# Made In Usa



## yossarian1000 (Nov 12, 2005)

From what I've been able to gather, most Apple computers are now made overseas...China...except for the PowerMacs, which are still made in the USA. 

This is a problem for me. On the one hand, I like macs and I like the OS, but, on the other hand, I don't want to continue supporting a company that outsources American jobs. Go ahead. Call me a protectionist and an islolationist. I won't be offended. I support American jobs, I support organized labor, and I don't shop at Walmart. Whenever possible, I buy products made here by people who live here and I do look for the Union Label. 

Other than Lou Dobbs on CNN, nobody I know, nobody I meet, and nobody I speak with seems to be interested in our vanishing manufacturing jobs...except maybe for George Carlin, who seems to think that Big Business and Politicians don't give a  about us as long as they can grab more money. They'll sell out our middle class to the lowest bidder.

So, much as it pains me, my next computer purchase will probably not be Apple and will probably be from:

http://www.unionbuiltpc.com/home.php

However, I'm open for discussion. Anybody want to share their thoughts?


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## kainjow (Nov 12, 2005)

First off, this isn't Apple news or rumors - should be moved to Cafe 

Second, I'm willing to bet most products you buy aren't made in the US. It's just too dang expensive. And yes, businesses thrive on making profits, what's wrong with hiring employees that do the same work for less? Hasn't China and Taiwan, etc been making products for us for decades? If you're going to base your next computer purchase from the location it was created... well, *no comment*


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## ksv (Nov 12, 2005)

Most of the components are assembled in Asian countries anyway. Probably everything except the processor.

And keep in mind Microsoft do much of their software development in India.

I personally think the right way to improve workers' conditions is to demand imported goods to have been produced under acceptable conditions, by workers with relatively acceptable wages allowed to organize in unions. Of course, that's not going to happen as long as the WTO is ruled by neo-liberalists, but in my view, "free trade" is not free until the people involved is free as well.


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## bobw (Nov 12, 2005)

http://www.unionbuiltpc.com/home.php

Maybe union assembled, but the parts come from other countries.


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## ebykm (Nov 12, 2005)

ksv said:
			
		

> ........ Microsoft do much of their software development in India.




Not true, Microsoft is planning to start development centre in 2008, and for the time being they're only doing some software testing(bug finding, asian languages, etc...). It is true that its 37% employees are Indian origin.


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## Perseus (Nov 12, 2005)

It won't go away. I bought a pen that had the American flag on it, and on the bottom, it said: Made in Japan.


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## lurk (Nov 12, 2005)

I looked at the union built pc site to and really you are not doing anything to support American jobs and preventing outsourcing by buying from them.  As bobw said all the components are foreign.   I have built a few machines in the past and when you think about the 20 minutes they put into unpacking the boxes and putting the cards into the motherboard you have accounted for about 0.04% of the labor involved in making the computer.

Regardless of anyone's politics in the matter I think that such an ineffective gesture is more likely self-defeating than not.  From your perspective at least with Apple the design jobs are still in California.  So more of the labor that goes into making the computer is from the US.  However, that is white collar work so it might not count depending on one's perspective.


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## fryke (Nov 13, 2005)

You're a protectionist and an islolationist. We live in a globalised world, and the USA certainly "helped" creating this world. Well: You asked for that. 

Now for real, though... As I'm Swiss and live in Switzerland, I don't think that I can support your idea. At all. And I certainly hope that Apple does everything it can to allow Macs to become as inexpensive in all countries around the world as possible to stay competitive.

Think of it this way: By supporting Apple _in_ the USA, you support a US company that, by thriving, creates more jobs in the US. (Stores, online stuff, but also R&D, advertising etc.)


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## CaptainQuark (Nov 17, 2005)

yossarian1000 said:
			
		

> China  I don't want to continue supporting a company that outsources American jobs I support American jobs



Hmmm  so pollution, repressive dictatorial government, horrendous human right abuses and the illegal occupation of Tibet don't enter into it, then.

And people wonder why I dislike the USA:    "the rest of the world as long as we're OK!" What a selfish, small-minded, myopic world view you people have.


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## nixgeek (Nov 17, 2005)

CaptainQuark said:
			
		

> Hmmm  so pollution, repressive dictatorial government, horrendous human right abuses and the illegal occupation of Tibet don't enter into it, then.
> 
> And people wonder why I dislike the USA:    " the rest of the world as long as we're OK!" What a selfish, small-minded, myopic world view you people have.



But CQ, why don't you tell us how you _really_ feel.... 

(/me eyes target appearing on my chest   )


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## CaptainQuark (Nov 17, 2005)

Sorry nixgeek, but*it's something I feel strongly about! As a proponent of world peace and brotherhood, I dislike any country, government or people  including Britain  that acts purely out of self-interest and without consideration for others.


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## bobw (Nov 17, 2005)

> I dislike any country, government or people  including Britain  that acts purely out of self-interest and without consideration for others.



I think you would find this doesn't represent most Americans, except maybe Bush and Cheney.


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## CaptainQuark (Nov 17, 2005)

I have always prided myself that I don't judge people purely by their nationality, so I have nothing at all against the average "Yank-on-the-street"    except the A-holes that voted for aforementioned Bush & Cheney. But any nation that can spawn such a horror as Donald Rumsfeld ought to feel collectively _deeply_ ashamed of itself!   

 I'm making _lots_ of new friends here, aren't I?


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## bobw (Nov 17, 2005)

> the A-holes that voted for aforementioned Bush & Cheney



Most of those people are now in hiding


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## CaptainQuark (Nov 17, 2005)

Now _there_ are some people that need a dose of the ol' white phos!


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## Satcomer (Nov 17, 2005)

I am proud to be an American and vet. The situation I see is just because Bush is President (we all know how much he has screwed up)it seems now fashionable to "hate" America.  You know you would be VERY surprised that the dreaded American conservatives want Bush gone too.


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## Perseus (Nov 18, 2005)

This hole hatred thing does seem like a fad.  I mean it certainly makes some people feel better about themselves.


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## bbloke (Nov 19, 2005)

There are two sides to this issue.  Yes, there are some who attack "America" (whether that means the people, the nation, or the government) because it can be socially acceptable.  But I do say *"some."*  I have lived in both the UK and the USA, and so tend to feel affinities to both countries, but don't really have a definite, single sense of national identity, which I think is a good thing in many ways.  When I hear people attack "America" out of knee jerk reaction, rather than based on genuine facts, I tend to confront them and try to show the other side.  Likewise, when I hear Americans talk of being leader of the free world or taking the moral high ground, then I confront them too.

I think it is really important to make some distinctions here!  I don't think a lot of what people hear is genuine *hatred*, although that does exist around the world too.  I also think we need to make distinctions between the American people, the American nation as an entity, and current or past government administrations.  When people complain about the USA's role in the world, it is most usually about the foreign policy, rather than American citizens on an individual basis (although the line obviously blurs when you have citizens defending policies which others find reprehensible).

If this sort of thing becomes seen by Americans as a passing fad, where non-Americans have no real basis for disliking America's actions in the world and are just jealous or something, then I'd really, really, really worry.  I would then not know if those with this view were simply not aware of things done in their name over many decades, or whether they actually supported them.  For the sake of brevity, I won't go into lots of details at the moment, but the list does involve environmental policies which others cannot support, overthrowing democratic regimes, supporting dictators, turning a blind eye to genocide, use of torture, and so on.

I certainly wouldn't want people to get the feeling I'm attacking the USA right now.  To me, bobw's and nixgeek's comments were very well measured and I appreciate them being understanding about what was at the heart of the matter.    At risk of putting words in CaptainQuark's mouth, I expect these are the sorts of people he would have no issues with at all, and CaptainQuark is complaining about the attitudes of others.  Also, to show this is not about targeting a certain nationality, I'll give you a counter example where I was deploring the manufacture of torture devices in the UK, which were then exported.  Someone I was discussing this with then told me he didn't care about that, he was more worried about supporting British jobs.  I then, as you can imagine, really went to town on him (verbally).  People have concerns about all Western governments, but a problem is that America tends to be more powerful and therefore "the stakes are higher" (i.e. a greater capacity to do harm if they pursue similar or "worse" foreign policies), and that might it *look* like America is being a target out of some hidden motivation, when in fact the concerns are genuine.


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## yossarian1000 (Nov 19, 2005)

Yes, I'm an American. Yes, I'm both a protectionist and an isolationist when it comes to minding our own business, staying out of other countries business, and protecting our own manufacturing jobs, but I also don't think we Americans spend nearly enough on foreign aid. Of course, if we still had manufacturing jobs here, we'd have a lot more money to spend on foreign aid because we'd have a lot more middle class people to pay middle class taxes.

Having Chinese workers who earn an average of $42 a month working 12 hour days just to keep WalMart supplied with cheap goods is not a viable solution either for helping raise the standard of living in China or providing Americans with decent paying jobs here. However, if you're a multi-national corporation, it's a perfect solution. As long as corporations are fat, the rest of us can live on the crumbs.

If the Chinese want to sell DVD players or computers in the United States, then either pay their workers equivalent US wages or pay a stiff tariff to make up the difference. My personal preference would be higher wages but I'm sure we could use the tariffs to pay down our trillion dollar deficit.

The United States no longer has an electronics industry, the steel industry is almost gone, and last night Northwest Airlines was reported to want to fire 2500 flight attendents and replace them with cheap foreign workers.

Yes, I'm aware that buying a computer from an American company which is assembled by a union member is a pointless gesture, but if the only option one is left with is a pointless gesture, why worry about it? Not shopping at WalMart is also a pointless gesture but I have no problem with that either.

Some of you may have noticed the union built pc site I linked to sells computers for about the same price as everyone else. The New Balance shoes I'm wearing are made in the United States yet sell for about the same price as "cheap" foreign shoes. The union made jeans I'm wearing are also about the same price. However, my union made sweatshirt is about $5 more. I can live with that.

Don't get me wrong. I can live with fair trade and globalization as long as it means a higher standard of living for foreign workers and not sacrificing our standard of living in the process, but when American companies use slave labor and stuff their own pockets in the process, well, that's just bad.

On the other hand, I guess you could make a good argument that bringing slaves into America to grow sugar cane in the early 1800s...not cotton, by the way...was good for the American economy and they were probably better off being slaves than they were back in Africa. Right? Globalization?

One argument about buying Apple products that I haven't seen here is the one where I continue to purchase American made and Union made products whenever and wherever possible but continue to support Apple because of their innovations....pretty much the same argument for buying that Porsche I can't afford or the French brie I so dearly love.

I suppose the thing I find most troubling is the large number of people who see no value in collectiving bargaining, no value in others having a good job...as long as you do...and the large number of people out there who don't realize there has never been a communist government on this planet ( a communist government by it's very nature must also be 100% democratic). I'm also at a complete and total loss as to why the FX Network couldn't make a go out of OVER THERE...but that's just me.

Thanks for the comments and the input.


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## bobw (Nov 19, 2005)

You talk about Unions. Unions are a primary reason our jobs have left the US. People decide to unionize, then tell the owners of the company, how much they have to pay them, how much health insurance they have to supply,etc.
Still doing this today. In my city, the public transportation went on strike a few weeks ago. Major city, it crippled the city for a week, not long, but the last strike three years ago, when that contract ended, they went on strike for 40 days. The union wanted what they wanted, not caring about whether or not the city or state had the money to pay for their request. And, they negotiated in the new contract, that the workers didn't lose any money, they had to be paid their normal pay for the time they went on strike.

I'd go out of my may to buy non-union.

As for foreign aid from the US, I think the US should take care of the people here that don't have shelter, food, jobs, etc, before a dime is sent to any other country.

All the money we pay in taxes should help here first, but our politicians see fit to give our money away in anyway they want to.

example-Pennsylvania Senator gives France 4 million to study fruit flies.


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## Perseus (Nov 19, 2005)

Politicians also spend way too much on their own campaigning. Mayor Bloomberg of NYC spent roughly $60 million of his own cash, to get a few extra votes.


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## 128shot (Nov 19, 2005)

Quite yet another thread I can make an ass out of myself in heh..





The real problem with any globalized process ends up being this-


Labor is a commodity, and in many countries this commodity is under oppressive rule and doesn't have the chance to bargain-



on the flip side-China just held its first election in years, and has loosened great resetriction on peasants, and on labor. Allowing for the first time in years for the standard of living to boost 3 fold, 3 fold. Thats insane.



Labor unions themselves aren't inherently bad, but look at who controls the unions.

1.Mob bosses


2. Greedy men

3. Idiots


you got it, thats basically who controls most of the unions in the united states.


For example: 

So what if the business you work for is paying you lets say 5 dollars an hour, and they could pay you 6?  just for kicks, lets say thats damn good money. 



you know most of the jobs being exported happend 10 years ago? why didn't it cause problems then? how come the economy didn't crash? 


Give me a break...


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## adambyte (Nov 20, 2005)

"Mob Bosses, Greedy Men, and Idiots"... those people also control major corporations, and the two parties in American politics...

Aw, hell. Those kinds of people are everywhere, really.


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## Satcomer (Nov 20, 2005)

<cut for civility sake>


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## 128shot (Nov 20, 2005)

adambyte said:
			
		

> "Mob Bosses, Greedy Men, and Idiots"... those people also control major corporations, and the two parties in American politics...
> 
> Aw, hell. Those kinds of people are everywhere, really.






I can attest that not all business men are with the mob or politics ;-)


Hell, most of them at least donate money, don't see any Union bosses doing that very often...


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## yossarian1000 (Nov 22, 2005)

You know, it doesn't seem to make much difference if we discuss government, labor unions, or a bloated non-profit, like I work for. There appears to be an underlying problem. Bureaucracy. Bureaurcacies have a habit of getting fat and sluggish until they begin to rot in their own stench. Static rather than dynamic. It's like the military. The command structure in the field is dynamic and it works pretty damned well, even fast and furious once a mission is undertaken. The Pentagon is another matter completely. Entrenched bureaucracy. Fat and bloated. There seems to be a problem with how bureaucracies are structured, or even the very nature of bureaucracies themselves, because so many of them don't seem to work very well at all.

If they did, you could have basically any form of government you wanted. There'd be no reason socialism or communism couldn't work as well as a free market economy. Labor unions could be lean and mean, just like the companies whose workers they represent, government would be just as efficient as we demanded it to be, and public education would truly be the magic bullet it was meant to be. If you could figure out what's wrong with bureaucracies.

So, how about some of you social scientists putting your thinking caps on and fixing this little problem so the social systems we choose to solve our problems with might actually work for a change.

In the meantime, I'll continue with my pointless gestures of buying products which are made in the country I live in by people who live here too and supporting organized labor even though mentioning the fact I belong to a union would immediately get me fired at work....yes, some unions will accept single members just for the added support. I'll continue thinking that helping our neighbors overseas is just as important as helping our own citizens and that we need to do more of both.

Oh, and the fact that China recently had elections is about as important to the general scheme of things as the elections the USSR used to have.

I was pretty much still sitting on the fence about whose computer to buy when I do my next upgrade until I listened to the news last night. 30,000 GM employees are about to lose their jobs and China just announced an SUV they plan to sell in the US for less than $10,000. Suddenly, that "made in China" mac looks far less attractive to me than it did yesterday, but that's just me.

Thanks again for the imput.


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## 128shot (Nov 22, 2005)

yossarian1000 said:
			
		

> You know, it doesn't seem to make much difference if we discuss government, labor unions, or a bloated non-profit, like I work for. There appears to be an underlying problem. Bureaucracy. Bureaurcacies have a habit of getting fat and sluggish until they begin to rot in their own stench. Static rather than dynamic. It's like the military. The command structure in the field is dynamic and it works pretty damned well, even fast and furious once a mission is undertaken. The Pentagon is another matter completely. Entrenched bureaucracy. Fat and bloated. There seems to be a problem with how bureaucracies are structured, or even the very nature of bureaucracies themselves, because so many of them don't seem to work very well at all.
> 
> If they did, you could have basically any form of government you wanted. There'd be no reason socialism or communism couldn't work as well as a free market economy. Labor unions could be lean and mean, just like the companies whose workers they represent, government would be just as efficient as we demanded it to be, and public education would truly be the magic bullet it was meant to be. If you could figure out what's wrong with bureaucracies.
> 
> ...




GM was losing anyway, so was Ford. That is totally different than made in China scheme. two topics that don't particularly relate for any apparent reason. GM/Ford are being beat by their Japanese compeition. Chrysler is having its biggest bounce back ever, and its going to over cap what GM and Ford had in marketshare by the end of next year, easy. They're going to low cost fuel economy cars. I saw a nice doc on it a couple days ago.


The difference between USSR mock elections and Chinese mock elections is that the Chinese mock elections were pressured by the people for the people, it wasn't a false sense of democracy, well, it was, but yet it wasn't.



I could probably balance national budget, give me three candles and a 72 hour firing spree and our country would be tip top shape..


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## fuzz (Nov 24, 2005)

Economies, industry and competition are always changing.  150 years ago, the US textile  industry was booming.  The US started out as a country with cheap labor and "took" jobs away from European countries like the UK.  We prospered, standards of living increased, and our economy and markets deconstructed and reconstruction in other areas.  

Japan came around in the 80s, and provided fierce competition in electronics and cars.  Now, it's China that's providing even more fierce competition in many many areas including electronics, etc.  It's not just the US that's being affected.  I think protectionist measures are like sticking a finger in a crack of a dam ... it'll slow down the leak a little but won't help in the end.  Eventually, China will be where we are economically, and things will change again - but that might be beyond our lifetime.  

A very interesting reading is called "China Inc." by Ted Fishman.


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## Lt Major Burns (Nov 24, 2005)

i live in britain.



we have no industry.


we all have jobs.


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## fryke (Nov 24, 2005)

Yeah, what do people care as long as they're rich and beautiful, eh...


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