# Mac Vs. PC



## macjones (Jul 20, 2006)

I am a designer and I work with this kid strait out of college who wont shut up about how much better PC's are than Macs despite the fact that he too is a designer. I know that Mac's are better and why, I just need some quick reasons to list as to why Mac's are the designers choice. Any help?


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## nixgeek (Jul 20, 2006)

I would just ignore him like you would ignore a little dog that yaps a lot.  No need to fuel the fire.  If you know it works better for you than Windows, than that's all that matters.  So long as you get the job done.  Apple, Macs, and Mac OS X will speak for themselves.


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## MosGuy (Jul 20, 2006)

As a PC tech for 17 years vs only 3 years with OS X. Personally I don't get wrapped up in the whole Mac vs PC debate. Both are good systems and in most areas are on par with each other such as Photoshop work etc. In some areas Macs excel in others Windows is better. If you each feel your OS is better then the other one well that's fine. As long as you can do your job well it doesn't matter which OS it is.


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## nixgeek (Jul 20, 2006)

MosGuy said:


> As a PC tech for 17 years vs only 3 years with OS X. Personally I don't get wrapped up in the whole Mac vs PC debate. Both are good systems and in most areas are on par with each other such as Photoshop work etc. In some areas Macs excel in others Windows is better. If you each feel your OS is better then the other one well that's fine. As long as you can do your job well it doesn't matter which OS it is.



Well said.  Sadly, this kid probably won't care.  I've seen this too often myself when some people get so overly fanatic about a platform, especially young guns that think they know everything about computers when in reality it's only within the Windows realm.  Use what works for you and that's it.  For me, it's Linux and Mac OS X.  I try not to do Windows as much, but only because I have to for work.


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## Qion (Jul 20, 2006)

Just tell him that he's not God and should get over his complex. 

Other than that, the only real way to "show" him is to actually _show_ him. Put out some phenomenal work or show him your workflow. 

(You could also mention the fact that nearly every graphic artist -that at least I can think of in my experience- uses a Mac. I wonder why that is...? )


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## MosGuy (Jul 20, 2006)

nixgeek said:


> Well said.  Sadly, this kid probably won't care.  I've seen this too often myself when some people get so overly fanatic about a platform, especially young guns that think they know everything about computers when in reality it's only within the Windows realm.  Use what works for you and that's it.  For me, it's Linux and Mac OS X.  I try not to do Windows as much, but only because I have to for work.



Well I agree, I've shifted into the Linux and OS X fields as much as I can as the PC field is over crowded. I only use my PC for gaming these days. Your right the kid won't care and I've seen the debates get out of control. I wouldn't say it's only in the Windows world. I've seen Mac and Unix people be just as fanatic and get down right nasty to anyone running the 'other' operating systems.. Personally I think they're all full of it and living in a dream world. If they have nothing better to do with their time then bad mouth other operating systems. As they all have their pro and cons, but it's not worth trying to get through to people so I just sit there and have a good laugh. Then get back using the best of all three OSes . I've seen some amazing design work produced on a Mac and also on the PC, so it's just a matter of personal perference really.


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## Mikuro (Jul 21, 2006)

Depends on what you do. I find Macs to be much better for graphics work primarily because of the global menu bar, which makes application windows more free. Working with three or four images in Photoshop is a pain in the butt on Windows. Working with multiple apps at once is also a hassle. (Granted, I'm sure this is something I would get used to if I had to use Windows daily for an extended period of time.)

For video work...well, I've never done any on Windows, so it's hard to say, but I imagine it wouldn't be much worse than on the Mac, since Mac video programs aren't very Mac-like to begin with. Depends on the quality of Windows software more than the OS itself.

You might see Windows' vast software library as an advantage, but it can also be a liability, because the signal-to-noise ratio when searching for software is awful. 90% of Windows software is crap; and worse yet, it seems that most people don't even know it, or don't even care. This is expecially true of video encoders. I see so many corrupt/non-compliant video files made with Windows programs. Nobody seems to notice, because it plays in WMP (with whatever codec packs they have installed). But it won't play in any compliant players. Ugh. The same thing has happened with web design; many sites are designed to rely on _bugs_ in Internet Explorer. (This isn't as much of an issue today as it was 5 years ago, though.)

On the Mac side, we have all the tools we need, and they're actually _good_. Thank god OS X is Unix-based, because we get a ton of well-written software made by programmers who really know what they're doing.



But ultimately, when it comes to creative work, the better platform is the one you _like_. The truth is, I chose the Mac OS over Windows back in the mid-90s. And the mid-90s (and earlier) is when the Mac gained its popularity among designers. When you look back at that time frame, it's no wonder. Windows was garbage, System 7 worked. The Mac was unquestionably more friendly towards "non-techy" people, so of course it appealed more to people who were used to "old-fashioned" creative mathods

But none of the reasons I had back then really still apply. The only constant is the global menu bar &#8212; which is no small thing, from an interface designer's perspective. And many creative people today _grew up_ using computers. They were computer geeks before they were art geeks, unlike the people from 10 years ago. To them, things like intuitive interfaces simply don't matter, because they already know everything about computers.



I don't think creative types are drawn to Macs so much because Macs are good for creative tasks (even though I think Macs _are_). I think they're drawn to Macs because they just _like_ Macs. There's something about the Mac OS that appeals to creative types &#8212; probably because it was _made_ by creative types. Back in the 90s, Windows was so ugly it was just depressing (and I wouldn't argue with anyone who said it still is); what creative person would want to submit themselves to that every day? The philosophy that shows through the design of the Mac OS is friendly and conducive to creativity (for me, anyway). Windows has an entirely different philosophy.

I know, the second I say "philosophy", 99% of the world stops taking me seriously, but to me, that's what it's all about. Software is an art. Interface design is an art. The philosophy and emotions of an artist will always come through in their work. Call it a "vibe" if you want (for lack of a better word, I will, too). The vibe I get from Windows makes me angry on a very basic level, and I'm not it top creative form when I'm angry.

Both platforms are capable, so again, it comes down to which one you like, for whatever subjective, hazy reasons you have.

</rambling>

Edit: Hey, I just noticed you're from NYC. Me too.


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## fryke (Jul 21, 2006)

What's the aim of the discussion? I.e.: What does he want to reach? Does he want to "convert" you to his opinion or is this about what PCs/Macs to use at work? Depending on what's this kid's goal, your answer should be different. If all he wants to do is a private little flamewar, then just tell him _your_ opinion and end the discussion with a "We'll have to agree to disagree here." - discussion done. If this is about buying new hardware for the office and it's your call (dunno...), then let _him_ make a case. I think it's easier to defend here than to attack.


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## macjones (Jul 21, 2006)

Very good explanation. I completely agree. Also good to see NYC graphics represented.


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## Rhisiart (Jul 21, 2006)

fryke said:


> ....If this is about buying new hardware for the office and it's your call (dunno...), then let _him_ make a case. I think it's easier to defend here than to attack.


I can see the sense in discussing Mac Vs PC if someone is looking to spend a fair amount of money on a new computer for their home or small business. You obviously want to get the decision right.

If it's a one-up-manship issue, well I'd change the subject to quantum physics, sport, women, flatulence, global warming, whatever .....


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## tagliatelle (Jul 21, 2006)

The most up to date mac I own is an early mac mini. My Acer notebook Aspire 3633wlmi runs xp, vista and office 2007.


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## Natobasso (Jul 28, 2006)

macjones said:


> I am a designer and I work with this kid strait out of college who wont shut up about how much better PC's are than Macs despite the fact that he too is a designer. I know that Mac's are better and why, I just need some quick reasons to list as to why Mac's are the designers choice. Any help?



If he's such an expert he'd know macs are much better at app switching. On a pc you're constantly going to the taskbar down at the bottom of the screen to switch programs. PCs have sucky font aliasing as well (and sucky fonts!)


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## nixgeek (Jul 28, 2006)

Natobasso said:


> If he's such an expert he'd know macs are much better at app switching. On a pc you're constantly going to the taskbar down at the bottom of the screen to switch programs. PCs have sucky font aliasing as well (and sucky fonts!)



I beg to differ on this.  You can Alt-Tab on the Windows PC and get to the needed app quickly that way.  You can even do this in OS X by hitting Command-Tab.  Of course, OS X also has Expose which is a step up from that, but when you don't need to see all the windows that are open and just want to switch to another app quickly, Alt-Tab in Windows and Command Tab in Mac OS X are the way to go.

As for the fonts included with Windows, I think they're very good....some of which (like Arial) have even been included in Mac OS X (although probably not Microsoft's version).  The only environment that i say REALLY needs work in the font department is X11 in Linux/*BSD.  Those are really bad (and I love using Linux!).  As far as the aliasing, it's not that bad either.  If you select the ClearType, it's actually quite nice (IMO).  But then Mac OS X wins in this area even against Windows and X11 desktops combined.


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## Natobasso (Jul 28, 2006)

I can't get alt + tab to work on my laptop running windows xp...


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## nixgeek (Jul 28, 2006)

Natobasso said:


> I can't get alt + tab to work on my laptop running windows xp...



Really???  Something's up there then.  I can even do it in Gnome and KDE in Linux.  Alt-Tab has always worked in Windows since I can remember, and that's back to Windows 3.x.  Have you tried with the other Alt key?  Maybe you have a bad key.


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## Natobasso (Aug 2, 2006)

Nah, I was just not doing it correctly.  It works fine. So much for that argument. Honestly, these days there's less and less difference between pcs and macs due to the intel chips in macs and goflyakite.com software that gives you a doc and all the os x bells and whistles on a pc...

Still like macs better, though. I don't have to clickthrough three different menus levels just to shut down.


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## nixgeek (Aug 2, 2006)

That's true.  Even still, those quasi-Mac shells for Windows just don't cut the mustard when compared to the real thing.


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## RGrphc2 (Aug 6, 2006)

I dont know where this should be, but i thought this would be a funny story to tell.  This one girl at one of my jobs at the Supermarket, asked if i had an iPod and i was like yeah, and I'm probably the only person in this store that uses a Mac as well.  her response "no cause I have an iPod too".

well needless to say, I had to explain to her that Apple also makes computers that are a hell of a lot better designed that Dell/HP/etc makes.

and yes, I am the only person in my grocery store, that ues a mac.  about 300 employees.  and only 1 mac user, the rest all use pcs, and all know of my hatred of them (PCs).

I am a Switcher. the biggest reason for my switch, My Dell...nothing but problems.  Powerbook is love


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## Natobasso (Aug 6, 2006)

Kinda funny; I'm a dyed-in-the-wool mac user. Since 1983. But now I'm using a Dell Inspiron to teach myself to program .net and it's not half bad. The main difference, I'm finding, is that I've got to keep a real close eye on viruses and spybots. It's amazing how many free programs there are out there for the pc to defend against viruses!

The Dell works well, but too many of its features (Windows XP) take too long to access. The Mac is brilliant at keeping everything within 3 clicks or fewer.


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## davebz (Aug 16, 2006)

Interesting comments.  I was working as a product rep at a major retailer for a while and there was a kid there who basically feels that "mac users are losers".  We debated a little bit and talked about the differences.  Most of his comments were FUD including the idea that Linux came before Unix.  LOL!  In a nutshell, I don't talk to him anymore especially after fixing a friend's PC that HE built.


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## oceanicitl (Sep 7, 2006)

Natobasso said:


> ....there's less and less difference between pcs and macs due to the intel chips in macs...



I can't believe I've just read that. Macs are NOTHING like PCs thank god!!


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## oceanicitl (Sep 7, 2006)

davebz said:


> Interesting comments.  I was working as a product rep at a major retailer for a while and there was a kid there who basically feels that "mac users are losers".  We debated a little bit and talked about the differences.  Most of his comments were FUD including the idea that Linux came before Unix.  LOL!  In a nutshell, I don't talk to him anymore especially after fixing a friend's PC that HE built.



I'm not surprised you're not speaking to him. I have to say that after 10 years of working in support I have ALWAYS found mac users to be more friendly, more approachable and generally just nicer people. If I was standing next to a PC user in a lift they would ignore me where a mac user would usually smile and say hello. That says it all I think


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## fryke (Sep 7, 2006)

Erh... Macs run Windows natively. So at least from a Windows installation CD's point of view, Macs walk and talk like a PC, although they might not look like one. But then such a CD rarely has eyes (thank God!).
If you look at the components used for building a Mac and a PC, if you look at the manufacturers building Apple's computers, you'll see that the main distinctive points are still Mac OS X - and design. Granted: Those are really, really important points - at least they are for me - but you can't change the fact that Macs _are_ PCs now by simply saying "Macs are NOTHING like PCs thank god!!" The extra exclamation mark and the ALL-CAPS-screaming don't make much of a positive difference, either. 

Oh, and: Even if you _admit_ that they're PCs, they can still be the PCs of your choice and better than the rest in your opinion. NOTHING changes THAT!!


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## oceanicitl (Sep 7, 2006)

The components that make a mac may be the same as PCs but they are and always will be different. As apple themselves say in all the latest ads...  you can take them out the box and they work. Simple.

(no caps, no exclamation points)


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## fryke (Sep 7, 2006)

Well, yes, but as I've said, that's the OS' doing. I don't deny Mac OS X' superiority, if you re-read my post.


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## spgmr2005 (Sep 7, 2006)

Dudes...i'm only a 19-year-old "kid" and I don't really care about the whole Mac v. PC debate. I've used PCs my entire life and they've worked just fine. I just want to switch because a Mac is something totally new to me, and I'll know that I'll have a great experience. I'm just sayin'...use what you're good at, and if you happen to be "too good" at it, then just try something new. Expand your horizons. Thats what I'm doing.


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## nixgeek (Sep 7, 2006)

spgmr2005 said:


> Dudes...i'm only a 19-year-old "kid" and I don't really care about the whole Mac v. PC debate. I've used PCs my entire life and they've worked just fine. I just want to switch because a Mac is something totally new to me, and I'll know that I'll have a great experience. I'm just sayin'...use what you're good at, and if you happen to be "too good" at it, then just try something new. Expand your horizons. Thats what I'm doing.



I have to admit that's a pretty good perspective to have when it comes to computers.  I use Mac OS X, Mac OS 9 and earlier, Windows, and various distros of Linux.  I've even given NetBSD a try (when I tried to install it on my Quadra 650) as well as PC-BSD and FreeBSD for a short while.  I might take another shot at FreeBSD sometime soon.  And the wonderful thing about the open source operating systems is that they can run on other platforms, not just x86.  I've already installed Ubuntu and Debian on my PowerPC based Macs and they run great.  I'm also thinking about giving NextenaOS a try as well but probably once I'm more familiar with *BSD. 

I've also used BeOS and it was my main OS for a while before it went down the tubes.

Long story short, it's always good to try new systems...you learn more about the good and bad of each system for yourself in order to make a more educated decision.


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## Rhisiart (Sep 7, 2006)

I started with Windows in 1995 and it was OK. I was introduced to Macs by a medical research director in 1999, who suggested that in order to save time, you need a relatively stable system. He suggested that Apple was the best of the worst (pre-OS X era, when lets face it, freezes occurred all too often).

If I was stuck with Windows now (Vista, whatever) with no alternative, I feel it would be equivalent to doing the laundry - essential but dull.


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## Viro (Sep 8, 2006)

spgmr2005 said:


> Dudes...i'm only a 19-year-old "kid" and I don't really care about the whole Mac v. PC debate. I've used PCs my entire life and they've worked just fine. I just want to switch because a Mac is something totally new to me, and I'll know that I'll have a great experience. I'm just sayin'...use what you're good at, and if you happen to be "too good" at it, then just try something new. Expand your horizons. Thats what I'm doing.



Someone once said that the best way to tell how good a computer is would be to use it in anger. The reason for that is simple. 

When you're using a computer and you're not stressed, you tend to look at the bright side of things and you put up with the little annoyances, so much so that you don't notice them anymore. On the other hand, if you're using it under extreme stress and you just can't be arsed about how "cool" the computer is, and only want to get your work done, any annoyance will jump straight out at ya, and make you want to smash that computer to bits. That's the "use it in anger" test.

From my experience, Windows doesn't hold up under the use it in anger test. This is from my experience as an undergraduate, 4 weeks before my B.Sc dissertation was due. Linux does better, but Macs are way ahead of the curve, in my experience.

edit: Feel that I should elaborate more what I mean, as most of what I've said sounds rather nebulous. Below are some of the things that I remember completely and utterly annoyed me when I used PCs in stress, with comparisons of how they hold up to Mac OS X.

*1) Message boxes. *
How many times have you seen an [OK, Cancel] message box on Windows? This is a real annoyance as it forces you to read the entire content of the message box before making a decision. This isn't a big deal normally, but when you are tired and under stress, mistakes are very likely to happen as you won't read the message text or incorrectly understand what it says. Worse are the [Abort, Retry, Ignore] ones. It isn't immediately obvious to the user what each of those buttons will do. Will abort make me lose my work? Will Retry/Ignore cause the computer to crash, making me lose even more work? What? 

Contrast this with how things are done on the Mac. You do not ever see an [OK, Cancel] message box, if those applications are adhering to Apple's guidelines. For example, what you will see when closing an unsaved document is the following buttons [Don't Save, Cancel, Save] with Save being a pulsing blue. Each button makes it immediately clear, what action will result from clicking on the button. This is in stark contrast with Windows message boxes, where it isn't immediately obvious what clicking a button will do, forcing you to have to read the text in the message box (which can sometimes be highly cryptic!!).

*2) Applications stealing focus. *
I usually run many applications at once. A typical work scenario is I get some neural net simulation running, switch to another application (Word, Mail, etc) and start typing away. What happens with my simulation finishes? Under Windows, what's most likely to happen is an application that has completed its task will jump to the foreground, taking the keyboard focus from the user. This is bloody annoying, as I type at about 100 wps, meaning that about 4 - 5 words would have been typed into the wrong application before I realize what's happened. What's worse, you've got many of apps hidden in your status bar(? The one next to the clock) and these periodically jump to the foreground too, like anti-virus apps, spyware detectors, etc. when they perform their scheduled tasks. Do they need to steal the focus when they are running their scheduled tasks? No! Do I need to know that they're doing their scheduled task? No! Just do the task in the background! 

How is this different on the Mac? If the app isn't poorly coded (i.e. a half-@$$ed port from Windows) it will make use of notifications correctly. What does this look like? By bouncing the applications icon in the dock, and not stealing focus from the current application. This allows the user to continue working in the current app. More importantly, it places control back in the users hands. The user gets to decide when they switch applications, instead of having the application decide. It's like when you work in an office. Would you rather see people when you're ready for them, or would you like people to just jump into your office whenever *they* are ready?

*3) Wizards*
Microsoft loves wizards. This is really exhibited with their 7 - 8 step wizards, for simple things like creating documents from templates, and setting up Wireless networks. Why are these annoying? Imagine trying to do something when you are short of time and just need to get it done ASAP. Wizards  bombard you with information you do not need, and they take many more mouse clicks to get done. Admittedly, I didn't use many applications that made extensive use of wizards, but it was still annoying when they did turn up. I remember one wizard that really really pissed me off, but I can't remember what it was for, nor which application it was from. 

*4) The awful taskbar *
What's the taskbar there for? It's there to allow you quick access to the applications you are currently running. To make that easier, Microsoft decided to make the size of application in the task bar vary, depending on how many applications are running at once. Not only that, the default behavior of the task bar on Windows XP is to group similar applications together.Of course, users stupid so you can't trust them to do such a simple task well. Instead, Windows will decide for the user when an application has opened enough windows to warrant them being grouped together. In all its wisdom, Microsoft decided that keeping the size of applications, and their position in the task bar was bad for usability. Apparently, there's a usability law somewhere which dictates that users need to be kept on their toes by constantly resizing and repositioning of applications in the task bar. Surely, the computer must make them take their eyes off their work, make them examine all the windows in the taskbar to pick out the application they are after. Remind them that the computer is there, it's not going away, and it's in control. The user? Pfeh. Inconsequential.

The Macs on the other hand aren't too much better. The Dock is an improvement in that regard, as common applications can be dragged and kept in the dock. However, the dock still resizes when you run applications that aren't already in the dock. This means that the absolute position of the icon moves. Not nearly as much as with the Windows taskbar, but still enough for you to hit the wrong icon if you aren't paying attention. 

Phew. Don't ever let me rant again. I'm sure if I booted up a Windows XP machine and had to use it while a deadline was near, I'd come up with more annoyances. I've forgotten most of them after not having used windows since 2002


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## shresblo_h2o (Sep 8, 2006)

The latest Macs are basically Premium PC's. 

PC had the initial idea to upgrade to use USB but Mac beat 'em to it cos M$ wouldn't spend the cash to kickstart the change.  

PC had the idea to upgrade their PC's from BIOS to EFI Firmware but once again wouldn't spend the cash needed to get the ball rolling.  Once again Mac took the idea, ran with it and you now have the intel macs.

Macs run Windows better than PC's do.


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## oceanicitl (Sep 8, 2006)

LOL I like it. Thanks to Viro and shresblo for your comments. Happy damn Fridayyyyyyy!


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## Rhisiart (Sep 8, 2006)

Viro. Intersting summary of Mac vs Pc.

Just a couple of points about the Mac Dock. 

At the risk of ranting yet again over this issue, I really wish Apple would make the Dock lockable (i.e. you can only remove an icon by holding down ALT as you slide it out of the Dock). 

Too many times I have accidently removed icons from the Dock (I get around this now with TransparentDock, which locks the Dock, but you have to keep loading the programme to make any changes to the Dock, which is a friggin drag).

Secondly, I would like app windows that have reduced to the Dock to keep their names visible at all times, not just when you hover the mouse of the icon. 

If I have many apps open and some windows are resting in the dock, I'd like to see their names so I know which one to click to reopen it. Currently you have to hover the mouse over each one until you find it.

There, I've got that off my chest.

Apple, are you listening?


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## Esquilinho (Sep 8, 2006)

hey, Viro, happy birthday!


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## Viro (Sep 9, 2006)

Hehe, thanks


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