# The UK and America



## Qion (May 13, 2008)

It seems that with each passing week, I'm introduced to more despise and hatred from British people towards Americans. Whether it be on You Tube, the blogs I frequent, or simply on television, it seems that a fair number of people think America are a bunch of fat ignorant Christians with nothing better to do than eat cheese, watch American football, and generally wallow in their overblown patriotism and inflated egos from wars past.

I know that a fair number of people on this board hail from the UK, so please enlighten me. Our socioeconomic status here in America is frighteningly backwards, and a good number of hicks still believe in slavery, but we've places like New York and Silicon Valley where innovation and modernity is flourishing. Honestly, we're not all Christian, and over 50% of us disagree with Bush's foreign policy.

At any rate... please respond.


----------



## Tommo (May 13, 2008)

I think that it is caused by an unfortunate stereotype image that people he have been exposed to. As in all countries a lot of peoples perspectives on other nationalities is a direct result of the portrait painted by the media, notably television rather than personal experience.

In the same way the British are regarded as a race of binge drinking hooligans by half of southern Europe who suffer a high level of British tourism. Indeed if some of our press is taken as gospel then a lot of Brits would feel that as well, but the majority of us are nothing like that.

These stereotypes have been around for quite a while, but it seems to be more acceptable now for people to express these views quite strongly, often hiding behind the anonymity of the internet. If I was to make a comment, America, rather than Americans, often comes across as wanting to run the world and have everything their own way, even with their allies which does influence some people's opinion..

Having been to America on a number of occasions, that is not the experience when you are there and I have always found the people very friendly and helpful with levels of service in shops, restaurants etc we can only dream of over here.


----------



## Rhisiart (May 13, 2008)

American foreign policy sucks and the rest of America has to pay the price for this.

P.S. You know the old saying:

_On the whole the Americans are bloody awful, but individually they are very nice, whereas on the whole the British are very nice, but individually are bloody awful._

A generalization of course.


----------



## Giaguara (May 14, 2008)

In many places people think that internet is anonymous. So that they can express their hatred and ignorance when they are so anonymous (never mind their visits and IP are always logged to the server where they left the comment...) meaning they say things they would not say face to face. It's not just the UK, but at least their comments are easier to read as you won't need to learn a new language.

Now what would be interesting is if all the EU countries started to do as BS and long and painful processes for getting a visa, or even visiting ("how long are you going to visit? but I see you have been in Europe 3 years ago already... how are you going to sustain yourself?" etc etc). Even when the prices for everything for Europeans are going down, many don't want to visit US after previously having been treated inappropriately by the TSA. And it's sad that it's easier to bring a dog from abroad than a spouse (including Europeans, Canadians etc).


----------



## Satcomer (May 14, 2008)

I can only speak from my experience as an older American. In my travels younger Frenchmen are the worst about thinking I am George Bush and want to vent on me even though I have said NOTHING to them! I am always just going to meetings I had to go to. In the UK this happened a lot less. Scotland was the best though. People there were kind and helpful when i was lost trying to find my way. 

To me there seems to be a small youth culture emerging in the western EU that thinks it is fashionable to hate Americans.

I believe there are rude people ALL around the world.


----------



## bbloke (May 18, 2008)

Interesting topic, Qion.  A bit of a thorny one too!  I'll try to give you a very honest picture of my experiences.

I think there is a combination of factors.  One is that the British sense of humor can be quirky, and so a lot of comments can come across as being aggressive or insulting when they were not originally intended to be.  I remember being told years ago that if British people insult you, it means they like you (friends tend to take the mick out of each other), but the worst situation was where they ignored you, which was a sign of indifference!  That said, I realize there will be others out there who do mean things in a harsher sense.  

There certainly are those who go by stereotypes of fat, sedentary Americans who have little understanding of the world outside their own borders.  Then again, the UK has people like that too!  There's plenty of unhealthy lifestyles in both countries.  I also wouldn't worry about the "Christian" label, I think people are more specifically concerned about Protestant fundamentalism (e.g. teaching Creationism, etc.).  While stereotypes do exist, I know plenty of Brits who enjoy travelling to the US or enjoy the company of Americans.  It also reminds me of the English attitude towards the French; there's plenty of griping about them, but France is also a favorite holiday destination for many English people!

To be honest, I often find myself in the middle.  I've often defended the US to people in the UK, to the point where they thought I was heavily pro-US.  At other times, I've encountered very gung-ho people from the US, where I've been pointing out some of the less appreciated aspects of American culture or foreign policy, and then I'm seen as anti-US!

Over the years, there have been some gripes that have built up.  When some (not all!) Americans adopt an attitude of boldly wading in and winning World War II for everyone, being the leader of the free world, or having a nation that everyone aspires to, it can get up people's noses.  I think some Brits also feel a bit raw, particularly as the British Empire waned after the war, while American power increased, and Britain has only last year finished paying off its war debts to the US (the UK was quite devastated by the War, and the effects were felt for many years to come).  More recently, many Europeans I have met feel increasingly uncomfortable about the spread of American culture and American business.  While many welcome greater access to these things, there are fears that they must not override existing national characters.

To be honest, if you are noticing a rise in anti-American feeling, I think a lot of it comes from the Bush era.  Bush has done America and Americans absolutely no favors abroad.  He has done tremendous damage in the eyes of many (I believe the world's largest anti-war rallies was held during his era, etc.).  I struggle to think of a time when the US was regarded with more suspicion abroad, and the US has unfortunately become, to many, the bad guy rather than the good guy.  The rather simplistic "good versus evil" approach, and the fact that many US citizens are perceived to go along with it, rather strengthened the stereotypes you have alluded to.  I remember an astonished debate in the media over here, when the question of "why do they hate us so much" was asked in the US after 2001; the question here was along the lines of how Americans could not know what has been done in their names for decades or, if they did, how they could not expect to be resented for it.

Many Europeans will also feel the world has been made a less safe place by them, due to this foreign policy, and that the policies were not well-founded in the first place.  While some Americans refer to cowardly Europeans who won't step up to difficult tasks and who appease regimes, many Europeans will see current US foreign policy as being like a bull in a china shop, leaving a trail of destruction in its wake, and with the expectation that others will pick up the pieces.  There is also perceived hypocrisy, when it comes to how America wants foreign nations to behave or comply with their wishes, but won't reciprocate (e.g. "The Hague Invasion Act," as it was referred to...).  That doesn't help when it comes to adopting moral high-ground.

Anyway, the above are not necessarily my views, so please don't see it as an attack.  I'm just trying to honestly relay what I think could be behind some of what you described.  But, hey, perhaps Rhisiart was closer to the point and in far fewer words!


----------



## Rhisiart (May 19, 2008)

I would add to this by saying that America and Britain have as many similarities as differences. 

As bbloke rightly points out, we have many obese citizens in Britain too. 

The US has crass TV, but in Britain we have a pathetically childish newspapers. 

Many Americans have no knowledge of where places are in the world, but many Britons are just as geographically challenged.

Dubya recklessly went to war in Iraq, but the British Parliament backed him to the hilt.

If the British hate the Americans, why do so many radio DJs and TV presenters in Britain put on a false American accent (admittedly this is a little less common now).

America is a violent country full of hoods and rednecks, right? So how come London's crime rate has now exceeded New York?

For me Britain's going to hell in a handcart, which is a shame as most Brits are decent people. We seem to have imported the worst aspects of America, without importing the very best of the US.

P.S. Do I sound bitter?


----------



## sgould (May 19, 2008)

I think that attitudes vary with the frequency of exposure to other cultures.  In the UK nowhere is more than 75 miles from the coast.  And the coast is where you meet people of different cultures.  An american can travel 1500 miles and not meet anyone other than americans. 

Our american friends, from the deep south, have travelled the world on military service.  They reckon that the big problem is suspicion of the unknown, and that meeting people from different cultures and finding them to be friendly helps. Traditionally those places to meet were near seaports, but would now also be at airports and holiday resorts.

I'm on holiday in Italy at the moment, I'm 1000 miles from home.  I've driven through eight different countries and had to communicate in three different languages. Everyone has been friendly and helpful.  Trying to speak a few words in the local language helps too.  It's amazing the number of people who cannot speak English until you have tried a "good morning" in their language first!!

In Venice we met a Nigerian, who says that London was the least racist place he has ever been to.  Most other places he found less tolerant of people who are "different", and he has been travelling and working in Europe for five years.


----------



## Giaguara (May 19, 2008)

Americans can drive 1500 miles and not run to a non-American... unless they go to a burger place, order a coffee, shop at a low-paid chain, or have their home cleaned or their children minded by the undocumented...
And when they drive that 1500 miles and see a Spanish person, from Spain, they keep asking which part of Mexico Spain is in..


----------



## fryke (May 19, 2008)

It surprises me that this (the whole subject) is surprising you, qion. In the past 7 years, the administration has broken a *lot* of porcelaine. It might take 10-15 years to restore the US' image among "old friends" (you know, that "old Europe" G.W. was talking about).
Usually, when I talk with friends about the state of the US' image, they _do_ see California, New York and Massachusetts as exceptions, btw., and they sure hope the next American president will be a democrat.

To make Americans nervous, I usually tell them that our (Switzerland's) right-most party is about as right-wing as the US Democrats, and that yes, we do have more than one party to the left of our conservatives.


----------



## Qion (May 19, 2008)

I really appreciate all of your responses, bbloke's in particular; well thought out, as all of your political posts tend to be. 

Fryke, I never said I was surprised by any of this. If anything, what surprises me is the sheer indifference to alienation my government seems to feel. 

I have a feeling that in this century, we're either going to see the most destructive time in human history, or we're going to see the greatest leap forward in every human paradigm since the Age of Enlightenment. What I feel is that Europe is a bit further ahead than America in this regard, that Switzerland, France, and Britain in particular are trying to move forward rather than deteriorate to war. The "War on Terror" seemed ludicrous to me from the start, but that's a topic for a rainy day. 

I guess I was really just searching for some sort of resolution, that there is more hope than negativity. We're a global society in the realest since; borders mean less every year. It's about people, individuals, and I hate that my government forces upon me an image I digress from.


----------



## Rhisiart (May 19, 2008)

Qion said:


> We're a global society in the realest since; borders mean less every year. It's about people, individuals, and I hate that my government forces upon me an image I digress from.


Yes, but what is the alternative? Anarchy? We have to have some organization, and the best so far is nation states, however imperfect our nations are. 

Indeed, not all of us fit neatly into national stereotypes. I have three identities. I'm Welsh first, British second and European third. I'm also an internationalist who would love nothing more that to see an equitable global society. 

Big words I know, but my ethos is to stand for what you are for, not what you are against. 

I am intelligent enough to recognize that not all Americans are ultra-Christian fanatics, just as not all Welsh people are English-hating zealots.

Let the stupid let off steam and rant and rave about who they hate. The rest of us can revel in our differences and celebrate them for what they are.


----------



## Qion (May 19, 2008)

Rhisiart said:


> Let the stupid let off steam and rant and rave about who they hate. The rest of us can revel in our differences and celebrate them for what they are.



I'm with that.

However, -I apologize for my profound cynicism- what the hell is this world going to do about itself? We've governmental organizations focused primarily on protecting us from ourselves, and if this is truly the case, where does it lead? When our nation states collapse, as is historical fact, what might we do? I do not understand to this day, in this age, with the knowledge, resources, technology, medicines, love, camaraderie, art, design, etc. that we have why we can't live peacefully. Too many people, too many religions, too many radical ideals I suppose. Too many hormones, too many mentals, too many carbon dioxides... whatever. I don't think anarchy would be so terrible; at least with that, we'd figure out exactly where we're heading a hell of a lot quicker.


----------



## Viro (May 19, 2008)

I'm going to be blunt and say that most people are stupid. They're very easily influenced by what they read in the media and they rarely _ever_ engage the grey matter that God blessed them with.

Take Britain for example. When Gordon Brown took over as Prime Minister over a year ago, I nearly died. Here was someone who was completely useless as Chancellor, completely weak as a person and so bland that he makes bangers and mash look like an exotic meal. Yet for the first 6 months of his premiership, the media fawned over him. And people fawned over him(!!). It's like they suffered severe amnesia and 10 years of Gordon Brown's pathetic Chancellorship was forgotten. Lack of critical thinking.

Then you have President Bush. I think no other subject is as effective in bringing out the nasty side of the British. A typical discourse goes along the lines of...
"Bush is stupid"
"Why do you say that?"
"He's stupid"
"Can you name any specific examples?"
"He invaded Iraq"
"Why is that stupid?"
"It just is"

A slightly more well read person will respond by saying:
"Invading a country is wrong"
"Do you support Western intervention in Darfur?"
"Yes"
"So how do you reconcile that with your opposition to intervention in Iraq?"

An even more well read person will say:
"He ignored the UN and went ahead on his own, setting a dangerous precedent as it undermines the authority of the UN"
"Did you support western intervention in Bosnia?"
"Uh, what? ..."


While George Bush is by no means the perfect president, the majority of people who are critical of him have very little clue themselves. They're doing it because it's what all the "cool kids" do, it's what the columnists in the papers do, etc. Rarely do they ever think critically.

There is a lot about Bush that annoys me. However, there is a lot that he does that truly amazes me. For example, if you care about Fair Trade and poverty in the third world, you will be quite amazed (as I was) to learn what he is trying to do with US farming policy. 

Well, that's my 2 pence on the subject.


----------



## Satcomer (May 19, 2008)

On a lighter note, tell me why I rather prefer UK humor over todays US comedy?


----------



## rubaiyat (May 19, 2008)

Qion said:


> I have a feeling that in this century, we're either going to see the most destructive time in human history, or we're going to see the greatest leap forward in every human paradigm since the Age of Enlightenment. What I feel is that Europe is a bit further ahead than America in this regard, that Switzerland, France, and Britain in particular are trying to move forward rather than deteriorate to war. The "War on Terror" seemed ludicrous to me from the start, but that's a topic for a rainy day.



Interesting that your perspective does not include China, the country who will inherit this century . 

China's rise to probable economic and military dominance is very much in the mind of the US administration who is finding it hard to let go of the "only Superpower" status, and I think they are making the most of it whilst they still have it.

There are some small signs that China may move away from totalitarianism, probably under the care of younger technocrats, but I can't see how it will escape endemic corruption. In all probability it will be become a larger version of Singapore, delivering prosperity to those who will not buck the system.

As for the division between the secular non-Muslim world and the rest, the problem is one of population. The Moslem populations are exploding whilst the secular non-Muslims are shrinking. This combined with a cultural proclivity to insularity and vengence on perceived slights is giving the Moslems a disproportionate say in the world without actually contributing much positively to it.

The average Muslim is as ignorant of the West and USA as the USA is ignorant of them. This is extremely dangerous as it will lead to even more of the misjudgements of motives and actions than we have already had.

We have had a brief break in the proliferation of nuclear weapons after India, Pakistan and North Korea all broke into the nuclear club. Israel did its break very quietly and so stayed under the radar except in the minds of its enemies.

Step 2 will be Iran and its neighbours. Then we are back on the brink again.

But to get back on subject. America is on the nose because of Bush. America has Bush as leader because Americans seem to be largely ignorant of the world, science, politics and most matters outside their neighbourhood. 

Particularly at fault is the American political system which is IMHO corrupt and designed to keep all except the financial elite out of it, hence the extremely low voter turnout. 

I have posted before on this and the many measures that can be made to correct the USA democracy but given that most Americans have little to compare it to, let alone see its faults, they have an unswerving belief that everything they are told about being the best democracy in the world is true.


----------



## rubaiyat (May 19, 2008)

Viro, should we do a "Bush is stupid, because&#8230;" thread?

Letterman has been doing something similar for a long time and still hasn't run out of ammunition.

The only thing I will credit Bush for is rat cunning, in the aid of "the right people" such as rich mates, the christian right and people who agree with him because actually working on the hard stuff and really finding out what is going on is for "liberal" wimps.

An insight into his small world view was an interview I saw in which he was asked for a reaction to events in Paris and he appeared slightly confused, then said "Paris, Texas*?"

* Pop 25,898


----------



## Viro (May 20, 2008)

rubaiyat said:


> ...working on the hard stuff and really finding out what is going on is for "liberal" wimps.



I actually agree with everything you've said, about China, the general perception of the US, etc. Apart from this.

I have seen little to no evidence to back such a claim. There are numerous examples to cite, and I'll give you a few which appear to be a zeitgeist of the liberal mindset in _America_ (so all the usual caveats apply).

1) San Francisco + Code Pink vs USMC + US Navy. Many of the liberals in this very liberal city equate Marines as Bush's hitmen, baby killers, murderers, etc. They campaign really hard to have recruitment centres shut down, fleet day cancelled, etc. Yet these very same people castigate the US government for not sending in troops to Sudan ... Interesting worldview, if I might say so. 

2) Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW). This appears to be the latest fad that preoccupies the liberal elite, and any one who dares to question the validity of AGW is immediately branded a right wing, Christian fundamentalist who hates science. This conveniently ignores the hundreds of scientific papers and scientists who disagree with the premise of AGW. To make matters even worse, the great Al Gore, patron saint of the church of AGW doesn't appear to believe the church's tenets. How else do you explain his household consuming 10x more electricity than the national average while he claims that humanity is on the brink of destruction?

3) World poverty. Campaigning for Fair Trade, buying Fair Trade goods, etc are all good things to do. However, liberals generally support the Dems. San Fran liberals love Pelosi. The Dems (particularly Pelosi) push for higher subsidies to American farmers, many who are experiencing record yields (!!). This in turn leads to an overproduction of goods, which then flood the markets, which then lower the price for producers everywhere else in the world. In 2006, it is estimated $2.6 billion was generated for third world growers through Fair Trade produce. On the other hand, these subsidies to US farmers cost the third world producers $24 billion annually (!!!). Guess what keeps this bill alive? Bush is doing his best to take down this bill as it goes through Congress. 


The problem with the whole Bush is Stupid thing, is that it hinges on comments and ad hominem attacks on G. W. Bush. I agree that it's great fun and he just presents such a juicy target 

But if you do like what Obama says and actually engage with the issues, Bush demonstrates some very astute political acumen. In fact, I dare say he demonstrates some cojones. Working on the "hard stuff" is rarely ever done by the "liberals".


----------



## Qion (May 20, 2008)

Rubaiyat... maybe I took your posting a bit too personally, but I have the feeling you think I'm ignorant of what I'm talking about. I do not, as you describe, leave China out of my "perspective". If anything, I was giving three countries a compliment. China isn't exactly the role model of progressivism, you know what I mean? 

We do have publications here in America, and every once in a while between pandering to what Bush tells me to think, I'll read one. Bokay? I've never been hugely intrigued by politics, and I've never pursued a degree in political science, but I keep myself as informed and up to date as any world-knowing Brit might. 

I'll agree that it seems like a lot of Americans are ignorant of what's happening in the world, but honestly man do you believe what you're saying? We have millions upon millions of forward-thinking individuals in America. We're not our government. The established system is the issue here, not the sheer ignorance of our population. I believe the same negative ideas you have about the American people could quite easily be related back to most other countries as well. It's a tad pomp, honestly, for you to generalize so boldly that "most" of us think we're the greatest country in the world! That's an idea for centenarians! The century old self-righteous patriotic bullshit is all but left to the deep south and bits of the quickly shrinking blue collar middle class. If you notice, Bush isn't hugely adored by his people; there are a lot of reasons he's still in office, but public opinion isn't one of them.


----------



## rubaiyat (May 20, 2008)

Viro,

Hypocrisy has many bedmates. I've been in many good causes where I sincerely cringe at the ignorance and plain absurd thinking of my co-espousers, but that's humanity. 50% below the average IQ.

Global Warming is beyond a fad and only those so wrapped up in themselves and their lifestyle, that they don't want to hear "unpleasantness", deny it. No matter how many (and they aren't many) poodle scientists you might like to quote.

I am very aware of what you are saying about World poverty. Sadly both the Republican and Democrat policies are damaging to free world trade. You cite the Democrats but the Mid West corn belt and Cuban sugar barons have done very well out of Bush and tossed a nice fat tip back into Bush's coffers as a thank you.

Bush is not exactly stupid, but I have heard his IQ has been assessed at about 127 which puts him pretty low down by my standards and particularly Presidential standards.

The problem is a lot of Americans seem to take him as a Joe Average and not one of those snooty intellectuals like Gore. They ignore his unaverage family wealth that got him where he is today, because even if he did get it by devious means from the Saudis, money is God in the states (The Father, the Son and the Holy Cash). 

Maybe Paris Hilton should run for president, everyone admires her wealth and likes looking down on her smarts as well.

It seems your definition of the "hard stuff" is the problem here. Global Warming, Health, Education, Commercial & Political Corruption don't appear to make the cut.


----------



## rubaiyat (May 20, 2008)

Qion,

Just look around you. What is in your news, what happens to dissenters, how does your Supreme Court allow Bush to casually dismiss long standing constitutional standards and international treaty agreements? How many absurd ideas can the average American cling to without anyone noticing?

Yes there are plenty of intelligent thoughtful Americans who I admire immensely. I just wish the rest of the Americans, who bother to vote, did also. Unfortunately it has been a while since we have seen Americans who _genuinely_ espouse the cause of liberty and justice for all, without using it as a cover for personal gain at the expense of those less fortunate than themselves.

Flag waving and cartoon caricatures of foreigners are dragging America into its current morass. It has taken nearly 2 whole terms and a trillion dollars down the drain and a heck of a lot of lives for the Public to wake up to what seemed bleeding obvious to the world 7 years ago.

Principally what is obvious to the world is that the States does not see itself as part of the same globe. 

Weirdly I have noticed 2 contrary notions in many Americans I have talked to: that the world really loves America (Iraqis will welcome us with open arms) and that the world really hates America (they are shooting at us!). The part they don't get is the discussions they think they are having with everyone else is just conversations with themselves, where they ignore everything everyone else says.


----------



## Qion (May 20, 2008)

rubaiyat said:


> Qion,
> 
> Just look around you. What is in your news, what happens to dissenters, how does your Supreme Court allow Bush to casually dismiss long standing constitutional standards and international treaty agreements? How many absurd ideas can the average American cling to without anyone noticing?
> 
> ...



Interestingly enough, I've planned my move out of America for a couple years now. I've been researching industrial arts opportunities abroad so that I might escape all the hells of the American system to a saner state. 

I agree with you, I honestly do. I, however, do not wish ill on the entire face of the American people, and I may go a bit far to protect myself and people like myself from what Bush and the lower 50% have done.


----------



## rubaiyat (May 20, 2008)

There was a debate along very similar lines in the NY Times forum recently. Interestingly many Americans who lived abroad chimed in and it seemed the longer the exposure to the outside world the wider the eyes were opened.

I hope you do make it O.S. 

Sadly not enough Americans do, due to your extremely short annual vacations.


----------



## Rhisiart (May 20, 2008)

rubaiyat said:


> ....Bush is not exactly stupid, but I have heard his IQ has been assessed at about 127 which puts him pretty low down by my standards...


Hey that's my IQ score! 

I don't think Bush is stupid. I think he's canny and smart, with a very dry sense of humour. It's his policies (and that of his cronies) that I despair over, not him as an individual.

It's like Maggie Thatcher. Her polices sucked big time, but you had to admire her for her fortitude. In fact in his early days, Churchill had some pretty repulsive attitudes to the British working class and British colonial subjects.

Newt Ginrich was once asked who was a better president; Reagan or Carter. Reagan he replied. He wasn't as wholesome as Carter, but Reagan knew what he didn't know. Carter simply didn't know what he didn't know. And this is a very serious flaw in a leader.

I suspect Dubya is more like Reagan. He knows what he is doing, unfortunately to most people's disdain.


----------



## rubaiyat (May 20, 2008)

Not being stupid is not enough. That just elevates Bush into the realm of mediocrity. He copes by simplifying the world and by governing for the few. The few gave him plenty of money to fuel his campaigns out of the money and opportunities he preferentially passed their way. He was a good investment for people who already had money but wanted more.

In the long term the fudging, lies, cheating and plain ridiculousness of his policies are peeled back to reveal the sad, small town Texan thinking it was all built upon. The only reason it ever escaped its pathetic origins was it matched the similar small thinking of many Americans and those who saw a chance to make a buck out of it.

I am really anxiously awaiting the results of the next election to see whether the American political system can repair itself, but it certainly shows severe flaws in the checks and balances. Those flaws are possible because of the laziness of Americans in both informing themselves and getting off their cellulite filled butts and voting. 

The key flaw as I see it, and this is not just America, is prosperity corrupts and leads people to want amusement, not information from the media and the media is compelled to comply. It supplies gossip and amusing stories. Any hard stories are kept down into bite size glimpses of the bigger picture which are largely ignored by those who have simplified their world into family, shopping and idle entertainment. 

God comes in only to justify the good life and give the illusion that it will continue forever. Mutter the right phrases and follow the right rituals and rules and you get to keep everything, even after death. 

No matter how mean, vindictive and nasty you are in this life you played it by "the rules" so you get a ticket to paradise. No wonder Americans are in a monumental clash with the Muslim fundamentalists. They are 2 sides of the same coin.


----------



## Rhisiart (May 21, 2008)

rubaiyat said:


> ...prosperity corrupts and leads people to want amusement...


I think you've got that absolutely right. Too many people want to have a 'Peter Pan' lifestyle. I see it all around me.



rubaiyat said:


> No wonder Americans are in a monumental clash with the Muslim fundamentalists. They are 2 sides of the same coin.


Again, I agree. One problem in two flavours.


----------



## Satcomer (May 21, 2008)

rubaiyat said:


> No wonder Americans are in a monumental clash with the Muslim fundamentalists. They are 2 sides of the same coin.



Well this UK citizen thinks the EU is spineless on this subject, Appeasing Islam by Pat Condell.


----------



## rubaiyat (May 21, 2008)

Not just the EU. Bush keeps blathering on about Islam being a religion of peace.

Bollocks! Anyone who has read the Koran knows what a load of turn the other cheek wishful thinking that is.

But despite all that, invading Iraq has jeopardised the revival of Afghanistan as a civilised country and has stuffed the USA's credibility completely.


----------



## Qion (May 22, 2008)

It seems we've all got our problems.

I second rubaiyat in that Islam is _not_ a peaceful religion. I'm not fluent in Arabic, but I have read the Koran in its English translation. It's full to the brim with hatred and radical ideals, a true warring religion if there ever was one. It's very worrying to me as well that Islam is spreading so freely in Africa, a continent with problems more massive than any of the New World's.


----------



## Rhisiart (May 23, 2008)

Ever tried reading the old testament?


----------



## Qion (May 24, 2008)

Rhisiart said:


> Ever tried reading the old testament?



Yes.


----------



## Rhisiart (May 25, 2008)

Fair enough.


----------



## reed (May 25, 2008)

<holy Jesus Mother of God. We have gone from the USA vs the UK and to all that it implies to Islam, the bible and the Chinese. Well, when you think of it, as things stand it's maybe the same thing.....in the long run. Plus "The World Corporation."
  One thing is sure, if I may add my 2 pennies:
 There is New York and the rest of the USA. Hey, we have enough problems with people from New Jersey, let alone the English (I didn't say the UK).
  In fact there is California, NYC and all "those other people." Sounds silly. Right?
  Bush & his gang have been a disaster. Period. Why? The forum doesn't have enough room.
  I have lived in France for a number of years and never have I had a negative jibe against me with the exception of some clown who's daughter passed a very ugly time with a Christian nutcase family and some guy who got ripped off in New Orleans. 
 As for the UK. When I was on the Isle of Skye many, many years ago. I biked to a hostel, but the Warden wasn't in. Some English character with his group told me that the warden wasn't in ..."there is no room for you." I asked if he was in charge....and he said "yes, for the moment." The sun was setting and like most hostels in Scotland there was always a place on the floor. Not with this guy. Luckily, I went to the local Post Office that had a room. Two adorable old ladies not only made me a wonderful "tea" but offered me a bed for the night. They were Scottish of course. 
  In Knighten, Wales, when I stayed with an old friend of my grandfathers (this was during the Munich Olympics in 1972) Guys Rogers was always getting pissed off because the American Antheme was "too bloody long." Off course we had many whiskies to ease the pain.
  So, in a word. if we bash the rednecks and the the like, okay. They deserve it. They are morons and dangerous sometimes. But most importantly we must bash all the A h$les, be it in South Africa (you are aware of what is going on there), China, Louisiana, Jersey City or Golders Green, etc..
  Oh, another thing.... always read the very, very fine prints when you sign a contract with an Englishman. They are the best in contract law.
 Cheers. This is a very good post.

Certain Texans are cool however. See below:

http://www.jimhightower.com/


----------



## Rhisiart (May 26, 2008)

I'm lost for words. However, always a real joy to read your posts reed.


----------



## reed (May 26, 2008)

If you want to see America  in other ways, do check out the jimhightower site. Rather amusing. By the way, I'm a big fan of the English as long as they stop coming to France. Enough is enough. The Dutch as well. My friends in the Drôme tell me this. Here we go....another forum. 
  PS. I don't know if things have changed but when hitchiking in Scotland/Wales/Ireland, I was never picked-up by an English tourist.I often got the famous two fingers as well. Belgians, Russians,  locals, etc. yes. Even a regular bus going to Oban. Why? I never understood. When I think about it though many of them were driving Minis filled to hilt with bagage in those days. Just no room for jerks like me in their car, I guess. It must be noted that when I was on my own I would walk for miles talking to sheep often under the rain and....saying to myself..."what the hell am I doing here!!!". The UK was a paradise for an American student.  Met some really nice gals as well. I won't even talk about the pubs and the great folk I met on the way. Often English. Trust me. Viva the UK.


----------



## duke2k7 (May 26, 2008)

Qion said:


> It seems that with each passing week, I'm introduced to more despise and hatred from British people towards Americans. Whether it be on You Tube, the blogs I frequent, or simply on television, it seems that a fair number of people think America are a bunch of fat ignorant Christians with nothing better to do than eat cheese, watch American football, and generally wallow in their overblown patriotism and inflated egos from wars past.
> 
> I know that a fair number of people on this board hail from the UK, so please enlighten me. Our socioeconomic status here in America is frighteningly backwards, and a good number of hicks still believe in slavery, but we've places like New York and Silicon Valley where innovation and modernity is flourishing. Honestly, we're not all Christian, and over 50% of us disagree with Bush's foreign policy.
> 
> At any rate... please respond.



Hey there!!

I Hail from the UK, and this is my very first post, and quite disturbingly, I have to agree; for some reason, there are a few Britons out there who are far too opinionated, and find pleasure in berating other cultures and nations - don't worry, we aren't all egotistical, chauvenistic dinosaurs that think you guys only brought obesity and slavery to the floor - you guys have so many things that other nations should be proud of it's untrue, and a debate like this makes me sad - I wish everyone could get along. The main thing I have noticed is how a lot of Britons were in favour of the war in Iraq, but decided it incredibly easy to berate the yanks (sorry if you don't like th term guys...) simply cos of a few mistakes with triggers.

I have nothing but respect and awe for my US cousins, and let's face it, anyone who has a problem with the USA, really isn't worth bothering with - they probably couldn't hold this arguement up anyhoo! It is a sad day when someone feels compelled to make their first post on a new site an apology for the way certain members of their 'kinfolk' behave.

Sorry guys, some of us are ok...honest.

by the way, hi to everyone, just got my first Mac to play with - G4 Sawtooth,  and I plan on spening lots of time speaking to you guys (English OR Americanm or french or...yada yada yada)

Take Care,

Rob.


----------



## rubaiyat (May 26, 2008)

Rhisiart said:


> Ever tried reading the old testament?



Jesus seemed to have picked up much more of the philosophies from the East, disseminated through the remnants of Alexander the Great's conquests that stretched all the way to India. 

Buddhism and Zoroastrianism particularly.

Buddha taught the sanctity and unity of life, expressed as "harm no others".

Zarathustra (Zororaster) not only acknowledged only one God, but also believed in; "Good Thoughts, Good Words, Good Deeds."

Yep, it always made me wonder how Jesus continues to be thought of as on the same page as the ancient Hebrews. But then he didn't make it past his 33rd.

Neither did either Christianity or Judaism in the Middle East when Mohammed came along as "God's Enforcer" in the 7th century.


----------



## reed (May 26, 2008)

I'm not sure what Jesus & co. have to do in all this mayhem. Time to start another post, maybe. Unless you are from Mississippi or there abouts. I posted this in "What song are you playing now" but it seemes to sum it up for me here..... cheers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsyRF_i1PSs


----------

