# Microsoft "Longhorn" Discussion



## CalSD (Oct 21, 2003)

Longhorn delay has Windows users considering OS X 
October 21 - 11:49 EDT __ Microsoft Watch has posted a number of e-mails from readers who say they are considering switching to Mac OS X due to the delay of Longhorn, Microsoft's next major version of Windows. "Apple is already many years ahead in several areas compared to Win XP (Quartz Extreme)," writes PHP programmer Adam Chaney. "And with Panther less then 10 days from release. It will make Apple look even better because they can ship an OS with real reasons to upgrade while MS cannot for three years. Three years is an eternity in computer time. By the time MS gets its act together, people may have gotten tired of banging on MS's door and have gone across the street to the open door with the big sign that reads 'Come on in!, No Worms in this Apple.'"


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## uoba (Oct 21, 2003)

And we'll be using OS X.99999 will holographic desktop etc. by then as well!


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## Reality (Oct 21, 2003)

Wow, what a great week not only for Apple but Apple fans...Awww.


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## applewhore (Oct 22, 2003)

anyone know why the delays have become long?

it's surely not because the code in UNIX / OS X is more difficult to copy than that of previous Mac OSs, is it?!


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## Arden (Oct 22, 2003)

Anybody want to start a running bet on when Microsoft will actually release Longhorn?

I'd say early/mid 2007, at this rate.


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## fbp_ (Oct 22, 2003)

rabid mac zealots are almost as bad as rabid windows zealots


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## applewhore (Oct 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by fbp_ _
> *rabid mac zealots are almost as bad as rabid windows zealots
> *



True, but it's nice to know we've got good reason to be rabid!


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## Arden (Oct 23, 2003)

Mac zealots are usually more civilized and informed, though.  We don't go around saying "PC's suck!  Windows is shit!" but we back up our arguments.

Down with Microsoft!


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## OmegaMan (Oct 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by fbp_ _
> *rabid mac zealots are almost as bad as rabid windows zealots
> *



Yeah, well...atleast us mac zealots have better branded apparel!   

This is one cult I'm proud to belong to!

Na-na-na-na-na-na, Leeeeader!  Leader!


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## hulkaros (Oct 23, 2003)

For those who call us Mac zealots, closed minded, etc. read my signature...


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## applewhore (Oct 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arden _
> *Mac zealots are usually more civilized and informed, though.  We don't go around saying "PC's suck!  Windows is shit!" but we back up our arguments.
> 
> Down with Microsoft!  *



arden - it doesn't matter how you want to rationalise it...  the truth is still there in terms of our fundamental argument against PCs / PC users - which is something like :

"My computer / computing experience (Dad) is better (bigger) than your computer / computing experience (dad)"

And if you'd spent 16 years on "the Dark Side" as I did you wouldn't care how petty it sounded!

PCs do suck - because they run Windows - and Windows always has been a nightmare...


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## tsizKEIK (Oct 23, 2003)

DOWN WITH microsoft n bill gates


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## Dlatu1983 (Oct 23, 2003)

Leader? Who's that, some kind of leader?  -Homer Simpson


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## jackdahi (Oct 23, 2003)

Longhorh will brobably be an ok product! Lets see what MS has up its sleeves!!!!

Apple will be light years ahead..... Oooops, They already are..


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## applewhore (Oct 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jackdahi _
> *Longhorh will brobably be an ok product!
> 
> Love your typo!  (no offence!)
> ...


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## OmegaMan (Oct 23, 2003)

And you know, that the week that Longwhore is relased, they'll be issuing a security patch!  *lol*


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## Veljo (Oct 23, 2003)

Does anyone foresee the return of the legendary blue screen?

"It's not a bug, it's a feature."


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## dlloyd (Oct 23, 2003)

Heh, watch this then:
http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9804/20/gates.comdex/


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## Jason (Oct 25, 2003)

that got someone fired


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## Arden (Oct 25, 2003)

Hehe, I love that video.  You can find it at Mac Comedy, http://www.flamingmailbox.com/maccomedy/.  In the movies section.


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## Giaguara (Oct 26, 2003)

Sorry for linking other boards, but http://funmac.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3259&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

There are pictures of the leaked .. (??) version of alfa (??) of Longhorn. I don't want to copy those pictures and post them here or host those pics anywhere. M$ are normally slow so that thread may be there for a few days before it gets down.

What do you think? A lot looks copied from you know where as always. It does not look invitating, so as I've so far avoided touching an XP, I try not to touch longhorn either after XP.

How does that Longhorn look to you?


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## Jason (Oct 26, 2003)

actually, to be quite honest, i am liking the way those shots look

the previous all blue, that was gross, but this, this is alot better and i have no shame in admitting i like it


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## senne (Oct 26, 2003)

i think it s*cks..


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## chevy (Oct 26, 2003)

Why do you take any conclusion about a pre-beta version of something that will be available on the market in 2005-2006 ? All chances are that the interface will be completly rewritten by the time it is made available, taking advantage of the then current video cards and CPUs.

Comapring a beta with existing software is not useful, and it's not fair, neither for the existing software, nor for the beta.


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## Reality (Oct 26, 2003)

If it wasn't for the longhorn name I could never tell it wasn't XP. Besides that I am relived it's not a clone of OS X


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## Ricky (Oct 26, 2003)

http://www.anim8.biz/files/longhorn.png
I'm finishing this and sending it to them so they can see how much they suck.


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## Pengu (Oct 26, 2003)

Hate to be the one to say it Ricky, but..
I don't get it.
What is it that is supposed to be showing us or them, how much MS sucks?
Sure it looks uber-crap, but it looks like a grey version of the actual thing to me..
Making something grey doesnt prove its crap. Make OSX look all grey and it would be crap too..


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## hulkaros (Oct 27, 2003)

LongHorn is a long way home  for the Wintel/Amd people around here and so far an ugly one 

Back to serious self: I think all those stuff are SO early to judge if they suck or blow but one thing is for sure: By then, Apple will offer us something a lot better than that  



Jason? What do you like there? Of course it may look better than the all blue stuff but still it is uglier than Windows 95 GUI  Shame on you!


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## Pengu (Oct 27, 2003)

The "new" (anything after 2000) windows UIs seam to be like crappy webpages using way too much javascript, squished into a desktop environment...


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## fryke (Oct 27, 2003)

Yep. It's really just a skin slapped onto the Window GUI, which of course costs some processor/graphics card time. But then I guess it's more compatible than really creating a new GUI with new widgets etc. Well, it's not really our problem. Unless they _really_ go Brushed Metal.


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## Jason (Oct 27, 2003)

hulkaros said:
			
		

> Jason? What do you like there? Of course it may look better than the all blue stuff but still it is uglier than Windows 95 GUI  Shame on you!



well lets start with this, first off, the way something looks is a completely subjective matter.

second, this looks many times better than win95, its like saying os8 looks better than panther, and i'm sure you would agree with that.

third, how do you know what apple is going to have by the time longhorn launches, or even better, what the final longhorn is going to look like?

some of the bias around here is astonishing, throw out common sense just to say "mac is good!"

geez people, its an operating system, they do the same thing different ways, they are both getting better over time, and thats a fact.


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## fryke (Oct 27, 2003)

Hmm... Jason: It's not completely subjective. Taste is not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of whether you've got any. 

Without turning this into a subversive discussion about UI-design repeating all the basics that we've talked about every so often... There's a simplicity in both the Win95 UI (used in Win 95, 98, NT 4, Me, 2000) and the Classic Mac OS that the newer iterations (i.e. XPs Fisher Price and Apple's Aqua/NewAqua & Brushed Metal) do not achieve. All the newer UI-designs make use of newer technologies like Alpha Channels etc. (transparency, shadowing). Some do that more efficiently, others less, but they all do to some extent. The question, however, is, whether there ever was a need to do so at all.

I'd personally say that in some places, it made sense. I've gotten used to Aqua's very extensive use of shadows, transparency etc., but it kinda impresses me now when I look at the clarity of a system running, say, Mac OS 8.0.


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## lilbandit (Oct 27, 2003)

Somebody asked at the beginning of this thread about reason why MS are waiting so long till the next release, I think it has something to do with the recent monopoly rulings against them. They aren't free from those until 2005/6 or something. I agree with Jason that some balance of common sense should be maintained but the fact is that MS have been found guilty after an unbelievable legal struggle to prove what everybody knows. Depending on what area you earn a living in, I suppose you could claim that Windows is sh**. My brother is a Java programmer and spends hours cursing XP, I'm a teacher and spend hours cursing XP for constant hassle. I genuinely belive that Windows IS sh**, at least in the area that I have experience with! Sweeping statements like these are dangerous and often ignorant if you don't have direct experience to back it up. I'm sure that there are areas that XP excels in but I must say that my own time spent with it has been difficult to say the least. For the first time ever, the school has had to engage the services of an outside technician to service the 24 computers that we have. They are all within 8 months old and run XP. They cost the school a fortune and are proving difficult to maintain. Nothing exotic is added to them, they are not even networked! They just seem to give more trouble than the teaching staff have time to fix.


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## tsizKEIK (Oct 27, 2003)

im not at all impressed with those pics 


im only sure about thing though:  (actually 2)
the DOCK and Expose are one of the most user-friendly/cool/amazing/fantastic/breath-taking features on an OS and their both on Panther  ta ta ..


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## Pengu (Oct 27, 2003)

Surely the Judge didnt just say "you can't be a monopoly for um.... 4 YEARS!"
That's crazy.


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## hulkaros (Oct 28, 2003)

_Jason:
"some of the bias around here is astonishing, throw out common sense just to say "mac is good!""_

Where you talking to yourself? 

_Jason:
"third, how do you know what apple is going to have by the time longhorn launches, or even better, what the final longhorn is going to look like?"_

As I posted before:
"...I think all those stuff are SO early to judge if they suck or blow..."
Which basically means that I don't know how LongHorn may end up!  

Anyways, I cannot argue with you anymore on this subject because in reality there is no subject to argue about: We are talking about Vaporware here PLUS I am a Mac head strong and you like to believe for yourself that you are open minded and unbiased and this and that but CLEARLY in the majority of your posts you seem to be more of a Wintel/Amd lover


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## cedrikfd (Oct 28, 2003)

Longhorn is for late 2005, early 2006.


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## fryke (Oct 28, 2003)

Or later. No specific date has been chosen. Only the term 'years' instead of 'months' has been used, and a (public?) beta is expected for Summer 2004. MS also urges people to use the PDC (latest) build only on _powerful_ machines, because it's heavily unoptimized code. It's more a technical demonstration than even an alpha version right now.

However much we hate Microsoft, I think they're doing the right thing by taking their time with the next big version of Windows. We all know that it's definitely needed in order to squash enough bugs and bring enough _good_ new features. WinFS, for example, sounds interesting. The look will probably change over time (as it has with Whistler compared to the final version of Windows XP), so we shouldn't debate too much about it just yet.

Even as a Mac head, I must admit that I _hope_ that Longhorn will be a _good_ thing. I also hope that the time until Longhorn will help Apple and Linux to grab some market share, of course, but overall, we're better off as people of the world, if all operating systems are improved over time, aren't we?

I'm still hoping that some day, we'll see statistics that give Windows (all versions) about 50% market share, Linux 20%, Mac OS 20% and 10% of 'others'. Then we could finally talk about easier cross-platform application development and would maybe end up with viable solutions. Right now, a switch between operating systems is much too expensive for me. Only imagining having to buy all those software licenses AGAIN... Most app-developers don't offer cross-platform upgrades, for example. Wouldn't it be great if an Adobe CS license would enable you to use the software on _whatever_ platform you want to work? (Of course you would only be allowed to use it on one at a time...) Now if the apps would run on all of the platforms (including Linux), that would be just dandy. ;-) One can dream...


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## Jason (Oct 28, 2003)

hulkaros said:
			
		

> you like to believe for yourself that you are open minded and unbiased and this and that but CLEARLY in the majority of your posts you seem to be more of a Wintel/Amd lover



Let me do a computer check list here.

Apple Stuff:

800mhz G4
800mhz iBook
iPod
iSight

PC Stuff:

Does Virtual PC count? 

Um yeah, i'm a wintel only lover... seeing how i dont even own one currently


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## senne (Oct 28, 2003)

When a mac user likes the new look of Longhorn or he says something positive about Windows/Microsoft, then he's a Wintel lover? I think that's some stupid thought from a macfreak. "Don't say anything positive about MS, because you aren't 'cool' then!"...


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## fryke (Oct 28, 2003)

Can I like a Microsoft UI and still like an Apple UI better? Or do I have to hate the MS UI? ;-)


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## hulkaros (Oct 28, 2003)

To senne and Jason:
No comment! 

To fryke:
Like the Windows 98-2000 UI, hate the XP and LongHorn UI (so far) and Love the OS X one!


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## citizentony (Oct 28, 2003)

hulkaros said:
			
		

> To senne and Jason:
> No comment!
> 
> To fryke:
> Like the Windows 98-2000 UI, hate the XP and LongHorn UI (so far) and Love the OS X one!



I agree, the default XP look is as ugly as it gets. But the nice thing is how easy it is to make Windows look like whatever you want it to look like. Mine currentally looks alot like Panther. You can also easily change OS X around but I like it enough to leave it alone. As long as Windows is easy to make look nicer I won't complain about how ugly the default look is.


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## Jason (Oct 28, 2003)

thank you 

(to be a little more indepth)

I've always been a fan of a black GUI, but rarely, VERY rarely is it done well enough to look good, be usable, and not become tiring, and IMHO this is one that does all that well... but thats just my opinion


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## Boeing777 (Oct 28, 2003)

<<...Microsoft said the new version (Longhorn) will have better security, make it easier to organise and find files and need to be restarted much less often...>>

Didn't they say the same every time they announced a new version of their os?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3220017.stm

By the above mentioned statement, I want to thank M$ for admitting that their current dominance of the pc market is a whole bucket of nothing with a product full of holes and bugs.

Peace.


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## Captain Code (Oct 28, 2003)

Gia:
Those pics look exactly like the Windows Server 2003 installer.


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## tsizKEIK (Oct 28, 2003)

i think its just a matter of taste.
i dont like the longhorn ui... if i was ever forced to use it (god bless.. i wont) ... id change its looks with an app like windowblinds(if it still exists)

what i wonder now with panther is.. how far can apple go?? what else is there to introduce in 10.4 in order to impress us... ... ahh.. my mac feels good


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## Arden (Oct 28, 2003)

I think we need to see something more substantial of Longhorn than just a few XP-like screenshots before we can make any judgments.  That being said, I certainly hope it _doesn't_ look like XP _or_ anything earlier than that; XP has way too much eye candy, with the whole Disney on acid thing going on, and before that it's just too dull and boring to have to look at.

Tony:  If you're going to make your PC Mac-like, go a step further and put your Taskbar at the top of the screen!  Then the Start menu will act like the Apple menu, you'll have the menu widgets, and the clock will be in the right position.


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## citizentony (Oct 28, 2003)

arden said:
			
		

> I think we need to see something more substantial of Longhorn than just a few XP-like screenshots before we can make any judgments.  That being said, I certainly hope it _doesn't_ look like XP _or_ anything earlier than that; XP has way too much eye candy, with the whole Disney on acid thing going on, and before that it's just too dull and boring to have to look at.
> 
> Tony:  If you're going to make your PC Mac-like, go a step further and put your Taskbar at the top of the screen!  Then the Start menu will act like the Apple menu, you'll have the menu widgets, and the clock will be in the right position.



I had it like that for a while but it just got in my way since the File, Edit, etc... menus are attached to the programs. I typically hide the bar and go about my business. 

I'm not so much trying to emulate OS X, I just wanted something simple and it seems the majority of Win themes just change the color of Luna or make it worse. It just so happens that OS X's interface is everything I am looking for in the apperance department. Plus since I am running them side by side it keeps my screens uniform.


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## Arden (Oct 28, 2003)

That's because they fix all the holes that the previous version had without fixing any of the new ones they've introduced.


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## hulkaros (Oct 29, 2003)

citizentony said:
			
		

> I agree, the default XP look is as ugly as it gets. But the nice thing is how easy it is to make Windows look like whatever you want it to look like. Mine currentally looks alot like Panther. You can also easily change OS X around but I like it enough to leave it alone. As long as Windows is easy to make look nicer I won't complain about how ugly the default look is.



That's not the OS X UI! That's an OS X UI wannabe  There are more complete OS X UI solutions for Windows out there! Search and you will find 

Of course you are right that you can use previous Windows UI versions in XP but still... Plus the same can be done via themes in OS X! You can make it look like Windows XP 

But I think that you pretty much said what I'm trying to say in this thread in your other post:
"It just so happens that OS X's interface is everything I am looking for in the apperance department."

Thanks a lot!


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## Total Konfuzion (Oct 29, 2003)

I'd personally rather have an OS that functions properly, runs quickly and looks decent....than one that is super flashy, has tons of eyecandy, runs like crap and crashes...a balence needs to be achieved...and we aren't quite there yet.  We had the windows9x, which wasn't pretty to look at and didn't get the job done, os 9, which wasn't pretty and got the job done, now we have os x..which is very pretty and gets most of the job done...just a little slower usually than os9 and then we have Windows XP, which looks "good"(eh)and gets the job done, but slower than any other windows.....and it's rippled with security holes.  Yay....heh


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## Arden (Oct 30, 2003)

Well, there's always Linux...


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## citizentony (Oct 30, 2003)

hulkaros said:
			
		

> That's not the OS X UI! That's an OS X UI wannabe  There are more complete OS X UI solutions for Windows out there! Search and you will find
> 
> Of course you are right that you can use previous Windows UI versions in XP but still... Plus the same can be done via themes in OS X! You can make it look like Windows XP
> 
> ...



Your welcome.   

I've seen the better emulation's but I just needed something that did not hurt my eyes, and this one fits the bill for now. 

Total Konfuzion: I have no complaints with speed or security while using XP. Just keep it up to date and it is fine. 
My only complaint with OS X.3 is that it still lags when I resize a brushed metal window and Expose gets a bit jumpy when I have memory extensive programs running, but other than that Panther really takes care of all of the speed issues I had. This is running on my 867Mhz PB 12" w/ 256mb of ram. I figure more ram would fix everything.


The main goal of any operating system is to not be noticed. It's purpose in life is to make using the computer easy, and giving applications a nice place to be used. "Eye Candy" as used in OS X are a welcome part of the experiance because, for me, they make the computer feel more intuitive, or a pleasure to use. Longhorn should make use of the same type of features and I will welcome that. It's a fact of my life that I will be using both Windows and Mac and the better each is the better my experiance gets. I for one like the fact that each "borrows" the others finer fetures and impliments them in their own little way. It give them a reason to innovate new things. I like new things.


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## senne (Oct 30, 2003)

hulkaros said:
			
		

> To senne and Jason:
> No comment!



to make things clear: i DON'T like the UI of Longhorn!


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## Gambit (Oct 30, 2003)

*senne:*
Now we all missunderstood that, didn't we 

Hey all...

Let's calm down and post more interesting posts "in depth" than the usual "windows s*cks" this or "mac's rules" etc. 
What's the damn point?

Not only have we read these uninteresting threads that go on and on for ever but frankly, they are also downright stupid and OH SO booring.

If the topic is about Longhorn, so then, lets discuss it in a more mature way than "I like" or "I hate".

*Why do you not like, in more detail?

* Will the OS be more secure?

* What about the GUI? Is "Billy-Bob and his crew" JUST looking at Apples GUI and immitating it or are there things in there that actually are original and perhaps good? 

*Is there anything that sticks out and if so...from what perspective is that good for the user?

*Is there anything innovating about Longhorn behind the GUI?

There are hundreds of questions that can be discussed.

Since the OS is not out there for the masses we have less to go on but does that mean we have nothing to say about the things we so far have seen?

The only thing I HATE is a thread going ABSOLUTELY nowhere with just crappy comments that take up place on a good forum and doesn't make anyone more smart or educated after reading the posts.

I, myself, do not take pleasure in anything Windows comes out with or use a PC (unless I have to at work) and absolutely LOVE Mac but that doesn't mean I constantly have to type that in every fora.

Let's upgrade this topic abit, shall we?
Pretty please? 

Regards,

/Gambit


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## Scummer (Oct 30, 2003)

I don't know what Microsoft is going to have up his sleeves with Longhorn.  But from my own experience starting with DOS 2.11 over Win3.11 through OS/2 then Linux but switching to FreeBSD and ending up with OS X after i found out that OS X uses FreeBSD as their platform I think i can say that Microsoft had only released one decent product sofar and that is Win2000.

Just out of pure curiousity i wonder how this Longhorn will perform.  But if it needs such astronomical hardware requirements like WinXP i will NOT even try to install it on my AMD 1700XP+ since Win2k can do everything i need to do and there is no need to upgrade to WinXP.  If Microsoft wants to get customers back, they better make sure that Longhorn is going to be FAST even on slow computers like mine.

I think Apple went the right direction when they decided to use open source as a platform for the future and also release all their developments for Darwin as open source.  Its a give and take and Apple surely profits from that 'communist' (like some Windoze bigots call it) concept, since FreeBSD has proven itself for years as an extremely stable and reliable open source *nix platform.  Heck, even Microsoft copied the BSD TCP/IP stack to use in their closed source Windows, thats how good that stuff actually is.
Now through that open source concept Apple has enough resources free to really concentrate their efforts on the GUI to make it faster, more reliable and more userfriendly since they don't have to worry about the underlaying platform.

Microsoft on the other hand just cannot grasp this concept and relies only on their pure market dominance to stay ahead of their competitors, but sooner or later i think Microsoft will loose.  I mean, hell, even the biggest companies and governments are starting to think out loud about a switch to open source just to get away from Microsoft.

I believe with the WinXP registration Microsoft shot itself into the foot.  Only through pirated Office and Windows has Microsoft gained this dominance in the computer market.  If 15 years ago i would have not been able to make a copy of DOS 3.3 because of copy protection and actually had to pay for DOS 3.3 so i could use it, i would have never EVER bought it and would have started to search back then for an alternative for my trusty 8MHz 8088.  Instead i did buy OS/2 2.0 from IBM later on, since it was simply the better OS.  Now i've bought Panther, since it is simply the better platform than Windoze.
Windoze with copy protection is worthless, anyone who has some history with computers and how Microsoft actually gained the monopoly through pirated software will ever buy a Windoze OS.

EDIT:Oh, in case any lawyer from Microsoft reads my post, don't get your panties in a twist, the DOS 3.3 back then and Win2k i use right now came with my computers in the bundle, i didn't pirate it.

Thomas


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## citizentony (Oct 30, 2003)

Scummer said:
			
		

> I believe with the WinXP registration Microsoft shot itself into the foot.  Only through pirated Office and Windows has Microsoft gained this dominance in the computer market.  If 15 years ago i would have not been able to make a copy of DOS 3.3 because of copy protection and actually had to pay for DOS 3.3 so i could use it, i would have never EVER bought it and would have started to search back then for an alternative for my trusty 8MHz 8088.  Instead i did buy OS/2 2.0 from IBM later on, since it was simply the better OS.  Now i've bought Panther, since it is simply the better platform than Windoze.
> Windoze with copy protection is worthless, anyone who has some history with computers and how Microsoft actually gained the monopoly through pirated software will ever buy a Windoze OS.



I really doubt MS or for that matter any company, counts the folks that have pirated their software when they count the User base. I figure it comes from the amount of licenses sold. 

The forced registration was quickly and quietly removed from XP. I, plus the many people I know that run XP never had to do the famed registration process.  I just installed it and went on with my life.

Microsoft has made billions of dollars off of the sales of their various operating systems and Office. When someone pirates the software MS gets no money. Their is also no way to count that user since the software was sold to one person and is being used by more than that one user. How is it that MS would either gain market share or make money anytime a person pirates their software? They can't and don't, and thinking they do is an odd way to think. 

The fact that people pirate software has no bearing on the fact that Windows is the most widely used OS. The main reason Apple has a smaller share is due to mistakes they made when they were starting out and more mistakes later in their history. They are now gaining share but I doubt they will ever control the majority. Which is fine, their innovation is due to the fact that they are the underdog. They have far better products because they have to in order to keep their current user base and to gain more users. This benefits any Apple user.


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## Scummer (Oct 30, 2003)

citizentony said:
			
		

> I really doubt MS or for that matter any company, counts the folks that have pirated their software when they count the User base. I figure it comes from the amount of licenses sold.
> 
> The forced registration was quickly and quietly removed from XP. I, plus the many people I know that run XP never had to do the famed registration process.  I just installed it and went on with my life.
> 
> ...



People got used to DOS or Windows, because they could just copy it without a problem, therefore getting used to that system without having to look for an alternative.  Now those people have become decision makers in companies for IT departments and what do they buy?  Of course what they know best, Windows/Dos/Office.  People have to start using that software now in companies they work for and get used to it.  What do they start buying for their home use?  Comps with Windoze on it of course, because thats what they know best from work.  And so on and so on.  You think every home user can just shell out 700$ for a office package?  I'd say, the minimum does that.  Its companies that buy the licenses because they don't know better, since as i mentioned before, the decision makers don't know anything else but winblows.
My god, i remember what a friggin pain in the ass it was to get some of the programs to run right by editing autoexec.bat and config.sys.  It was HORRIBLE!  You think people would buy such crappy software?  No way.  It was either bundled with the PC or copied.

Thomas


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## Gambit (Oct 30, 2003)

citizentony said:
			
		

> The main reason Apple has a smaller share is due to mistakes they made when they were starting out and more mistakes later in their history.



Some of Apples "mistakes" are known to me somewhat but I'd like to just ask for some more specifications on these "mistakes" on Apples part.

Would you mind sharing the ones you have in mind and think have made a diff. for Apples future value?

I'm just a curious person overall and would like to hear what you think.

Regards

/G


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## Gambit (Oct 30, 2003)

...PS: Pardon me for the a little *topic snatching* here. I won't do it again 

/G


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## citizentony (Oct 30, 2003)

Scummer said:
			
		

> People got used to DOS or Windows, because they could just copy it without a problem, therefore getting used to that system without having to look for an alternative.  Now those people have become decision makers in companies for IT departments and what do they buy?  Of course what they know best, Windows/Dos/Office.  People have to start using that software now in companies they work for and get used to it.  What do they start buying for their home use?  Comps with Windoze on it of course, because thats what they know best from work.  And so on and so on.  You think every home user can just shell out 700$ for a office package?  I'd say, the minimum does that.  Its companies that buy the licenses because they don't know better, since as i mentioned before, the decision makers don't know anything else but winblows.
> My god, i remember what a friggin pain in the ass it was to get some of the programs to run right by editing autoexec.bat and config.sys.  It was HORRIBLE!  You think people would buy such crappy software?  No way.  It was either bundled with the PC or copied.
> 
> Thomas



That makes some sense but is a long path based on many assumptions. Many, many people have bought the products on their own accord. Pirating software has a huge effect, but I doubt it changed more than 10% of the population's perception of MS. Remember that most people just use the software and don't pay attention to what is going on. Only a very small portion like to pay attention to what is going on with the companies whose products they use.


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## citizentony (Oct 30, 2003)

Gambit said:
			
		

> Some of Apples "mistakes" are known to me somewhat but I'd like to just ask for some more specifications on these "mistakes" on Apples part.
> 
> Would you mind sharing the ones you have in mind and think have made a diff. for Apples future value?
> 
> ...



The biggest one I can think of off the top of my head would be letting Gates one up them at the begining. 

I see it as two companies offering two different versions of the same thing. One company came out on top and the other struggles to uproot the lead. For the one on top mistakes come and go causing little trouble, but for the second company small errors can cause major problems. 

In other words, MS can make large mistakes and never see any negetive reaction due to them, but if Apple makes a mistake it really shows through.

For example, look at the recent 10.2.8 problems. If MS puts out a bad update and looses 100 users, they will never know. If Apple looses 100 users it will show.

Same with the long wait for the AL 15" PB. If, due to the wait, Apple lost potential buyers, it will show up in lack of sales. The goal is to counter any lost users with new users, but it would be nice to never loose those users in the first place.


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## tsizKEIK (Oct 30, 2003)

http://msbetas.net/V6/?postid=74


hahah.. very funny. check it out guys.. way to go micro-soft


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## Total Konfuzion (Oct 30, 2003)

tsizKEIK said:
			
		

> http://msbetas.net/V6/?postid=74
> 
> 
> hahah.. very funny. check it out guys.. way to go micro-soft



there is some humor in that, hehe.


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## UNIX X11 (Oct 30, 2003)

can you say "lawsuit"?


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## adambyte (Oct 30, 2003)

Wow. Not only is it an icon of the system suitcase, but it's an icon of the system suitcase in the "Gizmo" theme! (Observed the subtle dark and light lines on the suitcase part)... What the hell is that doing there?


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## Arden (Oct 31, 2003)

See?  Upgrading to Longhorn is really a backward step in disguise!


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## hulkaros (Oct 31, 2003)

LOL



And this to M$:


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## voice- (Oct 31, 2003)

Read the below comments, it's in Longhorn, 2003, XP, 98 etc.

Really cool though...


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## Arden (Oct 31, 2003)

Completely off-topic, I've been seeing this around the site recently and it's starting to bug me.

"Loose" = not tight, and is pronounced "lüce."  "Lose" = to suffer loss and is pronounced "lüze."  Thank you.

On-topic, I haven't seen anything in Longhorn that I actually like except the clock and the rippling windows.  Other than that, I haven't seen anything I like.

Except possibly the OS 9 icons.


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## Gambit (Oct 31, 2003)

*Snip* 





			
				citizentony said:
			
		

> In other words, MS can make large mistakes and never see any negetive reaction due to them, but if Apple makes a mistake it really shows through.


 *Snip*

-Obviously.

There are good things about being the underdog and bad ones.
I got the blues when I read a couple of days ago that Apple stands (as it is now) for 2% of the market. 
Not that I had expected the procentage to be huge but....2%?! Ah, Man!
What's next? A whipe out, is what I thought, with my head hanging down.

At least Apple could do with a nice 10%, imv.
Some of my mac user friends were not so dismal about it and said that they are optimisic that things will turn upwards.

Being a part of a nice minority is ok. Being the size of an amoeba is not!
Aspecially when the brand one hangs on to is so d*mn good!

From the pics I saw of the "Longhorn" I think that one or two things looked pretty good. But looking good isn't everything, naturally.

It just seems like the graphical ppl. at W$ has to put stuff EVERYWHERE. Icons, plips, plops or what have you not.

The bootpic could have been nice if it was stripped down abit.

One thing else I noticed was that it seems the one of the two most crappy things about W$ LH is that they will keep the unfriendly userGUI...still.

The other of the two is something I have no idea of if it will change with LH and that is.....breakdowns/patches/viruses.

/G


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## ~~NeYo~~ (Oct 31, 2003)

I think its to do with AppleTalk.


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## hulkaros (Oct 31, 2003)

A first look on Longhorn here:
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1368390,00.asp

I like the attached pictures a lot  The ability to resize/zoom the icons in the explorer windows via a slide control and something that we all know as Piles! Isn't that feature patented by Apple?  Strange!


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## Jason (Nov 1, 2003)

yeah but did apple implement them?


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## hulkaros (Nov 2, 2003)

Jason said:
			
		

> yeah but did apple implement them?



Because I don't know about these things: Can someone use another one's patent if that another person/company didn't use it? I'm not trying to argue here... Just asking!


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## tsizKEIK (Nov 2, 2003)

dont think so.
otherwise. why patent them ?


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## senne (Nov 2, 2003)

I'm sure that apple's idea of piles is different from Microsoft's. I think MS has copied the idea of piles, but they're using it different..

Maybe apple's ideea is that when you right-click (or ctrl-click) a pile, the pile 'explodes' to an Exposé-likely effect, so all documents of that pile are presented on the screen, just like Exposé does with 'Automaticly show all open windows'! They're showed as thumbnails (little screenshots of what's inside the document!), so you can easily see which document you want. Then you can click on the document that you want to open!..... Ok, don't mind me , i'm dreaming again...


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## tsizKEIK (Nov 2, 2003)

wouldnt expose seem like a dream 2 u 1 year ago ?


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## senne (Nov 2, 2003)

ahha! so dreams come true! hehe


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## Jason (Nov 2, 2003)

i have no clue what the rules are honestly.

in fact i was joking with my previous post.

it looks to me that piles here is an automatic way of storing things.... say you got hundreds of files, you can select an option to have it seperated into 3 groups by their first letter. this makes sense to me, but i am just merely assuming


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## hulkaros (Nov 2, 2003)

Lol :d Lol


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## Randman (Nov 3, 2003)

Here's my fave Longhorn screenshot. At least it shows that some things (M$) remain the same, no matter the OS.

http://www.activewin.com/screenshots/longhorn/Image26.jpg


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## applewhore (Nov 3, 2003)

LOL!!!

Brings back memories...


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## Arden (Nov 4, 2003)

Hehe, go figure.  After all, it is still Windows.


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## free&unmuzzled (Nov 8, 2003)

I hope y'all are aware that the dark grey stuff is just for the build they handed out to developers. the real thing is going to be more like this...

http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/pdc2003_hillel.asp
http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/pdc2003_aero_keynote.asp
http://www.winsupersite.com/files/pdc2003_avalon_transparency.wmv
http://www.winsupersite.com/files/pdc2003_aero_rock_video.wmv


there's a bunch of other stuff at http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/pdc2003.asp Just so's you know and don't go misunderestimating the boys in redmond...


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## hulkaros (Nov 8, 2003)

Nice pics... But soooo much like Aqua 10.1  Will they tone them down, too?  Oh! And the video links must be for something that I don't care to have... WMP9, perhaps?


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## Pascal (Nov 8, 2003)

free&unmuzzled said:
			
		

> Just so's you know and don't go misunderestimating the boys in redmond...


I'm not underestimating... but I'm not suffering from envy either. Almost everything is already available in Mac OS X. What isn't will most certainly be in there by the time Longhorn hits the shelves !


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## Gambit (Nov 8, 2003)

Oh, I'm pi**ed off now 

Isn't there *anything* new in Longhorn windows can show off when it comes to the GUI that has not been ripped off from OSX (though they do it rather badly)?

Ok, I mean something good!? 
Not one simple cool innovation that we've never seen before?

It's not that I've just noticed that Microsoft usually does these things (copy) but...this time it just got to me.    

Grrrrrr!  

/G


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## mr. k (Nov 8, 2003)

Longhorn is so far off that it's a joke -- ms is shooting for a late 2005 release (that 2 years), but in all reality it won't happen.  They are trying so hard to make longhorn a huge shift from the normal computing environment that the engineers working on it just keep fighting about what they should actually do I heard.  Somewhere on the news it said that ms completely scrapped almost all they had relating to the filesystem recently and decided to start over.  I wonder how many more times that something like that will happen :^)


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## Arden (Nov 9, 2003)

Windows?  Beautiful _and_ professional?  I wouldn't describe it with either word!

Ooo, transparentifcation!


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