# Why does such a small % of the population use Macs?



## chemistry_geek (Jan 9, 2002)

I've been thinking about this for a while now, and now it's time to ask a question.  What is it about people who use Macintoshes so steadfastly in the face of adversity?  The only reasons that I can think of are personality traits arising from specific genotypes, social dynamics, and population dynamics (gene frequencies).  There is something unique about a small group of people that begs the question "OK if they're different (no pun intended on Apple's ad campaign), why are they different?"  Are there certain personality-determining genes that manifest themselves i.e. "leadership" genes, as opposed to being part of the population of drones in the other 95%.  I cannot use the argument for intellect because artists and scientists use not only the Wintel platform, but also the Macintosh platform (and other platforms).  I think that my question goes much deeper than personal preferences of the individiual, especially with the fact that Mac software is difficult to come by in the common market place, i.e. BestBuy, K-Mart, Target, etc...  It seems that no matter what news is obtained about "advances" in the PC "Wintel" world, a small percentage will always use Macs.  Why is this?  As a side note, most people I've met who use Macs, seem very bright, are individualistic, are confident in the abilities, and "don't seem to follow the crowd".

Attached are some links for REAL/Professional Personality Inventory Testing.  The Myers-Briggs Personality Inventory will classify your personality into one of 16 types.  Some people can be on teh threshold of two or more types.

Myers-Briggs Personality Test Online:
http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes1.htm

An excellent website to explain the Myers-Briggs Personality Typing:
http://typelogic.com/

Working out your Myers-Briggs type:
http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/tt/t-articl/mb-simpl.htm

Myers-Briggs Personality Typing FAQ:
http://www.ibiblio.org/personality/faq-mbti.html

Incidently, my personality type occures in about 1% of the population.  There must be some component in our personalities to choose a product that the other 95% of the population claims they will not use.  Why and what is it?

What ideas do you have about this subject?  I don't want to hear "Macs are great, PC's suck" - no mud slinging and flambaiting.  I'm sure a few others here reading this forum would like to know, including Apple Computer.


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## Dinkmeister (Jan 9, 2002)

The answer is quite simple. Its the cost. 

I believe that most people (especially families with budgets) look at the price before looking at the specs. Unfortunatly price does not seem to concern Steve Jobs.


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## FrgMstr (Jan 9, 2002)

Ive just taken the test it's quite good. I know a mac user, i can agree with you he goes against the grain and doesnt really care what people think of him.

You get what you see basically.


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## benpoole (Jan 9, 2002)

Hey dinkmeister - what did chemistry_geek say, hmmm???



> I don't want to hear "Macs are great, PC's suck" - no mud slinging and flambaiting. I'm sure a few others here reading this forum would like to know, including Apple Computer.


I'm a long time Mac (home) and PC (work) user. And I'm not rich, so no, cost is not the factor!

Oh yeah, eNJF... 2-3% of the population, "pedagogue" type.

But I ain't a teacher


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## chemistry_geek (Jan 9, 2002)

Well I suppose I'll be the first to share my Myers-Briggs info.  I fall in the INTJ/INTP/ISTJ spectrum.  INTJ occurs in about 1% of the population and make excellent scientists, as one my college professors and a psychologist once told me.


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## fiznutz (Jan 9, 2002)

I am INTP character so im an excellent bookstand as my father once told me


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## twyg (Jan 9, 2002)

INTP is apparently coming up more and more. 
Perhaps Steve could use this demographic, and make Macs appeal to the other personality types as well.


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## Dradts (Jan 9, 2002)

I think Mac users are mostly people who don't like Microsoft and its behavior on the software market. Its just that Apple, their Software and their Hardware, seem to b more friendlier and not as warlike as M$ is.


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## Jadey (Jan 9, 2002)

Initial cost may be a factor for some, there is also the chip speed. Mhz myth presentation aside, it's hard for resellers to sell a 600mhz machine when the PC next to it is a 1 GHZ. But I think the true answer is conformity. That everyone else uses  wintel is what is on their minds. The fact that a Mac can work just as well or better in most environments is something they just don't know about.


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## RacerX (Jan 9, 2002)

I think that cost is a very poor argument because it was not really a factor after about 1995 (you could get a Mac for the same price as a mid range PC).

What is usually overlooked is peer pressure (both for PCs and for Macs) and personal investment. Because I work on most platforms (and want to keep my clients) I do not usually say that I think their purchase was either good or bad. No one wants to hear that they could have gotten something better for less, or that the expert that they are paying to fix their system doesn't use the same platform. Ever ask a new user "Why did you buy a PC?" The usual response is that everyone else they know uses one. Also people have been lead to believe that there is more software for PC (even though they may never own anything else beyond MS Office) and take that to mean that there is NO software for Macs. And lets not forget that every couple years the press predicts that Apple is going out of business soon (even though NO other computer industry company, other than Microsoft, has cash reserves greater than Apple).

Why do people start is a far more curious question. Almost everyother platform has had great advantages over Windows. Why has Apple succeeded where other fail? Again, peer pressure (most of my friends use Macs), work environments (I had Macs around me in school and work), and support for the underdog (without much personal risk on investment). 

Why do people stay? Because people like our friend ManicDVLN have talked down Macs to such a degree to anyone that is within ear shot that when they actually use one, they can't help but be completely amazed at what you really can do on a computer.


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## ScottW (Jan 9, 2002)

I guess I fall into the less than 1% of the population mark.

Cost is not a factor when choosing Macs. I think you have 2 aspects of what make up Mac users...

1) Using what their industry uses. For many graphic designers, they prefer the mac becuase the graphic industry prefers the Mac. They have a reason to "belong" to the Mac Users ranks because of their interest. These people may not be #2.

2) Using what they like personally over what everyone else is doing. These people tend to be different from the norm in many different ways. If everyone buys a Eurka vacuum, they might by a Hoover because of its great ability to suck over other vacuums. If all their friends purchase BMW's or spend money on an expensive car for image, this type of person may by a nice car, but go with something like a Oldsmobile Intrigue for the purpose of leg room. They tend to be matter of fact and have an opinion and not afraid to show it. These same people, would also use Macs if 95% of the popular used Macs. It is not based on being in the minority, but using what is best in their opinion, majority or not.

Admin


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## jens@dna (Jan 9, 2002)

You will never see an entire population wearing Gucci and Prada. It's the same thing. It's a matter taste and priorities. I rather buy a Powerbook G4 that I will propably use for at least 3 or 4 years and always feel confident and proud of having than buying a new ugly PC every six month. Apple will probably never have a marketshare larger than 10%, because the other 90% of the population is probably to busy listenening to shitty music, eating junk food, watching Ricky Lake and shopping at Wal-Mart to even care. (They don't even drive european cars)


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## themacko (Jan 9, 2002)

Whoa whoa whoa .. way too deep.  I'll give you the real reason people buy PC's instead of Macs.  In fact, I'll give you a few:

Cost.  Macs are generally a bit more expensive than PCs.  And a lot of people are cheap.
Compatability (myth).  Over 95% of all PC (who have never used a Mac) do not know that you can trade files between the two computers.  IE, a Word doc on a Mac will work with a Word doc on a Windows machine.
They don't know.  People just do not know that Macintosh computers are just as powerful and can do just as much as PCs.  They think that Macs are completely incompatable with the real business world and they are mostly used as learning tools or for graphics.  That's it.
Patience.  Even if people do realize a lot about Macs, they don't want to take the time to either learn a new OS, or put up with the differences between Windows and Mac.  Lots of software is made only for windows and therefore they see Windows as the standard.  Why pay more for a computer that essentially does less?
That is what I have observed from the many college students I'm around.  And actually, college students are more open than adults, they generally want something 'different.'  Thats why I got a Mac .. actually I was fed up with Windows crashing and worrying about getting a virus.  But people are just undeducated at how much potential Macs have and how compatable they REALLY are in today's 'Windows' world of business.


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## Ralph J. (Jan 9, 2002)

i'm a INTJ.

some reasons why i prefer the mac platform:
 i prefer quality over quantity.
 i don't mind paying more for quality.
 i always pull for the underdog.


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## ScottW (Jan 9, 2002)

INTJ here! YO!


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## AdmiralAK (Jan 9, 2002)

hey this is what I am 
Your Type is 
ESTJ
Extroverted	Sensing	Thinking	Judging
Strength of the preferences % 
44	33	44	22
ESTJ type description by D.Keirsey
ESTJ type description by J. Butt
Qualitative analysis of your type formula
 You are:

*	moderately expressed extrovert
*	moderately expressed sensing personality
*	moderately expressed thinking personality
*	slightly expressed judging personality


--- now on why people dont use macs ---
simple, take a look at the market.  When someone goes out to buy a Personal Computer, the go to sears, they go to best buy, they go to circuit city.  There is a smug culture in these places and you are not going to see macs there, or if you do see macs people are ill equiped to explain the details to you if need be.

On the other hand, the dells, compaqs, gateways, etc have more of a "following" in such stores so people go and buy wintels because the sales man will thrust them onto that platform, they get used to it, they fall into the "trap" and become part of the PC using culture "fearing" macs because they are different.

Some of these places are so pathetic they dont even know what BSD and linux are, or what is the best distro and THEY HAVE IT ON THEIR SHELVES!


that my friends is WHY people dont buy macs.


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## edX (Jan 9, 2002)

now who would have ever guessed admiral was extroverted 

but i think his reasons are very sound ones. i can say that i know of several friends and family that entered the world of computing in exactly that way without ever so much as asking me anything.

i will post my myers-briggs when i can find it. not going to retake it. too long. i will just say that it is considered a very reliable and valid personality inventory. keep in mind that the results are not static. you are likely to change over the years. hold onto your scores and try to retake it about every 5 yrs. you might find it interesting.


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## austrini (Jan 9, 2002)

<--- INTJ  , hooray


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## aled (Jan 9, 2002)

INTJ here too.

How can this be?


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## AdmiralAK (Jan 9, 2002)

any others like me ? ESTJ ? he he 
Waiting for responces 


On an aside note, well -- more to the point -- there is a gross misconception that there is a lack of software on teh macside, perpetuated by th same guys who dont sell macs and are least qualified to give out mac information to perspective newbie buyers.  -- the only place to get the most accurate info on macs is an apple store, but the problem is that most people are into the "pc appliance notion"  they go to sears to get a dryer, see a computer, get all fired up about it, and they dont do any window shopping -- the  -- what happens ?  commishion selling at it's best   (at the mac's expense, both image and financial wise)


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## bubbajim (Jan 9, 2002)

This is what I got:

Your Type is 
ISTJ

Introverted	Sensing	Thinking	Judging
56	              11	         44        	78


Qualitative analysis of your type formula
 You are:

*	moderately expressed introvert
*	slightly expressed sensing personality
*	moderately expressed thinking personality
*	very expressed judging personality


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## chemistry_geek (Jan 9, 2002)

When I first took the the Myers-Briggs test as a sophomore in college, one of my biology professors administered the test.  He expressed his wishes to the class that if anyone knew about the test to please not tell anyone else what it was about.  He later went over parts of the test and what they mean.  However, I'll never forget the expression on his face when he saw my raw scores.  He said "Oh my gosh!" with a strange look on his face.  I was concerned.  I thought something was wrong with me, like I was some freak or deviant.  I asked one of his graduate students what it meant and she would not say as she smiled back to me.  My professor took me under his wing, so to speak, and was rather helpful early on my career.  He was rather pleased to find another INTJ like himself, only I was a true blue extreme INTJ.

Regarding the sales people luring and trapping people into fearing Macs, I agree completely.  My parents who are into photography, asked me about whether to buy a PC or a Mac. I told them my opinion, especially since they were going to be working with graphics.  They spoke to several people at different companies around town.  One person suggested Macs because of the graphics software and the rest of the sales people said to go with PC (of course).  Unfortunately, when my parents were looking into buying a computer price was not a factor but with Apple being close to death a few years back, my parents didn't want to take the risk of spending thousands of dollars on a computer by a company that might not be around very long.  Hence they are now slaves to Bill Gates.  They have had at different times serious problems with their PC, all M$'s fault (at least they bought a REAL IBM and not some knock-off brand).


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## edX (Jan 9, 2002)

i am guessing that whoever moniters that site will be extremely puzzled why so many INTJ's are showing up so close together!!  it will likely throw all their statistics into a flurry and they will postulate numerous theories that range from the influence of the moon to cold weather to the site malfunctioning 

so more folks should be taking this and really throw them off!!!

btw - i still haven't found my scores, but i also was just like the person who gave it to me. i know i am introverted (just barely) and feeling. the others i don't recall.


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## buggs1a (Jan 9, 2002)

software. people say this. mac dont have the software so i buy pc. pc's are cheaper and faster. those are i think the only 2 arguments why anyone would buy a pc. the problem is the mac is as Steve said not about speed anymore but what you can do with it and the mac is fast enough for doing those things. somewhat fast enough.  also gamers are better on the pc then mac cus there's a lot more, so there it is again, more software on pc. if what you do is on mac then people should get macs. if not then get pc. most is on mac though cept games really.


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## ManicDVLN (Jan 9, 2002)

If speed doesn't matter why is apple working on the G5?


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## chemistry_geek (Jan 9, 2002)

Whew!

I'm so glad to know that I'm in the good company of intellectuals here at Press 3 (1% of pop. that is INTJ) .  I did not expect to see such a homogeneous population of personality traits.  And I do think there is some correlation with our personality traits and Apple's market share, at least with Apple's current corporate philosophy, pricing, etc...  It does seem to have found a niche among the INTJ's.  As for the other remaining 95% of computer users who were/are bullsh*tted by Bill Gates and his goones, well, I suppose you'll have that, tisk tisk tisk.  I suppose that the bell curve corresponds not only to the general population as far as intellectual ability, but to industries and sectors as well.  I think there is some correlation to be drawn here where "average/mediocre" = "Micro$oft".  Micro$oft only has to be as good as it has to be to the general population to maintain its monopoly.  This is not intended to be flamebait, but I do think there is some correlation at work here.

For anyone who would like to know more about how YOU tick, check out:

http://www.queendom.com/

This place is for the intellectual test junky and has a lot of good tests.


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## edX (Jan 9, 2002)

chemistry_geek  et al. - to clarrify:

the myers-briggs is a personality inventory. it strictly measures personality traits or styles. it measures essentially the same thing as the Rorschach test (inkblots) which is actually more reliable and has greater validity.

it is NOT a measure of IQ in any way, shape or form!!
the two primary valid and reliable measures of intelligence are the WAIS-III (Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale) and Stanford-Binet. 
iq tests you take online do not provide valid measures of IQ

do not confuse the two different kinds of measures.

there are bright, exceptionally intelligent people of all myers-briggs types!!!!!!!!!


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## chemistry_geek (Jan 9, 2002)

Ed:

I'm very familiar with the Myers-Briggs Personality Inventory, the Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale, and the Wechsler Memory Scale.  I've taken all three.  But my point is, if you're reading this forum, you are not likely to fit into the mold of the general population, and, I've never encountered an individual who is both INTJ and developmentally impaired.  That doesn't mean that they don't exist.  And when I refer to someone being developmentally impaired, I mean someone with some developmental impairment from birth arising from a specific genotype or array of alleles that caused the impairment in thinking.  The INTJ personality type implies an individual who has very good abstract reasoning abilities, hence the "NT" in INTJ.  Abstract reasoning is directly correlated with IQ.  Take a look at the Mensa test and try to find patterns in its questions/problems - that is not easy either.  I looked at the test quite some time ago and I'm not a member of Mensa.  I just never had the motivation to pursue attempting to enter that organization.  I think you have to be exceptionally bright to get into it.  Someone on the opposite side of the spectrum of an INTJ, such as an ESFP, would more likely rely on EMOTION for making decisions, which we all know is not exactly sound reasoning.  I think an ESFP would likely be swayed/lured/trapped by the suave charm of a Micro$oft salesperson simply because of their personality, would not investigate other options in detail.  Incidentally, Madonna is a member of Mensa - surprised?  Yeah, me too.

As a side note:
Now, a salesperson working for some large company in the sciences or engineering knows all too well, either by unfortunate experience or trained by management, that scientists can see through bullshit.  They don't have time for it, and most importantly, trust is lost immediately with that representative if untruths are flaunted.  A salesperson working in the sciences must really know his/her background, or else the sale is lost forever.


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## theed (Jan 9, 2002)

Male INTP
11 56 22 11

looking for female
36-24-36-5'11"

I wish your sample size was large enough to be meaningful, but I wonder if you could string this question along on another test and see if you could find correlation on a larger sample size.  You might really have found something.


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## theed (Jan 9, 2002)

My primary business partner, also a Mac fiend, is a strong INTJ ... really, this is ODD.


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## RacerX (Jan 9, 2002)

I went to 3 (back in 1988) and found that it was the worst money I've ever spent on anything. The people were not very nice at all. By the third meeting the only person I was socializing with was my (then) wife.

And what is up with WAIS anyway? 6 test for verbal, 4 for performance? We should want people who DO things rather than people who can just talk about doing. 

I think it was Groucho Marx who said I don't want to be a member of any club that would have me as a member. Maybe he was thinking of Mensa.


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## edX (Jan 10, 2002)

i think if you went to any professional computer show with people who are as into their computing as you all are, you would find that there is  a general disrepresentation of INTJ types. same with a hard science gathering. it is the personality that draws one to to fields like this - a place where one would fit in. Lots of power windows users and techs would be there as well. 
what i am saying is that there is a big leap to correlating mac users with a personality type. and if i had to guess, apple probably has more F types than T as a customer base. Those 6 million imacs have a lot of emotional appeal to them.  not to mention ibooks. and how often on this board do i hear the arguement for owning a mac being "fun" or "nicer". 
also you need to be context specific when you state "ESFP, would more likely rely on EMOTION for making decisions, which we all know is not exactly sound reasoning." this might be true when doing many tasks especially purchasing a computer on a whim which sort of relates to the original question of the thread. but emotional reasoning can be more useful than logic in other areas. when it comes to human relationships, T's are often poorly equiped to make good sound decisions while F's do. there is a developing field around the idea of "emotional intelligence" and there is plenty to show that it is equally as valuable a possesion as what modern IQ tests measure. maybe more so. My guess is that Steve Jobs is an F.
My response has been to your initial statement which implies that INTJ's are at the top of the IQ bell curve. this is not right. there is little evidence to suggest that any personality style is equated with higher IQ. In fact the only correlation known to exist with IQ is another measure of IQ.

I will break for here, but it is so cool that you have gotten in to my area of expertise.


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## lethe (Jan 10, 2002)

INTP


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## edX (Jan 10, 2002)

ok i just went and took the MB over on the site:

                          INFP
	Introverted	Intuitive	Feeling	Perceiving
          Strength of the preferences % 
	                11	56	33    56

which is actually a very suitable profile for a therapist.
it is most likely why i enjoy what i do.
and why i am having a harder time with the dissertation part of the program than i did with previous years!!!

oh and i did know madonna was a mensa member and no it doesn't surprise me at all.  again there are many different ways to use intelligence and high IQ is represented in all personality types.

racerx- the wais-III measures performance and verbal comprehension. but performance has more to do with what chemistry_geek referred to as abstract reasoning while vc is more closely associated with education. it is not neccesarily about doing vs thinking. thinking is involved in both measures.  but to illustrate my point, i gave a wais to a friend as part of my training. while it could not be considered valid, the results confirmed my opinion of my friend. He never finished high school but has owned several of his own businesses. one was very successful for many years.  He scored just below100 on vc and 129 on performance for an overall IQ score of around 110 . his overall would have you believe he is of average intelligence. but when you consider his lack of formal education, the 129 is probably much closer to his real score. For most people there is not more than a 10 point difference between vc and perf. so the overall is more representative.


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## chemistry_geek (Jan 10, 2002)

Ed, this is too cool that you're a therapist.

Now we have an expert here to work out all the details with this thread.  I agree that the Myers-Briggs would detect/capture all the tech heads, power users, etc..., but I still think there must be something in common with computer users who prefer macs and users who prefer PCs.  It may be that their professional careers demand working on that platform, but when given a choice of platforms where identical programs exist on both platforms, some % of the pop always use macs.  I think that some other test is needed to further refine and sift through the INTJ techies.  Perhaps what I'm mentioning can be shown with the current Myers-Briggs through statistical analysis (which is used heavily in psychology), i.e., through the differing degrees/ranges of I's, N's, T's, and J's.  It may just be a more stronger form of perfectionism in being a detail freak, I don't know, but I think something is there.

Regarding F and T making sound decisions in relationships, you are definitely correct there, T's can make married life difficult where F's are much better in relationships.

I know that INTJ aren't any more intelligent than other personality types, there are different types of IQ to measure, i.e. emotional IQ, physical IQ (applies to athletes), etc... I know we all think differently.  What I should have clarified, is that I was glad to be in the company of other INTJ's...birds of a feather flock together.


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## Edge100 (Jan 10, 2002)

Its what Steve Jobs said the other day...Dell is like WalMart.  Its huge, it has everything you really NEED, and its cheap.  Sure, you wont find the best clothes there, but you wont be naked either.

Apple is like The Gap.  The clothes look much better, and are of much better quality, but they cost a bit more and appeal only to a certain percentage of the population who are concerned with how they look and feel, and who realize that paying a little more now will save you the headache of having to mend your clothes all the time (ok, maybe I'm stretching this metaphor)

My wife had a great idea...Jobs sits on the board of the Gap, and Mickey Drexler (GAP C.E.O) sits on Apple's board....it seems to me that these companies share quite a bit in common (e.g. the whole branding thing, the same demographic of customer)...anyway, she thinks there should be some kind of joint effort...put some iMacs in the Gap for people to enjoy while they are in there.  They wouldnt be for sale, but they would increase exposure, which is really what Apple needs (and is doing with the Apple Stores).  Those Gap customers are the people who will buy Macs, so why not let them see how great they are in person.  Who cares about the WalMart customers...you'll never convert them anyway.


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## dlookus (Jan 10, 2002)

INFP

I think the Mac is perfect for people who are visual learners.

I was always a visual person. My father and brother were into the technical stuff when I was a kid, but I was always just playing with the graphics programs. Give me a terminal or Dos and I'll have none of it. I do a lot of programming, but I wasn't the least bit interested in it until you could easily get real visual feedback.

I also think its important that you can use a Mac without knowing how it works. You can instantly use it without feeling overwhelmed. You become savvy over time. This system is better. This is why Linux will never take over the world.


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## RacerX (Jan 10, 2002)

> _ Quote from Ed _
> *racerx- the wais-III measures performance and verbal comprehension. but performance has more to do with what chemistry_geek referred to as abstract reasoning while vc is more closely associated with education. it is not neccesarily about doing vs thinking. thinking is involved in both measures.*



Not doing vs thinking. Verbalization is not synonymous with thinking. Some of us have verbal handicaps, in my case, speaking-hearing is dealt with differently from reading-writing. I have no "inner-voice" while reading and at times don't assign sounds to words. In my research, I was the only person at my school specializing in my area of mathematics (the person supervising me was 1500 miles away at SUNY-Stony Brook), which meant I didn't have anyone to talk about my work to (who would be able to understand it anyway... except Prof. Freedman, but he was in a parallel field) so I had not assigned sounds to a long list of terms which I read and wrote on daily. When my Professor and I finally got together I had to translate everything he was saying as if it was in a foreign language.

As for the test itself, I was given the test on a regular basis from the time I was 8 up to the last time when I was 28 (5 tests at almost 4 year intervals). My verbal score over the series dropped almost 10 points, my performance increased until the last two times when I spiked off the scale (both the last tests where taken when I was spending 24/7 working on differential geometry and differential topology, so the people giving the test didn't seem that surprised). Spatial problem solving IS thinking, be we, as a society do not give it the same weight as the ability to verbalize. I look at people like Admiral (and the like) with envy at their ability to pick up other languages when I have problems with my native language. And the raw knowledge part speaks more to exposure to information than cognitive ability. Like I said, I believe IQ tests are weighted towards the strengths of the people who are making them.

I like chemistry_geek's idea of other types of IQ's (I know he is talking about the seven types in that book by that guy who's name escapes me right now). My sister spent her whole life training to be a professional ballet dancer (which meant she didn't see high school that much), and the test I took didn't take into account my athletic abilities (10 years of track and field, ranking 13th in California in the 110m high hurdles in my last year, after that math took over my life). Again, we are subject to what the designers of the test consider important. 

What is interesting is that it seems to that people with abilities in other areas seem to find Macintoshes to be better computers. I can recall code junkies in high school being VERY happy that computers seem to only work for them. And most my Windows clients talk about other IT people belittling them when they need help (and not explaining what it was that went wrong). Creative people want to be creative. They don't want to have to learn how to use a computer to start creating, and though not to the same degree as it once was, this is still true of Windows today.


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## chemistry_geek (Jan 10, 2002)

I think dlookus may have hit upon something here with visual learners preferring Macs.  I am a visual learner.  I learned of this when I took the Wechsler Memory Scale several years ago.  My visual memory was ranked in the "very superior" range, but my auditory memory was in the "high average" range.  A psychologist explained to me that this is basically genes at work.  There is absolutely nothing that can be done to improve these modalities.  Your brain is hard-wired for these.  Perhaps the Mac (how it works, is organized, graphics, etc...) meshes very well with visual learners.


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## FrgMstr (Jan 10, 2002)

dlookus

When you say visual learners are you a user of NLP (Neuro Linguistic Programming) or is it just a coincidence you used visual as a description.

I ask cos i myself am just getting into NLP and find it quite interesting.


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## dlookus (Jan 10, 2002)

FrgMstr,
Just a coincidence. I've never heard of NLP. You've peeked my interest. I was referring more to Lingo and Actionscript.

chemistry_geek,
I agree. Same with me. I took an IQ test once and scored very high on the non-verbal and average on verbal. My SAT scores are similar, high math average verbal.  The story of my life.


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## RacerX (Jan 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by FrgMstr _
> *When you say visual learners are you a user of NLP (Neuro Linguistic Programming) or is it just a coincidence you used visual as a description.*



So what is NLP (a VERY general description)?


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## ksv (Jan 10, 2002)

I think this is very interesting. Regarding to this test, I'm an INTJ as well.

RacerX, NLP is Neuro Linguistic Programming  hehe


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## AdmiralAK (Jan 10, 2002)

What the hecl ? 
I am stuck in a crowd of INTJs... I feel so lonely 

(lol )


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## FrgMstr (Jan 10, 2002)

NLP is a way of communicating effectively with people, the objective being you the user of NLP being able to make the other person always agree with you etc. (It also has a place in brain washing in the military etc)

It works by analysing people's PTS (Prefered thinking Styles) e.g. Visual, Sound or Physical. which is where i though you got your phrase from.

this is just the dip of a very big iceberg, there is alot to it and training is very expensive. It does pay dividends in the end though, just think of the possibilities in job interviews etc.

Being able to talk to people on their level and adjust to another level at the blink of an eye must be amazing.

Im definately going to take it up seriously when i have more time.

Have a look into it on the Net if you are interested.


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## zots (Jan 10, 2002)

iNFj


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## Aftershock (Jan 10, 2002)

INTJ Here


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## ksv (Jan 11, 2002)

spooky


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## edX (Jan 11, 2002)

ok folks bear with me here. this may take me a few posts just catch up while i was at mwsf today.
1st) NLP is actually a way of enoding new infomation by recreating memories. the person being "reprogramemd" is told to watch the trainers finger as they pass it by the persons visual field. the finger starts in the lower part of the visual field and slopes to the upper part before the pass is completed. (this is hard to explain but easy to demonstrate if we were face to face - very simple motion). while watching the hand the peson being trained is told to imagine an event turning out the way they would have liked it to rather than the way it did. the trainer may also being giving a narative the reinforces the new memory. eg. - you were stung by bee while doing some great accomplishment. since then you have been afraid to try that thing you accomplished again. by reprograming in memory where the bee is a butterfly and flys all round you while you succede you eliminate the subconscious fear to repeat the task. (very simplified but you shouled be able to get the idea.)

this is based upon the behaviors that we make with our eyes while remembering. about 90% or more of people will look down when remembering information. they look up when creating information. there is less evidence that they will look to one side when remembering or creating the truth and the other when making something up. 
hence when you are watching someone's eyes while talking, if they look down they are telling you the truth or at least what they believe to be the truth. if they are rolling their eyes upwared, they are making up what they are saying. 2 things to keep in mind - these kinds of eye movement are subtle not gross and there are some individuals who reverse them.
a friend of mine in school actually made a device using a row of moving lights to replace the hand movement when doing this, making it possible to do without a trainer.

2nd) this idea about visual learning may be more the idea of some common denominator although i think windows has made pc's easy for those of us who learn this way best (yes, i too am one)there is a subtest of the wais-III that tests for this skill.  it is called digit symbol. i am sorry ican't explain more about this test, but i am bound by professional ethics not to reveal the details of this kind of testing. i would ask the rest of you to think twice before adding anymore yourselves. this would make any future testing by anyone who reads this less valid.


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## RacerX (Jan 11, 2002)

That is completely understandable. Being able to prepare of sections damages the test for everyone (if not just for the person taking the test). By the way, did I read some where that a person who scored 100 on a test given around 1917 would only score about 85 by the standards of the 90's? What does that say about the amounts of information we deal with and how we adapt to information rich environments?

Any thank you and FrgMstr for those insightd into NLP. Very interesting stuff indeed.


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## edX (Jan 11, 2002)

which brings me to 
3rd) i can't believe that you were given the wais so repeatedly over so many years racerx - this would considerably reduce the validity of the test. i mayself can never take it because i have been trained to adminiter it. i would never consider giving it to anyone more than once every 5 years. of course when you were a child, you should have been given the wisc (weschler intelligence scale for children) which i am only minimally knowledgable of. there are a few more subtests but still that would be alot. now there is no reason you couldn't take one subtest per sitting over a year's time and then an overall established. that would be ok. i don't know what kind of special attention you were getting but i can assure you it was very unorthodox.
4th)c_geek (i never liked chemistry and i hate typing it every time so i hope it is ok if i use this in the future). as for the genes theories. keep in mind they are just that - theories. there are two camps in psychology - everything is genetic and very few things are genitic. i am a member of the latter. i say hogwash to the theory that these things can't be changed. it would take a lot of work, but it could be done. the fact is that the environment plays a large part in shaping us. we develop skills that allow us to cope in our unique environment. there is a lot of evidence for this. the hardwired gene theory is a scary one. it has been falsly used to support racism and various other types of elitism that i am oppossed to. yes we have unique genetic makeup. and yes it contributes to various ablilties. each person has strengths and limitations. but often these are more a matter of how we apply the tools we are given in order to survive or excel successfully in a given environment than lack of the full set of tools.  i will supply some further clarrifications on this if neccesary but i am not willing to debate it here. there are plenty of places around the net where anyone can if they want. 
last for now) dlookus- math and verbal abilities would both fall into verbal comprehension on the wais IQ test.  there is very little correlation between IQ scores and either sat's or school grades. believe it or not.


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## edX (Jan 11, 2002)

racerx - yes i have heard the same thing about the time differences. of course it also is only theoretical. one variable that would have to be controlled for is this speed of info processing. this relates back to my point about the environmental influences and having the full toolset. since people in those times would not need to process info as quickly, they would not have exercised their mental muscles to do so. not that they couldn't have. just that they didn't need to. people like freud and jung probably did anyway. (i would bet on aristotle and plato as well).

and one other note on NLP. we still don't know why it works this way. we just know that it works. the reason it is called neuro linguistic programming is because we are assuming that we are creating new neural connections and attempting to make them stronger than the old ones thru linguistic encoding. yes, thinking is a form of linguistics in this case. self-talk.


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## ksv (Jan 11, 2002)

Very interesting and cool, Ed! I had never heard about this before


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## dlookus (Jan 11, 2002)

ed,



> math and verbal abilities would both fall into verbal comprehension on the wais IQ test. there is very little correlation between IQ scores and either sat's or school grades. believe it or not.



I find it hard to believe that this is so black and white. What is the margin of error on that statement? 5% perhaps?

I admit I'm no psychologist. I can barely even spell it. All I'm saying is that a lot of me people may be turned off by text and words. I certainly feel that way. I can't work with dos or unix, and you will never see writing the kind of sagas that many people on this board do.

A lot of people have told me that good programmers are good with verbal communication. This doesn't make sense to me. When I program, no one has to understand what I'm doing except me. (That's very selfish of me. I'm sure, but I don't typically pass my code on to others.)

P.S. This NLP stuff is starting to seem really creepy


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## RacerX (Jan 11, 2002)

> _posted by Ed_
> *3rd) i can't believe that you were given the wais so repeatedly over so many years racerx - this would considerably reduce the validity of the test. i mayself can never take it because i have been trained to adminiter it. i would never consider giving it to anyone more than once every 5 years. of course when you were a child, you should have been given the wisc (weschler intelligence scale for children) which i am only minimally knowledgable of.*



Actually, I didn't realize that I had taken the test (or that it was an IQ test) until I was 23. And even then, I wasn't aware of the scores on any of the test until after the last one (when they took the time to discuss the scores over all the test and reasons/solutions to the drop in verbal score). The test I took to get into Mensa was the Caltel (spelling?), on which I scored WAY better than on any of the WAIS test (I was actually very disappointed with ALL of my scores on the WAIS, if you can't tell by how I blame the creators of the test  ).




> *math and verbal abilities would both fall into verbal comprehension on the wais IQ test. there is very little correlation between IQ scores and either sat's or school grades. believe it or not.*



That explains why my wife (actually both current and x) never let me deal with money or taxes or anything that requires *real* math (as they put it). I would have screwed it all up.


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## Nummi (Jan 11, 2002)

> Why does such a small % of the population use Macs?

   I did not read all the replys to this question.  but I have the answer... maybe someone already said this:

   People are cheap asses.  They are stupid... and do not "see" something great when they see it.


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## AdmiralAK (Jan 11, 2002)

lol -- racer you seem to have a real problem with REAL math -- but seem to love theoretical/abstract stuff 


I think that in order to be a programmer you need to have some verbal skills.  At least in order to communicate with others.  In real world programming (from what I've been told) different people (or teams) make modules and fit them together at the end of the project.  If you code alone then you dont need any verbal skills whatsoever -- all you really need is understanding and that is what's in the head 

Sometimes I have difficulty explaining to others concepts that I know by heart, because what my experiences are, and what I give as examples miight be meaningful to me, but not to others. -- in other ways though I think I have good verbal skills   -- what sayeth thee Ed ?



Admiral


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## RacerX (Jan 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by AdmiralAK _
> *lol -- racer you seem to have a real problem with REAL math -- but seem to love theoretical/abstract stuff *



Yeah, I'm not much for numbers   . Actually I like the same things in mathematics that I like in women... curves, surfaces, singularities. The type of math I do is more like sculpting than accounting.


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## edX (Jan 11, 2002)

well basically anytime you think using words or numbers, meaningful symbols, etc. you are using verbal communication. so even a programmer must have skill in this area, but simply expresses it differently. when you think in terms of pictures, spatial relationships, actions, etc. you are using more abstract reasoning. the people who excell at both are able to accomplish some tremendous things if they choose. but since this is a very small percentage of the population, we often get better work by working in teams. this way complimentary strengths are shared and tasks hopefully get divided appropriately. 
so there is a difference between both of these and social interaction abilities which falls back in the category of personality traits or clinical disorders in its extreme dysfunctional condition. these we can treat to some extent. we cannot treat IQ skills. we might be able to work with the motivations and perceptions behind someone not fully utilizing their brain power, but this is not the same as increasing their brain power. verbal reasoning/comprehension is seperate from verbal expression to some extent. there are plenty of brilliant bookworms and math geeks who have trouble communicating the complex inner perceptions to anyone else. or saying "hello" and "thanks" to someone for that matter. there is a seperate concept of being inwardly or outwardly focused. there is also the concept of locus of control - whether you are self controlled or the victim of others.
i am sure most everyone here has experienced being "too smart for your own good".  let's face it, using your intelligence can have a price at times. it can be socially isolating, depressing (seeing the truth is not always a happy picture), frustrating (wanting to find solutions to things others don't know enough to care about), debilitating (when you think you can see how something will turn out when it just starts, you may be reluctant to pursue it), and stressfull (people who demonstrate exceptional skills tend to get more responsibilites placed upon them). so there can be a lot of motivation for the average guy to stay average. "ignorance is bliss" has its points.


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## AdmiralAK (Jan 11, 2002)

that phrase (too smart for your own good ) reminds me of the simpsons episode where homer found out the reason he was dumb was because he had a crayone stuck up in his head  once it was removed his IQ just shot up hehe -- but this isolated him from everyone, especially his smart daughter 

It's good to be smart, but you ought to be diplomatic.  Putting other people down or demeaning them in public (correcting them in public is one way of doing so) is bad.


As for curves and shapes, and singularities...I like that abou women -- but not about math...everytime I try to solve equations that deal with that (solving integrals or whtever) I always manage to screw up.... stupid mistakes  -- so I will just focus on  (mediterranean) women 



Admiral


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## mrfluffy (Jan 11, 2002)

Your Type is 
INTP
Introverted	Intuitive	Thinking	Perceiving
Strength of the preferences % 
78	33	33	33
INTP type description by D.Keirsey
INTP type description by J. Butt
Qualitative analysis of your type formula
 You are:

*	very expressed introvert
*	moderately expressed intuitive personality
*	moderately expressed thinking personality
*	moderately expressed perceiving personality

Thats what the test says, does that make me a freak 

Anyway, the reason i got into macs was that i was loaned one as a home computer (a Q700) which was older and slower than half of the school computers (they still had a 386). I just loved the OS, it was simple to use and intuitive, and the software was QuarkXpress 3.3 and photosop 3 which was a little better than paint and ami pro.

the two reasons i get from PC users (consumers anyway) are

* price, an iMac is 2 times the price of a PC that'll surf the net and do homework, they dont normally realise the long term value, or where to get macs (over here anyway).

*people who use windows think that the mac OS would be hard to use/learn after windows. i started on 3.1.1 (occasionally 95) and found the mac easy to use.


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## edX (Jan 11, 2002)

actually homer had a new bonding with Lisa in that episode. it was the one advantage to his being smart!!

so admiral, could there be a correlation between your difficulties with one type of curves and your frustrations with the other kinds of curves??


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## chemistry_geek (Jan 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ed (I think):_
> math and verbal abilities would both fall into verbal comprehension on the wais IQ test. there is very little correlation between IQ scores and either sat's or school grades. believe it or not.



Many of the readers/respondants don't see the connection between math and verbal skills.  The reason they are related is because they because they are one in the same, language.  Being able to manipulate symbols, whether they are numbers, letters, words, sentences, is all language.

One of my chemistry professors in college who was really into psychology said that today's generation of college student is having a difficult time with advanced math, like that encountered in Physical Chemistry, where you are required to hold 7 or 8 variables in your mind that use 3 different equations, plugging one into another and into another.  The students either can do this or they cannot, and test results show this.  And he claimed it was because a larger proportion of the students in college now grew up in front of an electronic baby sitter, the television, instead of reading books and developing their language skills.  I have no validity to offer from his statement, perhaps Ed could shed some light on this.


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## dlookus (Jan 11, 2002)

Which simpsons Characters would use Macs? (Definitely not the comic book guy. he's a PC user if I've ever seen one.)
I know Jimbo had a newton.


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## edX (Jan 11, 2002)

c_geek, seems we both responding to this issue at the same time. he he.

you gave a very good explanation. probably easier to understand than mine. 

i think this idea of growing up not having to use these kinds of abilities is a valid one (face validity) but i can offer no findings to support it. on the other hand, video games probably develop a rapid type of reactive thinking process where little is encoded and retained for every long except thru repetition. there can be survival advantages to this as well in certain conditions i would guess. but lets face it, not many people need things like advanced chemistry to survive. at least we don't see why we do. especially as long as there are people out there like you who are doing it for us. I don't figure we need millions of you


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## dlookus (Jan 11, 2002)

somebody draw a picture I don't understand.


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## tagliatelle (Jan 11, 2002)

I can use MOD-files on my mac. So, why not?


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## edX (Jan 11, 2002)

well i think bart and lisa would both want macs. bart wants the easiest to use and he could care less what others think. lisa would want the best computer made. and of course homer would never buy more than one computer so they would have to share. user security would be a must for lisa so she is using osx. bart spends most of his time running games in classic.

marge would worry that her kids weren't fitting in and using pc's like the flanders (who would probably be running linux anyway). bart's bully friends would all be pc users as would homer's boss.


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## edX (Jan 11, 2002)

> somebody draw a picture I don't understand.



lol

perfect reply 

btw - i'm going to hop off of here. i have a little social interaction that requires few verbal skills lined up with the gf in a short while


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## tagliatelle (Jan 11, 2002)

I don't know, I have just received some publicity from Dell as a present. I am thinking seriously of making a Dell Optiplex(350) with an Apple harddisk. Optiplex is a very reliable PC, with adding the original harddrive from that Performa(uses now since years pchd) it can be a userfriendly and reliable computer and it will be good for studying and in some ways it has something to do with Apple.


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## edX (Jan 14, 2002)

i hope this thread didn't die down waiting for herve to draw a picture!!

or for me to report back on my social interaction 


so i think we are getting an idea about who we are as mac users, but would you really say that apple's advertising is geared towards folks like we find on this site?  can we not assume or at least imagine that there are more mac users out there who don't want to be bothered learning the kinds of things we talk about? the ones who saw the imac 3 steps to the internet commercials and bought the best brand of computer for ease of use? 
i'm wondering what the differences are between osx and os 9 users? ie. - those who are still using 9 and see no reason to change. or i can imagine some of them don't even know a change can be made.


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## AdmiralAK (Jan 14, 2002)

I can change to OS X anytime
I just want 3 things 

1) GREEEEEK SUPPORT
2) SCSI Support (so that I can use my ZIP and CD-RW )
3) "tweaker" utilities so that I can view any region encoded DVD like in OS 9


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## edX (Jan 14, 2002)

admiral, what if you got 2 out of 3?  this scsi support is only likely to come from the device developers and they all want to use this as an excuse to sell you new stuff. when you do break down and get new peripherals, i strongly suggest going straight to firewire.


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## AdmiralAK (Jan 14, 2002)

well if greek came from apple, DVDs I could live with booting back to OS 9 to view non region 1 DVDs.  SCSI... I havent checked with the vendor for the last 20 days, I will now, but I wont be buying a new CD-RW and a new ZIP drive at this point in time.  I will probably asve my $$$$ and get it all built in in my new G5 when I buy one.  Till then if nothing works perhaps I will buy a SCSI-to-firewire adaptor to see if that works (what bites is that I paid, what I consider good $$$< for my SCSI card )


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## Hypernate (Jan 15, 2002)

I'll tell you why macs don't sell in Perth, Australia.

It's because in the entire city, i belive there is a total of 2 AppleCentres, and there are NEVER ANY Apple ads on tv.

Heck, even M$'s bloody XP ad which totally destroyed 'Ray of Light' for me gets shown.

What we need here is more AppleCentres (not just retailers that sell Apple, which there are few of anyway) and more adverts, not annoying M$ style ones, but clever ones, like the iFlower etc.

Hmm, maybe I should make an iLamp ad when I get my iMac G4. That way I can show off the power of the mac AND make a cool iLamp ad to sell to Apple Australia 

Damn, I don't have a digital video camera  It's analogue. Poop


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## wtmcgee (Feb 27, 2002)

count me in on the INTJ bandwagon.


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## edX (Feb 28, 2002)

Ack!! Another One 

They're everywhere!!  


welcome to a place you should fit in wtmcgee


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## Sloane (Feb 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by chemistry_geek _
> *Why does such a small % of the population use Macs?  *



The real answer to this question is found in the fact that the highly intellegent percentage of the population are the minority, whereas the dumbest percentage of the population are the majority. So, this answers the question why the minority use Macs and the majority use Wintel PC's.....!


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## tagliatelle (Feb 28, 2002)

Because the computershop has sold something different.


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## Obormot (Feb 28, 2002)

Incredible - it seems, from this admittedly unscientific poll, that most Mac users are of the IN** type, and perhaps a majority are INT*. I wonder what it means?


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## unlearnthetruth (Feb 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by wtmcgee _
> *count me in on the INTJ bandwagon.  *



what does that mean?


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## voice- (Feb 28, 2002)

My favorite columnist, David Fanning had some thought on this

http://www.macworld.co.uk/opinion/opinion_oct01/david_oct01.cfm


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## wtmcgee (Feb 28, 2002)

thats what the test said i was too.



> _Originally posted by unlearnthetruth _
> *
> 
> what does that mean? *


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## tagliatelle (Feb 28, 2002)

Why must we been one type, when it's another day for another type?


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## xoot (Jul 12, 2002)

Now... the moment you have all been waiting for... what is xoot's personality type.

It's ENFP!

Wow... I am really different. Maybe it's because i'm 11.


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## mrfluffy (Jul 14, 2002)

i just took it again and got 78 33 22 11, which is slightly different than before, but still a INTJ


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## CharlieJ (Apr 21, 2005)

*There just Going With The Americans*
Dont worry macs rule


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## RGrphc2 (Apr 21, 2005)

ESFJ


I am :
    * slightly expressed extrovert
    * moderately expressed sensing personality
    * slightly expressed feeling personality
    * moderately expressed judging personality

Scary Cause it's true, "Provider Guardians take it upon themselves to arrange for the health and welfare of those in their care, but they are also the most sociable of all the Guardians, and thus are the great nurturers of established institutions such as schools, businesses, churches, social clubs, and civic groups."

True too, i am too responsible for my own good, lol.


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## mbveau (Apr 21, 2005)

You guys _do_ realize that this thread had it's third birthday in January, right? Just wondering...


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## chemistry_geek (Apr 24, 2005)

New Personality Test Pages (These are more robust tests):

http://similarminds.com/index.html

Click on *Enneagram Tests*

Then click on *Jung+Enneagram*

Answer the questions, then click on the links to view your personality type (includes life-style, relationships, general life goals, etc... - very informative)

I provided the main link so that all who want to investigate their personality types and more can do so with the other tests.

Enjoy!

Incidentally, I think that most computer users who frequent forums on the internet may have a appreciable "IN"/"INT" component to their personalities.


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## Lt Major Burns (Apr 24, 2005)

ENFJ.  is that much different? what does this mean??


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## chevy (Apr 24, 2005)

Reason it's cost and gaming:
Minimal PC HW is (and remains) cheap
PC SW is (practically) free (this will change as SW providers protect their products better)

And gaming is made for PC...

So, why did I chose a Mac ?
Because:
- I hate viruses
- I hate backups
- I like Apple's design (Sony's is good too)
- I already have Apple SW !


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## Qion (Apr 24, 2005)

Alright I know this thread had it's 3rd Bday in January, but heres my $.02 on the matter:

When Macs first showed up, they had a major role in the graphic arts/designing market. People that owned advertising/marketing companies used Macs because of their great prowess in design. Companies that did strict business (IE number crunching) used the PC's, because they were cheaper and more number-based. These number crunching PC based companies had more of a market share than the graphic arts firms, naturally increasing the number of PC's compared to that of Macs. As a side-effect of this, more people were naturally inclined to buy PC computers for their own homes, just because that was what they were used to using at work. Macs were left to the design market, still. It was not until later that the Mac was a large player in the home-desktop market. 

Again, this is MY $.02, doesn't have to be yours


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## Sloane (Apr 29, 2005)

There is only a small group of profoundly talented people on this planet, and a very large group called "The Masses" who have no imagination or talent whatsoever.

So you work it out for yourself.......................................................................................


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