# Why do they hate us?



## themacko (Jan 11, 2002)

I just do not understand why people hate Apple.  Why?  What is it about Apple that causes so many people to come out and publicly bash the company, it's products and it's users?

Most of the time, hatred is created through jealousy or theat.  Are Windows users threatened by the Macintosh?  I would hope not, Apple computers only make up about 5% of the market (which I find hard to believe, but I digress), if this is so then why do Macs garner so much attention?

Are Windows users jealouse of Apple and Mac users?  This could be for some, but certainly not most.  Mac users do not go around and bash Windows.  Mac users don't scoff at Microsoft (most of us) every chance we get.  I personally don't mind Microsoft.  I think they're sneaky and I don't like the way they are trying to rule the internet, but I have bought the last two versions of Office from them and use Internet Explorer.  I think they make decent software and I can respect them for that.

Why can't Windows users respect Apple for making decent computers and a good OS?  Where's the harm?  Someone please LOGICALLY explain this to me...

Maybe I'll just give up, get myself a Dell with Windows XP.  Sign up for Passport, MSN and .NET and be happy with a mediocre OS that gets hundreds of virus threats.  Hmmm....


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## ManicDVLN (Jan 11, 2002)

"Maybe I'll just give up, get myself a Dell with Windows XP. Sign up for Passport, MSN and .NET and be happy with a mediocre OS that gets hundreds of virus threats. Hmmm...."


This is why, the arrogance of mac users, claiming superiority, it's very snob like...


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## themacko (Jan 11, 2002)

What do you think you sound like?


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## BlingBling 3k12 (Jan 11, 2002)

Maybe it's because Apple actually INNOVATES! Who does the whole package? Nobody else!



> Maybe I'll just give up, get myself a Dell with Windows XP. Sign up for Passport, MSN and .NET and be happy with a mediocre OS that gets hundreds of virus threats. Hmmm....



Yes, go sign up for all those services and sign your personal information and privacy away!

When was the last time you ever saw on TV or the web a huge security exploit alert or extremely harmful virus alert for a MAC?!


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## ManicDVLN (Jan 11, 2002)

I sound like an asshole that make mac users realise their dillusions.


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## Jadey (Jan 11, 2002)

For the same reason Americans trash Canadians on this board - jealousy


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## tagliatelle (Jan 11, 2002)

Mostly, what you are saying is negative, there is enough promotional material from Apple. BTW The harddrive in your Dell can be used in a mac.


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## kenny (Jan 11, 2002)

You probably could have put up a poll; there's so many possible answers, a few of which you mention.

One that you didn't mention though, is my personal theory: Ignorance. That is, most people are not at all familiar with Apple, Macintosh or the notion that a community can still exist around something that is so mundane, so everyday as a desktop computer. The Windows userbase is largely made up of folks that may _like_ using Windows, but they certainly don't _love_ using it, and are generally painfully and personally aware of crashes, viruses, and other assorted nastiness. How could we be so mislead as to actually have something of an emotional attachments to our machines???

Another reason, unfortunately, is the Mac community's apparent belief that we have to vocally disagree with every little barb, misstatement, uninformed opinion or outright lie shot in our direction. You'd think that after all this time, we'd have collectively learned to pick our battles, but there's an embarrasing number of us who have not.

Combine these two, and it's much like the schoolyard bully: the smaller kid is known to cry and whine at the slightest provocation, and the bully doesn't know why, but it's so much fun to pick on the smaller kid. And, of course, the fear of the unknown (through ignorance) may very well invoke some feeling of being threatened, as you've mentioned.

If there's a sure-fire solution, I'm not sure what it is, but I've found that discussing the merits of Macintosh, without even mentioning Microsoft (except to discuss Office or IE) or Windows goes a long way to getting a more receptive ear. 

Unfortunately, I don't think that this medium is very useful for swaying new Mac users. The whole PC vs Mac debate has raged on so long that the bulletin-board/usenet arguments have all been played. I think that a more face-to-face approach is far more effective. I've a friend that plans to buy a 'Book sometime in the spring, and he's repeatedly attributed this decision on the things that we've discussed and that I've demonstrated.  I don't think this would have worked nearly as well if we'd conversed in an on-line forum of some kind.


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## BlingBling 3k12 (Jan 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Jadey _
> *For the same reason Americans trash Canadians on this board - jealousy  *



umm... that's just a few people... not all of us


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## swizcore (Jan 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Jadey _
> *For the same reason Americans trash Canadians on this board - jealousy  *



I am American and I love Canadians!  They created an awesome sport and the innovators are still better than the Americans at it...

BTW, It is really hard to follow certain threads which "that dumbass" posts in since he is now on my ignore list, so how's about nobody address anything he says ? That will make it better around here anyway. I refuse to EVER click on any of his posts because when I did read them they were just trash.

Feel free to reply/flame (insert name here (we all know who I speak of)) because I wont read it anyway...

...Regardiong this actual topic- I dont mind that "they" hate us - I think its funny that they are so arrogant and think we are the jaded ones. It says alot that we are the minority and are yet so militant in our support and "cause" if you will. Ive never given a rats ass what anyone thought of me or my actions and this remains true in my Mac circles.


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## RacerX (Jan 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Jadey _
> *For the same reason Americans trash Canadians on this board - jealousy  *



Who is trashing Canadians? Where did that come from?


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## Captain Code (Jan 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Jadey _
> *For the same reason Americans trash Canadians on this board - jealousy  *


HAHAHA


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## Koelling (Jan 11, 2002)

Kenny, I would like to shake your cyber hand. You really made me happy today when I read your responce to this thread. I opened it expecting a lot of Manic bashing and going back and forth like we usually do but your post was intelligent and insiteful, especially about the bully and the smaller kid. People always want to win. It doesn't matter if they know they have a losing team, if they gang up with the majority they will win. I am going to expose myself here and aknowledge my mistake this past week. My university, CU played in a bowl game against Oregan. I wanted to win and was sure that was going to happen because we have had a pretty good year beating Nebraska and all. Oregan stomped us and Miami stomped Nebraska. I spoke out against playing Oregan because I thought we should play Miami but in reality, neither us nor Nebraska were really fit to play in the bowl games we did. 

I rambled a lot more than I had hoped but my point is that people say things so that they feel better, but we all loose sometimes and if 95% of the market share would admit it, they would be a lot more productive on a Mac. (actually in a perfect world it would be 45% because there always needs to be competition.)


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## Jadey (Jan 11, 2002)

No, of course not everybody does. But search around the boards - it's depressingly common. Still, I think that PC people are jealous.


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## serpicolugnut (Jan 11, 2002)

I'm probably the one who's responsible for bad mouthing Candians, but really, it was meant in jest. I've got nothing against the country as a whole, it 's just I used to live/work in New Hampshire, and had to deal with Montreal/Quebec folks alot and found them to be almost completely rude and arrogant. Probably not a real barometer for the people of Canada. From what I understand, the rest of Canada isn't too thrilled with Quebec's threats of succession  from the nation....

Anyway... 

I'm just very proud and egotistical about where I live. I know most foreigners get very upset with American's arrogance, but I can't make any apologies for it. It's the greatest country on this earth, bar none. That said, if I couldn't have been born an American, my second choice would have been Canada.


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## edX (Jan 11, 2002)

> For the same reason Americans trash Canadians on this board - jealousy



i'm not even jealous of those people who live in parts of the usa where snow covers the ground and especially not canadians. the real reason canadians get bashed is because manic claims to be one. this is basically the same reasons that americans get bashed everywhere abroad. because we have too many self centered uncaring representatives of our country in contact with peoples of other nations. so a combination of experience and ignorance leads to this kind of bs.

hey, i've got news for you guys. this war, this hate thing you talk about. it's really a geek war. i have never encountered anyone who hated macs in particluar outside of the tech industry. actually outside of the internet!!! really, everyday people could care less. in the end this whole attacking thing is a 'my computer's bigger than your computer' thing. too bad computers aren't naturally phallic because that would complete the analogy beautifully. but maybe that is part of it. maybe macs are too feminine looking and threaten the masculinity of those who are trying to maintain theirs on a thread. 
 i will add that i think several other points that have been made so far are truthful and contribute to this adolescent debate between platforms. nothing like this ever boils down to one thing or another. 

again manic - take your lithium before you get hospitalized.


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## symphonix (Jan 11, 2002)

I love the idea of a geek war!


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## edX (Jan 12, 2002)

let me clarrify one thing - 

i am not talking about rational, growth oriented discussion of the pros and cons of each platform between two or more passionate computer owners. i am talking about the emotionally fueled tirades of name calling and benchmark pressing that seems to follow posts by manic and others like him. there is no real hate that takes place between humans who take the time to understand each other. differences can be resolved. but only if both parties are willing to work at it. those who are blinded by their own sense of importance (or lack thereof) will always attempt to reduce any attempt at negotitiation to a level they can manage. too often this is simply a dominate or submit strategy played at a schoolyard level - the last place this person actually succeded at anything in the eyes of their peers. 
so i don't think that themacko had it quite right when he asked 'why' windows users hate macs. most don't know enough about macs to do anything but nod when you mention them. the question should be: who are these windows elitists who feel a need to be better than others? what is it about them that makes them so miserable inside that they need to make others suffer as they do?
psychological research has shown that thses people generally suffer from low self-esteem. in order to compensate for this they attempt to project an air of self confidence. generally they fool almost no one but themselves. theya re always the last to know how others really see them. they have very strong defenses against anything that would allow them to acknowledge their own vulnerability.
and i used the word adolescent in the last post because this is a normal stage in adolescense that must be passed thru to grow into a healthy adult. but it is not normal in a full grown adult unless they never successfully completed that stage of development.


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## scott (Jan 12, 2002)

serpicolugnut: you hit it on the head (about Quebec). There is a minority of Quebecers who think a linguistic identity is enought to form a new country. Hello, look at what happened to Ireland fighting over petty shit (pardon).


Scott.
From Canada.

Notice the similarities? Most canucks love the US, but there is also striking paralells between Canada/USA and Mac/Windows. Canada/Mac: much smaller popularity, but has excellent features. Windows/USA: Also good features, but worldwide reliance and image of monopolistic bad boys.


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## serpicolugnut (Jan 12, 2002)

on the "geek war" reference...

95% of the time, when I find someone dissing the Mac, I will find through questioning them that they have NEVER even used one. Their arguments are (usually) based on old information, misconceptions and half truths.

Most Mac users who have a bias for their Macs have a least used a PC, or continue to use a PC when forced to. But when it comes down to putting their money where their mouth is, they buy Macs.

When 99% of PC users buy a PC, they never even consider the Mac, mostly because they have never seen what it can do, how elegant the interface is, etc. They just hear the stupid misconceptions from the pimple faced CompUSA employee who tells them there is no software for the Mac, that Apple is going out of business, etc, etc, etc. 

I have made it my goal to introduce the Mac to as many people as I can. I don't try to force it on them, because I don't have to. Once an intelligent person see's what can be done with the Mac, logic and reasoning kick in and they see that, for most tasks, the Mac is better. Notice I didn't say all tasks, as there are some areas where a low cost el cheapo PC makes sense. 

But in the last year, just from people at work (all PC's there) seeing me use my Titanium PowerBook G4, I have gotten three people to switch to the Mac. All of them are very happy to be off the Microsoft farm. I didn't have to hem and haw about why the Mac is better. I just showed them how I use it, and they "saw the light".

So do yourselves a favor. Don't break a sweat over the rantings of a 13 year old boy like maniacdvln. Just add him to your ignore list and go about your day. And when a PC user asks you about your computer, don't get defensive about it. Just show them why you use a Mac, and they will probably be able to make the argument themselves.


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## AdmiralAK (Jan 12, 2002)

The answer is simple, they dont like (hate) macs cause they are ignorant ( see manic as a good example)


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## Javintosh (Jan 12, 2002)

I often get snide remarks about the Macs that I have at work. I think it sometimes boild down to the fact that deep down inside Windows users are dissatisfied with their computing experience (especially given the virus frenzy of last year), but they settle for the safe mediocrity of the majority.

The fact that I do not choose to settle for safe mediocrity bother them and thta's the source of the snide remarks. or the "used to use system 6 but it is not as good as win 2k"-type remarks...


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## ZeroAltitude (Jan 12, 2002)

Hi all,

I cannot resist the temptation to say what I think of discussions regarding the pros and cons of Macs and PCs.  So first, some background.

I have been an intermediate to expert level user on many different computer platforms.  I started programming on a VIC4 (!), messed around with the cute Tandys in the early 80s, learned a bit of assembly for the Commodore-64s that I used for over 3 years, got my first PC and joined every BBS I could, used PC/Intel/Cyrix/AMD for over 8 years, starting with DOS5, then DOS6, Win3.1x, Win95, Win98, Win2k, WinXP, have been administering Linux on Intel and Alpha hardware platforms for over 6 years, and have recently got my first PowerBook Titanium Laptop G4/667 (my favorite laptop ever, after a Compaq and two Gateways), after having done light use of Macs ever since the Apple IIe (Wizardry! Yay!), and the Classics, and even the first PPCs.  I sincerely apologize for the resume, but I put it here for emphasis.  (I just realized I left out VMS and DEC Unix and Solaris, but now I truly digress.)

Every time I have seen a flame war regarding the relative usefulness of Macs vs. PCs, I have noted one real conclusion should always follow: that which platform you will find most useful, and like best, very simply depends on what you want and need a computer for.  Period.  End of story.

Now, *both* sides of the debate have ignorant people who say falsities on occasion, and *both* sides have some arrogant or just defensive people who react to these falsities or worse, the bashing, in better or worse ways.  And the fact that people on each side do not know the other side in as much detail is really no surprise: after all, most people just gain expertise in one platform, and only know the other one by a kind of anecdotal experience.  Most, not all.

So, I recommend to everyone that even better than trying to generalize about the characters, knowledge or experience of the proponents of one platform (because such generalizations seem to always cut both ways), that we try to be clear on ways in which each platform satisfies a *certain need* for a *certain kind of person*.  Not which side is 'better' or 'less arrogant' or... whatever.

For example: I know that there are first person shooters for the Mac.  But if your interest is in the widest variety of games, with the minimum of waiting for secondary versions, then it appears to me that the PC or a game console is where you would look for satisfaction.  If, however, you are a developer in say, Java, and want to create cross-platform Swing apps, then it seems to me that both the Mac and the PC are well-suited, depending on the specifics of the app you want to make.  Again, if your interest is in intensive multimedia design, then that is where the G4 shines in many applications, especially those enhanced to support the G4 extensions.  If you are interested in *professional* music production, and have money, then again arguably the best music production software is Mac based (and similar PC configurations are, at the very best, equal to the Mac on this score).  If you are interested in *amateur* music production and don't have money, then the PC is *arguably* better (much more freeware, like buzz (www.buzzmachines.com), audiomulch (www.audiomulch.com), crusher (www.crusher-x.de), and many trackers, and others -- audiomulch might not always be free, note).

The newest Macs now price quite competetively with PCs (do it yourself: go to Dell and price out similarly configured systems and compare with their comparable Mac versions) when you buy from the manufacturers.  So at that level, the oldest reason not to buy a Mac becomes less and less relevant.  However, PCs, since they do depreciate so fast, can be built from parts for much cheaper than a Mac.

The Mac, I would say, is still easier to configure out of the box, for home networking, for devices.

Etc.  Etc.  Etc.

Now, *these* kinds of observations, and factual debates about claims such as these, can actually *help* consumers decide what kind of machine to purchase.  And if I am really right, then the result would be, I reckon, that PC users and Mac users alike could learn from these observations and figure out what the *best machine for them* would be.  Net effect: the market share would be more equal, for I also reckon that people today would actually find themselves about equally divided, or perhaps skewed slightly one way or the other, as to what machines is *really best *for them**.  Ignorance and flame wars and relgion are not in the best computing interests of the masses (which is not to say that we shouldn't have cameraderie and community -- you don't need religion for that!).

Sorry for the long post.  Hope someone finds it interesting.

-ZeroAltitude


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## edX (Jan 12, 2002)

forget everything i have said before, another thread just made me realize the real answer - apple's commercials


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## sveijk (Jan 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by swizcore _
> *
> 
> I am American and I love Canadians!  They created an awesome sport and the innovators are still better than the Americans at it...  *



Curling?


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## buggs1a (Jan 14, 2002)

When was the last time you ever saw on TV or the web a huge security exploit alert or extremely harmful virus alert for a MAC?!
============================================

Never!!! lol.


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## zerorex (Jan 14, 2002)

Basicly, I have found that PC users fall in to one of three catigorys.  They either detest the idea of the mac, they think "ya its good for graphics, but thats it..." or the are open minded and would concider the mac if they could build it for 700 bucks.  

The first crew is no the most common, but they are very prevelant.  From my time in tech support I can say that this is mostly due to ignorance.  Alot of the people I know who hate the mac started hating it because the people who the work with have hated it longer than them.  In tech center training, the mac is usually an after thought.  "Ok class, we have spent 4 days figureing out how to trouble shoot connections for every Microsoft os out there, now here is a 30 second over view of how to deal with thoses OTHER PEOPLE who use the 'mac-n-crap' <class snikers>".  In technical circles mac hatred is almost tought.  Of coures our day comes when the mac users actually calls in... the mac hater almost always freeks out and starts screeming "wheres the mac guy wheres the mac guy".  I alwasy found it odd how few mac users even called in.  I know this is partly due to the fact that there are less of us, but it was also becuase we just dont have as many problems.  Most of this group hate the mac because a: they dont know anyting about it, and what they are forced to learn seems so alien, b: they concider the mac to be ment for "people who dont know how to use a computer", and c: their peers hate them.

The next group, the "its only good for graphics" guys are the ones I have found to be most common.  I dont know how manytimes ive hurd that statment.  Its usually followed by "but it cant do anything that requires reall power".  If you aregure this with proof of macs doing database work, macs doing web services, etc, you will get the "ya, but there are no applications for it".  You follow this with multiple choices of office applicaitons, web applications, audio applicaitons, graphic applicaitons, etc, and you get down to the real heart of the matter... "I cant play as many games on it".  This is the only argument you cant fully contend with.  Unfortunatly, almost every pc user will have at least one "game of the week" they love to play that is not on the mac.  But you can at least say that its not "only good for graphics"... its good for everything, there are just fewer games...

The last group, the open minded ones, are unfortunatly rare.  These people are usually fairly intellegent.  They build their pc's because they are tired of gettign stuck with winmodems and integrated pc crap that the next revison of the os will no longer fully support.  Also the see that building allows them to do things at a cheeper price.  They wont argue that a mac has its elegance and its features, but they will argue that its price point is out of their league.  They dont care that you dont need to upgrade very often... damit, they LIKE to upgrade ..  I have knotesed that with the advent of os x, i have more and more of this group shwoing more and more interest in apple.

anyway... thats my two cents


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## scott (Jan 14, 2002)

Couldn't agree more. I remember years ago trying to set people up with internet accounts on sys 7.x machines. I would call the ISP and ask for the DNS:

ISP: You don't our DNS #s
ME: Yes I do
ISP: No win95 doesn't need them
ME: I'm on a mac
ISP: Oh, I can't help you then. Why are you on a mac? Photoshop comes for pc ya know. We could sell you a copy.
ME: I don;t want your help. I want your DNS.
ISP: Ok, here ya go, but I still don;t think you need them.


Whatever.


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## edX (Jan 14, 2002)

> Of coures our day comes when the mac users actually calls in... the mac hater almost always freeks out and starts screeming "wheres the mac guy wheres the mac guy"



as the guy on the other end of the phone, this is inevitably the guy who answers my calls 90% of the time unless the company is cool enough to offer a touch tone option for mac support. but it seems like about 40% of the time the mac guy isn't there. i have had them offer me complete bs and lie about how their company is "working on it" or just plain blow me off cause they don't know. often they repeat themselves and hang up on me when it is evident i know more than they do. i have gotten to the point where if the person who answers my call isn't able to ask me questions that shows they know how a mac works, i ask for a supervisor, who usually is a mac guy or at least knows all about them and gets the problem solved most of the time. i am sure i have put black marks on several pc tech support people's evaluations. (at least i hope so)

yet another reason we should spend our money with those companies that support our platform faithfully and cast our economic votes against those who treat us as an afterthought.


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## karavite (Jan 14, 2002)

You know what, put aside usability, performance, applications... it's all secondary. What it really comes down to is taste and class. PCs are quite simply the bland white bread suburban computers made for the media sucking automatons that make up the majority of the United States. 

PC users hate us because the Mac only reinforces the cultural, artistic and intellectual void that divides us in so many other ways. PCs are to computers as:

Chrysler is to cars
Velveeta is to cheese
Disneyland is to a vacation
Andrew Lloyd Weber is to "Theater" 
Boones Farm is to wine
Budweiser is to beer
Best Buy is to customer service
Oakley is to fashionable eyewear
Michigan State is to education... (just kidding you Moo U types)

Hey, speaking of Canadians, I used to live in the only continental US city "North of Canada" (Detroit) and I had no issues with Canadians at all - they are great! Speaking of which, does anyone know if the Tunnel BBQ in Windsor is still around? And if it is, please tell me they still make fantastic ribs!


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## tagliatelle (Jan 14, 2002)

They are fans!


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## scott (Jan 14, 2002)

you got it


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