# Shouldn't apple make another laptop line?



## jobsen_ski (Aug 6, 2004)

Now that lap tops account (preety much) for 50% of the mac shipments (49% for first 9 months and 53 for the last quarter) shouldn't apple launch a new (third) laptop line?

I dont know weither it would be better to be above or below the ibook line but a cheaper laptop (with just the basic features) would go along way to compete with the cheap Windoze laptops wich many people seem to head for. What do you guys think?


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## MisterMe (Aug 6, 2004)

jobsen_ski said:
			
		

> Now that lap tops account (preety much) for 50% of the mac shipments (49% for first 9 months and 53 for the last quarter) shouldn't apple launch a new (third) laptop line?
> 
> I dont know weither it would be better to be above or below the ibook line but a cheaper laptop (with just the basic features) would go along way to compete with the cheap Windoze laptops wich many people seem to head for. What do you guys think?


Exactly which features would you remove from the iBook or PowerBook?


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## Viro (Aug 6, 2004)

Well, the iBooks are really good value compared to similarly priced Windows laptops. For £799, you get a 12.1 inch notebook with fantastic battery life and is built very solidly.

You won't get anything close to the iBook for the price you pay in the x86 world. Sure, you could pay less, but you get a lot less as well. Most x86 laptops feel very 'plastic' and they bend in places where they shouldn't.

The only area where the iBooks fall short is in processor speed. But that's not really an issue for most users who are mainly interested in word processing, email and web browsing. Having a faster processor and better graphics card would do well for Mac gaming.


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## fryke (Aug 6, 2004)

I still hope that the 12" PowerBook will be replaced by a 13" widescreen version, which would set it a bit more apart from the 12" iBook. 1024*768 doesn't cut it for most pro users.

But a third line... A subnotebook would be great - and not only for the Japanese market. My dream-subnotebook-by-Apple:

- 10.4" widescreen display at 1152*768
- 900 MHz G3 or G4 processor (battery life!)
- 60 GB Toshiba 1.8" drive (slow but small and low-power, i.e. battery life!)
- 512 MB RAM (1024 max, one slot occupied by default RAM)
- No optical drive, software can be installed with a FW drive or by hooking the subnote up to another Mac via FW in Target-Mode
- 7h battery life

And all that for a low-enough price. (Whatever that means, exactly, I leave up to Apple.)


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## TommyWillB (Aug 6, 2004)

Isn't one of the biggest uses of subnotebooks to play DVD's on long plane flights? Wouldn't it need a DVD drive?

 People use subnotebooks in places where no other computer exists... So I would not make it so dependant on other machines...


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## Viro (Aug 7, 2004)

I thought they wouldn't let you use any electronic devices during a flight since it messes with the navigational instruments?


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## Jason (Aug 7, 2004)

you can use all electronic devices that do not transmit wireless signals on a flight a few mins after take off up until a few before landing

so basically you have to turn your airport card off *shrugs*


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## MisterMe (Aug 7, 2004)

Viro said:
			
		

> I thought they wouldn't let you use any electronic devices during a flight since it messes with the navigational instruments?


You are not allowed to use some electronic devices at altitudes below 10,000 feet. Others, you are not allowed to use at all. Laptops fall into the former group. Your airline magazine lists the devices that you are allowed to use.


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## Anim8r (Aug 7, 2004)

jobsen_ski said:
			
		

> Now that lap tops account (preety much) for 50% of the mac shipments (49% for first 9 months and 53 for the last quarter) shouldn't apple launch a new (third) laptop line?
> 
> I dont know weither it would be better to be above or below the ibook line but a cheaper laptop (with just the basic features) would go along way to compete with the cheap Windoze laptops wich many people seem to head for. What do you guys think?



The answer is NO!

To many lines are confusing and drive away buyers.


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## chevy (Aug 7, 2004)

I would greatly appreciate a subnotebook. Mostly with a widescreen.No need for DVD.


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## JetwingX (Aug 7, 2004)

i would like to see a subnotebook with a dock option where you can have more port options (2 FW, 3 USB, DVI, etc) and an optical bay. Thats just me.


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## MisterMe (Aug 7, 2004)

chevy said:
			
		

> I would greatly appreciate a subnotebook. Mostly with a widescreen.No need for DVD.


I would bet that the cost premium to Apple of a combo-drive or even a SuperDrive over a plain CD is negligible. At the same time, Apple software, including the OS, increasingly ships on DVD. Eliminating the DVD would actually _increase_ Apple's manufacturing costs. There are really only about two ways to produce a cheaper laptop. One is to use lower-quality parts. The other is to use a smaller LCD panel.


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## fryke (Aug 8, 2004)

no, what chevy and I mean is without an optical drive.


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## MisterMe (Aug 8, 2004)

fryke said:
			
		

> no, what chevy and I mean is without an optical drive.


Without an optical drive, you can't install commercial software. You can't update your OS to the newest point release. Without an optical drive, your computer is not reduced to a disposible appliance, but almost.


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## fryke (Aug 8, 2004)

If you had read the _thread_, you'd see what I've said above. Software could be installed either using an FW optical drive or by using the subnote as an external harddrive on another Mac using FW Target-Mode.


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## Randman (Aug 8, 2004)

And that would require a second Mac or some other computer. Apple would be crucified by the general public for releasing a notebook that requires another Mac to be updated!


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## fryke (Aug 8, 2004)

I personally didn't crucify companies when they released handhelds that needed computers to install software on them...


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## Randman (Aug 8, 2004)

A handheld device and a notebook computer are quite different animals, aren't they?


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## chevy (Aug 8, 2004)

Indeed, they are... different prices ! But one can always have, included in the notebook price, an external DVD reader.


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## kendall (Aug 8, 2004)

subnotebooks do very poorly here in the US and everyone knows, the US is Apple's target market, everyone else comes second. 

now with that said, the reality is, its just not gunna happen anytime soon.

APPLE, are you LISTENING?!  i want my Apple mp3/PDA/mobile phone hybrid NOW.

you admitted to working on a PDA so you KNOW you wanna DO IT!   mark my words, i think its gunna happen, and i think it'll be the biggest surprise from Apple since the Mac.


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## MisterMe (Aug 8, 2004)

fryke said:
			
		

> If you had read the _thread_, you'd see what I've said above. Software could be installed either using an FW optical drive or by using the subnote as an external harddrive on another Mac using FW Target-Mode.


I say that a laptop needs an optical drive. You say that that the optical drive can be an aftermarket purchase or part of a second computer. If Apple were to introduce a third line of laptops, the new line should increase Apple's total sales. I don't believe that a laptop without an optical drive meets that test.


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## fryke (Aug 8, 2004)

MP3 players weren't a big hit. And then came Apple. So some might say subnotebooks aren't a big hit... Well?

There _is_ a market for 'second' computers. People, nowadays, have computers. Why not have a second one to go. Optimised for mobile usage. The PowerBooks and iBooks are not very specialised for mobility. They're specialised in compromise in that they try (and manage!) to bring the best of all worlds together. They're feature complete, they have 'good' (but not good enough) battery life, they have good (but not good enough) performance, they have fast (but not fast enough) optical drives, they have big (but never big enough) harddrives. The 17" is a 'desktop replacement', but certainly it's not a dual G5 with an 8x SuperDrive. And not for a 12h day without an electrical outlet either.

A subnotebook could fill a gap very well. Many subnotebooks get that thought of mobility wrong, too. They're optimised in size, but not in 'mobility' as in mobile performance and battery life. Apple has the technology to create a 'second' computer to go with your PowerMac. Perfectly synched to that first computer etc.

Whether Apple will _do_ it is a different thought. But I think IF Apple should do a third line of notebooks, _that_ should be the one. Not an ultra-cheap line, because the 12" iBook already fits that (and Apple just _isn't_ about ultra-cheap).


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## kendall (Aug 8, 2004)

mp3 players were a big hit.  diamond rio was the king of mp3 players until Apple derailed them.  creative was also starting to get big into it as well.

its probably hard to fathom being from europe where subnotebooks are more widely accepted but in the US, we despise them.  we hate them.  we wont buy them. we spit on them.  kind of like smartphones, but we're getting more accepting of those in far less time.

its never going to happen.  Apple is US centric and they arent going to make a product the US already hates and has proven to have 0 use for.


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## texanpenguin (Aug 8, 2004)

The iPod is only REALLY a big hit because you don't need to use a Mac to use an iPod. Subnotebooks are entirely different monsters - they're FOR using OS X.

Sadly people still regard Mac OS as a simplified "candy" operating system without programs they require. And in many ways, they're right.

The iPod was always going to go well. It provided the public with a device that they'd wanted, and they made it work exactly how it should, and look good, which noone else had done.

Notebooks, PDAs, it's all a horrible mess.

Think about it, with PDAs, what OS will it run? All the PDA software is either on Palm OS or Windows CE. If Apple produces another operating system for it, it'll be bought only by Apple owners. So the 3% of people that use Apples will now be divided again to around 0.2% of people who would actually need a PDA and don't already have one they're happy with. AND they'd need to convince people to completely rework their software for Newton OS X . It's just not economically viable.

Instead, Apple needs to have a BARE BONES system, desktop or portable. Doesn't matter. All in one preferably, one FW port for an iPod, one or two USB ports for keyboard. Modem. 15" CRT screen. CD-ROM drive. 500 MHz G4 processor. 10GB HDD.

BARE BONES. As long as it looks nice, people will buy it, and the G4 will do OS X justice. I wouldn't buy one, but it's what people have begged for so much recently


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## MisterMe (Aug 8, 2004)

fryke said:
			
		

> MP3 players weren't a big hit. And then came Apple. So some might say subnotebooks aren't a big hit... Well?
> 
> There _is_ a market for 'second' computers. People, nowadays, have computers. Why not have a second one to go. Optimised for mobile usage. The PowerBooks and iBooks are not very specialised for mobility. They're specialised in compromise in that they try (and manage!) to bring the best of all worlds together. They're feature complete, they have 'good' (but not good enough) battery life, they have good (but not good enough) performance, they have fast (but not fast enough) optical drives, they have big (but never big enough) harddrives. The 17" is a 'desktop replacement', but certainly it's not a dual G5 with an 8x SuperDrive. And not for a 12h day without an electrical outlet either.
> 
> ...


I simply do not subscribe to Magic Apple Theory. There are so many differences between the iPod and a laptop that they really cannot be discussed in the same conversation. In developing the iPod, Apple took the idea of an MP3 player and made it long-playing, cool, and easy to use. Apple did not remove functionality from the MP3 player. Neither was the iPod's success achieved by waving a magic wand. Instead, it was achieved by  applying vision, talent, and dedication to satisfy a new market. With iTunes and the iTMS, Apple took a multi-pronged approach to growing that market.

OTOH, removing the optical drive from the PowerBook leaves you with a PowerBook without an optical drive. You will be left with a simpler, lighter motherboard and chassis. It will have longer battery life. It will be slightly thinner. The LCD screen will be about the same. The keyboard will be about the same. The number of ports will have to be about the same. So the overall size of the computer will be about the same. So, it will look about the same. The user interface will be the same. The processor will likely be smaller, lighter, and slower. The laptop will be built to Apple quality standards which means that its price will be only slightly less. Buy that external optical drive and the total price is about the same, if not more. No amount of vision, talent, and dedication cultivate a market for a laptop with a missing part. Neither will any amount of magic. The only thing that can enhance a laptop which lacks removeable storage is a dock. Apple has been there, done that, and has a warehouse full of the T-shirts.


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## Randman (Aug 9, 2004)

The only way I can see Apple doing is by adding it to the iBook line. Next year, you'll have a G5 PowerBook (likely only the 17 and 15 as the 12 might be too small to deal with the heat).
  Apple drops the Powerbook 12 and bumps up the iBook specs to fill the current PowerBook specs (G4s, a 14 and a 12), then introduces a bare-bones 10 that has some kind of dock or something so it can also be used as an external of sorts.
   But I would think it would have to have an optical drive and be able to stand on its own. Don't forget that the perception of Apple by the mainstream is that it's a brand name like BMW, quality machines but at a cost. And also, not very upgradeable.

  However, the big question is what's next for the iPod line and those mini 60GB hard drives. Those could work in a 10 iBooklet, but if something along the lines of a PowerPod is released (60GB hard drive, color screen, built-in voice recording, ability to connect directly with a digital camera and to display photos as well as some kind of dock connector to then show those photos on a TV or monitor, well then Apple will not be coming out with a sub-notebook as the PowerPod would serve many (but not all) of what a 10 could do (external storage, media, perhaps even enhanced pda functions).
   And to me, that seems a little more likely at this time.


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## Lazarus18 (Aug 9, 2004)

Yuck. Can you say cube? Smaller, less powerful, and most importantly... doesn't fit in the product line. Keep it at consumer laptop and professional laptop. Anything else will not find a market, and I don't think that Apple or anyone can create a market very successfully where none exists.


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## ElDiabloConCaca (Aug 9, 2004)

That's very true -- the reason for the success of the iPod is the timing -- right in the peak of interest of the MP3 player business.  A sub-notebook just doesn't fit in there.  Sales of PalmPilot-style organizers is slowing.  They're just not good at what they do -- hell, some of the new Palm models sport a multi-hundred MHz processor -- for WHAT?!  Keeping my address book?  Playing a measely 10 MP3s?  Writing emails on a minscule keyboard? 

The handheld market is trying to mimic the desktop market, and failing.  Instead, they should be *extending* the desktop market.

Much the same for a sub-notebook.  Requiring another computer to install software is a steep requirement.  However, it isn't unheard of -- the iPod requires a computer to sync and purchase music.  With iPods ranging in price from $250 to $400, you're gonna have to strip a lot of features out of that palm-size notebook to make it fit somewhere between an iPod and an iBook, and I just don't see the space in between those two for a completely new device.

Good idea, but would be marketed toward a *very* small segment of the population, and on top of that, only the portion of that segment that owns at least one Mac with FireWire.  A definite "cube," for sure -- very cool, very futuristic, make people go "ooh" and "aah," but really isn't targeted toward any profitable segment of the population.


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## malexgreen (Aug 9, 2004)

jobsen_ski said:
			
		

> Now that lap tops account (preety much) for 50% of the mac shipments (49% for first 9 months and 53 for the last quarter) shouldn't apple launch a new (third) laptop line?
> 
> I dont know weither it would be better to be above or below the ibook line but a cheaper laptop (with just the basic features) would go along way to compete with the cheap Windoze laptops wich many people seem to head for. What do you guys think?



 I think a tablet mac with superior handwriting recognition integrated into iLife, Appleworks, and Keynote, the iApps, along with a note taking program superior to ms onenote is missing from their notebook product list.


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## fryke (Aug 10, 2004)

So let's reduce it to the facts... Apple has an entry-level notebook line, the iBook. Apple has a 'mobile professional' line, the PowerBook. Is Apple missing something? Doesn't seem like, if we read the posts in this thread.

For me, PERSONALLY, Apple is missing one thing: A truly mobile Mac. One you can put in basically _any_ bag (even a lady's handbag). Even the 12" PowerBook is too large for that. And: Its battery power is subpar.

I find it amusing how people on here say 'a subnotebook doesn't work in US market'. 'course not. If you compare it to the subnotes that are around. If you had been asked whether the iPod would work, you'd have said: I don't want to carry around a digital music player that holds twelve songs at a meager bitrate...

I don't expect Apple to create a subnotebook that directly competes with what's already around. I expect Apple to fill a gap that's actually _there_ but missed by the biggies...


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## Viro (Aug 10, 2004)

Have a new 10.4" Powerbook. This should make use of either a G3 processor or a very low powered G4 processor in order to give it maximum battery life.


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## qwikstreet (Aug 10, 2004)

kendall said:
			
		

> APPLE, are you LISTENING?!  i want my Apple mp3/PDA/mobile phone hybrid NOW.
> 
> you admitted to working on a PDA so you KNOW you wanna DO IT!   mark my words, i think its gunna happen, and i think it'll be the biggest surprise from Apple since the Mac.



Yes please rejuvenate a hybrid Newton MessagePad. I loved my 1100. It was useful as a PDA and a weapon. The thing was a brick, and the pointy stylus pointed out the side as a nice bayonet.


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## Lazarus18 (Aug 10, 2004)

fryke said:
			
		

> I don't expect Apple to create a subnotebook that directly competes with what's already around. I expect Apple to fill a gap that's actually _there_ but missed by the biggies...



That's a good point Fryke. When the iPod came out I thought it was a horrible idea because it was so expensive for what it was (an MP3 player). Well I've been proven horribly wrong on that. *IF* Apple can make a subnotebook that really and truly fits a need I would be for it, not as a new computer line but as a digital device that fits in with the whole "digital hub" design. But to me something like that would be more like a Super Blackberry (but obviously with less emphasis on the phone aspect) than a smaller iBook or Powerbook. And I think when we start talking about things that fit in purses and are extensions of our home computers we're talking dangerously close to a PDA, which Jobs and Apple have an aversion to apparently. Count me amongst those that would jump all over a new Newton, but it just ain't happening.


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## kendall (Aug 11, 2004)

fryke said:
			
		

> I find it amusing how people on here say 'a subnotebook doesn't work in US market'. 'course not. If you compare it to the subnotes that are around. If you had been asked whether the iPod would work, you'd have said: I don't want to carry around a digital music player that holds twelve songs at a meager bitrate...
> 
> I don't expect Apple to create a subnotebook that directly competes with what's already around. I expect Apple to fill a gap that's actually _there_ but missed by the biggies...



we've been privy to japans finest subnotebooks from the likes of sony and sharp.  we in the US dont likem.  we like PDAs.  call us crazy.  maybe what you should be asking for is a Apple PDA if you want it to fit in a ladies purse. 

if so, im all for it.  as long as it has a phone and mp3 player attached.


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## Randman (Aug 11, 2004)

PDAs are on the wane. Smartphones are the next wave.


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## kendall (Aug 11, 2004)

Randman said:
			
		

> PDAs are on the wane. Smartphones are the next wave.




smartphones are just PDAs and mobile phones combined.  so, they arent on the wane so to say, they are just evolving.


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## fryke (Aug 11, 2004)

Then again, the 'iPhone' idea is about as old as the claim that Apple will bring out a new Newton at some future point in time... And we're talking 'third notebook line' in this thread...

Ah, forget about it, let's stay off-topic, then. ;-) ... I personally think we'll see two kinds of PDA/smartphones in the longer-time future (3-5 years). One type is the palmOne tréo, for people who prefer using such a device with two hands and handwriting input. The other type: The Nokia Communicator 9500, which can really be your Personal Digital Assistant, as it has everything one could need on the road, with a keyboard that's just big enough to be really useful.


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## kendall (Aug 11, 2004)

if we're on the subject of Nokia, their market share in the US is plummeting rapidly to!

note to Nokia, candybars are out, clamshells are in!


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## Lazarus18 (Aug 11, 2004)

Eh, I like candybars. I just don't like Nokias. Just got a new Sony Erikson t610 and was not at all deterred by its candybarness.


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## jobsen_ski (Aug 11, 2004)

I have to admit (although all of my previous phones have been nokias I doubt my next will be) they only just brough out their first clam shell in the UK and flip phones are DEFINATLY in here (all helped along by David Beckham - in his vodafone /sharp ardvert ofcourse - man even the 3G phones are flip now - ye theyre still masive but at least they fold in half !  lol) my next phone wont be! unless nokia brings out a  smaller and more appealing hanset / flipphone! - even Im off topic now and i started it? 

hy is every one convinced it would be a "sub - note book" why couldnt it be better than the powerbook? - I know thyre realy - realy good right now but what about a more portable version withh ALL the features and a few more mobile "like" features too - of course it would be *more* expensive. And theres alway the "e-book" option like a scalled down ibook - takes less ram etc etc, maybe doesnt have an optical drive! but there not realy needed alot in schools - they can print share files etc over networks wired or unwired. and there coudld a dock - maybe one per class or per skl so If a optical drive were realy needed it could be placed in thr "dock" of course apple would start by only selling thesed to schools and thrn suddenly that every1 else wants one too! just an idea! and something to get us back on topic! LOL

P.S. Sorry for the bad tying im writing this in ved it 1.30 am here and I did nt have a very good sleep last night!
lol


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## Lazarus18 (Aug 11, 2004)

Dude, why you want to try and bring this cell phone/PDA thread back on topic? What's up with that?

You're again trying to create laptop categories where none exist, ie there is no market. Something better than a Powerbook? Like what, a portable Cray? The 17" is already priced out of most normal people's laptop budget. How many more bells and whistles can you pack into a laptop? 

An eBook doesn't really add anything either. A low end iBook is already very competitively priced, and what would you take out of it? Smaller HD, less RAM? Those aren't going to drop the price very significantly, and as I said it's a good price already. 

You started this thing by commenting that laptops make up 1/2 of Apple's sales now. I would submit that this is so precisely BECAUSE of the limited product line. No dilution of the brand, easy line differentiation, a broad range of options when you consider the full spectrum of both lines. (Man I love sentence fragments, woo hoo!) 

And back to the cell phones... it's funny to me that you say flip phones are all the rage now in Europe, because it seems to me that they were very big here in the US a number of years ago, and now are just kind of a take it or leave it thing, whereas GSM and bluetooth is just starting to take hold here. Funny how that happens.


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## Randman (Aug 12, 2004)

Flip phones are big in the US, but the US is very far behind the rest of the world when it comes to cell phones. But now that Motorola seems to be making some inroads in the international market, flips might make a slight impact.
   But this thread alone shows that everyone has a different idea of what a sub-notebook should contain (or not contain). No wonder Apple doesn't address this.
  Besides, most everyone is calling for a G5 PB yesterday, only a few are calling for a sub-notebook.


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## mdanda (Aug 12, 2004)

Another laptop line? Well--what about portable computers? Remember the old Compaq suitcase portable from the 80s? It was bigger than today's eMac and iMac, which are not laptops, but still fall under the "luggable" category. I think that all of Apple's consumer lines of computers are already based on some sort of portability. 

I was seriously considering getting the 17" Mac flat panel display (plus DVI adapter) for my PB12, but then realized that a cheapo eMac was almost the same freakin price. And they both run 1280 resolution. Hmmm.....very confusing pricing strategies. 

That being said, adding a line of cheaper computers would usurp the more expensive lines of computers. So it'll never happen.


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## rubicon (Aug 14, 2004)

I haven't read through the entire thread but I'll respond to the orignal post.

Apple's iBook line competes in the same space as lower-cost Windows laptops.  I'm not sure Apple has anything to gain by introducing more hardware.  In fact, I feel that Apple improves the image of their "brand" by _not_ offering rock-bottom priced equipment.

Less expensive Apple hardware will not compete for Windows converts.  Windows users have no clue why we love our Macs therefore it doesn't matter how inexpensive a new Mac product line might be.  Apple, and its user base, must keep on the "Switch" crusade to make any real dent with market share.  In fact, I think that Darwin (UNIX) is the real deal to grab Windows converts.  Get the techies to convert and it'll trickle down to everyone else.

However, I'll agree that price is what keeps many people with Windows.  However, Windows has such lousy integration with the OS, applications, and hardware compared with Mac.  If Windows users could experience how well Mac hardware works with the OS they'd be more willing to pay for Apple equipment.  Or hopefully more willing.

Linux is getting many Windows techies to switch OS platforms for day-to-day use.  However, Linux has many hardware driver issues to deal with compared to Mac.  Thus, Mac OS X is an easy to install and operate system.  Linux takes some retraining and time to get fluent.  Anyway, I've wandered off course on this topic but I think Apple has their laptop product line just right.  If anything they should release a G5 powered laptop but that would tip the price scales a little too high if it is even possible due to heat issues.


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## Lycander (Aug 20, 2004)

Show me a Mac notebook that can match this:
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=34-115-139&depa=3

Acer Aspire 1681WLMi Notebook
CPU: Pentium M 715 - 1.5GHz
Display: 15.4" WXGA TFT
OS: Windows XP Home
Memory: 512MB
Graphics: ATI Mobility Radeon 9700, 64MB
HD: 60GB
Optical Drive: DVD+/-RW Drive
Communication: 56K Fax/Modem, 10/100 Mbps LAN, Acer SignalUp wireless technology, Bluetooth
Ports: 3xUSB2.0, VGA,S-video,FireWire,FIR, Audio Ports
Average Battery Life: up to 5 hours
Weight: 6.5 lb.

$1,365


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## ElDiabloConCaca (Aug 20, 2004)

Sorry, there isn't a Mac notebook that can match that.  Macs are all overpriced and underpowered, and I'm sure that the quality of workmanship and ease of use of that Acer notebook far outdo the Mac laptops.  Also, I'm sure that the user experience is also far superior.

All in all, you found the one notebook that proves that Intel machines are simply better, cheaper, stronger, faster and more feature-packed than any Apple offering.

I'm sick of this, "Yeah, show me a Mac that matches *this!*  No, wait, show me a Mac that matches *THIS!*"  If that's the notebook you want to be using, then by all means, we're happy you found it.  However, if you're willing to spend a little more dough, I can show you a laptop that is *better* than that one.  It may not be 1.5GHz, and it may come with a little less RAM, but the benefits of it would *far* outweigh what people see as detractions.  Plus, if you think you'd get the same long-life and enjoyment from that laptop as you would from an Apple laptop, then again: go for it, and we're happy you found it.


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## kainjow (Aug 20, 2004)

Lycander said:
			
		

> Show me a Mac notebook that can match this:


Hardware means *nothing* withouth good software...

Show me an OS that can match this: http://www.apple.com/macosx/


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## rubicon (Aug 20, 2004)

kainjow said:
			
		

> Hardware means *nothing* withouth good software...




Agreed.

Windows users (myself included) are used to the crap Microsoft dishes out for an OS.  We don't know any better.

As for the folks that continually state how much cheaper that Wintel hardware is, well, look at it this way....  Standard car models vs. luxury models.  Lexus has been very successful with selling $47K+ cars because they offer more comfort and features that people want in a luxury vehicle.  People that don't care or can't afford it buy a Toyota instead.  You'll find the comfort and quality of Toyotas are very different than Lexus.

Thus, we have Windows and Macintosh.  Toyota and Lexus.  If you own a Lexus (or Mac), you know why and you'll never convince your Toyota-owning neighbor otherwise.

Incidentally, I own a VW but I've shopped around for Lexus and Infiniti SUVs for the wife.  We got an Infiniti because the Toyota Highlander was junk (sorry if you own one) and we didn't want to spend the extra $$$ for the Lexus.  And you know what, the Lexus is a nicer vehicle than the Infiniti.  However, I don't go around and slam Lexus for being overpriced.

Sorry for the rant - I've gone way off topic.  It's off my chest now.


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## Lazarus18 (Aug 21, 2004)

Lycander said:
			
		

> Show me a Mac notebook that can match this:
> http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=34-115-139&depa=3
> 
> Acer Aspire 1681WLMi Notebook
> ...



Well, for about $200 more I got an iBook that has nearly the same specs, weighs less, has a longer battery life, doesn't run on a horrible OS, and for an extra $169 I got a 40GB iPod. Does that match up at all favorably? It's good to be an Apple customer and a student.


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## Ceroc Addict (Sep 20, 2004)

fryke said:
			
		

> MP3 players weren't a big hit. And then came Apple. So some might say subnotebooks aren't a big hit... Well?
> 
> There _is_ a market for 'second' computers. People, nowadays, have computers. Why not have a second one to go. Optimised for mobile usage. The PowerBooks and iBooks are not very specialised for mobility. They're specialised in compromise in that they try (and manage!) to bring the best of all worlds together. They're feature complete, they have 'good' (but not good enough) battery life, they have good (but not good enough) performance, they have fast (but not fast enough) optical drives, they have big (but never big enough) harddrives. The 17" is a 'desktop replacement', but certainly it's not a dual G5 with an 8x SuperDrive. And not for a 12h day without an electrical outlet either.
> 
> ...


In a former life, I owned a VIAO PCG C1.







In a lot of ways, it was a beautiful machine:


Looked great
Weighed nothing (even with the additional 19 hour battery)
Built in web cam (which I never used, because Sony's software was crap)
Built in 4 pin firewire port

It had three big problems:


It was too slow (slow memory?). Starting up and launching applications was just ridiculously painful. This was the main reason for getting rid of it.
It ran Windows ME (after experiencing OS X, I could never ever go back)
No CD drive (nowadays, it'd be "No DVD drive").

I don't think Apple should focus on a cheaper laptop, but one that was more *mobile* (i.e. Could be carried around in your pocket everywhere) would be extremely welcome.

*My little "dream machine" would be a combination of a Treo 650, Sony CLIE PEG UX50 and iPod mini*:

Mobile phone
Camera, that could be rotated (like the one on the CLIE), so it could be used for iChat AV videoconferencing (or just taking pictures)
iPod dock connector, for connection to firewire or USB2.0 ports
Built in hard drive - minimum of 5 GB free capacity
802.11g and BT
A decent built in thumbpad keyboard (and ideally connectable to an Apple BT mouse/keyboard)
Connectable to an external projector - via s-video and/or 802.11g (with a mode so that buttons on the thumbpad keyboard could be used to navigate slides)
Syncs with iTunes, Address book and iCal
Decent Applications (!):
Quicktime
Preview (for PDF and image viewing)
Mail (esp. one that can automatically syncs with the Mail in OS X)
iTunes (esp. capable of playing audiobooks from Audible.com)
Keynote
Safari
iCal
Address book (although I think the Address Book in OS X is in need of some updating)
TextEdit (with capability of opening Word documents)
Spotlight


Kap

P.S. I'd still keep my iPod for jogging.


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