# I bought my first PC



## solrac (Aug 29, 2002)

I've had my PowerBook Titanium 400 laptop for over a year now, and it was time for a desktop system. Why? Because the PowerBook is just too slow. With 1 GB of RAM, it now runs a lot better, but certain tasks just take too long. The Get Info window in Jaguar takes 4 seconds to pop up. Save for web in Photoshop takes 4 seconds to pop up. Lots of windows take like 4 seconds to pop up. The video card cannot be upgraded. Quartz Extreme cannot be enjoyed.

A mac desktop was not an option. (I'm broke here, folks!)

So, I borrowed $600 from a friend and built a PC. It's a 1.8 Ghz Celeron, 640 MB RAM, 100 GB Hard Drive w/ 8 MB buffer, CD-ROM, Network Card, GeForce 4 Ti 4200 Video Card, and a used flat panel display... I did get some discounts from a friend who works at a computer store.

Here are my comments between my mac and the PC.

Ways PC is BETTER
1) Of course, the PC loads web pages way faster (although Chimera on mac at least comes pretty close, but the mass market of mac users do not know about Chimera).
2) Flash animations are 1000% faster (conservative estimate)
3) GUI is MUCH faster (all windows pop up instantly, including Photoshop save for web, etc.)
4) I get to play Counterstrike and the new Battlefiled 1942 Demo game, etc.

Ways the Mac is BETTER
1) The PC is loud as all hell. I keep my laptop running 24/7 (sleeping when not in use). I was going to do the same with the PC but it's too loud. (The fan)
2) The graphics are just CRAP. The whole windows GUI (using 2000 Professional) is all choppy and nasty.
3) Mac OS X allows you to make multiple network settings!!! C'mon, Windows....
4) PC kept choking on bad RAM. Took a bunch of tries until I got in some RAM in there that worked well
5) Anytime I use the PC for a little while I just miss the mac

Conclusion:
Even though the GUI is faster on PC, and it's a much faster computer than this 400 mhz G4 (mac), I can't bear to use it very much. I only use it to do Flash work, look at certain web sites (especially flash ones), and play games. Anything else, and I'm constantly going back to the mac.

The mac os is like artwork, beautiful... i can't believe how bad the graphics are on the PC.

If I had the dual 1.25 Ghz Desktop mac, i know the GUI would be just as fast (or very very close) to windows and just put that comptuer to shame. I don't know if Flash would be comparable, but to me.... there's no point to the PC other than to play games and look at flash web sites.

Of course, there are some nifty tools on PC you can't get on mac (at least not yet) like optimaze (for flash), and some plugins for photoshop. Nothing major though.

Macs rule


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## marmotton (Aug 29, 2002)

I guess you have not paid for your MS Windows 2000 license either, right? I can't see how you could have spent $600 total on the computer including $200 for a Windows 2000 license.

That kindof make it look cheaper than it actually is, right?


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## solrac (Aug 29, 2002)

all software pirated


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## uoba (Aug 29, 2002)

Hmm, I tend to agree on all points... I had to purchase a £600 pc laptop... it is soley resigned to web testing and the odd thing that cannot be done on a Mac (like hold the door open )

I do wish for speedy UI but I know the next Mac I purchase will deal with this (holding out for one of those mythical G5's, anyone know anything  )

Apart from this, and the keep apps open when a different user wants to log-in, there ain't much I'd take from Windows (this being XP I use!... not eye candy, but eye fat cake!)

But I don't wanna get into another PC-Mac debate


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## Sogni (Aug 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by solrac _
> *I bought my first PC*



So sorry to hear that... my condolences...


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## mindbend (Aug 29, 2002)

The good news is that the GUI does get better on the big Macs. It's still not mind blowingly fast for window resizing, but all other GUI operations (scrolling, moving, etc.) are as fast as you could want.

The bad news is that it costs a premium, though the DP 867 is a very nice bang for you buck box.


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## charlesr82 (Aug 29, 2002)

I used to be a PC user, and I haven't turned back. Windows XP actually gets on my nerves. Speed will come in X, it will just take time. Keep in mind, that Apple is going from an enviroment that had no kernal, to one that does. Also, one of the reasons why XP is so much faster, is that it uses a second generation display layer, as opposed to the third generation used in X. There are huge differences, that just wouldn't be possible in in Windows.


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## plastic (Aug 30, 2002)

Just bought Flash MX for X, and it runs great. 

I miss Classic's GUI speed, which is not present in X. Hope Infinity Loop residents will do something about it. 

Flash MX works very well on my iMac G4/800 running OS 10.1.5. Just in case you "Flasheads" are wondering.


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## solrac (Aug 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by plastic _
> *Just bought Flash MX for X, and it runs great.
> 
> I miss Classic's GUI speed, which is not present in X. Hope Infinity Loop residents will do something about it.
> ...



On mine, Flash MX is slow. It gets slower as you use it. Opening the actions panel takes like 4 seconds. (Faster on subsequent opens.) Eventually just clicking on a layer takes a whole second to light it up. F8 for new symbol can take a whole second. If it gets slower and slower, you can't do much but restart the computer.

The 1 GB of RAM helps a lot.... but still... dog slow compared to a PC.

And of course, Flash movies (SWF files) run 100000000000% faster on PC.

PCs also have many nifty flash tools not available for mac, such as Optimaze.

If your'e doing Flash, the mac is not a good choice.

I do web design and flash and video stuff and mac os x is wayyyy better so I put up with the flash problems.....


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## lonny (Aug 30, 2002)

I dunno guys...
my G3 350 MHz is fast enough for normal use, including FlashMX, which runs beautifully!

Of course windows resizing is slooooow, but this seems to be an issue on much faster machines too.

I only need more power for digital audio.


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## FrgMstr (Aug 30, 2002)

marmotton

OSX free???

thought not


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## squidbite (Aug 30, 2002)

FrgMstr

Macs come with OS X preloaded, so no, you're not paying for it.  A custom-built PC isn't going to include a Windows license, so you have to factor in the price of the OS to make it equivalent.

What part of that don't you get?


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## edX (Aug 30, 2002)

squidbite - since you choose to disable pm's and email communications, you are the proud reciepient of a public warning. Your post was edited for attacking another site member. FrgMstr may not be gung ho mac but he provides a civil voice of disagreement.  Your personal attacks on him or any other site members will not be tolerated. Consider this your official warning. a second violation of board rules will result in loss of status as a registered member.


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## ~~NeYo~~ (Aug 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ed Spruiell _
> *squidbite - since you choose to disable pm's and email communications, you are the proud reciepient of a public warning. Your post was edited for attacking another site member. FrgMstr may not be gung ho mac but he provides a civil voice of disagreement.  Your personal attacks on him or any other site members will not be tolerated. Consider this your official warning. a second violation of board rules will result in loss of status as a registered member. *



Hehe, Ed, ever Considered being a Copper?! .. or maybe something a little more laid back, but still with Power?! a ticket inspector, maybe a Scholol Head of Year?! LOL! 

NeYo


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## edX (Aug 30, 2002)

no, i can't say that i have Neyo. I really don't enjoy this part of moderating at all. i would much rather we all just treated each other as human beings like it says in my sig. Squidbite would have gotten edited and a private explanation just like everyone else around here had he not chosen to block any private communication from anyone on this site which indicates to me that squidbite is avoiding resonsibility for his actions here..

i am studing to be a psychologist - i would much rather work with someone privately to help them increase their self control than to enforce issues of self control in a public forum. that's really all this is an issue of - exercising some self restraintraint and not mouthing off in ways that would get you beaten up in a face to face reality.


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## squidbite (Aug 30, 2002)

<<squidbite - since you choose to disable pm's and email communications, you are the proud reciepient of a public warning. Your post was edited for attacking another site member. FrgMstr may not be gung ho mac but he provides a civil voice of disagreement. Your personal attacks on him or any other site members will not be tolerated. Consider this your official warning. a second violation of board rules will result in loss of status as a registered member.>>


Oooh. So you're going to kill off one of the remaining 5 people who even visit this site any more?  Go right ahead, Ed.  Reduce this site to the rubble it deserves to be reduced to with your egomaniacal power trip (get a frickin' LIFE will you?!) and Admin's playground antics.

Take a good long look at site traffic, especially:

1) after the site was purposely kept offline for a full day, and then

2) after your pathetic ploy for sympathy and tearful kudos for a job well done with that ridiculous poll asking if you should stay or go.

I said it before, and now I really mean it: if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.  FrgMstr's posts are passive-aggressive (I'm sure I'm not the only one who finds them so), and need to be responded to accordingly.

In closing, I have a suggestion where you can stow the "board rules."


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## edX (Aug 31, 2002)

hope it was fun while it lasted squidbite.


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## solrac (Aug 31, 2002)




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## edX (Aug 31, 2002)

sorry to have interrupted your conversation solrac.  

see what kinds of problems you run into when you buy a pc?


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## plastic (Aug 31, 2002)

in a small voice : 

PC Sux.

/me starts running from the flames...


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## Jason (Aug 31, 2002)

pcs only suck if you dont know how to use them, really folks get a grip, these days computers are basically computers, if you have decent hardware in either os its gonna run damned fine 

reason why the masses thinks pcs are reliable because most of the masses a) dont know how to use computers and b) own pc's

so really all this crap about pcs being unreliable and slow and crappy is a load of bs, if you know how to use it, its friggen beautiful, same as the mac os...

i dislike when either platform is offed as being crappy just because said person doesnt know how to use it...


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## plastic (Aug 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by BuddahBobb _
> *pcs only suck if you dont know how to use them, really folks get a grip, these days computers are basically computers, if you have decent hardware in either os its gonna run damned fine *



Out of curiousity, what kinda PC system are you running? And HOW MUCH TIME you spend on maintenance of the PC? Just curious. We have a PC Render farm (20 PC per rack) for the Discreet 3D MAX system. And the IT dudes are usually either smoking or drinking coffee.

There is no need for a Mac dude because all the editors and designers are doing our own maintenance.

So I am really curious.

Please enlighten me. Thanks.


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## plastic (Aug 31, 2002)

Before I get flamed again, I just want to know the facts and truth about PCs. I have never had a good experience with a PC, and I really would love to know more. 

I have seen many techies in PC and Mac environment and there is a great difference. So I really want to hear it from your point of you.


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## FrgMstr (Aug 31, 2002)

ED

You have definately earned my respect from what ive seen in this thread, even though im pro pc more often than not you still let me go about my business aslong as i dont break the rules. Yet you are quick to pounce on rule breakers pro mac or not.

Well done keep up the good work, and good luck with your degree.


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## uoba (Aug 31, 2002)

Yeahbutyoustilluseapc.irn    

[.irn = MIME type for ironic]

... or should that be .ped for pedantic


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## Jason (Aug 31, 2002)

in my experience i have had equal problems on both platforms

win98 and os8 both gave me stability issues

win2k and os9 were both pretty damned stable and getting quicker

winxp and osx were both stable and buggy when first released, both have had various fixes, mac has improved osx more than microsoft has with xp, but xp was more complete when it was released

my maintanence on both machines is pretty simple, every sunday i run disk checks, volume checks etc and defrag the drives on both my systems, occasionally i run into a bigger problem, but that happens on either machine, hell just in the last two days ive had to reinstall jag twice because of a samba issue changing the ownership on all my files and osx disk check "repair permissions" didnt solve the issue... because ive had a couple problems with osx does that mean i run around telling everyone that osx sucks and blah blah? no it was a USER error and MOST computer issues are USER errors whether they know it or not.. true there are hardware conflicts etc, but more often than not the reliability, speed etc depend on the user, not the system

maybe im one of the few computer users out there that refuse to take part in this little piss war between what the better os is...


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## WoLF (Aug 31, 2002)

I also recently built my first PC..
AMD Athlon XP 1600+,
ASUS A7V266-C mobo,
256MB DDR 2100,
6 GB hard drive from my old iMac, (need a bigger one)
15" NEC Multisync LCD 1525V,
BenQ 56x cd-rom (should've got a CDRW)
and a Geforce 4 Ti4200.
Windows XP

The only reason I built my PC was to play games on it. I like it a lot. I had no problems with RAM on the pc. But just recently I got problems with my newly bought 512MB PC-133 RAM with my iMac. I took it out and everything is going good. Thats not the only thing that has pissed me off with the mac recently. Burning is a bitch because I have compatability issues with disk copy and toast burned cds with my PC (my burner is slow, too)

I do have a problem with the pc, I cant seem to get any games to install and play except for Warcraft 3. 

my two cents.


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## marmotton (Aug 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by FrgMstr _
> *marmotton
> 
> OSX free???
> ...



No, but cheaper than Windows ...


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## plastic (Aug 31, 2002)

Thanks for the insight into the PC vs Mac OS thingy. I am not here to piss off Windoze like Macsurfshop does...  and I use a PC at home like WOLF to play games (nice graphic card in your set up Wolf, I am still stuck with a Gforce 2 MX400) and I have been having crappy problems with the PC. It has been reformatted twice since I got it (8 months) and I hardly run into any problems with the Macs (to be fair, I am still stuck with 9.2.2 because of the Audio software that I am using).

BuddahBobb, from my experience in the Apple Centre, I think you should not even worry about defrag in Mac. "Move, erase and move back" is the best way to maintain the Mac HDD from experience. Most problems with HDD, from experience, comes from using defrag software like Norton Utilites or MacMedic. I am not sure why this happens and I cannot give you a technical explanation, so as a rule of thumb, I don't defrag. So far this worked fine on my whole army of Macs. 

But I will continue to learn more about PCs from the others in this forums to get a clearer perspective about PCs. I know I am going to get shot again for this, but the majority of the programmers from a respectable PC company and someone from Intel I know in Singapore uses Macs at home and sometimes at work (because of OS X) and they swear that the Mac is a better platform. Might want to get them in here one day to explain why. They are the real PC gurus I know in person and they too, prefers the "stability" of Macs and they have never dare claim that PC are as stable.

This is why I am so confused when you guys went on to say that MS WIN OS is stable when the guys in (cannot reveal) says other wise and they are all praise for the Jaguar. They even daringly made a bulk purchase for Jaguar which really made me laugh.

Like someone else said, this is a matter of preference. I respect that. I just prefer my computer snowy and silvery.

THanks for sharing, everyone. ProMac or ProPC. I have learnt lots.


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## hulkaros (Sep 1, 2002)

...say it again:

PCs (but NOT Macs) are like bomb devices:
They are just ticking, ticking and ticking and then BOOM!

ANYONE who thinks that PCs are stable in ANY incarnation (Win9x up to WinXP, including Win2k Server) OBVIOUSLY he/she haven't seen THAT many PCs to understand what's really going on...

You built that Win (insert ANY windows version here) box with Pentium4/2 GHz and/or AthlonXP/2000+ with JUST M$ Office... And after some days and/or months the box DOESN'T start-up, giving you one, two or more BSOD! And that's not in a home environment only, where you can say that it doesn't matter THAT much but in an company environment too where they do NOT play games, do NOT install garbageware and everything is supposedly as clean as possible on the PCs! And you know what? Such thing REALLY matters in companies! Haven't you notice that how many companies chose NOT to buy the Windows XP simply because they had their companies burned for buying that new, stable, platform of Windows 2000 Pro/Server with Pentium4 1 or 1 1/2 years ago  

The reason why a PC stops working? Sorry! There is no logical reason why the box doesn't start other maybe that it got a soul by itself and decided to stop working for a human  

As for performance, oh please... Here is a part from a previous post of mine:
Have you ever used an Athlon XP 2100? PentiumIV 2,53? Dual G4/1000? I've used every single one of them in PhotoShop, Corel 10, DVD mastering, basic OS apps (Win2k & XP for PC, OS X for G4) and you know what? You DO NOT understand the f..king difference  

On the contrary ANYONE who sees the dual g4 in action gets his pants wet! Why? Because it can have Win2k server running under Virtual PC uploading content to the internet, play mp3, burn CD, have a load of apps loaded and continues to perform that PhotoShop/Corel action while having Classic apps downloading content from the Internet... Even on Pentium IV 2,53 running 2k/XP such a similar thing becomes a nightmare! Apps DON'T respond like in G4 and most of the time they seem like going to crash... Most of the people base the speed of the processors with benchmarks and how fast Windows compared to Mac OS X draw windows on the screen. BS. And anyone who saw a dual g4 in action and any of the above x86 rigs in action knows what I'm talking about... and right about now smiles, BIG time...  

Oh, did I mention that the x86 rigs run with DDR/266/333 memory, FASTER Geforce cards, ATA-133 hard disks, etc? Wait till Apple gives us such things... Even without faster Gx processors we will see MORE speed coming from a G3/G4 box because you know what? The OS is another speed factor and Mac OS X with more speed is here: They've left the cat out of the bag babe!

PS. Even ZDnet (which they always find ugly things to say about Apple), lately with the Jaguar and all, they seem to enjoy apples, dare I say, more than M$ Wintel boxes
PS. As for games... The truth, while it hurts, is that PC simply has more and better games than the Mac but then again the same can be said for the PC when you compared it with Xbox, PS2, Gamecube and yes, even Dreamcast
PS. And a BIG reason that NOONE mentions why they prefer a PC instead of a Mac and/or games console is that of piracy. They can have the latest and the greatest apps/games with almost no costs and they seem to like it more than anything else and that's why they prefer the BlueSreenOfDeath instead of Aqua the BlueScreenOfLife!


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## solrac (Sep 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by hulkaros _
> *...say it again:
> 
> PCs (but NOT Macs) are like bomb devices:
> ...



That sounds great and all but I have lots of PC friends who've never had a blue screen of death for no reason. It just takes knowledge of how the computer works.

It's true though that to maintain a PC very well is A LOT harder and complicated than maintaning a mac.


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## hulkaros (Sep 1, 2002)

So, Solrac you have friends who are living in this world and never had a BSOD while using Win(any version)? And this is the truth? What do they do? Play Solitaire? Write documents in Notepad? Oh, Please! THIS IS BS... EVERYONE in the real world using ANY Windows version had a BSOD now and then! 

Me too, have spoken with people (not just friends but customers as well) who claimed NOT having a BSOD screen until I pointed out what that BSOD really is... And guess what? They knew what I was talking about...

Maintaining PCs is not just harder but it is useless because one day it just decides to play dead...

Also, try this: Talk to ANYONE and explain to them how your very old and then your old and then your new computer makes you angry for crashing now and then and how you really hate them... Not mentioning the fact that you use a Mac but ANY PC running Windows. You know what? They will understand you and start saying to you that they have more or less similar problems or even worst! Also, if one understands that he/she knows more than you about PCs he/she will try to offer you help by giving you advises like use Windows 2000/XP or buy another device from a well known company and useless tricks like those... But in the end you and you mate will agree that a Wintel machine has its problems, other times strange ones, other times logical ones, and some other times simply paranoid ones! You will agree, agree and agree all of the time if you say the above things. And when you finally decide to tell the truth that you have a Mac and you hate PCs you will see the same person before your eyes changing into another person who hates Macs and loves his PC life ALL the way because he/she doesn't have ANY problems... Yeah, right!


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## plastic (Sep 1, 2002)

me poke at hulkaros gently...

Allow me to say this... Everyone knows how we pro-Mac-ers feel about x86-ers. But I think this PC bashing thing have to be done in a more graceful way...

I am being nosey here, but I do hope that a Mac forum will not turn into another one of those ugly places. I like this joint a lot and have been reading and coming back often. Just pains me to see Ed coming in and having to tell fellow Mac-ers off about PC bashing.

Like I mentioned earlier, just a gentle request... can?


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## hulkaros (Sep 1, 2002)

Well, excuse me Plastic if I offended you or anyone else in this forum. This wan NOT my intention... However, did I used bad language? Did I tell lies? Did I say simply say that PCs suck? Nope!

What I simply post was MY experiences with BOTH platforms (I have the privilege to work as a technician for both PCs and Macs).

I am not pro-mac nor PC-basher... I simply state MY experiences. Now, if my experiences seem to bash PCs and/or be pro-Mac, excuse me! I simply post facts based on my experiences on the PC/Mac field and if you or anyone else, feel like I bash PCs or I blindly support the Mac I simply say: Welcome to the real world! Since when one can post BS about Mac or even worst lies on how PCs are better than Macs and go unnoticed? I am MORE than happily willing to beat it from this forum if Ed says so. Just because anyone can post BS about how much better PCs are from Macs and me not be able to reply back then if this is your way (including this very forum) I simply choose NOT to obey anyone on this and just say with ALL my heart:

Macs ARE better than PCs overall


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## Jason (Sep 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by hulkaros _
> *Did I tell lies? Did I say simply say that PCs suck? Nope! *



actually stating your personal experiences as "proof" that all pc's suck basically show you as a liar in that regard

win9x gave me about as man bsod's as the mac0s (pre X) gave me bomb's... this is coming from someone who has run two labs before, a pc lab and a mac lab

both plat forms get extremely messy with use by people who dont know what they are doing

where as my pc and mac at home i havent had many problems either way... i would say because i know what im doing, but with osx i really dont.. yet 

anyways i just think its funny when a user is so ignorant that they f*ck up their computer, dont know they did it, then blame it on the os... anyways ive had enough of sitting here defending pc's being attacked by blind mac loyalists, just as ive gotten sick on pc boards saying crap about macs... its obvious there is so much hatred and contempt for the other system that it has rendered your ears and mind closed to all outside or different arguments or opinions...

so i'll kindly just swallow it and put up with the constant bullsh*t one sided opinions of this forum


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## mmilano (Sep 1, 2002)

it bothers me when people compare Macs to PC's ..when in actuality they are really comparing Mac OS to Windows.  ( mostly )

PC != Windows  ( for non-programming minds, that means "PC does NOT equal Windows )  - - i just wanted to make that perfectly clear.

As everyone knows, OS X is based on BSD which has been developed on PC's for many Years.

I have 3 systems now, .. P4 1.7GHZ PC Running windows, an AMD 1.5GHZ PC running Redhat 7.3, and a Dual 1GHZ G4 running OS X.

Each of my non-Mac systems were under $800.  If I put the $3k into a non-Mac server that I spent on my Mac, it would no doubt be an amazing piece of equipment.  I could put BSD 4.6 on it and it would be an incredible server.  Even an $800 PC with BSD on it would make a solid server.  

I love my Mac, ..  OS X is the most beautiful GUI I have seen by far, .. and especially since it's running on a unix kernel.

Each System of mine serves it's own purpose.  For example, there are several IDE's that I run on windows such as Visual C++ for developing windows programs.  As an application developer, this is a must.  Even for a web developer, having a windows box is a must if you care what people are going to be seeing.   Also as mentioned earlier, certain games such as counter-strike can only be played on windows. ( even though there is a linux port for the server program ) (( no it won't work on os x ))  I use my redhat box for learning and developing my unix skills and I constantly change distros to see what new things are being developed.  My mac is used for Video/Audio editing.  I use each box for what it does best.  ( i'm not a switcher, i go 3 ways )

If you like OS X so much then you must appreciate the *nix community who mostly run and develops on pc's with their favorite ever-changing latest distro. Of course using these various versions of *nix is not for the average computer user.

The only point I'm really trying to make here is that saying "PC's Suck" is *completely ignorant*.  Saying "Macs are incredible" is not.  Saying "Windows Sucks" is ok too, but mostly cause we like to bash gill bates =)

A minivan might suck to a teenager, but a family of 6 would think otherwise.   errr, nevermind, bad analogy, minivans just suck now cause of suv's.. but you get what i'm saying.

Is anyone with me on this one?


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## edX (Sep 1, 2002)

BuddahBobb - i think you are a bit overstating it to say that Hulkaros is a liar becuase he bases his proof upon his own experience. It would be more fair to say that his results may be limited by the nature of the environment in which he has made his observations, or by not having a large enough sample of observations, or.... i hope you see what i am getting at.

we are all entitiled to "personl truths" whether they hold up all the time or not. This discussion always tends to get messy when we all start talking about the different aspects. 

I am just an average user and i have yet to see a pc that runs as nicely as a mac unless it is dedicated to a limited number of applications. but i admit that is based upon a limited number of observations. Outside of the web, i don't know anyone in real life that gets as wrapped up in platform wars as folks here do. But i do know that my pc using friends are constantly frustrated because their computers have difficulty doing the things they are supposed to be able to. whereas most mac users are frustrated by not having the full range of options in software that pc's do. This makes me feel pretty good that at least 90% or more of the time i can at least do what i expect given the limitations of a platform that is treated like a second class citizen of the world simply because the majority never bother to investigate it due to cost and ffear of having to learn something new.

do i have any proof that macs are better and pc's suck - no, at least none outside of my personal experience. and i am sure that makes me biased, but at least i am happy with my bias and my experience and can be proud to be one of the 5% who actually make up about 50% of the active average web users (i forget where i get that figure, but it was in a news article somewhere recently).

but i do think it is unfair to claim that macs always work and that they are trouble free. several forums around here are pretty good proof that this isn't so.  Being the best doesn't mean being perfect. and it is probably fair to say that whose hands are operating either platform has much to do with how well it works.


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## Jason (Sep 1, 2002)

like i said im dropping it, as far as im concerned when im here i just have to put up with the "fact" that windows is a crappy os, that is unreliable...


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## mmilano (Sep 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by BuddahBobb _
> *like i said im dropping it, as far as im concerned when im here i just have to put up with the "fact" that windows is a crappy os, that is unreliable... *



Hey Buddah, that is a great philosophy.  It will make my stay here much more enjoyable also.  =)

It's funny, .. it kinda reminds me of having a nice Harley, and a nice Kawasaki street bike.  When you're with the Harley crowd, you wouldn't really be talking much about any other brand, .. unless it was about it sucking... even though you use each one for different things.


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## Annihilatus (Sep 1, 2002)

To say the least, I find it absolutely ridiculous how Mac users who have never used a PC for more than five minutes can talk about how Windows CONSTANTLY has a blue screen.

Whether it's Windows 95/98/ME, 2000 or XP, blue screens happen for a reason and most of the time it's because the user did something idiotic. The same way Mac users will get a kernel panic, Windows will get a blue screen. No different way.

Since I switched to 2000 and then XP, I never had a blue screen. I used to experience blue screens when I had sh*tty systems running on defective motherboards, incompatible ram or a burned-out video card. Give me a new system with quality hardware as I have it now, and I will never get a blue screen whether it's 95 or XP.

Just to give you an idea, I've had my XP system now running for 5 days because of extensive downloading and waiting in queues. Has it crashed? No. Has it slowed down? Hell no. Have my transfers constantly come in without a problem? Yes.

Choosing the PC over a Mac is basically choosing variety. With a PC, even though Windows XP is not as pretty as the Mac OS X is, I get first dibs on every new piece of hardware (except those made explicitly by Apple), I get first dibs on software, I get first dibs on utilities that allow me to do more on the Internet and in the world.

The second a Mac gives a regular user a huge selection of games that are released at the same time as the PC (this does not exist no matter what some of you say, Warcraft 3 does not translate into a variety, it's ONE game), once the Mac gets cool hardware at a good price (and not double the price like just about everything in its selection), and once Apple gets something other than its iTools to push its system, it'll beat the PC. Until then, you're stuck.

You guys can talk about how cool your iTools are for the rest of your lives. iTools doesn't make a system. iTools isn't even part of the system anymore. Whether you like the sh*tty OS that Windows is or not, Microsoft's garbage can of an OS as you will refer to it allows for more choice, not less (regardless of what you might say about its 'anti-competitive practices'). 

_My opinion of the latter is that Microsoft truly provides a product that is superior to the competition so there should not be a wonder as to why it is in the lead and not trailing behind._


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## solrac (Sep 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by hulkaros _
> *So, Solrac you have friends who are living in this world and never had a BSOD while using Win(any version)? And this is the truth? What do they do? Play Solitaire? Write documents in Notepad? Oh, Please! THIS IS BS... EVERYONE in the real world using ANY Windows version had a BSOD now and then!
> 
> Me too, have spoken with people (not just friends but customers as well) who claimed NOT having a BSOD screen until I pointed out what that BSOD really is... And guess what? They knew what I was talking about...
> ...



i didn't say that my PC friends never got a blue screen of death.

I'm sure they do every now and then, just like my OS X has gotten a kernel panic 4 or 5 times in the last year and a half. Maybe another 4 or 5 times it just froze and I had to reboot.

But those problems are solved by a reboot, then everything is fine again for a couple months.

This is the promise of Windows XP and Mac OS X.

NO PROBLEMS, except an occasional (rare) system crash, which a reboot solves completely and nothing else happens for a few months.

So far Mac OS X and Windows XP have come through on this. Although Win XP still looks like sh*t compared to OS X, and is harder to use, and harder to learn all the ins and outs of the system, and is not as intuitive and user friendly as mac.

Of course, windows does get all the new hardware, software, and utilities first, like annhiliatus said.

Once Mac OS X saturates the mac market, and millions of new poeple have switched to mac (or bought their first computer, a mac), and more developers work for the mac platform, we'll see lots of utilities, games, and hardware come out right away for mac, as well.

At that point, macs will have ZERO speed issues with the GUI or anything else, and will TOPPLE PCs.

Unless Microsoft can come up with something else by that time. But I see Apple on a path to strong market competitive status, even leadership.


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## mmilano (Sep 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by solrac _
> *At that point, macs will have ZERO speed issues with the GUI or anything else, and will TOPPLE PCs.
> 
> Unless Microsoft can come up with something else by that time. But I see Apple on a path to strong market competitive status, even leadership. *


geez.. i guess you didn't read my post. do you mean mac os will topple microsoft?    fyi.  a pc is the hardware that you install an operating system on.  and if we look at it that way, then a big part of the mac is an "average" pc.  ati makes video cards for pc and mac . the ram is cross-platform too... so are hard drives.  so as far as hardware is concerned, .. the primary difference between mac and pc is the mobo and processor... and your mac is a big percent that pc's are.

your statement is so narrow minded .. as if mac and windows are the only os in the world..  mac os came from bsd, an os that has been developed on pc's for many years.  it will be the unix developers who streamline mac issues who are apart of the open source community which i'm sure as a result, other flavors of *nix will benefit from these sorts of developments.

hello, ... open your mind a little.. remember where os x came from.

hey check it out:  http://www.linuxiso.org/  there is just a handfull of other o/s if you don't know anything beyond mac and windows.  notice bsd in there too .. yes,  say hi to os x's daddy


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## solrac (Sep 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by mmilano _
> *geez.. i guess you didn't read my post. do you mean mac os will topple microsoft?    fyi.  a pc is the hardware that you install an operating system on.  and if we look at it that way, then a big part of the mac is an "average" pc.  ati makes video cards for pc and mac . the ram is cross-platform too... so are hard drives.  so as far as hardware is concerned, .. the primary difference between mac and pc is the mobo and processor... and your mac is a big percent that pc's are.
> 
> your statement is so narrow minded .. as if mac and windows are the only os in the world..  mac os came from bsd, an os that has been developed on pc's for many years.  it will be the unix developers who streamline mac issues who are apart of the open source community which i'm sure as a result, other flavors of *nix will benefit from these sorts of developments.
> ...



Yeah but I'm not talking about hardware, or other OSes.

I'm talking about Mac OS vs Windows OS.

Those are the only OSes that matter to the mass consumer market.

And it's been Windows toppling Mac for a decade now. The tables are slowly turning.

I know of all the other OSes but they are not included in this conversation.

This only relates to the large percentage of the 250 million consumers in america, and more worldwide, that don't even have a computer yet, and never touched one.

For them, it's either Mac or Windows.

And most people will recommend to them Windows. I'm saying, within a couple years, it'll be Mac.


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## mmilano (Sep 1, 2002)

Thank you for rephrasing that =)  It is so much easier to read that way  

I can't wait for rival *nix o/s available for PC's  .. It would be nice to not have to spend an arm and a leg for the proprietary hardware to run X on.


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## hulkaros (Sep 2, 2002)

PC rulez! Ok? No, I really mean this... They rule the world for real! And then comes Hulkaros and tries to defend a crappy OS by the name of Mac OS X and all of a sudden he and that OS are BS!

Personal experience friends not with one PC, not two, not even a thousand....

Its more like tens of thousands! No really! That little... As I said before for MANY-MANY years I work as a PC technician and for the past year I have the privilege to be a Mac tech too! And you know what? It has been a lot EASIER, FUNNIER, more PRODUCTIVE and CHEAP too!!! Not for our company only but for those customers who switched to the Mac platform too! The Total Cost of Ownership is REALLY low when you buy and/or sell Macs wither you like it, believe it or not...

Of course M$ made Windows 2000 Pro/Server which as I said in other posts are the most stable OSes M$ ever built (XP let's just say that it has another 2 or 3 Service Packs to go so that it can be called stable, mature, etc.) but they had Apple and Linux community to be afraid of... Or ain't that so? Come on, we all know the truth of how M$ afraids Linux & Apple too!

Now regarding BSOD because you all seem NOT to get it, ask an IT manager of any given company how MANY dollars they throw to support their PCs and you will get it... Top dollars! Not just because of BSOD but because I said before the way that a Wintel PC chooses not to obey his master at random times and yes the problem is not solved by just reset the PC...

As for low quality parts that cause the crashes, etc I think IBM, HP, Dell, Compaq et al claim to have the BEST PC parts one can find on the market and STILL have problems with Windows... To me as Omni puts it, while they said the following only for M$ Office, methinks that it is true for Windows too: M$ put so many features into their programs with so many options, buttons, etc and that makes their programs unreliable, not funny and make the end user feel stupid and not the other way around! Come on guys, even M$ admits that their OSes and apps are too massive for programmers to solve problems easily... And you know what? If their software was that good, how come and they constantly discover bugs? Gimme a break: Windows 2000 family Service Pack 3 its 130 MEGA BYTES for crying out LOUD... SP2 was 100 MB... You know what? The first release of the Win2k family, the full CD was more like 400-450 MB!!!

Do you ANY of you think for real that Windows 2k and XP are that hot? Then how come NO company upgrades? Oh, I know: They wait when those OSes will be more mature... Or is it because companies afraid of falling victims of M$, again... And believe me, many companies start to realize that after all, M$ is not that good or any good at all... That's why Linux is on the rise as well as Mac OS X. Also, when I am talking of Apple I am not talking of Mac OS pre X times. No, I am talking of Mac OS X, which changed Apple for good from that niche company to one that sails for other seas, new ones or dare I say undiscovered ones?

As for a product which sells more therefore is the best product available or a company which is No.1 in its sector is No.1 overall, that's plain BS... Obviously you haven't heard about Amiga OS, Atari OS, Stacker, DR, Novell, Quarterdeck, Norton, BE, and many-many other companies and products which more or less demolished by M$ while those offered a lot better technologies... Back at OS/2 times we had a 32bit OS which could be run at 4MB with GUI on a 386/33 MHz, with so many functions that M$ copied with Win9x and even with Win2k and still that OS disappeared from the market... I bet that even Linux could not beat the OS/2 requirements while running a GUI!

So, back off, telling people around -and even worst, to yourselves- that M$ is the best out there because they are No.1 in the market, 'cause simply put that's a BIG lie, fellas...

Oh, and one other thing: The ones defending the PC always mention of stupid users who mess their machines and they are the ones to blame and not M$... Obviously you don't have an idea of how a real programming MUST be done or you are working for M$... You know what? The first rule of ANY given software is to make it in a way that a user will NOT be able to mess it THAT much so he/she will render it useless... While at the same time will be easy from him/her to use that software! In that area Apple succeeds more than M$ and that's why methinks in that the next version of Windows will resemble Mac OS X more than anything else...
As for which platform is the best: Maybe I am wrong on this, but I think it's the one with the apple logo on its products. Not just because I say so but because I NEVER saw a person use a Mac OS X machine and not wanted one... And you know why they choose a Wintel? Because of piracy, a lot less money needed to buy one and more games on Wintel... Not because they like Windows or M$ but because the Wintel platform have illegal copies EVERYWHERE, warez AND comes cheap too! So, there I said it... And for those who think otherwise can continue to think so but I know that deep inside them they REALLY envy a Dual G4/1.25 with Mac OS X more than ANY other Wintel box out there 

Now if that Mac OS X box could run Kazaa, Morpheus, WinMX, et al too 

Ain't life a beetch, PC and Mac fellas? 

And for those who think that I am blind, I say to them that they may be right on the mark but I am in the privilege position of having both at my fingers. I use both. I HAVE to use both. I care for both. I want to use both. But in the end I enjoy the Mac a lot more... You know what? Maybe that's the way of me living like this: I am married to my wife for many years and I enjoy being with her just like the first days we met! In my path I had all those girls, women wanted to be with me but I rejected them (even for the one night thing) and still doing the same thing and will continue to do the same thing... Not because my wife is the most beautiful one or the smartest or the most educated of them all but because I simply love her because she is what she is and that's it!


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## solrac (Sep 2, 2002)

That's all great hulkaros.

It's true that mac has less stupid options and is therefore easier and more stable, yet you can get exactly the same thing done.

It's true that mac is nicer and easier to use.

It's true that mac makes a system that a user can't ruinate. (Unless they sign in as root! HAHA)

But the only reason the mac is behind is because of games. That's IT.

There's equal piracy on mac. It's easier to steal mac software on ******  than it is to steal PC software on ***** and ****** actually.

There's equal utilities / software. 

Now with OS X, there's equal database, server, ODBC, etc. etc. etc. Even more on the UNIX side.

The ONLY thing that separates the mac as inferior to PC is that it costs more money to have a fast system and not as many games.

In every other way the mac excels.

I just did a bunch of photoshop / web design work on my new PC.

Why? Cuz it's 1000000000x faster than my TiBook 400. My TiBook is molasses, even with 1 GB of RAM.

But the whole time I missed the mac, even though I have been using windows for years and have an objective viewpoint and not biased to mac.

Once all the games come out for mac at the same time as PCs, and knowledge about macs spreads to regular consumers, and not LIES, then the macs will start to take over, unless M$ makes an AWESOME OS but is that really gonna happen? I think not. Apple will be ahead for a long time.


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## plastic (Sep 2, 2002)

Is taking vitamin C pills good for your body?

Gee, I think like the above question, health freaks will say yes, while those who are into organic foods will scream and press the panic button.

By now, I have a better understanding of the PC - Mac - Windoze (have to do this... habitual) - Unix - OS X - Linux and the rest of the computer world terminology (spell check?)

Guys, this is fast becoming a flame fest (Ed, I know I should not use this sensitive word, but I really hate to see this happening in here). And no, I don't own this joint. I am only a newbie guest here. Yes, a noob.

Conclusion (so far) : 

Hardware - Good computers means expensive hardware.

OS - If you are good at setting up the OS on whatever platform you prefer, I guess it will be stable. (Except "OS E" on USS Enterprise in Star Trek). Heck, even Palm OS crashes!

So I shall keep my mouth SHUT and not comment anymore about what I prefer. I think I have said enough. There are people who prefer PCs and there are those, like me, who loves the Mac. 

I remember a MS Engineer telling me once that : "Only retards use Macs because you cannot tweak them like Windows machine does." 

I just mailed him OS X today.


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## solrac (Sep 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by plastic _
> *I just mailed him OS X today. *



Piracy anyone?


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## uoba (Sep 2, 2002)

He could be a vendor sending it in the post? (help me out here plastic )


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## plastic (Sep 2, 2002)

Ahem, I am a digital audio system integrater for Apple system. I have with me, three ORIGINAL Jaguars. And I am waiting for the first OS X enabled Logic Audio to come as well for testing purpose. I sent that dude a copy of Jaguar because I recently found out that he had bought for himself a TiBook! ha ha ha... a second hand 500 I think.

No, I do not support piracy. I compose music for NY company, peer music and I am suffering FIRST HAND from the effects of Napster.

Thank you.


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## plastic (Sep 2, 2002)

Come to think about it, how many of you actually have the 10.1 CD packages? Remember the upgrade pack for 10.1.4? Anyone? I have only two sets with me, kicking myself for sending out eight copies. Gee... that was pretty dumb....


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## Annihilatus (Sep 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by hulkaros _
> *Of course M$ made Windows 2000 Pro/Server which as I said in other posts are the most stable OSes M$ ever built (XP let's just say that it has another 2 or 3 Service Packs to go so that it can be called stable, mature, etc.) but they had Apple and Linux community to be afraid of... Or ain't that so? Come on, we all know the truth of how M$ afraids Linux & Apple too!*



Every person, including myself, that has ever switched to Linux regretted it days later. Windows a much more friendly OS than Linux is and certain builds of Linux, like Mandrake, are so buggy and crash so often that you're better off just staying with Windows. As for XP itself needing a couple of service packs, I've always updated mine and it is extremely stable. My girlfriend never updates her version of XP and it's extremely stable. An old geezer that lives next to her that used to use a Mac and now uses a PC never updates and he too has never had stability issues. These are THREE regular people that don't have stability issues. I honestly think you're lying about being a PC technician.



> *Now regarding BSOD because you all seem NOT to get it, ask an IT manager of any given company how MANY dollars they throw to support their PCs and you will get it... Top dollars! Not just because of BSOD but because I said before the way that a Wintel PC chooses not to obey his master at random times and yes the problem is not solved by just reset the PC...*



Well with all of the viruses made for the PC, it's rather normal that there would have to be a lot of support for PC computers. The same way there are complete morons using a Mac, there are morons using a PC and these are the geniuses that click on every attachment of every email they ever get. They also willingly sign up to every spam list and then complain about it. Knowing their stupidity, you would understand why IT would need so much money to cover up the holes they made. Replace all of those PC's with Macs and you'll have the same amount of stupid people regardless. Replace the market share of the PC with that of the Mac and more people will write viruses on the Mac for those stupid people to get infected with. The ONLY reason there are 'no security issues' with Macs as untrue as that is is because no geek is willing to bother destroying a Mac (most PC people will say that using a Mac is a pain in itself). Virus writers, who want their virus to be as popular as possible, don't see the point of infecting as little people as possible. Finally, ask hackers (not Mac users) what's easier to hack, Windows or Unix, and the real hackers will tell you that it's a lot easier getting into a Unix machine than a Windows machine. You'll all disagree, but you're all biased too.



> *As for low quality parts that cause the crashes, etc I think IBM, HP, Dell, Compaq et al claim to have the BEST PC parts one can find on the market and STILL have problems with Windows... To me as Omni puts it, while they said the following only for M$ Office, methinks that it is true for Windows too: M$ put so many features into their programs with so many options, buttons, etc and that makes their programs unreliable, not funny and make the end user feel stupid and not the other way around! Come on guys, even M$ admits that their OSes and apps are too massive for programmers to solve problems easily... And you know what? If their software was that good, how come and they constantly discover bugs? Gimme a break: Windows 2000 family Service Pack 3 its 130 MEGA BYTES for crying out LOUD... SP2 was 100 MB... You know what? The first release of the Win2k family, the full CD was more like 400-450 MB!!!*



Let's be logical here for a second and put ourselves in the average consumer's shoes. A new version of Windows is released. Model A is a Windows version with the same sh*t but more secure and stable. Model B is a Windows version with an improved, nicer interface and extra features. Which of the two models will sell out? Why would MS choose Model B knowing that it will sell out? Assuming that aesthetics are the most important thing for a Mac user (since just about every thread here is focused on talking about how much prettier Mac OS X is and how Macs look nicer), MS knows that every consumer, even Mac users, would take model B. MS is a company, it wants to make money. It'll focus on what consumers want FIRST, cover up the rest after. No average consumer would pay 200$ for extra security. As for IBM, HP, Compaq and what not having the best quality hardware, if you are indeed a PC technician then you should know this to be false. Those companies put an integrated video card, audio card and modem, as well as an integrated network card. Whatever costs them the least and allows them to profit the most. NO OEM COMPANY, NOT EVEN APPLE, PUTS HARDWARE IN THEIR MACHINES THAT'S HIGH-QUALITY. If you want such a thing, you build the computer yourself. Again, if you're a PC technician and I know that you are not, you'll know that HSF modems, SiS audio, network and graphics chipsets don't allow you to do much. That's hardly high-quality.



> *Do you ANY of you think for real that Windows 2k and XP are that hot? Then how come NO company upgrades? Oh, I know: They wait when those OSes will be more mature... Or is it because companies afraid of falling victims of M$, again... And believe me, many companies start to realize that after all, M$ is not that good or any good at all... That's why Linux is on the rise as well as Mac OS X. Also, when I am talking of Apple I am not talking of Mac OS pre X times. No, I am talking of Mac OS X, which changed Apple for good from that niche company to one that sails for other seas, new ones or dare I say undiscovered ones?*



Neither Linux nor Mac OS X is on the rise according to market stats, you're basically making up stuff as you go along. AS for companies not upgrading, you have to consider how much upgrading costs. Even if MS made the greatest OS tomorrow, companies would be satisfied with their previous offering and would stick to it until it's absolutely obselete. Think of NT4. The OS sucks IMO, but companies (even mine) are sticking to it because it works well enough. 2000 and XP are way better, but why pay a couple of thousand to get a nicer interface that does the same thing. Maybe as a Mac user you're used to spending massive amounts of money so that Photoshop loads a second quicker or iTunes plays a visualization smoother, but any consumer with a brain won't.



> *As for a product which sells more therefore is the best product available or a company which is No.1 in its sector is No.1 overall, that's plain BS... Obviously you haven't heard about Amiga OS, Atari OS, Stacker, DR, Novell, Quarterdeck, Norton, BE, and many-many other companies and products which more or less demolished by M$ while those offered a lot better technologies... Back at OS/2 times we had a 32bit OS which could be run at 4MB with GUI on a 386/33 MHz, with so many functions that M$ copied with Win9x and even with Win2k and still that OS disappeared from the market... I bet that even Linux could not beat the OS/2 requirements while running a GUI!*



Actually I've heard of all those OS's. I still think that AMiga and Atari should have been where the PC and Mac are and PC and Mac should have died. However, that's not the case. OS/2 btw was a product that at its very beginning was created by MS. What was to become OS/2 when MS and IBM drifted apart became NT. To say though that OS/2 would run on a 386-33 wih 4 megs, while technically true in that it RUNS, it is such a painful experience that even people who don't understand DOS would want to go back to it. Since you're such an expert though, I'd like for you to at least mention a couple of things that MS copied from OS/2. It should be interesting to see how much bullsh*t you come up with. 



> *So, back off, telling people around -and even worst, to yourselves- that M$ is the best out there because they are No.1 in the market, 'cause simply put that's a BIG lie, fellas...*



I still think Word is the best word processing program and I still think Windows has the most easy to use interface I've ever used. In my opinion, they ARE the best. In a matter of moments though, my opinion will get a lot of responses from trolls.

Andre


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## Annihilatus (Sep 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by solrac _
> *It's true that mac makes a system that a user can't ruinate. (Unless they sign in as root! HAHA)*



I'm not sure whether you meant ruin or urinate. I assure you though that any consumer with enough willpower can learn to urinate on his Mac.  And he won't need root access for it.



> *But the only reason the mac is behind is because of games. That's IT.*



That's an opinion but I will go further and to tell you that the reason people aren't buying Macs is because their friends don't have it. The same thing that will push a person to use MSN Messenger over ICQ or AIM is what will push them to buy a PC over a Mac. The conversation is always the same: I'd like to contact you, do you have an ICQ number? -- No I use MSN messenger. The result is the person gets MSN messenger. The more people respond that they have MSN, the more likely that will be his choice. If your friend tells you that if you buy a PC, he'll copy all of his games for you, the likelihood is that you'll buy a PC to play games with him. Let's say you're a hockey fan and want to play NHL over a network, even if the Mac and PC copies of the game are fully compatible, regular people don't know that and will try to get a computer that's as similar as possible to their friends'. As a result, people buy PC's.



> *The ONLY thing that separates the mac as inferior to PC is that it costs more money to have a fast system and not as many games.*



Paying 2000$ more for a system that's 2x as slow is definitely a factor, I agree.

Andre


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## Annihilatus (Sep 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by plastic _
> *Ahem, I am a digital audio system integrater for Apple system. I have with me, three ORIGINAL Jaguars. And I am waiting for the first OS X enabled Logic Audio to come as well for testing purpose. I sent that dude a copy of Jaguar because I recently found out that he had bought for himself a TiBook! ha ha ha... a second hand 500 I think.
> 
> No, I do not support piracy. I compose music for NY company, peer music and I am suffering FIRST HAND from the effects of Napster. *



This after extensive research has been done disproving that file-swapping has any effect on the purchase of music. Good job.

Andre


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## solrac (Sep 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Annihilatus _
> *
> 
> I'm not sure whether you meant ruin or urinate. I assure you though that any consumer with enough willpower can learn to urinate on his Mac.  And he won't need root access for it.
> *


hey, ruinate _is_ a word.


> *
> That's an opinion but I will go further and to tell you that the reason people aren't buying Macs is because their friends don't have it. The same thing that will push a person to use MSN Messenger over ICQ or AIM is what will push them to buy a PC over a Mac. The conversation is always the same: I'd like to contact you, do you have an ICQ number? -- No I use MSN messenger. The result is the person gets MSN messenger. The more people respond that they have MSN, the more likely that will be his choice. If your friend tells you that if you buy a PC, he'll copy all of his games for you, the likelihood is that you'll buy a PC to play games with him. Let's say you're a hockey fan and want to play NHL over a network, even if the Mac and PC copies of the game are fully compatible, regular people don't know that and will try to get a computer that's as similar as possible to their friends'. As a result, people buy PC's.*


exactly. Which just boils back down to macs don't have games. Everyone's friend has a PC because the games are on it.

If the mac had all the games too, and sufficient time for consumer knowledge to spread that a mac game is fully compatible with a PC game (locally or on the network), then it wouldn't matter what your friends have. PC or Mac can communicate on the internet, has the same software, has all the games.

It is the lack of games that will turn away the largest percentage of consumers. Even a business man who just needs to use excel, could TOTALLY get a mac. But just because his kid wants to play counterstrike, he'll get a PC.



> *
> Paying 2000$ more for a system that's 2x as slow is definitely a factor, I agree.
> 
> Andre *



Well that's a bit of exaggeration. More like $1000 more for a system that's 0.5 times as slow, yet twice as productive in software.

And if you say that windows is the easiest interface you've ever used, out of people who have used both mac and windows extensively (or even casually) then you are in a very unique group.

Maybe you're left-brained?


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## hulkaros (Sep 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Annihilatus _
> *
> 
> Every person, including myself, that has ever switched to Linux regretted it days later. Windows a much more friendly OS than Linux is and certain builds of Linux, like Mandrake, are so buggy and crash so often that you're better off just staying with Windows. As for XP itself needing a couple of service packs, I've always updated mine and it is extremely stable. My girlfriend never updates her version of XP and it's extremely stable. An old geezer that lives next to her that used to use a Mac and now uses a PC never updates and he too has never had stability issues. These are THREE regular people that don't have stability issues. I honestly think you're lying about being a PC technician.
> ...



Look Anni-what? You win! You know everything and you and you other 2 or 3 friends are correct on every account. M$ is the best software/hardware company out there.

And yes you found out the truth: I am not a PC technician. But, I am a PC AND a Mac technician wither you like it or not... Believe it or not...

As for trolls and biased people on this forum, take the following steps:
-Get up
-Go in front of a mirror
-Look at yourself
-Take a good hard look and realize the truth...

You see? It wasn't that hard...


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## plastic (Sep 2, 2002)

I could not touch the screen as I was reading this thread... all these flaming is making this thread too hot! Gee guys... cool off a little will ya? Please?

On the topic of extensive research, well, that is another topic altogether. Maybe we can have a flame war, composers in music losing 60% of income since iTunes came about... ha ha ha... nevermind... I had a good talk with someone from BMG (the dudes who shut Napster down initially)... and the figures were scary... ha ha ha... now the record companies are flooding the servers with rubbish and viruses. Which is scary. They are stooping so low to kill what they cannot control. I cannot totally agree with what they are doing to save income. But nevertheless, I do not support piracy. 

Think about the poor dude who wrote a really good program and we simply rip them off, using it and not paying for it... gee... that dude has to pay bills and eat too right?

OK, enough of preaching. 

Everyone do what you have to do. I was here asking everyone to turn the gas down feeding the flames... it is getting too hot in here. I blame the weather...


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## mmilano (Sep 2, 2002)

hulkaros: pretty rightous speech there loaded with opinion and presented as fact.  but i can respect that.  i just want to comment on a few things.


> PC rulez! Ok?


 here we are off to a bad start.  i read your entire post and you are talking about windows in this paragraph.  you clearly acknowledge linux below, but you are not counting for the fact that linux and every other flavor of unix runs on pcs except for os x.





> "PC rulez! Ok? No, I really mean this... They rule the world for real! And then comes Hulkaros and tries to defend a crappy OS by the name of Mac OS X and all of a sudden he and that OS are BS!
> 
> Personal experience friends not with one PC, not two, not even a thousand.... "


 -- well i read that a few times and could not make much sense of it.  maybe you are defending os x?  i don't think anyone is knocking it.  it is a great os.


> Not for our company only but for those customers who switched to the Mac platform too! The Total Cost of Ownership is REALLY low when you buy and/or sell Macs wither you like it, believe it or not...


 it's obvious you are not supporting a corporate environment, and you are working with consumers who probably use macs at home.  you are entitled to your opinion about price, but in my opinion you are way off.   i've had the same pc running win2k for over a year now that has not costed me over $800 that i spent the day i purchased it.  my other pc that i purchased since then has not costed me more money either... and while i'm at it, neither has my mac.


> Of course M$ made Windows 2000 Pro/Server which as I said in other posts are the most stable OSes M$ ever built (XP let's just say that it has another 2 or 3 Service Packs to go so that it can be called stable, mature, etc.) but they had Apple and Linux community to be afraid of... Or ain't that so? Come on, we all know the truth of how M$ afraids Linux & Apple too!


 that is the most truth i've read in your entire post.


> Now regarding BSOD because you all seem NOT to get it, ask an IT manager of any given company how MANY dollars they throw to support their PCs and you will get it... Top dollars! Not just because of BSOD but because I said before the way that a Wintel PC chooses not to obey his master at random times and yes the problem is not solved by just reset the PC...


 uhh.. how many companies use macs for their entire network?  i work for a company in the media industry, and we a macs, but they are used primarily for media and the few who work remote as they chose titanium laptops.  i'm just saying you can't ask an IT manager because most of them are dealing with pc's running windows in a corporate environment.  if they were working with macs, certainly they would be working with older macs too which beleive it or not, they have their own problems too as i've seen quite a few times at my own job.


> Do you ANY of you think for real that Windows 2k and XP are that hot? Then how come NO company upgrades?


 sorry buddy, "you're wrong".  my corporation has upgraded, and all new systems are xp.  even though i wish they just kept win2k.  i know several companies who use current ms os' too.  but remember now, we are not talking about corporate networks.. that is not a fair comparisant because how many corporations us os x?





> I bet that even Linux could not beat the OS/2 requirements while running a GUI!


 you should really know what you are talking about before you start talking about linux. "linux" is such a gereral term and there are many distros.  i can tell by that statment that you haven't seen more than maybe 1 version.





> So, back off, telling people around -and even worst, to yourselves- that M$ is the best out there because they are No.1 in the market, 'cause simply put that's a BIG lie, fellas...


 wtf are you talking about?  if you read this post more carefully, i think people educating the blind who keep saying "pc's suck" that ms isn't as bad as they say.  even i think that osx is way more beautiful than any windows product, and of course unix is extremely more robust.. but i can acknowledge that "pc's" in general don't suck, and i can distinguish the difference between pc's and windows when i'm conversing.


> Oh, and one other thing: The ones defending the PC always mention of stupid users who mess their machines and they are the ones to blame and not M$... Obviously you don't have an idea of how a real programming MUST be done or you are working for M$...


 by far one of the lamest things you've said.  i can open up my terminal in os x as root and type "rm -rf *" and screw up a lotta sh*t. there are tons of other ways too.  now what about the people who are programmers?  what about users who are power users?  i can get into osx and screw up plenty of crap, and i don't blame programmers for that, it is a feature.  when users mess up windows, they are usually messing with system settings or files just like how i could screw up os x.  besides i believe only 1 person here used that as an example.  you exaggerate.





> And for those who think that I am blind, I say to them that they may be right on the mark but I am in the privilege position of having both at my fingers. I use both. I HAVE to use both. I care for both. I want to use both.


 yeah, your post is kinda blind.  i use both and care for both too.  i can appreciate my mac for what it is.. i can appreciate my pcs for what they are.

if you read this entire post more carefully, .. you might notice no one is saying that MS is the best as you are portraying.  they are more defending the ignorant remarks that pc's suck and so on.

i hope i don't seem like i'm trying to talk down to people.  that is sorta the vibe i got from your post .. although you are interpretting the others you are speaking at wrong.  i just want to preset all this for intelligent discussion without emotions or mactosterone involved.


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## Annihilatus (Sep 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by solrac _
> *
> hey, ruinate is a word.*



Yes, an adjective. Not a verb.



> *exactly. Which just boils back down to macs don't have games. Everyone's friend has a PC because the games are on it.
> 
> If the mac had all the games too, and sufficient time for consumer knowledge to spread that a mac game is fully compatible with a PC game (locally or on the network), then it wouldn't matter what your friends have. PC or Mac can communicate on the internet, has the same software, has all the games.
> 
> It is the lack of games that will turn away the largest percentage of consumers. Even a business man who just needs to use excel, could TOTALLY get a mac. But just because his kid wants to play counterstrike, he'll get a PC.*




Exactly. But let's not forget that even if one game is available on the Mac, not all of them are. You'll get big-name games like Quake or Diablo, but you won't get a lot of newcomers until a year or two later. The PC platform is where game companies WANT to release their games first becuase if their small, budget game becomes a success, it will make a couple of million instead of a couple of thousand. Let's say for instance I get a team of programmers and make a game called Leapin' Lanny in the Land of the Lovely Ladies and it becomes a hit, if I've released that game for the PC, I can make money from my budget game. If I release it for the Mac, I won't. Because if only 10% of all PC users buy my game, I'll have a few million sales. If 10% of all Mac users buy my game, I probably won't even cut a profit.




> *Well that's a bit of exaggeration. More like $1000 more for a system that's 0.5 times as slow, yet twice as productive in software.*



Saying it's more productive is a lie. Mac users will come up with a new reason to switch to Mac every time a PC outdoes them in a field. At first it was the GUI. Once PC got that it was the spped. Once PC got sufficiently fast, it was the stability. Once Windows became stable, they started talking about how productive it is. What determines the productivity of a computer? Will the computer determine that or will the user determine that? Currently, my PC with all of the software I have does way more than a Mac. Therefore my PC is more productive. Plus it costs some 2000$ less than a Mac with most of the software not even available. A computer is not productive, a person is productive. If you're lazy, the Mac won't make you active.



> *And if you say that windows is the easiest interface you've ever used, out of people who have used both mac and windows extensively (or even casually) then you are in a very unique group.*



What's so hard to understand about Windows? Currently loaded programs are at the bottom, currently loaded service are in the tray. All the programs available are in the start menu and if I think something is running, I can do CTRL-ALT-DEL and see what's in memory? It's simply, it's organized and frankly it's organized. If I find that copying files through the GUI is a pain, I can go into DOS and use a command like COPY BITCH*.* C:\REAL and it'll copy any files in a directory that begins with BITCH into the REAL directory. That's simplicity for me.

Maybe it's the 146 IQ.


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## Annihilatus (Sep 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by hulkaros _
> *
> Look Anni-what? You win! You know everything and you and you other 2 or 3 friends are correct on every account. M$ is the best software/hardware company out there.*




As long as you can admit it, all is well. Acknowledging it is the first step to accepting it.



> *And yes you found out the truth: I am not a PC technician. But, I am a PC AND a Mac technician wither you like it or not... Believe it or not...*



Then you must be a freelance technician because I can't see how anyone would want to hire someone who creates as much false information and assumes so many false things as you do.



> *As for trolls and biased people on this forum, take the following steps:
> -Get up
> -Go in front of a mirror
> -Look at yourself
> -Take a good hard look and realize the truth...*



Honestly, when I look in the mirror, I see a good looking guy who doesn't like to be fed assumptions, rumours and beliefs but rather real information. I don't see how you can call me a troll for defending my platform with truth rather than the BS you like to defend yours with.


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## Annihilatus (Sep 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by plastic _
> *On the topic of extensive research, well, that is another topic altogether. Maybe we can have a flame war, composers in music losing 60% of income since iTunes came about... ha ha ha... nevermind... I had a good talk with someone from BMG (the dudes who shut Napster down initially)... and the figures were scary... ha ha ha... now the record companies are flooding the servers with rubbish and viruses. Which is scary. They are stooping so low to kill what they cannot control. I cannot totally agree with what they are doing to save income. But nevertheless, I do not support piracy. *



I don't support it either. I buy any software I find useful because I like to support companies that make good things. However, when record companies release albums with two good songs in a total of 14, they're basically shooting themselves in the foot. If you want people to buy albums, stop releasing so many sh*tty ones.


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## hulkaros (Sep 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by mmilano _
> *i hope i don't seem like i'm trying to talk down to people.  that is sorta the vibe i got from your post .. although you are interpretting the others you are speaking at wrong.  i just want to preset all this for intelligent discussion without emotions or mactosterone involved. *



Ok, you win! I hope you feel better... I am wrong and you are right.

But in one account you are DEAD wrong: I work for a company which supports government companies and/or private sector companies as well as customers who buy computers for home use and/or office use.

Me hulkaros dumb, you smart... You win!


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## Excalibur (Sep 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Annihilatus _
> *
> 
> I don't support it either. I buy any software I find useful because I like to support companies that make good things. However, when record companies release albums with two good songs in a total of 14, they're basically shooting themselves in the foot. If you want people to buy albums, stop releasing so many sh*tty ones. *



Amen to that one. Couldn't have said it better myself.  LOL


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## hulkaros (Sep 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Annihilatus _
> 
> 
> As long as you can admit it, all is well. Acknowledging it is the first step to accepting it.
> ...



Obviously your are one of them who as they say you see in the mirror only what you want to see and not the truth...

As for defending your platform with truth and not BS that other feed you, obviously you don't know the truth: Wintel platform feeds you SO much of it and it seems that you enjoy it! So, excuse me if I try to feed you some of mine too...


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## Anim8r (Sep 2, 2002)

Another dumb Mac vs. PC thread...

From what I can see there is a lot of disinformation being thrown about on both sides.

Annihilatus:
First of all, why PC trolls seem to find it necessary to hang around on a Mac site is beyond me. 
Secondly, the points about usability/productivity have been proven many times by many independant studies (including one or two by PC magazines), so let's put that to rest.
As any reasonably honest IT person will admit to, it is far too easy to forget the level of expertise held by the average computer user. We (and I tend to include most people on this forum) are the advanced users. Most people be they Mac or PC users don't WANT to know what button to press to fix a problem. They just want a computer that works. We are not at the stafge yet where a computer is easy enough to use to be considered an appliance... but the day is coming.

I am also a certified mac/PC tech, although I currently work as a teacher (who would want to work in IT right now) and I have seen how our IT deprtment works. It is amazing how a department that was created to support the institution begins to feel like thay have enough power to dictate how the institution should be run. Our PCs run well enough (HA), but the macs are not treated as well as they should be. For the simple reason that we have no real mac techs. The instructors do most of the maintenance and they do it well. The Mac labs just work. 

I have used Win2K extensively, I have tried XP and find it severely lacking in areas as diverse as support for legacy software and hardware and stability.
I do find OSX to be a more elegant OS in every way. From it's UNIX underpinnings to the GUI.

I still maintain a mixed shop, but as the higher-end 3d/FX applications get ported over, my shop will switch over to the mac exclusively. I get more work done.


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## edX (Sep 2, 2002)

Chill people.

i am closing this thread for a few hours while you all stop and get some perspefctive. 

i would suggest you take this time to read the site rules. pay close attention to rules 1, 3, 6 & 7. You can stop questioning each other's intellegence and integrity. you can stop  repeating the same arguments. any mention of piracy and the sources used to participate in the same context will be deleted and a warning issued. 

and if anyone uses the word sh*t and its variants without spelling like this, i am just going to delete the whole post. i don't have the time or patience today to sift thru these essays to edit a couple of poorly chosen words.


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## edX (Sep 2, 2002)

now, can we discuss this in a civil manner, following site rules, before people start losing their accounts here?


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## plastic (Sep 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Annihilatus _
> *
> However, when record companies release albums with two good songs in a total of 14, they're basically shooting themselves in the foot. If you want people to buy albums, stop releasing so many sh*tty ones. *



Sorry to add this, but they do have singles... I know, not all the "better songs" are released on singles. Sigh... you have a point there. And I do agree.

Come to think about it, it was almost like Photoshop 7. I had to upgrade because of the "healing tool" function. And of course some other little extras. But after a while, it is kind of worth it. I guess everyone has a different point of view when it comes to these things. I shall not say more. As things are as heated up as it is. 

Just like how, when I was in my early teens, back in the 80s, was recording songs off the radio onto cassettes, that was piracy and ripping music too. So I guess these days you do it in a more convenient way. So I am guilty too when I was younger. 

*sigh*


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## kommakazi (Sep 2, 2002)

OK, I'm not even going to read everyone else's replies, I'm only going to say this:
What's wrong with you?


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## Excalibur (Sep 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by plastic _
> *
> 
> Sorry to add this, but they do have singles... I know, not all the "better songs" are released on singles. Sigh... you have a point there. And I do agree.
> ...



However the record labels choose the singles you can listen too. What happens if your favorite song is on the album and it never becomes a single? How do they legally go about solving this issue? Thats my issue with their current model that I figured them offering MP3s or selling songs on a per song basis might help. We can pay for what we like, so we don't get screwed into buying a $14.99 CD for 2 songs.

For software I think its a different issue there.

BTW Sorry for floating off topic guys. My fault.


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## solrac (Sep 3, 2002)

Alright.

I'm not even gonna go through the posts and quote stuff.

I'm just gonna point out the clear facts.

Annhilatus, you are acting like a troll. At first you had clear arguments and demanded facts and numbers. But then you just end up saying that Windows is the best OS ever and that EVERYONE who installs Linux regrets it?

That is utter complete bloody balderdash. (Ed cannot edit out English swear words  )

First of all, I know 4 people that run Linux and love it, and live by it, even if the first reason is to be anti-windows. But they have no problems because they are advanced users and know how to use it.

Second, there are Linux meet ups and conventions so I suppose all these people regret installing Linux?

Third, you say windows is super organized, with the running programs in the task bar, services in the tray, programs in the start menu, and complete directory control through DOS. Well Mac OS X has running programs in the dock, and all the programs available in the Applications Folder (which can also be in the dock), and a full UNIX command line which makes DOS look like a child's toy.

But those are just superficial UI elements. What about unistalling programs? In Windows, Can you remove Windows Media Player? No. It's not available in Add / Remove Programs and to try and manually delete it gives you a permission denied error.

When you try to uninstall a program in Windows you may get a warning saying "remove shared components? This may break other applications." So you of course click NO, and now you can never fully un-install something.

Installing a program on Mac OS X is as simple as "Drag this folder to your hard drive". To uninstall it, drag it to the trash. Makes Windows seem ridiculously complicated. I don't even know why they make installer programs for Mac OS X any more...

So while you may run Windows effortlessly because of your IQ of 146, most of that mental power is used in running and learning the intricacies of Windows. Just like a GeForce Graphics card takes a huge chunk of processing power away from the CPU, Mac OS X takes a huge chunk of mental power away from understanding the OS so that you can get your work done. To learn all the intricacies of Mac OS X would make you a UNIX guru, but it's completely unnecessary. The system just works, for anybody 2 years old to 98 years old, knowledgeable or computer illiterate. You can't say the same for Windows. You want facts? Compare the number of tech support calls that Microsoft gets compared to Apple. (Use ratios for an accurate percentage of course, since Microsoft has many more customers.)

Also, if your IQ is 146, you would know that ruinate is in fact an adjective, but is also a verb, depending on the context of the sentence and how you pronounce it, not that I give a flying rat intercourse.

And also, what you say about game developers making no money on mac is false. Of course, all games should be developed for PC since there is the larger customer base, but Apple has MILLIONS of gamers, too, and to spend the effort to release a mac version can ONLY help, not hurt, unless it's a company on a shoestring budget. It's only a matter of time until 90% of games come out on PC and Mac at the same time.

And Plastic (?) or whoever is talking about music piracy. Annihilatus is actually right... Napster did not hurt any artists, only helped them. Piracy in any form helps the artist or software developer. Piracy allows the user base of Photoshop to be 100 million instead of 10 million. 5% of the 90 million users who pirated are sure to buy it as soon as they can afford it. That's almost 5 million users BUYING photoshop because they had a chance to pirate it originally. Why do you think Adobe makes it so easy to copy Photoshop? They KNOW piracy increases their bottom line. Same with P2P and digital music downloads.

If Red Hot Chili Peppers comes out with a new album, I'm going to think that there's only 2 good songs out of 15 total. Why? Because that's how it is 90% of the time. If I can download all the songs for free, and they are ALL good, I'll definitely buy the CD. But I don't even buy CDs anymore. Why? Because the RIAA is an evil, greedy, evil, hateful empire. They had the music market's balls in a tight grip for years and now they're starting to lose it, big time. And their doing all they can to delay it, such as suing anyone and everyone that even BARELY makes a mistake (Judge Dredd style), and even going so low as to pollute gnutella with bogus files. Well it's too little too late. That evil, hateful, greedy empire is going down. Once they release their grip on the market, they'll allow sites to sell music legally for $1 a song, this is the future of the market! And hear low bitrate versions for free.

If I could hear all the tracks on the CD for free at a low bit rate, and I LOVED 5 of the songs only, I would sure as hell pay $5 for them, at a good bitrate, with no errors, and correct ID3 tags, instead of waste time looking for them. So would millions of other consumers. But the RIAA is too dumb and evil and greedy and hateful to see this and so screw it. I don't even buy CDs anymore unless I'm a rabid fan (I'll buy the next Tori Amos CD).

Lastly, this thread was just to say HOW MUCH faster my PC is than my 1.5 year old TiBook 400, but how the Mac OS is better in every way (in my opinion), but that the PC rules in speed and value for the money. The mac doesn't have a long way to go to be the technology and value and market leader now.... like I said, the tables are turning for Apple! Just give it a couple years for hardware to be awesome, games to be out at the same time, and oh man...... who wouldn't get a mac?


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## Annihilatus (Sep 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by solrac _
> *Annhilatus, you are acting like a troll. At first you had clear arguments and demanded facts and numbers. But then you just end up saying that Windows is the best OS ever and that EVERYONE who installs Linux regrets it?*



I never said everyone who installs linux regrets it. I said that everyone I know that installs Linux regrets it. There's a difference.



> *Third, you say windows is super organized, with the running programs in the task bar, services in the tray, programs in the start menu, and complete directory control through DOS. Well Mac OS X has running programs in the dock, and all the programs available in the Applications Folder (which can also be in the dock), and a full UNIX command line which makes DOS look like a child's toy.*



The thing about the dock is that it doesn't show you what programs are running only, it has shortcuts to programs as well as anything that's currently running. That's nowhere near as organized as Windows that only has what's running on its taskbar. As for Unix's command line and Dos looking like a child's toy... well a lot of people I know enjoyed Dos and especially loved how easy it was to learn and employ. The command prompt allows power users to do certain tasks in a quicker and easier way, so does Unix's. There's no way of comparing the two, it's all a matter of preference. Either way though, Dos is a lot easier to use and learn than Unix is.



> *But those are just superficial UI elements. What about unistalling programs? In Windows, Can you remove Windows Media Player? No. It's not available in Add / Remove Programs and to try and manually delete it gives you a permission denied error.*



Why would you really want to delete Windows Media Player though? That's the biggest question. It's a program that you don't have to use that allows you to view web content, DivX (with the codec) and listen to MP3's. It's basically there with Windows once you install it. If you prefer using something else for any of the aforementioned tasks, install something else. It's not difficult. I mentioned in an earlier post though that Microsoft, as much as possible, makes its OS to add features with each new version whereas some would argue that it would be better to make it more secure. WMP adds a lot of features, as does IE, OE and MSN Messenger. Sure it would be great to uninstall it, but there's a bigger advantage to them being there. I work at a tech support place where people suddenly feel they need to be connected to the Internet. They call in and say 'I'd like an account'. If MS didn't put all that it does in its OS, we would have to send those people a CD and have them install software. However, since IE and OE are already there, we can set up their browsing and email within minutes.



> *When you try to uninstall a program in Windows you may get a warning saying "remove shared components? This may break other applications." So you of course click NO, and now you can never fully un-install something.*



Wow you really don't read what the windows say do you? The remove shared components window comes up ONLY if shared components are safe to remove. It'll say something to the extent of 'windows has detected that the following shared components are no longer used by the system.' Removing them is safe.



> *Installing a program on Mac OS X is as simple as "Drag this folder to your hard drive". To uninstall it, drag it to the trash. Makes Windows seem ridiculously complicated. I don't even know why they make installer programs for Mac OS X any more...*



That would TECHNICALLY be true but it doesn't always work that way the same as Windows TECHNICALLY would have a great uninstaller that removes ALL of the program's entries even though it doesn't do that. New programs for Windows, when they are installed, actually allow you to uninstall everything including registry entries. Any program made by Microsoft for instance, when you remove it, it really does remove everything from the system. Technically, it is quite simple. On Mac OS's side, be it 9 or X, very often a person will drag a folder into the trash and it won't want to delete all of the contents. No matter what you do, it'll constantly say that it cannot delete one or more of the files in there. In my opinion, Windows' uninstaller is technically superior in that it allows you to remove everything, even certain things you didn't know existed (registry entries). Mac OS', especially in the case of OS 9, allows you to remove the program but sometimes there were extensions installed with the program nd those don't get removed at all. Both OS' have issues with this but MS' is getting better (except in the case of Mozilla or Netscape where uninstalling the browser removes absolutely nothing).



> *And also, what you say about game developers making no money on mac is false. Of course, all games should be developed for PC since there is the larger customer base, but Apple has MILLIONS of gamers, too, and to spend the effort to release a mac version can ONLY help, not hurt, unless it's a company on a shoestring budget. It's only a matter of time until 90% of games come out on PC and Mac at the same time.*



Use ratios like I did because I don't think you even thoroughly read my post. I said that if 10% of all PC users decided to buy a game, then there would be a huge number of sales. But if 10% of all Mac users decided to buy a game, the sales wouldn't be sufficient enough to warrant the release. Either way though, Apple users including yourself stress that the Mac is a productive unit. For 4000$, you're not buying a gaming machine but something that will produce your music or video. If you consider that the majority of people who buy Macs want a productive machine since that's what it's considered to be, you would immediately realize that there are few gamers out there on the Mac and that's why a lot of companies simply don't give a crap if Mac users can play games or not.



> *If I could hear all the tracks on the CD for free at a low bit rate, and I LOVED 5 of the songs only, I would sure as hell pay $5 for them, at a good bitrate, with no errors, and correct ID3 tags, instead of waste time looking for them. So would millions of other consumers. But the RIAA is too dumb and evil and greedy and hateful to see this and so screw it. I don't even buy CDs anymore unless I'm a rabid fan (I'll buy the next Tori Amos CD).*



There are some artists people definitely want to support and to say the least, Tori Amos usually releases albums that are consistently incredible. In the end, when you buy an Amos CD, you can expect the majority of it to be quite good. That's not true of artists like Vanessa Carlton or Avril Lavigne (whom I absolutely despise). That's not true of the majority of rockers, especially of rappers. The 1$ per song idea is actually quite a good one and frankly, if music companies released a music service in which favored songs can be downloaded from a central server at 1$ a piece, I'd go for it. It'll never happen though because these companies are greedy and much like most of the corporations in the United States, they want to suck as much out of you as possible.



> *Lastly, this thread was just to say HOW MUCH faster my PC is than my 1.5 year old TiBook 400, but how the Mac OS is better in every way (in my opinion), but that the PC rules in speed and value for the money. The mac doesn't have a long way to go to be the technology and value and market leader now.... like I said, the tables are turning for Apple! Just give it a couple years for hardware to be awesome, games to be out at the same time, and oh man...... who wouldn't get a mac? *



I was considering a Mac for a very long time and in the end I decided it was a bad purchase simply because it has an interface I would never be able to get used to. The price that you pay on top of it all, for a machine that you KNOW will not be upgradeable is ridiculous. When I bought my first PC, I made the mistake of buying one that couldn't even add ISA cards into it (PS/1 by IBM in 1991). From that point on, I bought a 386/16 and upgraded it nonstop since then. Basically, what I'm using now is simply the same 386/16 that has been upgraded over and over. Did I ever break the bank? No. Do I have a machine now that's more powerful than any Mac? Yes.

Andre


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## BBenve (Sep 3, 2002)

"The thing about the dock is that it doesn't show you what programs are running only, it has shortcuts to programs as well as anything that's currently running. That's nowhere near as organized as Windows that only has what's running on its taskbar. "


Remove all the alias from the dock...pu them in the desktop...and voila !!!!1 is that hard??? or your IQW is just to high to understan how the dock works?

"Why would you really want to delete Windows Media Player though?"

To get M$ cr@p out and get a better media player...the world is free...why shouldn't i be able to save disk space and delete a media player i don't use or like?

"Both OS' have issues with this but MS' is getting better"
And why you say Mac is getting worse??


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## uoba (Sep 3, 2002)

I thought that black arrow there in the dock signifies which app is running, or am I the only one with this feature


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## BBenve (Sep 3, 2002)

No you re not alone  he only means that in Windows ONLY active task show in the task bar...while OS X shows active aand inactive tast on the dock (the triangle is for active ones)...he says this is confusing .,.....go figure


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## plastic (Sep 3, 2002)

Gee... this is not going to stop... ever...

I maintain that I still love my Mac. No matter what... ha ha ha...


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## uoba (Sep 3, 2002)

Good enough for me! Anyway, I can't stand that XP task bar thing (I am qualified in saying this since I use XP as well, no flame please, jus' an opinion  )


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## Annihilatus (Sep 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by BBenve _
> *Remove all the alias from the dock...pu them in the desktop...and voila !!!!1 is that hard??? or your IQW is just to high to understan how the dock works?*



What a surprise. You're flaming to defend your platform.

Andre


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## edX (Sep 3, 2002)

this 'discussion' is over. 

BBenve - perhaps you missed the part a short while ago where i asked people to stop questioning each others intelligence.

solrac, maybe you missed the part about mentioning warez and the clients (this includes networks) used to obtain it. 

Annihilatus - i hope you come to this site for some other reason than to defend the windows/pc platform. you clearly state you don't own a mac and now have no intentions of getting one. please think about what possible benefit you reeive from your participation here. We don't really need platform wars here. they always seem to end like this one. and this site is meant to be a place where mac users can converse with each other about their macs, not argue with pc users about the pros and cons of the platforms and hardware. there are plenty of other sites out there that encourage this kind of 'discussion'.


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