# Bush Pisses Me OFF



## Soapvox (Oct 29, 2001)

What a bloddy idiot,  he claims we are all  soldiers, BULLSHIT!!!! I do not support the mass destruction of any  civilization especially when we are the cause of the people we are fighting.  It is horrible what has happened but this man is just as bad as his  father,  I know I am going to get flamed  here but I hope  you   people listen carefully, the laws  that they are  passing   are  taking  away our civil  liberties and in fact making america  exactly what the terrorist want, a nation  in  fear.  Then he talks of invading Iraq, c'mon! We cannot be sheep, murder under any excuse is still murder,  he is trying to make  america into  exactly what  the  terrorist  are!   There  are ways to  take down organizations  with  out  killing   and  starving  millions  of innocents like we  have  been  doing in Iraq  for  the last 10 years.   Cut them off financialy, don't make the  children suffer!   And never claim that I am a soldier in your bloodbath,  I will  continue to protest and never let   up  until the killings and the  actions  that led up to  this  conflict are  stopped! People we do  not  need violence or terrorism to  bring peace, we need open conversation and fair treatment to  bring peace!


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## AdmiralAK (Oct 29, 2001)

Well, I sort of disagree with you, adamantly disagree with you, but I am not gonna flame you.

I think that we cannot really talk with bin laden, or the taliban or whomever.  Why ?  Simple, different mindset, different values, and different mode of operation.  Some of these people can even be certified loonies.  You cant have any meaningful diplomatic solution to this unless both forces stop and agree to stop attrocities.

As for we are the cause of misfortunes abroad, from what I;ve observed, if we, as america, dont intervene people wag their finger at us and say "shame on you america you let this happen!", if we do do something they say "You a-hole!  Why did you get involved!" ... ah scroo that...

As for civil liberties dont wanna lose em and I think that people will fight for them, but of course I am optimistic.

Finally, you say bush is just as bad as his father.  Well his father is probably his role model and probably one of his principal behind the scene advisors, thus it seems normal to me for this to be.



That is my humble opinion,
I am now open to flaming 


Admiral


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## kilowatt (Oct 29, 2001)

Soapvox, these people we are fighting believe as hard as you believe in being passive, that it is their duity to kill Americans.

Just think about that for a minute. 

I've heard you say lots about your believes. And you're pretty hard headed about them (no offence, I use hard headed only to say that you have made your mind up and don't bend much). Well, these people believe in killing Americans just as hard if not harder.

Thats pretty hard.

Also, a seccond point, and I have a follow up question when you answer this (and you may allready know what I will ask, but oh well).

Do you believe there is a distinction between the verb 'to kill' and the verb 'to murder'?

(Oh, and my questions are open to all, so please, post your thoughts!)


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## kilowatt (Oct 29, 2001)

Oh, and remember from Pink Floyd's The Wall:

"United we stand, Divided we fall"


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## RacerX (Oct 29, 2001)

I'm as liberal as the next guy, but there are points that you seem to be missing here, Soapvox. Whether it be by propaganda or not, many of these people would just as soon shoot you than talk. These suffering children are carrying guns. I don't see a lot of innocents in many of these places. 

You seem to believe what they seem to believe. We are the reason they are starving, we are why there is no food. Lets think about this. Where do these people live again? In the middle of a desert! What is their primary crop when they can grow anything... opium? Not to mention that they enslave half their population (how else would you describe their treatment of women?). And less we forget that they can't come together in large groups unless to is to fight a neighboring large group. The ONLY thing that people in that area are good at is hating others! So we are the flavor of the month, tomorrow their next door neighbor, and next week the people of the next town. This is their way of life. 

We did not in any way help to create this other than lending aid. This is the worst thing we do for ANY third world nation. We see people starving so we send them help, which increases the population beyond what their natural resources can support, which leads to more starving. Here is the problem... birth rates. We have rates of 2.3 children per family, and most live to become adults. Third world families have up to 7, and due to environments about 2 live to adulthood. We add aid in the form of medicines and food, and soon all 7 live to adulthood, in two generations, these people can no longer support themselves on the resources that their grandparents lived on easily. Our aid to the "innocents" of these countries is ten times worst than any aid we have ever given to the corrupt leaders. Healthy populations over throw bad leaders, our aid has made them to weak to fight for themselves (and they expect handouts from us now anyways). If there is one thing I have learned from years of watching Star Trek, it is that interference is by far the worst thing we can do.

As for Bush, I was one of the more vocal anti-Bush people (specially for stealing the election), but he is our leader... for better or worse, and I for one will support him right up to the point where I can elect someone else to take his place. I personally feel the news media is doing more harm than good. Fear helps ratings, the media doesn't want us to feel secure any more than the terrorist do. And how nice is it to have reporters do all the intelligence work for the terrorist. You may not remember this from the Gulf war, but Iraq used TV coverage to help with aiming their missiles at Israel. I think Bush knows he is going to get as much of a boost from this war as his father did from the last one. And the media can see that they are going to make as much from this one (if not more) than the last one. Who do you think we should be more worried about?


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## Kristjan (Oct 30, 2001)

Love comes back to you, aggression comes back to you... (© MTV or something).

I just don't get the idea of revenge... No one can win, ever... And this is all about revenge. Not even Bush can think he's gonna win this war. The bombs and the dead children will only create more bin Ladens and Attas. They have already won, let's minimize our (even thogh I'm from Sweden) losses.


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## sithious (Oct 30, 2001)

soapvox, i completely agree with you! killing innocent people is sick and in no way will i ever, ever advocate it.

by "accidentally" bombing hospitals and living quarters the us are proving themselves to be exactly what the terrorists claim they are: imperialist bullies. there are ways of dealing with terrorism that go way beyond simply murdering innocent citizens of a foreign country.

all you pro-war hawks think on this: how would you feel if an american terrorist, say the militia of montana or the kkk or some other group of american loonies were to attack a building, say in russia, and the russians decided that the correct thing to do is to bomb the usa? that is exactly what is happening now. the taliban regime is not a democratically elected government, it is an oppressive regime that makes the citizens of afghanistan suffer. just because this unwelcome dictatorship supports bin laden it doesn't mean innocent afghanis deserve to die! bush's stupidity is causing the opposite of what we should want to achieve: it is making more and more people hate the us. 
how would you feel if your child, your wife, your husband, whoever, got murdered by american bombs because of something somebody else did? the afghanis are suffering enough already. they should be freed from the taliban, not killed, and the same goes for the iraquis. 

in no way can this conflict be compared with ww2, which was justified, as the citizens of the country being attacked did not democratically elect their so-called governments, unlike the germans did in the third reich. these people are victims themselves. where was the us "world police" so far? how has the us tried to help these people? not at all.

the americans are (i'm generalizing, there are many exceptions, but this really pisses me off) a bunch of arrogant wimps who don't care about anybody except themselves. the only time the us gets involved in situations of crisis is when it's own interests are at stake. the us government has done nothing effective about terrorism, and then, when america itself is struck, suddenly the "war on terrorism" is an important subject, suddenly all us citizens rally around the flag and want to end terrorism everywhere.

i guarantee you if it hadn't been new york and washington that been hit but moscow and st.petersburg instead, none of you would really care. none of you would be screaming for blood and vengeance the way you are now. you live in your safe little american bubbles, thinking yourself oh so important, never knowing what is actually going on in the real world outside the states. go out and buy some european/australasian/african newspapers, read some books, find out the facts. 
america is not the center of the universe.

you are being fooled by a man (bush) who's only interest is to glorify himself and distract from the fact that he is an illiterate idiot who wasn't even elected properly and that his instruments of security are not functioning. where was the cia on september 11th?  

racer x, i don't know where you get your information, but it is a proven fact that the us government funded bin laden and his terrorist cohorts throughout the nineties to support their battle against the russians. this just further proves american hipocrisy. it's okay to kill russians if your "battling communism", is it?

WAR IS NOT THE ANSWER!!!!!!!!!!!


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## kilowatt (Oct 30, 2001)

Dude, you're off you're rocker. I have to go to class, but I 'll leave something to mull over.

The people of Afganistan actually do support Usama bin laden. They really do. Even the Packistans support him (the people, not the government).

And its not about revenge, either.


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## sithious (Oct 30, 2001)

... sure dude, and the people of the usa supported nixon. want to get killed for that?
... and the people of the ussr supported breshnew. kill them for that?
... the people of cuba support castro. kill them for that?
... the austrians support haider. kill them for that?

get real, man, killing people is not much of an argument, unless you're the school bully (or a criminal).
i sure as hell do NOT support bin laden, but i don't see how bush killing afghanis is better than bin laden killing americans.
they are humans too, remember?

... but then you probably think the electric chair is a cool idea, don't you? no wonder americans are considered somewhat uncultured over here in europe... *sighs*


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## AdmiralAK (Oct 30, 2001)

Hmmmm...
I;ve got a problem with civilian casualties,
but if those civilians are in support of the taliban and Osama, then eventually it stands to reason that they will pick up arms against us.  I am not saying kill em now, not later, I am just pointing out a fact.  There were some 5000 men that went from pakistan to afghanistan with the sole purpose of joining the jihad against americans.  Personally if I saw a paki going into afghanistan and I asked him "why are you going into AF ? Dont you know its hell in there ?" and he said " I am going to join the jihan against americans" I would kill him then and there, because later on I might not get another chance, and he might to kill me.

As for cubans and castro, castro hasnt done anything recently to threaten our well being, as a matter of fact there are a lot of cuban "exiles" faring well in the USA.

As for this idea of americans being uncoltured... I wonder how well the germans would react to a **** 747 crashing into the bavarian state police, or the gate of berlin, or how the french would react to 2 747s crashing into Notre Dame and Le tour d'eiffel.  I would seriously doubt they would be objectionable (this goes for all european countries).

Personally, this may sound mean, but I WANT Osama to drive a plane into the British parliament, into Notre Dame and the Eiffel tower, into the tower of piza and the colosseum, into the parthenon and constitution square, into the kremlin and into berlin. Lets see the european values then and the french's objections to bombing afghanistan during ramadan.


Admiral

PS: finally another great subject to talk about  (its been a while since the last one  )


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## Soapvox (Oct 30, 2001)

> I'm as liberal as the next guy, but there are points that you seem to be missing here, Soapvox. Whether it be by propaganda or not, many of these people would just as soon shoot you than talk. These suffering children are carrying guns. I don't see a lot of innocents in many of these places.
> 
> You seem to believe what they seem to believe. We are the reason they are starving, we are why there is no food. Lets think about this. Where do these people live again? In the middle of a desert! What is their primary crop when they can grow anything... opium? Not to mention that they enslave half their population (how else would you describe their treatment of women?). And less we forget that they can't come together in large groups unless to is to fight a neighboring large group. The ONLY thing that people in that area are good at is hating others! So we are the flavor of the month, tomorrow their next door neighbor, and next week the people of the next town. This is their way of life.


We need to ask  ourselves  why they hate america so much.  Could Osama binLaden hate  us because we are imperialistic and want to "Christianize" other  nations.  FDR signed  a pact with the Saudi family that  we would protect them from within and without so we could have drilling rights to thier   oil fields, how would you  like it if (this is assuming you are against communist)a bunch of communist came a protected a dictator in the white house so they can  come and take our oil at an unfair price,  that has been  what we've been doing for the past 50 years,  if  we were to  follow our own propoganda then we would also overthrow the Saudi government,  they are just as bad as the others, but we  don't because instead of spending our defense  fund on  finding renewable energy, we choose the cheaper and more harmful saudi oil.  As far as them lkiving in a desert, that does not cause them to hate americans, and  those suffering children are carrying guns because we supplied them those guns.  While I  find the way they treat women abhorent, that is thier religious beliefs and if we were not antagonizing them then we should let them run thier  country  the way they wish,  if we were to go after every country that mistreated people we would be a world police (more so than now) and that is not what America should be, we need to lead by example, show  the women that they can have rights if they  stand up for them, that is what american women and minorities did many years ago.

I  also strongly agree that the media  is way out of hand, they are  blowing this anthrax thing way out of proportion, they should report it but nnot sensationalize it, what about all the things we are bombing, you don't see them going into too much detail on that because that way we can distance ourselves  from the murder and destruction we  are causing.



> Do you believe there is a distinction between the verb 'to kill' and the verb 'to murder'?


(I feel myself walking into a trap here but) No I do not, when you kill another living human for any reason it is murder and I do not buy into an eye for an eye, religion causes alot of  hatred despite all the good they teach.



> Soapvox, these people we are fighting believe as hard as you believe in being passive, that it is their duity to kill Americans.


But again we have to ask the reason why, we can not be sheep and just let  the government  tell  us that they are evil  we need to ask why  and see that it is because our government is a bunch of meddlers  and causes hatred,  people would not ask  us why  we  don't do anything if we don't meddle in other affairs,  we seem to only get involved in revolutions when the soon to be ruler is someone we don't like, but back the revolutions where  the new ruler would be american friendly, that is wrong.

Again I  say the attacks on Sept 11 are horrible, but don't let our machismo and missdirection dwarf the acts the they have  visited upon  us, and let us hope that we have learned from our mistakes from our past!


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## sithious (Oct 30, 2001)

soapvox, i couldn't agree more ...! 

admiral, are you sure you'd kill a pakistani wanting to join the jihad? personally, with your own hands? don't you think this is what is usually refered to as lynch mob justice? obviously, anyone wishing to join what bin laden claims is a jihad (according to muslim laws and the coran it is not, as he has no right whatsoever to declare jihad) is an idiot, but would you seriously attempt to kill him?

as for planes crashing into things in europe, thanks, but we've got enough problems of our own already ... you've been to greece often enough, you should know the situation in cyprus, in macedonia, in the balkans quite generally ... all these situations are comparable, we have had kurdish terrorists blowing up things and demonstrating in germany, but nobody here seriously believes a war against kurdistan (or turkey) is a good idea...

i just feel that the american government considers arabs and asians to be less important than europeans or americans. that's why atom bombs were dropped on japan, not on germany, in my opinion. conflicts with european nations are mostly solved in a non-violent way, at least people try, whereas conflicts with arab nations (lybia, afghanistan, iran, iraq), always lead to americans going into some sort of weird blood frenzy... i may be mistaken, but i feel i detect a bit of racism there, not necessarily on your part (i couldn't believe that of you, admiral), but on behalf of the us government and its subsequent propaganda. 

incidentally, just so i don't make the impression that i'm just bashing the us:
the british and german governments are both in strong support for bush, and being a brit living in germany, i am quite ashamed of this. 

how come bush has issued orders for the cia to eliminate bin laden, instead of putting him on trial? what kind of justice is this? 
i, for my part, have seen no actual proof that bin laden is guilty.
i strongly believe he is, but i also strongly believe in the concept of justice, putting people on trial before a court. 
even the nazis were tried after the war, and many of them got away,many to the states, which is a shameful, sickening fact. 
bin laden is wanted "dead or alive" ... that's like having john wayne for president, it doesn't have anything to do with moral justice. and this from a nation that considers itself christian...
oh well... nothing we can do about it (unless bush is reading these forums...)


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## Soapvox (Oct 30, 2001)

If we DON'T bring him to trial we are not showing the strength of democracy..  Lets not even bring him to trial  in the US, lets put him up on charges just like Milosovic (?sp) is at the Hague.  Lets show these people that even though you hurt us, our principles are still solid and in place!   Great point sithious!


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## sao (Oct 30, 2001)

Soapvox and Sithious...I'm proud of you...

 I couldn't have written it better.

 War begets war...

 Killing brings on more killing...

 Peace will be achived "only" when we really want peace...

 People talk about religion, but nobody wants to put the other "cheek". 

 It is not anymore about "us against them" thing.

 We are all in this together, it's about consiousness, becoming really human.

 We are at the level of graduation, all of us, all humanity...

 If we pass the examination we will grow to a higher level. 

 All the signs till now, show we have very little understanding of the test, 

 too much ignorance, superficiality, egoism. 

 So, when I hear someone like you people speak with the winds of truth,

 I feel a little hope for humanity, still.

 Keep up the good work...


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## sithious (Oct 30, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Soapvox _
> *If we DON'T bring him to trial we are not showing the strength of democracy..  Lets not even bring him to trial  in the US, lets put him up on charges just like Milosovic (?sp) is at the Hague.  Lets show these people that even though you hurt us, our principles are still solid and in place! *



exactly! 

and that brings home one of my points: 
was milosevic assassinated by the cia? did the us government sign a warrant for him 'dead or alive' ? 
that man is as much of a mass murderer as bin laden is. why the different treatment?
is it because he
- is not an arab
- didn't attack new york and washington  ... ??

bin laden must be brought to trial, the oppressive taliban "government" must be removed. 
but let's stick with democratic principles, let's prove our system (democracy) actually is better than their system, not only that we have better weapons, otherwise we will end up being terrorists just like them.


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## AdmiralAK (Oct 30, 2001)

Hmmm..take things one at a time:
WOuld I kill a pakistani wanting to join a jihad,
for wanting no, will is different from pragmatism.
If he DID joing the jihad and was coming after me, or
one of my loved ones, you bet I'd kill him!

I wouldnt necessarilly do it hand to hand since I probably
do NOT have that capability.

Europe has its problems, and I know, but this problem is unlike
any that is there at the moment from my standpoint. I dont know
if the kurda bonbing up there are sponsoded by kurdistan, if they
were I bet that germany would go after them.  The taliban supports
bin laden, that is why we must go after it.

I still think that europe should be plane bombed in order to comprehend.
Not just plane bombed, give em some anthrax or small pox too.

On the racism deal, I dont know about most americans.  I dont associate myself with whackos of the "kkk" type.  I have had and do have middle eastern friends and I have to say that they are great guys.  I have nothing against middle easter people, but I cant really say that abou others in the USA since I do not not know their mindset, and its not like I walk around taking polls about who thinks what.  I only speak for myself.

On the Cowboy Bush deal... just shows that he wasnt really born to be a politician, this wild west analogy just set us off as eccentrics.  But I think he did the right thing with the CIA.  I whole heartedly do not believe Osama deserves a trial.  He deserves a quick and swift death... hmmm no, scratch that, he should be hung and shot like musollini, publically, thus to discourage others from doing such inhumane acts.

We *should* all work together
We *should* all be one big happy world...
but its not the case, and it sucks 
One needs to survive and doing nothing is counter to that goal.


Admiral


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## sithious (Oct 30, 2001)

> _Originally posted by AdmiralAK _
> *Hmmm..take things one at a time:
> WOuld I kill a pakistani wanting to join a jihad,
> for wanting no, will is different from pragmatism.
> ...



admiral, naturally, if someone was hand-to-hand assaulting me or my family, i would defend myself/them. i am not an idiot.
still, we are not talking about defense, we are talking about bombing innocent people (children!).



> _Originally posted by AdmiralAK _
> *
> Europe has its problems, and I know, but this problem is unlike
> any that is there at the moment from my standpoint. I dont know
> ...



that's why we must go after bin laden and the taliban, not the entire population of afghanistan.



> _Originally posted by AdmiralAK _
> *
> I still think that europe should be plane bombed in order to comprehend.
> Not just plane bombed, give em some anthrax or small pox too.*



that, dear admiral, is sick. 
we have had more bombings, wars, terrorists attacks, concentration camps than you've had hot breakfasts.
as i said earlier on: you live in your safe little american bubble. your country has not had a home war since the war of independance. you do not know what you're talking about. believe me, we comprehend what suffering is about. that is why we don't go around bombing nations all over the world all the bloody time.
i am going to assume that you said what you said in the heat of the moment without thinking. i'd be surprised if you really were that sick.




> _Originally posted by AdmiralAK _
> *
> On the racism deal, I dont know about most americans.  I dont associate myself with whackos of the "kkk" type.  I have had and do have middle eastern friends and I have to say that they are great guys.  I have nothing against middle easter people, but I cant really say that abou others in the USA since I do not not know their mindset, and its not like I walk around taking polls about who thinks what.  I only speak for myself.
> *



as i said, i do not believe you are a racist.



> _Originally posted by AdmiralAK _
> *
> On the Cowboy Bush deal... just shows that he wasnt really born to be a politician, this wild west analogy just set us off as eccentrics.  But I think he did the right thing with the CIA.  I whole heartedly do not believe Osama deserves a trial.  He deserves a quick and swift death... hmmm no, scratch that, he should be hung and shot like musollini, publically, thus to discourage others from doing such inhumane acts.*



okay, let's do away with justice altogether. let's just hang and shoot anyone that might be a terrorist. no, let's shoot and hang everyone. admiral, are you going insane? you can't mean that seriously. what you are advocating is lynching.

without justice, democracy means nothing.


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## sao (Oct 30, 2001)

AdmiralAK...please...

 All your writing is centered around, and I quote you...:

 "I can only speak for myself"

 It's not enough... not today... not anymore...

 You need to grow...

 To consider others as yourself too...search for wisdom because it's needed.

 Right now. No more time for playing around with egos.

 We all need to go deeper...

 Be good...


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## sithious (Oct 30, 2001)

sao, how soothing to hear a calm voice amidst all this shouting ...thanks.


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## sao (Oct 30, 2001)

Sithious,

 AdmiralAK is really a good guy...

 Just very young...in age and maturity...

 But he will open up and go deeper with time.

 Just give him time...

 And good advice...from the heart...


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## Soapvox (Oct 30, 2001)

While admiral and I disagree on this point I think he just believes differently than me, no excuse of age or anything, just differently.

Sao is right though I believe in that we can no longer think of ourselves only but need to think of ourselves as all.  The laws we as america pass today that take away our civil rights are going to be moving forward to a New World Order that bush seniors grand plan was.  I think it is scary to think that now all they have to do is say a terrorist sent me an email once (could've been span) so now than can read my email, tap my cell phone and my land line without having to get a grand jury order.  And when bush says that we are all soldiers in his army that sounds an awful lot like religious retohric (?sp) to me and I DO NOT support this war and so I feel embarrased to be american when we have now had two war mongering bushes.  BTW the proverbial final straw that made Osama binLaden go bback to afghanistan is when we invaded kuwait to drive back  Iraq, binLaden thought that the Arab nations should do that but instead to protect our oil intrests we jumped in and commenced killing 500,000 children over the past 10 years, I think I would be pissed to, I am not violent, but I would've been pissed.


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## sithious (Oct 30, 2001)

... absolutely, sao... i know... 

i've always liked the admiral too ... i just wish he didn't want me to be plane bombed and anthraxed...

just as i don't wish for anyone to be bombed or sick or whatever. 
we are all human, none of us should suffer.

fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering, suffering leads to the dark side of the force.


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## RacerX (Oct 30, 2001)

> _Originally posted by sithious _
> *racer x, i don't know where you get your information, but it is a proven fact that the us government funded bin laden and his terrorist cohorts throughout the nineties to support their battle against the russians. this just further proves american hipocrisy. it's okay to kill russians if your "battling communism", is it? *



Wow, I don't remember saying anything along those lines, but now that you have brought it up, lets look at this. We (our government) did NOT fund Bin Laden. Actually Bin Laden was in the business of funding himself, and gave quite a bit of money and resources to the fight against the Soviets (which I might add, is very different from Russia of today). So if anything we were doing the same thing that he was then. Plus the Soviets where attempting to increase their power by annexing nations, were we to just let this happen?

As for where I get my information, the ONLY news we watch in our home comes from PBS (we get two stations), NPR and the BBC. I take anything that AP puts out with a giant block of salt because they like to jazz up stories (and almost all other news programs get their news from AP anyway).

Lets look at your statement about not comparing this to WW2. As I recall the Nazi party band all other parties in the mid to late 30's. This meant that they outlawed all opposition, so that doesn't sound very democratic to me.

How about your statements regarding "american terrorist", I know we would do everything we could to find them, Russia knows we would do everything we could to find them. Infact, Oklahoma was a good example of them fighting back from us trying to end those types of groups. I think you should put more thought into that part of your statement, it seem too emotionally driven.

And as for things happening in other nations, I seem to remember Tian Nan Men Square and the Russian Coup as being major events in my life, even if they were not in your's. It would seem that you are the one guilty of having a short memory for these types of things. My major opposition to Bush in on the missile defense joke he is playing on us and how the Russian are going to react to it (not to mention Europe).

Our selfish nature as a nation is no better or worst than any other nation on this planet. Our selflessness as a nation is unparalleled in the history of the world. No one would ask for our help if they did not believe that we would be willing to give it, and that belief is based on our history as a giving and generous nation. Yes, we often get preoccupied with our own problems, what nation doesn't? But when push comes to shove, guess who must bare the weight of the world. And we do this from experience. Every time we have taken a step back from the world stage, things quickly get out of hand (or don't you remember reading about the League of Nations). And yes we get involved when something is in our national interest, the tick it to try and find something in this world that isn't in our national interest. And is there a nation that acts differently (better) than us? Best of luck finding one.

Soapvox, these people hate. They know nothing else, they just want to hate. They are not following any rime or reason, they just hate. We are what they hate now, but we didn't have to do anything other than be here for them to feel that way. It is ALWAY easier to lead people with hate in their hearts, that is one of the things that you notice in reading history. Hitler was able to get Germans to hate, and that was all he needed.

I find the knee jerk _________ (liberals, conservatives) often miss the true nature of the world. Extreme views based on emotions are more dangerous than anything else. By taking an emotional position (like you are), you have given up on thought and reason. Soapvox, Sithious, your ability to reason through these types of issues is one of the saddest casualties of this conflict.


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## RacerX (Oct 30, 2001)

Don't you think that that is very extreme! I for one know that many European are not as self centered as their government would lead us to believe. America should basically understand that what we do for the rest of the world has to be classified as Kantian in our giving. We give and give, but should NEVER expect anything in return. So we rebuilt Europe, forgave tons of debt, we should never expect them to come to our aid.

Sithious, we had our own civil war 140 years ago, and the war of 1812 against England. Heck, the White House was burned down. We have had war here too.


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## Soapvox (Oct 30, 2001)

> Soapvox, these people hate. They know nothing else, they just want to hate. They are not following any rime or reason, they just hate. We are what they hate now, but we didn't have to do anything other than be here for them to feel that way. It is ALWAY easier to lead people with hate in their hearts, that is one of the things that you notice in reading history. Hitler was able to get Germans to hate, and that was all he needed.
> 
> I find the knee jerk _________ (liberals, conservatives) often miss the true nature of the world. Extreme views based on emotions are more dangerous than anything else. By taking an emotional position (like you are), you have given up on thought and reason. Soapvox, Sithious, your ability to reason through these types of issues is one of the saddest casualties of this conflict.


They have a reason to hate us, because we stick our noses where they don't belong.  I don't see the taliban like nazis, the nazis tried to take over other countries, the taliban while not the government I would choose had a revolt (hey people remember the american revolution) and took over the government, they are not invading anyone,  just governing themselves.  I believe if we had not involved  ourselves in thier conflicts (speaking  in generalities now) and tried to be a world police, they would not like us, but also not hate us like they do today, and guess what with each bombing, you have another child who is going to grow up hating america, so what should we do go wipe out the whole nation, i think not, we need to lead by example and through teaching.  I am not talking from emotions, these are my pacifist beliefs and just because i am against violence and war does not mean i have given up thought and reason, I think on the contrary, instead of flying of the hook and saying lets kill them I am saying lets look at the cause and remedy the situtation.  Please racer, extrapolate a little on why it is sad that sithious and I can reason through  these types of issues, I am a bit confused on what you mean.  

BTW guys I am very glad all of you are participating, I am finding this very theraputic and hope whether you agree or disagree continue to follow this thread, open  Ideas are what this country is about


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## AdmiralAK (Oct 30, 2001)

Let me start off saying that I respect and like all of you here.
Over the course of the past year I have gotten to know you all well (I think).

My wish for a bombed and anthraxed europe is a contrary to my real wish kind of wish (I dont know if that makes sense or not).  Its a wish that I wish never to happen because its something horrible that I dont wish upon anyone.

For the killing children part, let me restate that I do not wish to have women and children casualties.  The only casualties that should be casualties are the jihadeens (is that a real word ? ) that want to see americans dead.  Usually these are grown men, or at least men that we consider in our western though to be of age to make their own decisions.

On the trial issue, again I am not saying suspects should be executed, we are not the taliban that takes its opposition to a soccer field and blows their brains out with an uzi or an AK47.

We know that Osama, and his Al Quida network have *already* done things against the state that is the USA.  This is *not* a suspicion, but a fact.  If not for 911, we should take him in and musollini him for what he did before that.


On the help without payback, I have no problem with that.  I do that with my friends, and dont expect some sort of payback.  I do however expect not to be kicked in the ass, deceived or betrayed by those friends which I helped.  I guess it is some sort of "payback", but it seems only normal.  I dont know.


Now a question... what the heck is "sp" ??  


Admiral
--> thoroughly enjoying this discussion <--


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## sao (Oct 30, 2001)

You write...:

 "us and them, us and them, us and them" and then...

 "us and them, us and them..."

 "cause and effect"..."cause and effect" and the snowball keeps getting bigger and bigger. 

 Did you ever considered or cross your mind that is not about "us and "them"?

 I'ts about all of us, together...

 All humanity...

 All races, all colors, all religions, all countries, all people.

 All together.

 I want to hear from within you some words of unity, understanding and solutions for a brighter future of everybody in this world. Without thinking of "self".

 If not,  the future looks dark...very dark...


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## RacerX (Oct 30, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Soapvox _
> *Please racer, extrapolate a little on why it is sad that sithious and I can reason through these types of issues, I am a bit confused on what you mean.
> *



Mainly because your arguments represent an extreme that has as much anger and hatred as any of the extreme conservative views I've seen. Maybe I'm reading you guys wrong, but you seem spitting mad about this. And you seem bent on demonizing the US without taking into account the nature of these other people.



> *They have a reason to hate us, because we stick our noses where they don't belong.
> *



Lets look at the war against Japan as an example. They ALL hated us with a passion. They where told by their leaders that we would rape their women and children if we won the war. We bombed many of their cities and where the only nation to use atomic weapons during that war. Why did we need to do all that to them? The Philippines is why. Both side suffered massive casualties because of the ground invasion there. Japan would have been worse for both sides if we had tried the same thing. Now fast forward to today. I don't think Japan hates the US now, do you?

I'm all for talking first, but we have already had thousands of casualties, and there were going to be more even if we did nothing. 

Pacifist can't stop people who maintain power though hate and violence. The people of Afghanistan follow leader who can win battles (even if we classify those battles as terrorism) irregardless of WHO the battle is against. We are the biggest (and easiest) target. Like I said, it is easy to lead people with hate in their hearts, specially if you can show them some form of victory.


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## RacerX (Oct 30, 2001)

I'm sorry sao, we live in a causal universe. There are people out there with differing views and motivations. To gloss over that fact would only lead to more conflict. I'm not to sure were you are coming from with the "All races, all colors, all religions, all countries, all people" thing, I didn't think I was talking on anything other than hatred as a motive and factor in controlling large groups. The only solutions can be found by knowing both your own motivations and those of others (for many, knowing their own is the hardest part). 

And the future still looks bright from where I sit.


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## sithious (Oct 30, 2001)

> _Originally posted by RacerX _
> *
> Sithious, we had our own civil war 140 years ago, and the war of 1812 against England. Heck, the White House was burned down. We have had war here too. *



racer x, i know... that's what i said. but consider this: we've got war here right now in the balkans.  all i was saying was let's not pretend that americans know more about this than we do, just because we don't live in new york. we are empathic.
still i must insist: war is NOT the answer.


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## sao (Oct 30, 2001)

RacerX

 Before was just mind...bla...bla...bla...

 So what is your motivation...? please...

 It's interesting you consider "all colors, all races, all religions, all people"...

 a "thing"...

 Now it's going to become not "us and them", but "you and me"

 For a while...


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## sithious (Oct 30, 2001)

> _Originally posted by RacerX _
> *
> 
> Wow, I don't remember saying anything along those lines, but now that you have brought it up, lets look at this. We (our government) did NOT fund Bin Laden. Actually Bin Laden was in the business of funding himself, and gave quite a bit of money and resources to the fight against the Soviets (which I might add, is very different from Russia of today). So if anything we were doing the same thing that he was then. Plus the Soviets where attempting to increase their power by annexing nations, were we to just let this happen?
> *



sorry... even if you don't like it: the cia funded bin laden. this is a fact. he is a millionaire, i know. he still received money and weapons from the cia, as did the taliban. this is a FACT. look it up. it's not as if the cia even pretend it wasn't true. they admit it.




> _Originally posted by RacerX _
> *
> Lets look at your statement about not comparing this to WW2. As I recall the Nazi party band all other parties in the mid to late 30's. This meant that they outlawed all opposition, so that doesn't sound very democratic to me.*



this is true, but it is also true that hitler was democratically elected chancellor (the only party voting against him being the spd). the nazis did indeed enjoy large support amongst the german population. i live in germany. we learn these things at school.



> _Originally posted by RacerX _
> *
> How about your statements regarding "american terrorist", I know we would do everything we could to find them, Russia knows we would do everything we could to find them. Infact, Oklahoma was a good example of them fighting back from us trying to end those types of groups. I think you should put more thought into that part of your statement, it seem too emotionally driven.*



yes, but would you agree to russia bombing the states? that was what i asked.



> _Originally posted by RacerX _
> *And as for things happening in other nations, I seem to remember Tian Nan Men Square and the Russian Coup as being major events in my life, even if they were not in your's. It would seem that you are the one guilty of having a short memory for these types of things. My major opposition to Bush in on the missile defense joke he is playing on us and how the Russian are going to react to it (not to mention Europe).*



no, you misunderstood me there. sure those events might have been big in your life, same as september 11th was an enormous shock to me... you are an intelligent person, so you feel this stuff... i said i was generalizing, and i sure didn't mean you personally ...
but did the us government get involved? no.





> _Originally posted by RacerX _
> *Soapvox, these people hate. They know nothing else, they just want to hate. They are not following any rime or reason, they just hate. We are what they hate now, but we didn't have to do anything other than be here for them to feel that way. It is ALWAY easier to lead people with hate in their hearts, that is one of the things that you notice in reading history. Hitler was able to get Germans to hate, and that was all he needed.*



and it's always easier to assume others hate us for no reason.



> _Originally posted by RacerX _
> [B
> I find the knee jerk _________ (liberals, conservatives) often miss the true nature of the world. Extreme views based on emotions are more dangerous than anything else. By taking an emotional position (like you are), you have given up on thought and reason. Soapvox, Sithious, your ability to reason through these types of issues is one of the saddest casualties of this conflict. [/B]



hang on, dude, we are the ones saying let's stay calm and reasonable. you are the one getting emotional. obviously i get emotional during discussions like this, but i never want to fight anyone. i want to talk, i want to reason, i want calm, collected, logical sense, even if my counterpart is being illogical, as the taliban are.
i doubt that saying "don't kill people" can be considered an extremist position.


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## sithious (Oct 30, 2001)

> _Originally posted by RacerX _
> *Don't you think that that is very extreme! I for one know that many European are not as self centered as their government would lead us to believe. America should basically understand that what we do for the rest of the world has to be classified as Kantian in our giving. We give and give, but should NEVER expect anything in return. So we rebuilt Europe, forgave tons of debt, we should never expect them to come to our aid.
> *



Don't you think that that is very extreme! I for one know that many Americans are not as self centered as their government would lead us to believe. Europe should basically understand that what we do for the rest of the world has to be classified as Kantian in our giving. We give and give, but should NEVER expect anything in return. So we discovered America, invented modern civilization, we should never have  to come to their aid.

shocked?
don't you see the americacentricity is as stupid as eurocentricity? we all live on one planet, we must all stick together.
stop being so proud of stuff you never did. you didn't rebuild anything, you weren't even born then, man.

racer x, i am not spitting with anger. i am merely extremely sad for people who suffer innocently and annoyed with your stubbornness.
try not thinking abstractly. imagine genuine human suffering. try to feel their pain too. innocent victims on both sides, but two wrongs can never make a right.

sorry about the double post...  gotta get my thoughts more organized...


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## Soapvox (Oct 30, 2001)

> Mainly because your arguments represent an extreme that has as much anger and hatred as any of the extreme conservative views I've seen. Maybe I'm reading you guys wrong, but you seem spitting mad about this. And you seem bent on demonizing the US without taking into account the nature of these other people.


I feel no anger or hatred towards you, the cause that you stand for or for anyone else.  Hatred is what causes violence, I do not have anger or hatred or even mad(anymore) about this issue.   I don't  hate bush, I just think he is a moron and should not be the "leader of the free world", but he is and unless we speak out and let our voices be heard, and right now I know I am in the minority, things will not have checks and balances.  I am not demonizing the US I am trying to point to the past so we may learn from it and don't  leave this as an open  ended war.  If things continue to go the way they are do you see an end short of complete genocide of a race (either thiers or ours), no because war begets war. I myself (and I think  sithious and sao corect me if I am wrong) feel this way  out of  love for human life and hold nothing more sacred.  The US is no longer a government for the people by  the people, so we need to stand up against things we feel strongly  against (or for) so we do not become an Aristocracy, which is what we pretty much are now, we vote for one of two rich white guys, and guess what that does not represent our people, so when terrible things happen we as americans all too easily let them decide for us what we are going to do, because it is easier to blame them when they are out of office, than to stand up and do our civicc duty and let them know how we feel now, and let them represent us responsibly.  We are no longer one nation, we are a world with many  differences, but one common goal, to live in peace and happiness.   I find it hard to believe that all afghans hate americans, thats like saying because the KKK is a christian sect (and it is) that all christians hate blacks and jews, that is just not the case.  I believe that killing for any reason is murder and if I stay silent then when I die, my life would not have moved the story forward and would have been a waste of carbon.

BTW admiral (?sp) mean I suck at spelling


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## sithious (Oct 30, 2001)

... soapvox, maybe i should let you organize my thoughts! you've got it in a nutshell. i agree completely.


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## RacerX (Oct 30, 2001)

> _Originally posted by sithious _
> *sorry... even if you don't like it: the cia funded bin laden. this is a fact. he is a millionaire, i know. he still received money and weapons from the cia, as did the taliban. this is a FACT. look it up. it's not as if the cia even pretend it wasn't true. they admit it.*



It may seem like semantics to you, but they only admitted to funding the same originizations as Bin Laden. There is a difference (though not much).



> *yes, but would you agree to russia bombing the states? that was what i asked.*



The question is pointless because Russia would ask for our help and we would give it. You are trying to make a point based on flawed logic, therefore you have no point to make.



> *no, you misunderstood me there. sure those events might have been big in your life, same as september 11th was an enormous shock to me... you are an intelligent person, so you feel this stuff... i said i was generalizing, and i sure didn't mean you personally ...
> but did the us government get involved? no.*



Actually, yes... look it up. 



> *and it's always easier to assume others hate us for no reason.*



Why do the different factions there hate each other? Your missing the point. People with little hope need something to keep going... that something is hate (blind and pure).



> *hang on, dude, we are the ones saying let's stay calm and reasonable. you are the one getting emotional...*



Really? Doesn't feel like it from here. I don't have any reason to be. I'm not mad or upset about any of this. It is just the way things are. Sorry you can't see that.




> *...obviously i get emotional during discussions like this, but i never want to fight anyone. i want to talk, i want to reason, i want calm, collected, logical sense, even if my counterpart is being illogical, as the taliban are.
> i doubt that saying "don't kill people" can be considered an extremist position.*



I'm sorry, but you didn't think that your statement "a bunch of arrogant wimps who don't care about anybody except themselves" extreme. Boy, I would hate to see your version of extreme then.



> *Don't you think that that is very extreme! I for one know that many Americans are not as self centered as their government would lead us to believe. Europe should basically understand that what we do for the rest of the world has to be classified as Kantian in our giving. We give and give, but should NEVER expect anything in return. So we discovered America, invented modern civilization, we should never have to come to their aid.*



My characterisation was correct, your attempt was... lets just call it funny. 



> *shocked?*



Not really.



> *don't you see the americacentricity is as stupid as eurocentricity? we all live on one planet, we must all stick together.
> stop being so proud of stuff you never did. you didn't rebuild anything, you weren't even born then, man.*



All of this is on going (are you getting emotional again?), and yes we (this nation which included my family) did save Europe. And continue to send aid  and protects today (you most likely don't live to far from one of our bases). It is sad that you would work so hard to play down the role of the US, it is hard for me not to see bias there.



> *racer x, i am not spitting with anger. i am merely extremely sad for people who suffer innocently and annoyed with your stubbornness.
> try not thinking abstractly. imagine genuine human suffering. try to feel their pain too. innocent victims on both sides, but two wrongs can never make a right.*



You assume to know things about me that you can't know. I have held a dying mans head in my lap after a gang had beaten it wide open. I've been shot at more than a few times. I know what pain and suffering is all to well. Avoid it if you can, do it if you must, war is a fact of life.


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## Soapvox (Oct 30, 2001)

> You assume to know things about me that you can't know. I have held a dying mans head in my lap after a gang had beaten it wide open. I've been shot at more than a few times. I know what pain and suffering is all to well. Avoid it if you can, do it if you must, war is a fact of life.


I am not assuming anything about you, you pulled two different posts together to quote me (and I think the last half is not mine), as for the gang scenario,  I think you are assuming, I was a homeless kid on the streets of Phoenix,  joined a gang, fought and thank whomever never killed anyone, that is one of the reasons I am the way I am, I had friends die in drive bys and have a scar on my knee where I was grazed, it made me realize all that much  more that violence begets violence and only  through education and peace can peace thrive. 





> People with little hope need something to keep going... that something is hate (blind and pure).


I find that hard to believe, there are many people all over the world that have little hope and they  do not grasp onto  hatred, the grab onto faith and follow a peaceful route(look at ghandi) and I think that saying all afghans hate americans is a gross generalization (I am sorry if that was taken out of context).


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## RacerX (Oct 30, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Soapvox _
> *I feel no anger or hatred towards you, the cause that you stand for or for anyone else.*



I would hope not, I don't even think I was implying that you hated me.



> *Hatred is what causes violence, I do not have anger or hatred or even mad(anymore) about this issue.*



But you used the words "pissing me off", didn't you? That is a strong emotional statement in and of itself. It is the title of this thread no less.



> * I am not demonizing the US I am trying to point to the past so we may learn from it and don't leave this as an open ended war. If things continue to go the way they are do you see an end short of complete genocide of a race (either thiers or ours), no because war begets war.*



As in my example of Japan, it can lead to peace and friendship. It has happened before.



> *I myself (and I think sithious and sao corect me if I am wrong) feel this way out of love for human life and hold nothing more sacred.*



And I don't? If you can actually show a better way... that works, I would love to hear it. I won't let my dislike of Bush cloud the situation. I want him out as much as the next guy (and I don't think Gore, a public servant most of his life, is rich).



> * I believe that killing for any reason is murder and if I stay silent then when I die, my life would not have moved the story forward and would have been a waste of carbon.*



You don't save many lives that way though. Just thought I would point that out.


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## sithious (Oct 30, 2001)

> _Originally posted by RacerX _
> *
> 
> It may seem like semantics to you, but they only admitted to funding the same originizations as Bin Laden. There is a difference (though not much).
> *



it does seem like semantics to me, and i read differently. maybe the newspapers i read are badly informed, who knows? 



> _Originally posted by RacerX _
> *
> The question is pointless because Russia would ask for our help and we would give it. You are trying to make a point based on flawed logic, therefore you have no point to make.
> *



i am trying to make a point based maybe on a bad example. claiming my logic is flawed is rather arrogant. 
different example (purely hypothetic):
german terrorists (the baader- meinhof gang/RAF) blow up an american building. does the us bomb germany? no. 
do the germans put the terrorists on trial? yes. in germany. not in the states. 
after proof that it was indeed them has been delivered.
do they simply have them executed by the secret service? no.
did bush deliver this proof to the taliban when they offered to give up bin laden upon seeing proof? 
no, he did not. why? because he is arrogant. maybe he has proof, maybe he doesn't. i don't know, and neither do you.



> _Originally posted by RacerX _
> *
> Actually, yes... look it up. *



the us declared war on china? i think not.




> _Originally posted by RacerX _
> *
> Why do the different factions there hate each other? Your missing the point. People with little hope need something to keep going... that something is hate (blind and pure).*



how do you know so much about these people? i know very little of them, i have never been there, i have never spoken to them. have you?
why do they have so little hope when we have so much? they could probably feed whole families for years on the money we spend on macs.



> _Originally posted by RacerX _
> *
> Really? Doesn't feel like it from here. I don't have any reason to be. I'm not mad or upset about any of this. It is just the way things are. Sorry you can't see that.*



point taken, if you say you're not emotional i'll just have to believe you. do me favour and believe me too.




> _Originally posted by RacerX _
> *
> I'm sorry, but you didn't think that your statement "a bunch of arrogant wimps who don't care about anybody except themselves" extreme. Boy, I would hate to see your version of extreme then.*



you probably wouldn't. my version of extreme is not cussing and swearing on a forum. my version of extreme is war. killing. bloodshed. death. you are advocating my version of extreme. sticks and stones may break your bones, but words ... blah blah blah.




> _Originally posted by RacerX _
> *
> My characterisation was correct, your attempt was... lets just call it funny. *



glad you thought it was funny ... i laughed too. unfortunately i found yours rather arrogantly patronising.




> _Originally posted by RacerX _
> *
> Not really.*



me neither.




> _Originally posted by RacerX _
> *
> All of this is on going (are you getting emotional again?), and yes we (this nation which included my family) did save Europe. And continue to send aid  and protects today (you most likely don't live to far from one of our bases). It is sad that you would work so hard to play down the role of the US, it is hard for me not to see bias there.
> *



... er, no i'm not getting emotional again. (even though i don't see what would be wrong with it if i was)... see above. if i'm supposed to believe you, you'll have to believe me. anything else would be patronising.(once more)
and sorry, no, you didn't save europe, neither you nor your family nor the great nation it belongs to. 
you helped save europe.
there were other nations involved, in case you forgot. it is sad that you work so hard to play up the role of the us, it is hard not to see arrogance there. don't play down the role of the british and the russians, please. and don't forget hitler also lost the war due to his own arrogance and stupidity, not only because of the "superiority" of his opponents.




> _Originally posted by RacerX _
> *
> You assume to know things about me that you can't know. I have held a dying mans head in my lap after a gang had beaten it wide open. I've been shot at more than a few times. I know what pain and suffering is all to well. Avoid it if you can, do it if you must, war is a fact of life. *



yeah, well don't we all do that every now and then? i assume too much about you, you assume too much about me. we're humans. we do this kind of stuff. 
it is sad that you have had to experience the awful situations you describe. 
why would you want to inflict them on other people? is it not enough for you to have suffered that way? why is violence everywhere in the us? i don't know anybody that's ever been shot at, and boy, am i glad about that. i want to live in peace.

and so peace to all mankind.


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## RacerX (Oct 30, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Soapvox _
> *I am not assuming anything about you, you pulled two different posts together to quote me (and I think the last half is not mine), as for the gang scenario, I think you are assuming, I was a homeless kid on the streets of Phoenix, joined a gang, fought and thank whomever never killed anyone, that is one of the reasons I am the way I am, I had friends die in drive bys and have a scar on my knee where I was grazed, it made me realize all that much more that violence begets violence and only through education and peace can peace thrive.*



I made NO assumption about you. But I would point out that you would only assume that people who are arguing your side of this have "love for human life and hold nothing more sacred", that would be presumptuous don't you think?



> *I find that hard to believe, there are many people all over the world that have little hope and they do not grasp onto hatred, the grab onto faith and follow a peaceful route(look at ghandi) and I think that saying all afghans hate americans is a gross generalization (I am sorry if that was taken out of context).*



You shouldn't read in things that are not there (it leave you arguing with yourself). I have at many points said that we are simply the flavor of the month. They fight with each other all the time. As for the teachings of Ghandi, remember that he was very aware of the people (the British) he was working to gain independence from. As I recall, he had a law degree didn't he? And lets look at the nuclear power the his nation has become.


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## Soapvox (Oct 30, 2001)

> But you used the words "pissing me off", didn't you? That is a strong emotional statement in and of itself. It is the title of this thread no less.


Thats why i said I wasn't mad(anymore).  When bush claimed all americans were soldiers in his army that pissed me off, so instead of getting violent, I started a conversation, the one we have here.

As for why you believe what you believe I claim to know no reason why thats why I spoke for myself and was assuming for sithious and sao, I think you misunderstood my death comment, what  I mean is that I don't beilieve in murder, but I also don't believe in being silent, if I stay silent then why  I die, my life was a waste (to me) so I start conversations like these even if it is not popular.  I hope we are not getting off the point and heading towards just replying to eachothers comments.


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## sithious (Oct 30, 2001)

... i guess you're right again, soapvox. replying to the finer points in each others posts isn't really going to help this conversation much.
i mean, this is not about who won ww2, who saved or didn't save europe, who does/did this or that. the question is:
can killing be sanctionized by nations? is killing the answer to far deeper political problems?
is a war going to bring enough peace to a troubled region to make us safe from further terrorist attacks?

some of us (i am assuming this includes soapvox and sao along with me) feel that killing is always wrong, is in fact, always murder.
others believe that this war is going to bring us peace in the long run.
what i don't see is how this is supposed to work. one last reference to ww2: here "all" that was necessary was to defeat one centralized dictatorship. after the fall of the third reich, peace ensued (more or less, discounting the cold war and events in "third world" countries).
in this war we are dealing with an extremely diffuse amalgamation of people from all sorts of nations and all sorts of runs of life. bin laden is a multi-millionaire saudi, the pakistanis joining the taliban are extremely poor. there are people in muslim countries all around the world getting agitated. how is a war going to solve this problem in the long run? doesn't it make more sense to employ diplomacy instead of violence?
racer x, do you believe the war is going to end all this? what are your diplomatic propositions?


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## RacerX (Oct 30, 2001)

> _Originally posted by sithious _
> *i am trying to make a point based maybe on a bad example. claiming my logic is flawed is rather arrogant.*



It wasn't meant to be, but you were trying to lead me into an answer that would not match the situation.



> *different example (purely hypothetic):
> german terrorists (the baader- meinhof gang/RAF) blow up an american building. does the us bomb germany? no.
> do the germans put the terrorists on trial? yes. in germany. not in the states.
> after proof that it was indeed them has been delivered.
> ...



We have an extradition treaty with Germany as I recall. Yes, they would turn them over.




> *the us declared war on china? i think not.*



War, no, but you said "get involved", yes we did. Again, look it up.




> *how do you know so much about these people? i know very little of them, i have never been there, i have never spoken to them. have you?
> why do they have so little hope when we have so much? they could probably feed whole families for years on the money we spend on macs.*



Besides the fact that I wanted to know why many of my friends missed the Games in 1980 (and most didn't make into the 1984 Games), I also know personally many people from that region (the best man at my wedding was Iranian). I have an interest in both sides, people I care dearly for. As for feeding the poor, read my first post again.



> *point taken, if you say you're not emotional i'll just have to believe you. do me favour and believe me too.*



Sounds good to me.



> *you probably wouldn't. my version of extreme is not cussing and swearing on a forum. my version of extreme is war. killing. bloodshed. death. you are advocating my version of extreme. sticks and stones may break your bones, but words ... blah blah blah.*



Still, a civil argument is more productive that one the breaks down... don't you think?



> *glad you thought it was funny ... i laughed too. unfortunately i found yours rather arrogantly patronising.*



But it is accurate, none the less. We expect nothing from Europe, Europe has asked a lot of us. These are the facts. Like them or not. Sorry.




> *and sorry, no, you didn't save europe, neither you nor your family nor the great nation it belongs to.
> you helped save europe.
> there were other nations involved, in case you forgot. it is sad that you work so hard to play up the role of the us, it is hard not to see arrogance there. don't play down the role of the british and the russians, please. and don't forget hitler also lost the war due to his own arrogance and stupidity, not only because of the "superiority" of his opponents.*



Who made the planes that the British used? My grandfather did. Like it or not, the US was the turning point in the war in Europe. I don't know what they teach you there, but from 36-41 things couldn't have gotten much worse. I'm embarrassed that we took so long to enter the war. And please, the Soviets only kept germany in pieces for half a century.




> *it is sad that you have had to experience the awful situations you describe.
> why would you want to inflict them on other people? is it not enough for you to have suffered that way? why is violence everywhere in the us? i don't know anybody that's ever been shot at, and boy, am i glad about that. i want to live in peace.*



I don't, situations that let to this type of conflict should be avoided at ALMOST all cost. This is one of the time when the cost is just to high for everyone involved.


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## RacerX (Oct 30, 2001)

The facts are the facts, and things are the way they are. Is war the answer here... yes and no. Is giving a ton of aid to these people the answer... NO. I personally feel that in the short run this would work. In the long run the attacks against the finances is going to do the most good. This is very much like the war against piracy of more than a century ago (I don't expect anyone to remember that). Basicly the nations of the world united and collectively said NO MORE. Places like Libya where attacked for giving pirates a base of operation. History is VERY important. Few things today are that different from the past. We can see what the out come of this is going to be. It is not that hard.


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## sithious (Oct 30, 2001)

what i was asking is how do you think this war is going to bring peace to the world when we are not dealing with one person or one nation but many people from different nations. killing bin laden won't do anything politically. others will take his place.
how is bombing afghanistan going to convince afghanis pakistanis, iraqis etc. that europe and america are not the enemy?
how are we going to get them to see that democracy is better than religious autocracy?

by the way, i wasn't asking whether you know any arabs or asians... i know many arabs and asians too. nowadays, in a globalized world, one knows people from all over the globe. what i meant is have you been to afghanistan and seen the actual situation there? i certainly haven't, so i don't want to judge people who live there based on my western assumptions.

in the long run my point is that i don't believe violence to be the answer to political problems. this is the mistake bin laden has made, believing violence to be an answer. i feel that by retaliating through violence we are lowering ourselves to his level of thinking. we should prove that there is no conflict between islam and democracy, between east and west. we all have the same interests: we all want to live in peace and happiness, no matter where we are what we believe. maybe i assume too much, but isn't it better to assume than to become cold and cynical like bush?

the koran states that he who kills one person kills all humanity. i agree.


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## RacerX (Oct 30, 2001)

See the problems that we are having here are communication. You asked "how do you know so much about these people? i know very little of them, i have never been there, i have never spoken to them. have you?", and I gave you a complete and full answer. You then say "by the way, i wasn't asking whether you know any arabs or asians... i know many arabs and asians too.", but my answer is no less valid. Why the change? it doesn't strengthen your position any (that I can see). With a record of everything that has been said, why the need to change a direct question after a complete answer? It was like you asked the question about the "US government get involved", how did that become going to war?

Honestly, that is why I said I believed that you are running off emotion in this case (more than the tone). I, while responding to two different people, didn't feel the need to reword something once it has been answered. I know this is off subject, but I'm just curious how other people think when arguing a point.

As for peace, trying to get them to be like us in ANY form (government, religious, or other wise) isn't going to help. We let them have their own path, we follow and protect ours. If they want to join the community of nations, great. If not, great. As I have said before, we interfere to much in other peoples affairs. We stop our problem (them harboring terrorist), and let them solve the rest on their own. When no nation is safe for terrorist, then the "war" part of the war on terrorism is over. It becomes a job for the collective intelligence community to deal with. I'm not sure which part of this is so hard to understand. Afganistan only needed to make that area unwelcome to terrorist to avoid all this. Is isn't very deep stuff, it could have been over in a couple days. Now it is not. The war on piracy is not that different, you guys would get a lot from reading up on it.


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## AdmiralAK (Oct 30, 2001)

-- marker post --

This thread really took off while I was in class (and what a long class it was, got a A in my midterm though.

Quite an interesting development, my brain is not working due to fatigue so I  will reply tomorrow

Just ignore this post, its a marker



admiral


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## sao (Oct 31, 2001)

Most of your writing comes out as "I will show them how much I know..."

 Well, yes...you can write well your own thoughts... 

 You know who you are...

 But, can you, just for one moment,  forget "yourself"...

 You will be amazed at the possibilities of life. 

 But I understand...Self rightiousness keeps you "busy"...

 And you will answer this post again... 

 trying to demostrate how much you know...

 RacerX, do you know what I'm talking about?

 Wow! man, what a busy life...

  Yes, Soapbox and Sithiuos, I agree...

 Life is precious and an incredible miracle...

 Let's all enjoy in unity and make a bridge to the future...


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## sithious (Oct 31, 2001)

> _Originally posted by RacerX _
> *See the problems that we are having here are communication. You asked "how do you know so much about these people? i know very little of them, i have never been there, i have never spoken to them. have you?", and I gave you a complete and full answer. You then say "by the way, i wasn't asking whether you know any arabs or asians... i know many arabs and asians too.", but my answer is no less valid. Why the change? it doesn't strengthen your position any (that I can see). With a record of everything that has been said, why the need to change a direct question after a complete answer? It was like you asked the question about the "US government get involved", how did that become going to war? *



racer x, *read* what you are quoting. how do you know so much about these people? you still haven't answered, even though you claim your reply was valid. how do you know so much about these people? who are we talking about? the taliban and bin laden, the people of afghanistan. you proceed to tell me that you know many arabs and asians. that was not the question. that's as if you asked how i know so much about you and i replied that i know many americans. well, i know *nothing* about you even though i know many americans, and you obviously know as little about afghanistan as we all do.

when i asked about the us government getting involved in china, it was obvious to you that i was speaking of war, not of diplomacy. 

the only reason i felt for rewording my questions is because YOU *pretend* not to understand them properly.

you have twisted around everything that everyone else says to fit into your view of the world. you have attempted to blind us with history by stating your own theories as historic fact.
you are merely interested in being right. 

all along you have been *patronising* and *pedantic* and *arrogant* and quite honestly i can't be bothered anymore. you sure know how to kill a discussion, racer x. terribly sorry i ever dared to differ from your great and valid opinion.
god bless america!


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## sao (Oct 31, 2001)

As I have been myself born under the star of "stupidity",

 I feel proud and lucky to carry the flag.

 Sithious, you see...

 RacerX is smart, intelligent, he was not so lucky...

 So we can learn from him...

 He is actually a good teacher of things that shoudn't be done.

 Yes, one of the best...

 I personally learned and became inspired by the windmill of his mind.

 So, thanks RacerX...

 May your mind always guide your soul...

 All the best...


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## AdmiralAK (Oct 31, 2001)

AM I the onlu one that doesn follow sao's logic ?
I mean initially I did, but you are just commenting,
you dont really give any facts (whether true or untrue)...

Admiral
PS: Dont let this thread degenerate to personal attacks.


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## sao (Oct 31, 2001)

Facts: In previous post...

 "War begets war... 

 Killing brings on more killing... 

 Peace will be achived "only" when we really want peace... 

 People talk about religion, but nobody wants to put the other "cheek". 

 It is not anymore about "us against them" thing. 

 We are all in this together, it's about consiousness, becoming really human. 

 We are at the level of graduation, all of us, all humanity... 

 If we pass the examination we will grow to a higher level. 

 All the signs till now, show we have very little understanding of the test, 

 too much ignorance, superficiality, egoism."

*What is it that you didn't understand AdmiralAK?* 

 (Please read it again...slowly...digest it...don't you feel it...it's everywhere)

 Logic: 

 Well, if you only use logic to try to understand life you probably wouldn't understand that "you can never cross the same river twice" (Heraclitus)

 For me it sounds completely insane, dangerous and superficial when I hear someone say "I wish they would bomb, crash aeroplanes and throw anthrax in many places of Europe."(That was the meaning of your writing) 

*Don't you think is logical that I beleive such a person to be insane?* 

 But I'm polite by nature, unless someone ask me when they don't understand, I try to build a bridge to sanity and softly comment on how to help understanding to come by.

So, I don't rush to speak nonsense bla...bla..bla...out of myself.
I don't need to.

But AdmiralAK, if you want more facts and logic, please, we have RacerX.

Good apetite...


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## AdmiralAK (Oct 31, 2001)

Sao, I like you, but you are philosophising.
Philosophy is good, but it needs some sort of practical purpose 
I have, up to this point, gotten the mental image of you being someone like cunfucious lol 

while soapvox, sithious and racerX argue (in the good way) you are just there muttering some philosphism... maybe its just me 


Admiral


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## ScottW (Oct 31, 2001)

Being passive means supporting the other side. If someone comes and attacks us, and those who say, "don't fight back, you will be like them" are only supporting the enemy. If you don't fight back, you have no chance of winning.

How you handle personal conflicts is different than how you wage war. It might be good advice to walk away from a situation in which harm can be done to you as a individual, it is bad to turn away in a war.

I personally don't see any issue with dropping a strategic big one in the "20 mile area" of Mr. Laden. If it takes out half the Afgan popular, so be it. Justice is served. I think America should carry the big stick, and should take action to bring justice... and not through the court system.



Admin


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## Soapvox (Oct 31, 2001)

Personal attacks aside what is your opinion on what was said yesterday while you were taking your tests.   While I do not agree with any personal attacks on anyone, I hope we can all take another look at this thread and keep an open conversation (and hopefully an open mind).  This is something that I feel strongly about, I think Bush is NOT the right person to be running our country and find it hard to explain how the american people actually voted in such a bafoon, but now that he is in office it is my duty to be vocal and try  to let the government be of the people by the people.  This conversation(to me) is about ending this conflict with as little loss of human life as possible  (I find it horendous the lives murdered already) and that we remember and learn from why we are in this conflict in the first place andI know this will not be popular but what 90% of this boils down to is our involvemnet in the middle east to protect our oil interests, where if we spent a lot more on renewable energy, we not only get out of these conflicts and let these people run thier own countries but we also can save  our planet so our children can drink the water and breathe the air.


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## Soapvox (Oct 31, 2001)

Admin thanks for joining the conversation!
I disagree that  being passive supports the other side, being passive is my way of resistance.  You can gain much through financial reform, freeze all thier assets in other countries, no money = no ammo.

I strongly disagree with ever dropping a nuclear weapon on anyone, we murder too  many people as it is, then think of all the muslims in indonesia and other countries that just saw you kill millions of thier brethren, guess what, that puts  us in the same situation we are in now if not worse. As far as "justice" being served, killing is not justice in my eyes it is vengence.  Justice is bringing these people  to trial, and in this situation even convict  them under thier  own laws, while I don't support it, thioer punishment would be something like being stoned to death, that sounds like a pretty horrible way to die  if you ask me, but MY idea of justice is bring these terrorist to trial convicct them and  make them hand scribe sciprture of other religions on a secluded island until they die lonely and learned!

Again please excuse my spelling, I am a drop out and when I write it really shows


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## ScottW (Oct 31, 2001)

Alright,

Let's take a look at history... way back in the Bible times, not all that long ago, but enough to be history...

When Moses parted the Red Sea and Pharaoh's army followed, and the sea crashed down upon them.... was this an injustice to  poor Pharaoh's army... or is that okay because it was an army?

Where do you draw the line on justice vs injustice? Whether are not they are wearing a uniform? How many Bin Laden folks wear a uniform?

Exactly.

Admin


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## Soapvox (Oct 31, 2001)

You are  quoting scripture, thats one of the biggest problems, scripture is written by man whether you believe  it is divinely ordained or not, if there  is a god, I don't believe he would be a vengeful god that destroyed that  many people versus another, thats why we have  free will, he does not intervine, so you have a book claiming these things, that does not mean A) that they happened and B) the events were twisted out of context to appease the needs of clerics long ago.  These are my opinions,  there is a lot to learn from the bible, but everything needs to be question and while the bible  talks a lot of wqar we need to take away the important parts, like love thy neighbor, and the golden rule, not the death and destruiction that takes place in the old testament.


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## ScottW (Oct 31, 2001)

Ah, but the Golden Rule is in the old testament, the same book as with war and destruction. That alone shows a different view point... or look at Sodom and Gorma. The only real example of "nuclear" distruction in history.

I agree, the Bible was written by man, however it was God breathed. 

One can't limit God's ability. Perfection is not limited by our understanding of fairness.

Soap - I suppose you are against the death penalty as well?


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## AdmiralAK (Oct 31, 2001)

To be honest, I tried to go back and re-read everything (since I missed a lot due to fatigue) but my attention span is like that of a rat's on speed.  I read 6 posts and it seems that its mostly a conversation between racerX and sithious, and I dont know exactly where to butt in.

(and as I see others have posted while I re-read)

I too think that this conflict should end with as less of a human loss (on all sides) as possible.  I think the loss of human life is just appauling, (well innocent human loss that is), but each and every one of us has a different biew on what is an acceptable rate or toll.  I dont like the idea of overkill, but I also dont like the idea of underkill,leaving potential problems left to fester and sore until they bite us in the ass again.

sorry if I am not sounding clear here, but I have lost my train of though and this thread seems to have gone on without me while I was away which makes it really ahrd to butt in.


Admiral


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## Soapvox (Oct 31, 2001)

I lack the faith you have in god, to me jesus was a man that was born as anyother and he preached  peace in a time of war.  I am very against  the death peanalty, I have seen too many of my friends die from others  anger and yet I still do not feel that killing those that have done the murder will do anything to bring my friends back.  Make them work hard labor for the rest of thier lives, don't let them get off easy  by dying.  I disagree with you that the bible was breathed by god, I think (in my opinion) that  it was a book written by clerics long ago (because they were the only able to read and write) to keep the masses in line and to explain away things that they could not because they did not have science (this is a complete another thread  ) to explain things.  So  using an outdated book to justify nuclear destruction is not feasible,  and if we were to do that then does that mean we should nuke Las Vegas? If that is not a sysmbol of Sodom and Gomora (?sp) I don't know what is.


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## sfish (Oct 31, 2001)

Dude: You can't do that man, these guys, they're like me, they're pacifists. Smokey was a conscientous objector.

Walter: You know, dude, I myself once dabbled in pacifism, not in 'Nam of course.

Dude: And you know, he's got emotional problems, man.

Walter: You mean, beyond pacifism?


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## sao (Oct 31, 2001)

You are absolutely right!

 When we look at the whole history of civilization, even before biblical times...
 We see the fight for power repeat again, and again, and again.
 So, what have we all learned after all...

 It's the world a better place?
 No. 
 Have the consciousness of the "human being" evolved to higher realms?
 No.
 We keep feeding again and again the same wheel of "cause and effect".

 Like this,  it will never end. Not only that, today, we are so powerfull, we can destroy not only one nation, but the whole world as well.

 And we are doing just that...in many aspects.

 What you beleive will be the consequences of droping a big bomb?

*Peace?* 

 Please, don't be naive or emotional...

 Someday, we all pay the consequences of what we do today.

 If you seed peace, consciousness and understanding...

 Beleive me, your harvest will be plentiful.

 All the best...


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## Soapvox (Oct 31, 2001)

I am missing the point of your post, can you ellaborate please.


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## ScottW (Oct 31, 2001)

Who said destroy the world?

I said, "strategic big one" in reference to a "20 mile area" aka 400 sq miles. That is a small area.

I think what we did in Japan many years ago should be considered again. 

Admin


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## Soapvox (Oct 31, 2001)

the same one I was trying to make earlier, that would kill thousands if not millions of muslims, so they grow up hating america for killing thier brethren, we must think through the consequences  of our actions, and I think empowering the militants and creating thousand of martyrs is playing into the hands of binLaden,  I think  he would want nothing more than to have america drop THE BOMB on afgahnistan, it would unite all the militants in one cause against america.  This is the most dreadful end situation I can think of.


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## sao (Oct 31, 2001)

But admin, you didn't really read my post carefully...

 What do you think will be the consequences?









 Sorry, but whatever your answer will be
 I will go away from this thread now, 
 And you know, 90% of the world population probably agree with you.

 Thanks and good luck...


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## brodie (Oct 31, 2001)

the best way to win  a war is to do exactly what your enemy least wants you to do.
like turn his/their supporters against him/them?


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## AdmiralAK (Oct 31, 2001)

Do the japanese hate us now?
I think not.(of course this is MY interpretation, and sao is free to go on about my egocentrism if he wishes)

I dont think that muslims see other muslims as bretheren if they are not from the same place as they are.  If that were true we would have american muslims in an uproar causing troubles on the home front.



Admiral


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## .dev.lqd (Oct 31, 2001)

I used to think these conversations were trivial- they didn't really affect me, I had little or no direct influence on the issues, and felt I could better serve both myself and my community by keeping my own counsel and looking after myself. 

With an exception- I still believe that. The events of the 11th brought one problem with my little philosophy: I am a voting member of a, albeit representative, democracy. My vote influences what leaders make decisions. I can petition those leaders, write letters to those leaders, and entreat them to consider other vantage points. I can affect what this country does. While I'm only one of many, many billions with this power- I can influence my friends, thereby creating greater influence and greater representation. My friends can do the like. Thusly- I can enact a great amount of influence if I am vocal enough about my opinion.

Largely, I believe the United States was attacked because it's been behaving like a jackass. The general populace knows little about political, economical, and social affairs and strife in the blurred media ether that the world is to so many. It's frightening to think of the consequences. The simple fact is that America needs to get off its collective asses, let their digital satellite TV leases lapse, and start reading a few newspapers. Start having an opinion on the DMCA, and Anti-Terrorism laws that have been enacted so hastily and so clumsily. Start asking whether or not the United States should take a more mediary approach to issues like Israel/Palestine. Finally- talk about those issues with your peers. Think about it. Make it part of your day. Have concern for those who aren't as well off. VOTE.

If the violence that has occurred does nothing else- I hope it shocks many others with similar initiations and causes our nation to, at least, be far more aware of our world. 

Directly- should we be attacking Afghanistan? I can't think of an alternative. If things are left as they are- living conditions will not improve there. I fully support surgical removal of the Taliban and Bin Laden's regime from the country. Earlier someone mentioned that Hitler was elected democratically. It should be noted that he was elected during a time of hard economic strife, and was named a hero for rebuilding the economy upon his war machinery. Diseased tissue only further breeds disease as it dies, and becomes a den for maggots and further filth. Only healthy tissue can grow. 

In rereading my post- some parts of it seem preachy. Just white those out 
The delivery needs some work yet, and I have class 

-- added --
Nuclear war is scary. We should never, ever consider such a course of action again. It is, simply, too destructive. No one can justive mass execution or determine human life as expendable. Such decisions are in line with serial murder. Also- this is the 69th post in this thread! w00t!


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## Soapvox (Oct 31, 2001)

Then why are the muslims in Indonesia and Philipines having anti-american rallies, they see us murdering muslims in afgahnistan. In a world where even the most backwater countries have news, we have become a world of information, and a lot of these countries have national news agencies, so they bias  the news to thier means.  Again I repeat we must think ahead about our actions we take now.

I think japan is not an even comparison, japan was an imperialist nation that was venuring out, and after world war 2 we went in and completely rebuilt them from the ground up, in afgahnistan they are fighting amongst themselves, we come in and play favor on one side, plus we are involved in the middle east where they (muslims) wish to rule themselves without intervention, in this case we are acting more as the imperialists, trying to tell them how to treat women, how to live thier lives.  My point  is is you  cannot compare apples (no pun intended) to oranges.


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## brodie (Oct 31, 2001)

Ad: check out Pakistan, check out the anthrax outbreaks, aren't you paying attention?


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## brodie (Oct 31, 2001)

dev.lqd,
 alternatives: offering the same aid/rebuilding etc that Hitler offered might get most Fundamentalist muslims on our side.
sorry for some 'server' reason i can only post a few lines.


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## sao (Oct 31, 2001)

AdmiralAK,

 I didn't called you egocentric, but I did say your writing looked insane to me...

 I visited Hiroshima, visited Nagasaki, have been there... 

 Very sad indeed...

 What do you think the families of the death japanese from the atomic bombs,  feel towards the US?

 Gratefulness? Happiness? That Justice was done?

 What do you think right now of Bin Laden, after the attack, and RacerX and the admin and many more people around the world.

 Most people are angry, emotional, even hateful

 And then, some of Bin Laden followers will say:

 I don't think the americans hate us, it have already passed 40 years since our attack.

 They love us...

 Please, tell this to a New Yorker...


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## ScottW (Oct 31, 2001)

I think it's funny that people shy away from the Bible and from God. How can one doubt the existence of order when they look around at the world w/o human intervention.

Consider everything, the trees, the animals... the sun, the moon... all these things, without soul or free-choice work perfectly day after day... since the beginning of time.

Even us, as humans, although our decisions are far from perfect, our bodies, function in the same way, a 9 month pregancy, a womans monthly cycle, the heart, our brain... everything seems to have purpose, as though, and for some of you this might be pushing it... as though it was planned by design. 

This war is the ongoing spritual war of good vs evil. Granted, not all America is good and today far from it... but the foundation of this country... is what bin laden disagree's with. It is the freedom of Christianity, that women, enjoy the freedom they have... yet feminists are the very ones again Christianity. Why don't they take a stand against our foes in Afganastan.

For those who don't believe in God or are confused about the whole subject... consider this for topic...

"There is only ONE TRUE God"

That being said... someone in this war represents one God vs another "god". Who, indeed represents the ONE true God.

I am "thankful" that Bush is in the whitehouse, he may not be the best military leader, nor he may not be the most charastmatic leader, but he is, most importantly, a believer... and that my friend will get us further in this conflict, than the other side will ever see.

When God is on your side, who can stand against you?

On a side note, I think we should continue to stand behind Israel, and I think neglecting Israel is a *BAD* thing.

Admin


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## brodie (Oct 31, 2001)

America changed its tune on the Gaza strip conflict rather rapidly after Sept 11th.People, the earth etc haven't been around since the beginning of time, it took millennia foreven basic life to evolve- fact.
Admin, sorry, but your living in a fantasy world. Your not a Mormon per chance are you?
i wonder if this re-edit will allow me to write more...


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## ScottW (Oct 31, 2001)

Nope, not a mormon.  Just a Christian.

"i wonder if this re-edit will allow me to write more..."  huh?


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## brodie (Oct 31, 2001)

i cant post more than 350 characters, otherwise 'macosx.com=newreply' times out. since your server upgrade i think. im in the UK, 18 hops to macosx.com. weird.


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## AdmiralAK (Oct 31, 2001)

As a matter of fact I do look at the news,
I dont really look at USA news per se, although NPR I do from time to time.
I get my news from the greek media via satellite./

I do know about part of the pakistani population and other muslim nations that have gone against the USA in the form of rallies and protests, but its not all of the population and I doubt its even half of it.  Each nation will have a group of radicals that they view Osama and Al Qeida and the taliban as their brotheren, I do not deny that.

Bin Laden's statement made it clear that if muslims did not feel safe (by any force) then americans would not.  I see that as a blatant threat and I do not like threats, and I suspect none of you like threats.  OBL did not say, "ok we stop now, we taught you a lesson", he left it open to the interpretation of  "we'll keep doing things to hurt you".  That is why we NEED to act out.


Admiral


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## sao (Oct 31, 2001)

I couln't go away after reading your last post...

 What are you talking about?

 Have you gone insane?

 How can you beleive in God and talk about "the Big Bomb" same as in Japan?

 Please let God inside you...really, you are confused...

 Humility, Charity, Love, Acceptance, Love for the Spirit.

 To say "one eye for one eye" is not the same as to say "if they hit you, put them your other cheek".

 That was the teaching of Christ, and there has been no higher teaching.

 And being himself a Jew, he was killed by Jews...when he was preaching.

 He was preaching about love and about peace and love for the spirit.

 He was not violent...and he was killed...

 What Israel or Palestinians can teach us about Peace?

 They are killing each other since years and years. 

 They can teach us about war, about hate, about winning at all costs.

 None of them are serious about peace.

 Sadat and Begin helped by Jimmy Carter were serious.

 They achived peace, and at a high price..

 Sadat was killed by his own people and Begin retired into a spiritual life.

 And Bush...

 You really feel he is a beleiver?

 of God?

 Don't make me laugh...

 Just to see his little proud smile when he spoke in a church after the attacks, make me understand how proud he was of himself. 
 In fact he is soo much consumed with himself that he doesn't have a clue of what's going on...

 When we beleive in God it shows...

 It shows...


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## .dev.lqd (Oct 31, 2001)

Perhaps this should be a new feature- as threads get longer and longer- the posts should have increasing character limits placed on them. Wouldn't that make you be picky about your words... eh?  

It'd certaintly introduce a nifty little twist to most flame wars, neh?


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## Soapvox (Oct 31, 2001)

Those are some bold comments Admin.  And very well said. I completely disagree with you though, I do not believe in any god and feel no need to go further into that (like I said a whole nother thread).  I think one of the scariest things about bush is his christianity, not that he is a christian, but he lets his distorted religious beliefs be part of the white house, the fore fathers wanted a government not based on religion (seperation of church and state is not only for schools) but based on the people, and while christianity is strongly represented in America, so are non-believers we just don't have a book or symbol to rallybehind as a unified group, so that said this government is not representative of the general population.  As for good vs. evil, does that mean that because muslims see our lives as evil they have a right to war against us (while most muslims I believe don't agree with our beliefs, feel that that is something we will take up with alah once we die), I think not, Al Queda to me is like the KKK, they are religious based fanatics, that is no need to destroy and murder innocents.


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## ScottW (Oct 31, 2001)

Soap... you missed the point on the good vs evil comment...

There is a underlying spiritual warfare going on... "behind the scenes" that we don't see... but we experience on a day to day basis. When Lucifer went to God saying that Job was ONLY a rightous man because he enjoyed riches and things were going well for him, very well off... God allowed Satan to bring horror to Job's surroundings... destory his family, his wealth, everything he had... God did not allow Satan to take his life...

Thus, Satan went after Job... with all the fury he was allowed to muster up... and Job although burned and bruised and left all but dead... he still worshiped his Lord.

I agree, America is a free country, and you can believe whatever you want. I have no disagreement with that, in fact, it is that very thinking that allows me to sit here and voice my thoughts. It is also why you won't see me "banning" you for your beliefs if indeed they are different... as some folks seem to live in fear of. (must be a streak of bad mods and admins around).

On our money it says, "In God We Trust". This country was founded on relgious freedom, but more importantly, freedom for Christians to worship and not be forced to worship in the way the goverment wants us too. Indeed... our founding fathers also recognized that for this to stand... everyone, whatever their belief... must be allowed to worship freely.

Any act that takes away that freedom of worship... removing prayer from school, removing religion from school, or removing the 10 commandments from court rooms... is indeed infrinding on that very freedom this country was founded on.

If you limit my ability to pray in school, if you limit my ability to post the 10 commands, or have a Bible at work... you have no clue about what freedom is. My freedom to worship how I please, doesn't force you to do so.

The problem with thinking in this country from non-believers is that they think that any "worship" is against the foundation of this country and violation of seperation... when indeed it's not... it's people going about their business the way the choose to do so. If you choose not to worship, that is your choice. If during a moment of silence... you pick your nose and think about which girl is the cutest... that is your choice. No one is forcing you to do anything you don't want to do. If you feel guilty... then you need to evaluate why you feel that way, and consider that something greater may be working in your life... and that someone might actually be tugging at your heart and care for you, but your heart is too hardened to listen or acknowledge.

Admin


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## AdmiralAK (Oct 31, 2001)

I kinda missed this in High School History....
but what did the US government do to prevent th KKK from lynching blacks and "niger lovers" ? What measures did they take ? (trying to throw some fuel on this thread, talk it out, dont want this to turn into a 1st amendment thread about the rights to pray  or about good versus evil because quite frankly its all in the eye of the beholder thats why we cant see eye to eye with OBL)



Admiral


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## ScottW (Oct 31, 2001)

AK - It always come does to good vs evil... the foundation of every conflict on this Earth or in Heaven. To ignore this fact, you will never fix the problem or recognize how to handle it.

We all know... Mac's are good, and Window's is evil!!


Admin


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## .dev.lqd (Oct 31, 2001)

I am not a religious person. It's a hard struggle for me to balance what I know with other's beliefs, especially when people I respect have what I see as blind faith. It is not a matter of my not believing that there is a god- but the fact that I have had no evidence of his existence that leads me to believe such. I consider myself too insignificant to make any kind of determination. It becomes an issue of respect when people who I hold in any esteem cater to God without good justification. I understand the emotional aspects of it, I understand the social aspects of it, I just can't come to the same conclusions given the same circumstances.

The few deeply religious people I've met who I can respect have been the antithesis of fanatical. They have been humble, considerate individuals who almost seem to live a subtle and quiet struggle to live as they believe they should. It's as if they are continually walking against the wind, and yet are unaffected by its cold. I yearn for their kind of spirituality, but am too pragmatic to accept that kind of mindset without some serious dirt or experiences. 

People who do things in the name of God are, generally speaking, deluded.

It should not be considered godly to look upon others with compassion. It should be considered as utterly human as it is considered humane. I see little affection of the world by god (meant in the literal as things directly affected by, not as in reference to endearment) while I see far more direct affection (should I say affliction?) by human beings, quite often, in the name of god. Acts of violence are simply too profane to be done in the name of a being who is defined by love. Humble, soft, and quiet acts would be far, far more befitting to be carried out in his name, if it even needs to be labeled as such. 

I don't feel that god should be involved with the current situation. We need to consider the more human factors of things: particularly preventing more suffering both in Afghanistan and in the world as a whole (not to mention preventing further atrocities as best we can). Funding those who oppress is not humane. Bombing the oppressed is obviously not humane. I consider the current regime in power to be an affliction- they both oppress and starve. Those who are threatened by freedom are usually the same people who will threaten freedom.


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## Soapvox (Oct 31, 2001)

The in god we trust was not put on our money  until an attachement to a bill in the civil war, it was slipped in as a sly trick and now nobody takes it up because we have never known any different, so to say  that the forefathers wanted freedom for christianity is wrong because Jefferson was a naturalist aka pagan.  I have no problem with you praying in school or having a bible or the ten commandments at your office, but if you have a moment of silence imposed at a school function, even saying the pledge I feel adamantly against (again  the one nation under god was not in the original, but place in in the late 1800's) as well as posting religious documents of any source in federally paid for buildings, what you do in your life is up to you.

I am not trying to dissuade you from your religious beliefs at all, I am saying I don't believe in your god and satan. So because of that I think we need to look back at  the evils that we have done (as a nation) to embitter these people, christians and muslims worship the same god, just call it two different names.  Please  people don't ignore the horrible things we have done to these people (and others all over the world, see the philipines, cuba pre-castro, etc...) and think thier hatred is unfounded, that is no excuse but then again we have extremist as  well (KKK, Timothy McVeigh, Kazinski), they just happen to have a smaller country and more power.

BTW I  commend you on  your management of the boards, you do a wonderful job of letting things be (a pleasant surprise from other boards).


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## .dev.lqd (Oct 31, 2001)

Admin: I think that the freedom to worship that is included in the Constitution is not only about freedom to worship as you will, but to prepare and enforce a seperation of state and church, lest the government, intentionally or unintentionally, impose one religion or another. 

I feel that "no prayer in school" was less to exclude prayer in the school as it was meant to prevent school officials from imposing specific practices on children, who are extremely impressionable. Children of all people should be let to form their own opinions of their world. To merely introduce something to them is to teach it to them. I hope that such exclusions is still in effect when I send my own children (whenever they appear) to school, that they might make their own decisions regarding the world around them, as I've been allowed to. Teaching children that Christianity is the norm, I feel, only introduces a standard that they should live up to. I disagree strongly with this.


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## ScottW (Oct 31, 2001)

> _Originally posted by .dev.lqd _
> *The few deeply religious people I've met who I can respect have been the antithesis of fanatical. They have been humble, considerate individuals who almost seem to live a subtle and quiet struggle to live as they believe they should. It's as if they are continually walking against the wind, and yet are unaffected by its cold. I yearn for their kind of spirituality*



The comfort of walking against the wind w/o feeling the cold... can only come from a personal relationship with Chirst. It is this very thing that we see Jonah... who while going against God's direction, was still in complete comfort... and while those non-believers on the ship were declaring the final will and testament from the storm that was upon them... Jonah snored away, asleep and at peace. They went to him and said... Jonah... who is your God? He replied, the one true God who made the sea and the dry land. He knew why the storm was upon them... because of HIM, not because of the non-believers.

That peace is awesome... knowing that if today I am gone, I know where I will be in the blink of an eye... worshiping my Savior, who loves me... even though I don't deserve it.

Admin


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## AdmiralAK (Oct 31, 2001)

Admin I do agree that it comes down to good vs evil, but as I said its all in the eye of the beholder. (nice mac good, pc evil  that was good comical relief  )


No one answered my question on the KKK though.

I am off to class, back after "enterprize"... keep it clean people!


Admiral


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## brodie (Oct 31, 2001)

a lot of people are changing their tunes to suit their argument on each post. a little hypocritical?
keep it short. i have to.


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## brodie (Oct 31, 2001)

shorter and shorter...damn


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## ScottW (Oct 31, 2001)

Guys,

I enjoy these discussions just as much as everyone else does, or at least those who participate in them. In boards I have managed in the passed, I always seemed to have a few of my team (not business team, but spiritual team) who would carry the torch forward.

I am busy building greatness for this site... and will now excuse myself from this conversation... not because I feel I am loosing ground, but because I know who wins in the end. 

Best of luck on your KKK discussion. 

Admin


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## Soapvox (Oct 31, 2001)

Thanks for your input, its good to get all sides!

Admiral, I don't think there ever  was any legislation  against the KKK  per se,  but what I find interesting we did not pass hate crime laws until the 90's,  so I guess that would cover crimes comitted by the KKK, hope that answers what you were asking.


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## RacerX (Oct 31, 2001)

Wow! I didn't think I was gone that long! And when did all the religion stuff come in (Soapvox knows I fall on his side when it comes to that).



> _Originally posted by sithious _
> *all along you have been patronising and pedantic and arrogant and quite honestly i can't be bothered anymore. you sure know how to kill a discussion, racer x. terribly sorry i ever dared to differ from your great and valid opinion. god bless america!"
> *



Where did that come from? We don't agree so you get angry and leave (after some not to flattering comments). What is up with that? I don't get personal, so why should you, Sithious? I never thought any less of you, why does this create such a emotional outburst?

And sao, where do you get off calling ANY one else "self rightious". I have opinions, they are my own. I have never said that anyone needs to follow them, there mine. Everyone should come to there own conclusions. Through out you have been both vague and judgmental, why? 

In discussions like this we put our ideas and background out there for everyone to see where we are coming from. I have NO idea where sao is coming from, I'm surprised (and disappointed) by Sithious, and Soapvox and I have been on the same side of other arguments (and I'm sure we will again in others). I haven't felt that anyone else's ideas are any more or less valid than my own, so I would hope that others would feel the same way.


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## Soapvox (Oct 31, 2001)

While I disagree with you  I value your input on this thread, please keep up  the productive conversation. As far as the religious part, Admin surprised me by joining a thread and wow he definitely tossed  a wrench into the mess, while I don't think this really has anything to do with  religion  (other than maybe Bush's deluded self righteousness) admin aparently does, any thoughts racer?


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## RacerX (Oct 31, 2001)

Not to offend anyone, but most religions scare me (specially those from the mid-east). It is not the teachings, it is the followers that trouble me so much. In this case we have people who SAY they fight for Islam, but don't seem to follow the teachings. On the Christian side, the examples seem endless. Maybe it is just coincidence that they have the same origin, then again maybe not.


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## Soapvox (Oct 31, 2001)

All religions can be good (not something I believe in but teachings are good) its the fanatics that interpret those teachings that taint things, and even if the fanatic is way off the deep end they will always influence a few people even if it is slightly or start opposition so I think religion is flawed because of the human factor which is sorta wierd because to me it is humans that create religion to explain thinks, I know very strange thinking but thats what I believe.


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## RacerX (Oct 31, 2001)

Same here. It seems that people's insecurities about their own religion make them attack others that believe differently. Different beliefs shouldn't be a bad thing if they are not being imposed on others. It is funny, some of the greatest works of art I have seen and heard were inspired by religions, and some of the most nightmarish events in are history seem to come from the same place. Your quite right about the human factor. It is quite the double edged sword.


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## Matrix Agent (Oct 31, 2001)

You guys all remeber how the US gov't came out and said that they were working on a palestinian state right after the attacks came out?

Do you all think that this was true, or that they were just putting a spin on a summit that had little chance of being successful?

I for one would be quite mad if it turned out that they were truly on the edge of creating a palestinian state. Palistinians celebrating the defeat of their chance to have their own state........ironic.

But then again, it just might be propaganda to make the US look innocent.

Any conspiracy therorists out there?


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## sfish (Oct 31, 2001)

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011031/ts/afghanistan_taliban_2.html


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## AdmiralAK (Oct 31, 2001)

ok the KKK issue, if no legislation was passed, then how the heck did they stop their inhumane and idiotic activities ?  There MUST have been some measures.

On religion, anyone can interpret scriptures, it all depends on mindset, agenda, and background (education and so on).

As for surrender, the taliban wanted to give over OBL on their terms as if they had the upper hand, and they wanted to give him over to a third party.  nah ah, to me this is unacceptable.  Also to try him under islamic law ? suuuureee, that would go over well... "how does the jury find the defendant?" --"not guilty your honour" ....


This is a quote from teh above article


> America, what do you want to do?'' Muttaqi said. ``Don't
> make Muslims everywhere angry. Muslims have no problem with
> Americans. It is American policy they disagree with. America
> should not oblige thousands and thousands of Muslims the world
> ...



What the heck gives this guy to speak on behalf of all muslims ?  We are after a select few, OBL and the AL Queida ...boofoons (for lack of a better term...its late for me), we are NOT agains the afgans and definatelly not against the muslim world.  If the taliban had given OBL over a month ago all would have probably ended w/o this current BS.  The taliban and radical muslims want to make the moderates into extremists and I foresee propaganda. probably on both sides.

Goodnight, see you all tomorrow.

Admiral


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## Soapvox (Oct 31, 2001)

I think you are mistaken or possibly misinformed on a couple points of your last post

First bin Laden has been tried under islamic law in absentia in pakistan  and found guilty

Second if the taliban  had given up bin Laden this would not be over, if you listen to bush and rumsfeld they say  this is a war on terrorism and they have been setting thier sites on Iraq and the Sudan ever since this started

As for the KK issue, what they had always done was illegal, they  just were overlooked by the locals, as tolerance became more prevelant they were not able to get away with thier actions, to  this day you can still be a member of the KKK, it just doesn't have the power it once had, just ask David Duke


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## RacerX (Oct 31, 2001)

We do have special laws against hate crimes that take motive into account. Would that be what you would want as far as action (legislative) against the KKK (and other hate groups)?


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## AdmiralAK (Nov 1, 2001)

If bin laden has been tried and found guilty why the heck is he still walking around non neutered ?  His balls should have been cut off (take it as you will, figurativelly or literally) a long time ago, yet he is still free to roam, and pakistan still has its taliban people in there, so I am wondering if this was just a show trial.

As for the war, let me rephrase, I think that the afghani part of the "war" would have been over, not the whole campaign.  One weed at a time (no not the smoking kind )



Admiral
PS: how is everyone today ?


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## g/re/p (Apr 27, 2010)

WOW! (face palm) 

I was wondering about the current status of RacerX and  stumbled across this thread in my meandering search.

Good thing I missed this thread back in the day, because I most probably would have stirred up some major outhouse grease!  LOL!   

(I pretty much agree with RacerX on all of the points he made)



So now, just for fun...... and because I just cannot resist.....here is my very very late contribution to this thread :



			
				 'devil's advocate' said:
			
		

> Nuke the entire Middle-East off the face of the earth with a pre-emptive strike.



End of story / End of problem??


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## Rhisiart (Apr 27, 2010)

I'd nuke the bankers.


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## reed (Oct 20, 2010)

Indeed. AND cronies of course. Who do we nuke first Rhisiart?


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## pds (Oct 23, 2010)

Why do you want to nuke Rhisiart?

And the only problem with the Middle East is it is populated by Middle Easterners. What do you want to stir up all that sand for by nuking them?

 (just in case I am misunderstood)


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## reed (Nov 12, 2010)

It's not a question of Nuking in the Mid-East. Nor anybody. Of course. It's a question of GROWING UP. That's the sad "joke?"

Needless to say: It will never end. SIGH.


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## ElDiabloConCaca (Nov 12, 2010)

pds said:


> And the only problem with the Middle East is it is populated by Middle Easterners. What do you want to stir up all that sand for by nuking them?



I use the same argument against California... it would be _such_ a lovely state if it weren't for all the damn Californians running amok in it.

Seems like everyone in California thinks they're unique and special... yeah, unique and special -- just like everyone else, right?  How many kanga hats, shaved heads, black t-shirts, 50s-era throwback wardrobe, and tattoos does one need to be considered "special and unique?"


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## Rhisiart (Nov 14, 2010)

The dumb ass equation: number of tattoos, multiplied by the number of kanga hats, divided by the number of shaved heads = IQ (i.e. low).


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