# the answer to the Tablet PC



## malexgreen (Nov 8, 2002)

Is Apple planning on releasing in the near future (within 3 months) a notebook that has a touch-sensitive screen that supports "digital ink?"


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## kendall (Nov 8, 2002)

I think it would be in Apples best interest to wait and see how well the Tablet PC is received.  Much like they did with the mp3 player.

Then when they can find a way to totally improve upon it, release their own and take the market by storm.


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## KrinkleCut (Nov 8, 2002)

Uhm, like the title of the post says, I'm waiting for 'the answer to thte tablet PC'. That is, I don't get it. Why do I want one of these? 

Features? No, they're bound to be underpowered just because of the form factor. A touch screen? That's it? So why do I (or any other 'average user') need a touch screen? Sure certain specialized professionals might benefit, but I don't see it.

Flexability? I can take it... where? I don't need to carry my PC around, and if I do, why not get a laptop? Because of the size? Then why not an iPaq or something and leave the real computing to my desktop? These tablets don't seem much smaller than your average laptop anyway.

Wow factor? My local library has had touch screen computers for 10 years. Wow.

I guess I have to side with Apple on this - I don't see why they (or anyone else) need them. Give me features to enhance my computing experience, not just cause you can.


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## n4cer (Nov 8, 2002)

The Tablet PCs are full fledged PCs/laptops. That's the point. They are supersets of traditional laptops. You get all the benefits of a normal laptop, (Power, all your software runs, etc.) plus the inking capabilities, and the benefits that go along with the platform's portrait (in addition to landscape) display capability (for ebooks, digital periodicals, and planning applications, etc.).


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## edX (Nov 8, 2002)

"what's wrong with the tablet PC?"


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## Trip (Nov 8, 2002)

If Apple made something like the tablet PC and sold it for less than $800 I'd be all over that! The drawing capabilities (in photoshop even!) would be absolutly incredible! And I could work at school without having to drag around a heavy peice of platstic!

*wakes up*

Oh, thats right...Apple still hasn't even released a PDA.


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## boi (Nov 8, 2002)

inkwell seems too random for a tablet mac _not_ to be in the works... but what do i know?


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## KrinkleCut (Nov 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by n4cer _
> *The Tablet PCs are full fledged PCs/laptops. That's the point. They are supersets of traditional laptops. You get all the benefits of a normal laptop, (Power, all your software runs, etc.) plus the inking capabilities, and the benefits that go along with the platform's portrait (in addition to landscape) display capability (for ebooks, digital periodicals, and planning applications, etc.). *



Okay, so they're fully fledged laptops with a touch screen and handwriting recognition. Fine. But why would I pay for one over a 'traditional' laptop? Convince me. You've iterated features not benefits.

Maybe I'm a minority, but I would NEVER choose to read in a digital medium over print. Ebooks, digital periodicals? Why is it better for those than an ipaq, other than it's bigger (a hindrance in my opinion)?

Don't get me wrong, they're 'cool' in theory. Just don't see the point.


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## symphonix (Nov 9, 2002)

> Oh, thats right...Apple still hasn't even released a PDA.



Very funny, Trip. Apple had the first PDA on the market: the Newton. However, it didn't sell very well and Apple abandoned it. Since then they've built a good relationship with Palm.

However, I find it hard to see the point of a TabletPC, or Mac-PDA, beyond the 'cool' factor. They would not be very useful. Still, at least we know that if Apple did make one, unlikely as that is,  they'd be far superior to the PC based ones.


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## jeb1138 (Nov 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by KrinkleCut _
> *Maybe I'm a minority, but I would NEVER choose to read in a digital medium over print. *



Why not?  Even if you had a folding digital book about, say, 10x15x4cm big, that used a  reflective display technology, had a touch-screen interface and could store all the books you'd ever want to store? Never?

That's what I think Apple should invent, because it would really be useful and wildly popular if they could get a good reflective display and an excellent battery life, which I think is possible.


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## n4cer (Nov 9, 2002)

Also, you have to think, not necessarily about physical documents as opposed to digital ones (even though in that scenario, you get things like markup/annotation, digital dog-earing/bookmarking of pages, voice notes, and the ability to quickly search the document for the info you need).

Think about the documents you deal with that are already in digital form (such as PDFs or Word documents). Rather than sit at your desk, staring at a monitor all day to read those documents, or wasting ink by printing hundreds of pages, you can use the Tablet PC to carry those documents around with you, and read them in a more natural way, holding the PC like a book or clipboard, being able to adjust your gaze at the text, and being able to easily reposition the Tablet PC's distance and viewing angle from you just as you would a real paper document. The display is backlit, so you can also easily read or write in low-light environments.

Then there are people that use applications like Photoshop or 3DS Max, etc., that will be able to work better with the stylus interface.

College students (in a math class for instance) will be able to take their notes using the Tablet PC, including any equations or diagrams right next to the text, and gain the ability to search their notes even if they leave them in handwritten form. They can highlight their handwritten text, move it and insert other handwritten text, typed text, illustrations, equations, graphs, etc., and they can record the instructor's lecture as audio only, or as video by connecting a camera.

There are many uses you may not think of unless you had the device in your possession.


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## jeb1138 (Nov 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by n4cer _
> *College students (in a math class for instance) will be able to take their notes using the Tablet PC, including any equations or diagrams right next to the text, and gain the ability to search their notes even if they leave them in handwritten form. They can highlight their handwritten text, move it and insert other handwritten text, typed text, illustrations, equations, graphs, etc., and they can record the instructor's lecture as audio only, or as video by connecting a camera.
> 
> There are many uses you may not think of unless you had the device in your possession. *



My thoughts exactly.  My college bookstore has had some Acer tablet PC's for about a month now (we got 'em early so that they'd be almost on time for the beginning of the semester) and I've tried them out.  They're really the only solution for taking electronic notes in most classes.

Can you imagine drawing physics diagrams or electronic circuits using a PDA or a laptop?   I like drawing arrows, making diagrams and sketching out ideas!  Coursey's article suggests that if keyboards were socially acceptable tablet PC's would be frivolous.  He obviously isn't a visually-oriented person.

The only thing that keeps me from seriously considering getting a tablet PC is the lag while inputting with the pen.  The resolution is awesome, the color is awesome and the anti-aliasing is awesome, but trying to draw anything even remotely intricate is frustrating because when you draw the "ink" lags behind the pen like Finder windows lag behind the mouse when resizing.  When you're drawing usually what you draw next is in reference to what you just drew, so it's annoying to have to wait for the ink to catch up.  I'm sure they'll get there soon though, and then I'll really be interested.

I still think electronic books will never catch on until they use ultra-low power reflective displays, however.  You can't read an LCD anything like a book sitting out in the sun or under bright light.  Also, projected light hurts your eyes and makes them tired much more than reflected light.


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## Ricky (Nov 9, 2002)

I type much faster than I write.    I really see no use for a tablet PC unless you were taking notes while walking or something.  And then theres a much less costly way to take notes then...

Pen:  Free from most businesses
Paper:  39 cents for a notebook
Clipboard:  $1 to $3

-Compared to-
Tablet PC:  Upwards of $1,699

Hmm...


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## Ricky (Nov 9, 2002)

Plus...

-Your precious Tablet PC would be obsolete in five years, forcing you to fork over another $1,699
-It would pay for itself... in 800 years
-You would always be worrying about your pen and paper crashing and losing all your info.  

By far, one of the worst ideas EVER.


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## Vyper (Nov 9, 2002)

It really annoys me that people would think Apple would do something as risky as creating a tablet pc just to answer Microsoft, and I'm also suprised that nobody's mentioned that Mac OS X can be installed on the Wacom .


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## xaqintosh (Nov 9, 2002)

you mean the wacom can be used with mac os x?

you can't install OSs on a graphics tablet.


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## KrinkleCut (Nov 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jeb1138 _
> *Why not?  Even if you had a folding digital book about, say, 10x15x4cm big, that used a  reflective display technology, had a touch-screen interface and could store all the books you'd ever want to store? Never?
> 
> That's what I think Apple should invent, because it would really be useful and wildly popular if they could get a good reflective display and an excellent battery life, which I think is possible. *



Oh I see, you're talking about science fiction. I'd rather have a jet-pack first. This is not something I had heard any computer companies are looking into developing for pc applications, but if you have other information, let's hear it.

But, leaving the futurists behind and sticking with what is currently and foreseeably possible, no - I would never prefer these to paper. Sunlight either robs the displays of any legibility or, if I'm out of harsh daylight, my eyes get tired too quickly from the backlighting. I can't afford to mistreat my eyes. They're already giving out on me  

And as far as storing "all the books you'd ever want to store" this too has problems. First, much of what I read is not available in digital format (thankfully). Further, the copyright issues involved in the distribution of digital 'writing' are nightmarish. One printed book equals one printed book. Much simpler.



> _Originally posted by n4cer _
> *College students (in a math class for instance) will be able to take their notes using the Tablet PC, including any equations or diagrams right next to the text, and gain the ability to search their notes even if they leave them in handwritten form. They can highlight their handwritten text, move it and insert other handwritten text, typed text, illustrations, equations, graphs, etc., and they can record the instructor's lecture as audio only, or as video by connecting a camera. *



Uhm, I don't know about you, but I certainly didn't have time to do any of those things DURING a lecture. Instead I used an inexpensive tape recorder to make an audio record and scratched down what I could. Maybe I'm just a slow writer. And how is a Tablet PC BETTER than a pen and paper here? If you work hard enough at it you can put diagrams and equations next to text on paper too. (I know it sounds far-fetched, but trust me on this) 

It seems to me that the only thing you gain with a touch screen is you don't have to input notes again (I'll give you that) but is that it? My palm does that.

Now if it could record someone's droning lecture and use speech recognition to type it all up for me so I could study it, you might be on to something - but that doesn't have much to do with a touch screen does it? And isn't the screen the only new feature on a Tablet PC? Correct me if I'm wrong here...

So, unless I missed something, I still don't see any compelling reason for it, only gadgetry for the sake of gadgetry. Blah.


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## n4cer (Nov 10, 2002)

> And how is a Tablet PC BETTER than a pen and paper here? If you work hard enough at it you can put diagrams and equations next to text on paper too. (I know it sounds far-fetched, but trust me on this)



I already explained how it would be better. You can easily search your notes. They would be neater than normal handwritten notes (no eraseure marks or scratch-outs, etc.). No worrying about running out of paper or ink, or breaking your pencil lead during class. No ripping the paper. One small tablet right there to store and organize your notes from all of your classes for your years at school (try that with a conventional tablet). You can recognize the handwriting and inport the recognized text into Word, etc., to create a report, term paper, etc., from your notes without having to type them all in, and you could directly transfer any sketches or diagrams. And those diagrams and equations can be moved around the page and reordered if necessary, as well as copied to other pages, or cleanly deleted or corrected if a mistake is made. The handwritten or recognized text/diagrams can also be marked up, annotated, highlighted, bookmarked, etc.

Video, as well as audio of classes to better supplement your notes.

And your Tablet PC would not be obsolete in 5 years (as said earlier), it would be obsolete when you no longer deem it useful to you. If you're talking 5 years because a newer version of Windows will be available and you would want to run that version, you can. Just buy the new version of Windows. Plus, as I said before, buying a Tablet PC is no different than buying a Windows laptop, you get all the features of a normal laptop and then some.
At least try to come up with valid reasons not to purchase one. The above quote is valid, the one about obsolescence is not (No version of Windows to date has required more than a 233MHz Pentium to run [XP requires 233, 300 recommended]), and many people don't use/require the latest version of Windows.


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## jeb1138 (Nov 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by KrinkleCut _
> *Oh I see, you're talking about science fiction.*


Ouch, that hurts!  


> _Originally posted by KrinkleCut _
> *I'd rather have a jet-pack first.*


Me too! 


> _Originally posted by KrinkleCut _
> *...leaving the futurists behind and sticking with what is currently and foreseeably possible, no - I would never prefer these to paper. Sunlight either robs the displays of any legibility or, if I'm out of harsh daylight, my eyes get tired too quickly from the backlighting. I can't afford to mistreat my eyes. They're already giving out on me  *


Well, you asked for it so here's a link: http://www.kentdisplays.com/.   ChLCD, my friend.  Reflective LCD technology which only uses energy when it needs to be changed.  Exactly what I was talking about -- won't hurt your eyes and won't drain hardly any battery power (compared to normal LCD's).  Granted, I really don't know if it is ready for primetime _today_ but it's available now a with the type of technology that would be perfect for ebooks, in my opinion.


> _Originally posted by KrinkleCut _
> *
> ...much of what I read is not available in digital format (thankfully). Further, the copyright issues involved in the distribution of digital 'writing' are nightmarish. One printed book equals one printed book. Much simpler.*



OK - you only want to talk about what's available today.  Well, I agree with you 100% then!  But I don't think it's much of a 'leap' into the future to think that we could have this:  Awesome quality, low-power reflective LCD ebook with an internal harddrive (for those who want to mess with copyright issues) _and_ an external slot to stick in "book cards".  One card is one title, simple as that.  People that didn't try to pirate books wouldn't have any problems - they could lend it to a friend and everything. It could also be much, much cheaper, much smaller and easier to carry around.  Plus you could use the harddrive to "check-out" a copy of the card, like Sony does with its Minidisc software.  It wouldn't be a hassle at all as long as you kept your card, which would be easier than keeping a book.  And, of course, if a great ebook technology was developed people would buy it and publishers would digitize their books, provided the cost-benefit was right (including risk of piracy -- which might be the biggest technological challenge, but definitely doable -- as well as all other factors.)  Hey, it's all about making money in the publisher's view, right?

_That's_ what I think Apple's answer should be -- touchscreen lcd tablet-sized device that would be useful and much better than the alternative.


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## Ricky (Nov 10, 2002)

Does a pen and paper ever crash in the middle of a lecture or need to be reformatted?


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## drustar (Nov 10, 2002)

If Apple decides to join this whole Tablet ordeal - just make a Powerbook with tablet-pc features (A special Ti-Tablet edition or something) - or maybe even better features.


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## n4cer (Nov 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ricky _
> *Does a pen and paper ever crash in the middle of a lecture or need to be reformatted?   *



Yeah, it's called running out of ink (or paper), and needing a refill.


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## KrinkleCut (Nov 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by n4cer _
> *I already explained how it would be better.*



Actually, I don't think you have.



> _Originally posted by n4cer _
> *You can easily search your notes.*



Unlike having them on my computer now?



> _Originally posted by n4cer _
> *No worrying about running out of paper or ink, or breaking your pencil lead during class.*



Instead worrying about freezes and battery time and software updates  and losing my stylus. Much better. Increased cost is a real bonus too - but that's what student loans are for, right? And hey, what's the difference between $10 for a paper pad and pack of pens and a few thousand?



> _Originally posted by n4cer _
> *One small tablet right there to store and organize your notes from all of your classes for your years at school (try that with a conventional tablet).*



Like I said before, who cares if I have this on my tablet if I don't have time to look at them and organize them during class? If you have to do it after class anyway what's better about this than doing it on my laptop?



> _Originally posted by n4cer _
> *Video, as well as audio of classes to better supplement your notes.*



And this relates to a touch screen how? Can't I do this on an iBook?

 Perhaps I should have been more clear. How does a tablet pc convince me to part with my money, assuming, for the sake of argument I am a student? Why do I need to pay a premium for the features inherent in a tablet pc over a 'conventional' laptop/handheld or desktop/handheld combination? No need to throw in reasons/benefits that are covered by one of these two combinations, only reasons/benefits that  are unable to be addressed by either combination. 

Then, taking these, you need to examine the cost/benefit difference and argue that, yes, there is enough here to make it worth my money. So far I have only seen one argument for the student to get a tablet pc over the previously mentioned combinations:

- you only have to enter your notes once because of the handwriting recognition

So, is that it? Is it worth the premium? I'd say no. I'd take the extra cash and get an iPod.



> _Originally posted by n4cer _
> *And your Tablet PC would not be obsolete in 5 years (as said earlier), it would be obsolete when you no longer deem it useful to you...At least try to come up with valid reasons not to purchase one. The above quote is valid, the one about obsolescence is not (No version of Windows to date has required more than a 233MHz Pentium to run [XP requires 233, 300 recommended]), and many people don't use/require the latest version of Windows. *



Well, I didn't say this, but I agree with him. We are talking about computers here, not blenders. In five years there will be software that will not run, hardware that will not interface, etc. Will it cease to function? No. If it WERE a blender, it would still be deemed useful. Computers become 'obsolete' because they are not sold to consumers with a predetermined feature set - they CAN access the internet,  they CAN do video editing, they CAN run the holodeck (etc. Ad nauseum) IF the hardware and software support it. Blenders just blend. Until they stop blending.


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## KrinkleCut (Nov 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jeb1138 _
> *Well, you asked for it so here's a link: http://www.kentdisplays.com/.   ChLCD, my friend.  Reflective LCD technology which only uses energy when it needs to be changed.  Exactly what I was talking about -- won't hurt your eyes and won't drain hardly any battery power (compared to normal LCD's).  Granted, I really don't know if it is ready for primetime today but it's available now a with the type of technology that would be perfect for ebooks, in my opinion.
> 
> That's what I think Apple's answer should be -- touchscreen lcd tablet-sized device that would be useful and much better than the alternative. *



I think we're saying the same thing in different ways. I'm arguing that the current crop of Tablet PCs are flawed in that they have no benefits large enough to make me (or other 'average' computer users) want one over anything else. You're saying they should alter the concept to include a more advanced technology (kinda like digital paper from the looks of it - very cool-sounding stuff) so that it you would want one. 

Might I want one if it had this? I'd have to see it to be sure, but maybe. If the actual qualities of the paper and ink medium were more closely emulated, the convenience might be warranted. 

Would I necesarily want it to be a touch screen? Unless the OS significantly changes the way I interact with it, I think a mouse and keyboard is a more efficient, more flexible option. I type faster than I write and I don't have to move my hand so far when operating a mouse, than if I have to move a stylus.

Of course, it could be I'm just an old fuddy duddy who can't dance with the new kids.


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## n4cer (Nov 10, 2002)

> Like I said before, who cares if I have this on my tablet if I don't have time to look at them and organize them during class? If you have to do it after class anyway what's better about this than doing it on my laptop?



You're not getting it. You don't have to look at your notes and organize them during class. The Tablet PC recognizes your handwriting in the background without you needing to convert it for searching or organization. You can search your notes directly while keeping them in ink form.

RE: Battery life - 
3.5 to 4 hours should be enough for a class. If not, Electrovaya makes a Tablet PC that will run for 10 to 16 hours.



> And this (video and voice recording) relates to a touch screen how? Can't I do this on an iBook?


Yes you can do this on an iBook now, but you can't easily do the seamless notetaking and diagramming on the iBook.



> Perhaps I should have been more clear. How does a tablet pc convince me to part with my money, assuming, for the sake of argument I am a student? Why do I need to pay a premium for the features inherent in a tablet pc over a 'conventional' laptop/handheld or desktop/handheld combination?



The Tablet PC is more powerful/versatile than a handheld. Plus, it could replace either of the above combinations itself, meaning you could potentially pay a premium to use either of the above combinations over the Tablet PC, especially if you are talking about Mac laptops/desktops.



> Is it worth the premium? I'd say no. I'd take the extra cash and get an iPod.



Why bother with an iPod when the Tablet PC is capable of storing a lot more tunes?

I know this hasn't convinced you, but I don't have much time. You can go to http://www.microsoft.com/tabletpc for more info. Besides, if you want convincing, just go to Office Depot or someplace where you can try a display model for an extended period of time.

I have to go for now due to a storm. Will post later.

RE: Obsolecence -
The fact that newer models of the Tablet PC or software upgrades will appear, still does not diminish the utility of the features you currently use. Just like you don't automatically chuck the iBook you purchased just because Apple decides to intoduce a newer model, most people won't rid themselves of their Tablet PC as long as it is useful for them. They can still take handwritten notes, use speech recognition, and do many other things. And, since it is a full PC, they can also easily upgrade to new versions of Windows.


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## onegoodpenguin (Nov 11, 2002)

Whoever said, "why bother with the iPod when the tablet will hold more tunes," I really hope I don't need to answer that.  But just in case: It fits in my pocket.

As a student at Western Michigan University (I don't know if anyone else here is qualified to speak from the perspective of a student), I use my iBook daily to take notes in every single one of my classes.  No, I don't currently have any math classes requiring the entries of equations, but for normal notes I use Microsoft Word X or OmniGraffle.  When I need more room to work, I pull out a notebook and pen.  Honestly, I think my setup is BETTER than the tablet PC.  I got my iBook so that I'd no longer have to hunch over my notes while I wrote.  I have the screen angled so that I can sit comfortably and see the instructor, the instructor's display, and my laptop without moving my head.  I also record many lectures using the iBook.  I don't see what's so exciting about 1600 dollars for a tablet PC, I really don't.


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## n4cer (Nov 12, 2002)

I said ,"Why bother with the iPod." in reference to the guy's statement about cost.

Basically, if you already have a computer capable of performing the same functions as the iPod (and more), and you're going to be using it during class anyway, an iPod just adds to the cost.

If he were really a cash-strapped college student, he'd probably make due with what he had if it provided the same functionallity, or he'd get an mp3 player that stored more than the iPod yet costs less.

If on one hand, he's arguing about paying a premium for the Tablet PC, how can he then justify paying a premium for an mp3 player?

If cost were not a factor (or the primary factor), getting the iPod (or anything else) would come down to a simple matter of preference. In which case, you get what you want no matter the cost, making several of the above arguments moot.


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## KrinkleCut (Nov 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by n4cer _
> *I said ,"Why bother with the iPod." in reference to the guy's statement about cost.
> 
> ...
> ...



No, wrong again. What I am arguing is that the Tablet PCs are not any more effective (IMHO) than some less expensive options. Thus they are not worth the premium. IF I DID have the money (and was a stundent, which I am not) and wanted to spend it, I said that I would still not purchase a Tablet PC - I would go with a less expensive, and what I see to be an equally effective, option. 

The only reason I mentioned the iPod (or any MP3 player) was it's how I figured a college student would want to blow the money he saved by going with a less expensive option. Only reason it's an iPod over anything else is this is a Mac forum. Feel free to substitute any brand name you prefer. Or put the money into your savings account. I don't care.

As to your other post...



> _Originally posted by n4cer _
> *You're not getting it. You don't have to look at your notes and organize them during class. The Tablet PC recognizes your handwriting in the background without you needing to convert it for searching or organization. You can search your notes directly while keeping them in ink form.*



WHO CARES if it's in my own handwriting? I can barely read my own writing anyway. Once my notes are in a word document, I can do anything you have mentioned. 

Or does it do something else? Is there one of those Microsoft wizards that know what's best for me and organizes it for me too, magically knowing what my needs are and 'helping' me. Don't even get me started on wizards...



> _Originally posted by n4cer _
> *RE: Obsolecence -
> The fact that newer models of the Tablet PC or software upgrades will appear, still does not diminish the utility of the features you currently use. Just like you don't automatically chuck the iBook you purchased just because Apple decides to intoduce a newer model, most people won't rid themselves of their Tablet PC as long as it is useful for them. They can still take handwritten notes, use speech recognition, and do many other things. And, since it is a full PC, they can also easily upgrade to new versions of Windows.*



Perhaps you should read my comment about this again. Here, I'll try to make it more plain. I agree, it can still perform the functions that it did when first purchased. Of course. However, as new technologies arise, any computer available before these new technologies has a chance of not being able to utilize them. Not all, mind you, but some. For example, Airport. I cannot install an Airport card in my Rev.B iMac because there is no airport slot present. Still with me? Good.

Now, as time passes, the number of new technologies that cannot be utilized on your computer increase. Computer uses and needs evolve. From word processing to desktop publishing, etc, we find new ways of using computers. Eventually, you will reach a point where your computer's hardware cannot meet your needs (because of computing power limitations or interfaces). Can it still perform it's original tasks? Yes. Does it meet your needs? No. Therefore it has been rendered 'obsolete'. My blender blends and that's all I can do with it until it breaks. It is not obsolete. Just broken.

This holds true with software as well. If I can install XP on a 486/66, does that make it useable? Can I now make it a station for rendering my 3D work? According to you, all it seems I to need to do is install a new OS. But hardware is the reason that this doesn't work (and why you're not writing on your screen instead of using a mouse and keyboard). My requirements for my computer change as new ways to use them become available. That's what it means for a computer to to become 'obsolete'. As for the 5 year time frame you cited:
1. Wasn't mine.
2. It was a 'guesstimate' to illustrate a point. Relax. You might get 6.

All clear?

And, just because I feel the need to address this too - it ties in with the previous discussion. Does the touchscreen display on a TabletPC change my needs enough to compell me to get a new computer? Is this the feature that I've needed that makes my current system 'obsolete'? No. I can do what I need to without it for now. Possibly forever. Any benefits it may have (and I think those are few) are negated by cost. THAT's my argument.



> _Originally posted by n4cer _
> *At least try to come up with valid reasons not to purchase one.*



See above.

[edit]PS. sorry about the length of this thread. I seem to be chasing my own tail here.[/edit]


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## n4cer (Nov 13, 2002)

> No, wrong again. What I am arguing is that the Tablet PCs are not any more effective (IMHO) than some less expensive options. Thus they are not worth the premium. IF I DID have the money (and was a stundent, which I am not) and wanted to spend it, I said that I would still not purchase a Tablet PC - I would go with a less expensive, and what I see to be an equally effective, option.



This is the problem. Effectiveness of the platform is highly subjective. I'll just agree to disagree on this, and say that I believe there is a sizable market for the product, especially due to the availability of a convertable form factor (I think this will eventually replace the standard PC notebook). Naturally, there will be disagreements on the overall value of the platform due to differences in the ways people use computers. As more software becomes available, I think the platform's value will become more evident.

Also, as I said previously, if you really want to gauge the effectiveness of the platform (or lack thereof), you should try it out in person. You may even still be able to go to a launch event in your area (though most are probably over) http://www.tabletpcevent.com/



> For example, Airport. I cannot install an Airport card in my Rev.B iMac because there is no airport slot present.



This is largely Apple's fault for having non-upgradable hardware (especially on a desktop) . On a PC laptop, something like this could be supported through the PC Card slot. But, in non-specific terms, when purchasing a non-desktop machine, I'd take into account the long-term possibilities of the system. In TPCs case, I don't think it's any worse than other laptops, which should last quite a while unless you plan on running the all the latest 3D FPS for the next 5 years. In this case, I wouldn't bother with any laptop unless I could afford to upgrade it about every two years. Productivity apps generally don't require that much power. You can still run those on 400 mhz laptops. And, as yet, there hasn't been anything to warrant an upgrade from ~800Mhz other than games.



> This holds true with software as well. If I can install XP on a 486/66, does that make it useable? Can I now make it a station for rendering my 3D work?



I wouldn't generally buy a laptop for heavy tasks like 3D work. This is better done and more economical with a desktop. If I just had to do this on a laptop, I wouldn't use a Tablet PC for this either unless it came with an NVIDIA Quadro Go.

For the software most people use (Office, Email, Photoshop, Web, etc.), the Tablet PC should still perform well in 5 years. This stuff doesn't come close to needing the Ghz processors that are currently available (except maybe for speeding up some PS filters/effects).



> But hardware is the reason that this doesn't work (and why you're not writing on your screen instead of using a mouse and keyboard). My requirements for my computer change as new ways to use them become available. That's what it means for a computer to to become 'obsolete'. As for the 5 year time frame you cited:
> 1. Wasn't mine.
> 2. It was a 'guesstimate' to illustrate a point. Relax. You might get 6.
> 
> All clear?



Crystal. Let me just add that MS has been very good about maintaining backward compatability. Due to the way they build their software, they can change and upgrade application interfaces many times while maintaining the same or a different, but compatable interface to hardware. DX is one example of this, and to a greater extent, Windows itself.



> And, just because I feel the need to address this too - it ties in with the previous discussion. Does the touchscreen display on a TabletPC change my needs enough to compell me to get a new computer? Is this the feature that I've needed that makes my current system 'obsolete'? No. I can do what I need to without it for now. Possibly forever. Any benefits it may have (and I think those are few) are negated by cost. THAT's my argument.



I accept this, but maintain that others may not feel the same way. Again, this is highly subjective. To each, his own.


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## cfleck (Nov 15, 2002)

i dont understand why i would need a tablet pooter for note taking.  

if equations and odd type are your issue, learn latex 

in the rare occasion that i need to draw a picture i'll just reference my drawing and do it by hand on paper.  people wont study from their pooter anyway.  they'll print out what they type.


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## n4cer (Nov 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by cf25 _
> *i dont understand why i would need a tablet pooter for note taking.
> 
> if equations and odd type are your issue, learn latex
> ...



The whole point of this is giving the user an input method they don't have to learn. The machine should conform to the user.

Would you also prefer everyone learn graffitti rather than be offered actual, natural handwriting support such as (or better than) what's offered in devices like the Tablet PC, the Pocket PC, or even the Newton, and software such as inkwell and Windows handwriting recognition? If so, not everyone will see this as a viable option.

Also, I think many people would study from their computer if they could carry it around like a book and read/write on it where most comfortable, instead of having to stare at a monitor in a fixed position all day.

In any case, for those that are still interested, the archived webcast of the launch is now up. (128 and 256 kbps Windows Media streams)
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/tabletpc/keynote.asp

Enjoy (or not)


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## cfleck (Nov 18, 2002)

good points.  i'm a cs student and it is desireable for me to know latex for writing up research papers and the like, so it is becoming almost second nature to me.  thinking about it, it is rather naive to ask the casual user to learn something as off-beat as latex.

i still dont agree with studying from your computer however.  maybe it is just me, but after a while, it becomes uncomfortable to read large abounts of anything from a computer screen.  something about looking at a light forever...


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## n4cer (Nov 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by cf25 _
> *good points.  i'm a cs student and it is desireable for me to know latex for writing up research papers and the like, so it is becoming almost second nature to me.  thinking about it, it is rather naive to ask the casual user to learn something as off-beat as latex.
> 
> i still dont agree with studying from your computer however.  maybe it is just me, but after a while, it becomes uncomfortable to read large abounts of anything from a computer screen.  something about looking at a light forever... *



Thanks, I'm also a CS student.

I don't think you're alone in not wanting to study from your computer (though can that be helped if you're a programmer? ). But, I think it would be easier on a portable, portrait-formatted display compared to sitting at a desktop for long periods. Web browsing would probably be better, too.

I'm not saying everyone should get a Tablet PC, but I do think it has benefits and may even attract new users (or better serve curent ones). For instance, other than the GUI, the keyboard and mouse are probably the biggest barriers for new users. This gives them something a bit more familiar, and they don't have to worry as much about not knowing how to type (most older users I know worried about this). They can be better eased into the computing experience. Using the stylus to point to things would probably be easier than figuring out the mouse. As they get used to things, they can work up to the more traditional input methods (if needed/desired). Of course, even the ease of use comparison could vary depending on the user. It's just something that's really subjective.


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## cfleck (Nov 18, 2002)

i do think it would be quite laughable to see hardcore programmer using a tablet pc.  i just view this as a passing fad.  maybe it will catch on.  at most i think it will fill a small niche in the market.  i dont see myself ever using one.  at least not for a long time.


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## vanguard (Nov 18, 2002)

It might be nice for classes.  My use for something like this would be meetings.  I'm in RTP, NC and I work with people in San Jose, CA every day.  It would great if I could use a tablet PC as a whiteboard while I'm talking about approaches to a problem.

On a related topic, it really look like msft is driving this and that they are partnering with hardware guys to get it done.  If aapl came out with an innovation/evolution like this everybody would be doing backflips.  Let's try to be a *little* objective and give the kudos for pushing something different.

Vanguard


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## cfleck (Nov 18, 2002)

i had a feeling the bias comment would come sooner or later.  personally, my bias is minimal.  i dont even own a mac.  i just want to.  i primarily use linux, but for my 2nd computer i run win xp and work is all windows.  i just think table pcs, as they are, are glorified pdas.  

but there is some truth to the statement that if apple did something similar, this forum would be all about it.  but i think that is primarily because it would be different that the current design.  right now the design is basically a touch screen laptop with a slightly different case.  the os on it isn't that unique nor does it offer any special features othere than the obvious.  i'm willing to bet that if apple released their version, it would be something more.


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## n4cer (Nov 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by cf25 _
> *i do think it would be quite laughable to see hardcore programmer using a tablet pc.  i just view this as a passing fad.  maybe it will catch on.  at most i think it will fill a small niche in the market.  i dont see myself ever using one.  at least not for a long time. *





I don't expect anyone to be coding in ink (might be good for psuedo-code and diagraming / thinking out your program's structure). It could happen, but realisticly, I think that's definitely a task where the TPC's keyboard should be used.


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## mstoton (Nov 25, 2002)

I totally agree that tablet PCs are not gonna do it for most people. They're bulky, they're fragile, and they do more than they should. Having everything including the kitchen sink really reduces usability. Like say I want to read an ebook or text file and maybe add margin notes to that book. I need a specialized OS and software to streamline the process. I don't need full fledged Windows to bog me down; thats what a desktop is for. I'd love one of these things to take notes, read,  do artwork and write. I do not want excel. I do not want Windows. I do not want a docking station. I do not want tons of full fledged applications. I want a tablet that does what its design and form-factor allows me to do better than with a laptop.

That said I think its highly unlikely Apple will make a tablet... or atleast not as thy are right now. No, I think some sort of PDA or PDA-hybrid is in Apple's future. Smal and running a hybrid of OS X and probably larger than most PDAs.


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## cfleck (Nov 25, 2002)

that brings up an interesting idea.  what about a glorified notebook?  a unit with a touch screen that you can write/draw on and then go back and hook it up to your pooter to convert your notes into something more readable.  maybe it could hold your old notes in text form so you could read em, but with a simple tap here or there you can edit them with your handwriting.

it seems that a unit like that would be lighter and less expensive, but still seemingly get the job done for this niche market.  idunno.


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## fryke (Nov 25, 2002)

The problem I see is that the Tablet PC is a secondary PC. It won't replace your primary PC or notebook. And as such, it's too expensive (and can actually do too much).

I suggest the following main uses for a tablet. But I still rather call it a Pad:

 Webbrowsing
 E-Mail
 Chat
 Notes
 PIM

The perfect candidate? A Sony CliéPad (as suggested on http://www.palminfocenter.com and http://macnews.net.tc ...

The CliéPad would be a Palm OS 5 device with a 800*600 (or rotated to 600*800) pixel device. Sony would only have to throw in a WiFi card, a good browser and E-Mail application, and the Pad would be ready to sell.

Think cheaper than a tablet PC.
Think much more battery life than a tablet PC.
Think companion to your desktop/notebook PC.

Maybe the size of a paperbook would really be great for the device.


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## cfleck (Nov 25, 2002)

i agree with that idea almost completely.  the only change i think i would make would be the part about palm os5.  i've never been a huge fan of palm os.  it gets the job done, but its layout and config options annoy the hell out of me.  i think its much better than any of the other pda os's out there, but i dont think thats saying much.


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## n4cer (Nov 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by fryke _
> *The problem I see is that the Tablet PC is a secondary PC. It won't replace your primary PC or notebook. And as such, it's too expensive (and can actually do too much).
> *


* 

Why would it not replace your notebook (assuming you mean a PC notebook)? The Tablet PC (especially the convertables) is a full-featured notebook computer running Windows XP Professional. Are you confusing it with the Smart Display?*


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## tamma (Dec 4, 2002)

Actually apple did have a PDAi the early 90's it was called the newton and it was F**king Awesome. the thing had some great handwriting recognition software, it was ok to draw with, you could beam messages files and notes to another newton user, it ran on 4 AA batteries in a pinch and it even had a modem option. I actually have 3 and I still use it. i prefer the thing to my Palm V. the only bad part is that the thing is huge (about the size of a paperback book) I would love to see apple release a new version of the newton. if they do i will be the first in line.


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## boi (Dec 4, 2002)

i would like to see something like the ChatPen, except coupled with handwriting recognition technology. that way i can take notes on a sheet of paper, have that text sent to my bluetooth phone and then sent to my computer, where the stuff i wrote is decoded into text via handwriting technology. 
that way i wouldn't have to re-type my notes. i could keep track of every check i wrote that day, every note i wrote, the grocery list... basically everything i wrote on paper could be backed up on my computer as an .rtf.

that would be neat.


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## fryke (Dec 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by n4cer _
> *Why would it not replace your notebook (assuming you mean a PC notebook)? The Tablet PC (especially the convertables) is a full-featured notebook computer running Windows XP Professional. Are you confusing it with the Smart Display? *


Nope, of course I'm not. But the 'convertibles' are a bit too heavy, I think, to be really useful. Also their battery life isn't exactly overwhelming.


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## Jason (Dec 5, 2002)

shouldnt this be in cross platform, or am i mistaken?


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## n4cer (Dec 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by fryke _
> *Nope, of course I'm not. But the 'convertibles' are a bit too heavy, I think, to be really useful. Also their battery life isn't exactly overwhelming. *



The leaves the slates. They are still full laptops, and  have detachable keyboards. HP has a slate that looks like a standard laptop when the keyboard is connected, and a slate when not. 

http://h18000.www1.hp.com/products/tabletpc/ 


Electrovaya's slate has 8 -16 hrs battery life.
http://www.electrovaya.com/scribbler.html

Not a slate, but the Acer TPC is 3lbs.
http://global.acer.com/products/notebook/tmc100.htm


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## fryke (Dec 5, 2002)

no, buddahbobb, it's about what Apple could do to answer the Tablet PC, and as such is considered a 'Mac Rumour', although discussions sometimes get off-topic


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## Jason (Dec 5, 2002)

allright, i trust you


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## malexgreen (Jan 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by malexgreen _
> *Is Apple planning on releasing in the near future (within 3 months) a notebook that has a touch-sensitive screen that supports "digital ink?" *




I have still been curious about the tablet pc. I went to a Gateway store yesterday. I tried out their tablet pc. Here's my take on it:

	The Gateway tablet is in the "slate" form-factor. I think the slate form-factor is great when being used as a tablet. However, if you want
to use it as a normal notebook, you will find using the software keyboard hard to use. Also, because it is a slate, it isn't a notebook. So you have
to plug in a CDROM/DVD drive, keyboard, etc. If I were to get a tablet, I'd get a convertable so that I can have maximum portable flexibility (I can
use keyboard or digital ink on the fly).

	The MS Journal software is pretty good. It could not translate my natural handwriting to text, e.g. it couldn't translate my signature.
However, if I use good cursive penmanship, it found recognized it okay. However, just writing on the journal itself is just like using paper, just
better 'cause it digital. I was also able to import a MS word document into MS Journal and add hand-written notes.
	The hardware specs on the tablet are somewhat disappointing. Most, if not all tablets are using low-volt PentiumIII's  (I think some are
using 1GHz PIII's) with 256MB. So you're not necessarily dealing with the top-of-line performance.
	The price is kinda steep compared to other windows-based notebooks. You definitely are paying a premium for the MS Journal  feature, as the
HW is nothing exciting in and of itself.


Final analysis: I was very impressed by the handwriting capability. I see a definite use for this at work and in a classroom environment.

I still think Apple could come in with a 800 GHz PPC-based tablet mac that could trump this device. If they came out with this in either slate or
notebook form-factor at a price lower than the tablet pc's they would take a big chunk of this market, if they could have all the other features
supported in their powerbook and ibook platforms.


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## aaike (Jan 3, 2003)

I'm pretty sure that the guys at Apple will do something with this idea... But I would rather say that there is no need to come upe with something similar than in the PC market -Although I think Ink just rocks already and DOES e.g. Dutch handwriting recognition in comparison with the XP-tablet PC version and would as such not be such a bad thing - but something really useful, light, compact, superior battery life, readable in the sun,... and affordable.


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## karavite (Jan 3, 2003)

I didn't read every post in this topic, but if one doubts the usefulness of a tablet PC, think about the practice of medicine and the whole idea of the electronic patient chart. A tablet PC (with a very well designed information system and UI) would allow nurses and physicians to continue practicing medicine in ways they have developed and refined over time (referring to the paper chart), while making them more informed and productive (by no longer having to thumb through a paper chart). This whole issue is far more complex than could be covered here (security, privacy, reliability...), but we really can't expect the electronic chart to be adopted if it is only available on desktops or even laptops.


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