# ouchie...



## Nummi_G4 (Nov 15, 2002)

http://www.digitalvideoediting.com/2002/11_nov/reviews/cw_macvspciii.htm

 Mac gets crushed. (sorry if someone else posted this)


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## serpicolugnut (Nov 15, 2002)

...And Mac apologists will have a zillion responses along the lines of "the tests were skewed towards the PC", "mhz doesn't matter'...blah blah blah...

Apple had better becomes at least competitive in Professional Performance of their desktops, or 2003 will be a very bad year for the Pro unit...


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## kendall (Nov 15, 2002)

Intel's Hyper-Threading technology is going to squash the dual processor myth Apple is trying to instill in PowerMac users.

Tom's Hardware also has a great review of the new P4 3.06GHz HT against a P4 3.6GHz.

http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/02q4/021114/index.html 

Wow Apple, not only are those MHz getting high but the technological advancements Intel is making sure are starting to put the G4 to shame.

I love Apple dearly and wouldn't trade my iBook for anything but when it comes to a desktop computer, I'd always choose a PC over a Mac.  Pretty soon, no Photoshop benchmark in the world is going to save the Mac from a PC.

Don't forget my favorite part of the whole article.

_Of course, Mac stalwarts will cling to the notion that Mac OS X is so much better and easier to use than Windows XP, but if youre spending all day inside After Effects, which operating system youre using makes little difference. What does make a huge difference is if you have to sit and wait for rendering any longer than necessary. And, according to our benchmarks here, if you have an After Effects composite that needs, say, two hours to render on the Mac, itll take you about an hour and 10 minutes on this PC._

Whine about it all you want but its the truth.


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## malexgreen (Nov 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Nummi_G4 _
> *http://www.digitalvideoediting.com/2002/11_nov/reviews/cw_macvspciii.htm
> 
> Mac gets crushed. (sorry if someone else posted this) *



So why switch? Does the 2.2GHz Pentium4 M outperform the 1GHz G4 in the powerbook?


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## kendall (Nov 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by malexgreen _
> *So why switch? Does the 2.2GHz Pentium4 M outperform the 1GHz G4 in the powerbook? *



In real-word application, YES.


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## iMacLover (Nov 15, 2002)

Why switch to a Mac?  

Because OS X 10.2 is the most reliable OS on the market.


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## Sogni (Nov 15, 2002)

Woah... I wonder if that thind would run Linux - only THEN would it rock! 

But MAN do people really spend that much money on a PC??? I'll bet you can save tons of money by building it yourself.

If you ask me, only Sony (on the X86 architecture) and Apple are worth the money. Everything else I have built (even servers for a Web Hoster). 

But, gotta love PCs and Microsoft tho - they keep me in business!


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## Nummi_G4 (Nov 15, 2002)

As long as my Mac can run  OSX, Photoshop, BBEdit and other Adobe apps at high speeds, I am happy.


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## solrac (Nov 16, 2002)

This is true, and the PC is a great deal faster, but check this out:

My PC friend bought a dual Xeon 2.4 Ghz system for $5000. It crushes any G4 system by 100 fold, easily.

But... he always says... "when I am rendering, I do not TOUCH the computer. It's my golden rule. Because if you touch the computer while it renders (or burns a CD or whatever), then something may go wrong and screw it up."

However, this is a thing of the past with OS X. With OS X, I would render and encode a movie, burn a CD, write email, play mp3s, work in photoshop, and download from the web ALL at the SAME time, and I would feel TOTALLY SECURE that NO FRAMES would be dropped and NO BURN WOULD GO BAD.

OS X is completely multithreaded and shares processor (single or dual) equally.

So that might make a render take 4 times longer, but if you can get other work done at the same time without worrying about corrupting a process, it might be totally worth it.

I say if you are just a video editor / renderer / compressor / focused on that, then the PC is the best choice these days.

But if you multitask and need rock solid reliability from the OS and applications, and you want to do everything at the same time, Mac OS X does it a lot better. When we get new chips some day, it will do it faster and better, too. Hulkaors would agree with me there!


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## kendall (Nov 16, 2002)

You're friend is mistaken.  I have a dual 1GHz P3 setup and I can burn CDs, rip music, watch movies and Photoshop all at the same time without worrying about something going wrong.

If your friend can't do all that with cycles to spare then something is wrong with his rig.

As for multitasking, Windows NT/2000/XP take the cake.  They are far superior to OS X with a lot less RAM.  Windows NT/2000/XP support SMP very well.  You can actually assign each app to a single processor and the level in which they are able to utilize that processor.  SMP with Windows NT/2000/XP is king.


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## Jason (Nov 17, 2002)

i say mistaken as well, my 700mhz athlon multi tasks better than my 800mhz g4

and the funny thing is, in most applications they are about equal speed... go figure on the mhz myth 

you ask, why use apple then?

im a designer and i like the os, so sue me, but hell does apple suck with hardware... and thats an understatement


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## Col. Sanders (Nov 23, 2002)

Haha! You are all mistaken! 
My pentium 4 can't multitask worth crap when i want to multitask, my music skips, I lose frames, the system hangs; on my mac, music is constant, everything is snappy and my video project is just fine. This board seems to be overrun with PC users who like to hear themselves talk. I don't know how some of your computers can't do what everyone elses can. I will admit lately some of our systems are beginning to get slower, as the death of the G4 looms, but you guys are exaggerating too much. You guys need to start a Windows forum for people who can't get away from using macs.


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## edX (Nov 23, 2002)

well, one thing that apple seems to have over pc's is consistency. my imac 400 g3 will work about as good as the next guys imac 400 g3. when you start comparing pc's of supposedly equal hardware, you find out that there is a vast range of quality and performance. more than can be accounted for by some of your average geek tweeking. at least apple makes it so you can compare apples to apples, instead of having to compare lemons to oranges.


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## kendall (Nov 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ed Spruiell _
> *well, one thing that apple seems to have over pc's is consistency. my imac 400 g3 will work about as good as the next guys imac 400 g3. when you start comparing pc's of supposedly equal hardware, you find out that there is a vast range of quality and performance. more than can be accounted for by some of your average geek tweeking. at least apple makes it so you can compare apples to apples, instead of having to compare lemons to oranges. *



One might say this is because with an iMac you can't upgrade the video card, sound card, hard drive (easily), monitor and so forth.  

Its pretty easy to have consistency when the user doesn't have a choice.


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## MacLuv (Nov 23, 2002)




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## MacLuv (Nov 23, 2002)




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## edX (Nov 23, 2002)

yea? and the news is?  

that's always been one of apple's points in controlling the hardware. it's not like a secret. how else to you prepose to deliver a guarenteed experience in computing? and the people like myself who buy all in one macs aren't concerned with all that hardware geek stuff. we have no interest in tinkering inside our macs that much. the most i've ever done, or wanted to do, was change my ram. that's an easy enough and practical enough task. most all in one owners wouldn't even feel comfortable doing that themselves. they'd pay compusa big bucks to do it. labor would probably cost more than the memory. and there are lots more people like that than there are people who want to play computer technician and hardware geek. the majority of computer uses want to do one thing - use their computer without hassles. only by controlling and limiting what's inside, can apple guarentee that will happen for them.

itanium - you say it like it's a bad thing, but for the average computer user, it's a blessing. like the stupid commercials say "it works" that way.


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## kendall (Nov 24, 2002)

I wasn't saying it like it was a bad thing.  It just seemed like you were trying to point out this revelation about Macs when you really can't blame the PC industry for having choices which are not available to some Mac users.

I'm sure if Mac users were able to upgrade a lot of the hardware in their iMac, they'd very well do so.  Then your idea of Macs being comparable from one to another wouldn't be possible.

PCs used to be very much like iMacs are today.  Consumers didn't have much of a choice of upgrading because each PC manufacturer had proprietary hardware.  As a user of PCs I can honestly say, thank god we moved past that stage.

As for "it works."  Tell me how well Quake 3 works or maybe FCP.  Probably not very well on your iMac because of the video card.  If those programs were something you were interested in running, your only option would be to buy a new Mac.  Cheapest desktop solution, $999 eMac.

For a PC user, all they'd have to do is upgrade the video card and CPU.  Maximum cost, maybe $200.  I think the PC slogan should be, "it keeps working."


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## genghiscohen (Nov 24, 2002)

"It keeps working," my gluteus maximus!
I have a lot of friends who use PCs.  *Every one* of them has at least one horror story about how trying to some simple task became a monster nightmare.
None of my Mac using friends ever have those experiences.


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## kendall (Nov 24, 2002)

Could it be because PC users out-number Mac users 20/1?

What are the chances of there being more PC related incidents?


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## edX (Nov 24, 2002)

I once had a mac experience that i thought was going to be a huge nightmare, but then i called apple support and they told me where the hole for sticking in the paper clip on my cd drive is, and all went smoothly. i've quickly and easily gotten out of this jam several times since then using this knowledge. 

ok, i'm feeling a bit smart assed tonite, but that is a true story. 

frankly i'm sick of people defending pc's on a mac forum. this place used to be a sanctuary for mac users to gather and feel good about themselves and their platforms and now all you multi-platform users take it so personally every time we bash a few windows. you ever check out what ignorant pc users say about macs and mac user? maybe people should be educating them instead of us? 

i'll probably delete this later, right now i'm just blowing off steam.


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## kendall (Nov 24, 2002)

You can make up things all night long to feel good about yourself but that doesn't make what you're saying true.

My Mac is the best.  It never crashes, its 10x faster than my PC and it gets me straight A's in school!  My PC is crap!  It crashes all the time.  Windows is the devil and Bill Gates can kiss my a**!

Feel better Ed?


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## kendall (Nov 24, 2002)

I think what multi-platform users try to do is bring a sense of reality to some Pro-Mac, Anti-PC discussions.


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## edX (Nov 24, 2002)

get your bs strait - 
billy gates is the devil and he can kiss my @ss. 

seriously - you've never heard me going around saying macs are perfect and they can't be improved. never. i can point you to a forum or two around here that provide indisbutable evidence otherwise. but that doesn't mean it's not better than windows and pc's in my experience as a computer user. always trying to dismiss opinions with 'evidence' and 'facts' is pretty pointless. people only change their opinions thru experience. normally it requires a significant emotional experience (s.e.e.)
and all the emotions i have experienced with prolonged pc use are unpleasant ones.


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## edX (Nov 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by itanium _
> *I think what multi-platform users try to do is bring a sense of reality to some Pro-Mac, Anti-PC discussions. *



already responded to some of this in my last posts, but i'll repeat, do you bother to do this with windows users as well? if so, how about giving us some of the myths you dispell with them?


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## MacLuv (Nov 24, 2002)




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## MacLuv (Nov 24, 2002)




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## MacLuv (Nov 24, 2002)




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## Jason (Nov 24, 2002)

sheesh you guys

pcs and macs are about the same IMO, most if not all ignorant people in the world use pc's, also pc's have a wild card to their hardware, so there are obviously going to be more issues

but in the end if you get a well built pc and a well built mac, and a somewhat intellegant person uses them both, they will for the most part have few problems

which is me  ive had few probs either way, and i love both platforms

if someone went about saying "mac osx sucks, it cant multitask, etc etc" i would defend it, if someone said "win xp sucks, it cant multitask etc etc" i would defend it, i call it "being real"

get over yourselves for once, they are MACHINES with software on them, who in the bloody hell cares which one is better? just use what works for you and go on with life

...

sorry for the rant 

tee hee


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## MacLuv (Nov 24, 2002)




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## edX (Nov 24, 2002)

yo Buddah  

i agree with your stance. at least in theory. as long as you accept that both are different and are going to appeal to different people. since i have used both, my opinion is that macs are better. that's my opinion and it applies to me. it applies to my perception of my experiences. i'm not trying to convince anybody else. i don't need to. and no amount of telling me this and telling me that is going to add to my experience. and honestly, would you want to dispell my personal perception and convert  me to pc's? just because i might overrate the mac experience in comparison with yours? in real life, i've never met anybody who has tried to sell me on pc's instead of macs that didn't work at best buys, circuit city, fry's or the lot of pc discount stores. I've had some people question my use of a mac, but never anybody get evangelical on me. and in return, i've never tried to sell anybody else on a mac. except my stepdad who insists upon believing that his son knows more than i do, even though his son never has anything to do with him except talk on the phone and borrow his van while i have helped him with his pc on several occasions. pc experts sell him on all that expandability stuff, but he doesn't do that work, so he pays for it to be done and it costs as much as a new g3 imac does. My Gf's son switched from macs to pc for college and had to return it for hardware repairs twice in the first year. When he visits, he doesn't ask to plug his laptop into out router, he uses the mac and never complains.

yes, when we talk about pc's, we are really talking about at least a hundred different types of computers that include dell, compaq, gateway, etc.so we really aren't being fair to the whole bunch. but if it's such a great platform hardware wise, shouldn't they all be about the same in terms of being able to run the os at least? but alas, as i mentioned, we are always going to be comparing lemons and oranges when comparing pc's. at least when we talk about macs, we know what we are talking about - a unique computer with a unique computing experience. you aren't going to get it on a dell. you aren't going to get it on a gateway. you can only get it from apple and you can be sure that there is a large user base of people who have gotten the same experience. 

so when people want to get excited about how much better macs are than pc's, keep in mind that is their experience and they are entitiled to it. ghz aren't part of it. and windows was a bad experience for these people. for unlike macs, it's not easy for somebody to go thru life and not have to experience windows and pcs. and regardless of what all the linux geeks here proclaim, the average pc experience is a windows experience. so that even if you had the best pc hardware ever made, you are stuck with windows. and some of us just don't like it. for whatever reasons. if you like windows fine. use it. just don't try to negate our perceptions with yours. that only devalues our perceptions and makes us feel devalued. give your perceptions, but not as arguments. just as a personal opinion. because in the end, which computer and os a person likes is nothing more than an opinion.

and buddah, most of this was more my general feelings about this than any direct accusation of the way you present your opinions. i don't mean to devalue your sense that both work for you. that's your opinion and i'm glad it empowers you to be able to enjoy both. It just doesn't work for me and a lot of other mac users. and i can't really speak for them, but i'm getting pretty tired of somebody having to try and put a rain cloud over them every time they get excited about the mac experience. if both are so good, then why not just let each kind of user enjoy what they use without having to make them seem like "they're just computers man"?


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## edX (Nov 24, 2002)

> Apple isn't a bubble, it's not a religion, it's not exempt from paying taxes to the IRS or making a profit for its shareholders. Bill Gates is not the devil, he is an intelligent business man who knows how to "make one's own luck". He's done more for the computing industry than all of Apple ever would.



and this site and forum isn't apple. want to bitch and moan about apple, do it to apple at apple's site. this site is for mac users. it's supposed to be a place to talk about our macs, celebrate the os x experience and help each other out. a place we can bond together as a community. if you don't like the koolaid, don't drink it. a year ago, that's what this site was. so yes, it is supposed to be a sanctuary for apple fans. there's plenty of places to bash us elsewhere on the web. We went thru this whole 'apple bashing' and flame baiting thing awhile back and a few people were removed under a zero tolerance for trolls policy. now it just seems like it's starting again and frankly, i'm getting too old and wise for this sh*t. 

it's one thing to correct some misunderstandings about what windows will and will not do in the name of reality. it's ok to discuss the relative advantages of mac vs pc hardware, but constant bashing of all things mac just because they're not following your agenda is another thing and it is getting old real fast. and i'm not pointing a finger just at you macluv. there are others and i would think they know who they are.


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## kendall (Nov 24, 2002)

Ed, you must sleep!  *puts Ed to bed*

Now stay there!


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## edX (Nov 24, 2002)

yea, i'm heading that way real soon. the chargers have the early game tomorrow. if i wake up in the morning and regret anything i said, i'll delete it. but i have a funny feeling i meant everything i said around the site tonite, i just might not have said it too well.  

it could be having gotten up so early for the ohio state game (GO BUCKEYES !! ) but you'd think i'd be in a good mood after them winning and heading to the BCS national championship game.


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## MacLuv (Nov 24, 2002)




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## Jason (Nov 24, 2002)

sorry ed, i just get sick of people saying that one is better than the other, when in the most basic sense of things they are the same

i understand preference, according to taste anyways

but i bet if i built you a pc, and you still had your mac, obviously you would love your mac still but unless you did something stupid you would run into few problems on the pc as well

generally most pc probs come from the giant manufacturers such as sony, dell, compaq etc, every pc related problem i have solved has been on these type of machines, not on ones that are built by someone trust worthy  so in my opinion i think its a little harsh to judge all of pc-dom on all the crappy cheaply built pcs being used by techno phobes out there

as far as converting someone either way, i think converting is a bullsh*t word for this anyways lol, when someone asks me for advice on what computer to get i first ask them what they like better, how much money they have etc etc, if someone says they need a fast, reliable computer for 1000 im not going to point them at a used G4, im going to point them at a new pc built by someone trustworthy, because it will save them money and it will work, but if they have money i will tell them well you can get a good mac or a really good pc, they will do about the same for you, its just mostly a difference in operating system and go from there

i treat them on equal ground because in my view they are very much equal, obviously i like some mac things better and i like some pc things better, its like owning a camaro and a mustang, most people would look at you weird, and almost everyone would tell you one is better than the other, when in reality one is better at straight performance, the other handles a bit better, one rides smoother as well, etc etc 

anyways i'll make it clear im not a mac, basher, i run a mac lab at a college and i have two macs at home and i trouble shoot all my friends macs, so i run into plenty of mac problems, i just think too many of the mac lovers out there are in denial that when a stupid person uses any machine its gonna break, just there are more people in general using pcs, which means more stupid people, which means more problems

(and no you arent stupid if you have a problem with a computer, you guys know what i mean)

and ed, you know i respect you, but i think its rather harsh to tell people to not defend something, that view is very much the same as telling african americans to not defend their rights in the south in the early to mid 1900's (overkill i know, but same concept if you think about it )

and yes ive defended macs in pc forums, but youd be surprised how many pc users like macs, they just dont use macs because of gaming or other specific programs or money or something


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## edX (Nov 24, 2002)

> sorry ed, i just get sick of people saying that one is better than the other, when in the most basic sense of things they are the same



buddah - i pretty much agree with all of your last post with the exception of your opening statement here. it's true if you define the "basic sense" as the fact that they are both computers and both will handle certain computing tasks like web surfing, word processing, cd burning, etc. but how they do these things is more different than similar in my opinion. and that is where preference comes in. and that is where one has to be "better" than the other for most people. and the people who come here are mac users and hence 99% of them have got the opinion that macs are better - better for them. we aren't talking about the unitiated here. like i said previously, we've all had experiences on pc's. unlike most pc users who have only seen macs, and not used them. yet the "better" aspects of the mac have to be experienced. they can't be translated into specs and features. they have to be subjectively determined by using a mac. and once one has experienced both os's, they are entitled to have the perception that one is superior to another. 

this is why this is a mac users' site and not a general computer users' site. we used to have a windows forum but practically nobody ever used it. so when cross platform users are here, they should have their mac caps on.

i also guess i have a hard time understanding why anybody would be upset with mac users being a bit over proud of their platform. out in the world we are sometimes bashed by people who don't know anything about macs. 3rd party manufacturers often treat us as second class citizens of the computing community, despite the fact that the imac is the number one selling computer model of all time. there are countless stories on this site about people who work in IT who have had to endure the derision of their co workers. some of those stories include happy endings of people who ended up eating their words once introduced to the osx experience.  but there are still many here who have to fight this fight in the real world at work on an everyday basis. why should they want to come here and fight it again? get my drift?

again, let me make it clear that i am speaking these things in general terms and not directing this specifically towrds you bobb. i think in general you do a pretty good job of being diplomatic about your educational interjections. i wish everybody would. it's often not what we say, but how we say it that affects others.


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## Jason (Nov 24, 2002)

indeed it is ed, i understand what you are saying, i mean for the most part though, the hard ware is the same besides the cpu and mobo, the casing is different but IMO thats superficial, reall the only thing different is the os, and even then if you look at the mac os and windows os years ago, they were fairly independent, and now they are slowly merging towards each other, getting more and more simlar with each build... im sure you guys will say windows copied mac and im sure others will say mac copied windows, but the fact is in a competitive environment companies borrow ideas to improve their products... which is happening between both systems

i have my pc and mac on right in front of me, and i can use either without hesitation or confusion, that says alot about the consistancy of both os's 

anyways regarding pc trolls and others that give you a hard time because you use a mac...

do you want to do eye for an eye and lower yourself to their level and play their games?

or do you want to be more mature and not worry too much about the trolls, and concentrate on facts?

i choose the later, i dont care what system is being discussed anywhere, if someone makes a comment as ignorant as a couple that have been posted here, im gonna take aim at it to educate the poster 

i under stand having a mac cap on here, thats all fine and dandy, i rarely bad mouth mac here, but to go to the point where you dont want users defending pc's is kinda far IMO

oh and as far as havng an opinion or preference on which os you like, go for it, i prefer some of osx and some of xp, i dont care about that, what i care about is when someone says "i like osx (or xp), xp (or osx) sucks cause all it does is crash and cant multitask" is just stupid and really doesnt do anything for the "mac community" all it does is show the willingness by whomever to make ignorant statments.

old saying:

opinions are like assholes, every one has them and they all stink


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## fryke (Nov 24, 2002)

Let's face it... There are people who look at the Macintosh as an advanced kind of computer. To them, a Windows machine is something lower, whatever speed it's running at. The Macintosh is the perfect tool for them. They create their computer based work faster and with more fun on a Macintosh than they could on a Windows machine. But the Macintosh is even more to them. They identify themselves with the Mac to a certain extent. They might seem a little strange to some of you reading this, but they prefer a Titanium PowerBook G4 with 500-1000 MHz to a Dell Latitude with a 2.4 GHz Intel P4m processor running Windows XP anytime. It's not that they don't SEE the label with that number you show them. They also know that there are benchmarks showing that some or other software is clearly running faster on that machine. It's that they feel better after they have done their work. It's that the part of the work where the computer DOESN'T crunch numbers without user interaction, namely the USER INTERACTION, is faster for them on a Macintosh. They feel that the computer is working with them and for them, instead of the feeling they get when using a Windows machine: That they're working against the computer towards a certain goal.

I'm one of those crazy Macheads. I have a PC under my desk here, too, and it's a nice machine that works quite well (for a PC). It's running my web development environment on Red Hat 8.0. It has also got Windows 2000 on it for those times when I need to use some very important Windows software (basically that's Kazaa and the TV Tuner as well as IE6 to test websites).

Next year, the web development will move to my PowerBook - as soon as I can afford a new machine. I won't sell the PC (it's too old to make some real money, and PCs are dirt cheap anyway), but its main purpose will be webbrowsing and watching TV. And that wouldn't change if it had an Athlon 1800 XP processor. Or a Pentium 4 running at 2.4 GHz. Or at 3.06 GHz with Hyperthreading. See?


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## MacLuv (Nov 24, 2002)




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## stealth (Nov 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by BuddahBobb _
> *
> ...generally most pc probs come from the giant manufacturers such as sony, dell, compaq etc, every pc related problem i have solved has been on these type of machines, not on ones that are built by someone trust worthy  so in my opinion i think its a little harsh to judge all of pc-dom on all the crappy cheaply built pcs being used by techno phobes out there...
> *



..so what ur sayin Buddah is that pcs that are built by trust worthy ppl have very few problems? well.. i dont think soooo.... ive used such computers and theyve all had the same crappy problems thanx to WINDOWS  of course that also depends on what someone does with his computer. if all you is play solitaire than i guess u wont have that many problems.
my point is that either way they have many problems .. especially the ones from giant companies as u said earlier.

What makes Apple even more superior to PCs is that it  sells ready made machines which work perfectly coordinated!!! Compaq, Dell or any other giant company are INCAPABLE of accomplishing such a thing, and its a shame that they make so much money out of it.
im sure uve opened up a pc box and an apple box; the ones like a jungle and the other one is looks as neat and tidy as my room. i guess any trust worthy guy would love working with an apple machine than a pc because it just makes everyones life easier  !!!


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## fryke (Nov 24, 2002)

Part of my post tells you why I don't really care about benchmarks. The 10 or 12 hours a day I spend working on my projects, I don't have the time to look at benchmarks and think about whether or not a fast PC would improve my workflow. I tend to evaluate properly, buy the machine that fits my needs and then work on it.

For me, it really doesn't matter whether I can't deliver a project on time because I went nuts with Windows at 500 MHz or 3 GHz.

What matters is that I can deliver the project on time.

What matters is that I feel proud about my work.

What matters is that I have fun doing my work.

I see a strange tendency on boards like this. The tendency is that people who will neither buy a 2'999$ Macintosh computer nor a 2'699$ PC whine about benchmarks of such machines. They want everything and everything for free.

There's always room for improvement. And I sure as hell would be glad if Apple could release a 4 GHz PowerMac at MWSF along with a 3.5 GHz PowerBook. But it doesn't really matter to me, as I'm going to buy my next computer between March & August 2003, depending on my liquidity.

And I think I already know what that machine will be like. I guess it'll be a PowerBook G4 Titanium. I don't know the exact features, but the chain of reason will go something like this:

I have a TiBook 500 today. I can do my work on that machine still faster than on any PC I could buy. But it's a bit old and I'd like to have better battery life as well as a better resolution screen. And maybe a faster harddrive. Oh, I see, there are new TiBooks now. They run at 1.x GHz and the top model at 1.X GHz. Guess they'll both top mine at 500 MHz. I'm a bit low on money, so this time I'll choose the lower-end one. Ah, no, they've cut prices since I bought my TiBook 500. I _can_ buy the highend one again. I'll do that. The Ti has never let me down, although I was sad I couldn't buy the 800 MHz version at the time it was released. (You may see here that the PC was left out of the chain at the very beginning for obvious reasons.)


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## hulkaros (Nov 24, 2002)

OK... This is getting nowhere but I have to say this:
PCs DO suck!

Why? Because:
-No matter how fast they are after some time (6 months at the most) they start to act strange (yes, including the Windows XP)... and yes they need doctoring (checking/fixing disks, defrag, check/fix registry, etc.)
-Multitasking on a PC? A PC running Windows (any version)? You joking right? You cannot be sure that you job will be completed doing the following stuff at the same time: Downloading stuff, browsing the internet, listening to the music, playing a video clip, watching a DVD, burning a CD, encoding a DVD, have other apps doing their things in the background... More often that the PC powers users would like or admit for that matter, the PC will freeze, crash, damage the CD/DVD or simply chose not to obey at what its user wants to do!
-Windows included apps are useless compared to Jaguar's apps
-Windows network tools are plain dumb! Only on Pro versions they are somewhat worthy compared to Jaguar's
-Basic Windows functions like browsing your computer, copying/moving files, etc. are dumb! Since when must a user open a window JUST to see what disks, etc. his/her system has?
-Multiprocessor support in Windows? Yes ONLY if a user buys the Pro versions!!!
-Managing multiple apps in windows? Did you ever tried to teach anyone that all those "buttons" on the taskbar ARE NOT active apps but are TSR applications, quick launch items AND the apps that are currently open?
-Explorer.exe: This name by itself gives me the creeps! How many times a Windows user faces a message in a month telling him/her that explorer.exe caused an illegal thing... Please someone call the police!
-Install/Deinstall apps in Windows? Only if you have a degree in puzzle solving! I'm sure that I am not the only one that uninstalled an app in windows only to find out that my app didn't completely deinstalled!!!
-Windows stability compared to Jaguar's? This one ALWAYS makes me laugh! Yes you can compare the two only if all you do is run 1-2 apps a day...
-Windows appearance: This one is REALLY funny! Because M$ cannot produce a nice UI they copy WindowsBlinds skin technology just to create the... HumanTasteBlinds! While one can say that Jaguar stands in his/her way of changing schemes at least he/she CAN'T deny that Aqua is ultra-cool!
-Mac is the best just because it has the Columns view (HA HA HA)
-Mac is the best simply because it has a fair dose of cool factor across the line of mac-related products while PCs (including those Dull ones) can look the Mac but will never touch it: Hey, what can I say? When I want something, be it women, cars, computers, ANYTHING, I want the coolest, better looking, easiest to get along, ones and not just the fastest ones! I don't know what to say to a PC user when he/she asks me: How come and Macs are so cool? Hey, maybe its because that after all, Apple is doing something right! (HE HE)

Last (for now) but not least: Don't forget this... If PCs are THAT good, how come Macs are still around? Come on! The answer is too easy: Macs are for the Elite computer users while PCs are just for the mainstream!

What else one can say? We are on mac related forum and we have PC users annoying us... ALL THE TIME!!! Could it be because we have something to like in our computers and they don't? I think that's the naked truth and they simply CANNOT handle it


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## MacLuv (Nov 24, 2002)




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## MacLuv (Nov 24, 2002)




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## fryke (Nov 24, 2002)

Problem is, there are a LOT of iWhiners around here lately. I think the moment Apple has more than 5% market share, I will have to be only on Mac forums that have a "whine and be banned for life" strategy.

Maybe we should become a bit more elitary again. I know, flamewars are part of the fun of a forum, and I don't mind taking off the gloves sometimes on a board, too. But I really do hate the two months before a new version of Mac OS X is released (you know, when suddenly there are a hundred people thinking that it will be a free upgrade or at least 69$ or something like that)...

Well, if you too think there should be a room for more educated discussions about the same things (Mac OS X, Chimera , OmniWeb  and - of course - Macs in General) or if you know one, drop me a line via a private message on here.


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## MacLuv (Nov 24, 2002)




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## edX (Nov 24, 2002)

> Man, you mention one thing that the PC world may have over Macs and rather than being able to discuss it rationally, everyone jumps in like it's the end of the world. It's like telling a devoted Christian there's no God.



which is one of those things i have long since developed the good sense not to do.  

you know what i like about Hulk - he is a mac fanatic. i don't tend to think of myself that way, i'm more of a devotee. but i am proud that apple has users like Hulk. i know he gets a bit exagerated at times, but at least he's excited about using a mac. and at the same time, i don't think he wants windows and pc's to disappear - he makes his living fixing them. from his point of view, if windows and pc's were to magically disappear, he would be like the maytag repairman commercials. 

but in his exageration, he tends to get people who have invested in pc's to be a bit defensive. but it's just his perception of the way things work.  notice that he doesn't ever say that people who like pc's suck. any assumption of that is purely an association in the reader's mind.

but to be fair, i must admit to a few things i think he misrepresents in his enthusiasism. 

1st - mac apps can screw up too. we are always at the mercy of the developers. they don't always take the time to get it right. i'm not sure if this a matter of them putting more attention into windows' apps because of the larger market share or their not understanding the mac platforma s well or what.

2nd - i've never considered macs as being for the elite. quite the opposite. i've always considered them to be the computers for everybody else. more for people who want to do something else with theirlives than fsck around with their computers all the time. in using a mac, we tend to get an elitist attitude because we feel we were smart enough to pay for the luxury of the experience. and we wonder why the average joe on the street isn't smart enough (?) to check it out and see this for themselves.


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## MacLuv (Nov 24, 2002)




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## edX (Nov 24, 2002)

he he  

hey i wasn't going to quote myself, but since you have....(see, i knew you would read that MacLuv  )

i probably should be saying "computer idiots" because most mac users i have known personally exhibit above average intelligence in some other area(s) of their lives. one reason they buy a mac is so they don't have to spend 2 weeks learning to use it and another 2 weeks getting it to work how they want it to. I still believe that the mac is the easiest new user experience available.

which brings me back to another of your points MacLuv - that os x loses a few brownie points for user friendlyness. i have to agree with you. eek: ) for me the gains have been worth it. and i think most of these complications that have been added into os x only affect people who are power users and geeks. My gf only started using computers at all in the last 5 years. her major experience has been with pc's at work yet we both agreed that a mac would make more sense for her at home due to my expertise in it. but frankly, she rarely relies upon my expertise. after her first 2 days on her mac with os 9, she was pretty comfortable doing what she wanted. within 2 months i switched her boot to os x and had to spend a little time teaching her the dock and a few other differences. i've probably spent 2-3 hrs teaching her everything she needs to do what she wants to up to this point. and another hour or 2 just doing some things that it wasn't worth making her try to remember. that's been in the year and a half since she got her mac. so unless you are trying to do some more complicated tasks than the average computer user requires, os x is still easy to use. but when you start getting into some of the more advanced aspects, it gets a bit 'nixy for my tastes. but if that is what it takes to give me the overall experience then, i'm willing to live with this without cussing too loudly.


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## Jason (Nov 24, 2002)

*OK... This is getting nowhere but I have to say this:
PCs DO suck!

Why? Because:
-No matter how fast they are after some time (6 months at the most) they start to act strange (yes, including the Windows XP)... and yes they need doctoring (checking/fixing disks, defrag, check/fix registry, etc.)
*

funny my pc has been running for about 3 years now, from windows 98, ME, 2000 and XP Pro, i have yet to run into my computer just destroying itself after 6 months, yes i do doctor, i take care of my computers, i take care of my mac in the same way, and i take care of the labfull of macs as well in the same way, its called preventive maintanence

*-Multitasking on a PC? A PC running Windows (any version)? You joking right? You cannot be sure that you job will be completed doing the following stuff at the same time: Downloading stuff, browsing the internet, listening to the music, playing a video clip, watching a DVD, burning a CD, encoding a DVD, have other apps doing their things in the background... More often that the PC powers users would like or admit for that matter, the PC will freeze, crash, damage the CD/DVD or simply chose not to obey at what its user wants to do!*

im surprised you can do all that on a mac, i cant do all that on my mighty quicksilver without anything missing a beat, and i cant do that on my pc either, oh and im surprised YOU can watch a video clip, play music and watch a dvd all at the same time while you are working dling files and browsing the internet, thats pretty amazing in itself

lets get real, how about doing thins while burning a cd? well in my experience, osx splits up program priority and when you are burning something, the priority is usually the highest for it, thus no crap burns (or few, cause i have had a few) but everything else is rather slow, it works much the same way in windows xp

*-Windows included apps are useless compared to Jaguar's apps*

i think the newest version of windows media player is pretty useful, it plays my music and movies, has play lists for music, has net radio etc, i tunes has better visualizations, and playlist management, quicktime is a very good simple tool as well, but over all i do agree that apple includes some pretty good apps with its system, most of which you can find a windows equal IMO

oh and they definately arent useless, otherwise they wouldnt be there

*-Windows network tools are plain dumb! Only on Pro versions they are somewhat worthy compared to Jaguar's*

im not super up to date on networking stuff, but i find that putting two pcs on the same network is easier than doing stuff between two macs on the same network, and being able to control shares etc is much easier in windows, i dont know, do you like setting up samba? or for that matter using the terminal to either?

but over all i think they are fairly equal in that sense, its a big improvement from apple over the classic os's of past

*-Basic Windows functions like browsing your computer, copying/moving files, etc. are dumb! Since when must a user open a window JUST to see what disks, etc. his/her system has?*

just dumb? i have no valid argument for that 

so mac users dont have to open windows or anything to see their files and disks? this is new to me

if you are talking about spring loaded folders though, you have a point, thats a feature i would like to see on windows, and guess what i got it via a 3rd party app so im fine

*-Multiprocessor support in Windows? Yes ONLY if a user buys the Pro versions!!!*

dont know much about this, but that seems like that would be false, but i dont know, can you point me to this fact? thanks 

*-Managing multiple apps in windows? Did you ever tried to teach anyone that all those "buttons" on the taskbar ARE NOT active apps but are TSR applications, quick launch items AND the apps that are currently open?*







*-Explorer.exe: This name by itself gives me the creeps! How many times a Windows user faces a message in a month telling him/her that explorer.exe caused an illegal thing... Please someone call the police!*

i havent seen the illegal operation since the msdos kernal days

compare it to the classic mac bomb

*-Install/Deinstall apps in Windows? Only if you have a degree in puzzle solving! I'm sure that I am not the only one that uninstalled an app in windows only to find out that my app didn't completely deinstalled!!!*

control panel > add/remove programs

it will remove everything except for some preference files and the what not

in mac world, there is generally no uninstall program, and where there is, the preference files are usually still around within the system

*-Windows stability compared to Jaguar's? This one ALWAYS makes me laugh! Yes you can compare the two only if all you do is run 1-2 apps a day...*

well then laugh away, my pc runs just as smoothly and reliably as my mac, i guess my mac must have a problem 

*-Windows appearance: This one is REALLY funny! Because M$ cannot produce a nice UI they copy WindowsBlinds skin technology just to create the... HumanTasteBlinds! While one can say that Jaguar stands in his/her way of changing schemes at least he/she CAN'T deny that Aqua is ultra-cool!*

i enjoy the silver luna theme, it looks good, while not being too gaudy with eye candy

i wish osx allowed specific control over effects, so i use duality to use a nonstripped version of aqua

aqua to me is too much eye candy

and this argument is soley based on opinions, so you are right with this one 

*-Mac is the best just because it has the Columns view (HA HA HA)*

true, columns view is useful, although it doesnt provide many options for viewing it, i.e. being able to have multiple colums instead of just name in the columns view etc

this is another option i wish windows had, but i prefer using menus to navigate quickly to a file anyways, which again is an opinion/preference

best for having column view? that seems like an over statement to me... so if windows implemented this tommorow would they be the best as well? 

*-Mac is the best simply because it has a fair dose of cool factor across the line of mac-related products while PCs (including those Dull ones) can look the Mac but will never touch it: Hey, what can I say? When I want something, be it women, cars, computers, ANYTHING, I want the coolest, better looking, easiest to get along, ones and not just the fastest ones! I don't know what to say to a PC user when he/she asks me: How come and Macs are so cool? Hey, maybe its because that after all, Apple is doing something right! (HE HE)*

this is true, mac products are beautiful for the most part, but you get what you pay for, if you pay 2000 for a computer it should look good and perform well, where as if you pay 1000 for a pc it probably wont look that great

ever seen some of the nifty pc cases out there? there are some absolutely beautiful ones, im not talking about the pc companies cases either im talking about the ones you buy at a store


*Last (for now) but not least: Don't forget this... If PCs are THAT good, how come Macs are still around? Come on! The answer is too easy: Macs are for the Elite computer users while PCs are just for the mainstream!*

its called market niche and a little help from other people.

*What else one can say? We are on mac related forum and we have PC users annoying us... ALL THE TIME!!! Could it be because we have something to like in our computers and they don't? I think that's the naked truth and they simply CANNOT handle it      *

yes there are the ocassional trolls, but do you need to bring yourself to their level with these types of posts? how about educate yourself sometime, it will make us all look better as a whole


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## MacLuv (Nov 24, 2002)




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## edX (Nov 24, 2002)

oh yea, one other misconception that i found in Hulk's post -



> -No matter how fast they are after some time (6 months at the most) they start to act strange (yes, including the Windows XP)... and yes they need doctoring (checking/fixing disks, defrag, check/fix registry, etc.)



one of my personal pet peeves is mac users who believe that they are somehow exempt from doing this kind of regular maintainence. especially the ones who come from linux and want to try and convince everybody that unix never needs this kind of thing - all the while ignoring the fact that the file system and corresponding volume structures are still mac based. 

any mac that is used regularly by a power user will need to have these things done on a regular basis in order to keep from slowing down and even to help prevent early hardware destruction. don't kid yourself that this stuff is not important on a mac or that fsck can fix every problem. fsck is beginners stuff compared to some of the things that will go wrong thru corruption and fragmentation.

now the upside is that we have much better tools for performing thses tasks than windows users do. Diskwarrior/Plus optimizer and Techtool pro are still the best. maybe Hulk's real point is that windows users tend to swear by norton which tends to cause more problems than it cures.


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## fryke (Nov 24, 2002)

Maybe I'm too MUCH a power user for you, Ed, but I usually just reinstall Mac OS X after about three months. I have a very clean backup system. It takes me less than an hour to have everything back in place after reformatting the internal harddrive.

Must say: I don't trust those disk tools. Really. Too many times I've heard about users complaining that this or that tool destroyed all of their work. And do companies that sell you disk tools pay the intellectual property you lose if something goes wrong? I don't think so. I'm sure their license agreements state something about it.

I rather use common sense. Backups, backups, backups. It's the only thing that helps.

Btw... At the moment I'm a bit irritated that Apple's Disk Tool _always_ finds permissions to repair. and the command line utility 'diskutil' has quite a strange message when you 'sudo diskutil repairPermissions /':


```
The privileges have been partially verified or repaired on the selected volume.
```

That's not _very_ helpful, Apple.


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## Jason (Nov 24, 2002)

for some reason i've always found 

"the volume appears to be ok"

funny  like they dont want to commit or something hehe


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## edX (Nov 24, 2002)

> Maybe I'm too MUCH a power user for you, Ed, but I usually just reinstall Mac OS X after about three months. I have a very clean backup system.



he he

that's my other pet peeve - people whose first solution to solving a problem is to reformat. you must have a relatively small number of apps and files to have to back up. on the other hand, myself and others i have talked with don't have enough room to just dump every thing somewhere and then throw it back on. now that i have my 2nd external, i could dump the internal to it and reformat it if i wanted to, but thre's a good chance that some of my problems might be in files and apps, etc so i'm just putting the problem back that way. but i keep system folders on all 3 drives and so all need regular maintainence at somepoint or another. reformatting just isn't a realistic option for many people. but if tht works for you fryke, then by all means go for it. however i've also seen you help people enough to know that you are aware of a lot of answers to problems and how to fix them without reformatting so we know i'm not really talking to you here. (i'll also admit that i don't want to spend an hour or more at my computer babysitting reinstalling, transferring files & folders, etc.. i just run a repair or defragmentation app when i go to bed and click ok when i wake up. then reboot while i go back and make my first cup of coffee.  ) 

oh, and repairing is not a replacement for backing up important and irreplaceable files. those i can fit on a cd or 2. i can always rerip my cd's and gather up all the shareware i collect to experiment with. but frankly, both diskwarrior/plus optimizer and techtool pro are 99% safe from data loss should an interuption occur. unlike norton which is 99% sure to dump your drive in the process. 

should we rename this thread "as the thread turns"


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## Jason (Nov 24, 2002)

how about "the drive and the fragmented"?


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## hulkaros (Nov 25, 2002)

...answer to the stuff that MacLuv, 
BuddahBobb, Ed posted here... BUT: I will not!

I will just say this: You guys can whine AS MUCH AS you like about the Mac platform but the truth is that its quality and performance are far above ANY PC out there running Windows (any version)...

And as for MacLuv, BuddahBobb, Itanium and other PC lovers around here... Hey, guys keep up the good work! To other Mac users of this forum you may be able to tell them how much you enjoy working/playing with your PCs but to me, forget about it... I know the truth: In the end you WANT and PREFER Macs more than PCs  

You know people that have 2-4 (or even more) years old Macs and still be able to like them and you envy them... You envy in general people like Fryke, Ed, me who seem to enjoy our Macs MORE than you will EVER be able to enjoy your PCs...

Last, Ed I thought that you more than any other member of this forum that you would be able to understand the tone of my previous post: Maybe a second or third reading? Try to read it as a peek & poke script


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## stealth (Nov 25, 2002)

well BuddahBobb.. u must be one lucky guy since everythin on ur pc seems to work just fine  

im 17 years old ... im the only guy in my class who has a mac. from our conversations i have not heard ONE person who does not have a problem with his/her PC. it might be that the cd burner doesnt work, windows displays all kinds of error messages, their computer freezes all the time.. and the list goes on and on !
most of these kids dont know much about PCs, thats why they run into problems, because they themselves could cause problems when tryin to manage their files.....
WHAT I LOVE about macs is that they are SO easy to use. for example: in order to uninstall a program all u have to do is DRAG it to the trash and delete it. 
its a SHAME that when a teenager tries to use  a computer for the first time, all he/she gets is problems instead of making his/her life easier. t

as for multitasking. in mac os x, i DO burn cds and listen to music and surf on the internet and download programs and..and and.. all at the same time without any problems. With PCs, while im burning cds i stay AS FAR AWAY AS POSSIBLE from the PC because from my past experience it seems like the most sensible thing to do !!!

anywayz... my point is that I ENJOY USING MY MAC, its even more interesting day after day. try sayin that to an of my PC classmates...they will start laughing because for them its a TORTURE when they have to use their PC


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## fryke (Nov 25, 2002)

No, Ed, I *do* have many apps installed. But the 60G external has more space than my 40G internal drive.

I backup:

1.) My Home folder. It contains basically everything important.

2.) /Library - It contains 'Application Support', so I don't have to reinstall the apps later... and:

3.) /Applications - which, of course, contains my Apps.

Then I really _do_ a reinstall of OS X, apply all the updates (which I have on my external 60G already) and then copy 1, 2 and 3 over.

Finding and correcting errors on a harddrive (or some system prefs) can take hours or days. Such a reinstall takes - like I said - about an hour.


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## Jason (Nov 25, 2002)

to the hulk

get it right, i am a computer lover in general, i love macs, i love pcs, i love em all, i am not biased, but i do find offense in that you will not counter any argument with any relevence, just opinionated dribble such as "macs are better, pcs suck" you are no better than the pc trolls that come here, just your opinion is more welcome

stealth, like you said, those users ran into problems because they dont know how to use windows, and thats where most pc problems come from, ignorance. macs are for the most part easier (although osx is a little more complicated than people would like to think) and its a great computer for a beginner, no doubt. having knowledge of your appliances makes the use of them easier in general, same goes for computers. (oh and the "it just works" thing that most mac users believe in, i wont touch that because most of my independant tech help goes to users who have macs, go figure )

i do enjoy my pc still, and its only a 700mhz athlon, much slower than my 800mhz g4 right? oh wait it starts up faster and the os is much snappier, and its only slightly slower in most ps tests, sheesh, piece of sh*t, and to think i spent 800 dollars making it... what a shame 

anyways i do grow tired of this, you guys complain about pc trolls, but you seem to love mac trolls, oh well... tis life


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## mindbend (Nov 25, 2002)

In response to the actual topic of this thread:

I read the speed comparison review. It is very, very bad news for Apple. And I mean BAD. Apple's next lineup has got to be amazing, just to even be worth mentioning in the same sentence.

I love my Macs (hell, I've dropped almost ten grand this year alone in hardware), but this speed thing is WAY out of control. I have given Apple a two year window, at which point I will reevaluate and then consider jumping ship to the dark (but fast) side.

To those who do not need the fastest machines available, I am jealous. If I do switch, I will miss it like you wouldn't believe. My first Mac literally changed my life. But, facts are facts, speed is quantifiable, while the Mac experience is more qualitative. I may be willing to give up a bit of quality for outrageous speed.

In fact, I am currently beginning to build a library of PC software in the event that I make the switch. Unfortunately, it will all be bootlegged as there is no way in hell I'm repaying for all of it, at least not right up front. And this is after spending all of last year finally going legit in the Mac world. Holy crap was that expensive!

Here's to hoping Apple really impresses me over the coming months2 years. 

Sad, sad, day for me.


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## hulkaros (Nov 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by BuddahBobb _
> *to the hulk
> 
> get it right, i am a computer lover in general, i love macs, i love pcs, i love em all, i am not biased, but i do find offense in that you will not counter any argument with any relevence, just opinionated dribble such as "macs are better, pcs suck" you are no better than the pc trolls that come here, just your opinion is more welcome
> ...



You got it all wrong pal! All wrong! You cannot say that you can love all of them: It is redudant! In the end a man got to do what a man got to do: Select which side to love! You cannot possibly love two things at the same time... Cause if you think you can, you got the love part ALL wrong!

Also, you want to tell me that if money is not a problem you will still buy a PC? Power to you if you say yes but telling around that you love all computers? Are you sure you are not biased? Come on! Get your act straight...

My act at least is clear: I LOVE MACS... Hell, who am I to love all computers? Buddah? Bob?  

To you I am a troll to me it is called to know what I really want/need/love in this life or the next one  

As for having a serious debate with people like you: Why? Just to make fun of me instead of looking at your shortcomings? I told something earlier and you made fun of me... I said: "Multiprocessor support in Windows? Yes ONLY if a user buys the Pro versions!!!" and you replied: "dont know much about this, but that seems like that would be false, but i dont know, can you point me to this fact? thanks  "

YOU are making fun of ME and you don't know even the basics of Windows! Browse www.microsoft.com and learn some more things about Windows because it seems that you don't know THAT much about them... Or if you prefer you don't know ENOUGH about them! And still instead of just asking me you are making fun of me! Yes, this is so polite and gentle! And if this was NOT enough you continued to insult me with your above reply... A serious debate with you and other PC lovers here? Maybe in an alternate reality, parallel universe or something cause BuddaBob you have SO many things to learn about PCs and I am not going to teach them to you... I get paid for this kind of things! You friend think and want us to think that you are unbiased and correct but you got it all wrong! If you are unbiased then I really am The Incredible HULK!!! Anyways, enough playing with you: I have a more important matter to attend... Like counting the days of my new PowerBook's (G4/1GHz/DVD-R) arrival  

Ed? Was this hostile post? What about BuddaBob's? Was it gentle? Polite? Politician/lawyer's way to handle things? Yes! Nice way of replying? Hell no! People like this should learn when they got to be the sheep and when they got to be the wolf...

As for the original debate of Macs being slower than PCs based on that crappy article... Speed doesn't mean always better! P4/3GHz is faster than XBOX/PS2/GAMECUBE but in the end in order to play their games I need to buy one of those toys! Or if I need to take my family on a vacation I wouldn't want that Ferrari... I would choose that slow VW Station Wagon instead! I could go on and on but I hope guys that you got the message... I just hope


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## stealth (Nov 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by BuddahBobb _
> *
> stealth, like you said, those users ran into problems because they dont know how to use windows, and thats where most pc problems come from, ignorance. macs are for the most part easier (although osx is a little more complicated than people would like to think) and its a great computer for a beginner, no doubt. having knowledge of your appliances makes the use of them easier in general, same goes for computers. (oh and the "it just works" thing that most mac users believe in, i wont touch that because most of my independant tech help goes to users who have macs, go figure )
> *



my point buddah is that begginers who are only 17 o 18 years old and are studdying their ass off in order to get into university should not be FORCED to deal with these problems. even technicians after many years of experience and hard work cant figure out many PC problems, while most mac problems can be solved within this forum  ... u expect these "ignorant" ppl to learn how to fix overcome these problems that pop out of nowhere? id say they would need a lot of ur finest "tech help" in order to become as succesful as you, and have almost NO problem with these fabulous PC systems and this extraordinay OS called Windows


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## Jason (Nov 25, 2002)

hulk, so im only allowed to like one thing? i cant like both? i have to choose sides? thats bull IMO whats next your going to tell to only like a certain  type of car? a certain race of people? much like you are entitled to like or love what you want so am i, and i like all computers

i dont get your need to continuously call me a pc lover, as if i dislike apple and mac's themselves, if i did, i would have a g4 and an ibook now would i?

and tell me where i am not being unbiased, never did i say anywhere that the pc was better overall or that a mac was better overall, they both have their strong points and their weak points, even you the veritable mac lover should be able to admit that

i never once claimed to know everything about windows, hell a couple times i bluntly said i dont know, if i am incorrect about somthing PLEASE tell me what i am incorrect about instead of just saying that i have it all wrong. obviously i must be doing something right because ive fived many pcs and macs and mine have never had any serious problems outside of things i cant control. or is everyone on the notion that i must just be lucky because im the only person in the universe with a working pc?

i asked a valid question, i dont know if non pro window's oses support multi processor or not, i asked and you could simply answer, and for the record i didnt insult you by asking. i obviously dont know about multiprocessor support, so i asked, how is that an insult? i am unclear on this because quite frankly i havent worked with a non-pro version of windows in a few years, i apologize for offending you by asking you a question.

and whats the need to call on ed? have i done something wrong by trying to clear up facts? you have continued to supply just opinion, and when i ask for clarification on fact you tell me i insult you? thats rather odd IMO. 

oh and since i clarified i am unbiased, im guessing you are the incredible hulk, i look forward to seeing you in theaters next year 

to mr stealth

almost every mac problem i have had to solve has been the result of an ignorant user, just like your windows friends. in order to operate a vehicle safely you must learn how to use it. the same type of deal goes for computers, in order to use a computer successfully without any problems you need to know how to use it and how it works.

as far as your techs, tell them that they are screwed because they are working with a lab environment. the computers are being "studentized" as i call it. Like i said previously, I run a mac lab (along with another tech), and those computers arent the most reliable things in the world, why? because students are learning on them, we try our best to keep them running well and do a fairly good job of it IMO but are we perfect? no. Are there problems? yes. This happens when many many students use these computers. The easy answer would to have a system where the computer reverts to a clean slate each time its restarted but thats not a feasable solution really because of other reasons. 

when i say i have yet to run into a problem with pcs or macs that means my personal computers and only mine

i see it as obvious that my views on the computing world as a whole are not welcome here, which is a shame, because like someone elses signature... 

the mind works best when open

so i apologize for defending myself, and defending pcs from insults and arguments that are not backed up.


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## fryke (Nov 25, 2002)

"You shall have no other computer beside me." - Macintosh Colour Classic, 1993.


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## hulkaros (Nov 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by BuddahBobb _
> *hulk, so im only allowed to like one thing? i cant like both? i have to choose sides? thats bull IMO whats next your going to tell to only like a certain  type of car? a certain race of people? much like you are entitled to like or love what you want so am i, and i like all computers
> i dont get your need to continuously call me a pc lover, as if i dislike apple and mac's themselves, if i did, i would have a g4 and an ibook now would i?
> and tell me where i am not being unbiased, never did i say anywhere that the pc was better overall or that a mac was better overall, they both have their strong points and their weak points, even you the veritable mac lover should be able to admit that
> ...



Let's clear this first: My english are not THAT good but... I said something about LOVE the Macs and you said that you LOVE all kind of computers... Based on word LOVE (and this is what I feel about the Mac in general) I said that you cannot possibly LOVE all of them! Then you went on and changed the LOVE into LIKE... Then yes... Of course you can like 1000 things at the same time... Yes I like Athlon XP, Opteron, SGI, Sparcs, Amiga, et al but I LOVE the Mac! It is different thing to love something than just like it...

As for "just" asking me about multiproc support: If it was just asking then you wouldn't mention that: "but that seems like that would be false"... Am I the only one that thinks that this is simply ironic? I mentioned in this very forum MANY facts about Windows and ALWAYS people who "like" PCs feel like just argue for the sake of it! If you are trying to convince me that your pre-previous post was not ironic towards ME then you must think that you are discussing with a kid or something and believe me I'm beyond of being a kid... Ironic (or maybe after all just ignorant) answers of yours on your pre-previous post were these (and not only):

-I said that it is difficult to teach to a newbie that all those icons, menus, buttons on Windows screen are not just apps and you went on and put a picture describing the thing I was saying just to show me what? That you agree with me that it is a difficult a thing to learn to a newbie or that simply want to make me look dumb? Don't reply, I know the correct answer...
-Also, regarding uninstalling apps in Windows: You want to tell me that 50% of the time (believe me is not more) when you uninstall apps/games/etc you never got a message telling you that some items didn't remove or that you have to restart? Hell, man what are you doing with your PC? Playing/installing/uninstalling Solitaire only? Also, when you uninstall NOT only the majority of software leaves un-needed dlls, ini, cfg, sys files here and there but also leaves garbage inside the registry... This can creat in the future (or too soon) Windows misbehavior! And guess what you did? You compared this with the garbage preferences of Mac! This is child's play compared to Windows garbages!
-Last when I mentioned the well know fact that in order for someone in Windows to view his/her disks has to open a window while in Mac you view them on the desktop all the time you said:"so mac users dont have to open windows or anything to see their files and disks? this is new to me "... You want to tell me that this is NOT irony on your part? Oh... Please! And this is before I mention than in Windows Xtra Pain in order for your to view your computer's disks you have to click the Start button and then the My Computer (of course I know that you can change via properties but you cannot avoid the fact that the factory settings of Windows Xtra Pain are plain dumb! One other FUNNY & DUMB thing is than in order to Restart or Sleep you have actually first to click Start then Shut Down then Restar/Sleep... Get it? Start Shut Down Sleep (this is plain dumb and yes I know it's from M$... what else did you expect from them?)

I could go on and on but I know that in the end you will try to manipulate words, phrases, etc. just to make me look a bad person... Just like the catch phrase you mentioned (and I laughed with it cause you should read it back to you before posting it for me & that Stealth fella...): "the mind works best when open" Most of the time friend the mind cannot possibly work open! That's why we teach to people that if they want to succeed on doing anything on this life they have to concentrate/focus on their high targets... Think big or go home! Or simply Think Different! 

I'm sure Hitler had an open mind too! Or Bill Gates (he said many times this and always this gives me the creeps): My dream is one PC in each and every house around the world... And he did it! But really could you picture a world of computer without Apple or Amiga for that matter? If M$ & IBM dictated the beige and black colors uppon computers it was Apple that gave them color! Keyboards with DOS? Mice with Macs! Boredom with PS/2, serial, floppies, etc with Wintel? USBs, FireWire, CDs with Macs! Luna with Windows XP? Aqua with Mac! I surely cannot think a computer world without Apple! That's why I LOVE Macs! They give you feelings that you can never have with that Wintel crappy boxes! Yes, including the expensive ones that you can buy in PC stores... One final question? Where can I buy a small computer which can play (with ease) the newest and the greatest games + apps + Office + Windows + Unix + moveable 17" gorgeous LCD + FireWire + beauty + Mac OS + DVD-R with just $2000? I know! www.apple.com/store/ and its called 17" new iMac! I'm sure that you cannot find it anywhere else no matter what!!! Or a portable with MORE than the above stuff but just 2.6 cm thick and only $3000? I'm sure that right now you cannot possibly find it ANYWHERE else! So, for those people who whine constantly about Apple under performing compared to those P4/3GHz HT (HT BS) get your act together! As they said in the Matrix you cannot bend the spoon cause actually there is no spoon!

So, BuddaBob as you can see in order for me to... "so i apologize for defending myself, and defending pcs from insults and arguments that are not backed up" ...argue with you, you must have the same experiences more or less that I have and also be truthful cause mate guess what? In the end to me you are just the spoon... Why? Because, simply put, you failed in basic Windows exams! Maybe we will discuss about Mona Lisa the other day cause who knows maybe on that subject you will know more stuff that you think you know about Windows or dare I say about Macs?

As for me being troll, Mac addict, pray to Steve Jobs, etc. at least I know the basics of Windows & Macs... Also, I never said that Macs are perfect (and if I said cause really I cannot remember right now maybe it was more like a redheaded moment), I just love them instead of Wintels... An example is that I hate the fact that OS X.2.2 doesn't have full native language capabilities of my country which is Greece! WTH Apple? The country which created/improved the basic structure of languages, math, philosophy, democracy, etc you like to forget the most? Heck, even M$ has Windows XP with full Greek support!!!

Anyways, I don't know if this is saying anything to you (PC lovers here) but I earn money by fixing PCs mostly and supposedly fixing Macs and if tomorow Bill Gates decided to fix all those faults of Windows I would be out of job! However, earning money from PCs gives me the ability to LOVE the Macs more and more by each passing day!!! Now, that I'm thinking of it: Should I love PCs because they give me the means to love Macs? Nah! I should better go to sleep because what's next? Praying to Bill Gates?


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## edX (Nov 25, 2002)

what to do, what to do?  

hulk - you know as well as anybody around here that attacking, belittling and questioning the intelligence of other site members is NOT allowed. I even just got thru standing up for you as not attacking anyone personally, but just bashing windows. and i just go t thru editing one of your previous posts and asking you to tame it down!! now this while i am gone for the day getting my real life back in order. 

i can't really ask you to go back and delete much of what you have written because Bobb's tactful reply wouldn't make much sense then. on the other hand i can't just let this go as it only serves to enforce the idea that we will allow this kind of thing. the rules apply to everybody, including me, so why do you insist upon breaking them? 

so what should i do? or what can you do? short of removing you from the forum, which i am not anxious to do, i don't have a real answer. but rest assured if you don't do something on your own, then i will use that option. i will also add, that if you have read any of Bobb's other posts in other threads and other forim topics, you would know that he is very much a mac fan and not a pc fanatic. i don't know if it's the language difficulty or what, but you are definitly misinterpretting him.

Bobb - thank you for keeping your cool. 

again for all multi-platform users - please remember you are in a mac users forum. most of us are mac faithful and we really don't lose any sleep at night over what window users think of ourr devotion and fanaticism to apple and their products. think of this as a sort of 'Mac Club' for mac users only. while we don't want to live in some sort of intellectual vacuum here, we also don't respond well to having our judgements of the windows world devalued. i will say again. W@e are entitled to our opinions about our macs and about windows/pcs.  personally i hate m$ and therefore windows for a lot of more political reasons than any of the 'functional' issues that are constantly debated. Do i expect the world to share my opinions? i wish. but no amount of arguing about your experiences is going to change my politics nor my general feelings that m$ and windows do suck. i don't need reasons,  i don't need proof and i don't need nor want rebuttles. obviously Hulk is like me in that respect yet one or more of you always has to challenge him whenever he enters the thread in his overstated manner. please keep in mind that english is not everyone's first language and so things don't always get communicated correctly. even those of us who do speak english, often make enough typos to confuse what we are trying to communicate.

everyone, and i do mean everyone - let's not forget we are real people who have more to our existence than our words on a forum. let's remember to respect each other's humanity and basic value as human beings.

now i forget, what were we talking about other than macs vs pc's?


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## ex2bot (Nov 25, 2002)

I'll jump into this because I have no sense (or cause I'm screwing around):

The problem I have with PC's is that they don't run OS X. I've tried. I spent several hours trying to adapt it onto my Compaq. But the Compaq wouldn't even boot from the OS X Jaguar cd. 

The Compaq web site wasn't much helpful. No info on OS X. Of course, to be fair, Apple's site didn't help either.

What good are 3 gHz of processing power when I can't even load the operating system? I'm not going to plunk down even a nickel if I can't load the operating system. Does anyone blame me?

I'm sure you guys that like PC's and get all excited by the numbers have good reason for your opinions. But tell me, how did you manage to run OS X on your PCs? I'm getting really frustrated.

After all, I want to run OS X because I love it. That's why I use my iBook (which, to its credit, boots and runs OS X - all versions). It's a bit pokey sometimes, but my new iMac should be plenty fast.

So, I'm stuck using that inferior Unix clone on the Compaq. What is it called? Oh, Windows XP. What a joke. Ugly too. But that is just a free hobbyist operating system isn't it? Well, you get what you pay for.

OS X. When it will work on a PC, I'll buy a PC.

Have a nice day.


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## edX (Nov 25, 2002)

ROFL  

please somebody give me a hand back into my chair. my side will explode if i don't keep it pushed in.


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## Jason (Nov 26, 2002)

hulk, i didnt realize you were from another country and i think there is a bit of language barrier, and i apologize for whatever insults i seemingly have thrown in your direction

about the love thing, there is only one thing in the world i truly love and that is a person. i cant find myself to love a machine lol, but in english, love and like are very much intertwined and switched with each other, so under stand this: i dont love (in the strictest definition of the word) macs or pcs, but i do like both.

sorry for the confusion 

as far as the rest goes, 

the uninstalling thing, yes programs do leave stuff behind, but you'll find that this is actually the software makers fault not microsofts, because many newer and well built programs do get rid of everything. i fail to understand how its microsofts fault that a program put stuff all over your computer and then doesnt remove it... IMO it has more to do with crappy uninstallers made by developers, but thats just an opinion 

the picture i thought would make it a clear and precise way of explaining to users what the icons and such are for, i find it easy to use a picture or visual teaching for a user to explain things and generally it helps. im sorry if posting an explanation visually upset you.

the multi processor thing, i said it didnt seem right because of logic really, not because i was trying to insult you, logically i didnt think that would be a smart move, but like i said previously i dont know for a fact, it was just my thought process telling me that a move like that would seem stupid (and trust me i wouldnt be surprised if it was true)

the mac garbage prefs thing, i have run into problems on a lot of the macs (although they are running classic still os9.2.2) that have problems because of bad preferences files, I personally compare this to bad entries in the registry, because alot of what is in the registry is in fact preferences, although badly orginized and more complicated 

this is just a preference, but i dont like my drives being on my desktop, but anyways its easy to get them on the desktop like you mentioned, and that brings up something i do enjoy about pc's is the amount of customization available to them (although its a double sided sword)

start shut down sleep, yeah its stupid that it takes one extra step over apple menu sleep... really is that big of a deal? generally i press a combo set to shut down my mac and a key combination to shut down windows, quick either way, so it doesnt bother me that much, and to me it seems to me that you are grasping for straws on that one 

im in no way trying to make you look like a bad person, thats not my goal on this forum really. if anything happens that makes you look like a bad person it is not because of my words. plus, these are just computers man, no reason to get so uptight and emotional about them 

one thing though, comparing me to hitler if thats what you are doing, i find that highly insulting to me as a person, and i think its something that is not needed in this discussion. 

whats wrong with having some form of pc in everyhouse hold? i see nothing wrong with that... although i do see many things wrong with some form of uber controlling windows in every house hold... i dont like alot of what microsoft tries to pull, and i do like some of the stuff they do, but having a pc in every house i see nothing wrong with that as long as they still have their privacy and basic freedoms

as far as comparitive computers to the imac? there are none plain and simple, the imac is a great little machine, although it doesnt fit my needs as i would rather have a tower and a crt, because im a designer who needs expansion and color correctness... but for the other more normal users out there it is indeed a great machine 

the powerbook though, i dunno, maybe its just a personal thing, but i prefer my power to be in desktop form  and i think they are over priced for their performance, although youd be hard pressed to find an equally apealing piece of hardware... this is why i bought an ibook, i prefer the price, the size and the simplicity of it, but this is just my preference and what fits my needs

im a spoon? i dont get that, do i feed you the nutrients to fuel an argument or what? not sure what you mean. ive never claimed to be a windows or a mac expert, otherwise i wouldnt frequent here or other pc websites, and no ive never taken a windows exam, are you ms certified? if so whats the test consist of, i wouldnt mind getting certified sometime, as well as osx certified, it very well could open up more job opportunities

and about apple language support, that sucks about no greek  but i do have to say the font and native language support it does have is outstanding and makes windows support of it kinda crappy in comparison  especially the asian fonts, its great 

too ed:

i understand opinions based on experience, i have no probs with that lol, the stuff i have a problem with is "windows is garbage", "pc's suck" etc they are unsubstantiated insults, and if you replace windows with osx and pc with mac, that person would be kicked out, it just seems a bit of hypocracy to me, and well i just overall dislike statements like that in general *shrugs*

and to dk

LOL 

although i have heard of a few people developing osx builds for a VERY specific set of pc hardware (much like its built for very specific apple hardware)

but i havent heard of the progress in a few months, so i dunno if it got finished or not, but its not like anyone cares 

phwew another long post, me fingers are tired 


[edit] ok this image limit sucks, i always have to disable smilies


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## hulkaros (Nov 26, 2002)

The following BuddaBob try to read it as a paragraph of mine after a paragraph of yours... This because of text limitations in this forum... I know that it would be difficult but give it a shot... So here I go:

No real harm done cause actually I throwed some crap to your face too...

Ok, then fine! Like 'em both    But I love Macs 

Do you know that products supposedly get qualified by M$? Hardware & Software... So, you see that it is why REALLY is M$ fault: Letting developers doing harm in Wintel!!! But you see this harm helps the Wintel syndicate to earn money by tech support... Is another thing that the Stealth fella mentioned: How to the hell companies like M$ and Dell earn money while they keep selling problematic products? Gorilla tactics and GREAT marketing techniques my friend... Nothing more nothing less... As for newer apps doing the right thing: Hell no! Install ANY app you want in Windows and then uninstall it. Then check... Check really careful and then you will see what I'm talking about REAL garbage!

Look: I know that for some people things are easier to grasp but the majority of people who use computer cannot grasp the looks and ways of Windows! Did you know that the supposedly running services that you mentioned can and from time to time are actually Quick Launch items as well? I hope you knew it... The problem with Windows (and in XP is worst) is that it has too many stuff with similar and/or different meanings at the same time on screen and this confuses even the so-called professional users! Maybe to you and me those things are ABC but that doesn't change the fact that Windows IS hard to learn and use... More on that later on...

You still do not get it, do you? IT IS TRUE that Windows supports 2 cpus ONLY in Windows 2000 Pro and Windows XP Pro! If you want more cpus you got to go with Windows 2000 Server (and above)... All other versions (including XP Home) DO NOT have dual cpu capabilities...

Not to mention harder to clean if ever!  

You mean that you don't know that actually one can hide disks from his/her desktop in OS X? I hope you knew that! As for customization: Mac actually can be more customized than Windows (any version) if you know how and usually is easier too! An example: I want a custom toolbar in Windows... What can I do? Search, search and search some more just to find an app which will let me do ALMOST full toolbar customization while in OS X is a built-in feature!!! If you want to do something in OS X and you think is only a Windows thing, let me know! I'll gladly help you  

No, I wasn't talking about JUST the extra steps but about the logic behind it... Don't get confused! I said that XP's approach of Restarting/Sleep was DUMB & FUNNY not just an extra step! Read carefully this: Start Shut Down Sleep... Doesn't this read funny to you? To me not only funny but dumb too! And this is just an example of Windows being dumb and funny... I could REALLY go on and on but I hope you got the message!

Oh, come on! Try to be real here: You mean that you aren't get upset about computers? So why are we having this "discussion" here? As for being emotional... Don't forget that I love Macs and to me they aren't just computers: It is a profession, a hobby, a way of life 

No, I didn't compare Hitler to you! No way! I just mentioned that someone being open minded can be dangerous! Hitler was one of the most open minded people in history! You see at that time he had an open view on how things MUST work! And we all know what happened next... 

Exactly! But you see when you buy a Wintel system you have all sort of privacy problems... For once XP activation: Wth I need that? Copy protection they say? BS! We all know that it was cracked before XP even came out! And still they insist on using it (although after SP1 they give the user a 3 day window after the first 30 days...)! Do you want me to send you a cracked copy EVEN on my native language which is greek? Methinks that they hide something... Call me crazy! Call me privacy maniac! Call me whatever you like but in this matter I want to be the wolf and NOT M$...

Still, we've got people here complaining that Apple is doing ALWAYS things wrong (or more often than not)... As for expansion you can do ANY expansion you want with iMac! Graphic card I hear you say but let's be truthful here... Isn't GeForce 4MX MORE than enough? As for future expansion on graphics... Don't tell me that you know actually people who changed JUST the graphics card on 2, 3 or more years old PC? Also, if you mention games that they need more power I will mention to you this: Use lower resolution and you will be able to play all the new and great games for AT LEAST 2 years from now! Also, methinks that if one is to play JUST games on a computer he/she should get his act together and buy a PS2/XBOX/GAMECUBE or hell even GameBoy!!!  

Add a monitor, a keyboard and a mouse and of you go for real Desktop power and with the added bonus of having 2 monitors at the same time    Or you are trying to tell me that G4/1GHz is slow? Heck even G3/700 rocks on the majority of basic software! On iBook subject you are correct that it can offer a lot based on price/performance ratio...

I don't know the procedure in other countries but here in Greece is fairly easy to become M$ certified if you have the money!!! You pay them to certify you!!! No joke here... However, with Rainbow Computers (Apple here in Greece) you don't pay a thing and the procedure is: Attend lessons about 50 hours (for hardware because for software this ranges between 20-100 hours) and then you have some tests and if you pass that's it! It sounds easy but believe me it isn't! As for M$ certification is something around to 6 months with 2-4 hours per day, 5 days a week, they test you and if you pass that's it! (they teach you more about Windows advanced things like networking, troubleshooting, etc.) Am I certified? Hell no! I have to take at least a 2 month trip in Athens which is around 500 km away and I'm a married man so this rules things out...

It sucks completely because I cannot have the correct OS X experience as other countries currently have and this blows!

Of course it is not the same if you change the words! That's why this is a mac forum and not computers forum or PC forum or just forum... This is not hypocracy! This is the real thing! You cannot possibly hope to experience the live opera with your pyjamas on! They will kick your behind just by seeing you coming near the entrance...

Steve Jobs called it options! This is just a possible future for Apple but truly as of now it is plain dumb to expect such a move from Apple... Maybe in a few years time? When Intel/Amd will move to 64bit? Who knows? Just don't take these things too seriously! Am I the only one that thinks that the thing that happened in the past few days with Amd/Apple felt like a kick from PC lovers around the world just to show us how much they rule us? I think that the most down to earth approach about Apple moving to x86 is at www.macosrumors.com as of now because few days ago it was a whole different approach on the subject... Check it out!


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## Jason (Nov 26, 2002)

im seriously getting tired of you calling me dumb, accusing me of lying etc 

obviously our experiences are different with computers, you run a pc lab of some sort and i run a mac lab, so obviously we both work with computers that are highly abused. i never said that pcs arent harder to fix than macs. i said macs and pcs are on the same level in the fact that they both need a lot of maintence, but you seem to ignore the fact because you are hell bent on thinking that im some sort of pc fanatic.

thanks for actually answering my question about DP support, i was unaware of this fact, and now i am

there is a huge difference between quick links and running programs/services in he bottom right, everything that is in the bottom right corner is running on your pc in some form or another, im sure you know this as well, i dont understand how you are getting them confused with quicklinks, because i certainly am not

customization on osx built in is pretty good, IMO i think XP has more customization (especially when it comes to appearence factors, like having the option to turn off basic effects)

when im talking about expansion im talking about extra drives, scusi pci cards etc etc, im not talking about a new graphics card, im talking adding a graphics card, im not talking about firewire harddrives because quite frankly they are still too slow for video editing applications for a lot of people. the imac like i said is a great great machine, it just doesnt meet my needs. also games dont have much importance to me, and yes i did recently put a video card in my 3 year old pc, its a fairly cheap way to improve performance in a few different areas (one being games, but i dont play them much). the powerbook is great like i said, but once again doesnt fit my needs, and i understand how it can be used, i often use my ibook the same way when working outside of my "office"

i did not know that microsoft has to approve of every application made for windows. is there somewhere you can point me to that goes in depth about this, i would like to read more about it.

the logic in the strictest terms of it for the start menu is a little odd, but under stand that the start menu for windows was intended as a starting place for everything, and with that in mind it totally makes sense to me, just as much as everything else in there. now tell me in the strictest definition of things, what does an apple have to do with sleeping? obviously these symbolic starting points are not supposed to be taken literally, they are just there for the user to make use of.

so you are saying having an open mind is dangerous? i dont even know how to respond to that... and if i did respond it would very much be on a personal level that isnt intended for this forum, so please just think about what it is to be openminded, and for the record, hitler wasnt openminded... otherwise he wouldnt have tried to kill jews, and take over the world and claim to have the ultimate race etc etc

anyways you can call me an idiot, you can call me dumb, you can call me a liar, you can say im full of BS, accuse me of being dead wrong, accuse me of attacking you etc etc all you want, but im not going to lower myself to that level of thinking and get into a crap flinging contest with you on a personal level.

ive tried to be nice, ive apologized multiple times for the insults i made (although i only remember making one and thats saying you are on the same level as a pc troll, but i have since apologized for that since it was when you werent substantiating arguments, which you are now for the most part). 

so i will just admit you are right, and be done with this, its not worth discussing if you are going to bring it all to personal attacks


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## edX (Nov 26, 2002)

ok, i would appreciate if anyone who wants to continue this thread, read this thread first. anyone who has already posted in this thread should definitly check it out because it contains the info on how i am going to deal with all this flaming.


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## ex2bot (Nov 26, 2002)

[**edit** Oops! duplicate post by mistake. ]

BTW, For more information about my Compaq fiasco, read my signature line.


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## edX (Nov 26, 2002)

the beauty is that is almost as funny the second time around  

(did you mean to do that doug or should i delete the second one?)


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## ex2bot (Nov 28, 2002)

Uh. . .  I really like my iMac. . . .  It seems real zippy. . . .  It's a real nice computer. . . 


Uh. . . 




Uhoh! No sanctuary! 


(runs for cover)


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## tamma (Dec 3, 2002)

A lot of people are commenting on how the P4 is killing apple. well that is not entirely true. apple is STILL at the mercy of IBM and Motorola when it comes to processor development. the only way apple can get ahead of the processor wars is to either light a fire under IBM or they have to design and build there own. this way the only ones they can blame is themselves. apple has always tried to be a team player but the problem is no one else is. I personally think apple should start looking for a new processor supplier


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## fryke (Dec 3, 2002)

To find out the new one is even worse? 

I say: More fire under IBM and Motorola's bottoms. Let them compete a bit. But more importantly: Make them believe that the Apple platform is a really, really good one and that IBM & Motorola can only win if they make better processors for the platform.

Steve Jobs can motivate. He should take his private Jet and fly to Mot's and IBM's CEOs. Talk them up. Bring some presents.


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