 or 2000, it can happen as long as you install what you need and never tinker around like you stated. The reason so many problems occur is because a lot of conflicting software is installed. Why does this happen? Because the PC has a lot of software available to install. Whenever I talk to a businessperson, they usually install 2000 and whatever programs they need and that's it. Do they experience troubles? No. So essentially, if all that you're doing is email and word processing, you can get a 'working' computer for much less than you could a Mac.*



Like I said before, it's been documented many times that Windows machines inherently cost more in the long run because of the time and money spent trying to fix the machines.  Macs are inherently much more easy to use and have much less problems.  Macs have plenty of software available too, but only a handful of them have the potential to cause problems with the computer.



> *I don't disagree with you there. The average computer user now is a newbie and for anyone who's never touched a computer before, I would simply recommend a Mac and nothing else. If you have experience with DOS and know the inner workings quite well, the reasons to get a Mac greatly diminish. I mean if you're only concerned about power and Windows doesn't scare you, you'll go the inexpensive route by building a powerful PC that will cost you a lot less than a powerful Mac. If however you know nothing, and know only that you want to get the job done, by all means go to the Mac. The Mac is a more welcoming computer by every means.*



What in the world does someone need experience with DOS for?  To use an aging and outdated system?

The Mac is simply not a machine just for newbies.  It has many uses.  Graphics, programming, video editing  just about everything works on a Mac.  Many video editors are increasingly using Final Cut Pro to do work.  There are no competing programs to iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD, or iTunes on the Windows side.  Windows Movie Maker is so laughable.

You're a pretty ignorant computer user if you think the Macintosh is just for newbies who only want to do word processing and e-mail.  Have you been living in a Windows world too long to see this?

Take it from Dave Haxton, one of the "losers" who is one of Apple's "Real People".  But you know what?  It's actually true  the Mac is a great development platform.  Apple offers FREE developer tools (and since you probably know all about it  care to tell us how much Microsoft CHARGES for development tools?) that are pretty awesome.  Project Builder and Interface Builder can create some awesome programs like Watson and OmniWeb, two beautiful and very functional programs.  I made my own application, Memory Usage Getter, via Project Builder, Interface Builder, and AppleScript.  Without the free developer tools that Apple offered, I never would have been able to do that.



> *When your PC is totally messed-up and your CD-ROM is not bootable, that bootable floppy drive sure comes in handy. At this point in time, there are boot disks available for all sorts of configurations that would allow you to get back on the road in minutes. Sure the floppy disk has become useless as a storage medium, but it has its benefits. Plus, it's not like it takes a lot of room on the computer.*



Where you use the floppy disk to save your PC when your CD-ROM is not bootable, I would use a FireWire hard drive (a.k.a. my iPod).  Oh, I forgot  most PC manufacturers don't embrace standards, and don't put FireWire ports on the motherboard.  Your loss.  *shrug*

Plus, I have seen no instance in which the CD-ROM drive is unbootable.  Therefore the point about the floppy drive is moot, anyway.  Oh, wait, I forgot again.  You're probably using a PC that uses the cheapest parts available, making them also of the lowest quality, where the Mac uses high quality parts which accounts for some of the higher price of the Mac.  Your loss.  *shrug*



> *If they want a respectable market share and a way of surviving, they will have to do this eventually. Sure putting up 8 losers on TV and encouraging other losers to buy a Mac will bring in a couple of people, but what about the people like me who would LIKE to have a Mac but can't afford to pay 4000$ (canadian) to get something that's almost as powerful as something that I would get for 2000$?*



Those "losers" are driving increased interest in the Mac through the Online Apple Store.  Those losers are showing the average PC user that a Mac is for programmers, LAN administrators, and writers.  You know who's a loser?  The Dell dude guy.  Geez, you really have messed up standards for losers.



> *I'd like to see this happen actually. It would not drive prices down, but at least the processors would be released faster. The way I see it, by the time Apple gets to 1.5 GHz, the PC will already be at 5 GHz. The average PC user does not give a shit about the Megahertz Myth nor the CISC architecture. All they know is that 5 GHz is a pretty high number.*



That's because the average PC user is uneducated about most computer stuff.  If Apple's push with their "Real People" campaign is successful, which it is by early indications, hopefully PC users will become more educated, and will be able to make more informed decisions, and they will realize that 5 GHz means nothing, especially with such a closed, proprietary, ugly and in-your-face operating system as Windows.

Unfortunately, people like you feel the need to perpetuate propaganda about Windows and Mac in order to help Microsoft maintain its market share.


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## azosx (Jun 19, 2002)

> 1) They strive to maintain VERY healthy profit margins. Apple has around a 25%-30% gross profit margin, which is outstanding for the computer market. By contrast, Dell hardly makes a profit on each computer unit they sell, and certainly not up in the high 20%s.



Apple is trying to supply a computer to the market at an outrageous price compared to most PCs that most people don't have an additional need for over a PC.  Hence, low demand and only 5% market share.  You're right, Dell doesn't make 25-30% profit of ever every computer sold, but consider this for a moment.

Lets say Apple sells 5 out of every 100 computers, this reflects their 5% market share.  To make this simple, every computer they sell costs $100 and they make $25 profit from it for a total of $125 profit, a 25% gross profit margin.

Now lets say Apple decides to lower their prices to compete with PCs.  Their market share grows to 20% but they're only making 10% profit on every system sold.  Are they in trouble?  No.  20 computers at $10 profit a computer is $200.  Apple was able to gain market share and make $75 additional profit as well.





> 2) Apple uses very high quality parts to ensure that the machine doesn't break down as often as your run-of-the-mill PC. This makes for a better experience, and less time and money spent in the long run.



I don't know.  I've never seen statistics to suggest Macs last longer than PCs or break down less frequently.  I know Apple's warranty is considered weak compared to other computer companies.  You'd think if they were so much more reliable, they'd offer more to the end user and still be money ahead.  I think the problem is though, will all the fancy design Apple puts into their products, it becomes rather costly for them to fix something if a problem should arise.



> 3) Apple has high quality design, and uses some things that the average PC maker doesn't use. Unusual cases (especially given something like the iMac), flat-panel screens, 2 FireWire ports standard, built-in wireless antennas (even if you don't have an Airport card), and some proprietary ports, like the Apple Pro Speaker ports and the Apple Display Connectors.



I disagree to some extent.  Other than the processor, the inside of a Mac is almost identical to an average consumer PC.  IBM hard drives, NVIDIA graphics cards, matsushita optical drives and so on.  Is the sound on the motherboard?  If so, that should save some money.  The cost of soldering on 1 or 100 USB or FireWire ports is the difference of about 30c a port in materials.  I don't understand the concept of Airport in desktop machines.  Do people actually carry their desktop around the room with them?  As for in laptops, 30ft of roaming from the base station really isn't all that great.  Other wireless solutions can get your 300ft or more from the base.  I don't understand why Apple shipped their new PB with DVI and not ADC.  They didn't even enclude a DVI to ADC adapter.  You can buy it thought for $150. 

Rather than stylish design being their focal point when designing a computer, perhaps Apple should focus on cost effectiveness and durability.  The PowerBook G4 is great, but despite being made of industrial strength titanium, is still rather fragile compared to other notebooks.  The same can be said for other Apple products as well.

And yes, being told I am "unproductive" using "a horrid little machine" that makes me 6 figures anually is an insult.  Hey, it runs just fine for me, just because you had a bad experience, why should I switch?  Show me what the hardware can do, show me the OS and all the software that runs on it.  Show me anything but don't just tell me my PC sucks.  Some PC users love their computer as much as some Mac users such as yourself do.  I don't expect you to understand this, being Mac-centric, looking from the inside out.  Looking from the outside in is an entirely different picture.  Those commercials are geared towards Mac users, who for some reason think if you're not using a Mac, you're commiting a crime to humanity.  What if all the big PC companies ran anti-Mac ads?  How would you feel?  All Apple's new ad campaign is is anti-PC/Windows BS disguised as stories by "real people".


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## xaqintosh (Jun 19, 2002)

> wrong zak - the mac-chine is a mac, it is made by a company called apple. It's called mac os because it is an os for a mac mac-chine.



ok, too against one, you win. I was wrong


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## hulkaros (Jun 19, 2002)

Any loser who thinks that any PC is better than ANY mac he simply wants to be flamed! So here I flame him on:
Any PC luser (aka loser but NOT user) can take every GHz, RAM &, HD sizes and stick 'em where the sun does not shine! With their dumb attitude and mindset they driving technology back in the dark ages Floppies, RS232, PS/2, 32 bit PCIs and other ancient technologies they hold real technology companies back: Firewire for example just started to appear in PCs while they waited USB2 to appear when Apple is just about any time in releasing Firewire2 Windows and its software is plain garbage and create a wall between the user and the things he wants to create/use.

Anyways, I've been a PC loser (not just user) for MANY years up until December of 2001 when I bought my PowerMac, which kicks ass and I found out that it is better than ANY PC for ANY kind of work    and guess what: It took me only half an hour to find out that it can let me work as I want to and not the other way around

Also, one other thing that a PC loser must understand is that we the Mac users know for SURE that:
-His PC crashes with even Windows Xtra Pain (only Windows 2000 server is ok on crashes/hours of usage ratio)
-His PC apps are no match for iApps and in general Mac apps (sputnix vs agsatellite, FCPro vs ?, OmniWeb/Chimera vs ? and the list can go on and on)
-His PC Operating Systems installation times are MORE than half an hour long on even the most powerful PCs while ours is just 15 minutes long
-His apps/games installations procedures are pointless and take too much of our free but expensive time
-His PC requires MUCH more money in any given period of its usage

Oh, damn all this: We, the Mac people know for sure that a PC is for tasteless losers who dance on the beat that M$ et al plays at

Mac is for creation, PC is for destruction!

Mac hardware works as one with its software whereas PC works in the mysterious ways of its CPU, RAM, HD, GPU, CD, OS, APPS, etc.
ALL of Mac OS X, Mac X apps and Mac hardware for X have half of the problems that M$ describes ONLY for its Windows Xtra Pain at their Website

¡NUFF SAID PC losers and now go and get a life or even better get a Mac


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## azosx (Jun 19, 2002)

Congrats hulkaros.  You are the first person to totally flame-out on this thread.  Your little rant deserves no further discussion because narrow minded people such as yourself are unable to hold intelligent debates.  You are nothing more than an embarrasment to the Mac community and make PC users such as myself shake their head and wonder why.


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## Annihilatus (Jun 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by simX _
> *Unfortunately, people like you feel the need to perpetuate propaganda about Windows and Mac in order to help Microsoft maintain its market share. *



You really are an instigator aren't you? 

If you knew me, you'd know that I'm very much for the MAc. I'm just against bigots like you who think Apple is perfect and can do no wrong. I also hate people who are anti-XP when there's nothing really wrong with it and refuse to believe anything on the PC can possibility be good.

I'd say more but I'm at work.

Andre


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## simX (Jun 19, 2002)

I never said that the PC was not good for anything, but I was battling the supposition that you were implying that the Mac is good for only newbies.

If you like Windows, good for you.  But there are many out there who like Mac.  There are also many out there who are ignorant about the Mac and who are afraid to touch one because of the perceived incompatibility with Windows computers.

What I want is for computer users to be educated.  I want them to know about the iApps on the Macintosh.  I want them to know that megahertz isn't everything.  I want them to know that the Macintosh is cheaper in the long run.  I want them to know that the Macintosh is easy to use.

Only THEN will they be able to make an informed decision, and will I let them go to Windows.  But, Annihilatus, you seem to be perpetuating the opposite of the above ideal, and that is why I am arguing against your seemingly ignorant stance.  Furthermore, some of your arguments seem to not be well thought out, like your argument to move Mac OS X to the x86 processor platform.  I will reiterate that this is unfeasible and unreasonable, and there's no denying that.

You know the reason why it seems that Mac users think Apple can do no wrong?  Because if it did make bad decisions, Apple would go out of business.  Apple doesn't have the luxury to make bad decisions.  They do make the occasional bad mistake, like introducing the G4 cube  that had little market and turned out to be mostly a waste of time (even though I bought one myself).  But basically all of Apple's decisions are right on target because they must be.

On the other hand, Microsoft has plenty of room to make bad decisions, and makes many unethical decisions too.  Again, though, Annihilatus, you seem to perpetuate these decisions, by defending them by saying they are part of "American history".  This is where I get disgusted, and why I feel I have to argue against your statements.


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## Annihilatus (Jun 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by hulkaros _
> *Any loser who thinks that any PC is better than ANY mac he simply wants to be flamed! So here I flame him on:
> Any PC luser (aka loser but NOT user) can take every GHz, RAM &, HD sizes and stick 'em where the sun does not shine! With their dumb attitude and mindset they driving technology back in the dark ages Floppies, RS232, PS/2, 32 bit PCIs and other ancient technologies they hold real technology companies back: Firewire for example just started to appear in PCs while they waited USB2 to appear when Apple is just about any time in releasing Firewire2 Windows and its software is plain garbage and create a wall between the user and the things he wants to create/use.
> *



I use a PC and I guarantee you that my SoundBlaster Live sounds better than your internal 10$ sound system, I guarantee you that my Microsoft Natural Keyboard is more functional and sturdy than your Mac Keyboard and I guarantee you that the refresh rate, max resolution and quality of my 21 inch monitor is better than what your Mac has. Why do I have all of these quality pieces? Because I had money left from buying my PC that would have gone into buying a less-impressive Mac, and because I chose my pieces rather than entertaining whatever some company threw at me. Hence I have the computer you wish you had.



> *Also, one other thing that a PC loser must understand is that we the Mac users know for SURE that:
> -His PC crashes with even Windows Xtra Pain (only Windows 2000 server is ok on crashes/hours of usage ratio)*



Frankly, XP doesn't crash on me. Stop making generalizations.



> *-His PC apps are no match for iApps and in general Mac apps (sputnix vs agsatellite, FCPro vs ?, OmniWeb/Chimera vs ? and the list can go on and on)*



I dunno but there isn't just AGSatellite on the PC, you can choose from a number of decent music search engines. Again, stop focusing on one aspect and generalizing. Besides, IE kicks the ass of Chimera and OmniWeb for the simple reason that most of the web pages on the Internet are designed explicitly for IE. You can't beat that.



> *-His PC Operating Systems installation times are MORE than half an hour long on even the most powerful PCs while ours is just 15 minutes long*



Wow this is really a factor considering an installation happens just once and in most cases, the PC users themselves never experienced it.



> *-His apps/games installations procedures are pointless and take too much of our free but expensive time*



What the hell does this even mean? 



> *-His PC requires MUCH more money in any given period of its usage*



My PC cost me around 3000$ canadian with a graphics tablet, 21 inch monitor, laser printer, CD-Writer, DVD-ROM and quality parts that are upgradeable. I'd need another 2000$ to get the same out of a G4. 



> *Oh, damn all this: We, the Mac people know for sure that a PC is for tasteless losers who dance on the beat that M$ et al plays at*



What if you're using BeOS or Linux?



> *Mac is for creation, PC is for destruction!*



This is too easy. Create all the Macs you want, the power of our PC's will obliterate them.

Look at it this way. PC users have the decency to look at the other platform and appreciate it for its strengths and likes to discuss that and its weaknesses while bringing up valid points. Mac users tend to flame at the first opportunity they get.

I do realize that I'm generalizing here, but your entire message was a generalization so I figured I'd enter your playing field. 

Once again, I love Macs, but there are issues with it just as there are with the PC. Simply put, the issues are different.

Andre


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## Annihilatus (Jun 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by simX _
> *I never said that the PC was not good for anything, but I was battling the supposition that you were implying that the Mac is good for only newbies.*


*

You're absolutely right here and I apologize. What I meant to emphasize was the fact that if I were faced with a newbie, as I have been times before, I would direct him to the Mac before the PC simply because it is a more user-friendly experience initially.

[QUOTEIf you like Windows, good for you.  But there are many out there who like Mac.  There are also many out there who are ignorant about the Mac and who are afraid to touch one because of the perceived incompatibility with Windows computers.[/QUOTE]

Well, it IS incompatible when you think about it. It's not like you can go into any computer store and just buy any video card and any piece of software and just stick it in. I dunno what it's like in the US, but in Canada there are 1000 PC stores to every Mac store. In Montreal, there are two chains called Microserv and BMac that sell Macs. That's pretty much it. FutureShop and CompuSmart, considered the largest chains here, don't sell them any longer. Let's just say the Mac world in Canada is just impulse-purchase-friendly since you really have to travel if you want to buy something for your Mac.




What I want is for computer users to be educated.  I want them to know about the iApps on the Macintosh.  I want them to know that megahertz isn't everything.  I want them to know that the Macintosh is cheaper in the long run.  I want them to know that the Macintosh is easy to use.

Click to expand...


I work with PC users almost exclusively and just about every one of them stresses how easy the Mac is to use. However, they also emphasize that each new Windows release truly is getting better (except Millennium) and the PC is becoming a nicer platform. With Win98, there was no competition. Mac truly WAS better. But ever since 2000 came out and now with XP, you have the stability and operation PC users have looked for for years. There is no question XP doesn't look as good as Mac OS X, in fact I find this OS downright ugly. However, the interface is extremely convenient, the way to force quit applications hasn't changed since 1995 and it is VERY VERY customizeable (I mean when you can get a program that auto-changes your wallpaper, an email program that auto-alerts you of new mail with flash animations and first dibs on any new search engine, you're not in a bad position no matter what anyone says).




Only THEN will they be able to make an informed decision, and will I let them go to Windows.  But, Annihilatus, you seem to be perpetuating the opposite of the above ideal, and that is why I am arguing against your seemingly ignorant stance.  Furthermore, some of your arguments seem to not be well thought out, like your argument to move Mac OS X to the x86 processor platform.  I will reiterate that this is unfeasible and unreasonable, and there's no denying that.

Click to expand...


It is feasible because the core of the Mac OS X already exists on the PC. All that needs to be done is that the interface needs to be migrated. Of course, Apple would have to change OS X drastically to support the numerous choices of video cards, sound cards, network cards and everything else the PC has, but such a task IS possible (XP detects a lot of devices automatically, I know Apple can do it too).




You know the reason why it seems that Mac users think Apple can do no wrong?  Because if it did make bad decisions, Apple would go out of business.  Apple doesn't have the luxury to make bad decisions.  They do make the occasional bad mistake, like introducing the G4 cube  that had little market and turned out to be mostly a waste of time (even though I bought one myself).  But basically all of Apple's decisions are right on target because they must be.

Click to expand...


I absolutely agree with you here and simply have to look at the many mistakes Microsoft has made in the past to show that Apple, in general, has a better track record. However, the fact remains that Apple does indeed make mistakes. Furthermore, it should be noted that the ways for Apple to improve its market share EXISTS and are feasible.




On the other hand, Microsoft has plenty of room to make bad decisions, and makes many unethical decisions too.  Again, though, Annihilatus, you seem to perpetuate these decisions, by defending them by saying they are part of "American history".  This is where I get disgusted, and why I feel I have to argue against your statements. 

Click to expand...


What I was trying to insinuate is that it would be hypocritical to say that Microsoft is a horrible company and should be punished because Microsoft was created by taking full advantage of the American political and economical system. Are you ready to say that the American political and economical system is flawless? I don't believe so. Its flaws are what allowed Microsoft to get as far as it did in so little time. They didn't achieve a monopoly by making illegal moves, they made a monopoly by making ALLEGED illegal moves. Microsoft's success has simply alerted Americans to the fact that there ARE problems, people ARE taking advantage of them and getting away with it.

I mean let's face it. Microsoft stole the GUI from Apple, did they get punished? Hardly. Microsoft DID force people to use IE, did they get punished? Hell no. Microsoft IS forcing people to use OE and MSN Messenger, will it be punished? Probably not. Frankly, they'll get a slap on the wrist.

With that said, is it really Microsoft that is being horrible or is it the government, that refuses to do anything about it?

Andre*


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## xaqintosh (Jun 19, 2002)

> I mean let's face it. Microsoft stole the GUI from Apple, did they get punished? Hardly. Microsoft DID force people to use IE, did they get punished? Hell no. Microsoft IS forcing people to use OE and MSN Messenger, will it be punished? Probably not. Frankly, they'll get a slap on the wrist.
> 
> With that said, is it really Microsoft that is being horrible or is it the government, that refuses to do anything about it?



even if the government _is_ being horrible, that doesn't make Microsoft any less horrible, and just because one organization does something wrong and gets away with it, should all the others also?


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## Annihilatus (Jun 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by xaqintosh _
> *
> 
> even if the government is being horrible, that doesn't make Microsoft any less horrible, and just because one organization does something wrong and gets away with it, should all the others also? *



I suppose you're right, but all of this can and should be stopped. I like Windows but I'd like to have the choice to remove Outlook Express and Internet Explorer (even though I probably wouldn't).

Andre


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## ~~NeYo~~ (Jun 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by simX _
> *2) Neyo: You should be given a cease-and-desist order straight from Apple for what you're doing. We've discussed it to death in other threads, I know, but you're basically making Windows XP look exactly like Mac OS X, and Apple has the right to protect its intellectual property. One of the users in here even mistook it for OmniWeb running in OS X.
> 
> Actually, I question whether that is even Windows XP at all. But I digress. *



Well, For someone to not notice its NOT X, is merely a compliment on my behalf! i now have Both Aqua and Metallic mastered Pretty well, with Shell32's in "snow, Graphite and Aqua" done by me! it all looks Superb! After a GREAT deal of effort and time, but it works for me, i find it much harder, to use Windows XP, now in its "Raw Form" than i do, with my Finder Bar, Dock and Left Hand Window Controlled themes! 

On a Personal note, What Can apple do?! At the most, feel flattered?! 

NeYo


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## Javintosh (Jun 19, 2002)

Annihilatus:

About the hardware issue. I agree that you can't go down the street and buy hardware for the Mac like you can for the PC....

Then again, even if I used a PC, I would not go down the street to get gouged. I just bought a 120GB HD. I went to pricewatch, searched for 120GB HDDs and bought from the cheapest person on the list (that met my desired specs).  I don't think you'll find a 7200RPM 120GB HDD for $150 (and free shipping and no sales tax) at any brick and mortar store. 

Pricewatch.com, not the local store, is my first stop when looking for hardware. If I need something that's Mac-only, like my SoundSticks (which I looove), I go to Pricemac.com. I got my Soundsticks for $150 (vs $200) by looking there. The shipping cost was roughly in line with taxes.

As for hardware upgradeability. I kept my last computer for 3 years. After this I installed a CPU card (bringing me up to 266Mhz G3) and used it for another 3 years. 

I have a new 677Mhz G4. I transfered *all* of my PCI cards from the old computer to the new one. Everything worked flawlessly under OS 9. UnderOSX all but one card works (the manufacturer has not made drivers). In addition to this I transfered an external HDD and an external CD ROM drive. I also transfered by trackball (after buying an adapter), the remote control for my computer, the graphics tablet and all of the other crap I had connected to the computer. None of this was a problem under OS 9. UnderOS X, drivers took a little while, but all devices are working.

The only thing I ditched was my old scanner. I wanted a faster scanner, so i got a firewire scanner.

Javier
BTW>Mac keyboards *are* by an large better. My 6 year old keyboard on my previous computer worked as good on the last day I used it as it did on the first day. Also, when I use a PC keyboard (maybe it's the crap my employer buys), they always feel cheap. I currently have Dell's "QuickKey" keyboards at work. They are the loudest of all the computers I have setup. I've used Compaq's keyboards (and Sony's and Packard Bells, but that last one is not a fair comparison => ). They just seem rickety. The only keyboards that I would rate as comparable to Apple's keyboards would be Suns. I have a FireStar 880 and a SlowBlade => (SunBlade) and both keyboards are impressive.

PC keyboards (at least the ones that come with your computer) seem to be an afterthought.


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## simX (Jun 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Annihilatus _
> *Well, it IS incompatible when you think about it. It's not like you can go into any computer store and just buy any video card and any piece of software and just stick it in. I dunno what it's like in the US, but in Canada there are 1000 PC stores to every Mac store. In Montreal, there are two chains called Microserv and BMac that sell Macs. That's pretty much it. FutureShop and CompuSmart, considered the largest chains here, don't sell them any longer. Let's just say the Mac world in Canada is just impulse-purchase-friendly since you really have to travel if you want to buy something for your Mac.*



There are plenty of video cards for the Mac from nVidia and ATI.  Take your pick: Radeon 8500, Radeon 7500, nVidia GeForce 4 Ti, etc, etc.  And yes, the iMac, iBook, PowerBook, and eMac are all unupgradable, but then if you wanted to upgrade, you would buy a PowerMac, which would only set you back $1600 for a very powerful machine.  If you don't want an Apple flat-panel display, I'm sure you can find a cheap CRT monitor for under $300 to complement that PowerMac.



> *I work with PC users almost exclusively and just about every one of them stresses how easy the Mac is to use. However, they also emphasize that each new Windows release truly is getting better (except Millennium) and the PC is becoming a nicer platform. With Win98, there was no competition. Mac truly WAS better. But ever since 2000 came out and now with XP, you have the stability and operation PC users have looked for for years. There is no question XP doesn't look as good as Mac OS X, in fact I find this OS downright ugly. However, the interface is extremely convenient, the way to force quit applications hasn't changed since 1995 and it is VERY VERY customizeable (I mean when you can get a program that auto-changes your wallpaper, an email program that auto-alerts you of new mail with flash animations and first dibs on any new search engine, you're not in a bad position no matter what anyone says).*



oooOOOooo, you have a program that auto-changes your wallpaper, an e-mail program that auto-alerts you, and "dibs on any new search engine", whatever that's supposed to mean.  If you haven't figured out that the Mac has a similar auto-changer, an out-of-the-box e-mail program that alerts you of new mail with a little icon and a sound (give me a break  I don't need a flash animation), and since a search engine is accessible to anyone on the internet, I frankly don't see your point.

On the other hand, I challenge you to find a program as easy as iMovie to make movies.  I challenge you to find a program as easy as iTunes to burn CDs, organize MP3s, and manage MP3s on an MP3 player.  I challenge you to find a program as easy as iDVD to burn DVDs, with a sub-$2000 system.  I challenge you to find a program as easy as iPhoto to download, organize and share photos.  I challenge you to find a program as easy, inexpensive, and powerful as Final Cut Pro for making professional movies.  I challenge you to find a program as easy as DVD Studio Pro to make professional DVDs.  I challenge you to find FREE developer tools as easy as Project Builder and Interface Builder to make programs  even Java applications.  I challenge you to find a shareware app as easy, as clean, and as powerful as Proteus to do instant messaging on multiple IM services.  I challenge you to find a program as incredibly useful as Watson to get useful web information such as movie listings, TV listings, package tracking, all without the use of a web browser.  I challenge you to show me how Windows can leverage the same power that a UNIX operating system can while retaining the simplicity of Mac OS X.

I'll bet you the only challenge you might live up to is finding a program similar to iTunes.  Even with that you might fail.

I think my point is made clear.



> *It is feasible because the core of the Mac OS X already exists on the PC. All that needs to be done is that the interface needs to be migrated. Of course, Apple would have to change OS X drastically to support the numerous choices of video cards, sound cards, network cards and everything else the PC has, but such a task IS possible (XP detects a lot of devices automatically, I know Apple can do it too).*



"All that needs to be done"?  Heh, first of all, that's an enormous task.  Second of all, all of the applications that currently run on Mac OS X would break with the x86 version, requiring developers to do ANOTHER rewrite of their programs after updating them to Carbon to run in Mac OS X.  I doubt Apple could convince their developers to do that.  Thirdly, the task of supporting all the numerous choices of video cards, sound cards, network cards, etc. is possible, but very costly and in itself is an enormous task.  And it would cause all hell to break loose with Apple's tech support.

Maybe you don't get it, but Apple will never port Mac OS X to the x86 platform and release it unless Motorola goes out of business and nobody picks up the PowerPC assets, which has about 0.01% chance of happening.



> *I absolutely agree with you here and simply have to look at the many mistakes Microsoft has made in the past to show that Apple, in general, has a better track record. However, the fact remains that Apple does indeed make mistakes. Furthermore, it should be noted that the ways for Apple to improve its market share EXISTS and are feasible.*



And Apple is already taking steps to increase its market share.  It's successfully done the impossible: made a UNIX operating system easy to use, and it is even, by any means, easier than Mac OS 9 which was not based on UNIX.  That is quite a task, but it pays off: Apple now has the best development platform, hands down.  I can, with free developer tools, make Cocoa applications written in Objective-C (which are the easiest kind of applications to create).  But I could make AppleScript applications if I'm more comfortable with that, or Java applications, or applications written in regular C.  And I could simply make an application that is a GUI wrapper for a powerful UNIX tool.  I doubt any Windows developer can say that he can do all that on Windows... in his right mind, anyway.

Then there's the ease of use and the power of the operating system itself, not to mention all the apps that lack Windows substitutes that are all powerful even while being easy to use.  For a list of Mac programs that lack Windows substitutes, read above.



> *What I was trying to insinuate is that it would be hypocritical to say that Microsoft is a horrible company and should be punished because Microsoft was created by taking full advantage of the American political and economical system. Are you ready to say that the American political and economical system is flawless? I don't believe so. Its flaws are what allowed Microsoft to get as far as it did in so little time. They didn't achieve a monopoly by making illegal moves, they made a monopoly by making ALLEGED illegal moves. Microsoft's success has simply alerted Americans to the fact that there ARE problems, people ARE taking advantage of them and getting away with it.*




Hmm, another hypocritical statement.  I didn't say our political and economical system is flawless.  I never did.  And I never will.  But as far as I know, the Supreme Court of the United States affirmed that Microsoft MADE ILLEGAL MOVES, and as far as I know, there's no way to dispute that decision, short of getting some judge to make a competing decision in a future case.

So, no, Microsoft didn't make ALLEGED illegal moves, they made illegal moves, according to the American justice system.



> *I mean let's face it. Microsoft stole the GUI from Apple, did they get punished? Hardly. Microsoft DID force people to use IE, did they get punished? Hell no. Microsoft IS forcing people to use OE and MSN Messenger, will it be punished? Probably not. Frankly, they'll get a slap on the wrist.
> 
> With that said, is it really Microsoft that is being horrible or is it the government, that refuses to do anything about it?*



Again, you dismiss Microsoft's tactics as trivial, and basically say that they are acceptable.  MICROSOFT PERFORMED ILLEGAL TACTICS, and they should get punished with more than a slap on the wrist.  It IS Microsoft that is "being horrible", and you can't deny that (well, you could, and you probably will, given your past statements, but that's a whole 'nother topic entirely).  While yes, the government should be doing more than it is, it is STILL Microsoft who is making illegal moves, not the government.

Annihilatus, I think it's YOU who are defending Microsoft, saying they can do no wrong.  But there's one important difference between my defending Apple and you defending Microsoft:

Microsoft actually DID do something wrong.


----------



## Annihilatus (Jun 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Javintosh _
> *PC keyboards (at least the ones that come with your computer) seem to be an afterthought. *



Frankly, I dunno what I'd do without my Microsoft Natural Keyboard with all of the extra buttons like the media player play/stop, the volume control, the email launcher and browser launcher, the my computer launcher and the sleep button. 

But I have to admit I like the fact that the Mac keyboard at work has black keys. I dunno if manufacturers noticed those white keys tend to get dirty.

Andre


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## azosx (Jun 19, 2002)

> On a Personal note, What Can apple do?! At the most, feel flattered?!



Since you are just one person imitating their design and not distributing the source of how you do it or making a profit from it, probably nothing.  If you were to advertise your mod with links to download it in this forum, I'm sure by now Apple would have issued a cease and desist order to you and macosx.com, forcing the removal of all pictures and sources of download.  If perhaps you were outside the US, they would indeed have a harder time but I can guarantee you wouldn't be a part of this forum anymore and any channels by which you tried to distribute your mod would be shutdown.  Apple is very serious about not copying their IP.  Most major US corporations have 10 lawyers for every letter in the alphabet and if they feel you are infringing on them in any way, they can make your life a living hell in less that 24 hours.  See what one major us corporation is doing to this poor guy.  http://www.cheesygraphics.com/castle_hassle_home.html


----------



## Annihilatus (Jun 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by simX _
> *Ooh, you have a program that auto-changes your wallpaper, and an e-mail program that auto-alerts you, and "dibs on any new search engine", whatever that's supposed to mean.  If you haven't figured out that the Mac has a similar auto-changer, an out-of-the-box e-mail program that alerts you of new mail with a little icon and a sound (give me a break  I don't need a flash animation), and since a search engine is accessible to anyone on the internet, I frankly don't see your point.*



I meant things like Kazaa, Morpheus, AudioGalaxy, LimeWire, Napster. They come out on PC first and many of them never make it to the Mac.



> *On the other hand, I challenge you to find a program as easy as iMovie to make movies.  I challenge you to find a program as easy as iTunes to burn CDs, organize MP3s, and manage MP3s on an MP3 player.  I challenge you to find a program as easy as iDVD to burn DVDs, with a sub-$2000 system.  I challenge you to find a program as easy as iPhoto to download, organize and share photos.  I challenge you to find a program as easy, inexpensive, and powerful as Final Cut Pro for making professional movies.  I challenge you to find a program as easy as DVD Studio Pro to make professional DVDs.  I challenge you to find FREE developer tools as easy as Project Builder and Interface Builder to make programs  even Java applications.  I challenge you to find a shareware app as easy, as clean, and as powerful as Proteus to do instant messaging on multiple IM services.  I challenge you to find a program as incredibly useful as Watson to get useful web information such as movie listings, TV listings], package tracking, all without the use of a web browser.  I challenge you to show me how Windows can leverage the same power as a UNIX operating system can as well as the simplicity of Mac OS X.*



Well frankly I don't make DVD movies, rarely burn music CD's except for the occasional MP3 CD to go with my MP3 CD player, I don't download or take that many photos. The only one I can challenge you with, since it's the only one of the above I ever actually do, is the instant messaging client. I think it's already safe to say that the best IM client ever made is Trillian that allows you to have AIM, ICQ, MSN, YIM and IRC in one program. It's small, highly skinnable (you can really change this thing around) and takes very little RAM. It's efficient, extremely compatible and free.



> *I'll bet you the only challenge you might live up to is finding a program similar to iTunes.  Even with that you might fail, though.*



I don't think anyone really uses all of the functions of iTunes anyway. When I want to play MP3 music, Windows Media Player or WinAmp will do that fine. If there's something more that I want, chances are that somewhere in the thousands and thousands of MP3 player software I haven't yet downloaded, something exists that's as good if not better than iTunes.



> *Annihilatus, I think it's YOU who are defending Microsoft, saying they can do no wrong.  But there's one important difference between my defending Apple and you defending Microsoft:*



The thing about you defending the Mac is that it's pointless since I was never attacking it to begin with, I was simply pointing out a few things that I thought were flawed in my attempt to defend the PC.

Andre


----------



## simX (Jun 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Annihilatus _
> *
> 
> I meant things like Kazaa, Morpheus, AudioGalaxy, LimeWire, Napster. They come out on PC first and many of them never make it to the Mac.*



Granted, yes, they came out on the PC first.  But LimeWire, Napster, and AudioGalaxy have all been released on the Mac.  Morpheus has moved to a gnutella server which can be handled by LimeWire, or a nice freeware app called Aquisition (xlife.org).  And then there's Neo, an awesome shadow client for the Kazaa network.  So there's plenty of file-sharing on the Mac.

*



			Well frankly I don't make DVD movies, rarely burn music CD's except for the occasional MP3 CD to go with my MP3 CD player, I don't download or take that many photos. The only one I can challenge you with, since it's the only one of the above I ever actually do, is the instant messaging client. I think it's already safe to say that the best IM client ever made is Trillian that allows you to have AIM, ICQ, MSN, YIM and IRC in one program. It's small, highly skinnable (you can really change this thing around) and takes very little RAM. It's efficient, extremely compatible and free.
		
Click to expand...

*
Heh.  Well I don't need to change my desktop wallpaper every millisecond, and I don't need a Flash animation for notifying me of e-mail.  If those are the only advantages of the Windows platform, it's more stagnant than even *I* thought it was.   

*



			I don't think anyone really uses all of the functions of iTunes anyway. When I want to play MP3 music, Windows Media Player or WinAmp will do that fine. If there's something more that I want, chances are that somewhere in the thousands and thousands of MP3 player software I haven't yet downloaded, something exists that's as good if not better than iTunes.
		
Click to expand...

*
Riiight.  Windows Media Player to play MP3s.  In case you've forgotten, your pet company called Microsoft doesn't want to take two seconds of its time to support open standards.  Oh, but in this instance they were so nice and did  the only catch is you need to pay to get MP3 support in Windows Media Player.

I use all of the functions of iTunes, and to boot, it's very unobtrusive and allows you to control it while keeping it in the background.  I use it to auto-sync my iPod.  It's very useful, and I highly doubt you can find something as useful as iTunes on Windows.



> *The thing about you defending the Mac is that it's pointless since I was never attacking it to begin with, I was simply pointing out a few things that I thought were flawed in my attempt to defend the PC.*



As far as I can tell, you haven't made one single argument that defends the PC by any means.  (Hint: How about mention business software that is not available for the Mac?)  Oh, well, yeah, there's the business software that is not available for the Mac.  Score: Mac - 50, PC - 1.


----------



## Javintosh (Jun 19, 2002)

Annihilatus:

now that you mention those lauch buttons. I just realized that we had those under OS 9 and they are gone. My brother-in-law's iBook even came with a sheet of raised white/translucent rubber-like icon stickers. You'd assign the F keys to do certain functions (volume control, brightness and contrast or to launch any app) and then afix the sticker you felt matched the function on the space above the function key.

They provides 3-4x as many stickers as you'd ever need.

I did not realize this was gone until now. I guess I did not use it much.  

Come to think of it I have not really needed any key above and beyond the 3 volume keys and the CD eject key (which also pulls the CD in if it is out) that come with the standard apple keyboard. If you hold down the control key, you can use the eject key to sleep/shutdown/restart the computer.

A play/pause key might be nice, but if I am in front of the computer all iTunes controls can be used on a zoomed in window without switching your current app.

Of course, if I am not in front of the computer, I use the remote control to control all iTunes functions. I even setup the remote control for webTV style browsing with IE, but I stopped using it after a while. that remote control is very cool though. one of these days I'll figure out how to use an universal remote on my mac so I have more than the 17 buttons on the Digital Media Remote.


----------



## Javintosh (Jun 19, 2002)

One thing I shoul say about OSX's mail client. When you get mail, the client changes so you have a red circle on it with a white number. The white number is the number of unread messages.

This is a lot more useful than you'd think at first. In addition to knowing how many new messages there are on the system, if you choose not to read the new mail, you can come back to the computer and determine whether *additional* new email messages have arrived. Sometimes I just open the main email window, look at the subject lines and decide not to read any emails. Later on, I can tell of additional new emails showed up while I was away from the computer.

This is much more useful than a mere animation.


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## Annihilatus (Jun 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by simX _
> *
> 
> Granted, yes, they came out on the PC first.  But LimeWire, Napster, and AudioGalaxy have all been released on the Mac.  Morpheus has moved to a gnutella server which can be handled by LimeWire, or a nice freeware app called Aquisition (xlife.org).  And then there's Neo, an awesome shadow client for the Kazaa network.  So there's plenty of file-sharing on the Mac.*



However, it all first came out on the PC. You admit it, all's well.



> *Heh.  Well I don't need to change my desktop wallpaper every millisecond, and I don't need a Flash animation for notifying me of e-mail.  If those are the only advantages of the Windows platform, it's more stagnant than even I thought it was.   *



First of all, I never said it was the only advantages. In fact, I never called them advantages. Their mention came at a point when I was talking about customization on the PC and how much I like it. In that remark though, you have proven to me that ****** and if you represent the Mac world in any way, I really feel sorry for it.



> *As far as I can tell, you haven't made one single argument that defends the PC by any means.  (Hint: How about mention business software that is not available for the Mac?)  Oh, well, yeah, there's the business software that is not available for the Mac.  Score: Mac - 50, PC - 1. *



I was actually writing out a list of advantages of the PC over the Mac, most of which are obvious and some of which you'd probably not comprehend. Since I frankly don't want you to respond to me anymore, I deleted them mid-way. Your attitude repulses me and reminds me of why I chose to stay away from the Mac a while back. My family is a bunch of fanatical Catholics, their fanaticism annoys me to death. You, just like they, are a fanatic and once again, if you are a representation of the Mac community, I'd rather stay away.

Andre


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## Annihilatus (Jun 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Javintosh _
> *One thing I shoul say about OSX's mail client. When you get mail, the client changes so you have a red circle on it with a white number. The white number is the number of unread messages.
> 
> This is a lot more useful than you'd think at first. In addition to knowing how many new messages there are on the system, if you choose not to read the new mail, you can come back to the computer and determine whether *additional* new email messages have arrived. Sometimes I just open the main email window, look at the subject lines and decide not to read any emails. Later on, I can tell of additional new emails showed up while I was away from the computer.
> ...



This I frankly like and I wish Outlook Express had it. Considering Microsoft is trying to ram the program down our throats by being integrated into Windows XP, I figure they can at least have it automatically check and count mail. Of course, there are tons of free utilities out there that will do the job for you, but it would be nice to have it out of the box.

On the other hand, MacOSX works on top of BSD and from what I remember, BSD and Linux both, in Console mode at least, alert you of new mail and in fact count it at logon. Nice to see that Apple saw the need for such an option.

Andre


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## simX (Jun 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Annihilatus _
> *Your attitude repulses me and reminds me of why I chose to stay away from the Mac a while back. My family is a bunch of fanatical Catholics, their fanaticism annoys me to death. You, just like they, are a fanatic and once again, if you are a representation of the Mac community, I'd rather stay away.*



And your fanaticism about Microsoft repulses me as well  you say that it's the government's fault that Microsoft is performing illegal tactics.  This annoys me to death.  But I'm willing to discuss it, if you'd like.

Unfortunately, it seems like you're a representation of the PC community, and I think a fanaticism about a great computer company is much better than a fanaticism about an illegal monopoly who tries to stifle competition.

Whatever floats your boat, I guess.


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## Annihilatus (Jun 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by simX _
> *
> 
> And your fanaticism about Microsoft repulses me as well  you say that it's the government's fault that Microsoft is performing illegal tactics.  This annoys me to death.  But I'm willing to discuss it, if you'd like.
> ...



I'm not a fanatic about Microsoft, but I do like a few of their products. I love Internet Explorer (but I admit to using Banner Zapper to remove popups and I also think Mozilla is great), I love Outlook Express despite the virus threats, I love Microsoft Frontpage, I love Microsoft Office, I love Microsoft Windows 2000 and I love Windows XP.

But that's just me, I'm a pisces. I tend to love people and things despite their faults. In fact, I share the same birthday as Steve Jobs. Isn't that just curious?

Andre


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## simX (Jun 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Annihilatus _
> *I'm not a fanatic about Microsoft, but I do like a few of their products. I love Internet Explorer (but I admit to using Banner Zapper to remove popups and I also think Mozilla is great), I love Outlook Express despite the virus threats, I love Microsoft Frontpage, I love Microsoft Office, I love Microsoft Windows 2000 and I love Windows XP.
> 
> But that's just me, I'm a pisces. I tend to love people and things despite their faults. In fact, I share the same birthday as Steve Jobs. Isn't that just curious?*



Microsoft does make some good products, like Microsoft Office X, Internet Explorer, Outlook Express (although I've migrated to Mail.app) and the IntelliMouse Explorer.

That doesn't excuse the fact that Microsoft is performing illegal tactics, though, does it?

So your birthday is February 22, if I remember correctly.  Correct?  That is curious, though.


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## Annihilatus (Jun 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by simX _
> *
> 
> Microsoft does make some good products, like Microsoft Office X, Internet Explorer, Outlook Express (although I've migrated to Mail.app) and the IntelliMouse Explorer.
> ...



No, of course nothing excuses Microsoft performing illegal tactics. I'm just trying to turn a negative into a positive. It's my way of thinking.

My birthday is February 24th actually. What I find funny actually is while I was watching Pirates of Silicon Valley, I was with my friend who is in every single way a carbon copy of Steve Wozniak. The entire time I was watching the movie, I kept thinking that Jobs was one hell of a jerk and damn mean to his employees. When the movie was over, I told my friend 'man, I bet you Jobs is an Aries, he's an uncontrollable monster!'

When I found out I was born on the same day, I had the shock of my life but it suddenly made sense. I can't imagine myself acting differently than Jobs in any respect if I was in his position. However, I'm at the other end and I wish he'd make a few small modifications.

Andre


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## edX (Jun 20, 2002)

Annihilatus - you will find that one of your recent posts has been edited. Calling names will not be tolerated on this site. Consider yourself warned. Further incidents will result in loss of site membership. 

If you have any questions about this, feel free to PM me.


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## Annihilatus (Jun 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ed Spruiell _
> *Annihilatus - you will find that one of your recent posts has been edited. Calling names will not be tolerated on this site. Consider yourself warned. Further incidents will result in loss of site membership.
> 
> If you have any questions about this, feel free to PM me. *



I understand and see no reason not to comply.

Andre


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## lonny (Jun 20, 2002)

Annihilatus,


> When I want to play MP3 music, Windows Media Player or WinAmp will do that fine.



You see? It's a matter of sensitivity. It's a matter of aestethics and feelings. I could never use that app. IMO WMP is an horrible looking thing. It's like saying: "If I have to go shopping downtown I can just drive my van". Fair enough. I'd rather drive an Audi TT and feel cool.


> Well frankly I don't make DVD movies, rarely burn music CD's except for the occasional MP3 CD to go with my MP3 CD player, I don't download or take that many photos.



Makes me think that you're not much of an arts person. Of course Mac doesn't appeal to you. And with this I'm not saying Macs are for artists only. But for people with a different sensitivity. Apparently we are about 5% of the world population.

And this is leaving aside functionality issues, which have already been discussed.

Lastly let me just add that I feel unconfortable supportin a company doing illegal practices... but maybe that's just me.


----------



## Annihilatus (Jun 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by lonny _
> *You see? It's a matter of sensitivity. It's a matter of aestethics and feelings. I could never use that app. IMO WMP is an horrible looking thing. It's like saying: "If I have to go shopping downtown I can just drive my van". Fair enough. I'd rather drive an Audi TT and feel cool.*



I can see that point of view. All I can say is that it's the music that will entertain me, not the interface. Whether the program I'm running is good looking matters not to me since it's the song I'm trying to listen to. Either way though, Windows Media Player is skinnable and you can change the look as you could with WinAmp or Sonique. There's a choice, you don't have to just keep it as it is.



> *Makes me think that you're not much of an arts person. Of course Mac doesn't appeal to you. And with this I'm not saying Macs are for artists only. But for people with a different sensitivity. Apparently we are about 5% of the world population.*



Actually, I AM an arts person. I have been all of my life. Back in the day I used to make pixel art, now I use a graphics tablet. I draw and write, it's my thing. I will admit that most artists use Macs, but it's not like using a PC to do the task is impossible. Personally, I like the fact that I can maximize the screen on the PC so I can see the entire drawing and I can see it at a high resolution. This way I always know what the product looks like. The fact that the Mac doesn't totally maximize the screen indeed bugs me.



> *
> Lastly let me just add that I feel unconfortable supportin a company doing illegal practices... but maybe that's just me. *



I can totally understand that and frankly I wouldn't want to support the company if I had an Apple either. However the company's products ARE very good and their operating system IS getting good. It's not up to me to judge what they did as I am not a lawyer nor a priest (in fact I'm no longer a Catholic, they're too judgemental). MY only concern is whether the program offered has everything that I want and at a good price. Microsoft has everything that I want and as long as I buy the Educational version of any of their programs, at a good price too (I'm a Student as it is but I'll be a teacher soon so I'll always benefit from better prices).

Andre


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## lonny (Jun 20, 2002)

> It's not up to me to judge what they did as I am not a lawyer nor a priest



No, you're not. But that doesn't mean you have to passively support illegal (criminal?) practices. if you don't agree on this point, sorry but I won't waste my time with you any longer.



> MY only concern is whether the program offered has everything that I want and at a good price. Microsoft has everything that I want ... at a good price too



Some people can settle down with non-attractive and annoying girlfriends... which is fine if you just want sex and some company.
Plus the price is right, i.e. you don't have to look hard for them.

Personally I'd only settle down with a supermodel with incredible brains, and I'm willing to look hard until I find one. Is it worth it?
For me it is.

So, enjoy your Windoze. I could never enjoy that, 'cause I need more. My Mac is a supermodel.

Out of curiosity:
what are PC guys doing hanging out here?


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## Annihilatus (Jun 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by lonny _
> *So, enjoy your Windoze. I could never enjoy that, 'cause I need more. My Mac is a supermodel.*



Well frankly, every time I meet a girl that supposedly has brains that also looks good, she turns out to be a heavy studier. I settled for very smart and generous on the chest side.



> *Out of curiosity:
> what are PC guys doing hanging out here? *



I can't speak for the others, but I'm here because I have a profound interest in the Apple platform and got tired of Windows newsgroups because there are simply too many posts. Whereas the Windows newsgroups are heavily populated and hard to keep up with, macosx.com is cozy.

Andre


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## themacko (Jun 20, 2002)

I have to say, this has gotten quite ridicules.  What a flame-war.


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## Annihilatus (Jun 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by themacko _
> *I have to say, this has gotten quite ridicules.  What a flame-war.  *



My intention was to speak about the platform and bring up a few issues. Obviously, some people think Apple is perfect and won't agree with what I say.

Andre


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## lonny (Jun 20, 2002)

> I have to say, this has gotten quite ridicules



Indeed. I'm outta here.
Enjoy!


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## macguy17 (Jun 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by hulkaros _
> *
> -His apps/games installations procedures are pointless and take too much of our free but expensive time
> *


Hey exactly, me and my friend were going to play Diablo 2 LOD. We both had to reinstall. So I finished my installation, talk to my friend.... Hes at 50% and stuck.
A few hours later? Machine crash. Start over.

It took him almost a week to get diablo 2 installed... no multiplayer.

Finally, after almost 2 weeks he got it all fixed.

hard drive crash

also


> I meant things like Kazaa, Morpheus, AudioGalaxy, LimeWire, Napster. They come out on PC first and many of them never make it to the Mac.


Hmmmm.m.... If I remember correctly, hotline was originially developed for mac. At least the technology behind it was. Not to mention both Carracho and Pitbull Pro, a hotline client with more features, are availible only for mac.


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## hulkaros (Jun 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by azosx _
> *Congrats hulkaros.  You are the first person to totally flame-out on this thread.  Your little rant deserves no further discussion because narrow minded people such as yourself are unable to hold intelligent debates.  You are nothing more than an embarrasment to the Mac community and make PC users such as myself shake their head and wonder why. *



You and your dumb-a$$ PC lusers (aka losers) can wonder all you like this:
Where is your intelligent debate? Is this one:
Your little rant...

Or is this one:
...narrow minded...

Oh, I get it, this is the one:
unable to hold intelligent debates

Naaahhh, must be this:
You are nothing more than an embarrasment to the Mac community...


Yep, I can see now that PC lusers are able to hold intelligent debates...


Get a Mac and then you will get a life *********!


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## ~~NeYo~~ (Jun 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by hulkaros _
> *
> 
> You and your dumb-a$$ PC lusers (aka losers) can wonder all you like this:
> ...



Dude, Jus Shuddup will ya? God, you Just come out with this crap, but where's your reasoning?! Neither X. nor XP are BAD OS's and Hold their own in different ways, and both Feature Little things which Both User groups Desire in the OS they use. X is not the perfect OS, neither is XP, but a little diplomacy kinda helps rather than amount of crap you waste your time Coming out with.

NeYo


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## xaqintosh (Jun 20, 2002)

I second what Neyo said, and I'm a "diehard mac user". So I would never use Windows exclusively, but it is better for some things, and what you (hulkaros) are doing is pointless and makes you sound stupid and immature.


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## hulkaros (Jun 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Annihilatus _
> *
> 
> I use a PC and I guarantee you that my SoundBlaster Live sounds better than your internal 10$ sound system, I guarantee you that my Microsoft Natural Keyboard is more functional and sturdy than your Mac Keyboard and I guarantee you that the refresh rate, max resolution and quality of my 21 inch monitor is better than what your Mac has. Why do I have all of these quality pieces? Because I had money left from buying my PC that would have gone into buying a less-impressive Mac, and because I chose my pieces rather than entertaining whatever some company threw at me. Hence I have the computer you wish you had.
> ...



1. Nope, while I have easily the money to buy double the piece of crap hardware you mentioned above I chose to go with something more advanced: Somehow, I think that your 21" can't beat my 22" Apple Flat technology... Also, I can't see how your SB Live-less can beat my PowerMac G4/867 comboed with a Sony Dolby Prologic system and 5.1 Sony speakers of mine... While I am at it I could easily beat the M$ crap of input devices you got by buying those sweet logitech stuff, but you see I like using my Apple input devices   Also, how many Firewire and USB ports does your PCrap has? Did I mention that mine has 2 Firewire and 6 USB ports? 4, 64 bit PCI slots? 1.5 GB of RAM? Giga-Ethernet? Now, I can here you saying: Hey this costs lots of money! Yes, it does but at least I can have my box running/sleeping/burning DVDs and do circles around your PCrap with ONLY 2 crashes in almost 6 months... Now, can you do that on your Xtra Pain PCrap you have? Regardless what your answer might be I know the truth better than you: I am a PCrap technician (and Mac too) and I fix at least a dozen PCrap boxes per day from hardware failures, software crushing & uninstalling itself and many other mind twisting problems  And yes I earn 90% of my money from repairing M$ PCrap boxes... Oops, I blew it: I uncovered the unofficial M$ earnings technic: Sell OSes and Apps that will mesh with Creative, Intel, Nvidia, hardware and drivers and make people upgrade at least every year or so, just because they are so stupid to find the truth. Or even force your dealers with gorilla tactics to sell upgrades of your new OSes because if they do not do so, next time that they will try order that old version of Windows 2000 Pro they will pay more than ordering the new ADVANCED (my a$$) Xtra Pain Pro...

2. Xtra Pain doesn't crash for you but it crashes on MANY people out there and also it cannot beat the stability of my old Windows 2000 server PCrap box that I could not sell because you see, after 8-9 months of buying that AMD ThunderBird 1200 MHz somehow people do not care for it anymore... And  here I crush your useless point of Xtra Pain's stability: Even M$ knows that it doesn't compare well at stability areas next to Windows 2000 that's why they still don't have a Server version of Xtra Pain out there (anyone who knows about OSs knows that a SOLID OS has a Server version of it's plain version out there: Windows 2000 Server, Linux, Mac OS X, et al 

3. Well, you think that you have a lot of hardware huh? All the PC lusers (aka losers but never users) think the same think   However I don't see you having a DVD-R in your PCrap box, huh? Did I mention that I have one in my G4?

4. As for the money/cost area: Well any new Ferrari costs more than a Honda S200 but if you have the cash and the right taste then you buy a Ferrari: That's what ANY Mac is next to ANY PCrap box! 

5. As for BeOS, isn't it somewhat dead? Linux: Power to the people! But somehow it's apps stink, don't you think? Oh, and if you insist, yes, you can run Linux on Mac  Somehow, you forgot to mention OS/2 Warp, Solaris and other nice OSes, but next to Mac OS X, hmmm...

6. Generalization department: As I previously wrote (you can read, can't you?), ALL of Mac OS X, Mac X apps and Mac hardware for X have half of the problems that M$ describes ONLY for its Windows Xtra Pain at their Website... If this isn't say anything to you or anyone else for that matter then you are a M$ addict and you are falling into the same category that you are trying to put me in: Mac/PC users tend to flame at the first opportunity they get and they do that by using generalizations and other tricks: Using politicians and lawyers writing technics like this kind of stuff: "Once again, I love Macs, but there are issues with it just as there are with the PC. Simply put, the issues are different."

7. Yes, sir you are correct: Simply put Mac is different, in fact so different that you are jealous of its users, its technology, its message to its people: Think different!

8. And yes, get a Mac so that you could get a life 

9. Did I mention that I fix M$ PCrap boxes for a leaving? Now that I am thinking of this: I must be in love with M$ because of them I can buy all of this awesome Mac stuff! Well, at least I sould be, huh? heh-heh-heh? Bwaa-hah-hah


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## hulkaros (Jun 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ~~NeYo~~ _
> *
> 
> Dude, Jus Shuddup will ya? God, you Just come out with this crap, but where's your reasoning?! Neither X. nor XP are BAD OS's and Hold their own in different ways, and both Feature Little things which Both User groups Desire in the OS they use. X is not the perfect OS, neither is XP, but a little diplomacy kinda helps rather than amount of crap you waste your time Coming out with.
> ...



Diplomacy my behind: Anyways, I don't like people saying all these lies about Xtra Pain: It is NOT even on par with Mac OS X and next to Windows 2000 Pro or even better next to Win2k Server is TOTAL crap... At least if you like using PCrap use its better alternatives like the Windows versions I mentioned above... Even M$ knows that Xtra Pain is not up to par with Windows 2000 Server and Pro, especially the Server version and that's why so far they avoid to release a Servers version of Xtra Pain. Or could it be that they cannot make a Server version out of Xtra Pain's technology?

Nope Mac OS X is not perfect but at least runs circles around Xtra Pain 

But really why Xtra Pain is so hot? Does it have more device drivers, apps, legacy support than the previous Windows versions? Nope! Is it faster? Nope! Is it really easier to use? Nope! Is it prettier? Well, if you take out the skins, nope! What about the activation procedure? If people who have more than 2 PCrap boxes (and we all know that most of computer savvy people have more than 2) can they install it on their 3rd computer while not breaking M$ law? Nope! Can you use that old DOS app thay you MUST use for your company? Nope! Can you run that year-old Windows 9x game/app/device? Nope! Then why the hell people say that it is better than the previous Windows versions? Let me say why: Because they cannot admit that they made a bad buying decision or even worst that they didn't decide at all which is what happens for the majority of the PCrap world customers: They walk in a shop and the shop shoves them the Xtra Pain on the brand new PCrap they buy whither they like it or not...

Get a Mac and get a life!


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## hulkaros (Jun 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by xaqintosh _
> *I second what Neyo said, and I'm a "diehard mac user". So I would never use Windows exclusively, but it is better for some things, and what you (hulkaros) are doing is pointless and makes you sound stupid and immature. *



Maybe it is pointless... Maybe it immature... Maybe it is stupid... Maybe it is that I am a nut Macase... But when a PCrap luser (aka loser but never user) likes to say that decided to enjoy the dark side which is that M$ Xtra Pain, it feels to me that I must answer what I feel about it! After all we live in a democratic world where anyone can say/write/ his opinion, isn't it? And you know what? Even criminals in this world think that they are correct and they enjoy what they do: Take that Osama guy for example: He thinks that he is right and he is expressing his beliefes with violence... Do I have to put with such people? Nope! I have to tell them that they are wrong! To put it in a better way:
Do you like Windows? Use the best version of it which is Windows 2000 Pro and/or Windows 2000 Server and I will reply this: Power to you! But NEVER you will here me say that Xtra Pain is the best Windows version out there (hell, even M$ do not make a Server version of it because they know that it is NOT their best OS)... Or you will never make me say that Mac OS X is worst than Xtra Pain or even that they are close in technology levels... Hell, after all said and done this is the truth: I work everyday with ALL of the Windows versions and ALL of the new stuff of PCrap side and you know what? 6 months ago I bought a PowerMac G4 and I regret everyday why I didn't see the truth before: M$-based computers make you work they way the like and NOT the other way around ;( And if that is not enough you pay them to do so! If this in not S&M situation then what is?

Get a Mac and get a life!


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## azosx (Jun 20, 2002)

I'm fairly sure the only people who would use a $ for the letter s and change acronyms like XP into words like "Xtra Pain" are children.  It's pointless to feed into such a person's insecurities about their hardware and software, let alone themselves.  To think and behave with the mentality of a 12 year old is no way to get your point across.  

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but there's no reason they shouldn't beable to express themselves without being rude and obnoxious.  

I have 2 PCs, 2 Macs, a Sun SPARC, a NeXT Cube and a Tadpole.  If I had to pick just one to use for the rest of my life, I'd rather not have a computer.  Anyone naive enough to believe one platform is better geared than any other at everything is an idiot.


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## bubbajim (Jun 20, 2002)

*Bubbajim turns gas stove in back corner on... leaking gas everywhere*

Just wanted to help in cleaning out this thread.  Mac users please step to the right wall and pc users step to the left wall.  We'll sort this all out.

Now we want a clean fight here.  Only debate if you know how.  Give good clean consice information about what you know.  Do not flame.  If I didn't mentioned clearly... do not flame.  If you flame you will ignite the gas billowing in the background and will cause quite a mess in here and I don't plan to scrape your body parts of the floor and walls.

Ok.. now shake hands and come out fighting fair.

NOW.. back to our regularly scheduled show....

To throw my 2cents into the pot, I would have to say that every single Operating System has it's problems.  No one should be proud.  To the users that have constant problems with their machines, my condolences.To the users that have no problems and all, you should be more supportive of the latter half and not just poke and prod them because they have these problems and it must be because of the sucky system they are running.

I could spend a month debating this, but I only have to spend a day on each OS to tell everyone that each system needs a lot of work and that there is much to do before everything is stable.

Peace... and please, can't we all just get along?


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## edX (Jun 20, 2002)

Thanks Bubba!!

I was about to come in here and say something official sounding but you already said it so well.


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## Annihilatus (Jun 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by bubbajim _
> *To throw my 2cents into the pot, I would have to say that every single Operating System has it's problems.  No one should be proud.  To the users that have constant problems with their machines, my condolences.To the users that have no problems and all, you should be more supportive of the latter half and not just poke and prod them because they have these problems and it must be because of the sucky system they are running.*



Well said, I just decided that I'd rather stay out of the conversation altogether. Too many fanatics on the Mac platform. It's hard to fight a 'war' (even though I never declared war nor intended this to be a debate), when you have a few hundred Mac users for every PC user on this board. It's pointless.

Andre


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## hulkaros (Jun 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by azosx _
> *I'm fairly sure the only people who would use a $ for the letter s and change acronyms like XP into words like "Xtra Pain" are children.  It's pointless to feed into such a person's insecurities about their hardware and software, let alone themselves.  To think and behave with the mentality of a 12 year old is no way to get your point across.
> 
> Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but there's no reason they shouldn't beable to express themselves without being rude and obnoxious.
> ...



Yes, sir! I am a children and that's why I NEVER told anyone that he is an idiot EVEN when someone was, like you labeled me...

You see, children do not use bad words because mammy tells them so... Don't you have a mammy or she never cared for your behavior? Regardless your answer I have 3 PCs, 1 Mac, 1 Amiga and MANY other machines that I was lucky to get rid of them unlike you! As for sticking with one platform only that's an easy one: Get a Mac and then YOU will get a life... Because only a Mac is enough even for Musicians, Programmers, Internet users, Movie makers, etc-etc, but hey: What do they know, huh? You know better than they do, don't you?  

Finally, I bet that most PC users tend to use other machines too: Amd boxes, Intel boxes, VIA boxes, etc. but when it comes to even talk for a Mac or a Sun or anything non-Intel/Amd inside, they stand tall and mighty about their boxes as the Anihil-something guy and reject the Mac at once... So don't talk about being able to express "themselves without being rude and obnoxious" to me, right?


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## azosx (Jun 21, 2002)

hulkaros, what exactly is it you do with you Mac, other than to use it to flame in Mac forums?


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## hulkaros (Jun 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Annihilatus _
> *
> 
> Well said, I just decided that I'd rather stay out of the conversation altogether. Too many fanatics on the Mac platform. It's hard to fight a 'war' (even though I never declared war nor intended this to be a debate), when you have a few hundred Mac users for every PC user on this board. It's pointless.
> ...



There are no fanatics here mate, only people who saw the light and chose to jump to the bright side of the Force... 

From the beginning you were wrong: You chose to pick a flame war in a Mac-related Forum and if this was not enough you started it on the wrong location: This is a "Mac News & Rumors Discussion" and NOT My Xtra Pain is better than your Mac OS X discussion groups...

Thank God that you are out of this war because now it will end!

And you know what? Is not over because that here are TOO many Mac users but because lusers (aka losers but never users) like yourself you don't have enough positive feelings about your box... Whereas we the Mac Addicts for every argument that you may have about your box, we can EASILY find 2 wrongs for it: That's why we had a Mac in the first place!


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## hulkaros (Jun 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by azosx _
> *hulkaros, what exactly is it you do with you Mac, other than to use it to flame in Mac forums? *



I use it to burn CDs...
Burn DVDs...
Burn Pentium IVs...
And last but not least: Burn trolls who pick a flame war in all but the wrong places: Look at the title of this Forum: Does it say anywhere "Mine is better than yours" thing? Nope! It says Mac News & Rumors Discussion


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## azosx (Jun 21, 2002)

> And last but not least: Burn trolls who pick a flame war in all but the wrong places: Look at the title of this Forum: Does it say anywhere "Mine is better than yours" thing? Nope! It says Mac News & Rumors Discussion



No, you're right, it doesn't.  So explain to me why you turned this tread into a "Mine is better than yours" flame war to begin with?  Wait, no, nevermind.  I'm sure it would be  longwinded and ridiculous like the rest of your posts.  It would seem though as if you are contradicting yourself.  Be careful.  I'd hate to see you discredit yourself as the difinitive Mac authority.  

So you burn CDs and DVDs?    Wow, that's extensive.  If that's all you do with your machine then I whole heartedly agree that you are deserving of the simple, sheltered life of a Mac user you've potrayed and the narrow minded views you hold as a result.


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## ladavacm (Jun 21, 2002)

to me, there is only one reason: I can include unistd.h and use fork(2), and at the same time  use MS-Office to access and update the official documentation.

First part is needed for our software, second for our clients


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## hulkaros (Jun 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by azosx _
> *
> 
> No, you're right, it doesn't.  So explain to me why you turned this tread into a "Mine is better than yours" flame war to begin with?  Wait, no, nevermind.  I'm sure it would be  longwinded and ridiculous like the rest of your posts.  It would seem though as if you are contradicting yourself.  Be careful.  I'd hate to see you discredit yourself as the difinitive Mac authority.
> ...



...Fun with the trolls that lurk in here as well as with people who accept them like yourself...

As for what I do with my Mac, if you really read what I wrote it was simply a funny reply but then again you may NOT have humor in the country you live, huh?

Narrow minded views that I have: Yep, that's the fun part of having a Mac, isn't it? After all, people who feel closer to M$ have wide views, huh? Keep dreaming humorless Mac fella... or should I say PC fella


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## bubbajim (Jun 21, 2002)

Hulk:  There are other forums to have fun in.  If you think people are taking your views too seriously, try to say it a different way.  You mention you are having fun with Trolls, but if you are reading this thread correctly, I think you will notice that the Troll finger is pointing in your direction.  I don't think your a Troll, but right now majority rules and if you would be kind enough to accept some advise and not take it personally, I would recommend that you venture to another forum on this site: Herve's Bar & Grill.  That is the place to have fun and play around.

If you feel compelled to bash people in this thread or any other, it just makes YOU look bad, no one else.  If you just have nothing to do and just want to flame, that is ok too, just let everyone know you have nothing meaningful to say and only want to say things to hurt or aggrevate others and at least we will know that there is no point in expressing our opinions in this thread.

Again for the people that don't understand what opinions are:

Opinions are an expressed view on any particular subject.

So here is my opinion:  Microsoft XP sucks.

I expressed that a product I am using it now and I feel it's unacceptable to my taste.  You may disagree with me so you might come back with, "I like Microsoft XP because....".  This is how you express different views among other people.

Once you point an opinion to a user, your view is no longer seen as an opinion, but now as a direct attack on that user.  Calling people lusers and other insults does not help your credibility.  This is how people get labeled as Trolls and Flamers, which I hope you decide not to be (There are too many of these out there as is.)

Hopefully you will read this carefully and accept this advise and that I have no enjoyment of seeing yet another user go off the deep end like MANIC.  Just play nice and be kind to others... life is too short, especially for Trolls and Flamers.


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## Annihilatus (Jun 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by hulkaros _
> *And you know what? Is not over because that here are TOO many Mac users but because lusers (aka losers but never users) like yourself you don't have enough positive feelings about your box... Whereas we the Mac Addicts for every argument that you may have about your box, we can EASILY find 2 wrongs for it: That's why we had a Mac in the first place!   *



I still don't see, first of all, why you can get away with calling me a loser whereas I can't get away with calling you something similar. That's a double-standard.

Secondly, I don't see how I can be a loser. I paid practically nothing for my machine, I get to use Office, Frontpage and play any game I want, the web pages always show correctly for me and my OS doesn't crash. In essence, I saved at least 2000$ from what you would have paid for something similar and in fact my PC is faster than yours. 

But I guess of course that it doesn't matter what's logical because you make up your own logic.

Andre


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## themacko (Jun 21, 2002)

I think many of you self-proclaimed 'MacAddicts' need to take a step back into reality.  Why try and convince a Windows user that their PC in inferior to your Mac?  What's the point?  My roommate has an HP PC he got for about $900.  It does everything he needs it to and more for under a grand.  That's a great buy nomatter where you come from.  I, on the other hand, prefer to spend a little more because I personally find Macs to be nicer and less of a hassle.

Is one of us immoral because we use different computers?  C'mon, let's drop it already.  There's MUCH more to life than arguing about who's computer can do what, how easily and how fast.


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## Annihilatus (Jun 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by themacko _
> *I think many of you self-proclaimed 'MacAddicts' need to take a step back into reality.  Why try and convince a Windows user that their PC in inferior to your Mac?  What's the point?  My roommate has an HP PC he got for about $900.  It does everything he needs it to and more for under a grand.  That's a great buy nomatter where you come from.  I, on the other hand, prefer to spend a little more because I personally find Macs to be nicer and less of a hassle.
> 
> Is one of us immoral because we use different computers?  C'mon, let's drop it already.  There's MUCH more to life than arguing about who's computer can do what, how easily and how fast. *



Well said.

Andre


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## edX (Jun 21, 2002)

i thought this thread was about to die a natural death. Now i am close to helping it along. Too many people are picking up warnings for personal attacks. I really thought a public warning or 2 would settle things down a bit. Believe me, there are no double standards here - just not everybody is being told in public. I hate to be interrupting the thread every 3rd post.

to be clear, attacks upon individuals will be edited and have repercussions. Generalized attacks upon groups will be tolerated to a greater degree. However, such rantings generally tend to reflect more poorly on the poster than upon their targets. This thread has provided us many good examples of that so far.

I suggest all of you read Bubba's outline of how an opinionated discussion should work. You might want to make a copy to study in your spare time - something you all seem to have plenty of.


If you do suddenly find this thread closed, it will be because i would rather not see anyone else lose their site privileges over such a meaningless argument. Certain individuals are walking a very thin line right now. I suggest you take a step back and think before you post next time.


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## hulkaros (Jun 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by bubbajim _
> *Hulk:  There are other forums to have fun in.  If you think people are taking your views too seriously, try to say it a different way.  You mention you are having fun with Trolls, but if you are reading this thread correctly, I think you will notice that the Troll finger is pointing in your direction.  I don't think your a Troll, but right now majority rules and if you would be kind enough to accept some advise and not take it personally, I would recommend that you venture to another forum on this site: Herve's Bar & Grill.  That is the place to have fun and play around.
> 
> If you feel compelled to bash people in this thread or any other, it just makes YOU look bad, no one else.  If you just have nothing to do and just want to flame, that is ok too, just let everyone know you have nothing meaningful to say and only want to say things to hurt or aggrevate others and at least we will know that there is no point in expressing our opinions in this thread.
> ...



...if one nice day while you were reading your superb news & rumors discussion forum you saw on your superb Mac screen something TOTALLY irrelevant which somehow resembles the trash of this world what would you do? Simply you would take out the trash... At least that's what I do when I see trash inside my trash can 

At first I was having fun because I thought that someone was trying to have fun with us the NARROW minded Mac people but somehow I see now that maybe they have rights in a forum which they DO not belong in the first place: If a thread which says Mine IS better than yours starts in a News & Rumors discussion and we welcome it what's next: Letting people post porn sites and arguments of a BMW being better than a Land Rover? Or maybe that Pamela Anderson is a mother figure to men... 

Anyways, I think that you are pushing it TOO far by black mailing me by using things like "life is too short, especially for Trolls and Flamers"... What's next you will summon a Nazi administrator to kick me out? Yes, I can see now after all these why "they" say that Mac people are NARROW minded...

Note to everybody that read all the above: This is an opinion of mine and I think that I expressed it like I could do anywhere else: TV, newspapers, web sites... Damn EVEN on ANY M$ forums I could expressed these opinions...


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## hulkaros (Jun 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ed Spruiell _
> *i thought this thread was about to die a natural death. Now i am close to helping it along. Too many people are picking up warnings for personal attacks. I really thought a public warning or 2 would settle things down a bit. Believe me, there are no double standards here - just not everybody is being told in public. I hate to be interrupting the thread every 3rd post.
> 
> to be clear, attacks upon individuals will be edited and have repercussions. Generalized attacks upon groups will be tolerated to a greater degree. However, such rantings generally tend to reflect more poorly on the poster than upon their targets. This thread has provided us many good examples of that so far.
> ...



If it IS "such a meaningless argument" why all the hatred you people? Look isn't anyone really LOGICAL in this forum? Let me say this: If I am the TROLL of all TROLLS and BAD poster here and not some other guys, how come I NEVER replied or posted in this community saying TOTALLY irellevant stuff like those other people posted here in the first place: Since when ANYONE can post Mine is better than yours threads in a Mac News & Rumors Discussion forum? Did I started the thread? Did I posted in the first 2 or pages of this TOTALLY irrelevant thread? No, I started posting when I saw that YOU guys let a REAL troll in here and YES sir I am NOT that troll...
And if you are all that strong and mighty, true, logical and daddy figure in this forum then you must act like one: Bane me out forever or learn how to REALLY figure out the trolls that post irrelevant things in irrelevant places and times too!

And if you want another good example of opinion expressed in a good maner here it is:
Most of you people in this thread you were acting like you are politicians, lawyers, philosophers, etc. instead of REALLY expressing yourselves... After all if I am wrong for saying to a PC guy that he is a loser isn't this what Apple says EVEN on their new ads? So bane Apple from your mindset too because is telling the truth right in their PC faces!

Now what do you think? Did I really said what I wanted to say? Nope! My real feeling about the whole WAR is that I feel sorry for anyone who takes irrelevant BS, in irrelevant space and time 

Power to the Mac people for being such good people and turn their faces to accept another smack after the first one... ;( Because that's what you want me to accept... Spanking after spanking while all I wanted to do in the first place was to JUST read my News & Rumors  and not He is Better than Me things...


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## kellhound1 (Apr 17, 2006)

Quite frankly, this quite ridiculous.

Let's all be honest with each other for a moment and consider the following:

PC's are good machines (if built by good companies, offering good packages).  There's nothing wrong with a PC user.  PC's offer a lot of personal tailoring to a user, have a vast ocean of software, both shareware and freeware, and are simply very good general-purpose machines.

But PC's also have a big problem with stability, mostly due to Windows and 3rd-party software developers.  There's SO much stuff out there that you're bound to run into software freezes and system crashes often enough.  Not to mention the plethora of viruses.

Macs are extremely reliable machines, and one of the reasons is because there are very few 3rd-party developers.  The OS is very stable and user-friendly.  But there aren't too many personal tailoring options.

Those of us who use Macs, though, don't really care for "personal tailoring."  We like our machines because they hardly ever crash; the bundled software is amazing; the Apple and 3rd-party software is quite stable; and because they're easy to use.  We don't like sitting around nit-picking everything; we like to start the program and finish what we started.

Final Cut Pro is a good example.  We start the program, place the files as we like, and let the computer crunch the numbers while we go to work or school or whatever.  Sure, PC's do the same things, but they don't offer one of the major (and usually unsaid) realities of Macs: Mac programs are visually pleasing and simple-stupid easy.

Hey, if you're a PC user, good for you.  If you're a Mac user, good for you.  I use both.  Obviously I find Macs a lot better, but PC's are quite handy as well.  The fact is that more and more PC users are converting to Macs, because they just want the ease Apple offers.  Simple enough.

There's no need to have this "war" amongst ourselves.  And, sure, Steve Jobs gives the thumbs-up for those PC-bashing ads, but there are reasons for that.  He just doesn't like Bill Gates; he doesn't like PC's.  So if he can poke some fun at them he will.  Which Mac user didn't like the recent Apple Intel commercials bashing PC's?  We laughed.  We had a good time.  They probably made PC users angry, but so what?  You don't think PC users make fun of us Macites?

My friends and I enjoy poking fun at each other about our machines.  We know it's just to annoy each other.  It's as simple as that.  When people take things too seriously they have problems.

In the end, _*THEY'RE JUST MACHINES*_.  So take it easy.  There are better things to fight about.


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## Veljo (Apr 18, 2006)

Why did you bump a four year old topic?


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## Digitorb (May 2, 2006)

I find both the OS as good as each other although they both have different qualities some better than the other.


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## fryke (May 2, 2006)

I'm sorry, but this thread *really* doesn't need to be revived. It was getting problematic in its own day, and is sure not one to let a new positive discussion grow... Closed.


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