# Get the Shots



## Satcomer (Sep 15, 2021)

I went and received the two shots for virus! Sure the first shot in Left Arm made it sore for day but that went away in one day! Then the next day, I wasn't sick but it felt like I had no drive to get out of bed and had almost zero strength but the day after I felt normal again! Then after getting the second shot I still had a day's worth of sore sop for the day after the shot just like for first time! However this time I started to Eat so much I was going to blow up. Ah everybody I prayed for on throne two days later!


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## Cheryl (Sep 16, 2021)

My vaccine shots were not as eventful. The second shot gave me a sore arm for a day or so, but that's it.


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## bbloke (Sep 26, 2021)

I'm really glad you had the vaccine, Satcomer.    It should help protect not just you but those around you, where we won't know everyone's circumstances (e.g. some could be vulnerable). So this helps not just the person getting vaccinated, but the wider community too.

People have different experiences, depending on what they received and possibly also when too (different countries are using different time spacings for the vaccines).  The Pfizer vaccine seems to be relatively fine for the first jab, but a bit rougher for the second.  The AstraZeneca vaccine seems to be the other way round.

When I had mine, I had a sore arm and seemed otherwise fine during the same day. The next day, I felt a little spaced out during the morning. It was almost exactly like jet lag from a long haul flight. In the afternoon, I felt like I really needed a nap and it was the weekend, so I went ahead. I ended up sleeping for a few hours and had a temperature, but the next day I was back to normal. 

It really was not bad at all and certainly nothing to worry about! I would also very gladly take that reaction to the vaccination if it means a level of protection from the real thing, so that any infection should be much less severe...


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## Satcomer (Sep 28, 2021)

All I know my own family is vaccinated now so we live in rural community!


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## Cheryl (Sep 28, 2021)

And soon I go in for my booster shot.


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## bbloke (Sep 29, 2021)

Hopefully living in a rural community will reduce the risks too, compared to living in a crowded city.  Look after yourself and your family. 

@Cheryl: Nice! We can hope for the day when having these coronavirus vaccines becomes a simple routine like having an annual flu vaccine or the like, keeping things at bay.

I remember some simulations from years ago about how diseases spread and how vaccines limit this.  Here's an animation about the spread of measles from about six years ago:









						Watch how the measles outbreak spreads when kids get vaccinated – and when they don't
					

If you take 10 communities and run a simulation, it’s easy to see why we need as many members of the ‘herd’ as possible to get vaccines – before it’s too late




					www.theguardian.com
				




Edit: Actually, it may well be a simulation and not just an animation.  There seems to be some randomness about where the incoming virus lands, which is realistic, so you may get slightly different results each time you run it, but the general trends will hold true!


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## Cheryl (Sep 29, 2021)

Speaking of flu shots, I just got mine today.


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## Doctor X (Sep 30, 2021)

Cheryl said:


> Speaking of flu shots, I just got mine today.


Did you get the Autisms?



What?


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## Cheryl (Sep 30, 2021)

Hahaha.  No and I didn't get magnetized either. I don't know where people get these crazy and stupid theories and I don't know how to snap people out of the funk they are putting themselves into.


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## bbloke (Sep 30, 2021)

One of the most ridiculous things I've seen was someone claiming on Twitter that it was highly suspicious that now the anti-vaccination people were the ones getting most ill, and suspecting they were being targeted by the powers that be...

Um... that's really not how this works...  Decline a vaccine, be more vulnerable to the virus.  It's really not difficult.


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## Doctor X (Sep 30, 2021)

Cheryl said:


> No and I didn't get magnetized either.


Maybe you got the wrong vaccine?

– J.D.


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## yomark (Oct 1, 2021)

Cheryl said:


> My vaccine shots were not as eventful. The second shot gave me a sore arm for a day or so, but that's it.


That's pretty much what MY experience was. Yours was Moderna, too, then? (if it's okay to ask. People have been kind of touchy about all this)


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## yomark (Oct 1, 2021)

Cheryl said:


> Hahaha.  No and I didn't get magnetized either. I don't know where people get these crazy and stupid theories and I don't know how to snap people out of the funk they are putting themselves into.


People are actually claiming that they're becoming magnetized by a flu shot?! I thought I'd heard everything!


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## yomark (Oct 1, 2021)

*Oh, my LORD, it’s TRUE!!!*

__
		https://flic.kr/p/2mwiaAh
_(You know, though….if it improves my cell reception, I might be into it!) _


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## DeltaMac (Oct 1, 2021)

IMHO - the worst part of being magnetized... I can never make it past the refrigerator!


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## yomark (Oct 1, 2021)

DeltaMac said:


> IMHO - the worst part of being magnetized... I can never make it past the refrigerator!


Yeah, but you can stick all those cool refrigerator magnets to yourself!!


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## Cheryl (Oct 1, 2021)

Chevyboy60013, You obviously do not follow the science or care about others around you. Now that you have vented, you can chill.


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## Cheryl (Oct 1, 2021)

Okay, You have shared your views. You realize that Covid 19 has effected more than just you. You could move to a city, county, or state that shares your views.


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## SGilbert (Oct 1, 2021)

Cheryl said:


> Okay, You have shared your views. You realize that Covid 19 has effected more than just you. You could move to a city, county, or state that shares your views.


Apparently, that would be San Francisco.  
I DO agree with his basic premise, however.  I have not been vaxed, and will not.  Do I care about people around me---hell yes. I mask up wherever I go, but I go wherever I please.  I am 75, a 2 times cancer survivor that has low immunity to everything, and am healthy as can be.  I did test, as did my wife, and we are both positive for the Chinese virus's antibodies; therefore, sometime in the last almost 2 years, we have both gotten it.  Neither of us have ever felt bad, nor are we aware we ever had it.  The vac's are a feel good stick in the arm, and a cash cow for the vax makers.


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## bbloke (Oct 3, 2021)

Cheryl said:


> Chevyboy60013, You obviously do not follow the science or care about others around you. Now that you have vented, you can chill.


Well said, Cheryl.

I also note they were newly registered and their only two posts were the very shouty ones in this thread.


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## pds (Oct 3, 2021)

SGilbert said:


> Apparently, that would be San Francisco.



As to “Chinese Virus” aren’t most flu and flu-type viruses from China? Hong Kong flu, bird flu, Asian flu, SARS. H1N1



SGilbert said:


> The vac's are a feel good stick in the arm, and a cash cow for the vax makers.


while that’s not untrue, that feel good stick does tamp down the hypertransmissability that threatened to overwhelm the sick care system, piling up body bags in refrigerated trucks on the streets of NY. Look at infection rates where people have taken the shot, vaccination plus prudent masking clearly works.

Glad the thing just brushed through you, I got it n March 2020 and was a little sick but aggressive in-home care remedies - isolation, steam baths with eucalyptus rub and chicken soup- and was better before I knew I had it. My wife was sick for a day and couldn’t taste or smell for 3 months.

i have an “essential” job (who knew) and have not been quarantined for more than the three days I isolated. I took the shots of my own accord to be able to travel to see the kids. It looked like there was going to be a requirement for flying, so…

it’s true, someone is making money but, someone is always making money.


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## bbloke (Oct 3, 2021)

I do know I have strong feelings on these matters, so I try to walk a tightrope.  Some of this is raw because a lot of people I know have been directly affected, plus I follow the scientific data (not politicians or social media) and it is quite clear what the facts are.  Even in my small circle: someone we work with died during the first wave, I've lost two family members during the pandemic, someone else I work with lost two family members too, and another has a partner who worked in the health service before the vaccine and is now unable to live unassisted, let alone continue working.  Others I know who work in the health sector have lost colleagues (before vaccination) and have been clearly traumatised by what they have witnessed amongst patients.  I can go on through a long list and so for me it is very real and uncomfortably close to home.  This is very definitely not like a cold or flu, it is very different.

The subject of freedom comes up a lot.  It's not simple, however.  I won't go into bigger philosophical and political debate about freedom and its boundaries here.  A short version is that it is not about the individual vs. Big Government or the like, it is where we all draw the line between "my freedoms" and "the freedoms of the person next to me."  For every member of the public who says "I have the right to socialise and go shopping" there is another member of the public who says "I have the right to protection of my health/my family's health" (e.g. clinically vulnerable themselves, caring for relatives, job-related, or whatever).  It could be argued a citizen's right to life (and/or good health) is the highest right.

To me, getting vaccinated is a big part of social responsibility and caring for the person next to you (see earlier simulation about how this works with other diseases too), and _it will ultimately be our way out of this mess_.  But only if enough people get the vaccine.  For the current pandemic, I think it is part of a package of getting vaccinated, wearing masks, social distancing, and limiting unnecessary exposure to others.


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## bbloke (Oct 3, 2021)

SGilbert said:


> I DO agree with his basic premise, however.  I have not been vaxed, and will not.  Do I care about people around me---hell yes. I mask up wherever I go, but I go wherever I please.


I have mixed feelings here, as you can imagine from the above.  You seem to have been lucky, but please be really careful and remember others might not have the same experience as you if they come into contact with the virus.  You can see from my post above that I know examples of people who have really suffered (all younger than you, and some less than half your age!).  Plus we can get a good picture by looking at the wider statistics.  It's still somewhat of a lottery and we're still learning about why some people shrug it off and some young, very fit, and healthy people get struck down.



SGilbert said:


> I am 75, a 2 times cancer survivor that has low immunity to everything, and am healthy as can be.


You've certainly had a very difficult time and I'm very sorry to hear that.  Having lost a partner to cancer when she was relatively young and having lost older family members to cancer too, I've seen how tough it is on the individual, both mentally and physically, and on those around them. I am, however, very glad you seem to be fine these days and I hope that continues, despite your reduced immune system.  Please take care of yourself.




SGilbert said:


> I did test, as did my wife, and we are both positive for the Chinese virus's antibodies; therefore, sometime in the last almost 2 years, we have both gotten it.  Neither of us have ever felt bad, nor are we aware we ever had it.


That's interesting. You may have had a weaker strain of the virus some time ago and been one of the lucky "asymptomatic" carriers, which may be protecting you to some degree now.  The strains around now, such as the Delta strain, seem to overwhelm immune systems more effectively and contribute to much higher viral loads.  The Delta variant (which emerged in India) also seems able to infect people who have previous had the virus or have been vaccinated, although those people may find their immune systems are much better primed.  The Alpha variant (which emerged in the UK) was about 1.5x more transmissible than the original, and then the Delta variant is about 1.5x more transmissible than the dreaded Alpha variant!  So it's not a surprise we're seeing the greater spread as the virus evolves, and it probably explains the awful scenes we saw in India, with families buying oxygen because hospitals ran out, cremations not being able to keep pace, and so on.  As I touched upon above, some people can be asymptomatic, some people have mild symptoms, while others may be hospitalised or even worse.  We don't fully understand the reasons why at this point, although I'm sure there will be various environmental and genetic factors (e.g. "how bad a dose" you got when exposed, your underlying health, etc.).

On a side note, let's please steer away from this "Chinese virus" stuff, which is the realm of dubious political statements.  It is not anything a credible scientist would say, and it is a subtle way of planting the seed to villainize another race or nation...  Which can be quite sinister, as we know from history.  Remember a lot of strains have developed elsewhere around the world now: the Alpha variant appeared within the UK and hit the US, Beta first observed in South Africa, Gamma first observed in Brazil, Delta first observed in India and now sweeping the world, Mu first observed in Colombia, and many more that simply don't make the news, to be honest.  Also, there's evidence now that the Spanish Flu after World War I was actually from the US, so sometimes the national naming of the time turns out to be misleading anyway...  Along these lines, perhaps we should call all Americans "Africans" because, regardless of millions of years of other heritage along the way, we'll choose to focus upon a current understanding that mankind's earliest origins were around the Great Rift Valley region of Africa.  



SGilbert said:


> The vac's are a feel good stick in the arm, and a cash cow for the vax makers.


Hmmm.  If by "a feel good stick in the arm" you're alleging that vaccines are placebos that have no real effect, I'm sorry but I don't know where you are getting this from at all.  For the benefit of anyone else reading this thread, I need to be clear that the many scientific studies around the world would say this is simply flat out wrong.

Remember, annual flu vaccines offer something like 40-60% effectiveness, off the top of my head, but people are happy to take those and yet question the coronavirus vaccines, which offer significantly higher effectiveness.  We're very fortunate with effectiveness of the current vaccines, and yet there can be a lot of inconsistency with regards to attitudes and uptake, it's weird.  But, it is true that no vaccine is perfect.  Ideally, they prevent infection too, but that is optimistic and the main job is really to prevent people getting very sick if they do get infected.

If you're saying pharmaceutical companies will make money out of this, I agree with you: they will, as they do from any treatment, I'm afraid.  Remember your previous cancer treatments will have been some of the very most expensive treatments around, and companies will have made a lot of money out of this (and it makes me uneasy that any company should profit from someone's misfortune).  But that does not mean that you having those treatments was not _absolutely the right thing for you to do_, despite any profit someone might make along the way.

It is worth pointing out here, though, that AstraZeneca has agreed to sell the vaccines at effectively cost price, instead of making huge profits.  That is why the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are about 10x the cost of the AstraZeneca vaccine.  It's also part of why we should be on guard against "vaccine nationalism" and spats between "interested parties" when they are advocating one vaccine over another.  And, no, I don't work for AstraZeneca or for Oxford.


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## bbloke (Oct 3, 2021)

pds said:


> As to “Chinese Virus” aren’t most flu and flu-type viruses from China? Hong Kong flu, bird flu, Asian flu, SARS. H1N1


I agree that SARS and Bird Flu were first observed in China, if I remember rightly.  China's also home to a staggering ~18% of the world's population (i.e. nearly 1 in 5 of us), so it might not be a big surprise when things are first observed there.  To be fair, though, "Hong Kong Flu" and "Asian Flu" (from the 1950s and 1960s) originated in Hong Kong when not yet part of China, although part of it again now.   

If you refer to H1N1, though, I believe that is associated with "Spanish Flu" (which killed up to 50 million around the world, and was one of the worst pandemics we've faced) and also "Swine Flu" (2009), both of which had origins in North America and swept the world.




pds said:


> Glad the thing just brushed through you, I got it n March 2020 and was a little sick but aggressive in-home care remedies - isolation, steam baths with eucalyptus rub and chicken soup- and was better before I knew I had it. My wife was sick for a day and couldn’t taste or smell for 3 months.


Ouch...  It's good to hear you both recovered quickly.  Sounds like you had it very early on and were trend-setters!  I've known a few people lose the sense of smell, but it seems to come back with time, fortunately.  It later became a symptom to look out for, setting it apart from other illnesses when trying to work out if some initial symptoms were those of a cold, flu, or hay fever. 

I'd also heard of situations where people with the coronavirus seemed to to be improving but then, when they thought they were about through it, suddenly took a turn for the worse around day 8 or so (it's the way one work colleague died).  I don't know the details of why things sometimes panned out that way, very likely to do with the progress of the disease and where it ends up by that point in time.  Some people found use of a pulse oximeter to measure blood oxygen levels can give you an early warning if things are going downhill and you might not yet know it.

Anyway, I'm just thankful you both got through it OK and the more drawn out effects have subsided!




pds said:


> i have an “essential” job (who knew) and have not been quarantined for more than the three days I isolated. I took the shots of my own accord to be able to travel to see the kids. It looked like there was going to be a requirement for flying, so…


Very good to hear!  Thank you.  




pds said:


> it’s true, someone is making money but, someone is always making money.


Sadly true...  I understand pharmaceutical companies running like any other business and making profits, but, even so, something does not sit well about any aspect of health care being run for profit.


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## pds (Oct 6, 2021)

While reading bbloke I was strongly reminded of Asimov’s treatise on freedom and responsibility “I Robot”. Not that travesty of a movie, the book is a delightful look at the ethical and moral underpinnings of civilzation. It was the three basic laws that allowed for the robot to develop and maintain basic freedom and functionality. I have always seen it as a metaphor for human development. 

A good person:
1 does no harm
2 cooperates unless doing so cause harm (disobeys evil orders) 
3 seeks prosperity unless it harms others or breaks rule 2.

How then do we allow for the disruption necessary for us to meet the challenges of modern complexity? Asimovs suggestion is a 0th law recognizing that sometimes you have to choose “the greater good”. The 0th law inserts humanity above human, but for one already determined to be a good person.

Read the book, it’s a short one but very engaging. You can read it while voluntarily waiting to follow the OP’s suggestion to “get the stick”


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## Satcomer (Oct 7, 2021)

Um PDS I said shots.


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## bbloke (Oct 8, 2021)

@pds Interesting comparison.  I think I began reading the book when I was very young, but it was too old for me and I didn't get that far.  Perhaps I should revisit it when I get some time.  It sounds as though it was also commenting on human morality, in parallel.

One thing for me is how we think about the individual and how we think of the wider community.  It can be tempting to picture the brave individual standing up to authoritarian powers, such as a government dictatorship.  Or we can think of the Apple ad from 1984, and we think of people in gray shuffling about unquestioningly like zombies, while a brave, colourful individual takes a stand.  Those extremes make for good films, but real life is more nuanced than that.

In reality, doing something to help the community doesn't necessarily equate to mindlessly following a shuffling herd.  It can mean choosing a course of action that prioritizes your vulnerable or elderly neighbor, rather than your own needs or convenience.


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## pds (Oct 8, 2021)

Satcomer said:


> Um PDS I said shots.


Oops


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## Doctor X (Oct 13, 2021)

> In this case-control study, being unvaccinated was associated with 2.34 times the odds of reinfection compared with being fully vaccinated.



https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7032e1.htm

– J.D.


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## Satcomer (Nov 17, 2021)

Hey Want to say something! I have this lady neighbor that for extra cash mows the lawn of several places and hotel and her husband is diesel repair place and brought the virus into their home! they both became sick but she pulled out in 3 days! Her husband took almost a week though! she was 40 when she became sick! She did stay the two weeks indoors because she had just stocked on food had she like to can things especially in Fall! 

So I come to conclusion sense she worked outdoors she high level of vitamin D in her system! So I tend to think that if you have a high amount of vitamin D in your system or work outdoors during the Summer might help ones combat this virus!


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## Cheryl (Nov 17, 2021)

Satcomer said:


> So I come to conclusion sense she worked outdoors she high level of vitamin D in her system! So I tend to think that if you have a high amount of vitamin D in your system or work outdoors during the Summer might help ones combat this virus!



Just because one person that you know of was able to combat the virus, does not mean that's the way to fight it off. There have many plenty of people who were very healthy, worked outdoors, and still died from covid. One example does not make it science or even a good trial for science. 

Plus, there are those who survived a bout of covid, but still have lingering symptoms many months later. That's not something I would want to live with.


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## bbloke (Nov 17, 2021)

I would strongly agree with what Cheryl wrote.  While vitamin D is important for the immune system and a lack of it can cause problems, there have been studies during the pandemic which show dosing up on vitamin D does not help.  So, unfortunately, it does not look like vitamin D is the issue in what you've seen.  There could be all sorts of finer details which explain why the woman and her husband had different experiences, such as viral load, health conditions (long term or temporary), genetic differences, environmental factors, and more.

In science, it is often said that anecdotal evidence is not the same as data.  Casual observations and limited numbers of examples are very, very different from controlled, systematic studies of something, involving large numbers of experiments or data.  As an example, a clinical trial of a new drug requires multiple stages and thousands of participants, representing different backgrounds; they don't just have one go, test a drug on one random person, and make a decision based upon that.  

It is definitely interesting to consider people's experiences around us, but when it comes to drawing conclusions about how to deal with a global pandemic, it is best to look at what the scientists around the world have been researching and finding.


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## Doctor X (Nov 18, 2021)

Save there is no evidence to support the efficacy of Vitamin D.

It is a "fun" theory that is current.

Get the vaccine.

Wash your hands.

– J.D.


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## Satcomer (Dec 8, 2021)

There has been news the virus O is no worse than the common Flu! Vaccinated people will be out 3-4 days and not vaccinated the symptoms will be worse 5 to 7 days! So jetting the shots will help you! I learned this from Doctor on YouTube here:


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## SGilbert (Dec 8, 2021)

WELL...The internet, and YouTube is the definitive answer to all questions. 
"It must be true, I saw it on the internet".


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## Doctor X (Dec 8, 2021)

JET FUEL CANNTH SMELT STEAL!!1!!!ELEVENTY!! [! – Ed.]







What?

– J.D.


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## Cheryl (Dec 8, 2021)

I have come to find out that those who say it is no worse than the flu has never experienced getting Covid19, nor do they know of anyone who has suffered from it.  
First, there is not sufficient data/information about the latest variant to make any kind of statement about it. 
Second, the Delta variant is still around and making its presence known. 
Third, just get the shot !


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## bbloke (Dec 8, 2021)

Well said, Cheryl.  

We know a lot more about SARS-CoV-2 and its effects than we used to in early 2020, but we still have plenty to learn.  Some people recover quickly, while others have a really terrible time.  

With the Omicron variant, it really is too early to tell how severe it will be and we need to wait a few weeks.  The spread seems to be very rapid, though, which may mean it is out-competing the Delta variant, which was already a lot more transmissible...     So do get the vaccine and any boosters offered!

As for frequent comparisons with the flu in social media, I'm reminded of a graph that I posted in another thread a while back:


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## pds (Dec 15, 2021)

Satcomer said:


> There has been news the virus O is no worse than the common Flu! Vaccinated people will be out 3-4 days and not vaccinated the symptoms will be worse 5 to 7 days! So jetting the shots will help you! I learned this from Doctor on YouTube here:


Love the masked dog and the (generic) vitamin D plug


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## ScottW (Dec 15, 2021)

I'm pretty sure I just had Omicron. It matches the symptoms exactly. Extreme fatigue, and lasted about 2.5 days, after 3 days, the only thing that remains is some sinus crud.


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## Cheryl (Dec 15, 2021)

Are you sure it isn't just a plain old cold? Were you in contact with someone who traveled internationally? Please don't confuse Covid with the cold virus that occurs because of the strange weather patterns we have been experiencing. My sinuses have been acting up, but that's it. And I do occasionally get tired/fatigued but that's because I'm old (and doing projects that should be left to younger whipper snappers). 

If you suspect you have covid, you need to get tested !!!  And isolate yourself from everyone else. 

symptoms: 

Fever or chills
Cough
Shortness of break or difficulty breathing
Fatigue
Muscle or body aches
Headache
Sore throat
Congestion or runny nose
New loss of taste or smell
Nausea, vomiting, or diarrhea
Omicron variant:  dry coughs, fever, night sweats, a lot of body pains (so far)


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## Doctor X (Dec 15, 2021)

Or you had . . . the flu!

Or a daemon possession.

– J.D.


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## Doctor X (Dec 15, 2021)

Or *Cheryl* beats me to it. 

– J.D.


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## Satcomer (Dec 15, 2021)

ScottW said:


> I'm pretty sure I just had Omicron. It matches the symptoms exactly. Extreme fatigue, and lasted about 2.5 days, after 3 days, the only thing that remains is some sinus crud.



I glad you recovered! So was it worst or better than Flu you had in past?


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## Satcomer (Mar 28, 2022)

To get on the ball my regional reporter friend told me the Keuka Lake Wine Trail sense the mandate has lifted in county for Wine lovers!


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## Satcomer (Oct 1, 2022)

New wrinkle inn shots saga:

WHO Chief Admits .....!


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## SGilbert (Oct 1, 2022)

Wife & I never got the shots, never will. Never got the Chinese virus! Many friends & relatives had them and still got sick! 
Then there's this!  








						Fauci and wife's net worth increased by $5M during the pandemic, analysis finds
					

Dr. Anthony Fauci and his wife, Christine Grady, experienced millions in increased net worth as many Americans struggled during the pandemic, according to a watchdog group.




					www.foxnews.com


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## Cheryl (Oct 1, 2022)

Conspiracy theories are really stupid. No one who I know got sick from the covid vaccines.
(and don't believe anything you see on *ox)


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## bbloke (Oct 1, 2022)

Seatbelts also won't prevent 100% of injuries and deaths in automotive accidents.  But that clearly doesn't mean "they don't work."  Do you choose not to use them too, for consistency?

For all the anecdotal stories of people with vaccines still being infected (and, yes, that is actually expected), I can equally tell stories of fit, young, and healthy people I knew who were infected before the vaccines arrived and, unfortunately, died.  I'm not seeing much of that anymore, thankfully.  But it is better not to deal with anecdote; proper data gives a much better picture.

Have a look at these graphs for the US and UK, as two examples.  The coronavirus has mutated to become more and more transmissible (e.g. Delta and Omicron variants); current strains spread far faster than the original one.  Remember the disastrous effects the Delta strain had upon India, with oxygen supplies running out and difficulties trying to cremate the dead fast enough?  Despite the big increases in the likelihood of infecting people, deaths actually began to decrease significantly from around the time that vaccination was ramping up.  Hmmmm, could be a link.... ?


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## SGilbert (Oct 1, 2022)

Cheryl said:


> Conspiracy theories are really stupid. No one who I know got sick from the covid vaccines.
> (and don't believe anything you see on *ox)


I can give you, privately of course, names and phone #'s to verify if you doubt me.


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## SGilbert (Oct 1, 2022)

bbloke said:


> Seatbelts also won't prevent 100% of injuries and deaths in automotive accidents.  But that clearly doesn't mean "they don't work."  Do you choose not to use them too, for consistency?


As a matter of fact, I do choose not to; I use a cheater clip.  So, yes, I am consistent!


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## Cheryl (Oct 1, 2022)

SGilbert said:


> if you doubt me.


I do not doubt you that people you know got sick, I just think your number is a lot smaller than those hundred thousand (if not more) that did not get sick. 
Keep in mind those vaccines do not have any live cultures of the virus.


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## SGilbert (Oct 1, 2022)

Cheryl said:


> I do not doubt you that people you know got sick, I just think your number is a lot smaller than those hundred thousand (if not more) that did not get sick.
> Keep in mind those vaccines do not have any live cultures of the virus.


  Yes, it is a lot smaller than "those hundred thousand". I likely don't even know a thousand people, let alone hundred thousand!  I NEVER even mentioned hundred thousand.


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## Cheryl (Oct 1, 2022)

SGilbert said:


> I NEVER even mentioned hundred thousand.



No, you didn't. I did.


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## bbloke (Oct 2, 2022)

SGilbert said:


> As a matter of fact, I do choose not to; I use a cheater clip.  So, yes, I am consistent!


I've not heard of cheater clips.  I presume they are something to fit into the seatbelt to stop any alarms going off so you can drive without a belt (?).  If so... seriously... *why* on earth would anyone do that?    Are they really considered that terrible to use?

No comment on the data, though?  

Or, with reference to it just being flu (which it clearly isn't), you've probably seen this graph I showed a while back.  It compares the coronavirus to influenza (flu) deaths in the same year:


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## SGilbert (Oct 2, 2022)

It's just the male end of a seatbelt without the strap.

Is it dangerous, sure. Is riding a bike or motorcycle without a helmet dangerous? Absolutely!
It's about our freedoms. 
Am I, or the motorcycle riders endangering others? No.

I smoked for over 50 years. Still would have if not for cancer, NOT lung cancer, but a lymphoma in my stomach, and chemo put me in the hospital for 8 days.  Did I endanger others? Wife of 44 years has no cancer nor do the 3 sons now in late 30's & early 40's.

Get off my lawn.


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## bbloke (Oct 2, 2022)

It sounds like a “cheater clip” is what I presumed.  Using seatbelts seems a trivial thing to do to protect yourself.  It’s really not a big inconvenience, but OK.

Risks with not wearing a seatbelt or helmet, sure, I agree: it mainly affects the user/non-user.  Legality is another matter, but I’ll keep this brief. 

You emphasized not having lung cancer, but I presume you already know smoking significantly increases risks of stomach cancers too?  You asked whether you endangered your family.  OK, if you're really going there, I’ll give you a very honest answer…  If you smoked outside and generally away from them, they my inclination would be to say you didn’t.  If you smoked around them and indoors over many years, then I’d say yes, you did.  Very thankfully, they have been fine to date.  But this is once again back to anecdote vs. data.  

I sometimes wonder how much public understanding (and potential for manipulation) comes down to the ability to follow and interpret data.  From https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsos.201199:


> Across all countries surveyed, we find that higher trust in scientists and having higher numeracy skills were associated with lower susceptibility to coronavirus-related misinformation.



For me, the debate about masks and vaccines is about not being selfish and about doing the right thing to protect each other (especially those who are medically vulnerable), based on scientific findings.  I find it hard to understand when people don't care about the person next to them.  In the US, don't children have to be vaccinated (against other things) in order to attend school and day care?  If so, why aren't the same people objecting vehemently to that too?

I will always choose facts and scientific data over conspiracy theories and propaganda.


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## Cheryl (Oct 2, 2022)

> If so, why aren't the same people objecting vehemently to that too?



There are groups that do protest to the childhood vaccines * and now the results have come to fruition - measles, etc cases have appeared and climbing. But these groups are not as many as those against the covid vaccine. 

* footnote: the debunked theory that those vaccines caused autism...but these groups don't trust the scientist and the data...hence an agreement to your statement above.


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## bbloke (Oct 2, 2022)

Ah yes, we have anti-vaxxers for children too.  With sadly very predictable results..... Sigh.   

It does seem to be the coronavirus vaccines that get the most opposition and the most conspiracy theories these days.


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## bbloke (Oct 2, 2022)

Ian M. Mackay, a virologist, also made a really nice graphic that summarizes dealing with pandemics in general.


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## SGilbert (Oct 2, 2022)

Final note before we really should end this before the guns get out!

Vaccines are great, they work! Polio, measles, chicken pox, etc.  Chinese virus---not so much.
It is NOT a preventative. Vax'd people still get it; just not as bad.  It CAN cause very bad conditions; some causing death.
It also needs boosters, then boosters upon boosters!  
NOT I (said the Little red hen   )


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## Cheryl (Oct 2, 2022)

> Vax'd people still get it; just not as bad. It CAN cause very bad conditions; some causing death.
> It also needs boosters, then boosters upon boosters!



Yes, the vaccine did prevent deaths from the virus. I, personally, am not aware of the very bad conditions you refer to that the vaccine caused. But you must keep in mind that the corona virus vaccine was fast tracked (which is one reason many people refuse it) and the reason was because of so many deaths world wide before it was conceived. There was a quick need so that people wouldn't take horse worm meds, etc. (and they still did take it with dire consequences).  

And the boosters are an answer to the variant of the virus. Many of our present childhood vaccines still need boosters. 

No guns, please. We are just discussing and sharing our knowledge.


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## SGilbert (Oct 2, 2022)

Cheryl.
"Rare Side Effects of COVID Vaccines

Myocarditis and the COVID-19 Vaccines

Since April 2021, some people have developed myocarditis (inflammation of the heart muscle) and pericarditis (inflammation of the lining outside the heart) after receiving the Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna coronavirus vaccines in the United States, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). The problem occurs more often in adolescents (teens) and young adults, and in males.

Considering the hundreds of millions of COVID-19 vaccine doses that have been administered, these reports are very rare. The vast majority of myocarditis or pericarditis cases are mild and resolve quickly. Myocarditis is more likely to occur as a result of COVID-19 infection than as a side effect of the vaccines.

Seek medical attention right away if, within a few days of receiving the second injection of an mRNA COVID-19 vaccination (Pfizer-BioNTech, Moderna), you or your child experience:

Chest pain
Shortness of breath
Feelings of having a fast-beating, fluttering or pounding heartbeat
COVID can cause heart problems, too

Having COVID-19 can also cause heart problems. One study published by the CDC reports that from March 2020 to January 2021, patients with COVID-19 had nearly 16 times the risk for myocarditis compared with patients who did not have COVID-19.

Blood Clots (TTS) and the Johnson & Johnson Vaccine

Due to potential blood clots following administration of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine, the CDC updated its recommendations in December 2021. The CDC noted that the two mRNA vaccines, from Pfizer and Moderna, are preferred over the Johnson & Johnson vaccine, which remains available for those who prefer it and for use in certain circumstances.

Women ages 30-49 years, especially, should be aware of the increased risk of this rare adverse event and should know that other COVID-19 vaccines are available.

If you receive a J&J vaccine, for three weeks, you should watch for possible symptoms of TTS and get medical help immediately if you have any of these symptoms:

Severe or persistent headaches or blurred vision
Shortness of breath
Chest pain
Leg swelling
Persistent abdominal pain
Easy bruising or tiny blood spots under the skin near the injection site
Is there risk of allergic reaction from COVID-19 vaccine?

According to the CDC, anyone who has a known severe allergy (e.g., anaphylaxis) to any of the vaccine ingredients should not receive that vaccine.

The CDC says people with allergies to certain foods, insects, latex and other common allergens can safely receive the COVID-19 vaccine. Those with a history of severe allergic reaction (anaphylaxis) to injectables or other vaccines should discuss the vaccination with their doctor, who can evaluate and assess their risk."

I really dod not mean real guns--just figuratively!  If you're OK with keeping this reparte' going, I'll counter whatever claims are made.


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## Cheryl (Oct 2, 2022)

Did you know that myocarditis and/or pericarditis is a side effect to many drugs? Just listen to the drug ads on the television (if you are in the US).  and as the article you quote myocarditis appears to be a side effect of the covid virus and not the vaccine.

The blood clots were known before the J&J vaccine was released, but I don't know why it was approved anyway.

Wondering out loud: Have the vaccines produced for other countries (that didn't buy  Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna) have the same warnings of side effects?


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## bbloke (Oct 2, 2022)

Believe it or not, SGilbert, there are elements where I agree with you!   

Most vaccines do work very well.  Like Cheryl says, remember the coronavirus vaccines were rolled out very quickly and I think they have worked remarkably well!  (See earlier data and more if you want it...)  We're in a *very different* situation now compared to 2020, as a result.

The current vaccines don't totally prevent infection, no, but they hugely reduce your chances of a very bad outcome if infected, and that is good enough for me.  If they reduce viral loads of infected people, they may reduce the speed of the spread too (but don't stop it, no).  

Boosters: yup, we need boosters.  It evolves quickly.  "Coronavirus" is an umbrella term for a type of virus structure, and another type of coronavirus is the common cold, which is notoriously difficult to find a cure for (not least because of mutations)!  When travelling for work, I've had to have vaccinations for other things... and, yes, boosters.  And I read through the vaccination card to see how long each vaccination lasts; most certainly are not for life, put it that way.  So this virus is not the only one needing regular boosters.

Finally, yes, there are potential side effects.  Thankfully, they are rare, but they can happen.  The same for any medication or vaccine, *this is not unique*.  Let's go back to data; to cold, hard facts and not scare stories.  As you've brought up side effects and I remember the one that caused panic was the possibility of blood clots, please can you tell us the risk of blood clots due to:

1) AstraZeneca vaccine
2) Pfizer vaccine
3) Birth control pills
4) Smoking
5) Actual infection by the coronavirus ("COVID")

It's a useful comparison.  It nails down some facts and the relative risks of each...  I hope you'll look these up and come back to us.


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