# Apple's last WORD



## macridah (Jan 27, 2003)

Here's an article from MacWhispers that reports: Apple's Microsoft Word Killer:

"Information from a variety of sources reports that Apple is near a beta release of their long-rumored professional word processing application. Details of the software are fascinating.

The new package, said to be named "Document," includes 100% import and export functionality with Microsoft Word files, but goes much farther than that venerable word processor has ever managed in giving the user a full-scope document development environment (a term used by one of our sources in describing the new product).

It is said that Apple Document will draw heavily from the experience gained within the KeyNote development team, but has been a completely independent project within Apple. And, many of the rich feature concepts evident in KeyNote will also be present in Document, with full implementation of the Aqua interface and of Quartz graphics, including anti-aliased text.

Sources say that Document will seamlessly import and export components in a large number of formats, from Word, Excel, and Photoshop, among others. And, most interesting is a report that it will also provide many alternate output format choices, including advanced .PDF (with selectable compression), several levels of HTML (including DHTML), a wide assortment of multimedia formats, and will provide easy to use tools for adding XML tags to documents."

crossing my fingers for this one!  Hopefully by MWNY


----------



## stealth (Jan 27, 2003)

once they release Document. im sure the first thing ill do is drag microsoft office to the trash 
if they are truely going to bring such a project to us. i seriously cant wait


----------



## twister (Jan 27, 2003)

I would LOVE this. I hate Office and Apple Works is falling behind.  

Twister


----------



## Langley (Jan 27, 2003)

Why do you hate "ms office"  apart from it being MS?


----------



## stealth (Jan 27, 2003)

i dont hate it personally. i find office for mac good  i hate the pc version for word 
and im sure that any apple office project will be much better than MS office !
and i hate MS because it doesnt help ppl. it makes their lives more difficult. their programs have problems. not secure. not stable. hard 2 use. they just trouble every1 instead of help them get do more complicated stuff faster


----------



## twister (Jan 27, 2003)

I hate it because it's to much.  Maybe i just haven't taken the time to learn it properly.  It seems like they created the program to help me only it doesn't listen to me.  It just does what it thinks i want.  

Twister


----------



## Remco (Jan 27, 2003)

Word is nice for simple documents, but it's a joke with more complex documents, like legal contracts. It's difficult, but it works, but all of a sudden it ruins your complete document and there's no way to get it right again, no logic will help you. The Windows-version won't help either. You can't really depend on it. Although currently there isn't much else to choose from, if you want compatibility with .doc. That's the biggest problem, their .doc-format. Once they leave that real competition can have a chance.


----------



## Langley (Jan 27, 2003)

What type of problems? I have never had one in all my essays/presentations/spreadsheets etc.  Not a crash, not anything?

Come to think of it my computer illetarete girlfriend jumped onto excel and designed a calculating home budget in a arvo?


----------



## chevy (Jan 27, 2003)

Langley, try to write a real document... a few 10th of pages, with numbered images and formulas, tables and cross references, you'll understand where the limitations of Word are !

The only real solution is FrameMaker. Much more expensive, but that's a real editor. Or the less user friendly but also very efficient Tex-Latex.


----------



## twister (Jan 27, 2003)

I always have issues with tabs.  If i wan't to tab someting it it automatically puts numbers or bullets or something.    It tries to do what it thinks i'm doing only im not doing what it's thinking.  Kinda hard to explain though.


----------



## chevy (Jan 27, 2003)

Twister, these are small problems: you can disable these automatic features.

The real problem is that Word under heavy usage is not stable.


----------



## mindbend (Jan 27, 2003)

The main reason I use Word is for compatibility. I deal with a lot of PC clients and I can't be jerking around with file formats.

If Document is truly compatibile in and out, that's great...for now, but what happens when Microsoft releases the next version of Word and breaks compatibility? You think that's not going to happen to some extent? 

Word is more than adequate for my needs. I'll switch to Document (if it really exists) only if it is as compatible as it seems and to support Apple/OS X.


----------



## twister (Jan 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chevy _
> *Twister, these are small problems: you can disable these automatic features.
> 
> The real problem is that Word under heavy usage is not stable. *



I knew it was probably my problem not words, but still, i don't care for it.


----------



## chevy (Jan 27, 2003)

When you write things like that http://www.xemics.com/docs/xe8000/xe88lc01_datasheet.pdf then you understand your pain with Word (yes it is made with Word... real nightmare)


----------



## MisterMe (Jan 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Langley _
> *What type of problems? I have never had one in all my essays/presentations/spreadsheets etc.  Not a crash, not anything?
> 
> Come to think of it my computer illetarete girlfriend jumped onto excel and designed a calculating home budget in a arvo? *


Clearly you have never written a paper with more structure than simple paragraphs. If you try to edit even a simple enumerated or bulleted list using M$ Word, you will quickly discover what a productivity killer it is.

Word becomes a lot friendlier once you turn the automatic formatting off. The question arises then: "Why is this stuff on by default?" Well, if it were off by default, it would never be turned on and never be used by the vast majority of Word users.


----------



## themacko (Jan 27, 2003)

What I dislike about Word is how it is always changing fonts on me.  I will be writing a paper and switching back and forth, pasting quotes, numbers and pictures from various webpages and other documents and Word always starts changing the font size, style, etc. on me.

Other than that, and the fact that it just lost a paper for me last semester that cost me a grade, I like Word quite well.  (I'm not bitter ... well yeah I am.)


----------



## Decado (Jan 27, 2003)

What is interesting is the question if it will be released for windows. would that be a good or a bad thing? And what would uncle Bill do?
Good: it could weaken the word-standard, and give apple some big bucks. Easier to get people to switch when they have started to use appleproducts. like the iPod.

Bad: it's a nice thing to wave infront of pc-users to get them to switch. if it's only on mac.


----------



## doemel (Jan 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Langley _
> *What type of problems? I have never had one in all my essays/presentations/spreadsheets etc.  Not a crash, not anything?
> 
> Come to think of it my computer illetarete girlfriend jumped onto excel and designed a calculating home budget in a arvo? *




At my university I have been working as support staff/system administrator in a computer room with 40 G3 PowerMacs. And I can tell you at one point I just had to stop counting how many students came running after me because Word f*$@ed up their essays/papers/documents. And the only way to get anything out of  corrupted Word docs is to wade through them with a text editor like BBEdit. Hours of formatting gone up in smoke. In fact, at least 2/3 of all support incidents were somehow related to M$ Office. That's the type of problem the Mac world is experiencing with M$ software.


----------



## AdmiralAK (Jan 27, 2003)

Nice news 
Now all we need is an Excel type of application 
My university/job still is M$ dominatrixed so I would still use Office at work, but I would probably use the Apple suite at home if it were good enough.  My boss got KeyNote which he used and he said it wasn't as fully featured as Powerpoint as he thought (he is a machead although the university is forcing his hand on the PC fire) and he expected it to overcome powerpoint. I hope both apps (Document and KeyNote excel past M$ word).

There is one question in my mind though.
If KeyNote and Document become better than word, and somehow  users prefer that over the expensive office suite, wouldn't M$ just close off (even more) their format/doc types and kill off the ability to import & export docs to and from M$ office apps ?! Then apple would be kinda dead in the water unless they hire some of those wonderful reverse engineers from dataviz that made the transltion engines back in the days of OS 7-9  ?????


Admiral


----------



## weaselworld (Jan 27, 2003)

But if MS shut off the ability to import and export docs in some new version of office, they'd be screwing themselves over. I can imagine the "groan heard round the world" when MS announces that they've not only shut off the Apple world, but also anyone using an older version of Office.

I mean really, could they actually keep Apple's Word Processor from being compatible with their formats without shutting out every other version of office than their latest and greatest? I mean if the alleged "Document" makes use of the current MS formats, MS would have to render that format null across the board to keep Apple away from it. 

Doesn't seem likely to me. That's just how I see it. If I'm missing something here, please correct me.


----------



## Ricky (Jan 27, 2003)

Word tries to "help" you.

I hate that.


----------



## AdmiralAK (Jan 27, 2003)

actually I have had problems in the past when people try to open up versions od .xls, .doc and .ppt from lets say the XP version with a 2k or 97 version


----------



## Izzy (Jan 27, 2003)

I use Word because I have to...school papers and such need to be compatible with what everyone else is using.  I miss the days of word perfect 3.5  and Claris Works on OS 9...

If Apple makes a program like this I can't wait to see it...but I worry at the same time if Apple can really survive without Microsoft and Office...


----------



## jeb1138 (Jan 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by mindbend _
> *If Document is truly compatibile in and out, that's great...for now, but what happens when Microsoft releases the next version of Word and breaks compatibility? You think that's not going to happen to some extent?*



Yeah, but "extent" is the key word here.  If Microsoft breaks compatibility too much they're gonna get a whole lot of hate from the owners (individuals & businesses) of the millions of copies of old versions of Word and Windows that are already out there.

They can do it a little (as they have before), but not very much, and Apple will have a lot of lead time to incorporate the new features before they become important.  I mean, if 90% of the Windows community can't read the documents for 8 months is it really a big deal if Apple's computers can't?

MS could try to send out "update" patches, I suppose, but my experience has been that a lot of people don't really like updating or auto-update.  Dunno, but I don't think it's too big of a problem really.


----------



## doemel (Jan 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jeb1138 _
> *MS could try to send out "update" patches, I suppose, but my experience has been that a lot of people don't really like updating or auto-update.*




yeah, especially when these patches increase the E.T. factor...


----------



## kilowatt (Jan 27, 2003)

Any word on if its to be Cocoa or Carbon?

Also, which is KeyNote?


----------



## ApeintheShell (Jan 29, 2003)

Although small, MS Word has a hard time recognizing commonly spelled words.
If you do data entry and have a pdf file it launches adobe acrobat so you have to focus on two instead of one app.
I haven't got a hold of the OS X version yet and i've only used the disaster that was Word 6 for mac and all the windows versions.
But i imagine that is just as obtrusive as the pc one. Oh well, at least i won't get the blue screen of death.


----------



## toast (Jan 29, 2003)

iLife, Document...

Is this a contest of the most stupid names ?

Plus, M$ can break compatibility at any stage. I'd prefer a very much reviewed AppleWorks 6.3 (and free, of course  ) with plugin support (just like Quark: Import Filters).


----------



## Lazzo (Jan 29, 2003)

Chevy, I just took a look at that pdf. 

I don't care what it was produced in, rather you than me mate!

The final result must have arrived amid much crashing, gnashing, wailing and canibalistic style sheets that ate themselves. Anything but Word for that job.


----------



## senne (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Decado _
> *What is interesting is the question if it will be released for windows. would that be a good or a bad thing? And what would uncle Bill do?
> Good: it could weaken the word-standard, and give apple some big bucks. Easier to get people to switch when they have started to use appleproducts. like the iPod.
> 
> Bad: it's a nice thing to wave infront of pc-users to get them to switch. if it's only on mac. *



the best strategy: Release the product for Mac & Windows for a year or so.... Then after that, release 2.0 for only Mac. THAT would attract win-users to our platforum!


----------



## twister (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by senne _
> *the best strategy: Release the product for Mac & Windows for a year or so.... Then after that, release 2.0 for only Mac. THAT would attract win-users to our platforum! *



If a  program did that to lure me i'd surely drop that program in no time flat.  That's horrible strategy if you ask me.  

I do think Document, Safari, and Keynote should work on both platforms.  If you can't get Windows users to switch, then at least get them to run your software.

Twister


----------



## Pengu (Jan 29, 2003)

I don't ever think apple will develop Safari for Windows. They have given us, their loyal customers a browser for free. Why should they give the same browser to Windows users? People won't buy a browser. And it doesn't open a proprietary file-format. As for Keynote. I haven't seen it so i don't know what it's like. As far as I can see, apple continues to develop quicktime for windows, to retain the "industry standard" label it has given to it, and to keep it  a viable production media for users. However. They are primarily still trying to lure Windows users to MacOS remember..

Pengu


----------



## twister (Jan 29, 2003)

"industry standard" is exactly it.  That's why Microsoft IE and Office are so popular.  Business know that they can use it on either platforms and it will fulfill all their needs.


----------



## senne (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by twister _
> *That's why Microsoft IE and Office are so popular.  Business know that they can use it on either platforms and it will fulfill all their needs. *



but both work better on Win, so they stay there


----------



## sheepguy42 (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by senne _
> *but both work better on Win, so they stay there *


hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
hahahahahahahahahaha
*cough*
um...yeah, whatever...
sorry, the though of Office working better on Win after using Office 97, 2000, XP on PC and 98, 2001, X on Mac just kinda did that too me. Anyway, Businesses are going to start to really have options, other choices in what software they use, because soon standards will make it so you can choose software based on features and stability rather than compatibility with the world. It is already beginning, slowly, and will keep gaining momentum. We just have to keep pushing it forward.


----------



## senne (Jan 29, 2003)

don't tell me that IE is working better on OS X than on Windows.


----------



## senne (Jan 29, 2003)

and IE on Win is much better than Safari on OSX. Does safari has a PDF-viewer-plug-in? A Windows Media Player-plugin? MSN-buddylist-plug-in (in our case an iChat-plugin)? Does hotmail work properly on Safari? (i mean the Word-likely menubar on top of your mail, where you can select emoticons, font, bold/italic/underline, size, ....). Does Safari show online and offline buddy-icons next to your mails? Does the scrollbar of safari changes when you surf to www.macosx.com ? ectera.....


----------



## senne (Jan 29, 2003)

and don't begin with the "Do we need that"-bullshit.


----------



## sheepguy42 (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by senne _
> *don't tell me that IE is working better on OS X than on Windows. *


IE is not part of Office, and I was talking about Office. Also, I find Safari faster on my mac than IE on machines running Win2k at school; of course, such a comparison is unfair until Safari is finished. As far as working better, this site never killed IE for Mac's ability to load many graphics. Back during the brief time of the really dark blue theme, loading this site was a graphic killer in IE (and no other browser) on the PC's here at school, and on others everywhere (as discussed in another thread). I can have multiple windows open on my Mac without multiple "instances" of IE, which I think is part of what drags Windows down in terms of multitasking, but I think Hulkaros would know more than I on that subject. Of course, you can always attribute that to the OS rather than IE, but it greatly affects how well the browser works for _me_. Also in Mac IE, I don't have the issue of accidentally installing some 3rd party toolbar that takes up a rediculous amout of screenspace...people do that all the time on the machines at PSU (mostly the Yahoo bar).


----------



## sheepguy42 (Jan 29, 2003)

Since you added more while I was typing, I'll add some more now as to plugins  and other features possibly missing in Safari: *it isn't done yet!* You can't compare these 2 yet. And Hotmail does work on IE on my mac. I believe Hulkaros puts it best when he tells people they are not comparing "apples to apples;" you are telling me I am wrong about office because of IE, but IE isn't in office. Then you say I am wrong about IE being better on Win than Mac because Safari isn't as good as IE on Win. But Safari is not IE, and is not finished at that.


----------



## hulkaros (Jan 29, 2003)

First of all, lets just say that IE is better on Windows than Mac, ok?
-Well, it MUST be better because it is version 6.xx on Windows while on the Mac is stucked at 5.xx
-It MUST be better because supposedly is a part of Windows OS whereareas on the Mac is just another app
-It MUST be better because the team who works in the Windows version is HUGE while, and this is the best part, the whole Mac team responsible for all Microsoft products on the Mac is just 150 people

But then again on the Mac we don't get all those security holes, viruses, etc. as well as we don't get THAT many crashes while using IE 

I don't know about you but last time I checked, security and stability as well as performance is the best next thing and NOT just features... So, you see, maybe just maybe, IE for OS X is a better version of IE for Windows  Oh, and here is the best part of IE for OS X which I do not trade with any feature of the IE6 of Windows: I can Trash the IE for X if I don't want it... Can you do this in Windows? 

As for Safari, while great it is just a beta of the unreleased version 1... Can one imagine when the app will go up to version 6 what's going to be like? I for one can't. However, I bet that M$ would like to have what currently Safari has even with version 5.xx of IE for Windows 

As for Apple offering their software for Windows: While I think that it would be cool, I think that is not even possible without compromising the quality of their software... Example: Even on Mac where Apple has 90% control of the hardware they try hard to make software so stable and awesome in general. That's why we see from time to time updates which make an already ok app, a better one... I hate to admit it but the only way for Apple to produce the same quality software on the Dark Side is the way of giving them first the OS X and then everything else 

Also, note that they currently offer the iPod and QuickTime which basically are the same as the Mac versions but the Dark Side seems not to bother THAT much with them... And you know why? Simply because they aren't coming from M$ with their Windows + they cannot understand the difference between quality and el cheapo stuff out there...

Last, I hope that Apple will offer us not just an Office alternative in features but also a better suite in stability, compatibility, performance, integration with the ability to scale upwards (small, medium, medium to large, large networks) because right now this a BIG hole in Apple's switch thing + games... But this is a story for some other time


----------



## chevy (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by AdmiralAK _
> *Nice news
> Now all we need is an Excel type of application
> My university/job still is M$ dominatrixed so I would still use Office at work, but I would probably use the Apple suite at home if it were good enough.  My boss got KeyNote which he used and he said it wasn't as fully featured as Powerpoint as he thought (he is a machead although the university is forcing his hand on the PC fire) and he expected it to overcome powerpoint. I hope both apps (Document and KeyNote excel past M$ word).
> ...



Excel started it life on... McIntosh ! Yes in 1984 if I remember correctly, being a better "Multiplan". And it helped selling lots of Mac Plus.

Then it moved to Windows...

Beating IE has been done several times, beating PowerPoint is probably no problem, beating Word is probably possible, beating Excel will be a real challenge that nobody succeeded until now.


----------



## ex2bot (Jan 29, 2003)

Hotmail stinks. Period. Ugh. At least free Hotmail does. Well, come to think of it, a friend had MSN with Hotmail. It stank too. 

Just my humble opinion.


----------



## Pengu (Jan 30, 2003)

Honestly. To complain because a MICROSOFT site doesn't load all the sh!t that they have added to IE's rendering engine. Sure, it looks pretty in IE. And hey, who gives a toot about standards. It's not like they're here to help us or anything is it?
As for the ipod for windows. As far as I know, it was the same thing with a different program in place of iTunes. 



Pengu


----------



## sheepguy42 (Jan 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by dktrickey _
> *Hotmail stinks. Period. Ugh. At least free Hotmail does. Well, come to think of it, a friend had MSN with Hotmail. It stank too.
> 
> Just my humble opinion. *


And one I totally agree with....ever since M$ bought Hotmail, Hotmail has sucked. You know, before that Hotmail was served on UNIX servers....
...AND WORKED!!!
Also, I did _*NOT*_ appreciate being forced to have a passport account just because I happened to sign up for a good free webmail service before it was owned by M$. I am not a M$ user, and I never will be. I want no part of .NET at all.


----------

