# Saving Excel files on a 2003 Server



## scwconsulting (Oct 3, 2005)

I'm not a total "noob" but maybe one step above when it comes to Macs. I'm a 2000/2003 MCSE and I work for a Consultant in Spokane, WA. I recently setup a network which has 15+ Macs OSX 10.4 and one Windows 2003 SBS Server. I managed to get the macs to authenticate and logon through the active directory plugin in 10.4. Pretty sweet deal and pretty much works flawlessly. We have SMB and AFP shares setup for the mac users which seems to work perfect, except in Excel 2004.  If a used tries to open up an already created document and SAVE AS or SAVE when a chage has been made, from time to time they will receive an error about not being able to replace the current document and it'll save it under a temp name with random lettering.  If you open up that file and save as, it will then let you save it properly.  this only seems to happen in Excel (at least that is all that has been reported to me).  Any info or light on this matter?


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## fryke (Oct 3, 2005)

My _guess_ is that the files are created with different user/group privileges, so that the current user can read but not write to the file... I'm not sure how that's handled on "Active Directory", though...


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## mudfrog (Feb 6, 2006)

I've currently got the same issue here at work. Either the files saves and changes the document name to some random filename or it wont save at all and have to copy the contents of the document into a new document which then enables you to save the file ok.
It's not down to the User privilages as it happens on files that the user has created themselves and then later modify.
Did find people were having same issue when there machines were running Virex 7.5 which we do here aswell and the suggestions were that to turn off Active virus detection. But still not 100% all though it did seem to help at first.
If anybody has any other suggestions then please let me know.
In the meantime I'm going to uninstall Virex completly from the machine to see if this helps.

Regards,

Rich


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## RobertZ (Feb 6, 2006)

We run a Mac OSX Server and recently attempted to upgrade a machine to Tiger, and we encountered the same problem with Excel files not saving properly. It appears that the program is trying to write a replacement file before the original file has been deleted; writing fails, which generates a numbered temp file while the original file becomes unusable (subsequently treated as a file in use). 

There is quite a lot of discussion about this issue on discussion forums, but there doesn't seem to be a definitive solution yet. Some have attributed the problem to antivirus software (Virex), but we don't use this software so there must be another cause (or multiple causes!)


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## mudfrog (Feb 7, 2006)

Interesting that your running OSX Server because most of, if not all of the problems I've read about this problem seem to point to a Windows Server and Mac client scenario
This is becoming more of an issue now because it's starting to delete files when saving them


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## Clivey (Feb 14, 2006)

Am I correct in thinking that you're opening files directly from the server? Try the same exercise on a local drive please.


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## scwconsulting (Feb 14, 2006)

It does only happen when opening from a server.  Months later, still encountering this problem.  I've contacted Apple and MS and both blame each other.  Weird how that happens.  The users now are just getting more bitchy so I need to come up with a solution


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## Clivey (Feb 15, 2006)

OK Thanks. Understand your irritation, you're the man charged with resolving an issue, which whilst 'technical', is in reality, I believe, outside of your control  
We don't, and never have, worked directly from servers. It is policy here to copy the files you wish to work on to a local 'work in progress' partition, do your stuff, and then backup to the server for the tape to rearchive overnight.
It's maybe an old habit from the 'old days' but it has borne us well. Reason(s)?

It causes problems. It's reasonably well documented that programs save the temp files where the original file is located. If this is over the network, you have extra traffic, the possibility of network interruption (and therefore corruption). 
OS X seems to aggrevate the issue by (behind the scenes) actually resaving the new file AS a new file and then deletes the temporary AND the old one in the process - I guess 'cos they think it'll be 'cleaner' - or perhaps that's just the way it has to be... However, the slightest challenge in this process will leave you with a temp file and or a knackered 'new' file.
Quark, for example say don't do it; Adobe CS is causing all sorts of challenges for a friend of mine whose guvenor INSISTS that this the way to do it (despite the proof of the huge temp files that generates).
I've not noted any discernable difference between using SMB or AFP (albeit that AFP will attempt to honour the resource forks, but then MS are using AFP v2.2 and Apple are on V3) as the protocol to connect and there is no (known) way to force the program to use a local 'temp' file whilst it's working.
You also have the situation where you have a copy of the file locally should anything go wrong (this file BTW is moved to another local folder we call 'bin tomorrow' for deletion at a later date). Downside? Administration by the operators - computers run on filing systems, and our op.s have to think about what they're doing and where they're doing it...
Also, should the server fail, there is at least some possibility that op.s can continue with current work...
Trouble is, it's a major change of working culture. If this is the only problem you've got then some would say you've done exceptionally well  
Sorry it's not a 'push a button' solution, but at least it is a solution... ATB.


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## scwconsulting (Feb 15, 2006)

Clivey said:
			
		

> OK Thanks. Understand your irritation, you're the man charged with resolving an issue, which whilst 'technical', is in reality, I believe, outside of your control
> We don't, and never have, worked directly from servers. It is policy here to copy the files you wish to work on to a local 'work in progress' partition, do your stuff, and then backup to the server for the tape to rearchive overnight.
> It's maybe an old habit from the 'old days' but it has borne us well. Reason(s)?
> 
> ...



I appreciate your input greatly.  The problem is, getting the users to understand this.  This is, needless to say, one of my most uptight clients who REFUSE to change any habits.  They feel everything should just work great for them no matter what.  The problem is, they NEEDED to have a Windows server because of a certain piece of software.  So now I'm stuck trying to explain these circumstance's to them.  I'm going to continue to search and hopefully find some kind of conclusion.  I've seen other Mac/Win environments function fine.  I don't see what is different with this one one then this is a SBS server and the others were straight server or enterprise.  

I should note too, this issue happens with SMB and AFP.


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## Clivey (Feb 15, 2006)

No worries. Just my experience.
If you ever get a resolution, I (and others)would be delighted to know.
ATB


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## scwconsulting (Feb 15, 2006)

Clivey said:
			
		

> No worries. Just my experience.
> If you ever get a resolution, I (and others)would be delighted to know.
> ATB



I have this thread bookmarked


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## mudfrog (Feb 16, 2006)

I wouldn't trust our users to work in a way where they were responsible for copying down files and then uploading them for backup purposes. I can see them getting into a right old mess with it. And with some of the size files they work on it would cause more network slowdown.

Well I would also be grateful if you do find a solution to be informed. And like wise if I find anything I will let you know  

Cheers,

Rich


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## mudfrog (Mar 9, 2006)

Has anyone found a resolution to this issue yet? 

Getting it in the ear from a couple of users with the issue!  

Doing my bloody head in I can tell ya.

Cheers,

Rich


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## scwconsulting (Mar 9, 2006)

No solution yet... this is lame.


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## scwconsulting (Mar 10, 2006)

I called MS support and tried opening up a report, but I got passed around like a 2 dolla whore and never got a call back from their "Professional" team.  Seems to be MS knows about this issue and will not address it.


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## mudfrog (Mar 13, 2006)

Well this problem seems to of been around for quite some time and the fact that there is no clear solution to this on going problem doesn't fill me with any confidence that it will be solved anytime soon. 
If I was a programmer I would write a fix for it myself and adjust the way Excel saves documents  

Microsoft = Bunch of FAGGOTS!!!!!


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## RobertZ (Mar 14, 2006)

Something that might work for others, but which hasn't worked for us, is to adopt some imitation Excel software. I've tried a few demos (Mariner Calc for example), and although the interface appears to be identical, it has trouble with some complex formulas that we use in our estimating spreadsheets. This program might work in environments where simpler formulae are employed by users. 

As for us, we may well wind up using the method of saving files to desktop and copying to server later. Right now we are simply holding off on upgrading users to OSX Tiger.


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## mudfrog (Mar 16, 2006)

I don't think the users would like to use anything else but Excel to be honest.

With regards to holding off upgrading OSX I haven't had an issue with Tiger (There's only a couple machines with Tiger). It's all been Panther so far.
It might be worth you getting one copy of Tiger in and see how you go with it.

Cheers,

Rich


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## Clivey (Apr 19, 2006)

Wondering if the recent 10.4.6 update and also 11.2.3 for Office made any difference to this situation? Just a thought


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## Clivey (Apr 19, 2006)

Funnily enough... reading other stuff, I came across this, whilst it doesn't mention MS Server specifically, it might help RobertZ??

http://www.macintouch.com/readerreports/office2004/topic2741.html#apr19


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## scwconsulting (Jun 2, 2006)

Clivey said:
			
		

> Funnily enough... reading other stuff, I came across this, whilst it doesn't mention MS Server specifically, it might help RobertZ??
> 
> http://www.macintouch.com/readerreports/office2004/topic2741.html#apr19



Adding the ".temporaryitems" folder or whatever does resolve the problem.  But who wants to copy and paste over 20000 folders on this server?  Simply retarded.  MS and Apple need to fix this...


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## adm927 (Jul 26, 2006)

I manage an office of both macs and PCs.  We recently migrated our shared drive from a SNAP drive to Windows 2003 Server.  When we used the SNAP drive, we had issues witht he macs saving Excel files - saves were failing and temporary file name changes were occuring.  I assumed that this was caused by the SNAP being close to its memory capacity, but obviously, I was wrong, because the problem persists on the Windows 2003 Server.

Here is the problem in a nut shell:
-User opens an Excel file from the server
-User updates or changes said Excel file
-User goes to save said Excel file in the location from which it was opened on the server.
-Save fails
-Excel will not allow user to save as a different file name or in a different location using "Save As" command
-Excel gives file a crazy temp file name that is a series of numbers and letters
-User closes Excel file
-User goes to server and locates same Excel file using the series of numbers and letters that the failed save had named it.  User opens Excel file.
-User attempts again to "Save As" and rename this file with its original file name and save to original location on the server.
-Again, the save fails and Excel gives file a new name that is a series of letters and numbers.  
This goes on, ad nauseum.
The only way around this problem that I have found is after the first save fails, you go to the server and open the newly renamed file, use the "Save As" function to rename it with its original name and save it to the desktop, then from the desktop, drag and drop it back to its original server location, and delete the duplicate file with the letter/number name from the server.  You can see how this is a pain in the butt.

Any light to shed on this?  This is only happening on the macs in the office, the PCs seem to have no saving issues.  I would migrate everyone from mac to PC as sharing files is not an option for the work that we do, but my Executive Director is a die-hard mac fan so I would always have at least one mac on the network.

Please help!


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## scwconsulting (Jul 26, 2006)

Update your MAC Clients to the latest Office 2004 version.  This seemed to help a little bit with the problem.  Essentially, the problem is there needs to be a .temporaryitems or whatever folder in EACH folder that a user saves to.  If it is not there, they won't be able to save as properly.  One of the lamest things I have ever seen imo.  This isn't a Microsoft Windows issue, but rather a Microsoft Word for Mac issue.


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## Clivey (Aug 25, 2006)

I saw this under the list of 'reasons to upgrade to 10.4.7' on the Apple site:

- sharing using AFP, SMB/CIFS, NFS and FTP file sharing protocols
- reliable access to Open Directory, LDAP and Active Directory services
- login and authentication in a variety of network environments
- file access and byte range locking with AFP file sharing

point 1 is horribily ambiguous, however, point 4 may be of interest to Mac Server users?

There's also a update to Office 2004 (11.2.5), I'm scared to ask if this helps?

ATB chaps.


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## blikseme300 (Aug 26, 2006)

I am a recent switcher and managed to convince my company president for us to switch to large scale Mac use in our company, him included. The switch is not only away from windoze, but all M$ software too. Open Office replaced M$ Office. Glad we did this from reading this thread about the hassle with Excel. My bitter experience with M$ and ANY other OS vendor out there has never been good.

We are using Chronosync to ensure that work documents are backed up. Even though we have a gigabit network and a server with a fast disk subsystem, the traffic can be very high if the files live only on the server. As noted in the thread, you can't rely/trust the users to protect their own data. Either have the files live on the network or use some form of sync software or scripting to protect the data. This solution is especially good for our graphics people as their files are LARGE!

The biggest problem, IMHO, that faces any sysadmin today, is to get the support of their clients/boss to accept change. I am one of the few lucky ones out there.

For any potential switchers out there, remember that Less is More. Define your real needs, not just the historical "what we have".

Cheers


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## Satcomer (Aug 27, 2006)

Well that's a great story! With all updates for both Microsoft and OS X iit is smart to watch the going ons over at the MacWindows and MacFixIt.


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## mudfrog (Nov 22, 2006)

Anybody found a solution to this ongoing issue?  

Surely there is a fix for this  either M$ or Apple need to take control of this and get to the bottom of it.

Cheers,

Rich


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## mudfrog (Nov 28, 2006)

Has the switch over to Intel improved matters?

Haven't yet got an Intel machine at work so I can't test it out.


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## mudfrog (Nov 28, 2006)

I have found something that seems to of cured the problem for the minute.
Time will tell but it has worked initially.

Here goes:

Something new is found..

try this...

(1) Open a new worksheet
(2) Key in any words
(3) File -> Save As...
(4) Choose Format to "Excel 97-2004 & 5.0/95 Workbook". (You may not really need to choose this. It looks like the default format of "Save As..." in my mac.)
(5) After running "Save As...", it will run well this time. Now, just back to Excel and press "apple" + "s" (or just click save icon)

It will give you the same error message. (if it doesn't, just try another "apple"+"s". It will go hanging.)(If System Monitor is opened, you can find CPU utility goes 100%)

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Solution:
(1) Reopen the problem file
(2) File -> Save As
(3) Choose Format as to "Excel Workbook"
(4) After that, the problem goes away. And, I can enjoy "apple"+"s" now. 
(5) I also switch the default format back to Workbook, too


Post your results whether it worked for you or not.

Fingers crossed  

Cheers,
Rich


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