# Does anyone rawcode anymore or what?



## liquidstrife (Feb 12, 2002)

I don't know if it's me and I'm not trying to sound like a bigshot or anything, but I'm a programmer/Web designer who has never used a WYSIWYG-editor like GoLive, Dreamweaver, Frontpage, etc. Since I got into HTML 4 years ago, it's always been Raw code. I raw code from scratch all my site versions and such. It works so much better and has more control over stuff. Also, it gets you more in tune to problems like when you add in Objects or Java or Perl. I know when I do some PHP apps and stuff, that I always have it working fast because I can implement it where I want and fast. So does anyone else work this way?


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## AdmiralAK (Feb 12, 2002)

I raw code  -- wouldn't have it any other way hehe.  I use a shareware program as my editor, very nice because it color codes everything makes things more readable and it has some nice plug ins that automate stuff when I am lazy (like finding HEX values for colors lol )


I have tried several WYSIWYG editors after learning HTML, but I did not like them, in general teh WYSIWYG model is something that doesnt appeal to me


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## jesnil (Feb 12, 2002)

Using WYSIWYG apps are like letting a blind man to lead you over the highway. Nah BBEdit is all i nead.


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## AdmiralAK (Feb 12, 2002)

I remembered the name 
Its pagespinner


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## kenny (Feb 12, 2002)

I do raw editing also. My editor of choice is vi (yes, I must be a sadist  ). But BBEdit is pretty sweet too. I just wish it wouldn't put all those k's and j's in the text when I try to cursor around the document...


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## rinse (Feb 12, 2002)

coming from a straight design training in illustrator and the rest of print tools... i learned HTML through dreamweaver and have since abandoned it except in the raw prototyping of some dhtml and when i need to visualize my style sheets.

i use bbedit now for html and for my modest tinkering with PHP... i also have a actionscript syntax pack for flash installed as well... it's sweet.

i think wysiwyg tools are fine for general use... however like any tool, they can be a crutch. you are better off to write it out by hand in the long run, but for some it is difficult.

as for vi... good, but why torture yourself. use an easy tool like bbedit. apple gave us the OSX GUI to avoid stuff like that.


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## AdmiralAK (Feb 12, 2002)

for stylesheets I need to agree with you, that is something I do need a WYSIWYG utility.  IN general I use stylespinner.  You just specify what you want and it spits out the specs.  The nice thing if you know HTML and CSS is that you don't need to migle with teh app anymore once the code is generated, all you need to do is go in and edit it


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## jove (Feb 13, 2002)

Hello,

Now, I have done very little HTML work. It sounds as though the Internet development tools are not providing the flexibility and robustness a sophisticated developer needs.

The tools for creating GUI apps in C/C++ matured a long time ago. Anybody who still raw codes non-internet GUI apps needs to find another job. Its been years since a hard coded a button's coordinates in the code.

Its a shame the HTML editors are still that poor.


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## kainjow (Feb 13, 2002)

I've been doing raw HTML and PHP code ever since I started learning HTML (only about 3 years ago). It's very effient, especially since BBEdit (very powerful app) can handle text so well. I've tried nearly every WYSIWYG editor out there, and they're all a pain. I've also noticed that some people who use these apps majorly have lost their skill in HTML. They can't debug their websites when there's errors (like in browser compatibility, etc). Also, I think that when you make a website in a visual program, it isn't your code. It's the company's code. You didn't make the webpage, you designed it. So I think then that you can't copyright the code. Maybe I'm wrong...

But...

My skill in web site design is very low. I'm not much of a graphics person (I prefer programming, not design) so trying to make a website in HTML is becoming a pain. I think in the future I might buy GoLive or Dreamweaver for OS X to make my life simpler.

But...I will always use BBEdit for programming for PHP. And use it for HTML debugging too. It really is the BEST tool for programming and HTML creation (notice how I didn't say web site creation, just HTML creation).

That's my intake...

-kainjow
http://www.kainjow.com


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## jarinteractive (Feb 14, 2002)

I initially used a WYSIWYG editor just to generate some code, then look at how it worked--as a learning tool for HTML.  Now all I use is BBedit for all my PHP, HTML, Javascript, etc. needs!

-JARinteractive


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## rinse (Feb 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jove _
> *Hello,
> 
> Now, I have done very little HTML work. It sounds as though the Internet development tools are not providing the flexibility and robustness a sophisticated developer needs.
> ...



Copyright the code? It's HTML.... why would you copyright the code?


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## liquidstrife (Feb 15, 2002)

Well I never thought this thread would be this popular! I still think that raw-coding is the best. It allows you to easily correct other problems and implement other things. Plus, it's just good to know! Any idiot can use a WYSIWYG-editor! Yea, my iBook is less than 5 days old and it's havin alotta problems lately...If it persists, Apple is soooo gonna hear from me...


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## G4Mystic400 (Feb 16, 2002)

When I took a class to learn HTML code as opposed to the simple things I could do thanks to my HTML for Dummies book, I learned that doing it all by hand is just WAY too much fun!

But I found it to be very time consuming. Being one of those "down with IDEs" kind of guy I resisted using one of those web design programs. The only one that I've tried and really liked is Dreamweaver 4.x.

It was the only one rated high enough for experienced people. I found that it layed out the code exactly as I wanted it! Which is why I was so happy with it (that and it made coding the cascading style sheets soooooooo easy!).

But once you mess around with Flash objects you're code goes down the tubes. I say that once you learn something by hand, you should try one just to see if it makes you more productive. Just stay away from FrontPage and their lame server extensions, and I won't look down on you 

-Jim

BTW, vi is da bomb! But BBedit is soooo pretty!


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## Untitled (Feb 16, 2002)

When I create web pages, I usually use a WYSISWYG program but simply for getting a rough idea of what the page is going to look like. Exa. I type and format the text, roughly size some frames. 
After this it's hard code all the way with BBedit. I add the meta tags, CSS, SSI, and make the code as efficient as possible.
In other words, I simply use the WYSISWYG programs to save time, not to eliminate the task of hardcoding.

SPEAKING of BBedit, as most of you who are using BBedit products are probrobly making money for making web sites, are you not also using BBedit instead of the free BBedit Lite?


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## G4Mystic400 (Feb 16, 2002)

I'm glad you mentioned that part about the commercial and free versions. I use Lite only because I'm a poor college student who spends his money on Games and RAM (because you can never have enough ).

But the commercial version (from what I've played with in our awesome computer lab of Dual 500s on 22" Cinema Displays!) there are a lot of neat HTML featuers in there (even for UNIX scripts such as Perl and a standard shell script). But the coolest feature that I've seen: a CLI way to open files! I love vi to death, but using BBedit on system config files is way too cool!

That would be an excellent thing to buy with the tax refund checks 

-Jim


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## AdmiralAK (Feb 17, 2002)

I haven't used visual ways of programming in C.  Perhaps you should talk to my professors Jove hehehe   I wonder if one can do advanced data structures ina  Visual C way (oh how I wish ;-)-- I hate pointers )


In any case, what I have figured out by coding in HTML is that 
1) You need to know what your code is doing in order to optimize it, change it or do whatever to it if need be.
2) I am not  totally opposed to WYSIWYG, what I am opposed to is people using it as an excuse to not know how things work 
3) Some visual tools are great.  For example I never sit down and make my imagemaps by hand, I dont plot coordinates and so on.  I just put the image in a program, select the areas I want and it spits out teh coordinates which I need to use.  I dont bother looking up all properties of a CSS in order to add more styles to it.  I just use a program which adds whatever I want to my stylesheet.  I also dont look up HEX codes for colors and I dont experiment with HEX to find the right color.   I just pinpoint it using a color program which gives me the HEX.  Such tools are great time savers 


I make my own images for my web site using mostly photoshop.  I am not much of an artist but I think I manage 



Admiral


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## martinatkinson (Feb 18, 2002)

Hello!

I use GoLive to develop my pages most of the time.  However, lately, as my version (5.0) of GoLive has to use the Classic enviroment to run I have been using TextEdit to make my pages.  It has been fun but very frustrating.  I am used to drag and drop and hard coding only when I have to never having to worry because GoLive just ignored my minor mistakes.  With hard coding I have to remember which tags are which elements and stuff like that.  Lots of work but you really have more control over your pages.

Have a great day!

Albert


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## liquidstrife (Feb 18, 2002)

Agreed on the control!


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## jnuneznyc (Feb 19, 2002)

DEATH TO ALL WYSIWYG HTML EDITORS and USERS!!!!  LOL

As a JavaScript/ASP(stop booing and hissing)/PHP coder I have to work with files given to me by the designers.  They usually work with DreamWeaver.   JESUS!  I usually spend half an hour cleaning up the page before I add my scripts to it.

God help me if they need to change something afterwards.  It's like that game Perfection... where as the programmer I hurry to enter in all the code and right before I'm done BOOM someone else works on the file with DreamWeaver!  What I end up with is every line broken at char. pos. 79 and more DIV and FONT tags than you can imagine.

The reason that WYSIWYG Editor are not as good as C/C++ Interface Editors is that your end result is going to be the same in C/C++ Binary Code.  With HTML the source is also the final code.  If there was a compile feature, a way to access objects on the page and you didn't need to look at the HTML then most people won't care.

Anyway...  Let's Get'Em!!!!


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## martinatkinson (Feb 19, 2002)

Hello!

I had the same problem when I tried Dreamweaver or PageMill.  Then I tried GoLive and loved it.  No more having to put <!--NO EDIT--> tags where I did not want them to fiddle now GoLive leaves my code alone!

Have a great day!

Albert


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