# 10.2.8 - second time around. Do you trust it?



## karavite (Oct 4, 2003)

This morning my little system updater came up to tell me there is an upgrade for 10.2.8 available. Gee, that sounds familiar!  

Apparently this is the new one, not the one they pulled a few weeks ago. Then again, how would I know this is a new improved update (other than it being available on the updater)? I mean, does Apple explain anything about this? Does Apple apologize for the previous mistake? Does Apple do anything to reassure me that this upgrade is fully tested? Noooooooo! 

I was hesitant enough with OS X upgrades - most are fine, but occasionally you get a lousy one (10.2.6 was bad for me). Now there is no way on Gods Green Earth I am installing this one. It is simply a matter of trust. Sad to say, I will use macosx.com to see if other people have trouble or not before I decide to take the 10.2.8 plunge. The people and community that has helped me so much are now my updater lab rats! That is awful, but true.

So Apple, just what is the deal? WHY CAN"T YOU JUST BE HONEST OR OPEN and say something to us users about all this to help restablish some trust? Just a little comment - "We are very sorry we released 10.2.8 with bugs and have examined and modified our release strategies to avoid this kind of mistake from ever happening again." If you had any balls, you would put something like that right in the updater text. I mean come on, it isn't like you are Enron or WorldCom and the FTC found huge accounting problems, it's not like you are Microsoft with 25 security holes a year, it's not like you just launched a war based on CIA intelligence that was false, it is not like you had sex with a Whitehouse intern... - it is just a little system update you screwed up!

Whoever is telling you that this sweeping it under the rug/no comment stratgey is the right strategy is wrong! I'm a good customer and it isn't working with me! I used to be exctied with system updates, now I am in fear of them! Stop the CYA (cover your a$$) methods and be up front about this and I will love and trust you again. When in doubt, think, "What would my mother tell me to do here?"


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## bobw (Oct 4, 2003)

Apple didn't sweep it under the rug. As with any OS, update, patch, etc, there could be problems for some people. Apple pulled the update extremely quickly to avoid too many people from having problems as soon as they knew about the problem, and that was less than half a day. Not too shabby. As far as info on the 10.2.8 patch, it would have taken you less time to find and READ ABOUT IT than it took you to type this.

I installed the original 10.2.8 on my G4 desktop and Powerbook without any problems, which were minor problems. I downloaded the 10.2.8 patch and updated both machines with out any problems

*modified our release strategies to avoid this kind of mistake from ever happening again*

No one could give you this kind of a promise. I think Apple does very well. 

What would this post have been like if you were using Windoze


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## Ripcord (Oct 4, 2003)

"We're really, really, really sorry that the Internet and your lives were interrupted again by our 27th RPC bug this year.  We have modified our coding strategies to avoid this kind of mistake from ever happening again.  This time we'll try really REALLY hard to eliminate these problems.  As this is the 27th time we've reorganized our coding strategies this year, we're starting to get *really* good at it.  Sorry again about the problems, but we'd like to remind you that in the near future MS operating systems will run on 100% of desktops, so you'd be best to stop harassing your Microsoft masters.

Love,
Steve 'Uncle Fester' Balmer"


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## Ripcord (Oct 4, 2003)

Personally I think the last bit was a pretty bug PR gaff for ol' Stevie, but the "Love" thing was a nice touch.


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## karavite (Oct 4, 2003)

bobw - no offense, but that link was hardly descriptive in telling me the new update was safe to install. The internet and Apple's site is a big place and all I saw was articles on Apple's hush hush pulling of the update and no comments to the press about it. I'm looking for a direct push from Apple to me as a user and not having to scour the web for information. My point is, I was burned by a few OS X updates and I no longer trust them. I swear to you, when a new update comes out, my first reaction is to close the updater and come to macosx.com to see what problems people are having. My next step is to once again remind my mother and sisterinlaw to not run the update on their Macs until I give them the go ahead (they were burned too). I doubt I am alone in my OS X update hesitancy. It wasn't always this way - I used to click install right away and was so excited that Apple was giving me some new software. 

I'm sure some would tell me I need to take responsibility and go out and search the web/Apple's site prior to every update, but in 2003 I would expect my computer company (Apple not MS) to give me worry free and solid updates. I think Apple could do a bit more to help me and other users feel more confident in them, but they have eroded this. Sure, had it been MS, it would be so much worse, but that is what I am trying to say - Apple seemed to handle this one in a MS like style.


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## bobw (Oct 4, 2003)

I don't know how long you've been using Macs, but it sounds as though you may be new to Macs, (I know you're probably not new to Macs), otherwise you would know Apples reputation for their systems and correcting problems as fast as they can. They may not always be forth coming in these announcements, but they have to find the problem first. Within an hour or so, there were numerous sites reporting on the problems with 10.2.8 and the fixes. The main problem was the Ethernet problem, and a quick fix was out there almost immediately.

I think Apple may sort of rely on it's loyal customer base to help out like this. There's always a bunch of people looking for fixes when problems like this occur, installing updates the minute they're released. I always install as soon as they're release, but I admit, on my Powerbook in case something gets screwed up, and that hasn't happend to me in 12 or 14 years of using Macs.

Look at how fast this update was pulled. Most Mac people didn't even know it was available. Now it this were a MS update, I think it would have taken weeks before it was pulled, or even admitted too.

Us Mac folk usually haf mighty li'l t'wo'ry about compared t'Windoze users


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## RacerX (Oct 4, 2003)

karavite,

You won't find a stronger Apple supporter than me out there. My business is setting up, running and maintaining Apple computers. I'm the sole service provider for more than 60 Macs currently.

The first thing I do on any system I set up is turn off Apple's software updater. I don't care how much time and effort Apple puts into making sure their updates work correctly, the only test that matters to me is how they run in the wild. 1-2 weeks minimum of watching other people beta test new software. 

Apple is a company of people, and people make mistakes and errors from time to time. Apple users are a group of people, they don't always leave their systems exactly as Apple had them off the factory floor. Third party software makers are people, their software might not work with everyones system the same way as the ones they tested it on. That is a lot of people involved, things can (and most likely will) go wrong.

Is this a new thing for me? No! 

Do I blame Apple? No!

Chacing updates is like racing trains. Personally, I'll wait until it is clear before my systems or any of the systems I'm responsible for cross those tracks.


It wasn't that long ago that Apple had the problem with iTunes 2.0 installer. And people have issues with every update I've seen so far.

My PowerBook G3 had Mac OS X v10.2 with the 10.2.1 update installed on Sept 18, 2002. It stayed exactly the same (no updates) until Sept 19, 2003 when I knew I would have a few day window to install and trouble shoot 10.2.6. Odds are I won't be updating this system for another couple months (or if business keeps me busy, maybe another year  ). I can tell you this, had 10.2.8 come up at about the same time as I was updating, I still would have only updated to 10.2.6 (I have copies of all the updates saved on a CD). I only had information on how 10.2.6 ran on systems like my own.



> Sad to say, I will use macosx.com to see if other people have trouble or not before I decide to take the 10.2.8 plunge. The people and community that has helped me so much are now my updater lab rats! That is awful, but true.



What is so awful about this? You can't stop people (like you before getting burned) from applying things as they are released. There is no honor in blindly stepping into problems. This forum and others are great places for the cautious and the wise.

And if you are looking for a personal apology from Apple, maybe you should call them. Personally, I don't see this as any different from any other update... but then again, I was sitting back and watching you take the plunge.


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## MDLarson (Oct 4, 2003)

So... when I go home today and run Software update, will it update my 10.2.8 to 10.2.8?


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## edX (Oct 4, 2003)

matt - yes it will. and only a 500+ k download. and it works great. lots of people are noticing the internet is faster afterwards.


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## lilbandit (Oct 4, 2003)

I don't see the rush to upgrade/alter a working system unless you need to. The only upgrades that I ever use are combo updaters. They are usually available within a reasonable period of time and are generally safer updates for systems with important/work related information stored on them. Whats wrong with a little patience? As a matter of interest, how many people reading this post update within hours/days of an update becoming available?


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## djkowall (Oct 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by lilbandit _*I don't see the rush to upgrade/alter a working system unless you need to.  *



That's what I'm thinking! I started with the initial Jaguar release and updated through 10.2.6, which has been so great (knock on wood) that I probably won't do 10.2.8 since Panther is so close and I'm probably going to stick with Jaguar. After all, how many more updates can they release so close to 10.3?

Is this fuzzy thinking? I'm open to criticism if anyone has a logical argument. I don't see anything on the update release that I need and I've heard that it will screw with certain haxies that I've come to depend on.


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## bobw (Oct 4, 2003)

I have the 10.2.8 update on my G4 Powerbook and desktop and have no problems.


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## Ripcord (Oct 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by lilbandit _
> *I don't see the rush to upgrade/alter a working system unless you need to. *



I agree, there's no rush in cases like that.  Of course, even if my system is WORKING, it could always work faster, and there are always those bugs that I just haven't run into yet.  Since every update says "includes performance enhancements and bugfixes" I always think "cool!  I need that".

If a system's critical and there's no immediate problem fixed by the upgrade, though, it's just not smart to upgrade as soon as an update is available.  Most smart sysadmins sit and watch while the "bleeding edge" guys test out the patch.  Once it looks like the update is stable, they update is TESTED before it's rolled out onto production systems.

And even then there's no guarantee everything will be completely without hiccup.

Apple did just fine with this - they pulled the patch as soon as it was clear that people were having problems, they fixed the problems, and released an article explaining the situation.  I don't see why they have to suck up to us and try to "rebuild our trust" because a few thousand people had problems that they quickly corrected.

Had it been something like the recent Windows RPC bugs, well, then maybe they'd have to suck up to me =)


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## edX (Oct 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by djkowall _
> * I don't see anything on the update release that I need and I've heard that it will screw with certain haxies that I've come to depend on. *



i think that's fair enough reasoning. but i've yet to find an update that hasn't improved something for me. this latest one has improved internet browsing thru an ethernet connection. and fixed a problem with my external drives properly mounting at bootup. it also sounds important for bluetoooth users. but if you don't have any of those things, there probably isn't much here you really need. 

i usually update the first few revisions as soon as they come out because there are always needed fixes at that point. then i tend to start waiting a day or three as they get to be higher in version number unless they refer to something that seems relevant to me. this one was relevant with the drive issue. and the other added benefits are great as well.


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## ElDiabloConCaca (Oct 4, 2003)

EVERYone wants an apology these days... like they've never screwed up bigger than that in their life and not had to apologize for it...   I'll bet that more than half of the people who want an apology for the 1st 10.2.8 update didn't even experience problems with it!

I'm just glad Apple ain't like Microsoft.  I use a Windows box every other day or so and it amazes me to see two or three new updates every other day!  I had one updater recommend updating the hard disk driver, which I did through Windows Update, and the hard drive was no longer readable after that.  Completely lost.  Never ran into a problem like that with an Apple.


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## karavite (Oct 4, 2003)

Just to be clear - I did not update to 10.2.8. Also, I have been using Macs for 15 years. In my experience with Apple, this kind of thing is rare. I am dealing with quite a few new mac users - who I helped convince to get a Mac - and in the past few months all have been burned by updates on new computers and systems that are hardly unconventional and/or modified. 10.2.6 and iMovie 3 for example. I have had OS X running from beta and though a few updates were a little iffy, most were fantastic. This past year this has changed for me on a 1 year old G4 I Ghz where various upgrades have caused problems requiring me to do reinstalls. No, the hardware tests out perfectly. It is a great machine and I love the hell out of it. I just don't want to clean it up every time Apple has an update. I have four drives and ALWAYS back up my system to a spare drive before running an Apple update. Most new home users of Macs do not have multiple drives.

Do you guys see the Apple commercials? Tell me, who is Apple marketing to and what are they saying in their ads? They are specifically going after home and small business users who are fed up with Windows and all the included BS and just want to enjoy their computer for email, common apps, the web, pictures, music and movies. Blaming these Mac users for not taking more responsibility in learning about their complex software is like blaming car owners for not knowing how to do a valve job. 

To non-geeky-scour-the-forums/web-type Mac users at home, when the system updater pops up and says - "Hey, here is an update for you." they seem to assume this will be a enhancement and/or safe thing to run. How silly of them! What fools for not spending half their day on the web reading about their OS! How stupid of them to think that in 2003 the IT industry has not yet figured out how to properly test software! What morons for not turning off the system updater! 

I realize there was a mad scramble at Apple to clean up 10.2.8 and the programmers were probably running around like maniacs, but Apple does have a PR department doesn't it? Or were they all helping out in debugging code too? All I wanted was a little statement about what happened and why. Is that so much to ask? It sure would have seperated Apple from the crowd!

If Apple wants to be like any other computer/software company, then they should hire you guys to go around and talk about how technically complex it is, how 3rd party software may be an issue, how all potential issues cannot be considered..., and/or cover it up when they screw up. This 10.2.8 thing with the no comment from Apple was in the New York Times - I am not making it up. "No comment" is not the brand image I associate with Apple. I can still "love" Apple and critique them can't I? Or do I have to be a "Apple can do no wrong drone" too?


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## Cat (Oct 4, 2003)

Sure, Apple shouldn't release faulty upgrades. But what if it happens? Errare humanum est ... 
Very few systems were affected, within a few hours solutions and workarounds were posted, within a day Apple retracted the update, all major Mac news sites talked about it, within a week Apple released a fixed patch and the people who intalled the previous one only need to download & install about 500Kb ...

Of course they should have tested it thoroughly, but once in the real world things can crop up that weren't noticed in the laboratory. Both Apple and the Mac community reacted very well, IMHO. A formal apology seems a bit exaggerated ...

People don't need to spend their lives on the net or to become technical experts in order to understand every single aspect of software and hardware of the systems they use, but still I think that reading a news site related to a product you use daily for work, hobby or leisure is quite normal ... especially when the product is a computer. And one would only have to have read one of about a dozen mac or computer related news sites.


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## Ripcord (Oct 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by karavite _
> *Do you guys see the Apple commercials? Tell me, who is Apple marketing to and what are they saying in their ads? They are specifically going after home and small business users who are fed up with Windows and all the included BS and just want to enjoy their computer for email, common apps, the web, pictures, music and movies. Blaming these Mac users for not taking more responsibility in learning about their complex software is like blaming car owners for not knowing how to do a valve job.
> *



This (and the next paragraph) is, actually, a very good point.  Good reply.

I still don't think that Apple particularly owes me a popup that says "we apologize for the previous screw-up.  We'll do our best not to do it again.", however.


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## RacerX (Oct 4, 2003)

> I am dealing with quite a few new mac users - who I helped convince to get a Mac - and in the past few months all have been burned by updates on new computers and systems that are hardly unconventional and/or modified. 10.2.6 and iMovie 3 for example. I have had OS X running from beta and though a few updates were a little iffy, most were fantastic. This past year this has changed for me on a 1 year old G4 I Ghz where various upgrades have caused problems requiring me to do reinstalls. No, the hardware tests out perfectly. It is a great machine and I love the hell out of it. I just don't want to clean it up every time Apple has an update.
> 
> _and_
> 
> I can still "love" Apple and critique them can't I? Or do I have to be a "Apple can do no wrong drone" too?



Wow. To date, I have not had to reinstall Mac OS X on any system. To date, I know of only one person whose system was so badly damaged (by third party hack software) that he needed to reinstall.

If you are technically proficient, then you should already not trust software updates... from any one. If you have set up people with Macs (which is what I do for a living) then you should have taken the time to turn off the software updater for them. You then, as a technically proficient person, should tell them when it is clear to update (or go over when you get a chance and run the updates for them).

What is most surprising is that you, as a technically proficient person, have had to reinstall your software... more than once. And all because you *did* trust Apple. 

How much more of a critique can I give than to say *DO NOT UPDATE WHEN APPLE RELEASES UPDATES!* I would have to say that that is as far from being a _"Apple can do no wrong drone"_ as you can get.

This is not a hard concept. I can't afford for my systems to go down. My clients can't afford for their systems to go down. To the greatest degree I can possibly take, I make sure that everything that my clients have on their systems are known to be working. 

The question is: _Why haven't you been doing this too if you are this upset by an unsurprising and unremarkable event?_

This type of thing happens with Apple, it happens with Adobe, it happens with Microsoft, it happens with Macromedia, *it happens!* And it is completely unrealistic to think it won't. When it is a constant thing (like Microsoft's daily patches) then it is time to start asking for an explanation. 

After 15 years, you really should know this.


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## pds (Oct 5, 2003)

10.2.4 cost me 150 dollars for a new battery. It cost lots of people... Sure it'd be nice if Steve cut me (us) a check to cover it, but such is life. When you and I make a company as big as Apple, we'll make sure we set a new standard, but that will be what we control.

No one ever said there weren't risks, and to me a risk-free life is not worth living. You manage your risks, don't go bungie jumping in Moscow, don't swim in the Nile and don't try to run across I-80 at rush hour.

Don't run updates on the first day (which you didn't, so you did good).

When you do take the risk it is your risk, not the Moscow carnival owners and not the guys who laid the pavement for I-80.


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## hulkaros (Oct 5, 2003)

-If it ain't broken... Don't try to fix it!

-When everything else fails... READ the manual!

Just two of my favorite quotes


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## karavite (Oct 5, 2003)

Okay, so what are we saying here RacerX? Everyone should know not to update their software even when their computer is set by default to update their software? Every new Mac user should have an expert they can call or talk to about their computer and if no expert is available, spend time scouring the web for information on running their computer because their computer company can't supply them with enough detailed and clear information? For those without the expertise or someone like you to call, what happens to those who pay Apple for support and call them? You know what Apple says (at least to my new user friends who followed this path)? "Run the updates!" Most people would assume that Apple would be the best for having the most competent experts on the Mac, so why do they pump out and/or recommend these updates if nobody should run them? (note, apple tech support is often inconsistent - you can get a sharp or dull cookie depending on your luck, but where is that published?).

What about security? Many OS X updates include security updates - it often says this right in the update notice text. With all the hype in the media about computer security (though thankfully on the MS side of the fence), isn't it reasonable for a new Mac user to think they may need to run an update at least for security purposes?

There is no logic here, no clear message or source of expertise - especially for new Mac users who buy into Apple's marketing message: "Easy to use, less hassle, reliable, dependable..."

Maybe my expertise at software is above average but still quite limited, but I am a user not a network admin. I use my computers very productively for my work. As a user I am way above average. You know, some of use computers for work, not just making computers reliable and stable. There is more to life and business than keeping a print server up. I make the money my IT department blows on fixing problems.

Business, education, healthcare... is sick and tired of buggy IT and all the excuses - it is a drain on everything is NOT the center of interest or priorities. Though Apple is far superior to MS or anyone else on this, but the same old IT arguments are getting very old and tired. I hear network admins going on and on about their issues as if the network was the whole purpose for the business or institution existing - not the other way around (eg. reality). I often quote Alan Shepard (from The Right Stuff). "Fix your little problem and light this candle." Sure maybe we could all spend time learning more about technology, but network people could sure use a lesson in learning more about business and users. RacerX you sound way way above average in your job, but you are rare. Your profession needs more people like you!

When OS X first came out, it was very much a work in progress. Updates were common and often resulted in substantial benefits in performance and features. From this, I found myself excited at OS X updates. I ran them from 10.1 and was rewarded with a much better computer every time. Apparently I was lulled into a feeling of safety by so many effective updates. I have learned the hard way. Now, I don't run updates and I tell the Mac users (all 600 miles away) who I convinced to buy a Mac to not run their updates either. Even with these issues, there is no way MS updates for security are any comparison - the instructions and steps for required security updates are a nightmare and very risky and confound non-savvy users all over the world. No argument here - Apple leads the way on updates.

Now for my machine, I do run many third party OS hacks - many of which I find increase my enjoyment and productivity in using my computer (Fruit Menu, Virtual Desktop and a few more) so I realize their is a risk when running an update - most times there is not. I know Apple can't account for this stuff that messes with the OS so I back up my entire drive to another drive using Carbon Copy Cloner and I am safe. If there are problems I can just switch to the other drive. 

My two "switchers" have Emacs and iMacs with nothing other than maybe MS office on them and they ran updates and had big problems. One lost the ability to run iMovie 3 (her sole purpose for buying the Mac in the first place) and then paid the Apple support fee only to have Apple not be able to solve their problem - after being guided through reinstalls she still can't run iMovie 3, Apple can't give her iMovie 2 and told her, swear to God, to just wait for 10.3. I suppose she could shell out a few hundred for FCP and then spend a few days learning how to use it, but she was sold by Apple commercials and Apple store reps on the virtues of iMovie and iPhoto (which often locks up). 

I'm not clear on the whole story because I was called after it all occured, but I believe she updated her OS because the update of iMovie 3 required and update of Quicktime which in turn required an update of OS X. She foolishly thought iMovie 3 would give her more features (after all that was what Apple said in emails, their website and update notices) and that the upgrade path would be safe given she had virtually no third party software on this Mac. I suppose she should have called MIT and registered for a class in OS architecture prior to running all of this? So, this wasn't a case of it aint broke so don't fix it, it was a case of Apple saying here is a great new product that is unique to your Mac (iMovie 3) - run all the updates and have a great time with those family videos! Search this site and you will see many people with update issues including iMovie 3.


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## Ripcord (Oct 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RacerX _
> *How much more of a critique can I give than to say DO NOT UPDATE WHEN APPLE RELEASES UPDATES! I would have to say that that is as far from being a "Apple can do no wrong drone" as you can get.*



Perhaps you're right, but the great point brought up earlier is that when 90% of home users or non-IT-admins see software update pop-up and say "new system update released!  Will make your system faster and more stable!  Install immediately!" I'm guessing they think it's okay to do just that.  It's silly to think that they'd think otherwise.



> * This is not a hard concept. *



Perhaps not for you, but you work on Macs all day.  You're responsible for maintaining them for a large number of people.  It's your job.  But my mother's going to have a tough time with this.  In fact, most of the guys where I work would also click the "Update now" button when it comes up.  They're no slouches technically - research scientists, network gurus, programmers, etc, but not Sysadmins.

I agree that it's silly to whine about the problems - they happen, although they should happen EXTREMELY rarely (and they tend to with Apple).  However, the elitist "anyone with an IQ of 4 should know better" attitude just doesn't fly.


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## Ripcord (Oct 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pds _
> *10.2.4 cost me 150 dollars for a new battery. It cost lots of people... Sure it'd be nice if Steve cut me (us) a check to cover it, but such is life. When you and I make a company as big as Apple, we'll make sure we set a new standard, but that will be what we control.
> *



There's a fine line between acceptable software defects, and when software companies should be liable for damages caused by the defects.  Personally I think MS owes me quite a bit of money for my time spent rebooting systems after BSOD (or after installing new software for that matter.  Reboot THREE times to install Sniffer?  That's crazy.), trying to figure out why my sound card magically stopped working, time spent getting hammered by Code Red or Nimda, etc.  But that's probably only because I've lost years of my life to these things...

In your case - let's say you took your brand new car back to the dealer for a tune-up, who suggested an upgrade to the computer in the car as part of the tune-up.  The upgrade somehow blows up your $150 car stereo (okay, so it's a new, CHEAP car).  You'd demand something from the dealer, wouldn't you?

But not for a $150 battery?

Like I said, it's a fine line.  If the upgrade caused my car to stall occasionally but there were no major problems, and they took care of it three days later, I probably wouldn't make it an issue.

What do you guys think?  Mistakes and bugs are unavoidable events, but at what point should software companies be held liable for damages?


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## Ripcord (Oct 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by karavite _
> *I have learned the hard way. Now, I don't run updates and I tell the Mac users (all 600 miles away) who I convinced to buy a Mac to not run their updates either. *



Right, exactly.  And what do you tell them?  "Okay, when the system update thing pops up and tells you to upgrade, don't.  Just tell it to skip.  When it keeps bugging you to upgrade every week, just ignore it.  Or put it on the Inactive list.  Set an iCal reminder for a month in the future, then go out to the web and start trolling the message boards and news sites to make sure there are no reports of problems or incompatibility with your particular system or software.  Or perform a system backup and then run the update (but remember, only after a month!)"

That's ridiculous.  Mom would chuck hers out the window and take up knitting, or CB radio or something.

(I know I'm probably contradicting a couple of things I said in my first message, but I was thinking about corporate users, mostly.  In context, though, I still don't think this was that big of an Apple gaffe)


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## pds (Oct 5, 2003)

Ripcord,

Yes, if I went to a service center I would hold them responsible. When the service man here broke my keyboard cable while he put in a new hd, I made him replace the keyboard.

With the update, I was the service center and I hold myself responsible. I have no proof that the 2.4 update fried my 5 year old second-hand clamshell's battery, only anecdotal evidence. 

I chalk it up and remove my battery now whenever I do an update, whether for os or other things.

Now that I think about it again...

I was pissed at the time.


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## fryke (Oct 5, 2003)

I don't know, guys... It may be my personal luck, but I have _always_ installed the system updates when they came out from day one of Mac OS X 10.0. I've NEVER had an update kill anything. And quite surely never a whole system. Even iTunes 2.0.2 installed _just_ fine for me without killing my harddrive. 10.2.8 installation went fine the first time I've tried. And quite surely any upgrade before. And I know quite a number of people who had no problems either. Now... Apple _does_ test their software with ADC Select & Premier members. Maybe those are not the people who install APE, haxies and other system altering (and problem-prone) software. Or I don't know...

I *think* Apple has done the right thing. A bug cropped up. Or two. Okay, can happen. Shouldn't - but can. They took the update down. Best thing they could do, right? And after a week (or was it less?) they've issued another update that solved the problems.

The knowledge base article DID talk about the problems afaik. So: All's well that ends well...

That's the way I see it. Can't help it.


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## holmBrew (Oct 5, 2003)

I can't trust it. The first version seemed to work fine, save a few minor issues. This 'new and improved update' has fubared my machine. I get the 'grey screen of death' and it seems to be caused by the Power Managerment code. Grrr! Apple get your act together!!!


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## hulkaros (Oct 6, 2003)

I trusted it in more than 60 Macs of our customers (all models of 2001-2003 actually) and NO problems whatsoever with MANY additional hardware and software stuff installed after the initial OS X and iApps installations!

For those who had/have problems with 10.2.8 I feel sorry for them  I cannot say anything other than I do hope that their problems will soon end one way or another...


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## edX (Oct 6, 2003)

i think that at times apple is responsible for releasing updates that don't work as well as they thought. the 1st 2.8 is an example of this. however, if apple releases and update and suddenly your 3rd party software or hardware doesn't work, that's the manufacturer's fault. i mean -  os x is the operating system. it is there responsibility to make sure their stuff works with it. this is part of why apple prereleases betas to their registered developers. so write the 3rd party who's responsible and let them know you're not happy. don't bitch and moan and iwhine about apple cause your m$ mouse no longer works. or your belkin hub just became the cause of kernel panics. sure, get pissed, but get pissed at the right people. 

that being said - i'd bet 90% of update problems occur for people who don't take the time or invest the money to keep their system repaired and maintained.  if you've got little problems before an update, they're very likely to be big ones afterwards. this has nothing to do with apple. it has to do with being too lazy or cheap or naive to keep their system in tip top shape. directories, filesystems, etc. need to be rebuilt and updated.  crowded, active disks need to be defragmented. crons need to be run. caches need to be cleared. pram needs to be cleared. get the picture? no one should install a new update unless they know they've been properly maintaining their macs before hand. don't expect an update to repair things that were already wrong (or going wrong) with your unique computer after installing. and like i said earlier - don't forget to repair permissions after each update. 

and if you've got warez and multible haxies on your mac, think for a second about where possible conflicts and problems might really orginate. i would guess there is a potential for more corrupt files and conflicts in those than in all the apple updates combined.


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## karavite (Oct 7, 2003)

edX - I do hope you never seek work in PR, marketing or customer relations!  Ripcord said what I have been trying to say - how does this hard a$$ attitude help with new neophyte Mac users - those people Apple specifically targets in all its ads. If your way is the way it is for all Mac users, then why not just go out and buy a Dell PC with Windows XP home edition? Sure it will be more headaches, but with the $1000+ I can save on hardware (you gan get PCs for about $500 these days) I can buy a suite of disk utilities and be all set.

FYI, can you believe 10.2.8 fixed unexplainable printing problems I encountered with 10.2.6? My garden variety Epson printer, fully supported by OS X, would not print on 10.2.6 - EVEN from a clean OS X install upgraded to 10.2.6 with NO - ZERO third party apps of ANY KIND or anything else and permissions repaired... (I did this "just for fun" yesterday on a spare drive). Now it prints like a champ with 10.2.8. I guess Epson is to blame here for my 10.2.6 printing issues? I mean what kind of user or customer am I to expect reliable printing in 2003? I should learn to write my own printer drivers and then I will have nobody but myself to blame!


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## RacerX (Oct 7, 2003)

Can you drop the whole _"Apple should be able to walk on water in 2003"_ thing already.

People aren't going to agree with your exaggerated view of the computing world. No company bats a 1000... not as long as they have clients that is. It just isn't possible.

Anyone so unrealistic as to believe that any piece of technology is beyond problems has no business owning any technology. That includes cars, microwave ovens, phones, mobile phones, VCRs, DVD players, and calculators (just to name a few). And anyone that gets as worked up as you over things like this needs to consider anger management because it is just not healthy. Getting upset as if someone (Apple) plotted to cause you problems is just bizarre. And then repeating the year _2003_ over and over like some type of mantra is even worse.

I've quoted Consumer Reports before because they are honest and non-bias. As of September *2003*, Apple had the best record of customer service and customer satisfaction in the industry. And yes that included Dell.

Just for fun, what was your _garden variety Epson printer_? All but one of my home clients use Epson, I have an Epson, and I know a few of my smaller clients have an Epson on their networks. What printer are you having problems with in *2003*?


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## karavite (Oct 7, 2003)

RacerX, as they say, please don't get your BVDs in a bunch. I am not hostile to you and I am a huge Apple fan, but I think they could use some feedback now and then. I never said Apple needs to be God, just being a little more open and informative (eg push not pull) on technical issues, errors and problems. It would further seperate them from the crowd of "oh, it's not our fault, it must be some other software you are using..." type of repsonse that is all too common out there.

Apple, not me, markets their products as super easy to use and as a great alternative for home and small business users. I just think they could do a little more to follow up on their main brand identity issue. 

You seem to make some of your living consutlting home users - that's great. I on the other hand have little time to help friends and family with computer problems (I only help the Mac users and am very often successful), but when one of them buys a Mac on my recommendation and upgrading to iMovie 3 (an upgrade promoting new features) causes problems Apple support - paid support - can't solve, and others on this very forum have the same problem, well it seems unfair and an embarrassment. Speaking as a consumer, not an Apple worshipper, paid consultant... why can't someone demand a reliable $2000+ computer that lets them print or make movies just like on the ads? As a consumer with plenty of choices, logical arguments aren't really the issue - consumers can take their money wherever they want no matter what their opinions are based on. I don't want Apple to lose switchers! My Apple switcher friend (who can't use iMovie when she bought a Mac for iMovie and paid Apple $300 in support fees) is livid. Apple had her in their pocket, she absolutely loved her Mac, but now is furious and dissappointed. If you are near Detroit, I would have her call you, but knowledgeable people like you are not easy to find! Even if they are, paying someone $80+ an hour to clean up ones "super easy to use Mac" is not something that leaves a warm fuzzy feeling in people's heart.

P.S. Epson 740i - a little old, but has been supported by OS X since day one. I tried different USB cables and ports, tested it on a PC, another Mac... and yet it would not print from the G4 DP (oh, ran the hardware check disk too, repaired permissions...) with both a perfectly clean 10.2.6 install on one drive and another drive with a "messy" third party app infested 10.2.6 upgrade. I upgraded to 10.2.8 (second one) and the messy thrid party app infested drive now prints like a charm. Same with the clean drive. I have seen plenty of "can't print" posts associated with various OS X updates on this site. Sure it is a little thing in the grand scheme of things - God knows what little line of code from Apple and/or Epson is responsible, but call me crazy, I just naturally expect a $2500 computer and/or perfectly relaible printer to handle something like printing hassle free - in 2003 especially.


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## edX (Oct 7, 2003)

my epson 740 has worked like a charm since 10.0.4. the only problems i've ever had were cured by giving it a little time turned off and then rebooting. so i doubt that the apple/epson drivers were really at fault in your case.

i think you'll find that apple is pretty d@mn good at admitting when it's their fault and knowing when it's not. the recent 10.2.8 release was a great example of apple quickly taking responsibility. 

karavite - perhaps you should advise your friends to join our site and get the advantage of our members' expertise. lots of problems around here get solved after apple support has failed. i can't say that i can give apple tech support the highest rating.


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## lilbandit (Oct 7, 2003)

anybody trying to solve another member's problem in here is obviously an enthuasiast, be it mac/windows/linux whatever. The poor individuals who have to work in those tech support call centres are often not interested in your problems and it is just a job. Dell are the same, when I was in college I took a summer job doing tech support for a bank. I wouldn't wish that kind of job on anyone. You are given a laminated list of appropriate answers for customers and you operate within a chain of command that records your calls. It's no wonder IT support is among worst of any sector.


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## edX (Oct 7, 2003)

yea, i've also learned that the only way to get decent tech support is usually to ask for a supervisor as soon as the first person can't help you. with sbc yahoo i just immediately ask to be bumped to tier 2 support. even those guys don't always know what they're doing, but at least they don't keep asking you the same questions off their sheet over and over.


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## edX (Oct 7, 2003)

karavite - why does the idea of maintaining and repairing a mac before things get too far out of hand seem so alien to you? if you bought a mercedes instead of a ford, would you think there was some reason you shouldn't wash & wax it, or change the oil? i would think you would be more devoted to maintaining it given the added investment it represents.


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## karavite (Oct 7, 2003)

Okay edX, you are getting out of hand here. What makes you assume I don't take care of my Mac? What little hat did you pull that out of? I have plenty of third party utilties in my arsenal that I use regularly in a preventative way - including Drive 10, Disk Warrior, Plus Optimizer and I regularly repair my permissions. I'm sure I have a better car than you do too. Take a hint from lilbandit and contribute something productive.


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## karavite (Oct 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by edX _
> *my epson 740 has worked like a charm since 10.0.4. the only problems i've ever had were cured by giving it a little time turned off and then rebooting. so i doubt that the apple/epson drivers were really at fault in your case.
> *



Can you READ? After everything I did to trouble shoot this - two hard drives, three computers, switching cords and ports... Are you in some kind of mental fog?  Of course I turned off the printer. Go find something else to drum up a little better than "Gee, mine worked fine, so you must be at fault." Next you'll ask me if I spun in my chair three times and said, "please print, please print, please print"

I thought you would learn some manners after 6700 posts.


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## hulkaros (Oct 7, 2003)

This is getting out of hand! Back to the original question:

10.2.8 - second time around. Do you trust it?

*HECK YES!*


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## mindbend (Oct 7, 2003)

Trust it. Yes.

I install all updates without hesitation. I normally purchase all upgrades without hesitation (although I'm holding off on the Adobe suite. Looks like a real snoozer). I'm fortunate enough to  have a redundant backup system, so it's not that big a deal if something does break. It's worth the risk to me.

I can see waiting a short period for updates, just to make sure. Sure would have sense for 10.2.8, I can't argue, but in general, what am I going to do? Not update? Yeah, right. I'm going to update/upgrade across the board, so the sooner I do it, the better. I can be ahead of the curve as well as work through any issues ASAP.

I found Apple's handling of the situation reasonable.


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## edX (Oct 7, 2003)

> _originally written by karavite_
> If your way is the way it is for all Mac users, then why not just go out and buy a Dell PC with Windows XP home edition? Sure it will be more headaches, but with the $1000+ I can save on hardware (you gan get PCs for about $500 these days) I can buy a suite of disk utilities and be all set.



this might be where i got the idea that you're not real supportive of doing preventive maintainence and think it's only worth doing on a pc. i read very well, thank you.

so i would ask you to consider your own words and "please don't get your BVDs in a bunch. I am not hostile to you." but you certainly seem to have turned hostile to me. i would guess that by now you should know that directly questioning someone's intelligence is against the rules around here. so you might want to consider that next time you ask if someone is in a "mental fog". 

i also must admit to one time i couldn't get the printer to respond. i tried all sorts of stuff. i finally figured out that one of the clips that loads the paper was bent the wrong way. i pushed it back and it worked. these are tension loaded and i'm sure over time it would have righted itself.

what i have always advocated for troubleshooting is for users with a similar problem with something to get together in a thread and compare what things they have in common and what differences they have. if thousands of people are using the software with no glitches and only a few people are experiencing a particular problem, then it's most likely something else that is causing it - something unique to those setups.


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## edX (Oct 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by hulkaros _
> *This is getting out of hand! Back to the original question:
> 
> 10.2.8 - second time around. Do you trust it?
> ...



he he

gotta love it - hulk stepping in to moderate.


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## hulkaros (Oct 7, 2003)

I do my best


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## Arden (Oct 8, 2003)

Karavite, I'm going to give you possibly the best advice that anyone has given you on this thread thus far:

*Give it up.*

Seriously.  You don't seem to be listening to anybody's arguments, or letting them punch through your "mental fog" and consider what people are saying.

Mac OS X is nothing but 1's and 0's arranged via a programming language (probably C++, standard) and a compiler to do what it does so well.  As with any combination of 1's and 0's, shit happens.  Stuff breaks down, stuff runs into other stuff, stuff causes problems.  Let's take it back to the car analogy, since it's so easy:

Sure, you may own a Mercedes, but that doesn't mean it's perfect.  Mercedes cars are expensive *to maintain*which means that they still require routine maintenance, and even costly repairs.  Even if nothing happens to your Mercedes, that doesn't mean you won't have to wash the car every 3 weeks, change the oil every 3,000 miles, and change the timing belt every 30,000 miles.  And even when you're out cruising in your clean, well-lubricated Mercedes, you might go up a steep hill (like the Grapevine near Los Angeles) at high speed with your AC on and blow out your engine.

Of course, you might make all the preventive maintenance keep your car in top shape, and drive like your grandmother, and some asshole in a Microsoft Taurus may come careening through an intersection, running the red light, and smash into your clean, well-lubricated Mercedes, causing body damage or totalling your car.  You did nothing wrong, but you ran into a software conflict with one of the other programs on the road, leading to great expenses and headaches with the hospital, repair shop, and insurance company.

Apple is a hardware and software company just like any other, and while they typically have the best support and product in their market, they make mistakes and fuck up from time to time.  It's just a fact of life that nobody can control.  Yes, it would be nice if you could get something running after paying $300 in support, but no system, by definition, is ever perfect.  If you know someone who's having problems, then by all means give that person a hand in solving those problems.  However, not everybody knows an expert to turn to, and that's just part of life.  You can't expect every Mercedes owner to know a car expert to ask about problems before spending $2000 on repairs.

I think you could take all the posts you've made in this thread and bind them into a book called "Logical, Yet Irrational Thoughts."  Yes, that's right:  your arguments are perfectly logical, but you're being completely irrational by getting so worked up about this.  Yes, it should work, but it doesn't always work: that's just human nature.  I mean, I installed 10.2.3 on my iMac expecting it to work, and it didn't, the Finder kept quitting whenever I tried to click on anything, so I downgraded back to 10.2 and I haven't upgraded since.  But I don't complain that Apple's updates always have problems for some people, even if they may work fine for others.

So enjoy your Mercedes, enjoy your Mac, and enjoy the quality of support that Apple actually provides.  It should be a perfect world, but it's not, and that's just something that you have to accept before moving on with your life.


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## mac_vs_pc (Oct 8, 2003)

I indeed waited on the first go around on the 10.2.8 update, however I took Apple's word on the second edition being better.  Unfortunately, I have to admit that my Powerbook G4 is not the same.  It was working fine until I updated.  Now it seems to be "flakey."  More obvious is that fact that I can only burn Mac HFS CDs now... not ISO 9660.  Anyone else have similar experience.  Not looking forward to rebuilding my laptop if that is the ultimate decision.


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## karavite (Oct 8, 2003)

> You don't seem to be listening to anybody's arguments, or letting them punch through your "mental fog" and consider what people are saying.



Plenty of that going in all directions. 



> I think you could take all the posts you've made in this thread and bind them into a book called "Logical, Yet Irrational Thoughts."  Yes, that's right:  your arguments are perfectly logical, but you're being completely irrational by getting so worked up about this.



The thing that gets me worked up is what I perceive as knee jerk reactions that "Apple can do no wrong. Apple is the best, how dare you criticize them..." Nobody is more happy with their Macs than I am, but I think we should be able to constructively critique Apple now and then. It's not like it is George Bush + patriotism - or is it?



> So enjoy your Mercedes, enjoy your Mac, and enjoy the quality of support that Apple actually provides.  It should be a perfect world, but it's not, and that's just something that you have to accept before moving on with your life.



Okay, I will take your advice and give up this thread (I was going to any way), but I feel misunderstood and I'm sure that is largely my fault in rambling on. I don't want or expect a perfect world. My original point was to discuss Apples consumer relations/PR/marketing approach from a consumer perspective which I think is far above and beyond most companies - they seek new users who are sick of struggling with PCs and Windows and they do the best at convincing new users they made the best choice. However, many of these types of users, by their very nature will not find this forum, buy disk utility apps... Apple could do a little more by more direct and clear communication. Have their support and information (and update) channels match the thought and ease of use of their products. I don't think it does and I think it is an area Apple can improve. I gave some anecdotal evidence on this by how my Mac switcher friend was left out to dry by Apple support and in how a perfectly clean OS upgraded to 10.2.6 had problems. Anecdotal? - Yes. Isolated? - I doubt it. 

In the tough market spot they are in, I think Apple has to avoid any and all situations like this. Some times just clear text is all they need - not a full proof upgrade that accounts for anything that can happen in a computer. For some reason Microsoft can screw up every week and practically shutting down the country, but if Apple screws up just a little or once, they are pounced on in the press - like the NY Times article I saw on 10.2.8. What I guess I didn't make clear was that I thought the article was unfair in its implication and Apple's "no comment" fed right into the tone of the article. I thought Apple could have cleared up this article and it's implications by simply giving them a comment.


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## karavite (Oct 8, 2003)

edx - Please accept my apology. I knew better than to use that tone and I should have listened to my little voice saying - "Clean up this post, be nice." Believe it or not, I felt bad right after posting it. 

I am sorry I directly commented on your intelligence. Though it is no excuse, I thought you were indirectly commenting on mine with your comments about disk utilities which I perceived as being a little snotty. That's the problem with forums - misinterpretation, lack of face to face feedback... can all lead to arguments where none would exist if we were in the same room. What I saw as snotty was probably nothing of the sort on your end (only you really know). I'm sure that if we were in the same room you would see I am not a raving lunatic on the issue of Apple needing to create a perfect world - just some ideas on how they could be a little smarter and proactive with newbie users. I'm sure I would see you as someone who is very smart, experienced and willing to help people with their Macs. At the root of it, I think we are both very interested (in our own ways) in new Mac users of all skill levels being happy with their Macs. It just all got lost in the threads.


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