# PANTHER economics



## waiting_for_OSX (Nov 2, 2003)

Panther is where OS X should have been two years ago.

Let's calculate a sum. I've given Apple $129 for 10.1, $129 for 10.2 and, $129 for 10.3. I've now paid a total of $387 for the same piece of software that my friend, who bought his first mac yesterday, acquired for only $129. I feel like I've been robbed. 

I purchased "Windows XP Pro" for $200, which, when compared with OS X, is a much better value for the money. Applications are less likely to crash on XP and there are many more available.

No wonder OS X doesn't provide a calculator program in utilities. If you actually did the math, you would be livid. 

To add insult to injury, Panther still has UI bugs that have existed since 10.1. They are too numerous to list here.

Applications are another story. Safari still has significant rendering errors and problems. DVD-player looks better, but the controls are still buggy. QuickTime continues to harass us to pay for the pro version. IChat now makes it difficult to understand that you don't need to pay Apple for a dot-mac account in order to use it. Apple also wants you to buy from their ITunes music store. OS X is beginning to feel like ad-ware or spy-ware.

The prior versions of OS X were too buggy for a user to rely upon so they were just an expensive toy to play with. Those of us who have been buying from the beginning have had to endure these long years waiting for, and paying for, Apple to get its act together. The only reason I purchased OS X at the time of the initial release was because I thought wouldn't have to pay for bug fixes and trivial features in the future, which is exactly what 10.2 and 10.3 are: additions to the OS that should have been included in 10.0.

This is the end of the line for you Apple, once again you're a day late and a dollar short. My g4 powerMac is now my g4 paper-weight.


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## voice- (Nov 2, 2003)

I'll give you the pricing, Safari and QuickTime issues, but I'll have to argue about some other stuff.

1. Applications>Calculator
I don't know why you wanted it in Utilities, but you can create a shortcut or just drag it there if you'd like...

2. iChat had no problems whatsoever understanding I don't want .Mac. I've told this Mac twice that I don't want it since I installed Panther, and it shuts up about it.

3. iTunes Music Store hasn't bugged me to pay for music at all, in fact I had to go looking just to see the iTMS.

4. XP? Pft! I bought a new Mac because I had a Mac and a PC running OS X and XP respectively, and I compared the 2. Apps are not less likely to crash, in fact that's one of the things apps do best in XP...(or rather, they hang, and I have to force quit them)


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## applewhore (Nov 2, 2003)

waiting_for_OSX said:
			
		

> Panther is where OS X should have been two years ago.
> 
> Let's calculate a sum. I've given Apple $129 for 10.1, $129 for 10.2 and, $129 for 10.3. I've now paid a total of $387 for the same piece of software that my friend, who bought his first mac yesterday, acquired for only $129. I feel like I've been robbed.
> 
> ...




As a Windows user of 16 years (and every version during that time) I'm assuming that you've posted this in jest...

The very thought of ever going back to the OS that caused me untold data loss and downtime leaves me cold.

Apple may not be perfect in your eyes, but I certainly haven't found anything better - and I look forward to opening up my computer every day and getting on with some work (I could NEVER say that before!)

Sorry you feel so bitter, but I'm glad you got such a good deal on XP (Amazon are selling it for the discounted rate of US$269!)

I have also paid for each upgrade of OS X - and I don't regret a penny of it...


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## powermac (Nov 2, 2003)

Wow, the  pricing aspect is the only argument I agree with. To say XP is more stable is an obvious untrue statement, clearly just to flame on a Mac board. Any OS update is a bug fix, so get real. If you choose to use a PC, then stick with it. As far as relying on, I been using MAC for over 10 years, I get work and play done. Sorry to hear your feelings about Apple and Macintosh products. Do yourself and everyone else a favor, just use Windows, after all it is like holding the big crayon in Kindergarten, which sounds like your level computer knowledge.


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## hulkaros (Nov 2, 2003)

If you, Mr."waiting_for_OSX" aren't trolling you certainly have strange things going on inside your computing life... Get them straight! 

If straight for you is Windows XP or Windows in general just go ahead and use them ASAP and let us be on our expensive, closed minded, proprietary, etc.-etc. world of Apple!


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## tsizKEIK (Nov 2, 2003)

ive paid for jaguar and panther and dont regret any euro/dollar of it 

of course if ur just a cheap ass and u dont respect the work bein done for each upgrade u could just wait for 10.5 and pay $129 only once


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## lilbandit (Nov 2, 2003)

em ok, so if I had waited I could have gotten XP for $269 instead of buying all that unnecessary stuff that came beforehand...my pc would have run on what exactly? Petrol?


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## mr. k (Nov 2, 2003)

Please, just don't bug us.  is Apple forcing you to pay for the upgrades somehow?  Or did you just make bad decisions and buy upgrades before you saw what they included and decided if you really needed them?  And why pick this thread to come and complain - try windows.com or something, I think they will seem more empathetic.


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## Captain Code (Nov 2, 2003)

Closed for trolling.


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## Giaguara (Nov 2, 2003)

This thread stays closed.

Waiting for os x, you will get no more warnings here. You will get pure action next time. Familiarize yourself with the rul3z. Flaming, trolling, linking and mentioning specifix p2p programs, or links to not kid suitable sites, or being against anyone personally are not very liked features here.


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## bobw (Nov 3, 2003)

*waiting_for_OSX* shouldn't have gotten any warning for this post, and it shouldn't have been closed for trolling. He made one post, stating his opinion, and hasn't come back arguring with anyone else's posts.

This Forum is Apple News, Rumors & *Discussion*

The person was discussing his opinion on an Apple product.

We may not like his opinion, but he does have a right to express it.

Instead of closing the thread, or coming back with a post telling him not to bug us, just leave positive feedback, and your expierences with the OS.

Such as XP for $200.00, OS X for $129.00. No security issues with OS X. MS Systems have patches almost weekly for security issues.

If he has crashes with OS X,, ask what crashes and try to help.

No reason to close this thread.


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## pds (Nov 3, 2003)

Hurray for the super-moderator!
We do get a bit short of fuse sometimes. 

I love OSX so much more than windows, because windows won't run on my beautiful iBook, so there's no question about it's cost.

(btw bobw -of all your recent visages, I like this one the best.)


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## ~~NeYo~~ (Nov 3, 2003)

LOL! Interesting to see the moderator brotherhood!  ... heh. 

I agree with some comments, Quicktime Pro upgrade can be quite annoying really, but no more annoying that say the advert stuck to MSN buddylists...

Pricing? Well we all know that all Mac OS X releases are touted as new OS's. People tend to confuse them for upgrades because they look very alike in their features... Sure enough, how much is a Windows XP upgrade (Home or Pro)? 
As for stabilty, I can't EVER understand someone biased to windows coming out with a statement like that. How can an operating system, trying to support  a million components (?), in totally random configs, be more stable than one of an enclosed environment. There is no logic to I can see... 

But hey, if you prefer Windows, so be it. Personally I don't, it feels very old fashioned to me, after using OS X for the last year. But maybe I am just taken in by looks? - I sure don't envy doing all that reading (even with Cleartype enabled) on a Windows machine - Its one thing I always notice on windows, (when I am away from my Mac) the text is HORRIBLE... eww

But hey, Like Big Bad Bob  ::ha:: said, this forum is about Discussion, so please come back, and may the 'discussion' begin!


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## toast (Nov 3, 2003)

"Safari still has significant rendering errors and problems."
>> 1) Prove this.
>> 2) Find a better browser. Please spare me some good laugh by not answering "MSIE".

"IChat now makes it difficult to understand that you don't need to pay Apple for a dot-mac account in order to use it."
>> Strangely enough, iChat has never asked me anything about dotMac. Are you sure you are talking of the right program ? Is it an Apple computer you are using ?

"Apple also wants you to buy from their ITunes music store."
>> So ? Isn't it natural ? Is Apple harrassing us for this ? No. At least, not me (living over the big pond).

"X is beginning to feel like ad-ware or spy-ware."
>> Evidence ?

"The prior versions of OS X were too buggy for a user to rely upon so they were just an expensive toy to play with."
>> Proof ? Examples ? My own experience says the opposite. Waiting for arguments, as usual.

As for the price problem, if you knew how to use your mind as well as your calculator, you'd understand Apple relies so much on its user base that free upgrades would have killed the company long ago.


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## ElDiabloConCaca (Nov 3, 2003)

waiting_for_OSX said:
			
		

> Let's calculate a sum. I've given Apple $129 for 10.1, $129 for 10.2 and, $129 for 10.3. I've now paid a total of $387 for the same piece of software that my friend, who bought his first mac yesterday, acquired for only $129. I feel like I've been robbed.



You've not been using OS X for three years longer than your friend.  That's how pricing goes.

You say you purchased Windows 2000 for $200, but if you were as adamant about upgrading your PC software as you are about upgrading the software for your Mac, since you ARE using an OS that's only been around for two weeks, then you'd be using Windows XP, which would set you back another $200, for a grand total of $400 of Windows OSs.  That's more than you've paid for THREE Macintosh OSs.  OS X 10.2 is just fine -- no pressing need to upgrae to 10.3, as some people would say about Windows 2000 and not upgrading to XP.


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## fryke (Nov 3, 2003)

Also, if you don't like Mac OS X, just stop buying it. But oh, I see. You _do_ like Panther. Well, then enjoy it. Btw.: You can avoid the upgrade prices by also upgrading to new Macs that come with the new versions for free.


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## Ripcord (Nov 3, 2003)

mr. K said:
			
		

> Please, just don't bug us.  is Apple forcing you to pay for the upgrades somehow?



In a way I believe they are.

I don't think their methods are comparable to Microsoft's, but I can still complain.

10.1 is, at this point, essentially unsupported software.  Quite a few new applications (including most from Apple) will not run on it.  Bugfixes and new improvements are no longer being made for it.  Apple's answer to its technical support customers is, essentially, upgrade.

I've heard arguments that Apple's policy of not continuing to update the software shouldn't affect customers.  Photoshop 6 will run just as well on 10.1 as it did two years ago.  That will never change.  Only if I have new needs (upgrade to Photoshop 8, for example) would I need to update my OS, and since my needs change, why is it unreasonable for them to expect me to pay money for something new?

...Except the security bugs publicized last week, for example, WILL affect me, as a 10.1 user.  Apple's support policy means that to rid myself of this vulnerability, I have to upgrade to 10.2 or 10.3.

It's unreasonable to expect Apple to continue to support a large number of different code bases - they CAN'T support OS 8, 9, 10.0, 10.1, 10.2, AND 10.3.  It's not economically viable.  But 10.1's only _two years old_, for cripe's sake. It wasn't even 2 years old when support for it essentially went away.  When I buy a piece of software, I believe it's reasonable to expect that expect that it will be maintained for a reasonable amount of time.  Look, even Microsoft has no plans to stop maintaining Windows 2000, which is 4 years old (released end of 99).  Even NT4 (1996) was really just killed off this year.

No, 10.2 and 10.3 were not simply maintenance updates.  But since they were/are the only way to get maintainance for a product that I own and expect to be supported, I think it's unreasonable for Apple to expect users to pay full price for the new software.  If 10.1 was still supported and maintained, it would be a different story.

Rip


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## mindbend (Nov 3, 2003)

I am continually amazed at the whining and cheapness of a certain portion of the Mac crowd. I hate to be a jerk, I really do, but what the heck are these people doing with their Macs that they even blink over $129 upgrade fees?

I run a business with my Mac(s). Because of OS X and its efficiencies, $129 is completely fair, if not a total bargain. It's a small cost of doing business. OS X is a tool. If I were a carpenter, I'd sharpen my blades once a year or more and not worry so much about the cost. In the interim I'm using my tool, err, that sounded weird...I'm using OS X to make money. 

For me, the economics of Panther are very easy to swallow.

--------

As for the performance of OS X on G4 class machines, I completely agree that it woefully underperforms (at least until Panther on DP G4s-all machines short of that are not tolerable IMHP). But, nobody forced me to adopt OS X and pay continual upgrade fees. If I wasn't happy with performance, I could easily switch to Windows (which I damn near did. Thank God for the G5 and Panther, otherwise I'd be outta here.)


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## steven_lufc (Nov 3, 2003)

waiting_for_OSX wrote:

This is the end of the line for you Apple, once again you're a day late and a dollar short. My g4 powerMac is now my g4 paper-weight.

Don't want it?? I'll have it   How much is a paper-weight? $2

beats my G3 iMac 'paper-weight'.....


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## mr. k (Nov 3, 2003)

Again, if you don't believe it's acceptable for apple to revamp their operating system yearly, do something about it.  Arguing on a message board won't convince apple to change their way's, the least you can do is just refuse to upgrade your system for $130 per year.  Write apple a letter, organize a protest, *do* something.
I plan to go out and (convince my mom to) buy panther asap...


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## Arden (Nov 4, 2003)

I think it's ridiculous that Microsoft isn't expecting to release a new operating system for at least 3 more years.  I mean, what are they, lazy?  Apple has provided us with major upgrades every year since OS X's release and, while you could argue that Panther is what Puma should have been, it is still a very new OS compared to any other and it shouldn't be expected to be perfect immediately.

Why should Apple be compared to Microsoft in this?  Why not compare Microsoft to Apple?  They release OS updates very irregularly at best and charge at least $200 for the Home (read: crippled) version.  Apple releases updates yearly to improve or introduce major and minor features that are lacking in the old version, and charges $200... for the 5-pack!  I don't see Microsoft offering any deals on multiple copies of Windows.


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## Wickedkitten (Nov 4, 2003)

fryke said:
			
		

> Also, if you don't like Mac OS X, just stop buying it. But oh, I see. You _do_ like Panther. Well, then enjoy it. Btw.: You can avoid the upgrade prices by also upgrading to new Macs that come with the new versions for free.



would it not just be cheaper buying the OS instead of getting a whole new mac?


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## toast (Nov 4, 2003)

It seems Waiting-For-OSX is gone. Anyway, he cannot back up (as I asked) his post's protests. This thread would've gone nowhere.


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