# Response to the attacks on the US?



## Matrix Agent (Sep 11, 2001)

I for one think that we must attack the specific people who organized this operation. We must be sure of who has organized this, but after that, anything is fair game with the people who organized this.

The resons for an attack are not for simple retaliation, but to show these terrorists that by commiting this acts, they put their familes, friends. neighbors and nations at risk.We should not attack an entire nation based on a few citizen's actions. The only way i can see justifing attacking a nation is if Bin Laden can be proven guilty, but is still protected by the taliban.

Anyone ever read Tom Clancy's 
Exectutive Decision? I finished it last week. Scary. Is this just the beginning?


----------



## Soapvox (Sep 11, 2001)

I know I am a oddity in America, but as much as I am disgusted by the abhorent action thats has rocked us today, I am a pacifist and revenge is never healthy.  We need to find the terrorist who partoke of this unimaginable mass murder and put them in a hard labor camp forever.  Murder even in response to a crime such as this is still murder.  We need to infiltrate and disband this group whether foreign or domestic, but Murder is Murder


----------



## AdmiralAK (Sep 11, 2001)

so how does the death penalty factor into this as a "punishment".


----------



## Matrix Agent (Sep 11, 2001)

Being a pacifist is cool, i have no problem with that. But its application to this problem is too idealistic. How could we possibly take a terrorist alive? We'd lose many more lifes trying to do this.

While a hard labor camp would be much more fitting than to be killed in an explosion, the chances of achiveing this are low.

What kind of message do we send if we do nothing? Should we just invest all of our money and energy in defensive apparatus and intelligence which may not even work, and may alienate the US from the global community?

There is a time for offense and a time for defense. I'm afraid this situation wont be helped much by becoming defensive right now.

P.S. Is hard-labor unconstituional?


----------



## Soapvox (Sep 11, 2001)

we preach that we are a civilized and democratic society, yet we murder people instead of punishment.  It looks like we already be jumping the gun anyways, while I write this I see on the news bombings taking place in Kabul.  If we stoop to thier level of murder then what makes democracy and freedom better than thier form of barbarry?  This is an idealistics way of looking I understand, but without idealism we never become a better society, but again at the same time I must admit there is a part of me that would love to go bomb the SH** out of these people, but we must think with our heads and heal with our hearts.  I understand everyones opinion and ccelebrate it this is merely mine.


----------



## Matrix Agent (Sep 11, 2001)

Soapvox, do you think that it would be reasonable to say that we need to make some kind of invasive manuver to capture/kill the people responsible? Or do you feel that we should make no foreign military actions whatsoever?

I think we are a lot closer in opinion than you think.


----------



## kilowatt (Sep 11, 2001)

I think its fair to say that the only thing these terrorists understand is terror. Acts of Violence. Aggression. They are not going to go to jail. They don't even deserve to live. 

You kill +10,000 people, well, anything to prevent you from doing it agian is well worth it. I'd kill him(s) myself without hesitation (and I'm not a violent person, either). Its the only message they will understand.

Being passive is like trying to be neutral. Thats what it looks like. This isn't a time for neutrality. We need to be firm in what is wrong and what is right, in a language that these people can understand. *Their language.*


----------



## Matrix Agent (Sep 11, 2001)

I'm trying to look past my inner rage and all the feelings inside me, I try and be realsonable, but these are the images that circulate in my head:

1. People jumping from the top floors of the WTC. Imagine seeing that.  

2. People in wheelchairs waiting for someone to help them down the stairs because the elevators don't function. They really did attack the helpless. They put the workers of that building in a horrible position. Who wants to make a decision like that?

3. The emergency workers being crushed trying to help others escape.

4. The people on board the plane who watched their death coming. One lady called her husband twice from the lavatory. Imagine how he feels now.

5. The people who are right now frantically calling everyone they know to find out if a loved one is ok.

This is the worst act of terrorism ever. I can't sit back and watch people get away with this.


----------



## Soapvox (Sep 11, 2001)

But murder is not, I am not saying let this just go, I was crying as I saw the first tower collapse thinking of all the people that were MURDERED.  I saw the footage of the people jumping out of the building and threw up, I just saw a clip where they saw the second plane hit from the bottom and wretched.  I can honestly say I wont get a good night sleep for quite a while and as I stated before my rage say kill the bastards but my head say we need to show that we are above that, bring these people in front of either American courts or the courts in The Hauge because I would definitely consider these war crimes.  But we need to be the country we claim to be. I understand everyones anger, and deeply regret all the lives lost.  I am not religious but my thoughts are with you.


----------



## iPenguin (Sep 11, 2001)

I don't know, but I think you guys are jumping the gun. We don't even know who is responsible for these acts, and you're already thinking about how to deal with them. More things may happen... the guy (girl... group... we don't know yet...) is still on the loose, and as long as they're loose they can cause more damage. Once we find out who has perpetrated these horrible things, then we can decide what we think should be done to them. Who knows, there might be a police stand-off with them, and the perpetrator(s) might get shot on accident... I think that's happened before. Or all the people responsible might have alreay died in the plane crashes... 
	Anyway I've heard this act is being compared to Pearl Harbor, and people blaming other countries and people (namely Sadam Hussen and Pakistan, along with others) and saying that it may lead to World War 3... I think all that stuff is quite harsh but it might be possible... 

	All in all, I think the people that did this were heartless bastards with no regard for human life. I mean, how could someone do that?? It's sick... And then some normal civilians saying that they would go kill those people back... To me that's just as sick, and without regard for human life... 
	God, let this be a dream, let me wake up now...


----------



## kilowatt (Sep 11, 2001)

> _Originally posted by iPenguin _
> * And then some normal civilians saying that they would go kill those people back... To me that's just as sick, and without regard for human life...
> God, let this be a dream, let me wake up now...  *



Sick? Justice? I think we all can agree that when we find out who did this, something needs to be done to prevent it. I understand that there are many terrorists, and that we will never get to them all. But if we can get to these guys, who knows how many lives we could save. Imagine if the plane that hit the pentagon had been downed before it hit? True, the terrorist would have died in the plane, but those 32 people in the pentagon would still be alive. 

"The good of the many outweigh the bad for the few.... ....or the one."

If a few people have to die to prevent something like this from happening again, so be it. 

These terrorists didn't attack stratgic targets. They attacked to kill. They killed people who didn't have a chance. Its not like when the US bombs a missile factory at night. This was at 8:56am in a building housing +25,000 people. 

I can't be passive with people like this. If diplomacy would put these people down, they might have used it agianst us. They used blood. They killed. And that is how we must communicate our message.

People die in war. In the name of peace. It sounds backwards, but sometimes peace comes at a coast. No doubt, more will die to bring these criminals to justice.

(excuse my volgar raw thoughts..... I haven't used my brain lately, so its a bit rusty...)


----------



## AdmiralAK (Sep 11, 2001)

The weold is gonna be blown to pieces....
society has been degraded...its just sickening....


on the lighter side ...who believes in profecies ??? I saw somewhere something by Nostradamus descibing something remarkably similar to what happened today. 


Admiral


----------



## Soapvox (Sep 11, 2001)

There can never be "justice" in a situation like this


----------



## AdmiralAK (Sep 11, 2001)

The weird thing about this whole situation is this crazy sense of deha vu that I just had.   I am listening to the radio (while surfing the net...which is quite unusual for me) listening to coverage about this matter and I have this sense of having lived through something like this...but I was young for the oklahoma bombing so that cant be it... am I trapped in a time warp or something ??  It was an instantaneous sense of deja vu that gave me goosebumps


----------



## iPenguin (Sep 11, 2001)

This is just plain horrible... people are still stuck in the debris... I can't imagine what people are going through... this is horrible...


----------



## kilowatt (Sep 12, 2001)

I must agree, there can be no real justice. How much are 10,000 lives worth? How much is the entire NY bomb squad worth? 

How much is a single innocent person worth?

We have to do something to show the world that we will not sit and wait for the next attack. 


I am certain that 'blood will follow blood'. Although it in no way 'makes up' for what has happened, the US will no doubt retalliate. And I support that.

Lets pray this doesn't get out of hand, though. 

It would appear that every nation is on our side, so I doubt that we will be looking at a war. These crimes are not agianst the United States, but agianst Humanity, Justice, and Freedom. Any nation foolish enough to stand agianst the United States on this has basically asked for it.


----------



## Soapvox (Sep 12, 2001)

And my life is changed............



I picked up the paper and was crying on the bus ride into work this morning.  These acts were not only attacks against Americans there were people from all over the world in those towers.  My roomate had friends from Germany in that tower yesterday on business and she has not heard from them.  This is a global act of terror. 

I am pained


----------



## scott (Sep 12, 2001)

Terrible. I was out in the boonies and didn't hear until last night. My heart goes out to all.

This is a wake up call for the Americas and the world. Evil does not always hide behind a flag.


----------



## Mindy (Sep 12, 2001)

My heart and prayers go out to all those who have suffered loss yesterday.  

I think our first course of action is, of course, to search for and rescue any survivors of yesterday's terrorist attack.  We should vigorously search for those who are responsible for this horrendous act and should respond in a manner that will communicate clearly to others our resolve.

After watching C-SPAN this morning and CNN almost constantly, it appears that both houses of Congress are in full support of the President as he responds to this issue.  I know that President Bush will do whatever it takes to take decisive action against those who commited this crime and those who harbor them.

His speech this morning was significant, calling the acts yesterday not acts of terror but acts of war.  The wording of his short speech was strong, using words like "acts of war", "win" and others.  

To not respond in a decisive and strong way to the tragedy would be unthinkable.  In my opinion, we've sat by too often as people have attacked our nation and our nation's interests.  I think it is time to send a CLEAR message, by whatever means are necessary, to those who would oppose the United States.

It is a time of mourning but also a time to respond with wisdom.  We should all pray for our leaders, especially President Bush, as they decide what it best to do.


----------



## scott (Sep 12, 2001)

> I think it is time to send a CLEAR message, by whatever means are necessary, to those who would oppose the United States.



The interests of the U.S.A. are not always agreed upon throughout the world, and that is innevitable. I am not going to comment on that, it is not the time, but there MUST be a realization that this was (more than likely) done by INDIVIDUALS acting on their own, not under the ospices of a nation. Therefore, as hurt as it is, the U.S.A. and its friends cannot retaliate upon the innocent citizens of the attackers homeland as the attackers have done to the innocent citizens of the U.S.

I really feel for the decision makers in Washington right now, as they have to retaliate, but to what? I think this is an attack of merciless proportions and I hope the planners behind the attacks are found - but how does a group of, say, 50 planners get punished for the lives of thousands?


----------



## acidtuch10 (Sep 12, 2001)

OK I am a little outraged ! I have served in Iraq - Bonsnia and a few other places in the middle east while in the USMC --- I was in a Wpns Plt. So I was usually at the front and in the sh!t.. If it wasn't for the radiation of nukes I would say launch them all there ! I have seen there anger for americans and it is unfortunate. I went there with an open heart ... I left full of hatred. For what I believe, have seen, have been involved with ---- I would stand tall behind Mr. Bush if he presses a button and wipes a peticular country of the map --- period.


Acid


----------



## scott (Sep 12, 2001)

My last post seemed wussy, so let it be known that the group responsible for this should slowly be burned alive, while the children watch what happens when you follow Daddy's mentality of Jihad.


----------



## Mindy (Sep 12, 2001)

It's understandable that everyone is outraged, but wishing misery on children isn't my cup of tea.

Just more two cents worth here.


----------



## acidtuch10 (Sep 12, 2001)

From experience in the Gulf --- I will highly agree --- But unfortunately I think the retribution needs to be very swift and deadly ----- The Geneva Convention has evoked chapter 5    YIPPIE   SWIFT RETRIBUTION


----------



## Mindy (Sep 12, 2001)

What's Chapter 5?


----------



## acidtuch10 (Sep 12, 2001)

It opens the door and allows a country that has suffered an act of violence from another country -- To engage with some sort of retribution toward that country without criticism from NATO or allied countries

In other words..... if we find who did it and bombed the sh!t outta them, no one will question it


----------



## monty (Sep 14, 2001)

Chapter five of the NATO agreement basically says "One in all in." Although the level of involvement is up to individual countries. This is unprecedented.

It's not just NATO, China and Russia are pledging support for the effort. Also our Prime Minister (Australia) just invoked the ANZUS (Australia, New Zealand, US) treaty which is the equivalent to the NATO treaty for us, full military support etc. I also here the Japan has joined the alliance. No one here ever thought that this treaty would be invoked in that direction, i guess Europeans are feeling the same way. NATO was designed to protect Europe from the Soviets, ANZUS was designed to protect us. Then again, I also never thought I would see Europe, America, Russia and China all fighting on the one side!

Note: I am in full favour of this, but this has to be surgical, as little collateral damage as possible. If you kill civilians you may drive their families to join terrorist organisations for revenge.

As someone said on Slashdot.org:
rm -rf /bin/laden

I am also very worried that as we close in on Osama bin Laden (if it's him) he will order desperate attacks in return. I fear terrorists that know they are going to die!

I am incredibly sickened by reports of people lashing out on Australians of Middle Eastern descent, i hear that similar things are happening in the US.

peter


----------



## AdmiralAK (Sep 14, 2001)

Just have to say that the rm -rf UNIX command is a nice touch


----------



## Ricky (Sep 14, 2001)

I was totally shocked and saddened by this attack against HUMANITY.  Those terrorists had no regard for life at all when they did this, and Osama bin Laden thinks this is just a game.  Even if he didn't do it, we should still whoop his ass just to show him who's boss.  He has lead several attacks against the US, and I wouldn't be surprised if he was the one who did this.

My first thought about this was that, I don't want another war, we've had enough already, and there's chances of biological and nuclear weapons being used.  But then I started to think about all the support we're getting from our allies, and figured, hey, let's go for it.  He can't take us all on at once, let's make him feel as helpless as we felt when the first plane destroyed the WTC!!!

Let's nuke his ass!!!!!  I can't wait to see how this turns out for him!!!  We're all for one and one for all, almost all the countries are ready, so let's do it!  Let's kill this rat bastard!


----------



## Soapvox (Sep 14, 2001)

Ricky, and everyone else, please do not think ill of me when I say this as it is only my opinion, but nuking would kill many innocent afgani people who are actually involved in a civil war right now to oust the Taliban.  Yes I know these animals that perpetrated this have killed many innocents themselves, but unless we are prudent about our retaliation, we will be monsters just as them.  If you are suggesting going and taking out the animals that did this we can do that with smart weapons, that do not cause fallout and poison the land nearby and do it in such a way that they will never even know that Bin Laden existed.  I do not think we should have more violence but in a case as extreme as this I will not protest it either, but nuking should not even be oin the table even if we find out the Taliban ordered it because millions would be slaughtered that in the large scheme of things are our allies against the Taliban.


----------



## Ricky (Sep 14, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Soapvox _
> *nuking would kill many innocent afgani people who are actually involved in a civil war right now to oust the Taliban.*



You're right, I'm over reacting and I am sorry for that.  It's the rage talking.


----------



## Soapvox (Sep 14, 2001)

Tesnsions are  high and angers flare, we all need to be a little more understanding with eachother in this time


----------



## monty (Sep 15, 2001)

AdmiralAK, although the humour is pretty black i have to admit that my first reaction to the rm command was a smile. Another one i also saw on slashdot was: chmod a+x /bin/laden (Give everyone the permission to execute bin Laden)

If he did do it (or if we get it wrong and go after him anyway) I worry about reprisals as forces get closer to him. He is supposed to have a terrorist network that spans 34 or more countries.  I can't even imagine what his last ditch efforts might be. And even if we get him, won't that make him a martyr? But diplomacy is pointless in this case. He has declared holy war on the US, I don't think he'll listen to reason.

We must look at our policies in the middle east as well. Why do so many people hate the US? They're not all insane. Maybe we should start a serious campaign to show the middle east how great being a western country is, freedom and all that. They are suffering a major lack of information. But we must be ready to help them. If they stage revolutions, we must support them, unlike in Iraq after the Gulf War where the west turned its back and thousands were slaughtered.
IMHO the best way to stamp out terrorism is to stop being the "Great Satan" to these people. It kind of sounds like this might be what the US Government has in mind after the retaliation towards the people who did this. I know that you didn't really mean it but nuking them back to the stone age will only increase their hatred towards the west.

I really feel sorry for Islamic people everywhere, seeing their peaceful religion be twisted into a brainwashing device for mass murder.

peter


----------

