# EVERYONE on this planet should read this!



## PowermacG4_450 (Feb 9, 2003)

got this from a friend via email... 

I think it states what clearly needs repeating.
Love and
GOD BLESS AMERICA,
George and Leslie
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SOMEONE FINALLY SAID IT. I think everyone on this planet needs to read this. This was sent by a 78-year old former nun. The Thoughts are pure and we all understand the point.... 

There are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some native Americans, need to understand. 

First of all, it is not our responsibility to continually try not to offend you in any way. This idea of America being a multicultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity.

As Americans, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language, and our own lifestyle. This culture, called the "American Way" has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials, and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom. 

Our forefathers fought, bled, and died at places such as Bunker Hill, Antietam, San Juan, Iwo Jima, Normandy, Korea, Vietnam... 

We speak English, not Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society -- learn our language!"

In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some off-the-wall, Christian, Right Wing, political slogan - it is our national motto. It is engraved in stone in the House of Representatives in our Capitol and it is printed on our currency. We adopted this motto because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation and this is clearly documented throughout our history. If it 
Is appropriate for our motto to be inscribed in the halls of our highest 
Level of Government, then it is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls
of our schools.

God is in our pledge, our National Anthem, nearly every patriotic song, and in our founding documents. We honor His birth, death, and resurrection as holidays, and we turn to Him in prayer in times of crisis. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture and we are proud to have Him.

We are proud of our heritage and those who have so honorably defended our freedoms.	We celebrate Independence Day, Memorial Day,
Veterans Day, and Flag Day.	We have parades, picnics, and barbecues
where we proudly wave our flag.

As an American, I have the right wave my flag, sing my national anthem, quote my national motto, and recite my pledge whenever and wherever
I choose. If the Stars and Stripes offend you, or you don't like 
Uncle Sam, then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet.

The American culture is our way of life, our heritage, and we are proud of it.We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. Like it or not, this is our country, our land, and our lifestyle. 

Our First Amendment gives every citizen the right to express his opinion about our government, culture, or society, and we will allow you every opportunity to do so. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about our flag, our pledge, our national motto, or our way of life, I highly encourage you to take advantage of one other great American freedom:

THE RIGHT TO LEAVE!

Another thing: To those who do complain about the usage of words like 'God' and 'American' and speaking the language of our great nation,

TRY GOING TO ANOTHER COUNTRY AND SPEAK AGAINST WHAT YOU DON'T LIKE. YOU WILL MORE THAN LIKELY END UP JAILED OR EVEN KILLED. 

In America, you take your right to complain for granted. The more patriotism that is removed from where our children are taught, the less our
children will learn about what it is to be an American and our nation's spirit will slowly be killed. Keep patriotism alive. 

If you agree, pass this on to other Americans! It is time to take a stand!

God Bless America and our Military and our Veterans!


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## mrfluffy (Feb 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PowermacG4_450 _
> *our own language...
> 
> We speak English*


...


> _Originally posted by PowermacG4_450 _
> *God Bless America and our Military and our Veterans! *


The american military has done nothing good since 1945*, other than illegaly stop an election in veitnam and then kill loads of its people, did pretty much nothing overall in Korea and pussied out of fighting the Iranians so your government installed Mr Hussien in Iraq and sold him weapons to kill the Iranians. God Bless America indeed.


*to make it clear I, like everyone in Europe, am very glad America helped in WWII.


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## PowermacG4_450 (Feb 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by mrfluffy _
> *...
> 
> The american military has done nothing good since 1945*, *


* 


LOL. you just dont have a clue. Your entitled to your opinion. Even a wrong one.*


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## Giaguara (Feb 9, 2003)

We are all human beings. 

*Peace*. Human beings are one race.


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## Giaguara (Feb 9, 2003)

Not all the world thinks like Bush, Blair or Berlusconi... not even in US, UK or rest of 'civilizedì World.


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## kalantna (Feb 9, 2003)

Loved the picture and I'm American too. 

The biggest problems suffered by Americans are that our country is so big that we really have no sense of the rest of the world and that, militarily speaking, we tred a two sided dagger. We are damned if we do and damned if we don't. I once heard someone say that it was America's job to police the planet, yet if we do that we are under constant fire from our international counterparts for placing our nose where it doesn't belong. 

I believe that American's perceptions of the world would change if our government would stop coddling us and protecting us from the threats the rest of the world faces constantly. 

There I've said my peace.


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## pds (Feb 9, 2003)

well stated.

living in the arab world, i am constantly amazed that americans can't suss out that the way to pull the rug out from under the feet of fundo-terrorists is to solve the problem in palestine.

that is not all that difficult, just give the palestinians a contiguous land mass as their state according to UN SC resolutions and the treaties that Israel has signed on to (Oslo for one). Guarantee the existence of a palestinian state, and help them establish a civil society.

We're talking about the good will of one fifth of the world's people here. Surely that is more in the national interest than supporting the territorial greed of about half of the Israeli public. Especially when it is a principle of self determination.

lots to say, but it is a macos board...


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## JohnnyV (Feb 9, 2003)

America doesn't have an offically declared language.


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## BitWit (Feb 9, 2003)

"Love it or leave it" is what the Nazis were saying to the Jews in the 30's.

The truest freedom we have is:
"Love it, or make it better so you can love it"


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## TommyWillB (Feb 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by JohnnyV _
> *America doesn't have an offically declared language. *


California does!

A few years ago the "wise" people of this state voted for an "English First" proposition. (It might have even been an amendment to the CA Constitution, but I can't remember for sure.)

To me this is right up there with our CA legistlators telling me that I can NOT marry the man of my choice. (The same person I've been together & in love with for over 11 years now!) I'm not quite sure how that actually acheives the goal of "defending marrage".

Sorry for ranting...


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## Decado (Feb 9, 2003)

I'm sorry, PowermacG4_450, but that kind of texts makes me sick. It just creates an even greater anti-american movement. You are not the oldest, nor the greatest. you are not always right.
I thought nobody really spoke about the whole "american way"-thing seriously.
But as written: everyone is entitled an opinion.


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## BitWit (Feb 9, 2003)

Americans wear blinders. We are consumers of the rest of the world's resources. We are responsible for much suffering. We wear people's lives on our feet, then throw them away. We refuse to cooperate with environmental responsibility. Our country is _practically_ run by drug and oil coorporations.

I refuse to leave America.

I demand a better America.

America has the potential to save the human race, or destroy it. Which do you think America is doing right now?

I'm not even going to touch the religious half of this discussion, out of respect for people's spirituality.


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## Decado (Feb 9, 2003)

BitWit for president!


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## chevy (Feb 9, 2003)

Simple answers to complex questions usually don't lead to long lasting solutions.


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## mrfluffy (Feb 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PowermacG4_450 _
> *LOL. you just dont have a clue. Your entitled to your opinion. Even a wrong one. *


name something


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## kenny (Feb 9, 2003)

This "love it or leave it" kind of mentality is both simplistic and dangerous. It is (as another poster mentioned) the sort of thing that the Nazis told the Jews back in the day. But worse than that, it ignores an essential part of what has made the US what it is.

First, this sentiment is a direct contradiction of the entire "melting pot" philosophy of the US, instead displaying an intolerance and meanspiritedness that is both uncharacteristic and harmful. While "In God We Trust" is generally accepted as a national slogan, it is not the first, nor the best at expressing the plurality that makes up the US. The official slogan that better does that is "E Pluribus Unum" - "From Many, One".

Second, it's very sloppy thinking to on one hand say "In America, you take your right to complain for granted." and on the other hand to demand that those who do leave the country. All that is saying is "You can believe/say what ever you want, unless you disagree with me. If you do, get out of _my_ country." That is not patriotism, that's nationalism. There is a difference.

While I'm at it, let me point out a couple of other things that bother me about posts like this:



> "In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some off-the-wall, Christian, Right Wing, political slogan - it is our national motto.



No, it is exactly a that. "In God We Trust" was not adopted until 1956, during the height of McCarthyism in the US, in part as a way to distance ourselves from the godless, atheistic, communist threat that we percieved as our greatest foe. A good primer for this at http://www.religioustolerance.org/nat_mott.htm - which goes into the history of the phrase and its opposition by past presidents. In the end, the lobbying power of Protestent organizations won out and it began appearing on currency (and everywhere else) the next year.



> We adopted this motto because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation and this is clearly documented throughout our history.



Again, wrong. The documentation shows quite the opposite: http://www.dimensional.com/~randl/founders.htm - At the most, some of the founding fathers were Deists, but that is not the same as founding a nation on Christian ideals.  Thomas Jefferson said "Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law." Unfortunately, the myth of the US being a Chrisitan-founded nation persists, despite the huge amount of evidence to the contrary.



> We speak English, not Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society -- learn our language!



No. We speak English, _and_ Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, and many other languages. The US does not, nor should it, have an official state language. To suggest that everyone who comes here should have to learn our English is both meanspirited and hypocritical. How many Americans travel abroad without becoming fluent in the local language of their destinations? More than that, it again displays a nationalism which is inappropriate for a country who claims to be tolerant and accepting of all peoples. Personally, I think it's very interesting to see other languages being used in the public arena. Even George W. Bush speaks some Spanish, which probably came in handy while governer of Texas, which has a sizable Mexican-American population.

BTW, Mexican-Americans have, according to the 2000 census, become the predominant ethnic minority in the US. It only stand to reason that as their numbers continue to grow, we'll see increasing influences on our culture.

Personally, I think that the "nun" who is supposed to have written the original post was a twit.

I could go on, but I've probably said too much already..


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## ksv (Feb 9, 2003)

This thread is so ridiculous that I refuse wasting my time on it


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## Cat (Feb 9, 2003)

_This idea of America being a multicultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity.

As Americans, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language, and our own lifestyle. This culture, called the "American Way" has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials, and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom._

It is central feature of American history, that there is no such thing as an etnic "american" race. Almost all original inhabitants of America have been almost completely wiped out. What population lives today in the USA can trace their ancestory back to the "old world". In anthropological terms it would take another half a million years before the current melting-pot could be called it's own race. America is essentailly multicultural and what identity it has has been constructed upon this fact. I cannot really see how this would "dilute sovereingty". Centuries of struggels I'll accept, but since America can be said to have a national history not yet three have passed... I do not think you are seriously calling "the American way" a culture. If I were to think that you really mean that, I would think you were offending America. There is much much more to American culture that can be expressed by "the American way", just like there is much more to e.g. Italian culture than what can be expressed by "Pizza".

_Our forefathers fought, bled, and died at places such as Bunker Hill, Antietam, San Juan, Iwo Jima, Normandy, Korea, Vietnam..._ 

So? Do you think that was a good thing in itself? As far as I know my forefathers have fought on the wrong sides in WW II, Germany and Italy. I am proud of having their cultural heritage, but not because they fought and died. War is in itself a bad thing, to be used only a last measure, sacrificing life for higher ideals, like Honor and Truth, not for Pride or Greed (which is a sin according to christians).

_We speak English, not Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society -- learn our language!_

Since this was already commented upon I will refrain from making further comments. It occurs to me however that you keep speaking of "you" and "our". Who exactly are you talking to ? Potential immigrants? Ignorant children?

_"In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some off-the-wall, Christian, Right Wing, political slogan - it is our national motto. It is engraved in stone in the House of Representatives in our Capitol and it is printed on our currency. We adopted this motto because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation and this is clearly documented throughout our history. If it is appropriate for our motto to be inscribed in the halls of our highest
Level of Government, then it is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls
of our schools._

Correctly you say *if*. Now think very hard about it. IF. And what if not? I do not believe in your god. Will you kill me? deport me? make me believe? The Inquisition believed in god too. If you exclude people with a different opinion and beliefs, you will be left with a very small, narrow minded and fundamentalistic bunch. Like, say, Al-Quaida. They trust in god too. Their god that is, not your god. Despite historical evidence that they probably are the same deity... Please don't brainwash children.

_God is in our pledge, our National Anthem, nearly every patriotic song, and in our founding documents. We honor His birth, death, and resurrection as holidays, and we turn to Him in prayer in times of crisis. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture and we are proud to have Him._

God is a nosy old busybody...  Fine: trust in god, believe in god by all means. Just keep in mind that god said "Love your neighbor like yourself" which includes the Taliban, and said "Thou shalst not kill", so why don't you disarm for instance and keep only defensive equipment at most, and "If struck on your left cheek, don't strike back, but show your right cheek". 9-11 was a divine punishment for America's sins. The end is near: penitenziagite! /sarcasm.

_We are proud of our heritage and those who have so honorably defended our freedoms. We celebrate Independence Day, Memorial Day,
Veterans Day, and Flag Day. We have parades, picnics, and barbecues where we proudly wave our flag._

That is indeed mostly a good idea to keep historical awareness alive. Try not to make it sound too folkloristic... I wonder exactly whose freedoms Americans have defended since the independence war...

_As an American, I have the right wave my flag, sing my national anthem, quote my national motto, and recite my pledge whenever and wherever I choose. _

So have I. But you have to admit that there are less appropriate occasions and moments for doing it. There are limits to freedom, because without limits, freedom would carry no meaning.

_If the Stars and Stripes offend you, or you don't like Uncle Sam, then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet._

I do live in another part of the planet. After reading your post, I consider myself lucky too ... 

_The American culture is our way of life, our heritage, and we are proud of it.We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. Like it or not, this is our country, our land, and our lifestyle._

That's very nice, but sounds a bit more static than reality is. Customs change and evolve continually. Especially in the period between 1950 and 2000 a lot of social changes have occurred. What/Who exactly are you admiring? The Founding Fathers? Jefferson? The Hippy generation? McCarthy?
"We really don't care how you did things where you came from" That is rude and offensive. Everybody can (and should try to) learn from internal criticism and cultures different than their own. I for instance have just learned a lot of things about American nationalism. 

_Our First Amendment gives every citizen the right to express his opinion about our government, culture, or society, and we will allow you every opportunity to do so. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about our flag, our pledge, our national motto, or our way of life, I highly encourage you to take advantage of one other great American freedom: THE RIGHT TO LEAVE!_

I don't care a lot to whine about flag, pledge, or motto, and only marginally about your way of life. What I do care about are your politics, economy and military action abroad. I disagree with most of these and I have reasons for it, which I am willing to debate. Yet you take no interest in how things are done by others. You have the right not to listen, but in the long run if every single USA citizen would take this attitude it would be very harmful to America.

_Another thing: To those who do complain about the usage of words like 'God' and 'American' and speaking the language of our great nation,
TRY GOING TO ANOTHER COUNTRY AND SPEAK AGAINST WHAT YOU DON'T LIKE. YOU WILL MORE THAN LIKELY END UP JAILED OR EVEN KILLED._

That is true of a lot of backward, poor, isolated, religiously fundamentalist nations. Yet it is very sad that things like this appear to be possible in America too. Would the first amendment permit me to burn an American flag in front of the White House? You are trying to get rid of people who speak against your country and make them leave. That is a very chaep and easy way of granting amendments, if you can make sure nobody is going to need them.

_In America, you take your right to complain for granted. The more patriotism that is removed from where our children are taught, the less our children will learn about what it is to be an American and our nation's spirit will slowly be killed. Keep patriotism alive._

Patriottism should have no need of being taught.
If you are in need of teaching patriottism, there is something wrong with your country. Patriottism should arise spontaneously, because you are proud of your country, not because "daddy said so".

_If you agree, pass this on to other Americans! It is time to take a stand!_

But against / for what exactly?

_God Bless America and our Military and our Veterans!_

I will not insult you by laughing, but know that I am deeply concerned about opinions like this. You definitely confirmed my worst prejudices about America, and I'm not happy about it... 



> We are all human beings.
> *Peace.* Human beings are one race.



I completely agree!  Don't empasize differences, look for the common ground you have. Try to understand each other, learn from each other! Get rid of those eyeflaps!

[Edited mostly for typo's  I was quite agitated  ...]


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## Decado (Feb 9, 2003)

I totally agree with Cat! I have been lucky to have some american friends so i know that far from all americans are flag-waving nationalists without self-distance. But crap like this really scares me. We have had enough of nationalism in Europe, i thought our misstakes had been a good lesson for the world. obviously some people have skipped history-class


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## BitWit (Feb 9, 2003)

Im going to get along just fine here.


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## Ugg (Feb 9, 2003)

When the founding fathers wrote the constitution they didn't deal with slavery although even then it was becoming an issue.  They also allowed only males who owned property to vote, thereby negating the opinions of a MAJORITY  of the population.  The rights of Native Americans weren't even considered.  Much less those of the buffalo, the carrier pigeon, and countless other plants, animals and ecosystems that were destroyed by the greed of the early citizens of the USA.  

Why is it that your "nun" doesn't mention any of the above?  Surely just because something once existed does not mean that it should be allowed to exist for all eternity.  Even donkeys, in the natural course of things, are allowed to die of old age.


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## Inline_guy (Feb 9, 2003)

What I find the most interesting is the statement :: "This culture, called the "American Way" has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials, and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom."

Now she is saying that is what our country was founded on, but now don't continue in this.  We are done and fully formed.  No more struggling, trials for the things you believe in if they rock the boat.  

Sorry.  We are like Kenny said.   From many.  One.  And that is a process that will be forever on going.

As for being PC.  I agree to a point.  We as a whole are afraid to speak our minds and rock the boat.  But that is up to every individual to decide.  Just like this nun has her opinion and expressed it, so does everyone here.  That is what makes it exciting. I say speak your mind.  If it makes people mad then that is something you and that person can deal with.

As for me, I will try to make everyone I love (no matter how different) feel at home.  Even if we do not speak the same language. 

Matthew


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## scruffy (Feb 9, 2003)

> I refuse to leave America.
> 
> I demand a better America.


Well said, BitWit!

Was it Voltaire said "I don't agree with a word you say, but I'll fight to the death to defend your right to say it?"

It speaks to the principles on which the USA was founded, but you don't see much of it in the words or actions of many "patriots".

PowermacG4_450, I accuse you, and the "nun" you quote (and for that matter, G. Bush, père et fils) of being anti-American, in the sense of being fundamentally opposed to the philosophy that underlies the founding of America.

I accuse you of being too reactionary to recognize efforts to promote, further, and develop the essential impulse for freedom at the heart of the American nation, blinded by the fact that many of the people making those efforts don't speak the right language, worship at the right temple, or drive the right car.

Now, will you defend yourself, or will you attack my right to accuse you?


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## Decado (Feb 10, 2003)

ex nuns, just can't trust them


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## edX (Feb 10, 2003)

> Was it Voltaire said "I don't agree with a word you say, but I'll fight to the death to defend your right to say it?"
> 
> It speaks to the principles on which the USA was founded, but you don't see much of it in the words or actions of many "patriots".



all too true. these days they just want to fight to the death for the sake of fighting. as far as i'm concerned these people have the right to die any way they choose, but they don't have the right to choose how others die. Borg mentality. but no doubt they would be rooting for Picard in the movie, while never realizing they are his enemy.


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## symphonix (Feb 10, 2003)

I think the biggest mistake America has made in recent years is pressuring Iraq to disarm in a way that forces Saddam to stand his ground.

In the Cuban missile crisis, Kennedy was wise enough to offer the soviets a way to back down and remove their weapons without losing face. He made it clear to them that if they did disarm it would be a token of peace and goodwill, and would be respected for it. The Soviets were able to take their missiles back without being shamed in the eyes of their people.

Bush's stand against Saddam Hussien makes it impossible for Iraq to disarm without losing credibility and the respect of its people and neighbours.

Just my two cents, which is the average daily salary for most of the world.


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## Cat (Feb 10, 2003)

Worst of all, not attaking Iraq will now result in loss of credibility for Bush ... He (or at least his advisors) know this, and will try (as they have up to now) to begin a war, while many others still believe in a peaceful solution (supported by Germany, France, Russia & China).

I regret to say that it now seems just as if America is the biggest destabilizing factor in the Middle-East.


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## kalantna (Feb 10, 2003)

Cat Said: 
"God Bless America and our Military and our Veterans! 

 I will not insult you by laughing, but know that I am deeply concerned about opinions like this. You definitely confirmed my worst prejudices about America, and I'm not happy about it..."

I have to disagree with your response, Cat. For the simple reason that not all of our military personnel signed up to go fight in a war. For many lower class people this is the best (if not the only) way to make something of themselves in this country. They go where there told or they will be courtmarshalled. This occurrence goes on permanent records of individuals in America and many employers won't hire you if you have a dishonorable discharge or a courtmarshal. 

I support the individuals that make up our military, not their commanders.


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## mrfluffy (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by symphonix _
> *I think the biggest mistake America has made in recent years is pressuring Iraq to disarm in a way that forces Saddam to stand his ground.*


I would argue it was selling them to him in the first place (as well as Britain and probably most of western Europe as well).


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## BitWit (Feb 10, 2003)

Yeah, this goes back a long time, and nobody likes to hear how it all got started. (we practically invited them into Kuwait...oops)


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## edX (Feb 10, 2003)

> Bush's stand against Saddam Hussien makes it impossible for Iraq to disarm without losing credibility and the respect of its people and neighbours.



this sort of assumes that Bush has credibility to lose. i think that's a stretch and has been from the election fiasco onwards. 

my own feeling is that Bush has read all the psychic predictions about the causes of the apocalypse and wants to be a part of it. (only half joking here  )

but i have to agree with all who have said that the idea of "Americans" as some sort of unified body of thought and action is simply a naive and dangersous assumption on anybody's part - be they American or other nationality.

One World - One People - Different Cultures - All Individuals


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## michaelsanford (Feb 10, 2003)

mrfluffy: I tend to agree with you
Giaguara: _Peace and love are indeed the only solution, and that is the most important!_

I intensely detest one of the main ideas put forth in that document, PowermacG4_G450. It presents a contradiction: speak your mind, but if you don't like where you live, leave. *The whole idea behind giving the population the right and freedom to speak one's mind is so that one can speak out again what you think is wrong.*

I see absolutely no difference between telling someone to leave because they don't agree with the government's ideas, and imprisoning them. Both situations offer the same about of freedom: none!


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## ksv (Feb 10, 2003)

http://bantha.cjb.net/stuffins/john/

Dupeedoo


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## Giaguara (Feb 10, 2003)

Wow, I found one thing i was looking for in that Canada switch site. Thanx ksv  (this)


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## Cat (Feb 10, 2003)

> I have to disagree with your response, Cat. For the simple reason that not all of our military personnel signed up to go fight in a war. For many lower class people this is the best (if not the only) way to make something of themselves in this country. They go where there told or they will be courtmarshalled. This occurrence goes on permanent records of individuals in America and many employers won't hire you if you have a dishonorable discharge or a courtmarshal.
> 
> I support the individuals that make up our military, not their commanders.



You do have a point there, Kalantna. But it isn't a country I would like to live in, one where the only way to survive or make somewhat of a career would be to join the military... that is a very sad and bad situation.
I probably don't know enough about American society (and tax system, etc.), but if the country would spend less on military means and invest that money in providing a better education for a lower price to it's citizens, all would be served better. I am fully aware that this is quite an utopia, however, especially with the current president.


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## doemel (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by mrfluffy _
> *I would argue it was selling them to him in the first place (as well as Britain and probably most of western Europe as well). *



That's absolutely correct. The Middle East was first destabilized by Britain (it was their common practice to create unstable national entities in order too keep strong opposition from developing). Iraq is an artificial creation of British imperialism. From early 20th century until the late 50s they successfully kept down the opposition and made sure they always had a puppet regime in power. In 1958 the Iraqi King was overthrown and executed by forces from within Iraq. The Brits were thrown out of the country. That's when they turned to the U.S., a cooperation that managed to throw the new government out of office in 1963. This went on and on until at one point Saddam Hussein emerged as Iraqi ruler. Soon after the whole Iran-Iraq issue started. I don't need to tell you who armed BOTH SIDES. So basically the U.S. and Britain now want to reclaim power over the vast oil resources and get Iraq to hand over weapons sold/given to Hussein by Reagan's U.S. and Thatcher's Britain.

OK, the whole story is more complicated than this but I just try to make a few points to explain why I and a lot more INFORMED and politically conscious people oppose Gulf War II.


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## symphonix (Feb 10, 2003)

Oh, and did you guys know that the nuclear reactors that Korea has activated ... the ones which Bush says are going to be used for making weapons ... were built for North Korea by the American government under Clinton?

You Americans really need to get back control of your government before they do more things to make you hated in the rest of the world. It's too easy to sit quietly while your elected representatives start wars in your name. At the very least, if you do oppose the war, write to your representative and attend a protest rally.

And the great news is, you CAN speak out against the war, and you DON'T have to leave, regardless of what a former nun says. If you are ashamed of what your government is doing, you're the only ones who can change it.


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## Cat (Feb 11, 2003)

IIRC there is going to be public protest against the war in every major european capital on Saturday 15th of February. Of course, since Britain and America are the two main warmongers, it would make sense to organize something there. I know of a lot of people that are going to London for protest... If you believe in peace, then let your voice be heard!

---

If you cannot find Osama, bomb Iraq.
If the markets are a drama, bomb Iraq.
If the terrorists are Saudi,
And your alibi is shoddy,
And your tastes remain quite gaudy,
Bomb Iraq.

If you never were elected, bomb Iraq.
If your mood is quite dejected, bomb Iraq.
If you think that SUVs,
Are the best thing since sliced cheese,
And your father you must please,
Bomb Iraq.

If the globe is quickly warming, bomb Iraq.
If the poor will soon be storming, bomb Iraq.
We assert that might makes right,
Burning oil is a delight,
For the empire we will fight,
Bomb Iraq.

If we have no allies with us, bomb Iraq.
If we think that someone's dissed us, bomb Iraq.
So to hell with the inspections,
Let's look tough for the elections,
Close your mind and take directions,
Bomb Iraq.

If corporate fraud is growin', bomb Iraq.
If your ties to it are showin', bomb Iraq.
If your politics are sleazy,
And hiding that aint easy,
And your manhoods getting queasy,
Bomb Iraq.

Fall in line and follow orders, bomb Iraq.
For our might now knows no borders, bomb Iraq.
Disagree? Well call it treason,
It's the make war not love season,
Even if we have no reason,
Bomb Iraq.

by John Robbins


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## toast (Feb 11, 2003)

This thread is completely hilarious, except for the Voltaire maxim which carries some truth.



> TRY GOING TO ANOTHER COUNTRY AND SPEAK AGAINST WHAT YOU DON'T LIKE. YOU WILL MORE THAN LIKELY END UP JAILED OR EVEN KILLED.


LMAO !!! Never been in France, I deduce.



> *just* give the palestinians a contiguous land mass as their state according to UN SC resolutions and the treaties that Israel has signed on to (Oslo for one). Guarantee the existence of a palestinian state, and help them establish a civil society.



Yeah, "just" is the right word. Just, like in "just disarm Russia" or in "just liberate Iraq". LOL.



> America doesn't have an offically declared language


So what ? Go to a public school and ask what language they teach. You'll be fixed.



> speak your mind, but if you don't like where you live, leave


Jesuitist conception excluding mecreantism from democracy. Very deeplys rooted in US, FR, ITA, UK and GER democracies. Big point.

Finally, I've read the Bomb Iraq song for the third time (already 
received it via mail). Still hilarious too !

As staed by ksv: this discussion is so stupid I can't even make myselft serious engough to participate in an intelligent way  !


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## edX (Feb 11, 2003)

> Of course, since Britain and America are the two main warmongers, it would make sense to organize something there.



actually moveon.org has rallies and marches planned again this sunday. we just had them two weekends ago as well. moveon.org is founded by the people who used to own Berkely Systems - makers of After Dark sreen savers and such. there was a nice big article in today's San Francisco Chronicle about them.

for more on the American net organized anti-war movement, check out moveon.org.


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## doemel (Feb 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Cat _
> *IIRC there is going to be public protest against the war in every major european capital on Saturday 15th of February.*



It'll be enormous! And you can make it even bigger! It will not be limited to Europe, there's rallies on this side of the Atlantic, too. As well as in Asia.

To everybody here in their twenties/early thirties: Remind your parents of what they went on the streets for 30 years ago and bring them along, too!
Even though the American Army can defeat Iraq without any support from other countries (well, I guess the "Poodle" will tag anyway) they would be foolish to do so despite overwhelming international opposition.


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## symphonix (Feb 11, 2003)

There are anti-war rallies in every Australian city at least once or twice a week, now. I will be protesting at the International Air Show, and at the city rally in my town.

I'm not happy that my government is going to war out of fear and anger. I wonder, ten years from now when children ask why we occupied Iraq, what will we tell them? And will we be proud of what we did?

We can only do what we can. I'd urge anybody who feels badly about this war to not be cowed by the hyper-patriots, but to talk to your government representatives about it.


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## Giaguara (Feb 11, 2003)

Here one of the main ministers really licks Bush. So he says openly in the media "all those supporting peace are terrorist". Something that makes even Blair look angelic - and indipendent. Okay - I prefer peace _so_ I am a terrorist? 

They are collecting a lot names towards the war. And doing public manifestations. I don't believe it would change anything even if they would collect 250 millions of signatures of europeans agains war. They are spending their time, Bush wants the war anyway.

[Maybe Iraq should send some super good looking completelly bilinqual Iraqi models to Washington. A something-like-a-Monica-scandal could be funny now]  (Will I now get killed for my opinion? In Argentina people don't desaparecer since a coujple of decades, and in Europe I guess nearly the only way to die for a political opinion is doing it oneself = suic.)


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## ksv (Feb 11, 2003)

A mail I just got 

"Okay ladies, who's up for this patriotic assignment!

As we all know, the Taliban considers it a sin for a man to see
a naked woman who is not his wife.

So, this Saturday at 2:00 PM Central time, all North American
women are asked to walk out of their house completely naked to
help weed out any terrorists. Circling your block for one hour is
recommended for this anti-terrorist effort.

All men are to position themselves in lawn chairs in front of
their house to prove they are not Taliban, and they think it's
okay to see other women nude. This also will show support
for their wives and neighbors.


Since the Taliban also does not approve of alcohol, a cold
six-pack at your side will be further proof of your anti-Taliban
sentiment.

The United States of America appreciates your efforts to root
out
terrorists and applauds your participation.

God bless America!

IT IS YOUR PATRIOTIC DUTY TO PASS THIS ON !"


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## symphonix (Feb 11, 2003)

KSV, kind of reminds me that the reason for the tradition of hanging salami in shop windows in Spain goes back to the Spanish inquisition, and was a way for the people to prove they weren't jews.


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## Stridder44 (Feb 12, 2003)

My god, this might be the most controversial thread on the whole site! LOL


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## edX (Feb 12, 2003)

ah, this is nothing. dig thru the past year in this forum and you'll find several that are much heavier - like abortion and other threads on nationalism. this one is tame and polite so far 

(oh, and let's keep it that way  )


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## kenny (Feb 12, 2003)

have we had one on the death penalty?  


(for the humour-impaired - it's a joke)...


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## toast (Feb 13, 2003)

Flag burning ?
Singing anthems in schools ?
Weapons selling ?


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## doemel (Feb 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by toast _
> *Help us ban Comic Sans: www.bancomicsans.com*



Now that's a noble cause to go on the streets for! Are there any "Ban Comic Sans" rallies planned?


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## BitWit (Feb 13, 2003)

The scary part is when we enter the gray area of patriotic discourse that could be misconstrued as anti-American subversive whatever. The important thing to realize is that national introspection, self-criticism, and world awareness will encourage us all to self-correct our lifestyles or at least perceptions to some degree. Unfortunately, at this time, having those kinds of viewpoints is rarely conducive to gaining enough power to do anything with it. Are you reading this, Steve Jobs?


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## chabig (Feb 13, 2003)

> We are consumers of the rest of the world's resources.



...and producers of most of the world's goods.


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## BitWit (Feb 13, 2003)

I thought that was Mexico and China and Malaysia. :b


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## doemel (Feb 13, 2003)

The goods that you're talking about are primarily targeted at so-called first world countries. People in developing countries can't afford these products anyway.


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## BitWit (Feb 13, 2003)

we definitely produce lots of bad movies, junk food, tobacco products, SUV's.


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## andrewxlt1 (Feb 13, 2003)

I think the diversity makes America an interesting place to live.. i mean come on im a country white boy but i think i would go insane if the entire country was that way... the accent would drive me nuts


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## toast (Feb 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by doemel _
> *Now that's a noble cause to go on the streets for! Are there any "Ban Comic Sans" rallies planned?  *



Of course ! We even obtained agreement from original designer of the font, who works at Microsoft, to start typo classes ! We now have a BCS student fund in the US. The BCS French embassy (which I represent) is building more slowly: www.bancomicsans.fr.st !


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## Cat (Feb 14, 2003)

> We are consumers of the rest of the world's resources.
> 
> 
> > ...and producers of most of the world's goods.



...  involving a lot of pollution ... while refusing to follow international agreements to reduce them, like Kyoto ...


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