# CS3 Pricing petition?



## The7artist7 (Apr 10, 2007)

Hi Guys,

After being seriously excited about the new CS3 Softwares - But I have also been pretty aghast   at the pricing - I found this petition and hoped some of you guys may like to join in with it:

http://www.petitiononline.com/adobecs/petition.html

It was started by someone at this mac forum:

http://www.macworld.co.uk/forums/msgs.cfm?msg=89127&forum=1&SR=16

Hope this is ok - if there are any rules about petitions at Macosx.com I've missed or if it would be more effective at a different place in the site please let me know - Thanks! 

Greg


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## fryke (Apr 10, 2007)

I really despise these petitions. What ground is there for such a petition? Is there some "right" I don't know about that says you should be able to get something at half price or anything like it?

If you're a graphics pro, you'll get that dough back in a couple of days. You don't _have_ to update the very second the software comes out. If you're no graphics pro, I don't quite see the need for the software. There are open source alternatives for some basic things in CS3.

I mean: *I* don't like the pricing much either. It's not like I'd voluntarily give Adobe _more_ money for the software. But I'm also glad that Adobe actually makes good software.  ... I guess the picture would look different if, say, Photoshop had two or three _real_ competitors. That might bring prices down. Maybe the petition should actually ask for CS3 competition instead of lower pricing.


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## The7artist7 (Apr 10, 2007)

'I really despise these petitions. What ground is there for such a petition? Is there some "right" I don't know about that says you should be able to get something at half price or anything like it?'

...Did you read the petition?  It's simply asking for 'fair pricing' and is highlighting the crazy price difference between UK and US versions.


'If you're a graphics pro, you'll get that dough back in a couple of days. You don't _have_ to update the very second the software comes out. If you're no graphics pro, I don't quite see the need for the software. There are open source alternatives for some basic things in CS3.'

...Um, you're missing out the starting up or small businesses like myself  - I need industry-standard professional software to progress my business but find it difficult to justify the level of outlay

'I mean: *I* don't like the pricing much either. It's not like I'd voluntarily give Adobe _more_ money for the software. But I'm also glad that Adobe actually makes good software.  ... I guess the picture would look different if, say, Photoshop had two or three _real_ competitors. That might bring prices down. Maybe the petition should actually ask for CS3 competition instead of lower pricing. '

...Yeah - however much people complain - it is awesome stuff - and as such, adobe is very secure in people buying and using (and probably soon forgetting (until next time) the price issue!) I just think it's a real shame they leave such chance here in the UK for the sour aftertaste of feeling you've been done due to the price inconsistencies.  I'm not hating Adobe - just feel let down that's all


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## Lt Major Burns (Apr 11, 2007)

fryke said:


> I really despise these petitions. What ground is there for such a petition? Is there some "right" I don't know about that says you should be able to get something at half price or anything like it?
> 
> If you're a graphics pro, you'll get that dough back in a couple of days. You don't _have_ to update the very second the software comes out. If you're no graphics pro, I don't quite see the need for the software. There are open source alternatives for some basic things in CS3.
> 
> I mean: *I* don't like the pricing much either. It's not like I'd voluntarily give Adobe _more_ money for the software. But I'm also glad that Adobe actually makes good software.  ... I guess the picture would look different if, say, Photoshop had two or three _real_ competitors. That might bring prices down. Maybe the petition should actually ask for CS3 competition instead of lower pricing.



I have to disagree here.  just because it's possible to earn that money back again doesn't make it right for adobe to charge double in different territories, especially when there are no real overheads needed.

also, that a company has a monopoly grip on a market is not good thing, and is a business responsibility to act responsibly when you are in that situation.  Antitrust laws in the US are set up to curb behavior like this.


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## Thank The Cheese (Apr 11, 2007)

Unfortunately these petitions rarely, if ever, make an impact. 

Fryke and major burns are right, though, the real issue here is monopoly. When Adobe bought Macromedia they rid the world of the only serious competition to the Creative Suite. I'm prefer to sign a petition to encourage Apple or another company to release their own creative suite killer. 

I certainly don't agree that a creative professional can pay off the CS3 expense quickly. There are a lot of small design suites and freelance designers for whom this would be a large chunk of their profit. I can include myself in this. The majority of my income comes from teaching, but I do design work quarter-to-part-time.

No you don't HAVE to buy CS3, but try telling that to anyone with an Intel mac, or the view to buy one.


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## The7artist7 (Apr 11, 2007)

I agree ThankTheCheese, petitions can be a waste of time - but surely some impact is better than none? If nothing else it's bringing up subjects like this that get people talking, and hopefully doing, something about it.  Down with monopolies (despite being a good board game!) 

Yeah, I would have been perfectly happy with my recent purchase of CS2.3 on a PowerPC mac but due to an important commission requiring a software upgrade which in turn required a new Mac (which just has to be intel as it would be stupid not to on a limited budget when the whole mac thing is swinging that way) which meant I had to purchase the CS2.3 to keep workflow going...  I'm guessing it isn't a unique story of the knock-on effect of the intel fiasco.

I will be purchasing CS3 but thankful it's only an upgrade I'll have to pay for!

Web premium looks the best deal to me as I don't use In-Design anyway.


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## salival (Apr 11, 2007)

Lt Major Burns said:


> also, that a company has a monopoly grip on a market is not good thing



Maybe, but that is not the problem of the company that holds the monopoly. And if you think about it, the goal of every company is to hold a monopoly on the market it focuses on, otherwise why would it bother to make and sell products in the first place?

In the case of Adobe, I am more than happy it now enjoys a monopoly. Their products are the best of their kind. I would be more than happy if there were an Apple monopoly too.



> Antitrust laws in the US are set up to curb behavior like this.



Antirust laws are just there to bother successful companies and to cather to the demands of those who cannot compete on their own. Neither Adobe, Apple nor Microsoft have political power to force people to buy their products, so there is simply no reason for the goverment to be meddling with the market by trying to dictate how companies make and sell their products.


sal


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## Lt Major Burns (Apr 11, 2007)

salival said:


> Maybe, but that is not the problem of the company that holds the monopoly. And if you think about it, the goal of every company is to hold a monopoly on the market it focuses on, otherwise why would it bother to make and sell products in the first place?
> 
> In the case of Adobe, I am more than happy it now enjoys a monopoly. Their products are the best of their kind. I would be more than happy if there were an Apple monopoly too.
> 
> ...



it may not be the companys fault, but it's undeniable that they should act responsibly if they get to that status.  monopolies are only good for the shareholders on the inside, and they represent a very small portion of the people affected by a monopoly.  the real danger is price fixing and creative stagnation, the first of which we are seeing here.  without real competition dictating market value, adobe are able to name their price, and who's going to stop them?  they know full well that they control the creative industry almost 100% now.  there's only really Apple and Quark on the fringes of their territories that can really offer anything of an alternative, and even then, nothing can do what Photoshop and Illustrator do.  there simply aren't any other viable pieces of software anymore for the professional, so it's not as if people can protest by buying in with the competitor...


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## fryke (Apr 11, 2007)

To say that antitrust laws are only there to bother successful companies is, imho, rather short-sighted. If you're pro-capitalism, you should get that capitalism only works as long as there's competition. If Adobe is in a monopolistic position - and it is for several of its products! - that _isn't_ good for the market or the customers. Adobe dictates when upgrades are issued - and at what pricing. As I've said: I'm not overly happy with their current pricing.

Freelancers and small offices can't make that money fast? Well: Then make it slowly. However small your office is and even when you're a freelancer, there's some investment that you have to account for. If you can't make the investment now, make it later. Without CS 3, you didn't have to upgrade to an intel Mac, so you're still on a PowerPC Mac. One reason less to upgrade to CS 3.


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## salival (Apr 11, 2007)

Lt Major Burns said:


> it may not be the companys fault, but it's undeniable that they should act responsibly if they get to that status.



What do you mean by "act responsibly"?



> the real danger is price fixing and creative stagnation, the first of which we are seeing here.



When you really look into it, the prices are not really that high, you are talking about a suite of profesional applications here. Comparing single products, both the full and upgrade version of InDesign CS3 are $50 cheaper than the full and upgrade versions of QuarkXpress 7.

Previous owners of Studio MX/2004/8 *or* CS/CS2 can upgrade to CS3 Design premium for a mere $600 or to CS3 Web Premium for $500. That is a very good deal, both upgrades cost less than upgrading other prefesional product suites such as Final Cut Pro Studio, which is $700.

As far as creative stagnation goes, I sure hope Adobe does not becomes a sleeping giant, this current release shows that their are in good track and are still driven by innovation, integration and creativity. Let's hope it stays that way.



> without real competition dictating market value, adobe are able to name their price, and who's going to stop them?



And why should they be stopped? It is their product, they expend their time and resources developing it, they are free to put the price they want to it.



> they know full well that they control the creative industry almost 100% now.



Well, they earned their position thru hard work and beat their competitors by making better products and implementing good strategies.

If Adobe is not careful competitors can start driving customers away from it's products by making better products. This is what is happening to Microsoft and is what happened(and is still happening) to Quark.



> there's only really Apple and Quark on the fringes of their territories that can really offer anything of an alternative, and even then, nothing can do what Photoshop and Illustrator do.  there simply aren't any other viable pieces of software anymore for the professional, so it's not as if people can protest by buying in with the competitor...



There is also Corel, which has Corel DRAW, Painter, Paint Shop Pro and Photo Paint, there is open source software like the GIMP and im sure there are others. There are alternatives, that they are bad is a separate thing and one that is not Adobe's problem. 


sal


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## Qion (Apr 11, 2007)

The petition is neither brash nor derogatory, and I believe that what it states is true. There is no reason Adobe's apps (any of them) should be substantially more expensive in one country than in another. Design Premium is expensive enough here in the US; I can't imagine throwing another $1,000 down just because. 

As far as small businesses and freelance artists (such as myself) go, these applications are critical to us and we don't necessarily make back that much money in a "couple days". Most of us have second jobs, and while our business demands the use of professional applications, it's not fair to ask that much money. We *do* like to upgrade our hardware every once in a while, Fryke.


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## The7artist7 (Apr 11, 2007)

Hi guys - I just want to clarify what the issue with Adobe's pricing was for me in the first place as things seem to be getting slightly the wrong angle here:

Quite simply - It doesn't seem at all fair that one country is favored over another with pricing - why should we in the UK pay a lot more than the US for exactly the same product?

In my opinion, if Adobe want to charge over the actual value for their quality products that's their business.  (I'm not saying it's what I want them to do or good - just up to them) Just do it to everyone if you're going to do it.

Fryke - I agree that just because a small business can't make money fast is no reason to hit out at companies for pricing their product above 'cheap and easy to buy'
However, in my situation, I did have to upgrade to an intel Mac which has been frustrating with the Adobe software side of things.  High pricing simply makes these changes even harder - if that high pricing then appears to also be unfair, it highlights the injustice of things like the unbalanced software prices.

As for waiting to invest in upgrades because you have little money coming in - that's all well and good until you get a situation like mine where an important commission arrives and to fulfill it you must upgrade a piece of software - that software requires a more powerful machine - due to the uncertain long-term situation of your income your upgraded machine must be a long term investment - hence the intel mac - hence the updating of Adobe software - hence the frustration when it appears Adobe is charging me more than someone else just because I live in the UK.

I'm no stranger to making the most of what I have - my Trusty G4 PowerPC 400mhz was bought when I started back in 1999 along with Illustrator 8.6 and wasn't changed until a few months ago.  I never had the money to purchase photoshop proper so had to make do with a printer bundled version of photoshop elements.  And to be honest, I was quite happy with what I had and just got on with the job.  Anyway enough of a novel - sorry to ramble on


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## salival (Apr 11, 2007)

fryke said:


> To say that antitrust laws are only there to bother successful companies is, imho, rather short-sighted.



Well, what else are they for? 



> If Adobe is in a monopolistic position - and it is for several of its products! - that _isn't_ good for the market or the customers.



But why is this Adobe's problem? Should we now attack Adobe for becoming a monopoly by making better products and implementing better strategies than it's rivals? Adobe is not forcing anyone at gunpoint to buy it's products. as far as I know.


sal


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## salival (Apr 11, 2007)

The7artist7 said:


> Quite simply - It doesn't seem at all fair that one country is favored over another with pricing - why should we in the UK pay a lot more than the US for exactly the same product?



No clue and it does seems wrong.

Can't you buy the product in the US and then have it ship to your home?


sal


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## The7artist7 (Apr 11, 2007)

Qion, spot on 

Salival, I'd be more than happy to spend $600 US (£306 GBP) on the upgrade to design premium - it's spending $1,073 US (£546 GBP) just because I live in the UK that I have a problem with!


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## The7artist7 (Apr 11, 2007)

salival said:


> No clue and it does seems wrong.
> 
> Can't you buy the product in the US and then have it ship to your home?
> 
> ...



Not researched that yet - anybody know for sure if this is ok to do?  If it was easy to get it cheaper that way - I would have thought Adobe wouldn't bother having the difference in pricing - surely everyone would simply buy it from the US??


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## fryke (Apr 12, 2007)

(A completely different question. What did CS 2 Premium upgrade cost in the UK, before CS 3 was announced?)

salival: I never said it was Adobe's problem. I was talking about antitrust laws and free market there.

About buying in the US: Would certainly be legal. No can do for customers who need the apps in languages other than English, though.


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## The7artist7 (Apr 12, 2007)

fryke said:


> (A completely different question. What did CS 2 Premium upgrade cost in the UK, before CS 3 was announced?)



I bought a early unregistered version of photoshop and upgraded to CS2.3 prem. from that, it cost me £590 GBP ($1,159 US) and that was the cheapest deal I could find! but can't remember what it would cost from CS 1 prem. at the time - Anyone??

If it's ok to upgrade from a UK purchased software to a US upgrade that could save a lot of people a bundle of money!  I'm off to do some research on customs and tax on buying from US in the UK...


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## ergo proxy (Apr 20, 2007)

Software is very expensive where I live. Because of this, I upgrade or
buy a new version only when I have to. 

I was on Photoshop 7 until late last year when I got a used copy of CS2 
for a good price and I'm still on Maya 6. I don't really need all 
the latest features or tools but I do run into problems once in a while 
opening files from newer versions. Of course I wish I had the latest 
and greatest but most of the time, I'm happy with what I have.

The same thing with OS X, I don't have the latest and won't get 
a new version until I buy new hardware (not anytime soon). If it's not 
broken, I'd like to leave it as is. I guess software companies don't
like people like me


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## The7artist7 (Apr 20, 2007)

Good stuff, Ergo Proxy!  Well done for not getting caught up in the 'must update to the latest because they say so' mentality. That's all I'm aiming for with my recent essential upgrading - reliable, stable usage... I should be there soon


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