# Chimera programmer feeling way down...



## phatsharpie (Jan 20, 2003)

Sorry, maybe this isn't the most correct forum for this...

I was reading Mike Pinkerton's blog, and it sounds like he is feeling way down and unsure about Chimera's future. If you don't know who Mike Pinkerton is, he is the lead programmer for Chimera. Below if captured from his blog...



> I'm torn about what to do with Chimera. It's obvious it will only ever be a marginal product on a even more marginal platform. AOL and Netscape have no interest in supporting it. Who aspires to be number two in an already over-commoditized space? Working my ass off for 3% just isn't any fun any more. Safari has already won, the rest is just to see by how much.



I feel really bad because although Safari has became my default browser, I always have a special place in my heart for Chimera. And Mike has really done an amazing job with it... *sigh* Don't know what to say, but pure bummer.

Below is a link to his blog if anyone is interested...

http://mozpink.blogspot.com/


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## hulkaros (Jan 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by phatsharpie _
> *Sorry, maybe this isn't the most correct forum for this...
> 
> I was reading Mike Pinkerton's blog, and it sounds like he is feeling way down and unsure about Chimera's future. If you don't know who Mike Pinkerton is, he is the lead programmer for Chimera. Below if captured from his blog...
> ...



That's not good! Other than Safari and Omniweb, Chimera was a trustful, useful with loads of features browser and I would be happy to support it if its authors will decide to go shareware...

What I am sure about, anyways, is that Chimera is Speedy and by each and every new version was becoming a GREAT browser for the Mac which I would hate to lose forever... I also feel somewhat confused with its Mozilla/Netscape roots but hey: It IS a great product which I think all the Mac users MUST support in order NOT to lose it... forever...


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## Giaguara (Jan 20, 2003)

.. Safari hasn't won. At least me.. I hope they don't give up on Chimera or I'll stuck on the January xx - nightly..


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## Giaguara (Jan 20, 2003)

... isn't there his address somewhere? or should i start a Pro Chimera movement on all mac boards?? i like it far more  than Safari...


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## ddma (Jan 20, 2003)

I think "Innovations" would save Chimera. Programmers, c'mon, you know how to write better application.


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## Gregita (Jan 20, 2003)

It seems to me that the entire Mozilla project has slowed down. It doesn't seem like they are putting out as many updates as they used to.
(And I don't mean nightly updates.)

There was a time when I hated Chimera...It crashed every time I used it. The webpages got all screwed up...and then came version .6...and everything changed.

I have mixed feelings about the whole thing. I like Safari and Chimera both, but they both need some work.

It's possible, though, that there is room for both on the Mac platform. I think the browser that is going to suffer the biggest loss of users is I.E.


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## stealth (Jan 20, 2003)

i think its about time that IE suffers big losses . because from my point of view. in comparison to all other available browsers. ITS THE WROSE ONE THERE IS ! i even prefer the slow heavy Netscape from it. IE is useless and can be dangerous. and its  about time ppl stop using it


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## Gregita (Jan 20, 2003)

I would agree with you. Microsoft hasn't released a new version of it since August. It is the only browser I know of, too, that has had numerous security patches released for it. 

The updated version of I.E. for OS 9 froze my system more than the original..or it did.   When I had Mozilla installed in OS 9, it hardly ever froze the system. 

And AOL loads webpages so much better without I.E. as the central browser. Mozilla is slow sometimes, but it is relatively stable...even if it is bloated.  

Believe me, I would know. I have beta tested every build of AOL for OS X- with and without Explorer.


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## fryke (Jan 20, 2003)

Chimera could easily get more market share by fixing the interface issues. Better bookmark management, text handling, integrating the mozilla engine with Cocoa and/or Carbon...

But he's certainly right: It doesn't make much sense to try and win this game now that Apple has shown that someone who _can_ do interface can easily please a crowd with an old concept like a browser...


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## Giaguara (Jan 20, 2003)

Uh? I don't believe i'd be the only one who prefers the bookmark management of chimera compared to that of safari.. No way that i'll use safari before it has tabs. Other than the bookmark tab.  

Join the Pro-Chimera Movement...


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## jarinteractive (Jan 20, 2003)

Chimera is still my primary browser.  Safari is #2.  Don't give up on Chimera!!!

-JARinteractive


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## gigi (Jan 20, 2003)

Same here. Chimera #1, Safari #2. Chimera is a top class browser, the only suggestion i would have, is for the download manager to ignore images when saving them.


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## wtmcgee (Jan 20, 2003)

i'm not too worried, hopefully others will pick up the slack if certain people decide to stop developing chimera.


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## stealth (Jan 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by gigi _
> *.. Chimera is a top class browser, ... *




hmm.. its not a TOP class browser yet. thats what i think. it has quite a few problems. its crashes. its incompatible with some sites. its language support is perfect  in time .. if this guy keeps on workin hard, it will become a top class browser !!!


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## toast (Jan 20, 2003)

You can find Pinkerton's mail by typing his name in Google.

I've sent him the URL of this thread.


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## stealth (Jan 20, 2003)

good idea toast


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## Giaguara (Jan 20, 2003)

Thanx Toast!!!

Hey Pinkerton!!! I like Chimera a lot.. Keep it alive! It's [boosted] faster than Safari, i like more it's bookmark system and I hate browsers without tabs  I like it I like it I like it...   

<<< Starts the Pro Chimera Political Party ..


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## Cat (Jan 20, 2003)

<- start of Switch music

I was always browsing with IE, but I felt like somthing was lacking ... I dunno ... it was a bit sluggish .. and I wasn't complately satisfied with the interface ... there was something simply ... well, _missing_.

But then I deiscovered Chimera, and it was like ... WOW ... it had this leek no-nonsense interface ... and the speed! Man is it fast!

And I haven't got to the best yet!

Two words: Tabbed Browsing! Great. That was exactly what I was missing in IE. ... No doubt about it: Chimera rocks!

end of Switch Music ->

  

Mr. Pinkerton: Keep up the good work!

Giaguara: Pro-Chimera! Where do I apply? Do I have to sign in blood?


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## cellfish (Jan 20, 2003)

Chimera is honestly the best browser on the Mac. Safari is unbelievably bad, I don't care what the fanboys say. Put 'accept cookies originating from server only' and better support for video (better support for windows media and real player) and you'll have the best browser in the world frankly.

Safari is garbage


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## chevy (Jan 20, 2003)

Chimera is a great browser.
But if fighting against M$ is difficult, fighting against Apple on MacOS X is... nearly impossible.

Maybe Chimera can be sold ?

* and safari only works on Jaguar... not everybody has jaguar *


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## mindbend (Jan 20, 2003)

Chimera is dead. Sorry. I have used it once or twice, just for kicks. I found it no more useful than IE or any other browser. Nothing against it, but it's JUST A BROWSER.

I have never understood the passion behind these browser wars. It's not like these things are Photohop, Lightwave and Indesign. And as far as web development goes, which I do a ton of, I guess it's nice to have a standards compliant browser, too bad none of them seem consistent to each other in terms of delivering on those "standards".

Admittedly, I don't use advanced features of browsers, other than Auto Form Entry (which IE still rules at). Tabs would be nice I guess, but I don't do enough layered browsing to care either way. Safari, for me, is easily the best browser with the one exception of Auto Form Entry missing. Other people have different needs, tastes, etc. I can accept that.

I have no idea what drives people to program a browser, which nobody on earth is going to ever pay for, no matter how good it is, given the perfectly adequate free options. Now that I say that, I did actually pay for an early release of Omniweb just to support OS X development.

I congratulate the programmer's efforts, I guess. Hopefully that skill can be used for something more productive.

I love cellfish's "Safari is garbage" comment, with absolutely nothing to back it up. Too funny.


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## toast (Jan 20, 2003)

Just like mindbend did, I'd like to detail my own personal needs with a browser. While mindbend only needs auto-voucher-fill, for my own the only thing I need is to be able to do the following in only a few clicks:

- Open a news page (www.lemonde.fr, equivalent to The Times or to the NYTimes).
- Open four sections of this forum (news & rumors, sys & software, web works and net).
- Open www.desktoppublishing.com boards (I'm in DTP).
- Open Xicons.com so I can see if anything new is out.
- Open http://support.carracho.com as I'm participating to their forums.

Chimera allows me to save all those URLs under one single bookmark that I've called "Hyperdaily". Every morning, I run Chimera and click "Hyperdaily" once and the whole Web I've selected shows up. I read page after page, participate, bookmark more, read again, close, read more, participate again, and close the last tab - then quit Chimera.

All Web in a two clicks  Well done !

This what I need to do, I use the Web this way. And Chimera is the browser I need to do this.

Suggestions:
- Obviously, better Flash/WMP/Real support.
- Reduce browser application size ? It's quite huge !
- Apart from this, I can't see anything else.


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## Giaguara (Jan 20, 2003)

Chimera is nooot dead! Into the barricades!

[bolero of ravel] Chi-meee-raaaa...!! Chi-meee-raaa...!!  Chii-meeee-raaa...!!!

[hidden code for the users of macs only to provocate to the international terrorism] Hey, I think we should encourage him more! Lets post on every mac board that we DO like chimera.. 
[/hidden code for the users of macs only to provocate to the international terrorism]



[/bolero of ravel]


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## cabbage (Jan 20, 2003)

>>No way that i'll use safari before it has tabs
Same here, Chimera stays.  It crashed for me before .6 but now it is very stable especially the 12202002 bld


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## twister (Jan 20, 2003)

I jumped on the Safari bandwagon and i'm loosing faith.  It's a good browser, and has the best bookmark system for me, but it seems slower.  I think i might just come back to Chimera.  I do miss tabs and i feel that Chiimera (as of today) is better than Safari (as of today).  

However, sad but ture, Apple has many people working on Safari and it's going to be hard to compete.  Especially if they fix some of the big bugs in their beta.  

It'd be sad to see Chimera go but, in (browser) war some won't make it.  

Twister

My Chimera requests
-better Flash support
-spell check
-themeable
-easier access to "enable/disable" pop-ups


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## toast (Jan 20, 2003)

I use Chimera. Build ID: 2002122004. Rock stable.


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## Giaguara (Jan 20, 2003)

2003010706 here. feels like dirty nowadays when i don't change every day or at leat once a week...


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## stealth (Jan 20, 2003)

the good thing about safari is that insect button at the top right hand corner. its very simple to use and lets u report problems very easily! at the same time apple have much more ppl workin on safari and with a lot of feedback from us they can improve much faster than chimera!

on the  other hand chimera only has that Send somethin .. to report bugs!it opens only upon crashing . as a result. there is LESS feedback to chimera developers. and less developers workin on these problems
it is therefore logical, that safari will catch up with chimera in all the remainin matters!
safari (i think) will eventually become the ideal mac browser !

its a shame though for chimera. theyve done a very good job. maybe the best thing for all of us would be if. apple took up ALL of the chimera team with them . that would lead to a better and faster overall result!!!


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## terran74 (Jan 20, 2003)

Chimera was/is still alot more advanced than Safari.  It's had time to be refined and added many useful features such as tabs, the ability to remember your form entries in the keychain (which no other browser does).  It had superior rendering capabilities.  

It also had some issues.  Javascript recognition and plugin compatability were lacking.  

That said, I am now a safari user.  It just makes more sense to me.  I like the features so far and believe Apple will add more features in the future.  If only there was some way to borrow code from both projects in Safari.  It would be the ultimate in compatability but alas I doubt for many reasons that would happen.

I don't wish Chimera to fail but I always knew since the day MacOS X hit retail shelves that if Apple ever released their own browser i'd support it before supporting any others.  I hoped it would be a good browser because i didn't want to blindly support a bad product (like some do with IE)  All in all I think Apple has done a good job.  I think by putting their weight behind konquerer, they further fragment the market which I think in the long run will create a basis for better support of standards and less support for MS standards.


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## chemistry_geek (Jan 20, 2003)

Well, I guess I'd feel a little depressed too if a company I supported brought out a product that competed against mine.  But let's look at reality here.  Apple has a perception problem within the public eye of being a "slow" and expensive computer.  Micro$oft makes IE for Mac OS X and is completely on par with its Windows couterparts for bugs, random crash routines, and security holes.  Mozilla is nice for W3C compliance, cross platform, but BIG and BLOATED, which it must to be cross platform feature for feature.  Apple needs something light and FAST, faster than anything else out there, and once again it looked to the open source movement for the answers.  I've used Chimera, it's pretty good, but I'm used to Mozilla.  I started cruising the web when there was only Mosaic, then Netscape, then AOL bought Netscape and screwed it up, then I discovered Mozilla, and I'm really happy with Mozilla because it gives me control over every aspect of what I want and don't want to see.  Sure it's not the fastest, but my dialup connection is at best, on a good day, 24000 bits per second, so Mozilla will render the pages slightly faster than the bandwidth of my dialup connection, so I'm not missing much.  People are going to use what works best for them, that's the only reason they are passionate about which browser or other software they use.  For a long time all I used was Netscape Communicator 4.X, even my mother just switched to Mozilla because that was what she was used to using.  I'll switch to Safari when I get TABBED browsing and the ability to bookmark tabbed webpages, until then Mozilla all the way baby.


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## Javintosh (Jan 20, 2003)

I downloaded safari both at work and at home....

After a few days at work I started using chimera more and more and eventualy took safari off the dock completely.

Today I just tok safari off the dock. I miss the tabbed browsing, the tabbed bookmarks, the dock menu bookmarks and also I hate the download manager (especially since I have to close it manually). 

Personally, I would like for apple to include every mac browser available with their systems and then let people test run a few and choose what fits them.


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## xaqintosh (Jan 20, 2003)

I still use chimera only. I used Safari about four times, but I just don't like it as much. *almost* if it had tabbed browsing I might like it *almost* as much as chimera, but I doubt it. The overall look and feel of chimera is better, IMHO.


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## JetwingX (Jan 20, 2003)

well why not offer his ideas to apple so that we can all be happy (maybe apple might even hire him on the safari project...)


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## gigi (Jan 20, 2003)

i think he works  for apple already.....making safari.....i think...


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## ScottW (Jan 20, 2003)

Okay, to sum up all of this...

1) Chimera *was* cool. *Was* is the key word. Yes, it may still have features and enhancements and may still be your primary browser of choice, but (2) remains a fact...

2) Safari has a team of paid developers working on it, even though it's open source. Safari is currently beta, and could rapidly become "the cats meow" in no time at all. You are all used to IE and Chimera, Mozilla, Omniweb update schedules, I think you will see Safari bypass all functionality and all features in the next 6 months. It will become the "IE" of the Windows world, but hopefully better. 

He should be down and out, he should feel like he is wasting his time, because he is.

Point in fact:

Safari accesses to macosx.com in the month January surpass the next in line (IE) by double. Following up in third place is Chimera. Obviously, this is no rep of the real world, but it is reflective of this site.

Safari is fast becoming and will be the de-facto web browser for the Macintosh platform. The only browser that has a chance of competing is IE, and that is only if Microsoft cared. Which we know they don't.

So folks, decide what browser you want to smoke and enjoy it now, while Safari is being purified, cause in a matter of months, the only browser you will be smoking is Safari.

Scott


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## Ricky (Jan 20, 2003)

Poor guy..    It really is a great product, and he's done a fantastic job with it...


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## wiz (Jan 20, 2003)

damm it ... 

what do we do?


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## wiz (Jan 20, 2003)

i want both, yet i want one... i'm confused.


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## wiz (Jan 20, 2003)

i think its just that there's something in both these browsers i like.


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## wiz (Jan 20, 2003)

aah stupid apple, "just made my life a little more complicated"


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## wiz (Jan 21, 2003)

hey wait a min, i got it!!!

why dont the mozilla group make the chimera the Mozilla for osx. a complete cocoa suite.

this include the browser "chimera", a cocoa verion of the mail app, addressbook and the chat client!!!

is that possible?
if so, it's a lot of work. its worth it though.


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## Ripcord (Jan 21, 2003)

I can't believe that no one's mentioned Chimera's popup blocking..  This is pretty much the main reason why I keep avoiding IE on any platform - overall I'm happy that IE does what it does well, but it's missing a lot of things - and popup blocking is definitely a key one for me!


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## edX (Jan 21, 2003)

i would feel pretty sory for this guy even though i personally don't like chimera. hell, i've never even been able to get it to run stable on my mac. while stuff that other people complain is unstable is rock solid on it. i dunno. still, i wouldn't want to be in his position right now.
but why i don't feel sorry - he's upset that aol isn't supporting him. for christ's sake, what an awful goal. this is like being upset the devil didn't want your soul. geez, get a grip.
it seems to me that there are plenty of people who truly love chimera. maybe he should get a new set of priorities and start doing this out of love or out of appreciation for the people who do appreciate his work. listen to people's feedback and make it what people want, not what aol might buy. If you do that, then maybe you'll find a way to get financial support from the people you support with your work. people will always want choices and alternatives. provide them and you will win out if your heart is in the right place. 
obviously he isn't alone - several other developers are in the same place right now.  i still think we owe them all a little something for all they have done so far. but frankly, if any of them had been really doing the job, apple wouldn't have needed to come out with a browser and we would already have had several good ones that were worth paying for. lately i've gotten as p;o'd at our browser developers for slowing down once they get some popularity as i have bee happy with apple for releasing safari. but any of them that did it *just to be bought out or supported* by aol or any other corporate big guy, well, i hope they get what they deserve, not what they bargained for.


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## solrac (Jan 21, 2003)

OK FIRST THINGS FIRST

ANYONE WHO LIKES SAFARI BETTER THAN CHIMERA (as of today) IS JUST BLIND.

What does Safari have that chimera doesn't? Just ONE thing: A Bug button.

Chimera has tabs. Safari has NOT won until safari puts in tabs. What if Apple never puts in tabs for some weird reason? (Like they never put in a right mouse button). Then chimera will ALWAYS be the champ.

Chimera has bookmarked tabs. So if you open 10 tabs, you can bookmark them all into ONE bookmark, so you can open TEN websites with ONE CLICK.

I don't even think Safari is faster than Chimera. It's about equal. Sometimes Chimera seems faster.

Safari's bookmarks are nice, but just as good as chimeras. Maybe a little bit more polished on the interface but who cares?

Safari actually scrolls smoother, and plays animated gifs nicer. But Chimera plays flash sites much better and could easily polish up everything else.

Now... what's second.
We here are the only people who know about chimera. The mac geeks.

Your mom doesn't know chimera. Your uncle doesn't know chimera.

All they know is "Netscape and Explorer". And they might hear about Safari now because it'll be all over apple's marketing and software installs.

This is why pinkerton feels he lost.
He is working on the better program, but Safari will instantly become known to all the masses, while chimera will only be known to the geeks.

He won't feel motivated and better by coming up with new software innovations for chimera. What he needs is a marketing genius. Banner ads on hotmail, and CNN, and CNET. Prime Time TV spots saying "The BEST BROWSER ON MAC IS NAVIGATOR (chimera)".

Well, I want a lamborghini too.


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## solrac (Jan 21, 2003)

Oh, by the way:

Apple markets "snapback technology" as some super cool innovative browser technology.

What a crock of sh***t!!! It's simply ONE variable that marks a page. It doesn't even remember the trail you "snapped over" if you use it.

I could program snapback technology with a TI calculator, lol.


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## edX (Jan 21, 2003)

> Your mom doesn't know chimera. Your uncle doesn't know chimera.
> 
> All they know is "Netscape and Explorer". And they might hear about Safari now because it'll be all over apple's marketing and software installs.



and until one of these little guys makes the invesment to usse the WMP an d real player plugins, that will remain true.  frankly i've given up trying to cinvince these kind of people that there are better ways. because the truth is that for what they want out of a browser, there is only one way. maybe 2. apple is going to have to step up and pay the fees if they want to compete in these people's worlds.  untill they do, they're just another alternative browser.

and i still don't want tabbed browsing and i doubt mom and her gang do either.


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## solrac (Jan 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by mindbend _
> *I have never understood the passion behind these browser wars. It's not like these things are Photohop, Lightwave and Indesign. And as far as web development goes, which I do a ton of, I guess it's nice to have a standards compliant browser, too bad none of them seem consistent to each other in terms of delivering on those "standards".*



Here's the passion behind the browser wars, mindbend, and listen closely.

Imagine you are a mac lover. Imagine you are surrounded by twenty PC users pointing at you and laughing.

Imagine your mac loading a web page in Explorer in 45 seconds, that takes a PC literally 2 seconds to load, on the same connection.

Imagine them pointing and laughing, louder.

Now, imagine you download Chimera (or Safari), and that same page loads up in 2 seconds, just like the PC!

The 400 mhz G4 is not really much slower than a 3 Ghz Pentium 4. It's just the mac had bad software on it, that MADE it slower. This was explorer.

Now, imagine the hate you have for explorer, which made your mac so slow for so many years.

Now you have chimera and your mac is comparable to all your evil PC friends.

This is the passion behind the browser wars, on mac os x at least.

The original browser wars were just corporate money wars, and investment capitalist wars, and netscape hundreds of millions of dollars wars versus Micro$oft billions of dollars wars.

But all the browsers are just about as good as each other on PC.

On the mac, the browser will make or break your computer.

I am not against safari. Apple needs to market it so that people don't think "the mac is slow" when opening a web page.

Why didn't they just buy chimera though? That's what I don't get.


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## solrac (Jan 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by edX _
> *
> and i still don't want tabbed browsing and i doubt mom and her gang do either.  *



what??!! You don't like tabbed browsing???? You must not be right-brained or something. Wait, you couldn't be left-brained either..... hmmm..... where's this joke going... lol

actually, I showed my mom tabbed browsing. It was hard for her to understand but she finally ended up liking it, and she saw how much faster chimera was too.

Internet Explorer is so bad, that even the mass market crowd (your mom, your uncle) would appreciate chimera (or safari).


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## hulkaros (Jan 21, 2003)

...Chimera is and can be a GREAT browser but: I am sure that Apple will go ahead and incorporate Tabs (and other features ofcourse) and that's when Chimera will be in trouble... For now, Chimera has MANY things that Safari lacks to say the least and that by itself makes it a worthy browser: An unknown browser with unknown people behind it VS the mighty team of Apple's Safari! It sure sounds like David VS Goliath but hey at least in that story we all know who won, aren't we?

Hint for Chimera people: Shareware


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## toast (Jan 21, 2003)

Apple was aiming at killing Chimera. This Safari operation is one of their main successes: soon Safari will be, just like IE is for Windows, a standard browser for Web coders.

However, Chimera is better for the moment. *Just imagine one second what would have happened if Apple had released a browser with all Chimera features at MWSF*: I can assure you the whole Mac planet would have dumped their other browsers (hm, no, not Ed  ).



> I could program snapback technology with a TI calculator, lol.


Hey, don't be nasty with Texas Instr. ! I spent all my high school programming this thing instead of learning philosophy !


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## Cat (Jan 21, 2003)

> Hey, don't be nasty with Texas Instr. ! I spent all my high school programming this thing instead of learning philosophy !



LOL! 

I spent all my high school learning philosophy instead of  programming calculators!

Back to the main issue:

It's nasty to think of Apple as an evil commercial imperialist empire,  like, say M$ or the entire U$A (  ). Fact is that from the point of view of  Chimera Apple is just like that... Well, that's nasty... and we like Safari, but hate the fact that it will probably kill Chimera.

If Safari will not incorporate tabs and Chimera will continue to be developed up to a 1.0 release, we, the mac-geek community, will continue to use Chimera without doubt!

Now for the problems: well, admit it, Toast is right there:



> Just imagine one second what would have happened if Apple had released a browser with all Chimera features at MWSF: I can assure you the whole Mac planet would have dumped their other browsers (hm, no, not Ed  ).



Sad but true.


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## phatsharpie (Jan 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by solrac _
> *OK FIRST THINGS FIRST
> 
> ANYONE WHO LIKES SAFARI BETTER THAN CHIMERA (as of today) IS JUST BLIND.*



I do like Safari better than Chimera, and I can assure you, I am not blind. I have to wear glasses, but my prescription is quite minute, thank you.

I am quite sick and tired of this Chimera vs. Safari debate. THEY ARE BOTH EXCELLENT PROGRAMS, SO USE THE ONE YOU PREFER AND SHUT THE F*** UP ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE'S PREFERENCE! Everyone have different priorities when using software programs, I prefer Safari for a variety of reasons, while others will choose Chimera. Gee, different people have different tastes, what a shock! &lt;sarcasm /&gt;

I don't know what would be the best course of action to support Mike Pinkerton. I've emailed him with my gratitude and admiration for his excellent work. That is all I can think of to do right now, but what I WOULD do if I were a decent C/C++ programmer is to help him out. There are only 2 people really working on Chimera, so if you love the project, and you can code, start helping!!!


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## toast (Jan 21, 2003)

Forum talk written in capitals always ends up badly. Please guys, let the Caps Lock key go free ! 

The best way to help Pinkerton is to think very hard and to find THE useful feature no other browser has. Then send him by mail. 

I wonder if Apple could employ Pinkerton to get the tabs and Keychain and other brilliant features Chimera has into Safari. Maybe that's already the case.


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## solrac (Jan 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by phatsharpie _
> *I do like Safari better than Chimera, and I can assure you, I am not blind. I have to wear glasses, but my prescription is quite minute, thank you.*



NO!!!!!!!!!! YOU'RE BLIND!!!!! HOW CAN YOU LIKE SAFARI BETTER THAN CHIMERA???? THAT'S THE SAME AS LIKING INTERNET EXPLORER BETTER THAN SAFARI!!!

OR THE SAME AS LIKING A YUGO INSTEAD OF A FERRARRI????

WHY WOULD YOU LIKE A YUGO BETTER?? WHY????????????

just kidding hahah

but seriously, safari really has nothing on chimera. I just can't see what you like more about safari, other than a brushed metal interface.


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## Captain Code (Jan 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by solrac _
> *
> just kidding hahah
> 
> but seriously, safari really has nothing on chimera. I just can't see what you like more about safari, other than a brushed metal interface. *



I like it better than Chimera as well.  For me, it's faster.  I don't use tabs, so I don't care that Safari doesn't have them.  Yes, I've used tabs before, and I didn't find them much different than a new window.  Safari's new windows open faster than Chimera's so, it wouldn't really be any faster if there were tabs.


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## phatsharpie (Jan 22, 2003)

I do like Safari's speed, but the thing that I truly love about Safari is that it uses native Aqua widgets. Although Chimera is a Cocoa app, its Gecko engine doesn't use true Aqua widgets, only a simulation. I finally understood why people love Omniweb despite its shortcoming - its the native Aqua widgets! The great thing is that now I can use the system spell-checker, and all its services within the application and form fields!

If Chimera can be programmed to use native Aqua widgets, I'll seriously consider switching back. But I prefer a browser that is built using Mac OS X technology, not just a "simulation".

Yeah, tabs are cool, but Safari opens and renders windows in the background fast enough for me to not give a hoot.


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## toast (Jan 22, 2003)

Some very good points here. Safari uses more OSX features than Chimera. Especially Cocoa text boxes, which are delightful.

BUT...
... the very core browsing technology I use so MUCH, I mean tabs, is not there - yet.

One other thing is the page render: have you realized KHTML progressively renders pages (you can see it coming bit per bit) whereas Gecko first loads the whole thing and then displays it ?

I really prefer the latter one. When I click "Read last post", I like the browser to take one more second to load rather than having a strange messy forum moving in front of my eyes and then stabilizing.

It's a general remark: I'm of the few nes (I think) who prefer the 'whole page load and then display' rendering to the 'little bit by little bit' loading.

I'll stick with Gecko, hence.


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## edX (Jan 22, 2003)

> When I click "Read last post", I like the browser to take one more second to load rather than having a strange messy forum moving in front of my eyes and then stabilizing.



and the fact that i like to rapidly jump to the next page and be reading it while it finishes up is a big reason i like icab. i always assume when people say it is slow, it is because they are looking at some complex page's final rendering time. but the time till you're there and reading is normally just a few seconds. it's that blank pause before it goes anywhere that drives me nuts about most of the other browsers.


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## solrac (Jan 22, 2003)

you people who don't use tabs... you are just blind to how much better tabs are.

A new window is completely horrible compared to a tab. What if you have 20 windows open? The only way to find your window is through a window menu. But how many windows can be in there before you have to scroll through a list?

With tabs, you just instantly click on a tab, and the already rendered page is in there. It's easier to use times a billion.

With chimera, you could have 20 windows open in the windows menu, each with 15 tabs.  That's 300 accessible windows while safari could not even come close.

If you only go to one web site at a time and never do anything more complicated i guess it's useless, but even following a series of links is better in tabs.


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## stealth (Jan 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by solrac _
> *you people who don't use tabs... you are just blind to how much better tabs are.
> 
> A new window is completely horrible compared to a tab. What if you have 20 windows open? The only way to find your window is through a window menu. But how many windows can be in there before you have to scroll through a list?
> ...



it all depends on HOW or what u use the internet for. if u like readin only one page at a time, or if u have a fast connection u might not open more than 2 windows at the same time. in that case u might not care bout tabs.

on the other hand, now that ive switched to safari . i really miss the nice feature bout Chimera where u could have a folder of numerous tabs on the toolbar. so by pressin it all my news pages will load in one single window.that was very helpful.

safari has reached 1 million downloads. and if its next update has tabs. i guess thats the end for the rest of browsers.


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## hulkaros (Jan 22, 2003)

"you people who don't use tabs... you are just blind to how much better tabs are."

You people who don't use macs... you are just blind to how much better OS X is.

"A new window is completely horrible compared to a tab. What if you have 20 windows open? The only way to find your window is through a window menu. But how many windows can be in there before you have to scroll through a list?"

A new windows version is completely horrible compared to a OS X. What if you have 20 applications open? The only way to find your app is through a taskbar menu. But how many buttons can be in there before you have to scroll through a list?

"With tabs, you just instantly click on a tab, and the already rendered page is in there. It's easier to use times a billion."

With OS X, you just instantly click on Dock, and the already loaded app is there. It's easier to use times a billion.

"With chimera, you could have 20 windows open in the windows menu, each with 15 tabs.  That's 300 accessible windows while safari could not even come close."

With OS X, you could have 20 apps open in the Dock, each with 15 windows. That's 300 accesible windows while Windows could not even come close.

"If you only go to one web site at a time and never do anything more complicated i guess it's useless, but even following a series of links is better in tabs."

If you only use one app at a time and never do anything more complicated I guess it's useless, but even using a series of apps is better in OS X.

    

Now, what if Safari in ver.1.0 will have those tabs? Is really a matter of Chimera VS Safari or just Safari not having tabs in general?


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## phatsharpie (Jan 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by solrac _
> *you people who don't use tabs... you are just blind to how much better tabs are.
> 
> A new window is completely horrible compared to a tab. What if you have 20 windows open? The only way to find your window is through a window menu. But how many windows can be in there before you have to scroll through a list?*



Have your TRIED to open 20 tabs in Chimera?! Let's consider that an average resolution for a display is 1024x768. Now, let's subtract the dock from the display, so it's now 1024x750. Even if you max out the Chimera window, that's still about 1024x750 of screen space for the browser with the 20 tabs. Since the tabs go horizontally, that's 1024/20 = ~50 pixels for each tab. You are trying to tell me it's possible to decipher what is the title of each tab when you can only stuff the title of each webpage in 50 pixels? Okay, now let's consider the tab can be staggered. Each tab is about 25 pixels high. Now, because we want the tabs to be readable (the whole argument is tabs allow you to QUICKLY navigate between the open windows), let's say that each "level" of the tabs can support 5 tabs (1024/5 = ~200 pixels, should be enough for titles). That means, for 20 tabs, that's 4 levels. Each level being 25 pixels, 4 x 25 = 100 pixels, now subtracting another 150 pixels (at least) for the toolbar, URL, menu, that's 250 out of 750 of screen space. So at most we are left with 500 pixel of height for content. That's going to be a lot of scrolling to use tabs. And not to mention, it'll be confusing to be browsing with all those tabs.

So the truth is, tabs are only practical when their numbers are low. They allow you to quickly switch between pages, because you can read all the titles of the different pages quickly. Now, some sites have all the pages with the same title - so we need to keep the tabs at a minimum to allow us to remember which tab is which. Now, if tabs are best used when there are about 5 of them happening at once, how much more difficult is it to use command+~ to switch between windows or even using the window menu? The truth is, the more pages you are browsing at once, the less useful tabs are (you can no longer read the titles, or the take up way too much screen real estate), so the more likely you'll be using the windows menu.

Before you start saying that no one uses 1024x768 anymore, keep in mind this is the most popular resolution for the average people. It's the resolution of the the CRT iMac, the 15" iMac, and the iBook, and the 12" PowerBook.

Please don't shout at me about what I do and don't know about Mozilla. I've been using Mozilla since it was barely usable (late 1998) and I was one of the first person on this site to champion Chimera.

As I stated before, people have different taste, and stop trying to tell me that I am "blind" because I decided to use another program.


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## stealth (Jan 22, 2003)

ive used a maximum of 6 or 7 tabs. and it was very practical. 
but even at 20 tabs. even if the title is not very readable. the fact is that it is MUCH MORE PRACTICAL than openin 20 DIIFF windows. 
of course id never open 20 tabs. but the fact is that tabs ARE A GREAT DISADVANTAGE. ur not OBLIGED to use them. when tabs first came out many ppl where happy. 
thats what missin from safari. once they out .its over
personally i believe that tabs are more practical and better in every way in comparison to openin a new window. but on the other hand i use safari. and thats because i find that OVERALL safari is better than chimera


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## phatsharpie (Jan 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by toast _
> *One other thing is the page render: have you realized KHTML progressively renders pages (you can see it coming bit per bit) whereas Gecko first loads the whole thing and then displays it ?
> 
> I really prefer the latter one... *



I have to admit, I prefer the former. The truth is that Safari's "interlaced" or "progressive" nature is much closer to the expectations of World Wide Web's architects. HTTP is a stateless protocol. It fetches one piece of information at a time (this is changing with "pipelining", but you'll have to use a web server that support this newer form of HTTP), so what usually happens is that the webserver can server you the smallest component of the page first, this is usually the text (or the HTML page itself). If you have a page with text and picture, and if those pictures are huge, you would have to wait a long time for the pages to load EVEN IF all you want is the text, if the renderer would only display the full page when it's fully loaded. This is one reason why interlaced GIFs were so popular in the late 90's - because it progressively loads itself. Giving you a little bit of something at a time, so you won't get bored waiting.

I have a slow dial up connection, and I usually surf the web for its text/articles, so I want them before the pictures are loaded. That's what Safari does, it presents you with whatever it's got first, so I don't have to wait for the images before I start reading.


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## solrac (Jan 22, 2003)

Well the fact is...
I don't care what some of you people say about tabs.

Tabs are better period. That's not opinion, that's fact. (Just like saying the michelangelo is a beautiful statue is a fact, not opinion. True, definition-wise its an opinion, but if 5.9 out of 6 billion humans agree on it, it's really a fact.)

Tabs are better. Period.

Oh and you can only open 15 tabs in one window.

And it doesn't matter that you can't read the titles if the tabs get too small. If I'm on Macosx.com, and i click on 15 threads I want to read, they are all in tabs for me, inside one window. I don't care what the titles are, you just simply read a page, close the tab, and the next one is there for you instantly. You can have ebay in a different window if you'd like. You can have 4 ebay tabs open in a second window, 12 macosx.com tabs in a first window, and 8 tabs of google search results and following pages in a third window. How can 24 separate mixed up windows be better than that????

And you can bookmark all open tabs into one bookmark. So I can go to macosx.com, thinksecret.com, apple.com, and macrumors.com, into 4 different tabs in one window, and bookmark it. Then with one click, they will all open up and I get all my mac news in 4 separate tabs with one click, whenever I start chimera.

Safari might be faster by a millisecond, but that's like saying windows xp is faster than mac os x (snappier). Who cares. Mac os x is better, and more productive.

And hulkaros is right... tabs in chimera are like the dock in OS X, compared to no tabs in safari is like the taskbar in windows.

No tabs is horrible.
Tabs rule.

End of story.


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## Cat (Jan 22, 2003)

Phatsharpie wrote:


> I have a slow dial up connection, and I usually surf the web for its text/articles, so I want them before the pictures are loaded. That's what Safari does, it presents you with whatever it's got first, so I don't have to wait for the images before I start reading.



Ever tried Links (text only browser) from the Terminal? 

Solrac wrote:


> if 5.9 out of 6 billion humans agree on it, it's really a fact.)



From a philosophical point of view I have to disagree with you. In ancient Greece everybody thought the world was flat. After Columbus and Copernicus everybody (apart some fundamentalistic Christians) thought it was round. Imagine what an upheaval and earthquakes when suddenly (when 51% changed opinion) the world inflated!!!   

Facts are those things that don't go away when you stop beliving them.

From a practical point of view if have to agree with you! It is great to bookmark all pages of a certain kind (News, Mac fora, etc.) and have them open in a single window. That is very very usefull IMHO and it is one of the reasons I  don't use Safari (besides being stuck in 10.1.5  )


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## phatsharpie (Jan 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by solrac _
> *True, definition-wise its an opinion, but if 5.9 out of 6 billion humans agree on it, it's really a fact.)*



Really? Hitler was elected to power in Germany by a majority, so are you telling me that he indeed the best leader the Germans could have hoped for? Majority of Germans at the time were also supportive of the Nazis, so the politics of the Nazis must be the best too!

If your argument is true, since 97% of computers sold are Windows machines, then THAT must be the best choice for an OS then!



> *And hulkaros is right... tabs in chimera are like the dock in OS X, compared to no tabs in safari is like the taskbar in windows.*



I think you actually got that in reverse. The Windows task bar give you a "tab" for each window (webpage) that is open. So it's exactly like the tabs in Mozilla/Chimera. While the dock is application specific. In fact, you can simulate Mozilla quite nicely with IE if you open all the webpage windows in maximum size and just use the task bar to switch between them.

What you have said about the tabs is an opinion. PERIOD. Majority isn't always correct. We found that the Earth really isn't flat. The Earth really isn't in the center of the universe. Etc., etc., etc..

The only truth is that PEOPLE HAVE DIFFERENT TASTES. Please stop being a zealot and just accept that.


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## phatsharpie (Jan 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Cat _
> *Ever tried Links (text only browser) from the Terminal?  *



I actually love Lynx. If most pages' navigation isn't images, I'd use it more often! Try navigating Apple.com with it! Ewwwww!


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## hulkaros (Jan 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by phatsharpie _
> *I think you actually got that in reverse. The Windows task bar give you a "tab" for each window (webpage) that is open. So it's exactly like the tabs in Mozilla/Chimera. While the dock is application specific. In fact, you can simulate Mozilla quite nicely with IE if you open all the webpage windows in maximum size and just use the task bar to switch between them.
> *



The Windows thing is correct in pre-XP versions... In XP you have the option to group similar apps/windows together in one button (tab if you prefer) and you know why?

Because it was impractical (other than having the computer to crash  ) to have 4 word docs open, 3 excel books, 5 web pages, wmp, 3 photoshop images, 2 coreldraw, etc. ALL AT THE SAME TIME... That's why they included the previous mentioned option which is the Dock's default treatment for windows/apps!

As for having multiple IE windows at maximum size: That beats the need for having windows in the first place! Why have windows in the first place when one app takes the whole screen away? I want to view at the same time web pages, the wmp playing music and anything THAT I need/desire/want to have open at the same time! This cannot occur without IE having tabs! So, you see IE at max windows size with combination of the taskbar is not the same as having tabs in a browser 

And that is before even thinking that one can have enabled the option of auto-hiding the taskbar (even on your max IE windows scenario such a user CANNOT have tabs) 

Anyways, because this turned big, if one likes/dislikes tabs that's fine! But what I believe is that TABS should be in Safari preferences as an option as they are in Mozilla/Chimera/et al anyways... So the user will be able to chose IF he wants/needs/cares for them or not...

I, for one, want the Tabs as an option in Safari ASAP!


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## edX (Jan 22, 2003)

simple reason i don't like tabs - eats up screen real estate. i want as much page and as little browser as possible. end of story. point. my perspective. endo f my debate tactics. there is no 'fact' here other than 'your truth' and 'my truth'. there certainly is nothing that says we need to agree. i want the biggest display of web content and you want a half dozen pages at instant access. i only want 4-5 and so keep a seperate window for each. 

for instance. i don't want an already rendered thread in a tab. because i want to see the latest refreshed version of that thread before i read it anyway. and if i'm going to have to relaod it anyway, what's the point?

know what's really sad? that this threaad started out as a notice of someone's mental health and turned into another silly browser debate. very few people here have even discussed this poor guy's feelings. they just care about whether or not their lousy browser is best or not. such lack of empathy is really upsetting.  someone sent him the url of this thread - for what purpose - so he can see how little people care about him and are only concerned with having all the browser features they want? he's right, people don't appreciate him. they only want what he can give them. and it's likely he won't be able to give them enough before long.


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## kendall (Jan 22, 2003)

Your agument about tabs makes little sense to me.  First off, they eat up no real estate unless you mean the quarter of an inch they create so you can switch between them.  Considering they're self contained within the browser window, you gain a lot more screen real estate  since you don't have five browsers opened up cluttering your desktop or your Dock.

As for "already rendered thread" in a tab, I don't understand what you mean.

I think the main reason some Mac people, especially former OS 9 people hate tabs is because self contained windows within an application is very Microsoft Windowsesque, where as Mac OS likes to have windows all over the place like with Photoshop or Office.


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## sheepguy42 (Jan 22, 2003)

Ignoring solrac's destruction of hundreds of years of philosophical theory and logical construction (  ), I will say this-
Tabs look cool and sound cool, but I find them clumsy at best to use. I am used to switching windows through the menu that comes from right-clicking the dock menu, but then I have a 2-button mouse. Maybe tabs works better with a 1-button mouse, but cannot go back to that. Anyway, I usually have no more than 5 browser windows open and you know what? they are often in deifferent browsers. I use Safari because the interface is more minimalist, but some sites don't work right in it. I use OmniWeb if I am going to a site with tons of ads, as it has the best ad blocking. I use Chimera when I need the fastest browser, but like Safari it does not work on some sites (.Mac webmail, for me at least). And because it is the only one that works with my bank's website, sometimes I have to use IE (here's hoping Safari takes care of that). I won't bother with Mozilla because I use Chimera, and I won't use Netscape because I use Chimera and Address Book and Mail. I am not a web developer, but I use several browsers, often at the same time! Of course, I never knew about being able to bookmark a group of tabs, and if that seems like a good possibility I may use Chimera more until (of if) Safari gets the same. Anyways, that's my take on the whole matter. Well, that and the fact that no one browser is going to be perfect for everyone, and I am glad I use a Mac where my choices aren't based on whether M$ will let the other choices work right.


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## stealth (Jan 22, 2003)

guys. noone is FORCING you to USE tabs.
its just that SOME ppl would like tabs in the next safari update more than anythin else.!

its UR choice if u use tabs. if u dont. thats ur choice. pretend they dont even exist. but  arguin bout it doesnt help.
soon. safari will have tabs. and all of this will have been a wasted time.  ed is right. lets think bout that poor guys emotions.
maybe we can email him and tell him how we feel. its not entirely HIS fault that he(chimera) got crushed by the Invincible/Incredible Hulk(apple-->safari)  he he he


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## fryke (Jan 22, 2003)

Kendall: Ed was talking about screen real estate *inside* the window. I'm the same. I tend to get rid of all the buttons and GUI elements in browsers, because I'm much faster with (good) keyboard shortcuts. The fact that I'm mostly on broadband connections eliminates the need for tabs. The most I'll ever need is a second window, and having to sacrifice the window real estate for two tabs is too high a price. I _hope_ that Apple will implement tabs in a better way than Chimera does, but it's not that important to me.

Someone said that you should try and open 20 tabs in Chimera. I've tried Chimera several times in the past few months, and whenever I tried to actually _use_ tabs (i.e. more than 10 tabs), Chimera crashed. Not sometimes: Always. Sure, you can set it to not load pages in other tabs, but then the feature is useless.


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## solrac (Jan 22, 2003)

Ok first of all...

The argument that the world was flat was at that time a scientific fact. This was not opinion.

I'm talking about opinions that are so widely held, that they become fact. The fact that the michelangelo is a beautiful statue will never change, because it is inherently an opinion, as good as a fact.

But the notion that the earth was flat was simply a fact, nothing more. Facts can change. Opinions that are so widely held that they are fact will never change, because it is something humanity shares as a passion.

Perhaps a few thousand people on this earth think the michelangelo is ugly and crappy for artwork, but it makes no difference.

The same way, if you do not like tabs, you are simply a pariah, an outcast, an nth percentage of billions of others who would actually like tabs, so your opinion is moot and null.

And don't bring Hitler into this. If you go by facts alone, then yes: Hitler was a genius, one of the best speakers of all time. Hitler was, simply put, a great leader. He convinced leagues of Germans to blindly follow his way. He was brilliant. Too bad he was also megalomaniacal and evil, but that doesn't change the fact that his IQ was probably close to Einstein's.

And just because 97% of the world uses windows doesn't mean windows is more liked. Just because one uses something doesn't mean it's their favorite. Otherwise everyone would be driving ferraris. People use windows because its cheaper and has more games.

Mac OS X is better than windows. Period.
Hitler was genius and a great leader. Period.
Tabs rule your momma. Period.

(and of course I'd like to see windows go the way of hitler.... GONE)


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## solrac (Jan 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by edX _
> *know what's really sad? that this threaad started out as a notice of someone's mental health and turned into another silly browser debate. very few people here have even discussed this poor guy's feelings. they just care about whether or not their lousy browser is best or not. such lack of empathy is really upsetting.  someone sent him the url of this thread - for what purpose - so he can see how little people care about him and are only concerned with having all the browser features they want? he's right, people don't appreciate him. they only want what he can give them. and it's likely he won't be able to give them enough before long.  *



HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAHAHAH
That was the funniest thing I've read in a long time.

Who really cares about this Pinkerton fellow anyway? We are all just parasites who take what we can get, when we can get it. Fools such as Pinkerton are merely here to supply the blood for our suckers.

There's something so... 1984... about all this hahaha.


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## solrac (Jan 22, 2003)

oh and btw, chimera has never crashed for me with tons of tabs only. It crashes for me with many tabs open or not, equally as much.

HAHAH, sounds funny. But still, a crash is actually very rare for me in chimera.


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## Jason (Jan 22, 2003)

your empathy for others amazes me solrac


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## solrac (Jan 22, 2003)

it's all fun'n'games dude.... most people should be able to see when I'm serious and when I'm not very serious and just making myself laugh (and hopefully a few others laugh too)

I think the parasites bit was pretty good


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## shemina (Jan 22, 2003)

my primary is still chimera safari is a distant 2nd. i'd hate to see chimera go but it is true that things seem to have slowed down. it makes me sad

shemina


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## chevy (Jan 22, 2003)

This is written using Chimera.

ScottW, do you have any statistics how many access to the www.macosx.com are made using Chimera ?


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## stealth (Jan 22, 2003)

i dont think he does. but u could do a poll on it


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## doemel (Jan 22, 2003)

Tabs are not compatible with the official Apple GUI guidelines afaik. So you'll not see tabbed windows in Safari (at least not before Apple substantially reforms their GUI or hell freezes over  ).




> _Originally posted by hulkaros _
> *[...]I am sure that Apple will go ahead and incorporate Tabs (and other features ofcourse) and that's when Chimera will be in trouble... [...]*


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## kendall (Jan 23, 2003)

There's tabs all over OS X???


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## toast (Jan 23, 2003)

I can't see why tabs would not compatible with the official Apple GUI guidelines. As far as I know, you can find tabs in many applications.

This link shows a Chimera page with 16 tabs (maximum allowed by my system). You can open this link in a new window/tab, as you like 
http://www.ifrance.com/thinkhybrid/posts/16tabs.jpg


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## hulkaros (Jan 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by doemel _
> *Tabs are not compatible with the official Apple GUI guidelines afaik. So you'll not see tabbed windows in Safari (at least not before Apple substantially reforms their GUI or hell freezes over  ). *



Or simply they will decide that if they want to listen to their customers they MUST include Tabs in Safari or...

...they will add a whole new twist on Tabs in Safari which I would like to see it happen...

Who knows? A dock-like way of handling multiple web pages inside Safari? Hmmmmm


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## solrac (Jan 23, 2003)

oh yes that brings another point, tabs are useful even if the text gets truncated due to too many tabs being open, because the web site icon is on each tab!!! (see toast's screenshot above)


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## fryke (Jan 23, 2003)

well, check that window again. 

seems like some websites _don't_ have those icons, and if you open several windows of a site (different pages), you're lost. and when i'm working on several pages of a website, that'd happen a lot.

But again: The discussion is quite useless, since users can use the feature if they want - but don't have to.

I really think a better UI would be good. Any ideas how to make a better interface for multiple pages?


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## solrac (Jan 23, 2003)

yeah a better UI would float the name of the whole tab in a floating tooltip on rollover of the tab. Or use a cool mac os x graphics thing and make the rolled-over tab grow to show the whole title, and make all the other tabs shrink, sort of like the dock, but for tabs. Cool huh??? Too bad a dual 1.25 ghz G4 is too slow to process that HAHAHAHAHHA


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## Cat (Jan 23, 2003)

> Tabs are not compatible with the official Apple GUI guidelines afaik.



Where do you guys finde these "official guidelines"? Are they online somewhere at Apple?

I think the disussion about which browser would be better and why is in a certain sense helpful to Pinkerton, since this gives him a lot of feedback about why people use Chimera and  why they use Safari instead. It is quite clear that many of us prefer Chimera because of tabs. If Chimera is gaining in speed and stability for many (me included) it will remain the primary browser: that should be an encouraging thought. Moreover, Safari is being programmed by Apple, a big company with loads of money and experience. Chimera is an open source project: the fact they still are of comparable quality is also a compliment for Pinkerton. So I don't think the discussion is pointless and rude.

Solrac: I'm very willing to go on discussing about opinions vs. facts, but not here. Care to take it to the Café?


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## solrac (Jan 23, 2003)

Cat, I'm cool, I don't need to discuss tabs and such at the cafe, heheh. But the apple guidelines you wonder about is a giant book created by apple quite a while ago called the Human Interface Guidelines (HIG). It's available on apple.com deep in their web site somewhere.

It even has rules on how to make icons, for chrissake! Like some icons should be viewed as in straight ahead (like utilities), and productivity tools should be more 3D like. (or something like that.)

But tabs have been a part of mac windows and control panels for years, right?


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## solrac (Jan 23, 2003)

p.s. ... in fact tabs in chimera are the standard cocoa interface tabs i believe


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## fryke (Jan 23, 2003)

control panels, not windows per se. the chimera tabs may be 'standard cocoa tabs', but they're not implemented as mentioned in the HIG.


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## sheepguy42 (Jan 23, 2003)

I guess my frustration in this discussion stems from two things:
1) I don't use tabs, and many others don't too, so saying that a browser is not good until it has them (which some here practically did say) is just plain silly, and 
2) solrac seems to ignore the fact that this is a text based conversation, so some of us might like a clue (as others give in their own ways) as to when he is or is not being serious. Maybe I should see it, but I have dealt with too many people who hold seriously to rediculous claims in the past to see it anymore.


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## fryke (Jan 23, 2003)

that's two good points, sheepguy42.

my personal guess is that solrac got upset with people who don't see chimera as the holy grail. i hope the discussion will calm down a bit. i'm sure there'll be another round of browser discussions soon, but this thread should really be on the topic of the programmer who considers stepping down...


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## solrac (Jan 23, 2003)

I'm serious when I say tabs are the best, and that a browser without tabs is an incomplete browser. That is how great and useful this whole tabs thing is. Everything else I said is in humor, but based in truth.


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## evildan (Jan 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by solrac _
> Ok first of all...
> 
> The argument that the world was flat was at that time a scientific fact. This was not opinion.
> ...



No, I'm sorry you're mistaken. The argument that the world was flat was a misconception not a fact. It was never prooven to be a fact. And like all opinions, people had differing views. Despite popular belief, NOT everyone believed the world was flat.

Opinion that is "widely accepted" does not automatically become a fact, it becomes "popular opinion." Popular opinion is subject to the conditions of an opinion. All opinions have varying points of view. 

What you are talking about solrac, among other things, is ignorance. Ignorance that your opinion is the only opinion that matters, because you feel your opinion is of the majority. 

Your preference, as you have so openly shared with all of us, is that you like Tabs. I, for one don't like Tabs, I think it's an inefficient way of navigating the way I have conditioned myself to navigate. 



> And just because 97% of the world uses windows doesn't mean windows is more liked. Just because one uses something doesn't mean it's their favorite. Otherwise everyone would be driving ferraris. People use windows because its cheaper and has more games.



No people are using window because the penetrated the market first. But you do raise an interesting point here solrac. Under your conditions, your opinion does not matter. Since you are among a minority, of which the majority are the people using Windows 98, Internet Explorer, your request for tab browsers is moot. 

I don't agree with that any more then anyone else posting in this thread. You have a right to post your opinion, but you do not have the right to put down the opinions of others... and despite the fact that you can't seem to get your mind around the fact that not everyone likes tabs, guess what, they don't. 

Say what you want about browsers don't distort the english language in order to facilitate your need to be right.


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## ScottW (Jan 23, 2003)

Thread is closed. 

Move on people... nothing to see here.


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