# Attention Mac Pirates...



## serpicolugnut (Jul 7, 2003)

For those who think that pirating an application isn't stealing and doesn't hurt the platform, look no further than the recent killing of Premiere for the Mac by Adobe. Sure, FCP is a better product - but it only got that way by having a healthy competitor in Adobe Premiere.

Now, Mac users are left with just Final Cut Pro. Do you really believe Apple will feel just as compelled to be innovative with a user base that has no other options? I would like to think so, but I'm not quite that naive.

And for those who keep saying "Who cares? So long as Adobe keeps making Photoshop for the Mac, I'm good", listen to this statement from the Premiere team leader...



> David Trescot, senior director of Adobe's digital video products group, said the new edition of Premiere is a complete rewrite of the application and it didn't make financial sense to support the Mac anymore.
> 
> "We were rewriting Premiere from scratch, and it would have taken a lot of work to have cross-platform support," Trescot said.



It is estimated that Mac Premiere sales were between 10-20% of the total sales of the product. The last numbers I had seen for Adobes total sales breakdown by platform were 73% Wintel, 27% Mac. Let's say that figure drops to 19% Mac. Still think it's a stretch for Adobe to kill off some of it's other key Mac applications (Illustrator, Photoshop, InDesign, After Effects, etc.)

Consider this next time you fire up that pirated copy of Illustrator and Photoshop, and how the next releases of these applications might be the last for the Mac if sales figures don't improve.

I'm not trying to be a chicken little and claim the sky is falling, but there is cause for concern.

BTW - I predict that Adobe will next announce that Live Motion 3 will be PC only.


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## lnoelstorr (Jul 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by serpicolugnut _
> *Now, Mac users are left with just Final Cut Pro. Do you really believe Apple will feel just as compelled to be innovative with a user base that has no other options? I would like to think so, but I'm not quite that naive.*



I think Apple are now actually more likely to try and make FCP better than Premier (and infact any other similar software available on the PC).   With Premier and FPC there were two reasons to consider the Mac platform.  Now that FCP is the only option, Apple had better try and make it damn tempting so as to get people across to the Apple platform.


With regadrs to piracy - I'm not really sure why you feel piracy is to blame for this.  Why blame the pirates?  Adobe didn't seem to mention it as a problem.  Is piracy more of a problem on the Mac than the PC?

I'm not saying piracy isn't a problem, I'm very anti-piracy, I just doubt it was the major cause for this and you don't seem to have presented any evidence to suggest that it is.


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## serpicolugnut (Jul 7, 2003)

> With regadrs to piracy - I'm not really sure why you feel piracy is to blame for this. Why blame the pirates? Adobe didn't seem to mention it as a problem. Is piracy more of a problem on the Mac than the PC?



I should probably clarify my remarks...

I'm not saying that piracy was a factor in the decision to drop Premiere, mostly because since Apple has the better product, more people probably pirate it than Premiere on the Mac...

However, Photoshop is a heavily pirated Mac application. Many of these pirates actually make money with it, and are not the garden variety students who wouldn't end up paying for the software anyway (not that it makes them any less guilty). Since the Mac market is smaller, piracy's impact is felt much stronger here than in Windows land, where piracy is that much worse.

It's no longer a forgone conclusion that Adobe will release a Mac version of it's software. If sales figures don't justify it, and the engineering effort would be simplified by dropping the Mac, they will choose that road now, if it makes financial sense for them to do so...

So, the point I'm making is - How long will it be before disappointing Mac sales (affected by attrition and piracy) causes Adobe to drop Mac support for it's major Mac apps (PS, AI, ID, GL, AE)? Just the possibility of losing any of these apps is a serious concern for Mac users, and should be taken seriously.


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## hulkaros (Jul 7, 2003)

I think the problem is not piracy... The problem is Adobe! It was easier for them instead of improve their crap apps on Mac where they have a worthy opponent in the face of Apple, to go more and more Windows oriented because they actually have no competition there...

Also, I think that the software piracy is actually more of Wintel platform based than anything else out there... 

Now, if only Apple would bring FCP and others to Windows...  

Seriously though, I hope that with the G5, Adobe will reconsider their software strategy towards the Mac platform because I think that all those pro-Wintel apps or even worst only-Wintel apps, were created when Adobe felt that the G3/G4 based Apple had no future... Or at least a tiny one...


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## cfleck (Jul 7, 2003)

if you want another side to the story, osnews has a discussion going on about it. 

http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=3976

 try not to get caught up in the mac vs windows discussions though.  there are a few intelligent thoughts there if you can avoid the crap.


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## toast (Jul 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by serpicolugnut _
> *Photoshop is a heavily pirated Mac application. Many of these pirates actually make money with it.*



I don't, so I'll carry on reading something else. *flies away*


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## hulkaros (Jul 7, 2003)

I think there is no reason to overreact! Adobe is with Apple for now! Them not supporting the Mac platform at the maximum is a big problem but we cannot do anything! Unless each one of us (the lonely  Mac user) can make 5 of our family/friends members to buy a Mac and an Adobe app! That way, all of a sudden the Apple & Adobe users will become more than 50 millions, easily


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## serpicolugnut (Jul 7, 2003)

> I think there is no reason to overreact! Adobe is with Apple for now! Them not supporting the Mac platform at the maximum is a big problem but we cannot do anything! Unless each one of us (the lonely  Mac user) can make 5 of our family/friends member to buy a new Mac and 1 Adobe app!



Well, if you don't know anybody who's pirating Adobe (or anyone else's) software, there isn't much you can do. But if you do, give them a hard time about it and guilt them in to getting legal. If you've been using a pirated copy, get legal. 

Most of the time you can buy a previous version off of eBay quite cheaply. Although Adobe isn't happy about this practice, with a simple form, you can transfer ownership of the application and then upgrade to the newest version for half of what the new version costs. It's perfectly legal and gets you legal for less.


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## ApeintheShell (Jul 7, 2003)

Oh come on, while i do not advocate piracy, adobe photoshop was pirated on the mac before it was ever made on the pc. When Adobe Photoshop 3 was released people traded it back and forth.

While marketshare for the Apple platform is not sky high I think it was foolish to pull the plug on premiere. Sales are important to a company but obviously Adobe could of rewritten premiere when the rest of Mac OS X applications were being released. Heck, they could have rewritten Photoshop and Illustrator. 

Did they consider the G5 release?


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## tamma (Jul 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by serpicolugnut _
> *For those who think that pirating an application isn't stealing and doesn't hurt the platform, look no further than the recent killing of Premiere for the Mac by Adobe. Sure, FCP is a better product - but it only got that way by having a healthy competitor in Adobe Premiere.
> 
> Now, Mac users are left with just Final Cut Pro. Do you really believe Apple will feel just as compelled to be innovative with a user base that has no other options? I would like to think so, but I'm not quite that naive.*



Not to be Rude But Premiere Sucked. It was a horrible application and I do not know of an editor (professional editor) who was using it. It was buggy clunky and slow. The fact that Adobe is not keeping it on the Mac platform has little to do with piracy but more to do with the fact that FCP and I movie are better products.

Now as for your statement about FCP being the only editing program for the Mac I am sorry to inform you but you are very wrong. Avid has released Express DV. It is about $500 more than FCP but it is an extremely great product.

 I know a few that have switched from FCP to Avid. I personally do not see the need. But I will say this avid made one great product and it works very well. I even have used it for a few projects. I still like FCP better.

I think your worries have a lot of merit but not when it comes to premiere. If Adobe was killing After Effects then I would be the first one to be agreeing with you.


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## serpicolugnut (Jul 7, 2003)

> Not to be Rude But Premiere Sucked. It was a horrible application and I do not know of an editor (professional editor) who was using it.



Premiere has seen better days, but in 1998, it was the only sub-$1000 game in town (except for Strata, then Avid Video Pro). While not the most elegant program, it worked quite well. I completed several CD-ROM and Multimedia kiosk projects in it, and it was more than adequate.

Flash forward to 2003. Premiere 6.5 (the last Mac version), while not a stellar product, did force Apple to further innovate Final Cut Pro. Final Cut Pro's new LiveType feature is a direct response to Premieres Title Designer. 



> Now as for your statement about FCP being the only editing program for the Mac I am sorry to inform you but you are very wrong. Avid has released Express DV. It is about $500 more than FCP but it is an extremely great product.



I should have qualified that statement with the sub-$1000 category. Express DV is a nice product, but it's price tag puts it out of the Premiere/FCP war. 



> I think your worries have a lot of merit but not when it comes to premiere. If Adobe was killing After Effects then I would be the first one to be agreeing with you.



Well chew on this: Final Cut Pro has some compositing features that put it in competition with After Effects. Lets say Apple develops this further, or even better, makes a low cost version of Shake. Do you think Adobe will keep After Effects around for the Mac then?


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## Randman (Jul 7, 2003)

> think that the software piracy is actually more of Wintel platform based than anything else out there


 Absolutely. And I agreed with the comments about Premiere sucking.
   Adobe gets get a big chunk of $$$ from design/publishing businesses that run the gamut of Adobe products off of Mac platforms. They'll not shoot that golden goose. Besides, Adobe is thinking of making its next registration online

http://www.crn.com/sections/BreakingNews/dailyarchives.asp?ArticleID=43061

And an update to After Effects

http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/030707/65011_1.html


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## mindbend (Jul 7, 2003)

I am going to have to respectfully and completely disagree with this notion.

I do not believe that Pirating had anything to do with the Premiere/FCP situation. That is the point of this thread, so that's the premise I'm working from.

Here is why Premiere is Windows only...FCP 1.0 was a vastly superior app and Mac-only. All versions of Premiere up to 6.0 were still inferior even to FCP 1.0. The migration of Premiere users on the Mac platform to FCP was huge and complete. There are virtually no professional users of Premiere on the Mac. If you can find one, let me know.

To develop Premiere for the Mac would have been a total waste of time and money for Adobe. As we all know, Mac users are violently loyal, and with Apple developing FCP, and developing it very well, there is virtually no hope for any other Mac video editing app in that price range.

Pirating had nothing to do with it.

As for other apps from Adobe. As long as they will sell on the Mac, they will be developed. Livemotion will indeed be Mac-ready. I have no proof of this, but I am simply making an educated guess. The only other Flash development tool is Flash itself. They are two very different programs (we use both here at Mindbend). Livemotion 3 would sell well on the Mac platform and thusly will be developed for it.

As for Dave Trescot's comment, that was for a specific app, which as I stated above, would have been profitless on the Mac. Photoshop will be very profitable on the Mac for a long time, as will After Effects, Livemotion, Indesign and so on. Encore would not be profitable given DVD Studio Pro and iDVD. 

I am not worried at all.

However, on the piracy thing, it is definitely worth repeating that, in general, we as Mac users really owe it to the developers to actually pay for the software. Serp's point is correct that our piracy REALLY hurts our future in ways beyond what the Wintel piracy might do.

As for FCP on Windows. Forget it. It will never happen. FCP is a big reason to buy a Mac, and as we all know, Apple is a hardware company first and foremost. An iPod is not enough reason to buy a Mac, FCP is.


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## adambyte (Jul 7, 2003)

Lately, I had the chance to go to a series of Seminars called Video-Maker. It seems the semi-pro and even professional filmakers are now using Final Cut Pro to edit their movies and shows. And, with a new free plug-in, Final Cut Pro will have the ability to export it's files to XML, which is quickly becoming the standard for other companies project and video files. Soon, you'll be able to edit on FCP on your Mac, do a little export, and maybe do your final render or use compositing on a PC or whatever. The XML standard can go back and forth between all new video apps.

Apple is doing great things with FCP. Adobe is throwing in the towel, and giving up, rather than innovating and updating.


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## tamma (Jul 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by serpicolugnut _
> *Premiere has seen better days, but in 1998, it was the only sub-$1000 game in town (except for Strata, then Avid Video Pro). While not the most elegant program, it worked quite well. I completed several CD-ROM and Multimedia kiosk projects in it, and it was more than adequate.*



For it's time in 1998 yes it was a great product.



> *Flash forward to 2003. Premiere 6.5 (the last Mac version), while not a stellar product, did force Apple to further innovate Final Cut Pro. Final Cut Pro's new LiveType feature is a direct response to Premieres Title Designer.*



Here i would disagree with you. i think that it came more from the gripes of all the FCP customers that were sick and tired of using other apps for there titling like photoshop and flash. But i do agree that Premieres Title Designer was great.




> *I should have qualified that statement with the sub-$1000 category. Express DV is a nice product, but it's price tag puts it out of the Premiere/FCP war.*



No argument there




> *Well chew on this: Final Cut Pro has some compositing features that put it in competition with After Effects. Lets say Apple develops this further, or even better, makes a low cost version of Shake. Do you think Adobe will keep After Effects around for the Mac then? *



Well you do have some valid points but before i question. Have you ever used Shake??? I did once. All i can say is what a pain in the ass. 

THere is no way IMHO that Shake can win out over After Effects. AE is entrenched in the world of SFX and post production. it would be like an other program beating out Photoshop. It would be next to impossible.  if at all.

I know for me i passed up Shake for AE. and i will continue to do so.


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## stizz (Jul 7, 2003)

serpicolugnut,
when you are done preaching your holier than thou rhetoric, I hope you fall on your ass trying to get down off your soapbox.


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## Anim8r (Jul 7, 2003)

> Well you do have some valid points but before i question. Have you ever used Shake??? I did once. All i can say is what a pain in the ass.
> 
> THere is no way IMHO that Shake can win out over After Effects. AE is entrenched in the world of SFX and post production. it would be like an other program beating out Photoshop. It would be next to impossible.  if at all.
> 
> I know for me i passed up Shake for AE. and i will continue to do so. [/B]



Just a point about Shake vs. AE.
It really depends on what and where you are working.
I would never consider trying to do a 20 to 30 layer 2K composite in AE... at least not if I wanted to finish the shot this century.
Shake is optimized for large files (think film res) and the node based architecture makes it far more flexible than AE.
Shake is a high-end pro tool and while AE is often used for comps, it is Shake that most of the big studios are using now.


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## Langley (Jul 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by stizz _
> *serpicolugnut,
> when you are done preaching your holier than thou rhetoric, I hope you fall on your ass trying to get down off your soapbox. *



This is what a forum is for


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## Jason (Jul 7, 2003)

please keep the personal insults to a minimum guys, thanks


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## slo (Jul 7, 2003)

Just a note on Live Motion 3 being PC only.....

I believe that Adobe disbanded the Live Motion team, and gave up on trying to beat Flash.

If they resurrect it, there may be a good chance of it being PC only, but last I heard - it was dead.

It's too bad, as I think it had potential.

And..... yes I worry about Mac market share. It needs to rise or we will be very quickly marginalized in this time of fiscal restraint.

Whether it be "actually buying" software or recommending Macs to other users, it all helps.


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## wiz (Jul 7, 2003)

don't worry Apple probably heard all this so did other specialised in video editing ... companies..

something will turn up


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## StichFace (Jul 7, 2003)

" It needs to rise or we will be very quickly marginalized in this time of fiscal restraint.  "

It's already happened. Will never match M$ in strength.


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## Crusty (Jul 7, 2003)

hmmm...maybe a look at the bigger picture...many of the pc users that i have come across who do have any mac experience at all say they wont switch because of the lack of software or delay thereof of the release for the mac...now dont jump all over me...i know macs rock..but this is the stand for many pc users...ok...now for the point...no software for the puter...no puter...get it...hmmm...as a mac user thats kinda scary...will i too be forced into the pc world because no photoshop or quark or illustrator programs for the mac...ouch..or worse yet no macs...double ouch.

just my two cents...spend it as u will


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## serpicolugnut (Jul 7, 2003)

> serpicolugnut, when you are done preaching your holier than thou rhetoric, I hope you fall on your ass trying to get down off your soapbox



Ouch. Looks like my suggestion not to pirate hit a little too close to home for someone.

In case you haven't noticed, MacOSX.com is *everyones*  soapbox. With over 1000 posts to my credit, I'll have no problem climbing down off of it. However, since you only 60 or so posts, you might need someone to hold you hand as you get down off of it.


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## Anim8r (Jul 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Crusty _
> *hmmm...maybe a look at the bigger picture...many of the pc users that i have come across who do have any mac experience at all say they wont switch because of the lack of software or delay thereof of the release for the mac...now dont jump all over me...i know macs rock..but this is the stand for many pc users...ok...now for the point...no software for the puter...no puter...get it...hmmm...as a mac user thats kinda scary...will i too be forced into the pc world because no photoshop or quark or illustrator programs for the mac...ouch..or worse yet no macs...double ouch.
> 
> just my two cents...spend it as u will *



I personally am tired of the "no software" argument. Seeing as how I have never seen an app that isn't either available on both platforms or has an equivalent that is as good or better.

Unless you are talking about games. But I don't play games. I work on my computers .


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## Randman (Jul 7, 2003)

I agree. I can't see anyone in their right mind saying Apple and Mac users are going to suffer because of this. Adobe pulled an unprofitable product because it can't compete with FCP for a number of reasons already mentioned on this thread.
   People get so freaky when they think that Apple's going under any moment. Look back at the threads that came out when M$ said it was dropping future IEs. Everyone assumed that meant Office as well. Well, for now, no, it's just that with Safari and other browsers, there's less interest from Mac users and IE doesn't make M$ any $.
   As for the piracy issue, if Adobe was truly concerned, it would target PeeCee folks for sheer numbers and that mnay have the mindset that it's ok.
   Having worked in SE Asia, I can tell you that it's easy (not as easy as it was a few years ago so some policing is happening) to get pirated software for the pc platform, but dang hard to find it for a Mac.


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## hulkaros (Jul 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Randman _
> *...
> Having worked in SE Asia, I can tell you that it's easy (not as easy as it was a few years ago so some policing is happening) to get pirated software for the pc platform, but dang hard to find it for a Mac. *



...some countries in Europe... Here too, it is damn difficult to find pirated software for Mac! But for Wintel you just ask around and you receive EASILY


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## tsizKEIK (Jul 8, 2003)

nowadays its easier to buy  pirated software for the pc (+ xbox/ps2) than going to the supermarket


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## hulkaros (Jul 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by tsizKEIK _
> *nowadays its easier to buy  pirated software for the pc (+ xbox/ps2) than going to the supermarket  *



lol
But in some "advanced" parts of this world you don't have to go to the supermarket. They have a home/office delivery  

Pirates can't beat that, can they!?


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## pyroboy (Jul 8, 2003)

Premier is dead on the Mac because FCP was a clearly superior product. I cannot think of anyone who uses the product anymore except my cousin and that's because the the instructors at his college designed the coursework around it. 

I understand that it can be hard to compete with Apple when they have a product like Final Cut Pro, but the only one to blame about the demise of Premiere is Adobe. If the product was clearly superior to FCP, Adobe would sell plenty.

But it was always an inferior product. If it was a better product, it would force Apple to continue to be very innovative with Priemiere just to keep up. But that's not an issue. The biggest issue for Apple is to sway people in Hollywood that FCP is the only product that matters. If they can keep doing that, Premiere and Avid would also disappear from Windows as well.

Now if you will excuse me, I have some video footage to edit.


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## Randman (Jul 8, 2003)

Going back to the original claims, I think it's silly to say that piracy was the reason for Adobe's decision; or to claim that this means Adobe will be pulling away from the Mac platform completely, or that Apple will become passive now that it has a near-monopoly on the market.


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## serpicolugnut (Jul 8, 2003)

> Going back to the original claims, I think it's silly to say that piracy was the reason for Adobe's decision; or to claim that this means Adobe will be pulling away from the Mac platform completely, or that Apple will become passive now that it has a near-monopoly on the market.



In the case of Premiere, you are correct - piracy wasn't an issue. However, when looking at PS, AI or ID, piracy of these apps is quite significant. My estimate would probably put pirated copies of these apps on the Mac platform at about 50% worldwide. Sure, that number is probably smaller than the percentage and total numbers of pirated copies of Adobe PC apps, but the sales are larger on the PC side as well. On the Mac side, 50% lost to pirated sales could mean the difference between Adobe having a 15% Mac user base, which is what Premiere was, or a 30% user base, which is what AI/PS are about at. At 15%, Adobe deemed Premiere not important enough to continue development on. At 30%, that decision wouldn't have been made.

I'm not saying Adobe is dropping the Mac tomorrow, or the day after that. But look at the trend. Even though Premiere will probably not be missed on the Mac (since FCP is such a great product - now), it's demise means Adobe is that much less a Mac developer. 4 years ago, everything Adobe made was cross platform. Now, there are 6 applications (Audition, Encore, Premiere, PS Album, Acrobat Elements) that are PC only. My guess is that LiveMotion and Acrobat will be the next to be killed on the Mac. Sure, you might say good riddence to those apps as well since they haven't been stellar releases... But this trend will continue like a snowball rolling down hill, until one day you wake up and Adobe makes one or two applications (if that) for the Mac, and those apps future is in doubt too. With less competition, the remaining developers will not feel quite as pressured to develop killer Mac apps. Just "being there" on the platform will be considered good enough to bring in another 10-20% revenue. This is already a pervasive attitude at many cross platform developers. Anyone here using Lightwave will attest that Newtek has treated their Mac base as second class citizens until recently. Lightwave 7.5c is the 3rd major release of LW for OS X, and it's just now getting plugin parity with the Windows version. 

This scenario is more than just speculation. It's happened already at several software developers over the last 10 years, and it could happen with Adobe as well.

I'm not trying to be all doom and gloom, because there are some positive trends occuring at the same time. But the point of my original post - that piracy hurts Mac software developers and jeopardizes future development on the Mac - is valid and should be considered next time you fire up your P2P client looking for warez.


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## stizz (Jul 8, 2003)

> *In case you haven't noticed, MacOSX.com is everyones  soapbox. With over 1000 posts to my credit, I'll have no problem climbing down off of it. However, since you only 60 or so posts, you might need someone to hold you hand as you get down off of it.
> *


I have a tendency to speak only when I have something to say. Boasting of 1000 posts on a message board is akin to taking pride in the fact that you talk a lot, and the 'soapbox' I was refering to was the one from which you were preaching from. 
You are obviously entitled to your opinion and the right to express it here in these forums, but don't start preaching. Your message to _us_ mac pirates is seeping with moral indignation and is based upon your personal beliefs, not fact. I take much offense to the way you presented your arguement, so I took a swing at you, the poster who has on average posted 1.24 posts per day since 03-20-2001. Ra for you.
It happens to be my opinion that technology would not be as widespread as it is today without piracy. Plus piracy is a boone for companies like Adobe. Their user base grows with every Joe Sixpack who teaches themselves PS7 with a cracked copy. It's just like no publicity is bad publicity, Adobe's user base of pirates insures their longevity. But I don't try and shove my beliefs down the throats of the users in this forum, and I will take offense to those who do. Keep your thoughts on Piracy to yourself and read the Board Rules while your at it.

_No w@r3z - No asking for serialz, hackz, or warez, linking to them, discussing or anything related, including MP3z, Pr0n and related piracy items._


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## mindbend (Jul 8, 2003)

I hate people who do what I'm about to do, but I just can't help myself.

Stizz,

The entire point of this stupid board and others like it is to blab ad infinitum about stuff. It's a virtual soapbox. To ridicule someone for doing so is [insert cruel adjective here]. You're just asking for trouble for no good reason. Your comments have done nothing positive whatsoever for anyone. Thanks a lot.

This thread was moving along at a perfectly noble pace. Some of us respectuflly disagreed with Serp's position, but left it at that. 

On a side note. Your preposterous "Keep your thoughts on piracy to yourself" statement is akin to some kind of cyber-book-burning. Heil Stizz! To make matters worse, and utterly hilarious, is that you ignorantly blaspheme Serp for "violating" some kind of nonexistent rule on discussing Piracy BY PREFACING IT WITH YOUR OPINIONS ON PIRACY! That was just plain brilliant.

Unbefreakinglievable.


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## Randman (Jul 8, 2003)

> My estimate would probably put pirated copies of these apps on the Mac platform at about 50% worldwide.


 And just how did you come up with these numbers??? 50%? Every other version is pirated? From where?
   Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating piracy at all. I full believe in supporting developers and paying for what I use. I'm just saying that your reasoning is quite off-base. Piracy is much higher on the peecee side but you don't hear companies say they'll only build for the Mac platform to prevent people from using their stuff without shilling out.
  Basically Adobe has streamlined its Mac lineup. It sounds like good market sense, especially in tough economic conditions worldwide. This way it concentrates its efforts on apps that do generate revenue.


> that piracy hurts Mac software developers and jeopardizes future development on the Mac


 Piracy hurts everyone except those selling and using the pirated goods. But I don't think a thread that starts ATTENTION MAC PIRATES is going to stop those people from using warez any more than a thread advocating piracy (if allowed on this forum) is going to get people to start looking for cracked versions of PS.
  Not trying to rip you, for I think parts of your argument (piracy is bad) are quite valid, it's just that other parts are questionable, imho.


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## stizz (Jul 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by mindbend _
> *
> The entire point of this stupid board is... etc.
> * to discuss topics of various nature. Whatever, my point was: Just don't get all high and mighty with an opinion lest your post be showered with derision by another with a penchant for knocking preachers off their pedestals.
> ...


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## serpicolugnut (Jul 9, 2003)

> I have a tendency to speak only when I have something to say. Boasting of 1000 posts on a message board is akin to taking pride in the fact that you talk a lot, and the 'soapbox' I was refering to was the one from which you were preaching from.



Funny how you've been the only one to feel I was "preaching". I simply made an observation that piracy is hurting Mac software development. Apparently it hit a little close to home with you, because you seem a bit irate over it. Oh well. I never claimed to give everybody the warm fuzzies....



> You are obviously entitled to your opinion and the right to express it here in these forums, but don't start preaching. Your message to us mac pirates is seeping with moral indignation and is based upon your personal beliefs, not fact.



Thanks for re-enforcing my first amendment rights. I feel much better now. My message about piracy was based on facts, not opinions.

Fact - Every piece of pirated software in use is lost revenue to a software developer. You can rationalize it till the cows come home, but if it's being used, and it wasn't paid for it, it's stolen goods.

Fact - The smaller ecosystem of the Mac platform is more fragile than the PC platform, and can't sustain large numbers of piracy without consequences. Those consequences usually turn out to be consolidation on one platform - Windows, leaving us Mac users with fewer software choices. This wasn't the determining factor in Premieres demise on the Mac, but could be in other software in the future. Look at Microsoft Office for the Mac. It's probably one of the most pirated Mac apps. Many Mac users who wouldn't normally pirate an app, will pirate Office because they feel that MS is evil (I agree, but that's another topic). Microsoft is going to look at their Mac sales one day, and if they aren't making significiant income on the product, it's going to be killed. Would the Mac survive without Office? Probably. Would the loss be significant? Definitely. Apple would have a harder time sellling to corporate customers than it already has. Sales would be lower. The notion that Apple is dying would be constantly bandied about in the press. And other developers would become concerened over developing for the Mac. 



> It happens to be my opinion that technology would not be as widespread as it is today without piracy. Plus piracy is a boone for companies like Adobe. Their user base grows with every Joe Sixpack who teaches themselves PS7 with a cracked copy. It's just like no publicity is bad publicity, Adobe's user base of pirates insures their longevity.



It happens to be your opinion, and it's wrong. Your statement "Adobe's user base of pirates insures their longevity" assumes that Adobe can make money so long as everybody is using their software, and whether they pay for it is irrelevent. Well, without the money from the sale of PS7, Adobe will have a hard time rationalizing continued development of the application. Adobe's employees don't work for the goal of having everybody use Photoshop. They work for the goal of having the most people possible buy and use Photoshop. 

I continually hear this argument from students trying to justify piracy. When I was younger I bought in to this rationalization as well. Trouble is, I was wrong then, as you are now. 

Students don't make as much money as professionals do, and buying software is much harder for them to do. The average student cannot afford the $699 price of Adobe Photoshop, so they opt to steal it instead, with the justification that it's just until they learn the application so they can make money and buy their own copy.

Here's the problem. Every software developer makes available Education discounts, that are substantial. Most of Adobe and Macromedia's apps can be had for under $100 to any student, teacher, or faculty of an education institution. I now students will still cry poverty and claim that's too much. These are the same ones who will drop $60 at a time on music CDs or spend $50 on a night of drinking with friends, so I don't buy it.

The other problem is that students who learn on pirated copies just don't learn the value of the tool they are using. They don't appreciate it. Most pirates don't wake up one day and finally decide to become legit (some do, most dont). 

And finally, it just hurts the entire graphic design business. When a student with a pirated copy bids on a job, he doesn't have the same overhead that a legit professional designer has. The student can lowball on the job due to no overhead. Pretty soon, you have lots of psuedo designers undercutting pros, and the entire perception of what a designer is worth has been reduced. Think this is far-fetched? It's already happened. Just about every job I bid on I go up against somebody's cousin/friends son/etc who low balls a bid and doesn't have the skillset, but has a pirated copy of <insert pro app here> and thinks they can build a website/design a catalog/make a promo video/etc. Thankfully I have a decent portfolio and can justify my costs. But I have lost clients to these lowballers (as have others) and it does hurt the entire industry.

Really, which do you think Adobe would rather have - 100 people pirating their app saying how wonderful it is (your "good publicity statement", or 10 people who paid for the app. In the former, Adobe doesn't make a dime. In the latter, they make over $6999 (based on $699 for PS7). I'm not sure what business classes you've taken, but I'm pretty sure you can appreciate that $6999 in income is much better than $0 and a bit of praise.

Finally, Randman asks:


> And just how did you come up with these numbers??? 50%? Every other version is pirated? From where?



That was my worldwide figure estimate. It was based upon taking the two major markets for software - the US and Asia, and averaging their piracy nubmers last stated by the BSA. Piracy in the USA is about every 1 in 3 copies - 33%. Piracy in Asia is at an astounding 95%. So my estimate was based upon averaging these figures together. Yes, it's hardly hard science, but it's probably in the ball park. Of course, it could be as low as 33%, or as high as 80-90%, when you factor in other markets like S. America, Europe, Austrailia, etc. But for simplicities sake, I just averaged the two biggest markets.


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## tsizKEIK (Jul 9, 2003)

im leavin on vacation 2morrow and unfortunately i dont have time to read all of this thread. its a shame because as i skimmed through the pages it seems there are very interestin opinions

from my point of view: 
piratin does hurt every1. more piratin --> less profit for future developement ---> less improvement in future products
in the end its worse for us users 
that i why i payed $129 to update to Jaguar, to get a better panther in the future etc...

on the other hand, products such as Photoshop or Corel Draw are quite expensive.. if i lived in a country such a Sweden where u get discounts for students id buy no pirated software. but here in Greece u can barely find any original software for MAcs 


i dont have any more time...
i know my throughts are kind of scrambled and incomplete... anyways... 

   MACS rule


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## Randman (Jul 9, 2003)

Those numbers are laughable. Enron couldn't cook up numbers like that. 1 in 3 in the US? And 95% of Asia? As I said earlier, I worked in Singapore for 3 years as a graphic designer and there's no way in hell that figure could be close, even for p2p music or PC apps.
  As I've also said before, I agree with your anti-piracy stance 100% (or at least 95%), but the logic you give to make you points is pretty hard to swallow.
   First, you claimed that Adobe pulled Premiere due to Mac piracy, then you said Apple had no incentive to continue innovating its product line. You've also said that the entire platform could be jeopardized by piracy. And I have to, respectfully, disagree.
  Prices may be passed on to consumers to combat piracy, but I don't see how the Apple platform could be jeopardised.
   Unless you took BSA numbers which would probably claim that 90% of computers owners are Mac only with Linux at 6.5% and "others" rounding out the figure, piracy on the Apple platform is but a drop in the bucket compared to the Dark Side.
  Yeah, it's there, but a small number compared to the warez found on the M$ side.
  You mention Office as a Mac product often pirated. Yes, there are pirated copies which force M$ to raise the price for the rest of us who pay for it. But as many copies are pirated, many, many more are purchased because it's a good product. M$ won't kill the product because some cheap bastards rather get a cracked version on the sly. But the company might if Apple (or another developer) comes up with something as good (or better) for a fair price.
   But for argument's sake, let's say M$ did drop Office tomorrow. You don't think there'd be a gaggle of developers salivating for a piece of the pie, even if some crumbs are stolen? The void would be filled.
   Piracy is bad, mmmkay? But many if your arguments in this thread are quite off-base. Best thing to do to stem piracy is if every Mac person could get just one peecee peep to switch over to the good guys since the Jolly Roger doesn't fly as high or as far on the Apple side.


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## serpicolugnut (Jul 9, 2003)

Here's the BSA figures on piracy...

In America... 

From the site: "With an already-low piracy rate  the lowest in the world  the rate in North America declined moderately, from 32% in 1994 to 24% in 2002. The 2002 U.S. piracy rate of 23% is a drop of eight points from 31% in 1994, still the lowest of all countries worldwide."

In China/Asia... 

From the site: "Chinas piracy rate showed modest improvement. Its rate changed only five points, from 97% in 1994 to 92% in 2002."

So the figures of 1 in 3 in America and 95% in Asia were a little outdated, but still pretty accurate.



> ...piracy on the Apple platform is but a drop in the bucket compared to the Dark Side.



Absolutely. But the PC side is bolstered by sheer volume. Look at this hypothetical scenario...

Say Adobe's product piracy rate is 50% the Mac, and for arguments sake, 75% for the PC. Adobe sells 100,000 copies of app for PC, 20,000 for the Mac. Although the piracy rate on the Mac is less, it still hurts the Mac sales more because of the lower overall numbers. The PC side can withstand the effects of piracy better due to sheer overall volume. 



> First, you claimed that Adobe pulled Premiere due to Mac piracy, then you said Apple had no incentive to continue innovating its product line.



See previous - I stated that piracy probably didn't contriubute to Premieres demise. As for Apple/innovation - time will tell. Competition is the number one incentive for continued innovation. No competition, usually means less innovation. Will Apple buck the trend? I  hope so. But for proof of this, just look to MS. They do their best work when they are trying to beat their competition in to submission. Once they achieve this goal, their products become stale and boring.



> But for argument's sake, let's say M$ did drop Office tomorrow. You don't think there'd be a gaggle of developers salivating for a piece of the pie, even if some crumbs are stolen? The void would be filled.



Probably. Then again, Apple would probably release their own Office suite, and the smaller developers who filled the void in the interim would be crushed. But that's left to another discussion....


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## chevy (Jul 9, 2003)

I hope anti-piracy technologies will be good enough to stop piracy. So when someone buys a PC, he will pay for Windows XXX too ($125 in Switzerland for an OEM version ), pay for Office ($400-800),... and then slowly understand that the software that is bundled with a Mac is worth some $$$.


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## slo (Jul 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by serpicolugnut _
> * My guess is that LiveMotion and Acrobat will be the next to be killed on the Mac. *



Once again...... I think Live Motion is dead, so in this case I think your guess is off the mark.... unless you know something I don't.

I agree with you in general. I just wanted to clarify this.... again.

slo


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## Androo (Jul 9, 2003)

hey, wouldnt this mean that Final Cut Pro will now be pirated? 
though downloading it would take days (since its about 1 gig).......


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## boi (Jul 9, 2003)

actually, isn't FCP4 something absurd like 4 dvds?


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## Randman (Jul 9, 2003)

> Aided by considerable decreases in the piracy rates of each of the six regions defined by the study, the 2002 world piracy rate of 39% is 10 points below the piracy rate measured in 1994.



http://global.bsa.org/globalstudy/


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## plastic (Jul 10, 2003)

serpicolugnut, thanks for the article. And as per normal, there are many many-of-view why Adobe did this and that. 

But I honour your stand against piracy as it hurt everything and everyone (except the pirates themselves) and I believe that we should do our part to minimise piracy. 

It is a never ending war against piracy and there is no way this war will end anytime soon. If anyone is using an app frequently enough, then pay for it. Short and simple. 

Thanks for everyone's opinion. 

I am a composer by profession in Asia, and depended on royalties to make a living and the drop in my income only shows that piracy is now a major problem, but of course, I will not write off greedy record labels making false claims. 

Well, that is life.


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## Fahrvergnuugen (Jul 11, 2003)

Adobe dropped Premier because it is severly inferior to Final Cut Pro. I've been a film student for 4 years and I've been using FCP that long... so I know something about this [just look at my site: www.sickdimension.com].

This is a case of survival of the fittest... What competitors to photoshop are there?? Photoshop is king of its kind, just like FCP is king in the world of video editing.

Apple will continue to make FCP the best video editing software there is because its _mac only_ which means: in order to use the best desktop video editing software, you have to buy a mac!


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## Androo (Jul 11, 2003)

The following things are on my comp "pirated":
Flash MX
Fireworks MX
Final Cut Express
VPC 6

Flash MX: i never really use, i just wanted a little trial that is over 1 month, just to fool around with it a bit, and i'm not ready to spend money for something like that.
Fireworks MX: I own Photoshop. I dont even use Fireworks lol. It's just an app that i thought looked cool. I'll prolly trash it.
Final Cut Express: I don't use this, lol i dont have a digital camera. But it is bound to come in handy one of these days.
Virtual PC 6: I paid soooooo much money for Virtual PC 5. I was completely disappointed. It was sooo slow, you wouldn't believe it. So i downloaded VPC 6 update, and i was happy! And i only use it for making extra game stuff, like characters for diablo ii.
OS X 10.1: I didn't pay for. That's because it was FREEEEEEEEE when i walked into the store!


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## solrac (Jul 11, 2003)

My opinions:
1) It is well known that Adobe supports piracy. Of course, they publicly say that pirating is bad (as everyone should say), but c'mon. Obviously Adobe has made it SO EASY to pirate photoshop so that so MANY MILLIONS of people have it, that it actually increases their Photoshop sales. If Adobe didn't want Photoshop pirated, they would make it more difficult to pirate. I personally know 3 people who bought photoshop after having a pirated copy for a few years. (They finally had enough money to buy it.) They would have NEVER bought Photoshop if they couldn't have played with a pirated version for so long. Adobe knows this. Pirating helps Adobe. It's a hard concept to grasp, but it's true. I too plan on buying Photoshop pretty soon, as soon as I can drop the $600.

2. Premiere couldn't compete with FCP. That's why it got killed. No other reason. The Photoshop issue above applies to every adobe program.

And.. AFAIK Livemotion was discontinued a long time ago!


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## Dime5150 (Jul 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by serpicolugnut _
> * I now students will still cry poverty and claim that's too much. These are the same ones who will drop $60 at a time on music CDs or spend $50 on a night of drinking with friends, so I don't buy it.
> 
> *



Please don't generalize students.

I think the software prices are way to high. I don't drink every night and drop money on cds like you say.. I have STUDENT LOANS that i'm saving to pay for. 

Some students don't spend time wasting money drinking, pirating, and dropping money on cds (by the way why do you think students will BUY cds? I thought you would think they pirate music as well according to your logic).


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## Arden (Jul 11, 2003)

Piracy hurts everyone because the software companies have to charge more for their software to make a substantial profit.  Imagine if everyone who had a computer bought Photoshop, and vowed to continue buying Photoshop (if there were no upgrade price).  Now, would Adobe still charge $600 for it, or would they charge something like $300-400 due to sheer volume?


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## fryke (Jul 11, 2003)

Hmm... Such a long and old story. Let's recap...

1.) Adobe has learned that Apple is a strong software competitor.
2.) Adobe decided not to code Premiere for the Mac any longer.
3.) Here we are amidst a piracy discussion.

So... My thoughts?

1.) Piracy is wrong. Don't do it.
2.) If you still do it, don't discuss it. Either have no regrets or stop doing it.
3.) Pay the software you're using.
4.) Piracy is _also_ helping Adobe. I know it's kind of a mute point, but some people just can't afford to buy a Photoshop license. They're learning to use the application in a pirated version. And if they're good at it, they're likely to buy the thing later on.


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## tamma (Jul 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Fahrvergnuugen _
> *Adobe dropped Premier because it is severly inferior to Final Cut Pro. I've been a film student for 4 years and I've been using FCP that long... so I know something about this [just look at my site: www.sickdimension.com]. *



I know this is off topic but. i am also an indi filmmaker and i was wondering where did you get the mounting rig???? did you make it yourself????? i have been using sandbags and such and it just plain sucks. please let me know i have been wanting a rig like that for a while.


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## hulkaros (Jul 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arden _
> *Piracy hurts everyone because the software companies have to charge more for their software to make a substantial profit.  Imagine if everyone who had a computer bought Photoshop, and vowed to continue buying Photoshop (if there were no upgrade price).  Now, would Adobe still charge $600 for it, or would they charge something like $300-400 due to sheer volume? *



M$ Office is something that millions bought it and still costs anything >=$400 

I don't think that Adobe or any other big software house would lower their prices THAT much even in that scenario


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## wiz (Jul 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by solrac _
> *My opinions:
> 1) It is well known that Adobe supports piracy. Of course, they publicly say that pirating is bad (as everyone should say), but c'mon. Obviously Adobe has made it SO EASY to pirate photoshop so that so MANY MILLIONS of people have it, that it actually increases their Photoshop sales. If Adobe didn't want Photoshop pirated, they would make it more difficult to pirate. I personally know 3 people who bought photoshop after having a pirated copy for a few years. (They finally had enough money to buy it.) They would have NEVER bought Photoshop if they couldn't have played with a pirated version for so long. Adobe knows this. Pirating helps Adobe. It's a hard concept to grasp, but it's true. I too plan on buying Photoshop pretty soon, as soon as I can drop the $600.
> *




lol thats what Microsoft did to get windows popular.. and now they have problems stopping it..


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## karavite (Jul 26, 2003)

Coming from one who has paid for various Adobe products and upgrades for years, I think their pricing is absurd and their UI's drive me nuts. I honestly don't like how their apps function and would jump to a competing product in a hearbeat. FCP for example - it's awseome and Premiere probably knew they didn't stand a chance on the Mac platform. For other Adobe apps, I'm not an desktop image pro, but I'll be damned if I will shell out yet another $300 or more to Adobe for a photoshop upgrade and I am content with launching classic and 5.5 for the few times my other OS X image apps aren't up to the task (which is less often all the time).


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## serpicolugnut (Jul 27, 2003)

> Coming from one who has paid for various Adobe products and upgrades for years, I think their pricing is absurd and their UI's drive me nuts.



Their pricing on their pro products is in line with what other pro products cost. If you are actually using these tools to make money, the cost of owning them isn't that bad. 

As for the UI... Well, I'm always one to argue that UI can always be better, but I believe Adobe has a top notch, across the board easy to use interface for all of it's apps... Premiere included (by 6.5 the app sucked, but it's UI was still quite easy to learn in contrast with FCP).

For those who don't want to shell out the big $$$ for Photoshop, but need more than GraphicConverter does, look to MicroFrontier's ColorIt. ColorIt was a low end competitor to PS back around version 3. The product languished after version 4, and that's where it sits today. But MicroFrontier is reviving the program for OS X, and will be releasing it soon. At $50, it gives you the basics of Photoshop. If you need more, there's always Photoshop Elements for under $100. So even if you are not a pro and can't afford the full price of Photoshop, there are options available to you that don't require pirating...


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## Jack Hammer (Jul 27, 2003)

i just want to say all people using these programs to make money...small business, freelance and etc should be paying for it.



but the reality is that student pirates should be appreciative now of anything they can get and should pay when they have the means to do so.


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## Randman (Jul 27, 2003)

> student pirates should be appreciative now of anything they can get and should pay when they have the means to do so.


 It's wrong no matter when. I would think a student might have more opportunities to not do it. Using someone's computer or a uni computer, getting the folks to buy it, getting a student discount. And the earlier one gets in the notion that stealing is acceptable, the harder it will  be to stop later on.


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## Romendo (Jul 27, 2003)

I talked about this with my co-worker. He says he is supporting the "small guys", hence he is buying games and other software that is not from MS. When it comes to Windows or Office he says it is okay to just get it from someone. This attitude really bothers me because you can't just make wrong things sound right just because the party concerned is rich and/or a monopoly.

Stealing will always be wrong no matter if the guy "deserved" it or not.


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## Arden (Jul 27, 2003)

[fictional story with moral]So anyway, the other day I needed a part for my car, but I didn't have the money for it.  So I decided to steal it.  I installed the piece and now the car works.  I think I should probably pay for it, but I'll do it when I have the money.  I'm still supporting the company that made the part, though, because I use their product.[/fictional story with moral]

The same goes for software.  You can justify it all you want, but if you didn't pay for the software, it's illegal and it doesn't support the company because it doesn't make them money.  If you buy the product later down the road, then you are supporting them at that point, but not before that.

Certain companies like Microshaft don't care _how_ much they sell of a product, they will still charge the same arm and leg for it.  But other companies may be more reasonable:  If Adobe sold a copy of Photoshop to every Mac user in the entire digital world, do you think they would keep the price at $600, or would they lower it because they can sell more units of it and make much more money?

Of course, if they sold it to everyone, it wouldn't make a difference, but that's not the point.


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## boi (Jul 27, 2003)

that story would only pertain to software if the following were true:
you looked at the car part a lot. you read the brand name over and over and over again.
you told your friends about the car part. "this is a great car part!" you say. "one day i will buy one just like it!"
you show your friends your car. "you know, this car wouldn't be the same without that car part. that car part created this car." and there was a place where you and a bunch of friends with that same car part could show off their cars. "i made this car with the adobe car part! see how badass it is?"

you see, since you could not afford the car part, you had two options. let's explore them, shall we?
1: you did not buy the car part.
this results in you not talking about the car part, you not reading the label every day, and you not becoming acquainted with the car part. you are not a part of the car part community. you do not know how to use the car part.

2: you steal the car part (more like clone it and steal the clone)
you see the adobe label on your car part. eventually you decide adobe is the best creator of car parts ever. you tell your friends about the car part, and you show off your car, which was created because of this car part. when the car starts generating revenue (don't ask), then you purchase that car part, and every subsequent car part from then on.


i think a lot of people underestimate the huge marketing advantage of having a good percentage of the world using your product. pretty soon everyone knows you have a fantastic product, and everyone has heard of you. this only pertains to large corporations, of course. joe developer will go out of business if people start pirating his little productivity app. huge corporations do not rely on joe developer's productivity app, and only the casual consumers are pirating it. doh. joe developer is hungry.


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## Arden (Jul 27, 2003)

Only if Joe Developer makes a business selling his minorware.

I like the "when the car starts generating revenue (don't ask)" part.  LOL!

*LOL!*


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## serpicolugnut (Jul 27, 2003)

> i think a lot of people underestimate the huge marketing advantage of having a good percentage of the world using your product. pretty soon everyone knows you have a fantastic product, and everyone has heard of you. this only pertains to large corporations, of cours



I think too many people here OVER estimate the marketing advantage of having a good percentage of the world using your product.

Adobe could give a rats rear end about the 100,000 people pirating their software. These people don't contribute to the companys bottom line one iouta. Adobe doesn't pay their engineers good money to make a product that will do real well on Carracho or Hotline. They make a product that will SELL real well. Can I say that again - SELL real well. Adobe doesn't benefit from the goodwill of piraters just because they are using their product. Adobe has the image manipulation market wrapped up. They don't need to do any promotion (apart from announcing a new version). Remember, the only company that feels the only way to compete is to give away their product to decimate the competition is Microsoft (as they did with IE to kill Netscape). But once they get you hooked they make you pay for it (like the pushers they are). 

Ardens example is right on the money. Any disagreement on the issue is just further paddling down the denial river...


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## fryke (Jul 28, 2003)

It's been a good start for the thread, but now we're beating the horse that has been dead the _last_ time we've been beating it.

Please accept that there are several opinions about this.

Yes, Adobe _was_ (and maybe is) happy that their software was spread around the world, because it helped Adobe sell more copies of their software later. ("The kid that can't afford a Photoshop license grew up with a pirated copy and later paid for a license when actually working for money." type of story.)

At the same time, you're right Serpicolugnut: Those people don't contribute to the company's bottom line one iota. However: If pirating were impossible, they wouldn't either. Then they'd use some free/cheap alternative. So Adobe, actually, doesn't have to care about them.

And a third opinion: Software piracy is stealing. Stealing is illegal in many countries around the world (and in yours, too, probably). So, if you steal software, you're a thief. The fact that the probability of getting caught is small doesn't make it legal.

And a fourth: Who cares? Adobe is a company that has been making money. If they start _not_ making any money, they're a bad company, as companies like Adobe are, basically, about making profit. There _ARE_ means to make it more difficult to pirate software (USB dongles, internet activation of software, MAC address combination for serial numbers etc.) and Adobe could use it. Adobe, however, has chosen the smart option: "Let's use the pretty simple serial number option. Yes, there will be pirating, but the professionals pay us, because they actually know what we're giving them."


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## Arden (Jul 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by fryke _
> *...MAC address combination...*


That gave me an interesting, though unlikely, idea.

What if you had to register a product, say Adobe's products, online, including giving them your home or business address.  Then a representative from Adobe comes to your house or office, you show him/her your proof of purchase, and (s)he registers the product for you.  That would definitely deter piracy, though the inefficiency and cost would probably cost more than Adobe loses to warez in the first place.

Besides, haven't you ever beat a dead horse with a golf club until it was mashed into spaghetti sauce, then burned the remains with lighter fluid and tossed it into a trash compactor, then encased what was left in cement and thrown it into the sea?  For frykin' out loud...


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## Darkshadow (Jul 28, 2003)

I don't think there are very many companies at all that would  consider going _that_ route.  They'd have to open up shops all over the place just so they could send representatives out.


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## Jack Hammer (Jul 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Randman _
> *It's wrong no matter when. I would think a student might have more opportunities to not do it. Using someone's computer or a uni computer, getting the folks to buy it, getting a student discount. And the earlier one gets in the notion that stealing is acceptable, the harder it will  be to stop later on. *




you're right but if you have no money and is broke as hell i say let the little bastards cheat. 

i happen t o know of a bunch of companies i work for taht doesn't pay for every install - they should be the ones that people go after.


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## Randman (Jul 28, 2003)

> you're right but if you have no money and is broke as hell i say let the little bastards cheat.


 When do you draw the line? What if someone wants something and is low on money? Or saving up for a new car? Stealing is stealing. How would you like it some broke, cheap bastard stole the apps from your computer? Or stole your computer? But you're right. If they have no money and are broke as hell, I say let the little bastards take whatever they want from you. There's been plenty of threads on this board about cheap, legal and viable alternatives.


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## serpicolugnut (Jul 28, 2003)

All of this (with regard to Adobes apps, at least) will soon become moot. Adobe has been testing out product activation in Austrailia I hear, and will be going international with the program real soon.

Basically, that means that instead of entering a sn#, you will have to call Adobe to activate the product (like Windows) and you will be tied to that machine unless you call and transfer the license to another machine. 

I'm not a big fan of this, but I can understand why they are doing it. Personally, I'd rather they take the dongle approach. I used to be very anti-dongle, but having used one now for almost 2 years with Lightwave, it doesn't bother me much, and allows me to install my software on multiple machines, and just move the dongle with me as I work. My only complaint about the Newtek dongle is that I wish it was a Pass-Through dongle, so it didn't waste a USB port.

Adobe went the dongle route back in the After Effects 2.5 days, so I doubt they will back track to it. But they seem very enamored with the product activiation pilot program, so I'm sure we'll all be seeing that here in the US real soon....


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## kcwookie (Jul 28, 2003)

Regardless of what Adobe does Apple still has to put full effort into keeping FCP/FCE top notch apps.  Apple still has to compete against Adobe, but now it is a Mac vs. Winblows thing and the stakes are higher.  If Adobe makes a better product then FCP/FCE, people will switch, and the results will be worse.

Nothing has changed.


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## fryke (Jul 28, 2003)

Hmm... I don't think Adobe would go activation. The one big company that tried it out has shown that as soon as the thing is released (and even before that, actually) there are loopholes to be found in the activation code that enable 'bad minds' to write registration key generators (because actually you still just have to 'guess' a number in order to turn the software functional).

It's a lot of effort (call centers, internet registration stuff) that doesn't really pay off - plus you _do_ upset your customers with product activation (at least if done the Microsoft way...).


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## Arden (Jul 28, 2003)

_Anything_ done the Microsoft way upsets customers.


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## serpicolugnut (Jul 28, 2003)

> Hmm... I don't think Adobe would go activation



They already are... 

Austrailia is a test run. It will make it's way to the rest of the world in time for the PS8 roll out later in the fall...

Personally, I prefer the dongle to activation, but so long as Adobe is forgiving in their granting of codes (allowing for OS reinstalls, 2nd machine), which it sounds like they will be, I won't be too bothered by it.


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## serpicolugnut (Jul 28, 2003)

Here it is from the horses mouth....

Adobe testing DRM in Austrailia


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## Arden (Jul 28, 2003)

Hey Serp, aren't you a TV lawyer?  ...who?


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## serpicolugnut (Jul 29, 2003)

No, my namesake is part NY Cop... The lugnut is just to make it all sound interesting....


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## Jack Hammer (Jul 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Randman _
> *When do you draw the line? What if someone wants something and is low on money? Or saving up for a new car? Stealing is stealing. How would you like it some broke, cheap bastard stole the apps from your computer? Or stole your computer? But you're right. If they have no money and are broke as hell, I say let the little bastards take whatever they want from you. There's been plenty of threads on this board about cheap, legal and viable alternatives. *



like a lot of things...it comes doen to human decency. if that person has no morals whatsoever, there is nothing any company can do to prevent him. 

hey...show me a solution then  i'll comment. but as of right now i think students should do whatever is necessary to graduate and be appreciative when they graduate and get jobs.

(also my last post was charged but it was in response to my earlier post in which i specified students are in need more than just cheap bastards)


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## fryke (Jul 29, 2003)

Students _do_ have money. Not much, of course, but they do. For a lot of software, there are educational versions that do cost much less. Try and get your rebates.

To make a very bad comparison: Only because you're a poor student doesn't mean you go out and steal a car, right? ;-)


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## serpicolugnut (Jul 30, 2003)

fryke - a better comparison would be...

Just because you are a student, you don't have the right to walk in to a book store and walk out with any book without paying...software is no different...

The argument of "I'm a student, I'm poor" is bunk. Adobe/Macromedia/Apple all have quite affordable student pricing. All that's required is to show your student ID. 

This thread has become quite illuminating on the many excuses people use to justify stealing....


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## fryke (Jul 30, 2003)

What really interests me is how this whole thing came into being. I remember 'the beginning' quite well (or at least _my_ beginning). I was a little child and my father had some LPs. I wanted to listen to them in my room, and all I had was a tape. It was natural, from the beginning, to copy the LPs to tapes. Soon I would make copies for a friend and vice versa. I think 'sharing', that old way (personally), was something that was quite usual. And right THERE it didn't harm the artists at all. In fact THERE it was good for them, because quite a few friends of mine later on _bought_ the album. Copying to cassettes was free promotion for the record labels. Why? Because the quality sucked. I was never able to create a tape copy that came near the original vinyl record.

Then my first computer. There was a _LOT_ of free- and shareware for the Atari ST. I couldn't afford the games at the store, so I played the free ones, or the first three levels of a demo. I even coded some myself (with a pirated copy of GFA Basic 2, later I bought GFA Basic 3).

But I _bought_ my word processing application (Script! by ASH, a simpler and nicer Signum).

Now... That software cost 60 to 200 CHF, which is around 40 to 150 USD. When I bought my first Mac, it had Claris Works on it. So I used that for a long time. AppleWorks still comes with consumer Macs. (Just a side note: Your teacher/professor wants you to have MS compatibility? Tell him to give you a few hundred bucks, for chrisssakes!) But Photoshop interested me. I wasn't a college student, when I started to do graphics design. I was something like a highschool scholar. I had _no_ money. I was _given_ Photoshop 2.5 by a friend (not donated, a pirated copy). And I learned that thing. Didn't even KNOW what it cost (or that I did something wrong).

When I heard what Photoshop costs, I had two options: Stop using the copy already on my computer or become instantly rich. I guess you know that becoming rich instantly is something quite difficult. What did I do? I kept on using pirate copies and became IT admin and graphics designer in a small company. I was the one who urged them to buy enough licenses for all the workstations.

I think it's still a personal decision. (Mostly because BSA won't come after you if you have unlicensed copies of, say, three software titles for your personal use.) Even though I am all for legal copies of the software you use, I say: DO get pirate copies. DO learn the software. Trash it if you're not gonna use it, any way. Buy it if you're using it.

But heck! Much too much software is much too expensive. I'm not talking about Photoshop here. Those tools are very advanced. But there SHOULD be something like AppleWorks (but better) with good Office compatibility for less than 100 USD.

And I'd love to see Photoshop Elements be improved, also for the Mac. Because _that's_ the way to go for Adobe. PS Elements is not crippled, it's only lacking the Pro features. Do the same for Illustrator and InDesign. Do the same for GoLive. And yep: Finally Adobe can a) get more customers and b) make piracy less attractive by doing POSITIVE thinking.


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## Perseus (Jul 30, 2003)

I know this has nothing to do with pirating, but if anyone here is low on money and does not want to be guilty of stealing, I recommend visiting the Free Store in the Williamsburg section of Brooklyn, NY.  

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/news/WABC_lifehere_092702free.html


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## Vyper (Jul 30, 2003)

If you're not afraid of being shot


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## Perseus (Jul 30, 2003)

Hey Vyper, Brooklyn aint as bad as the stereotypes make it out to be!!! It's a great place. Can you buy a gun in WalMart in Texas?


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## tonbo (Jul 30, 2003)

After 11 or so years of being a Mac guy, it's amazing how many horrible pieces of software have been churned out at ridiculous prices. Quark Xpress comes to mind . . . it's an inferior product (at least inferior to InDesign) but due to industry-wide acceptance (like it or not, for one reason or another, InDesign and PageMaker just fell by the wayside) Quark is still able to charge $1200 for a program that is about as technically advanced as MacWrite.

Horrible software should die. Do not mourn Premiere, and do not blame it on pirates. Premiere was incredibly difficult to learn, but I picked up FCP in a couple of sessions. The best product will prevail in the marketplace, regardless if it is free, stolen or bought.

Now if more "consumer-friendly" versions of software (viz. FCP Express) were available, then your average Joe student who cannot afford to spend more for one software product than an entire personal computing system would not be tempted to pirate.

See entry under "Music industry sales losing billions due to filesharing."

Then see Apple's Music store.


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## tonbo (Jul 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Perseus _
> *Hey Vyper, Brooklyn aint as bad as the stereotypes make it out to be!!! It's a great place. Can you buy a gun in WalMart in Texas?  *



Speaking of guns and Brooklyn, I hear there is a steakhouse called Peter Luger there. Will you treat me?


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## tonbo (Jul 30, 2003)

After 11 or so years of being a Mac guy, it's amazing how many horrible pieces of software have been churned out at ridiculous prices. Quark Xpress comes to mind . . . it's an inferior product (at least inferior to InDesign) but due to industry-wide acceptance (like it or not, for one reason or another, InDesign and PageMaker just fell by the wayside) Quark is still able to charge $1200 for a program that is about as technically advanced as MacWrite.

Horrible software should die. Do not mourn Premiere, and do not blame it on pirates. Premiere was incredibly difficult to learn, but I picked up FCP in a couple of sessions. The best product will prevail in the marketplace, regardless if it is free, stolen or bought.

Now if more "consumer-friendly" versions of software (viz. FCP Express) were available, then your average Joe student who cannot afford to spend more for one software product than an entire personal computing system would not be tempted to pirate.

See entry under "Music industry sales losing billions due to filesharing."

Then see Apple's Music store.


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## tonbo (Jul 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by serpicolugnut _
> *fryke - a better comparison would be...
> 
> Just because you are a student, you don't have the right to walk in to a book store and walk out with any book without paying...software is no different...
> ...



To "rip off" means to steal. This definition works both ways. When is an overpriced, rushed-to-market piece of inferior software product a blatant ripoff for consumers, especially when they are forced to pay for "upgrades" (read: bug fixes) every six months? Sure, many programmers work for long hours and deserve to be paid fully for their time, but if they turn out a lousy product--just like a "Planet of the Apes" with Mark Wahlberg--aren't they ripping off the consumer, who shells out hard-earned cash to subsidize them?

In most industries the success or failure of a product depends upon the competitiveness of the product coupled with the affordability to the desired customer base. In other words, a Mercedes with the performance of a Ford Escort will not sell well if the Rolls Royce sells for the same amount and performs like a Roll Royce.

But the software industry is still charging Rolls Royce prices for essentially a product that, once created, is as easy to produce as a page from a copy machine.

Hate to go on, but this analogy also extends to drug companies . . .

Point is, don't rip us (the average consumer) off by charging WAAAY too much for your product, and then we won't be tempted to "not be extortioned."


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## Perseus (Jul 30, 2003)

Sure!!   Remember tonbo, if you want to go to Peter Luger's you can only pay cash,  and as one friend said: "If you see someone walk in with a violin case, leave immediately!!"


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## serpicolugnut (Jul 30, 2003)

> Point is, don't rip us (the average consumer) off by charging WAAAY too much for your product, and then we won't be tempted to "not be extortioned."



Huh?....

First of all, if you are concerned about shelling out big $$$ for an app before actually using, there are several avenues to explore before buying that can give you the information you need...First off, most developers give you the option of downloading a demo, many of which will run full featured for up to 30 days. Second off, you can actually do a little RESEARCH before buying, and read reviews.

Finally, there are "light" versions of many of these programs available for very little money (PS Elements, Final Cut Express) aimed at those who can't afford the pro apps, but need some of the functionality.

Your argument is still just rationalizing stealing. There is always going to be SOMEBODY who will claim the product isn't worth the money being asked for it, and will then claim they are just fighting back against the evil company who is trying to rip off the consumer.

Using this analogy, I could go to a car dealer and steal a Hummer2 and justify  it, because it was waay overpriced, and the manufacturer was just ripping off the consumer.

Puhlease...


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## Jack Hammer (Jul 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by fryke _
> *Students _do_ have money. Not much, of course, but they do. For a lot of software, there are educational versions that do cost much less. Try and get your rebates.
> 
> To make a very bad comparison: Only because you're a poor student doesn't mean you go out and steal a car, right? ;-) *



...

i think you're right but there is no way a student can afford to get the full suite with peripheral apps and upgrade every year to keep up along with tuition and living expenses.

i dont endorse stealing and piracy but i do endorse a better solution ( a new solution).

such as software companies sponsoring classes with 4 yr licences. internship programs in exchange for credits/software package.


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## Arden (Jul 30, 2003)

Do any of you read mac magazines like Mac Addict or Macworld?  Have you ever actuall looked through the 25 or so pages of ads in the back of either?  Look toward the back of them... you will find a box for a company with academic discounts!  In the June 2003 Macworld sitting next to me, this comes on p. 132, out of 136.  (Website is mw.academicsuperstore.com BTW.)

Look at these prices: 
 Dreamweaver MX for $94
 Flash for the same
 Illustrator 10 for "77% off"
 Bryce 5 for $49!
 Lightwave for $395!
 Office for 60% off!

So don't say there's no way to afford any of these.


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