# More ranting on Mail



## karavite (Jul 24, 2002)

I really, really, really want to use Mail, but it seems to have some real issues with sending attachments that results in many PC users not being able to read attachments I send out. I really don't enjoy PC users making fun of me and my Mac, but this one is hard to defend.

I have performed an experiment using the following:
Mail on OS X 10.1.5
Entourage 10.1.0 on OS X
Outlook 9.0.0.2711 on W2000
Lotus Notes 5.0.7 on W2000

a 300k .mov file (audio)

If I send any of this file using Mail, I can receive it on Mail and it is fine. If I receive this file on a PC using Outlook or Notes, the file is not readable. Quicktime will not recognize the .mov file nor will Windows Media Player. If I send the same file using Entourage, it works perfectly on all the email applications the PC.

So what is up with this? I had the same problem with Word files and jpegs, but this seems to have been fixed in recent releases of Mail. Is it really too much to ask for Mail to handle attachments the way the rest of the world does? Please spare me complex fixes - it should work out of the box! Again, I really really like Mail - it is comfortable, pretty and easy to use, but I do need to send attachments now and again!


----------



## Tigger (Jul 24, 2002)

I also had some issues with attachments, JPEGs were much bigger than they should have been. It turned out to be the resource fork IE puts onto images downloaded by it, and PC users always got two files.

Maybe this is also the problem with the .movs

I made a little Toolbar Droplet which attaches files to an email when dropped on it.
When a file has a resource fork, it will ask you if you want to delete the resource fork.

I got it here:
www.dodgethis.de/Send Files.sit

Maybe you want to try it.

But I really hope there will be an option to not send the resource fork in the Mail.app that comes with 10.2

(Edit - updated the link to the file


----------



## Captain Code (Jul 24, 2002)

Mail has always worked for me.  I've sent many files to my pc lovin friends, as well as my own pc, and have been able to open the files without any problem.


----------



## karavite (Jul 24, 2002)

I'm glad it works for you, but it hasn't always worked with all attachments and it is not just me - there have been fixes - can you explain why it doesn't work for me for .mov files? Have you been sending .mov files? 

Tigger - Yes, this is what happened with me - but .doc files were split into three files! This seems to be okay now, so I am assuming Apple cleaned up their act, but not completely. Beyond being annoying, these kinds of problems should not make into a final release, especially when some brand new first ever Mac user (that Apple seems to be targeting) brings home their wonderful snappy "Digitial Hub" and sends off a few pics or other files to friends and have them write back "Gee, I couldn't open them. Maybe your Mac files are unreadable by a PC..." Since Mac is low on the list, they need to be much much better - especially with anything relating to sharing files between platforms.

I mean come on- don't they test this stuff? I work in development and if we let these kinds of bugs slip by, someone would be reaming someone out. It isn't 1988 or something - people expect software that works!


----------



## Captain Code (Jul 24, 2002)

I don't know why .mov files don't work for you, but I just sent one to my local email server with Mail, and downloaded it on my pc with outlook express.

I get 2 files, one which is the resource fork, and the second one being the data fork.

The data fork file will play fine for me, as I just played it.

Weird.


----------



## karavite (Jul 24, 2002)

devonferns (sounds like a nice suburban neighborhood - Welcome to Devon Ferns)

Now my .mov file was not split in two, and was not readable in Outlook!!! I had the same split thing happen in the past with other files (jps and .doc among other), but that doesn't happen anymore. I don't know what is going on, but it can't be right!


----------



## Captain Code (Jul 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by karavite _
> *devonferns (sounds like a nice suburban neighborhood - Welcome to Devon Ferns)
> 
> 
> *


LOL


> *
> Now my .mov file was not split in two, and was not readable in Outlook!!! I had the same split thing happen in the past with other files (jps and .doc among other), but that doesn't happen anymore. I don't know what is going on, but it can't be right! *



It must be a system-specific thing or something since some people have problems, while others don't.  Hopfully Apple has this bug worked out soon!


----------



## karavite (Sep 7, 2002)

Okay, thanks Apple for fixing the idiotic spell check in Mail in 10.2. I guess there really is a Santa Claus (sort of).

However, I still can't sent .mov files to my friends with PCs. They continue to split up into mime types, resource forks... whatever.


----------



## uoba (Sep 8, 2002)

Could it be something to do with the fact that Entourage auto-compresses files to send, whereas I am not entirely sure Mail does?


----------



## chevy (Sep 8, 2002)

I also have problems with files sent by Mail. Last time it was with an Excel file.

My solution: put the files in my idsik, and then either give the address to my correspondant, or send it from a PC.


----------



## karavite (Sep 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by uoba _
> *Could it be something to do with the fact that Entourage auto-compresses files to send, whereas I am not entirely sure Mail does? *



Who knows? All I know is I wish the darn thing would work like any other email program in the friggen universe, but maybe it is too late for people like chevy and me. We have been burned so many times by the roulette wheel of Mail attachments that we just don't trust it anymore and use something else for our attachments.

The sad thing is, I really like Mail, its features and UI. I WANT to use it for everything! Just fix the stupid attachment thing Apple.


----------



## Snowball (Sep 10, 2002)

hmm...well, I don't really know what the problem is, but judging from the replies you've got, karavite, maybe your POP/whatever mail server isn't configured properly? For some people it works, (including me although I've only tried Word documents), but for 2 people it doesn't...have you tried emailing resource fork-only files or data fork-only files and seeing how they open on PC? Maybe a Word doc works? Just a suggestion to figure out what the problem is - if the Word doc works then at least you know that the .mov format is incompatible with your mail server...


----------



## karavite (Sep 11, 2002)

Snowball - thank you, a person with ideas! This is so much more useful than the "Gee, mine works fine," response that we see on so many threads. Some person's computer install of some software is completely hosed, they are desperate and reaching out for help... and then someone responds, "Gee, mine is running fine."

However, I'm not sure your idea applies to this. Let me try and explain this:

First, I can successfully attach and mail word, xls, pdf, jpg... from Mail, but that was not always the case with me or others - things have improved over time and I can only suspect that Apple has worked on this. First it was jpgs and almost anything else, then after 10.1.2 or 3 or something it seemed to work, but .mov files are still a problem. 

Second, I have a .mac account and have since day 1. I would have to imagine that Apple has its mail servers together to handle quicktime files!

Third. The mail server argument doesn't seem to address the fact that I can attach and send files successfully (using the same exact account) with Entourage but not with Mail. I'm sorry if I have not made ths clear, but when I first noticed these problems with attachments last year, I did "experiments" sending the same attachments with the same account using Mail, Entourage and even Eudora on OS X. In all cases it was ONLY the attachments sent using Mail (again, all using the same email account) that ended up being split/unreadable when received on some email client on a PC (tried a bunch of those too).

I just tried this yet again with a .mov file. Using the same .mov file and the same email account I sent the attachment with Mail and Entourage. I received these messages on another email account on a PC using Lotus Notes and Outlook. On the PC with Lotus Notes, the .mov file from Entourage opened just fine, the one from Mail did not and had both the .mov file and a file called mime001.txt. 

However, here is something new. Both the Mail and Entourage attachments worked fine when received on Outlook - this was not true with10.1.5 - Mail goofed it up. I can send the same file from Notes and read it just fine on the Mac using Mail or Entourage and send the same file from Outlook to Notes and it works fine. Say what you want about Notes, but it seems to handle receiving attachments just fine with anything but Mail. I don't have AOL, but I understand AOL users have a hard time with .mov files sent from Mail - though you never know with AOL users 

Any way, because of this history with Mail, I just don't trust it and will not risk my resume or some important attachment with it! Also, can you imagine some new Mac user who buys the whole digital hub thing, buys an iMac, makes a movie and edits it with iMovie then sends it to all their friends and family on their new .mac account only to have them reply - "Sorry, the attachment wouldn't open." Is that really fair to a new Mac user?


----------



## Jon Richardson (Sep 12, 2002)

I've only just caught up with this thread, but I can explain what's happening with attachments (in fact, Tigger, put his finger on it earlier on in this thread).

When you send attachments (any attachment) using Mail.app it sends them encoded as "AppleDouble".  This will be seen by a PC user as two files (the data fork and the resource fork). Since both files have the *same name*, when a PC user saves the file from his email it will result in only *one* file being seen in the receiving folder - the last file saved - and if this is the resource fork (as is likely) it will be completely useless to the PC user.

If the PC user knows to expect this effect, they can access the correct file from their email with out a problem, but they can be forgiven for expecting that they shouldn't need to know what sort of computer sent them a file before they open it. (that's the way it is in their normal experience).

If you send email from a Mac using either Outlook Express or Entourage (or Eudora and others) they all offer various encoding options in addition to AppleDouble. To be sure of sending a file which a PC user can open without them having to know it came from a Mac, then select "base64", "mime encoding", "no compression" and "include Windows file extensions" (These are the names of the options in Outlook Express, the other emailers listed above have similar options).

I frequently have to send files to PC customers and this approach works. I also use Virtual PC so I can send emails to myself (Mac to VPC, and VPC to Mac) to test all the things I've described above.

Hope this helps. Sorry for the long email.

Jon


----------



## karavite (Sep 12, 2002)

Jon (and tigger) - thank you for pointing this out. I understand this now, but I just don't understand why Apple would use this when being "compatible" with the PC world is so critical to their success with new and old users. I imagine there are reasons -maybe Apple double is a superior format, possibly connected to running quicktime movies within Mail or who knows what, but to risk having so many PC users not be able to access attacments sent from Macs - that is just crazy and a bad move for user acceptance and/or the reputation of Macs (to many people with much lower levels of understanding than yours or even mine).

I'm serious, I could easily imagine some executive (who couldn't make excel add 2+2 if his life depended on it) at some company turning down a big purchase of Macs for their design department (video, web... whatever) because he remembers not being able to open an attachment from his cousin Joe who bought a Mac. If you think I am making this stuff up, it happens all the time. Techno idiots often sign the last page of major technology purchases. Add to that the strange way so many people love to bash the smallest issue with Macs (while ignoring huge ones with Windows - like security) and it just doesn't help Apple.


----------



## Jon Richardson (Sep 12, 2002)

Karavite, I *absolutely* agree with you. I have posted very similar thoughts to yours on other forums - including Macfixit.

I am an IT consultant working with (mainly) PC users but some Macs as well. I only own Macs myself and rely on VPC for my PC/Windows capability where absolutely essential. 

It beggars belief to think that the primary email client software on the Mac can't send attachments correctly to PC users without them (the PC users) having to somehow "magically" guess that a particular email is from a Mac. Email is meant to be a (generally) platform free medium of exchange.

If you are a Mac user, you have to rely on non-Apple software (Outlook Express, Entourage, etc.,) to be able to send emails with attachments to the rest of the world.

It should be a priority for Apple to fix this in Mail.app, but, so far as I can tell, they have not made any changes in this respect with the 10.2 version.

Very sad.

Jon


----------



## cujopoto (Sep 12, 2002)

hey at least you guys can get mail to work!

don't ask me why, but mail.app refuses to recognize my main isp's smtp server... its bizarre. 

has anyone ever heard of this happening?

mail.app works fine with my other email accounts, so i'm befuddled as to why it craps out on the one.

the troubled kid is: "smtp-server.nc.rr.com" and i'm on 10.2

would an address with a dash throw mail for a loop?

anyway, i'm using entourage... and after reading all of these crazy attachment woes, it might be for the best


----------



## Captain Code (Sep 12, 2002)

The server "smtp-server.nc.rr.com" uses a Microsoft SMTP server.  Microsoft is known not to follow standards, and that might be the reason that Mail doesn't work for it.  Mail.app might be coded to only work with SMTP/IMAP/POP3 standards compliant servers.


----------



## cujopoto (Sep 13, 2002)

that makes sense devonferns. i found this thread on osxfaq.com and it appears that its a consistent problem with roadrunner users:

http://forums.osxfaq.com/viewtopic.php?t=2430&highlight=smtp

guess i'll stick to entourage or maybe try out the new eudora

thanks


----------

