# Tiger Preview - no new bar?



## jonmichael23 (Jun 30, 2004)

I had Tiger two days ago, heres my thoughts........ everything is what I expected it to be, RSS feeds are cool, quicktime 6.6 cool, ichat av 3.0, dashboard is, well dashboard (kind of dumb you cant have the widgets stay on screen), etc. Spotlight is very nice, and its also very fast. I have one grip however and it was one of the things I was excited to see. If you'd seen in the demos for spotlight and dashboard on apples site and in the keynote, the menu bar is different. Its a sheen of light metal with blue around a white apple and then spotlight. This is not in the preview, it is the same bar and theres light blue in the menus. Spotlight is at the end of the bar however, and when you click it it becomes graphite (which im assuming the apple does). If jobs had it running at the keynote why didn't they include it in the preview? Anyone know why/figured out how to get the new menu bar?


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## mi5moav (Jun 30, 2004)

So, what are the 150 changes/additions...we've seen about 15 or so. Any new stuff in the apps folder? Is it actually 64bit compiled, are you running on a g5?...seem snappier??


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## jonmichael23 (Jun 30, 2004)

everything seems to be updated (address book, mail, font book,etc) have spotlight integrated into them. safari 2.0 (with the RSS) seems a little bit faster, but it all looks the same. quicktime 6.6 is impressive, i love the H.256 technology. Pipeline (insnt that automater) i just found in the applescripts folder. I'll have to try that out later. the finder is updated with the spotlight technology as well. I haven't installed xcode yet so I havent used core image and core video, but I do have them. Everything looks exactly how the demoed it at the keynote, except the menu bar. system preferences is how they demoed it with the spotlight integrated. its running fine right now, I tried installing shapeshifter to see if themes would work and it totally messed up the whole system, my internet wouldnt connect no matter what i did afterwards so I had to reinstall. Do not attempt at using it lol. msn messenger runs fine. everything is running fine. they must be coming up with something else if this isn't coming out til 2005


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## mi5moav (Jun 30, 2004)

Sounds good so, far thanks for all the updates.


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## Salvo (Jun 30, 2004)

What about Sync Sertvices?
Is it a replacement, or Supplement for iSync? Will a Third Party Developer be able to make an iSync Conduit for a PocketPC/Palm/3rd Party Disk Hosting service (like .Mac)?
I know Sync Services offers Third Party Developers the ability to Create Conduits for their Programs (at the Server End), but What About the Client End?


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## GroundZeroX (Jun 30, 2004)

I will have my copy in a day or two. Is it stable enough to run day to day activities?


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## Orbit (Jun 30, 2004)

Just curious but how did is uncle who works for IBM get a copy of tiger? isint ibm windows usually?


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## kendall (Jun 30, 2004)

they always have previewed more advanced builds at WWDC than they hand out.

i remember last year they were demoing filevault at WWDC but the preview CDs didnt have filevault enabled.

it was actually many many builds later before filevault actually functioned.


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## kendall (Jun 30, 2004)

MacMan said:
			
		

> Just curious but how did is uncle who works for IBM get a copy of tiger? isint ibm windows usually?



IBM makes the G5 processor so what are the chances?


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## Ripcord (Jun 30, 2004)

IBM does build OS X software, including their very platform-oriented C compiler.  It's likely that there have been quite a few people from IBM at the ADC, and quite a few people that are working with Tiger.


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## jonmichael23 (Jun 30, 2004)

information removed to stop furthur discussion and focus on what this topics really about.

anyway, kendall - I see, I wish that I had the most recent build, but oh well! whenever apple releases a newer build will it be in software update or do they seed it to ADC members?


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## jonmichael23 (Jun 30, 2004)

GroundZeroX said:
			
		

> I will have my copy in a day or two. Is it stable enough to run day to day activities?




like I said, dont use shapeshifter. It seems okay, I've had it lock up when trying to log out once, and I got the beach ball whenever I first opened system preferences, but nothing bad has happened. I do however miss my snow.e 2 icons, hopefully candybar will be getting an update soon (it probably wont for the beta however).


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## Pengu (Jun 30, 2004)

> hopefully he'll get me a good job someday


Ah america, where everyone aims to be given a job by their family.

I mean. Who cares if that guy who studied for four years actually KNOWS how to do the job, YOU know the boss.


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## DeltaMac (Jun 30, 2004)

jonmichael23 said:
			
		

> hes real name is leon kmiec (middle name gerold and he hates leon thus jerry) . the last time I saw him ( a good three, four years ago) he had a thinkpad with him all the time. when he found out I had an iMac he started emailing me and talking to me more then he ever has, hopefully he'll get me a good job someday.
> 
> anyway, kendall - I see, I wish that I had the most recent build, but oh well! whenever apple releases a newer build will it be in software update or would they be informing my uncle somehow or how do they do it?



I wonder if Uncle Jerry knows you put his name on the internet when he's leaking early builds to you??  Apple likely won't think much of that....


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## kendall (Jul 1, 2004)

i dont think uncle jerry would get into any trouble because the preview was distributed to everyone at wwdc.  i believe the last wwdc when panther was distributed, apple encouraged sharing it with friends.  i might be completely wrong, it very well could have been some other software.

in anycase, if they are going to hand out 1000s of previews, what do they expect?

as for getting more advanced builds from your uncle, its probably best not to share that info.  im sure anything seeded after this is not intended for public viewing.

i just wish the wwdc preview worked on my powerbook.  apparently its incompatible with most powerbooks.  the kernel on the DVD panics when trying to boot into the installer because it doesnt recognize the powerbook.

it gives an error like, "powerbook 3,5 unknown."

there is a workaround but it requires an external HD.  ive heard many people running it say that its basically panther with launchbar and dashboard included.  despite the controversy (that i partially started) im still excited about this release.  its supposidly pretty stable, other than not working with some 3rd party apps.


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## soulseek (Jul 1, 2004)

filevault did work last year from the day of the keynote !!!

i did install the developers preview and installed in and encrypted my 20 GB home folder .... it worked (not perfect) but was included !!!


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## kendall (Jul 1, 2004)

soulseek said:
			
		

> filevault did work last year from the day of the keynote !!!
> 
> i did install the developers preview and installed in and encrypted my 20 GB home folder .... it worked (not perfect) but was included !!!




no it didnt, it was disabled in the wwdc preview.  i dont even think their was an icon for it.  later builds had the icon but disabled features.  you are INCORRECT.


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## jonmichael23 (Jul 1, 2004)

like kendall said, apple probably wants it to spread to encourage excitement for tiger. I actually am back using panther, the tiger preview was too little/too buggy for me to want to use it full time. I did like what was there though, especially since we have seen the advancements from this build to what steve was using. You would think Apple would have tested it out and made sure it worked on powerbooks though   . and about future builds, I figured apple would let everyone with tiger update to newer builds (do ADC members at least get to?) but then I guess people could just keep the latest build available since it'd probably be just as good as the final version. I'm happy I had the chance to preview what Tiger had to offer, and am hoping apple can work hard in the coming months to come up with more. what I would like to see

1. the new menu bar and other windows updated so they don't look like a sub-par theme. 

2. automaters interface and icon looks a lot nicer then pipeline's already, so work on that some more.

3. a new version of iTunes that let you have skins! 5.0 please.......

4. a much better preview, the one in tiger is pretty bad you can only export to jpeg in it.

5. more stable (we all know it will be however so no real worries)

6. more widgets , tons of widgets, thousands of widgets! all with the cool new animations from core image and core video on all of them.......and the option to keep ones you want on screen all the time.

7. spotlight - in the preview it is fast and works pretty good, but I'd still like it to be updated (and the option to take it off the menu bar if wanted!)

8.a new finder icon that i like, maybe come up with something for apps besides brushed metal........

9. 4-way and 11-way (including yourself that is) conferencing with windows AIM people.

10. i also wish apple would focus on making everything that works fine in panther work the exact same way in tiger, instead of making people update their apps instantly, and would also allow for future versions of apps to still work in panther instead of being 10.4.x only. (i think apple should do this for two OS'es all the time, so 10.5 and 10.4 apps should work the same, 10.6 and 10.5, etc.)

11. I want expose to be re-defined like ichat was. I dont think adding widgets is going to be enough for me.

12. I would like to see some other groundbreaking thing come out of tiger and suprise everyone. I still can't think of what it'd be though. oh and since theming for tiger currently looks a lot harder then it was for panther and jaguar, maybe include something with the new xcode that eased developers process. (I know this is 0% likely to happen, but hey there are widgets in the new release).

13. and last but not least, I think this is an important key to tiger being succesful. include the new iapps from ilife 04. I don't want to spend 130 dollars, and have to then pay 50 more just for apps that should be included with the OS. I think apple does this though, doesn't every new OS X update include the newest versions of the iapps? 

if apple did all that......it will be a great upgrade just like panther was, probably even a lot better. core image core video and the new quicktime and ichat all look very nice already. just improve and innovate apple and I will love it.


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## Cat (Jul 1, 2004)

> more widgets , tons of widgets, thousands of widgets! all with the cool new animations from core image and core video on all of them.......and the option to keep ones you want on screen all the time.


As we now know, the widgets appear to be nothing but web-pages (with some extra's). I don't think it would be difficult to hack them to run outside of the Dashboard. First of all, what happens if you load them in Safari? Does it simply display them inside the browser window? What happens if you try to run the JavaScript with the Java AppletRunner? Can we build a simple app to run them on the Desktop? If they just need WebKit to run them, I think it will be relatively easy ... morover, what can Widgets do that we can't already do in AppleScript (I mean functionally, not aesthetically)?


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## Decado (Jul 1, 2004)

"13.[...] include the new iapps from ilife 04. [---] I think apple does this though, doesn't every new OS X update include the newest versions of the iapps?"

nopp. only when you buy a computer. and i think there will be new iLife (iLife 05) that uses core graphics to some degree (iPhoto effects). and they wont ship the new iLife together with tiger when they know that people will buy it anyway. and i dont think they would ship the old iLife. the best thing you can do as a consumer is buy a new computer when both iLife and tiger is out (and pull 200$ in your head from the pricetag). :-D


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## ElDiabloConCaca (Jul 1, 2004)

Cat said:
			
		

> As we now know, the widgets appear to be nothing but web-pages (with some extra's). I don't think it would be difficult to hack them to run outside of the Dashboard. First of all, what happens if you load them in Safari? Does it simply display them inside the browser window? What happens if you try to run the JavaScript with the Java AppletRunner? Can we build a simple app to run them on the Desktop? If they just need WebKit to run them, I think it will be relatively easy ... morover, what can Widgets do that we can't already do in AppleScript (I mean functionally, not aesthetically)?



Widgets are NOT web pages.  They are widgets that use the same languages and structures that web pages use, with a little Cocoa thrown in, but they are most definitely not HTML pages -- they're actually XML, but they will not open in a browser.

They are extremely easy to write, though, if you've ever written a little JavaScript... for example, here's a little code from Arlo & Perry from their Calendar widget:


```
// Write the Days of the week
for (var i = 0; i < 7; i++) {
	weeksShadow[i] = new Text();
	weeksShadow[i].hOffset = (i * 30) + 37;
	weeksShadow[i].vOffset = 34;
	weeksShadow[i].size = 10;
	weeksShadow[i].font = "Arial";
	weeksShadow[i].alignment = "right";
	weeksShadow[i].color = "#000000";
			
	weeks[i] = new Text();
	weeks[i].hOffset = (i * 30) + 36;
	weeks[i].vOffset = 33;
	weeks[i].size = 10;
	weeks[i].font = "Arial";
	weeks[i].alignment = "right";
	weeks[i].color = "#ffffff";
```

See?  Reguar JavaScript style programming... I think I might take a stab at one of my own soon!

Also, I highly doubt that Apple's Java AppletRunner will run a JavaScript.  Just because they share four letters doesn't make them the same thing.  In actuality, only the syntax between Java and JavaScript is similar (and still different)... in every other regard, though, they are completely different, incompatible beasts.  Java is not JavaScript, and JavaScript is not Java.


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## cybergoober (Jul 2, 2004)

I thought they were talking about Dashboard widgets, not Konfabulator widgets...

Dashboard widgets will load in a browser.


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## kendall (Jul 2, 2004)

dashboard gadgets will not load in safari


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## Decado (Jul 2, 2004)

"Dashboard widgets will load in a browser."
vs.
"dashboard gadgets will not load in safari"

 anyone with tiger who care to prove either of these statements wrong or right?


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## kendall (Jul 2, 2004)

Decado said:
			
		

> "Dashboard widgets will load in a browser."
> vs.
> "dashboard gadgets will not load in safari"
> 
> anyone with tiger who care to prove either of these statements wrong or right?



i just did


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## Decado (Jul 2, 2004)

ah, such a strikingly sublimal amount of evidence you presented in your argument 
is the widgets loose little things you can throw around or are they embedded in some kind of application (dashboard)? i know they are presented through dashboard, but are the physical files free to drag to Safari?


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## Randman (Jul 2, 2004)

Konfabulator has Widgets.
Dashboard will have Gadgets.

From reports on other sites, the Gadgets appear pretty safe and can not be tampered with via external manipulation even though they will be web-based.



> to quelch security concerns: even when run locally in Safari, all the gadgets that interfere with the system info, most importantly Adress Book are non-functional. You can't even change the iTunes track  So there's clearly more to gadgets than just HTML+JavaScript.


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## Cat (Jul 2, 2004)

ElDiablo: They may not be literally webpages, but consider this:


> A Dashboard widget is a bundle that contains a principal HTML file and any supporting code that the widget requires (be it CSS, JS, images, or native code). A widget can add an optional interface to native code, written in Objective-C, that can be bound into JavaScript and made accessible from the HTML document's JS window object.
> 
> ...
> 
> As for many of the animations, fades, slides, etc in the widgets themselves., they simply look so damn cool because of Safari's rich support for CSS3 used in conjunction with DHTML. Do you know what I talked about at WWDC? Image replacement. Sliding doors. Using opacity to create fade effects. CSS3 text truncation. Web standards. All of which are being used to full effect in Dashboard widgets. Our standards support has grown so rich and our engine has become so smooth at effects that people are constantly mistaking pure JS/DHTML/CSS stuff that people are doing for something fancier. I've heard "That's HTML?!" several times in the past week.


As WebKit is the engine for displaying widgets, I think it would not be very difficult to "hack" the system to make them appear outside of the Dashboard. I don't have Tiger so I cannot try it out. Maybe widgets will not load just like that by dragging them onto SAfari, but can you llok at the code? Can it be freely modified? Can you write your own using some kind of template? Can you see what would prevent it from loading in a browser? Some time ago there was a hint on MacosXhints about writing a browser in XCode simply with one line of code and calling WebKit. It would not be difficult to make a "widget runner" IMO.


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## lnoelstorr (Jul 2, 2004)

Randman said:
			
		

> Konfabulator has Widgets.
> Dashboard will have Gadgets.



You may want to take that up with Apple:



			
				www.apple.com said:
			
		

> The Dashboard zooms on top of your Desktop with a click of a function key and, like Exposé, disappears just as quickly and easily. Use the Dashboard to access nifty new mini-applications called *Widgets*.



source:

http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/dashboard.html


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## kendall (Jul 2, 2004)

Decado said:
			
		

> ah, such a strikingly sublimal amount of evidence you presented in your argument
> is the widgets loose little things you can throw around or are they embedded in some kind of application (dashboard)? i know they are presented through dashboard, but are the physical files free to drag to Safari?



if you take a gadget and try to open it with safari, nothing happens.  is this enough evidence for you?

the gadgets are just like konfabulator widgets on the outside.  the exist seperately from OS X though.  you can drag them around when you press the hotkey to bring them on screen.  you cant drag them into safari because they exist seperately.

if you've used konspose, they gadgets exist in that type of state all the time.

some are customizable, some are not.


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## kendall (Jul 2, 2004)

lnoelstorr said:
			
		

> You may want to take that up with Apple:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



in the wwdc preview of Tiger they are called gadgets in the dashboard program.


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## lnoelstorr (Jul 2, 2004)

Well, seeing as they're called widgets all over the page on Apple's site, my guess would be that they're going to go with the name Widgets in the final version.

They were probably going to go with gadgets, but changed their mind.  I seriously doubt the change of mind was the other way round as they could VERY easily update their website.

I also see no reason they'd call them widgets all over their website if they had no intention of calling them that.  A lot more people will see the website that the wwdc preview.


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## Randman (Jul 2, 2004)

Widgets, as a name for those items, has a much longer history than Konfabulator. 


And talk from people who have the Tiger demo says the library info and other system stuff calls them Gadgets. So I suppose it wouldn't be incorrect to call the Dashboard items widgets or Gadgets, and Konfabulator's as widgets or Widgets.

But I guess we'll all have to wait until early next year for the final choice, whatever it is.


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## fryke (Jul 2, 2004)

Could everyone please try and stick a *little* bit on topic? Or is it just the time for turning every thread into a Konfab/Dashboard discussion? Widgets, gadgets: Whatever.

Like last year with Panther, the first preview of Tiger is not feature complete. Those who have access to the builds will see a few ups and downs between builds before Apple starts to finalise the feature set. It's going to take a bit longer with Tiger, too, since they gave themselves a few months more time.

That menubar will probably arrive in one of the next few builds. The Spotlight-icon at least already has got that new look (and you can see it across the OS in several places even today with Safari's buttons for example). I guess we'll see more of these changes soon.


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## kendall (Jul 2, 2004)

a few months more time is an understatement.  1 half of 2005 gives them potentially 12 months.  jaguar and panther were released 4 months after wwdc.


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## theNonsuch (Jul 2, 2004)

Can anyone talk about stability - day-to-day usage? What breaks? What isn't working?


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## jonmichael23 (Jul 2, 2004)

theNonsuch - it seems *fairly* stable, I haven't run into anything major yet. The whole system went down when trying to install shapeshifter and applying a theme, but thats expected since the menu bar is slightly changed (thanks to spotlight) and all, but most everything works fine. MSN Messenger behaved fine, although there were some were shadows around the messenger icon when it went to any of the away status'. One time when I logged out, it never went to the login screen (waited ten minutes) so it forced me to restart. Also, whenever the display goes to sleep (not the whole computer) whenever you go to use it it will take 10 seconds to show up like it would if the whole computer was asleep and you woke it, but its not really a big deal. Safari 2.0 unexpectedly quit once but I've used it a lot and that was the only instance. I have some grips about safari 2.0, a lot of web pages do not display correctly and will have white lines in between stuff, etc. Dashboard has worked fine, one time I was unable to close out of a clock widget but it functiosn fine. everything else has worked fine, I just wish steve and apple would have been smart enough to have given out the latest build, especially since it looked to host a lot more improvements and looked overall more stable. One thing, I do not think the build includes H.264, quicktime doesn't seem any better or have the ability to have things at better resolutions, and I don't think iChat incorporates the new conferencing cabilities (again, because I don't think H.264 is in the build). Could this be why the late delay for Tiger, could they have to wait until H.264 starts shipping in DVD players before using it first or something like that? Also, automater in the newer build is a bit different then pipeline in the preview, the interface seems sllightly improved and I also love that robot icon. I still haven't installed xcode 2.0 so I'm not sure if core image and core video is even present. overall, the preview isn't too impresive, but I have found myself accidently hitting F12 in panther expecting the widgets or Gadgets to pop up.............I think I would have been a lot more impressed if it had been the build steve was using, oh well.


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## wiz (Jul 2, 2004)

well u need to run a mp4 file that has been encoded with the h.264 codec in the first place i think. but ichat and stuff use it for streaming video.. any difference there?


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## TommyWillB (Jul 2, 2004)

jonmichael23 said:
			
		

> ...hes real name is l#0n km1#c (middle name g#r0ld)...


Isn't publishing this info on the Internet a good way to get him fired?

23 year career... Easy come... Easy go!





			
				jonmichael23 said:
			
		

> ...hopefully he'll get me a good job someday.


Not looking too likely...


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## TommyWillB (Jul 2, 2004)

Cat said:
			
		

> What happens if you try to run the JavaScript with the Java AppletRunner?


A Java Applet is a specific form of Java application. Since Java and JavaScript are completely different technologies, I'd expect this to do nothing.


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## jonmichael23 (Jul 2, 2004)

TommyWillB said:
			
		

> Isn't publishing this info on the Internet a good way to get him fired?
> 
> 23 year career... Easy come... Easy go!Not looking too likely...



sorry to have you worried, I just posted that because someone didn't believe that I got it from my uncle. if hes worked there for 23 years I don't really think apple will care about him giving me a sub-par preview of an OS that won't be released for another year. for your sake, since you seem so worried and can't stay on topic about what's the tiger preview like and why the menu bar and other features steve demo'ed weren't in there, I'll remove it just for you. and btw, If you would have read you would have realized I posted earlier about how I went back to panther, I don't even have the tiger preview anymore.


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## TommyWillB (Jul 2, 2004)

jonmichael23 said:
			
		

> ...since you seem so worried and can't stay on topic about what's the tiger preview like...If you would have read you would have realized...


Really?!?! Your scolding me??? ...for trying to point out how risky it is to post info like that on the Internet?

If you've read any number of my posts, you'd quickly see that I'm not the type of person to say something like this lightly.

Sheesh... Sorry, Mr. 85th post, for being off-topic.


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## jonmichael23 (Jul 6, 2004)

sorry. I was too harsh. As for me only having 85 posts, well everyone has to start somewhere


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## kendall (Jul 6, 2004)

well, mr 969th post thinks you can all kiss his a$$!


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## Ripcord (Jul 6, 2004)

Well, it's official.  There is NOTHING going on in the world of Macs at the moment =)


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## fryke (Jul 7, 2004)

Seems like. Yet, I have to urge you to stay on topic. ;-) ... But let's grab this chance and talk about some dos and don'ts regarding Tiger Preview/Beta information...

The Apple News, Rumours & Discussion forum on macosx.com is interested in information regarding early (and later) builds of Tiger. Screenshots, reviews - bring them on. What we don't want is talk about where and how to get those builds, as we all _KNOW_ that there are three ways to get them: Either through WWDC attendance (which is over now), an ADC Select or an ADC Premier account, and they _do_ cost money. Everything else regarding the acquisition of Tiger builds is unwanted here on macosx.com - and it's quite likely illegal, anyway.

About the lack of news, rumours and discussion in the world of Macs: This'll change soon enough. MacWorld 2004 is, of course, a bit low-key, since Apple doesn't participate and is unlikely to reveal something important, but there are still rumoured introductions. (See other threads, rumour sites etc.) And Apple is quite likely to seed new Tiger builds soon, also.


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## Decado (Jul 7, 2004)

okej, kind of on topic:
this is for you kids who got tiger, did apple in some way in the documentation or during wwdc hint when the next preview would arrive?


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## serpicolugnut (Jul 7, 2004)

The build shown at WWDC by Jobs was newer than the build that developers received. Since it takes at least 10-14 days to press the DVDs, the WWDC build shown off was probably at least 2 weeks newer. Other things that were different from the build Jobs demoed... Automator is called "Pipeline" in the developer build, and features none of the Automator branding, instead using a domino as it's icon. 

Many of the cool widgets Apple demoed for Dashboard are not present, either. 

This isn't surprising since the main thing Apple wanted to get in developers hands was the underlying technology that will power 10.4 - Core Image, Core Video, Dashboard, etc. It's important that developers have access to these items well in advance so they can take advantage of them by the time Tiger ships next year.


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## Ripcord (Jul 14, 2004)

I started playing around with the Tiger preview yesterday.

For the most part things seemed "ho-hum", not much difference.  Dashboard is mildly interesting, Automator is probably really nice if I ever figure out when I'd need it, and I still don't have anyone I can use iChat AV with, let alone iChat 3.0 =)  The new search stuff IS a pretty big deal to me though, some really nice innovations there that would change the way I use the machine.  And the release is still 9 (give or take) months out, so who knows what will be added/changed.

However...

My #1 biggest pain point seems to be fixed.  SMB networking!  The browser interface still sucks, but it seems to work.  And...get this...  Clicking on the "Add username/password to keychain" button not only adds username/password to the keychain, but...it actually works!  No more typing in domain/user/password every...single...time...I connect to a machine!

Also, Safari RSS is nice (buggy, scroll wheel doesn't seem to work with it at the moment).  And the biggest problem I had with Safari before, online banking with Wachovia, is fixed as well!  Even better than in Mozilla (which works overall with a few big bugs).

Several other little quirks I didn't like about Finder, mail, etc seem to have gone away, which is good.

Let's hope the momentum keeps going during the rest of the development cycle.  Because of some very specific problems I still have with Panther I know I'll be upgrading, though so far Tiger definitely doesn't seem to be anywhere near the "must-have" upgrade for the general public that 10.1, 10.2, or even 10.3 were over the previous versions...


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## karavite (Jul 17, 2004)

I will wait patiently for the for-sale release, but I tell you, Spotlight looks really cool. I mean, is the day almost here where I can simply dump all my files in my HD and never waste a minute organizing folders and sub folders again? If so, how will I and others handle our anal retentive tendancies to clean up and organize something that really doesn't need to be cleaned up and organized?  Ripcord is right - this could be a whole new way of life!


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## fryke (Jul 18, 2004)

I guess it'll end up as 'both ways'... You'll still want to organise some things. For me, Spotlight is mainly going to be a thing for all the 'dump-stuff'. I've got a 'Stuff' folder on my desktop as well as a 'current work' stuff, which contains all the things I'm working on that doesn't belong to one of my official projects and/or customers. But I still want to be able to burn a DVD containing all the files that belong to a project and/or customer, and Spotlight won't cut it there initially, since many of the files don't have metadata that make them belong to a project/customer automagically...


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## texanpenguin (Jul 18, 2004)

Search technology will never cure my persistence to be ordered. I'm the kind of person who wants to see Apple introduce Window-lining-up guides like in Interface Builder that align and separate windows by even amounts. I also want the shadows of two inactive windows that touch not to overlap the other windows - that upsets my anal retention .


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## btoth (Jul 18, 2004)

Has Tiger added any way to move files in the Finder without using drag & drop?  My PowerBook is my primary work computer but I _really_ miss having the Cut function for files that Windows (or any Linux GUI) has.  It seems like such a simple addition and I mentioned it in the OS X feedback about 20 times I think.  Keyboard shortcuts are always faster than drag & drop.


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## ElDiabloConCaca (Jul 18, 2004)

You can use Command-C and Command-V to copy and paste files just as you would in Windows in Panther.

Cut doesn't seem to work, though.


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## karavite (Jul 18, 2004)

fryke said:
			
		

> I guess it'll end up as 'both ways'... You'll still want to organise some things. For me, Spotlight is mainly going to be a thing for all the 'dump-stuff'. I've got a 'Stuff' folder on my desktop as well as a 'current work' stuff, which contains all the things I'm working on that doesn't belong to one of my official projects and/or customers....



I have a few of those too! I didn't even think of that - my "Things to file" folder alias is on my desktop and it is HUGE and I rarely find time to go through it. Of course, there will be plenty of organizing chores for those who want them, but it is nice to know we won't be limited with our filing or lack thereof!


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## Ripcord (Jul 18, 2004)

karavite said:
			
		

> I mean, is the day almost here where I can simply dump all my files in my HD and never waste a minute organizing folders and sub folders again?



I think the Spotlight stuff is definitely going to be a big deal, especially for people who are willing to change their organizational habits or to spend a little bit of time exploring how well this will work for them.  As Fryke said, it probably won't mean you won't want to organize at ALL, but I think users are going to be able to forget, for the most part, about how things are actually structured on disk, like in iPhoto and iTunes.

I'd definitely be surprised if this is what MS has in mind for their little WinFS thing, though now that they're getting a taste of what Apple's doing, well, they DO still have a couple of years to go before Longhorn.

One thing that disappointed me just a tad is that the "search-in-file" capabilities definitely aren't as all-encompassing as I'd thought.  There's definitely a limited set of file-formats that it will work with (10 listed in the initial docs), and for more formats to be supported, supposedly _someone_ (Apple, most likely?) will need to extend Spotlight.

This worries me a little, because Apple hasn't had a great track-record of a lot of these things.  iSync and mobile devices jumps out at me - I *still* can't completely take advantage of my Nokia 3650 phone (or the majority of Series 60 phones) nearly a year after I bought it, and I'm completely at Apple's mercy for updates and support.  Same thing for iPhoto and camera support, though I haven't personally had any problems in that area yet.  I suppose if I was seeing, say, monthly updates from Apple providing new/updated device support (come on, Nokia 6600 support is extremely simple thing versus other Series 60 phones!) I guess I'd feel a bit more comfortable, but I'm not.


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## karavite (Jul 19, 2004)

I think I will be able to use Spotlight and change some of my organizing habits. I'm thinking of iPhoto and how it really bothered me at first to let it take care of creating it's own filing system with all my pictures (iTunes too), but I let myself go and it is a big help.


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## btoth (Jul 20, 2004)

ElDiabloConCaca said:
			
		

> You can use Command-C and Command-V to copy and paste files just as you would in Windows in Panther.
> 
> Cut doesn't seem to work, though.



Bah, Apple needs a simple way to move files.  Drag & drop just doesn't cut it when a simple 1) select all files to move 2) Edit > Cut 3) Edit > Paste where you want it works so much faster and is less prone to dropping somewhere by accident.  It's also much faster when you want to move a file to it's parent directory.


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