# M$ has surrendered to the Blaster worm



## MisterMe (Aug 16, 2003)

This is not a rumor.

According to this Seattle Times article, M$ has shutdown its WindowsUpdate site in order to foil the Blaster worm. According to Netcraft, M$ replaced its Windows 2003 server running IIS with an Akamai Linux server running AkamaiGHost.


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## Jack Hammer (Aug 16, 2003)

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahaahhahahahahaah


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## Reality (Aug 16, 2003)

Hahahaha! It's so sweet.


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## Ricky (Aug 16, 2003)

rofl.  

Microsoft Works is an oxymoron.


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## fryke (Aug 16, 2003)

Well, what exactly would YOU have done, if you knew in advance that a few thousand computers were going to attack your server(s)? Exactly, you'd have let the worm run into a void, just as MS has done. What MS had done is only to step aside while the danger is present. Windows Update will be restored after that.


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## Arden (Aug 16, 2003)

That doesn't change the fact that they screwed up badly with this one.  They still programmed the security hole into Windows, intentionally or not, and now they have to deal with having to fix it across millions of computers.


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## Lycander (Aug 16, 2003)

And Microsoft's answer to their users is: "Reinstall Windows." That's the solution for cleaning up an infected computer, reinstall everything. Buggers. I have a few PCs at home and if they get infected it won't be Windows going on there after I fdisk it.


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## fryke (Aug 16, 2003)

Well, this is not the case. The security hole has been issued. A patch is available. The actual problem is threefold...

1.) Microsoft _is_ a security problem. There are far too many holes in all Windows versions to be found. This shouldn't be like that, but it is.

2.) Microsoft is usually a bit slow in preparing patches. And when they're fast, they screw up big time (happened a few times, patches that opened new holes...).

3.) Microsoft has a trust problem. IT staff doesn't like to install patches just when they come out, because they're afraid to break a working system. That might not be such a big problem for a home user, but if a patch screws up a server (or a dozen) or a multitude of client computers, it's the admin's problem, isn't it.

The solution? Microsoft should become faster in testing patches across more (and different) setups. The goal would be to persuade IT staff to let servers and client machines be automatically updated by Microsoft. This way, you (as an admin) could even stay at home if something like this worm crops up. The patch would be automatically installed and your system would be safe (again).

But this doesn't happen soon.


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## chevy (Aug 16, 2003)

The solution ?

Make the system more ortogonal. It may have less "automatic" features, less integration, but it will be much easier to mange and to update.

If Office does not depend on the version of Windows it is using, if Word does not depend on the version of Explorer that is "integrated" inside Windows, if the firewall does not depend on the version of Windows, if.... then you can upgrade one without killing the other !

And do you do that ?
You define interfaces, documents these and PUBLISH these. And respect your own software design rules.


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## mr. k (Aug 16, 2003)

Well I don't know about windows update very much, but amid all this w32 blaster stuff my dad updated his windows xp system around wensday and so far hasn't been hit with any viruses.  But today I was testing out a web site in IE 6 PC, and a little dialog in the bottom corner popped up saying that windows update had a new update to install...
Maybe it's nothing, I can't really tell with windows, but If the newest patches are installed two days before the server is supposedly taken off-line, and then the morning after it is supposed to be attacked by a huge virus it suddenly tries to get me to update my system - that just made me wonder.  Thank god I can use my mac with it's standards compliant browsers and os X ;^)


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## chevy (Aug 16, 2003)

Good point Mr K.

I had the same instructions on my son's PC... and I updated. And then I ran the antivirus and I had to clean up. But I don't know if the virus came from this install as he is doing what all kids do with PCs: download and installing tons of stupid stuff that he doesn't even have time to use.


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## Pengu (Aug 16, 2003)

This whole thread, and the entire issue it is based on just proves that all those wintel users saying "your mac is sh!t my pc is so much better" really have no idea what they're talking about, doesn't it??


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## chevy (Aug 16, 2003)

Nope, it just addresses the virus preoblem.

Your statement * wintel users saying "your mac is sh!t my pc is so much better" really have no idea what they're talking about, doesn't it?? * may be correct, but that's another question.


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## Reality (Aug 16, 2003)

A friend of mine just got the bug yesterday. He was asking for help. *came to the Mac guy.)  I told him I seen it on the news and Microsoft had some kind of patch on their DL section. He went there and was given this huge 3-4 hour 4 step process in getting rid of the thing. He wasn't a bit happy seeing that since his PC was shutting down randomly. He was just looking for a patch and got that. Luckily a member of another forum posted a real patch to get rid of the thing and he DLed that.  Still as I was helping his look through Microsoft's DL section, I couldn't help but think not all that upgrading is for just one virus.


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## voice- (Aug 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by fryke _
> *1.) Microsoft _is_ a security problem. There are far too many holes in all Windows versions to be found. This shouldn't be like that, but it is.*


Now, what I find weird is that you say there are far too many holes in all Windows versions to be found, yet these virus programmers seem to find and exploit these very holes. Do they know the Windows code better than Windows' creators? Could it be an idea for MS to hire a virus creator or a dozen to look over the Windows code before the release of Longhorn? Just to avoid this...


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## Krisneph (Aug 16, 2003)

My friend of mine got the virus and said it took him 5 min to disable it, but i'm pretty sure he lied. He was like, "Hey did you get the virus ....oh that's right you use a Mac." 

I had a little talk with him, and he's actually considering a Mac for his next computer


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## citizentony (Aug 16, 2003)

Not to stir the pot or anything, but I got the worm. I fixed it by, between the random reboot's, going to Windows Update, selecting the apporiate patch, letting it install, rebooting the machine. I then downloaded the little cleaner that Symantic put out, it found the problem and removed it. It took all of 3-4 minutes. 

Although, in that 3-4 minutes my Mac was doing it's business free and clear, probably laughing at the XP machine.


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## Arden (Aug 17, 2003)

Voice:  The problem is that Microsoft doesn't train their programmers very effectively in security issues, and they have a reactive security system, not a preventive one.  They don't program Windows with the intention of letting bugs through, but they don't check it well enough to keep security holes from popping up, not to mention all the other problems Windows versions have.

Microsoft itself is a virus, for which Apple is a (not extremely effective) antibiotic.

If anyone tells you that Macs suck, drill them and ask why.  If they don't give you a credible answer, then say that doesn't prove anything.  But if they do give you at least factual-seeming reasons, rebut with something the Mac can do.  If you went around saying PC's suck to everyone, they'd be pretty peeved and start ragging on you.  But we Mac users are a higher class than that.


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## MrNivit1 (Aug 17, 2003)

The biggest point I see in the action M$ is taking is that by shutting down its servers, it is admitting (allowing) a hacker/virus producer to achieve his/her goal; disrution of normal computer/network function.  A shutdown like this says to other hackers/virus makers that if you find a hole in M$ software and properly exploit it, you can force big bad M$ to its knees (i.e. force a server shutdown).  This is bad PR on M$'s part... Hints that even the creators of the OS can't find a solution that would prevent such a shut-down...


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## chevy (Aug 17, 2003)

There was no significant disruption of the Microsoft service.

The only problem is that Windows should include an efficient virus fighting architecture, and not suppose that it is the customer's problem to buy an anti-virus from another company (same thing applies for Apple BTW).


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## RacerX (Aug 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by fryke _
> *Well, what exactly would YOU have done, if you knew in advance that a few thousand computers were going to attack your server(s)? Exactly, you'd have let the worm run into a void, just as MS has done. What MS had done is only to step aside while the danger is present. Windows Update will be restored after that. *



First, this is a really good question. I would have kept the site up and added a mirror site so people could still get the stuff they needed. Show that I was big enough to take it on the chin and was still standing after it was done. 

Microsoft's solution show the people that write this stuff can get companies (even as big as Microsoft) to retreat from their associated domain names.

And no, the domain isn't coming back any time soon. The worm is set to attack on the 16th of every month from now on. Microsoft and/or Windows users need to clean this up enough to the point where the number of attacks each month is less than would initiate a DOS situation for that domain name.

The point is, while Microsoft is patting itself on the back for dropping the domain name, they have just made DOS attacks like this one a successful and effective tool for virus/worm writers.


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## ApeintheShell (Aug 17, 2003)

My question is, where are the cool names?
It is great to be able to bring a corporation down to its knee's, but bugbear and blaster are horrible names.

How about name them after characters:
Devastator, Unicron(not unicorn), Nemesis Enforcer, Boomstick(evil dead reference)

It would put fear into an already doomed pc user and shed some light on a worm/virus creator's creativity.

I guess these viruses are not important afterall.


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## Arden (Aug 17, 2003)

How else will Symantec stay in business? 

I don't see why they couldn't move their servers, like to a different IP address or change the appropriate URL's, and redirect the worm's traffic to a nonexistent location.


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## Jason (Aug 18, 2003)

i think its funny that they released a patch for it a month ago and yet everyone still jumps on the "its all MS' fault"

don't act like OSX doesnt have security holes, if it was running on 95% percent of the machines out there we would be feeling every last one of those holes as well.


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## MisterMe (Aug 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Jason _
> *i think its funny that they released a patch for it a month ago and yet everyone still jumps on the "its all MS' fault"
> 
> don't act like OSX doesnt have security holes, if it was running on 95% percent of the machines out there we would be feeling every last one of those holes as well. *


That's the whore's defense: "All those men don't f**k me because I'm a whore, they f**k me because I'm popular." I wouldn't believe it from my girlfriend, and I don't buy it from M$. What is particularly galling about the Blaster worm is that is is a "cut and paste" worm cobbled together from pieces of other malicious code.

The bottomline is that M$ Windows is an enabling technology for malicious code. Before Windows (and to a large degree, M$ Office), such malicious code required the services of skilled programmers. M$ has lowered the barrier to entry to the novice programmer. It is true that all systems have flaws. However, M$ software has orders of magnitude more of them. M$ has also made them orders of magnitude easier to exploit.


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## magpie (Aug 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Krisneph _
> *My friend of mine got the virus and said it took him 5 min to disable it, but i'm pretty sure he lied. He was like, "Hey did you get the virus ....oh that's right you use a Mac."
> 
> I had a little talk with him, and he's actually considering a Mac for his next computer *



Yeah, my bro got the virus too. It took me a little while longer than 5 mins to fix it as his pc kept crashing whilst downloading the windows update patch - and he's on 56k so it was slow anyway. The little symantec patch was good though. I'd installed norton on his machine but he wasnt patched to close the hole. Norton knew it was there but could do nowt about it.


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## Greystroke (Aug 18, 2003)

there was a way to avoid the system shutdown every thirty seconds, it involved going into xp or whichever's console thing and telling it not to shutdown. then you are free to work until the problem is solved...


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## Koelling (Aug 19, 2003)

On the bright side, a new revision of the worm has been circulating that cleans up blaster worm. It's almost like a halmark commercial... virus becoming benevolent and cleaning up after it's kin.


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## Pengu (Aug 19, 2003)

Well, when you hear the hairdresser talking about it while they're cutting your hair, you KNOW this thing is big.


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## hulkaros (Aug 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Jason _
> *i think its funny that they released a patch for it a month ago and yet everyone still jumps on the "its all MS' fault"
> 
> don't act like OSX doesnt have security holes, if it was running on 95% percent of the machines out there we would be feeling every last one of those holes as well. *



Come on Jason! Even IT pros cannot keep up with the patches and updates that M$ throwing out of the Windows Update gates! Still, you want the average Joe to keep up? If you think that all this mess is not M$ fault then... hmmmmm 

No matter how you put it Jason with what if? scenarios Apple isn't at M$'s position... ::ha::

And let's just never forget the billions that M$ is earning each and every year... Instead of making gaming consoles, watches, mice, whatever, they should have produce MORE secure OSes at least in the past 4-5 years if not earlier... 

As of now, OS X is bullet proof compared to Windows... ANY Windows version! Dare to go for a round with Critical Updates from M$ against Security Updates from Apple even for only the past 6 months? What about Viruses? Worms? 

Oh, and Jason, if Apple was in the 95% of the market the computing world would be so much better... If you remember M$ wasn't from the beginning 95%... Even back then when they were 5% or less they produced crap software compared to other companies of that era! Dare to compare Amiga OS, Acorn OS, Atari OS against Windows 1.0?  And that's before we swim into the dark waters of their apps at that time...

M$ is SO unTrusty Computing platform that is damn scary no matter in how many what-if scenarios you may want to indulge us into... 

*Oh, and people here is another interesting reading...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/3154479.stm
*


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## Jason (Aug 20, 2003)

i guess im not an average joe, because by simply checking the update site once a week i kept up rather easily... wow.... what amazement!


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## hulkaros (Aug 20, 2003)

I guess then that you are not! Good for you that your are still get the chance to amaze yourself while using Windows... 

Then again if it was THAT easy then all those millions of Joes would not have the Blaster worked them THAT hard, would they?  

Then again we talk about the Dark Side Joes... 

Oh, and Jason change your user name into The Amazing Jason


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## Arden (Aug 20, 2003)

Microsoft is a very sad company... they are one of the biggest names in the technology industry, yet half of what they make is crap and the other half doesn't work all the time.


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## tsizKEIK (Aug 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by hulkaros _
> *...
> 
> Oh, and Jason, if Apple was in the 95% of the market the computing world would be so much better... If you remember M$ wasn't from the beginning 95%... Even back then when they were 5% or less they produced crap software compared to other companies of that era! Dare to compare Amiga OS, Acorn OS, Atari OS against Windows 1.0?  And that's before we swim into the dark waters of their apps at that time...
> ...




OUCH jason... 
...that gotta hurt


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## evildan (Aug 20, 2003)

Maybe M$ should use an Xserve farm for the task. Seems less likely to get hit with those nasty Windows viruses hitting the net now-a-days.


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## tsizKEIK (Aug 21, 2003)

hey ..
all u PC (windows) users in here.
check this out.
http://news.com.com/2100-1002_3-5066511.html?tag=fd_top 
im sure its quite important. 
go and update ur systems as fast as u can


oh ... but im sure Jason has already done that .. since HE isnt the Average Joe. .. and visits the microsoft update site EVE-RY-DAY  good boy


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## Arden (Aug 21, 2003)

Hey Microsoft, why don't you go all the way and release the actual code that will exploit those security breaches?  I mean, it's bad enough that you're telling us of places that hackers can get in, meaning they'll probably try to exploit it now that they know about it; why not release that code and give the average non-programmer Joe a chance to exploit your stupid flaws too?

Evildan: The problem isn't the servers themselves, it's all the bandwidth they'll have to dish out once the worm makes all the infected computers target Microsoft's site.  Xserve server farms can go down just as easily as any other with enough hits.


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## podmate (Aug 21, 2003)

Since I am forced to have a windoze pc to do some of my work, I decided to patch M$'s latest flaws.  It only took 16!!!! friggin hours to download the 3 patchs and install them.
HA!!!!! 

And we expect our technopeasants to perform this update?!?

Last week was quite funny.  The University that I work for was completely shut down for 1.5 days because of this M$ worm junk.  
I was the only person who could get any work done because I use a Mac.  
I was also the "savior" of the day because I was able to download the patch for M$blast and distribute it to our users.
After the latest Sobig attack, 6 technopeasants hit despite repeated warnings to not open .pif files, my organization is looking at buying more Macs.

I think I see a shiny new G5 in my future


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## Arden (Aug 21, 2003)

Yay!  Hail the conquering hero...

I'm always amazed at how stupid people can be.  Even after being told multiple times not to do something for the sake of their own wellbeing, they do it anyway and end up complaining about it.  You should have told those people to reformat their computers because they didn't listen.


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## gderoover (Aug 23, 2003)

Well I guess we are better off us "Mac" to stay within the 5% of the market so virus programmers can still concentrate into the 95% PC users this is the best antivirus ever. So before you convince someone to switch think twice)
The downside is that sofware developper won't work too much on mac version if the market don't continue to increase.
just a thought.

Giro


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## Arden (Aug 24, 2003)

No, no, keep convincing people to switch.  The more Mac users, the merrier.  We would never be able to convince the vast majority of PC users to switch, so while Apple's market share will remain small, their profits and platform base will grow.


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## theed (Aug 24, 2003)

that whole 95% market share gets 95% of the viruses crap really gets on my nerves.  If you actually look at the history of computing microsoft seemed to go out of their way to re-enable exploits that had been found and fixed in unix 10 years prior.  They don't do anything for security in their fundamental design.  They made executable documents.  They made an e-mail program that automatically runs code if given a specific header.  

Even microsoft admits that windows 95 was built around the idea that everything was going to work and that small problems then quickly caused big problems.  Their code is awful.  What they are currently putting out is much improved over what they had put out before, but that's the installed base.  

Security isn't that hard, but making it easy to use is, and making it marketable is even harder.  microsoft went straight for profits and has never looked back.  They could have tried to make their systems more secure, make the components more refined and the interfaces properly documented and limited.  They didn't.  Everything they do is purely profit driven.  As long as people keep paying for their crap they'll keep producing it.  Don't pay for their crap.

I know, I'm going off and totally ranting but the 95% hypothesis is utter flaming crap.  The fact that I don't have an alternate universe with 95% macintosh usage to compare ours to doesn't mean that I can't extrapolate a reasonable answer.

The best thing we can do for security is to diversify the OS marketplace.  Homogenous systems die catastrophic death from single flaws.  It's a basic evolution thing.  That's why diversity is so important.  Look up anything on biodiversity and learn great deals about the nature of networked systems.  If we had windows, mac, and linux each with a third of the desktop market, virus success rates would be 1 tenth what they are now.

Some days I wonder if I am more properly described as pro-Apple or anti-Microsoft.


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## RacerX (Aug 24, 2003)

Here is a great article.


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## Arden (Aug 25, 2003)

From that post, you sound a lot more anti-Microsoft than pro-Apple.  You mention Microsoft 3 times and Apple none, besides the last sentence.  What I'm wondering is how your arguments _don't_ support the idea that the 95% marketshare gets 95% of the viruses.

It's funny how Windows has 5 steps to activate a firewall, while OS X has only one for each firewall you want to activate: click a check box.  Or, alternatively, push the Start button.

Imagine if someone hacked Microsoft's website (which probably wouldn't be that hard, since I'm sure they use Windows servers) and installed a new "patch" that completely broke Windows.  They could take control of any computer connected to the Internet, or steal all sorts of data.  That would herald very bad for Microsoft if this were perceived as a "critical update."


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## Jason (Aug 25, 2003)

actually i no longer have a pc, but nice try with the facetious comments anyways guys 

its called taking protective measures, sure the average joe doesnt know what the hell he's doing, but it doesnt mean that anyone with a bit of common sense to them cant have a working windows 

and IIRC MS did seem to come out on top in the early OS wars.... dont see a whole lot of amiga around anymore 

in any case, i still think that MS gets an unnecessary bad wrap, its HAS to work with ALL hardware made, plain and simple. It HAS to have absolutely no security flaws. Or other wise, it sucks. Obviously, they are failing both those... its like this:

if you have 1000 people trying to find a way into a house or 1 person trying to find a way into a house, which do you think will be more successful?

anyways, im still one of the few here that is bi-OSexual


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## Cat (Aug 25, 2003)

It's almost, but not quite, entirely unlike that.  If windows fails to do the two things you mention (support all & no security flaws), I think it is simply in the wrong position. By whom was it put there? By its own ambition to make most money possible and by the marketing/brainwashed users. If windows has all of these apparent flaws, then it shouldn't be on millions of desktops. If it endeavours to be on them and if it claims to fullfill your compatibility and security requirements, but in fact fails, then it deserves to be criticised. People pay A LOT of money for the product and also A LOT of money for the service & support: both seem to fall considerably short of the expectations and the claims. Hence the criticism.
If a company who has a budget corresponding to 95% of the market share, cannot make its products secure, then I am filled with awe at the marvellous feats of Apple and open source OSes which have considerably less resources, yet make at least comparable quality OSes (stability, compatibility, security, usability etc.). You should ask yourself what the Linux community or Apple could do with a budget like that of M$... that would be more of a fair comparison. Who is more likely to produce bugs and leaks? 1000 programmers or 1? Who is more likely to fix them? Ok, so now we have windows, well, let's leave the middle-ages and put some double glazing in there!


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## MisterMe (Aug 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RacerX _
> *Here is a great article.  *


Indeed. The author makes it clear that the Mac and Linux markets are plenty large enough for vendors to make money. However, they are not large enough for bad guys to make mischief? M$ Windows and M$ Office to a lesser extent are virus enabling technologies. Look. The whole notion that M$ gets 95% of the viruses because it has 95% of the market is silly and an oughtright lie. M$ Windows has a lot more than 95% of the viruses. Do the math. And what's more, most viruses that infect Macs originate in M$ Office.


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## tsizKEIK (Aug 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Jason _
> *
> if you have 1000 people trying to find a way into a house or 1 person trying to find a way into a house, which do you think will be more successful?
> 
> anyways, im still one of the few here that is bi-OSexual  *



if u have 1000 cameras securing ur house does it really matter if its 1 person or 10000 ?

its common sense that if u have 95 % market share ull be more busy tryin to protect ur ground 

anyways, im still one of many in here that hates microsoft ...

maybe u should read that article that RacerX posted. it will do u good


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## Arden (Aug 25, 2003)

I think that since Microsoft has so much money, and is constantly receiving more (grr! ), most of their so-called "programmers" are really accountants who just sit at a desk and count money, and only 5 or 6 guys really work on programming Windows.  2 of these guys are Uncle Billy and Mr. Developers, and the rest are crackheads.


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## hulkaros (Aug 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Jason _


*and IIRC MS did seem to come out on top in the early OS wars.... dont see a whole lot of amiga around anymore *

This should make you feel at least sad! As for quantity=quality, by now you should have read my signature 

*in any case, i still think that MS gets an unnecessary bad wrap, its HAS to work with ALL hardware made, plain and simple. It HAS to have absolutely no security flaws. Or other wise, it sucks. Obviously, they are failing both those... its like this:

if you have 1000 people trying to find a way into a house or 1 person trying to find a way into a house, which do you think will be more successful?*

If they cannot keep up with the market THEY created in the first place then they should roll over and die! If I cannot support one family I'm not going to marry/divorce 3 times or more! I'm going to stay alone  Not to mention that with M$, people are not trying to find a way into a house... Instead, they already have the keys AND the password of the security system 

*anyways, im still one of the few here that is bi-OSexual  * 

You should become normal: As in you should pair with men or women ONLY, not both and even worst, both at the same time!


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## Arden (Aug 26, 2003)

And stop doing your computer. 

Hulk, about the quantity/quality part:  1000 people trying to break into a home are usually a lot more effective by using brute force than one person making an extraordinary plan.  Sure, the one's method has more quality, but the 1000's's (yeah, something like that) have the quantity.  So I think he agreed with your signature.


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## tsizKEIK (Aug 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by hulkaros _
> *anyways, im still one of the few here that is bi-OSexual  *
> 
> You should become normal: As in you should pair with men or women ONLY, not both and even worst, both at the same time!



ahhahahhahah . hahahaha


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## fryke (Aug 26, 2003)

Have to disagree. Using multiple operating systems at the same time is most definitely completely unlike having sex with both a man and a woman at the same time. Sure, the psychological issues will cause headaches after a while in both cases, but they just have nothing to do with each other apart from that.

Using multiple operating systems is certainly a good thing. First, you learn more about each operating system. You get a differentiated sense of what's good, bad and - more importantly - different about each OS. You'll also find out that you might enjoy doing one task better in one, another task better in the other operating system. It makes you a more complete computer user. If you're a Mac user only, you look like a dork working on a Windows computer. Believe me. I've seen those. You can be all the bad-ass computer crack on Mac OS (X) you want, if you sit down in front of a Linux or Windows computer, your knowledge isn't worth much any longer. Sure, some things are the same, but in any case: Using two (or three) operating systems on your two (or four) computers is helpful for work, play and - most of all - the future.


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## Jason (Aug 26, 2003)

thank you fryke 

i absolutely love using multiple OS's, just for the fact that each one does different things better, and in the end the user becomes more efficient AND more powerful in the work force.

oh well, sue me, i think windows xp is a fine operating system, just gotta be careful how open you leave it to others, and various builds of linux are very nice too (i just have no point using them). and obviously i like OSX


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## tsizKEIK (Aug 26, 2003)

experience and knowledge = power   

its good if u use other OSes.

id like to (and will) use linux one day. and as many versions as possible. suse , redhat etc..

but windows are bad for your health.
theyre built in such a way to make ur life miserable, especially when ur tryin to fix them

and since im not a mazochist..i dont use windows. and i DO THINK XP is a crap os


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## Arden (Aug 26, 2003)

It's funny.  I hate Windows so very, very much, yet I'm much better at it than many people.


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## MrNivit1 (Aug 26, 2003)

There are always shareware alternatives.  If a big company decides not to develop for OS X, and there is a demand, then a shareware or start-up will always step in to meet supply.


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## hulkaros (Aug 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by fryke _
> *Have to disagree. Using multiple operating systems at the same time is most definitely completely unlike having sex with both a man and a woman at the same time. Sure, the psychological issues will cause headaches after a while in both cases, but they just have nothing to do with each other apart from that.
> 
> Using multiple operating systems is certainly a good thing. First, you learn more about each operating system. You get a differentiated sense of what's good, bad and - more importantly - different about each OS. You'll also find out that you might enjoy doing one task better in one, another task better in the other operating system. It makes you a more complete computer user. If you're a Mac user only, you look like a dork working on a Windows computer. Believe me. I've seen those. You can be all the bad-ass computer crack on Mac OS (X) you want, if you sit down in front of a Linux or Windows computer, your knowledge isn't worth much any longer. Sure, some things are the same, but in any case: Using two (or three) operating systems on your two (or four) computers is helpful for work, play and - most of all - the future. *



Guess what? If you shit down and discuss about bi-sexual stuff with such people they will tell you the same things:
Having multiple partners is certainly a good thing. First, you learn more about each human being. You get a differentiated sense of what's good, bad and - more importantly - different about each human being. You'll also find out that you might enjoy doing one task better in one, another task better in the other human being. It makes you a more complete sexual partner. If you're a man sexual partner only, you look like a dork "working" with women. Believe me. I've seen those. You can be all the bad-ass partner crack with men you want, if you sit down in front of a woman or a girl , your knowledge isn't worth much any longer. Sure, some things are the same, but in any case: Having two (or three --or even more) sexual partners on your two (or four) beds is helpful for work, play and - most of all - the future...





*Originally posted by Jason 
thank you fryke

i absolutely love using multiple OS's, just for the fact that each one does different things better, and in the end the user becomes more efficient AND more powerful in the work force.

oh well, sue me, i think windows xp is a fine operating system, just gotta be careful how open you leave it to others, and various builds of linux are very nice too (i just have no point using them). and obviously i like OSX*

I absolutely love using multiple sexual partners, just for the fact that each one does different things better, and in the end any human being becomes more efficient AND more powerful in the "work force".

Oh well, sue me, I think women XP are fine sexual partners, just gotta be careful how open you leave it to others, and various builds of girls are very nice too (i just have no point using them). and obviously I like men...


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## Arden (Aug 27, 2003)

Hulk, wouldn't you use the opposite sex for the OS you prefer, and the same sex for Windows (unless your wired the other way)?  In any case, I think we should get off (no pun intended) on comparing OS's to fking and get back on topic.

What do VPC and MSBlaster have to do with each other, if anything?


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## DJHyp3rion (Aug 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arden _
> *It's funny.  I hate Windows so very, very much, yet I'm much better at it than many people. *



Holy crap. I'm the same way. I was a PC user since my first computer back in 1996, just recently (Dec. 2002) switched to Mac. Ever since I used a Mac in Kindergarten...I just found it so intuitive, so elegant, so easy yet so powerful...I wanted one. I wanted one practically my whole life. But I just HAD to use Windows because "Macs are crap and no one uses them"...well I do. Look at me! Do I look like I got blasted by a stupid worm that propogates through a DANG SHORTCUT TO AN MS-DOS PROGRAM? I always hated Windows...since Win95...I hated it so much I tried Linux...but Linux isn't there yet. No software...It's like, a very nice and stable OS, but there isn't software for the home user in it yet. But Apple punched the Linux community in the balls by unveiling the kind of OS the "Linux-On-The-Desktop" had wet dreams about: Mac OS X. Stability of UNIX. Hell...I like to think of it as Linux, with a kick-ass Mac User Interface. When Mac OS X got done installing on my brand new iBook back in that restaurant in the Philippines...and it asked me for my user account details, I said "Wow. Feels like installing Linux all over again..."..because it was. Linux (UNIX) core...but so very Mac. I just found my new favorite platform. I remember thinking, "Why the hell would I want a Mac? Nothing runs on it!". That was 1995. Fate has a very, very good sense of irony.

And to this date...my Wintel friends still call me up.
"Phil...Windows made this error...it says (insert some crap error here.)"
"Phil...how do I install RAM?!"
"Phil...what's Napster?"
"Phil..." *sigh*...

Then I got an interesting call...
"Phil...can you help me? I'm having a problem with Windows--O wait...you use a *MAC*...ugh...never mind. You don't know anything about Windows." *clik*

...He didn't find any of our friends that could help him. His problem? Opening the case of his computer and adding a CD Burner.
My Response: (insert directions to open case/install CD Burner), If you had a Power Mac G4, you could just pull a lever and the case would open.

"Really?"
"Yes."
"Wow...I wish Microsoft would make one like that..."
My head: MICROSOFT?! They make software!!!

I've never met a stupid Mac user in my life. Not yet, at least.
As for stupid PC users...

--Wait...I got another tech support call...one of my Wintel friends again...


(sorry...got a little carried away... I just noticed that's a big ass post)


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## Satcomer (Aug 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DJHyp3rion _
> *And to this date...my Wintel friends still call me up.
> "Phil...Windows made this error...it says (insert some crap error here.)"
> "Phil...how do I install RAM?!"
> ...




That post just made my day!


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## Arden (Aug 28, 2003)

Mine as well!  And the bigger, the better (even 4 browser pages... thanks Biz Guy!).

The main difference between us:  I've been using a Mac all my computing life, ever since my dad got a IIsi to replace our old Apple II when I was 4 or 5 or 6... I think we still have it too!

I like your quotation, Phil.


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## DJHyp3rion (Aug 28, 2003)

...and to think I'm going today to help one of my friends again. He's a recent Mac switcher (woohoo), he just switched like a week ago...He's working on getting Windows filesharing up on his network...gonna go help him out, then chill at his house for awhile. Last time I went...his Hard Drive in his iBook was named "C". *eyebrow*...some things will never change...

OH  yeah...back on topic. I got a lot of e-mails from people sending me .PIFs...I should download one and open it in TextEdit just to see what kind of code they got going on in there...

I have a Macintosh SE. When my friends are over, they're like "What the hell is that thing?"
So I start it up...maybe even start a game of "Star Roids", or start up MS Word and type up something. And I just love saying this when they're babbling on about how stupid it looks:
"Find me a computer from the year 1987 that will play Star Roids and let me do my homework, and I'll let you talk. Oh yeah, don't forget..." (as I fire up SimpleText and type something and select it...)
The Macintosh says "I can talk."
Usually I'll get a response like "hey, shut up" or something...
One of my other friends...decided to try and be funny. "I can talk too, see!"

BTW, wasn't that a Mac SE that Scotty was trying to talk to in Star Trek V? (I know, I know...sorry...)
OK, OK, On topic. I think Microsoft is doing two things
1) Executing a good plan for surviving a DDoS attack...
2) Proving that Windows' numerous security flaws (yes, flaws. If they weren't flaws, there wouldn't be exploits.) affects the buisiness of everyone...even the mighty Microsoft.

Back Off Topic (Man, I'm on a roll aren't I..)
My friend used to absolutely abhorrently totally fully down to the core of his soul hated Macs. So when I brought my iceBook (plain, old, 'slow', outdated G3) to his house, he was like "Holy Crap...that looks really sleek." I kid you not. 
Me: What, are you being sarcastic?
Him: Hell no...that looks really nice. It has a nice...elegance to it...it's 'smooth'...The only thing wrong with it is that stupid Mac OS that it runs.
*RED ALERT! SUBJECT HAS NOT EXPERIENCED (OMG I SAID EXPERIENCED! lol) Mac OS X!!!*
So I set it down on the table, hit the power button and made him SIT there and watch the whole Mac OS X bootup process and me logging in.
His Comment? "That looks like Windows XP."
Me: OS X came out BEFORE XP, you dork. You think Microsoft's stuff is ORIGINAL?
Him: No...
So I decided to do a little "demo" of minimizing a window...with the ol' Shift-key trick. Slow motion.
Him: WHOAAA is there a utility to do that in windows?
Me: Yeah. It's called buying a Mac.

Next I let him use the OS.
Him: How do you know I won't go delete the system folder?
Me: Because you can't without a password. Mac OS X Protects your computer like that. Whereas I could go and log in to your Dell and cripple it. Go ahead, try.
So he dragged the system folder to the trash. *pop* "The Finder needs your password"
Me: Nice try.
And knowing he's always bragging on about reliability, I told him it's based on UNIX.
Him: But like those main server things on the internet use Linux!
Me: Linux is a UNIX Clone. Like Mac OS X, except suckier.
I proceeded to try and take my iBook back.
Him: No wait...this is cool...hold on.
30 minutes later he was STILL exploring OS X. He kept complaining "But the buttons are on the left side" *sigh*
Me: Deal with it. If you hate a whole computing platform because the buttons are on the left, you're pretty stupid.

After that? His main reason not to switch? Not much AOL updates. well, that's true. I wouldn't know... I don't use it.
He proceeded to ramble on about how his favorite games were "Not on Mac" (Quake 3, UT2003, and Tony Hawk 3. hehehe...I just happened to have those games installed.)
Him: I'm going to get a drink. hold on.
I started up Quake 3 and started playing.
Him: HOLY CRAP is that QUAKE 3? LET ME PLAY!
Me: No, remember? it's not on the mac yet. You're hallucinating...

Ahh....good times. 

(damn...this one was bigger. Well at least it's not, like...10 million little posts.)


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## Cat (Aug 28, 2003)

> Him: WHOAAA is there a utility to do that in windows?
> Me: Yeah. It's called buying a Mac.



That's a good one


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## WinWord10 (Aug 28, 2003)

Linux is suckier than Mac? No way


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## Giaguara (Aug 28, 2003)

I would want to see THIS on a MS site:ù


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## DJHyp3rion (Aug 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by WinWord10 _
> *Linux is suckier than Mac? No way  *


lol. I liked linux because I kept breaking stuff in it...and had to fix it. Got tiring after a while.


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## Arden (Aug 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DJHyp3rion _
> *...and to think I'm going today to help one of my friends again. He's a recent Mac switcher (woohoo), he just switched like a week ago...He's working on getting Windows filesharing up on his network...gonna go help him out, then chill at his house for awhile. Last time I went...his Hard Drive in his iBook was named "C". *eyebrow*...some things will never change...*


 Ah, the plight of the uneducated... (BTW, you can surround "rolleyes" with colons to get .)


> *OH  yeah...back on topic. I got a lot of e-mails from people sending me .PIFs...I should download one and open it in TextEdit just to see what kind of code they got going on in there...*


 LOL!  Go right ahead!  See if the hacker left a digital signature.


> *I have a Macintosh SE. When my friends are over, they're like "What the hell is that thing?"*


 "It's your cat after I kicked it.  What the hell do you think it is?"


> *So I start it up...maybe even start a game of "Star Roids", or start up MS Word and type up something. And I just love saying this when they're babbling on about how stupid it looks:
> "Find me a computer from the year 1987 that will play Star Roids and let me do my homework, and I'll let you talk. Oh yeah, don't forget..." (as I fire up SimpleText and type something and select it...)
> The Macintosh says "I can talk."
> Usually I'll get a response like "hey, shut up" or something...
> One of my other friends...decided to try and be funny. "I can talk too, see!"*


 Your Mac can probably pronounce big words a lot better than your friends.  Do they not realize that speech is built in to a computer from the friggin' _80's_?


> *BTW, wasn't that a Mac SE that Scotty was trying to talk to in Star Trek V? (I know, I know...sorry...)*


 Something like that.


> *OK, OK, On topic. I think Microsoft is doing two things
> 1) Executing a good plan for surviving a DDoS attack...
> 2) Proving that Windows' numerous security flaws (yes, flaws. If they weren't flaws, there wouldn't be exploits.) affects the buisiness of everyone...even the mighty Microsoft.*


 What about proving that they're rather incompetent at what they do because Windows has so many flaws in the first place?  You'd think a company like Microsoft would get it that they have to provide as good built-in security as they can due to the vast range of systems that their OS runs on.


> *Back Off Topic (Man, I'm on a roll aren't I..)*


 Eh, we've had a lot more off-topic heated discussions in other more topic-specific categories than this.


> *My friend used to absolutely abhorrently totally fully down to the core of his soul hated Macs. So when I brought my iceBook (plain, old, 'slow', outdated G3) to his house, he was like "Holy Crap...that looks really sleek." I kid you not.*


Well, duh, that's the whole _point_... Apple makes computers that look cool, run cool and work extremely well.


> * Me: What, are you being sarcastic?
> Him: Hell no...that looks really nice. It has a nice...elegance to it...it's 'smooth'...*


 Like a fly to honey. 


> *The only thing wrong with it is that stupid Mac OS that it runs.
> *RED ALERT! SUBJECT HAS NOT EXPERIENCED (OMG I SAID EXPERIENCED! lol) (Wow!) Mac OS X!!!*
> So I set it down on the table, hit the power button and made him SIT there and watch the whole Mac OS X bootup process and me logging in.
> His Comment? "That looks like Windows XP."*


 No, Windows XP looks like the Mac OS.


> *Me: OS X came out BEFORE XP, you dork. You think Microsoft's stuff is ORIGINAL?
> Him: No...*


 Very astute.  He actually knows something about Microsoft. 


> *So I decided to do a little "demo" of minimizing a window...with the ol' Shift-key trick. Slow motion.*


 I still love this trick... it could be because I don't use MOX regularly.


> *Him: WHOAAA is there a utility to do that in windows?
> Me: Yeah. It's called buying a Mac.*


 LOL!!  I love this line!  One of the funniest I think I've ever read on this board!


> *Next I let him use the OS.
> Him: How do you know I won't go delete the system folder?
> Me: Because you can't without a password. Mac OS X Protects your computer like that. Whereas I could go and log in to your Dell and cripple it. Go ahead, try.
> So he dragged the system folder to the trash. *pop* "The Finder needs your password"*


 Heh...


> *Me: Nice try.
> And knowing he's always bragging on about reliability, I told him it's based on UNIX.
> Him: But like those main server things on the internet use Linux!
> Me: Linux is a UNIX Clone. Like Mac OS X, except suckier.*


 Maybe less elegant, less refined... definitely not suckier.  Remember, there is Half-life for Linux.  Where do you see Half-life for Mac?  (ST00p1d moddafockin' Sierra!  Sorry...)


> *I proceeded to try and take my iBook back.
> Him: No wait...this is cool...hold on.*


 With a Wintel box, he'd probably be like, "Take it.  I hate this thing." 


> *30 minutes later he was STILL exploring OS X. He kept complaining "But the buttons are on the left side" *sigh*
> Me: Deal with it. If you hate a whole computing platform because the buttons are on the left, you're pretty stupid.*


 He really said that?  That's like complaining about a car because the temperature switch and the fan strength switch are switched on the dashboard compared to your own car!  Wow.


> *After that? His main reason not to switch? Not much AOL updates. well, that's true. I wouldn't know... I don't use it.*


 Tell him to ditch GayOL and get a _real_ ISP.  One that won't abuse him.  Like Earthlink.


> *He proceeded to ramble on about how his favorite games were "Not on Mac" (Quake 3, UT2003, and Tony Hawk 3. hehehe...I just happened to have those games installed.)*


 Yeah, neither are Photoshop or MS Office.


> *Him: I'm going to get a drink. hold on.
> I started up Quake 3 and started playing.
> Him: HOLY CRAP is that QUAKE 3? LET ME PLAY!
> Me: No, remember? it's not on the mac yet. You're hallucinating...*


 LOL!  Another great line!


> *Ahh....good times.
> 
> (damn...this one was bigger. Well at least it's not, like...10 million little posts.) *


 Well, as long as it's not a full-out book.

So did you finally get him to switch to Mac?  After all that wowing and proof of compatibility with his favorite pastimes, he has no reason _not_ to switch.


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