# Newton OS 3 dubbed 'Navi'



## fryke (Feb 10, 2002)

According to a source close to Avie, a group at Apple is close to finalizing the software that will drive the next Apple MessagePad. I didn't hear anything about any hardware yet, but as far as the OS is concerned, it seems like it's going to be based on Darwin. There are three layers on top of it. One is Cocoa: Apps coded for Apple's Cocoa environment will definitely be only a compile away from running on Apple's next PDA. The second layer is QuickTime. Although it's debatable whether a small device should be able to play full-length movies, the technology will be ready for it. The third layer is where it becomes interesting. The main graphics engine will be OpenGL based. The user interface will look similar to the 'Slate' theme QuickTime and iTunes are using, but it will definitely *not* be the same. The interface is said to be something completely unexpected when you first look at it. Although it *is* fully based on 3D and the displays for the devices will *of course* be color, both those features will mostly be used to provide a very natural, analogue feeling to the device. Applications that are already set for bundling is a bumped up version of iTunes (which also plays all other QT media and therefore the device won't need a separate QT player), a PIM application that derives straight from Newton OS 2.x and something the source only said the following about: "The Japanese will buy a lot of those devices once they're out."


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## .dev.lqd (Feb 10, 2002)

Do you have a link for this?

If they can just keep this under a grand... oof.


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## rinse (Feb 10, 2002)

i'm skeptically calling troll.

if not... sign me up.  

gotta love rumors.


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## AdmiralAK (Feb 10, 2002)

lol rumors are what drive stock prices up 

sounds nice but I am sceptical, besides, where is the NewtonOS compatibility layer for us "newtonians" eh ????


if apple makes this, depending on size I might buy one even though I have 2 PDAs lol 



Admiral


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## clark (Feb 17, 2002)

Anyone got anymore on this, i like these kinds of rumors....


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## tagliatelle (Feb 17, 2002)

www.go2mac.com
just go on


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## googolplex (Feb 17, 2002)

I woudln't buy an apple PDA if it were just something like a palm or pocket pc... it needs to be something different.


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## hugheba (Feb 17, 2002)

Wouldn't a PDA be an integral part of Apple's Digital Hub plan?


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## googolplex (Feb 17, 2002)

you would think so. You would also think some kind of home server or media box would be as well... but jobs has said that they aren't doing that.


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## fryke (Feb 17, 2002)

Some new information just in...

According to the same developer (he seems to be in the op-sys department so has less info on hardware) Apple wants to be very, very careful about its second step into the PDA arena. Steve Jobs officially denied rumours about a PDA out of Apple several times, but we also know for sure that Apple *does* want to bring out several 'digital hub' devices. The iPod was just number one in a row of maybe three or more such devices.

Also Apple wants to lead in every way. The iPod was the leading MP3 player, technologically speaking - not in price. Apple needs to keep their image as an innovator rather than just another computer maker.

Thus a simple Palm clone would not make any sense at all, even if it had a FireWire connector, as normal PDA use doesn't really *need* such a faster connection or loads of disk space.

According to my source Apple wants to catch a user group that so far was left a bit behind by the PDA market (although some developers have tried to reach this market with Windows CE/Pocket PC already): Journalists. An integral part of the technology dubbed 'Navi' is sound recording and handwriting recognition. Newton's HWR was leading at the time when the MessagePad 2100 came about, which was too late already for the market, because Palm (Palm Pilot at the time) had started to bite into it. But the really important thing is sound recording. QuickTime as a basic layer of the PDA will alow high quality (stereo with a stereo microphone) recording - and the Toshiba harddrive known from the iPod (5 or 10 GB harddisks are available but will very much dictate the price) will allow enough space for long sessions at a *very high* quality, a feature any other handheld can't provide as of now. This will all take place in the background, while you take notes or read your prepared questions on/from the screen.

This is all I've got as info, the following paragraph is pure speculation...

Toshiba might have a deal with Apple to push those small harddrives, allowing Apple to sell the devices very much near the price of the harddrive. The iPod might continue to be sold with a 5GB drive, while the Navi-device will have a 10GB drive. So while the iPod will go down in price (Toshiba will lower the prices), the PDA will cost only slightly more than the iPod originally cost. This sounds reasonable to me, will boost iPod sales (although everyone will want the PDA but might not be able to afford it). This is very similar to the TiBook/iBook pair, where everyone wants a Ti but most of the people rather buy 'half the thing' (the iBook) than go to the competition. (Buy into luxury.)


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## googolplex (Feb 17, 2002)

It sounds cool, however it would still need something different. If all it is is something to take notes on and record things then it wouldn't be much. If it had other apps on it, it might be more interesting. It could become a portable photo album/mp3 collection/video player. How much compressed video (quicktime) could fit in 10 gigs BTW? Also it would need to have wireless features, and not the wireless "in major US cities" crap. A huge percentage of mac users would ever be able to use it if it were just like that. It would have to be small enough to fit in your pocket (smaller then the original newton) but it would have to have a big enough screen.


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## fryke (Feb 17, 2002)

Use your imagination. QuickTime alone makes many apps possible. Read the first post: Cocoa! QuickTime 4 will make MPEG 4 possible. This is not DivX, but a similar technology. (DivX is based on a early MPEG4 codec by Microsoft.) So a 10 GB harddrive can accept... Well, count yourself, you can pack a high-res DivX on a CD-R with 700 MB.

Cool enough?

Wireless Internet is too expensive in Europe anyway. Let it have an IRdA port so we can use a mobile phone with it. AirPort? That'd be interesting, it'd make a good webpad, now wouldn't it? But I hope the interface would allow good fullscreen apps. On a smaller screen than 1024*768 (and it sure WOULD be smaller than that) the browsing experience is diminished too much by interface elements. iCab springs to mind. Or OmniWeb (not because it's full screen, but because they adapt very fast to new technologies that Cocoa provides).


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## googolplex (Feb 17, 2002)

I was thinking that it could use the mobile phone network... whatever system that is. It should also have ethernet or something so you could hook it up to a network.


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## googolplex (Feb 17, 2002)

That would be really cool if it could do video and photos and music. It would be more of a multimedia pad rather then a boring old calender type thing.

Picture this:

Your going over to your parents (insert family member or friend's name here ) place. You take the bus over. On the way there you listen to some MP3s while catching up on some work and checking your email. 

You get there talk for a bit then you pull your iPad out of your pocket and show them all your pictures (courtesy of iphoto) and all your home videos (courtesy of imovie). Your parents love them so you hook the iPad up to their computer (preferably a mac.... it wouldn't work as well on a PC ) and transfer the video and pictures they want over so they can show all their friends.

This thing would also be useful for presentations and taking notes as well. Also it would be good for journalists as mentioned earlier in this thread.

This is something realistic that Apple could do. It would be amazing if they did. I'd buy one in a second!


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## clark (Feb 18, 2002)

I hope is airport ready. My university got wlan, nice to be online all the time  . It would be perfet for me to record classes, store pdf's (dont have to carry books to school) and source code on that device. And of course a shit load of mp3's and some dilbert episodes.

And then its up to the developers to write cool apps.
GBA emulator if the cpu can handle it.
Drawing apps.
Remote control applications for tv/sterio/dvd player and so on(apps that like exits for the newton http://www.sineware.com/products/ShowMate/)
Terminal app (if not included)
If the device got a usb port, driver and app for webcams....
Science calculators
Fax app / sms app (addon GSM flash card)
If you can use cocoa to write software, it will be so nice to write software for it.

I really want a kick ass pda...


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## hugheba (Feb 18, 2002)

I hope they use a standard like PCMCIA/TypeI&II/Cardbus what ever standard card they use in their laptops.

You can use your airport card when your at school/home/airport that has that technology, then swap it out for a CDPD modem while you're on the road.

Add a pc card hard drive for more storage.

Digital (video)cameras, microphones, etc.. snap in and out with ease.


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## Koelling (Feb 19, 2002)

Incredible! I like stirring rumors as much as the next guy but this is sooooo far out  Technology like described here is at LEAST 3 years out. 10gig hard drive? smaller than original newton? Coca support? Wow maybe communism does work......


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## clark (Feb 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Koelling _
> *Incredible! I like stirring rumors as much as the next guy but this is sooooo far out  Technology like described here is at LEAST 3 years out. 10gig hard drive? smaller than original newton? Coca support? Wow maybe communism does work...... *



Why cant the technology described here be out today? 10gb of hardrive that small are out. Smaller than the original Newton, c'mon, the newton is  ~5years old technology, its should not be so hard to make it smaller. Cocoa support, why not. If the OS is based on darwin it would be natural to use cocoa, a easy and fast IDE for development.


I think this can be reality. But its very interesting to stirring rumors


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## rinse (Feb 19, 2002)

i think that of all the Apple PDA rumors, this one holds the most water...

How cool would this be with Quicktime 6 in it? Load the thing up with a full movie before a flight or long drive. Rock.

I assume it would also be able to sync via airport.


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## googolplex (Feb 19, 2002)

I dont think its that far out. There are 10 gig hard drives like the one used in the ipod. They could easily get os x running on it, which would mean you could probably run cocoa. Which would mean that os x apps could run on it with some modifications. Its not far out at all.


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## clark (Feb 22, 2002)

I was watching the "fake ???" spymac iwalk videos yesterday. And then I played white my newton and I realised that alot of people dismisded the iwalk videos becuase they didnt belive a pda could do that kind of stuff. But my newton does 10x cooler stuff then showed on the spymac videos. Some people have really missed something. I really like when you trash some text . 
And the newton assistant. This device is so cool. I really hopes apple brings back the newton... The only thing I dont like wiht my newton is its to big, to much plastic around the screen. And its to heavy...


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## AdmiralAK (Feb 22, 2002)

are we still talking about this ? 
I doubt its going to be real...but I am looking forward to teh hoaxes, the movies, and for someone to make a REAL hoad of this "navi" UI lol


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## clark (Feb 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by AdmiralAK _
> *are we still talking about this ?
> I doubt its going to be real...but I am looking forward to teh hoaxes, the movies, and for someone to make a REAL hoad of this "navi" UI lol  *



I working on it


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## AdmiralAK (Feb 22, 2002)

work harder  we are hoax hungry


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## Matrix Agent (Feb 22, 2002)

Spymac D) is running rumors on the iPods. 

Mmmmmm, rumors.

That hits the spot.


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## googolplex (Feb 22, 2002)

whatever shit you come up with, send it to spymac so they looks even more stupid.


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## AdmiralAK (Feb 23, 2002)

I agree with googooplex 
I wonder how spymac makes its living


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## satanicpoptart (Feb 23, 2002)

i really dont think apple will release a pda, why kill ipod sales?  if they do release a pda it should be the ipod+pda because boring calander machines really suck. people will not buy just a pda, but a ipod with a color screen and a hell of alot of capabities would be great.


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## fryke (Feb 23, 2002)

As far as I've understood my source, the project is not ready for primetime, so I guess it won't slash iPod sales in the near future. Also keep in mind that this might very well *replace* the iPod when it comes out. Or, as I suggested, it could be the high end iPod and be priced respectively. If the iPod will be cheaper (because of sinking hardware prices), an Apple PDA could be very well placed. The great thing about a device like the iPod is that it'll still be great in a year's time. Nobody's asking about the speed of its processor. The only thing that will make it look old some day soon is its harddrive, which can easily be upgraded in a future model. But still, for sound only 5 gigs are nice enough, 10 will be even nicer.

Of course, you must take every rumour with a grain of salt, but the system described in my earlier posts is not only feasible today, it'd make some waves, I believe. But as far as I know the hardware is far from being finalized, while the system is nearing beta stage. Apple wants to be able to adapt the system to new hardware fast. Sounds to me they're either waiting for something like the 'killer' screen (so they're the first to apply it to a PDA) or for an even better embedded processor by Motorola. The G5 is ready for those, you know, but what would it look like to have Dual G4s in PowerMacs and G5s in a PDA?


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## Krevinek (Feb 23, 2002)

Anyone else recognize the reference 'Navi' makes?

A couple of years ago, an anime series called 'Serial Experiments Lain' was aired in Japan, and then about a year ago it was released here. The series was heavily laced with references to Apple and NeXT (CoplandOS, the father's machine using NeXT icons/windows and seeing a bunch of *.app files on the screen as well). The general name they used for the consumer computers to get online were called 'Navi'.

Now the question I have is, is this reference proof of something valid or bunk? I cannot remember if/when Apple referenced something than referenced them. Depending on the way you look at it, it could act as evidence for or against it.

Personally I have a tendancy to say that this rumor was started by someone who watches too much imported anime in addition to their Mac habit. No offense to that person.


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## clark (Feb 24, 2002)

If you want to read on the relationship between Apple and lain,  see: http://www.cjas.org/~leng/apple-lain.htm


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## Krevinek (Feb 24, 2002)

Even closer a relation that I already thought. I didn't bother comparing the FORM of the computers since I thought I already grasped the OS references.

Anyways, it still brings up the question, when has Apple ever used a codename twice, or referenced something that references them? Usually the codenames are a bit more organized. OS X 10.0+ are all wild cats, the first gen PPCs were all famous people (musician, astronomer, etc), what makes Apple suddenly change and pay homage to a writer in another country that paid homage to Apple?

I personally think this is bunk until I see hard evidence otherwise.


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## AdmiralAK (Feb 24, 2002)

very interesting web site 
I liked the newton part and the 20th anniv mac


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## fryke (Feb 25, 2002)

As some people mistrust my source, I made some more investigation on the codename part. As far as I can see 'navi' was used because of the following chain of reasoning:

- Sculley's pet project was the 'Knowledge Navigator' from which the 'Newton' finally stemmed.
- The anime series 'Serial Experiments Lain' picked this up (among other things) and converted the concepts to 'Navi'.
- When Apple started working at the new system, they first dubbed it Newton OS 3, but were told to change that, as someone higher up didn't want the reentering-the-PDA-market to have much reference to the Newton.

Yes it sounds a bit like a cat chasing its tail, but I can understand them, because the *concept* of the Knowledge Navigator was a bit far fetched at the time and Newton could not deliver those 'future dreams'. But 'Navi' (the system Apple is developping) is a bit closer to the original concept.


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## clark (Feb 25, 2002)

I dont mistrust you or your source, I *hope*  you know what you talking about.

Do you know how long thay have come in development ?
Near feature complete, or are they just in the begining?

I hope apple makes some hints before the sharp linux pda is realesed here in sweden.


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## pixelcort (Feb 25, 2002)

It would be nice if it was bigger then smaller, like a tablet computer. Here's why:
* It can replace my iBook (Ever tried to use it while walking?)
* I can do work on it. (I threw away my palm.)
* I can hand it to someone like a drawing of something. ("Here is my latest project. What do you think?")
* I can read on it.
* I can write on it. (My handwriting is large, and I couldn't fit a long word on a single line. (Like 'documentation'))
* I can surf the internet on it. (AirPort isn't that hard to implement, isn't it?)
* I can play games on it. (Make it have more OS X capabilities, I want to play StarCraft BattleNet on that thing!)

If it was like this I would buy it in a second. It would work.


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## clark (Feb 26, 2002)

I read on a newton mailing list that some mebers think that apple will announce a new newton, 4 years after they killed it


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## engpjp (Feb 26, 2002)

It always stuns me to see how these threads heap one feature and wish after another onto whatever basic rumor is presented to them. In this case, any speculation should start off from the existing digital appliance: iPod. It has a harddisk, a reasonably fast processor, some RAM, a small lcd-screen, a battery, and a fast connector-cum-charger. The simplest way to make it into a different kind of digital would be to make the screen larger and extend the software. You still don't have a PDA; to make such a one would take too long to develop and put it in too high a price range for the present, depressed PDA market  - the touch screen is far more expensive than the present tiny screen, and the necessary software too complex to develop in a jiffy, even from the venerable Newton code (which, after all, has a completely different code base from the iPod OS). 

A larger, full color screen and some fairly simple extensions (reworked from QuickTime) will give Apple a convergence appliance with the following kinds of usage built-in: replay of sound files, digital recording of sound, slideshows of digital photos, and showing - with software on the Mac - of notes, databases, anything to do with text. The present CPU is probably not fast enough to show movies, but I might be wrong on that one.

This device will not send rockets to the moon, but it will have enough extra features to make buyers accept that another $100 is added to the present price while making the price of the extra hardware and development feasible for Apple within such financial restraints. The extra features parallel some of the digital appliances forecast by Xerox and IBM many years ago.

If there is one lesson to be learnt from Apple's introduction of hardware in the last two years, this is it: while the development cycle of existing products is fairly short, new products take far longer to introduce, and are far less revolutionary, than the Apple press expect - and there are far fewer of them than the pundits hope for. To wit, the iBook, the new iMac and the iPod. The one totally unexpected and revolutionary hardware item was the Cube.....


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## AdmiralAK (Feb 26, 2002)

actually the strongARM is fast enough to run movies.  There eixst newton movies (i.e. movies for the newton, which run on a newton).  If you want more current examples, on the pocketPC OS you can play MPG, MPG4, AVI and other movie formats fast enought to have them be viewable.


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## engpjp (Feb 26, 2002)

Thank you for the information about the StrongARM CPU. It means that given an increase of RAM on top of the larger color screen and the s/w additions proposed previously, we are talking about a truly portable movie viewer! Those who have used the "portable" VCD players (a concept that died a slow death due to, among other things, immature battery technologies), will see this iScreen (?) as a realisation of their inherent possibilities.

Even more striking: after the first truly portable large-storage MP3 player (iPod), the natural evolution would be the first truly portable large-storage movie player. A derivative of iMovie could download a number of VCD's, a lot of divX'ed movies, or a couple of DVD movies via the speedy FireWire onto its harddisk, meanwhile charging its batteries.

In the bargain, one would get a MP3 player, a sound (live music?) recorder, a reader for stored texts and databases, a viewer of images/photos, and a portable data harddisk.

Possible problems: it would need a new-technology battery (changeable?) to power the screen and the harddisk. The size of the battery means an increase in size - but that is necessary to allow for the screen-size needed. Say, postcard-size with a depth of 1/2" ?

To sum up, an iScreen would bee an iPod with a larger color screen, QuickTime-like OS extensions, mic input and an iBook battery. Nothing else!


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## clark (Feb 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by AdmiralAK _
> *actually the strongARM is fast enough to run movies.  There eixst newton movies (i.e. movies for the newton, which run on a newton).  If you want more current examples, on the pocketPC OS you can play MPG, MPG4, AVI and other movie formats fast enought to have them be viewable. *



I agree whit AdmiralAK, the strong arm cpu is fast enough, the screen size on a pda is small enough for the cpu to deliver full screen movies.


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## cryptochrome (Feb 26, 2002)

Hmmm... what is it about this device that would make the Japanese and Journalists buy this device.  

The Navi-lain connection was my first thought, but that's a little weak.  Lain wasn't THAT popular, although that get's my anime-lovin' blood moving.  So what do the J and Js love?

Phones.  And Cameras.  I'll bet it has at least one of these.  

In Japan, PCs aren't particularly popular, but iMode using mobile phones are HUGE.  Text messaging, gaming, and site browsing are really big with phones, far beyond using them for voice.  Having a built in modem/phone on your datapad would of course be immensely useful to a journalist, who needs to send information on the go and work remotely all the time.  

Of course, the quintissential Japanese tourist wouldn't be caught dead without a camera, and for a journalist it's another essential device.  Building one in, with video capability, would be immensely useful to both.  

Well, just a thought.


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## fryke (Feb 26, 2002)

to those discussing hardware. let me remind you that the source didn't have much information about the hardware this would run on.

i personally don't even care whether the thing will use an embedded version of a G3/G4/G5 processor or a StrongARM (Apple sold a lot of those titles to make money) or something completely different.

from what i know to be true, the device would have to be able to be a quicktime player as well as a recorder, which means it must be able to de- and encode audio and video. (well, if it lacks a camera, video encoding is less important.)

the navi-lain-japan link... does such a device HAVE to have wireless or camera equipment? as far as i know, japanese people love colorful, small things. a reason why the new ibook sells so well is osx/small notebook. but i don't think apple will ever make a product *specifically* for the japanese market. they target us market first and all others afterwards.

digital hub is still the word.


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## cryptochrome (Feb 26, 2002)

The device as I'm conceiving it would be the remote link in your digital hub.  Wireless and/or 2.5g/3g network capability would be essential.  And as long as you've got that, plus the recording and playback capability, you've got everything you need for a phone. 

The most significant thing is putting this all in an appropriately sized package.  Too big and people won't want to carry it.  Too small and they won't be able to write on it.  A mobile phone needs to be pocket-sized to be useful, while a PDA has to be bigger than that.  I'm not sure how they'd resolve the two.  All I know is that belt clips look stupid and are alkward.


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## Matrix Agent (Feb 26, 2002)

Everyone is missing the point. If it is a digital hub device, it needs to have special features that only a mac can provide.

Has anyone though about this PDA syncing with Mail or having iPhoto automatically upload specific "rolls" of film?

Not to mention, this PDA could be used as a remote for any airport enabled mac, for simple funtions like, play, pause, sleep, shutdown, ect.

A PDA with fantastic hardware isn't going to be enough for Apple, and it's efforts would be copied by other companies within a matter of months. Apple, if it releases a PDA, will build upon it's already present advantages, like it did with the iPod, which was an extension of iTunes.

The only problem is, there's no consumer program which would point torwards having a PDA as an extension. Mabey a DV camera or a digital camera, but those aren't very exciting....


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## engpjp (Feb 26, 2002)

Anyone who has thought about the ergonomics involved, or for that matter who has looked at the phone with a larger than dime-size display, will know that precisely the point raised above is why the combination PDA/phone doesn't work. That's reason enough for Apple to leave it be.

Another argument is that it would mean entering mature, well-defined markets to involve such things as phone or photo recording capabilities. The players on those markets - particularly the former - are suffering as it is, even if they have huge marketing and production setups. Apple, a new midget in a pro ball game? No. The MP3 market was an emerging segment, and it offered the chance of developing a new hardware combo which could then be GRADUALLY extended with new capabilities. 

The need to gradually develop a position and design/production capabilities in a different field means that Apple has to either enter a recently opened market, or take the lead in gradually EXTENDING an established market. The suggested alternatives - with or without source backups - are interesting, but too far removed from the realm of reality where Apple hangs, however much we prefer to see it candied, lacquered and gilded.


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## fryke (Feb 26, 2002)

Again: Software first, hardware second.

This will be a platform, very much like Newton was one. Very extensible. So whether the hardware will finally have a miniDV cam *in* it or whether you can use a really good one with firewire, it doesn't matter in the development of the software right now. Whether you want the device to have a stereo or mono mike doesn't matter either. QuickTime will provide the possibilities.

Now on to the hardware part (which will return me to software very, very soon). Here I'm just speculating. A PDA that's bigger than an iPaq (although they're quite ugly themselves) is too big. Sony has done something great with their PDAs. They simply doubled the resolution. Now imagine a screen the size of iPaqs but not of the same resolution. Let's think 640*480. Ah no. Let's think 800*600. Hmm? Let's think 1024*768 or higher, whatever. It won't matter. The interface will be *really* different. Completely vector based - high resolution is a must for it. It'll have an analogue feeling to it. Quicktime movies will be scaled up, but it won't look bad, because the resolution of the screen might be just big enough to fool you anytime. The switch from a Palm to a Sony shows it: Suddenly type seems to be like printed on paper. All they had to do is to up the resolution from about 80 dpi to about 160 dpi. Sure, printers have much higher resolutions, but to actually double the resolution *and* use antialiasing will do more than a trick.

So the device could be about 12 cm long and 9 cm wide. It could be used horizontally and vertically (think vectors). The resolution could be anything from 480*320 (eMate) to 960*640 or even higher. Hardware buttons? What for? A power button, yes. A scroll wheel for the volume, maybe, I guess not, integrate it in the interface. So the device could mainly be a screen. Best not much around it.

This project seems to be very much software driven right now and it may well mean that the hardware will be done later (while the software evolves). This also means that it has to be extensible. The software developers must not care what the screen resolution will be like, because higher resolution TFT (and other projects) are being developped. An embedded G5 processor is out and available, and Motorola and other developers are making progress in building yet more powerful processors for mobile devices. The important part is that when the software will be ready, Apple will take the hardware parts and make a great portable device (or more than one) and adapt the software easily.


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## engpjp (Feb 27, 2002)

While the iPod and the iMac cannot compete with budget alternatives on price, they are nevertheless carefully balanced hardware/price-wise. The ergonomics and styling are the obvious selling points and what persuades the buyer to pay a LITTLE extra; the hardware used is neither "unique" nor best-of-class.

Thus, any screen beyond 800x600 is also a breaking-point stretch of any imagination: it would be too expensive. Touch-screen: as already stated, Apple has no hardware-design capabilities of that kind in-house, and the color variety is also too expensive for the price range Apple wants to aim for.

Apple is dedicated to industry standards these days; the few standards they have initiated recently (FireWire, AirPort, DVI), have been developed in careful cooperation with major industry players. Which port would be standard for mounting/inserting a camera optics? The one used by Ericsson in their new GPRS model? To my knowledge, it's their own standard, not adopted by any other producer. The Handspring bus might be an option, but again it's not a widely adopted standard.

3-D interface? UI research has shown that any 3-D interface elements are a hindrance until the screen format is larger than 21" and the resolution at least 1860x1600. It is NOT useful for a PDA or near-PDA, neither with respect to screen area nor ergonomically. Why was Palm so successfull? A very basic UI - the lesson carefully learnt from Newton research. There is also the matter of hardware: it would take a better dedicated GPU - adding heat and battery drain. The interface elements which are part of QT is a much more viable option here.

The interesting speculations thus don't work at the present stage; neither G4 or G5-derived embedded chips have the general capabilities needed for a PDA, and they are still too hot, power-consuming and expensive. In three years' time, Apple may have the know-how and access to the inexpensive parts needed to build what you suggest; not now.

But I agree with Matrix Agent - the hardware combo I envision could easily become an extension to all Apple's i-software: iPhoto, iMovie, iTunes - AND mail (downloading this morning's mail and reading it on the train or metro; hooking the iScreen up to the Mac and answering it there). As for AirPort connectivity, I believe that is for a later stage as is touchscreen. Again, economics - and power consumption. But it would be lovely...


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## fryke (Feb 27, 2002)

some of you seem to forget that this is a project that will only materialize in hardware in the FUTURE. all the time... okay, i repeat: SOFTWARE is being readied for beta stage. hardware will come later. so a high res tft isn't out of league until the hardware will be discussed. and who knows that's up the tft-makers' sleeves in - say - a year? (this is not a prediction, it's just about possibilities.)


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## JakPuma (Feb 28, 2002)

In case u were wounderin, StrongARM is a common name for the Intel SA series of RISC cpus/


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## niji (Mar 2, 2002)

japan has already launched 3G services for iMode.
here is what the phones have/can have options for:
-head view camera
-messaging
-pda functions
-running java scripts
-mp3 player
-voice
-email
-web access

it all could just as easily be put together in one device the size of iPod (which is over twice as large in bulk as a typical iMode G3 fon is already with these features)

combine it with bluetooth and wi-fi for an iScreen (as the previous poster has coined)device.

demerits of above system+a large cap disk, etc,:
-heavy (too heavy to replace a normal iMode fon) iPod is already too heavy.
-current iMode G3 fons need battery recharge almost every other day. this would need recharge every night
-it would be slow

it would be great to think that the reason why MacWorld Tokyo was postponed by 1 month was to give time to have this device ready...

by the way, the killer app in japan is short messaging, not video,voice, pda functions, nor mp3 player.


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## clark (Mar 3, 2002)

I think that apple maybe is making a pda/cel phone. simular to handspring treo. Maybe something to do whit Apple+Ericsson+Sun. If they do, I hope that Ericsson DONT have anything to do whit the design of the device, Ericsson makes butt ugly cel phones. I live in sweden so I know  .


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## fryke (Mar 3, 2002)

don't think hardware too soon. but ericsson is no longer alone in designing phones. and the current sony-ericsson partnership for mobile phones sounds *very* interesting indeed, since technology-wise ericsson is a leader, while sony is a design leader. so if sun, sony-ericsson and apple are teaming up for a 3G device, this definitely sounds a lot more interesting than microsoft based phones to me.


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## AdmiralAK (Mar 3, 2002)

The T68 is really nice, so are the "newer" R series phones.  The T39 aint bad either.  I dont know what drugs you're on   

In any case, ericsson has contracts or agreements with M$ for the stinger cell phone OS, and with Symbian for their Symbian smartphone OS.  I doubt they might be doing something with apple, but who knows.

Nokia uses symbian as well for their 92xx and 7650 smartphones.


Admiral


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## Matrix Agent (Mar 3, 2002)

Nokia makes the nicest phones.

Admit it. When you saw the matrix, you wanted it.


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## clark (Mar 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Matrix Agent _
> *Nokia makes the nicest phones.
> 
> Admit it. When you saw the matrix, you wanted it. *



Hell yea... I got 7110... ericsson cel phones looks boring. nokia phones are cool  . Maybe sony/ericsson new phones looks better.


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## fryke (Mar 3, 2002)

actually, of course, the Matrix phone was a 8110 with a snapout feature the phone never had. But the 7110 got close, and I bought one, too, after the movie.



Sony-Ericsson, I say, for mobile king. But those will be out in early 2003, so nothing to see yet except some early design studies... This summer, I guess, I'll buy the 7650. But I hope they make a version WITHOUT the camera, because it won't actually be of ANY use for children older than 20. (I consider myself a child with 27, because I buy too much electronic gadgetry.)


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## AdmiralAK (Mar 3, 2002)

The 7110 is *not* the matrix phone 

Nokia makes *some* nice phones but they dont work in the states (take a look at the 8910, 7650, and 62xx series for examples).

until nokia makes tribands (or world phones in any case) I am not buying 

Admiral


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## clark (Mar 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by AdmiralAK _
> *The 7110 is *not* the matrix phone
> 
> 
> Admiral *



The 7110 is the closest you get to the Matrix phone, the snapout feature is important for the matrix felling ....


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## AdmiralAK (Mar 4, 2002)

the real matrix phone: http://www.nokia.com/phones/8110/


the 8110 was moded to have an autoslide, I believe anyone could mod it too


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## apb3 (Mar 4, 2002)

The Samsung phones are cool. They came out with the I3000 or whatever but I saw the MXXX (can't remember the #s) on display in Seoul. Nice. They are also making a really cool one but only in Korea. Maybe it'll make it here next year.


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## clark (Mar 5, 2002)

Any one know if MacWorld Tokyo keynote will be broadcast over the internet? Who speaks at the opening keynote?


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## fryke (Mar 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by apb3 _
> *Maybe it'll make it here next year. *



Assume I'm in Korea, your post doesn't make sense.

Assume I'm in Europe, your post may make sense.

Assume I'm where you are (but why should you?), your post would make sense.

Guess you're American. Think I'm right.

Things I'm still missing in the real world today: The perfect mobile phone, the perfect PDA. I don't know whether Apple should take care of both these needs, but I think they could be the best company to take care of the second. Just today I was toying with a Cassiopeia Pocket PC 2002 device a friend of mine bought recently. I must say, the device has some niceties about it, but I still wouldn't buy one instead of my Sony N-770. The Sony does the best of what Palm OS ever was about. But both devices are nowhere near what I expect PDAs to be such a long time after the Newton was first introduced.

The worst thing that could happen? Apple rolls out a device based on the navi system and it'd still not be enough. But I guess I can rule that out...


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## JakPuma (Mar 6, 2002)

There's a Samsung cell phine with a color LCD NTSC tv buitltin.


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## fryke (Mar 7, 2002)

okay, we are off-topic already... rumours are, Samsung made the step from Microsoft to Nokia for its mobile phone operating system. Read more at http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/24317.html ... Also the SonyEricsson photos at the older link (you'll find it there) are beautiful...


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## engpjp (Mar 9, 2002)

Yes, the technology for making a Wunder apparatus is certainly around; so is the technology for sending a space ship to the next star. However, in today's market place even so-called alliances give rise to modest technology transfer at most, and the kind of break-through device you envisage demand an extensive pooling of resources. That will only happen through take-overs, and even then with some built-in intertia.

Looking at Apple history, there is little precedence for technology sharing of that kind. Joint development, yes (to wit: AirPort, MPEG-4), but not pooling of already developed technologies. On top of that, the kind of mould-breaking device you are sketching out has not appeared in Steve Jobs' second term of office: the iComputers are all ideas based on what Apple was at first - the iMac was a Macintosh in Emperor's dress, the Cube was mainly an engineering concept based on proven technologies, the new iMac was a re-release of the Cube... it's a matter of in-house hardware innovation capabilities, and these are limited at Apple (in contrast to the engineering capabilities).

Ah, yes, the iPod! Actually it's again a matter of applying clever engineering to proven technology mastered inhouse, with an infusion of enlightened design added. The revolutionary parts here, apart from the idea of Apple jumping categories and opening a new frontier in an emerging market, are merging the newest evolution of a proven technology (tiny harddisks) and the OS necessary for the market segment. As is well-known, the OS is licensed from a small company (but would have been made inhouse if the window-of-opportunity had been slightly larger) - it is NOT the result of technology sharing.

As for messaging (SMS), that is just as huge in Europe, but it is tied to old technology from a mature market sector, that of mobile phones. Apple wants control of its new technologies, and that necessitates the in-house capabilities I keep harping on. Thus, Apple's next devices will be evolutionary, too - but the result of combining present capabilities in new ways.


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## googolplex (Mar 9, 2002)

I'd love to know how you know all of this. For all I know you could just be leading all of us on  You should really send this stuff to spymac


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## fryke (Mar 10, 2002)

spymac is not a very good place for talking about rumours. ever since their iWalk debacle, nobody really gives a sh** about what they are saying. 

i think this forum is just about right for this kind of rumours. intelligent people talking possibilities. although some of the answers to the original post were a bit far off, others actually do not only make some sense but expand 'evolutionary' (as an answer to one of the other posts on this page) on the basic rumour, which does not claim any hardware so far, only concepts and software development.

i haven't heard anything from my source lately, nothing new at least. only that they're still hard at work on two main tasks: low level fixing & interface design. the second part is more interesting to me, but all i get out of him is again the scalability of the 3d (and vector) based interface. it seems to hype him very much, because basically you're free in resolution and size of the screen.


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## tcjohns (Mar 10, 2002)

For better or worse, the last two times I tried to log onto spymac, their server was down. I suspect they may have gone the way of the iwalk. Or maybe apple's legal team finally pulled their plug (heehee).
-Chet


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## googolplex (Mar 10, 2002)

yup spymac has no credibility now.


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## ladavacm (Mar 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by cryptochrome _
> *The device as I'm conceiving it would be the remote link in your digital hub.  Wireless and/or 2.5g/3g network capability would be essential.  And as long as you've got that, plus the recording and playback capability, you've got everything you need for a phone.
> 
> The most significant thing is putting this all in an appropriately sized package.  Too big and people won't want to carry it.  Too small and they won't be able to write on it.  A mobile phone needs to be pocket-sized to be useful, while a PDA has to be bigger than that.  I'm not sure how they'd resolve the two.  All I know is that belt clips look stupid and are alkward. *



Nokia already did solve all of these; they even use StrongARM/EPOC combo. 9210 is the name; it actually works, albeit lacks a hard disc.


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## clark (Mar 15, 2002)

> _posted on http://www.railheaddesign.com/_
> *
> Somethings Cooking For Tokyo
> Im still gathering details (what details there are, at least), but *something* somewhat big may be happening at Macworld Tokyo in a couple of weeks. We know there wont be any new hardware released, and we know OS X 10.2 wont be released then, either  but we may very well get to see what Steve has planned for release in the months after the show. Rumors are starting to rumble around Steve setting to rest questions regarding the Phantom Apple PDA, as well as other digital lifestyle devices Apple may  or may not  be planning. Theres also a chance well get to see quite a bit of OS X 10.2.
> ...




Is this the big one? Keep your Newtons crossed. Does any one know if steves keynote will be broadcast over the net?


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## clark (Mar 21, 2002)

Why did apple put contacts on the iPod, without a touchscreen on the iPod, it's kind of limited. Maybe in the end of the year the iPod hardware will sport a larger display and a touchscreen.

I hope apple gets the act together. Contacts on a mp3 player whitout any kind of input device (other then your mac, but if you got your mac whityou you dont need to put your contacts on the ipod) is useless. A peice of paper is better.

I keeps my contacts on my ipad  







Do you have any more rumors fryke?


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## fryke (Mar 26, 2002)

an update, perhaps. 

the current goal of the group is to make the main application a 'smooth experience', meaning that you control all of the different kinds of media very much the same way. as mentioned earlier, the interface resembles iTunes/iPhoto/Entourage and the likes. with a list of folders on the left and a viewer/selector on the right.

one 'rule' for the interface is that you should be able to touch things with a thumb or fingernail instead of a stylus, which reminds me of how i sometimes 'control' palm devices when viewing information only instead of inputting information. input types could include everything from a keyboard to a stylus to speech. nothing set yet.

it all sounds to me like apple wants a technology that can be applied to several appliances. webpads are not very fancy any more, but they could have a big chance in education (think information terminals with airport). pdas must find new applications (which apple can provide). mp3 players alone don't make any sense (and apple's already got one) - while a portable media player very much makes sense to me.


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## clark (Mar 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by fryke _
> *an update, perhaps.
> 
> the current goal of the group is to make the main application a 'smooth experience', meaning that you control all of the different kinds of media very much the same way. as mentioned earlier, the interface resembles iTunes/iPhoto/Entourage and the likes. with a list of folders on the left and a viewer/selector on the right.
> ...



I dreamed on this for MacOSX, and hoped apple would use some way of iTunes like file browsing, the current way of browsing files is so old, it worked like charm when hardrives was ~ 1gb. Now days allmost everyone got ~ 20 - 40gb. Some of us have more like 100gb. Im thinking of writing something like this but never finds the time.


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