# Linux user seriously considering OSX....



## mattman (Aug 5, 2003)

First off, a bit of my history. I grew up with a mac, and was a diehard mac addict. when i went into developement however, job requirements ment switching to windows, which i have alwas hated. about a year ago, i converted to the awsome power of linux, and am still loving it.

Now, a friend told me awhile back that OSX was unix based. i figured, they ripped out some freebsd code to dump in their kernel to bring it up to date. good for mac. at this point, i need my commandline interface to use a computer, and mac in my mind, was no longer an option. after some posts on unix/linux forums, i decided to do a bit more research into it. low and behold, OSX is a freeBSD fork! 

now, i am still getting over my shock and amazement (just found out yesterday.) The more i read, the more excited i get. UNIX with a mac GUI. is the world coming to an end? has apple released the ultimate in power/userfriendlyness?

at this point, i am almost sold. the more i read, the better it looks. as a linux user, OSX looks roughly 10,000 times more attractive then OS9. as a java webapp developer, i wont have any problems with compatibility. as a conciencous linux user, i am still whoring myself considering buying a non-GNU os, but its slightly ratified by the fact that darwin is open (someone high up must have read eric s. raymonds "Magical Cauldren")

The last thing i need to know, linux is the most gratifying and rewarding OS i have ever used. the configurability and power are only limited by knowledge, something i have never been afraid of aquireing. I want to know, if i go out and buy a mac, will i be happy? does it appeal to the uber-geek as well as john q. idiot? will i be able to apply my linux skills to OSX? will i be able to compile tarballs on OSX? 

It is just that the more i read this, the more im getting the "whats the catch?" feeling. if something is too good to be true, it usually is. the traditional weakness of Mac OS is that it didnt offer the same power to the power user then even windows did. that seems to have changed now, and that change would sink me right back in as a happy mac user.


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## Captain Code (Aug 5, 2003)

MacOS X is more than a rip of FreeBSD code added to the old MacOS kernel.
MacOS X IS FreeBSD(darwin) with the Aqua window manager running on top of it.  Apple has changed FreeBSD to suit their needs and turned it into Darwin.  

You will be able to do anything you do on linux, on a Mac running OS X.  There are some apps that may be hard to compile because OS X has things in different places but if you are good you should be able to get almost everything to compile.  Things that won't work are programs with X86 specific code.

You will probably be even happier because Apple has their own version of X11 which will let you run a lot more programs than aqua alone.

You can always access the terminal at any point and plug away in it, or you can do it the GUI way.  

You will not be dissappointed if you buy a new Mac, I guarrantee.

Some advice:
You seem to have not been following the Macintosh/Apple news for a while so you might not have heard about the new G5 that's being relased some time this month.  If you are going to buy a Mac, this is the machine you will want if you are a hard core Mac addict.  More info at www.apple.com/powermac

Make sure to wear a bib as you will be drooling over the G5!


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## wiz (Aug 5, 2003)

there's no catch. it's just perfect.

btw the fink project has brought a huge chunk of the UNIX/Linux world to macosx, u might wanna check that out!

Aqua is not as customizable as KDE or Gnome! But I must warn u, that Aqua is addictive. Well if not addictive, it is so pleasing to use that you wouldn't give a damn about anything else.

But that dosen't mean u can't use KDE or Gnome at the same time


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## Lycander (Aug 5, 2003)

OSX is not a direct copy of FreeBSD. To clarify, Darwin is not a direct port/copy of FreeBSD. Darwin uses the Mach kernel which was developed at Carnegie Mellon University. FreeBSD uses various "servers" to provide system services. The Mach developers decided rather than having seperate modules running, they're going to combine everything into one monolithic kernel. So yes it's FreeBSD code, but it breaks away from the modular nature of BSD. So Darwin only carries the FreeBSD name indirectly because Mach is FreeBSD based.

I went from Windows to Linux and now OSX. It doesn't have the same geeky feeling as Linux but if you ever change your mind you can always install PPC Linux.

Tip: Logout and login as "console" with the admin password to get command line only, no desktop, no GUI.


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## symphonix (Aug 5, 2003)

If you want to take a look at some of the GNU/Unix packages that have been ported to Mac OS X as part of the Fink project, there is a listing here:

http://fink.sourceforge.net/pdb/index.php

This is only the packages that have been ported, tested and bundled for use on Mac OS X and is by no means a complete listing of what will run.

I migrated from Linux just over two years ago and am terribly happy with Mac OS X.


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## scruffy (Aug 5, 2003)

Lycander, I think you got that backward - the traditional three BSD's are monolithic.

Darwin is a FreeBSD based OS running in userland (as a server) on top of a Mach microkernel.  The BSD server is also somewhat modularized compared to the mainstream FreeBSD OS I believe.  

The Mach kernel itself is not as 'micro' a microkernel as some - I believe some microkernels have something like a dozen system calls - but it's certainly a small one.  The modularity of Darwin slows things down slightly, but in exchange you get easier development and more flexibility. 

Theoretically it's easier to make changes on the fly, since most OS changes happen at some level of the BSD server OS, so you can make the changes without rebooting, but all the system updates just tell you to reboot, rather than log out & in & fiddle around with kernel extensions...

Incidentally, the whole thing is an evolution and partial open-sourcification of NeXTStep, the OS Steve Jobs developed when he was in exodus from Apple for a while.


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## Arden (Aug 5, 2003)

In any case, Mac OS X is UNIX-based, which Mattman will love, I'm sure.  Mattman, get a G5, and be prepared for a computer unlike any you've ever used before.  Welcome to the real.


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## adambyte (Aug 6, 2003)

The only thing you might be disappointed by, really, is Mac OS X's lack of built-in interface customization. you can move the dock, change some things, but it's still very Aqua aqua aqua.

If you're a really interface geek, head on over to http://www.resexcellence.com ... there you will find "Themes" and Theme apps for Mac OS X.... then you can really get your GUI on.


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## Lance (Aug 6, 2003)

I dunno if anyone pointed this out yet, since I didn't read the entire thread, but here is something important:

You cannot compile the kernel to be as sleek and as fast booting as Linux. Well, you _CAN_ compile Darwin, but I don't know of anyone that has. Nor do I think it would be very easy. OSX seems to take an extremely long time to boot, from my experience with it.

I can't really think of anything else right now, but that is a real down for me, when it comes to it being used for a server. It's still god-like for desktops.


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## Arden (Aug 6, 2003)

What about Mac OS X Server?

OS X doesn't take that long to boot, I think, but I have no basis of comparison, so I don't know about other UNIX-based OS's.  Compared to 9, it's not bad.


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## powermac (Aug 6, 2003)

I am not sure if you will find Mac OSX and customizable as linux. In my opinion, you will find enough stuff to play around with with Mac X. As mentioned in this thread, you can always use linux PPC. I say, at least it is not a windows machine.


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## mattman (Aug 6, 2003)

thanx guys, between stuff youve told me here, and posts i have made on other forums, i think im sold. i wrote off mac a few years ago as not something to pay attention to, as i was totally hooked on the command line interface. now i realise it was a mistake.

after looking at prices, i think i will pick myself up a 15" G4 powerbook in a few months. (the 1" tall ones) is there anything i should know before spending 2800$? what to get, what not to get?


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## serpicolugnut (Aug 6, 2003)

For another Linux users perspective on Mac OS X and Mac hardware, check out Wil Wheaton (actor who played Wesley on ST:TNG) and his website. He's a devout Linux guy, but bought an iBook and has been singing it's praises ever since.

http://www.wilwheaton.net


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## Mike Hughes (Aug 13, 2003)

I'm a UNIX programmer.

Mac OS X is the most perfect desktop UNIX.  Nothing else compares, period.  That's the end of the argument.

After one month of usage you're going to wonder why Linux is even around.  You're going to stop caring about techno-masturbatory custom kernel compilations and ridiculously overdressed Enlightenment desktops and start getting some real development work done alongside your entertainment apps.

If you're a Java programmer, wait till you see the Cocoa Java API (which is developed in parallel to the Objective C libraries).  It's a full featured BSD UNIX environment.  The filesystem layout is a little different, but every commercial UNIX is a little bit different.  It's been designed to integrate with an efficient user interface from the ground up.

Best of all: Aqua/Cocoa does NOT run on top of any sort of X server.  It's a native display system and is much more feature-rich and stable than X (a small example: real alpha blending and transparent terminal windows, not just a nasty root window crop hack).  Never fear, though; X servers and all the standard X libs are available, and they work marvelously for displaying native X apps (such as OpenOffice) locally or over a network.

I used Linux for almost 7 years, from '96 to '03.  Then OS 10.2 was released and I picked up a dual G4 and said enough with the endless bullshit I had to deal with when using Linux.

In all honesty, OS X is the biggest reason why I think UNIX will survive for many, many years into the future.  Thank god.


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## Arden (Aug 14, 2003)

Betcha the Enterprise ran some version of Linux... 

I'm gonna check that out just because Wil Wheaton runs it (not that I'm a fan of his or anything, but I like Star Trek).


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## mattman (Aug 14, 2003)

heh, i would say at this point that im sold. gonna start saving for a nice G4 powerbook, after that, who knows? 

One point, Linux is more then a desktop environment, its a philosophy. GNU creates this sort of, enforced bazaar style developement subculture, and the fact that it is where it is now is proof that it works. (note, i am using GNU and linux as synonyms, even though they are not. but as linux brought GNU to the point it is now, for all intents and purposes, they are one and the same.)

That being said, i love linux for what it is and may become, i love linux because of the revolution it has caused in the developement community. I dont love linux (or UNIX for that matter) for its bullshit. Qt/KDE is impressive, GTKmm/Gnome is impressive, X11 is only impressive in its complexity. What linux gave me was a introduction and initiation into the UNIX environment, i dont know if i would have had the stamina and perservearence to learn any other POSIX OS. but what it seems is that OSX is UNIX without the bullshit, which makes me more delighted then anything. as soon as i can scrounge together enough cash, im gettin a powerbook so i can finally have a non-windows developement environment here at work (the origional plan was a notebook with slackware, but that was before i realized how sexy OSX was)


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## Lycander (Aug 14, 2003)

I spent the last 2 days installing and then configuring Gentoo on my iBook. As of last night, my iBook is now PERFECT. This is exactly what I've always wanted: Gentoo on a laptop. And everything works, the Apple keys (LCD dim, volume up/down, CDROM eject). It goes to sleep when I close the lid. I even got Airport working. But the biggest and most important achievement is system-wide font settings. I'm using Bitstream Vera font set which are by far the most beautiful fonts I've ever seen. Text is now much easier to read on my 12" LCD screen.

Although PPC Linux lacks certain things like binary video drivers from ATI/Nvidia, and a Flash plugin from Macromedia, etc., the PPC distros are tailored specifically for Apple systems so it's easier to set up.


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## Mike Hughes (Aug 22, 2003)

In my opinion (not richard stallman's), BSD UNIX and the BSD license are more free and more mature - witness OS X.  

Have you contributed anything to Linux yet?  The rest of the GNU world?  I certainly hope so, else all this talk of freedom and community is all for naught...

The GNU dev environment rocks on OS X.  Project Builder and its companions are all based on the standard GNU tools, which are also included in the Developer package. 

Early in my computing career, Linux introduced me to how good - and bad - desktop UNIXes can be.  Simply put, all the desktop environments available for it have a long, long way to go before they start reaching the level of sophistication and integration OS X and even Windows XP exhibit to the end user and/or developer.

The thing that upsets me the most about GNOME/Ximian/whatever is that they lack originality - everything they do, they copy from Microsoft.  I'm speaking technically and aesthetically.

KDE is a lot better, in my opinion.  Hey, even Safari is based on their HTML renderer 

And in the end, the reason Linux is unsuitable as a unified development/internet/entertainment environment (for ME, personally) is the very reason that it rocks - too much variety, not enough standards.

But, again, X is what drags the whole thing down.  I heard from someone that the only good X server ever written was by SGI - and I tend to believe it.




> _Originally posted by mattman _
> *One point, Linux is more then a desktop environment, its a philosophy. GNU creates this sort of, enforced bazaar style developement subculture, and the fact that it is where it is now is proof that it works. (note, i am using GNU and linux as synonyms, even though they are not. but as linux brought GNU to the point it is now, for all intents and purposes, they are one and the same.)
> 
> That being said, i love linux for what it is and may become, i love linux because of the revolution it has caused in the developement community. I dont love linux (or UNIX for that matter) for its bullshit. Qt/KDE is impressive, GTKmm/Gnome is impressive, X11 is only impressive in its complexity. What linux gave me was a introduction and initiation into the UNIX environment, i dont know if i would have had the stamina and perservearence to learn any other POSIX OS. but what it seems is that OSX is UNIX without the bullshit, which makes me more delighted then anything. as soon as i can scrounge together enough cash, im gettin a powerbook so i can finally have a non-windows developement environment here at work (the origional plan was a notebook with slackware, but that was before i realized how sexy OSX was) *


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## dani++ (Aug 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mike Hughes _
> *I'm a UNIX programmer.
> 
> Mac OS X is the most perfect desktop UNIX.  Nothing else compares, period.  That's the end of the argument.
> ...



I have been a UNIX and Linux administrator/user for 3-4 years now. Plenty of Solaris and Linux experience, dealing with medium-sized installations and clusters.

I cannot agree more with this. Try OSX and you will love it as your desktop (UNIX) OS.


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