# Olympics



## AdmiralAK (Feb 8, 2002)

The first olympics I remember were the 1992 olympics in spain.  I remember watching them on TV when I was living in Greece.  Back then, as a 12 year old boy I did not care much.  After I moved back to the states in 94, and essentially became an adolescent, taking charge of my own future and forming my own opinions of the world I have watched these games.

Each time I see them I get moved.  I don't know how other Greeks feel, and I don't how others on the board feel about them, but for one thing I am damn proud to be of greek heritage.  When I see the greek flag coming out with teh greek delegation, when I hear the anthem, when I see the olympic flame I get chills down my spine.

I also feel the same way about being an american,  I am damn proud that Salt Lake City is this year's host city.  I was moved then the American flag was brought out, even though torn, burned and defaced by the events of 9/11, it is still as majestic as ever and it still symbolizes what it is to be an american, furthermore it symbolized the endurance that we have as a people and as a nation. 


I really like the Olympics, not just for the sport aspect of it, and the fact that it provides great entertainment, but also for the greater fact that it symbolizes the unity of all peoples on this earth, we are all flesh and blood and in a eutopian version of reality we would live in peace and co-existance, something which isn't true today, and something which became horribly obvious to all americans alike on the wake of 9/11.


Having said all this I have been pissed off at the I.O.C., at some people's arrogance, and a few things that happen during the olympics in general and I wanted to lay it on the table (yes it is ranting time)


1) First of all, exactly WHY THE F(udge) is French used for introducing what is happening and then Enligsh?!  Of ALL the languages in the world WHY FRENCH ?????  If ANY language is to be used side by side to the defacto "international" language (english) it should be GREEK!  Am I missing something here ???


2)  While we are on the subject of french, I cannot understand the sheer arrogance of the French, and the I.O.C. in general.  I have been made aware of the fact that some IOC official wanted no "pro american" chants (i.e. rooting for the home team) because we would be perceived as arrogant... huh ?! (I dont have the actual articles to this but I will try to find them).  THey also were opposed to some sort of tribute to the fallen of 9/11.  What kind of their business is this ???  (I am aware that not all french are arrogant, so no flames please).

3) TV coverage of teh olympics.  This is a multi issue topic which I will do all in one paragraph... (a) -- Why not have better TV coverage ?  More neutral, sponsors are footing the bill so why don't you show more of teh competitions ?  (b) -- "presenters" like Katie Currick which evidently have no intelectual spark in them making dumbass comments while this great ceremony was taking place (it was a trully marvelous ceremony--kudos to SLC).  These people dont belong there!  They are jsut pretty faces on TV to read the news to you!


4)  Finally MY BIGGEST pet peeve of them all!  The comments made by everyone about Greece's readyness for the 2004 olympics.  I have heard enough of this BS.  Seriously!  I too have my criticisms about the speed at which progress is made in greece for the summer games, but come on already!  What the heck gives others the right to criticize like that!  I have heard the phrase "If you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all" and this applies here!  Better yet, you have criticisms ?  You've got problems ??  Why don't you frikkin come and give a hand and do something about it if you want to open up your big fat mounth and say something!  




Well... those are my thoughts for now, just wanted to share my excitement, as well as my rants on the issue.




Admiral


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## Matrix Agent (Feb 8, 2002)

I know this is problably not as deep as a response as you would like, and it really doesn't answer any of your questions, but I wan to add something else....

What was up with the "show"? I liked the parade, the orchestra was cool, but all of the choreographed dancing and the wagons and the square dancing just didn't seem to be interesting at all. I just wanted to see the flame go up.

As far as shows go, I liked lilihamer the best, with sydney coming in second. This is problably because I like the winter olympics more.


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## julguribye (Feb 9, 2002)

I almost need to thank you for saying that Lillehammer OL was good Matrix. It's cool to see that even norvegians can make something good that people remember.


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## themacko (Feb 9, 2002)

It's a conspiracy!

Just kidding, I enjoy the Olympics.  I really don't get all involved but it is fun to watch and root for your country (go USA).  However, I am a bit miffed that Scrubs won't be on again for like two weeks.  Two weeks!!


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## RacerX (Feb 9, 2002)

> _posted by testuser_
> *Certain countries either boycott (USA, USSR) or are banned (Afghanistan is the latest) *



Funny, when you think about it, both of those examples had to do with Afghanistan. The US boycotted the Moscow games because of the invasion of Afghanistan, and then the Soviets boycotted the Los Angeles games because of the US boycott four years earlier. 



> _posted by Admiral_
> *The comments made by everyone about Greece's readyness for the 2004 olympics.*



I wouldn't take it to seriously, Montreal wasn't ready in 1976, how many people remember that (I mean besides me that is)?


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## simX (Feb 9, 2002)

OK, first off let me say that I know some of you are going to probably be very pissed with what I am going to say here.  I want anyone reading this post to know that I am not out to degrade or offend anyone; this is just my opinion.

With that said, I have to say that it is not the French that are arrogant.  It is the Americans that are arrogant.  I am an American, too, but I think all of this nationalism and patriotism stuff that we have gotten into is simply plain pathetic.  We Americans think we're all high and mighty and above everyone else, and as such we think that nothing can befall our country.. until something like 9/11 happens.  Rest assured, I am very sorry that 3000 people died in the attacks, and am very angry about the hijackers who did this, but that doesn't mean that we should remind everybody at every chance we get what "tragedy" has befallen our nation.  It is damned arrogant to bring the "torn and tattered" flag from the WTC towers to every little event, like the SuperBowl, or the Olympic Games.  What's next, the World Cup?  I will seriously be sick to my stomach if I see that ragged flag "flying" when the U.S. plays soccer.

It's not the fact that we have a flag flying that pisses me off; some nationalism is justified.  But does Japan fly any irradiated flag from the time that we bombed Hiroshima?  Do the English fly any torn or tattered flag from the time that they fought Germany?  Hell no.  And if an attack that killed only 3000 people warrants one flag to be displayed everywhere we go, certainly a bombing that killed hundreds of thousands of people would warrant hundreds of "special" flags flying at every event since that bombing decades ago.  We Americans are totally blowing the 9/11 attacks out of proportion, and therein is where I think we are arrogant.  Again, let me make clear that I am very sympathetic to the families of the victims, but I think that there are some events that are just a little teensy-weensy more tragic rolleyes: ) than 9/11 (Holocaust, anyone?).

And AdmiralAK, about your first complaint: seriously you don't have to get mad about using French at the Olympics.  Do you have something against the French?  Did the French do some horrible tragedy like 9/11 against you?  Or are you just blowing all of the stereotypes of the French out of proportion like we Americans do for 9/11?  Seriously, maybe you could simply ask WHY we do it in French rather than Greek, instead of mouthing off saying (and I quote), "First of all, exactly WHY THE F(udge) is French used for introducing what is happening and then Enligsh?! Of ALL the languages in the world WHY FRENCH ????"
It's a little arrogant and rude to think that Greek should be used instead of any other language.  I believe the reason that we use French relates to the fact that French is the traditional language for diplomatic usage (but is rapidly being replaced by English); I don't know.  But, would you mind giving a little more respect to the French?

Oh, and next time we give a tribute to 9/11, lets give a tribute to all people who have died in such tragedies, not just Americans.  Frankly, I could care less about a 9/11 tribute, unless we honor all people who have died for reasons not worth dying for.

When will I be proud to be an American?  When we Americans give one final tribute to 9/11, and let the victims rest in peace, leaving the recounting of the events to the history books.  I will be proud when we realize that we have a President who is relying on the nationalism to keep his approval rating up.  I will be proud to be an American when we allow other nations to be proud of their nationalities, instead of smothering them with our rampant patriotism.


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## RacerX (Feb 9, 2002)

That is quite interesting simX, but a few questions if I may?

(1) You seem to have some very strong issues about the September 11th events. It is not uncommon for people who are trying to heal to want to share their feelings with others. I can understand that for the unfeeling, this may seem at nauseum, but bite the bullet and deal with it.

(2) Who has forgotten any of these other tragedies? I would point out that Japan does not even use the same flag that they did during the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. But lets say that there was a major event hosted by England following the end of the war in Europe, would you begrudge them the chance to show national pride by flying such a flag? Here is the problem with your comments, because we have a louder collective voice than other nations you feel we should individually show less pride in ourselves. Why? Why should any nation, big or small, be ask to think less of themselves? Now I don't think we should show our pride at the expense of others, but what you seem to be asking is extreme at best.

(3) And why can't you see why Admiral would want Greek to be used? Since when is the Olympic flame started in France? And yes the I.O.C. of late has been very poor guardians of the Olympic ideals which the games where originally designed to bring back. Who do you think has been selling broadcast rights to the US networks for coverage? If the coverage is TOO commercial, don't blame the US networks, blame the I.O.C. for selling the rights in the first place. Admiral is right, host nations language or Greek first and second, then any others (like French) after.

Frankly, I don't think you could be proud of being an American. My pride does not rise and fall based on small events (such as the term of a President or a national tragedy like Sept. 11th), it is based on our long term effect on the world (which in the absents of the US would either be over run by fascism or communism, in which case no one would be able to speak their opinion anyway) and the general nature of my fellow citizens. Do we have our short comings, yes. Can we be self absorbed, yes. Are we good people that the rest of the seem to come to when they are having problems, yes. No other world power has ever reached our current position without using imperial forces to do it. Can the French say what ever they want about us, yes (and they often do). Can any nation say what ever they want about us, yes. Are we still there for them when they need us, yes. For that I am very proud to be an American (though I would be even prouder if we had a different President, but hey we get to try again in a couple years).


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## AdmiralAK (Feb 9, 2002)

I am not arrogant to think that greek should be the language used as the primary "introduction" language (instead of french).  What have the french contributed to the olympics as an ideal?  Absolutelly nothing, they just brought them back to life after the christian movement had killed them.  You never see the olympic flame being generated ANYWHERE except greece, yet still one day you MIGHT think that france generates it because there is virtually no coverage of the flame lighting ceremony!

The only place I saw it was on a greek news channel.  No foreign media covered this event, the 
"ignition" if you will of these games.


I am against French being used for the simple fact that the language has been eclipsed in terms of international usage by english.  French should not be the primary language used for the olympics, but because the IOC is dominated by snooty french-speaking "people" that is why they have French.


Another reason I think the French are arrogant is their whole stance on how WE as a nation conduct ourselves during the aftermath of 9/11, that the F(udge) gives them the right to dictate to us what to do? -- this is just a general issue

the IOC is arrogant for wanting us not to root for the home times, no chanting USA, no this no that!  Arrogance!



As far as us, as americans being arrogant, hey I dont disagree with you, there are some people like that, but I have seen both sides, I have seen the arrogant euros up close and personal (and was one of them for quite some time) and I have seen the arrogant american, but never was one, because by that time I grew up, formed my own opinions, and became more "sophisticated" hopefully.

Nationalism to the extreme is bad, national pride to the extreme can also be bad.  As an ancient greek philosopher said "pan metron ariston" (a.k.a. the golden mean).  I see absolutely nothing wrong with us having a good dose of self esteem and feel proud to be who we are!


As for the flag, the flag is going to be put away somewhere, for the moment it makes us feel good, it  brings us closer, and gives us a sense of unity, which is something we need cause our country spans a continent.  Often californias dont assiociate with texans, or texans with Idahonians, or new yorkers, we are quite frankly worlds apart in our daily lives.  We have ventured far from one another, and this 9/11 wake up call gave us the boost we needed to feel together as a people!



I dont know where you are coming from, but I smell PeeCee (political correctness) coming from your direction, either you, or what made you think this way.





Admiral
PS: another great debate topic


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## simX (Feb 9, 2002)

testuser:  You make it seem like those lives at Hiroshima are valued less than the lives of the ones that died in 9/11.  And it doesn't make a big fat piece of difference whether it was during peacetime or wartime.  LIVES WERE ENDED.  And there were MANY TIMES MORE lives ended at Hiroshima than at 9/11.  Your post is the one that is insensitive because you think that the innocent people that died at 9/11 are worth more than those thousands that died at Hiroshima; innocent civilians were killed there, too, REGARDLESS of war or peacetime.  You do not know what would have happened if we did not drop the bomb.

RacerX:  I understand that people want to share their feelings with others.  But why can't I share my wanting to get on with it?  All I hear is 9/11 this, 9/11 that, 9/11 here, 9/11 there.  There's new 9/11 classes at Stanford for examining what led up to 9/11.  I can't get away from it.  And that's all I want to do.  Just the other day I heard on the radio a psychologist who was saying that Lord of the Rings came out after 9/11 because we were up for a dose of mythology due to the attacks.  Can't I have my half-hour of Simpsons without hearing or talking about 9/11?  That's part of MY healing; moving on with it.

I am not trying to say that we should individually have less pride in our country.  But there's a point where it needs to stop.  Do we have to make all of these people martyrs?  If I was in the WTC tower, I wouldn't want people to be mourning my death for 5 months.  Can't we have one national moment of silence for the WTC tragedy, and then let it rest in peace?

AdmiralAK:  I understand that the Greeks invented the Olympics.  But I still don't think that it's anything to get all angry over that French is used as the main language.  You can't have the announcements in all languages, you know.  So everyone can argue about which languages the announcements should be made in until their blue in the face and it's still not going to appease everyone: that's my point.


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## Lessthanmighty (Feb 9, 2002)

Wow.  You guys got a lot to say.  Thats past me, im a simple folk.  All I have to say about the olympics is weeeeee.  I dont really watch them all that much.  I dont really get into the historical backround.  I watch the opening ceremony, and see all the little "no-name" countries, bringing one representative.  And pay extra special attention to who lights the big flame. (it was such a BIG secret)  I think most of these guys use drugs any way, so its really not about the athletic abilities.  It all comes down to who is the more popular country.  Thats usually why the US comes out with the most medals.  (and we use more drugs than all the other countries).

Thats my two cents.


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## simX (Feb 9, 2002)

testuser:  You do not need to insult my intelligence.  I have studied WWII and the dropping of the atom bomb.  Maybe it did save lives.  Maybe it didn't.  You don't know that, because you don't have all-seeing-past-and-future glasses.  And what I am saying is that that's [that you value the lives of 9/11 more] what I get from your comment; you try to devalue the lives lost because it was during wartime, and that it might have saved lives.  The fact is that it killed many civilians.  That's the point.  In sheer numbers, there were more killed at Hiroshima than at 9/11.

Oh, and can you not count the Holocaust as "pure evil"?  So if we were given Afghanistan, would that make up for the tragedy of 9/11, and would everything be fine?  Is that what you're saying?  That's what you're implying, at least what you put across.

And also, I have experienced deaths in my family.  One was my father's father, and one was my great aunt.  I cherished them both, and was very saddened when they died.  But I did not go around, even 5 months after their deaths, reminding everybody that they died 5 months ago.  I simply remembered them, and I still do; I am no longer mourning them.

testuser, like I said before, I wish that we could discuss this in a civil manner.  I am still willing to do this, but you are making it hard for me.  I am trying to voice my opinion, that I need to move on with the tragedy.  It's my way of healing, and I am disappointed that you don't respect that.


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## RacerX (Feb 9, 2002)

> _posted by simX_
> *testuser: You make it seem like those lives at Hiroshima are valued less than the lives of the ones that died in 9/11... Your post is the one that is insensitive because you think that the innocent people that died at 9/11 are worth more than those thousands that died at Hiroshima; innocent civilians were killed there, too, REGARDLESS of war or peacetime. You do not know what would have happened if we did not drop the bomb.*



You know, I read his post also, and I didn't get that their lives were any more or less important. And he is completely right in saying that lives where saved by the bombing. Japan was training every man, woman and child to fight the invasion. The Japanese people were told that we were going to rape their women and murder their children if we landed on their shores. Why do you think so many were willing to give their lives as Komakasi? My background isn't history, but I know the facts about the war in the Pacific and the facts that lead to the first, second (which you didn't mention, where the lives of Nagasaki less import to you?) and hopefully last time atomic weapons were used in war. Trying to shroud your insensitivity with a cloak of liberalism isn't going to mask it from any one who really cares.



> *RacerX: I understand that people want to share their feelings with others. But why can't I share my wanting to get on with it?...*



You can, but you yourself pointed out that what you were planing on saying was going to be unpopular. If you knew this before posting, why do you care what anyone post after that? I'm getting sick of it also, but then I also understand what people are going through. My mild inconvenience is a small price to pay for the healing of others.



> *I am not trying to say that we should individually have less pride in our country.*



But you sure sounded like it in your attack on national pride.



> *But there's a point where it needs to stop... If I was in the WTC tower, I wouldn't want people to be mourning my death for 5 months. Can't we have one national moment of silence for the WTC tragedy, and then let it rest in peace?*



Okay, why don't we do this: one day one mourning for each of the people who died in the events of Sept. 11, that would be almost 8 years, or maybe, because we didn't know any of them, we could do just one hour, that would be something over 115 days (which if we had started sometime after Sept. 11, we would still be mourning today). 

Maybe you should re-read your posts. You argue about the importance of other great tragedies and the people lost in them as if they mean something to you, but you don't want this resent tragedy to cause you any inconvenience. So what is it? Are you so sensitive that we just can't comprehend it, or so self involved that you can handle missing you programing?

*NOTE:* As a side point, an event not too long ago did strike me as a misplacement of our collective priorities. It just so happened that a member of the Grateful Dead (sorry, I don't remember his name) died on the 50th anniversary of the dropping of the bomb on Nagasaki. PBS in San Diego ran a Grateful Dead concert over and over again for the entire day, replacing programing that included a documentary about what had happened that lead to the dropping of both bombs. Yes, I was a little unhappy (I stopped supporting PBS in San Diego after that) that the death of one man eclipsed that deaths of thousands.


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## simX (Feb 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RacerX _
> *Okay, why don't we do this: one day one mourning for each of the people who died in the events of Sept. 11, that would be almost 8 years, or maybe, because we didn't know any of them, we could do just one hour, that would be something over 115 days (which if we had started sometime after Sept. 11, we would still be mourning today). *



This is exactly what I'm talking about.  Let's say 100000 people died as a direct result of the bombing of Hiroshima (that's even an underestimate, because there were many more who died as a result of radiation in the following years).  One day for the mourning of each of these people would be *273* years.  So yes, I'll mourn the 9/11 attacks until 2009 if you mourn the bombing of Hiroshima until 2218 (and I'm giving you a leeway of about 50 years, because this is the date from when the bomb was dropped).

OK, maybe I should stop with the Hiroshima bombing as an example, because probably it did save lives.  So lets do this: one day for each person that died in the Holocaust... that's what, 3 million people to be very conservative... what would that be? 8219 years?  So I'll mourn the deaths of 9/11 until 2009 if you mourn the deaths of the Holocaust until 10221, in which case we will have already had the Y10K bug.  Does the state of Israel really compensate for 8000 years of mourning?

In either case, you would be dead before you finished mourning.  I don't think I've overestimated the numbers here.  But even if I have, you'd still be mourning these people in these big tragedies if I wanted you to mourn each person for one day.

Is it *THAT* HARD TO SEE what I'm getting at?



> *Maybe you should re-read your posts. You argue about the importance of other great tragedies and the people lost in them as if they mean something to you, but you don't want this resent tragedy to cause you any inconvenience. So what is it? Are you so sensitive that we just can't comprehend it, or so self involved that you can handle missing you programing?*



As I said above, I don't think it's that hard to see what I'm getting at.  Maybe I'm one of the only people who think that we should move on; fine.  But my argument is not insensitive.


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## RacerX (Feb 9, 2002)

So, is it me or did your response look like you didn't even read my post. The point of the matter is that this is here and now. When my grandfather died, I had a hard time _moving on_, it took me almost a year to get past it (almost as long as it took to watch him die). Your hurry to move on is insensitive, there is no way of spinning it other wise. I can tell you for a fact that the bombings of both Hiroshima and Nagasaki have had a larger effect in my life than in yours (unless a documentary about it interrupted the Simpsons one night). You can't expect anyone to take your completely false caring about the Holocaust and both Hiroshima and Nagasaki as being an excuse for not caring about the events of Sept. 11. You can't even seem to fake caring for those other events, so why bring them up? And if you are going to continue to, at least do a better job showing some feeling about them (they are your argument here after all) than you have up to now.


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## edX (Feb 10, 2002)

1st a small clarrification. i was born on an anniversary of nagasaki. Jerry Garcia died on my birthday. and i wish i had been watching pbs that day. i still miss Jerry.  

now where to begin. i don't really agree with anyone here or disagree with anyone either. from where i sit, all have said some things that make sense and some that don't. 

so i'll just start with the whole idea of healing. first of all, this idea of moving on is a particularly industrial development. Our times of facing grief have grown shorter and shorter. In rural parts of Greece (ironically enough), death rituals and mourning for the dead are carried out for five years after the passing.  in the large cities of the world, we are often lucky if we get a week off after someone close dies. We see people on TV who insist they need to work thru it (literally go on working as if nothing had happened).
But who really knows how long it takes any particular person to heal from tragedy? And how can we know what it will take for us to heal? We all carry different things with us over our lives. some things that we have never really healed from. and the biggest reason for this is because we either chose or were forced to 'move on' before we had dealt with them fully. before we had come to understand and resolve them. and the biggest reason for wanting to 'move on'is fear of facing the truths behind the pain. it is easier to remain numb ( a state of supressing conflicting emotions) than to sort out all the things that might reveal pain.
I could start quoting grief theories here that would give empirical basis for this idea, but i'm not publishing a paper here. but i would ask everyone to take a moment to look inside yourselves and determine where your pain lies. perhaps it has nothing to do with the olympics or sept 11. chances are these things have only tapped into emotions you attempted to bury long before that. or perhaps you have been truly traumatized by the events of sept 11. and the fear that goes with it doesn't go away just because Bush is chasing "evildoers".  Maybe wanting the world to return to normal is just another way to express a fear that it never will. 
i don't think the world has ever been the same since nagasaki. and i think my parents dealt with their fears of that in different ways. but i don't think any of us can say that we have no reason to fear nuclear war. now we have terrorists who seem not to value human life. we are once again faced by a threat that we cannot control. and cannot predict when and how it will strike. 

i will pause here. but i will end this with one thought. it seems too bad that this conversation is being held in this medium. we all know how easy it is to project one's own perceptions into the written words of others. normally we get around some of these limitations by using smilies. this converation is hardly suitable for smilies. and so we read what we fear we are going to read. if we were sitting around in a circle, we might be hearing and feeling more of what each person is expressing and trying to understand rather than attacking each other.


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## RacerX (Feb 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ed Spruiell _
> * it seems too bad that this conversation is being held in this medium. we all know how easy it is to project one's own perceptions into the written words of others. normally we get around some of these limitations by using smilies. this converation is hardly suitable for smilies. and so we read what we fear we are going to read. if we were sitting around in a circle, we might be hearing and feeling more of what each person is expressing and trying to understand rather than attacking each other.  *



Okay, this has nothing to do with the topic, but Ed has pointed out something here that I find important in posting in a forum. One of the things that I do when I have time (and almost always when posting a long post) is have Euclid read my post back to me. Also I have Euclid read long post of others to me so that I _can't_ read my own feelings into someone else's posts (I have seen threads where people have continued to fight on a topic that they actually had come to an agreement on simply because they assumed the subject of the other persons post). I don't know about other platforms, but as Mac users we have been given a number of apps that can read text to us (SimpleText, AppleWorks, TextEdit and WorldText) and we should really take full advantage of it.

Okay, this ends my plug for Apple's software. We now return you to our political discussion already in progress.


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## RacerX (Feb 10, 2002)

> _posted by  my good Ed_
> *1st a small clarrification. i was born on an anniversary of nagasaki. Jerry Garcia died on my birthday. and i wish i had been watching pbs that day. i still miss Jerry.  *



I'm sorry I couldn't remember his name, I knew he was very important to a large number of people. My only problem with that day was the theory that those who forget the past are doomed to relive it, and the 50th anniversary of the last time an atomic weapon was used against someone seemed like the best time to get people to remember the past. 

(and it didn't help that it was in the middle of pledge week and they were asking for money at the same time!  )


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## simX (Feb 10, 2002)

Thanks, Ed.  That was much needed.  I agree that this would be much different in a group where we could discuss this face to face.  I'm kind of emotional at this time, anyway, due to other things, so I think it's probably best that I probably stay out of this argument for a while.


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## edX (Feb 10, 2002)

and lest someone assume that i think jerry's one life was worth more than all those at nagasaki, i don't. i think nagasaki was one of the most horrendous events in the history of the world. matched only by the holocost and the inquisition. and yes, i think trueman could have been tried for a war crime for dropping that bomb. unfortunately victors rarely have to account for their actions. 
But Jerry's death was very upsetting in real time to many people. People who needed to start memorializing right away. I helped design and distribute a memorial t shirt as part of my way of dealing with it.  more than a man died that day. for many a way of life died with him. We all have our heroes. and when one of them dies, a part of us dies. and a part of them lives on inside us. Often it is not the physical closeness that determines the level of grief we experience, but the level of emotional closeness. 

I find it hard to imagine that anyone who watched the events of 9/11 did not experience it at a deeply emotional level. and most of us don't like feeling that much pain. but the best thing to do is to acknowledge that pain and express it. don't worry about how it looks or what others might think. it is your pain, own it and share it. if others don't want to hear your pain, then listen to theirs until you find the common element. usually it will be fear. fear of the unknown and uncontrolable. 
and make no mistake, we never cry for the dead. we cry for what we have lost. for the new emptyness that is within us and needs filling. and we don't usually fill it as quickly as we or the people around us would like. When any individual feels better, that is good. but they shouldn't cease to lack empathy for others who do not fill the voids as quickly as they did.

there are probably few left who cry for the people at nagasaki. there are many of us who still cry about the world we lost that day. because even though it was before i was born, the world has lived in the fear of another bomb like it ever since.


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## RacerX (Feb 10, 2002)

Unfortunately, if put in the same position as Truman (the death toll in the Philippines, the projected death toll of a full on invasion, the death toll of extended conventional bombing) I would have made the same choice. The war had to end, and the lives of the many out weighed the lives of the few. I would also point out that we did not completely destroy Japan the way the Germany was, which is why Japan recovered so quickly. A conventional invasion could very nearly have sent Japan back to the stone age (which in turn would have kept us from helping Europe recover by diverting aid). Truman did not do it because of Pearl Harbor, or what we found out the they were doing in China and Korea (which truly does make ones stomach turn), he did what was best given the situation at hand.

Make no mistake though, it was a horrific act that no one wished for (at least I hope no one would wish for). I made a conscience choice early on that my work would forever be so abstract, so theoretical that it could never be applied (for either good or bad uses). It may be harder to make a living, but it is easier to live with.

Just remember that it is always easier to judge someone when you are not the one who has to make the hard choices. Maybe Truman should have been tried, but I don't think it would have cleared his good name in the minds of many of those who could not stand in his shoes. The reality of what happened should not be thrown onto a pile of opinions that fit our personal doctrines. What happen goes so much further than just a simple judgmental statement, and not taking the time to ask the hard questions of why means that anyone of us (including an under educated world leader) could lead us down the same path once again (never underestimate your own role in the world).


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## edX (Feb 10, 2002)

well, i weighed real carefully whether i wanted to use could or should. 

i guess the way the history was taught to me was that the second bomb was a bit of a rash decision. and probably one that would not have been made today under the same circustances given the state of communication.  japan was just a little slow about folding but not really that far away given the effects of the 1st bomb. Having been born on aug. 9, i have paid just a little attention to this.  i have done several class projects and papers on the atom bomb over the years. 
one story most don't know, and i admit i heard it second hand. is that US troops were sent in to the atomic blast areas before all contamination had been dissipated. most of those soldiers developed cancers and other physical illnesses that either shortened their lives or made living an ordeal. this was related to me by a very well respected and famous prof. of mine who must remain nameless. This prof's father was one of those men. 
my own father, again another ironic twist, worked in the army corps of engineers stationed in the phillipines that analyzed the destruction caused by the bombs. I have seen firsthand photos of the destruction. nothing was left but a few walls inside the heart of the blast area of the original ground zero. ground scorched barren as if it were a field in winter.  the first to die never felt a thing i am sure.  
i will never argue the points you presented as good reason for the dropping of the 1st bomb, as much as i would like to believe there could have been a better way. but i have never seen anything to convince me that those points hold up for the dropping of the second bomb. Just as i have never seen a good reason that held up for the war in vietnam. 
and i would add in closing, that it is my belief that Japan rebuilt so quickly because of all the guilt money we supplied them with to aid in the rebuilding. which was a good thing. I will never envy the Japanese's success. nor resent them for having it.


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## RacerX (Feb 10, 2002)

I'll have to give you the points on the second bomb. And yes, there were US soldiers put in harms way during the testing of later devices.

And as for Vietnam, besides the fact that we should not have been there (the French warned us), the actual war was handicapped by Johnson (and later Nixon). We wasted far to many lives for points that looked good on a map in Washington but had little value to the war effort (other than not bring China into it). I did hear that Johnson interest in the region was based mainly on the nuclear resources of that area (like Bush, Johnson had his hands in the pockets of many energy companies).


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## ksv (Feb 10, 2002)

Back to the topic; I really think it's wrong that USA arranges olympics while they're still bombing (and, by _mistakes_, killing civilians), and talking about Iraq and North Korea as "the evil satan on earth".

It's simply not correct.

Also, Salt Lake City was chosen for the olympics because of corruption and bribery. Top of american double-moral. God bless America.


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## AdmiralAK (Feb 10, 2002)

It's nice to see that my thread has caught on fire so to speak, I just wanted to throw in a few things.

1) Ritual mourning in greece, at least by the Orthodox Christian standards  does take up to five years but it is a matter of personal preference.  Once a person dies, from the moment he dies to the five year "anniversary" there are set intervals of church rituals.  I think at a week-45 days- six months- a year and so on.  From there on in the personal lives of people it really depends.  When my friend died I did not do anything special, but others (males) wore a black ribbon on this arm to symbolize mourning (this can stay there as long as the person wants) -- I did not feel the need to do so (partly because I lived here and it woulndt mean anything).

Women, especially widows, usually wear black or darker clothing, even in the summer.  Again this is up to the person.  My grandmother wore black, but when she remarried she went back to normal clothes (my grandfather is her second husband).  My best friend's grandmother is still wearing black and she is 86, still mourning her husbands loss.



Now, this discussion about dropping the bomb, I have to throw in my 2 cents and say that this is a wartime action where civilians are prepared to lose their lives, when they wake up and dont know if they are going to make it.  This by no way diminishes the value of their lives, but it does put perspective into the story since the bombing of the WTC was without a declaration of war.



One last point, my comments were not aimed to spark discussion about bombings and whatnots, it was more to express my disgust at the IOC for having the audacity to think they are better than anyone else and actually DICTATE what we can and cant do.




Admiral


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## ksv (Feb 10, 2002)

Oh god, anyone remembers that eurosong song from Israel several years ago -"be happy"
Or the macedonian one the same year?
They sang so extremely horrible that I laughed that whole night of it. Shit, I should've recorded that eurosong show 

The last two years I've become a completely different person, I think. I do as best as I can to live a good life, without worrying about small and bigger things all the time. It's hard. It's a part of human instinct.


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## RacerX (Feb 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ksv _
> *...and talking about Iraq and North Korea as "the evil satan on earth".
> 
> It's simply not correct. *



You know I don't agree with everything that Bush has to say, but that surely doesn't make the things he does say that are right any less true (and for the record, it was _axis of evil_). Just because some small countries feel the need to _get in bed with the... "satan"_ (your term, not mine) in order to gets rights to their resources, doesn't make Iraq and North Korea good world citizens. So I guess your in favor of atomic testing (which North Korea still does) and the use of biological weapons (which Iraq had no problems using on the Kurds) as well. I think it is just as corrupt (though more openly) as any thing that the US or it's corporations has ever done (but at least they try and hide their deeds from the light of day).  Corruption, bribery, moral double standards, it warms the heart to see that these values are shared (if not advanced) but some of our smaller allies.  



> *Also, Salt Lake City was chosen for the olympics because of corruption and bribery.*



I have to agree, the IOC is guilty of both _corruption_ and _bribery_, so why don't you guys fix it? The IOC has thumb their noses at the USOC for almost 20 years now, Europe has a better chance of fixing the problem than we here in the States do. You should work on that, just not too hard, we really don't want to see the type of violence in our sporting events that you guys seem to take for granted. The Olympics seem like one of the few sporting events that Europeans take part in where they don't try to kill each other in the stands.


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## Jadey (Feb 10, 2002)

If you guys are having trouble swallowing the politics surrounding the olympics, imagine what the athletes have to put up with.

I LOVE watching the olympics. It's amazing to watch all of these countries compete at a huge range of sports - many of which I never get to see except every 4 years on TV at the games. 

You get to see how finely tuned each sport has become, and yet records are always being broken. What does that say about athletic training & technology?

Also, when the athlete wins a medal, you can see they're not worrying about the politics of it all. I follow their lead and just ignore that part of it.


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## .dev.lqd (Feb 10, 2002)

Were this a true grudge match... I'd probably end up on simX's side... 

I'm mostly fed up with American 'culture' as far as it goes... so many are so uninformed about so much. I feel that the populace would do well to spend less time 'mourning' in between watching sitcoms and spend more time reading. 

More and more I've been discovering that most of the problems I have with American culture stem from a lack of well subsidized media outlets for the public. Money is in sales. Sales is in entertainment. Entertainment is easier for the uneducated, and thus there is little impetus for wide public education or information. The system seems bent at preserving only itself at the detriment of the people within it.

Gah. Down with the establishment! Damn the Man! Keepin' muh bruthas and sistas down.

Props to Canada for their outfits... 

I have to say that the opening ceremony was WHACK. I understand that it won't be my cup of tea... but DAMN. Snake in the grass typa snypah needs to put the snake in the grass on ice ON ICE... 'na'sayin'?

No... I can't explain my break into shameless gangsta speak.


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## RacerX (Feb 10, 2002)

> _ posted by that angry .dev.lqd_
> *Were this a true grudge match... I'd probably end up on simX's side...*
> 
> _and_
> ...



So you would be on the side of the guy who wants less mourning so it doesn't cut into his sitcoms (like the Simpsons).  Boy, that sure doesn't make any sense to me.


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## edX (Feb 10, 2002)

1st thanks to Admiral for his excellent expansion on my reference to rural greek mourning rituals. nice to know that what i have read in books can be found thru experience. 

back to the idea of the olympics themselves. Despite the fact that i am something of a sports fanatic, i never really look forward to the olympics. i didn't watch the opening ceremonies although i am sure i missed a few chills going up and down my spine by making that choice. I watched some of the women's moguls last nite and enjoyed it.  the norsk girl really was the gold medal winner from what i saw!! 

once they are on, i tend to like what i see. but i still don't find myself getting wrapped up in them and anxious about what medal the us will take next. sometimes towards the end of the games i might get caught up in the emotions of some underdog that is doing the miraculous (like the lithuanian basketball team or the us hockey team in the past).

i'm with jadey, i just ignore the politics and enjoy the athletes. i still think their experience is more important than what any of us think. i think my biggest fear is that there will be a terrorist strike there like in the past. i pray it doesn't happen. it may be for the best that it is on american soil this time as our security is so heightened at the moment. i know it still isn't perfect, but i think that would be impossible anywhere unless the only way to see the games was thru a televised broadcast.

.dev.lqd - better learn to accept that most people don't have your intelligence and education. this is not going to change and you would probably like the world less if it did. lack of education among the masses is a worldwide problem, not just a US one. looking down at people with less is not going to change things.


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## AdmiralAK (Feb 10, 2002)

dev.lqd made my point for me, but I will get to that secondly.


My first point is indeed about politics.  As much as we want to ignore the politics we can't because of what exactly the olympics symbolize.  Yes I enjoy the games, the coming together, the "peace", the sportsmanship, BUT....

you cannot have a good product/ending (i.e. the getting together part) with having fuzzy, or dirty procedures to get to that final end which are the games.  We need to get the corruption OUT of teh IOC, we need to get the snottyness and the more-enlightened-than-thou out of the IOC as well.  It might be true that in order to make a cake you need to break a few eggs and dirty a few pans, but IDEALLY it shouldn't happen.  This corruption is sickening.


Secondly, I did watch the moguls, and I think the japanese girl was the best of them all  (yes I liked the norwegian one too) but thejapanese one had some EXCELLENT aerial moves 


finally what dev said.



> I'm mostly fed up with American 'culture' as far as it goes... so many are so uninformed
> about so much.




Yes dev, you ARE RIGHT, I couldn't disagree with you, but what gets me is that the europeans, have their share of uninformed, and even worse misinformed populace.  Why is there no such mention?  Furthermore there exist a culture of "putting down" americans in europe, I have lived it and I had been part of it, for no good reason.  Critique is good, if you provide backup arguments, mindless critique because of ingraining indoctrination is just annoying as hell and proves people to be dumbasses (and I have seen my share of dumbasses when I travel to greece).


Exactly what is the problem, that is what I don't get.  People follow what their interests are and virtually all people I know DO read on their free time, but read what pleases them, a novel, a textbook, magazine, newspaper, a whatever. 


I don't see where you are coming from here.



Admiral


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## .dev.lqd (Feb 10, 2002)

My only experience is with Americans. Europeans that I've spoke with have all been very well spoken, but I don't have much experience with a general European populace. 

Reading is like pot- it's a gateway media. Reading develops a better command of the language, and enables people to communicate more effectively and artfully. It also lets people comprehend and inspect the words of others (especially the well published ones). 

My other beef with America is that the access could be there- the only excuse for it is capitalism. It would be nice if the American institution acted as though Americans actually mattered. Unfortunately... slothful, materialistic citizens are better consumers than active, well informed ones.

Ed- I look down at people less than I look down at the conventions that keep them tethered to a couch. Accepting that the general populace is excused from informed participation in our nation's government or that corporations impose undue influence on complacent and unaware subjects is NOT something I'm down with. The problem may be worldwide, but America doesn't have an excuse for it. We have the money and the infrastructure to do RIDICULOUS amounts of good in this world.


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## edX (Feb 10, 2002)

.dev.lqd - when you put it that way i can't find much to argue with. I just worry when you or anybody else starts deciding what is "good". a hell of a lot of messes have come when outsiders start imposing their own standards of "good and bad" upon others.  Or worse yet when when it gets turned into what is good for the US. 

I don't think you will disagree with this too much, as i sense this is sort of the gist of part of what you were getting at to start with. But even by your own admission you have limited experience with cultural diversity outside encounters withthose who visit here. That alone makes them different from the populus of those who make up the masses elsewhere.

so then you're back to who does get to decide? don't worry, nobody here is going to solve this riddle. it is far too complex for any one person to figure out. so perhaps there are times when nature, including human nature, leads us down the paths we need to follow to find what we can realisticly do instead of what we would like done.

That does not mean we just go along and accept the world as it is. far from it. it should be clear from other posts i have made over time that that is not my position. for me it means choosing my battles and measuring my victories in comparison to yesterday, not to my expectations.


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