# can YOU live without Microsoft?



## senne (Apr 10, 2002)

can YOU live without Microsoft?






senne.


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## nkuvu (Apr 10, 2002)

This seems like a loaded question.  I voted yes (like everyone else so far) but now that I think about it, maybe no.  The reason I say that is that there are a lot of websites that depend upon Microsoft OSs, applications, web servers, etc.  I'd love to say that every site I visit is run on an OS X or Unix box running Apache, but I can't say that.  I'd love to say that every web site I enjoy is coded without the use of tools like Frontpage.  Nope, can't say that either.

On my personal machine, I don't use any MS apps.  Which is not too surprising in a forum for people running OS X.  But What about all of the other companies that use MS technology (such as it is)?


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## scruffy (Apr 10, 2002)

If only everyone else would, it would be much easier though...


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## RacerX (Apr 10, 2002)

Could I personally live without Microsoft (as in my usage of MS products)... yes, for the most part. The only copies of any MS products I have on my system are for reading things sent to me from others or viewing sites that don't use W3C standard code.

Could the world in large live without MS... yes. If everything MS vanished today, we would all be in a little better place (though not as good as if they had vanished five years ago). We would see things like OS/2 Warp make a big come back in the personal computing market. And the web would be a much better place (considering Windows minority status as a web server, it still accounted for a majority of the problems on the internet... IIS is an unparalleled security failure that hackers just can't seem to get enough of). I would hope in this better world, formats would become unproprietary standards so that you would have any number of apps that could read a given type of document (sorta like jpg, gif, and tiff, or even to some degree _Rich Text Format_). Microsoft's primary control over the computer world is Office, and I have felt that more than any other possible punishment for Microsoft, making the Office documents format an open source format that MS could not vary from and than anyone could use for their products would end Microsoft's rain of terror. As for FrontPage, I have never quite understood  why anyone would use it to make a web page other than the fact that it is bundled with Office. Maybe without FrontPage on the market Adobe would bring back PageMill.

As for companies that use MS products, it is often been the path of least resistance rather than picking the best solution. Microsoft's monopoly means that they can put out a mediocre enterprise solution, and people buy it without doing any research to see if there could be a better solution for their needs. I can't think of anything MS does that is not replaceable, often with added benefits.

Think about this, how many people with _no_ computer experience entered the IT/IS world by taking MCSE courses? Are those people even aware of alternatives? Would they even try to give their future employers non-Microsoft solutions? Ask the average IT person about anything else other than Microsoft products and watch the reaction... which is usually distaste if MS has a competing product or they are completely oblivious to an alternative's existence (I tried this with Solaris and StarOffice, it was funny).

The point is, we are still at a point where the shadow of Microsoft has not killed off all the other alternatives that are out there.


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## nkuvu (Apr 10, 2002)

I agree that there are a lot of alternatives to MS software.  But I do feel that if all MS software suddenly stopped working (irrevocably, not just a crash like normal  ) there would be a lot of effort to get everything up and running again.  Specfically because so many people use MS and don't know about the alternatives...

Specifically, there are a lot of companies who use MS operating systems that would have to suddenly replace not just the software, but a lot of the knowledge accumulated for that software.  Think of the number of NT admins who know nothing of Unix (shame!).  I think that the Internet would be scarcely affected (oh no, fewer viruses!  ) but a lot of Intranets would collapse immediately...


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## AdmiralAK (Apr 10, 2002)

I live 90% sans microsoft 
I only have 3 things microsoft

1) Explorer for those pesky sites
2) Office for those pesky co-workers
3) Winblows (in VPC) for job training 


Tell you one good thing about winblows, it creates demand for me to fix things and that way I make $$$  hehehehehe


Admiral


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## ddma (Apr 10, 2002)

This is a hard question to answer. For me, I will say I need Microsoft if I need it. Like say, when I am browsering a homepage that is optimized for MS browser, I must have to stuck with IE... And for the reason, why don't I use IE as my primary browser if every home page goes for it? I don't see any browsers on Mac could totally replace IE currently. Like say, OmniWeb is great, but it doesn't support CSS very well. Like say, Netscape 6, but it doesn't have a good UI and slow (compare with IE). Why I have to give up using IE if it has fulfilled my requirements? Because of the name of Microsoft? I am not a stupid computer user. I just choose the right application to do the right thing.


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## ebolag4 (Apr 10, 2002)

The main advantage for M$ being around is that it fosters competition.

I truly believe that Apple would still be a great innovator of software, but would it push as hard if it didn't have M$ to contend with. I'm not really sure on that score.

To top it all off, how many of us would be the Mac users we are today (as far as creativity, attitude, outlook, etc.) if we did not have M$ around to hate. Much of the shareware community is spurred on by the desire to do something better on a Mac than on Windows.

Like it or not, our lives may be, I said may be, somewhat better because Billy boy started his little company.


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## RacerX (Apr 10, 2002)

nkuvu,

I think that, considering the amount of time and effort used to repair and/or replace systems after being hit with a number of viruses, it would be (in the long run) less expensive to retrain Windows support people. It is funny when you think about it, but some of the viruses in the last couple years have totally shut down some companies (and in some cases more than once). The question becomes _when is a bad thing bad enough to force a change._ Microsoft's reputation is not hurting enough to make them take responsibility, but if they started to loss some large accounts, that would get them to stop releasing software where every security hole is just relabeled as a new feature.

But as Admiral said, MS is good for business (at least my business).


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## cybowolf (Apr 10, 2002)

I could live without my PC right now, so long as someone ported Dark Age of Camelot to Mac 

-cybowolf


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## Koelling (Apr 10, 2002)

I haven't used something Microsoft for a long while now. I am getting to the point where I will have to invest in something that will be compatible with Microsoft to continue this trend but if the Microsoft influence was not there I would not only survive as normal, I would probably thrive. There is nothing in my life that Microsoft makes better. Word documents don't look prettier than Text Edit documents, they are just different and not backwards compatible. 

For some people this isn't true but for me, Microsoft could eat s*** and die for all I care.


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## julguribye (Apr 10, 2002)

If Microsoft died, who would we then hate?


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## themacko (Apr 10, 2002)

Now that I think about it, I use several of MS's products.  I use IE as my main browser, Office for all my homework, MSN Messenger to talk with some people and I have an XBox.

Microsoft isn't horrible, or at least they haven't done anything to me personaly which would make me want to boycott the company.  Then again, I did have to use Windows ME for about a year, and also Microsoft Works which isn't compatable with Word .. that was a fiasco.  Oh well.


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## ddma (Apr 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by julguribye _
> *If Microsoft died, who would we then hate? *



Apple, because it killed Microsoft.


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## nkuvu (Apr 10, 2002)

> I think that, considering the amount of time and effort used to repair and/or replace systems after being hit with a number of viruses, it would be (in the long run) less expensive to retrain Windows support people.


I fully agree.  My point is that there would be that initial stumbling period in which a number of companies may not survive.


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## mrfluffy (Apr 10, 2002)

i cant for 2 reasons
1. my mouse is an intellimouse
2. i have to use office (HAVE to) to pass my qualification at college, what a load of crap, the course sucks.


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## Valrus (Apr 10, 2002)

I personally could live without Microsoft, I think. The only MS product I have on my computer (to the best of my knowledge) is Internet Exploder, and it's not even in my dock any more because I'm phasing it out and Mozilla and Navigator/Chimera/whatever in.

I use Proteus and/or Fire for chatting, and LaTeX for writing papers. If I need to read a word document I'll use antiword, and I don't come across other types of Office documents very often.

I can't fathom what the global consequences would be if every piece of Microsoft software disappeared off the face of the earth, and I don't know how many of my favorite websites and perhaps companies would go kaput just like that (I'd probably be left without a job this summer), but if I had to delete all my MS apps from my personal computer _right now_, I could do it, and I wouldn't mind, and it wouldn't even take too long. I just keep IE around in case I find a website that Mozilla or Chimera can't handle.

-the valrus


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## dricci (Apr 10, 2002)

You mean, could I transition to a world where the Internet and Computing is based on open standards instead of proprietary (stolen) formats that require regular fees to Microsoft?

Yes. In fact, I pretty much live my life like that now.

I refuse to use Office, I try to create sites in standard HTML, I use standards-based web browsers (Read: Not IE), I refuse to encourage anyone to use an IIS webserver, I save files as txt, rtf, or pdf, and I just say no to Windows. (And I don't use a Microsoft mouse.)

I think I'm off to a good start.


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## RacerX (Apr 10, 2002)

> _said by nkuvu _
> *I fully agree.  My point is that there would be that initial stumbling period in which a number of companies may not survive. *



I realized that which was why I softened my position to the possibility of Microsoft improving their products as a result. Honestly, I would just like to see a more balanced market. Even with all of Microsoft's security problems (vast as they are), viruses would have a hard time moving in an environment were Microsoft had less than 70% of the market share.

We should all realize that Microsoft doesn't want to have to compete. They have come up with a business plan that where removing competitors is better for them than competing directly. Think about Apple, Sun, IBM or SGI, how much do they spend on their operating systems and software? Do you guys think Microsoft spends that much more on their operating systems and software? Now consider the profit earned by each company, Microsoft makes more than an order of magnitude profit on their products... and it is still not enough for them.

And consider this... What do you think Microsoft's biggest problem in the market is today? As it turns out, it is Office 97. People who bought Office 97 and were happy with it (and didn't upgrade to Office 2000) was the biggest problem facing Microsoft in the computer software market over the last couple years. Every person using Office 97 is considered lost revenue by Microsoft. This was the reason behind a change in licensing by Microsoft to try and get customers to pay quarterly or yearly for Microsoft products (and the force registration that came with it). If Microsoft has it their way, computer users would have to be sending a check to them on a regular basis to continue to use their system or software. The massive profits for selling software just wasn't enough for Microsoft, they want continuous revenue coming in from everyone.

Also please don't think this is going to stop at just Microsoft products, because they have their eye on trying to do the same thing with internet access. Their goal, and this is not an exaggeration, is that everyone who uses the internet must be paying Microsoft for their access in one way or another.


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## voice- (Apr 10, 2002)

I do have an Intellimouse, but I could live without it...Logitech does a good enough job for me to ditch that MS product.
Come to think of it, there isn't one single MS product I can't be without.


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## Matrix Agent (Apr 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RacerX _
> *
> 
> The massive profits for selling software just wasn't enough for Microsoft, they want continuous revenue coming in from everyone.
> ...



Microsoft: global landlord of the computational slums.

Think about it. A system like you describe may drive away a few users, but it will just reenforce everyone else's dependence on MS products, by not only forcing the old office 97 users to upgrade (MS will problably blame "incompatabilities"), but by putting everyone on their knees before MS. Payment for services to MS puts them in the position to pull the floor out from under anyone at any time. Thats the type of power that can crush a business or influence political leaders. (Not to say that has not already been done.)

I hate to be the crazy conspiracy guy, but if MS gets it way, it will basically own the medium within which the world works, and it has the choice of who has it and who doesn't have it. All of a sudden MS can claim to have conscience, and can start dening certain groups access. Somewhat parallel to Iraq's choice to not export oil, in a veiled attempt to gain international political clout.

Anyone else care to speculate?


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## Valrus (Apr 10, 2002)

Bastards. Every last one of them.

-the valrus


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## RacerX (Apr 10, 2002)

Thing is Microsoft is just a habit. And all you have to do to kick the habit is say _no, today I am not using a Microsoft product (unless I'm force to because of work)_. You just have to say _no_. Of course since the last update of IE in Mac OS X it has been very easy for me to do that, IE won't stay up for more than a few minutes at a time anymore.


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## Jayem (Apr 10, 2002)

Its as simple as this. *IF* microsoft wasn't as huge as they are today, then yes. However, beeing on how they are giants, life without MS would be a big hassel. 1st off I couldn't play counter-strike... and that in itself is a fucking sin. Secondly, ordering food at my local Taco Bell would take 5x as long, and when I'm drunk, I get impatient. Lastly, there wouldnt be anyone to preach to about how much MS is "evil", so that would take out a good 4 hours of my daily work routine...what the hell am I gonna do with all that extra time? work??? I think not.

Seriously though, MS does play a huge part in everyone's daily life, whether one knows it or not. Actually, its whether you like it or not.


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## BlingBling 3k12 (Apr 10, 2002)

no i can't... i need my (as 90% or more of you would say) CRAPPY @$$ FrontPage 2002


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## lonny (Apr 11, 2002)

I have no apps on my mac from that company....


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## ddma (Apr 11, 2002)

Just an idea suddenly poped into my head: Why a Windows user can live without any Apple products while we still have to use Microsoft's?

 

Because Apple has her own kingdom and citizens like us and we are not closed mind. We always welcome other foreigner. Right?


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## fiznutz (Apr 11, 2002)

http://www.vcnet.com/bms/departments/innovation.shtml
http://www.fuckmicrosoft.com/content/whatsbad.shtml
educational reading!


Btw think about how much of your hard earned tax money that ends up in microsofts pockets


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## lonny (Apr 11, 2002)

I think it's all about not believing the hype.
They tell you you need Office on every single computer.
Well.. I don't. I have Apple Works and it works just fine for me.

How many users do actually need Excel or PowerPoint?
And even RTF is enough for most people's writing needs.

I don't need IE. Nor do I need crappy messengers.
I stopped using my hotmail account soon after M$ bought the company.

There's loads of freebie messengers out there anyway.

Sure, I do use M$ crap at work. But for personal use... I still have to find one of their applications I CAN'T do without.

There's something else I still need to find out:
a useful, common, and original technology thay everyone uses now which was actually INVENTED or, at least,  pioneered and divulgated by M$.

web?                        Netscape
email?                       Eudora
mp3's?                      Fraunhofer
streaming media?     Real
IM?                            ICQ
DVD?                         Apple
USB?                         Apple
Firewire?                   Apple


Tell me if I'm missing something...


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## RacerX (Apr 11, 2002)

That should be:

web? Mosaic

Which NCSA gave up to Microsoft which became Internet Explorer (sad when things can be corrupted so easily   ).


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## cybergoober (Apr 11, 2002)

Unfortunately I can't. I could, but can't. Occasionally I get a spreadsheet that AW chokes on, then have to fire up Excel v.X just to read the damn thing. Then it turns out that I could care less about the inane crap in said spreadsheet. *Sigh* .
Then there's the kicker my wife would _totally_ flip out if she couldn't use Word for her school papers any more. She seems to be totally unwilling to learn anything else. She knows Word. End of story.

Oh, well.


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## Koelling (Apr 11, 2002)

I am constantly battling with people who say that: "I know ____. I do ____ end of story." I think it is so sad that I live in America which was founded on the idea of freedom yet people are stuck in self imposed prisons. People ask me why I use a Mac and why I don't use Microsoft products and I tell them "Have you ever given a Mac a chance? Have you ever given anything other that Microsoft Word a chance? Once you have considered all the options and have a real argument then I will answer you."

Yet they just keep on singing their chain gang songs and hacking at the weeds on the side of the road even though they have the key in their pocket and the man with the dark sunglasses has stopped watching.


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## neutrino23 (Apr 11, 2002)

I could live happily without any m$ apps. 

OW and Netscape can handle all the sites I've seen.
Mariner can open excel files (as can another spread sheet whose name escapes me just now).
Word docs can be viewed in AW or with Maclinkplus.
Nisus is my preferred app if I need to make a document.
Tex-Edit Plus is my preffered app for less complicated documents.
Mail in OS X is so far adequate for my email needs.
The rest of the applications I use are unrelated to any ms products.

I have heard that I need to do an online evaluation with my company and that it only works with a certain version of IE (how stupid is that!!!). I'll try to sneak through with OW spoofing as IE.


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## Nummi_G4 (Apr 12, 2002)

Crap! I voted wrong!  subtract one from "No" and add one to "Yes"   I could live without M$ ! I want to live w/out M$!


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## FrgMstr (Apr 12, 2002)

If MS wasnt around Crackers would simply write viruses for the next most popular Platform, one will always be replaced with another.


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## putamare (Apr 12, 2002)

Since there are about twice as many Apache servers as MSII, by your logic Apache should've been plagued by more worms. But to date, hasn't the biggest problem with worms and Apache been a NIMDA or CODE RED infected MSII server filling up their logs?


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## prime (Apr 12, 2002)

I can almost live w/o Microsoft.  The only MS products I use are Outlook Express in OS 9 (never use OS 9, though) and Entourage for Mac OS X.  Soon as I learn of a nice OS X mail program for OS X that has every thing I need and looks good, I'll abandon MS.


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## RacerX (Apr 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by FrgMstr _
> *...Crackers would simply write viruses for the next most popular Platform... *



Okay... I think either FrgMstr is on something while posting _or_ he has fallen down and hit his head and is in need of some serious help.


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## putamare (Apr 12, 2002)

could he be punch-drunk? it can't be safe getting hit that many times...


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## Sloane (Apr 13, 2002)

Hmmm...... wish I could live without that bitch, but I use IE & Outlook.


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## kvist (Apr 14, 2002)

Microsoft (pyttemjuk in swedish, and I won't translate!) is needed as a reference point in the computer universe. I'm by no means a fan of their products, but some things they do very well. 

Sure, Apple has been the leading edge in innovations for a very long time now, but still the average user uses a Wintel computer and as usual, people are a little afraid of beeing at the cutting edge. 

In a sense, Microsoft benefits from the fact that others, like Apple, shows them what works on a computer. There's no risk in copying working ideas.

Personally I see a future where everything is UNIX in one form or another. In this Apple is really a follower of the Linux trend, although X is a little more user friendly. 

When will Microsoft follow?

/Björn


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## didde (Apr 14, 2002)

Life without Word? Come on you people.. What are you going to send to your clients and friends when they need an "official document"? Write one in Write Text? I doubt it.

They make great products.. Entourage beats the crap out of Mail.app.

But hey, that's just my opinion.


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## RacerX (Apr 14, 2002)

> _by kvist_
> *Personally I see a future where everything is UNIX in one form or another. In this Apple is really a follower of the Linux trend, although X is a little more user friendly.*



I think I'll need to take issue with that small statement (meaning I agree with the rest). From my point of view Apple divided into to companies back in the mid 80's, Apple and NeXT. By 1989, NeXT released it's first version of it's operating system for it new NeXTcube computer know then as NeXTstep 0.8. Apple was also working on a new version of it's operating system in 1988 call A/UX 1.0 (Apple UniX, SVR2.2 with Apple's Finder in place of X Windows, though Apple did include it's own complete version of the X Window System that can run within the Finder called MacX). At this point in time it is important to note that both Apple's and NeXT's new operating systems are based on commercial versions of UNIX (AT&T's System V for A/UX and 4.3BSD/Mach for NeXTstep) which kept the price upwards of $800.

Point is, Linux wasn't released until 1991. Apple continued with A/UX, but dropped it when they moved to PowerPC (A/UX was not popular, so Apple decided to use IBM's AIX for there higher end servers instead of porting A/UX and move all their energies to Copland). NeXT continued on with other companies (like Sun) noticing the development environment. In 1995 Sun and NeXT worked together to port both the whole GUI/APIs (basically everything that was on top of the 4.3BSD/Mach system) to the SunOS and the development/runtime environment to Solaris and Windows. This new modular version was given a general name of OpenStep (OPENSTEP was the operating system, OpenStep was the GUI/runtime). That's about were Apple jumped in and bought NeXT.

The contribution of Linux was mainly forcing down the price of other versions of UNIX. The price of NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP in 1995 was $800 (with an additional $5000 for the developers tools) and would run on your average PC (that is, it would run even on a 486DX with 16MB of RAM and a 120MB hard drive). Mac OS X Server 1.0 was $500 when released, and Mac OS X was $130 (for both the OS and the developers tools). The fact that we don't have to pay huge amounts for our current OS is the one thing we can thank Linux for.


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## RacerX (Apr 14, 2002)

> _ by didde _
> *Life without Word? Come on you people.. What are you going to send to your clients and friends when they need an "official document"? Write one in Write Text? I doubt it.*



You could use anything you want (including Word), and then send it as a pdf. If it is an _official_ document, it should not need editing anyway.

When I found out that Word 98 sent extra info from my system with every Word doc, that pretty much killed using Word for me. I had just finished writing a letter shortly before I had heard about this. I opened the letter in BBEdit and found that it included links to the last 15 web sites I had visited. 

Sorry, but the security problems with Microsoft products, even some of the Mac versions, just makes it to high a price for me to pay to use them (as if the actual price tag wasn't high enough  ).


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## nkuvu (Apr 14, 2002)

> Life without Word? Come on you people.. What are you going to send to your clients and friends when they need an "official document"? Write one in Write Text? I doubt it.


I don't see any problems with PDF for files that don't need to be edited, or RTF for files that do.  If I _really_ want to write a Word-compatible file, I use AW and "Save As...".

I've never used Entourage, so I can't say how good it is.  Mail works fine for me.  I do, however take issue with Outlook and OE on Windows -- specifically the "feature" which automatically opens attachments in emails.  This is the stupidest security breach I think I have ever heard of.

Saying that OS X is a little more user friendly than Linux is like saying sugar is a little sweeter than flour.  I'd be perfectly comfortable giving OS X to my grandmother -- setup of OS X is ridiculously easy, like all Macintosh products that I have ever seen.


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## JakPuma (Apr 14, 2002)

I sorta can't live without MS.  There are only 2 products from them I use. They are: IE(cause it works best) and WinCE (if its being used  on a Sega Dreamcast, as most classic arcade game collections use it, but real games that use it SUCK, as the whole game stops for like 3 sec to load like 2 frames according to ODCM, but most use the Katana OS from Sega (Katana was a DC code name along with Dural and Blackbelt, and Katana  is stamped on literally every internal circuit board).


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## Valrus (Apr 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by didde _
> *Life without Word? Come on you people.. What are you going to send to your clients and friends when they need an "official document"? Write one in Write Text? I doubt it.
> *



LaTeX all the way.

Nothing written in Word can look more official.

-the valrus


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## kvist (Apr 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nkuvu _
> *
> Saying that OS X is a little more user friendly than Linux is like saying sugar is a little sweeter than flour.  I'd be perfectly comfortable giving OS X to my grandmother -- setup of OS X is ridiculously easy, like all Macintosh products that I have ever seen. *



Yes (I guess I made the statement) and I got an iMac to my father, who's 70+ and he can get around OS X prety well by now.

However, OS X still has a long way to go. We have made a giant leap BACKWARDS in terms of productivity, since many of the most essential applications are still not X-native and those who are haven't (in general) added anything that wasn't there under OS 9. 

I'm optimistic for the future. I gather there is work beeing done to let PC-s use Darwin. Am I correct? Now THAT might be a starting point for real worries in the MS board-rooom!


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## .dev.lqd (Apr 14, 2002)

Homogenous computing environments are most susceptible to attack. Even an all Mac shop is more susceptible because the attacker has no need to diversify and can just focus on how to approach one type of system.

If you have several machines interoperating via standard protocols that have been designed to be robust and work across diverse and hostile environments... you end up with a much more difficult task for a would-be attacker. 

Microsoft is responsible for the waves of e-mail worms that flood across the nation and cost millions in support and repair. Why people don't realize this is beyond me. 

I rely on IE because everyone else does... and I need to have an inkling of what they see for my school work (friggin' web pages...)

I do my word processing in Illustrator... spreadsheets too...


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## nkuvu (Apr 14, 2002)

> However, OS X still has a long way to go.


I won't argue that point -- I really like OS X, and I dislike OS 9, so I am biased.

But would you feel comfortable handing a computer and a Linux disk to a new computer user?  I'm quite experienced with computers, and I was able to set up my own FreeBSD box without too much difficulty.  But I think that the general newbie computer user should not be given anything more complicated to install than "Wanna install? Click OK, we'll do the rest".  Linux and BSD are not anywhere near ready for the new computer user.  I'm not just talking about installation of the OS, either.  Changing configuration, installing new apps, diagnosing problems, etc, are all much much much easier on a Mac than Unix.

Windows is somewhere in the middle, IMO.  But less stable than either... 

Another thing to add to the instability and security and price tag of Windows (or any MS app) is the new licensing schemes.  XP is currently the only thing that I know of that forces you into a draconian "don't touch your hardware" idea (which, ironically, is one of the things that x86 users love most about their systems) but I doubt that it will be long before you have to register Office every three to six months to keep working in it.  I also wouldn't be surprised to see a regular (i.e., monthly or yearly) fee to continue to use MS apps.  Sound like I am paranoid?  Probably.  But this is just the direction that MS licensing seems to be going in.  No thank you.

One more piece to add to the anti-MS-for-Nkuvu puzzle.  Windows hides information from its users.  Specifically, web history information.  Like RacerX, I've found hidden information when I poked around on my (Windows) hard drive.  Yes, that is the OS we're talking about.  But I doubt that MS would go to such great lengths to hide history information and not implement that scheme in their best selling apps, like Office.  Full details about these hidden files can be found at
http://www.f___microsoft.com/content/ms-hidden-files.shtml (address censored to protect the innocent).


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## Koelling (Apr 14, 2002)

Go here whether you are a mac user or a windows user... it is important that every computer user knows what they are or are not supporting. Plus it is a very well written article.

http://www.f   microsoft.com/content/whatsbad.shtml

Same censorship mechanism as nkuvu because I fully support all efforts on this board to stay professional.


> BACKWARDS in terms of productivity, since many of the most essential applications are still not X-native and those who are haven't (in general) added anything that wasn't there under OS 9.


 Depending on who you are, this might be true but I can't think of any of those people right now. The fact that (almost) everything you previously used still works in classic (at least software wise, maybe not in hardware) makes every new application a step forward. The UNIX platform has brought me a free image utility which may never be as good as photo shop, but it's Free!

Every major piece of Mac software has been ported plus many that were not in the pre X days.


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## RacerX (Apr 14, 2002)

> _stated in Timothy Macinta article_
> *One example of Microsoft's hostility to its existing customers came in September, 2000. Microsoft demanded that the Virginia Beach government account for all copies of Microsoft software that were in use within the government and provide proof of purchase for each product. The reason? "Nick Psyhogeos, a Washington, D.C.-based attorney for Microsoft, said the firm has found that government agencies sometimes inadvertently acquire counterfeit software." There was no mention of a reason why this particular city government was singled out -- they were not investigated because of something which they did to arouse suspicion, but simply because they were a large organization that Microsoft hoped they could frighten more money out of. The city was presumed guilty until proven innocent and this cost the tax payers a great deal of money as the city reassigned 25 percent of its technical work force to work specifically on the task of generating the information demanded by Microsoft.*



This is exactly what happened to one of my clients. I spent a week going through everything to find every piece of Microsoft software in use and then had to provide proof that the software was legal. Of course other than it being a big pain to hunt threw every thing, it did pay for my PowerBook. 

Still, after all that, I think I would recommend against Microsoft for anyone asking me about getting a system or software.


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## mdnky (Apr 15, 2002)

Of course....it would be the closest thing to heaven on earth.

I don't think the asprin manufacturers would like it, loosing all those clients could put them under...


DEATH to Micro$uck!  Hip, hip, HORAY!


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## toast (Jul 16, 2002)

Though I don't need MS products for myself, customers need them because they don't spend more than one hour a day on their PC and that all they give me is .doc.

Which means I need Word to work. DOCtor and AntiWord are not satisfying with spreadsheets, images, kerning/tracking, ligs.

By the way, the PostScript generated by those .doc converters will mess up in RIPs. Thus, most designers have Word because of the customers. Those who don't and use Quark filters have conversion problems and/or still use MS products _OLE libraries

Hum sorry but what's the point in living without MS ?


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## hulkaros (Jul 16, 2002)

Can I wave my magic wand? Nope! Can I tell God to make 'em dissapear? Nope! Can I command US goverment to break M$ down? Nope! So, what can I do?

First of all:
-You buy a Mac 
-Then you use OmniWeb
-After that you use AppleWorks
-Jaguar and its apps are next
-QuickTimePro6 + DivX is another way
-iApps of course!
-Any Corel, Adobe, Quark, Apple, et al apps are just fine
-MacPlay, Aspyr, et al will provide us with the games
-OpenGL + Quartz + Aqua

And many other things 

However, if Mac in order to earn more consumers MUST have M$ apps then let it be so... At our worst moments another saviour can be Connectix!

Seriously though, M$ can die right now because EASILY I can live without them  As for other people saying that M$ offers us great technology: Maybe... But then again it offers us less choices by being a monopoly, with their products let other people create malicious apps/utils and the worst of all hardware and software in general!


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## xoot (Jul 16, 2002)

I can live without M$. I can download another browser.


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## xaqintosh (Jul 16, 2002)

andyes, I could live w/o microsoft. the only thing I use that is by M$ is IE, and I use it rarely now.


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## SilverBirch (Jul 17, 2002)

I wouldn't want to be without Entourage. Ironic isn't it that the biggest competitor makes the best email / PIM program by a long way.

Why can't other companies come anywhere close to doing something as good as Entourage?


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## ladavacm (Jul 17, 2002)

but I have to qualify that: without MS Office, I cannot work (our clients use it almost exclusively).  Without work, I do not get paid.  Without money, I cannot live.

Result: I cannot live without Microsoft

Qualification number 2: I _could_ change the line of work--I'm just not really good at anything else but the stuff I'm currently doing


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## McMickey (Jul 17, 2002)

I've voted No...I've could have voted Yes...I can live without MS, my clients can't (oh I wished they all bought a Mac..live would B so much easier....). Because my clients use MS I have to use it too. Personally I never use MS unless there's no other way (and that's not often, I even can't think of an example right now )


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## marmotton (Aug 9, 2002)

Saying you don't need MS is like the French saying you don't need to speak English.

Well sorry, but at some point they have to speak it, and you know what? they do, too.


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## pezagent (Aug 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RacerX _
> * Could the world in large live without MS... yes. If everything MS vanished today, we would all be in a little better place (though not as good as if they had vanished five years ago).
> *


How would the demise of Microsoft put us in a better place? 


> * We would see things like OS/2 Warp make a big come back in the personal computing market.
> *


You're kidding me, right? Why don't we just bring back the Commodore 64 while we're at it.


> * And the web would be a much better place (considering Windows minority status as a web server, it still accounted for a majority of the problems on the internet... IIS is an unparalleled security failure that hackers just can't seem to get enough of).*


The web would be a better place? With Netscape and AOL? I don't use my macs for surfing--they're too slow. I get a better experience with Windows, and I'm still using W98.





> *
> I would hope in this better world, formats would become unproprietary standards so that you would have any number of apps that could read a given type of document (sorta like jpg, gif, and tiff, or even to some degree Rich Text Format). *


Please wake up and smell the XML.


> *
> Microsoft's primary control over the computer world is Office, and I have felt that more than any other possible punishment for Microsoft, making the Office documents format an open source format that MS could not vary from and than anyone could use for their products would end Microsoft's rain of terror.
> *


 I think Microsoft has more control over the computer world than Office. Bill Gates isn't rich because of _Office_. Maybe if the dicks that ran Apple into the gutter years ago listened to MS, AppleOS would be on more desktops than Winblows. But Apple was never ready for that, so they blew it. Here's a life lesson for wan: learn how to recognize an opportunity when you see it.





> * As for FrontPage, I have never quite understood  why anyone would use it to make a web page other than the fact that it is bundled with Office. Maybe without FrontPage on the market Adobe would bring back PageMill.*


You're not serious, are you? Adobe has this little number called GoLive, have you heard of it? People probably use FrontPage for the same reasons people used Claris Homepage.


> * As for companies that use MS products, it is often been the path of least resistance rather than picking the best solution.*


I agree with you, but from an idealistic point of view. Business has a profit-agenda and you can't argue with stockholders about what's best for a corporation if change doesn't affect the bottom-line. Sorry, but that's reality.


> * Microsoft's monopoly means that they can put out a mediocre enterprise solution, and people buy it without doing any research to see if there could be a better solution for their needs. I can't think of anything MS does that is not replaceable, often with added benefits.*


Microsoft's monopoly is just like any other monopoly. I don't understand anymore why people are so concerned about Apple's success. Apple used to have a monopoly on the GUI market and they blew it. And if your speaking from an IT perspective about enterprise solutions--well, we're in the corporate political agenda again. Apple hasn't come up with an alternate solution to this problem, either, so whatcha gonna do? As far as Microsoft being replacable, so is Apple or any other system--benefits being subjective.


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## Inline_guy (Aug 11, 2002)

As far as apps I use... Yes.  I do not use many (if any) MicroSoft apps.   My roomate however needs Office for work.

Matthew

:: inlineguy.com ::


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## chevy (Aug 24, 2002)

I could even live without a computer.


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## fryke (Aug 24, 2002)

As the question says 'can' and not 'could', I think it's important to think about whether you really need MS software in your life. If Microsoft vanished this very day - and all Microsoft software would vanish from my computer, I don't think I'd really have a problem. I'm using OmniWeb instead of IE already, I'm _never_ writing my stories in Microsoft Word now since five years (and I've written quite a few, and yes I've written my first book in 1995 on Microsoft Word 5.1a on a PowerBook 150). I sure have some files to view, but I think there's enough ways to view MS files.

If MS won't vanish today (and I think we can safely assume that), I won't kill Office v. X just yet. Too many people think it's important to send me their texts in Word format (and, of course, to use a funky font). But I shouldn't have bought it, really. I sort of thought that I might start to use Word as my word processor, but TextEdit has everything I need, really, and Okito Composer gives me even more.


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## kommakazi (Aug 24, 2002)

Yes, with great ease.

Anyone can, those who voted no are just too brainwashed to realize the truth. Unless Bill Gates has a death warrent on you stating that if you don't use his products you give him the right to have you beheaded. Who knows, it could be in the Liscence Agreements for all M$ products, nobody just never realized cuz, well, who actually reads that sh*t?  

There's always an alternative. Just because you don't know of it doesn't mean it's not out there. Look around, you may see the light.


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## Oscar Castillo (Aug 25, 2002)

I can certainly live without Microsoft at home.  At work though I do not have any choice in the matter.  Wintel is the platform and I have to recommend software for that platform.


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## mkwan (Sep 16, 2002)

play on a mac, work on a pc so that I can make more $$$ to buy more mac!!!!

I could imagine myself working in Microsoft and I accidently leaked out the Windows source code to the world.  Then, Bill will probably kill me or make the rest of my life miserable.

after that happens....I could start liking Microsoft stuff..... 



10.2 inside


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