# 10.5?



## irfaan (May 21, 2006)

Hi!  I was wondering if there has been any solid ideas on when the next verious of OSX might be released.  I know its always up for grabs, but if it might come out thie summer, i will probalby hold off buying a new mac untill that (and hopefully a few hardware upgrades) are release!

Feel free to add any comments you may have!

Thanks!


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## Lt Major Burns (May 21, 2006)

Jobs said "we're aiming to release it to coincide with the release of [Vista]"

which was christmas 2006, and probably still will be.

there will be a first look at WWDC at the beginning of august. more details then.  the only things we have to go on so far is the final release of Boot Camp will be part of it, and there are pretty solid rumours of an entirely new finder, which could possibly be based on the development of the Spotlight technology, ie a sort of iTunes-like finder.


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## Quicksilver (May 21, 2006)

I don't have any idea when it's coming out but i have an idea and hope that Apple makes a much more featured version of BootCamp as apart of the release. In particular i would be interested in a OS X booting machine and when loaded can fast user switch to my background loaded windows OS and back again. i recon it makes sence and feels as though windows is an attachment of the centralisation of the digital hub (the MAC).


.


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## sinclair_tm (May 21, 2006)

well, vista is now pushed back to sometime next year, so i hope jobs doesn't really wait till than.  i don't see vista coming out till late next year, at the earliest.  as far as the boot camp idea with fast user switching, that would be cool.  but i'd rather see, and would be willing to pay for it, the next version of vpc become integrated into the os, like classic is on ppc macs, when its installed.  that way i don't have to do any rebooting, switching to jump from gaming to surfing.  as far as finder changes, i have never seemed to see why everyone hates it so much.  i love the finder the way it is, and would totally hate it if it went to spotlight/itunes like navigating.  spotlight is one of the things that i wish i could get rid of.  i never use it, and it only gets in the way when i bump the right key stroke to launch it.  and on the extremely rare occasion that i can't find something, i go straight to the terminal because spotlight has never been able to bring up what i want.  i keep reading how ms and apple's oses of the future will be set up like that, and become very fearful, because then i'd go from knowing exactly where everything is on my computer to praying that the finder will be able to find what i'm looking for.  it would totally waste so much of my time sorting through the search results looking for what i wanted.  i just hope that instead of making it the norm, that it will be an option.


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## Mikuro (May 21, 2006)

I agree completely, Sinclair....except that I'm one of those who hates the Finder. It's not that I hate what it does, it's just that it has so many bugs and quirks and general backwards-ness. To this day, it still feels like a poorly ported OS 9 program  which is exactly what it is. I really miss the OS 9 Finder. If you look at any of the features the two share, OS 9 will almost always have the better implementation. (And I'm still waiting for popup folders, darnit!)

So I hate the OS X Finder, but if Apple changed the fundamentals of it, I'd probably have a fit. Unless they made it work reeaaaally well, of course, but I can't imagine anything based on Spotlight working really well on such a scale.

I'm very optimistic, though. I don't think Apple will, or even COULD, ditch the hierarchical filing system. I think anything they do will be an evolutionary advancement of what is already there, an addition, or simple polish. There's a lot of room for all those things.


Anyway, as far the release date, I think Steve Jobs said last year that it would be out in 2006. If they were going to release it in the summer, I think they probably would have previewed it at their last big event. I think Burns is right: We'll see more at WWDC in August, and it will probably be released late 2006 or early 2007.


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## adambyte (May 21, 2006)

... Oops. Sorry. Wrong thread. I thought this was about that horrible NBC made-for-TV-movie that features an impossibly-powerful earthquake.

Carry on.


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## fryke (May 22, 2006)

Definite information is that developers will get a peek at Leopard (10.5) in August at WWDC. Prior to announcing the developer version for WWDC, Apple said _two_ things:

1) We want to have Leopard available around the time Vista ships.
2) End of 2006/early 2007.

Vista will have several launch dates. Companies will have access to Vista a little earlier according to the various reports about Vista's release.

I currently expect Apple to release Leopard at MWSF '07, along with iLife '07 and iWork '07.


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## Lt Major Burns (May 22, 2006)

but they've never released OS software at a show, they usually like to release it about a month before a show so that they can gloat over it's success.

i expect november, or maybe even october, to get the holiday sales that vista will miss.  which, if you remember caused a heck of a storm when microsoft dropped the ball there.

also gives enough time for them to really gloat at macworld


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## fryke (May 22, 2006)

hm... First developer preview in August, release in October? I don't see that just yet...


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## irfaan (May 22, 2006)

Thanks to all those that posted ideas.  I guess I'll go for a new imac in the next few weeks, although I will try to hold off for as long as I can, just in case they have some smaller upgrades before than.  I'm also hoping that I can wait it out till July-ish, so that I can get a educational promo! 

Antoerh question for 10.5, is 128 MB VRAM going to be enough.  The 17in imac doesnt' let you upgrade it!


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## fryke (May 22, 2006)

As has been said: There hasn't been a developer version yet, so we have no idea about its new features and requirements, really.


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## Ishcabittle (May 22, 2006)

sinclair_tm said:
			
		

> but i'd rather see, and would be willing to pay for it, the next version of vpc become integrated into the os, like classic is on ppc macs, when its installed.  that way i don't have to do any rebooting, switching to jump from gaming to surfing.



Have you heard of Parallels?  It's a virtualization app that will run XP in a window on your OS X desktop.  It has that same feel of "XP in a window" that VPC does, but since it doesn't need to translate Intel instructions into PPC instructions it really does fly.  Another plus is the zero performance hit to OS X, thanks to the Core Duo.

Even though this is a third party solution right now, I wouldn't be terribly suprised if Apple implemented something like this in Leopard.


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## Quicksilver (May 22, 2006)

Ishcabittle said:
			
		

> Even though this is a third party solution right now, I wouldn't be terribly suprised if Apple implemented something like this in Leopard.




Yes, I think just like iTunes was simply a basic cd playing app in OS X Public Beta, BootCamp will grow to be somthing amazing mabey a combination of fast user switching and VPC styled operability will be the big thing.


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## Mikuro (May 23, 2006)

Quicksilver said:
			
		

> Yes, I think just like iTunes was simply a basic cd playing app in OS X Public Beta, BootCamp will grow to be somthing amazing mabey a combination of fast user switching and VPC styled operability will be the big thing.


I also think that's likely. Keep in mind that Intel's upcoming chips will have virtualization technology to allow for more than one OS to run at a time. I'm not sure exactly how this works, but I've been hearing about it for years. I'm guessing BootCamp will make use of this when it's available. I don't think the current Core Duos have it, but I'm pretty sure the Merom and Conroe will (one of those will almost surely be in the Power Mac replacement).


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## fryke (May 23, 2006)

iTunes was, in my opinion, _not_ part of Mac OS X Public Beta. There was the "Music Player" (which I still want back!!!). It was able to play MP3s and, IIRC, CDs, too. (So basically it probably simply was another front-end to QuickTime...) But that's not really the subject. I *think* to remember Apple saying BootCamp was only a beta and that Leopard would feature the full version, which would be virtualisation, i.e. like Parallels, but probably way better. Or at least as good. Wow. Having just ordered the MacBook, I'm suddenly also in the situation that I'll be able to run Windows natively on a Mac. Guess I simply won't.


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## sinclair_tm (May 23, 2006)

Ishcabittle said:
			
		

> Have you heard of Parallels?  It's a virtualization app that will run XP in a window on your OS X desktop.  It has that same feel of "XP in a window" that VPC does...



yes, i know about parallels, and if i had an intel mac, i'd be more likly to use it than boot camp, but i don't want win xp in a window.  like i said, i want xp on intel macs like 9.2.2(classic) on ppc macs, or even x11 on all macs(i love x11 mac apps, the gimp, open office, and the like.  i use them all the time.).  this way i can put the apps anywhere i want, not on a seperate drive partition, or in a container file.  just select the 'win32' pref pane to the "windows" folder installed on my mac, and when i double click on a windows app, it lauches xp in the background, and then lauches the app.  there can even be an win icon in the dock, next to the finder icon, that when you click on it, it gives the start menu.


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## lbj (May 23, 2006)

sinclair_tm said:
			
		

> . . .  there can even be an win icon in the dock, next to the finder icon, that when you click on it, it gives the start menu.



I'm feeling ill.


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## whitesaint (May 24, 2006)

-10.5 coming out in late 2006-early 2007
-will not come with windows
-will be optimized for intel
-updates to existing programs and new programs
-windows xp will not be in the dock or virtualized
-taking more advantage of core image, duo
-more things to make the developers even happier
-128MB graphics card will be more than enough to run leopard
-more personality, elegance, attractiveness, advanced
-most important of all, new mixtures of existent or new technologies to do new things


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## Mikuro (May 24, 2006)

sinclair_tm said:
			
		

> i want xp on intel macs like 9.2.2(classic) on ppc macs, or even x11 on all macs(i love x11 mac apps, the gimp, open office, and the like.  i use them all the time.).  this way i can put the apps anywhere i want, not on a seperate drive partition, or in a container file.


I don't think Windows support à la Classic is _too_ far-fetched, but I think you'll need a separate partition/image anyway. Putting Windows on the same partition as OS X would not only be difficult, but also dangerous. I don't want Windows viruses hosing my Mac data! As far as this goes, I think VPC's method is right on; let me share specific folders/volumes, but other than that, Windows shouldn't know anything about my Mac's data.

I'm also not sure it would be easy to have Classic-like support without a lot of help from Microsoft. Remember that even OS 9 needed a lot of tweaks and additions to get it to work as Classic. These were all perfectly doable since Apple was in control of everything, but I wonder how much Apple could technically/legally do with Windows. Apple will probably want to retain as much control of this as possible. The simpler their implementation is, the more resistant it will be to Microsoft's whim.

And Apple probably won't want their Windows support to be TOO good, anyway. They'll want Windows apps to be distinctly second-class citizens (or perhaps third, fourth or fifth, depending on how you look at the current situation with Carbon, Classic and X11 ).


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## fryke (May 24, 2006)

Hasn't this already been done with WINE on linux? So no, it doesn't need much support from Microsoft imho.


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## Mikuro (May 24, 2006)

fryke said:
			
		

> Hasn't this already been done with WINE on linux? So no, it doesn't need much support from Microsoft imho.


I forgot all about Wine. I've never used it myself. Is its compatibility good enough?

And has anyone tried the OS X version, Darwine, on an Intel Mac?

If Apple could manage something like Wine (maybe even based on Wine) that really worked well, that would be awesome. There'd be no need to buy and install Windows at all, so it would actually be a big step above Classic. It would probably also seriously tick off MS, though. If Apple sticks with BootCamp or uses some kind of virtualization, then they'd be Microsoft's bestest friend, since they'd be effectively selling copies of Windows. But Wine aims to replace Windows more than anything else!


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## sinclair_tm (May 24, 2006)

apple is more likely to go with bootcamp/vpc way right now with ms, to make ms happy, and to keep win support low.  but i see in the future-after the mac hardware has a much, much bigger share of the market, and apple has some better office like apps ready-apple going to a wine like thing just to spite ms, because it wouldn't hurt apple to lose macdu support at that point.


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## texanpenguin (May 25, 2006)

Mikuro said:
			
		

> I forgot all about Wine. I've never used it myself. Is its compatibility good enough?
> 
> And has anyone tried the OS X version, Darwine, on an Intel Mac?
> 
> If Apple could manage something like Wine (maybe even based on Wine) that really worked well, that would be awesome. There'd be no need to buy and install Windows at all, so it would actually be a big step above Classic. It would probably also seriously tick off MS, though. If Apple sticks with BootCamp or uses some kind of virtualization, then they'd be Microsoft's bestest friend, since they'd be effectively selling copies of Windows. But Wine aims to replace Windows more than anything else!




http://wiki.osx86project.org/wiki/index.php/Darwine_Apps

It's working, but it's a bit of a challenge in some cases


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## Krevinek (May 26, 2006)

whitesaint said:
			
		

> -10.5 coming out in late 2006-early 2007
> -will not come with windows
> -will be optimized for intel
> -updates to existing programs and new programs
> ...



OS X doesn't neet to take more advantage of the Core Duo. They rewrote their vector acceleration routines to use SSE, so that work is already done. The only 'feature' they have yet to exploit is virtualization. And I would wager that a lot of the intel optimization took place along-side the PPC optimization over the past 4-5 years.

They aren't likely to do more things to make the Devs even happier either. They said to devs that 10.4 was going to stabilize the API quite a bit more, so that devs could be free to write against 10.4 and not worry about 10.5 making their work redundant, or break their apps. Now... if these changes are in the dev tools themselves, great, bring em on.


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