# do you sleep?



## habilis (Jun 6, 2003)

Ever since my daughter was born almost 3 years ago, I get about 5 average hours of sleep a night. There's just too many cool things to do, and not enough hours in a day. It's all because of our stupid solar orbit that a day is only 24 hours. If it was up to me, a day would be 28.


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## Vard (Jun 6, 2003)

Habilis...

I have often said that I wish the days were 40 hours long and we had 10 days in a week.

For future posters to this thread....I know, I know, Hab's and mine little dream of longer days wouldn't work cause life would be structured around the longer day and we'd still only be getting 5 hours of sleep....This is our dreams, and in them, we make the social and cultural impacts of extended days just the way we like em!  ;P

Hab, I am beginning to understand the daughter thing.  Mine will be 5 months old in 3 days....that, with the business my wife owns and my day job, there really isn't enough time.

I picked 5 for an average.

Eddie


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## toast (Jun 6, 2003)

I sleep average 3 hours per night. I try to get between 3 hours and 6 hours, as my personal sleep cycles are multiples of 3.

Reasons:
- Studies
- Parties
- Reading
- Anything else, sleeping is just so much a waste of time. A French actor once said 'I slept the first 11 years of my life, now I try to catch up all this time I have lost'. I agree 

BTW posts and AIM conversations I had with some members can prove my sleep time.


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## dlloyd (Jun 6, 2003)

I think I get an average of about 8-9 hours a night.


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## Ugg (Jun 6, 2003)

Anything less than 6 and I'm dead, anything more than 8, I'm a zombie.


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## Giaguara (Jun 6, 2003)

sometimes 2 hours / night, or 15 in a week.  for weeks.

and sometimes 10-12 hours per night. the same.


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## Androo (Jun 6, 2003)

friday and saturday nights i stay up late, but then i sleep for 9 hours until Noon. On sundays i rarely sleep, i get about 5 hours. Weeknites i get 8-10 hours.


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## Arden (Jun 6, 2003)

I usually get between 4 and 7 hours of sleep at night.  I often stay up late messing around on the computer (hehe, Starcraft is so addictive in multiplayer!).


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## Giaguara (Jun 6, 2003)

am i the only one who can stay more or less ok with 2-3 hours of sleep for weeks, and then suddenly switch to like 12 hours? i think most people more or less need the same amount of sleep so e.g. 5-6 but always, or 9-10 but always, and not changing so radically. hm. nnow 8-10 or 10-12 .. or then 4-5 if my body just hurts (so i can't sleep). i can't decide what to vote.


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## dlloyd (Jun 6, 2003)

That just wouldn't agree with me, Giaguara


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## wdw_ (Jun 6, 2003)

I usually fall asleep around 4AM and (if uninterupted) wake up at 2PM. hmm, so lets see...uh...carry the one...um... 10 hours. usually I'm woken up before I can get a good 10 hours of sleep in. My favorite way of waking up is waking up naturally and then laying in bed until I actually want to get up. 

PS. Am I the only one who hates that Apple smile?


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## habilis (Jun 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arden _
> I often stay up late messing around on the computer (hehe, Starcraft is so addictive in multiplayer!).


Yeah I can relate to the multiplayer gaming addiction. Since I bought Medal of Honor: Allied Assault, my weekend sleep levels have dropped to almost zero, and if I actually do sleep, I have dreams of the game.

I wish I could have normal dreams, like being stuck on a dessert island with Playboy ladies, but instead it's a rainy day in 1942 and I'm deep in German territory, firing on Nazi's from my sniping position in a bombed out church in Cherbourg, and the action is INTENSE.


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## Cat (Jun 6, 2003)

8 hours at most. I try to make the other 16 really count!  But also often less than that for parties, reading, games etc.

Giaguara: I have done so for a long, long time, but regualr sleep cycles are in fact healthier for body and mind. I often enough skipped entire nights without any problem and without needing to catch up. It demolishes your body slowly but steadily. ... and then when you get a partner you need to sync cycles somehow


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## Giaguara (Jun 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Cat _
> *... and then when you get a partner you need to sync cycles somehow   *



yea i know. i am definitelly better sync'ed in US (and not in EST either) simply because my hours were so weird in europe. i call it PST- syndrome. i.e. when your internal clock is synced to cupertino time ...  (well pst or cdt, whichever)...


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## chemistry_geek (Jun 6, 2003)

The average amount of sleep one needs to remain healthy is 7-9 hours of consistent, unfragmented sleep.  When I was an undergraduate college student, I worked as a Sleep Disorders Technician for 5 years to finance my college education.

If you want to learn more about sleep, check out these books:

Principles and Practice of Sleep Medicine
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...f=sr_1_1/102-3012465-6993717?v=glance&s=books

Principles and Practice of Sleep Medicine in the Child
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...f=sr_1_2/102-3012465-6993717?v=glance&s=books

Treating Sleep Disorders: Principles and Practice of Behavioral Sleep Medicine
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...f=sr_1_3/102-3012465-6993717?v=glance&s=books

It's very important to get the same consistent sleep (same time of the night, no staying up late one night, then going to bed earlier another night), unfragmented sleep.  You'll live longer, feel better, and function better through out the day.

Your circadian rhythms are governeed by several feedback mechanisms.  It's important to be exposed to natural sunlight to produce meletonin, a hormone critical for good restful sleep.  Fluorescent lighting will not stimulate the production of meletonin (bummer for people "inside" all the time).  During the first 4 hours of sleep, neurotransmitters and much protein synthesis are taking place (delta sleep).  The latter four hours of sleep have increased REM (dreaming) that is important for learning and problem solving.

Not getting the proper amount and QUALITY of sleep will shorten your life time.  When you don't get good consistent sleep, you're straining the brain and body, causing irreversible damage.  Though it's not much, cummulatively it takes it's effect.  This is why working night shifts, or rotating shift work shortens the life time 5 to 10 years.

Well, read up and enjoy.


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## habilis (Jun 6, 2003)

During the height of the Enron scandal Ken Lay was asked by a reporter(I don't remember who, maybe Dianne Sawer) "How do you sleep at night?" He replied "I sleep like a baby  I wake up every 2 hours crying". I thought that was an awesome quote.


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## JohnnyV (Jun 6, 2003)

I get insomia every few months and it puts a damper on my sleep


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## hulkaros (Jun 6, 2003)

I answered 5 hours but that is the normal scenario... Most of the time, at least once or twice in 15 days I do not sleep at all for at least 48 hours... Like yesterday and today 

Also, other times I sleep for 4 hours or less... And yes, I'm talking about the sum of my sleeping hours...  

Because sometimes I sleep for 2 or 3 hours at night and then 1 or 2 hours during the day when and if I can


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## Arden (Jun 6, 2003)

G: I can sleep for 4 hours one night, then sleep 10-12 the next.

The average adolescent needs more sleep than the average adult, usually around 10 hours.  Ironically, we often get much less than the average adult.


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## chevy (Jun 6, 2003)

When I'm on steroid (image, just because too many projects, or travel) then 3 is the minimum, but I have my highest efficiency and creativity with 8.


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## habilis (Jun 6, 2003)

chemistry geek: yeah maybe it's not so healthy to stay up late, but look at the bright side; we might die 5 years earlier, but we lived 10 years extra by not sleeping so much, and we lived it during the best, most productive years of our lives.

On balance I'd say you're absolutely right; without quality sleep, we may not be as productive as we think...


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## mr. k (Jun 6, 2003)

i wish sleep didn't take up so much time...
i could do so much more if i never had to sleep! i want one of those masks that the villan in die another day had, he only had to sleep one hour every day...
that would be tight!


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## habilis (Jun 6, 2003)

mr.k  the link to your site is dead as a doornail. that's not nice


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## mr. k (Jun 6, 2003)

hah i am having trouble with my router... i can get it to forward some ports, but for some reason it won't forward port 80 for http...  i should just take out the link


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## Darkshadow (Jun 6, 2003)

Hmm...ok chemistry geek...as the resident sleep tech D), what's your take on my situation here?

I start getting tired at 8 AM.  I usually go to sleep at 10 AM.  I actuallly have a hard time staying up past that point.  I sleep 6 hours everyday.  I don't use an alarm clock to wake up, I just wake up right around 4 PM.  Every once in  a while I'll sleep till 5 PM, but not very often.  This is unbroken sleep, _lots_ of dreams.

This has _always_ been my preferred sleeping time.  If I have to be awake during the day, and thus have to sleep during the night, I don't feel very rested at all.  Even if I keep to that schedule, like I had to when I was going to school, I don't ever get "used" to it, and tend to oversleep massively on the weekends (12+ hours) - compensation for not having had a good sleep during the week, in my opinion.  In those cases, I also revert to my "normal" schedule on my days off - up at night, sleep at day.

I do not go out into the sun often.  My main reason is because it hurts my eyes (very light sensitive; even with sunglasses, bright light hurts my eyes).  I'd say, then, that I have a pretty low meletonin count.  But I still sleep soundly!


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## Darkshadow (Jun 6, 2003)

Habilis - that graphic is aesthetically _un_pleasing.  Hurts the eyes to look at it...it's too squeezed, makes you feel like you're squinting or looking at it from the wrong angle.


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## toast (Jun 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arden _
> *The average adolescent needs more sleep than the average adult, usually around 10 hours.*



Are you sure ?
I know that, at some point, the adult is less resistant than the adolescent. Depends what you call an adolescent. For my own, I know I'm more resistant (19 yrs old) than my teachers (even the younger ones: 30 yrs-old) are !



> _Originally posted by habilis _
> * On balance I'd say you're absolutely right; without quality sleep, we may not be as productive as we think...*



Depends what's your own productivity. Creativity decreases, you're 100% right; intellectual work also suffers a bit, depending on how much you lack sleep. But overall, my general productivity increases, why ? Simply coz I have some more time, that's all  

If you haven't (not habilis, I'm sure you have, other people), try this: on your next paper, try to work 12 more hours (ie. do NOT stop working the night before you have to hand it in). Oh, now you see what I mean: even though less productive, you can do many many things during one night...

Plus, what I love at night is, silence. Concentration. I spend all day with my girlfriend, all day, and most nights . But twice a week, I simply don't sleep and read, write, study, and I can tell from experience my marks and teachers like this rhythm ! Even though I'm conscient I can't build my life on such a rhythm. You only live once, 19 years-old is a fine age to live this way in my very humble opinion ...

BTW, it's 3:51AM in France


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## Arden (Jun 6, 2003)

19:00 here in California...

I'm quite sure about that figure, Toast.  Well, I'm not positive that it's 10 hours, but it's something like that... we need more sleep than adults.  I find that, especially when I stay up late, doing certain things (reading, this) tend to put me to sleep for a little while.  I may sleep 4 hours at night, then make up for it with a 2 hour nap during the day.

I've heard it said that if it takes you less than 15 minutes to go to sleep, you're not getting enough of it.  I believe every word.  I used to have a hard time falling asleep, before high school and all.  Now I stay up late and I go out within 2 minutes or so.


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## wiz (Jun 6, 2003)

eh! 
if u dream ur not having a GREAT sleep.
But if u don't dream, and wake up the next morning, completely *fresh*, wow you slept!!


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## toast (Jun 6, 2003)

I do believe every word of this last post of your, arden. Very very true that the only times I fail falling asleep in less than 15 minutes or so is when I have slept enough the nights before !


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## Darkshadow (Jun 7, 2003)

It's actually true, toast, the older you get, the less sleep you actually need.  It doesn't decrease dramatically or anything like that, but it does decrease.


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## toast (Jun 7, 2003)

You're right, that was an illusion of mine.
I also read that only a few people are able to go under 6 hours of regular sleep.


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## Giaguara (Jun 7, 2003)

when i was like 12, i slept normally about 2 hours per night, and was not tired. i was just overactive and insomniac.

now i sleep like a baby .. wake every 2 hours screaming. or wake up at elast 3 times when i sleep .. this night i slept nearly 12 hours, so my sleep is sure not getting less by the time i get older (well, a couple of years ago i was a couple of months again with that 2-4 hours sleep).


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## chemistry_geek (Jun 7, 2003)

Quality of sleep decreases with age.  As you age, the amount of slow wave sleep, or delta sleep (low frequency high amplitude 0.5 to 3 Hz) decreases.  This is why your grandma wakes up at 4:00AM and is up for the day, but doesn't feel as well rested.  The amount of REM sleep seems to be consistent throught your lifetime, and is very essential for learning and problem solving.  Sometimes, the delta sleep diminishes completely and the deepest sleep reached in the night is stage 2, characterized by Sleep Spindles and K-Complexes (EEG waves).  A K-Complex is the brain's response to external stimuli (i.e., a sound, a sensation, low oxygen saturation in the blood, sudden bright light, etc...).  It basically places the brain in a lighter stage of sleep or to waking, and if not to waking, then a sleep spindle immediately follows that puts the brain into a deeper sleep stage.  If a K-Complex happens and you don't wake up, a Sleep Spindle will almost always follow.  Getting back to the delta sleep, this is the really deep sleep where all the neurotransmitters are replenished that helps you feel good when you wake up.  Getting too much sleep can make you very tired throughout the day, so if you wake in the morning and have slept your normal sleep time, don't go back to bed and catch a few more dreams, and that's exactly what will happen, boo-coo REM sleep.  The result: you wake up and feel REALLY tired and groggy, and it doesn't wear-off well.

For the people who don't get the proper sleep during the week and sleep-in on the weekends, i.e. 2 to 6 hours a night during the week, then 12 hours on the weekends, you are making up for the sleep you lost.  A good analogy is like borrowing money from a bank, you eventually have to pay it back.  Same goes for sleep, you will make it up when given the chance, and the quality of sleep will usually be rather intense, massive delta wave sleep and intense REM dreaming sleep.  It's almost equivalent to sleep like a rock, not much in your immediate environment is going to stimulate you to wakefullness.

Since there is much protein synthesis occuring in the brain and body at night, it can help to take vitamins with your latest meal.

The best way to get the healthiest most restful sleep is to live a well-balance life, eat your vegetables (lots of green leafy stuff), get plenty of excercise (stimulates blood flow to the brain), minimize the stresses in your life, and you should do pretty well.


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## chemistry_geek (Jun 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Darkshadow _
> *Hmm...ok chemistry geek...as the resident sleep tech D), what's your take on my situation here?
> 
> I start getting tired at 8 AM.  I usually go to sleep at 10 AM.  I actuallly have a hard time staying up past that point.  I sleep 6 hours everyday.  I don't use an alarm clock to wake up, I just wake up right around 4 PM.  Every once in  a while I'll sleep till 5 PM, but not very often.  This is unbroken sleep, lots of dreams.
> ...



OK, I know this scenario because when I was a sleep tech, *THIS* is what happened to me.  Humans were never intended to be nocturnal, your entire brain chemistry gets messed up when you work nights, and the brain does the best it can to deal with that stress and environment.  If you are dreaming A LOT, then you have fragmented sleep.  The brain is also designed NOT to remember most dreams.  If you recall dreaming a lot, then your sleep is very likely fragmented.  You are not getting the proper delta sleep, and when the brain doesn't get the proper delta sleep, it compensates with REM sleep.  I can't remember all the particulars right now, but it's bascially a situation like "If the brain can't get the delta sleep it needs, it'll substitute it for another kind and work with the sleep structure that's available".  Keep in mind that this is not healthy, you could be setting yourself up for clinical depression (70% of cases involving clinical depression have disrupted/fragmented sleep structure).

There's more I can tell you, but not in a public forum.


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## habilis (Jun 7, 2003)

chem, as an experiment I'm going to take a hint from you and see what happens when I get 8 solid hours of sleep every night for a week and see if I feel any different, any more creative. It's been at least 12 years since I was getting that much sleep, so it's worth a shot. The hardest part is going to be *forcing* myself to go to bed on time and miss out on *fun stuff*.


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## Giaguara (Jun 7, 2003)

up till march i used to go to sleep around 6-7am and wake up in hte afternoon. now at least more normal hours ...  but sleeping more. and of good sleep. i notice improvements in my dreams an visualization mode when i stay as far of a tv as i can. so if i dream, the equivalent for many people would be nombly watching tv.


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## Arden (Jun 8, 2003)

Actually, I don't sleep.  I am like an android; I don't need sleep. 

Chem Geek (CG!):  Thank you so much for that information.  I know what the stages of sleep are, but your first post was very helpful.  I hope you don't mind, but I saved it to a text file.

Would you mind messaging me some of the "private" information hinted at in your second post?


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## Arden (Jun 8, 2003)

On an unrelated topic, does anyone know what eating too many cherries can do to one's body?


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## Darkshadow (Jun 8, 2003)

Feel free to email me more if you want to, chemistry.

I'd just like to say that my brain chemistry is _already_ messed up.   Umm...I posted about that in the thread about drugs...I know you posted some there, but I dunno if you ever read my post.

I've _always_ dreamed a lot, and I remember most of my dreams.  That's nothing new for me.  And I really do have trouble keeping to a daylight schedule.  That has always been the case for me, too.  School was a terrible pain in the ass because of it.


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## Jason (Jun 8, 2003)

i sleep between 4 and 6 hours a night

about 2-4am wake up at 8 am

work 7 days a week... feel like im dying slowly...


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## toast (Jun 9, 2003)

But in fact you're dying at a quick pace. I am the other one who voted '4 or less'.


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## chemistry_geek (Jun 9, 2003)

Almost forgot to mention some other things that are essential for good sleep.

If you sleep at night, i.e. go to bed around 9:00PM or 11:00PM, stop ingesting stimulants like CAFFEINE around 2:00PM to 3:00PM.  In fact, don't eat a large meal right before bed.  It takes approximately 5 to 6 hours for the body to metabolize it and remove it from your system.  So don't be drinking coffee, Mountain Dew, Jolt, Coca Cola, Pepsi, etc... AFTER 3:00PM.  Also, don't drink alcoholic beverages (or NyQuil).  These will disrupt your sleep structure, you won't get as much delta sleep, but you'll get more stage 2 sleep that isn't optimal.

If you live in the city near a busy road and hear traffic and see blinking lights from obnoxious advertising signs, get ear plugs and room darkening shades.  Ear plugs basically come in two varieties:  soft waxy substance (good, in my opinion) and soft spongy kind (OK, but they will eventually irritate the lining of your ear canal).  Noise will affect your sleep considerably.  Some people say "they get used to it".  Believe me, you don't get used to it.  Noise causes K-complexes, which lead to lighter stages of sleep or even wakefullness (groggy none the less) and you may not even remember waking from the noise, but it will fragment your sleep.  The brain is also stimulated by light.  Inside your head, the optic nerves from each eye criss-cross (optic chiasm).  Just above this area is a section of the brain that "senses" the electrical stimulation and says "oh, I sense light, it's time to be awake" even though you may be trying to go to sleep.  Hence, make your sleeping environment as quiet and dark as possible.  Also, when you sleep at night, try to make the room cooler by 5 to 10 degrees Fahrenheit.  Your body normally decreases temperature at night with the lowest temperatures occurring between 4:00AM and 5:30AM.  If you do all these things, you will SLEEP LIKE A ROCK and feel wonderful in the morning, recharged, full of energy, assuming there are no other underlying problems (ie overweight with obstructive sleep apnea or central nervous system damage that may contribute to central sleep apnea (remember the "Drugs" thread and my spat about brain damage?)).

I'll get around to contacting the people privately who asked me to explain more, in the next day or two.  I'm a really busy guy these days.


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## chemistry_geek (Jun 9, 2003)

This is where I used to work in Sleep Disorders (Neurodiagnostic Services, an off-shoot of the Neurology Department):

http://www.mco.edu/

I don't know if sleep studies are still conducted there, the healthcare industry is very cyclical; it gets built-up and taken down, capital equipment is bought, used, and sold to the highest bidder (3rd world countries).  It's very much a "big business".


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## habilis (Jun 9, 2003)

chem:
I have a little tabletop fan in my 3 year old daughters bedroom that runs all night to diffuse the louder sounds of the TV or music and active parts of the house. Is that a bad idea?

I also have the same fan going in my bedroom because I like the soft white sound it makes and helps me fall asleep faster.

What about falling asleep to music as I sometimes do?


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## chemistry_geek (Jun 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by habilis _
> *chem:
> I have a little tabletop fan in my 3 year old daughters bedroom that runs all night to diffuse the louder sounds of the TV or music and active parts of the house. Is that a bad idea?
> 
> ...



Yeah, I think it's a bad idea to run a fan in your 3 year old daughter's bedroom all night long to diffuse the sounds in the active parts of the house.  Little children are a lot different from adults with regard to sleep structure.  They get massive amounts of delta sleep (mostly stage 4); they're less likely to wake from delta sleep than an adult.  Their bodies are growing, everything is young and new.  What I would do if I had a little child is try to go to bed near the same time that s/he does, or get ear phones to listen to music.  Use the fan only if you must, it can help, but any noise will affect your sleep.  If you can, shut the bedroom door, that way sound and light (from the TV or hallway) is minimized.  Get one of those one-way walkie-talkies (baby/child monitoring device) to hear if your daughter wakes and needs you.

Another thing to consider too, and I don't know the effect of this either, but your brain can get fatigued from too much sound, or over loaded.  The neurons get fatigued from processing the same frequency of sound.  This can lead to stress (mild).  I do know that that also happens in the visual cortex.  Stare at something for 5 minutes then look away, you will see a ghost image of the object you were looking at.  This is caused by the neurons in the visual cortex repeatedly processing the same "signal" and being fatigued.  Eventually, your brain (all the different systems) get fatigued and you need to sleep.

Falling asleep to music can be relaxing and comforting (a psychological factor), but once you're asleep, the brain still processes sounds, sensations, and light stimulation (a neurological factor) that can lead to lighter stages of sleep, sometimes those stimuli get incorporated into dreams.  Try for a week turning down the music to where it's barely perceptable but still enjoyable and see how you do, then try falling asleep without it and see how you do.  I don't know how you'd respond, but you can be the judge of that.  My mother falls asleep with the TV or radio blaring in her room.  If if gets turned-off, she wakes up.  Strange, I know.

Regarding children, the first three years of their lives, ie, intellectual development, is influenced greatly by intellectual stimulation, family dynamics, and social interaction.  This weighs very heavily on future mental development and influences a great deal the rest of their lives.  These first three years are the formative years, what happens then influences what happens later.  Just keep that in mind.

While working those night shifts, I not only did my assigned duties, but I also read a great deal about neuropsychology and journal articles about studies conducted regarding "modern life style" and its effects on individuals (populations).  There is a right way to live and a wrong way to live, and getting the proper sleep will help you live a better life.


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## habilis (Jun 10, 2003)

chem: thanks a lot for that info. It was funny though, last night when we put Rachel(my daughter) to bed she totally noticed that the fan was off and she told me I had to turn it on, lol, so I ended up having to tell her a simplified version the story of why we should turn it off. She wasn't at all thrilled about the idea so I had to bribe her with a visit to the petstore(kid heaven). Anyway, it worked, and suprisingly she slept without waking. I thought for sure she was addicted to the white noise.


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## JohnnyV (Jun 11, 2003)

I had a bad night sleep last night.  Slept for about two hours and was awakened by thunder.  It was very hot and humid in my room and I couldn't get back to sleep.  I laid there for about 30 minutes then went to the basement where it is nice and cool.  Finally fell asleep again about 7 am and woke up about 10:30.

Not that you care.....


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## binaryDigit (Jun 11, 2003)

I used to get about 4-6 hours, but then my son was born (also have a daughter) and I had even less time to get stuff done.  For a long time (about 2 years) it was 2-4 hours, but I find that I have a harder time staying awake now, so I'm settling back to 4-5 hours.  

If I get more than 5-6 hours of sleep, I ALWAYS feel like crap the next day.  I feel more sleepy than if I got 4 hours.  I also can't take naps, I always feel terrible after waking from a nap, which really sucks if you're really tired.  Luckily I almost never have time to actually take a nap, so it's not usually an issue.

Funny thing is that I can only remember once in my life that I awoke from sleeping and thought "MAN, I FEEL GREAT!!!".  It was about 15 years ago and I can remember it vividly to this day, as it was such a weird feeling.



> _Originally posted by habilis _
> *chem:
> I have a little tabletop fan in my 3 year old daughters bedroom that runs all night to diffuse the louder sounds of the TV or music and active parts of the house. Is that a bad idea?
> 
> ...



We have a pair of HEPA filters in our kids rooms.  They are great because they produce that white noise that's good at masking other noises (that and it helps keep the dust down in the rooms).  I did a little research on the whole issue of white noise and sleeping and just like everything else in life, opinions are mixed.  On the one hand it turns out that one of the therapies used for people with hearing problems is exactly that, to have them sleep with white noise.  But then there are others that say continued exposure can be bad.  Then there are others who say that masking "normal" noises makes it harder for the kids to adjust to sleeping in a "normal" setting (i.e. sans white noise), though my kids seem to do just fine either way.  My daughter just got her hearing checked and everything was perfect.  We recently (about 2 months ago) stopped using the filter in our daughters room.  We only turn it on if we know there is going to be some extra noise going on (watching an "action flick", or having friends over) and it works great for that.  Our son still has his on all the time though, but we'll probably start cutting back soon.  BTW, the whole reason for getting the filters in the first place was because they both had pretty bad allergies.  Our daughter is much better now and our son improving, so that is the primary reason we're cutting back on running the filters (i.e. it's not noise related).


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## habilis (Jun 11, 2003)

Yeah, I have the same No-Nap curse. I feel like absolute hell for like 3 hours if I take a nap. 5minutes, 1 hour, or 2 hours produces the same ultra-grogged out experience. I's almost impossible for me tot take a nap in the first place, I'm not good at it, and in the second place I don't have the time, so it works out anyway.


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## chemistry_geek (Jun 11, 2003)

Well, this ultra-grogged-out feeling you guys are talking about is from REM sleep, and I mentioned this a little earlier in this thread.  It's part of the side effects of the neurotransmitters and other things released in the brain during REM.  Sleep is like a chemical titration, you want to reach the end point, but go no further.  Go any further and you over shoot the end point and you feel like crap for hours, and no amount of JOLT cola, coffee, or any other stimulant is going to diminish it any sooner.


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## binaryDigit (Jun 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chemistry_geek _
> *Well, this ultra-grogged-out feeling you guys are talking about is from REM sleep, and I mentioned this a little earlier in this thread.  It's part of the side effects of the neurotransmitters and other things released in the brain during REM.  Sleep is like a chemical titration, you want to reach the end point, but go no further.  Go any further and you over shoot the end point and you feel like crap for hours, and no amount of JOLT cola, coffee, or any other stimulant is going to diminish it any sooner. *



The only problem is that wrt naps, it doesn't matter if I sleep for 15 minutes or 4 hours, I still feel like crap (just like Habilis).  Now that makes more sense for night sleeping, as I've felt the effects of oversleep many times before, and though mentally tougher to overcome, undersleeping is much preferred.  Thing is, I've basically have had this sleep pattern for literally as long as I can remember (we're talking early grade school).  I have no doubts that it's not "natural" and I'm sure I'm going to pay the price, but after around 9:00pm or so, I always get this second wind and feel better from 9pm-2am then I do from noon-5pm (which doesn't do much for my work, but is nice for my own projects  ).

Maybe Habilis and I can check ourselves into a sleep clinic so they can do some research


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## habilis (Jun 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by binaryDigit _
> ...after around 9:00pm or so, I always get this second wind and feel better from 9pm-2am then I do from noon-5pm (which doesn't do much for my work, but is nice for my own projects...


Ahh, yes the infamous nocturnal second wind. I get this same second wind just a little after I put my daughter to bed around 8:30pm. Like you and toast I also find my most creative and productive time is at night, after everyone's asleep so I can concentrate.

On a related issue, I was trying to get 8hrs a night this week as an experiment to see if it makes me feel any better but I have failed miserably to get 8 hrs. 6 has been the norm. I'll have to try again next week.


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## chemistry_geek (Jun 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by binaryDigit _
> *The only problem is that wrt naps, it doesn't matter if I sleep for 15 minutes or 4 hours, I still feel like crap (just like Habilis).  Now that makes more sense for night sleeping, as I've felt the effects of oversleep many times before, and though mentally tougher to overcome, undersleeping is much preferred.  Thing is, I've basically have had this sleep pattern for literally as long as I can remember (we're talking early grade school).  I have no doubts that it's not "natural" and I'm sure I'm going to pay the price, but after around 9:00pm or so, I always get this second wind and feel better from 9pm-2am then I do from noon-5pm (which doesn't do much for my work, but is nice for my own projects  ).
> 
> Maybe Habilis and I can check ourselves into a sleep clinic so they can do some research  *



Most people who take cat naps in the day time are clinically sleep deprived.  This can be verified by an MSLT (Multiple Sleep Latency Test).  If you have early REM onset during the MSLT 20 minute time period, then you are sleep deprived.  MSLTs are scheduled in 2 hour intervals for 20 minutes four times during the day.  Most people who have cronic sleep deprivation will enter REM sleep when given the chance to sleep.  This is why you mostly feel just aweful after that nap, too much REM sleep and not enough of the restorative delta sleep.  The brain will substitute one form of sleep for another.


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## binaryDigit (Jun 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chemistry_geek _
> *Most people who take cat naps in the day time are clinically sleep deprived.  This can be verified by an MSLT (Multiple Sleep Latency Test).  If you have early REM onset during the MSLT 20 minute time period, then you are sleep deprived.  MSLTs are scheduled in 2 hour intervals for 20 minutes four times during the day.  Most people who have cronic sleep deprivation will enter REM sleep when given the chance to sleep.  This is why you mostly feel just aweful after that nap, too much REM sleep and not enough of the restorative delta sleep.  The brain will substitute one form of sleep for another. *



Hmmm, you seem to be knowledgable in the ways of sleep.  A question.  As stated before, if I get "too much" sleep, I feel like crap.  So how does one try to get oneself back into a "good" pattern.  Any more sleep than what I currently get yields negative results.  Do you just suffer through this period as your body/brain adapts?  Perhaps even though I'm sleeping longer, it's still not long enough and I need to just sleep even longer?  It seems like this might be a classic "things just have to get worse before they can get better"/"bitter medicine" kinda deals?


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## chemistry_geek (Jun 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by binaryDigit _
> *Hmmm, you seem to be knowledgable in the ways of sleep.  A question.  As stated before, if I get "too much" sleep, I feel like crap.  So how does one try to get oneself back into a "good" pattern.  Any more sleep than what I currently get yields negative results.  Do you just suffer through this period as your body/brain adapts?  Perhaps even though I'm sleeping longer, it's still not long enough and I need to just sleep even longer?  It seems like this might be a classic "things just have to get worse before they can get better"/"bitter medicine" kinda deals? *



Please read some of my earlier posts in the thread.  To get back on a good sleep pattern:

1.  Try to make your sleeping environment as comfortable as possible.  This includes making the room as dark and quiet as possible.  Try lowering the termperature in the room to approximately 60 to 65 degrees Fahrenheit.  If you need ear plugs to get the optimal quietness, try the soft waxy ones (don't role them into a thin loaf and insert them into the ear canal, they break-off and can get stuck inside your ear - I speak from experience).  Get room darkening shades if necessary.

2.  Make the bed as comfortable as possible.  I sleep on cotton flannel sheets, a down featherbed, goose and down pillows, and down comforter year around, no matter what the weather is.  If want to explore this route, just remember, you get what you pay for.

3.  Go to sleep around 9:00 to 10:00PM depending on when you have to wake for school or work.  Plan on sleeping 8 solid hours, so schedule your daytime events accordingly.  No heavy exercise in the evening.  Plan the evening towards "winding down".  No playing Quake3Arena or Unreal Tournament.

4.  Don't eat large full meals for two to three hours before bed.  If you need a snack, make it quick and simple.

5.  When you go to bed, try not to think about the day's events if they were stressful.  Try to reduce your stress if you experience any.  If you need to watch TV or read a book before bed, then do it for about 30 minutes.  When you first get sleepy, turn everything off (lights/tv/radio) and go to sleep.  Don't forget to set your alarm clock if you need one.

Melatonin is an over the counter supplement available at healthfood stores.  It is a naturally occuring hormone that is produced in the brain (builds during the day and peaks just before sleep - helping to make us sleepy), but decreases as we age.  *READ UP and RESEARCH* this before considering taking this, and consult a doctor if you think it's necessary.  I'm not advocating taking melatonin, I'm just explaining available options for improving your sleep.  Melatonin helps to "reset" your biological clock (circadian rhythm).  It is taken 30 minutes before you want to go to bed for the following few days.  So if you want to go to bed at 9:00PM the next few days, take it at 8:30PM.  You should get sleepy around 9:00PM the following night.  Taking this nightly isn't necessarily going to improve your sleep.  You won't sleep any deeper taking melatonin than without.  It's simply used to rest your biological clock.

There is no magic over-the-counter pill that will make you sleep as solidly as a small child.  You have to put some effort into making sure you get the QUALITY and QUANTITY of restful sleep.


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## Arden (Jun 12, 2003)

I've noticed that when I nap, I usually go straight into REM sleep because I often dream.  I usually don't feel like crap, though.  I wonder if maybe I'm catching up on missed REM sleep because I don't nap if I got enough sleep the night before.


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## toast (Jun 12, 2003)

I love REM sleep. Especially Losing my Religion sleep.


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## Darkshadow (Jun 13, 2003)

Oh haha, aren't we witty today? 
(Losing my Religion is a good song though )

chem, could a messed up brain chemistry alter circadian rhythms from what they "should" be?  I'm really serious when I tell you that staying on a day schedule produces the same effects in me that someone trying to stay on a night schedule says they have.

To keep ya from having to dig through the other thread, and to add some to it, my hippocampus is malformed/damaged and has been as long as I've been alive.  Doctor couldn't tell if it was a malformation or if some trauma in the womb caused it, but it doesn't matter overmuch which it is.  Outcome is the same.  That's also not the only part of my brain that isn't quite right, quoting the doctor here: "Your brain is wired screwey."  (Really, that's what he said )

'Course, I'm just asking your opinion on this one, as I'm sure you don't have a whole lot of knowledge on how my weird head may effect sleep patterns.


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## Arden (Jun 15, 2003)

Do you know exactly what the diagnosis is, besides your HC being "screwey?"


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## Darkshadow (Jun 15, 2003)

Not sure what you're asking there, Arden.  Are you asking for specifics on how my hippocampus is messed up, or what?

If it's that - it's slightly misshapen.  I actually don't know all the effects of this.  Plus, like the doc said, my brain is wired funny.  Meaning, I use parts of my brain that most people don't, and don't use parts that other people do.  Doc said I use the "extra" parts to make up for the fact that I don't use the normal parts.  That's paraphrasing there, he didn't say it like that.  Basically, my brain remapped parts so it could function normally.

S'pose I'm lucky, 'cause it doesn't really affect me that badly.  As I wrote in the drug thread, some mild hallucinations is about it.  Well, one other thing that I can think of that I'm pretty sure is related - I'll forget a word every now and then.  I'll be talking, and want to say something, and I can't say it because I've forgotten the word.  I mean totally forgotten here - all associations that go with the word as well.  I can't even _describe_ what I'm trying to say.  It's like there's just a blank spot there where the word used to be.  Luckily it's only temporary - I'll usually remember the word somewhere around 15 minutes or so later.  Usually I blurt it out when I do.


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## chemistry_geek (Jul 16, 2003)

Just found this today.

Hope this is helpful.

*Suggestions for getting a good night's sleep:*

http://channels.netscape.com/ns/news/package.jsp?name=fte/troublesleeping/troublesleeping

http://www.shuteye.com/


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## habilis (Jul 16, 2003)

I've definately found that exercising, in my case jogging 3 or 4 miles through the park during the day, makes sleeping at night very easy. When I don't exercise, my brain is still alert when I lay down.

But the worst destroyer of sleep I've found is when I watch a lot of news before bed or play video games before bed, it just fires up too many neurons when I do that, and I'll lay down and my mind is still in full-alert mode. I don't recommend that.

Like the articles said, reading a book works very very well. The best sleeper books for me are unbiased history or science that's hard to understand. This book I'm reading right now called Beyond Evolution has me to sleep in 5 minutes! I also have my favorite sleeper standby, Naked Lunch by William Burroughs, my favorite author book of all time.


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## Arden (Jul 16, 2003)

Just get a book of the laws of your state or country and try to read that when you go to sleep.

I was going to post this earlier, but I never got around to it.  I went to Summerfest this year in Modesto because the band Lifehouse played.  They were really the main reason I went.  So anyway, I like to stand in front of the stage during concerts like these, and I did with Lifehouse.  Midway through their act, while they were still playing, I swear I started to fall asleep, on my feet, in the middle of the crowd.  I just couldn't keep my eyes open, even though I was still listenin' to the music.  It was really weird.

Also:  Insomnia is not defined by the length of time it takes you to fall asleep, but by the quality of sleep you get.


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## chemistry_geek (Jul 17, 2003)

More links for those interested:

http://netscape.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/jul2003/nf20030711_4474_db035.htm

and on a somewhat related note:

http://forums.compuserve.com/gvforums/default.asp?SRV=womensforum&MSG=688183

Text here:

 There has been controversy over the ability to increase one's IQ. Some researchers say that one's IQ is a product of heredity and thus you are stuck with what you have. Other researchers say that you can do something to increase your intelligence levels.

I decided to search some and see what I could find out on what you can do to increase your IQ. Here is what I found.

1. Diet - Food for the body is fuel for the brain. When poor nutrition was a factor, those involved had lower IQ levels. Eating the right diet, one rich in the B-vitamins, folic acid, beta carotene, and iron, goes a long way to building a better brain. Remember that the brain uses up 30% of the daily calorie intake.

2. Sleep - The brain of a person who doesn't get enough sleep works harder and accomplishes less. Therefore it goes to show that when a person gets the proper amount of sleep, his/her brain functions far better especially when high-level thinking is involved. Lack of sleep reduces one's problem solving abilities.

3. Proper physical exercise - Physical exercise helps increase the blood flow though out the body and that includes the brain. the heart beats stronger. The blood vessels stay open allowing more blood to flow. With increased blood flow, more nutrients and oxygen flow to the brain.

4. Mental Exercises - here we have the old saying, "Use it or lose it." Whether it's doing word puzzles, memorizing scripture, poetry or famous passages, reading challenging books, playing trivia games -- the learning factor as well as the mental exercises can keep your brain sharp. in fact, any activity that has you thinking and concentrating can challenge your brain thus increasing your brain power.

5. Music - We hear about the Mozart Effect and how it affects babies and has the potential to increase their IQ. It could be possible that the same could be applied to adults as well. Some say they learn better when they play music. But could some music work better than others. Who is to say that soft classical music can't stimulate the brain and make thus it more receptive to learning.

Will these 5 suggestions actually increase one's IQ levels? Maybe, maybe not. But these suggestions are also part of a healthy lifestyle. And that cannot be a bad thing for the brain and as a way of helping the brain function at a higher level.


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## Arden (Jul 18, 2003)

Wouldn't these lifestyle changes help you _test_ at a higher IQ level?  I mean, if you're tired and hungry, you aren't thinking as well, but that doesn't mean you're less intelligent than another time.  It just means you can't think as well at that particular moment.


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## bookem (Jul 18, 2003)

I try to get at least 6 hours most nights.  Otherwise I get very irritable.

7 is the perfect amount for me, but that just never seems to happen anymore.


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## chemistry_geek (Jul 18, 2003)

arden,

I tend to agree with your statement too.  But as the scientific community likes to point out, test results indicate certain parameters at the time of testing.  I think this is why they say you can "increase your intelligence".  In reality you aren't increasing your intelligence, you're just increasing the IQ score on a test.  I personally believe that IQ is set and finite from our genetics and development.  The only thing that can increase an IQ score is taking the test under the optimum conditions (healthy lifestyle, well fed, happy and well balanced - things that make you feel good).  I think that everyone has an IQ limit determined by genetics, only your environment will help you reach your full potential (limit).

I only threw in that article about IQ because it mentions sleep and I thought it was relvant to this thread in another context.


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## Trip (Jul 18, 2003)

Hehe, I must be a lucky one. I usually get anywhere from 8 to 13 hours of sleep regularilyerlyirrrrrrr. 

I'm tired.


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