# Michael Moore



## lilbandit (Nov 26, 2003)

What do Americans (or anyone else) make of him? Stupid White Men was on the bestseller lists in Ireland for a long time. I read his book and in particular his solution to the troubles in Northern Ireland. They were ridiculously simplistic and off the wall. He was on a promotional tour of his new book and during his first talk in Dublin he was roasted by the audience and journalists for his simplistic view of the north and the world. He later complained bitterly and argued that he didn't deserve to be questioned so thoroughly.The north is a huge issue here and most people are familiar with the specifics, hence the quality of questions. Could it be the case that he can get away with weak reasoning in the states because there is no issue like the north of Ireland that the majority of people would have grown up with and feel close to? Does anyone else have any opinions on the guy?


----------



## Giaguara (Nov 26, 2003)

My cousin lives in Europe, she loves his books. I searched for the books in US, and they are a) expensive and b) edited. So i waited untill i went to UK, and bought her the books from there. They have the chapters that are taken out of the US versions, .. maybe I should ask her to post more about him. I never have read his books but maybe I will. (in case anyone in US wants to read unedited books of him, get them e.g. from amazon.co.uk)


----------



## lilbandit (Nov 26, 2003)

I didn't know that the US censored him..free speech anyone???


----------



## bobw (Nov 26, 2003)

I didn't either. I'd like to see if there really is a difference in his books here and abroad.


----------



## ora (Nov 26, 2003)

Wow- never realised the books were censored in the US.

I've read most of Moore's stuff and on the whole i liked it. Granted, his solution to the Northern Ireland problem was very simplistic and among the worst parts of Stupid White Men, but he has some important things to say. Personally, i don't think he deserves as much criticism for the books as he's got. They are overblown, but there are deliberately written as polemic, as a way of engaging younger people in the problems with politics in america. Can you think of the last time a book about politics was so successful, i mean, he's sold over 673,000 copies in the UK, the highest overall sales in the top 40 bestseller list (from saturdays' Guardian). For those of you in the UK, i think he's important in the same way as Private Eye ( a political satire magazine), it may not be perfect, but someone has to be cynical about politicians and encourage the public to question their actions. Better to have Moore to have no-one. (This is when i really miss Bill Hicks!)

If anyone wants to compare US versions with my UK ones, I'd be happy to help. Pm me.

ora


----------



## Giaguara (Nov 26, 2003)

My cousin has the UK copies. Maybe she can tell what are the missing chapters (about) ..


----------



## toast (Nov 26, 2003)

Many things are censored in the US without the public opinion knowing it. One of the most salient example is the Terry Gilliam movie "Brazil". Strictly every interesting bit of it has been cut off in the US version.

M. Moore's books are, in my own view, more fun than facts. As lilbandit states, his knowledge of things is rather superficial, esp. in Stupid White Men. Nevertheless, his literature stays pertinent. Even if not 100% empirically sound, what Moore says is just true. At least in the case of firearms (Bowling for Columbine), of globalization (The Big One). Even if said simply, a bit too simply, but after all, isn't his aim to have the largest target audience possible ?

I like this guy very much. Most of his philosophy I share: simple values like tolerance or non-violence are the most important ones. In his films and novels, Moore often sounds like a village idiot: "Why do you need weapons ? Why being violent ? Why are you telling this to your kids ?" and so on. On a sociological point of view, I like his technique just as much as I hate Mc Donalds.


----------



## Nosferatu (Nov 26, 2003)

Michael Moore is a guy who dares to express what ever oppinion to enyone in a funny way. His stories are peppered with irony and that is good cause you got to be able to have a laugh abt serious things to. Have only seen "Roger and Me" and "Bowling for Columbine" and Bowling for Columbine is really good. Maby his ideas for sollutions are simple (havnt read the books yet unfortunatley)but they still make you think a bit and thinking is good because if many brains are activated someone will eventually come up with a better sollution, and you wont take political crap-talk as easy anymore. He presents the problem with humor, though its not nice to laugh at hill-billie-army-types they deserve it  A five year old kid can come up with better arguments than some of Moores so called intervue-victims, like the NRA-leader. If you are in such a possition you should be able to answer any questions, especially if you are a leader for an organisation that promotes weapons. U dont kill animals with an AK-45 if you want to have something left to eat, and its defenitley overkill to protect you from robbers.

Ok when you look at the movies one must realize that mr Moore wanted the moovie to look this way. Its from his point of veiw only, but he makes simple remarks that most (i think) agree with. It becomes so obvius when he brings the fish to the surface, and if you dont see the ugly fish sometimes, you tend to forget that tey are there, under the surface eating the nice small fishes.

He is pretty smart for a dumb american. Cant wait to read his books specially the latest where - ive been told - he BBQs bush. Bush who whas - more than any president I think - made the rest of the world look down even more on americans in general.


----------



## Harvey (Nov 26, 2003)

If you like Michael Moore, read some Noam Chomsky next.  

Chomsky is higher level reading, but -really- gets down to the rhyme and reason behind America's attrocious foreign policy.  It's tough stuff, packed with information, and usually -not- funny... but, I like it.

*Hegemony or Survival : America's Quest for Global Dominance* (The American Empire Project)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=sr_8_1/103-1801021-6210205?v=glance&n=507846

*Understanding Power*
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=sr_8_2/103-1801021-6210205?v=glance&n=507846



I did -not- know that Moore's books were censored in the US, and almost find it hard to believe... you would think that if they were, he would mention it in his foreward or on his website...


----------



## Arden (Nov 26, 2003)

Moore got booed at an awards show for expressing his opinion of Herr Bush, which I thought was a little unnerving.  The people we watch every day support Bush, apparently, which isn't really helpful.

I thought Columbine was good, but a little out of place at this time.  I think guns, while a major issue, should take a back seat to drunk driving.


----------



## toast (Nov 27, 2003)

Moore/Chomsky (re: Harvey)

Collusion between the two sounds logical. Note however that Chomsky is an extremely learned person, just as his father (one of the most famous linguist in the world) was.


----------



## ora (Nov 27, 2003)

toast said:
			
		

> Moore/Chomsky (re: Harvey)
> 
> Collusion between the two sounds logical. Note however that Chomsky is an extremely learned person, just as his father (one of the most famous linguist in the world) was.



Noam Chomsky himself is one of the most famous linguistic theorists in the world. Who were you referring to? What i like about Chomsky is that he is respected in the academic and broader public spheres.

ora


----------



## toast (Nov 27, 2003)

Chomsky son is indeed reckoned as a great linguist. But his father, whom I was referring to, is a reference, top5 linguists if you like.


----------



## Giaguara (Nov 27, 2003)

Moore about the stupid white men censoring


----------



## JohnnyV (Nov 28, 2003)

I personally don't care for Moore.  He has a bad habit of stretching the truth and selling his opinion as fact.  The reason his book was edited in the US had nothing to do with the government, it was purely his publisher that edited book (which, if you read what G posted you will see is true).  His publisher was probably afraid of Moore protesters coming to them about controversial material that is in the book.


----------



## fryke (Nov 28, 2003)

Giaguara: That article says it's NOT censored... So... Are you right (it's censored) or are you right (it's not censored)? ;-)


----------



## Giaguara (Nov 29, 2003)

The versions sold in UK contain a few chapters that are NOT included in the US version. 

Hopefully my cousin will one day explain what is in those chapters. (she has a broken hand so it takes ages for her to type now, but hopefully she'll explain.)


----------



## sUICIDE_mONKEY (Dec 5, 2003)

Here's the chapter list in my,irish&uk version if it helps:
Introduction (different introduction than us version)
1 A Very American Coup
2 Dear George
3 Dow wow wow
4 Kill Whitey
5 Idiot Nation
6 Nice Planet, Nobody Home
7 The End Of Men
8 We're Number One!
9 One big Happy Prison
10 Democrats, DOA
11 The People's Prayer
12 Tallahassee Hi-Ho
Epilogue
Notes And Sources
Acknowledgments
About The Author
About The Typeface

Hope this helps.

As regards the north (N. Ireland), yeah it was ludicrously simple, and very dissapointing but i look at the book more as just fun. As someone said before, chomsky's the one to read, it aint fun, but its good stuff.If moore gets more people interested/involved in their government,which he seems to be doing quite well,then his short-comings are worth it.


----------



## wdw_ (Dec 23, 2003)

I love Michael Moore. I thought "Bowling For Columbine" was great and I can't wait for "Fahrenheit 9/11"

I like how he presents serious issues in a humorous way. "A Brief History of the United States of America" was hilarious.  I saw him speak at a local college; he was great.

PS: *1600th POST!*


----------



## monktus (Dec 29, 2003)

I like Michael Moore although I agree that he can be a bit obtuse at times. I haven't got round to reading the whole of Stupid White Men yet but someone else had told me that his section about Northern Ireland was illinformed and just daft, letting the rest of the book down. As others have already mentioned, the good thing about Moore is that he writes for the masses and gets people discussing important stuff. I thought Bowling for Columbine was excellent, and a bit more mearsured than say Stupid White Men. He certainly has his flaws but if Moore lacks serious insight or a serious academic background, he makes up for it with his intent  getting ordinary Americans to take a look at themselves and their country and think about what went wrong.


----------



## TommyWillB (Dec 29, 2003)

sUICIDE_mONKEY said:
			
		

> Here's the chapter list in my,irish&uk version if it helps:...


Looks the same as what is in the US version on Amazon:


----------

