# New PowerMacs released!



## ksv (Aug 13, 2002)

And it IS as ugly as we feared! 

http://store.apple.com/

 Dual 867MHz PowerPC G4
256K L2 cache
& 1MB L3 cache/processor
133MHz System Bus
256MB PC2100 DDR SDRAM
60GB Ultra ATA drive
Combo drive (DVD/CD-RW)
NVIDIA GeForce4 MX
56K internal modem

Shipping in 1-3 days 

 Dual 1GHz PowerPC G4
256K L2 cache
& 1MB L3 cache/processor
167MHz System Bus
256MB PC2700 DDR SDRAM
80GB Ultra ATA drive
SuperDrive (DVD-R/CD-RW)
ATI Radeon 9000 Pro
56K internal modem

Shipping in 1-3 days 

 Dual 1.25GHz PowerPC G4
256K L2 cache
& 2MB L3 cache/processor
167MHz System Bus
512MB PC2700 DDR SDRAM
120GB Ultra ATA drive
SuperDrive (DVD-R/CD-RW)
ATI Radeon 9000 Pro
56K internal modem

Shipping in 6-8 weeks

 Dual 1.25GHz PowerPC G4
256K L2 cache
& 2MB L3 cache/processor
167MHz System Bus
2.0GB PC2700 DDR SDRAM
120GB Ultra ATA drive
SuperDrive & Combo drive
NVIDIA GeForce4 Titanium
56K internal modem

Shipping in 6-8 weeks


I'm impressed!


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## Matrix Agent (Aug 13, 2002)

If by "ugly" you meant that the machine isn't suitable to even sit under my desk, then you'd be correct.

If by "ugly" you meant that this machine would be a complete waste of money because the specs are just too little too late, then you'd be correct.

I doubt we'll see people lined up to buy this beast.


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## Paragon (Aug 13, 2002)

Actually I think I'm buying one, but that's just because I don't have a mac anymore and I was looking forward to this new release.

Now is the lowend one faster than the "old" dual gig? I mean does the ram mean that much?


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## ksv (Aug 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Paragon _
> *Now is the lowend one faster than the "old" dual gig? I mean does the ram mean that much? *



I guess it will "feel" faster, but in pure processing power it's a little bit slower.


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## Paragon (Aug 13, 2002)

Hhmmm...I thought so.

So is it worth it to put down the extra $ to go for the next in the line. How much faster would it be?


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## vitaboy (Aug 13, 2002)

Depends on what your current machine is. But consider that for $129 to upgrade to Jaguar, you can see a signficant performance boost in any OS X-capable machine. 

Is it worth $1700 to ante in when in all likelihood, G5-based pro desktops may only be 5 months away? Heck, you don't even get things like USB 2.0, 800 Mbits/sec FireWire, 54 Mbits/sec wireless or integrated Bluetooth in the current machines - all of which has more than an even chance of being standardized by 2003.


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## Paragon (Aug 13, 2002)

Allright, this is what I've been wanting to know, and I STILL cant figure it out, can someone confirm, with evidence ?

Is the DDR on this machine a Hack a La Xserve, or is it "FULL" DDR ?


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## fryke (Aug 13, 2002)

according to maccentral it is 'full' DDR-SDRAM. buy the new 1 GHz machine. it'll give you a DVD-RW, too. but yes, the DDR-SDRAM _will_ have an impact, although maybe not that much, so an 'old' GHz dual might be faster than the new 867 still.


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## AdmiralAK (Aug 13, 2002)

what on god's green earth is that ?! its not even a G5


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## Paragon (Aug 13, 2002)

so the new dual 867 has the exact same setup as the xserve?

...so howcome they put in a ram type that supports 266 but their bus only supports 133? Is their going to be a feature to bump up the bus to 266 like on a pc (is that what they are doing on pc's?)


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## serpicolugnut (Aug 13, 2002)

Although the DP 867 does have DDR RAM, which is an improvement over the previous 1ghz DP QuickSilver, I believe the 1ghz DP QS had 2MB cache for each processor, whereas the 867DP only has 1MB cache.

Overall, I doubt the low end 867DP is overall faster than the 1ghz DP QS was. It's probably close, but I'd still probably give the edge to the QS...Backside cache means a lot in real world performance. It's one of the main reasons why Macs have remained competitive, while getting their clocks cleaned in the mhz race....


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## rhale1 (Aug 13, 2002)

WOW! They did it again. All DP, DDR SDRAM, up to 4 Internal HD.

Can we get PC people to be quiet about "Dual Intel or AMD's are better", or even "PC are better"?

My favorite image from the new PM so far:





So shiny...


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## rhale1 (Aug 13, 2002)

Also, are Apple and ATI "happy" again? I thought that they were in some disagreement on Graphics Cards.

But, on the chart, nothing can beat the NVIDIA GeForce 4 Ti .


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## Nummi_G4 (Aug 13, 2002)

What about the system bus? only 166mhz? Doesnt Intel have fricken 400mhz?


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## Paragon (Aug 13, 2002)

Well I think I'm getting the dual gig, although I think the dual 867 is like getting an "old" dual gig for half the price.

I just think that the dual gig have a longer life-span.

What do you think?


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## themacko (Aug 13, 2002)

holy shi*t it's hideous!!


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## deagle five o (Aug 13, 2002)

anybody else realized that they are bringing back the ATI chipsets?


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## Oscar Castillo (Aug 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by themacko _
> *holy shi*t it's hideous!!
> 
> 
> *



I know I've been saying that since I saw the SpyMac pics.  It's like take all the scrap they had laying around slapped it all together.
The specs and the duallies all around just smells of a stopgap system.
I may get the low-end one once I get rid of the PowerMac 800 I bought last month.  Ebay here I come.


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## squidbite (Aug 13, 2002)

The problem with the new line is of course that the mhz offerings suck, but moreso, the pricing seems out of whack. $5,000 for that top-of-the-line machine? Who's going to buy that?

Also, what on earth would you need a SuperDrive AND a ComboDrive for?  The only thing useful/justifying a larger price tag is the graphics card.


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## WoLF (Aug 13, 2002)

those pentiums have a 533MHz front side bus, maybe even higher than that.


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## Paragon (Aug 13, 2002)

isen't that because they use 133 MHz x 4 on their bus?


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## Koelling (Aug 13, 2002)

> isen't that because they use 133 MHz x 4 on their bus?


 yeah it is so just like the dual processors give performance boosts on 'some' applications, this would seem like our 133 bus unless it was multithreaded in the right way.


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## Koelling (Aug 13, 2002)

Hey, who's bright idea was it to name this thread the same as the fake one that was a week or two ago. I very nearly skipped over it and wouldn't have known there was new PM's till much later in the day. What a tragedy that would be.


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## Ricky (Aug 13, 2002)

Looks like a true Frankenmac to me.  

Completely fugly...  However a Dual machine is sounding real nice right now...


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## DualG4X (Aug 13, 2002)

looks like the engeneres that designed the mobo of the new dual's are the ones that designed the case, was that bald french dude on vacation or wut ?

case: 
Mobo/cpu: Sweet  

and hey 166Mhz (333) buss  is better than most 133Mhz(266) bus most pc are running right now
and even the future  ddr 400 (200Mhz buss)mem beat intels 1000+MHz rambus mem


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## DualG4X (Aug 13, 2002)

n wut the hell are those holes on the bottom  ?


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## ksv (Aug 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by DualG4X _
> *n wut the hell are those holes on the bottom  ? *



"Decorative airvents"


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## DualG4X (Aug 13, 2002)

instead of putting a superdrive n a combo drive, they should have put a supurdrive n a fast 40x burner, ever since apple started putting in burners in thir macs , they have always chosen the slowest they could find , how lame


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## Urbansory (Aug 13, 2002)

I think they wanted to give it a souped up look of a muscle car from the 60's and 70's. Stick a chrome SS on there somewhere and that's what you'll have.


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## ksv (Aug 13, 2002)

Yup, Apple has misunderstood the principle of having two drive bays. Haha, what the heck would the point of having both a superdrive and a combo drive be? Burn a CD while watching a DVD, or watching 2 DVDs simultaniously? 

It's no real problem, you can just install a fast CD burner or reader yourself, but still...


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## hazmat (Aug 13, 2002)

Dammit.  Less than a year of having my G4 867 it's almost antiquated?  Granted it has 896 megs of RAM and a SuperDrive, but still.  Ack.


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## MDLarson (Aug 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ksv _
> *Yup, Apple has misunderstood the principle of having two drive bays. Haha, what the heck would the point of having both a superdrive and a combo drive be? Burn a CD while watching a DVD, or watching 2 DVDs simultaniously?  *


I'm wondering about this too.  With the new 2 optical drives, insert a CD-ROM and burn an exact copy real-time or something?  That would be nice no copying a disc image to the HD.


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## Sogni (Aug 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ksv _
> *Yup, Apple has misunderstood the principle of having two drive bays. Haha, what the heck would the point of having both a superdrive and a combo drive be? Burn a CD while watching a DVD, or watching 2 DVDs simultaniously?
> 
> It's no real problem, you can just install a fast CD burner or reader yourself, but still...  *



What? Am I the only one who burns multiple CDs at the same time? Or even does a straight copy from a 2nd CDrom drive? 
And the idea to be watching a Movie while a friend comes over to make a CD for him - it'd be a bugger to have to stop the movie completly instea of pausing it, start the burn process and resume the movie...

Anyway, the company I work for has CANCLED the XServe and we're getting the new Frankenmac - err I mean PowerMac 
And yeah - we're getting BOTH a SuperDrive _AND_ a ComboDrive.


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## ksv (Aug 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Tormente _
> *
> 
> What? Am I the only one who burns multiple CDs at the same time? Or even does a straight copy from a 2nd CDrom drive?
> ...



Well, OK, But I'd rather put a fast CD burner or DVD-ROM in the other bay than having _two_  dog-slow drives


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## chemistry_geek (Aug 13, 2002)

I have to say that I'm disappointed in Apple's latest offerings.  While they are an improvement over previous hardware, the MEGAHURTS MYTH parallels Motorola's work ethic and motivation for better R & D.  Let's face it folks, until Apple can get those brand spankin' new IBM 64-bit PowerPC POWER4 variant's in our Power Macs (sorry, link not available, I'm too lazy to go find it), "there ain't gonna be nothin' new under the sun for a while".  And *5 GRAND!!!* for the top-of-the-line!!???  With *167 MEGAHURTS* system bus!!???  Isn't Intel at, like, 400MHz?  What's $teve been $mokin'?  What is his source of cannabinoids?

MOSR has a very detailed review of the *ACTUAL* throughput of the system.


> *From Mac OS Rumors(http://www.macosrumors.com/):*
> The new 1.25GHz chips are, unfortunately, just upclocked PowerPC 7455 processors, not the PPC 7470s hoped for by the grapevine. This is a dangerous flaw, because the PPC 7455 cannot take advantage of DDR memory -- as on the Xserve, the new PowerMacs will be limited to 1.3GB/s actual processor bandwidth despite 2.7GB/s memory bandwidth on the two high-end models.



The latest specs don't justify the ex$pen$ive price tag.  I don't know about you, but I'm waiting until the 64-bit PowerPC PowerMacs are introduced.  These latest systems echo Apple's recent comments about the G4 "having legs".  These systems will get Apple by for a little while, until Motorola can get the shiny, black, hard, steel-toed boot (square brass pointy-edged buckle included).


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## Jason (Aug 14, 2002)

no zip? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





edit: ment to be a thumbs down


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## mccallister (Aug 14, 2002)

What most people don't know (my apple sales rep told me) is that internal zip drives aren't even an option with the new dual processor G4s.   Quote:  "3rd-party vendors will be offering internal zip drive kits."  

Come on Apple!   Your customers are mostly education and they do a lot of work at home.  Most of those professors don't have cd-burners, but do have zip drives....  I don't want a bunch of external drives with cables hanging all over the desk in my computer labs.  The "digital hub" is a nice idea, but tons of cables lying on a desk looks terrible.

Look at the inside of the current G4s.  There is a HUGE space for a second optical (CD/Superdrive/DVD/etc) if they just do a little bug of reengineering.  Not like the crap in the G4s they will ship. 

Move the mounting bracket for the power supply so that it isn't connected to the CDROM drive.  Get rid of the outward curve on the top of the front panel and make it flat to accomodate the 2nd optical drive (put a slot there of course).  Then you have room to add a 2nd optical drive and still have the internal zip drive.

Come on Apple, use some damned human engineering and customer input into your designs!  I bought a plextor 40x burner and had no place to put it other than where my existing dvd/cd-RW was.  There is a huge space above it unutilized.  Why do you want to waste that space by moving the internal speaker there?   

Damn, I wish I had Steve Jobs' home number so I could give him my input.   

GIVE US BACK OUR ZIPS!!!  The students need them.


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## uoba (Aug 14, 2002)

Buy a portable Zip, 1 USB lead and no power supply, + the fact they are er... portable.

To say the new G4's suck 'cause they don't accomodate a zip drive in an easy manner is just too strong IMO


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## mccallister (Aug 14, 2002)

You're missing my point uoba.  I don't want a bunch of external media and its cabling in my labs.  Besides the additional theft factor, it looks like hell and introduces one more factor into the reliability of the products.  The more connections you have, the more chances of problems you will see.  

Apple did not have to eliminate the 3 1/2" zip bay.  Minor modifications to the front of the case and moving one metal bracket would have allowed them to have two optical drives and still have the zip drive bay.


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## edX (Aug 14, 2002)

i agree with uoba. zip is really a second rate  format for almost everything these days. burning cd's are much cheaper than zip disk. and much more reliable. much easier to transport. it may take a few extra seconds to burn than to drag and drop but all the other advantages outweigh that. not to mention how i feel about supporting iomega in general as their products are &%*#&@!!!

profs need to move with the times just like everybody else. i know it's hard to teach the teacher new tricks, but this is one that is so easy that even a high school student could figure out.

maybe you would like to campaign for the return of a floppy drive too while you're at it.

that being said, i think the concept of allowing optimal expandability is a worthwhile point. on the other hand, there are plenty of ways to minimize the cord mess that was mentioned.


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## mccallister (Aug 14, 2002)

Plus the USB zips with no power supply cost more than the $89 internal kit that apple used to offer.


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## MDLarson (Aug 14, 2002)

I myself would _really_ appreciate 3 drive bays or more.  The fact is, people (at least me) still use zips and even floppies, and it would be GREAT if they were all centralized, not scattered around in a spider of USB cables.  Room for 4 hard drives?  Phffff I'm only on my second HD.


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## MDLarson (Aug 14, 2002)

I'm all for pushing new technology, but not as fast as Apple pushes (maybe).  Illustration:  Somebody just might have the nerve to give you an important file, and they gave it to you on a zip disk.  <gasp>!!!  What are you going to do?  Tell them to burn it?  Tell them to email it to you?  Maybe, maybe not.  Do-able, maybe not so do-able.

The point is, it's nice to be able to just get work done once in a while.  Zips aren't all that obseleted yet.


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## edX (Aug 14, 2002)

McAllister - i'll admit to the higher theft risk. you've got a good point for your setting. but i'll stick by my assertion that burning cd's would be a better way to go. 

but i'll reitterate that i think your point about making better expandability is one that apple should listen to. and they should sell lots of stuff to meet the desires of folks who want to fill everything up.


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## mccallister (Aug 14, 2002)

Your comment appears to sound that the professors are all using college-provided Macs at their homes.

Not true.  I am referring to the countless professors who have home computers (mac or otherwise) without CD-Burners.

Yes, I have a burner on my home machine and I use that instead of zips.  But most professors do not have burners on their home computers.  Contrary to popular myth they are not rich.  In fact, most of the faculty I've talked to with Macs in their homes are using old beige G3s or performas.

In fact, most of the college-owned machines purchased before last fall do NOT have burners.  So the professors are caught in a catch-22.  

Zips are WIDELY used in the educational arena and stating that "professors need to get with it" dramatically ignores the current educational institution environment.  

We are not a large "money tree" and do not have tons of $$ to provide computers for faculty at their homes.  

To get a good assessment of educational IT needs you have to look at the complete environment, not just what the college owns computer-wise.


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## Jason (Aug 14, 2002)

burning a cd isnt nearly as effecient... trust me ive tried, also many times when i send something to a printer i send it on a zip disk so its easier for them to deal with all the files and the links etc

zip disks are used well in the class rooms, and i use them professionally, holding 250mb isnt half bad for a disk that is fairly quick and easily re-writable...

to me and a few others apple made a mistake, just because you have no use for them and dont see a use for them doesnt make it a good idea or for that matter an obselete technology


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## edX (Aug 14, 2002)

no, i'm operating on the assumption that most lab materials are paid for thru grants. getting the appropriate equipment is normally part of the grant proposal. If you are talking about a general campus computer lab, rather than a research lab, then i see your point. of course i also think that the state of most universities' computer provisions are pathetic for whatever reason. Universities have money to spend. They are doing pretty good business these days. How they choose to spend it is often as misguided as the US govt. but that's a whole different discussion.


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## mccallister (Aug 14, 2002)

Staring with this last February's Apple orders I have been on my own private campaign to get all new macs equipped with CD burners.

I have also been lecturing ("laying down the line?") to incoming freshman that we will not be supporting floppy disks and that they need to buy zip disk/zip drives for their personal computers.   I told them that floppies are BAD and the labs will gradually be moving to zips only for removeable media.

Many of the projects they will be required to do will not fit onto a floppy.   In addition, everyday we get a student coming to our office in tears because their "important project" on a floppy is unreadable.

Zips are much more reliale than floppies.  I wish I could push the envelope to tell them to mandate their personal machines had CD burners, but for many students (and their parents) it is out out of their budget at this timel.

So, I am pushing zip drives at this time.   Perhaps next year prices will have dropped even farther that I will be preaching to them to have CD  burners.   But I have to reach the lowest common denominator at this point.

Having said that, our labs next month will have apple superdrives.  This is my incremental step into eradiicating external magnetic media on our campus.

I agree with what everyone says about getting everyone to get with the "bandwagon" and use CDR dics, I just don't think the students and faculty are at that financial point yet where we can ban those obsolete media.  I wish I could (less problems), but it isn't feasible at this time.


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## Jason (Aug 14, 2002)

cdrw's would be fine, but cd-r's would be a friggen waste of time and money to use as removable storage


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## mccallister (Aug 14, 2002)

We just received a grant to convert one of our labs to a full multi-media lab.  The "mac addicts" in charge of the project wanted to order the new iMacs to save a few bucks.

I laid down the law that IT will not support the system if they insist on iMacs.  I've seen the tech support problems with integrated computers at my last employer (Gateway systems) and with the iMacs we currently have.

Integrated computers are nothing but trouble when it comes to reliability, tech support and expansion.  I told the two professors that they should order G4s quicksilvers if they want reliable support from IT.  Yes, they're "cute", but they suck from a tech support standpoint.

Yes, they have backtracked and are now ordering G4 towers.  Tell all those bean counters out there that they need to consider tech supporrt costs in their formulas, not just the initial procurement costs.

NO IMACS/EMACS ON OUR CAMPUS!  If you are going to provide them equipment give them professional equipment and give them G4 towers.........


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## Urbansory (Aug 14, 2002)

CD or zips, make sure you have backups of each. In college i lost 2 major projects, one was on a zip, and backed up on another zip, 3 words, Click of Death. So that was that. Another project was on a CD, it was my fault I admit, lets just say i got some tape on the label, and I went to pull it off, and the foil came right along with it. I'm older, and i learned the hard way, now i buy high quality CD-RWs for class projects, which i keep multiple copies, from my hard drives to zips as well. Our school is phasing out the use of zips, and orbs were short lived.


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## mccallister (Aug 14, 2002)

What do you mean by "orbs"?   I've never heard that acronym/standard.


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## Jason (Aug 14, 2002)

click of death is an OLD problem that i have only seen happen on the original drives installed in beige powermac models PRE g3

i havent seen a click of death in years and i spent the last two years half running a mac lab full of G4's with zip100 drives... click of death is as old as... well something old!

orbs are slow 2gb(i think?) zip-esque drives... mostly worthless for everday file usage.. but good for big backups of older systems IMO


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## edX (Aug 14, 2002)

i don't even remember how many iomega zip drives i have owned over the years and all of them died with the clik of death and took a disc or 2 with them. it wasn't until i bought a vst firewire zip that i got one to last longer than the one year replacement warrenty that i learned to buy along with the iomega. i have gotten at least 4 new zip drives thru that process. paying $20 beats buying a new one any day. and who knows, if i still used my zip drive like i used to, maybe this one would have died by now too.

but i cannot imagine an iomega product that wouldn't eventually die with the click of death. maybe it has happened, but i don't trust one guy's word for it after my years of experience.

mcallister - sounds like you get the idea and i understand being the constraints of the real world hindrences you are talking about. this makes a much better argument to me than that profs can't afford a cd drive. i am sure they could all manage a cd reader which costs less than a zip drive these days. in fact, how can they even get new software without one? like it or not, poor profs have to keep up too. but the student angle i can appreciate, at least until the school provides the tools so that they wouldn't have to buy their own if they didn't want to.


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## xyz (Aug 14, 2002)

Although I have not experienced the extreme problems that Ed has, I cannot count the number of zip disks that have died on me, their final breath always being the "click of death".  I have an internal zip drive in my G4 Tower (Graphite), but I have only used it a few times the past year.  But when someone gives me a file on zip, I am glad I have it.


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## Jason (Aug 15, 2002)

like i said i have only seen click of death on older zip drives, not newer ones... im not saying it didnt happen


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## My Arrows Aim (Aug 15, 2002)

any chance to bash iomega and I'll gladly jump at it... I've seen click of death in at least a dozen macs, and as recently as a few months ago with a 6-month-old-retail-purchased-external-USB-zip.

their products still blow.

optical media or solid state ram is the future. 

no longer will we be afraid to set our media atop a TV, or too near a monitor - speaker magnets be damned, we have cheap, small-sized but large-capacity optical media!


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## uoba (Aug 15, 2002)

It's not so much the drives that die on me it's been the disks are just plain weak. CD for Me-me!


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## earthshine (Aug 15, 2002)

Quick note on the Orb drive: mine is still running (wow), it's not terribly slow with SCSI, and 2.2GB per disk isn't bad, even in these DV-soaked times. The only problem is that nobody gives a hoot about it anymore, so it is purely for backup and 'geewhiz, look at that weird thing' purposes.

And that's important to me.

eshine#eshine


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## earthshine (Aug 15, 2002)

The backsides of these PowerMacs have that 'we've been shot 50 times already, so we're ready for war' look to them.

Beyond that, this stuff is pretty cool. But then, I always say that. I mean, these are Macs. C'mon.

eshine


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## ksv (Aug 15, 2002)

Why discuss a topic which such an easy solution? Get an old graphite G4 
Or put a new G4 in an ATX case


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## Jason (Aug 15, 2002)

i will say im not too happy about the looks of the thing, but they did make some good improvements going to dual processor for the whole lineup and ddr ram and better video cards

the bottom line computer is quite a deal... and even a better deal is the 867mhz single processor g4 in the education store, i got my 800mhz g4 about 6 months ago... and now its been replaced by a dual g4 for the same price... im not too happy bout that!


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