# "It Never Crashes" it does...



## Lt Major Burns (May 31, 2005)

it seems to me that the super-stable intuitive, never-go-wrong, much advertised never-crashing just-works Mac OS X... isn't.  

http://www.apple.com/uk/switch/whyswitch/

there's all the problems on windows with the .dlls, but then we get rogue .plist files that need to be trashed, and they are impossible to find, if you don't know where you are looking

there's also permissions. does this _actually_ do anything? i've never seen any diffrence before or after a permissions repair.



> Are you just a tad too well acquainted with the notorious blue screen of death?



kernal panics? a nicely greyed -out, translucent screen of death.  

i know nothings perfect, especially with technology, but i think apple could be a little bit more honest. "it hardly ever crashes", as opposed to "it never crashes" etc...


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## MBHockey (May 31, 2005)

Well any blanket statement about anything should be taken with a grain of salt.  But i have to say my PowerBook never once crashed in 2 years of having it, while in the same time period my parent's PC has crashed 2 times that i can remember -- not a big deal, but i use my powerbook seemingly 24/7 and my parents use the PC every couple of days to check their email for 5 minutes.

However, with my parent's PC, with only 6-8 apps open, you begin to see the horrible multitasking abilities of Windows.  I constantly have 10 apps open on my PowerBook and while both machines have the same amount of ram (although the PC has pc2700 and my powerbook only has PC 133) i never see a slow down

From what i've seen in your other posts, i don't think it's too far off to think there is a hardware problem with your computer.  What do the Apple specialists have to say about your problems?


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## Lt Major Burns (May 31, 2005)

my mac works fine, now... i did have problems around the tiger upgrade, but it seems to have subsided, and i never had it crash, it was minor instability.

i posted this objectively, not as a personal bitch, but because i've seen a general increase in the trend for posts about trashing plists, kernal panics and automatic diagnosing of a permissions problem. has it always been like this? i'm not sure. i suppose it was just a late night gripe....


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## Satcomer (May 31, 2005)

Lt Major Burns said:
			
		

> my mac works fine, now... i did have problems around the tiger upgrade, but it seems to have subsided, and i never had it crash, it was minor instability.
> 
> i posted this objectively, not as a personal bitch, but because i've seen a general increase in the trend for posts about trashing plists, kernal panics and automatic diagnosing of a permissions problem. has it always been like this? i'm not sure. i suppose it was just a late night gripe....



No one said OS X never crashes. The person who thinks that needs his/her head examined. 

Computers are the most complex home tool in most houses today! That is safe to say. I don't know where computer users got the idea that a computer should never be problem free. Strike that, I do know. It was years of marketing! My advise to you, don't believe the hype.


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## Lt Major Burns (May 31, 2005)

Satcomer said:
			
		

> No one said OS X never crashes. The person who thinks that needs his/her head examined.


apple did, on the switch page.  i regret posting this thread. can we close it now? i was in a bad mood   but i'm better now .  i just had a stupid argument with a windows user about the mac/pc debate (started by my first switcher, a girl) after this, and i realised all is well when it is a lot _more_ stable than their boxes. i can run 10 apps and it'll be fine. i don't have to live behind a firewall, and run anti-spy/ad/malware programs weekly, or defrag the HDDs or clean the registry etc.... like anything designed by humans though, human error will surface, in this case, in coding errors, which equate to bugs.  and my mac has far fewer of these than xp. not none, but fewer.

sorry for this stupid thread


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## lurk (May 31, 2005)

You can lock the thread yourself as you are the one that started it.  Look for the little lock thingy.


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## Shookster (Jun 1, 2005)

Lt Major Burns said:
			
		

> apple did, on the switch page.  i regret posting this thread. can we close it now? i was in a bad mood   but i'm better now . i just had a stupid argument with a windows user about the mac/pc debate (started by my first switcher, a girl) after this, and i realised all is well when it is a lot _more_ stable than their boxes. i can run 10 apps and it'll be fine. i don't have to live behind a firewall, and run anti-spy/ad/malware programs weekly, or defrag the HDDs or clean the registry etc.... like anything designed by humans though, human error will surface, in this case, in coding errors, which equate to bugs. and my mac has far fewer of these than xp. not none, but fewer.



I run Firefox on my Windows PC and I don't have problems with spyware / adware etc. It also depends on the kind of sites that you visit. A lot of viruses nowadays are sent via email so if you use prudent email practice, you should be fine.

With that said though, XP is seriously out of date. It was released in 2001 like OS X but has only had two service packs - both of which were designed to fix bugs and security flaws that shouldn't have been in the OS in the first place. And OS X has advanced a fair deal in that time in comparison.

I tend to hibernate my machine (so technically it's running without restarts) but every few weeks I get a BSOD and have to restart it. It doesn't seem to be comfortable with being on for long periods of time despite the fact that I have enough fans to drown out a jet engine.


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## gphillipk (Jun 1, 2005)

I've managed to crash my PB twice by simply plugging in my USB 2 memory stick. That simple. Just plug it in and the translucent screen of death comes up.


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## Ceroc Addict (Jun 1, 2005)

Satcomer said:
			
		

> Computers are the most complex home tool in most houses today! That is safe to say. I don't know where computer users got the idea that a computer should never be problem free.


I think this statement's a sad reflection on how the computer industry managed to hoodwink the average consumer.

If consumers had _demanded_ quality (i.e. took back their computers, or at least refused to get new ones) when they crashed, the industry would be forced to churn out stuff slower (i.e. actually have more quality control) and stop using consumers as crash test dummies.

Microsoft should have stopped existing before the term "Blue screen of death" became a commonly understood (and accepted) expression.

Kap

P.S. Funny sidenote: The browser on the linux box I'm on actually crashed as I submitted this post.


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## contoursvt (Jun 1, 2005)

Cars never break down, TVs never fail, VCRs never chew up tapes, toasters never toast unevenly..etc.... 

Considering WHAT computers to and the complexity, I'd say its much more reliable than any of the stuff above. 

Incidently, my G3 has kernel panics more often than my XP box has blue screens. I've had 3 kernel panics in 1 year and I've had zero bluescreens in 6 months on my new PC.  Bluescreens by the way are mostly caused by bad drivers and nothing else. I'd have control over those drivers. Kernel panics might be caused by drivers as well but I have no control of those, OSX is shipped with what I need so if it crashes for some reason, I'm pretty much screwed until apple fixes it. Not so great. 

The sad thing is that I use my PC now for 99% of things and the G3 for 1% but even with that kind of ratio, I'm getting less blue screens vs kernel panics.  Not trying to be biased but I do have both and this is my experience so far. XP and Win2k are far more stable than anyone gives credit.


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## nixgeek (Jun 1, 2005)

I think it's a matter of how well you know to configure a system and use the proper "etiquette" for managing your computer, be it a Mac or PC running whatever.  And yes, the only times I've had crashes on Windows (XP and 2000) have been because of drivers.  For the most part, my systems (Mac/Win/Linux) have been pretty stable and run for a good while.

But it's this "etiquette" that not everyone has when it comes to computer maintenance, as we see moreso in the Windows world with users' lack of updating their systems.  Sure, most of that is automated, but it's only helpful if you have an "always on" connection.  Dial-up users either have to have their computers dial overnight or they have to update manually when they are connected, while hoping they don't get disconnected.

I see the fault lying on both parties.  One for users not being proactive about learning or keeping their computer in top form, and another for the corps not making all of this easy for the end user.  If people didn't take preventative maintenance on their cars and the companies didn't make these cars safe to begin with, imagine what hell it would be to cross the street!

I hope this is making sense, especially since I'm typing this with one eye open at 12:11 AM...  ::sleepy::


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## contoursvt (Jun 1, 2005)

I think what you said does make a lot of sense. In my own case, maybe because windows is my primary OS, I like it more and put more attention and effort into system maintenance compared to my G3 so maybe thats why its more stable and vice versa.  Guess if you love it, it will love you back   LOL


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## Satcomer (Jun 2, 2005)

contoursvt said:
			
		

> Guess if you love it, it will love you back   LOL



That's true with almost everthing in your life. Just ask an old man like myself.


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## aicul (Jun 3, 2005)

Satcomer said:
			
		

> Computers are the most complex home tool in most houses today!


After my wife... But then again I wouldn't consider her a tool.


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## rubaiyat (Jun 6, 2005)

I've had my W2k PC for 4 years and that is exactly how many crashes it has had. None of them requiring anything more serious than a restart. I have lost count of how many forced reinstalls I have had to do with my Mac and all the flavors of OSX.

Each time I have lost yet another lot of files, settings, data.

Just got back up and running after yet another what I call blue screen of death in Panther. I get through all the login only to end up with a blue screen with nothing but a live cursor on it.

"Safe Boot" didn't work, Disk First Aid as always wwas useless, and I had all sorts of hastles trying to reinstall Panther. I finally gave up after working on it over a day, and upgraded to Tiger. I just hope Tiger doesn't go flakey on me because it was not a clean reinstall, just an upgrade on top of what was left of the Panther install.

The big trouble with Apple's, less than perfect, Unix is that if you don't work on the same install that gave you trouble you don't get back your User stuff.

I'd love to have a reliable rescue CD, even DiskWarrior as good as it is, is painfully slow and doesn't do everything I need.


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## ngcomputing (Jun 7, 2005)

OS/X itself might not crash, but applications running under it surely will.  Since I switched in November '04 I've must have "Submitted A Report" to Apple at least 100 to 200 times. 

XP tends to crash more often than OS/X, however, OS/X applications tend to crash way more often than XP apps.


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## Canada-Man (Jun 8, 2005)

My iMac kept crashing until I realised I should't be repairing permissions. It stopped crashing. Then when I installed Panther it started crashing, and it kept doing it for a few months almost everyday. I changed the RAM last summer (the problem was not Panther) and it didn't crash once since August 2004, and I use it everyday.

So basically, if you use commercial apps, if your computer is in good hardware condition, if you do regular maintenance, and if you don't play in OS X where you shouldn't be messing around, you are a lot less likely to get a crash.


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## aicul (Jun 10, 2005)

Canada-Man said:
			
		

> So basically, if you use commercial apps, if your computer is in good hardware condition, if you do regular maintenance, and if you don't play in OS X where you shouldn't be messing around, you are a lot less likely to get a crash.



Exactly, you seem to have summed it up nicely. I couldn't say it better. 

On the lighter side, if you leave the mac switched off - it won't crash at all. ::ha::


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## RacerX (Jun 10, 2005)

aicul said:
			
		

> On the lighter side, if you leave the mac switched off - it won't crash at all. ::ha::


Odd... I've found that if I leave my Mac switched on it won't ever crash.

My last three uptimes... 93 days, 231 days, 133 days. No crashes (kernel panics) in the last 457 days (actually no crashes on this system since I installed Mac OS X on it on September 19, 2002).


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## lilbandit (Jun 11, 2005)

My powermac G5 started to crash fairly often a while back, it was around the time that I decided to put a proper backup system in place so I saved the important stuff and reinstalled panther and subsequent updates. I agree with nixgeek, if you install everything you come across and don't maintain the system properly you will have problems. At the moment I have Logic, iLife apps, Office v.x, Firefox (irish language version), photoshop 7, toast 6 ti and chronosync and HP scanjet softeare installed. Unless I need something I refuse to install it. This was about three months ago and the system has not crashed once. Even the apps are far more stable.


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## Lt Major Burns (Jun 11, 2005)

my system never crashes. but it has, in the past. (i wish i'd never started this thread....)

incidentally, how do you uninstall stuff? i mean sometimes you drag it to the trash. that works. what about pref panes? or things like media player which integrates with the system?


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## lilbandit (Jun 11, 2005)

Quick question, how does os x behave on large networks? My brother is a software engineer in Intel. He loves os x but works in a solaris/windows environment all day. The systems are well maintained, no unneccessary software etc. and he reckons that windows behaves well for them and gets the job done without much hassle. He was talking to one of his colleagues who seemed of the opinion that os x isn't as stable across a large network such as the one in intel Ireland (more than 6000 boxes) Anybody got any info/direct experience?


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## lilbandit (Jun 11, 2005)

If i'm uninstalling I check for an uninstaller program, if there isn't one I just drag the app to the trash and then check /Library/Application support for any extra stuff belonging to the program. If it's a pref pane, you can find all of these in /Library/Preferencepane.


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## Lt Major Burns (Jun 11, 2005)

i don't know about a macos x controlled network, but i'm on a huge network, across about 10,000 computers all networked. my mac runs fine on it.


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## CharlieJ (Jun 11, 2005)

it is because the software is especially the free stuff that is crashing allot.
i dont think macs have heard of the word cra** i better not get it in its head hey!
the only thing that crashes on xp is xp the apps are to good for it they should be all on macs minus paint,  word,  publisher!!! and many many more


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## Lt Major Burns (Jun 11, 2005)

my experience of xp, in terms of stability, is actually rather good.  when running most things, if something crashes, xp stays stable, and lets you quit it. the red cross will _always_ work now, as will the right menu on the task bar. it's just the bloody security problems, and the fact that it is 5 years out of date now that drag it down


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## lilbandit (Jun 11, 2005)

Yea I've heard much the same from anybody who is careful with their XP system, ie not downloading stuff from p2p networks and steering clear of spyware/adware. The school where I work uses XP on the newer systems. The biggest problems are virus related.


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## contoursvt (Jul 5, 2005)

Spyware and viruses are the biggest problem with 2k/xp. If people are careful then the system has no problems. Its quite bulletproof on its own when its not riddled with viruses    Can you believe in this day and age,I know people who have windows (I do as well) and dont even have a router / firewall, antivirus or anything and they surf and wonder why 30 seconds later they are infected and the computer is screwd up! Thats fine to do on a mac but not on a PC with so many viruses around. Need protection.


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## Lt Major Burns (Jul 5, 2005)

i take it all back. windows is shoddy as hell. dated, riddled with holes, very unstable (and the systems clean as a whistle, i can tell thee). i could throws 3 times as much at MacOS and it wouldn't flinch.


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## contoursvt (Jul 5, 2005)

Well I'll gladly buy that XP license from you   If its a retail XP that is.  So what happened to your XP install as far as you can tell? If you're getting crashing or bluescreening or freezing, then I'd do a memory test on that stick of memory. Sometimes you can get some hints as to what is happening in administrative tools - event viewer.


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## HomunQlus (Jul 6, 2005)

I got tired of explaining advantages and disadvantages of the OSes on the market. Everyone shall buy and use what he likes.


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## Lt Major Burns (Jul 6, 2005)

contoursvt said:
			
		

> Well I'll gladly buy that XP license from you  If its a retail XP that is. So what happened to your XP install as far as you can tell? If you're getting crashing or bluescreening or freezing, then I'd do a memory test on that stick of memory. Sometimes you can get some hints as to what is happening in administrative tools - event viewer.


 
it's not bluescreening or anything like that. just the odd unexpected quit, the odd random event that just baffles me. usb printing has been useless on windows since its conception, for example. its a shoddy shortcut telling windows that this "parallel" printer is working fine in the usb "which could well be parallel" port. that's irritating. IE is irritating. firefox has bugged me with it's amateur style since i first saw it. network connections. (it'll auto-dial-up for a few months, then it's make you do it manullly for a few months, then go auto again. all by itself, it would seem. got broadband now though.)  
the five spy-ad-mal-virus-anti-programs running constantly. 
the quicktime thing that never goes away, no matter how much you msconfig it, or go into it's preferences. 
iTunes sucks. 
windows doesn't doesn't have Expose. 
[you can't easily put accents on letters like macos does.] 
in fact, windows doesn't have anything showing that it's modern except that awful green start button (whoever designed that should be shot)

THE START MENU...   so many folders and icons you DONT need. trying to find an installed app in there is painful. always has been (don't forget i am a switcher - i have used, abused and fixed windows since workgroups) and has always bugged me. 
the fact that no program is ever completely uninstalled. probably. or maybe it is, but you don't know do you? it may leave some files. it tells you it does. 

THE .DLL 

the fact that everything is a weblink, or an advert, or something leading you toward the msn site.
5 hours downtime a week while you defrag 200gb. because the systems uselss if you don't, and you can't do _anything_ while it's doing it.


I HATE IT! I HATE IT SO MUCH


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## Viro (Jul 6, 2005)

You should put Linux on it . Ubuntu gets my vote.


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## nixgeek (Jul 6, 2005)

Viro said:
			
		

> You should put Linux on it . Ubuntu gets my vote.



I second Viro on the Linux reco... 

You could also play around with FreeBSD, or even PC-BSD, which tries to be the Ubuntu of the BSD world.


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## contoursvt (Jul 6, 2005)

Lt Major Burns, wow thats some list there   You let it all out. Well I can definitly be sympathetic towards some...

The spyware and virus problem is definitly big, but I'll tell you what I do or use and maybe that might be good for you as well. For antivirus, I either use AVG Free edition from www.grisoft.com or use Bitdefender Free edition from bitdefender.com. Both work very well and  have low CPU usage. For spyware, I use Adaware personal edition as my primary, Spybot search and destroy once in a while and last resort for very stubbon hijacks and things.. something called Hijackthis. That last one you gotta be careful because it just really shows installed IE items and startup items. Well you'll know when you look at it.

I think the install uninstall problem might be the same for both platforms no?  I've installed things in OSX that have left items behind in Libraries..etc.  Granted that is easier to clean up than a left behind .dll or an orphaned registry key. Still I dont think it will cause any issues leaving it behind...it will just cost a few K of disk space. I dont install or uninstall very often to be honest. I usually do a full install the exact way I want, then ghost the system. If I'm ever unhappy about anything, I restore my ghost...

Weirdness in terms of applications quitting and things might still be a memory issue. I'd run Memtest86 which can be downloaded as an ISO and burned. Its a bootable CD and will scan the memory. I'd go through at least 10 passes.... Also make sure the CPU is not getting hotter than high 60's low 70's under full load temperatures (celcius of course  )

I dont use Firefox because I find it a bit slow but I kinda like IE - mostly for its speed I must admit. I like activeX as well for its convenience, but I'm careful about what to allow to install. I've adjusted my security settings to prompt me for any activeX installs.

As for defragging. I hope you're running NTFS. I'm sure you are. Anyway I dont know how often a single drive has to be defragged because I run two drives and well to be honest, they are very fast so any defragmentation I dont even feel so maybe thats why it doesnt bother me ( Both my C & D drives are 15,000RPM U160 scsi drives ). 

I dont know if any of that is of any use..probably not, but the memory thing I'd check into for sure!!!


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## Lt Major Burns (Jul 6, 2005)

1) i'm currently running AVG, Kerio anti virus (my dad[owner of machine]'s reccommendation) MS antispyware and AdAware. Crap Cleaner and Spybot get run almost weekly.

2) with macOS, files go: in apps. there will also be 1, maybe 2 com.apple.[      ].plist files added to the library. and that's it. in windows, they go everywhere. i have, right now, at least 20 random application ghosts around the computer, best to find them in Add/Remove Programs, in that list. completly unremovable without delving or using third party. and that's just what the computer chooses to tell you about. i have no idea the level of corruption in this horrid box. i'm guessing the level of a third world government.  it's not the loss of disk space - it's the feeling of a loss of conrol. it is pretty much as clean as third-party apps can get it ( i know) and i still know its... dirty (sneered).

3) i'll try the memtest.

4)i don't like internet on this because a) it's dangerous, and b) because it's not safai. - safari is (without being shallow) sleek. it takes up 2 1/2 'lines' of title space. making my big monitor appear bigger (more room). IE uses 6 for the same configuration. seven if you include the start bar. making this 15" wonderCRT seem even smaller. safari is also FAST. very fast.

5 ) i must admit i don't defrag that much - if i was pro on this (i use my mac for pro) i would probably have to more often. i defragged my friends old thinkpad running xp. a 6gb hard disk took 4 hours. tedious. the one in this is 80gb 5000rpm NTFS.

and to the 'nixers, it's actually my parents machine. they'd flip if i did that. i can';t wait until the house is networked so i can get my baby back online. or just until i move out again. a month and a half until my flats ready to move into


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## MBHockey (Jul 6, 2005)

Lt Major Burns said:
			
		

> it's the feeling of a loss of conrol. it is pretty much as clean as third-party apps can get it ( i know) and i still know its... dirty (sneered).



I constantly feel this way whenever using my parents PC.  It has the professional version of Adaware installed, and Norton AntiVirus 2005 with auto-protect enabled, and ad-watch enabled from Adaware, yet it has still become riddled with viruses, and i am planning on reformatting it in the next few days.


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## Lt Major Burns (Aug 23, 2005)

well, we got hit with spyware.  my sister installed msnplus!, and it trojan-ed.  the thing is though, the pop-ups and toolbars are impossible to remove! it's completely immune to Spybot S+D, AdAware, MS Antipyware, Ccleaner, everything! it keeps coming back! and the pop-up blocker is useless! it blocks all regualr pop-ups, but won't block all these! its so irritating!

but, i've almost convinced my father to replace the big charcoal ricketty box with something small, sleek and aluminium. some kind of fruit box...


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## MBHockey (Aug 23, 2005)

Lt Major Burns said:
			
		

> well, we got hit with spyware.  my sister installed msnplus!, and it trojan-ed.  the thing is though, the pop-ups and toolbars are impossible to remove! it's completely immune to Spybot S+D, AdAware, MS Antipyware, Ccleaner, everything! it keeps coming back! and the pop-up blocker is useless! it blocks all regualr pop-ups, but won't block all these! its so irritating!
> 
> but, i've almost convinced my father to replace the big charcoal ricketty box with something small, sleek and aluminium. some kind of fruit box...




My moms credit card # got stolen twice, two different cards.  She does a lot of online purchasing with her windows pc.  I told her it was most likely spyware.

You'd think 2 times would be enough to ditch the PC and get a Mac Mini


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## fryke (Aug 24, 2005)

Hm... This thread kinda got off-topic, I'd say.


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## Lt Major Burns (Aug 26, 2005)

i suppose it was a natural occurance of reality adjusting itself to the truth. mac's crash, but windows is _still_ worse....  btw any thoughts to how to remove this stuff?


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