# Respecting each other



## edX (Nov 26, 2002)

For some strange reason, we have started to slip back into that void where each of thinks we are the only intelligent being that vists the board. or at least some members have. Despite my asking repeatedly for the end of name calling, belittling and questioning of each others opinions, it continues. it seems to fuel upon itself with little chance of stopping once it starts. it seems to only pause when i close a thread that is getting out of hand and quickly starts back up in another thread.  

so perhaps some of you don't understand what i mean by respecting each other and not questioning the intelligence of others. without saying who they are from, let me give you several examples from recent posts.



> Your arguments, however, are cheap.





> do you just make this stuff up as you go?





> ...because you obviously don't know anything about that market...





> It seems to me that you have some sort of ego problem.





> Your personal belief doesn't mean anything (don't take that personally)...





> Because if you are 100% sure then something is wrong with you..





> Try to be truthful and not try to argue with me...





> Are you sure that you really use a Windows box? Cause frankly maybe after all you just play solitaire or something!





> This is just a possible future for Apple but truly as of now it is plain dumb to expect such a move from Apple...




these are just a few of the possible examples i could use and all pulled from 2 threads. i could find others by a greater variety of posters, but i would hope that isn't necessary to make this point. frankly, all the people who posted these are people i would expect to do better than this.

my solution again is to give everyone 24 hrs to clean up their acts. go back and edit your own posts. at the end of that time, i'm going to delete any posts i find that are questionable. if you think i might delete your post, i suggest you save a copy to edit and repost if it disappears in order not to have wasted all that time. any new posts that cross the line will get deleted as soon as i see them. so will any replies to them, no matter how nice they are - in other words "don't feed the flames"

if anybody has a better solution speak up now. i'm open to suggestions. but frankly i have never liked when people put each other down. nobody here is perfect and none of us know what kinds of problems the other person is dealing with in life. they may really be schizophrenic or have an iq of 70, but that doesn't give anybody else the right to make public assumptions about them. don't tell people they are wrong - show them. if that's not enough, then just drop it. this is not the united nations and we're not changing the world here.


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## Jason (Nov 26, 2002)

not much else i can say, eh?


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## MacLuv (Nov 26, 2002)




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## ApeintheShell (Nov 26, 2002)

mac luv...what kind of animal do you got for your icon? before i thought
it was a person but i guess not.


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## MacLuv (Nov 26, 2002)




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## hulkaros (Nov 27, 2002)

... I'll NOT going to edit anything that I've posted in the past few days cause really I know that I'm 100% sure about the things that I post...

Facts or personal experiences? You decide cause actually there is nothing in this world that is going to convince the other members of this forum that the PC is a funny sport! I mention things that are actually published on M$ site and Windows sites and still I've got this & that member telling me that I am full of crap... Go ficure! And you know what? Why do I have to learn them things that they don't even want to read/hear/see/understand? Who am I? United Nation?

Anyways, if you want to kick me out of this forum go ahead cause maybe after all you are correct: I cannot respect others... Of course one can say the same thing about Apple in general... You see Ed, they do the same thing at their www.apple.com/switch/ telling millions of people that are idiots for using a PC because it has MANY problems... But what they know?


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## edX (Nov 27, 2002)

Like i said Hulk, show people they are wrong, don't tell them. that is the approach that apple takes. nowhere does apple say "windows users are idiots". nowhere!!

if you don't want to edit your posts then be very aware that the entire posts are going to disappear. the valid points you made will be deleted along with the slanders.

and i'm not kicking you off at this point. i'm not kicking anybody off at this point. but if you and others want to continue this abusive treatment of each other into the future, you will end up having to find another place to do it.


here's a quote from a recently deleted post -



> Duh! That's why you aren't rich !



i'm not putting up with the slightest bit of assumption and belittling from anybody at this point. want to joke with your buddy - better make sure a smilie face is there and other clear indications it's a joke.


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## edX (Nov 27, 2002)

MacLuv - I almost made the title to this thread

R.E. S. P. E. C. T.



i also thought about  -

Tryyyy, just a little bit harder...


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## Jason (Nov 27, 2002)

yeah like this

ed smells like poo gas


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## edX (Nov 27, 2002)

no, more like this - 

ed smells like poo gas 


 

[j/k]

or (joke)


don't leave your smilie quite so far down the page. i might not ever read that far before i delete it.


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## Jason (Nov 27, 2002)

tee hee


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## adambyte (Nov 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by BuddahBobb _
> *ed smells like poo gas
> 
> *



Oh no! If I hang around Ed too much, I might smell like poo gas, too! 

*runs in fear*


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## edX (Nov 27, 2002)

yeah, well adambyte, you live in southern calif. so you're already living in poo gas. you'd never even notice. 

 

we used to have the cuss thread in the macosx.cafe forum. maybe now we should have the flame thread and let everybody just go at it. ooops, i forgot the reason the cuss thread got closed is because people couldn't contain it to just there. 

ok, better get your ed jokes in while i'm still in a _good_ mood.


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## Jason (Nov 27, 2002)

so cal is poo gas? i think not! at least we dont have thick split pea soup fog at 5pm in the summer! 

san diego is the most beautiful city in the US to live


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## edX (Nov 27, 2002)

he he  

well, i only lived in SoCal for 13 years - 7 in the LA area and 6 in Diego. with the exception of one summer spent living in El Cajon, i always lived within reasonable distance of the beach so all the poo gas got blown inland and away from me. 

so if i want to make SoCal jokes, i can say that i have spent my time there and earned the right. but you're right - SD is one of the most wonderful places to live. no doubt.  (but adambyte lives in LA  )

and i've gotten to where i like my "thick split pea soup fog at 5pm in the summer! "  It beats burning up in the heat anytime. don't even need an airconditioner.


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## hulkaros (Nov 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ed Spruiell _
> *Like i said Hulk, show people they are wrong, don't tell them. that is the approach that apple takes. nowhere does apple say "windows users are idiots". nowhere!!
> 
> if you don't want to edit your posts then be very aware that the entire posts are going to disappear. the valid points you made will be deleted along with the slanders.
> ...



Ok-Ok... Come on Ed! Maybe I let this came out wrong or maybe you wanted to understand it that way: Not that actually Apple is telling idiots the PC users at their switch campaing but... Isn't this the actual meaning? That: hey people... hear us! you know that wintel box you have all those years? it sucks and YOU already know it! But hey, we have a better thing here... its called an Apple Mac... Buy it!

Or should I say bite it?  

What do you call someone that for many years or for some time had a thing and he didn't know about any other thing? While at the same time the information and knowledge about the other thing is abundant around him/her?

Ignorant? Fool? Idiot? Boring? Without knowledge? Dumb? Stupid? Newbie? Happy person? Liar? Blind? Smart? Intelligent? What? Cause truth to be told right now I don't know other words to describe that person... 

Forgive me but when I tell a person (any person) about Macs the first thing they say is how come they're so good and all people use Wintels? Are they fools and you are smart? Or is the other way around? Or what's the catch? Or what gives?

Anyways, in the last post of mine I think that I didn't call anyone dumb/stupid or anything else...

Do you actually mean that those are the things that are bad manners:?

-"Try to be truthful and not try to argue with me..."
I just told someone to tell the truth and not just argue with me for the sake of JUST arguing... Does that implies that I do not respect the other person? How is that?

-"Are you sure that you really use a Windows box? Cause frankly maybe after all you just play solitaire or something!"
This too shows disrespect? In what way? If you read the whole paragraph I replied to something that I'm sure 100% that he is lying because if one uses windows for REAL work then he should have know the thing I was describing and STILL he was ironic... Or should I tell him: Ok sir... Fine sir... You are right sir... Of course sir... Yes boss! Gimme a break! When a person is lying is lyning! END OF STORY! Or after all he IS just playing solitaire or something ONLY?

-"This is just a possible future for Apple but truly as of now it is plain dumb to expect such a move from Apple..."
Ok... Fine! IT IS a SMART thing to expect from Apple as of now to go Intel/Amd... Is this better Ed? It reads better sure... But is it actually smart?

All I want to say Ed and other Mac veterans around here is that when someone is yo-yo he IS a yo-yo... Who am I to tell otherwise? Ed? Is that your name? What if I called you George? Or Bill? Nah! You are Ed (at least here) so I should call you Ed... When a person Ed is lying or is plain argues with you because he doesn't like your attitude or something that you told him the other day then I'm not going to bend over and let him come... Ok? That's me! What else am I going to do? Post pictures for every single thing that I mention about Windows? Cause Ed if you want this I can DO it you know... And then see who is telling lies and who isn't... Cause it seems that I can't post just text to convince people around here that I know that they are fool of BS... Do you want me Ed to post pictures? It could take some time but hey! It could be really funny for me to see what they gonna say or do to prove me wrong... Do you give me the permission?

As for deleting my whole posts: Go ahead and do it cause you know it seems that they DON'T matter anyways


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## cokeymon (Nov 27, 2002)

Ed what sort of control freak are you?  Are you desperately trying to destroy MacOSX?  I thought Californians were supposed to be laid back.

Noone used offensive language in those posts you quoted - people just argued passionatley.  So what if egos get bruised - that's what debate is all about.

I understand why you don't allow foul lannguage, but there is nothing in those posts that would be harmful to a minor - so why censor it.  It seems like power is going to your head.  Try watching a german film called "Das Experiment" which shows how people in power inevitably abuse power - based on a true story and especially apt in german given that country's Nazi past.

Anyway, you might notice I don't often post, but I'm here every day reading and I enjoy the odd chortle at people who make unreasonable arguments.  It's FUNNY not offensive.  By getting rid of all the passion from this site you will also get rid of a lot of members.

And please, on reading this, don't get all sanctimonious and ask the members to have a vote on how great/bad you are - that is the ultimate sign of someone who's a bit worried he might be going too far.

If everyone on this forum is continually worried their posts might be deleted, why will they post?  Just think things through before you stick your power hungry boot in.

So in summary, Ed, chill out - spend some time in your garden, and let people who are passionate, and sometimes childish, express themselves.


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## edX (Nov 27, 2002)

cokeymon
From the site rules - 


> No slandering the character of a board participant - Even if they are mentally retarded and were probably abused by their parents, you shouldn't be compounding their difficulties by publicly airing their personal problems. Everyone has the right to disagree with any other board member, however, the disagreements should focus on the issue and not person issues.



i was not alone in creating the site rules. in fact i had only a small input. the fact of the matter is that this site is not a usenet group and personal attacks, belittling and questioning the intelligence and integrity of other members is not going to be tolerated. if i weren't moderating this forum, someone else would be in charge of seeing to it that site rules are obeyed. moderators might change - the rules are going to remain. if you find personal attacks entertaining, join usenet or find a forum that encourages them, cause this ain't it.

i think you'll find i'm being pretty "laid back" by allowing people to take personal responsibility for cleaning up their own acts instead of me just deleting or editing their posts from the start. this isn't about power, this is about keeping discussions within the boundaries of the site policy. frankly, i wish all i had to do as a moderator was move a few threads to their correct forums.

and if i were a "control freak", then i would be busy deleting your personal attacks on me.


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## edX (Nov 27, 2002)

hulk -

i don't have the time and energy to point out what is insulting about each of your posts. but let me take one and give you a clear interpretation



> -"Try to be truthful and not try to argue with me..."
> I just told someone to tell the truth and not just argue with me for the sake of JUST arguing... Does that implies that I do not respect the other person? How is that?



you are indirectly calling the person a liar. you are saying that they aren't being truthful. you are making an assumption based upon your perceptions of the world which may or may not be right. if you told me to be truthful, i would be pretty offended that you thought i wouldn't be. if you could, on the other hand, show me where i was mistaken, then i would be inclined to admit that my previous truth had been changed.

but some people are going to confront you some time with opinions that no amount of "facts" are going to change. insulting them is not going to change them and it doesn't make you look any smarter. i know you're a smart guy hulk, just a little emotional about your macs. but you've got to learn to ignore some things and be the bigger man. it isn't about being right or wrong sometimes.

as for posting pics to show your point - please do. neyo does it all the time. sometimes a pic says more than words can, particularly when you have language difficulties. there's no problems with that. just keep in mind, that people are entitled to their own opinions whether you agree with them or not. 

I would be glad to talk to you more about this privately when i get up tomorrow. please think about what i've said so far.


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## edX (Nov 27, 2002)

one last thing for now - verbal emotional abuse is one of the major contributions to depression, low self esteem and other personal problems related to mental illnesses. if i can help reduce it in just this one place at this point in time, then i can go to bed at night feeling good about myself despite the verbal abuse heaped upon me for doing it.


"We are human beings first and everything else second. Let us treat each other as such." - from my sig.


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## cokeymon (Nov 27, 2002)

You cannot possible interpret "publicly airing their personal problems" as calling someone stupid.

Given that this is the internet, and users often have many online personalities, how can any of us really know who it is we're insulting?

Look at the so called insults - you'll find they're most often used in a school playground i.e. by people who have no real idea of the problems/personalities of the "insultee"

Which is why I mentioned the power thing.  No-one (sensible) could possibly be insulted by Hulkaros inference that they're stupid - it's just his opinion and his perhaps childish way of arguing.

So why don't you let people of all intellects, not just well educated adults, post here.

And before you ask or I get flamed, I'm a qualified accountant with a degree in Engineering.


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## fryke (Nov 27, 2002)

Feel free to edit/remove my posts. I know I've been a bit aggressive lately in some threads. Never without reason, I guess, but still: I don't mind if you decide what's gonna have to be EDited.


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## bbloke (Nov 27, 2002)

As much as a dislike censorship (in general), I have to fully support Ed's actions here.  I had been commenting to friends for some weeks now that I felt things were degenerating on the forum, but I was hoping things would improve.  I don't think it is necessary for people to be insulting when debating.  Surely we should be interested in learning from both facts and the opinions of others, and not so much be interested in "winning," and that is why we are here on this forum?

The other thing, which I see as being highly important, is that I felt some posts, but not all (nor am I saying everyone who has been "reprimanded" is guilty of this! ),  had degenerated to such a degree that little or nothing of value was being contributed to the discussion.  There were times I didn't feel some posts of the posts could be called "passionate," only aggressive and condescending.  Hence, to me, the censorship was not obscuring views or factual information, only removing the recent "venom" from the forum.

The amount of work involved in moderating the forums seems to have become quite large recently, especially with the sheer quantity of text!  Also, I think the decision to suspend the threads and force everyone to take stock of the situation was not an easy one to make, but I'm glad you did this, Ed.


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## serpicolugnut (Nov 27, 2002)

> one last thing for now - verbal emotional abuse is one of the major contributions to depression, low self esteem and other personal problems related to mental illnesses. if i can help reduce it in just this one place at this point in time, then i can go to bed at night feeling good about myself despite the verbal abuse heaped upon me for doing it.



I've been hanging around on this site for over a year and half now. I'm pretty respectful of others' opinions and like to think that comes through in my posts (most of the time). However, the recent censorship on this board seems ultra anal to me. Some of it is warranted, but most of it over reaching. And if I have to hear Ed go on and on about "using Netscape benefits AOL" business one more time, I'm gonna lose it. Why not spread the gospel about who the use of IE benefits, Ed?

There was a time when this site was lively, interesting, and full of colorful personalities. Not so much anymore. A lot of it can be attributed to OS X becoming more mainstream in the Mac ecosystem, a lot of has to do with lively personalities dropping off (SimX - where did you go?), but even more of it, I feel, has to do with the whining from the moderators.

Sorry Ed. But if you are losing sleep over the behavior of some on these boards, it's time to get a hobby in the real world, and stop worrying about meaningless things like the tone of chatter on these boards.

So I'm dropping off. I'm not really doing this in protest, but more of disgust. I just don't have time to contribute my thoughts to big brother esque forums where the moderator is so sensitive to words that he's losing sleep at night. I don't want to hurt your feelings Ed, but you are coming across as bedwetter. I'm sure that will get edited out, but I think it needed to be said (if only for your eyes).

For those of you here that still wish to converse with moi, I can be found on AIM (serpicolugnut), and over at www.osxfactor.com, or over at www.serpicolugnut.com. Hope to hear from those worth conversing with.


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## stealth (Nov 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by serpicolugnut _
> *
> Sorry Ed. But if you are losing sleep over the behavior of some on these boards, it's time to get a hobby in the real world, and stop worrying about meaningless things like the tone of chatter on these boards.
> *


i do not think such things are as meaningless as they look at first! it might seem that Ed is over-reacting but the point is that a sarcastic comment from some1 may lead to a personal debate where each one posts 2 pages long replies, trying to prove how much smarter he is than any1 else in this forum. we all have different experiences, and some know more things than others. but that should not matter! lets not try to prove to everyone how much intelligent we all are and just simply discuss our oponinios, without insulting ppl we do not agree with


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## edX (Nov 27, 2002)

> _said by 17 yo stealth_
> lets not try to prove to everyone how much intelligent we all are and just simply discuss our oponinios, without insulting ppl we do not agree with



and that folks, is all i'm asking for.


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## boi (Nov 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ed Spruiell _
> *and that folks, is all i'm asking for.  *



it's not as easy as all that. when you say someone is wrong, it all comes down to attacking their perception of things, ie, their opinions. just follow the course of any argument to find out what happens next.


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## KrinkleCut (Nov 27, 2002)

Just to add my 2cents to the mess on the floor... 

Personally I enjoy and encourage abuse of my person. It's a little twisted but don't get all weirded out - I'm not creepy about it or anything. I just find it entertaining. I 'spose I have a little blue-haired troll for a heart, with sticky-upy hair and a plastic button nose.

Anyway, I think the real point here is a matter of personal or 'ad hominem' attacks versus the attacking of ideas. It is *not* equivalent to say an idea is stupid and an idea is flawed. 

1. Saying that an idea is stupid infers that the holder of this idea is stupid. Ideas can't be 'stupid' in any sense - they can only be wrong, or erroneous, or flawed...etc. People or actions are stupid.

2. Saying an idea is flawed is to infer that the idea has fundamental problems with its facts or reasoning.

See the difference? It's not directly stating that Mr.X is 'stupid', just indicating it through semantics under the guise of critical discourse. Now I don't think all of Ed's examples are good ones (some are in fact debates of point instead of character), but he has the right idea. When 'arguements' constitute attacks of character they aren't valid or worth consideration.

Sorry, I was a logic student for a while. Go get em Ed!


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## Jason (Nov 27, 2002)

well its obvious ed has thin skin if he needs an airconditioner in san diego 

maybe in El Cajon, but in san diego? cmon ed, you suck!  

San Diego is one fine place to live and i dont want to move, although i might have to 

oh and back to this...

umm you can easily debate something without bringing it to personal attacks, its called tact and respect, i reccomend more of it for some users here


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## Ricky (Nov 27, 2002)

"You're wrong!  I hate you!"  

I've never had a problem with flaming people on the board.    At least, I don't remember one...  I try to respect others' opinions to the best of my ability.  I've learned that the best way to deal with people that are... hard to deal with, is to just leave them to their own devices, rather than to provoke them.

R-E-S-P-E-C-T...


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## roger (Nov 28, 2002)

Does anyone else find it ironic that this board is getting more and more PC?











(politically correct)


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## bbloke (Nov 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by roger _
> *Does anyone else find it ironic that this board is getting more and more PC?
> 
> (politically correct)
> *


 

Nice one...


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## Shifting (Nov 28, 2002)

Ed, i know you're probably catching a lot of flak for this thread, not to mention your recent stance on flaming around here.

just want you to know you have my full support.

discussion is discussion.  insults have nothing to do with it.

and anyone bringing up Ed's own views on AOL/Moz are grasping at straws.  and if Ed was so gestapo in his views & modding, there would be no Moz discussion here.  which is obviously NOT the case.

so lay off Ed, people.  he's just doing his job.  be civil to each other.  that's all he asks.


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## bbloke (Nov 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Shifting _
> *
> so lay off Ed, people.  he's just doing his job.  be civil to each other.  that's all he asks. *


Agreed.  Whether rightly or wrongly, I have the impression the forums have become more aggressive in recent weeks, and this is not necessary to the discussions.


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## cokeymon (Nov 28, 2002)

Nice "PC" comment there...

So, you people who want Ed to continue as is, why not just go straight to Apple's website and read the marketing info.  Or maybe go wild and read some Dell marketing info.

Because eventually, if Ed keeps up, we'll all just be able to post nice sterile little corporate soundbites and facts, not opinions.

I thought using Apples meant having a brain and using it, not just being sheep and following the PC crowd.  So if we're independent thinkers, we must also be able to freely express our opinions.

And sometimes opinions cannot be backed up by facts.  At that stage, are we to just say, "OK, we'll agree to disagree, let's not post any more on this subject"?  Surely that would make for a dull debate, and worse for Ed/MacOSX, a dull board.

And Ed, at what stage does something become an insult, capable of causing "emotional distress"?  I've never heard anything so ridiculous in my life!  Do you really think that users of this board might somehow be mentally scarred from an adverse post?  Is my calling PC users "sheep" an insult or an observation?  Tell me a better (more politically correct) way to put it.  You're on a slippery slope to giving yourself a lot more work, alienating users and abusing your status.

The BBC, which most regard as the epitome of broadcasting quality, has a remit to "Inform, Educate & Entertain".  This forum used to do the same.  It's rapidly losing its entertainment value, and if this censorship goes on, it will also lose its education value.  All it will be is somewhere to read requoted marketing material.

For goodness sake, Ed, don't help Microsoft win!  I only bought an iMac after visiting here - I was a PC user till 6 months ago.  I got sick of Bill's control freakery (activation, spyware, Palladium etc) and thought switching to Apple and debating with its users would be a breath of fresh air.  PC users know Mac users get hot under the collar, and are notorious flamers, and this is one of the reasons to switch i.e. to find out what all the fuss is about.

So let this board show people Apple users in their element, confidently telling others why they're wrong!


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## plastic (Nov 28, 2002)

ed stinks.


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## plastic (Nov 28, 2002)

And thanks for policing the boards.


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## terran74 (Nov 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ed Spruiell _
> *these are just a few of the possible examples i could use and all pulled from 2 threads.
> 
> if anybody has a better solution speak up now. i'm open to suggestions. but frankly i have never liked when people put each other down.  *



Ed I think you are going above and beyond the duty as a moderator.

Look, it's one thing if someone cusses you out or calls you a derogatory comment THAT is a racial slur, a slur about your sexuality.  That is  grounds for censoring.  It is also grounds if you do something like smear a person's name with something unrelated or say something slanderous that could damage a person's reputation severely.

People should be allowed to comment about the validity, the experience, and the absurdity of some of the posts on here.  They should be able to question the credentials of people whose opinions are not quite factual. That is what forums are about and we are all adults.  

Look, you said it yourself, some people tend to think they know more than anyone else on this board.  That is typical among men and among computer literates.  They get cocky and arrogant and that's just a part of the culture.

If I said someone was smoking their mom's crack again.  See that's just wrong.  However, I do not feel that justifies pulling a thread.

If someone says "hey i saw you doing *this illegal or morally questionable activity* the other day" that is slander and should be pulled.  it is a fine line and I think you should approach the moderator position as an editor of a Newspaper.  This is a forum and is not much different than an editorial column.  Approach it from that angle.  Think "What would get us sued if we were a newspaper?"  and then let that be your guide.


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## stealth (Nov 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by terran74 _
> *Ed I think you are going above and beyond the duty as a moderator.
> 
> ...  Approach it from that angle.  Think "What would get us sued if we were a newspaper?"  and then let that be your guide. *



we really appreciate ur guide, and ur ideas of approaching things from a certain angle, BUT Eds responsibilities are very clear. The Forum has RULES. if someone does not obey these rules it is  Eds job to make sure that his post is edited. and to warn him so that it he does not repeat the same mistake! 

rules help us live our lives easier. this is a MAC NEWS AND RUMORS DISCUSSUON FORUM. if ppl keep on takin things personally then the forum loses its sense and threads end up closing.
it is in our own advantage to help Ed with his duty


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## edX (Nov 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by terran74 _
> Ed I think you are going above and beyond the duty as a moderator.


thanks 


> Look, it's one thing if someone cusses you out or calls you a derogatory comment THAT is a racial slur, a slur about your sexuality.  That is  grounds for censoring.  It is also grounds if you do something like smear a person's name with something unrelated or say something slanderous that could damage a person's reputation severely.


agreed, these things obviously will not be tolerated here


> People should be allowed to comment about the validity, the experience, and the absurdity of some of the posts on here.  They should be able to question the credentials of people whose opinions are not quite factual.


again i agree, but there are ways of doing this that do not belittle the other person. i'll repeat myself - show them, don't tell them. or simply present a different point of view without attacking theirs. if you want to "question" someone's credentials, then ask them about them or simply state you don't believe them. you're entitled to not believe everything posted here. in fact, i would hope you would be 'critical' enough to not just accept things at face value. but there are ways to do this that conform to site policy, and ways that don't. if the world hasn't taught someone social skills, then perhaps they will pick up a few here. 


> That is what forums are about and we are all adults.


this seems to be a common misconception. we aren't all adults here. we have many members under the age of 18. in fact, we have many under the age of 15. don't assume your audience is just like you. 


> Look, you said it yourself, some people tend to think they know more than anyone else on this board.  That is typical among men and among computer literates.  They get cocky and arrogant and that's just a part of the culture.


agreed again. but once more, there are ways to express that which are acceptable and some that aren't.


> If I said someone was smoking their mom's crack again.  See that's just wrong.  However, I do not feel that justifies pulling a thread.


i don't recall ever pulling, or even closing, a thread because of a single comment. only when people start to feed off of each others flames do things like this happen.


> If someone says "hey i saw you doing *this illegal or morally questionable activity* the other day" that is slander and should be pulled.  it is a fine line and I think you should approach the moderator position as an editor of a Newspaper.  This is a forum and is not much different than an editorial column.  Approach it from that angle.  Think "What would get us sued if we were a newspaper?"  and then let that be your guide.



interesting you should use that analogy as i was a newspaper editor for 7 years of my life. but i'm not as concerned with being sued as i am with maintaining a civil discussion of the issues. i am as capable of all out flaming as anyone here yet i manage to adhere to the guidelines that the admin of this site has set forth. it's that simple. there will always be two different approaches to this issue. there will those who won't come here if we allow aggression as well as those who won't visit if we are too polite. the admin of this site has chosen to cater to the former. if you don't like this, you are free to leave. There are plenty of other resources for participation in character attacks. please, take advantage of them.


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## Jason (Nov 28, 2002)

one thing that i seem to be noticing... you guys are saying he is sensoring opinion

ok so you dont like someone, so your opinion of someone is say they are thick headed...


now there are a couple of ways of going about this opinion, both of them arent liked a whole lot, but IMO one is better than the other...

"you are a f*cking moron, you eat sh*t, pc's suck and so do you"

or

"i dont appreciate your opinions, i prefer not to use pc's as they are not my taste"

both are basically saying the same thing, in the general sense of things, i think the second one would be allowed, but the first one is unneeded and immature IMO

there is a difference between having an opinion and insulting someone because theirs are different than your's.


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## edX (Nov 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by cokeymon _
> Nice "PC" comment there...
> 
> So, you people who want Ed to continue as is, why not just go straight to Apple's website and read the marketing info.  Or maybe go wild and read some Dell marketing info.
> ...


you a certainly entitled to post opinions. and they certainly don't have to agrree with mine. but let's keep those opinions centered around the issues and not about other site members. of course i have opinions about other members here but i try to foolow what my mom taught me - "if you can't say something good about somebody, then don't say anything at all."


> I thought using Apples meant having a brain and using it, not just being sheep and following the PC crowd.  So if we're independent thinkers, we must also be able to freely express our opinions.


i couldn't have said this part much better myself. 


> And sometimes opinions cannot be backed up by facts.  At that stage, are we to just say, "OK, we'll agree to disagree, let's not post any more on this subject"?  Surely that would make for a dull debate, and worse for Ed/MacOSX, a dull board.



at a certain point most opinion based discussions have to end that way. continuing them by resorting to insults doens't exactly add credibility to either side.


> And Ed, at what stage does something become an insult, capable of causing "emotional distress"?  I've never heard anything so ridiculous in my life!


i think you're assuming everyone has the same emotional makeup as you. you're asuming everyone here is emotionally healthy and able to deal with these kinds of things in the same "who cares" attitude that you do. this may come as news to you, but some of our members like this board specifically because we create a safe environment for them to express their views without having their character and intelligence questioned. 


> Do you really think that users of this board might somehow be mentally scarred from an adverse post?  Is my calling PC users "sheep" an insult or an observation?  Tell me a better (more politically correct) way to put it.  You're on a slippery slope to giving yourself a lot more work, alienating users and abusing your status.


 well, i agree with part of this. it certainly is a lot more work for me to make sure that site rules are adhered to. it would be much easier to just sit back and let this stuff go. but then i wouldn't be meeting the responsibilities i accepted when i became a mod. calling pc users sheep is fine. calling neyo or buddahbobb or any other site member a sheep because they like pc's as well as macs is not ok. see the difference? as for mental scarring, let me just say that people in real life, not just here, tend to say things that they don't realize how it affects others. learning that your words and actions can have meanings you didn't think out is part of the maturing process.



> The BBC, which most regard as the epitome of broadcasting quality, has a remit to "Inform, Educate & Entertain".  This forum used to do the same.  It's rapidly losing its entertainment value, and if this censorship goes on, it will also lose its education value.  All it will be is somewhere to read requoted marketing material.


this isn't the BBC.  as i have replied in another post, if flame wars and insults are your idea of entertainment, find other forms. i suggest usenet. some flame wars there last for years.


> For goodness sake, Ed, don't help Microsoft win!  I only bought an iMac after visiting here - I was a PC user till 6 months ago.  I got sick of Bill's control freakery (activation, spyware, Palladium etc) and thought switching to Apple and debating with its users would be a breath of fresh air.  PC users know Mac users get hot under the collar, and are notorious flamers, and this is one of the reasons to switch i.e. to find out what all the fuss is about.


i will try to stay away from pointing out the potential hypocrisy in your wanting to criticize pc users when that was you just a short time ago. but i think you will find that i am one of the biggest microsh*t bashers on the site.  i couldn't agree any more with your perception of billy and his goats. but i'm pretty unawares of mac users having a reputation as being hot under the collar. in fact i would say that the huge majority of site members here are good examples of people who are content with their own happiness using a mac and could care less about people who choose pc's. we might be a bit fanatical or zealous, but we can do so without being jerks. maybe we'll just have to dispel that myth for you.


> So let this board show people Apple users in their element, confidently telling others why they're wrong!



aside from the fact that this kind of right and wrong is more often a matter of opinion, than facts, i still prefer that you show someone is wrong rather than just telling them.

if you are looking for a place to shout about your new found joy of using a mac this is it. just don't shout at people who have disagreements with you.


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## terran74 (Nov 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by BuddahBobb _
> *one thing that i seem to be noticing... you guys are saying he is sensoring opinion
> 
> ok so you dont like someone, so your opinion of someone is say they are thick headed...
> ...



The thing is you guys are creating flame material by trying to maintain the level of civility you are comfortable with.  It is becoming counterproductive when threads are diverted from the topic to "Ed deleted my post" and then all this back and forth banter as to why Ed has that right and what Ed expects of people and their opinions of his expectations and interpretation of the MacOSX.com policy/conduct/rules.

At what point is too much policing counterproductive.  It hasn't stopped anything and it only adds more posts about peoples idea of conduct than about MacOSX, Apple or the industry.

I will admit Ed, You are doing a fine job of keeping the flame wars down.  I've visited many other forums and I have seen so many CRAP postings that are more about bravado than about the topic of the thread.  

However, I ask you to stop and ask yourself, at what point has it become counter productive where you have to constantly defend yourself or your actions or have posts becoming pi$$ing matches about why people hate the censorship of this forum.

No need to give me an answer, just think about it and give yourself that answer.  You don't have to explain yourself to me. 

Have a wonderful "whatever holiday you celebrate" - day


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## hulkaros (Nov 28, 2002)

Give Ed a break! Although I colided "heads" with Ed in the past few days however, it wasn't because I was acting here normally...  

I jumped on my Zeus like behavior and became something that you know what? Isn't me!  

No matter what I've read about me or MacVsPC here, I shouldn't act THAT foolish!

Ed's and Stealth's opinions seem/read to me the "Correct" ways of making a presence here in this very forum...

I hope that all the other members of this forum will excuse my bursts about MacVsPC and I want them to be sure that I will NEVER again become such a jack@$$ no matter what!

Enough with typing and on with actions


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## Jason (Nov 28, 2002)

hey hulk, i wouldnt worry about it, we all have our differences, and sometimes those differences bring out the worst of us, as long as you realize what you are doing and are in control of yourself, you'll be fine 

tis the season for second chances


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## toast (Nov 28, 2002)

Amount of knowledge and discussion is decreasing every day in this forum. I regret older members (racerX, ksv, simX, nummi_G4, the list is long) who knew a LOT about Macintosh and who have gone away or who are much more discreet now.

I also regret serpicolugnut is gone. I am myslef less active than in the past, less motivated I suppose.

But the reason for all that is not Ed at all. In the contrary, I think Ed's mod job is *improving*. But my point stays that macosx.com has lost some of its quality.


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## edX (Nov 28, 2002)

> _ from the buddah_
> tis the season for second chances



not really. there has never been anyone removed without at least a second chance - often a third or fourth chance. i would much rather see people adjust and fit in than be banned in a fit of anger and feeling picked on. only when someone repeatedly ignores my warnings and/or spits in my face, will i take the final actions against them. and be sure, i have not been the one that pushes the ban button. the admin reviews the issue and makes the final decision. i have not been the final authority around here as some of you believe. 

what's funny is that many of the people defending me are ones i have issued warnings to in the past and discussed these issues with privately. i have the sneaking suspicion one or 2 of them are even previously banned members who have come back with a new identity and attitude. my hat is tipped to them if that is the case. and many of the people who are against me are people i rarely see contribute to these questionable discussions. it's pretty easy to stand on the sidelines and laugh.  there is a term for this - sadistic.

i admit i will be sad to see serpicolugnut go. while he and i do not always agree, i have never seen him post in a questionable manner that i can remember. he will remain a registered member here in good standing as far i'm concerned. i hope he reconsiders. he has contributed to this community.

and for those of you who would criticize me and call me names here, relax. i'm not taking names and marking targets. i'd rather we openly discussed this and that you take shots at me rather than each other. i'll be rodney dangerfield for a while if that's what it takes.


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## Jason (Nov 28, 2002)

i think you misunderstood me ed, im saying second chance as in you dont ban people right away, rather you usually give them warnings etc


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## edX (Nov 28, 2002)

no i got that part. just saying this isn't a seasonal thing. it's been my policy all along. 

but i will admit to one thing for my critics - perhaps i do jump in too quick at times. sometimes allowing people to work things out and apologize on their own is a valuable experience in itself. i can remember getting into a big arguement with evildan when he first came here. publicly we got a little carried away - definitly deserved warnings. but privately we worked it out and eventually apologized to each other publicly. since then we've gotten along great. now we're both mods. imagine that


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## Jason (Nov 28, 2002)

damn it the tis the season was just a tis the season hehe


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## edX (Nov 28, 2002)

so now that everybody has seen the announcement about themacko's and mine's promotions, who would like my job? sign up for an interview in the annuncements forum. actually we're looking to add several new mods and even reorganize the site a wee bit. we're NOT changing the rules however.


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## Jason (Nov 28, 2002)

so uh, where do i fit in?


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## edX (Nov 29, 2002)

right here i guess. 

the first new mod has been added. Be as nice to Bobb as you have been to me


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## Jason (Nov 29, 2002)

hmm in some cases i dont know if i want that


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## MacLuv (Nov 30, 2002)




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## plastic (Nov 30, 2002)

I like the PATRO craft...


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## Jason (Nov 30, 2002)

i raise your cartman with a south park jason


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## fryke (Nov 30, 2002)

I doubt that you're _raising_ it with that, though, BuddahBob.


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## Jason (Nov 30, 2002)

yes, yes i am


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