# A clean start is possible, but it's up to us!



## themacko (Jun 10, 2002)

After the mayhem which occured earlier today, Admin has been a real man about the whole thing and admitted his actions were extreme and unlike-him.

I know he's a good guy, I don't have problems with him.  What he had problems with were the sudden changes that he placed onto the board.

Well now he's taken it back, given everyone a clean slate and taken down the forum rules and censorships.  What we have to do now is find it in ourselves to forgive him for his mistakes, admit that we too may have taken things too far and try to keep this community of friendships together.

Many of you have signed up at other forums, that is fine.  However, you owe it eachother to give our community another chance.  I hope you will decide what is best, but if you wish to stay in your 'new' homes I understand.

Thanks, and I hope this is a _welcome back_ for many of you!

-Scott


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## BlingBling 3k12 (Jun 10, 2002)

I for one, am definitely coming back. If you do it every day for 6 months, it's hard to stop coming here!

I will forgive Admin for his actions... I hope today's fiasco turns out to make the forum a better place.

And while you're at it, you might want to check out www.macfora.com and forums.macosxhints.com. Both of those sites are extrememy nice and welcoming, just like this site was to us when all of us started here.

Let's put aside our differences and turn this into a positive experience.

Thanks everyone,
Casey Kelley
a.k.a. BlingBling 3k12

Edit: If you notice, I've removed from my signature, avatar, and location, all of my "protest" information, with the hopes of a bright future here at MacOSX.com


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## kilowatt (Jun 10, 2002)

Let me echo that 100%!!!!!

Because we have so much community here, this place will bounce right back and remain special to me.

Lets all try and make this a great place that it once was, and that it can become!


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## wdw_ (Jun 11, 2002)

Yes! I didn't want to leave! I love this site. I'm seriously almost crying.


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## wdw_ (Jun 11, 2002)

Hey! Wait a second. If the censoring is gone, then why is my sig still censored?


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## homer (Jun 11, 2002)

But the MONKEYS!!!  I've gotta have some monkey smilies!


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## homer (Jun 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by wdw_ _
> *Hey! Wait a second. If the censoring is gone, then why is my sig still censored? *



I would imagine that there's still some censoring of "bad words".  I don't know what's in your sig that's starred out. . . .  I'm fine with THAT kind of censorship.

edit: I looked at your sig, and I see what word has been censored.  That's just fine with me!


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## themacko (Jun 11, 2002)

wdw_ :

all censoring has been taken off.  what has happened, though, is that the forum software cannot undo what it has already censored.  ie, it changed the word piss or shit to ****, but it does not remember what the word originally was.

and let's all keep in mind that the admin removed all the censoring in good faith.  it does not mean that you start dropping f-bombs all over the place.


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## wdw_ (Jun 11, 2002)

Oh. I fixed it. I partialy censored myself, just to be polite.


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## nkuvu (Jun 11, 2002)

I'm giving the place a week.  I think Admin's idea of a week off is a good one.  We'll see how it goes when I get back.


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## RacerX (Jun 11, 2002)

> _forgiveness from a far_
> *For all of you, the slate has been cleaned free, I forgive you all.*



What? I'm forgiven for what? I had three posts deleted (starting Friday) that said or did nothing offensive. I take my complains to the moderators like we were supposed to for three days. I watch him escalate a situation that never needed to occur.

I would point out that this all started with him deleting a constructive thread on Press3. Was followed by him deleting Jadey's request for information on where the thread had gone. And then he deleted a third thread asking why the subject of Press3 was being censored.

So now I am _forgiven_ for that? Is this for real! He never said (that I could tell) that he was sorry for starting this to begin with. Without an actual apology, I see no changes. For three days people have been pointing out the flaws in his actions, and it wasn't until we had a mass of members leaving that he became a _real man about the whole thing_.

Tell you what, when Jadey e-mails me telling me that she has received a complete and heart felt apology from Admin for his actions _and_ she has been able to repost her thoughts on Press3 like she had last Friday, then, *and only then* will I rejoin any group that has him as a leader or member.

This was a one day ordeal for most of you, so return if you want. This was something very important to me, and I do see us actually any closer to a resolution.

See you guys on the outside.


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## Alexandert (Jun 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RacerX _
> *
> 
> What? I'm forgiven for what? I had three posts deleted (starting Friday) that said or did nothing offensive. I take my complains to the moderators like we were supposed to for three days. I watch him escalate a situation that never needed to occur.
> ...



Sorry that I quoted  all of the article but I want to 100% second that. I must say that it was a very hard stepp to totally leave this board. But what has happened was a bit too much for me. I would really like to return BUT as I see this sentence that Admin forgives us....... that makes me just angry.   Its all our fault? What was our fault? I think we have to clear questions like this first. Then we can talk about returns and stuff like this. 

Im looking forward to a better solution!


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## Alexandert (Jun 11, 2002)

And one more thing...

I think its time to call out some names. This stuff like "You know who you are" isnt too good for solving our problems. We have to think and speak clear for getting things fixed!  (I think that they mean me too. I was banned one time bu was allowed to return. I still dont know why  )





Im sure there may be some people thinkin "Pah... y'all go away. We dont need you. We have many users on this board. 

But thats the wrong way. Lets all get together at a huge table and lets discuss this please. I would really appriciate that!


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## Alexandert (Jun 11, 2002)

As a sign of protest I changed my Avatar to the gone Avatar. Im not really gone. I will continue to look at Herve's in hope to see an other solution or a discussing table or whatever. This topic needs to be discussed for keeping this board "clear"!


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## kilowatt (Jun 11, 2002)

I for one think admin handled this very well. He didn't name names to avoide a debate over who was at fault. Finger pointing, if you will. If you don't feel you need to be forgiven, then fine, don't be  

ooh! kernel finished compiling, brb!


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## benpoole (Jun 11, 2002)

Well, it's good to see that some people are getting on with things:

http://www.macosx.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18703


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## uoba (Jun 11, 2002)

have been hot-headed with my posts in the last few days, but have vowed not to dive in anymore. I am officially keeping myself out of warez posts for a start  

I just hope others will realise that they too can go down the wrong path where antagonistic threads are concerned!

Here's to a new start.

As for Admins actions, I think he did what he had to, the size of the task with this forum is daunting for anybody.


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## benpoole (Jun 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Alexandert _
> *As a sign of protest I changed my Avatar to the gone Avatar. Im not really gone.*


SO in other words, your avatar is completely pointless, as is your post... 

Look, this is "just" a discussion forum. Don't get so wound up about it!


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## sithious (Jun 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RacerX _
> *
> 
> What? I'm forgiven for what? I had three posts deleted (starting Friday) that said or did nothing offensive. I take my complains to the moderators like we were supposed to for three days. I watch him escalate a situation that never needed to occur.
> ...



i second that.


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## voice- (Jun 11, 2002)

People left? Anywho, I'd stay here_till the site was dead. I love this site, can't imagine anywhere else I'd rather be.
Now, I have a little favor to ask of our Admin.

When I was new here there was a game-forum, it was taken down shortly after due to inactivity, could we have that back? It bugs me to sign up for MacNN, Macfora and InsideMacGames to use one section only when I really wanted it all here...I, for one, think the community is ready for it. I know it's a bit off-topic, but I figure I might as well answer here.


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## nkuvu (Jun 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RacerX _
> *
> 
> What? I'm forgiven for what? I had three posts deleted (starting Friday) that said or did nothing offensive. I take my complains to the moderators like we were supposed to for three days. I watch him escalate a situation that never needed to occur.
> ...



Agreed.

benpoole, you just don't get it.


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## uoba (Jun 11, 2002)

I need an RtCW outlet!! ... and I can foresee a Medal of Honour one soon as well!


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## dlookus (Jun 11, 2002)

I see a few things that would help solve our problems:

1. Do not delete threads unless they're totally offensive. I mean threads that have no point other than to offend.

2. Lock threads that are redundant (maybe delete them after 24 hours.) I don't think anyone would disagree with that. I don't think it's necessary if it's just similar to a thread from a year ago, but when we have 4 "10.1.5 is out!!!" it makes sense.  I think fewer threads will lead to better discussions and make it easier to find information you're looking for.

3. If a thread is moved or locked please give an explaination. This was a big reason I left. I saw threads disappearing all over the place with no explaination.

4. I thought we were doing a pretty good job of this already, but I think we can police ourselves a little better. Report offensive people to the mods. Let people know when they're posting in the wrong place etc.

5. We need to put an end to "Insane Posting." Personally I think the "Word association" thread is fine, but there are some really stupid threads out there with no point whatsoever. Not only that, but we have people who post in those threads just to bring them back to the top of the lists.

Those are just a few off the top of my head. I think we can work this out if we stop pointing fingers. I'd like to see Admin in here.


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## benpoole (Jun 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nkuvu _
> *benpoole, you just don't get it. *


No, I _get it_, I just have a life. Maybe some of you guys should get one too. And for people who are "gone", you guys sure seem to be able to post a lot.


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## .dev.lqd (Jun 11, 2002)

This morning was a relatively good surprise to see things in a state of comparative repair. 

I think EVERYONE needs to swallow their pride. I think the admin has done that. I know how a lot of people feel their contribution to the community was SEVERELY devalued yesterday, and I agree for the most part with the sentiments you guys have expressed. 

I have an idea or two about what it's like to have a side project become the target of outside stresses in your life. It's horribly embarassing and there's little way to repair it. You guys may yet recieve apologies, but I don't feel that demanding them in this fashion is going to help repair the situation. When something like this happens, you just have to get away and take stock of what happened. I'm sure the admin is doing something along the lines of that right now. 

This isn't giving the community a second chance... this 'second chance' is for you guys to give the admin. The best way to welcome him back is to show him a strong, collected community being responsible with the concessions he made. I feel the best thing for everyone to do is accept those concessions gratefully. 

I honestly don't want to downplay ANYONE'S pain... but I ask you guys out of self interest, at the very least, because I dig you guys 

p.s. Ben... don't be an ass. When you enjoy and belong to someplace for a long time... it matters. You make friends. You're welcome to make your own comments regarding your feelings... but don't presuppose that your level of attachement to this board or your so called life entitles you to make judgement on anyone else.


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## benpoole (Jun 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by .dev.lqd _
> *p.s. Ben... don't be an ass. When you enjoy and belong to someplace for a long time... it matters. You make friends. You're welcome to make your own comments regarding your feelings... but don't presuppose that your level of attachement to this board or your so called life entitles you to make judgement on anyone else.*


Please... Look, everything got out of hand. Yesterday, Admin wiped the slate clean and told us he's taking a break. A wise decision IMHO. So why can't others do the same? Move on?

If people continue to make overblown and cretinous remarks about thread deletion (for Christ's sake! *thread deletion*! So what? I had stuff wiped out too! Big deal!) in what is essentially a nice wee discussion forum on the web, they open themselves to the criticism I made. Especially people who bleat about the fact they're leaving -- a shame, but it's their decision -- and then don't at all.

And don't call me an "ass" then proceed to tell me not to stand in judgement of people.


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## .dev.lqd (Jun 11, 2002)

I was dealing with fact and opinion separately


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## dlookus (Jun 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by benpoole _
> *Please... Look, everything got out of hand. Yesterday, Admin wiped the slate clean and told us he's taking a break. A wise decision IMHO. So why can't others do the same? Move on?
> 
> If people continue to make overblown and cretinous remarks about thread deletion (for Christ's sake! thread deletion! So what? I had stuff wiped out too! Big deal!) in what is essentially a nice wee discussion forum on the web, they open themselves to the criticism I made. Especially people who bleat about the fact they're leaving -- a shame, but it's their decision -- and then don't at all.
> ...



Most of us want to come back here. Don't criticize us for trying to work things out. If we are sure things are back to the way they should be, we'll come back for good.


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## Alexandert (Jun 11, 2002)

is when people tell me that I said something that id just not right. I thing benpoole wanted to tell me that I said I'm gone and in the next sentence I said that I'm not. 

THat is just not right. I didnt say that. I just want to show that I totally agree with all the other people who have this "gone" Avatar.  People like ben are people who let me think that this board is going to go down.

And please - to both sides - dont begin where all this started and use words like "Ass". Lets all discuss this in a way we all want to discuss on this board in future. 

(Personnaly I can totally feel with you dev.lqd!!!)  

I want to stay at this board because I think I found some great friends!  (And Im sure I'm not the only one) But there are things that need to be discussed in order to stay friends!


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## Bluefusion (Jun 11, 2002)

OK... well, at the moment, this is looking OK. Admin has TRIED to rectify the situation--it's not perfect for all of us, but he's very stressed (as should be obvious) and at least he's now starting to come back to his senses.

I don't want to leave MacOSX.com if I don't have to. I at least feel like I won't have to leave anymore; but whether or not this place will become the place it was last Friday is still up in the air.

I'm keeping my avatar for now, as I'm really not "back"... but I will be sometime soon, I hope.


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## benpoole (Jun 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Alexandert _
> is when people tell me that I said something that id just not right. I thing benpoole wanted to tell me that I said I'm gone and in the next sentence I said that I'm not.


Nope. General observation about these "Gone" avatars is all.



> People like ben are people who let me think that this board is going to go down.


Well, jeez, now I'm the problem when all I'm asking is that people go along with Admin's post pleading for a return to sanity on the boards. 



> And please - to both sides - dont begin where all this started and use words like "Ass". Lets all discuss this in a way we all want to discuss on this board in future.


There shouldn't be any _sides_ in all of this, and as far as I'm concerned there aren't. There are however those who resort to insults, and those who don't.



> (Personnaly I can totally feel with you dev.lqd!!!)


Nice.


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## uoba (Jun 11, 2002)

arguing the same point from different perspectives!!


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## themacko (Jun 11, 2002)

Yup, let's not get on eachother's backs here.  We could all do a little 'growing up.'

Let me also say this:  You guys are NOT comming back for Admin.  You don't owe him anything.  You do, however, owe your friends and peers here the chance to continue as such.  We are a community not lead by Admin, but by eachother.  Don't blow the chance to rebuild what we had because of some thick-headed stubborness.


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## Alexandert (Jun 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by themacko _
> * lot lead by Admin,  *


 I think that means "not".

If not. We wouldnt have any problem here.


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## Alexandert (Jun 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by benpoole _
> *Nope. General observation about these "Gone" avatars is all.
> 
> Well, jeez, now I'm the problem when all I'm asking is that people go along with Admin's post pleading for a return to sanity on the boards.
> ...



first: Whatever

second: I didnt say Its you who annoyes me. All people who behave like you!!!

third: You are a bit of right.

fourth: Dont be an Ass and keep a bit of humor!


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## benpoole (Jun 11, 2002)

I have a sense of humour... sometimes. But this whole storm in a teacup has s-t-r-e-t-c-h-e-d it to the limit.

Anyway, shouldn't you be doing something else if you're "semi-gone" -- playing Quake or "chasing chicks," something like that?

 

(Yeah, I read your profile... sheesh man!)


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## googolplex (Jun 11, 2002)

Well I know I'm back. I was angry at first, especially when my thread and posts were deleted, but I see that things will clear up and they need to. I love this community too much to leave for good.


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## .dev.lqd (Jun 11, 2002)

Ben... your interpersonal skills are awe-inspiring.

You are the one calling for a return to sanity at the end of a post heavily laden with flame-bait. Stop inciting members to riot.


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## ABassCube (Jun 11, 2002)

This is a bit strange because I hadn't been posting here for a really long time and then yesterday I came back to complete insanity.

From what I've heard and seen about the censoring, deleted posts and bans it seems to me like it was mostly Admin's fault and that most of the people banned and censored really didn't do anything wrong. But that's just what I've heard and maybe some other people here did take it over the edge, I really don't know. I do think that Admin could have taken a bit more of the blame for what he did, but he seems to be trying to get it back to normal, and I think that's a good enough reason to start  thinking about posting again.

I'll still be posting at MacFora since that's where most of the pissed off macosx.com members went and it's a great community there too. I'll give macosx.com some time to return to normal again and then I'll probably start posting again. Right now, it doesn't seem quite normal enough to start posting regularly again, but I'm optimistic that it'll get there. I love macosx.com and I hope it can once again be the great community it once was. 

Adam


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## benpoole (Jun 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by .dev.lqd _
> *Ben... your interpersonal skills are awe-inspiring.
> 
> You are the one calling for a return to sanity at the end of a post heavily laden with flame-bait. Stop inciting members to riot. *


Oh man, you get better and better... LIGHTEN UP!

And FYI, my "inter-personal skills" (damn stupid Americanisms) are just fine and dandy. There's no flame-bait in my post -- if you're seeing that, you really _are_ an "Angry member" -- chill before you blow something! We were jesting with each other. That's why there are SMILIES in our posts.


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## Winblows (Jun 11, 2002)

i recieved a warning about my warez post, although i posted the thread before the policy was instituted. i understood the concern, so i backed off the warez posting. i was banned for posting a question (which could have been construed as sarcasm) about the policy, and now i am _allowed_ back? in admins post, he mentioned that the battle was over.... how was it a battle? theres not much of a fight when your ID becomes banned and your words (or fighting i guess i should say) are deleted before they can reach others. hmmm deleting the past so others wont rebel too.. ya, 1984 was a good book


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## homer (Jun 11, 2002)

No, I think a battle was fought.   A lot of people left in solidarity with the people who had been banned.  That could be construed as fighting--letting others know that they weren't going to put up with that nonsense.


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## MDLarson (Jun 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ABassCube _
> *This is a bit strange because I hadn't been posting here for a really long time and then yesterday I came back to complete insanity.*


Yeah, I had / am having the same experience.  Sounds like policy change is the big culprit here.  Is this a case of Admin using his power a little too freely and carelessly, or a few members who refuse to operate under authority?

Deletion of well-meaning threads?  Probably not the best for community.
Unwillingness to forgive?  *Definitely* not the best for community.

I'm currently only 22, but I have lived enough to know that forgiveness _works_ and people in general need to say *I'm Sorry* and *I forgive you* a little more.


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## edX (Jun 11, 2002)

ok, this is getting out of hand. this thread is closed.


D  just kidding!!...stop throwing things, really, i was just kidding)

just a few of my thoughts.

threads like this are the way we start building back the trust. it will take time to do so, but it can't be done without being here and giving it a shot. I expect a certain amount of 'testing the limits' in the near future. For a few days i'm going to be pretty lenient about that - i'll delete or edit if i feel it neccessary and then let the poster know why. there will be no official warning attached unless my thoughts on it are ignored and it escalates into chaos or insults. Does that seem fair enough?


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## homer (Jun 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ed Spruiell _
> *Does that seem fair enough? *



Indeed.


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## satanicpoptart (Jun 11, 2002)

make love not war


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## googolplex (Jun 11, 2002)

I'm not sure I'll be doing any of that on here any time soon


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## benpoole (Jun 11, 2002)

I just did, and they were scrummy.

Ireland won the football, England are playing tomorrow (I'm nervous), and the kids liked their bedtime story. So I'm happy...


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## satanicpoptart (Jun 11, 2002)

fajitas are good but so are FIREFLY HARD DRIVES. god this thing is so awsome.... its the same size as a credit card and only a quarter inch tall! moving digital media to school will be sooo much easier now!


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