# Switch campaign - the other way round



## Tigger (Jul 24, 2002)

Apple has its switch campaign going to get Windows users to the Mac platform.

Now, with Apple don't getting quite the performance on par with the current PCs, I found myself thinking about buying a PC as my next Computer.

Now I thought it would be interesting to see how many of us also have such bad thoughts.


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## xaqintosh (Jul 24, 2002)

for a while about half a year ago I was thinking about WHY I think Macs are so much better. I had actually considered a PC :shudder: I came to my senses though  and I'll never think about it again.


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## Urbansory (Jul 24, 2002)

I use a Mac at home and sometimes a PC while in class at college. PC users maybe be happy, but I do not see the appeal to Windoze. I would rather use an Amiga Commadore, take it back to the old school if I'm going to waste my time. PCs bore me, and are a pain to design on. Many things have changed, or should i say have been copied from Macs over the years. The Mac is the trend setter, and the PC is the follower. There can only be so many leaders, other must follow, and those that follow tend to out number those that lead. Not to put down any PC users, I believe in equal computer use. I just prefer a MAC.


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## jocknerd (Jul 24, 2002)

I run both. I have a Pentium 4 at work running Debian Linux. I've got a Pentium III 667 at home running Debian Linux. My wife's PC is an AMD Athlon 1.4ghz dual booting Windows 2000 and Debian Linux. And finally I've got my Apple iBook G3 500mhz running OS X.

I would love to have an Apple that ran as fast as my PC's. I do think that OS X is the best all-around OS available today.


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## voice- (Jul 24, 2002)

right after .mac was announced I was so disappointed with Apple, I started fantasising about Linux on a AMD-powered tower...I snapped out of it thou, much with the comments of simX


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## serpicolugnut (Jul 24, 2002)

although I've used PCs at work for the last couple of years, and I've owned a home made PC since 2001, a few weeks ago I sold my Powerbook G4/500 and needed a replacement that would be my main computer for the next couple of weeks while I live in hotel while my new house is built. My main needs are Photoshop, Dreamweaver, Flash, and Lightwave 3D. 

I have to admit that I seriously looked at getting a Toshiba Satellite 5105-S701. It was about $600 less than the PBG4/800, and it had a much better graphics chip (GF42GO) and a larger HD (60GB), not to mention a crisper screen with a higher resolution (1600x1200). 

However, in the end, I decided to stick with the Powerbook G4/800 for a couple of reasons. The first being that all the software I own is Mac. I could have gotten warez copies of the same apps for PC, but I like to be legit. The other reason was weight. The Toshiba was about 2.3 lbs heavier - almost 50% of the weight of the PBG4. The last reason was OS X 10.2 . It's just that good. XP pales in comparison.

XP still has it's place, but even though Apple has thoroughly teed me off over the .Mac pricing, I'm sticking with them for another year.


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## skrillerd (Jul 24, 2002)

I just recently "switched" to a Mac 
(before the ads, mind you) and I don't regret it for a second. The new mac I bought is 100mhz slower than the dell i bought 2 years ago. Do i miss those 100mhz? No. Are there other more important things that make up for it? You bet. Like the ad says, "it sends other unix [window managers] to /dev/null"

I've used PC's since I was like 3. When you get used to them they aren't so bad. The whole competitve-marketplace-for-apps-and-hardware thing makes them pretty attractive, and keeps their performance on the cutting edge. If you're into having the hardware for its own sake, get a PC. But as I'm getting older and more jaded, well, ok, FEELING older and more jaded, performance is meaning less and less. 

Games and servers aside, does all that performance really get you anything? You have to wait on the HD for most things anyway, so really what's the difference between 1 and 3 GHz? If you work with graphics, then maybe you've got a bone to pick, but most other applications won't notice the difference. The last "killer-app" to seriously tax computer hardware was the web. All computers now can pretty much deal with it. Until the next big thing comes along, what do you need more mhz for? (like i said, games and servers aside)

Who cares if you can do things quickly if the things that you are doing suck? It's all about the operating system. Most of your time is spent interacting with it. Windows is aggravating and Linux is a chore. If I could buy a cheap, fast machine with mac os and a sleep function like mac's, i would. But i can't. And good thing for Apple, too. Would you buy a car with 500hp if the seats were wooden and gave you splinters? Ok, bad example maybe, cause driving fast is a lot more fun than typing fast, but you get the picture.

Everybody assumes that computers will just keep getting faster and faster and if you get left behind the wave, then you won't have any fun. Think about this: If suddenly all computer manufacturers vanished, and no more computers were made, would you be happy with the one you have NOW? For the rest of your life? I would. I couldn't say the same about any computer before this one (700mhz iBook that has yet to prove underpowered for anything important)


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## culo77 (Jul 24, 2002)

I SWITCHED BACKKKK!!!!!!!!!! 

Got your attention huh?

I only switched back cause over a year ago I got my iBook (Orange clamshell) stolen  Man did that suck Azz.... And before OS X too ughhhhhh

I had and still have a PC, even with the mac.
I think my PC does serve its puprpose (well untill i save for a powerbook 800). 

I like my PC, its a intel 850mhz runnin "Windoze crashME".  I am not a man that needs the fastest thing out there, so the speed of my PC is great, i just need more memory. Its a great machine butt IT RUNS WINDOWS ME. yes i have thrown my keyboard out my window three times out anger. (its getting expensive to replace).

When I get my Powerbook (or iBook if i dont save enough) I will still keep my PC just so i can continue playing the NBA LIVE (I got an awesome franchise going). and cause I am to ocheap to buy Vitural PC and M$ office, thats $700 for two programs i wont use


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## dtmdoc (Jul 25, 2002)

i was a long time pc user, and at times miss wintel for the games 
and hardware available for gaming... otherwise, i dont miss it at all..

i do still have an old dell laptop (pII 233) with win98.  just in case.
but havent used it in months


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## fryke (Jul 25, 2002)

Switching to the Dark Side is usually a two bladed sword.

At first, of course, your new hardware is great, anyway. You'll be getting 'into it' a little bit. You'll find that there actually _are_ things done better in Windows, while other stuff will frustrate you - but it's all a matter of getting used to it, right?

After a few weeks, you'll notice that it's not. Mac OS X may have its flaws like any other operating system, but there are so many things done right that using another operating system will always render you less productive.

With Jaguar around the corner, I think it's the worst time to switch to the wrong side, as this upgrade is going to make life on Mac OS X even more a pleasure.

I still have a PC under my desk, but the 17" LCD is hooked up to my TiBook. I only need the PC to test some stuff I'm developing for the web - and to watch TV. But then again I also have a TV for watching TV.


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## genghiscohen (Jul 25, 2002)

I've been using Windows at work for several years.  That experience has inoculated me against any temptation to switch to the Dark Side.
I do occasionally think about picking up a cheapo PC to run Linux on.  But Windoze?  *No freaking way!*


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## fryke (Jul 25, 2002)

I have installed Linux on my PC, too. But I have to say that I'm just not the PC person, although I've administered, configured and installed many of them in my life. (Or maybe BECAUSE.) Linux is a fine operating system for all of our web- and mailservers, but it's not there yet for your desktop. Or for mine, at least. I don't do any actual work on a Linux box, even writing stories (for which basically ANY computer ever built should be enough) isn't what I want to do on that machine.

I guess it comes down to whether you're a 'Mac person' or a 'PC person'. And I think a lot of today's PC users are - at their heart - Mac persons, only, they don't know it yet. So I think the Switch campaign of Apple makes sense. (Although I hate to watch those ads.)


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## jocknerd (Jul 25, 2002)

For me, linux on the desktop makes perfect sense. I LOVE that I have the ability to tweak it however I want. That is definitely one thing I miss on OS X. No, there isn't an icon or a gui app for doing everything you want, I always have a shell window open. Of course I pretty much have terminal open on OS X all the time too.

It all comes down to what you are used to. When I've run windows, I feel like my hands are tied. OS X definitely gives me more freedom on the desktop and makes many things really easy. And Linux allows me the most freedom, but still requires that I work under the hood for some things.  Of course, too much choice and freedom on the desktop can definitely scare off some people.


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## fryke (Jul 25, 2002)

Well, it's really a bit like with cars (for the desktop user at least).

Linux is your hot rod. You'll change bits and pieces to get the last bit of power out of it. You'll drive it in your spare time, outside of town. You'll have to get the mixture of gasoline right yourself, too.

Windows is a cheap station wagon. It *should* work well, but you'll have to fiddle with it a lot.

And Mac OS X is like the Smart. It'll bring you from point A to B - no problem. You won't have to take a look under the hood (if you'll even find where to look exactly), but it also won't let you easily.

I, personally, prefer the last one, as I'm not a computer hobbyist. My hobby is writing, and my computer should just let me do that. And my profession is graphics artist - not desktop customizer. So I also don't really care for themes much and like to have the handles where I expect them to be.


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## jocknerd (Jul 25, 2002)

I'm an Information Technology Analyst for a personnel department in a local government, which means I'm a Lan Administrator, Tech Support, Programmer, babysitter, etc.  I would have loved tohave put an Apple on everyone's desk, but it just wasn't feasible. So I ordered 20 Dell Pentium 4's 1.8ghz and 400mhz FSB to replace the 5 year old PC's on everyone's desks. Ordered them with Windows 2000 since I despise everything Microsoft has become so there's no way I'd ever order XP. They are already running Office 2000 so I didn't need to replace that. These computers cost me around $1400 each with 15" lcd monitors.  Hopefully in 3 or 4 years, I can justify purchasing iMac's provided the costs are similar and the performance is similar. Plus I'm hoping by then to replace Office 2000 with Open Office or Star Office and a OS X native version is available.

My goal next year is to replace my work computer with a PowerBook. I'll need to work on the Director though.


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## mrfluffy (Jul 25, 2002)

no, the only reason would be games, but I've got an N64 and a PS2 so it isnt worth it. and there's the fact that windows is utter crap


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## toast (Jul 29, 2002)

Install Debian.


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## mccallister (Aug 1, 2002)

I've been in computer support since 79 (PCs starting in 89).  I first used a Mac in 92 to do cad drawings for our site plans (passed on to me by the person who did it previously).  I hated the damn thing as it consistently gave me the dreaded bomb.  I quickly switched to a PC version.

Alone the way I built my own windows boxes and acquired an MCSE.  Ironically, I was hired by my college to support its 400 Macs.

I cursed the darn things.  OS9 constantly locked up on me.  I could not understand why Mac people were so dedicated to Apple when the darn things locked up all the time.  I was happy at home with my win2k server as it never locked up on me.  The only thing that bugged me was the lousy security and constant security patches for the win2k.

Then OSX came out.  Oh baby, this is it!  Unix security with idiot-proof GUI access.  I've given my PC to my son and now only use Macs.

Home (actually belongs to the college): PBG4 800  1GB RAM  40GB HD Combo Drive

Work:  4 G4 733 servers 1.5GB RAM  100GB RAID


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## Koelling (Aug 2, 2002)

This is it baby. There are times when I've toyed with the idea of 2 ghz but for linux only and when I go that route I loose some things I love. The ease of use, the commercial apps, the Macintosh community. I might consider making my main machine Linux if I could get Photoshop for it (gimp isn't it) but what I have now is great. The ability to run X Windows side by side with Aqua seemlessly.

OS X is the future, and we're only in the first iterations. Look at how long XP has been in development (starting from NT) and it's just now useable. Despite some rather terrible decisions such as .mac looking so much like .net I think Apple will be there for the alternative culture for years to come and will be the worlds last chance to break the M$ mold.


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## toast (Aug 4, 2002)

OSX will be the future when benchmarks tests will tell that OSX machines are faster at 3-D rendering than XP machines.

The 3-D render is just an example. I think my point is clear: OSX is too slow. I still WAIT for my browser to open, while PC people on XP just see a slight taskbar animation and that's it, the window is there.

Is speed the price of stability ?


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## Jason (Aug 5, 2002)

im an equal user here, and i'll be honest

winxp is faster, just as stable and does everything i need and is also more open to modifications

osx is purty, stable etc, but it is too damned slow, and it needs more options

my 700mhz athlon running XP pro runs circles around my 800mhz power mac g4 in every day OS tasks, apple still has improvements to make

now you ask... why do i use a mac? because i like em, same as pc's i like em both, and they are both amazing in their own merits...

all this debating which one is better, when really they are equal over all... they are just different and suit different people differently...

simple eh?


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## MDA (Aug 5, 2002)

For me it doesn't really matter how fast XP is because that isn't the point. Windows has always been behind the Mac OS because it simply doesn't allow you to be as productive. The Mac OS was designed by people who understood the end user experience. Windows... well Windows was backwards engineered from the Mac OS by a bunch of geeks who had no idea how to make things work best for the end user. That's the case whether you're talking about Windows 95 or Windows XP, a 486 or a Pentium 4. It doesn't matter how fast it is if it's running the wrong OS.

MDA


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## asr (Aug 5, 2002)

Until recently, I have used mainly Windows98 and a bit of BeOS.  I have decided to switch because of my recent experiences with WindowsXP.  I have been using it steadily for about a month and have had an enormous number of program crashes.  Fortunately, I don't need to reboot afterwards anymore, but the program crashes are even more frequent than in Win98.

I am definitely going to try my luck with a Mac.  I will start with an eMac to try it out and if all goes well, I will never go back (at least not full time -- I still have to use a PC laptop for work).

For me, WinXP is the *biggest* reason to switch to OS X.

By the way, this is my first post.  Thanks to everyone here for helping me make up my mind about OS X.


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## fryke (Aug 8, 2002)

I think it's nice how this thread turned pro Mac quite fast. 

But then again, we ARE on a Mac-centric forum here and I would think that on a Windows XP forum, we'd hear quite different voices.

Alas, it's fun to be on the right side, I guess...

Just another information. I _do_ have an old PC box under my desk that is working quite well for my everyday tasks that I do on it: Surfing and watching TV. But I had to 'upgrade' from Windows XP to Windows 2000, which is much faster and cleaner, I think, because the drivers for my Hauppauge TV card are much better on Win2K, which I don't really understand, since there must be many, many users of those cards using WinXP. Plus I've ditched RedHat from that machine, too, as I do my testing for web development on my PowerBook before going live on our Linux servers, which works just as great. If only our colocation hosting company had some Xserves ready for me... *sigh*


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## fryke (Aug 8, 2002)

Seems like it's flame war day... *sigh* The following article is about a reverse-switcher.

http://www.machelpnet.com/articles/020808switch.html

And there's a petition to flame an author of an osopinion.com column on http://mac.fryke.com today...


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## Tigger (Aug 8, 2002)

You know, the Mac community is really nice, but what I really hate sometimes, is this "We are better than you because we use Macs" thinking, and everyone using Windows out of his own will is just stupid.

On these "flame days" I really think hard about switching to Windows and never look back...


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## MDA (Aug 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Tigger _
> *You know, the Mac community is really nice, but what I really hate sometimes, is this "We are better than you because we use Macs" thinking, and everyone using Windows out of his own will is just stupid.
> 
> On these "flame days" I really think hard about switching to Windows and never look back...  *



You have obviously never been in an environment that is hostile towards Mac users on a daily basis like I have. I work in an MIS department as the only Mac support person and it isn't easy. Don't for a second doubt that many Windows users think that Mac users are idiots.

MDA


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## Tigger (Aug 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by MDA _
> *
> 
> You have obviously never been in an environment that is hostile towards Mac users on a daily basis like I have. I work in an MIS department as the only Mac support person and it isn't easy. Don't for a second doubt that many Windows users think that Mac users are idiots.
> ...


Oh yes, I have been there.
But only because they do, have Mac users have to do the same?

Anyway, a little bit more back on topic:
My problem: I am a gamer. That's why I even thought about buying a PC.
I never had a problem with the fewer games that are out there (my only problem is with great games that come months later, like Undying. I love Blizzard  )

Okay, a Mac with finally DDR might really be sufficient for the current games and games to come in the next year, but what I really don't see is why I should pay more money for a slower computer.
Okay, there are several reasons why I should: iTunes, iMovie, iPhoto. Some people say we pay them too with the prices of Macs. But Steve Jobs tells me they are for free... Well, just another lie he is telling to his customers?


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## AlCamus (Aug 10, 2002)

Hey, I'd love to make the switch. But I'm so indentured to Wintel (both in hardware and software investments) that, short of a windfall or working a second job, it's presently impossible.

The Switch ad campaign lured me to drive 200 miles to an Apple store to see what all the fuss was about; once there, I fell head over heels for an iMac and OS X, to no avail.

I feel like a hooked fish with no place to swim but upstream.

http://www.savoymag.org/switch/


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## vic (Aug 10, 2002)

Yes, i did. And BTW, it's nice to be back here, some of you may remeber me from long ago, i havent posted here in months... Oh, it's been too long. I was a macaddict, preaching the story all around me to everyone. untill OS X came. then Expectations led to dissapointment, and dissapointment lead back to OS 9. OS 9 led to crashes, which lead back to OS X, now os x.1 Os x.1 led to more dissapontments (they have been discussed here many times even by dire mac heads like i used to be, so i wont mention them).

After evaluating the factors, Slow mac hardware, (466 mhz) + Crashy OS 9 (not even multitasking mind u), + Slower than hell OS X (but stable) + uncustomizable interface (yes, this is a selling point, for me the more options the better, i am not affraid of learning new software or tinkering with hardware.) led to consideration of buying a PC. i said, ok, wait a while. i waited. I got into college, 3 labs full of mac, we just got 20-30 pieces of the "Clone wars" e-Macs, etc, in all i think i have access to about 70 macs on one campus -sweet you might say. All of them are running os 9. they crash to. and don't multitask. soon we will get os x, but i can't wait, time is money for me. So i evaluated my options: stay with current hardware. (slow, crashy fast os 9 v.s. slow stable os x)  or sell it - i got 960 cnd $ for my mac - and add and extra 300 $ (effectively rendering a 1200$ computer only 300$ - sweet eh?) this new PC that i have is 2.0 Ghz, (overclockable to 2.6 ghz - 256 DDR ram 333 Mhz for those that care. <- see, PC's ARE faster! just look at the ram. 40GB hardrive(this doesnt count, my old mac had 30 gb, 10 extra, big deal). good souncard (this doesnt count, macs have prety good sound cards too) 16 DVD -do macs have 16X DVD? i dunno. 32 CD-RW, i don't think macs have 32X burners either. so now, i can copy from cd to cd. AND rip dvd's to cd's (oh, yeah like you wouldnt do it!) something else that bugged me was that my friend just bought (switched from PC to Mac 1 down, 95% to go.) a new mac for 2500$ cnd. adn his computer is 40GB hd, 800 Mhz g4 (like a 1000 - 1200 Ghz p4) 512 sdram (the slow kind 133Mhz) and cd burner. look at that money! i could have gotten 3 computers like mine for that money! I am also a student, so those fancy $1.000.000.00 dual Ghz macs arent an option for me. so, here i am, admitting that i have betrayed you, and 2 years of mac addiction, only to be reduced to a person who has knowledge of how to use very well both mac and pc's and who can have a unbiased opinion on the good and bad aspects of both platforms. - BTW, those that think XP sucks, it doesn't, i have not crashed ONCE with XP!. (got 2 kernel panics in one year of OS X) XP, is also WAY faster that os X is. (in the interface) and for those that don't like the look you can get the classic one (or even os x look alike skins if shiny buttons you fancy). something that i wish os x had available. (sometimes i feel like eyecandy, sometimes i don't.) and oh yeah, the start menu and task bar are way more useful than the dock and the idea that the interface should focus on switching between apps (ala mac) than switching between windows (ala windows) is better, is wrong (yeas i am a fan of sun on senteces and bad grammar, never mind spelling). and for those that think u can't customize windows, with os x on our shoulders windows has become the most customizable os around (exept linux perhaps) - this is not at all in defence of Microsoft! oh, please don't even go there, believe me i hate them as much as you do, but my preference for os is my preference, and the opinions above i hope will be repected as my opinions just as i  respect your opinions.

that is my "swith over" and i leave you well.


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## pezagent (Aug 11, 2002)

I've been using Apple products for over twenty years. I'm glad this topic came up, or I would have posted it myself.

Frankly, I'm sick of Apple. I'm sick of Microsoft. I'm sick of everybody treating this like it's some sort of holy war. There's no such thing as "good vs. evil". There is such a thing, however, as _balance_  and _harmony_ .

This world we live in, it's a funny place. Everywhere you turn, somebody's tryin' to sell you somethin'. Technology. The latest and the greatest. How is this bickering about Mac vs. PC ever going to evolve into a neutral state? It reminds me of the race wars: black vs. white. Or how about politics: repub or dem? Seems like humans always have to have a side to take and something to fight for. But that's the nature of humanity. It's all part of the big picture, making sure we don't become complacent and forget to evolve.

The new Apple campaign really sickens me. The company that once told us to "think different" is now telling people to "switch". Talk about mixed messages. I mean let's face it, if I "think different" than I suppose that means I should be using whatever system I feel like using. (Why do I always feel like I'm in a frickin' 12-step program when I listen to Apple campaigns?)


If I continue to "support" Apple as the underdog and buy their products, even if they don't always work, should I start giving my money to other charities as well? I mean, this is a charity, right? Apple posted 5 billion in sales with a 25 million dollar loss last year. Wait, read that again. *5 billion dollars* . Now, in the scope of the world, that may not seem like much, but to me, it's quite a few bucks. How the hell can Apple, with such a loyal following and such devoted customers, post 5 billion in revenue and still lose 25 million bucks? Is this the type of company I should switch to?

I've been around navi's since I was a wee tot. For thirty years I've been part of the computer evolution... and I'm not impressed one frickin' bit by Apple or Winblows. Most of the benefits and features of today's computers should have been released eons ago. I can't understand how people get so excited over things like "the dock" or "iTunes". You know what I hate about iTunes? It's removed me from the visuals--Apple, the very company that touted the iconic GUI gives us an MP3 player with a "grocery list" of all my music. I had to write my own program just to put the album covers in with the music lists. Hey, I was just "thinking different" I guess.

Anyway, I'm switching to Windows. Why? More choice, better performance, easier upgrade paths, better hardware, same software choices, more game choices, and it will allow me to save money for the important things in life--my family, my friends, and our future together. I can't justify investing in Apple technology anymore when it isn't even Apple technology I'm buying--just a modified case with one-click mouse. (I will keep my other Macs, like the one I'm on now... I'm switching to Microsoft, but I'm not stooopid). 

In a few moments, when I go to bed and curl up with my wife, will it have mattered if I used an Apple computer or a Windows machine to share with you my thoughts? This whole computer thing--it's just another phase we have to go through to get to the next step. My kids are going to be living in a world of genetic engineering, DNA computing, wireless communication, and all sorts of techno-BS--I don't think they'll give a crap which platform helps them with their homework. When was the last time you gave loyalty to your telephone? Or your toaster? Once upon a time these were new technologies as well... if your Grandparents are still around, ask them what sort of world they used to live in. Same needs, different products. Sun still shines, sun still sets. 

If you've got your head in the Mac vs. PC Holy War, (MPCHW), then go outside and take a breath of fresh air. That's LifeOS. And it kicks the shite out of every other OS on this planet.

Laters.


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## pezagent (Aug 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by mrfluffy _
> *{...}and there's the fact that windows is utter crap *


That's an opinion, not a fact. You'll get farther in life when you can learn to differentiate between the two.


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## pezagent (Aug 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Koelling _
> *OS X is the future, and we're only in the first iterations. Look at how long XP has been in development (starting from NT) and it's just now useable. Despite some rather terrible decisions such as .mac looking so much like .net I think Apple will be there for the alternative culture for years to come and will be the worlds last chance to break the M$ mold. *


I really hope that OSX isn't the future. As far as comparing OSX to XP, well, let's... OSX has been in development far longer than XP, because XP is actually another version of 2000, built on NT. Apple has had access to Unix technology for plenty of time but we've been stuck with a hyped version of System 7 called OS9 for how long now? As far as people always bitchin' about how NT wasn't usable--well, explain that to all the SoftImage users who NEEDED NT becuase Apple couldn't cut the mustard. 

Using terms like "the worlds last chance" and "alternative culture" are enough to make me want to switch to Microsoft, because I'm sick of feeling like I'm in some sort of frickin' Mac-cult. What's all the rebellion about? Can Mac users ever get a whiff of the big picture or do they all suffer from savior complexes? If you actually think Apple has a chance of "breaking the M$ mold" then perhaps you should forget about "thinking different" and just stick to "thinking"

PS... Apple may have a chance in hell if we get rid of Jobs... he's really the village idiot in disguise.


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## pezagent (Aug 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by MDA _
> *For me it doesn't really matter how fast XP is because that isn't the point. Windows has always been behind the Mac OS because it simply doesn't allow you to be as productive. The Mac OS was designed by people who understood the end user experience. Windows... well Windows was backwards engineered from the Mac OS by a bunch of geeks who had no idea how to make things work best for the end user. That's the case whether you're talking about Windows 95 or Windows XP, a 486 or a Pentium 4. It doesn't matter how fast it is if it's running the wrong OS.
> 
> MDA *


This is just so wrong. How can an operating system make you more productive? I used to use this argument when I was a MacEvangelIdiot as well... _duh, macs are more "productive" duh_ 

I got news for ya, Macs aren't any more "productive" than their Windows competition.  Any post on here that tells you that XP is better than OS X is telling you straight up. I tested these systems side by side, and guess what? I could make the iMac running OSX crash 5 times just by playing a game of chess. 

If you still believe this sort of macinhooey then you deserve to be a MacinPuppet for the rest of your life. As far as the "bunch of geeks" comment--yeah, man, Steve Jobs is just too frickin' cool--not. As far as I'm concerned , the whole computer industry is just one big geekfest.


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## hulkaros (Aug 11, 2002)

...to troll around... The PezagenTROLL that is!  

Here is some other AWESOME trolling that he mastered:
http://www.macosx.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15885&pagenumber=5

And my reply there:
"...the thing that he/she knows best: Trolling in here! 

Here is another magnificent trolling of his/her:
http://www.macosx.com/forums/showth...=&postid=140282

However for those who don't want to read the above link, here is my reply to PezagenTROLL posted there:

" Hey... After AZOSX, another troll is in da house! 

Come, Pezagen-TROLL, come... It seems that www.macosx.com and its apple nature attracted another troll in here...

Well, ladies & gentlemen our new troll is (drumrolls):

-> PEZAGENT <-
aka: PezagenTROLL  "

Isn't it nice to have two trolls in the same forum (Azosx & now Pezagent)?  "


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## vic (Aug 11, 2002)

pezagent, i'll give you advice, i once read a joke that said: "if you win an argument on the internet - it's like winning the special Olympics, your still retarded" i learned from that. The best way to get out of opinion arguments, like most of the arguments here in this thread are, is to ignore them.


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## MDA (Aug 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by pezagent _
> *
> This is just so wrong. How can an operating system make you more productive? I used to use this argument when I was a MacEvangelIdiot as well... duh, macs are more "productive" duh
> 
> ...



For me and a lot of other people Macs ARE more productive. If that's not true for you that's great. I've used XP and to me it's just Windows with a new Fisher-Price GUI. Your "side by side" tests mean nothing to me, I'm sure there are things you can do in XP to bring the system down. You might also check your installation of OS X because playing a game of chess shouldn't bring it down. Have you tried tossing your chess prefs file?

I believe this "macinhooey" because I have a far easier time getting around and being productive in the Mac OS then I do in any version of Windows.


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## pezagent (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by vic _
> *Yes, i did. And BTW, it's nice to be back here, some of you may remeber me from long ago, i havent posted here in months... Oh, it's been too long. I was a macaddict, preaching the story all around me to everyone. untill OS X came. then Expectations led to dissapointment, and dissapointment lead back to OS 9. OS 9 led to crashes, which lead back to OS X, now os x.1 Os x.1 led to more dissapontments (they have been discussed here many times even by dire mac heads like i used to be, so i wont mention them).
> 
> After evaluating the factors, Slow mac hardware, (466 mhz) + Crashy OS 9 (not even multitasking mind u), + Slower than hell OS X (but stable) + uncustomizable interface (yes, this is a selling point, for me the more options the better, i am not affraid of learning new software or tinkering with hardware.) led to consideration of buying a PC. i said, ok, wait a while. i waited. I got into college, 3 labs full of mac, we just got 20-30 pieces of the "Clone wars" e-Macs, etc, in all i think i have access to about 70 macs on one campus -sweet you might say. All of them are running os 9. they crash to. and don't multitask. soon we will get os x, but i can't wait, time is money for me. So i evaluated my options: stay with current hardware. (slow, crashy fast os 9 v.s. slow stable os x)  or sell it - i got 960 cnd $ for my mac - and add and extra 300 $ (effectively rendering a 1200$ computer only 300$ - sweet eh?) this new PC that i have is 2.0 Ghz, (overclockable to 2.6 ghz - 256 DDR ram 333 Mhz for those that care. <- see, PC's ARE faster! just look at the ram. 40GB hardrive(this doesnt count, my old mac had 30 gb, 10 extra, big deal). good souncard (this doesnt count, macs have prety good sound cards too) 16 DVD -do macs have 16X DVD? i dunno. 32 CD-RW, i don't think macs have 32X burners either. so now, i can copy from cd to cd. AND rip dvd's to cd's (oh, yeah like you wouldnt do it!) something else that bugged me was that my friend just bought (switched from PC to Mac 1 down, 95% to go.) a new mac for 2500$ cnd. adn his computer is 40GB hd, 800 Mhz g4 (like a 1000 - 1200 Ghz p4) 512 sdram (the slow kind 133Mhz) and cd burner. look at that money! i could have gotten 3 computers like mine for that money! I am also a student, so those fancy $1.000.000.00 dual Ghz macs arent an option for me. so, here i am, admitting that i have betrayed you, and 2 years of mac addiction, only to be reduced to a person who has knowledge of how to use very well both mac and pc's and who can have a unbiased opinion on the good and bad aspects of both platforms. - BTW, those that think XP sucks, it doesn't, i have not crashed ONCE with XP!. (got 2 kernel panics in one year of OS X) XP, is also WAY faster that os X is. (in the interface) and for those that don't like the look you can get the classic one (or even os x look alike skins if shiny buttons you fancy). something that i wish os x had available. (sometimes i feel like eyecandy, sometimes i don't.) and oh yeah, the start menu and task bar are way more useful than the dock and the idea that the interface should focus on switching between apps (ala mac) than switching between windows (ala windows) is better, is wrong (yeas i am a fan of sun on senteces and bad grammar, never mind spelling). and for those that think u can't customize windows, with os x on our shoulders windows has become the most customizable os around (exept linux perhaps) - this is not at all in defence of Microsoft! oh, please don't even go there, believe me i hate them as much as you do, but my preference for os is my preference, and the opinions above i hope will be repected as my opinions just as i  respect your opinions.
> ...



Well, another satisfied Apple customer. 

If you've been reading my posts, you know I'm also an ex-Mac (L)User. 

If Apple would spend more time trying to make systems that work instead of relying upon the blind faith of Apple fanatics everywhere, they might actually stop losing customers.

I'm wondering how many loyal users Apple loses for every customer is tries to gain? 2 to 1? 3 to 1?

The switch campaign is a pain--Apple needs to kill it before it does more harm than good. Steve, if you're ever listening, get a real marketing team. 

Unlike this poster, I COULD afford the top of the line G4 systems, but why do I want to fork out the extra cash? That's just dumb.


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## pezagent (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by MDA _
> *
> 
> For me and a lot of other people Macs ARE more productive. If that's not true for you that's great. I've used XP and to me it's just Windows with a new Fisher-Price GUI. *



Well, here we go with the Fisher-Price GUI. What's wrong with the Fisher-Price GUI? Apple's Aqua is the GUI that gives you giant icons that tell you nothing about the documents they represent and the dock is a joke. The quartz rendering also looks like crap.


> * Your "side by side" tests mean nothing to me, I'm sure there are things you can do in XP to bring the system down. You might also check your installation of OS X because playing a game of chess shouldn't bring it down. Have you tried tossing your chess prefs file?*


Tossing the preferences file. That's the Macs answer for everything. A long time ago when I purchased ProTools for the Mac, I got digital "zipper" noise when using the faders. "Trash the prefs file" was all the hope tech support could come up with. I called a Mac audio guru in who assured me the propblem was fixable, even though I had already tried everything. He spent two hours fucking around with my system, replaced the whole OS, and wasted my time. Still had the zipper noise. Do you know what the problem was? The processor wasn't fast enough and the OS didn't handle the audio processing correctly. Other companies such as Cubase had developed Nuendo on the PC--Mac didn't have the chutzpa.

I'm sorry, I'm getting distracted... well, my side by side tests may not interest you, because you want to believe that your mac is the best thing since sliced bread, but perhaps maybe there are more people out there like me who are fed up with Apple and want to switch over... it's a tough choice...


> *
> I believe this "macinhooey" because I have a far easier time getting around and being productive in the Mac OS then I do in any version of Windows. *



I don't believe you. I don't believe that somehow, say, using Photoshop in Windows is different than using Photoshop on a Mac. Considering the software has exactly the same features on both machines, why would you be more productive on one than the other?

I used to _think_ I was more productive on a Mac, but that was just me being ignorant. I'm typing this post to you on a PC laptop. It's no less or more productive than any Macintosh.


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## edX (Aug 12, 2002)

yo pez - you sound like a born again Christian. like you have just discovered something for the first time that you have ignored all along and now it has filled your life with unending joy. (like a pc could really do that  )

so why don't you go find a windows/pc forum to brag about your brilliant discovery? after all it is clear that no one here has ever used a pc and never will.  

truthfully, why do you hang out here and post to every other thread? could it be you are still trying to convince yourself you made the right move? or could it be you are just the type of person who must try to convince others? what causes this deep seated need to 'evangalize'?

and keep making attacks upon mac users and you will quickly find yourself removed from this site by forces other than your own choice.


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## pezagent (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ed Spruiell _
> *yo pez - you sound like a born again Christian. like you have just discovered something for the first time that you have ignored all along and now it has filled your life with unending joy. (like a pc could really do that  )
> 
> so why don't you go find a windows/pc forum to brag about your brilliant discovery? after all it is clear that no one here has ever used a pc and never will.
> ...



Attacks? Oh, I'm sorry, I'm not allowed to voice my opinion here? So let's get this straight... because I'm not satisfied with Apple right now I have to keep my mouth shut? Gimmie a break.

A forum is a place to express opinion. If you'd like to fly down to my place I'd be happy to put you up for a few nights while you can teach me how to appropriately make posts to a forum. I don't see any rules here that say how many posts I can make at a time or what I can and cannot think about when I react to someone else's post.

My deep seated need to "evangelize" comes from the fact that I've been a Mac (L)User for 20 years and I'm sick of Apple's campaigns that aren't getting the company anywhere. 

As far as the "attacks" thing goes, that's your opinion. I'm not here to enable people to make up their own idealistic ways the world should work. 

As far as threatening me with possible removal from this forum, I would say that you take your job as administrator too seriously. I'm sure if were bashing PCs all day long you wouldn't take the time to post back to me at all. So don't give me this double-standard crap, please. If you actually decide to READ some of my posts and develop a rap with me, maybe we can get someplace. But just assuming I'm here to bash Apple is pure ignorance on your part.

Regards,

me.


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## pezagent (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ed Spruiell _
> *yo pez - you sound like a born again Christian. like you have just discovered something for the first time that you have ignored all along and now it has filled your life with unending joy.
> *



Well Ed, maybe you'd like this tidbit:

Everyday I wake up, dig?

And maybe you're right. Maybe this is all about losing my religion. Is it my fault it would affect me so? This very forum and every other Mac forum I know of refers to Microsoft as "the dark side" or the "evil empire". Now, I know I _shoudn't_ take this stuff seriously, but how can I not? Apple's PR machine shoves it down my throat that Macs "just work" and nothing else will do. Is it my fault that switching to another platform makes me feel like I'm committing an eternal sin?


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## vic (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ed Spruiell _
> *yo pez - you sound like a born again Christian. like you have just discovered something for the first time that you have ignored all along and now it has filled your life with unending joy. (like a pc could really do that  )
> 
> so why don't you go find a windows/pc forum to brag about your brilliant discovery? after all it is clear that no one here has ever used a pc and never will.
> ...



aparently 9 of us not only used a pc but switched ovr, and i think that plenty if not EVERYONE had to use a PC once in their life, wether they liked it or not.


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## vic (Aug 12, 2002)

Ed, or are you trying to be sarcastic... sorry if i misunderstood you.

P.S. 

if there is a problem with mac-vs-PC discussions, dont you think it would be wiser to moderate thread starters than thread posters? waht exactly is the topic of this thread? i think whoever started this thread is the one you need to talk to if you don't like opinions from people that don't use macs, becasue this thread is a magnet for anybody even pc users or mac people that switched tot he pc, as the poll states, and thus i think everyone need the freedom to speack freely as long as they are on topic and not swering or demeaning towards other people.


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## Scifience (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by culo77 _*and cause I am to ocheap to buy Vitural PC and M$ office, thats $700 for two programs i wont use
> *



If you have Office for Windows, you can just buy Virtual PC and run the Windows version of Office on your Mac.  Virtual PC itself isn't too overpriced, considering that to buy only the Microsoft OS included is $200.


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## vic (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Scifience _
> *
> 
> If you have Office for Windows, you can just buy Virtual PC and run the Windows version of Office on your Mac.  Virtual PC itself isn't too overpriced, considering that to buy only the Microsoft OS included is $200. *



do people still BUY software?


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## pezagent (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by vic _
> *
> 
> do people still BUY software?  *



LOL--- this is possibly the ONLY thing keeping me from really just chucking my Mac out the window... all the lovely software already installed on it.

But this was something Apple had to consider--people like me, working with OS9, waiting for OSX to come out--bang! Here comes OSX, still shipping with "Classic OS" ug... with no Applications ready to take advantage of OSX... (and what am I supposed to do about Adobe Streamline? I depend on that POS for my art, man) so, yet, another consideration was this: well, I'm upgrading my software anyway, now's a good as time as any to look at the competition... 

Guess it's back to Hotline for me...


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## MDA (Aug 12, 2002)

Originally posted by pezagent

"Well, here we go with the Fisher-Price GUI. What's wrong with the Fisher-Price GUI? Apple's Aqua is the GUI that gives you giant icons that tell you nothing about the documents they represent and the dock is a joke. The quartz rendering also looks like crap."

Actually the Dock isn't a joke. I find that I'm alway going down to the bottom
of the screen for the dock even when I'm in OS 9. The Quartz rendering looks just fine on my flat-panel.

"Tossing the preferences file. That's the Macs answer for everything. A long time ago when I purchased ProTools for the Mac, I got digital "zipper" noise when using the faders. "Trash the prefs file" was all the hope tech support could come up with. I called a Mac audio guru in who assured me the propblem was fixable, even though I had already tried everything. He spent two hours fucking around with my system, replaced the whole OS, and wasted my time. Still had the zipper noise. Do you know what the problem was? The processor wasn't fast enough and the OS didn't handle the audio processing correctly. Other companies such as Cubase had developed Nuendo on the PC--Mac didn't have the chutzpa."

I told you to toss the prefs file because 9 times out of 10 it makes all the difference unlike on a PC where the remedy most often suggested is to reinstall Windows

"I'm sorry, I'm getting distracted... well, my side by side tests may not interest you, because you want to believe that your mac is the best thing since sliced bread, but perhaps maybe there are more people out there like me who are fed up with Apple and want to switch over... it's a tough choice..."

Your "side by side" test mean nothing to me because they're anecdotal. I find that I'm much more frustrated trying to get things done using Windows. That's my anecdotal evidence.


"I don't believe you. I don't believe that somehow, say, using Photoshop in Windows is different than using Photoshop on a Mac. Considering the software has exactly the same features on both machines, why would you be more productive on one than the other?"

I don't care whether you believe me or not. Not all work done on computers is done in applications. Navigating around in Windows is far more frustrating for me than navigating the Mac OS. I've also heard from others that applications like Photoshop don't in fact work as well in Windows as they do in the Mac OS, again only anecdotal evidence. If Windows makes your day then by all means go use it and quit posting to this forum

MDA


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## Jason (Aug 12, 2002)

this is all too funny

mac osx and windows xp are almost the same, working within the os is almost the same

things minimze to the bottom, you got your links in a bar on the bottom, you browse your folders in one window, everything is candy coated a purdy looking etc etc

photoshop? works the same on my 800mhz g4 and my 700mhz pc, the g4 is a bit faster but thats expected... but my pc was faster than a 500mhz g4 i tested against side by side...

they are so equal and the same in so many ways i love both and wouldnt want to rid myself of either... people are so violent and close minded when it comes to OS's sheesh


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## MDA (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by BuddahBobb _
> *this is all too funny
> 
> mac osx and windows xp are almost the same, working within the os is almost the same
> ...



I'm sure it must be a very self satisfied feeling to believe you are above the OS wars and superior because of it. If however your a part of the 5% and dwindling market share Mac community it isn't that easy to ignore. If you watch department after department at your business be forced to adopt PC's over Mac's because of poor planning for Mac users it isn't that easy to ignore.

As for there being no difference between using Windows or the Mac OS, I suggest you call a service bureau and ask them what kind of a file they prefer to work with. No one in the publishing world who knows what they are doing uses PC's.

MDA


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## Tigger (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by vic _
> *...if there is a problem with mac-vs-PC discussions, dont you think it would be wiser to moderate thread starters than thread posters? waht exactly is the topic of this thread? i think whoever started this thread is the one you need to talk to if you don't like opinions from people that don't use macs, becasue this thread is a magnet for anybody even pc users or mac people that switched tot he pc, as the poll states, and thus i think everyone need the freedom to speack freely as long as they are on topic and not swering or demeaning towards other people. *


You are right, I shouldn't have started this topic (Seriously).

It was clear from the beginning what it would be going to. That is why xlr8yourmac.com has its own board for PC-Mac wars.

Please Ed, shut this thread down. It doesn't lead anywhere.
Everyone is just getting insulting in here. Again.


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## xaqintosh (Aug 12, 2002)

I think that if you deleted the first post the entire thread would be deleted, but I'm not sure...


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## edX (Aug 12, 2002)

first, there is no reason to shut this thread down. i think it has many good points. just play nice guys. pez tends to get a bit emotional about all this and doesn't seem to realize that insulting mac users as a group insults each of us individually as well. as for pc bashing - well, this is a mac forum. it's what we do from time to time. often with good reason, often without. but you wouldn't walk into a feminist convention and start spouting chauvenist remarks and expect to get out unscathed now, would you? people who come here strictly to put down apple and offer no other valuable input to the community are trolls. plain and simple. we tend to tolerate them up to the point they get abusive. pez is getting close to that already.  

and pez, as moderater i *have to* read every one of your posts. and frankly it is tedious and boring to read your repititions of the same old sour note over and over in half a dozen threads.

perhaps i should have picked one of the other threads you have posted in to respond. like the one where you all but called the admiral an idiot. (the main reason for the warning about attacks)

vic - of course i was being sarcastic. i thought that was so obvious that it didn't even need a smilie.


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## mrfluffy (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by pezagent _
> *
> That's an opinion, not a fact. You'll get farther in life when you can learn to differentiate between the two. *


and you may get farther with a sense of humour. and about the productivity i've sat at the college computers (400Mhz 64MB RAM Win 98) and seen them crash just trying to open a word ducument between 5 and 10 times in an hour, i've never ever seen a mac crash that much even when i was using photoshop on my quadra and running filters that took 5 minutes to go through.


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## Tigger (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by mrfluffy _
> *
> and you may get farther with a sense of humour. and about the productivity i've sat at the college computers (400Mhz 64MB RAM Win 98) and seen them crash just trying to open a word ducument between 5 and 10 times in an hour, i've never ever seen a mac crash that much even when i was using photoshop on my quadra and running filters that took 5 minutes to go through. *


Please keep in mind that these PCs are probably really bad configured, and run hardware that is really crappy.
I have seen Macs in our local computer store that were so bad configured it was giving me the creeps.
And now if some Windows user is looking at these Macs, what does he think about Macs in general? The same as you about PCs...
It just depends on the point of view.


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## vic (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Tigger _
> *
> Please keep in mind that these PCs are probably really bad configured, and run hardware that is really crappy.
> I have seen Macs in our local computer store that were so bad configured it was giving me the creeps.
> ...



nope, it depends on the admins of these machines.


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## Tigger (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by vic _
> *
> 
> nope, it depends on the admins of these machines. *


Okay, your point.


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## edX (Aug 12, 2002)

the point is a valid one - that not every computer is properly set up and maintained. college campus computers are often the worst. store demos can be equally as bad. the thing is that thousands of users have access to them and some of them can screw things up pretty badly for the other users. judging any computer in any of these environments can be tricky.

a real apple store should be able to show a mac at its best.  most resellers put more effort into thier pc's and are lucky if anybody in the store knows how to force reboot a mac. 

so unless you have compared properly maintained computers, then you are getting less than the total picture. i think this even applies to 2 computers owned by the same person. the person is likely to know a bit more or less about how to properly set up and maintain one system or the other.


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## Jason (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by MDA _
> *
> 
> I'm sure it must be a very self satisfied feeling to believe you are above the OS wars and superior because of it. If however your a part of the 5% and dwindling market share Mac community it isn't that easy to ignore. If you watch department after department at your business be forced to adopt PC's over Mac's because of poor planning for Mac users it isn't that easy to ignore.
> ...



gee thank you for giving me some obvious information  

i dont mean to sound like an asshole or someone who is "above" all this, but IMHO windows and mac os have been floating towards each other, both copying each other etc getting more and more similar with each new OS

do i know that the market for macs is a dwindling one? yes it is... but does that make it an excuse to go around throwing insults at people who use a different OS? i guess thats up to you, i dont see the need

yes i know service bureaus use mac formatted files, but in all honesty with adobe's cross platform capabilties lessen that gap a bit... the only file format that i know of that isnt nicely cross platform, that i output in is quark. but even with quark files i have never had a problem going back and forth and opening on either machine. personally i use PDFs now as my final output because i use InDesign more often than not, and again pdf's are very much cross platforms, i have not had a problem in a long time outputting from either, but since ive used both i must be an idiot because i touched the devil's machine!

on the other hand, why is the mac community dwindling? most answers will be... well because bill gates is evil, he is building an evil empire, he is monopolizing blah blah

when the fact of the matter is, the apple OS can only be used on a computer from a specific manufacturer (apple) that is more expensive, so it doesnt leave very many options for the OS to spread, because in a time of a tightened economy and budget cuts in most corporations and educational facilities it is more beneficial for the pocketbook to buy pc's and if apple's os doesnt run on anything but their own equipment, and they cant sell their equipment at a cheaper rate, then that doesnt leave them in very good condition

i dont see a war here i see a general population OS, with special applications, and i see a market niche OS


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## vic (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by BuddahBobb _
> *
> 
> gee thank you for giving me some obvious information
> ...



Amen.


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## MDA (Aug 12, 2002)

Originally posted by BuddahBobb

"i dont mean to sound like an asshole or someone who is "above" all this, but IMHO windows and mac os have been floating towards each other, both copying each other etc getting more and more similar with each new OS"

It is true that Windows and the Mac OS have grown more similar but the remaining differences are what keep me using a Mac. 

"do i know that the market for macs is a dwindling one? yes it is... but does that make it an excuse to go around throwing insults at people who use a different OS? i guess thats up to you, i dont see the need"

I don't think any more insults have been thrown your way than have been thrown at the Mac users on this forum.



"yes i know service bureaus use mac formatted files, but in all honesty with adobe's cross platform capabilties lessen that gap a bit... the only file format that i know of that isnt nicely cross platform, that i output in is quark. but even with quark files i have never had a problem going back and forth and opening on either machine. personally i use PDFs now as my final output because i use InDesign more often than not, and again pdf's are very much cross platforms, i have not had a problem in a long time outputting from either, but since ive used both i must be an idiot because i touched the devil's machine!"

I think you miss the point a bit. It isn't that service bureaus so much use Mac formatted files as it is that PC files cause service bureaus far more problems than Mac files. Partly because of font issues and partly because PC's don't use ColorSync technology. One guy I talked to who ran a service bureau told me that they have 10 times the problem with PC files than they do with Mac files. At one time they charged PC users extra to work with their files. Of course to someone with your knowledge I'm sure this is all obvious information.

"on the other hand, why is the mac community dwindling? most answers will be... well because bill gates is evil, he is building an evil empire, he is monopolizing blah blah"

It's partly because of IT managers who simply can't deal with the fact that some people prefer Mac's. They feel that everyone has to be on the same platform, that being Windows.

"when the fact of the matter is, the apple OS can only be used on a computer from a specific manufacturer (apple) that is more expensive, so it doesnt leave very many options for the OS to spread, because in a time of a tightened economy and budget cuts in most corporations and educational facilities it is more beneficial for the pocketbook to buy pc's and if apple's os doesnt run on anything but their own equipment, and they cant sell their equipment at a cheaper rate, then that doesnt leave them in very good condition"

I'm willing to pay more to own a Mac. The fact that the OS and the hardware are assembled by them tends to make them be more reliable and last a little longer. Mac's also tend to actually cost less in the long run to support. If you don't believe me look it up.

MDA


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## Jason (Aug 12, 2002)

i am also willing to spend more on a mac, i have no problem there

but in corporations, and educational facilities they dont know the information needed to make a "sacrifice" of money for a more expensive machine

i apologise about the insults part, i just havent seen many pc users here, let alone making insults, i dont read too much 

as far as color profiles, *I* personally havent had a problem, and neither have i with fonts, i provide pc and mac version of fonts when i send files anywhere if fonts are needed with them... or since i generally output with pdf's i subset and embed

i think if apple built cheaper machines or offered their os to run on pc's their "problems" would be solved, but IMO i dont think they have a problem, they have performed well in the niche that they are in and i dont think it would be hugely beneficial for them to try and get out of that niche... it would be like a car company such as mercedes trying to oust toyota as the market leader in car sales, but trying to do it with more expensive cars... its hard to do plain and simple, you got to admit that


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## fab5freddy (Aug 16, 2002)

Just a little FYI for someone here who posted something about how printing houses only accept Mac formats or whatever...

All the new digital plates only accept PDF files, so it doesn't matter where that file comes from.

Houses may already accept PDF files of course, but any digital plate making equipment made today uses PDF as it's standard and won't accept anything else.

I just thought I'd put my 2¢ in... 

PAiD


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## uoba (Aug 16, 2002)

PDF is never a viable option as far as our print jobs are concerned... the turn around time if there are amendments dramatically increases. Plate making machines may require them, but this is assuming the job has been approved and ready for the press (save a wet-proof here or there )

(Oops, have I gone off-topic... sorry... ads, the other way, cool, yeah, whatever )


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## fab5freddy (Aug 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by uoba _
> *PDF is never a viable option as far as our print jobs are concerned... the turn around time if there are amendments dramatically increases. Plate making machines may require them, but this is assuming the job has been approved and ready for the press (save a wet-proof here or there )
> 
> (Oops, have I gone off-topic... sorry... ads, the other way, cool, yeah, whatever ) *



And, so what's your point? You (or your company) doesn't know how to adapt to new technology? I thought you were a Mac User?


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## uoba (Aug 16, 2002)

There's one thing my company adopting new technology, it's another thing getting the printers doing the same... and of those of us who know printers well... well, they'de still be using System 7 if they could )

There are still too many problems trying to turn around fast deadline when dealing with PDFs, unless of course your company can afford a full-time dedicated Mac Artworker... but we are not all in this position.

As for the PC-Mac debate in print design, I mirror MDA's statement... however the big crunch in all this is the fonts issue.

I spent 1 week trying to find the typeface of all typefaces on the PC, Akzidenz Grotesk (the origin of Helvetica and much nicer )... eventually I had to settle for a renamed version. Microsoft and Adobe are going some way to rectifying this type of problem with OpenType, but the foundries have to be willing to redo there type, which will take a long time.


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## fab5freddy (Aug 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by uoba _
> *There's one thing my company adopting new technology, it's another thing getting the printers doing the same... and of those of us who know printers well... well, they'de still be using System 7 if they could )
> 
> There are still too many problems trying to turn around fast deadline when dealing with PDFs, unless of course your company can afford a full-time dedicated Mac Artworker... but we are not all in this position.
> ...



Once again, I don't know what you're talking about. Making a PDF and sending it to the client is as easy as anything else. It's sure easier than collecting for output. PDF has been widely accepted as an exchange format for years now... I don't understand where you're coming from.

As far as your font woes... whatever... Berthold has its own type foundry where you can get Akzidenz for Mac or PC... it's part of Adobe's library as well. Using fonts on the PC is no different than Mac.

> one week looking for this? <


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## uoba (Aug 16, 2002)

> Making a PDF and sending it to a client is as easy as anything



...firstly, I'm not talking about the clients (obviously sending PDFs to a client is a daily occurence), I'm talking about the printers! You cannot ask a printer to amend a PDF as easily as a Quark or Illustrator file (just too many complications)...

2 of our printers just will not accept PDF files to work from, it costs them time to deal with them... again, if there are any amendments (and there always are)!

As for Akzidenz Grotesk, ah yes, that 'face is a beauty... by the way, I was talking many many years ago

Anyway, we've gone off topic with the pros and cons of PDF artwork. 

My stance with this topic: keep an eye on IBM


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## nimrod (Aug 16, 2002)

I come from the windows background.  I am so impressed with my Mac, and OS X.  I have gotten rid of all windows machines (except my wifes, and I am working on it).  

I work in a Mac client, Linux Server environment, and it is so nice.  Granted there are a ton of apps that only run on windows, but oh well!  The printer thing is a pain, in fact I am scouring the columns now looking for help for my printer and my Linksys wireless router!

Check out the new M$ licensing model, and then see if you still want to switch!


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## Tigger (Aug 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by fab5freddy _
> *
> 
> Once again, I don't know what you're talking about. Making a PDF and sending it to the client is as easy as anything else. It's sure easier than collecting for output. PDF has been widely accepted as an exchange format for years now... I don't understand where you're coming from.
> *


I know exactly what he is talking about. Yes PDF workflow is coming strong. But it is not nearly there where like to see it.
I had a hard time with one printer taking no PDF. Finally, I ended up sending him a Quark file, like I should have done in the first place.

If you only got printers around you that take PDFs and print them, then fine for you. But please don't try to make others look dumb cause they are not so lucky.


I called the Apple store today (Yes, I am 75% there buying a Mac, again).
Really funny: Here in Germany the voice from tape pronounces "Apple" like [apl] and "Mac" like [mak].


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## Tigger (Aug 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nimrod _
> *
> Check out the new M$ licensing model, and then see if you still want to switch! *


The thing about the Microsoft licensing model is ful of misunderstandings:
It is a OPTION to take the model there you pay every year and get every upgrade.
You can still buy your copy of XP version whatever and don't have to buy anything again, unless you want to upgrade.


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