# Would we see Mac .NET?



## ddma (Apr 9, 2002)

The five-year-old Apple/Microsoft partnership is going to expire. Would we be able to see any Mac .NET plans or products?

http://www.newsfactor.com/perl/story/17161.html


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## dricci (Apr 9, 2002)

I have a feeling we will. Microsoft knows that there will be a lot of new Mac users if Apple plays their cards right. And Microsoft really doesn't care about Windows on the desktop as much anymore. Their main goal is to get every server in the world running NT and .Net. So, if they open up their .Net to work on more OSes, then that means more people will use and pay for their services, so in the long run they make money from Mac users and Windows users, and the profit from Windows XP is lower than the total .Net income.

They think in Money, not Mac vs. Windows.


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## ddma (Apr 9, 2002)

I agree. Mac OS X.NET Server~ LOL


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## vic (Apr 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ddma _
> *I agree. Mac OS X.NET Server~ LOL *



there will be no such thing, maybe "mono" on darwin...


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## ddma (Apr 9, 2002)

I am kidding. But there could be some .NET products anyway.


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## vic (Apr 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ddma _
> *I am kidding. But there could be some .NET products anyway. *



sure... i would not use them though.


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## ddma (Apr 9, 2002)

HAHA. Who knows they would be bad huh? Be positive sometimes~


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## Hypernate (Apr 10, 2002)

Come on guys and gals. We really are pretty hard on Microsoft. I mean, sure, Windows DOES suck generally, but tere area a couple of good features, Office v.X is excellent, and Internet Explorer, for all its problems, is actually pretty good. 

Please don't think I'm a Microsoft fan! I dislike Bill Gates, but they have helped Apple. Very few people who use macs now would if they couldn't use IE or Word, would they?

And in the end, it is just a computer, right?

~*~*~*~*~*~

And as to seeing .NET? Of course we will, but that doesn't mean it will become the standard, or incorporated into MacOS, like it is with WinXP.


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## senne (Apr 10, 2002)

Hmmm..

IE --> Omniweb (so much better)

word... ok, but if it's really a must to have NO microsoft software, use Appleworks.

You can live without microsoft, i'm pretty sure about that.




senne.


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## vic (Apr 10, 2002)

ok, but here is my problem... i am doing fine with all my programs installed on my computer. how is dot net going to improve the way i work, make money, use a computer? i like computers the way they are now. if dot net can bring something new and better to the table sure, but i can't imagine how many more improvements can be made to the software i am currently using. all i am now waiting for is os x photshop and dreamweaver os x. again waht exactly will dot net offer me that will be better than these tools?


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## ulrik (Apr 10, 2002)

If you ask me, the theory behind .NET is one of the greatest things ever invented. It is what Java should have been. The problem - if you ask me - is that Microsoft is doing it. I am not bashing on Microsoft all the time, but I know how they run their business. Banning Sony from the CeBit proved me once again why I dislike them. And I fear the same for .NET. Java was developed be platform independant so that different OSes can run applications without the need to recompile them. That it is dog slow and thus nearly only is used in the web is known. .NET looks promising, but MS will certainly again use it to strengthen their monopoly. Then again, the Mac BU already said they are not willing to adapt .NET. 
Next week, again, there is the C2000 forum in Germany. C2000 is the main distributor of nearly everything IT in Germany, including companies like MS, Apple, IBM, 3Com, Acer, Adobe, APC, ASUS, AVM, Computer Associates, Corel, Compaq, Creative, Epson, Guillemot, Intel, Kingston, Novell, Plextor, Samsung, Sony, WACOM etc.
Most of the products of these companies are logistically handled and distributed by C2000 (now named Tech Data) and once a year, the company holds a forum for it's distributers. It's closed for "common people". I am looking forward. Allthough Apple is not going to hold a speec this year like it did last year, Microsoft will hold a 2 hour speech about .NET. I am very interested  to hear how the sell the idea of .NET to the distributors of their products...and how other companies will react...

...and again I am exited to drink with the Apple Germany guys after the show like last year, who demonstrated me 10.0.3 one week before it was available ...maybe I can get them so drunk, they show me 10.2 ??? 

We'll see...


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## putamare (Apr 10, 2002)

.NET seems to be a lot of different things, on one hand it is a sort of unification of all the existing M$ development languages, on the other it is (total?) integration with services like passport (big brother?), M$ also seems to be naming any new version of anything they ship .NET.

What little I know about .NET involves the "common language runtime" M$ is implementing as an intermediate step between all their development languages and machine code. If you write C#, VB, or whatever it gets compiled to the same CLR which is converted to machine instructions as it is run (thus VB.NET C++.NET, etc.). I suppose someone could write a runtime processor that executed the .NET CLR into Moto machine code, I won't hazard a guess about the cost/benefit ratio of such an endeavor. I'm sure Adobe would love to write one version of PhotoShop, but would anything written in such a fashion not run like a dog? Or take advantage of processor specific advantages like AltiVec?


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## FrgMstr (Apr 10, 2002)

why would you diss .net its an amazing all in one  Development Enviroment, why wouldnt you like that available on the mac platform, you dont seem to have to many other good ones to choose from, do you?


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## vic (Apr 10, 2002)

ok, who are you talking to?


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## dricci (Apr 10, 2002)

Because it's a closed, proprietary system for use to leverage their monopoly power higher and higher. Java seems to be a good cross-platform system, and it runs on more than Windows. There's no garuntee all .net stuff (or any for that matter) will run on a Mac. I doubt we'll ever see an open source version of it that'll run on Linux.


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## vic (Apr 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by FrgMstr _
> *why would you diss .net its an amazing all in one  Development Enviroment, why wouldnt you like that available on the mac platform, you dont seem to have to many other good ones to choose from, do you? *



really? since when has microsoft  started to be so giving and sharing? -- check your strings, pupet.


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## phatsharpie (Apr 10, 2002)

What I don't understand is why would Microsoft adopt a programming model using CLR when they seem to be disinterested in porting the runtime environment to other OS'es?

I'll wait to see what software Microsoft ships that actually runs in the CLR. Remember when Microsoft was pushing the usage of MFC when they themselves shied away from it? This definitely has that taint... I'll be impressed if Microsoft ships SQL Server or Exchange Server and have them run in the CLR adequately.

-B


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## ulrik (Apr 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by vic _
> *ok, who are you talking to? *



He's talking to no one. It's frgmstr, he doesn't know what he's talking about but has to object, that's all. Ignore him and he will be silent again.


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## putamare (Apr 10, 2002)

According to an article I was reading in the March ACCESS-VB-SQL Advisor, M$ is even implementing the CLR in their upcoming SQL Server (code named Yukon, oh that's too easy, due mid-2003).


> You will no longer be required to use Transact-SQL to write SQL Server stored procedures, triggers, and user-defined functions. You'll be able to create these objects using any of the .NET languagesVB.NET, C#, C++, or even COBALT.NETand compile them into .NET assemblies. These assemblies will be deployed inside a SQL Server database and run by the CLR, which will be hosted inside the SQL Server memory space.
> 
> One important benefit of relying on the .NET Common Language Runtime is that is can verify that all code hosted by SQL Server won't cause any memory usage errors that would bring down the server.... The goal of the SQL Server design team is that all .NET code executing in SQL Server will be at least as safe, secure, scalable, and fast as Transact-SQL...


I won't hold my breath until phatsharpie is impressed.


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## putamare (Apr 10, 2002)

&lt;unwarranted rant&gt;
By the way, I don't know if FrgMstr was implying that I was "dis"ing .NET, (I thought my comments were pretty neutral), but one thing I will "dis"  is M$ IDEs. I occasionally use VB & InterDev, and would almost rather use WordPad. These real estate hogging apps give room to every imaginable window, panel and oversized button except for the code. Now, I'm no Windows power-user by any means (so there might be something I'm missing), but if I make the text small enough to see a good amount of code on my screen, it becomes too difficult to read. 
&lt;/unwarranted rant&gt;


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## Jayem (Apr 10, 2002)

imo .net is poised to boom , then fail, and then slowly gain some ground again. M$ is pushing all of these ideas into the hends of trained chimps. I hope apple doesn't get involved too soon.


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## FrgMstr (Apr 11, 2002)

In VC++ dont know about the rest you can go to full screen mode, and the entire screen is just used for coding, then at the press of a button you can go back to standard view if you need some buttons etc.


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## FrgMstr (Apr 11, 2002)

He's talking to no one. It's frgmstr, he doesn't know what he's talking about but has to object, that's all. Ignore him and he will be silent again.

Says Ulrik of all people, LOL gimme a break. 

I only comment on worth while subjects if you havent noticed which is why i only post here about once every six months ( says something in itself ), i couldnt care a less what colour someones dock is.


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## FrgMstr (Apr 11, 2002)

Vic

I didnt say they were so giving and sharing, they like to make money, just like i do. Cant fault em really.

Apple likes to make money too you know they do it by charging over the top prices for under rated hardware didnt you know. You dont moan about them not being giving and sharing


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## dricci (Apr 11, 2002)

FrgMstr, did you check the URL to the site? You may be looking for WindowsXP.com forums, not Mac OS X forums.

Does it really take a tripple post to share your opinions?


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## FrgMstr (Apr 11, 2002)

dricci, you see it wasnt me that dragged this into an argument, some of the posts before ulriks made some good points and questioned some legitimate concerns about the architecture but this is just silly and part of the reason why i post so little here.

Becasue this is a MacOSX forum does that mean i wont find anything interesting to read if im a WinXP user, no of course not, this thread is just one example of why i continue to pop into the forum every now and again.

besides i will have a go at OSX when the port it to the AMD Sledgehammer, which they will do.

and yes apparently it did take three postings to share my opinion, so. Why be so picky.


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## vic (Apr 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by FrgMstr _
> *dricci, you see it wasnt me that dragged this into an argument, some of the posts before ulriks made some good points and questioned some legitimate concerns about the architecture but this is just silly and part of the reason why i post so little here.
> 
> Becasue this is a MacOSX forum does that mean i wont find anything interesting to read if im a WinXP user, no of course not, this thread is just one example of why i continue to pop into the forum every now and again.
> ...



listen, i apreciate your imput, but where did you hear about os x being ported to the ibm compatible market? it's not going to happen. i'm sure of that but if it does i'll make sure we meet and then you can kick me in the ass.


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## lonny (Apr 11, 2002)

XP users tend to be annoying.
Can't blame them actually.... they have a hard time.


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## FrgMstr (Apr 11, 2002)

Vic, check this out

http://www.theinquirer.net/07040202.htm

normally i wouldnt listen to that sort of stuff, but coming from the inquirer the chances are its pretty reliable. ATI and Nvidia are getting in on the action.


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## ulrik (Apr 11, 2002)

Sure...  

There is no need to port anything. The port exists. And as long as  Apple earns it's money by selling hardware, it will never be released. It's that simple.


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## FrgMstr (Apr 11, 2002)

Selling Operating Systems can be quite profitable, ask MicroSoft, but then i wouldnt expect Steve Jobs to think different


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## vic (Apr 11, 2002)

selling operating systems is not profitable, ask linux distros. forcing OEM's to buy your operating system is profitable, ask microsoft.


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## ulrik (Apr 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by FrgMstr _
> *Selling Operating Systems can be quite profitable, ask MicroSoft, but then i wouldnt expect Steve Jobs to think different   *



it's funny how you again proof that you have no clue what you are talking about. If you ever red Microsofts annual reports, you might have realised that selling an OS is just to get consumers buy other MS products. Be it Office, Plus, Games etc. or Exchange Servers, SQL Servers etc. for companies. This is where Microsoft draws the money from.
Compare the work you have to put into an OS and it's price. Every noticed that OSes are nearly the cheapest things in the software industry but the hardest to invent/realize/support? 

There where companies who tried to ONLY sell OSes....well, Be, OS/2, OpenStep....I won't mention what happened to them  (well, technically I am posting from OpenStep  )


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## .dev.lqd (Apr 11, 2002)

Didn't see this mentioned while skimming... but Ximmian has all but said that's its less of a question of if it's .net product comes to OS X, but when.

It was on thinksecret some time ago...


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## FrgMstr (Apr 11, 2002)

vic 
It doesnt matter how they do it.

Ulrik
Microsoft Windows put MS where it is today, granted what you are saying is true, but so is what i said, it was intentionaly vague since i didnt really have time to break down MS' annual earnings into a pie chart for you


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## putamare (Apr 11, 2002)

From mono FAQ


> Question 1: What is Mono exactly?
> 
> The Mono Project is an open development initiative sponsored by Ximian that is working to develop an open source, Linux-based version of the Microsoft .NET development platform. Its objective is to enable Linux developers to build and deploy cross-platform .NET Applications. The project will implement various technologies developed by Microsoft that have now been submitted to the ECMA for standardization.
> 
> ...


Even very bad monkeys?


> Question 8: Is Mono usable?
> 
> The JIT engine is usable on Intel x86 machines. An interpreter can be used on other non-Intel x86 machines.
> 
> ...



And on their rationale page they have a pretty clear breakdown of what .NET "is":


> <ul>
> <li>The .NET development platform, a new platform for writing software.
> <li>Web services.
> <li>Microsoft Server Applications.
> ...


So by asking will we see Mac .NET, do you mean just the development program or more?


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## ulrik (Apr 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by FrgMstr _
> *
> Microsoft Windows put MS where it is today, granted what you are saying is true, but so is what i said, it was intentionaly vague since i didnt really have time to break down MS' annual earnings into a pie chart for you  *



You said selling an OS is profitable. That is not vague, that is what you said, and this is wrong! On another forum, somebody said Apple should port OS X to x86 and give it away for free. This is also wrong.

Consider what has to be done to invent an OS! You need nearly EVERYTHING IT. First, you need compiler builders, maybe the most expensive programmers in the IT business. You need a filesystem, you need multimedia engines, fonts, graphic engines. And since licensing costs are high, you have to invent your own. Creating a market-ready OS is maybe the single most expensive task in the IT business. Now, compare OS prices to other software. The last x86 OS I bought was 95, the rest came as OEM products with the machines I bought (or I could at least presuade the shop to give me an OEM OS with a set of motherboard/CPU/graphics board). I think the consumer line of MS OSes is around 300 dollars if you buy it new. Workstation or Server OSes like Win2K, Win2K server and Win2K Advanced/Enterprise Server range somewhere between 700 and some thousand dollars, depending on how many CPUs you have. Now compare this to products like Photoshop, Flash or even Maya. I don't wanna say that any of these products wasn't hard to create, but if you consider this, OSes are cheap. And why are they cheap? Because the companies selling those OSes want the customer to be bound to them. Apple wants us to be bound to Apple hardware. That's how the earn money. If Microsoft would have started as a hardware company, it would be the same.


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## RacerX (Apr 11, 2002)

I'm sorry I didn't look at this section sooner... Hi there FrgMstr!



> _Uttered by FrgMstr_
> *why would you diss .net its an amazing all in one Development Enviroment...*
> 
> _and_
> ...



Okay, so you have experience with Visual C++, and don't seem to know about the rest, so I'm guessing that your statement about how _amazing_ .NET is must be based on gut feeling and not experience. And the point of .NET was to get  people to use Microsoft products and to have people keep all their personal info on Microsoft servers.

Now, the thing about that which is so bad (as if the security holes in Passport wasn't bad enough) is that Microsoft states in their licensing agreement that any information on Microsoft servers can be used by Microsoft without their needing the users permission. That means that if they want to go through people's Hotmail accounts, MSN accounts, and Passport information, they can.



> *Apple likes to make money too you know they do it by charging over the top prices for under rated hardware didnt you know. You dont moan about them not being giving and sharing*



This would be the same Apple that held up Quicktime 6 and MPEG 4 because they don't want people to have to pay huge prices to use the standard like the other members of the MPEG 4 group wanted. The major difference between Apple (or most companies for that matter) and Microsoft is that Microsoft wants to get rid of competition.

And we can go round and round about the hardware, but we don't want you running from the site with your tail between your legs again, now do we.



> *besides i will have a go at OSX when the port it to the AMD Sledgehammer, which they will do. *



No, they won't. Why, for the same reason Microsoft dropped support for Windows NT on PPC and MIPS, no application base to get users to move to those systems while using NT. We could go on with examples, but you wouldn't be able to follow along anyway.



> *Selling Operating Systems can be quite profitable, ask MicroSoft, but then i wouldnt expect Steve Jobs to think different*
> 
> _and_
> 
> *Microsoft Windows put MS where it is today*



Microsoft is were it is today because of DOS, backwards compatible operating systems, and being pre-installed on almost every PC ever made (which means they earn money weather or not someone wants to use Windows or not).  And getting people to use the Office products file formats as a standard. If you believe anything else, then you have a poor grasp of computer history.

And if selling operating systems is so profitable, what happened to Be and NeXT. Once they dropped the hardware, they started to lose profitability. No company is going to use the x86 platform for other operating systems because of all the great operating systems that have left or died on the platform (Solaris being the latest to drop x86 support). But hey, you know Windows, so what do you care what the rest of the computing world is doing.

_Side Note:_



> *I use this Forum because im thinking of getting a MAC.*



How's that Mac working out for you? Oh and if this is like a few months ago where you said _"well actually i was just saying it was funny(you lot take things to seriously and have no sense of humour)"_, actually I laugh at every thing you post.


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## FrgMstr (Apr 12, 2002)

Racer X

MS have had that info clause since hotmail started, nothing to do with .Net.

Visual studio.Net as a development enviroment is Second to NONE and you dont have to develop progs which reside on MS servers to use it. that is what i was commenting on and is why i said Apple doesnt have any Development suite ti match it. 

I was not talking about the big picture of .Net which if you followed IT news you would know MS dropped the development of BlackCoombe (aka Hailstorm) yesteday because of lack of third party support.

so please people thats actually make sure we understand the comments before we start critisizing them.

also people act like apple have no security holes please give me a break if apple OS'es were scrutinised as much as MS OS'es im sure a few would be found  

VS.net is just so user friendly and powerfull and has just about the fastest compilers available, well compared to GCC anyways   

by the way i know compiler design is hard it is a large part of our course. Its very tedious to say the least.


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## FrgMstr (Apr 12, 2002)

Oh forgot i didnt end up getting a Mac in the end i gave in to temptation and put the money towards my Suzuki GSXR 750. Very tasty 0 - 60 mph 2.8 secs and top speed of 186mph limited of course   . A BEAST i can tell you, the neighbours complain when i start it in the morning   wakes the whole neighbourhood up.


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## RacerX (Apr 12, 2002)

> _by FrgMstr_
> *MS have had that info clause since hotmail started, nothing to do with .Net.*



I never said that it was a result of .NET, I just thought that that was one of the key reasons for it being a bad idea (where it might not be if it was from any other company/group). And Hotmail wasn't started by Microsoft.



> *Visual studio.Net as a development enviroment is Second to NONE and you dont have to develop progs which reside on MS servers to use it. that is what i was commenting on and is why i said Apple doesnt have any Development suite ti match it.*



That is funny, I could say the same thing about Web Objects (Apple's development suite which sounds like more than a match for Visual Studio .NET), but it has won numerous awards by web development groups giving any claims I might make some actual weight. As for deployment (and development), Web Object can be set up on Mac OS X Server, Solaris and Windows 2000 Server and can be developed on Mac OS X and Windows 2000. You were saying something about residing, weren't you?  What about what platforms you can develop, deploy and access it from? Somehow, _Second to NONE_ in a Windows only world, sounds like what Microsoft is shooting for (by getting rid of competition) but has yet to achieve.



> *I was not talking about the big picture of .Net which if you followed IT news you would know MS dropped the development of BlackCoombe (aka Hailstorm) yesteday because of lack of third party support.*



I know, half the reason for hitting on the issue was it's failure (and lets _not_ call the Register/Inquirer _IT news_, we know those are your favorite sources of misinformation). 



> *so please people thats actually make sure we understand the comments before we start critisizing them. *



Yes but if we enforced that standard, you wouldn't be able to post here. You are so ill informed on so many issues (though I love when you walk blindly into things), that your statement truly only applies to you here.



> *also people act like apple have no security holes please give me a break if apple OS'es were scrutinised as much as MS OS'es im sure a few would be found *


 
Visual Basic Scripting has never require scrutiny for people to take advantage of it. Microsoft enables features that users may never use, and _THAT_ my poor misguided friend _is_ their problem. In all reality, a stripped down version of Windows would be the best thing that could possibly happen for consumers, because that would mean that they would have to add/enable only the features that they want/use (even if they only get those features from Microsoft). It may or may not hurt Microsoft, it absolutely is going to hurt the Anti-Virus industry (which should never have become an industry to begin with), and it is going to help consumers.

You know I hate to bring the issue up again, but what do they teach you in that school of your's?



> *VS.net is just so user friendly and powerfull and has just about the fastest compilers available, well compared to GCC anyways
> 
> by the way i know compiler design is hard it is a large part of our course. Its very tedious to say the least.*



This is based on Microsoft telling you this? And compared to what? You seem to be under the impression that this is the only product of it's kind. I guess they barry you in the compiler part of (Windows) computing to distract you from the rest of the problems with the system.



> *Oh forgot i didnt end up getting a Mac in the end i gave in to temptation and put the money towards my Suzuki GSXR 750. Very tasty 0 - 60 mph 2.8 secs and top speed of 186mph limited of course. A BEAST i can tell you, the neighbours complain when i start it in the morning  wakes the whole neighbourhood up.*



This is not surprising. But I am still laughing at all your posts. Keep 'em coming!


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## ksuther (Apr 12, 2002)

Completely off topic, but RacerX, you winded yet?


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## FrgMstr (Apr 12, 2002)

Man you are full of yourself arent you, tell you what you can sit back in your i know all world and laugh at my posts, i dont care Ill just sit back and laught at your Ignorance, LOL.

what you gonna do now, do what you ussually do and call me Ignorant back or something and say my comments apply only to me, please.

you see i forgot i have to spell things out to you there i was assuming i didnt. ok when saying VS is the best out there, you said compared to ???

well  
anything Borland
anything on Linux
Codewarrior
so what you go on about Web Objects, ok lets see you write a device driver in WebObjects, LMAO

who cares if its won awards lets see how many people actually use it compared to VS.

Ignorance is bliss eh RacerX, well i dont know but id like too know is it.

why does the fact that i like fast bikes come as typical to you?


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## RacerX (Apr 12, 2002)

I just getting started, but back to the show...



> _ by FrgMstr_
> *Man you are full of yourself arent you, tell you what you can sit back in your i know all world and laugh at my posts, i dont care Ill just sit back and laught at your Ignorance, LOL.*



I point out your flaws, you are the one who asks for it by posting them. Sorry I can't stop you from posting this stuff, but why would I want to any ways. 



> *what you gonna do now, do what you ussually do and call me Ignorant back or something and say my comments apply only to me, please.*



Gosh, aren't we just a little sensitive (again). I guess I forgot that your cranky this late in the morning. 



> *you see i forgot i have to spell things out to you there i was assuming i didnt. ok when saying VS is the best out there, you said compared to ???
> 
> well
> anything Borland
> ...



Seeing as WebObjects uses many of the same development tools as Cocoa (which was Yellow Box before that, and OpenStep before that), something tells me that you just might be able to. But we were talking about development, deployment and accessing .NET. Please address these issues in your next fun filled post.



> *who cares if its won awards lets see how many people actually use it compared to VS.*



But you said _Second to NONE_, you did say that didn't you? By who's standards? The world is full of _lets see_s, WebObjects is proven. 



> *Ignorance is bliss eh RacerX, well i dont know but id like too know is it.
> 
> why does the fact that i like fast bikes come as typical to you?*



Poor, cranky, FrgMstr. Are your feelings hurt? Can't argue the points today? I was saying that you not getting a Mac (when it was very apparent that you never had any intention of getting one, you were just trying to deflect people's attacks by saying you had ordered one) was what I found not to be surprising. Keep 'em coming, this is great!


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## dricci (Apr 12, 2002)

This is getting good. I'm making some popcorn. 

C'mon Microsoft, Keep sending your trained Soldiers.NET over to keep us entertained!


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## FrgMstr (Apr 12, 2002)

RacerX i seldom get angry and this is certainly not me angry.

i dont mind arguing all day, it gives me a break from my studies and a bit of fun. 

yeah i did say it was second to none, how have you addressed that with WebObjects, you havent.

Believe me  i would like to diss WebObjects   but since i have no experience in it i cant  

So i cant really argue VS v WO even though i know they dont even compete against each other, an dthats not because they are on different platforms.


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## RacerX (Apr 12, 2002)

> _by FrgMstr _
> *RacerX i seldom get angry and this is certainly not me angry.*



Funny, I thought your lack of content in that last post was because of emotion... I guess I was wrong.



> *So i cant really argue VS v WO even though i know they dont even compete against each other, an dthats not because they are on different platforms. *



Good, but they actually aren't completely on different platforms. Like I said, development can take place on Mac OS X or Windows 2000. Deployment on Solaris 8/9, Mac OS X Server or Windows 2000 Server. Accessed by just about any browser on any platform. You show me that .NET is planning on being that broad, and I'll give you this argument. It is the fact that .NET is Microsoft's way of hijacking the internet that makes me worried here.


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## FrgMstr (Apr 12, 2002)

My lack of content in the last post was due to my lack of time and my lovely lunch calling me  

I too do not want MS to highjack the Internet but i do still like the development Enviroment they provide, in my opinion it is the best there is and ive used a fair few of them, not all though of course.

(not all was included for the benefit of RacerX )


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## RacerX (Apr 12, 2002)

So your lack of content in this last post was for me? You seem to be getting weaker in your arguments as we go on. Why not go back and hit on some of the points I made earlier?

I can wait.


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## FrgMstr (Apr 12, 2002)

Anything ive not hit on yet, is not worthy of my attention due to their complete falseness and i dont have time to educate you otherwise.
 

alas i have tried, you can only take a donkey to water you cannot make him drink


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## RacerX (Apr 12, 2002)

That was a poor excuse for an argument. Why don't you try again.


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## FrgMstr (Apr 12, 2002)

Racer admit it you want to be me    


I know you are in AWE of my Knowledge of all things


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## RacerX (Apr 12, 2002)

Okay folks, there you have. FrgMstr beaten senseless. Lets watch now as he struggle to make personal attacks (which are pointless with out content to back them up).

Poor little Fraggy, do you need some time to actually ask some one else for help here?


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## RacerX (Apr 12, 2002)

> _dreamed by FrgMstr_
> *Racer admit it you want to be me...*



Why? You're a pointless troll who can't back up his arguments. No one want to be you right now, you're just... sad.


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## RacerX (Apr 12, 2002)

FrgMstr, don't leave! 

You used to be my favorite Troll <tear>, now you are just some sorta pathetic wipping-boy.

*Snap out of it man!* Show some dignity (so I can take it away again  ).


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## Valrus (Apr 12, 2002)

Guys, I think this is winding down and it's just becoming a little bit silly. Thanks to you both - I was very entertained, and in the end I have to side with RacerX, and my reasons are very stupid.

I don't trust Microsoft. Period. End of story. I cannot believe that they are going to make something as huge as .NET and _not_ use it in the same vile way they've used everything else.

Also, frgmstr, your grammar was atrocious. I can't take you seriously if you don't put in the effort to write a little more carefully. RacerX, stop looking so smug. Yours was better than frgmstr's but still passable at best. 

Ahh, grammar. I will make you all hate and fear me. 

And after seeing how they were used in this thread, I fear I will never use a  again.

Regards,

-the valrus


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## FrgMstr (Apr 12, 2002)

ah Racer, you are so stupid, you put up this pretense that you dont find me irritating, but to get it out of you i let you think my defense is down. 

and what happens it all comes out, LOL

Racer as if you could ever beat me senseless in an argument. I would never back down from what ive said and if you think that was a personal attack you must be joking and i dont mean joking like most of your comments either.

tell you what go get a life then maybe try and get an education, hows that.

your major problem is that you seem to think that because you believe something (i.e your opinion)  you say it must be true. whereas most of the time nothing could be further from the truth.

so tell you what why dont you sit down before you get hurt.


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## FrgMstr (Apr 12, 2002)

Valrus

Fair enough, you dont trust MS, Regarding my Grammar i know, im typing quickly and am putting no thought into grammar.

I dont intend to use grammar to make you side with me just Facts thats all, this isnt a CV its a casual forum hence little effort is put into me spelling or Grammar.


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## ulrik (Apr 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RacerX _
> *FrgMstr, don't leave!
> 
> You used to be my favorite Troll <tear>, now you are just some sorta pathetic wipping-boy.
> ...



At the beginning, I thought FrgMstr knows what he is talking about, but as you also noticed, Racer, he just drops a subject as soon as he realised that he talked shit, instead if admitting it. He's just a slightly better ManicDVLN. And now he starts personal, pointless attacks...well, PC trolls are all the same.


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## RacerX (Apr 12, 2002)

See, this is what I mean by senseless.

Can some find me a fresh troll, this one is now completely defenceless, and that just kills the fun of it all.

And FrgMstr, you are putting _no_ thought into your posts (not just the grammar part). And your fact content is worse than your grammar (but I didn't point out the grammar)


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## RacerX (Apr 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ulrik _
> *...well, PC trolls are all the same. *



This is a sad day, isn't it?


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## ulrik (Apr 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RacerX _
> *
> 
> This is a sad day, isn't it?  *



Why?


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## RacerX (Apr 12, 2002)

All the good trolls are now gone (at least the ones that come here).


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## FrgMstr (Apr 12, 2002)

Ulrik, Racer

I figured you two out long time ago, well Racer only a few mins ago when his true colours came out.

Is that all you can say Racer, sounds to me like you are defeated, yet another example of you thinking something and actually believing it is true.

again nothing is further from it.


and ive never ran away from a thread before, its when it turns too mindless dribble that i leave, i could say actually that on more then one occation it is you that has ran from a thread which i had finished.

the truth hurts boys, not that i care really.

i mean at the end of the day it wasnt me comparing WebObjects to the most used/followed/respected Development enviroment there is. yet the man himself accuses me of being senseless LMAO


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## ulrik (Apr 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RacerX _
> *All the good trolls are now gone (at least the ones that come here). *



Yeah, sad but true. But we still have Neyo, then again, he never was a troll, more a Mac user who didn't knew that he was a Mac user  

Well, Racer, let's leave this one on his retreat and get back to Herve's, shall we?


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## FrgMstr (Apr 12, 2002)

Racer i would never leave because of something you said, you really do think highly of yourself.

you need to spend some more time in the real world.


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## FrgMstr (Apr 12, 2002)

yes run boys run.

gotta give it too you ulrik atleast you know when youve lost, pity i cant say the same about racer.

I mean i know when ive lost, its just that it doesnt happen often, what can i say.


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## RacerX (Apr 12, 2002)

> _by the panic stricken FrgMstr_
> *and ive never ran away from a thread before, its when it turns too mindless dribble that i leave, i could say actually that on more then one occation it is you that has ran from a thread which i had finished.*



Earlier in this very thread...



> *I only comment on worth while subjects if you havent noticed which is why i only post here about once every six months ( says something in itself ),*



You spend most of your time running from this forum. If you are ready, lets get back to the subject at hand. 



> *the truth hurts boys, not that i care really.*



So you are hurting now? I wanted to crush your sprit, but not to hurt you.  



> *i mean at the end of the day it wasnt me comparing WebObjects to the most used/followed/respected Development enviroment there is. yet the man himself accuses me of being senseless LMAO*



Some one who believes that .NET is the _most used/followed/respected Development enviroment there is_ need some something to bring him back to his senses. You look dizzy, maybe you should rest before make any more statement that make you look bad.



> *I mean i know when ive lost, *



Sad day for Trolls everywhere.


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## ulrik (Apr 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by FrgMstr _
> *yes run boys run.
> 
> gotta give it too you ulrik atleast you know when youve lost, pity i cant say the same about racer.
> ...



Dream on  Why not start selling OSes? ROTFLMAO

Stay in your little Microsoft world where everything is good! We all know now that everything Not-Microsoft is bad, evil, slow, expensive and stupid. 
Hail to Microsoft. 

...say, do you use AOL?


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## RacerX (Apr 12, 2002)

First rounds on me Ulrik.

(maybe if we give him some time he can actually post content again)

Get some rest there Fraggy.

(sad, very sad  )


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## FrgMstr (Apr 12, 2002)

ulrik you said it.

Racer, you can try and twist word as much as you want it still doesnt take away the fact that you have lost.

live with it.


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## ulrik (Apr 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RacerX _
> *First rounds on me Ulrik.
> 
> (maybe if we give him some time he can actually post content again)
> *



I'd call it a technical KO.

OK, enough of this, I have some work to do.  (in FrgMstr's eyes I am "running now from this thread because I now that I've been beat")


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## vic (Apr 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by FrgMstr _
> *Man you are full of yourself arent you, tell you what you can sit back in your i know all world and laugh at my posts, i dont care Ill just sit back and laught at your Ignorance, LOL.
> 
> what you gonna do now, do what you ussually do and call me Ignorant back or something and say my comments apply only to me, please.
> ...



ok. 1. have you actually used tose peaces of software?
2. why do you think that popularity = quality? NEVER has popularity equaled quaity! what is the most popular band in the us? whao is the most popular girl singer? are they good? they can't even write thir own songs! trust pwople don't use windows because it's good, they use it because they don't know about anything else out there. or they bump into peope like you and then you tell them to buy windows. 

an what the hell is it with device drivers in webobjects? is somebody going to write a device driver for apps hosted on other servers? this is internet app devlopment. if can usee the free dev tools if i need to write a device driver.


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## vic (Apr 12, 2002)

ok, lets not fight, i think this is one of those Microsoft ID 10 T problems... or maybe the problem is between the chair and the keyboard. anyway. it's going to take a while to fix it.


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## FrgMstr (Apr 12, 2002)

Ulrik, again you said it,

Vic, popularity does not always mean it the best i know, but in the case of VS i have to disagree, in my opinion it is the best.

and yes i have used the products i have mentioned.

just the other day i recommended a Mac to my Grandfather, all he want to do is surf the internet and DTP, he doesnt develope software play the latest games or any of the other things PC's are better for so i reccomended a Mac, not that PCs dont do what i mentioned well. I just thought he might like a Mac.


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## ulrik (Apr 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by FrgMstr _
> [B
> Vic, popularity does not always mean it the best i know, but in the case of VS i have to disagree, in my opinion it is the best.
> [/B]



Now you said what I was waiting for! In your opinion. VS is a very good development environment, no doubt about that. So is Apple's Project Builder. For example, the Interface Builder from Apple is in my opinion the best tool I ever saw to - well - build GUIs. But I have no doubt that somebody else might think it stinks. So, do I force my opinion on others? Why should I?

Development environments are different, and everybody has a different taste. 
But is VS THE best? I don't know, and I doubt that you know. It might be the best for you. And it might be the best YOU have used yet. But does this make it THE best? You are insisting that it is, that you are right, and RacerX is wrong. That's what bugs me. I have no problem with somebody criticizing the Mac platform (after all, that's what you are doing all the time). No platform is perfect. But you always try to make us belief that you're choice of OS / development platform is the best there is. Same goes for the .NET idea. Sure, it is a great technological invention. But it also has it's flaws and errors (I just wanna mention the .NET-virus written by the US women which killed the technet library from MS). If you would tolerate the opinions of others and not immiditealy mark them as "wrong" because they differ from yours, we could debate this topic. But since you participated in this thread, you only showed us that you are right, and we have to be wrong because we have a different opinion. That's no basis for a discussion.


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## lonny (Apr 12, 2002)

I think poor little Fraggy is a badly written .NET bot

Gimme a beer.


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## ksuther (Apr 12, 2002)

May I say OMG? I look at this thread in the morning, and when I get home from school, there's at LEAST 60 more posts than before! Seems like RacerX and Frg just started using this thread as Flame-IM


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## FrgMstr (Apr 12, 2002)

yes ulrik, in my opinion, that was not the first time i stated it was my opinion, however i also stated that i feel my opinion is quite an educated one since i have actually used most of the other Environments as also stated earlier. 

I therefore feel my opinion in this particular subject carries more weight then just anyones opinion which is what you are trying too make it out as(if you know what i mean).

heres an interesting article .Net relatedish article

http://www.sys-con.com/java/articleprint.cfm?id=1401

goes on about MS C# and the possible concequences for Java.


P.S the article has noting to do with my opinion ont he subject just thought it would make good reading for a few of you. Probably not RacerX cos he knows it all anyway, or atleast he likes to think so.


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## ulrik (Apr 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by FrgMstr _
> *yes ulrik, in my opinion, that was not the first time i stated it was my opinion, however i also stated that i feel my opinion is quite an educated one since i have actually used most of the other Environments as also stated earlier.
> 
> I therefore feel my opinion in this particular subject carries more weight then just anyones opinion which is what you are trying too make it out as(if you know what i mean).*



So you basically say that only because you red something about .NET and have used the development environments (as did I, at least most of them), the opinions of others are wrong, or less important? Or not as important? I have used VS far longer than I have used Macs. So. Is my opinion now "more important"?
If a die-hard Photoshop user, who used Photoshop all his life and thinks it is the greatest product out there, meets somebody who gets the same work done in Corels Graphics Suite, which opinion is more important. The one from the Photoshop user because Photoshop is more widely known/used? Sorry, I really can't follow your "logic". And apart from that, it is still no reason why you wouldn't discuss your opinion with somebody. Instead you say "my opinion is right, that's why I don't have to discuss it, and everybody who say my opinion is wrong gets flamed". Great way of communication. 

You walk around like you are the only person in this forum who knows what he is talking about, and since everything you say is right, you don't have to discuss it, since everybody else either says "yes, great FrgMstr, you are right" or is wrong because he doesn't share your opinion. And you acuse RacerX that he thinks high of himself. I am tired of this. I had this discussion with you over and over and over again. FrgMstr, I run! You have won. There is no way to discuss with you, you are impolite and intolerant. I give up. You have won. You are right. Always. You are the centre of the universe.


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## FrgMstr (Apr 12, 2002)

again Ulrik, i think you are serious about a discussion and then you dont seem to understand what is said, i take it youre not english or something.

I explained my opinion to you very nicely, but once again you show your arrogance.

in which case yes i think you should go and leave the discussion too firstly someone who can interpret the english language and secondly someone not so opiniated as yourself who also doesnt tend to see in others what he want to see and not what is actually there.

Bye Bye Ulrik.

1 down 1 to go


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## ulrik (Apr 12, 2002)

I would discuss  with you if you wouldn't flame everyone as soon as you he doesn't have the same opinion as you. But for no, 2 down, 0 to go. You must feel great!


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## RacerX (Apr 12, 2002)

> _by the still dazed and confused FrgMstr_
> *however i also stated that i feel my opinion is quite an educated one since i have actually used most of the other Environments as also stated earlier.
> 
> I therefore feel my opinion in this particular subject carries more weight then just anyones opinion which is what you are trying too make it out as(if you know what i mean).*
> ...



Okay FlameMstr, which is it? First you are saying that you know everything and than say that I think I know every thing? Have you read your posts? Have you no self-respect? This is so sad, I thought you would have some sense about you a few hours later. Sad.



> _FlameMstr best arguments of today (remember his opinion carries more weight than anyone)_
> *Man you are full of yourself arent you... i dont care Ill just sit back and laught at your Ignorance, LOL.
> -------------------------------------------
> Ignorance is bliss eh RacerX, well i dont know but id like too know is it.
> ...



Come on Fraggy, this is such a poor substitute for content. You really are a poor reflection on the state of Trolls today. I mean even ManicDVN would offer up some supporting information between personal attacks. But I digress.



> _one of FlameMstr most confusing sets of statements today_
> *i feel my opinion is quite an educated one since i have actually used most of the other Environments as also stated earlier.*
> 
> _and_
> ...



So which is it Fraggy? Wasn't it also your opinion that _Apple doesn't have any development suite to match it_, only to be shown an example of one you seemed oblivious to.



> _claimed by FlameMstr_
> *i dont mind arguing all day, it gives me a break from my studies and a bit of fun.*



I guess you just didn't want to argue today then. Because later you tell us you don't feel a need to.

Not to rub your nose in it, Fraggy, but have you actually gone back and read what you posted today? It was truly your poorest showing of mental ability to date (and that is not even bringing up the emotional instability that seem very apparent). Maybe a good nights sleep would help you.

This is so sad, so very sad.


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## FrgMstr (Apr 13, 2002)

Racer

there you go again taking Quotes and then making a comment about each quote which has absolutely no relevence to the quote youve taken. please try and make some sense if youre gonna come back into this thread.

And its called sleep Racer, a human needs it didnt you know that why ive been gone for a few hours. then again i forgot i have to spell everything out to you and then you still dont understand.

Im still laughing now Racer you really are a joke nothing you say and imean nothing makes sense you contracdict yourself all the time. I mean you call me the FlameMaster but when i make a perfectly polite non bashing post in another thread you try to start an argument again.

Is your life that lacking that you get your kicks by starting arguments online, you know you probably need a woman or something i dont know but i wish youluck in finding it.

your only problem here is that normally you may be able to irritate people etc(you know to fullfil your sad existence ) but i just laugh at you, YOU are a joke. 


Please by all means keep the jokes coming, i think im gonna start printing these off and taking em to work so you can brighten up the day of more then one person, i almost feel guilty hogging you all to myself.


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## AdmiralAK (Apr 13, 2002)

wow  ...
6 pages of this stuff !!??!!?!
well I will make my completelly unrelated comments here and let you all flame eachother 
I was talking on the subject with a friend and classmate of mine that works for a company doing M$ development (mostly drivers I think), and they are working on upgrading drivers to 2k/XP/.net.  Somehow he was SO convinced that they would have mac .net framework out as well, but I seriously doubt it.  Of course he is one of those people that sees nothing wrong with M$ lol 



Admiral


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## RacerX (Apr 13, 2002)

Fraggy, poor sad Fraggy,

The wonderful thing about this is that it _is_ a public forum. People are seeing this stuff. I just figure that at some point in time you are going to wake up and read what you've been posting and either (1) run from this forum out of complete embarrassment, or (2) reengage me in an actual content filled argument.

I'll admit it though, watching you post is a ton of fun (specially knowing that others _are_ watching this). As for you laughing this stuff off, your tone seems to be saying something different. The best part of this is seeing your next post because it tells me just how upset you really are. I do have fun getting under your skin Fraggy, but I would rather meet you head on with facts, which you retreated from after only a couple post (that did hurt). I love pounding you with facts, I just never thought that you could be such an emotional wreck after a couple post (you didn't brake down that fast in the past, so I am worried about your mental health, you are currently my favorite plaything). 

I truly want to think that your current poor showing is actually because of lack of sleep or some chemical dependance, because then it wouldn't be an actual reflection of you.

And I'm sorry that you don't like my commentary on your quotes, maybe you should be more careful about what you say in public in the future (_Note: I don't actually mean that, I really want you to keep posting the way you have been_  ).



> _by Fraggy_
> *Please by all means keep the jokes coming, i think im gonna start printing these off and taking em to work so you can brighten up the day of more then one person, i almost feel guilty hogging you all to myself.*



Just to let you know, there is an easier way... e-mail a link to the thread! Of course then you wouldn't be able to edit out your most embarrassing moments. Besides, I sure that half the reason you are taking those post with you to work is to ask for help (maybe this will signal the possible beginning of Fraggy posting content again, it could happen  ). Hopefully you have taken this time to learn about Web Objects... oh, wait that is right, you don't need to because your _opinion in this particular subject carries more weight then anyones_.

And please, please, take some time to post. Your posts have been very hard to read, and you seem to think that you are saying one thing when you are actually posting another. I can only comment on what you are actually posting here Fraggy, not what you are thinking. You should have your computer read your posts back to you, you just might see what other people are laughing at (and if you do it before posting, we may actually get a clear thought out of you).


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## vic (Apr 13, 2002)

C'mon PEOPLE! can't we just get along?! where is the LOVE? the KISSES? the HUGS?


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## FrgMstr (Apr 13, 2002)

i must say Racer, i am impresed with the way in which you can repeat the same thing over and over again, each time changing it slightly so as to make it appear like you actually have a come back, which of course you dont.

Go on try and rehash something else youve said before into your next reply.


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## RacerX (Apr 13, 2002)

If you mean my repeated request for you to give up on the personal attacks (which you are not very good at) and return to a content based argument (which you are marginally better at than you are with personal attacks), yes I have been.

Even though you making a fool of yourself is quite entertaining, it takes the sport out of it for me. I would much rather see you embarrassed by pointing out your lack of knowledge on the subject than watch you stammer your way to your next _zinger_. You have been content less for the last three pages. Is that going to change in the near future (I assume you've been asking others for help because you can't handle this on your own).


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## FrgMstr (Apr 13, 2002)

Jeesh you dont even try and prove me wrong. The prosecution rests on that one.

I cant beleive you think i would actually ask for help with some forum convo, you really do take this stuff seriously dont you, i mean come on why on earth would i ask someone to help me argue with some bloke on a Mac forum who doesnt know his backside form his elbow.

Give me a break, the reason this thread no longer has content is because you make it so, you could easily reintroduce content by amazing me with your .Net knowledge not to mention all things computing of course.


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## RacerX (Apr 13, 2002)

> _Fraggy's idea of a content filled responce (from back on page 3)_
> *Man you are full of yourself arent you, tell you what you can sit back in your i know all world and laugh at my posts, i dont care Ill just sit back and laught at your Ignorance, LOL.
> 
> what you gonna do now, do what you ussually do and call me Ignorant back or something and say my comments apply only to me, please.*



I hadn't said anything at that point for you to get your nickers in a twist over, what was your excuse for dropping the content again?


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## RacerX (Apr 13, 2002)

10 minutes to respond to a single line... I hope you are spell check this post.


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## FrgMstr (Apr 13, 2002)

I think the quote YOU provided from ME on page 3 pretty much explains my response for me.

So why arent you reintroducing content then? come on you want discussion start it then.


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## FrgMstr (Apr 13, 2002)

Come on racer lets not let this degrade further by bringing spelling into it.


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## RacerX (Apr 13, 2002)

Lets try this again then, shall we...


> _by FrgMstr_
> *you see i forgot i have to spell things out to you there i was assuming i didnt. ok when saying VS is the best out there, you said compared to ???
> 
> well
> ...



Seeing as WebObjects uses many of the same development tools as Cocoa (which was Yellow Box before that, and OpenStep before that), something tells me that you just might be able to. But we were talking about development, deployment and accessing .NET. Please address these issues in your next fun filled post. 



> *who cares if its won awards lets see how many people actually use it compared to VS.*



But you said Second to NONE, you did say that didn't you? By who's standards? The world is full of lets sees, WebObjects is proven. 

I think that is about where you stopped posting content, why not respond to these points first and then we can try something harder (we don't want you to throw another three page temper tantrum again now do we).  

(And sorry, I wouldn't bring up the spelling thing again... that was to low. Again sorry)


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## FrgMstr (Apr 13, 2002)

Like i said before my knowledge of webobjects is very limited (i.e. i know nothing about it) however i do feel that since its name is WebObjects i would be very surprised if you could develop device drivers with it. (if i am wrong and WebObjects is used to develop a broad range of software such as the purpose of Visual studio i stand corrected, in which case we can then get on with comparing it with VS)


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## ksuther (Apr 13, 2002)

Um, can we please get along and SHUT UP? This is really stupid


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## RacerX (Apr 13, 2002)

We are getting back to content, so could the peanut galley please be quite!

Sorry about that FrgMstr.


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## RacerX (Apr 13, 2002)

Okay, here are three apps running in Windows that were developed for WebObjects/Yellow Box. They are TIFFany 3 (a Photoshop like app), NeXplorer (a NEXTSTEP like file browser), and TextEdit (a nice full featured word processor). The point is that these are "Mac only" apps running on Windows. WebObjects was designed to work with a number of platforms. 

Think about Java apps developed on Windows, you may not know this, but many look for a Windows registry file in order to run via a browser. That is the type of thing that scares me about .NET. That shouldn't happen with Java because it was designed to be cross-platform, but people don't use it that way. That is what I completely expect from .NET. Just like Visual J++, this is in theory a cross-platform development environment, but in practice... it is Windows only.


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## vic (Apr 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RacerX _
> *We are getting back to content, so could the peanut galley please be quite!
> 
> Sorry about that FrgMstr. *



what's with you and peanuts?


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## RacerX (Apr 13, 2002)

The _peanut gallery_ hangs just above the stage in a theatre and is were people throw peanuts at the performers when they are unhappy with the show.


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## vic (Apr 13, 2002)

oh


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## FrgMstr (Apr 13, 2002)

OK, i see where youre going there. I know anything written with J++ does only work with the MS JVM which of course only makes it useable in Windows, I too dont see the point in that and as you say it does go against the entire principle behind Java.

I did however read a while ago on www.slashdot.org about one of the main developers in Gnome saying that he quite liked the .Net idea in principle and that if he has his way that will be the direction in which Gnome will be heading in the future(Of course this caused a huge stir in Linux Land). Hopefully this is an indication that the situation with J++ is not going to be mirrored with .Net.

How this stands now that HailStorm has been cancelled i dont know though.


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## FrgMstr (Apr 13, 2002)

Heres a good article i just spotted

http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/industry/04/12/microsoft.mac.idg/index.html

says MS will intro .Net for Mac platform

Havent read it all yet though.


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## RacerX (Apr 13, 2002)

Like I said, my fear is based on my past experiences with Microsoft (and their lawyers  ).

This is not to say that Apple has been saintly, it hasn't. Before Apple acquire NeXT, the landscape was quite different. OpenStep looked like it was going to be the wave of the future. You had OPENSTEP for Mach (an operating system that ran on NeXT, Intel, SPARC and PA-RISC hardware platforms), OpenStep Solaris (an alternative GUI/development environment to CDE and OpenWindows in Solaris), and OpenStep Enterprise (which included WebObjects, which was a runtime environment for Solaris and Windows NT). Sun even bought a suite of office apps (from Lighthouse) much like they would later do with StarOffice, to prepare for the changes that they thought would be happening. 

Apple buying NeXT ended all that. OpenStep Solaris ended with version 1.1 (and would only run on Solaris 2.4-2.6). Apple dropped support for Solaris as a development platform for what was renamed Yellow Box. The one thing that didn't change was the ability access WebObjects from any platform.

There are few who provide authoring solutions for PDF on platforms other than Windows and Macs, but you can still view PDF files on almost every platform. Access to information (specially via the web) needs to be protected for all platforms no matter how small the user base.

I would love to think that Microsoft is going to be a changed company, and .NET would be a positive contribution to computing, but after spending time with Microsoft's attorneys over the last couple weeks I honestly have problems holding out hope.

This is really not just a Mac vs Windows thing for me. I work with a number of other environments (Irix and Solaris are my primary other operating systems), there is an _MSHTML_ that is designed to only work with Internet Explorer, I use Netscape on both of these systems, which makes it hard to view those pages. And we shouldn't forget when MSN turned away people because their browsers identified themselves as something other than IE (or Netscape 4.7). Why have servers that turn away browsers by other companies? Where is the point of this feature of IIS? Again, this type of action by Microsoft makes me fear what they might do with .NET (even if it doesn't hurt the Mac platform).


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## vic (Apr 13, 2002)

ahhhhh.... you have summed well the reasons why most of us here hate MS, the sad thing is that only the people that hate MS and use other platforms know or aknowlege that MS is probably, in comparison to most companies out there, the Devil of the IT world.


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## vic (Apr 13, 2002)

and i appreciate you both have calmed down a bit and stopped insulting eachother. that did not help any of your arguments, be it bad or good.


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## rinse (Aug 10, 2002)

.Mac?


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