# Grammar matters!



## MDLarson (Apr 21, 2002)

Well, after reading what a few people have said regarding the subject of grammar, let's have a lively little chat about it here!

I think it's important to successfully communicate and articulate whatever it is you're trying to sayotherwise your paragraphs are more susceptible to misunderstanding.  So to me, grammar is worth striving for.

What do *YOU* think?


*And now through the Dialectizer!* (Hacker dialect)
-----------------------------------------
well, aftar er4ding what a few doodz ahve sdaid regardi|\|g Teh subject o fgra/\/\mar, let"s have A lively little caht about it her3!!!!!!!!!!!!1~~~~~~ 1 think it"z impprotaznt to successfully communic4te and artIci8l whatevbert it is ur trying to saytehrwisde youre p4ragraphs r mroe susceptible tyo misuindetstandign!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111~~~ so t0 me, gr4mmar is worth striving fro!!!!!!!!111~~~ what do *you* think!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?? olol!!!!!!!!!!!11~~~~


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## Matrix Agent (Apr 21, 2002)

My friend and me think bad is grammar!

Actually I think grammar has its place, as far as things like ~~NeYo~~ go, but constant pestering about using "I" instead of "me" should problably be avoided. I would be surprised to see many english majors here, or other language students (with the exclusion of Admiral, he's just a player).


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## TommyWillB (Apr 21, 2002)

I guess I'm a bit suspicious of the folks who insist on "linguistic precision".

As long as we can understand each other, that's what is important. If some folks are hard to understand, that become part of the challange. Some people take longer than others to get to know, and the same is true for their written personna's.

I know MANY people will disagree with this sentiment, but this is my 2¢...


If MacOSX.com would enable the spell checking feature that is part of this forum software, that would go a long way to making things better. In the meantime, most of the issues that folks complain about will continue to be spelling/typing errors... not grammar issues.


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## Valrus (Apr 21, 2002)

I agree that the most important thing is being understood. If I have to read what you write two or three times in order to understand it, not because it's complicated, but because *you're not making any fricking sense*, there's a problem.

Curiously though, I like ~~NeYo~~. He's got style, even if I'm a bit skeptical about his syntax. And he's always so upbeat about everything that it's hard to dislike him. In my opinion.

But I think that it's good to pay attention to the details too. If two people are having an argument (um, I mean "debate"), and one person says, "I think your wrong about that," I'm instantly going to take that person a little less seriously. If they speak English and can't put in the effort to make sure their grammar is right, I get the impression that they just don't care enough to polish a little bit, and that will negatively affect how I view their argument.

So while I like ~~NeYo~~, I do find it *extremely* difficult to take him seriously. 

-the valrus


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## edX (Apr 21, 2002)

well, i did start my first go around in college as an english major and while i think grammer is important, i think knowing when and how to break the rules of grammer to communicate in a more casual or contemporary way is also important. I also think there is a big difference between applying these standards to english speaking people and those who have other first languages. 

i don't think it helps to criticize anyone for their misuse of grammer but i have noticed that some non english speaking people actually appreciate the help when you correct something in a polite way. I know i would if i were typing in a second language.

but i would agree that grammer reflects on a person overall. but reflections of ourselves can be good or bad, it depends on what we make them.


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## googolplex (Apr 21, 2002)

your your your your your yoru your!!!

Its a casual error. I don't think it really is a big problem. You know what the person means. Its just a mistake. I'm typing fast and I forget to spell it 'you're'.

Honestly who proofreads their posts. I don't! and I wont proofread this one either! 

I don't think we need to be perfect on here. You have to sound decent, but I dont think we should be pointing out if somebody uses 'your' instead of 'you're'. 

If me write this way all times and it wasnt well. Wroting will be bad to understand.

But, unless someone is really butchering it I think we should all just leave them alone.


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## Kris (Apr 21, 2002)

Grammar matters, sure it does. But to point at people's grammar constantly is unnecessary. I agree that the most important thing is to understand eachother. 
But what's even more annoying than spelling-mistakes is _verbal_ mistakes. I don't know if this is common among people who has english as their mothertongue, but it is among some other languages. I think it's sad when people don't even "care" enough to _pronounce_ things correctly. 

- On this board it's important to remember that not everybody has english as their mothertongue. Perhaps english isn't even their second language. This requires patience.


Kris


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## MDLarson (Apr 21, 2002)

I'd agree that communication is the goal.  Proper spelling and grammar are just means to the end.

I also think maturity has a lot to do with it-- sometimes people (trolls) just come in and spout off.  They don't really want to communicate anything, just tick people off.

Anyway, I'm glad this board has mature members that care about communication (for the most part  )!


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## AdmiralAK (Apr 21, 2002)

mmm hacker talk 
I had a program a while back that allowed me to just give it a simple text file of text and it would convert the text to hacker-talk tecxt


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## nkuvu (Apr 21, 2002)

Valrus seems to be overly concerned with your/you're.  Not that I am criticizing -- I jump all over its/it's and their/there/they're.  Or other trivial things.

Like 'plex saying "Its a casual error" -- should be "It's a casual error" since it's is a contraction of it is, and its is possessive it.

And grammer isn't a word, but grammar is.

Oh, wait, we're supposed to be _more_ tolerant of grammar?  Sorry, went the wrong way.

Seriously, I agree with Valrus -- the important thing is understanding.  This is not a technical forum, nor even professional.  I do actually proofread my posts, sometimes more than once.  I'm not about to ask everyone else to do the same, though.

I'm not a big fan of pointing out grammatical usage no matter how poorly a poster slaughters it.  I will do so in everyday life, but only if I know the person speaking.  For instance, I have a friend who constantly mixes up words.  She uses words that may sound similar to what she wants, but the meaning is completely different.  I sometimes correct her -- not to be nitpicky, but because she gets upset when people think her stupid for her speech patterns.  If I notice her use a specific word over and over, and it is the wrong word, I'll tell her, so in the future she might use the correct one.  I don't do this frequently, and it has never become a sore point.

If I am proofreading a paper, no matter how technical or professional, I will jump on every single grammatical error -- I think it's only fair if I have been asked to do exactly that.  I have not been asked to proof anyone's posts, so I don't.  I once pointed out an 'excessive pronoun use'.  But that was because the post was something like "He has a good point.  Ignore his post."  Who had a good point?  Ignore which post?  But ifn i's post a lin like dis, u all kin understood me, tho it might be mo harder.

I find Neyo's posts to be difficult to understand, but I don't think his credibility is diminished because of it (IMO).  Besides, most people are lazy typers, and ur is shorter that you're.

I don't see what all the fuss is about...

Post 2 of my posting fast (See the B&G thread for details)


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## Valrus (Apr 21, 2002)

Yeah, I'm definitely more anal about grammar than most people. 

Actually all the things that nkuvu was talking about really bother me. I don't know why, but suffice to say that if I corrected someone every time I saw some grammatical thing that bothered me here, I'd have well over a thousand posts by now... but I don't think I'd get a congratulations thread. 

But most of the people here are pretty good about it, so I don't feel like I have to bug everyone. I get the impression that people could write with perfect grammar if they wanted to.

But I don't tend to make those kinds of mistakes (your/you're, its/it's, they're/there/their) even when I'm just typing casually. And I don't proofread anything I write other than what I notice while I'm writing (I'll correct typos, obviously, or if I spot a missing apostrpohe I'll fix that) - I just finished an eight-page paper for my math class and didn't proofread it once before I turned it in.

I dunno. I guess I just don't understand how the mistakes made here wouldn't carry over into more official documents, and indeed if they don't, why they're made here and not there. Those aren't the kinds of things you'd catch with a spell checker, so it seems like it would be best to get into the habit of just being a little more aware of what you're typing.

Don't mean to sound like an ass, if indeed I do. I think I got the grammar-stickler thing from my mother.

-the valrus


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## RacerX (Apr 21, 2002)

There are people who have some very real problems with language. If it is getting totally out of hand, yes, it should be brought to their attention. Otherwise, pointing out mistakes is just being a grammar troll. There really is no nice way for someone to point that type of stuff out, and I feel that the etiquette problem of the grammar troll is far more egregious than the poster with poor grammar.


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## chemistry_geek (Apr 21, 2002)

I think that as long as you're able to effectively communicate, everything should be all right.  I think one's grammar is a reflection of education and personality.  You're either detail-oriented and want to strive for self-improvement or you're not.  Some people are more detail-oriented than others.  So what  if they're not?  It's the way they are and they're happy with themselves, there's no need to criticize if the general idea is clearly expressed with some grammatical errors.  I see many mistakes in other people's posts, and I have never commented about grammar, though I do remember mocking ~~NeYo~~'s writing style (...--==[kN0w wH@t ! mEeN?]==--...).  We should be nice to each other, there's enough voilence and bad attitude in the world.  Why propagate more?  Is it really worth the emotional upset?

I don't got no learnins'


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## symphonix (Apr 21, 2002)

I spent about a year working as a proof-reader when I finished high-school, and ever since then I've been unable to pick up a newspaper without immediately noticing each and every typo on the page.

As a writer, I tend to be a bit fussy about _my_ use of grammar. As a human being, I know that we not only make mistakes, but mistakes are inevitable. And I'm sure there are a few people on our boards who speak english as a second language, or use a translator.

I think it comes down to showing people that you've put in some thought and effort. You wouldn't trust an accountant who met you for a consultation wearing a Motley Crue T-shirt and torn jeans. You would infer that the accountant simply didn't take you seriously.

Likewise, when somebody offers you a reply that is not only helpful but also neatly stated and easy to understand, then you can see that they respect you and take you seriously. Obviously, there is a limit to how fussy you should be, but I _do_ quickly read over my posts every time, out of respect for the other members.


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## googolplex (Apr 21, 2002)

I can understand that, but pointing out that someone used 'your' instead of 'you're' or 'its' instead of 'it's' is a little much don't you think. I mean, we're posting on a message board we're not writing a formal document. I usually try and write properlly, however, I slip sometimes and its not because I dont know I'm just writing a response quickly or something and I don't really feel that it is neccisary to go over it a lot to look for things like that.


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## xoot (Apr 21, 2002)

Heh. If anyone has read the Lord of the Rings or the Hobbit, do not even dare to post Gollum-style.

Example:


> Yesssss, my precious, grammar mattersss very much...



Just trying to spread in a bit of xoot humor here and there.


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## Jadey (Apr 21, 2002)

Language, including grammar, is a constantly changing thing. People don't speak now the way they did 200 years ago. I think the internet is making these changes happen more rapidly. all lower case text, for example... I began to do this years ago on IRC when you had to keep up with conversations through typing. I write business emails and letters in proper case and punctuation, but that's about it. People I talk with online also do this all the time. How long do you think it will be that books will be published in all lower case, or kids can hand in papers like that?

On the other hand, my mom was an english teacher for many years, and it does bother me to read the word "alot" over and over when there is no such word. When an adult uses made up words, it gives the impression of illiteracy.  Of course, with common usage, it (and others) will probably become a word.


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## divibisan (Apr 21, 2002)

Grammar is definitely important. It's hard to read posts that that don't use punctuation or proper grammar.

Little errors aren't important (like your for you're or arent for aren't or me and I). They don't have to be perfect, but it's just considerate to use grammar and punctuation

Also, it's really bad when you have a big block of text without line breaks

Without G and P:
grammars definitely important its hard to read posts that that dont use punctuation or proper grammar little errors arent important like your for youre or arent for arent or me and i they dont have to be perfect but its just considerate to use grammar and punctuation also its really bad when you have a big block of text without line breaks

See how much easier it is to read with proper English.


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## genghiscohen (Apr 22, 2002)

Former English major here.  
And yes, I did get my BA in English.
Grammar *can* be important.  I agree with the posters who regard it as a matter of context.  I am not going to sweat the minor errors in posts here.  But when I see blatant grammatical errors in print ads for colleges (!), I lose respect for those institutions.
Jadey's comment on the evolutionary nature of language is also a good point.  One of the common sayings that has *totally* changed its (not "it's") meaning is "The exception that proves the rule."  
The word "prove" meant "test" at the time that this phrase was coined.  So an exception to a rule tested the rule's validity; it did not *validate* the rule!


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## Valrus (Apr 22, 2002)

And _don't even get me started_ on "Wherefore art thou Romeo?" 

-the valrus

P.S. "I art down here! Throw me the car keys!"
    -Dave Barry

*shudder*


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## googolplex (Apr 22, 2002)

Valrus, grammar is often sacraficed for poetic beauty.

Which sounds nicer "Wherefor art thou romeo"

OR

"Where the hell are you romeo"


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## scruffy (Apr 22, 2002)

Yes, languages change, so that what was a terrible error becomes correct soon enough.  And I'm moving into the future of the English language kicking and screaming all the way!

Really, most changes don't bother me too much.  But I will continue to use lay and lie correctly to the day I die, even if the language changes 100% so I'm the one using them incorrectly.  And I have asked my girlfriend to smother me in my sleep if I start using task as a verb.


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## googolplex (Apr 22, 2002)

How do you use task as a verb?

tasking? tasked? to task?


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## scruffy (Apr 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by googolplex _
> *Valrus, grammar is often sacraficed for poetic beauty.
> 
> Which sounds nicer "Wherefor art thou romeo"
> ...



The former.  Note that both are fully grammatically correct.  They also don't mean the same thing at all - wherefore means why.

"Wherefore art thou Romeo?  A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."
Doesn't make much sense if she's talking about his location.  She means:
"Why do you have to be Romeo Montague (of the Montagues my parents want to kill)?  You'd be just as wonderful if you had some other last name."

I quite like the different forms of address.  Knowing the difference between 'you' and 'thou' lets you get different levels of formality across without knowing any elaborate social rituals (which probably change from place to place), just basic grammar.  Just like 'du' vs. 'Sie' in German or 'tu' vs. 'vous' in French.

Interestingly, one of the reasons the Quakers fled England for America was that they were persecuted for using 'thee' and 'thou' with everyone - they refused to use the formal 'ye' and 'you' even with priests, nobility, etc.  Just by the choice of pronouns, they could constantly reinforce their message - we are equals, there is no rank that matters here on Earth.


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## Valrus (Apr 22, 2002)

Googolplex:
Regarding "task," just don't even ask. I frequent this thread (oh really?) and I know *I* don't want to know.

Regarding Romeo: Actually, I wasn't complaining about the grammar. This time. What I was referring to was the interpretation of the word "wherefore" to mean "where." That really bothers me. It doesn't mean "where." It means, roughly, "why."

So I was actually alluding to the "evolution" of language via Shakespeare. (Oh no! Darwinist propaganda!)

-the valrus


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## scruffy (Apr 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by googolplex _
> *How do you use task as a verb?
> 
> tasking? tasked? to task? *



Lucky you, you haven't heard it yet.  It seems to be management-speak, especially in computers.  "I am going task you with this", or even "I am going to task you to do this" means "I am going to assign you this (as a task)".


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## Valrus (Apr 22, 2002)

Damn, scruffy. I was about to set googolplex straight but you beat me to it. 

That's another thing. A lot of people seem to think that in Shakespeare, "thou," "thy," etc. are really formal pronouns, when in fact it's the opposite - the pronouns we use today are the formal ones, whereas the "old-sounding" ones were used either to talk to someone you knew well or to insult someone you didn't.

Hence "your Highness," not "Thy Highness." If you ever catch anyone saying "Thy Highness," you'll know they're full of it.

Oh, and that's another thing. When you're trying to emulate Elizabethan speech, do *not* just slap an "-eth" on the end of every verb. Or an "-est," for that matter. It's just not funny. It's not!

Thank you, come again.

-the valrus


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## nkuvu (Apr 22, 2002)

When trying to emulate Elizabethan speech, the '-eth' or '-est' are not funny.  When trying to _poke fun at_ Elizabethan speech they are.  "I am going to tasketh this to thee".  It's funny.  Laugh.    Or don't.  _I_ think it's funny.    But only in jest.  The same kind of funny when Brad Pitt says "I want a ride in your el trucko" in the Mexican...

So scruffy -- which is lay and which is lie?  I constantly get them confused...


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## genghiscohen (Apr 22, 2002)

As in, "He's *lying* about *laying* her."

And I love the French phrase "Ne me tutoie pas!"


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## scruffy (Apr 22, 2002)

And
Lie on the couch.
Lay the blanket on the couch.

To lay an object is to place it horizontally - you can lay something, but you cannot just plain lay.
To lie is to be horizontal, or to place yourself horizontally - you don't lie something, just lie.


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## googolplex (Apr 22, 2002)

But lay is the past tense of lie. Like this:

"I lay down for a bit yesterday".

That is correct. Isn't it?


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## Valrus (Apr 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by googolplex _
> *But lay is the past tense of lie. Like this:
> 
> "I lay down for a bit yesterday".
> ...



I think it's "I *laid* down for a bit."

-the valrus


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## googolplex (Apr 22, 2002)

Hmm yes you are right. Ok, so there is no reason why I should ever say lay instead of lie now


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## MDLarson (Apr 22, 2002)

So is "Photoshop" a verb now?  

"Just _Photoshop_ it!"


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## Valrus (Apr 22, 2002)

It is at Fark.com.

-the valrus


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## Jadey (Apr 22, 2002)

One more interesting thing is the use of words in type that aren't used in language. For example, often when writing in singular "they" or "their" is used in place of he or she in order to be gender neutral. Other times, s/he is used, but this has no pronunciation. It is a paper-only word.


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## nkuvu (Apr 22, 2002)

Language evolves in strange ways.  Fifteen years ago I doubt that anyone would expect certain words to become verbs.

"I was spammed!"


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## nkuvu (Apr 22, 2002)

I know quite a few English sticklers (you know who you are  ) who insist that using 'they' or 'their' is incorrect for gender neutral speech.  There is no good alternative in English, but some people are trying to get new words adopted for gender neutrality.


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## genghiscohen (Apr 22, 2002)

Finnish already *is* a gender-neutral language.  The 3rd-person singular noun is "hän," and you have to figure out from context whether it's "he" or "she."
Finland also has the world's best record of pay equality between the sexes.  Coincidence?  I wonder...


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## Jadey (Apr 22, 2002)

In Canada, it's not legal at all to pay between the sexes.


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## Valrus (Apr 22, 2002)

I spam
You spam
He/she spams

We spam
You all spam
They spam

At least it's easy to decline!

-the valrus


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## scruffy (Apr 22, 2002)

I spam 
Thou spammest 
He/she spammeth

We spam 
You spam 
They spam

Easy, except you have to remember to double the 'm' in the 2nd and 3rd person singular.


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## Valrus (Apr 23, 2002)

You're dead Scruffy. 

-the valrus


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## simX (Apr 23, 2002)

> Verbing weirds language.
> 
> -- Calvin (from Calvin and Hobbes)



Heh, that quote right there just speaks for itself in terms of the evolution of language.  (I can really pull out a Calvin and Hobbes quote for any situation.  )

Anyway, back to the topic at hand, I think grammar and spelling is very important.  I understand that the only point of posting on these boards is to communicate oneself, and that grammar trolling doesn't help.  However, I use correct grammar because I like to know that I won't revert to online grammar/spelling rules when I write a paper or an official e-mail.  I still write some colloquial stuff in papers, and it just doesn't go well in an essay.

However, I think the most important grammar rules to follow are those on punctuation, even online.  If someone posts something that is just a big long paragraph, it is SOOOOO hard to read.  It really bugs the heck out of me.  It bugs the heck out of me, too, when I see excessive punctuation and symbol usage; it's just soooo hard to read (sorry, Neyo, but your posts really ARE hard to read).

So what I tend to do when I post online is faithfully keep to grammar rules and make sure my spelling is correct, and I also tend to write in much shorter paragraphs than I would on a regular essay, so it makes it much easier to read.  And I do proofread my posts  I usually read them once over before I post and once over after I post.

I also like to call people on spelling mistakes and grammar mistakes, but only when it seems like they're trying to have correct spelling and grammar.  When there's someone who makes a ton of spelling and/or grammar mistakes, it usually seems like they don't care (I'm not saying this is bad, I'm just stating a fact), so I won't post about it.  But when it looks like the person tried to adhere to rules and spelling, I usually correct them (like the most recent example when I corrected ElDiablo's spelling of "hypocrite").  I just think it's nice, so that people won't make the same mistake in the future, especially on essays and stuff where it's really important.  But, no, I won't be a grammar troll.

OFF-TOPIC:  About the Calvin and Hobbes thing: I always like to pull out a quote whenever I can.  Calvin and Hobbes is the coolest and funniest cartoon every bar none, and it constantly surprises me how much commentary about so many diverse topics Bill Watterson managed to write.  And then there's the times when it's just hilarious for laughter's sake.  It's the best comic ever.

I also love to use Calvin and Hobbes to make my own commentaries.  Like in sophomore year of high school, we had to do a project about our "spirit guide", about someone to whom we look up.  I chose Calvin, because he does have a lot of philosophical thoughts, but I picked him more because I just wanted to make fun of the assignment.  I hate inane assignments that try to help you "explore" yourself, so I did the assignment seriously with Calvin, even though in reality I was mocking the assignment. 

It was funny, too, because junior year we did something similar, where we wrote a series of essays/papers/journals/poetry revealing something about ourself, and then we had to compile ten of them with some overriding theme.  So I picked Calvin and Hobbes again, and I picked a specific cartoon to match each piece of writing.  It was funny in more ways than one, because again I was slightly mocking the assignment, but it was compounded by the fact that I still had people in my class who knew that I had chosen Calvin for my spirit guide the year before, so it was just like a running joke. 

I guess in a way I AM becoming like Calvin in reality.


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## ~~NeYo~~ (May 18, 2002)

Hey Guys, Looks Like this Post was simply too Good, an Opportunity to miss! 

Yes, Chemistry_Gimp, i Certainly do remember you giving me a hard time, but i like to think i can "hold my own" and So it was a Challenge to say the least!  

Valrus: Dude, I think we need to talk More often!  hehe! 

Anyhow, Moving back to the  Topic in hand, My opinion on this Matter is Something of: 

"How many user's are there on the Website"? ... A Fair amount i'd to add. Now, i feel that its best for Everyone to have a "personality" of their own. and If that entails Grammar, spelling Differences, then thats Cool. i DON'T Approve of all this ..

" 1337 n00b "

..Crap, but I feel, that People Should be able to Express their Personalities, as freely as they wish, Without having to "watch out" regarding the Fellow user's negative opinions of themselves! Take me as an Obvious example, you all know that i've not had a Mac for Quite some time, and that i only had one for a short while only. So From the Outset, i am Somewhat "Different" to the regular viewer's here! But as you all seemed to have Picked up, my Personality Shines Through my posts! Not Just Because "i am who i am" but the way i write, the way its Presented! 

After all, People on this Board, Often Relate to a Form of "1337" talk as "neyo-ish" lol ... (Yes Googleplex, i DID see it!  ) 

summarising, i'd like to say, people, on the web should freely express themselves However they like, and not be Judged! As Long as the person BEHIND their Specific Lingo Can ACTUALLY Write "properly" When required upon, and isn't a TOTAL Idiot, it's all Good! 

Have Fun! ...

NeYo


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## Gwailo (May 19, 2002)

My life has been painted with relentless correction of my grammar and spelling, especially during high school. I agree with MDLarson, if we are going to speak he should do so correctly. Perhaps that is a bit of the French influence but hey... 

I, however, also agree that there is room for slang and development of the language. Has any of you ever seen Olde English, or Occitan? Well the language has changed since the 1200s...

I also hasten to add that despite my assertions, this IS a friendly bulletin board, not a critical essay


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## dave25 (May 21, 2002)

This has been a very interesting thread. I fully agree that a level of respect for grammar is important, though we should of course be tolerant of those for whom English is not their first language.  

However, there is sometimes a fine line between respect for the rules of grammar for the sake of clarity, and simple pedantry.  For example, in British English (I don't know if the same applies in America or other English-speaking countries) it is bad grammar to split an infinitive, ie to insert another word in the middle of an infinitive verb form.  Probably the most famous occurrence of this is in the opening to each episode of the original Star Trek, where it is explained that their mission is "to boldly go..."   Any British teacher of English would tell you that this is very bad grammar, but does it really obscure the meaning that was intended?  I don't think so. 

Let's defend basic grammar for the sake of clarity but not be pedantic, and keep up the tolerant traditions of this forum.


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## xoot (May 21, 2002)

And don't talk in h@ck3r!


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