# Do you stand behind your country?



## Ricky (Jul 6, 2003)

Americans,

As many of us disagree with President Bush and the military's actions in the past few months, I've noticed a sharp decline in the support of our nation.  I sometimes wonder if there was another war going on with Bush at the helm, large enough to cause the draft to come into play, would any of you fight for our country, or rather run off across a border than support the military's decisions?

Do you stand behind America?  I still do, because I have hope for a better leader next election.  However, it's not the leader that makes up America, it's the people...

Just something I would throw out there and see what happened from it.


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## Reality (Jul 6, 2003)

Very interesting question. Hm, though finding those weapons of mass D would have been a big mural boost for my support for him I have understanding you just can't expect them to fall in your lap when the country was all ready preparing for you. I really don't like the idea of going to another war if the possibility is there. I mean he not any worse then our last president but do I stand behind America, my home. I go to war to protect my family but I certainly hope it doesn't come to that. And I agree, it's the people who make the U>S what it is but I do fell a respectable leader is good.


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## adambyte (Jul 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ricky _
> *As many of us disagree with President Bush and the military's actions in the past few months, I've noticed a sharp decline in the support of our nation. *



Actually, THIS is in difficult question right here. To many people, "support" means blind faith in their leader. To others, "support" means standing up for what they believe in, based upon the rights that the old white guys from the 1700s gave us. (Free speech, right to assembly, and all that good stuff)

I saw a bumper sticker that said something like this:

"I support my country, but my government scares me."



> *I sometimes wonder if there was another war going on with Bush at the helm, large enough to cause the draft to come into play, would any of you fight for our country, or rather run off across a border than support the military's decisions? *



Well, this all depends... is this a cause I believe in? Am I really defending my country, or just doing one of these uncalled for-Iraq-like wars?

Let's put it this way... If WWIII comes, my parents have offered to take a road trip with me. 

or, I could just say no, and maybe just hang around in jail for the duration of the war. When people ask me "Why were you in jail?" I can just say "I didn't want to go to war." I have my moral and philosophical reasons.


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## Ugg (Jul 6, 2003)

Run is what I'd do.  gw did!  

http://www.motherjones.com/news/outfront/2003/02/ma_217_01.html

Seriously though, it would depend upon the war.  The war in Iraq was pre-emptive and ill-advised.  If another country attacked the US then yes, I would.  If it was a pre-emptive strike against N Korea then no.  I stand behind the principles that America was founded on but I find it very difficult to stand behind the current administration and the interventionist policies of the state department and the pentagon of the last ~50 years.


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## Nizzarr (Jul 6, 2003)

Your german?


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## Nizzarr (Jul 6, 2003)

I would never fight, Move to Canada.


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## Androo (Jul 7, 2003)

i live in canada... the weather is nice except for the cold winters, where there is snow. Toronto is the best place to be, beacuse it has easy access to New York, like the city called Buffalo, which i go to often (a 4 hour drive i think, without traffic jams).
Everyone! COME TO CANADA!
(This message has been brought to you by the Government of Canada).
Canada doesnt get into wars, it just helps USA with their wars.


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## adambyte (Jul 7, 2003)

lol. Isn't there a "Switch" to Canada web site somewhere?


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## Randman (Jul 7, 2003)

Just avoid any place with crowds and make sure your surgical mask is of the kind with static electricity in order to kill Sars. And don't forget the lousy exchange rate and that all the good hockey teams move south.  
  Anyway, personally I think it's a weak question from someone looking to troll about. The question is too vague. Depends on the circumstances; always has, always will.


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## toast (Jul 7, 2003)

I'm French. 

I disagree with about 80% of my president's decisions. I disagree with about 80% military actions of my own country, as well as with its military inaction (Chechnya).

I've noticed a sharp decline in the support of our nation, just like Ricky. I do stand behind myself, I do not stand behind France. I'll fight for my own opinions, not my country's.  I have no hope for a better leader next election. I do not trust the masses more than the government.

Although France cannot do this in practice, if I were to receive a smart letter telling me I should kiss my relatives and fly to Third World to bomb people, I'd tell them to peace off.


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## Darkshadow (Jul 7, 2003)

I didn't support GW when I was living in Texas and he was the governor. 

I told people not to vote for him, but did anyone listen to me? 

I seem to remember getting into this same discussion in another thread a while back...anyway, I stand behind my country, but don't give a damn about the government. 

If we had a draft (which I kinda doubt would happen at the moment, unless GW went crazy and decided to take on China), I'd most likely do it, unless I really thought the war was totally pointless.  Then I'd probably stop to think about it.


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## toast (Jul 7, 2003)

Darkshadow for President ! 
BTW, there's a nice candidate selector here. Guess what I obtained.


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## Randman (Jul 7, 2003)

If you look at American history, the US was in an isolationist mood in the late 1930s and early '40s. Americans weren't interested in fighting a second European war. Then Pearl Harbor happened and people joined up, not so much to push the ideology of their leaders or their country's poltical motives, but to do something for the good of man and in defense of their homes and loved ones. That's a big difference than today. Everyone was touched in some way by 9/11 (and not just Americans), but life quickly returned to normal. Few sacrifices had to made other than longer lines at airports and a slight rise in gas prices. And the other military involvements? Little impact for civilians. Lots of differences, hence the weakness of the wind-up that started this post.


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## habilis (Jul 7, 2003)

I have a 6 foot wide American flag on my front porch. I love my country and I would give my life to defend it against Canada. 

But seriously though, this isn't a bad place to live. Hard work is rewarded well here.


BTW: my G4 died last night, see this thread


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## Reality (Jul 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Darkshadow _
> *I told people not to vote for him, but did anyone listen to me? *



Hahah, no offence Darkshadow but if you walked up to me a told me not to vote for so and so. I wouldn't listen also.


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## Cat (Jul 7, 2003)

> I have a 6 foot wide American flag on my front porch.



... compensating for something? ...


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## toast (Jul 7, 2003)

I have an Exorcist poster  that goes higher than my highest wall. Never look at it at night.


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## Darkshadow (Jul 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Reality _
> *Hahah, no offence Darkshadow but if you walked up to me a told me not to vote for so and so. I wouldn't listen also.  *



None taken.   But I _did_ tell people I was speaking from experience...ah well.  Guess nobody listens to us shadows. 

Um...toast...how the heck do you hang up a poster that's bigger than your wall?


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## habilis (Jul 7, 2003)

cat


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## toast (Jul 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Darkshadow _
> *Um...toast...how the heck do you hang up a poster that's bigger than your wall?  *



I use Blu-Tak. Wonderful thing my English teacher made me discover at 6. At the time, I played with it all the time, I even stole some in her desk. Now I hang up scary stuff on walls using the same Blu-Tak over the years.


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## Ugg (Jul 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Nizzarr _
> *Your german? *



Nope, American.  Aber im Herzen bin ich Deutscher.

I use the flag in a couple other forums and it can create some interesting reactions.


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## Ugg (Jul 9, 2003)

The country I would stand behind would have French/N. Italian chefs/food, Australian wanderlust, Canadian sense of humor, Czech beer, German autobahns (with less traffic, please) American computers (as long as they were Macs), Finnish education, Mexican beaches, the cleanliness of Singapore, Dutch multilingualism, an Indian English accent, the Highlands of Kenya, the graciousness of polynesia, Yemenese coffee, the foreign policy of Finland (didn't mean to include two of any one country but they are both exceptional), the industriousness of the Koreans, the order of Japan, the south Island of New Zealand.  Well, I guess you get the picture.  



habilis probably uses the flag to hide behind when his sister in law comes over


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## Darkshadow (Jul 9, 2003)

Hmm...I must say, I've never tried Czech beer.  Any good?

And ya skipped spirit in that list...the spirit of what country would you want?  (Spirit as in their enthusiasms...basically, I suppose, their uniqueness )


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## habilis (Jul 9, 2003)

> _ by Ugg _
> habilis probably uses the flag to hide behind when his sister in law comes over








I'll drink to that.

And out of curiosity, what's so great about Finland's foreign policy? I'm admittedly not up to date on the nuances of Finnish politics.


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## monktus (Jul 9, 2003)

I think I'll go and live in your country Ugg 

Darkshadow, you've never tried Czech beer?! Go and buy some Staroprammen, or Budvar, there are loads of them, Czech beer is lovely!

This is an interesting thread, I've thought about this sort of thing before. I live in the UK and of course we ended up in Iraq too. The draft issue to me is one about personal morals rather than blind faith in your government, as was mentioned by someone else. There is a big difference between a draft for a war in Iraq than say World War II. I think that we'd all agree that the war against Nazism was a fight that would have effected all of us directly and that everyone had a unaminous opinion of. Personally I would not automatically go to war for my country. If it was a situation like in 1939, I'd say I would. If I was drafted to go to Iraq or North Korea I certainly would not. I'm not going to risk my life in another Vietnam.

Something similar crossed my mind the other day, its not in the same league but still important (maybe not so much to Americans but to Europeans certainly). There is a new EU convention being drafted that basically ties together all of the EU constitutional treaties (there are 4 I think) into one. The UK unfortunately has a fairly vocal anti-Europe faction in the form of many Conservatives and the tabloid media who are arguing for a referendum on this. The problem is that if there was a referendum, there is the possibility of our tabloids mobilising Joe Schmoe to vote no (alliteration not intended). This would have the disasterous effect pulling out of the EU and basically completely f**cking Britain's economy. I thought that if that was to happen, I would have to seriously consider leaving the country, which scraed me a bit. Along the same lines of the potential unneccesary conflicts that could happen, I thought that it wouldn't take much to make a very very big change to my country. So big that I'd have to consider leaving. Now I'd like to see an independent Scotland but I'm fairly glad that I'm from here and I'm reasonably content being a British citizen, but my point is (sorry I'm rambling), its frightening that its not enormously unlikely that there would be a big enough change in the world that some of us would have to consider leaving the place we were born.


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## Ugg (Jul 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by habilis _
> *And out of curiosity, what's so great about Finland's foreign policy? I'm admittedly not up to date on the nuances of Finnish politics. *



It's less of an issue now, but during the cold war the term "Finlandization" was coined to indicate foreign policy that was very cautious and pragmatic.  Finland was flanked by the Soviet Union to the east and north and Europe and NATO to the south and west.  Finland was very good at finding the middle way and balancing the conflicting desires of its neighbors.  The Soviet Union left it alone because Finland refused to cave in to NATO (read US) demands that it become a greater military power and the US was forced to let Finland make its own way unlike Germany.  

It was a unique situation and one not easily replicated in the rest of the world but Costa Rica is a country that has similar policies and has a very vibrant economy.  It's not something everyone can practice but for those who have it has led to a much higher standard of living.


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