# Adobe wide-open prefers Wintels!!!



## hulkaros (Mar 24, 2003)

Browse here:
http://www.adobe.com/motion/pcpreferred.html

WTF?  

Hello... Is anyone at Adobe Mac-head? Adobe? Where are you Adobe Mac people?  

Conspiracy theory:
Adobe with the help of Dell, M$ and Intel, try to pick on Apple in order to convince them to buy those P4/Itanium2 CPUs instead of those poor(!?) G4s...


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## serpicolugnut (Mar 24, 2003)

Ouch. That's gotta hurt.


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## Inline_guy (Mar 24, 2003)

I imagine that it is pretty true, but to me (who just came from the wintel world) the benifts of a mac out weigh the few seconds I could get on a PC.

Matthew


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## binaryDigit (Mar 24, 2003)

This is old news.  We all know that the current state of Mac performance vs WinTel performance is lacking.  There are those who need the bigger picture, the Mac is viable.  There are those who need the performance, the Mac is not.

I don't "blame" adobe" for anything.  They aren't spreading unsubstantiated rumours.  They aren't "bashing" the Mac.  Does being Pro-Mac mean that one has to hide any information that puts the Mac in a negative light?

Hopefully by the end of the year when Apple is shipping 2.5ghz 970 that kicks butt on those 3.5ghz P4's, we can sit back and chuckle about this whole "performance deficit thing".  Until then, we have to take our punches like men


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## dlloyd (Mar 24, 2003)

While I can believe the performance data, that is a really crappy article. For example: anyone notice that in once place: dual 1 GHz, other place: dual 1.25 GHz. Also, in one place, minutes is spelled minuted. Also, their graphs are a little suspect...


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## GulGnu (Mar 24, 2003)

"While I can believe the performance data, that is a really crappy article. For example: anyone notice that in once place: dual 1 GHz, other place: dual 1.25 "

The 1 Ghz reference was to the previous test. The new one used a 1.25 Ghz chip.


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## Stridder44 (Mar 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by binaryDigit _
> Until then, we have to take our punches like men  [/B]



Damn straight! Don't worry fellow Mac followers, we will have the spotlight again soon...


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## bolindilly (Mar 24, 2003)

the main reason i would say for pc benefit is that macs are only 3% of the market. that's a lot of $ from pc users...


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## hulkaros (Mar 25, 2003)

...Adobe(!?) web page is a bit hmmmmmmmm?

Well, first of all:
-The Dual 1.25 isn't Apple's top gun
-While the Dull (  ) 3GHz is Wintel's top gun
-What is the exact configuration of both computers? Under what OSes, RAM, hard disks, etc. the tests took place?
-Are those 4 simple(!?) stats the objective work of a computer running Adobe apps?
-Is Adobe pissed by Apple for Final Cut VS Premiere?
-Is Adobe getting paid by Dell?
-What is the overall performance of a Dull computer when it gets full of viruses, hard disk fragmentation, "Do you want to send this crash report back to M$?" messages, security holes, etc?
-This page http://www.adobe.com/motion/gear/main.html with Dull offers with Premiere isn't relative?
-Did somone at Adobe or Adobe in general consumed by the Dark Side? 

Methinks that this PC PREFERRED page at Adobe is biased to say the least and would not change even when the dual (!?) G970 will arrive... Methinks that Adobe has a vendetta going on with Apple from Final Cut time ago (  ) until who knows? 

As for more users coming from the Dark Side: Total Crap... For many years Adobe sells in both platforms so they never had a problem going to the Dark Side; they were always there with their one foot... Or should I say with their both feet?


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## Jack Hammer (Mar 25, 2003)

stop complainging because it's true


i suggest you all go here:
http://www.apple.com/contact/feedback.html

ell apple about the adobe page and ALSO HOW IT IS TRUE!!!!

BECAUSE IT IS. Video performance is better on PCS and will always be until we see a new processor. 

So stop being a Apple apologizer and take action by telling apple you despise the G4 and will not buy a new machine until you see it's perfomance significantly increase. PERIOD.


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## evildan (Mar 25, 2003)

Yes, this raises an interesting point, for those that did not know this.

Adobe doesn't really need Apple. In fact it's the other way around. Apple really needs Adobe to do it for them. Adobe makes more money from their PC versions then they do for their mac versions of software. In fact for awhile there, that was actually on Adobe's site in their Mac OSX section.

I think they keep their mac software line, because they are interested in hedging their bets a bit. If Apple does something great, then they can say "We were always with Apple." If Apple goes away (I know that won't happen.. but if...) Then Adobe can say the same thing "We were always with Apple, now buy our PC versions of the software you've come to love and use."

The fact that Adobe posted this news on their website shows a shift in thinking. Adobe is starting to indirectly complain about the speeds of the platform. This article is aimed at the consumers. Those people who mistakenly think it's photoshop's fault that it's going so slow. Adobe is in effect saying, "no it's not, it runs fast on the PC, see?"

Although I don't mean to be all negative, in fact I think most of the news is good news. This is another source telling Apple to speed things up a bit. Apple is smart, and they are no doubtably working on the OS's speed issues.

Another point I want to make is that Adobe is very loyal to Apple. I met with both an Apple and Adobe guy the other week, for a convention I went to. They even chose to sit next to each-other. They were sharing pleasantries all night. The Adobe guy was defending Apple (there was a PC guy at the table) and the Apple guy was defending Adobe (There was a Quark guy at the table too). Apple and Adobe love each-other, even at the sales level. Adobe's image has always been driven by artists, a commonality they share with Apple. The two go hand-in-hand.


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## Excalibur (Mar 25, 2003)

Video performance is better on the PC but I think part of there tests are to blame on poorly written software as well. After Effects runs like crap on OSX, and always has. Even if the systems were equal I doubt the Mac version would be faster. Since Adobe has dragged its feet on this issue and Premiere basically hasn't been good since 4.2, Apple took the ball into their own hands and created FCP. Since that was technically not in direct competition with Premiere due to price, it was more aimed at competition towards Avid and Media 100. HIGH END editing not intermediate. However I think what pissed Adobe off was Final Cut Express. THAT directly hits Premiere in the gut and is cheaper. Seems like there are personal issues there to me. However I've seen Adobe swing more development towards the Windows platform since Illustrator 7 was moved over and they agreed to have both platforms equal on software. Oh well, was bound to happen sooner or later so no surprise here to me.

You should check out the flame war at OSNews.com. Geez!


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## binaryDigit (Mar 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by hulkaros _
> *...Adobe(!?) web page is a bit hmmmmmmmm?
> 
> Well, first of all:
> ...



They state that the configs aren't the fastest/latest, so what.  The absolute numbers aren't the point, it's the general trend.  If the Dell were 10% faster then a reasonable point could be made that there are bound to be several bench marks that go the other way, but you'd be hard pressed to find a benchmark that would swing towards the Mac, and if you did, it would be just that a single benchmark out of many that the Mac would lose.

Again, the exact configs aren't important (because of the LARGE discrepency) unless you truely think that Adobe is trying to intentionally cook the report.  Out of box the Dell kicks the Macs butt at a great many tasks, PERIOD.  Feel lucky they didn't start doing price/performance comparisons, OUCH.

Now what would be nice would be for Apple to say, "well, yeah, just trying those benchmarks *while* surfing *and* watching a quicktime movie and see who gets done quicker.  There the Mac would stand a chance and nobody really does these types of benchmarks since they don't represent the typical business use but more the typical consumer use (or at least the way I tend to work).


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## Sirtovin (Mar 25, 2003)

I for one am Angered by the language of the page... It's basically indirectly bashing Macintosh users by being politically correct... 

Huh... Simple... They are saying Wintel machines are faster... hmmm how many blue screen crashes are they really... taking into effect hehe.


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## binaryDigit (Mar 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sirtovin _
> *I for one am Angered by the language of the page... It's basically indirectly bashing Macintosh users by being politically correct...
> 
> Huh... Simple... They are saying Wintel machines are faster... hmmm how many blue screen crashes are they really... taking into effect hehe. *



Please, enough with the "blue screen" cracks.  I have used NT 4/Win2K at home and work now for the last 8 years and other than when I had a flakey Matrox card (an original Millenium no less) I would RARELY get blue screens.  I'm a developer and I'm one of those people who NEVER turn their computer off and am constantly working on lots of stuff at once.  The computer that I'm typing this on now (Win2K Prof) has been up since Jan 21'st! (whoa, better get some of those security patches installed).

I'm not saying that everyone is as fortunate.  But I highly doubt that my experience is just luck.  I also can't speak for WinME and the other non NT based Windows out there, maybe THEY have issues.  But the whole Mac putdown of blue screen this and blue screen that just shows that many Mac users are really starting to lose touch with reality and are starting to cling onto non existing threads in their attempts to feel better about themselves.

And FYI, I use a Mac everyday at home as well.


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## bolindilly (Mar 25, 2003)

it really is funny. apple now has a cult following. they have people, no matter how badly their products perform *in comparison to pc's*, who will make irrelevant arguments to defend apple.

don't get me wrong. i am an apple user myself, and i would never go back to using pc's. but, you have to give credit to the pc world where credit is due. they deal on such a larger market scale, so companies are able to throw much greater numbers of R&D, resulting in faster, more efficient products. the mac has ease of use and great performance as well, but lets just admit that pc's have their advantages.

example: ASP is a server-side web language developed by microsoft. it can do create things with very simple syntax (in comparison to perl) because microsoft has the resources to spend and develop something, and then develop a standard that other companies and people can perfect.

i kinda just got off on a rant there, but my point is simple: praise apple when they deserved to be praised, and give the pc's credit when they actually deserve it. in the processing world, pc's have no doubt surpassed the mac. no one doubts it. macs may be easier to use, but that's a different thread.


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## hulkaros (Mar 25, 2003)

We are telling the truth about Macs being better/faster than Wintels and Adobe defends their products because they perform badly on the Dark Side of the Force 

After all, we have MANY benchmarks to back this up while they have ONLY 4 poorly based graphs showing their "truth" 

As for Windows NT/2K/XP NOT having BSOD I keep forgetting that guess what? They DO have them but now you get them while you have a boot problem or you get them via windows messages similar to these:
-Do you want to post this crash back to M$?
-This program cannot end itself: Do you want to End this now manually?

Accept the truth? What truth? The Wintel one? Come on! Can anyone answer this?
-What is the overall performance of a Dull (insert ANY Wintel here) computer when it gets full of viruses, hard disk fragmentation, "Do you want to send this crash report back to M$?" messages, security holes, etc?

The thing that Adobe does on that web page is a propaganda and a bad one that is! If they REALLY have a case they should prove it and not just cook one and a half baked one that is!


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## binaryDigit (Mar 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by hulkaros _*...
> After all, we have MANY benchmarks to back this up while they have ONLY 4 poorly based graphs showing their "truth" *



Really, can you point me to some?  I haven't seen any somewhat recent ones that have been "decently" done.



> *
> As for Windows NT/2K/XP NOT having BSOD I keep forgetting that guess what? They DO have them but now you get them while you have a boot problem or you get them via windows messages similar to these:
> -Do you want to post this crash back to M$?
> -This program cannot end itself: Do you want to End this now manually?
> *



The only time I see the first message is when IE dies because the streaming plugin that I use crashes it when the network connection is lost.  I have MANY occasions to kill programs that won't die nicely, but this is usually stuff that I'm personally working on.  Plus, this type of thing (flakey apps) happens just as well on the Mac (had to kill Mozilla just last night because it got real unhappy trying to load a pdf).



> *
> Accept the truth? What truth? The Wintel one? Come on! Can anyone answer this?
> -What is the overall performance of a Dull (insert ANY Wintel here) computer when it gets full of viruses, hard disk fragmentation, "Do you want to send this crash report back to M$?" messages, security holes, etc?
> *



Again, please, do you actually use a Wintel box?  I've never had a virus (knock on wood) in all the years I have used pc's.  I NEVER open executable attachments sent to me (unless it's something that I asked someone I know for explicitly).  I don't run virus scanners (they hose up systems worse than virus's) and I actually do use outlook and have IIS running (at the office, at home I use a different pop3 reader and use apache and not IIS).  ALL file systems have to deal with fragmentation, NTFS is better than FAT, and maybe HFS+ (or whatever OSX uses) is better than NTFS, but they ALL have to deal with it and all suffer from it.  And how is reporting a problem back to M$ now a "problem".  Safari has a button to report problems back to Apple.  When mozilla craters it asks if I want to send a report back.  Is it purely because the report is going back to M$ that makes this bad?  And like OSX never has security holes?  Yes, they look to be doing a much better job at patching them quickly than M$ does, but the fact that 90+% of the world is using M$ probably has as much to do with the number of virus' and security issues than just simply M$ write crappy code (which they do btw).

So once again, PUUULEEEZZZZE stop with the Wintel stereotyping.  The Wintel platform is not perfect, but neither is the Mac.  They both have strengths and weaknesses and like it or not, Wintel has made great strides in getting their stuff up to snuff afa reliability and ease of use go.  Are they up to Apple/Mac standards, no.  Are they worlds behind like in the 90's, absolutely not.  Will they continue to improve, you better believe it.


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## hulkaros (Mar 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by binaryDigit _
> *Again, please, do you actually use a Wintel box?  I've never had a virus (knock on wood) in all the years I have used pc's. *



I would gladly go on and EVEN send you pictures of how ALL Windows versions act VERY strange MANY times each and every day sometimes not doing anything even remotely important but actually I won't! The reason is the above quote of yours... 

You know what? You should hand over your system to M$ for "no-viruses in all your computer years case studies"!  And you know why? Because even M$ in the past couple of months had MANY problems with security holes and viruses in their OWN systems running THEIR OSes...  

Is Apple losing in speed areas VS the Wintel world? Yes and no... Are they going to do something about it? Heck yes! Patience is virtue  As for Wintel improving their stuff: Heck yes! They have many many things to copy from Apple in the years ahead like OS X, hardware and software design in general as well as the way of combining these things together...  XP+Centrino anyone?


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## binaryDigit (Mar 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by hulkaros _
> *...
> You know what? You should hand over your system to M$ for "no-viruses in all your computer years case studies"!  And you know why? Because even M$ in the past couple of months had MANY problems with security holes and viruses in their OWN systems running THEIR OSes...
> ...
> *



You're referring to their servers.  I don't have a Windows based machine acting as a server (i.e. visible to the internet).  Again, I avoid virus' by a few very incredibly simple steps:<br>
<br>
1. Turn OFF "hide know file extensions" so you can ALWAYS see the full name of any attachments sent.<br>
<br>
2. NEVER execute any executable attachment sent via email (exe, scripts, etc) unless you explicitly know the source and REASON the executable is being sent.  I even tell my friends to NEVER bother to send me an executable because I will NEVER run it.<br>
<br>
3. Never execute a program downloaded from a website that is not "known" to you (i.e. make sure you're downloading an app from the COMPANIES website, avoid mirrors and other non official sites).<br>
<br>
4. Use an internet router and stealth ALL your ports.  The average home user has no reason at all to have ANY ports open to the outside world.  I have a couple that get forwarded so I tinker.<br>
<br>
So 4 VERY easy steps to computing bliss.  I'm even terrible at loading patches/service packs.  At home I've only loaded SP2 since that was the service pack available when I did the install, not one service pack or security update since, never need to.  Now granted, most of my other friends don't do this, and by golly they do get nailed.  I've pretty effectively drilled this into my wifes head though and she hasen't had any virus issues on her computer at home or work in over 4 years now.<br>
<br>
Now security holes exist, I'm not saying that WinXXX is fool proof.  But then again, didn't Apple just release a security patch two days ago.  Didn't they also release another security patch a few weeks ago?  Just because the script kiddies love to attack M$ doesn't mean that Mac users can somehow be snug and smirk about how insecure Windows is while having to integrate security patches on their own systems every couple of weeks.


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## xyle_one (Mar 25, 2003)

i blue screen everyday with my xp machine at work. on my win2k machine at home, which i only use abut once a week now,  blue screens everytime i use it. when i am watching video, and move a window, it crashes. when i am listening to music, and move a dialog box in Viz or autocad, the music stops playing. so even if the pc is faster, i can get more work done on my mac because i am not trying to make it work, and i dont have to restart 2-3 times a day. it just works. some people get lucky with their wintel machines, and they run like a dream. but most do not, like me and most of the people i know.  windows crashes a lot. how have you used win2k for 8 years?? anyways. my mac never gives me problems. it does what i want and doesnt get in my way.


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## binaryDigit (Mar 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by xyle_one _
> *i blue screen everyday with my xp machine at work. on my win2k machine at home, which i only use abut once a week now,  blue screens everytime i use it. when i am watching video, and move a window, it crashes. when i am listening to music, and move a dialog box in Viz or autocad, the music stops playing. so even if the pc is faster, i can get more work done on my mac because i am not trying to make it work, and i dont have to restart 2-3 times a day. it just works. some people get lucky with their wintel machines, and they run like a dream. but most do not, like me and most of the people i know.  windows crashes a lot. how have you used win2k for 8 years?? anyways. my mac never gives me problems. it does what i want and doesnt get in my way. *



Have you checked your video drivers?  In all my years of Wintel ownership, video drivers and cards have caused me the most grief bar none.  I haven't used Win2k for 8 years, I've used either NT4 or Win2K for 8 years.  I've "only" been using Win2K for about 3, and I had to be drug kicking and screaming off of NT4 because it WAS so reliable.  It wasn't until Win2k proved itself (and I needed the USB support) that I made the switch (I was the last on in our company to do so, much to the relief of our IT staff).  Having worked in NT/Win2K shops for 8 years now (software development), I just don't get why people seem to have problems.  This has just NOT been my experience, even with those I have direct contact with in other companies.  I always assumed that most BSOD's were related to 16bit (95/98/ME/...) fork.  Is this simply users giving up and not actually trying to track down the source of their issues?

My box at home is pieced together by me and has evolved over the years (I don't think that I have a piece from the original I built 8 years ago) and I do tend to use "proven" hardware (I've long since given up on the bleeding edge thing, I only upgraded off of my 233mhz AMD K6-2 two years ago!) so this might help my cause.  But then again most of my friends have Dells (and a few Gateways, heaven help them) and pretty much every place I've worked in that time frame uses Dell's and we haven't had those types of problems (even though I consider Dell's POS).  This just shows the downside to having SOOOO many hardware/driver choices.   I hate M$ just a much (if not more for some fairly esoteric reasons) as anyone else, but in many ways they get a bad rap because of the crappy drivers that many manuf. put out for their stuff (again back to the video card example, on the Matrox the actual drivers from Matrox would BSOD me regularly, several times a day.  However the M$ Win2k default driver would run without a hitch, albiet with a slight performance penalty).

Anyway, give 90% of the computing population Macs and you'd get a huge number of people whining about spinning beach balls and sad macs and extension collisions (ALL of which I've dealt/deal with on my Macs).  Security holes, virus's, etc, etc.


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## jens@dna (Mar 25, 2003)

Speed, speed blablabla

You probably run faster in a pair of noname sneakers but a pair of gucci's makes you look good while doing it.


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## hulkaros (Mar 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jens@dna _
> *Speed, speed blablabla
> 
> You probably run faster in a pair of noname sneakers but a pair of gucci's makes you look good while doing it. *


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## kendall (Mar 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jens@dna _
> *Speed, speed blablabla
> 
> You probably run faster in a pair of noname sneakers but a pair of gucci's makes you look good while doing it. *



that makes me think of the wrong tool for the job and according to Adobe, Macs are the wrong tool for DV editing.


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## hulkaros (Mar 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kendall _
> *that makes me think of the wrong tool for the job and according to Adobe, Macs are the wrong tool for DV editing.  *



...wrong apps   Now, if only Adobe compared Final Cut VS Premiere running on a Mac and/or a Wintel  

So, you see the wrong tools for DV editing on a computer are actually the Adobe ones 

As for Wintel based DV, if one is actually smart he/she would go for an Athlon XP based solution or even an Athlon MP solution and not that poor fella P4/3GHz 

And to return at your quote... According to Adobe of course Macs are wrong tools for DV but not because they lack the power... Oh no! But because they have a much better power that one cannot find at the Dark Side!

Hint-Hint!
-------------
FCP (or if you prefer FCE  )


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## serpicolugnut (Mar 26, 2003)

This spat between Adobe and Apple is only going to get bigger.

First of all, in retaliation for FCP and FCE, Adobe is going to kill the Mac version of Premiere. The next major release will be PC only.

Second, Apple could and should really clean up here by creating FCP and FCE bundles. For example: But a new Power Mac, and get FCP for $499, or FCE for $149. It will not only spur software sales, but also pro hardware sales, an area where Apple could stand to move additional units.

It is clear that due to FCP, FCE and iPhoto, Adobe views Apple as a partner and a competitor, and Adobe has decided that it would rather pull its competing products (Premiere, Photoshop Album) from the Mac platform than compete head to head with Apple...

I'm sure Apple's none too pleased that Adobe is partnering with and selling Dells on their website either...


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## David Simmons (Mar 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by hulkaros _
> *Browse here:
> http://www.adobe.com/motion/pcpreferred.html
> 
> ...


 This is exactly what worries me about Apple. The G4 line is incredibly with OSX but, the price is on the very high side in compare to what the consumer is getting.  The software developers know this and are reacting.  Microsoft, Intel, are Im sure are making this easier for the software developers.  Apple developers must keep the software developers and consumers on board by pushing technology or they will lose them again.

I hope Apple skips the next .XX CPU releases and brings some big guns to the table like G5.  Software developers, as well as consumers always goes the way of the fastest and most cost affected way to get what they need.


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## hulkaros (Mar 26, 2003)

...PC PREFERRED...

Browse here:
http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/2003/03/25/appleresponds/

And I was starting to think that Apple isn't reading us


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## kendall (Mar 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by hulkaros _
> *...PC PREFERRED...
> 
> Browse here:
> ...



Apple's reply,

"We at Apple swear our computers are as fast or faster than PCs.  Really, we do!  Cross our hearts, hope to die.  You believe us right?  Right?  Please believe us!"

The Apple rep. then proceeded to break down and cry.

"For the love of Christ, somebody help us!  There is no G5!  All we have for the next seven years is the G4 and bluetooth.  We are so f*cked!  Please don't leave us Adobe!  Adobe?  Adobe?  Adobe?  We're scared Adobe.  Adobe?"

bwahahahaha!


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## serpicolugnut (Mar 26, 2003)

XP Professional?

Can you say "oxymoron"?


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## hulkaros (Mar 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kendall _
> *Apple's reply,
> 
> "We at Apple swear our computers are as fast or faster than PCs.  Really, we do!  Cross our hearts, hope to die.  You believe us right?  Right?  Please believe us!"
> ...



Obviously this comes from someone who haven't even see let alone use Premiere/Effects VS FCP (about Express I dunno) now, isn't it? I thought so...


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## hulkaros (Mar 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by serpicolugnut _
> *XP Professional?
> 
> Can you say "oxymoron"?
> ...



Let me explain:
-XtraPain Home
-XtraPain Professional

So, there 

That's why M$ didn't name after XP their new version of Windows: Windows 2003 Server! Now, that's an oxymoron! Windows and serving


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## serpicolugnut (Mar 27, 2003)

For an interesting take on this whole subject, visit CreativeMac...http://www.creativemac.com

David Nagel, the author, has some interesteing observations about the whole mess...


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## Arden (Mar 28, 2003)

Regardless of which is faster than what in which test or whatever, the bottom line is that Adobe should do everything it can to make its software run the best on any platform, and let its users choose the platform they feel best suits their purposes.


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