# Censoring on MacOSX.com



## simX (Jun 3, 2002)

I sent a message to Admin, but apparently he's really busy or something, because I haven't gotten a reply.

Nevertheless, I would like to voice my disappointment, and alert other members of this.

It seems that the word "s" "u" "c" "k" and the word "p" "i" "s" "s" are being censored here on the board.

I do not approve of this.  The word "s" "u" "c" "k" is a legitimate English word, as in the vaccuum ***** up the dirt from the floor.  This word should not be censored at all.  Furthermore, the potentially "offensive" connotation (i.e.: "This *****!") is not offensive in the least.  It is a common usage and I don't see any way that someone can become offended because of this word.  As an example, see my signature.  It doesn't make sense when the word is censored, but it is not offensive in the least.

The second word, "p" "i" "s" "s", is a word that can be used idiomatically, and is not offensive.  For example, one can say, "That guy ****es me off!".  This is not an offensive statement  in this instance, "****es me off" is synonymous to "angers me".  Again, there's the potentially "offensive" usage, synonymous to "urinate".  However, this is not an offensive usage in the least, because it is also a commonly used synonym to "urinate", and therefore should not be censored.

I would appreciate immediate action by any administrator to uncensor these words.  This is not right, and while I admit that it is not a very bad problem, I still do not think that these two words should be censored.  I can think of 100000x more offensive words than "s" "u" "c" "k" and "p" "i" "s" "s" (for example, take the word "s" "u" "c" "k", and then change the "s" to an "f").  THOSE are the words that should be censored, and I do not object to their censoring someone might be offended by them.  But "s" "u" "c" "k" and "p" "i" "s" "s" are not offensive, and should be taken off the list of censored words.

Thank you.


----------



## dlookus (Jun 3, 2002)

Dude, you're right that *****.


----------



## mrfluffy (Jun 3, 2002)

that pisses me off


----------



## ScottW (Jun 3, 2002)

Life ***** doesn't it. Improve your vocabulary and you should be fine.

Admin


----------



## dricci (Jun 3, 2002)

yeah, not sure why **** and **** were chosen to be censored.


----------



## simX (Jun 3, 2002)

Admin  like I said, "s" "u" "c" "k" has a legitimate English usage, which is why it should not be censored.  I do not need to improve my vocabulary to know that this word is a non-offensive word.


----------



## nkuvu (Jun 3, 2002)

I kind of enjoy writing posts that won't be censored.  For example, use different words

Man, that blarfs.

The day Microsoft makes a product that doesn't _foo_ is the day they start making vacuum cleaners.



I know, I'm easily amused.


----------



## dlookus (Jun 3, 2002)

I also don't understand why these words have been sensored. Seems like it's taking it a bit far.


----------



## simX (Jun 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nkuvu _
> *I kind of enjoy writing posts that won't be censored.  For example, use different words
> 
> Man, that blarfs.
> ...



The point of my signature is to make a pun to show that the only time that Microsoft doesn't make a crappy product is when they contradict the statement in another way.  As you can see, it doesn't make any sense explaining it in any other way than stating it, and because the word is censored, it basically makes the statement worthless.

Admin, I like MacOSX.com.  But I don't want there to be a dictator around here.  If you force me to change my vocabulary when there is no need to because of some weird reason, I'm afraid that I don't want to be a member of this community anymore.


----------



## dlookus (Jun 3, 2002)

I understand that manually checking every post is far to big of a task for the moderators, but I think having certain words being censored is fine (F***, SH**, A**H*** etc.)

However, I also feel that most of the people who use this site are responsible, and when the occasional person does get a bit rude we tend to call them on it. 

People can be offensive without using these words, and people who use these words are not necessarily being offensive. I think we can ease off a bit with the censoring.


----------



## BlingBling 3k12 (Jun 3, 2002)

Okay, if you can say those two words on TV, why can't you say them online? You can even say $h!t on TV now! It has become "acceptable" on many networks.

Acceptable words on TV:

Ass
Damn
Hell
S H I T
P E N I S
Vagina
P I S S

AND LOTS MORE! That's just on USA TV! In other countries (example: Mexico) you can say ANYTHING! They even show nudity on Prime Time!

This blatently screws the First Amendment of the Constitution of the USA!


----------



## BlingBling 3k12 (Jun 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Admin _
> *Life ***** doesn't it. Improve your vocabulary and you should be fine.
> 
> Admin *



You used it... you felt like you needed to use it... you pretty much got yourself censored by yourself...

I also love this site just as much as simX and many of the THOUSANDS of members... doing this is WRONG!


----------



## BlingBling 3k12 (Jun 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nkuvu _
> *Man, that blarfs.
> 
> The day Microsoft makes a product that doesn't foo is the day they start making vacuum cleaners.*



i also found that quite amusing...


----------



## chemistry_geek (Jun 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by BlingBling 3k12 _
> *Okay, if you can say those two words on TV, why can't you say them online? You can even say $h!t on TV now! It has become "acceptable" on many networks.
> 
> Acceptable words on TV:
> ...



This does not go against the first amendment.  You are submitting ideas for publication on an electronic medium that YOU DO NOT OWN.  The Admin owns this medium, and he can choose whatever language he thinks is appropriate.  Your rights are not diminished in any way.  You submitted your ideas as you thought were reasonable (you exercised your 1st amendment right), but the editor (the Admin) chose not to publish *ALL* of your ideas on his media.  See?  Simple, isn't it?  If you want to use those words and share them with as many people as you'd like, enter a porno chat room or something (if they exist), or put up a large sign in your front yard with all those words on it.  See how well your neighbors treat you afterwards.


----------



## nkuvu (Jun 3, 2002)

My feelings in a nutshell (composed while chemistry_geek had already posted, not necessarily a blind "ditto"  ):

This isn't America.  You have no rights to free speech.  This is a website, specifically Admin's website.  It's a community of users who have agreed to follow Admin's rules.  Therefore if Admin decides that the p & s words are worthy of censor, I'll agree.  I've already agreed to abide by his decisions by clicking on agree on that original disclaimer when I signed up.

That said, I'm not going to just sit and watch things fall apart -- I'll talk to Admin about any decisions I feel to be poor ones.  Maybe I'll change his mind, maybe not.  Maybe it'll be something I think is worth leaving MOSX about.  In this particular case, I don't feel that the issue is that important.  I'm not saying you're wrong, simX.  I'm just saying I don't agree on the severity of this issue.

I for one would hate to see you go -- you're a valuable member of MOSX.  But of course it's your decision...


----------



## cybergoober (Jun 3, 2002)

How is **** offensive? Context, people. So apparently we can't talk about the third window minimization effect, Suck, now can we? I could see if someone was talking about fellatio. But a minimization effect, or a vacuum cleaner? Puh-lease.

What's next? Can't use anything the even eludes to swears? 
LOFL
LOMFL
RTFM
ROTFLMAO


----------



## macguy17 (Jun 3, 2002)

You forgot WTF. Whenever someone reads that, they are saying those words out loud to themselves.


----------



## BlingBling 3k12 (Jun 3, 2002)

okay... whatever... i just don't feel that I should be censored...


----------



## nkuvu (Jun 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by macguy17 _
> *You forgot WTF. Whenever someone reads that, they are saying those words out loud to themselves. *


What the foo?


----------



## .dev.lqd (Jun 3, 2002)

bottom line... private community, ***** if you want but in the long run is it worth the time?

Ask yourself... a year from now... what quantative difference will my being able to post **** on macosx.com make?

I'm not taking sides, I too think it's silly, but I don't think it's worth the effort to change or argue about.


----------



## sithious (Jun 3, 2002)

censorship s u c k s big time.
i agree wholeheartedly with simx, this is taking things way, way, way too far. in fact, it's pretty ridiculous.
god, am i glad i don't live in the us... over here we actually are allowed to say what we want, when we want, where we want without people getting uptight about it ... weird that grown-ups should be so touchy about mere words.


----------



## Matrix Agent (Jun 3, 2002)

My I point out that only a few months ago the whole forum was up in arms about how to deal with swearing/the cuss thread. Now there's censorship. Ultimately you're going to have one or the other, and I think we can all think of some good uses for most swear words. We need to decide whether adding swear words adds enough to the dialogue to make up for the fact the some users just wont like it and will object. I guess I really have no direction for this post, I just feel like the admin is getting a bad rap here for listening to our demands in the first place.


----------



## sithious (Jun 3, 2002)

may i point out that i for one couldn't care less about whether people swear or not ... 
honestly i would prefer threads full of profanity to censorship, but then, as i think of most people on this forum as pretty mature, no matter what their age, i doubt there would be much profanity even it was allowed... 
the point is that it goes against all principles of democracy to censor what people are saying, no matter whether some other people may be offended or not. who is the arbiter of what is/isn't offensive? 
is the word "saugen" less offensive than s u c k, merely because it is a different language? 
is it offensive to s u c k on a sweet merely because some people's minds are warped enough to make them think s u c k means only one thing, namely fellatio? 
remember: profanity is in the eye of the beholder...
words have many meanings, and if you can't deal with one of the meanings may i say that is your problem, not mine ...
(and i don't necessarily mean you, matrix agent, just anyone who finds various words offensive ... )


**** \****\, v. i.
   1. To draw, or attempt to draw, something by suction, as with
      the mouth, or through a tube.

            Where the bee *****, there **** I.    --Shak.

   2. To draw milk from the breast or udder; as, a child, or the
      young of an animal, is first nourished by sucking.

   3. To draw in; to imbibe; to partake.


**** \****\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. Sucked; p. pr. & vb. n.
   Sucking.] [OE. suken, souken, AS. s?can, s?gan; akin to D.
   zuigen, G. saugen, OHG. s?gan, Icel. s?ga, sj?ga, Sw. suga,
   Dan. suge, L. sugere. Cf. Honeysuckle, Soak, Succulent,
   Suction.]
   1. To draw, as a liquid, by the action of the mouth and
      tongue, which tends to produce a vacuum, and causes the
      liquid to rush in by atmospheric pressure; to draw, or
      apply force to, by exhausting the air.

   2. To draw liquid from by the action of the mouth; as, to
      **** an orange; specifically, to draw milk from (the
      mother, the breast, etc.) with the mouth; as, the young of
      an animal ***** the mother, or dam; an infant ***** the
      breast.

   3. To draw in, or imbibe, by any process resembles sucking;
      to inhale; to absorb; as, to **** in air; the roots of
      plants **** water from the ground.

   4. To draw or drain.

            Old ocean, sucked through the porous globe.
                                                  --Thomson.

   5. To draw in, as a whirlpool; to swallow up.

            As waters are by whirlpools sucked and drawn.
                                                  --Dryden.

   To **** in, to draw into the mouth; to imbibe; to absorb.


   To **** out, to draw out with the mouth; to empty by
      suction.

   To **** up, to draw into the mouth; to draw up by suction
      or absorption.


**** \****\, n.
   1. The act of drawing with the mouth.

   2. That which is drawn into the mouth by sucking;
      specifically, mikl drawn from the breast. --Shak.

   3. A small draught. [Colloq.] --Massinger.

   4. Juice; succulence. [Obs.]


****
     n : the act of sucking [syn: sucking, suction]
     v 1: draw into the mouth by creating a practical vacuum in the
          mouth; "**** the poison from the place where the snake
          bit"; "**** on a straw"; "the baby sucked on the
          mother's breast"
     2: draw something in by or as if by a vacuum; "Mud was sucking
        at her feet"
     3: attract by using an inexorable force, inducement, etc.; "The
        current sucked him in" [syn: **** in]
     4: take in, also metaphorically; "The sponge absorbs water
        well"; "She drew strength from the minister's words" [syn:
         absorb, imbibe, soak up, sop up, **** up, draw,
         take in, take up]
     5: give **** to; "The wetnurse suckled the infant"; "You cannot
        nurse your baby in public in some places" [syn: breastfeed,
         suckle, nurse, wet-nurse, lactate, give ****]
        [ant: bottlefeed]


----------



## xoot (Jun 3, 2002)

Censoring is stupid. It limits your freedom.

I mean, when I say ****, does it bother anyone?


----------



## nkuvu (Jun 3, 2002)

> _xoot asked:_
> *I mean, when I say ****, does it bother anyone?*


Nope.  I'm perfectly comfortable with stars.  

Again I feel I have to point out that this is not a "freedom" issue.  It's Admin's choice.


----------



## dricci (Jun 3, 2002)

Yeah, is this a community of mature (mostly) Mac users, or is this sixth grade recess? Are we going to snicker whenever someone says "****" or "sex" and then have to stand in the corner, or are we going to act grown up about it and ignore words that offend us?

If "touchy" words are banned, then I think the next step should be the bar and grill going, and any off topic discussion banished. Then we can all shave our heads and go to the auditorium and listen to the morning's briainwash speech.


----------



## simX (Jun 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nkuvu _
> *
> Nope.  I'm perfectly comfortable with stars.
> 
> Again I feel I have to point out that this is not a "freedom" issue.  It's Admin's choice. *



I know this is Admin's choice.  But that doesn't make it right.

The word "s" "u" "c" "k" is not an offensive word in the least, and that's why it should not be censored.

Think about it this way.  What if "tree" somehow became a synonym for the word "excrement", but was meant in an offensive meaning.  But then the word lost its offensive meaning because of its wide usage.  Should the word "tree" still become censored because of the past usage of the word, even though everyone does not become offended by it now?  Why should I be forced to use "very large plant" just because "tree" used to be an offensive word at some point?

The same is true for the word "s" "u" "c" "k" "s".  IT HAS A LEGITIMATE USAGE IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE (as sithious pointed out), and although it may have been "offensive" at one point, it is not in the least offensive now.  So it should not be censored 1) because it has a legitimate use and 2) because it is not offensive.

While it is not that big of a problem, it still is the suspension of a commonly used word, and I feel that I should be able to use that word here on the forums.

PLEASE NOTE that I am not saying that ALL words should NOT be censored.  I agree that SOME words should be censored.  But not the word "s" "u" "c" "k" and not the word "p" "i" "s" "s".  These are not offensive words, and I have no idea why Admin chose to censor them and why he continues to when the point has been brought up.  I take issue with the fact that he feels the need to make me change my vocabulary when it is a perfectly good word.

I do not want to leave MacOSX.com, but I do not feel that I want to be a member if ridiculous rules like this are imposed on me.  Like dricci said, we are all mature users here and I think we can use these two words responsibly (if there's even a way to use them irresponsibly).

To further illustrate how ridiculous this is, I don't see anyone up in arms about me evading the censorship.  I still have not seen one person responding in this thread that has been offended by seeing these two words that are being censored.  EVEN ADMIN DID NOT MAKE A STINK ABOUT IT.  So if we can all use it, why should the censorship be imposed?


----------



## xoot (Jun 3, 2002)

Why did Admin start this?


----------



## sithious (Jun 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by xoot _
> *Why did Admin start this?  *



god only knows, and he's not telling.


----------



## xoot (Jun 3, 2002)

Use the force, sithious...

Read Admin's mind...

- Yoda


----------



## edX (Jun 3, 2002)

I think this came about shortly after some idiot made his 1st post by repeating ***** (p e n i s in case that got censored) about a hundred times and then screaming that he should never have been allowed to do it, that it should have been censored. There was also enough leakage i guess from the few folks who participated in the cus thread (or so admin claims, i never saw it) that he closed it at the same time.

i'm still trying to bite my tongue on this for now as i have some awfully strong feelings about censorship and the whole concept makes me want to use a whold bunch of those censored words. I have expressed these views somewhat tactifully in the past and the short of it that i think that censorship is far more dangerous than any of the words that get censored. Flat out - admin is very wrong on this one.

that being said, it is his site and he can be as wrong as he wants to be. the question of whether we all want to find a new place to hang out is up to us, and i'll admit i am torn. i have had a few thoughts about doing so because the vast overrunning of posts by gibberrish spouting kiddies lately. The intelligencelevel of general conversation seems to have dropped about 20 IQ points in the last month.  and i was also tempted to when the censorship went into place, just like my friend Simone who has never been one to use abusive language in my memory. 

but frankly, admin has never been that much of this site. and until his recent slanders of democrats i had the utmost respect for him. In light of those cheap shots, this censorship action just looks like more right wing control of freedoms to me, the same kind of mentality that fueled the inquisition and book burnings - deciding what is too dangerous for others and taking on the patriarchical role of protecting them from themselves (a very republican kind of thing to do i have noticed).  However, it is the people here that have always made this site a place i want to be. there are many i would hate to lose touch with. there are many people that i enjoy 'listening' to what they have to say.

As for this not being the US, you are wrong on that one nkuvu. The server and owner of it reside in the US, and therefore this site is subject to US law, to state law and to admin's local law. It is also protected by the bill of rights. However, admin has the option to set rules as he sees (within the law) as this is privately owned and not a public corporation.

I would simply beg of you admin, to let this board go back to taking care of itself. It worked wonderfully for a long time. and punishing the abusers with suspensions as you have done in the past makes more sense than starting down the road to lack of personal freedoms and lack of  responsibility. 

i would like to see Simone stay regardless of the outcome. I am sure i will unless this thread gets closed, in which case i will likely begin packing my browsers and either going back to my real life or finding a new forum as well.  for it is one thing to censor objectionable words, and entirely another to censor intelligent discussions about censorship.


----------



## AdmiralAK (Jun 3, 2002)

Time for the admiral to weigh in 

ok here is how it stands and how *I* understand the whole matter

1) I dont like sensorship---- HOWEVER....
you have to consider several issues and facts:

a) The admin, for two years was REALLY linient on how the forums were run, threads were locked  once in three blue moons, and there was no way of getting banned. -- This was cool and it allowed our community to thrive.

b) Sometime ago several people came, this was the wave of "hoolingan" immature types of kids that wanted to just come on here and jerk off and BS the boards.  I wont name names, everyone knows who I am talking about.

c) These individuals, and a few others, *perverted* the cuss thread which was started in the first days of macosx.com, and created a monster out of something that was supposed to be lighthearted and humorous, to add insult to injury they used that thread as a means of postcount boosting.

d) Some of these individuals were reprimanded but brought back.

e) The language from teh cuss thread, no matter how playful and friends among the members, spilled over into other areas of the forum, and we all witnessed it, and this not only brings down the integrity of the boards, it also brings down OUR integrity as posters who post on this board, its not JUST the admin's reputation here, but ours as well.

f) Finally, these boards are not public, us posters, cannot set policy, the only person that can set policy is teh guy who pays the bills, and that is the admin.  If you dont like the sensorship you dont have to stay.  However, its not like he is sensoring words like democracy, free trade, and whatever, he is sensoring swear words.  Our vocabulary is WAY bigger than S U C K,  F U C K, and other such colorful words.

---------- further edits -----------
After reading Ed's comments I needed to reply.  The admin did take cheap shots at democrats, I am not a democrat, nor a republican. however I am more conservative than liberal.  I did not think that cheapshots were called for, however you cant judge someone *just* on that.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion.


secondly when people cry ** sensor sensor** after a man utters  p e n i  s    in his first post... what is there to do? Now that you have it you dont like it?

These boards have no clear cut rules, which other boards that I frequent have.  If we had rules, we would have no need to sensor, however we could kick off members which repeatedly broke them, or broke them in their first x amount of posts.  We need a few more mods on here perhaps to supervise the boards while the admin or the mods are away.

-----------------------------------------

just my 2 cents

Admiral


----------



## nkuvu (Jun 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by simX _
> *PLEASE NOTE that I am not saying that ALL words should NOT be censored.  I agree that SOME words should be censored.  But not the word "s" "u" "c" "k" and not the word "p" "i" "s" "s".  These are not offensive words, and I have no idea why Admin chose to censor them and why he continues to when the point has been brought up.  I take issue with the fact that he feels the need to make me change my vocabulary when it is a perfectly good word.*


I misunderstood you, simX -- I thought you wanted all censoring off.  Which I don't think is appropriate given that this is a public forum available to anyone.  It doesn't really matter how mature our members are in general.  There are some people who are not mature who could be looking at this site, and f**k (you know, frak  ) is not appropriate according to the rules not only of Admin but also of American society. And unfortunately this is an American forum and therefore has to conform to American rules.

I think that websites in general fall into a grey area as far as rights and responsibilities go.  As I mentioned, this is an American forum (yes, I agree with that, Ed) but it is also in some respects personal property.  I am not sure of legality here (IANAL) but I am under the impression that the visitors to this site do not automagically get the full rights of an American citizen.  But at the same time Admin has to follow American regulations and is responsible if something goes amiss.

I love to be a paradox.  I am all for free speech and being able to say whatever you want.  But I also am all for appropriate time and place.  I see the censorship issue _in this case_ as less of "protecting them from themselves" and more of "protecting my own behind".  And having said all that, I do think that the two words in question should be removed from the censored list, but the overall censure of foul language should continue.  I don't feel the need to use those words myself, which is perhaps why I don't think this is a huge issue, but neither do I believe that anyone would get in trouble for having those words censored.


----------



## simX (Jun 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by simX _
> *To further illustrate how ridiculous this is, I don't see anyone up in arms about me evading the censorship.  I still have not seen one person responding in this thread that has been offended by seeing these two words that are being censored.  EVEN ADMIN DID NOT MAKE A STINK ABOUT IT.  So if we can all use it, why should the censorship be imposed? *



This reason that I stated before but nobody addressed ALONE makes it ridiculous to censor the words "s" "u" "c" "k" and "p" "i" "s" "s".



> _Originally posted by AdmiralAK_
> *f) Finally, these boards are not public, us posters, cannot set policy, the only person that can set policy is teh guy who pays the bills, and that is the admin. If you dont like the sensorship you dont have to stay. However, its not like he is sensoring words like democracy, free trade, and whatever, he is sensoring swear words. Our vocabulary is WAY bigger than S U C K, F U C K, and other such colorful words.*



Did you not read what I said?

The word "s" "u" "c" "k" HAS A LEGITIMATE USAGE IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE.  I do not need to change my vocabulary to something "WAY bigger" just because admin thinks a legitimate English word should not be used.  Would you like the word defined for you again, just so you can be assured of its usage?

To illustrate my point, from here on, AdmiralAK, I decree that you can not use the word "need".  Because you have such a "WAY bigger" vocabulary, surely you can evade this ridiculous censorship I have imposed upon you.


----------



## dlookus (Jun 3, 2002)

OK OK
What is all this talk about leaving. I think you're blowing this way out of proportion. Yes it ***** that that gets censored, but I won't lose sleep over it.

For the most part, I agree with Ed about policing the site ourselves (I aluded to that earlier.) This, however, I think is totally out of line:

*but frankly, admin has never been that much of this site. and until his recent slanders of democrats i had the utmost respect for him. In light of those cheap shots, this censorship action just looks like more right wing control of freedoms to me, the same kind of mentality that fueled the inquisition and book burnings - deciding what is too dangerous for others and taking on the patriarchical role of protecting them from themselves (a very republican kind of thing to do i have noticed). However, it is the people here that have always made this site a place i want to be. there are many i would hate to lose touch with. there are many people that i enjoy 'listening' to what they have to say. *

This is not a war. Don't make it one.


----------



## edX (Jun 3, 2002)

my friend dlookus, perhaps you would care to explain to me what was out of line about the part of my post you quoted. was it criticizing admin? was it pointing out that censorship is a parental type action that implies the censorer knows more about what is right and wrong, good and bad than the censoree? was it acknowledging that the people here at this site, like the ones engaging in this discussion are the primary reason for being here? I would really like to know what you find so appalling about my statements.

I would also respond to your comment about this not being a war - well in some ways it is to me, one i have been fighting since an early age.  The war for freedom, for personal control, for personal responsibility, to be able to have access to whatever materials i so desire, regardless of someone else's opinion of them. There have been countless words of wisdom lost thru time because someone else decided to censor them - by burning them, by killing those who wrote them or even spoke them. there are scant fragments of the religious teachings of my faith left because of these kinds of act.

now i know you will say i am overreactting and perhaps i am, but censorship is one of those things starts small and grows. One person censors a few words, another sees it as justification to censor a few more and the cycle goes on til we have people burning Harry Potter books and worse. people stood idlely by and thought it was nothing to get concerned about when the nazi party rose to power.  Eventually they realized it was something they should have reacted to when it started, not after it was too late. so anytime i see censorship installed where it wasn't before, i get scared. very scared.

and i think one of the most ironic things about this whole censorship thing is that admin and others have voiced their concern over kids reading this kind of stuff. but the kids here are the ones abusing these kinds of words. in real life, teens talk this way.  nobody is really being protected. now admiral has a point about the reflection on us all in a professional aspect. but that goes back to each of us representing ourselves in the way we would like to have others view and respect us. Those who don't know how to do that will get a much faster lesson from their peers than they will from a censorship programming option. And for God's sake, as long they don't spill over into serious threads, who really cares how these kids talk amongst themselves in their 'chat' threads? I sure don't.

but i guess as long as we are having this enforced upon us, i will amuse myself with it by reading threads with a silence where the dots are and imagine i am watching an r-movie on TV that has been edited so 6 yo's can watch it


----------



## satanicpoptart (Jun 3, 2002)

you know, when politics get into conversation it always causes problems.   i think that as members we are given the privilge of posting here and participating.  If admin wants do censors on the boards, then he can, its his board.  as basic members and not admin's we don't have decision making powers in that kind of situation.

but it is a good topic to argue over


----------



## RacerX (Jun 3, 2002)

On this topic, I have always thought that the use of inappropriate language had no place on the boards. As has been pointed out, within the last six months we have seen an increase of posts by juvenile posters. Sadly, one of the forms of entertainment of such members was to see just how offensive they could get (with post count obsession running a close second).

As a Democrat (a.k.a. *Demostupes* or *Demodupes*, both of which are by far the most offensive terms I've seen on the boards to date) I am completely against the idea of censorship. I would have liked to have seen us as a group force members who had problems with inappropriate language to shape up in order to fit in (most likely the same type of peer pressure which started them using such language to begin with). The use of offensive language seems to be a way of getting attention, and as these young members started to fit in they seemed to drop the use of it.

As a social group, it is natural for some to be noticed more than others. It is also natural for some to want to be noticed by others and to use what ever means they think works (like language and post counts) to get recognition from the group. From experience we have seen that members can fit in and feel like productive parts of the groups even if they started out using negative means when senior members take the time to acknowledge them. 

I would say that the banning of members has worked (even if it was needed more than once to get the point across). I would say that the censoring of some words is actually helpful to those who lack self control. And I would say that Admin has infact gone to far censoring _common words_ (if it appears in a standard dictionary, then it really has no place being a banned word). The examples that Simone pointed out fall into the definition of _common words_ by my understanding.

To date I have not seen any words converted in any of my posts, but I think I would stand (or rather walk, as the case maybe) with Ed if I started to feel that common language was deemed inappropriate in this forum. Like Ed, I have been disappointed with the juvenile behavior and the shameless attempts to grab attention over the last few months. When I consider who I really am here to talk with and the fact that some of the people who started out that way are now productive members (whom I consider friends), it makes it easier to go looking through the pointless posts to find the ones worth reading. Lets face it, we have had some real great post here and I believe there are many more to come.


----------



## edX (Jun 3, 2002)

i agree Coach.

and satanicpoptart, will you still fell the same way when 'satan' or 'satanic' get added to the list of censored words? see, the point is not to just brush it off if it doesn't effect you. if you take that approach, sooner or later it will effect you.  see, in this case, Simone's best line out of his signiture has been censored. now it doesn't really effect me, but it does my friend Simone.


----------



## Matrix Agent (Jun 3, 2002)

Now, I may not be as experienced as many of you out there, but I have also been at the forums for most of its existance. Only recently has the issue of cersorship been such a hot topic. If some users in this board have used vulgarity as a means of gaining attention, why not, at least in the short term, allow censorship to continue, to demonstrate to these users that this place will not pay attention to or tolerate that type of beahavior. The same goes for those who spam the boards looking for high post numbers. Most users will be quick to oblige if you simply point out that this board does not weigh heavily on #'s, and has no ranks. Tell them that the quickest way to gain the respect of fellow users it to be intelligent and humorus. 

Ed, I must disagree with you, though undoubtably you have had more experience with censorship than I.  I fail to see how the censorship of a few cuss words will lead to the ultimate censorship of certain ideas. If that time ever came to be, I believe that there is enough of the upstanding type of user here to make a difference. Admittedly, the censorship of those few words is bizzare, and most likely unneeded. But in reality, how much usage is gained from those words? A little bit of suffering on our parts could do much to clean up this site. I must say that I feel the only reason this has become such a political argument is that many members resent Admin's democrat-bashing thoughts (which I have not read.), he too has ter right to express these ideas, try to be accepting. Once he starts censoring pro-democrat and anti-republican retoric, you will have found yourself a new ally, until then, I'm going to join a few other people in asking the forum as a whole to cool it off, step back, and see how things work out on their own.


----------



## ScottW (Jun 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by BlingBling 3k12 _
> *
> 
> You used it... you felt like you needed to use it... you pretty much got yourself censored by yourself...
> ...



Ummm... I did that on purpose.


----------



## xoot (Jun 3, 2002)

Thank you, Admin, for your comment on this issue. Why did you do it?


----------



## ScottW (Jun 3, 2002)

Wow, you'd think I had given dog food to all the kitty cats! 

I have been busy with my new child, but have had a few moments to give in and see what all the cussing (err fussing) is about.

First off, I have removed the word "suck" from the filter list.

Secondly, all other words will remain censored until further notice. I personally am tired of watching those with a foul mouth run this board into the ground. If you don't like it, leave. Go cuss somewhere else. I hate cussing, and would prefer not to hear it. I thought saying **** was cool in 8th grade. Anyone else who thinks saying **** is cool, then well, like I said, 8th grade.

Now, for those demodupes. Please. You took offense to that? My goodness. You can all dish it out but you can't take it. I'm a Republican and proud of it. You can call Republican's whatever you want, I honestly don't care. I have better things to do with my life than worry about nonsense. If you lost respect for me because of that comment, then I just lost respect for you because of your inability to take a little bit of fun.

Honestly folks, look at you and this thread. Come on, show some maturity. Of all people, Ed, I thought you would understand.

I have never censored ideas, I have only banned a few because of cussing. Banning doesn't work, therefore I have resorted to the current means.

I might be a parent, but I am not YOUR parents. I don't have time to baby-sit you nor to punish everyone, and then to put up with hundreds of emails begging forgiveness and wanting to return back. It's the, "Please teacher, can I go to recess, I promise I won't do it again." Yea, RIGHT. That worked real well.

Sorry, I have little feelings left for this area. Clean up your acts folks. It's just language. And for those who think the US constitution covers this board? Nope, don't think so. No such thing as free speech around here. The only free speech around here is granted, not by the US Constitution, but by the Admin's Free Will which is granted by God.

Enjoy, Have fun... Carry on.

Admin


----------



## xoot (Jun 3, 2002)

All right, simX, close this thread...


----------



## RacerX (Jun 3, 2002)

> _by Admin_
> *Now, for those demodupes. Please. You took offense to that? My goodness. You can all dish it out but you can't take it. I'm a Republican and proud of it. You can call Replican's whatever you want, I honestly don't care. I have better things to do with my life than worry about nonsense. If you lost respect for me because of that comment, then I just lost respect for you because of your inability to take a little bit of fun.*



I can both dish it out and take it. I would venture that I am second to none in that area. But I have never resorted to name calling. I don't know if you remember the thread, but it was on the government and it's systems in general, and up to your post and after, no political parties were degraded in such a way. I have my political beliefs and you have yours, why would either of us need to resort to name calling... sounds like something some one would do in the _8th grade_, doesn't it?


----------



## edX (Jun 3, 2002)

once more xoot, you just don't get it 

Admin- there are 2 areas that i try my best to never 'put down' in general terms because people who identify with them will take it as personal - religion and politics. When you wrote those words about democrats, they very much felt like personal attacks (even though i know they weren't meant that way). It felt like you had broken your own rule about no personal attacking which is one i strongly support. And all i ever really wanted from you was some sort of acknowledgment (like maybe an apology of some sorts) that you didn't mean to demean me and my beliefs in that way. But i will admit this is getting off subject. i only brought it up because it did leave a lasting impression and did color my perceptions when the censorship went down. And still all it would take to regain my respect is a few words of apology.

I can certainly respect the position you are taking about it being easier to just let the software police the boards than you. Given the enormous amount of responsibilities you must have as a proud new dad, i can see your point.  and perhaps as we find more words that have some other usefulness than profanity, we can fine tune the filtering so that common words like suck don't just disappear from our vocabularies. I still disagree with the entire concept of censoring, but i can accept your reasons as valid ones for the time being. I agree with Coach about it being more of an opportunity for those abusers to learn with the banishment system, but you're right, it's not me listening to their whining to get back. either way, i'm not sure wtf to do about xoot. Maybe we can find him a sport to play or something 

and to clear up what still seems to be a misunderstanding - the US constitution would cover this board if you wanted to exercise those rights. The constitution (and bill of rights)is not a law, but rather a guideline for laws. It does not force you to allow cussing, at least as of current interpretations. But it would protect the right to cuss if you did allow it. I have yet to argue that you don't have the right to do what you are doing. I just feel it is morally wrong. but then Vanguard would tell you i am wrong 99% of the time so... (in fact i seem to remember defending your right to make choices about the site regardless of what we think)


----------



## ScottW (Jun 3, 2002)

Well, the US Consitution thing was not clearly spoken. Yes, it does cover this board, while at the same time, it doesn't nessarily cover your rights on this board. If that makes any sense. If I wanted to censor discussions and block all conversations about Mac rumors, I could do that. By if you post false information about a company, they may legally request it be removed or sue you who posted the information. So, anyhow. Thats that.

As for the demodupes, yes it was meant in jest. I apologize to those who felt it was WRONG. I never read that thread beyond my post, so don't have a clue if I got chewed out in that thread or not.

Life is good. Live it. 

Admin


----------



## edX (Jun 3, 2002)

apology accepted. 

(ok, i'm not quite feeling all warm and fuzzy inside, but i'm getting there )


----------



## simX (Jun 3, 2002)

Wow.

I never intended this to get into a big discussion about the Constitution or anything like that.  I just wanted the words "suck" and "p" "i" "s" "s" taken off the censored word list, because they have a legitimate usage.

Kudos to Admin for doing half of it.

Note that I never saw the comments by Admin in question and that it was never in my "agenda" to call Admin's position in question.  I just felt that the censorship of those two words was wrong, and should stop.  That's it.

At least my sig makes sense now, though.


----------



## edX (Jun 4, 2002)

he he 

well, that was the main point wasn't it? and i got the apology i wanted from admin. what do you say we call it a day and chalk one up in the win column? 

seriously - i believe all i wrote and i still look forward to dlookus's explanation i asked for. but win or lose, this has been the most interesting and engaging thread in weeks. all sorts of people crept out of the woodworks and "weighed in" on this subject. and hopefully some late comers still will. It is just so much more fun to have these kinds of discussions than just zinging one liners back and forth in this forum. 

so one last word about 'insane' posting - folks, if all you want to do is type a line and get a one line reply, try the chat room. that is what it is for. The forums provide us with an opportunity to really express ourselves and to make meaningful conversation at a slower pace. Is there any way at all that you 'one line kings' can respect that? and respect the admin's desire to not have foul language scattered thru every thread? because what just happened with Simone is a good example of how your lack of thought does effect others, not just yourselves.


----------



## sithious (Jun 4, 2002)

well done.


----------



## AdmiralAK (Jun 4, 2002)

lol SIMX I take on your challenge to stop using the word "need"  -- for how long though ?  --- I';ve got my trusty thesaurus here with me and I require of myself now to find some pretty good synonims for this dastardly word


----------



## dlookus (Jun 4, 2002)

OK Ed,
Here's what I was I thought was unnecessary about your post:

*but frankly, admin has never been that much of this site. *

Here you're trying to alienate Admin from the rest of the group

*and until his recent slanders of democrats i had the utmost respect for him.*

This is a terrible thing to say about a person. Again, your speaking to the rest of the group, not Admin. You say you don't like to put people down about religion or politics, but apparently what you mean is: to their face. This is not a very mature way to get your point across. It's also off topic. You're bringing up seperate issues to exacerbate the current argument. What do you hope to accomplish with this statement?

*In light of those cheap shots, this censorship action just looks like more right wing control of freedoms to me, the same kind of mentality that fueled the inquisition and book burnings - deciding what is too dangerous for others and taking on the patriarchical role of protecting them from themselves (a very republican kind of thing to do i have noticed). *

We know how you feel about republicans, but this goes too far. Are you just going to associate Admin with everything bad that anyone who's to the right has ever done? You are generalizing in the worst way.

*However, it is the people here that have always made this site a place i want to be. there are many i would hate to lose touch with. there are many people that i enjoy 'listening' to what they have to say.*
Again alienating admin and speaking to the rest of us.

None of this was necessary, and yes I think you were overreacting. How is this a war?

We all have a choice. If we think things aren't good, we go somewhere else. It's that simple. I like it here too, but I really can't say that I saw big black clouds on the horizon when I realized Admin censored these words.


----------



## ksv (Jun 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Admin _
> *
> ...
> First off, I have removed the word "suck" from the filter list.
> ...



Actually, I feel more offended by a well formulated sentence generalizing 8 graders as people with low social intelligence and limited vocabulary, than by anyone telling me "**** you, Kjetil!".

Do I have to write twenty more lines to make you understand?


----------



## googolplex (Jun 4, 2002)

Guys, it is his board he can censor what he wants. The US constitution has nothing to do with this, he can do what he wants. Its not a big deal that you can't say some things. It doesn't totally make sense to me that I can say ass but I couldn't say suck, but it isn't going to change my life.


----------



## apb3 (Jun 4, 2002)

Man, this is why I left the macfixiit boards!

I am pretty conservative, Republican (in voting) but consider myself a civlil libertarian (the classical sense, not what the media will make it out to be - can you tell I was a polisci major?).

I couldn't be more against censorship in any form. As long as you're not hurting someone else, do it, say it, whatever. 

Yes, this is Admin's board. BUT, in creating a public forum he takes on certain responsibilities and safeguarding the Constitution and freedom of expression are two of those responsibilities. Sorry, but it's true.

Now, if Admin were to craft a thorough (and I do mean THOROUGH!) acceptable use / policy statement outlining EXACTLY what is and is not allowed, had everyone read and agree to it and acted in a consistent and methodical way in his censorship then MAYBE there'd be precedent on which he could stand. Even then, I wouldn't want to be on his side of the bar in a trial...

In short, I never knew there was a problem here. Everyone policed themselves and freaks and troublemakers were quickly booted. God, I hope this doesn't continue. I have really enjoyed this board and it really helps a lot of people. 

BUT, I draw the line when something is an affront to my convictions - no matter if it directly effects me or not or whether it is a huge issue or a small incident. You start censoring "suck" and then what?


----------



## ScottW (Jun 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by apb3 _
> *BUT, I draw the line when something is an affront to my convictions - no matter if it directly effects me or not or whether it is a huge issue or a small incident. You start censoring "suck" and then what? *



Yep you never know. Heck, "The" might be censored next week if you all don't stop using it.

<rolling eyes>

Give me a BREAK. I'll just shut down the whole board... will that make you all happy? I pay the bills, if I want to block ****, ****, and *****, I can block it if I want.

Get a life folks. I am loosing confidence in some of you. I have ran this place for how long and I block like 5 words and the whole place wants to hang me.

Go figure.

Admin


----------



## ScottW (Jun 4, 2002)

Okay... VOTE...

1) I can either leave censorship on blocking like 5 words...

-OR-

2) I will post new rules saying if you cuss your out of here and you will be banned with no option to return. Of course, cussing will be subjective to my definition of cussing.

Your choice. Either be filtered or be banned.


----------



## sithious (Jun 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Admin _
> *Okay... VOTE...
> 
> 1) I can either leave censorship on blocking like 5 words...
> ...



... so what would those 5 words be? after all, i've got to know what i'm supposed to be voting about ...


----------



## ScottW (Jun 4, 2002)

Nope... I won't say those words on the board. You either get subjective decision by ME or you get filtered.


----------



## simX (Jun 4, 2002)

Now that Admin has eliminated the word "suck" from the filtered words list, let me say a little bit in defense of him.  No, I'm not "switching sides", but I'm just trying to clarify my position and why I brought up this topic.

NOWHERE in my argument did I use the "U.S. Constitution" to support why I think that the two words should be uncensored.  In my opinion, the U.S. Constitution really has no place here on the boards because it IS Admin's board.  And to be honest, without trying to offend anyone, I think it's a little ridiculous to hide behind an idealistic document.

The argument I was using was common sense, nothing more.  1) The word had a common usage.  2) The potentially "offensive" word has lost it's edge, and has now become common usage.  3) No one, even Admin, objected to the fact that I was evading the censorship, and thus there is no reason to censor the words.

These arguments go for both the word "suck" and the word "p" "i" "s" "s".  I'd still like to see "p" "i" "s" "s" uncensored.

However, I do not want Admin to be called a dictator and a dirty Republican and all that stuff.  I'm glad that Admin understood what I was trying to say and eventually took "suck" off the censored word list.  While I did say before that Admin was acting a little like a dictator, it was because I was angry when he apparently was reading this thread but did not take any action.  Now that he has taken some action, I see that he isn't a dictator.

Guys, the comments about Republicans v. Democrats should be taken to another thread.  This isn't about Admin's views.  It's about Admin's censorship.  I objected to the censorship of the word "suck", and I STILL object to the censorship of the word "p" "i" "s" "s".  I still want Admin to take it off the list.  That's it, plain and simple.

I hope that clarifies some things.  If we are taking a "vote", I am still for the censorship of the blatantly offensive words (like "suck", but changing the "s" to an "f").  I just don't want common words to be censored (like "p" "i" "s" "s").


----------



## Winblows (Jun 4, 2002)

are we suppose to obey your almighty command? will anybody see this post or will i be banned before its posted? because if it did, that would be the death of me... nobody asked you to pay the bills, so by all means shut down the board if that will prove your power.. i admin a board myself, not as much traffic as this one, but none the less theer are still complaints that have to be dealt with whether they are meaningful or meaningless (which all of mine are)


----------



## ksv (Jun 4, 2002)

Oh, this is soooo mature  
All this is completely hilarious.


----------



## apb3 (Jun 4, 2002)

hilarious, ridiculous, defensive and, basically, what's turned into a p*ssing contest. It has now come down to, "It's my ball and I'll go home."

Nice knowing you all. Too bad. <ROLLING EYES (in pity and disbelief - not sarcasm as I was subjected to)>

Guess i have to stand for something or Blah Blah blah - you know the rest.


----------



## satanicpoptart (Jun 4, 2002)

to eds post on page 2 i think, they admin will not censor "satan", if he did he would be forced to sensor the word "christ" "god" "jesus" "alah" ect.


----------



## dlookus (Jun 4, 2002)

And here I was thinking the argument was over. 

Admin is just looking out for people here. What is the problem with just using F*** or WTF or any other means of saying the same thing? I don't really see why it's necessary to use these words anyway.

I agree with SimX. It's fine to mask the words that are purely offensive, but leave the ones that have other meanings alone.

What about a compromise. Can we replace the words with A**H*** instead of ******* or F*** instead of ****? Would that make anyone happy?


----------



## AdmiralAK (Jun 4, 2002)

hmmm.... it's time to declare  (and brand) this thread officially
"A debate thread" ... now where is my branding iron dangnabbit....
I require my branding iron


lol 

At this point, on the fifth page of this, our thread, I ask all of you to take a deep breath 

admiral


----------



## nkuvu (Jun 4, 2002)

This is only the third page.  

And can we let out our deep breath now?  I'm turning blue...


----------



## AdmiralAK (Jun 4, 2002)

with my preferences its 5 

I am trying to troubleshoot windows XP installations while reading this board lol  --- (windows stinks...jeez...I have spend MORE than 3 hours trying to install it on the PC next to this mac.  I upgraded this mac in hald an hour to a brand new OS, and brandpanking new browsers, media players, readers and whatnots.

I again say, no matter what page this is p)
Leave politics outta this, leave god and government out of this, just put a sock in it for 2 hours, no one responds here for two hours, and think about it. Let cooler heads prevail here.

We've been building this board up for 2 years, kinda stupid to see it get flushed down the toilet like this.


Admiral


----------



## Winblows (Jun 4, 2002)

but what fun is a board where everybody gets along? obviously everyone is smarter than everyone one else and they must prove theirselves.. so i say, **** **** **** cunt cocksucker mother ****er **** fart turd and twat


----------



## Winblows (Jun 4, 2002)

check it out.. you can say cocksucker, but not ****, interesting


----------



## dlookus (Jun 4, 2002)

Bravo


----------



## rinse (Jun 4, 2002)

this thread is ridiculous... can we just shut it down?


----------



## Winblows (Jun 4, 2002)

it cant be that rediculous, you responded.. besides, no ones forcing you to read it, and it cant be that much of an inconvenience to overlook it


----------



## ScottW (Jun 4, 2002)

The debate is over. New policy is in effect. Thanks to SimX we are now enforcing cussing on this board. But not filtering it.


----------

