# Lets get together some arguments why MAC is better than PeeCee!!!



## MACLOVA (Dec 29, 2001)

At the school I go to we all use Windowze and it is just ****ing bad. i am practically the only person that uses MAC in a crowd of 500 people!!! They always argue PeeCees are sooo much better because they have more software and... and... and... (they don't know what to say)... um... MACS SUCK!!!
I reply in terror: But its so much easier and user-friendly!!! And they go back ............

AND THE WHOLE STORY CONTINUES... NOW I WANT TO COME WITH SOME NEW FRESH ARGUMENTS, JOKES, ETC.

PLEEEEEEEEEEEEZ   JUST CONTRIBUTE UR JOKE OR COMPARISON ETC.


PLEEEEEEEEEEEEZ!!!!


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## edX (Dec 29, 2001)

ask them how many of all those countless amounts of software do they actually own. i am sure you can show them that there is a mac version or mac equivilent of almost all of them except games. and  if the bought a computer just to play games on, they are really stupid. even a playstation2 is cheaper than a good gaming computer and the grahics are better and faster. if you want a computer you buy a mac, if you want a game station there are several good ones to choose from. hell, my super nintendo plays better than most computers. 

of course i don't really want everybody to run out and start buying macs anymore.  let em live in their whitebread world. when you know the truth you don't really need to convince anybody else. just smile and feel the inner peace that goes with true knowing.  maybe someday they will share our heaven, but until then nobody but M$ is going to force anything on them. 

of course there is that less viruses arguement. remember that fear is one of their great motivators.


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## rdhazrd (Dec 29, 2001)

One thing I like to do in that type of situation is ask a question. If the is so bad why did Bill Gates steal the OS? If they argue that you are full of it, offer to lend them your copy of Pirates of Silicon Valley. You do have a copy, right? And another one to ask, if they suck so bad, why don't they have the learn your computer "Video Proffesor" CD's for Mac? They will most like reply with "cuz they suck". Then you can let them know it's because they are to easy to use to have to watch a video. Plus I've called the 800 # and asked them why. They couldn't tell me.


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## MACLOVA (Dec 29, 2001)

COOL


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## ~~NeYo~~ (Dec 29, 2001)

Yeah, i liked that Film, it was good... and Nice Eye Opener... I Just feel Sorry For Xerox! If only They knew...! 
Did Apple Really Have them F**k off Food Fights?! hehe!
Is that Film Available 2 buy though?
... i only See it on Sky Digi here in tha Uk... But I'd like a copy of it! 
I Bet Its Never Come 2 DVD, has it?!
Anyway... Holla Back!

NeYo


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## rdhazrd (Dec 29, 2001)

Yes the food fight is true! The one I have is on VCD, it's an offical copy not a burnt one. Try looking for it on ebay. As for Xerox, they knew, just too stupid. Just like Steve was. Don't get me wrong, I love what Steve has done, but that was one chance he never should have taken. Of course it would have happened sooner or later.


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## buggs1a (Dec 29, 2001)

pc is much better for games then consoles. upgradable. some games not on console so you have it on pc. most games not on mac. 
all my games not on console so i play them on pc. mac is not for gameing for me cus they aint there and won't ever be. so i use mac if ever for other stuff like audio and burning cd's at times. mostly i use win xp and games.


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## MACLOVA (Dec 29, 2001)

THATS NOT AN ARGUMENT I CAN ARGUE WITH MY FRIENDS ABOUT!


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## serpicolugnut (Dec 29, 2001)

In my experience, you can't argue something like that with people who have never known anything else. The only way to convince them is to show them. 

Case in point...

I work at an office that uses only Dell (crap) PC's. About 40% of the designers there use Macs at home. The other 60% are PC oriented, and haven't ever touched a Mac. 

When I got my PowerBook G4, I brought it in to work one day and showed it off. The PC folk had their jaws on the floor. They had never seen a laptop so well designed, so sleek, so light, so powerful. Two designers converted from PCs to Macs. One bought a new G4, another bought an iBook. Both are very happy with their decision.

So, don't waste your time trying to convert them with the age old Mac v. PC argument. The best way to do it is by showing them what the Mac can do and let them make up their own mind.


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## rdhazrd (Dec 29, 2001)

I have to agree with part of that last post. Another thing to ask is how much time they have spent on both platforms. Unless there is a fair amount of time on both they are not able to make a compairison.


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## MACLOVA (Dec 29, 2001)

ALL OF YOU THANK YOU!!!


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## AdmiralAK (Dec 29, 2001)

lol one thing I've learned in high school is that hardcore PC users are as good as trolls.  If you ignore them they go away cause in the end when they see the blue screens o death they realize that what they use stinks but wont admit to it lol.


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## MACLOVA (Dec 29, 2001)

Hey guys AdmiralAK replied to my thread. Wow the legendary AdmiralAk!!!!! Replyed to my thread!!! WOW

AK AK AK AK AK AK AK AK AK AK AK AK AK AK AK AK AK AK AK !!!!!!!!!


THANKS!!!


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## FrgMstr (Dec 29, 2001)

anything NT based doesnt have a blue screen of death 

Seriously my XP comp aint been rebooted in 2 months and it hasnt crashed once.


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## MACLOVA (Dec 29, 2001)

I HATE XP, I HATE M$ AND I HATE um... um... (dunno )


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## AdmiralAK (Dec 29, 2001)

my god...
eveyrone knows me  

well I am using XP under VPC at the moment trying to fix a few things.  No blue screens of death...just some frustration  lol


Admiral


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## zaza (Dec 29, 2001)

4 sure. My OmetraPc is only a case and they have put the maker in prison.


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## Dradts (Dec 29, 2001)

> _Originally posted by FrgMstr _
> *anything NT based doesnt have a blue screen of death
> 
> Seriously my XP comp aint been rebooted in 2 months and it hasnt crashed once. *



actually there are blue screens in nt based windoze systems. they just won't appear too often.
mostly, windoze nt just freezes, or restarts tha peecee.


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## ulrik (Dec 29, 2001)

Well, considering AdmiralAKs post count, it is unlikely that he doesn't reply to any thread opened here  

Just kidding, AdmiralAK


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## mindbend (Dec 29, 2001)

Below are some personal notes I've gathered in my ongoing attempt to explain to the world why Apple leads the pack in terms of innovation, design and engineering. With a scant 3-6% market share, they have somehow managed to lead the industry on many levels of innovation and creativity. They implemented Firewire/USB--removed floppy disks and set a new design standard all in one fell swoop (iMac). The PC world stumbled on themselves to duplicate that effort. Unreal. There's a reason the Mac has been around for so long with really very little fundamental change. It's because they nailed it. They just plain nailed it.

QuickTime	vs. WMP/AVI	
Apple was first to lead the way with a software video rendering technology. Microsoft followed suit, of course, literally stealing code (code comments intact!) to get up and running. QuickTime was recently chosen by ISO to be the choice for Mpeg-4 delivery.

Mouse		
Not invented by Apple, but they were the first to take that bold step publicly. The single button legacy still haunts them, but the intial rigorous standards for the "Human Interface Guidelines" as published by Apple still hold strong to this day.

Mac OS	vs. Windows	
As A GUI, not invented by either company, but without question popularized by Mac OS. Also, Apple did it correctly right out of the gate, whereas Windows took several incarnations to even come close. Ironically, Bill Gates was the Mac OS's biggest fan, looking for software development deals for the platform and urging Apple to consider hardware alignments with IBM. He was right.

Applescript	vs. Visual Basic	
Both are excellent ways to enhance the interface experience. I don't know which came first or which is more powerful. As a non-programmer, Visual Basic sounds easier to deal with though. A visual studio for Applescript is due out soon, so that may change things.

Game Sprockets	vs. DirectX	
From what I saw of the few examples showing Apple's proprietary 3D technology (QuickDraw 3D), it was extremely fast even on sucky machines. Unfortunately, it never caught on. Neither did the Game Sprockets in general. Apple's poor support and irreverance for the gaming community killed it. DirectX went on to become a near standard and delivers excellent performance and quality.

Newton		
Apple was way ahead on this one, and I mean WAY ahead. So far ahead, it took other companies a couple of years to catch up. Unfortunately, Apple was a little too ahead of even themselves. The handwriting recognition was a joke. Memory prices at the time were outrageous. They were expensive and bulky by comparison. It eventually died, but virtually all Palm Pilot variations are direct ripoffs in design and software.

Digital Camera		
Apple was way ahead on this one also. Once again, they were a little too far ahead. Nobody else had a digital camera anywhere near $1000. Apple's was just under that price, but it was not suitable for professional work at that time. Unfortunately, color inkjets were still expensive and of lower quality.  It also preceded the internet revolution, so it coudn't find a home in that environment. It eventually died, but was a sign of what was to come in the industry.

FireWire		
The audacity and disproportionate power of Apple to develop their own technology and have enough oomph to force it on the PC market indirectly through peripheral technology is amazing.

USB		
See FireWire notes. PC manufacturers should be ashamed for being so out of touch.

HyperCard	vs. PowerPoint	
HyperCard existed in the mid-eighties and included the ability to script actions as well as use simple drag and drop graphics and animations. Almost as easy as PowerPoint and almost as powerful as Director, years before either.

Pippin	vs. X Box	
Apple was yet again psychic, this time predicting the relationship of computer to game console. And once again they were years ahead of the game and also once again they were just a little too early. Apple made a PowerPC-based game console that sold only in Japan as a test. It flopped. Apple should have known better as someone on their campus (Jobs?) coined the "killer app" phrase. Pippen had no killer app (game). It did include a CD-ROM drive, another early adopter of this format. Microsoft instead waited patiently and delivered  a killer game box. Somehow, their "wait and see" approach keeps working. Remember the internet?

TrueType vs. GX	OpenType	
I'll call this one a wash, but once again point out that Apple was WAY ahead of the game on this issue of more robust fonts. GX allowed ligatures and most of the other subset advantages of OpenType. Unfortunately, it was clumsy to implement (required a GX Extension I believe) and eventually died. Years later, Microsoft and Adobe teamed up and created OpenType, which has excellent promise, but as-of-yet unseen acceptance. If OpenType catches on, it will be the bomb.

iMovie		
It doesn't get any easier to make your own movies. Microsoft, and everyone else for that matter, have yet to catch up in creating a simple, easy to use, but professional quality video editing solution. (Edit: XP finally delivered with what looks to be a decent solution, albeit three years later) Apple is one of the only companies that takes the small, simple stuff very seriously. Other companies don't seem to give attention to such things.

iMac		
All the in-house research and focus groups determined that the iMac had no hope. A computer with no floppy disk? Are you crazy? A built-in monitor? Are you crazy? Yes, Steve Jobs is crazy. Four million iMacs later it is the best selling computer model in history (including PC machines).

The Cube		
Now this thing is just fucking cool as hell. Too bad it was overpriced, unexpandable and had no market. But still
Cinema Display		Jut another reminder that Apple is in the hardware business. And wow, what another nice piece of hardware. And the balls to charge $4,000 for it.

Wireless Networking		
Yeah, it's called Airport. It's been around a coupl eof years now. Microsoft and others just now catching up. I can't say that Apple invented wireless networking, but they once again brought it to the masses, put it in all their machines, made it easy and affordable and it works great.

iDVD	(don't know name of XP software)	
And with iDVD2 just around the corner, it gets even more amazing. We're talking drag and drop DVD authoring that rivals some prefessional attempts. Unbelievable.

OS-level CD burning		
While not perfect (single session burns only), it's darned convenient, drag and drop, super easy. Surprise, surprise--XP's ads just now claiming the same feature.

iPod		
Nothing completely innovative, but a good clean design and interface with iTunes make this a winner. Also, the Firewire connection points out why all other USB solutions are a total joke in comparison.


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## voice- (Dec 29, 2001)

It'll be impossible if they have expensive PCs...I used to be one of them, and my PC had cost me so much I was afraid to find I had wasted my money.

On my 18th reinstall of Windows 98 thou, I was fed up, and bought a G4 QuickSilver...can't say I regret


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## rdhazrd (Dec 29, 2001)

mindbend you made some good points, but you did miss a few.
As you all know the Megahertz myth, but it doesn't pay to get in to that with windows users. Look at any PPC proccessor and compare it to any Pentium, (or any "PC" proccessor for that matter) and look at heat and power consumption of both, hmmm looky there, mac is lower in both areas. Now you mentioned gaming machines. Do you know that the game cube uses a proccessor based very VERY close to the G3, in fact it is an IBM PPC. It runs at 485Mhz, and has ATI graphics. It's kinda like a Mac you connect to your TV. Anyway, we may never "win" this fight in window users minds, but at least we can sit down in front of our Macs at night and smile.


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## MACLOVA (Dec 30, 2001)

SOME AWSOME COMMENTS...



THANKS


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## ulrik (Dec 30, 2001)

Of anyone of them has a P4, point a finger on him, say "FXCH now needs one processor cycle on your processor!" and start laughing your ass off. You maybe don't get the joke, he maybe not, but anybody who ever programmed in Assembler WILL get it  I actually made me a t-shirt with it.



Ah, how I love the flat registry on my G4  (damn, the AMD has one also...)


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## FrgMstr (Dec 30, 2001)

Guys, you can go on all you want about PPC v X86. The fact of the matter is PPC losses and losses badlly, come on i dare anyone of you to show me a good set of benches like i posted up eaarlier where the best MAC proc beats the best intel and AMD procs. Come on.

M8 i think you will find that nearly everything important in the mac was actually intel and other PC hardware

I.E.  PCI, AGP, IDE, USB SDRAM soon to be DDR again after pcs have had it for ages. I mean i dont know what you lot do with that whole 1.1Gbits/s of mem bandwitdth you lot have on those super computers youre all running, give me a brake. Most of you seem to be miny versions of steve jobs.

Come on im waiting for a good review as mentioned above, bet i dont get it,


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## FrgMstr (Dec 30, 2001)

ohh and the bit about OS level CD burning XPs Cd burning actually works out the box, something you X users couldnt say, oh how is that amazing OS can you play DVDs yet  I hope so


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## ulrik (Dec 30, 2001)

OK, you wanted it:

Photoshop

Final Cut Pro
(compared to DV software on the PC)

Maya 3.5

They all have beaten the PC BADLY. And there are more Apps, Fireworks, for example, Illustrator. As soon as the Altivec kicks in, goodbye P4, goodbye AMD!

And if you argue that, I can't help...

Oh, and our OS 9 had DVD support years before XP 
Same goes for native CD burning.

Man, get informed before posting such crap!


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## FrgMstr (Dec 30, 2001)

Apple have even signed up AMDs Hypertransport. The only reason AMD let apple into the consortium is cos its free advertising. Once jobs opens his mouth about HT the whole world especially most mac users will think its the best thing since sliced bread.


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## FrgMstr (Dec 30, 2001)

I didnt mention OS9, and i said i want some links to reviews not some MAC user saying it wins in this this and this, are you steve jobs by anychance.

Come on if youre so sure show me some comparisons. It aint gonna happen.


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## ulrik (Dec 30, 2001)

Oh, I forgot...Microsoft never signed a contract about native Firewire support in XP  Come on, everybody is borrowing some technology from other from time to time! AMD invented a good thing, why should they wait for Motorola to do it also! The G4 was the first consumer computer to have SIMD support with the Altivec, BEFORE the PIII and P4 got SIMD...from IBM


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## ulrik (Dec 30, 2001)

You are seriously telling me that Photoshop is faster on a PC?

OK, I'm finished with this guy, he is just nuts...


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## FrgMstr (Dec 30, 2001)

If you think a G4 is gonna beat an Athlon XP at Maya, Final Cut Pro and Photoshop  you are seriously mistaken and need to get out and use a real computer before you pass judgement.


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## FrgMstr (Dec 30, 2001)

YES cant you understand english, besides maybe a couple of filters out of hundreds YES.

You can be finished all you want cos youll lose, you will never find any proof to the contrary.


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## ulrik (Dec 30, 2001)

q.e.d.


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## FrgMstr (Dec 30, 2001)

Is that proof?


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## ulrik (Dec 30, 2001)

Why should I search? Everything I present you here would be "baised" in your opinion! I have benchmarks where the G4 867 stomps a 2Ghz P4 in Photoshop in about 18% speed advantage....and not in filters! In stuff you actually NEED, like resizing, changing color modes etc.

I won't go on here. Go to your PC. Be happy! Dream on! Fly around!

Seriously, let's leave the flaming behind for a second:

I admit, that on the overall speed, the Macs, at the moment, are no longer the top! Jobs also realized this, that's why he is pushing towards the G5. He admitted that Apple stayed to long with the G4. There ARE things where a dual Athlon XP is faster than a Dual G4 800. As there are things where a single P4 is faster than a Dual Athlon XP. Or a single G4 is faster than a Dual P4. You get the idea. Processors have disadvantages. For example the Integer Unit on the Athlon. That's why nearly no sane person uses an Athlon as a server (which has to execute MANY integer operations).
I am not dumb, I am not saying that the G4 is faster than the Athlon XP. BUT I am saying that it is faster on Apps which are written for the Altivec engine. There are enough benchmarks of different sources, both Mac guys and PC guys, which show this. It is an aged processor, and it is time that it is replaced. But it still has it's good points, Altivec beeing one of them.


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## FrgMstr (Dec 30, 2001)

M8 I agree with the stuff that you actuall y need like resize and rotate, but again the Athlon XP rocks at that compared to G4. stop comparing P4 itll be a contender in Jan with tnext revision.

The only comparisons youll get are against P4s( from the apple website i might add) because compared to an Athlon it would get battered, everyone knows that. The Athlon Batters the P4, let alone the G4.

All i want is a full on review like the one i presented earlier with multiple apps to show of the best X86 and PPC. I see everyone going on about PPC v X86 but now when i ask for comprehensive proof no one bringing it.

I know its unfair to be just picking on you but maybe some others will have something later, though i very much doubt it.


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## ulrik (Dec 30, 2001)

Read my above post.

I am NOT saying the G4 is better! Period. I AM insisting on the fact that Altivec apps are faster. But well, to what SHOULD we compare? The top processors? Or the same megahertz count? Or the price tag? Or what? 

To me, a computer is more than CPU performance. You have to admit that Apple is in front of other companies when it comes to "inventions". I know it's the wrong word, but I don't know the correct english term.

Come on, Apple managed it to bring DVD-burning to affordable workstations! Not even DeLL managed that. Apple supports Airport since years. You know, these are things which matter to me. 

If I think about, i can't believe that I actually fought a G4 agains PC fight on the processor level. It is dumb. PC and Macs are so different from their philosophy, it is not wise to compare them in any performance related way. "Now", you might think, "he quietly agrees that PCs are faster". No. I don't. For example, there are things which take longer on a PC. Not because the CPU is slower. Because the OS doesn't offer me the way to do it as easy as on a Mac! The same might be true in the other direction. 
My point is, let's not compare them. There is a reason why you have no Mac. Because you don't like it. Because the important facts for you are the advantages of the PCs. I like the Macs because of the advantages they have.
I used PCs since I was six. Until two years ago. I worked with a Mac for two weeks and then ordered one. Now, the only PC in my house is a Linux box running a house internal Mail server. You see, I found my favourite system. At the same point, if I would have been a game freak, I would have never changed to a Mac! As most graphic designers would NEVER change to PC.
This all doesn't have to do anything with processor speed. It is related to wether you like the whole package (Mac or PC) or not. 
It's a bit like cars! There are people paying a hundred thousand dollars for a BMW i745 because they want all it's luxury stuff. At the same time, others pay the same amount for a 911 Porsche or a Viper. The first person wants luxury, the second wants a fast sports car. Would you say the Porsche is better than the BMW because it has a better acceleartion? Becaus you can get faster from A to B? 

Hope you get my point...


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## edX (Dec 30, 2001)

and if we brought you this proof, stacked to the ceiling, what would you do? 

buy a mac? apologize? shut up? go away? make new friends with macs so you can see how they really work?

you know my little imac will never beat your high powered pc's at any kind of speed test. my chevy astro is not likely to win the daytona. but both of them do what i need them to. both of them suit me and my lifestyle. my astro will do better than the speed limit. my imac will put a web page in front of me almost as soon as i click the link. who cares about an nth of a second? 
if you had the fastest car made, you would probably kill yourself in a short time. if you need to have the biggest, fastest computer so you can walk around and tell both of your friends and all your enemies that you have the biggest, fastest computer - you're already dead. life is going on without you. i just wonder where you're putting all those seconds you're saving in a day? 

i like my imac wheather you or anybody else does. of course the fact that it is the single highest selling computer model of all time might mean there are quite a few people who like it as well. if you've got a computer you like, then good for you. I personally hope people keep buying lots of intel products because intel contributes huge sums of money to buy up and preserve open coastal lands in the sf bay area. please, go buy each bigger and faster computer as soon as they become available so i will have beautiful places to be when i'm not at my computer. so go tell both your friends to buy them as well. then you will all be the same and feel good about each other. me, i've been feeling good about myself and owning a mac since long before any of my friends owned any kind of computer. and i feel even better knowing that i have an imac and you have the biggest fastest computer. 

huh, you do own one of the fastest computers don't you?


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## FrgMstr (Dec 30, 2001)

Yes i see what you are saying, and as i said my posts really werent aimed at a person such as yourself. You obviously look at things objectively. My posts are aimed at the people who sit here and go on and on about X86 vs PPC.

You prefer MACs i respect that. Like i said id have one too if i could afford both but i cant at the moment.


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## FrgMstr (Dec 30, 2001)

ED

Now that is one of the replies i was expecting. you all sit here going on about PPC superiority and then when someone questions the statements and asks for proof of said statements you come out with something like your last post, it makes me laugh man. All i want is proof from all the big mouths on this forum.

PS i dont buy Intel, Ever

atleast i know you aint living in some nice costal area cos of me


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## ulrik (Dec 30, 2001)

FrgMstr, I have Benchmarks which back me up. The funny thing about benchmarks is, if they are done by Mac people, the Macs beat the PCs in mentioned Apps by far! If they are done by neutral people, the Macs beat the PCs in some areas where at the same time the PCs are superior on others. If they are done by Intel or AMD, the PCs processors beat the Mac and the other leading PC processor by far.

You know, benchmarks are most often baised. I am happy that my Mac can make MPEG 2 encoding in realtime since I love making my own DVDs (as I just converted my top-quality Lord of the Rings screener to a DVD). For me, I haven't seen a PC doing this. I also haven't seen a benchmark where the PC beats the new Quicksilver in this point. You have seen them. I believe you, but do I believe the benchmark? To me, it just doesn't matter. My opinion is that there still are things where the Altivec Engine boosts the aged G4 into the same levels or sometimes even above the top AMD or P4 processors. I can back this up with some benchmarks. Most of them from Mac websites or magazines, but also some done by neutral magazines. 
Again, to me, it doesn't matter. I don't care which of those benchmarks is right or wrong.
I like the philosophy of the Mac, I LOVE the OS (both 9 and X), I love the periphals available, I love "toys" like the iPod, I love software like iTunes. 

Let us agree that comparing these systems is stupid, regardless on whatever level you compare them, price, performance, style, OS, apps...whatever.

I remember that a similar thing was going on when Linux got more and more popular. Linux freaks where showing off their old 486 processors beating a Pentium 90 at some tasks etc. Now, everybody knows that the idea behind Linux and Windows is so different, that a comparison is plainly stupid. Like comparing a 100K$ truck tossing some thousand kilos of stuff and a 100K$ Porsche...and I think people have to realize that the same is true for PCs and Macs. 

I, for one, HATED it when Jobs pitted the Dual 800 against a P4 on the last keynote. This is exactly the fuel this year old flame war doesn't need.


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## FrgMstr (Dec 30, 2001)

Ulrik

Post the benchmark links, im interested too see them, im not bothered who wrote them, i just want to see them. 

The world would be a boring place without choice and i agree with alot of what you say.


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## ulrik (Dec 30, 2001)

OK, let's go:

Here is one where a P4 2 Ghz is pitted against my G4 867 and the outcome is more than unclear. The P4 wins most tasks, but the G4 beats it with around 60% in color reduction. To me, a rather pointless benchmark, since a P4 2Ghz should not be compared to a 867 but to a Dual 800 IF YOU COMPARE THEM (you know my opinion about this). There the outcome, if you ask me and if you look at the numbers, would be clear and the price tag would be the same (IIRC the P4 2Ghz is quite expensive, with a good casing, a GeForce 2 MX, a DVD-Burner, a 60 Gig HDD, Firewire etc. etc. you should be close to the Dual 800).

http://www.techtv.com/print/story/0,23102,3339307,00.html

A very good read is this. The architecture of the P4, a bit of the AMD and the G4 are compared, showing the big points of the G4 and P4 and also the drawbacks! A GREAT ARTICLE, but not easy to understand. After this, you will understand my "FXCH is no longer free" joke. After this, you will see that Intel carries around 10 year old technology...the processor stack!

http://www.arstechnica.com/cpu/01q2/p4andg4e/p4andg4e-1.html

Actually, I don't have a site for the AMD against G4. I have some magazines which compare them, and to P4s. My "feeling" towards the Athlon XP is that it simply has the architecture the Mac community is waiting for...the G5. But still, I am proud that the G4 can hold up to the Athlon XP and, in some cases, beat it. Again, the question is, which processors do you compare? On the PC side, you compare similar Mhz counts, but on the crossplatform benchmark? Same Mhz counts? Apple wins due to the shorter pipeline. Then again, at the same time Sun would completely stomp Apple due to the higher FSB compared with the shorter pipeline. Compare the same price tag? Not possible, since Macs are prices as a package. Compare the top processors? Also not possible, since Apple doesn't release the fastest processors they have due to marketing...sure they have the Apollo G4 at Ghz counts ready for the fact that the G5 AGAIN is not finished...and they Apollo G4 will be released in January, believe me, sadly again with 133 Mhz FSB...the RAM then can no longer feed the processor fast enough...Apple knows this, and that's why they can't wait to release the G5...

This is what I have to post here, the rest are magazin benchmarks...


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## MACLOVA (Dec 31, 2001)

if anyone thinks MHz metters big time then visit this site and look at the Quicktime Movie!!!! 

http://www.apple.com/g4/myth 

cheers and .... GAH!!


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## FrgMstr (Dec 31, 2001)

if i thought mhz mattered or ghz i should say, then id own a P4 but i dont thats why i own an Athlon XP  

ive posted a new thread with a lot of comprehensive cross platform benches take a look.


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## StarScream (Jan 1, 2002)

I dont want that all The farm boys who use Windows becomes a Apple user, There all to stupid for it..

My XP with Mac users are that they all have a special intrest in Arts and they have all Artistic Jobs.. Those windows users are all Stupid and they dont know nothing.


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## FrgMstr (Jan 1, 2002)

OK, i didnt understand a word you said there m8, think you need to brush up on your english.

For your info though im a Computer Science student with an IQ of 149 so i dont really think im that much of a stupid Windows user(That is what you were trying to say wasnt it). You really shouldnt generalise and assume so much m8. Especially when you cant put it across properly either.


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## FrgMstr (Jan 1, 2002)

ah i get it now, the ones who have artistic jobs are the clever ones in life, not the ones involved in Scientific and mathematical research etc. I get ya makes sense, i can imagine your opinion is taken very seriously on these boards. LMAO

No offence to any artist here, just making my point.


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## StarScream (Jan 1, 2002)

Excuse me for my English but it is a little rusty...

I live in Holand you see....


I still Hate windows !!


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## ulrik (Jan 1, 2002)

Don't get me wrong, FrgMstr, but what is the reason that you actually participate on this forum. 

This is no offence, I just like to know.


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## FrgMstr (Jan 1, 2002)

Well, as i said im a Comp Science student, I really like Computers and find different platforms very interesting. I use a PC obviously, they are alot more flexible for what i do, i.e everything. When i slate something i do it based on facts not cos i prefer AMD, INTEL, MOT i dont own shares in them i have nothing to gain by slagging them off. I never knew macs existed until 3 years ago when a m8 of mine whos a Mac user told me about the G4, said it was super computer bla bla, i though how come ive been using PCs for so long if there is this magical supercomputer for a bit more money, once i investigated i soon discovered the "Steve taking a dump" theory i pointed out earlier. I was most impressed however with the G4's ability at RC5 encryption Cracking Altivec is wicked for that App, but then when i found that wasnt reflected in other stuff like SETI, OGR, PRIME etc i started to weight up the pros and cons of each platform and came to my own conclution that PC procs especially Athlon is far more powerful, it just is, this is of course partly due to competition.

But as i am more of a hard core user i tend to get more upset then the average forum user by people talking C**P i.e X86 v PPC

Im seriously thinking about getting a new Mac im just waiting for the next mac world onthe 7th i think. id really like to have a go at developing for the Mac and am even considering a cross platform filesharing type project for my CS degree next year.


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## b4tn (Jan 1, 2002)

I used Pc's for roughly 10 years before I bought my G4.  I like to compare the mac to the pc with my Mazda MX6 and my Honda Civic.  The mazda is very well engineered and a well refined car where the Civic is more for practicality parts are a dime a dozen and is more cheaply built.  Both however have draw backs and advantages over each other.  I like the mac because of its luxury refined feel You get in front of the keyboard and it just works.  Where as the pc (which is still a good computer)  seems thrown together and less refined but it is cheap to work on and parts are a dime a dozen.  I too am a IT student I also work for the Government as a systems Admin and helpdesk tech, so I work with win NT and 2000 all day everyday.  I think a lot of times some of the issues with windows requires you to be professional to fix where the Mac tends to be easier to fix.  But hands down I like computers not macs not PC's but computers.  So I will continue to play with and work on both.  I prefer the mac but that's just my humble opinion.  I think anyone who says mine is better than yours is a small minded fool.  They both have advantages and disadvantages.

Why cant we all just get along


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## ulrik (Jan 1, 2002)

Wow wow wow wow easy here, OK?

Comparing computers and cars is my part on this forum, OK?


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## StarScream (Jan 1, 2002)

I know that all of the important People in the IT buziness are using normal PC's, and i know that Windows NT is used by professionals.

But i can't stand the idear that Bill Gates  has made windows the standard
OS for whole the world..

There are many interesting operatings systems overthere. BUt i dislike Windows because its a unpersonal OS. It is a dead system it has no spirit .

The Mac OS becomes your buddy in live, while you work with it. Its like the Mac has his own personality. Thats why i fell in love with a Mac because it has a personality !


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## ulrik (Jan 1, 2002)

Amen


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## b4tn (Jan 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by StarScream _
> *
> The Mac OS becomes your buddy in live, while you work with it. Its like the Mac has his own personality. Thats why i fell in love with a Mac because it has a personality ! *



I think you hit that right on!


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## tagliatelle (Jan 1, 2002)

I have a Peugeot.


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## edX (Jan 1, 2002)

Well, Herve's new signature points towards my dislike of M$ which is synonomous with pc at this point (no offense linux folks - but in truth i have never knowingly met one linux user in person). 

when i bought my first mac back in the mid eighties, which looked just like my avatar, it held the promise of eveything good about windows today.  PC's still ran on dos and only a pro could make sense of them in a reasonable time. The mac looked destined to become the computer for the common man and the artistic. PC was going to run businesses. then Billy stole the code and changed history. most people go to jail or pay huge penalties for stuff like this. Billy became the richest man in the world. mac users became relegated to second class citizens. and bright people like frgmstr grow up not even knowing about the potential advantages of a mac because they've been led to believe that mac's are either a kid's computer or just for very specialized fields. they're too far gone not to defend the way they were raised.

on the other hand, i'm kinda glad apple didn't become the most popular computer. I still like not having to worry about every little virus and knowing that when i do meet a mac user, i have met someone very special from my perspective. not to mention, without pc users who would we have to amaze with all the nifty things our macs do that their computers don't?


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## ulrik (Jan 1, 2002)

You never met a Linux freak? Damn, you missed something buddy...

wait....I used to be a Linux freak till Win2K was released..............


Ever tried to understand console outputs if you are not familiar with Assembler? That's what it's like when you meet a Linux dude


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## FrgMstr (Jan 1, 2002)

With Respect to Bill Gates, I know many people dont like him, but to me the Man is a genius, to do what he has done in his life time and accomplish what he has done is a wonderfull thing.

I know many of you lot will not agree with what i say. I live in england and come under a severe battering for supporting Michael Schumacher because he is a German. I couldnt care a less that he is a German or that he use Heavy handed tactics, the man is still a genius in his field and should be respected no matter what for his accomplishments.

but thats just my opinion.


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## FrgMstr (Jan 1, 2002)

HeHe true Ulrik so true


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## ulrik (Jan 1, 2002)

Hmm...I like Michael, but I like Ralph Schumacher even more...maybe because I met him once at the Hockenheim Ring (it's close to where I live) and he was really nice to me even doing a bit small-talk with me 

Bill Gates is a genius, for sure. Microsoft is a good company. They know how to earn money, and that's what a company has to do. People don't have to like it. Seriously, I also dislike the way Microsoft sometimes earns it's money. I like Apple. Apple is brave enough to be revolutionary all the time! They have failed with it more than one. MORE THAN ONCE. The Cube beeing the latest error, but that's what the Mac community loves them for. 

Every company has a soul, and it's up to everyone of us if we like this "soul". I would never seriously say that a company is "bad". 

A company which earns money can't be bad, else, it would be bankrupt.
Microsoft is at the point where it soon (within the next five years) has to let go from it's OS. With "it's OS", I mean it's Win95/WinNT roadmap which still exists in the WinXP/WinXP Pro. They are still using "old" technology, updated to modern standards.

Apple, for example, dared to completely discontinue an OS architecture they used for nearly 20 years now (allthough the step from 68K to PowerPC was similar)...with all the problems which might arise by this. Micrsoft did a similar thing - allthough not that drastic - when they released a new driver architecture with Win2K. This could be the doom of Apple. They could go on like always. They could gain more influence, who knows.

I was in the PC community when Win95 was released. Most "professionals" claimed that this step, away from an existing OS (Windows 3.11) would be the death of Microsoft. 

We all know why we use Macs.


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## Matrix Agent (Jan 1, 2002)

I think that it really doesn't come down to the current state in the processor world.

A few yoers down the road, which instructin set would you rather be developing for: x86 or PPC?

I know that these are basically the oppisite doctrines in coding. Can PC's still maintain their speed lead (yes I will admit.) as the clock speeds climb higher and higher. x86 procs are already running very hot, will they have to back off of  higher speeds, or will they have some kind of new techincal advance. To my knowlege there are no P4 notebooks. Reason: Heat.

Right now  I know that if I was going to go for sheer speed I wouldn't buy a mac. Years down the road will that still be true?

Macs may be slower right now, but I feel like so far the PPC has been done the right way, and has not strayed from the proper path in  order to take advantage of a technologically dumb public. Possibly the PPC has more life in it because it runs with lower heat, gets more done per clock cycle, and has an (arguable) better advance instuction set.

With the itanium faltering, possibly the tables will be turning soon. The G5 looks like its going to be on a development fast track, and a possible (longshot) byout by Apple or IBM would put the PPC platform in good hands.

The future looks bright for the PPC can the same be said for x86?

I'm not trying to pursuade you to advocate PPC, I'm just asking for some info on x86 because no matter how much I try I'm obviously going to be skewed torwards the mac and PPC.


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## edX (Jan 1, 2002)

lol

ulrik - I've always just figured that they stay hidden in some super secret rooms at universities and people bring them their food. most don't require sleep and no one would understand their vocabulary if they did have contact with other humans. 

hmm, there may be some truth to that last one 

frgmstr - Hitler was a genius too. Genius alone is not a measure of respect. It is what you do with that genius and how you do it that counts. Bill Gates was once a hero. At one point in time, i'm guessing you were still wearing diapers or maybe just learning to ride your first bike, he was in a position to be someone truly great. But the day IBM knocked on his door and he said "come on in", he sold his soul. This is perhaps the single most thing i respect about Steve Jobs - win or lose, he kept his ideals. He didn't join forces with an evil monopoly and big brother mentality. he passed up an opportunity to be what Bill Gates is today. I don't know if he regrets it now or not. But i will love and respect him for doing what he did and staying true to his own visions for as long as he continues to do so. he is human. His is a genius i can feel comfortable with.   He has always been a long hair at heart.

This is a purely political viewpoint that i hold. M$ has become what IBM once was and i abhore what that is, as much today as i did 20 yrs ago.


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## JohnnyV (Jan 1, 2002)

WOW you guys have WAY to much free time on your hands HEH ; Frag master and everyone else just give up! The Mac is better at some things and PCs hold the edge in others. PERIOD. Hopefully this won't hold true in a few days tho


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## JohnnyV (Jan 1, 2002)

I strongly agree with ed on his last point


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## FrgMstr (Jan 2, 2002)

Ooh dont get me started on Hitler, the man was Masterful, with his ability he could have accomplised things that others could merely have dreamed of. Pity he was just an Evil B******.


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## AdmiralAK (Jan 2, 2002)

Hitler was a disgruntled artist lol 
My theory is that he god pushed to the edge when his stuff wasnt good enough lol -- but hey thats me --

as for linux freaks---dont know of any -- nut you guys all know a Newton freak...me


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## karavite (Jan 2, 2002)

Various methods of measuring the time on task and/or number of steps to achieve a task (GOMS, KLM...) show Macintosh superior to Windows - it often takes less clicks, menus, movements... to do the same thing on a mac. This can often blow the one button mouse argument out of the water if they give you that one.

You know what - screw them, just tell them you choose to drive an exotic sports car while they drive Chevys - it really is that simple. You have taste and are not satisfied with the products used by the uncouth masses.


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## MACLOVA (Jan 2, 2002)

5 pages of arguments... sweeeeeeeeeeeeet!!!!

THANK YOU... EVERYONE!!!!


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## karavite (Jan 2, 2002)

Off topic response to off topic comments:

I guess I should read these threads more closely. Hitler a genius? Give me a break, his own generals knew he was an idiot and thank God Hitler didn't let those guys run the show! 

The only amazing thing about Hitler is that such a loser did what he did. His talents as an artist were minimal. Hitler was a thug with a flair for PR. It doesn't take a genius to lie, cheat, murder, steal... even if it is on the biggest scale in history. WWII Germany is less about Hitler's brain and more about the German people as the biggest suckers in history. They bought what Hitler was selling and we (Russians, US, British - not France) paid the bill - with interest. 

Geniuses create something new and/or find connections that nobody else has thought of - what the hell is new about racism, killing and lies?


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## chevy (Jan 2, 2002)

Because what is n my Mac today will be on their PC within 1 or 2 years.... if they are lucky


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## FrgMstr (Jan 2, 2002)

M8 im not gonna sit and defend Hitler, but saying that he wasnt a Genius Mastermind is just stupid. He was evil but still a genius, no doubt about it.

Just a pity he didnt use his ability for the good of germany at the time.


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## FrgMstr (Jan 2, 2002)

Chevy, how can you say whats in your mac will be in my PC in afew years time. Thats the kind of comment i told Urik really gets to me, you mearly make yourself look foolish with such comments.

The PC has never been behind a Mac (Hardware related) apart from maybe before Bill did his dirty deeds with IBM.

Name one thing the Mac has had before the PC in the last 6 years. dont forget anything you come up with there will have been a PC manufacturer somewhere offering it way before. so go ahead.

This should be interesting.


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## JohnnyV (Jan 2, 2002)

okay Fragmaster (or should it be FagMaster? ). Three things come to mind while reading you last topic. Keep in mind that while Apple may not have invented these (with the exception of one) that Apple is the one that brought them to mainstream use. 

1. USB - Not Apple invented but Apple was the first company to put in all of their products across the board and brought it to mainstream use, while the PC companies only had it in one model or none at all.

2. Firewire - Apple invented tech. Every Mac has and had across the board before any PC had. Now it is the standard for Digital Video Cams and external hard drive (and slowly more and more things)

3. Airport - Again not and Apple invented idea, but was brought into wide use because of Apple. Apple again put wireless networking ablities across the board in all their products before any PC maker had, plus I believe that it wasn't and maybe still isn't supported by windoze w/o extra software/drivers while the Mac OS supports it out of box.

These are just a few that come to mind, there are more but I don't have the time to write right now, so maybe someone else will.


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## FrgMstr (Jan 2, 2002)

M8 i could have written those down for you in my original post, you are so predictable. If you think for one second you had those things in Macs before i could have gone out at any time months before and shoved it in My PC you are seriously mistaken and i mean seriously. 

sorry m8, if you can think of any others, id like to hear them. USB before PCs LMAO

i can think of a few things that the Mac platform wouldnt be very far without, hmm PCI, AGP, SDRAM etc.

no need to start insulting, it puts you across in a bad light.


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## FrgMstr (Jan 2, 2002)

Most people who have been bothered to read my post know that im not really interested in which platform is better, I like each for different reasons one of the main ones is that they are Different.

I just get pissed off when people sit in a little dream world and then want to talk about it.


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## edX (Jan 2, 2002)

frgmstr - how about built in speakers and soundcards? and are you seriously saying that pc's were using firewire before macs? 

what hardware came first is not really much of an issue to me. It's what you can do with the hardware. I think the who came first issue is pretty split in that department. and for the most part it has more to do with third party developers than apple or pc manufacturers i think. Of course each has certain strengths and limitations of their os. I feel that the major reason we resent M$ and pc's so much at times is because many developers simply don't put the effort into the mac market. or if they do, it is long after thay have released the pc version. The recent surge in apple developed apps is helping to even this out i think plus the new input of linux/osx developers. the trmendous success of the imac has also brought more attention to mac software development. 

so we're sorta back to the 'why do people buy what they buy' conundrum and money as political power. If you have ever felt powerless in any aspect of your life, then perhaps you can empathize with what mac owners have had to endure at the hands of a pc world. especially when that world once appeared to be rightfully theirs.

hey, glad to see you're looking for a mac. perhaps when you start exploring the two platforms from a more hands on perspective you'll understand all this a little better. I hope you manage to find a great machine for your budget!!


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## FrgMstr (Jan 2, 2002)

Thanks Ed, im gonna keep looking, im getting an insurance payout for a Laptop soon i might actually use that too buy a new Mac if i cant find a decent second hand one.

Ed im not interested in what came first either, im really not. Its just like i said you get some idiots on here that like to bend the truth just that bit too far for me to just sit back sometimes.

i think they believe they are in the Matrix or something  No steve is not the chosen one


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## FrgMstr (Jan 2, 2002)

ill give ya firewire, cos thats the one im not sure on, i dont think Apple developed IEE 1394 i think they just renamed it firewire, if that is the case PC's probably did get it first else if apple developed it then id think they definately got it first


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## thedbp (Jan 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by FrgMstr _
> *M8 i could have written those down for you in my original post, you are so predictable. If you think for one second you had those things in Macs before i could have gone out at any time months before and shoved it in My PC you are seriously mistaken and i mean seriously.
> 
> sorry m8, if you can think of any others, id like to hear them. USB before PCs LMAO
> ...



Eh, does it really matter what hardware something comes out for first?  Frankly it makes more sense to try out new hardware on PCs.  Bigger test audience.  Lots of dumber people with money to burn and a habit of tossing $ into their computers every month to "upgrade" when they could have bought a Mac and had everything they needed for years to come.

Seriously, its not about "we had it first!"  It's more about "look how much more you can get done in such an easy way through a more beautiful interface and it even physically looks cool.... [drool]."

Besides, its hard for the majority to admit they were wrong about how they spent their money.  Its a pride thing.  No one wants to feel cheated, it makes you seem like a loser and someone who doesn't thoroughly research all the options before making a large purchasing decision.

Not that I have anything against PC hardware.  Its great for building cheap headless servers and routers etc. if you install a good *nix distro on it.  But if you want to actually USE your computer however ...


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## edX (Jan 2, 2002)

I hope you know what side of this i am on right now but i have to stop and say be realistic thedbp!


> when they could have bought a Mac and had everything they needed for years to come.



there isn't even a mac made that will stay current for years without some upgrading!! i don't have much money but i do spend some of it on my mac every month or two. I'm trying to get some things moved to firewire from usb, i need software updates for osx compatible programs, new peripherals are being created all the time, etc. 

please don't fuel the fires of claims that we live in a fantasy world with oversimplifications like this!! Your initial claim about being a better test market was a good one. no need to stretch the truth on this one.


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## vanguard (Jan 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by JohnnyV _
> *...
> 
> 3. Airport - Again not and Apple invented idea, but was brought into wide use because of Apple. Apple again put wireless networking ablities across the board in all their products before any PC maker had, plus I believe that it wasn't and maybe still isn't supported by windoze w/o extra software/drivers while the Mac OS supports it out of box.
> *



That's pretty tough to believe.  802.11b would have taken off with or without Apple 5% marketshare.  What I will give them credit for is building the antenna into the machine so a dumb antenna doesn't stick out the side.  In addition to that, it get's better reception then my other card.  Way to go Apple.

Somebody said in another post that apple is good at software and design.  I agree completely.  I love this iBook but it's the software and the style I like, not the hardware.  (Or at least not the mobo, cpu, etc.)

I'm not sure what my point is here.  Maybe it's just that I can't live with inaccurate information any better than FrgMstr.


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## b4tn (Jan 2, 2002)

I have to agree with thedbp a bit. I think the Macs will have a longer average life than the PC. Have you ever worked on a PC and then worked on a Mac with the same specs? In most cases the Mac will have better results. My G4 500 Blows the doors off my Overclocked K6III 450. At work I have used PIII 1Ghz machines that feel way slower than my G4. I dont have any technical details but in usability you can feel a definite difference. It may be out dated but it still hangs.


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## edX (Jan 2, 2002)

and that's a very realistic way to put it b4tn. I find that much easier to agree with.


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## Mindy (Jan 2, 2002)

I think therefore I use Macs.


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## sjb2016 (Jan 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by FrgMstr _
> *If you think a G4 is gonna beat an Athlon XP at Maya, Final Cut Pro and Photoshop  you are seriously mistaken and need to get out and use a real computer before you pass judgement. *



I would love to prove to you that the Mac G4 kicks an athlon XP at Final Cut Pro, but alas, the emerging new standard for non-linear video editing doesn't exactly exist on the PC side, making such comparisons, well quite impossible.  Of course, with the boatloads of software out there for the PC that doesn't exist for the Mac I'm sure you can find an equivolent product.  Oh wait, no you can't.  Just my two cents.


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## FrgMstr (Jan 3, 2002)

SJB you seem to be a bit smug that there is no Final Cut Pro for the PC, so what. Its Apple software of course they wont port it to PC, besides if the PC needed it or it allowed you to do something that a PC couldnt already do the PC would GET it and get it fast. Thats a fact you have to live with its called market Share. 

And ive seen an AthlonXP using Maya you wont Prove me wrong.

Thanks Ed for pointing out the stretching of the truth by thedbp (Saved me doing it) that is exactly the type of thing i was on about earlier  Saying they make headless servers and whatever else is just so , well thats just say i shouldnt even waste my time correcting him.


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## FrgMstr (Jan 3, 2002)

M8 Macs last longer then PCs cos you have no choice, if you bough a Dual 800 G4 a year ago you would still have it cos there still isnt anything better, doesnt take a computer scientist to figure that out  (couldnt resist), if i bought a Dual Athlon 1.2Ghz machine 6 months ago i would now have a Dual Athlon MP1900 machine ( in half the time frame i might add).

The above reason is the only reason they last longer and cos they are so damned expensive you wanna get a bit more milage out of the B******D, i should know im trying to get one now.

you compared a G4-500 to a 1Ghz P3, that aint gonna fell faster then the P3 to often unless you are using one very C**P windows installation, besides you can buy 1 gig chips for £45 now in fact i have 3 >1gig chips in my Desk Drawer from past machine when ive built new machines and swapped procs etc over time.

Try buy a G4 500 on its own without selling a body part.

Again you force me to bring out the Evil truth too this forum which many of you hate so much, not all though


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## FrgMstr (Jan 3, 2002)

Oh and with respect to the Dual Athlon machine i mentioned above if i now bought that XP 1900 machine i could still go out and buy a new dual 1200 but at half the Price it was 6 months ago.

Thats something you sure as hell aint gonna see with Apple and its something that really hurts bad.


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## Lonetek (Jan 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by FrgMstr _
> *anything NT based doesnt have a blue screen of death
> 
> Seriously my XP comp aint been rebooted in 2 months and it hasnt crashed once. *



FrgMstr,

Have to disagree here. Yes NT based OS's have the BSD, but it not the same as 9X. What happens is the OS goes to a blue screen with the error at the top of the screen and it begins to dump the memory to the hard drive. You don't have an option to get out of it. Reboot the machine and you are back in business.

NT4, Win2k, and Win XP will Blue Screen, but if they do something is very wrong, usually a hardware driver issue. It doesn't happen that often though.


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## Lonetek (Jan 3, 2002)

Neither is better than the other. 

Both have their following. It is hard to beat a MAC in their nick market, Highend graphics, as they are very fast.

It is a choice that the user makes when he or she buys the machine.

MAC's don't out perform PC's in general, it is more application specific than that.

The MAC's OS is faster than say Win 98, but the CPU's are far behind the PC's.

There are choices and anyone than downs someone else for making a choice to buy say a MAC over a PC or vice versa is a fool.

Somewhere in this thread someone posted that PC users are stupid. 

That statement couldn't be more wrong, and arrogent. 

The Sun doesn't rise and set on MAC's or PC's for that matter. 

The world doesn't revolve around MAC's or the people who use them.

The MAC OS is a great OS, very fast and efficient. 
The hardware on the other hand, while very good is MAC specific.

You can't go down to say CompUSA and buy all the parts and build a MAC, you can with a PC.

That is the only reason I don't own a MAC. I can't built it so that means I would have to spend alot more cash than I care to spend.

If Steve would make his OS so I could run it on my PC's I would. 

The fact is 95% of the world are using PC's and 5% are using MAC's.


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## ulrik (Jan 3, 2002)

I tried to say this some pages back, but people still insist on fighting it out. 

It's a stupid "My Dad is stronger than your Dad"-thing, but well, let them fight...


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## Lonetek (Jan 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ulrik _
> *I tried to say this some pages back, but people still insist on fighting it out.
> 
> It's a stupid "My Dad is stronger than your Dad"-thing, but well, let them fight... *



You have a Point.


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## thedbp (Jan 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ed Spruiell _
> *there isn't even a mac made that will stay current for years without some upgrading!! i don't have much money but i do spend some of it on my mac every month or two. I'm trying to get some things moved to firewire from usb, i need software updates for osx compatible programs, new peripherals are being created all the time, etc.
> 
> please don't fuel the fires of claims that we live in a fantasy world with oversimplifications like this!! Your initial claim about being a better test market was a good one. no need to stretch the truth on this one. *



i'm not exactly stretching the truth per se  I didn't say it would stay current.  That is a bit ludicrous.  But here I am, using a 5 year old 8600 with stock processor and hard drive with no additional video card as a 16-track digital audio station, serious photoshop work, etc.  It doesn't even have that much RAM, "only" 256.  All I'm saying is, most 5-year old PC clones are being used as doorstops right now.

I certainly didn't mean to incite a riot.  Just mention a stark contrast that I noticed.  I mean, I use a Quadra660 for certain stuff.  I've used a Quadra660 and an external 1GB Hard Drive to do offsite audio stuff that I didn't wanna lug either my 8600 or G3 around for.  That 660 setup, manufactured in 1993, cost me $35 on eBay and allowed me to get a DAT-quality recording of a friend's band's show very easily.

Never underestimate the power of the Low End Mac. 
http://www.lowendmac.com


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## Daeyin (Jan 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by FrgMstr _
> *ill give ya firewire, cos thats the one im not sure on, i dont think Apple developed IEE 1394 i think they just renamed it firewire, if that is the case PC's probably did get it first else if apple developed it then id think they definately got it first  *



Apple most assuredly devoloped this tech.  Anyone else remember the fiasco of the Wintel world getting pissed because of Apple's licensing fees on Firewire?


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## karavite (Jan 3, 2002)

Ah, memories of my Quadra 660 AV, perhaps the coolest machine Apple ever released (for its time). I absolutely loved mine and I am baffled why Apple dumped the S-Video ins, telephony features and other stuff that made that machine so damn cool it caused *all* my then Windows freinds to gawk, mumble and yearn for a machine like mine. I sold mine years ago and wonder where it is now. Happy, I hope...


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## banjo_boy (Jan 3, 2002)

Oops! wrong topic!


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## ulrik (Jan 3, 2002)

IIRC, whenever somewhere on the world one firewire port is "built" into anything, 1 dollar goes to Apple...something along these lines

it DEFINITELY was developed by Apple to conquer the DV market...what they achieved (not with DV pros all buying Macs but with a new BUS standard for DV)


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## thedbp (Jan 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by karavite _
> *Ah, memories of my Quadra 660 AV, perhaps the coolest machine Apple ever released (for its time). I absolutely loved mine and I am baffled why Apple dumped the S-Video ins, telephony features and other stuff that made that machine so damn cool it caused *all* my then Windows freinds to gawk, mumble and yearn for a machine like mine. I sold mine years ago and wonder where it is now. Happy, I hope... *



Oh, I am sure it is.  And keeping someone else happy as well.  They really were terrific little computers.  I have 2, keep one running telephony stuff (fax, voice mail, speakerphone) and internet stuff and another that I do mobile sound and some NetBSD "research" on.  Yeah, the built-in S-Video and composite video truly were outstanding achievements.  Hard to believe Macs were that far ahead!  I was very disappointed when they ditched those ports on the B&W G3  but I guess Firewire makes up for that   Now all I need are one of those Firewire DV bridges so I can fill my new 80GB drive up with useless video


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## karavite (Jan 3, 2002)

Hey thedbp!

It's true. Although the G4s, dual processors, DVD RAM... are all beautiful machines, I personally have yet to get as excited about a new Mac like I did when the Quadra 660AV and 880AV came out. Although I sold mine after about two years, the machine was perfectly suited to everything I needed to do, but I always sell my Macs when I can get about half of what I paid for them. Hmm, anybody need a G4 450? (kidding)

If Apple could match or top the *relative* (to the times) level of innovation in those AV machines, that would be something (for me OS X 10.1 was close, but different). I think that was the same year as the Newton (had one of those too) - pretty amnazing times when you think about it, especially when you look at what Microsoft/Intel was putting out in 1994 and 1995! Maybe Apple felt it was burned by trying out too many new things at once? Of course, the new G4s are damn impressive "AV" machines too, but I miss making my computer my answering machine (with almost zero effort)! I'm glad to hear you are still getting a lot of work out of those 660 AVs. Good luck!


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## divibisan (Mar 25, 2002)

Most people who like PCs won't change their mind about Macs no matter how much you reason with them because they would have to admit that they were wrong.

This article will explain it better

I didn't find it so the credit should go to whoever originally posted it


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