# Why did Apple include IE5 with Panther?



## uoba (Nov 17, 2003)

IE5 with Panther? Why would you put a now defunct browser, officially no longer developed? ...that is 2-3 years out of date with its capabilities.

Was it because of an existing agreement with M¢? Was it fear of anti-trust   ? Perhaps they didn't want to scare OS9/legacy IE5 users?

My reasons for asking... it's becoming increasing frustrating trying to support an old browser that's had its day (especially since Safari's CSS support is so good.)


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## ScottW (Nov 17, 2003)

Well, I have one bank site I have to use IE5 for. Other than that, I don't use it. I have been thinking of switching banks cause on one of my accounts which is at Bank of America they have a awesome online bank interface.

My other bank is stuck in 1996 I think.


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## ora (Nov 17, 2003)

Depressingly I still need ie for some sites, especially university webmail, is a Microsoft Exchange sever and only seem's to recognise ie properly (whatever i set the debug/user agent to). So, for me, it's kinda useful to have it included. It may be old and bloated but so much on the web seems old and windoze based that ie still has some use. Better than having to download it over my 56k.
On the other hand, Safari rocks, and i will delete ie very hapilly once safari works across the board.

ora


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## jhawk28 (Nov 17, 2003)

I think that it is just added for comparison. To show just how slllllooooooooooooooooooowwwwwwwwww IE is.


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## Decado (Nov 17, 2003)

To many banks and other boring pages still need IE. if they didnt include it people would start saying that you cant use those pages with a macintosh.


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## uoba (Nov 17, 2003)

My banking experience is that they don't even cater for IE for Mac! The only reason they do so is because for so long, people complained (and it was the only decent browsers for the Mac 2-3years ago).


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## TommyWillB (Nov 17, 2003)

The fact is most sites say they are "best viewed with IE"... They don't specify WinDoze or Mac IE, so they are obligated to do some testing on IE Mac....

By taking IE away all of those sites would simply stop doing ANY Mac testing vs. use Safari... 

Besides many of the sites supporting IE Mac do thier testing under OS 9 using old machines... They are not springing for new G5's.


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## mindbend (Nov 17, 2003)

But the original question was why was IE included? Not why might a few people need IE on the Mac.

When I ran the Installer and saw IE, I was very surprised. Given that the Microsoft agreement is overwith and I don't know of any other deals or obligations, I found it odd. Not to mention the superior Safari, you'd think Apple would be inclined to try and weed out IE altogether. After all, it's only a free download away from anyone who really needs it.

So, I agree with uaoba's query, what the heck is IE doing in the installer (rhetorical)? My guess is that it's a very small gesture which says, "We're not quite ready to draw the line in the sand yet. We need another few months."


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## evildan (Nov 17, 2003)

I don't blame them for including IE... that way you can test to make sure the trash can works. What else are you going to toss after a clean install?


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## symphonix (Nov 17, 2003)

Plus, I think it helps Windows Switchers to make the decision. You know the ones "Yeah, but you can't run Internet Explorer on a Mac". This way, Apple proves them wrong, then proves them wronger. ;-)


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## pds (Nov 17, 2003)

lol!


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## spitty27 (Nov 17, 2003)

ie is better than safari...
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in absolutely no ways.


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## Randman (Nov 18, 2003)

Yeah, but it's good that Apple includes it (for some sites as well as those who need to migrate bookmarks over when switching) rather than forcing one to go look for it, if needed, and to have to click on the M$ site. Saves an evil cookie from entering your system. Besides, there's few things are fun as using IE hardcore for a day or two, then fixing permissions and watching the screen goes crazy for a good while.


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## Zammy-Sam (Nov 18, 2003)

As long as I can delete it any time, I don't feel bothered about Apple including IE. To be honest: even changed my safari icon to IEs. Don't know why, but switching through the programms makes me hardly find the default safari icon. Doesn't happen with IEs "e".


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## Cat (Nov 18, 2003)

MicroSoft annouced some time ago that it would stop the stand alone development (and hence download) of IE ... I don't know, but if Apple didn't bundle it with Panther, where would you get it? Has M$ pulled it yet as stand-alone download? Do magazines still distribute it with their "free" CD's?


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## Arden (Nov 19, 2003)

You can still download IE.  But nobody bothers putting it on a disc anymore.

As long as IE isn't the _default_ browser, what's the hassle?  If you never launch it, what's the problem?  Surely you aren't so lacking in hard drive space that you need an extra 20 MB or whatever it is.


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## Randman (Nov 19, 2003)

For once, I'm glad to have IE. After installing Panther last night, my Safari was DOA. After reading on it here, looks as if I'll have to reinstall Safari from the install disx. Annoying.


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## evildan (Nov 19, 2003)

I too had to resort to IE... not 'cause I wanted, but because Safari died on me several times. Safari is back now, I ended up creating a new user and all my iApps came back to life!


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## toast (Nov 19, 2003)

Why NOT include IE ? Some people like it, its interface especially. I'd like to see Apple provide Mozilla/Thunderbird and Netscape 7 troo, but the average user'd get lost.


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## uoba (Nov 19, 2003)

IE has been updated for what, 2-3 years? IE5 is fast looking old with its CSS support etc.

As for what's wrong with including it... well, it means people will use it because, it's called Internet Explorer, and that's safe right? And, developers (PC web developers) will only support IE5 for Mac (at a push) because it's the only one they are aware... hence, serious sites not working in Apple's own browser.

I don't see much good coming from making a browser available as if there's nothing wrong (hell, this thing is never going to be developed/improved... it's officially dead!!)

It's bad enough expecting M¢ to update IE for PC (which isn't going to happen anymore due to the their move into commercial MSN Explorer land).


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## fryke (Nov 19, 2003)

I would _like_ to see Apple include a choice of web browsers and E-Mail clients with Mac OS X. The installation process could include screens for it, asking you: "Which web browser do you want to use per default?" A list of three or four for each web and mail would be enough. A short description of each application could also be included. Of course, Safari and Mail.app would be preselected. (This would also show Microsoft how it could be done...)

Alas, I don't see Apple doing that. They've put the choice for webbrowsing into Safari and the choice for the default mail handler into Mail.app. I think that's a bad move. Users EXPECT to find these choices in System Preferences - and that's where it belongs. It's quite Microsoftish, in a way, how Panther handles this.

About IE 5 inclusion in Panther: I'd expect it to vanish from Mac OS X in the next version. There's no need to rush things like that. The default browser is Safari, that should be enough.


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## Urbansory (Nov 19, 2003)

IE is still a must have, Safari still isn't at its full potential. Safari and flash still doesn't work together, not it's the shared objects, which worked fine in Jaguar.


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## Ripcord (Nov 19, 2003)

Yeah, IE for compatibility reasons.  What I don't understand is why they don't also include Mozilla or Netscape...  I guess perhaps just for disk space reasons.

Have we heard anything on a Safari update for non-Panther versions of the OS?  The fact that they haven't released one yet, or an updated X11, bothers me a bit.  I hated the way they seemed to just abandon 10.1 shortly after the Jag release, I'm sure eventually it's going to really start rubbing the wrong way against users and corporations...


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## Ripcord (Nov 19, 2003)

Urbansory said:
			
		

> IE is still a must have, Safari still isn't at its full potential. Safari and flash still doesn't work together, not it's the shared objects, which worked fine in Jaguar.



In what cases?  I haven't noticed any problems...  Other embedded stuff, sure, but flash has been great for me.


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## Urbansory (Nov 19, 2003)

Well I don't like to post projects that are in progress, so you will have to use the old (a bit buggy/ half ass interface design) mixer.  

http://www.urbansory.com/mixer/

Make a mix, save it, reload, it will not save in Safari, but it will in IE.

Quick walk through.
1.Select bandwidth
2.Select a slot, then click new.
3. Click Import
4. Selec your sounds then hit the "+" to add to the library.
5.Press save.

Actually you can do just the first 2 steps then click save, that will save the date in the slots view for the selected slot, in Safari under 10.3, it always says empty. The new mixer is about 80%, killer interface, tons of new coding to fix bugs and added features.Blah, blah...


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## callieX (Nov 20, 2003)

I need it to get my work webmail.  Our mail is microsoft based and the webmail does not work with Safari.  Plus Panther has a Microsoft exchange option with mail but it does not seem to work.

calliex


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## georgelien (Nov 20, 2003)

Unfortunately, most websites only support Microsoft Internet Explorer.

So I use Safari most of the time, but use IE when I encounter websites only made for IE.


Best Regards,
George Lien


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## Arden (Nov 21, 2003)

Well, just for grins, I just now accessed my checking account online (Washington Mutual, by the way, in case anybody wants to switchcan't beat free checking and online banking accessible in Safari!), and it worked perfectly.  Which goes to show, well, I'm not sure, but if anybody wants to switch banks...


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## mr. k (Nov 21, 2003)

My bank works too!  I don't even keep a log of all the checks I write...  It's just one click away.


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## TommyWillB (Nov 22, 2003)

Urbansory said:
			
		

> Well I don't like to post projects that are in progress, so you will have to use the old (a bit buggy/ half ass interface design) mixer.
> 
> http://www.urbansory.com/mixer/...


It seems to work fine on Mozilla Firebird. 

Overall it is a really amazing interface for a Web browser... any Web browser.


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## Urbansory (Nov 22, 2003)

I assume it didn't work for you in Safari either?

The mixer interface? Well thanks, I guess the new one is so much better that it just makes the old one look bad to me.


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## TommyWillB (Nov 22, 2003)

In Safari all of the UI things seem to work, but no sound plays...


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## Giaguara (Nov 22, 2003)

... no background musics etc, thus many sites seem better than they are 

I must be lucky as the online banking I've needed to do has worked in Safari. But I'm not otherwise happy with the bank, so I won't mind changing the bank only because one bank would force me to use IE


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## ocelot (Nov 22, 2003)

uoba said:
			
		

> IE5 with Panther? Why would you put a now defunct browser, officially no longer developed? ...that is 2-3 years out of date with its capabilities.
> 
> Was it because of an existing agreement with M¢? Was it fear of anti-trust   ? Perhaps they didn't want to scare OS9/legacy IE5 users?
> 
> My reasons for asking... it's becoming increasing frustrating trying to support an old browser that's had its day (especially since Safari's CSS support is so good.)



Good question. Maybe Apple has some agreement with MS. Unlike the above posts, I haven't found a site (knocking on wood) that I need to use IE for but I keep it around just in case. -john.


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## TommyWillB (Nov 23, 2003)

I'm glad you can all live without IE.

Congratulations!

But this thread it getting very tiriing... Unsubscribing now...


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## Urbansory (Nov 24, 2003)

Did you click the main play button? The library preview is the bottom right play button, the main play button is on the left above the timeline. But I guess he unsubscribed already.


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## cying (Nov 29, 2003)

I wonder if anyone else has found this problem and discovered a fix. When I upgraded to Panther, Safari will not load any webpage. It just hangs with a blank page. Doesn't even display the error message when the network is down. (Page not found). On the same iMac (graphite, 1GB ram) IE5 works just fine. Connection is Airport to Airport Extreme to DSL.

I have not upgraded to Panther on my other machines until I know how to fix this problem.

Charles


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## fryke (Nov 30, 2003)

Look in 'System & Software' and/or use search. There are threads about Panther/Safari problems. And no: Haven't seen this problem.


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