# GUI Suggestions (screenshot)



## bellboy (Oct 12, 2000)

I've been doing a lot of reading people's thoughts on OSX, and it's new interface.  For the most part, I am quite happy with everything that Apple has done, but there are a couple of things that I personally feel should be addressed.  I've begun to address these concerns at the link below.

I'm not totally finished with this (I'm definitely going to make it a bit smaller now that I'm viewing if from my computer at home), and when I'm finished with it I'm going to send this URL to Apple.  What I'd like to do is see if I can address any of your thoughts as well.  

Let me know what you think (so far).

http://www.generated.com/macosx/


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## endian (Oct 13, 2000)

umm... it looks just like 9 with an aqua theme


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## bellboy (Oct 13, 2000)

To some extent, I don't think that apple should change everything for the sake of just changing it.  I love the dock, it's great, but why loose the apple menu?  it doesn't make any sense to me.  They're trying to make the dock do far too much, especially for power users.  As far as I'm concerned, I think they should keep the dock as it is, only make the hidden icon apps slightly more translucent, and keep the apple menu.  If you look at it, the "Go" menu that is on the desktop is basically the apple menu, in a very limited state.  As for the app menu, moving back over to the left allows the user to recognize which program they have running, with either just the icon, or the icon and it's name (just like it is in OS9).  OSX will obviously be more than just OS9 with an "aqua" theme, but I don't think that Apple should change everything that makes them "different".  If you haven't read this article, go and read it.  Some excellent points are made about how the interface should, and shouldn't be.

http://www.arstechnica.com/reviews/4q00/macosx-pb1/macos-x-beta-1.html


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## endian (Oct 13, 2000)

They arent changing things just for the sake of change; with OSX/aqua Apple is 'cleaning out' all the clutter that's built up around MacOS over the past 15 years. And it's about time IMO. The Apple menu is just hideous - too hard to add things to, you cant drop-open files with it, it's stuck in one sort order... in 10 years of using macs about all i've ever used it for is opening control panels. And I should also point out that virtually everything that's been added to the interface since system 7 has actually been shareware control panels that Apple's bought the rights to.

Yes, there needs to be more user control over the dock. Personally I think Apple should allow user-created docks, make them movable to the sides of the screen, and also give the dock tabs, ala dragthing. I gotta do a screenshot of my own one of these days  In any case, remember - the Dock is an application and could easily be replaced with something else. Apple just needs to make API hooks available, which I'm confident they'll do.

There are some huge changes Apple can make to the interface; for example Copland had a feature where you could save searches and attach them to folders, so that you could have, say, a folder that would automatically show every HTML file you've modified in the past 2 days. Basically anything you can search for in sherlock could be automatically shown in a finder window. I'd much prefer Apple work on adding this to OSX. That search field in finder windows that disappeared after DP4 is tantalizing in this respect.

I have read the ars technica article, and he makes some very good points, but notice his criticism is directed toward improving what's already there, not advocating that apple bring back the apple menu/control strip/application switcher/etc. from OS9, which just isn't gonna happen.

In any case, I gotta get back to work. More later if I think of it


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## ajmas (Oct 13, 2000)

One thing that gets me with MacOS X is the use of the desktop, or rather the lack of it. I quite liked the way that everything you needed was available on the desktop, like the drives and wastebasket. Maybe someone will come up with a patch that will allow this functionality to come back?


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## endian (Oct 13, 2000)

you can make aliases to your HD volumes on the desktop, and can set removable drives to show on the desktop in preferences. i also remember reading about some hack to make the trash show on the desktop either on macintouch or macfixit


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## bellboy (Oct 13, 2000)

oh, I definitely agree with all of you points, and don't get me wrong, I definitely don't want to see the application switcher / control strip / apple menu of OS9 ever again.  I guess my main problem is that I feel Apple is putting too much weight on the dock as a "do everything" solution, 'cause I don't think that it will live up to that.  Although I am curious to see how the "community" will hack the system, it should be interesting.


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## wmoss (Oct 13, 2000)

Okay, it looks like you've made the Apple Menu a "drag and drop" target.

How do you add something to the Apple menu?
How do you remove something from the Apple menu?
Is this consistent with the behavior of other menus?

You've move the contents of the old System menu to the far right where the application menu in OS 9 used to be.

Why? It may be "traditional" but it's certainly not easier or quicker to access.

Where does the "Docs" button take you? Is this customizable or is this a fixed folder like Home or Applications?

Why is Internet Explorer greyed out in the dock? Is it non-selectable? It looks like it's running and it has a minimized document in the dock as well. Why can't it be selected?

The function of command keys is pretty severely constrained. In addition to the items in the Application menu, the things in the Apple menu (The 6 folder numbers, go to folder, and connect to server) this pretty quickly eliminates a lot of the command key shortcuts I use in other apps. Why have these be system wide shortcuts?


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## endian (Oct 13, 2000)

ok heres a couple things i whipped up in photoshop:
http://www.mimicry.org/img/sshots/

userdock is a user created dock, set to show names always, sized down to small icon size. the icons would switch sides to always stick to the side of the screen.

dockscreen is a hierarchal extension of the dock - clicking the names in the row along the bottom would replace the dock's contents with whatever was configured under that layer. perhaps dragging a folder down here could add its contents to a new layer.

i think it extends simply but usefully the dock we have now, without going off on tangents about apple menus & popup folders.


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## fmalloy (Oct 13, 2000)

ummm...endian...

What you refer to as "clutter" is the result of years of refinement from usage and feedback from users over 15 years of development. It's like calling ABS brakes, safety glass, and airbags "clutter" that should be eliminated in a newly-designed car.

If there are problems with the Apple menu, fine, add options to sort, use drag-and-drop, etc. The answer isn't to yank it! People love the Apple menu an application switcher, there has been few complaints. To simply remove it in X is an insult.

To paraphrase a real conversation I had with a friend:

Me: Take a look at this new Aqua GUI...

Friend: Where's the Apple menu?

Me: It's gone. But check out this cool new genie effect...

Friend: You mean there's NO APPLE MENU!?!

Me: Yah. But look at the dock - you can do everything in the dock! See how it grows and shrinks?

Friend: But I like the Apple Menu!

Me: And it has full memory protection and pre-emptive multitasking...

Friend: I want my Apple Menu!

...

You get the idea.

We assume that OS X has learned from the Mac OS over the years instead of starting with a clean fresh slate to allow for clean fresh mistakes that were made years ago - all over again.


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## play42day (Oct 13, 2000)

So far i like just about everything. Apple menu... no big loss.
However, I WANT A TRASH CAN THAT STAYS IN ONE PLACE!!!

And a "new window" option in the toolbar would be cool.


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## endian (Oct 13, 2000)

> What you refer to as "clutter" is the result of years of refinement from usage and feedback from users over 15 years of development.



That's precisely what it is not. First of all, if we're talking about a hierarchal apple menu here, that was only added in 1994 with System 7.5, a bit over 5 years ago. Control Strip, WindowShade and the menubar clock were added around the same time. What happened was Apple had basically killed System 7 in anticipation of having Copland ready in 95-96. When it became obvious that wasn't happening, Apple looked around, saw that many users had installed MenuChoice, SuperClock & WindowShade, bought those up, included MacTCP in the standard install & called it 7.5. These utilities didn't exist because they were designed into MacOS as solutions to a particular problem. They were written because it was a fairly easy hack to patch the Menu Manager to display hierarchal menus for folders in Apple Menu Items, stick a clock on the right side of the menu bar, etc.



> It's like calling ABS brakes, safety glass, and airbags "clutter" that should be eliminated in a newly-designed car.


No, it's like saying a finely turned polished brass crank & choke lever should be left off a car with an electric starter & fuel injection.



> We assume that OS X has learned from the Mac OS over the years instead of starting with a clean fresh slate to allow for clean fresh mistakes that were made years ago - all over again.


The conditions that applied for much of the evolution of MacOS - small, b+w screens, no HD, single or cooperative tasking OS, relatively slow hardware - they no longer apply. It's time to start fresh.


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## endian (Oct 13, 2000)

oh i forgot to say, in my userdock screenshot at http://www.mimicry.org/img/sshots/userdock_right.gif the names would be hidden until the user moused over the icons; then the names would all snap out at once. during dock magnification the names would shift over & the translucent area would grow & shrink to accomodate. Docks on the left & right sides would respect the bottom dock's space and not grow down far enough to potentially block it.

and yes, i know the icons are sideways 

[Edited by endian on 10-13-2000 at 06:50 PM]


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## bellboy (Oct 13, 2000)

Let me clarify what I was thinking.....

http://www.generated.com/macosx/

1. THE APPLE MENU

the apple menu is just the "Go" menu.  Plain and simple.  The only difference is that you can drag items into it, and organize them as you want.  This allows you to access all your applications from any program without having to click to the desktop and pressing cmd+4, or going through the "go" menu. (I understand that the dock can do this now, but I don't think it's as flexible.  Hear me out...)  What I had imagined was a similar animation effect as the dock has when you drag an item into it, the icons around it move apart gracefully.  This would be for the "Documents" folder, as well as the "Favorites" folder.  There would also be a simple option in the prefs that would:

a) Mimic the specific sections with appropriate alias in the menu.  Let me explain. If you have 10 applications and 2 folders in your "Applications" folder, there would be 10 application alias' and 2 folder alias' under the menu.  This way you don't have to update it, it does it for you.  It doesn't have to be organized my just name, but also date, or frequency of use.
b) In addition, if you prefer, you could also have it set so there aren't any alias' in the menu at all, and you can drag whichever ones you want up into it.  Dragging is done ala spring loaded folders

As for the other sections, the would all be the same as the "Go" menu is now.

2. THE APPLICATION MENU

I agree that the "Quit" function should be removed and most likely placed under the "File" menu as it is now.  I think that it should be placed on the right, rather then the left is this;

a) It allows you to see what program you are currently using.  The same as OS9.
b) Like this, you are able to use an icon, or and icon and the program name and maintain the location of the main navigation.  The same as OS9.
b) It allows you hide the application, or the others and show all.  The same as OS9.

3. THE TIME

What possible reason would you have for not putting the time in a visible, consistent location, where it is easily read at a glance?  Exactly.  I like the transparent "floating" clock, but only as an option.  I think that it'll get in the way if it's not placed somewhere.

4. THE DOCK

Now I really like the dock, I just think that it's been put in a role to do too much.  I wouldn't do much to it, other than separating the running applications from the alias', and making it visible which are hidden (hence the transparent IE logo).  Additionally, I like what endian proposed in his layout.  Having the ability to have a hierarchy in the dock is a great idea.  I wouldn't mind having that implemented at all.  Additionally, being able to have the dock "docked" (sorry) to either side of the page is a must (although, I wouldn't put the icons sideways).

Basically, I don't believe that Apple has to feel as though they have to start fresh.  The main flaws in the current MacOS have been addressed with the memory, and multi-tasking improvements that are in OSX.  Everything else just has to be "Improved" upon, not removed.


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## endian (Oct 13, 2000)

> although, I wouldn't put the icons sideways


I hope Apple wouldn't either! I only did it 'cause I was too lazy to rotate them all individually, I probably should have said that originally.


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## bellboy (Oct 13, 2000)

Now that I think about it, it might make some sense to put the "apple menu" in right corner, and bring the application menu back to the left.....


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## play42day (Oct 14, 2000)

My 2 Cents can be found at:

http://people.atl.mediaone.net/richardlewis2000/


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## Pascal (Oct 15, 2000)

Hello all !

As for myself, I would like to see the Apple menu back. To those of you that do not like it, I say : fine, don't use it ! But not using it does not mean it is not usable to others. The Apple menu has been my "Start menu" ever since 1991 (thanks to the Now Utilities). Would I lose my start menu, I would be forced to become very unefficient. The Mac OS must remain usable by every one.

I am not allergic to the new application menu, however. I think that the idea of a quit menu under an application-centric menu heading is a refreshing idea. It is so logical, one wonders why it had not been done before ! After all, one does not quit a file, one quits an app. As for the file, one simply closes it.

So I would envision the menu bar like this :

*(Apple icon) (Application icon) File Edit ...*

I would leave the right side of the menu bar empty, save maybe for a clock. Puting something on the right side of the menu bar does not make any sense, especially when one sees the size of today's monitor. (Unless of course they create a _frequent mousing mile_ program.  ) And it would allow for a highly adaptable menu ordering (left-to-right or right-to-left), depending on your language's script.

The dock could become a great switcher : clicking and holding on an application icon should bring a menu of all the windows associated with that app. No more fussing about to identify which iconised view represents the desired window one is looking for.

And, for Pete's sake, remove that centered useless Apple logo ! _That_'s clutter !!!


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## brainchild2b (Oct 15, 2000)

at http://www.generated.com/macosx/

what is the little stock ticker that is running behind the menu? i want it.


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## brainchild2b (Oct 15, 2000)

What are you all talking about? The same function as the apple menu is build right in use the "favorites" not only does it offer better features (it's under app menu) but it is just like apple menu (duh.)


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## endian (Oct 15, 2000)

> what is the little stock ticker that is running behind the menu? i want it.


that's console.app's icon


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## AdmiralAK (Oct 16, 2000)

True there is the favorites menu but its not quite the same.
I did not use the apple menu that much, infact I only used it to go to
the control panels and a few select apps (like DVD player), and I do not have
much of an argument to bring it back <b>BUT</b> the apple menu
has been a staple of the MacOS ever since day one, and even when there was a
MacOS version on the AppleIIgs.
I think that the apple menu can be of greater use to some people than it can with me,
but a MacOS without an Apple menu is kinda weird...
As for the process menu on the left (Where it shows all teh apps that are running)
well that I really don;t want back.  I have the dock for that, and I think the dock does a better job
at it. (and it has all those pwetty little icons too

C'est tout


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## bellboy (Oct 16, 2000)

I've made some changes to the layout.... check it out.

http://www.generated.com/macosx/new_layout2.jpg


Thoughts.

I rearranged the menus at the top, bringing the "apple menu" to the right, and moving the app menu back to the left.  I still think that the "apple menu" should remain, in the form of the current "Go" menu, only with drag and drop features.

I made a small change to the dock.  Basically, I don't think that the dock needs to be changed much from it's current form.  What I think should change though is this; There should be some sort of obvious separation between what apps are running, and which are not.  This is handled by simply having all running app icons on the left of the double line.  On the right of the double line would be any alias you might have placed in the dock.  Now, if you click on one of the alias', the icon would move from the right of the line to the left (using the growing/shrinking animation from when you open/close an app that isn't in the dock already).  You'll notice that there aren't arrows under each app that is running now.  I think that the arrow should only be under the app that you are currently using (in conjunction with the app menu in the top bar).  Additionally, any hidden apps should have their icons more transparent than the others.  All window management should be handled by the specific app that is running, in the "window" menu.


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## endian (Oct 18, 2000)

just a general comment about putting launcher menus, application switcher menus back into OSX...

IMO one of the best things about Aqua is the revised menu layout. The ONLY things in the menu bar right now are the menus belonging to the active application. Under classic MacOS you have the apple menu, the app switcher menu, the menubar clock (which isnt even a menu), plus any menus put there by extensions/control panels. Either the menu bar belongs to the application or it belongs to the system - having parts of it belong to both is not the best way of organizing things.


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## AdmiralAK (Oct 18, 2000)

Very creative 
but the two menu icons seem and feel very awkward...
they dont seem to fit in


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## ajmas (Oct 18, 2000)

Any developers out there? Maybe these idea should be turned into reality, whether Apple wants to act on them or not. Personally, I feel that Apple is thinking more about marketing and less about useability, so the only way to change this is by giving users alternatives and see what they choose.

For me the bin is the wrong place and things that don't stay still annoy me.

[Edited by ajmas on 10-18-2000 at 10:35 AM]


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## endian (Oct 18, 2000)

i've redone the screenshots i have up at http://www.mimicry.org/img/sshots/ to make them look nicer. that's all i have to say right now


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## ajmas (Oct 18, 2000)

I like the looks of the bar. Would the bar be of fixed size, or would it change size? I for one prefer the fixed width approach.


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## Stuart (Oct 20, 2000)

Personally I think that the dock has it's place, but only for newbie users and people who don't use their Macs very often - something like the current launcher. My main problem with the dock is that it takes up too much space, thereby limiting the amount of docs and apps that it can provide access to. And the smaller the icons get the less info they provide, plus it isn't universally accessible.

I would like to see an option to turn it off, and to incorporate it's functionality into the new top-left "application" menu. My idea would be to have two sub-menus under there, one would be labeled "Run..." and would include all your aliases to start apps, and the other would be "Switch to..." and would hold all the apps that are currently running. 

Perhaps the "Switch to..." submenu could also kick out further sub-menus to the windows of the individual documents that that app has open. I don't see the point of adding another menu to the left of the app menu. 

I am not running Mac OS X, (still on 8.6) and I am basing my knowledge of the dock from Apple's website and other places, but I think that either Apple should incorporate these menus, or some 3rd party developer should release a program to do this.


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## rjpcmc (Oct 24, 2000)

OS X is really simple!  I'd like to keep it that way as follows:

Normally you have the Application menu and the Dock.  It would be nice to be able to hide the Dock using a keyboard shortcut or mouse click somewhere on the Dock.  

When the Dock is hidden the menus in the menu bar should slide one to the right in an animated manner.  Then the happy face icon would appear on the left most position in the menu bar.  This happy face menu will include all the items in the Dock.  Docked folders will appear as submenus.  

This means that you have access to your favorite docked applications and folders.  You can also switch between running applications.

In other words, "Turn the Dock into a menu when hidden."

I think this keeps it simple and is just as powerful.  You would be able to see the icons and their names.


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## alephx01 (Feb 20, 2001)

This post is mostly in reply to bellboy's previous post.

First, I like your ideas for the Apple menu.  However, since this is a new interface and all, why not keep it the "Go" menu.  "Go" is much more intuitive than an Apple in the corner.  Go would be available in all apps, where the top portion (i.e. the stable, non-moving portion) would be system-wide links, and a subsection below that links specific to navigating the currently selected application.

Second, I disagree that Quit should be moved to the File menu.  Yes, I'm use to it, and so is everyone else, and yes, I feel "uncomfortable" whenever I automatically open "File" and can't find it there.  However, this level of uncomfortability actually HELPS in that when I do find Quit under the App menu, I absolute know, 100%, that the windows in the named Application are going to go away.  I believe in this case, the location of the Quit menu is a user preference (like click-to-front windows vs. window-to-front-on-hover) that simply just takes getting used to.  That said, the proper place for it is in the App menu.  You don't Quit a file, you close it.  You Quit an App.

Thirdly, the App menu needs to stay in the upper left hand corner along with all the other App-related menus.  Putting it in the upper right signifies to the user that the menus is unrelated to the current application, which is bad.  I don't really have a suggestion for what should go in the upper right, except for maybe the time, and an Application Switcher.

Fourth, "File" should only have the functions regarding the currently selected File.  These would be Close, Clone, Save, Save As, Print, etc.  The current File->New menu item should probably be App->New File.

Finally, all applications on the dock should repeat its respective App menu in a contextual window.  If it is a document, it should repeat the File menu.  Edit should be called "Selection", "Preferences" should be under App, "File Preferences" should be under File (for prefs with File scope only).  There should be a list of open document windows in App.

Whew.

Anyway, my $0.2.  Nothing will probably ever come of my suggestions anyway -- just thought it had to be said 

Mike


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## bellboy (Feb 26, 2001)

I'd just love to see apple, or any other developer, come up with some solutions for the "power user".  If it's these suggestions, or others, it really doesn't matter.  Time will only tell, I can only assume that a lot will change as future release come out.


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## zerorex (Feb 26, 2001)

the butie of X is that the power user can set it up how ever he wants.  There have been a few posts about how to make os X behave like os 9, and though I question why anyone would want to do this, it goes to show that it can be done.  As for getting rid of the dock, if you move it out of the CoreServices folder and restart, it wont start up.  In truth, the same should go for the Desktop.app.  The point is that Apple has done something for the power users.  They have made osX extreamly customizable.  If you dont like the dock, make your own.  By the final release, the interface should be very customizable, and you should be able to manage your work flows how ever you want.  As for the apple menu, the last few builds that have been leaked, (4k46, 4k56, 4k60) have all had the apple menu. 

As for the small details like where the "Quit" button should be, I dont think it really matters, as long as it is in the same place in all apps.  

This really touches on the root of the whole point.  We as users dont get to make decisions about where every menu item should be, or wether the apple menu should be on the left or right, or what color the box should be that os x ships in.  We do get to expect consitancy.  So the real argument here is wether or not OS X should be consistant with os 9, 8, 7, etc.   Concidering that it is a whole new os from the ground up, I dont think it should.  OS X takes a que from NeXTSTEP which is already seen in GNUStep/WindowMaker.  That is a very minimalistic UI.  With os 9, you can have your apps show up in many different places.  They can be in the apple menu, on the desktop, and in the HD.  This is a little redundant.  If you take a little time to get fumilur with the dock, I think you will see that it can actually improve your work flow.  

[Edited by zerorex on 02-26-2001 at 11:29 AM]


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## Pascal (Feb 26, 2001)

Please go on page 2 of this thread and read the comments I had posted on the 15th of October 2000 :

http://www.macosx.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=915&pagenumber=2

My, my ! I feel as if Steve Jobs had read my post !


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## jove (Feb 27, 2001)

Hello,
I just have to say that most of the complaints about X specified in this thread are knee-jerk-reactions. X is a different OS with a different mode of operation. It cannot be the bastardized OS we know and love called MacOS9.

Anyways Apple has addressed many of the listed concerns in the latest builds. Watch the streamed Stevenote.

Jove


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## tie (Feb 28, 2001)

> _Originally posted by zerorex _
> *the butie of X is that the power user can set it up how ever he wants.  ...  The point is that Apple has done something for the power users.  They have made osX extreamly customizable.  If you dont like the dock, make your own.  *



I don't know.  In theory, I guess you can call this "extremely customizable" but what _I_ consider customizable is something that can easily be changed.  Yes I could program my own dock, and I suppose I could even program my own GUI, my own operating system to lie over Apple's kernel.  But I won't.  It would be a lot easier if Apple would just let you move the dock to the right side of the screen (a feature in post-public beta builds which has reportedly now been removed).


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## monty (Feb 28, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Stuart _
> *Personally I think that the dock has it's place, but only for newbie users and people who don't use their Macs very often - something like the current launcher *



umm no. I'm an advanced user, i've been porting unix apps, developing in cocoa etc, and the dock is not simply for beginners. 

I suggest to everyone who doesn't like the dock, force yourself to use it for a couple of days. I hated it at first, after the cuteness of it wore off but a couple of months ago I actually started using it and now OS 9 pisses my off because it _doesn't_ have a dock.

peter


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## boult (Feb 28, 2001)

> _Originally posted by monty _
> *
> 
> 
> ...



Oh you want Dock for OS 9..  there's one called  A-Dock,..  search for it on Versiontracker.com


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## strobe (Mar 3, 2001)

DIE Apple Menu, DIE DIE DIE!!!

Same goes for the Desktop |-p


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## endian (Mar 3, 2001)

the 'Apple menu' is dead. the OSX System Menu just happens to have a similar icon. Although it'd be better on the right, IMO


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## strobe (Mar 3, 2001)

It's be better if it was OPTIONAL

Being able to disable the desktop would be good too. Don't like it when I accidentally drag to the desktop, it ought to reject it like dragging to the menu bar.


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