# .Mac Petition



## spitty27 (Jul 17, 2002)

Spread it to your Mac friends, we are not Microsoft customers! We notice when you pass on an upgrade, don't expect us to pay for it... 

.Mac is good but at its current price point it is a RIPOFF 

http://www.PetitionOnline.com/iTol/petition.html


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To:_ Apple Computer, Mr. Steve Jobs 

We, the undersigned, are signing to make sure that our voices be heard against Apple's proposed "upgrades" to the .mac service (formally known as iTools). 
The services for which Apple is charging are highly overpriced and not worth it. 

Virus Protection is almost unnecessary on the Mac, and McAffe is much inferior and more expensive then other Virus protection ((such as VirusBarrier from Intego software)) 

The Other services are not much better either, Tech Support for iTools is unnecessary as it seems that it works well, most of us Mac users don't need back up software, we can do it all through backuping our home folder (/~/) minus the library, 

Our significant worry is the loss of our email address. Most of us have embraced what we feel to be the best email service around in iTools (.mac) and have distrubuted our email addresses around, we feel that by making us pay for these services .Mac is no longer useful at its price point. 

What We Want: We want the price to be lowered overall for all subscribers, perhaps by 50% or more (($25 for previous iTools subscribers, $50 for brand new customers)), it should come free with every Mac purchased. We also want you to continue to make the .Mac email free. At least for those of us who already have a iTools email addresses. 

Why do we want this: Because we love the Mac and see the potential in the .Mac services. 

And as we were once told..."It will be free for life" 

To quote a user's response after hearing the new price point for .Mac 
"Hello. I'm a happy Apple customer but this latest .Mac service has me disappointed. You're charging money for email when yahoo.com email is still free, hotmail.com is still free, and others. We, Mac users, were told this would be free for life. This is an outrage." 

Sincerely, 

The Undersigned 

--------------------


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## twister (Jul 17, 2002)

I'm not concerned about the overall price. I just want the email.  I don't need anything else .mac has to offer.

Twister


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## DualG4X (Jul 17, 2002)

only 151 sig so far, thats lame, come on people sign the dam thing


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## spitty27 (Jul 17, 2002)

its only been 1.2 hours u cant blame it...well get there dont worry we'll make news


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## simX (Jul 17, 2002)

I agree.  I have no complaints with the overall price, and I actually intend to buy at least the first year.  But I think Apple should keep e-mail free (at least a 5 MB account).

By the way, it would've been nice if we could make comments on the signatures.  And it would've been nice to have made the wording of the petition a little better.

I signed it anyway, but it could've been better.


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## d8n_two (Jul 17, 2002)

No offense, but whoever wrote it probably should have done some better proofreading.  There are a few spelling and grammatical errors.  It may not seem like a big deal, but little things like that make the difference on whether or not something is taken seriously.  Believe me, I've worked in marketing and PR, and quality spelling and grammar in the copy is a must.

d8n_two


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## spitty27 (Jul 17, 2002)

i didnt write it im just spreading it so we can get enough signatures...aiming for a thousand


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## xoot (Jul 17, 2002)

I signed it. 211 signatures total.


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## themacko (Jul 17, 2002)

would you like some cheese with your whine?


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## evildan (Jul 17, 2002)

I want my evildan@mac.com email to stay free as well.

I rely on that email account everyday. In fact, case in point, I was planning on using it as a tranistion email account since I have recently decided to switch jobs.

My primary account (my work account) will be deactivated around the same time Apple has decided to deactivate my so called "free email account for life."

Thanks Apple, you could have kept the spring loaded folders, I only wanted my promised free services to continue.

.mac should be an upgraded option.


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## evildan (Jul 17, 2002)

I will write a revision to this protest. As requested in another thread.

I will post it here. But since it is a revision, you will have to notify everyone that has already signed to review and except the changes.

Send out an email notification, etc.


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## azosx (Jul 17, 2002)

When has Apple ever over-turned a decision at the request of it's user base?  

Maybe they have but I don't seem to recall them ever doing so.

Jobs is a very stubborn man and apparently a liar?  Is it true that he said iTools would be free forever?  I don't use iTools but if I were as dependent on it as it sounds other users are, I would be furious.

$100 anually is outrageous for email and 100MB of online storage.  Get a external 40GB FireWire HD and take it with you.  You'll be money ahead in less that 2 years.

I don't know, this may be a sign that Apple is a bit hardup for cash.  How did their iPhotos venture turn out?  Do people actually pay and absurd amount of money to get grainy digital photos binded through Apple?  I never hear about it anymore so I am assuming no.

This is going to be a big slap in the face to a lot of their newly "switched" users as well.

I can see it now.  "So I payed $1000 more just to get this Apple that can do everything, and they were right, it can do everything Windows did, just for a hell of a lot more money!"

I'd love to see a Microsoft "switched back" campaign addressing something like this.  

It would go something like this...

"Yeah, I made the switch and it was o-k for about 10 minutes.  The PowerMac G4 is sure sexy other than the hairline crack across the front of the case.  I called AppleCare and they said cosmetic issues are not covered, and that in my case it wasn't a flaw but a mold line.  Bummer."

"Next, I spent the first half hour looking for MS Office, but couldn't find it.  What gives?"

"Every PC I had ever purchased before came with a new version of MS Office, but I guess I have to pay $500 if I want to run it on my new Mac.  What a crock!"

"Sure, all my Windows files and documents opened flawlessly in OS X, I just need to invest about $2000 more in software to get them to do so."

"Next I tried signing up for .mac, figuring it was like the free MSN Hotmail XP offered.   My God, Apple wants $100 a year, I began to feel a sinking in my stomach."

"I promptly returned this little beast back to the Apple store for a full refund minus the $400 restocking fee."

"Finally I called Dell.  Got 2.4GHz P4 with XP and MS Office Pro.  They even gave me dialup for a year free and 8 email accounts with 20MB storage a piece."

"Thinking different sure turned out to be a costly investment."

"My name is Bill, and I can't stand being lied to."


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## evildan (Jul 17, 2002)

Apple is already offering a FREE trial...

here


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## hugheba (Jul 17, 2002)

Umm... we bitched enough about the eMac... and we got it.


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## boi (Jul 17, 2002)

i think we should point out the fact that homepage.mac.com and @mac.com email addys and iCards are Apple advertisements. they should have eliminated idisk, made homepage.mac.com sites have less space and gave the @mac.com addys less space to work with, then advertise the .mac upgrade. apple will understand its mistake soon enough. it takes the ease of use out of the digital hub if we have to purchase it separately. OS X will not operate as easily without itools built in. 

but whatever. i'm not out for a free ride, i'm just lookin' out for apple. i know i'm not going to buy .mac stuff, i've got my own web host and email addresses ([plug]boi@inversiondesigns.com [/plug]) to play with. it was just pride that kept me with boi_retro@mac.com. i loved having mac.com addy. oh well.


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## simX (Jul 17, 2002)

azosx:  Get a life.  Just because Apple starts charging for a free service doesn't mean you have to switch platforms.  And you know why .Mac is worth it?  Because I don't have to lug around a FireWire drive.  I don't have to make sure that the computer I'm working on has FireWire ports.  I can access my documents from any computer (including Windows machines).  I will get things like .Mac auto-syncing via iSync when it comes out in September (that will be awesome).  Plus I get backup and virus software.

You conveniently leave out the good features and focus only on the price.  Hmm.. I guess that makes you a troll, doesn't it?  Oh, wait, I knew you were already.

Oh, and by the way: it's really funny how you extrapolate all those problems with a PowerMac just from the fact that Apple charges $100/year for .Mac.  Does it have some magical feature that starts making non-subscribers have their Macs crash constantly?

And for the record, I believe you'd better watch out more for a company that performs outrageous illegal actions just to dominate the computer market.  Yet you seem to hound Steve Jobs for one little statement.  Sheesh  talk about a double standard here.

*sigh*  I wish some company would make a web browser that automatically filters out statements from idiotic trolls.


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## azosx (Jul 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by hugheba _
> *Umm... we bitched enough about the eMac... and we got it. *



You got eMac because nobody in the education market was buying.


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## boi (Jul 17, 2002)

he's not a troll. he's unbiased. everything he said (minus the cosmetic issue... what was that all about?) was true. the only outrage i see is charging for the email addy. if apple only made this free, i'd be happy, and so would a lot of other people.
by the way, doesn't X come with appleworks? that opens office stuff.


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## boi (Jul 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by azosx _
> *
> 
> You got eMac because nobody in the education market was buying.   *



is there an article on this somewhere? i could've sworn it was because people were whining that they couldn't one. it's a great computer that fills in a market niche.


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## simX (Jul 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by boi _
> *he's not a troll. he's unbiased. everything he said (minus the cosmetic issue... what was that all about?) was true. the only outrage i see is charging for the email addy. if apple only made this free, i'd be happy, and so would a lot of other people.
> by the way, doesn't X come with appleworks? that opens office stuff. *



Give me a break, boi.  He sees this one thing as a way to start bashing the Mac platform for things like MICROSOFT outrageously charging for their office program on the Mac.  He blames Apple for that.

And by the way.. AppleWorks is $79 and can open Microsoft Office files perfectly.  I think $79 is just a teensy bit less than $2000, don't you think?


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## simX (Jul 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by azosx _
> *
> 
> You got eMac because nobody in the education market was buying.   *



Would you like to back that statement up with some evidence, or be like a normal little troll and just say things that are completely untrue?


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## boi (Jul 17, 2002)

i'm not against you or anyone. i'm sure he doesn't like being called a troll when he's just being unbiased. everyone just be  happy and pray that we get our @mac.com addys for free ^_^.


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## simX (Jul 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by boi _
> *i'm not against you or anyone. i'm sure he doesn't like being called a troll when he's just being unbiased. everyone just be  happy and pray that we get our @mac.com addys for free ^_^. *



Like I said, "completely unbiased" does not constitute blaming Apple for things that Microsoft has done (charge outrageous prices for Microsoft Office).

"Completely unbiased" does not constitute spreading misinformation that you have to spend "$2000" to get Microsoft Office files to open, when you can actually buy AppleWorks for $79 (and it is bundled free with iMacs, eMacs, and iBooks).  His exaggeration isn't the point  it's that he's just saying that you have to spend a lot of money to open Windows files on the Mac, which is completely untrue.

"Completely unbiased" does not constitute saying untrue things about eMac sales in the education market.

Oh, and "completely unbiased" does not mean ignoring all of the illegal things that Microsoft has done and jumping on this .Mac fiasco.


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## azosx (Jul 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by simX _
> *azosx:  Get a life.  Just because Apple starts charging for a free service doesn't mean you have to switch platforms.  And you know why .Mac is worth it?  Because I don't have to lug around a FireWire drive.  I don't have to make sure that the computer I'm working on has FireWire ports.  I can access my documents from any computer (including Windows machines).  I will get things like .Mac auto-syncing via iSync when it comes out in September (that will be awesome).  Plus I get backup and virus software.
> 
> You conveniently leave out the good features and focus only on the price.  Hmm.. I guess that makes you a troll, doesn't it?  Oh, wait, I knew you were already.
> ...



It sounds like I touched a nerve with SimX.  I wasn't trolling, everything I said was true.  I'm experiencing it right now with my Mac.

Office v.X cost me around $400, Adobe Photoshop 7 another $500, it's been an expensive month.

And no, I would have not been able to open all my Windows files and documents "seemlessly" without these purchases.  It's funny how Apple neglects to mention the notion that additional software may be required.

Apple really shafted some people this time around.  Their switch campaign should now be renamed to "bait & switch" because esentially that's what they've done, especially with their migration to .mac.

Many will switch to a Mac from PC then realize the initial investment was just one of many that it's going to take to get their new Mac in line with their old PC.

They sold everyone on the idea that the .mac email would be free, forever, getting you to use iTools and becoming dependent on it.  Now they are taking it all away from you unless you're willing to fork over $100 anually.  That's a lot of cash for very little substinance.

It's called bait & switch.  MS and Yahoo did it as well with their email services.  The only difference is they continue to offer free basic services.  

It's not going to affect me because I never used iTools.  But I sincerely feel for all those who are going to have to change their email and find a new solution.  What a terrible inconvience is will likely be.


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## simX (Jul 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by azosx _
> *It sounds like I touched a nerve with SimX.  I wasn't trolling, everything I said was true.  I'm experiencing it right now with my Mac.*



You know, it's polite to talk to people directly rather than referring to them in the third person.  But I guess you wouldn't care anyway.

And yes, you touched a nerve, because everybody (especially you) is blowing this completely out of proportion.

*



			Office v.X cost me around $400, Adobe Photoshop 7 another $500, it's been an expensive month.
		
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*
Nobody made you buy Office v.X.  $400 (isn't it $499?) is outrageous for a suite of Office apps like that when $79 AppleWorks will do just fine.  And Photoshop has nothing to do with this argument because you'd still have to pay for that on Windows.

*



			And no, I would have not been able to open all my Windows files and documents "seemlessly" without these purchases.  It's funny how Apple neglects to mention the notion that additional software may be required.
		
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*
Yes, additional software like AppleWorks... which is included with all iMacs, eMacs, and iBooks.  You probably got a professional Mac so Apple (stupidly) doesn't bundle it, but it's certainly a better deal than $500 for MS office.

*



			Apple really shafted some people this time around.  Their switch campaign should now be renamed to "bait & switch" because esentially that's what they've done, especially with their migration to .mac.

Many will switch to a Mac from PC then realize the initial investment was just one of many that it's going to take to get their new Mac in line with their old PC.
		
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*
Actually, no.  You conveniently (again) forget that there's all the digital hub applications, there's the awesome OS, and there's the high quality (different from high-end features like DDR RAM) of the parts used in Apple's hardware.  That's what the beauty of the Mac platform is.

But of course you just concentrate on the .Mac fiasco.

*



			They sold everyone on the idea that the .mac email would be free, forever, getting you to use iTools and becoming dependent on it.  Now they are taking it all away from you unless you're willing to fork over $100 anually.  That's a lot of cash for very little substinance.

It's called bait & switch.  MS and Yahoo did it as well with their email services.  The only difference is they continue to offer free basic services.
		
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*
As I said before, $100 is very reasonable for the features Apple is offering.  But of course you just look at iDisk and the e-mail account.

*



			It's not going to affect me because I never used iTools.  But I sincerely feel for all those who are going to have to change their email and find a new solution.  What a terrible inconvience is will likely be.
		
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*
I agree with you here.  It was a bad decision to axe the free e-mail accounts.  But that doesn't justify the Apple-bashing that you've posted above and with your previous posts.


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## themacko (Jul 17, 2002)

You've got to be an absolute moron if you think you can open Adobe Photoshop / Illustrator or Microsoft Office files without having to buy that software.


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## azosx (Jul 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by simX _
> *
> 
> Nobody made you buy Office v.X.  $400 (isn't it $499?) is outrageous for a suite of Office apps like that when $79 AppleWorks will do just fine.  And Photoshop has nothing to do with this argument because you'd still have to pay for that on Windows.
> ...


*

I'm not bashing Apple.  I love my PB G4 DVI.  I'm just being honest.  People bash MS to no end around here, why don't you go jump on their asses?

No, AppleWorks won't work with my PowerPoint presentations, embedded Word documents and Outlook.  When you're a professional, you can't afford to goof around trying to find a solution in AppleWorks or whatever when Office if what you've been using and what you use it for is mission critical.

Preview really does little for my Photoshop work as well and the built in cd burning OS X offers pales in comparison to Nero.

I didn't switch, I still use my PC but I want my PB to be just as affective and I for one don't mind spending the money to get it on par with my PC but many users making the switch are not going to realize the potential investment way beyond just buying the iMac.

Yes, Office is outrageously priced but I needed it and for what I use it for, I can't afford to pirate it.

I'm not turning this .mac fiasco into a excuse to bash Apple.  It doesn't affect me whatsoever, I don't use iTools.  My concern lies in the millions that do and are going to be seriously inconvieneced.

So I bring several ideas to light that Apple is esentially pulling a bait & switch with there ad campaign and now .mac.  So what?  Does what I'm saying not have any merit whatsoever?

My Microsoft switch back campaign was just a parody.  Don't get so up-tight about a joke.  You call me a troll because of it then continue to bash MS to no end in all your follow-up posts.  What gives?

What is true is Apple is skating on thin ice with Microsoft and now with their user base.  This has potential to backfire terribly on both fronts.  I don't know what Jobs has been drinking but he really just needs to simma dow na.  He's becoming too agressive too soon and one wrong move is going to cost him dearly.*


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## azosx (Jul 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by themacko _
> *You've got to be an absolute moron if you think you can open Adobe Photoshop / Illustrator or Microsoft Office files without having to buy that software. *



All I was saying is the switch campaign makes it seem as if everything will open "seamlessly" just by the grace and magic of OS X.

People dump their PC for the Mac, find out nothing opens without dumping hundreds of dollars more into the machine, this is called bait & switch.

Switching to a Mac is an expensive investment, not just because of the hardware but because of the software as well.

You have to realize as well PC users expect MS Office to come with their computers.  It's almost impossible to buy a PC without it.  PC users take little things like this for granted and it is a shock to find Macs don't really ship with any productivity applications like Office.  

Apple is more concerned with their "digital hub" wich many PC users could care less about.

The migration from PC to Mac is a little more difficult and a lot more expensive than Apple makes it seem.


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## simX (Jul 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by azosx _
> *
> 
> I'm not bashing Apple.  I love my PB G4 DVI.  I'm just being honest.  People bash MS to no end around here, why don't you go jump on their asses?*



Because usually their bashing is founded.



> *No, AppleWorks won't work with my PowerPoint presentations, embedded Word documents and Outlook.  When you're a professional, you can't afford to goof around trying to find a solution in AppleWorks or whatever when Office if what you've been using and what you use it for is mission critical.
> 
> Preview really does little for my Photoshop work as well and the built in cd burning OS X offers pales in comparison to Nero.*



I'll give you the PowerPoint thing (WTF is an embedded Word doc, and what files does Outlook have?).  But no, themacko, I'm not an absolute moron  I was referring just to Word files.  I didn't think about PowerPoint.



> *So I bring several ideas to light that Apple is esentially pulling a bait & switch with there ad campaign and now .mac.  So what?  Does what I'm saying not have any merit whatsoever?*



You've been making more sense when you clarify your positions.  But saying things like that the eMac wasn't selling and that's why Apple opened up to everybody is just moronic when you don't back it up.  Ditto with many of your other statements.



> *My Microsoft switch back campaign was just a parody.  Don't get so up-tight about a joke.*



I know it was.  But it echos exactly what you think.

*



			What is true is Apple is skating on thin ice with Microsoft and now with their user base.  This has potential to backfire terribly on both fronts.  I don't know what Jobs has been drinking but he really just needs to simma dow na.  He's becoming too agressive too soon and one wrong move is going to cost him dearly.
		
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*
I dunno.  Maybe.  But many Windows users are ignorant of other platforms like the Mac and they would stand to benefit to switch.  Plus, things like the lifespan of a Macintosh and the less time/money you have to put into troubleshooting haven't been brought up yet and they're probably best left to a different thread.

But Apple's Real People campaign is dead on: to show regular users that many Windows users have switched and that their switch has been comfortable.  All of the people in the ad campaign are not actors.. they're saying exactly what they think.

If Microsoft has to "act" on this aggressiveness, they'll probably just follow through with Kevin Browne's threat to axe Microsoft Office from the Mac platform, showing just how much of an illegal monopoly they really are.  If Microsoft's users conscientiously choose Windows over the Macintosh because they have at least used the Mac for a bit, I'm fine with that.  But there's nothing wrong in educating the masses that the Mac is actually a viable platform, and that's all that Apple is doing here.


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## jeb1138 (Jul 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by simX _
> *Would you like to back that statement up with some evidence, or be like a normal little troll and just say things that are completely untrue? *


Here's to that.  Azosx, you seem like a relatively smart guy, but posts like the above  are far from "few and far between" from you.  It takes so little to make one's posts useful in a forum like this -- a link, some specific details, one or two specific examples, and an even tone.

It also takes very little to make them useless, e.g. throwing out names, vagues references or muddled opinions with no substantial explanation.  If you feel you haven't the time to respond with care due the tremendous amount of replying you "have" to do, you might consider that fewer, more substantive posts would contribute significantly more to the community we have here.

There are better ways of disagreeing than vengeful, acidic and angrily provocative remarks.  Your incessant, angry criticism towards and replies to some of the most respected and helpful members of this forum (Ed Spruiell, SimX, etc. -- not myself) only emphasize this point.  There are more constructive ways of sharing your opinion and having an intellectual discussion.  These include building on others' ideas, offering original solutions, bringing in outside information, and, on occasion, offering _constructive_ criticism.

You're not the only one guilty of this and I'm not completely innocent myself.  However, for the number of posts you make you offer very little of substance.

Shall we let the man speak for himself?


> _Originally posted by azosx_*
> "OS X's greatest strength is UNIX, which may also turn out to be it's greatest weakness. It's 30 year architecture is about to become obsolete."
> 
> "'Blackcomb' will be completely new and unlike anything seen before. It's major strength will be a completely new filesystem expected to crush the competition."
> ...



The problem is not with the ideas behind these statements.  The problem results from you never offering any _real information_ or even links with these brash statement, and from the anger in every one of them.

That's my opinion, at least.


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## boi (Jul 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by simX _
> *
> 
> Like I said, "completely unbiased" does not constitute blaming Apple for things that Microsoft has done (charge outrageous prices for Microsoft Office).
> *



i didn't say "completely unbiased. if you're going to quote me, do so correctly. i was just tired of you jumping on azosx because he offers a different opinion. he IS unbiased and he did NOT blame apple. he's just blaming apple because they said his stuff will open flawlessly. it did not.



> *
> "Completely unbiased" does not constitute spreading misinformation that you have to spend "$2000" to get Microsoft Office files to open, when you can actually buy AppleWorks for $79 (and it is bundled free with iMacs, eMacs, and iBooks).  His exaggeration isn't the point  it's that he's just saying that you have to spend a lot of money to open Windows files on the Mac, which is completely untrue.
> *



this has nothing to do with him being bias. it has everything to do with his exaggeration. don't talk to me, i'm just trying to keep the peace here without name calling and bashing. try to have an open mind, man. no one is out to get you.



> *
> "Completely unbiased" does not constitute saying untrue things about eMac sales in the education market.
> *



if you'll notice, i ALREADY asked about this. chill man.



> *
> Oh, and "completely unbiased" does not mean ignoring all of the illegal things that Microsoft has done and jumping on this .Mac fiasco. *


"yeah, well, apple may charge for stuff you can get for free, but... Microsoft has done illegal stuff! yeah! take that!" c'mon, microsoft's illegal doings are NOT the issue. you jumped on azosx because he complained about his experience with Apple. 

try and be civil peepz. most of all, be happy ^_^. this forum is just for fun and info! Share The Wealth!

- chill.
[ boi ]


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## azosx (Jul 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by simX _
> *
> 
> Because usually their bashing is founded.
> ...


*

By embedded Word docs I mean when you create docs with Word that use features only specific to Word like inserting PP presentations, graphs, images, special characters and formatting.  When you try to open these doc files in other apps, they look like a garbled mess.  As for Outlook, I can't transfer my address book and emails to AppleWorks can I?  It's nice to have a complete intergrated solution like MS Office.

My eMac statement has merit as well.  Why would Apple release it for education only only to release it to everyone less than a month later?  It was never intended to compete with the new iMac and threatened to saturate their G4 line completely.  Apple needed to start moving stock before the next quarter and keeping the eMac in the education department wasn't doing this.  You're right, no hard evidence ever pointed to this but the suggestion was made by serveral who reported on it's release for everyone.  It makes more sense than people demanded it.  Apple's main concern is their bottom line, everything else comes second.  They wouldn't do anything for their customers that would cost them finacially.

Much of the MS crap posted around here is unfounded as well.  The most popular right now being Palladium.

I don't think MS will pull support for Apple in light of it's recent conviction for monopolistic practicies.  Jobs is betting on this and using it to his advantage.  MS has other ways though to put the squeeze on Apple and if they can show they are losing money by producing Office for Mac, they would have every reason in the world to pull support for it.*


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## DualG4X (Jul 17, 2002)

sim people are pissed at apple and making a big deal because .mac now cost 99dls, and u say that its not that much for what u get, well yeah but no one needs all that crap to beging with, all they need is that 5mb .mac email account.  and apple knows it , so their adding some extra features and charging everyone for all of them. that to me is a a really bad scam


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## evildan (Jul 17, 2002)

Okay here it is...

Sombody needs to take it from here...

-----------

To: Apple Computer, Mr. Steve Jobs 

We, the undersigned, would like you to consider the  following as a voice of protest against Apple's proposed "upgrades" to the .mac service (formally known as iTools). The services for which Apple has decided to charge for and the manner in which they have announced this decision, mandate our response. 

Our primary worry is the loss of our email address. Most of us, the undersigned, have embraced what we feel to be the best email service on the internet in iTools. We have distributed our email addresses to friends, family and co-workers as a way of promoting our pride in being a member of the Apple community. We feel that by charging for these services, that were once free, the .Mac service is no longer a useful way of conveying these messages to our PC counterparts. 

Although email is by far the most widely used feature of the iTool services amongst us, it should be noted that we also have concerns regarding the other services as well.

Homepage, iCards and iDisk were services that iTools offered free of charge. The simple fact that Apple has now decided to charge us for these services does nothing but inspire a boycott of this and all future proposed free-services Apple might announce. How can the Apple user community ever embark in a trusted relationship and dependency of a free service knowing full well that Apple might take it away with little to no warning. Some of us have had our @mac.com mail addresses for years. And in that time, we have established a relationship, commitment and dependency on the once free internet services Apple provided. Now we have been informed that this service will be terminated, much to our disappointment.

Virus Protection, Backup and Support further scoff the proposed purchaser of the .Mac package, as these are utilities and options that are widely available on the web for free.

McAffe is considered, by the undersigned, to be an inferior product with a higher price tag in comparison to its competitors (Such as VirusBarrier from Intego software).

Tech Support for iTools is unnecessary as it seems to have always run with great success in the past. And there are no widely known compatibility or performance issues that would mandate Apples decision to dedicate a support staff for it.

Backup, another .mac feature, is also a considerable disappointment which hardly entices us to purchase the .mac package. In addition to the fact that 3rd party backup utilities are widely dispersed as freeware on the web, backup will no doubt be an unpopular feature, in our opinion, simply for the fact that we feel people are not ready, or willing, to backup sensitive data on a remote server as a primary option. This might function as a 2nd or, more likely, a 3rd backup option for most, but that hardly values an annual subscription fee. 

These fore mentioned services obtained in the .mac package hardly make up for the annual subscription fee Apple proposes we pay. So as a result we end up overpaying for a once fre email account. This seems very silly to us. 

In your keynote (July 17th 9AM ET) you mentioned Apples shift in philosophy as a result of the trend associated with other companies that offered free file, web and email services. It is our opinion that these services failed because of their popularity. As the demand for these services occurred, more server space and resources were required, resulting the overall profitability to decrease. Thus a charge was associated with the free service and the bulk of the user population left or found alternative services elsewhere. We feel Apple will see a similar trend, as a result of their mistake in charging for once free services.

It was our understanding that iTools was designed as a service to current Macintosh owners and would also entice people to buy Macintosh products. Instead Apple has turned it into a way to make money off of something that was promised to be free for life.

We realize that Apple operates as a company, with its primary function focused on profitability. We also realize that these services cannot continue to be free of charge for life. However, there is a simple solution to this dilemma. 

Allow a limited free  option to the .mac services. Provide at least email services for free. Those that wish to upgrade could be charged whatever you deem to be fair and reasonable. Popularity in the email service will serve as a promotional tool to the upgraded .mac services. 

In summation Apples .mac services hardly constitutes the proposed $99/year value. We suggest a reformation of those services and an alternative free option for those of us who dont find the value of the other features. Furthermore we  consider the .mac package to counteract Apples digital-hub philosophy by charging for otherwise free services which distinguish Apples product line from their competitors.  

Sincerely, 

The Undersigned


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## Captain Code (Jul 17, 2002)

So, Photoshop and Nero come with a PC do they??(sarcasm if you can't tell)

You can't complain about having to buy Photoshop for the Mac, or complain about CD burning in OS X and comparing it to an application you bought.

MS only integrated CD burning into their OS after Apple brought it out in OS X.


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## azosx (Jul 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by devonferns _
> *So, Photoshop and Nero come with a PC do they??(sarcasm if you can't tell)
> 
> You can't complain about having to buy Photoshop for the Mac, or complain about CD burning in OS X and comparing it to an application you bought.
> ...



No, Photoshop doesn't but Nero or Easy CD Creator usually do and they are a lot better for burning CDs than what OS X has to offer.


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## azosx (Jul 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jeb1138 _
> *
> Here's to that.  Azosx, you seem like a relatively smart guy, but posts like the above  are far from "few and far between" from you.  It takes so little to make one's posts useful in a forum like this -- a link, some specific details, one or two specific examples, and an even tone.
> 
> ...



The problem is I am usually 1 of 10-15 users in a post offering a different point of view.  It's quite difficult to be very detailed when I'm trying to reply back to several different users at once.

Your quote refers to the Palladium discussion I got involved with.  Nobody posting the "merits" of Pallidium had any substantial evidence to back up their claims as well.

My posts are fairly reflective.  The more detailed the discussion becomes, the more to the point I become by backing up what I'm saying with hard evidence. 

Posts like the one you quoted me from were basically just general discussion and little to no hard evidence was being presented on either side.

I'm not trying to change anyone's way of thinking by posting my different point of views, I just try and present a different way of thinking that may or may not give others something more to think about and discuss.

As for being angry or critical I don't quite agree.  SimX turned to name calling in this discussion, I did not.  He did not attempt to build upon my idea but squash it in it's tracks.  Through my amazement and I think for the first time, someone actually discussed the merit of what I was saying and didn't follow SimX in flaming me.  Honestly, depending on the time of day my mood changes.  I mean no disrespect to people if I appear course.  Being a new member of a forum where everyone is against you can create a tension most visible in one's writings.


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## Captain Code (Jul 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by azosx _
> *
> 
> No, Photoshop doesn't but Nero or Easy CD Creator usually do and they are a lot better for burning CDs than what OS X has to offer. *



Yes, they come with the burner when you buy it, not with the computer.

If you buy a burner for a Mac, it will most likely come with Toast.


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## xaqintosh (Jul 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by hugheba _
> *Umm... we bitched enough about the eMac... and we got it. *


Folks: Keep up the bitchin'


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## Snowball (Jul 17, 2002)

I can't quite figure out how this thread has gone so wildly off topic, but evildan, let me be the first to congratulate you on that great letter. It gets the point across in a very effective manner.
The only problem is that it would be easier to start a new petition than get special permission from petitiononline.com's admins to revise the original petition. I really hope Steve Jobs does read it, because all of it rings very true. Apple has messed up iTools, and enough users are angry enough to try to fix the problem.


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## tieng (Jul 17, 2002)

The petition is a great idea; please sign it. In addition, if you can take the time, submit individual feedback; individual comments generally carry a lot more weight.

I would propose that 5 MB email and 5 MB homepages stay free; it's great advertising for Apple. We should all tell them as much in the feedback we send them.

http://www.apple.com/feedback/mac/gtm.html


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## tk4two1 (Jul 17, 2002)

I think the main point here is that a lot of people dont care that apple is charging $99 for .mac but what they are mad about is that they are being forced to pay if they want to keep their @mac.com email address.  Now, I personaly only use iTools email and nothing else, I could care less about iDisk because I just don't need it.  As far as the homepage.mac, I had just started fooling around with it the other day and I really find it useless for me.  If we could convince apple to keep hosting our free email that would satisfy me completely, I really think it would satisfy most people who are mad.  I do think that it kind of sucks that Steve Jobs did say FOREVER when intoducing iTools.  If it comes down to it though I will fork out the dough just for my stupid @mac.com address, I will probably then use the iDisk and homepage because I'm paying for it and refuse to waste my money.  If you want to feel better about paying for the .mac service just think of it this way... It only costs $8.25 a month.  I know I can afford $8.25 a month, maybe it will get me to quit smoking or quit spending money on more frivilous things.


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## xaqintosh (Jul 17, 2002)

See, now they'll be all like: "See! It IS a good idea! because of .Mac, people are quitting smoking!"


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## squidbite (Jul 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by azosx _
> *
> 
> It sounds like I touched a nerve with SimX.  I wasn't trolling, everything I said was true.  I'm experiencing it right now with my Mac.
> ...




Yes, and Apple is the first company to give away services and then charge for them.  I've been reading your posts for weeks now and am amused, if not shocked, at how you preach your awareness of "the real world" and "how capitalism works" in some posts, and then go and defy all of that with a few inane remarks.

Just two words for you as an example: Net Zero. Ever heard of them? AOL. You know this company? Companies changing their policies is a practice that has been around since there have been companies.  You are the prototypical basher who pretends to own a Mac and be part of the group, yet every statement that makes it onto this forum is contradictory to that.  I wouldn't be surprised at this point if you are a PAID basher, and this is why I think so:

1) You induce just the right amount of empathy, or camraderie in this community, but then take every single opportunity to bash Apple and all Mac products.
2) Your command (and I use that term loosely) of the English language approaches the high school level, and that's par for the course for basher-speak.
3) Every single one of your posts is a reply to somebody else's. The true basher has nothing substantive (notice the spelling, you troll) to add to a forum, but rather is compelled to tee off on what everybody else says.

Having said that, I'm not happy with having to pay for .mac email, but then again I don't use it.  I think it's a slap in the face to a lot of devoted Mac users, and is really appalling timing given the "Switch" campaign.

Hey, why not just be happy that you have your crappy little plastic beige Windows  box with all that blazing processing speed? Never mind that it's all for naught if you can't form two complete sentences, and that working in Windows is as much fun as, well, working in Windows.


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## tk4two1 (Jul 17, 2002)

Yea, I better go out right now and smoke a couple.  One for me and one for apple.   Maybe if I say I will smoke 5 extra cigarettes a day untill I have to acctually pay for the .mac upgrade they will see that as a worse thing and think I won't even have enough money after that to even buy another Mac ever again so then they will completely trash the .mac idea and appologise to all the Mac users in the world and give out free copies of Jaguire to everyone who owns a Mac and also everyone who pledges to switch to a Mac.


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## azosx (Jul 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by devonferns _
> *
> 
> Yes, they come with the burner when you buy it, not with the computer.
> ...



No, that's not what I meant.  Nero and Roxio have deals with many major PC manufaturers that allow their software to ship with them.


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## bbloke (Jul 17, 2002)

I agree with some of the recent comments about the primary problem being the removal of features, rather than paying for extras.  When I first heard the rumors, I found the name change from "iTools" to ".Mac" somewhat cheesy and somewhat ominous, but thought little more of it.  Now that details have been confirmed, I am only annoyed by the feeling that a service is to be *removed*, rather than worrying about paying for new features.  I believe iTools was once advertised as being just for Mac users and would be "for life;" all the more reason for buying a Mac, if you will, especially as it was and is a minority platform (unfortunately!).  

If Apple were to maintain the existing (and somewhat limited) iTools features for free and provide users with the *option* of paying for much enhanced features, then I would be *entirely* happy with that!  What bothers me is the feeling that we have been practically "robbed," rather than being given extra choice.  I would have been happy to consider paying for the extra services if my iTools account was secure and was free, but the feeling that I have had options "forcibly" taken away from me causes resentment.  This issue may not be a cataclysmic disaster, but it does alienate Apple from its users.  I hope that Apple may consider an alternative proposal.


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## xaqintosh (Jul 17, 2002)

good. the only problem is you'll eventually die at that pace and fail to be able to experience the full essence of Jaguar, so don't indulge yourslef TOO much


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## alexachucarro (Jul 17, 2002)

mail should be free. Jobs may have bitched about microsoft, but they still have FREE email. Now we don't. Thats sh!te.


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## azosx (Jul 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by squidbite _
> *
> 
> 
> ...



What's funny is you seemed to miss the last paragraph you quoted from me in which I stated MS and AOL have done the same thing with their services.  

I'm not passing the blame to anyone specifically, especially not Apple.  It's just sh*tty that companies feel the need to do this.  Apple is obviously no different than MS, AOL and NetZero in this respect.

Your command of the English language is obviously reflected in your PC and Windows bashing.  Good for you.  I'm glad you pointed that out.  Kudos.


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## 8thDegreeSavage (Jul 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by azosx _
> *When has Apple ever over-turned a decision at the request of it's user base?
> 
> Maybe they have but I don't seem to recall them ever doing so.
> ...


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## BSDimwit (Jul 17, 2002)

I can see how using a .mac email address can be a symbolic gesture of support for apple, but how many of you people really use it?  Didn't everyone get an email address when they signed up with their ISP?  I admit that I signed up for my itools account when I bought my powerbook, but I already had internet access and an email address...didn't rest you as well?  Don't flame me too hard, I am honestly just asking.

For me, losing itools is no big deal.  No I won't be paying for it... it offers no value for me.  Unless you are on broadband, backing up anything to a remote server could literally take days over a slower internet connection.  I am one of the unfortunate many who can't get DSL or cable modem, and while I have 128k ISDN(pricy  ), uploading something to my idisk takes about 1 minute per meg...  not fun if I wanted to back up my entire documents directory or my mp3 directory.

Virus protection?  Hehehe... a mac with permissions set properly shouldn't really have to worry all that much(providing you don't use the administrator account for daily use).  Besides, how many virus' are written for macs anyway...sometimes its good to have 5% market share.

I do, however, sympathize with those of you who are upset about the broken promise of "Free for Life," but if your .mac address is really that important to you, $9/month really isn't all that much.

Still, even at $130 I will definately be upgrading to 10.2.   Being the BSD freak that I am,  how could I not?


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## mindbend (Jul 17, 2002)

1. .Mac was inevitable, saw it coming a mile a way. Yes, it's good old fashioned bait and switch. Apple is as guilty as any other company that wants to actually make money. Here's a clue, never depend on anything that is free, cuz someday it won't be.

2. The SwitchYeah, the TV ads definitely make it seem easier than it is. "Opening" an Office file is nice, but not the same as the real deal. In the business world, you either have Office or you have trouble. Deal with it. (I got mine for $5 through an educational supplier. It's not that hard. And if you think I feel one bit guilty, you're wrong.)

3. The PetitionThat's like voting Libertarian...a wasted vote. But hey, if you makes you feel good. It's funny to think that, of all the people on the planet, you would actually address it to Steve Jobs. He is probably the least likely person alive to give a crap what you/we think. (I love Stevo BTW).


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## d8n_two (Jul 17, 2002)

I'm trying not to gripe and moan too much.  The reason I signed up for iTools is because I move around alot and rarely stay on the same ISP for more than six months due to the moves.  Mac.com e-mail could move with me and I wouldn't have to send out those "my new email is..." messages all the time.  I don't use iDisk, iCards, or HomePage.  So, it's just not logical to spend $8.50/month on top of ISP charges for an e-mail account.  Anyway, I politely expressed these concerns to Mac feedback.  Will it do any good?  I doubt it.  I guess for free, "moveable" e-mail I'll have to deal with  spam-ridden Hotmail or Yahoo! although I don't want to.

d8n_two


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## 8thDegreeSavage (Jul 17, 2002)

Well yeah its odd you have to pay for an option feature that is ingrained into the OS, apart from online fees. I mean sh!t....it was a pretty savage burn by apple to say "OK you guys, pay up or get out..we thought we could do this and now we cant"...Sttttteeeeevie puuuuuuuleeeeezzze. Apple totally got people all hyped about having this little piece of internet pie that was A PART of 10.1+ until 10.2?
now all of a sudden they decide to do the switcharooonie on us??....Uh uh companies as large as Apple know damn well they are going to start charging, in fact they should have known way before offering it for free "FOREVER"...and yeah that includes the 25meg chunk. 



Jobs looked parched and nervous during the announcing of the price......cause he knows he is screwing his own people...the people that made him who he is.


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## Cheryl (Jul 17, 2002)

2872 signatures 

I signed.


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## Dime5150 (Jul 17, 2002)

I signed. I too feel that I have been lied to. But oh well life goes on I guess. 

For those of you who enjoyed mac.com for email I found another service that does offer free POP email. Yes they are a rarity:

http://www.hotpop.com/index.jsp

Is it just me or did this MacWorld seem to be the worst one? Oh and I guess 10.2 has nothing to do with 10.1 or 10.0, because you have to pay full price for 10.2 regardless what you have.. HAHHA what a joke Steve. Thanks for nothing. I guess you gave piracy a nice shot in the arm come August 24th.


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## TheBattman (Jul 17, 2002)

I am afraid you are correct - the full price upgrade policy will wiz  off quite a few people.  Especially when we are being reamed by the .Mac fiasco as well.


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## Koelling (Jul 17, 2002)

I used my @mac.com account cause I thought it would be permanent. I don't care about storage space, and while I do host my web site on mac.com it's only for the advertisement factor. I have a university account for free but I don't use it because it will die in 3 years when I graduate. 3 years is looking like eternity considering I only used @mac for a year.

What I really want, is an alias. How hard can that be? f*ckMicrosoft.com gives away free aliases and charges for POP mail accounts, maybe I'll use that. I want to show my support for Apple. Let my employers know that I have will power and I'm not going to miss their mail in all the junk mail I receive through Hotmail. I just feel robbed and think over and over in my head a line I've used against Microsoft so many times. 

The first hit of heroin is free


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## efoivx (Jul 17, 2002)

I don't care about anything but my email! it was represented as free with a mac. I am a long time mac user 15 years as wellas a mac software developer and use macs in my everyday life. I make purchase recomendations. I have given out my mac.com email address everyplace thinking it's one I could really rely on!
bzzzzt!!!! wrong now we get screwed for being loyal and trusting.

It will be nearly impossible to ever contact every person using my mac.com email address.  I have NO USE for the old iTools never ever used it. and have no use for the new .mac system... it's a system set up for lame people who have zero computer skills... I have a perfect back up system already installed.... I copy my entire live functioning system to my local server and can restore from a live searchable copy at all times in fact I can restore my whole OS with installed software and all if it came to it.

the very least apple could do is continue to allow pop3 access with a mailbox size of 2-5 megs for free with no other .mac services available

I am unbeleivably pissed about this and have sent this to apples feedback as well.


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## evildan (Jul 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Snowball _
> *I can't quite figure out how this thread has gone so wildly off topic, but evildan, let me be the first to congratulate you on that great letter. It gets the point across in a very effective manner.*



Thanks Snowball... I think it covers just about everything I could think of as to why this .mac is a bad idea.



> *
> The only problem is that it would be easier to start a new petition than get special permission from petitiononline.com's admins to revise the original petition. I really hope Steve Jobs does read it, because all of it rings very true. Apple has messed up iTools, and enough users are angry enough to try to fix the problem. *



I agree 100% where can we go to publish this letter? Anyone have server space they would be willing to donate?

I'm going to submit the idea to a couple of places in an attempt to get it published. I'd appreciate any help.


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## mindbend (Jul 17, 2002)

1. Don't ask me where to locate it, but I once actually read the terms of the iTools service and it was made very clear that they [Apple] can drop the service at any damn time they want. That time is now. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a shame, but in case anyone hasn't noticed, the economy as a whole and especially the tech industry is in a slump. Apple has to make money to keep giving us what we want. It works both ways.

2. What's the word? It's coming to me, oh yeah, "Hypocrites " I think is the one I'm looking for. "We want this, we want that!" [e.g. Jaguar] So the chants go, but God forbid Apple actually charge for it. Um, it's like a business and stuff. I think Apple is stretching it a bit with the full $129 price, but again, the whole ecomony thing and all. I, for one, am elated to get Quartz Extreme, better PC networking and a few of the other features. Price is secondary. (Did I miss USB printer sharing? I don't remember seeing it in the feature list. Please tell me I missed it.)

3. Piracy as "payback"To those who somehow  feel like they can suddenly start pirating OS 10.2 willy nilly just cuz they don't agree with Apple's business model, please leave the Mac community immediately.

Have a nice day.


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## TheBattman (Jul 17, 2002)

It's hypocritical to complain that Apple forgot the "free email for life" pledge they made to us?


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## evildan (Jul 17, 2002)

> 1. Don't ask me where to locate it, but I once actually read the terms of the iTools service and it was made very clear that they [Apple] can drop the service at any damn time they want. That time is now. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a shame, but in case anyone hasn't noticed, the economy as a whole and especially the tech industry is in a slump. Apple has to make money to keep giving us what we want. It works both ways.



Yeah, I'd like you to locate it.

I'll post this again, and it will be the last time I post it, so read me loud and clear.

I couldn't care less if Apple charges for a services. It's the manner in which we were informed of the change that has me upset.

And yes, I think email accounts should be free and there are a host of other companies that share my opinion... Yahoo & Hotmail, etc.

Apple has to be crazy to think that this is going to generate any money for them. The ONLY way this is going to help Apple is that they are now playing both sides.

A) If this .mac thing takes off, they generate cash from the subscriptions
B) if it isn't popular, then they can cut back on servers, etc to save money

You're right in saying the nation is in a financial slump, no one can deny that, but Apple is doing something very M$'ish today. They are going back on their word. And if you're not upset, you should be... Dont confuse me with someone who wants everything for free, I dont. I pay for my software and my hardware like most users here. I buy my voting rights and voice concerning all Apple issues. I dont find these items of concern to be gibberish or a waste of time. 

In the near future Apple community members will be cut off from a service that they have come to depend on. Apple provided the promise when they offered iTools. We didnt ask for it. Apple provided it under the conditions that it was going to be free for life.

I have to admit I was shocked to hear such a promise, but nevertheless I took Apple for their word when Steve Jobs said it. 

Simple as that. I can go to a number of other hosts and get my free email... So why am I going to pay Apple for a service that I can get for free? Im not. And from the general outrage of users here either are they.

And we havent even considered the out-of-touch mac users yet. The people who will just see a stop in service. One day their email wont work so theyll visit Apples website to discover that they will now have to start paying for email. Then Id imagine theyll visit yahoo or hotmail and set themselves up with a free account. Because everybody knows you dont pay for email.

You are only promoting this type of behaviour if you blindly follow Apple. It is our right, privilege and responsibility to keep Apple in check with our protests. The people who were reaching for their wallets before Steve even finished his keynote should be concerned.


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## DualG4X (Jul 17, 2002)

Amen, evildan


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## gibbs (Jul 18, 2002)

Amen evildan. You said it 10x more eloquently than I even have the energy to attempt.

Im getting a little tired of the response "you know, companies have to make money" every time someone else complains about being shafted by their favorite company X. And thats exactly what Apple makes it look like, they are giving us all the "shaft".

At the very least, Apple is guilty of being very bad at PR.

There are right and wrong times to announce these kind of things.

Oh and one more thing. You dont keep your hard earned money by paying for every "deluxe" service that gets passed your way kids.


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## chemistry_geek (Jul 18, 2002)

I signed the petition, but I don't hink it's going to make any difference.  Apple is going to INCREASE profits independent of its users decisions.  How?  If people decide not to pay for .Mac, Apple's server costs are reduced.  If people pay for the overly priced .Mac service, Apple still makes money.  I think that the first thing that will happen is that people are not going to pay for .Mac.  A small percentage of people will decide to keep .Mac.  I'm willing to bet that Apple will have less than 50 Xserve units after this whole .Mac thing is underway after September.

oops, I should have read evildan's post...same thing I mentioned.


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## mindbend (Jul 18, 2002)

I'll look up my info on the iTools terms just as soon as evildan shows me where Apple explicitly stated that iTools was "free for life". You say Stevo said it. I"d like a URL of the movie clip and the timecode for that statement. (FWIW--I don't doubt for a second that he said it.)

In fact, I'm so sure I saw those terms I'll make a bet. No, you lay out the terms. I'm up for anything. Believe me, it's there. You think Apple is stupid enough to guarantee a life long free service with no "out clause". Not.

evildan wrote:
You are only promoting this type of behaviour if you blindly follow Apple. It is our right, privilege and responsibility to keep Apple in check with our protests. The people who were reaching for their wallets before Steve even finished his keynote should be concerned.

me write:
Nice try, but I have been among Apple's biggest critics over the last year. If you want blind followers, you've come to the right board, you just picked the wrong individual in this case. I don't mind.

The more I think about this, the more I agree with you guys, but only on the issue of email accounts. It is definitely wrong of Apple to lead people down that path and shut them down. I presume many people went so far as to get business cads, letterhead, etc. with their Apple email addresses. Apple should find a way to continue free email if nothing else.

As for the rest of iTools (.Mac), I think I"m actually going to pay for it. Do you know how much money I have made using Apple's stock music [DL'd from iTools] in my video projects? I could pay for .Mac for years. And the 100 Meg has been nice to throw client projects up temporarily for review. OK, now I'm just blabbing...

SUMMARY

1. "Terms" research challenge initiated 
2. Mindbend defends position of "blindness"
3. Mindbend concedes issue of frustration in regards to email
4. Mindbend blabs about nothing much


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## xaqintosh (Jul 18, 2002)

> _originally posted by btoneill on another thread_ *
> This is from the old iTools membership terms:
> 
> ----------------------------------
> ...


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## Dime5150 (Jul 18, 2002)

Its hypocritical to question a large companies business practices and pricing structures? Are you sure you don't work for microsoft? 

Nobody said they were going to pirate 10.2 because they are pissed. Its just a reality that since they are making all users pay 129 dollars for an upgrade (and yes it IS an UPGRADE) people are going to get it however they can to avoid this. 

Its a shame that they are turning there backs to the users that bought 10.0 and stuck through it all and when a new upgrade comes out they get no rebate or price cut.


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## xaqintosh (Jul 18, 2002)

I'm not bothered by jaguar's price at all. think of it as having paid $65 for 10.1 and $65 for Jaguar. Since I got the 10.1 upgrade CD for about $15 since I couldn't get to an Apple store, I got in on eBay :0


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## mindbend (Jul 18, 2002)

Re: 10.2 (not .Mac)
Only hypocritical to wish, demand, lust for new features and not be willing to pay for them. $129 seems like a bargain for what it gets me. I begged for em [features], now I've got em, and now I'm paying for em. Simple concept.

Re: .Mac
Indeed,  think it's reasonable for this thread to question this .Mac thing. I guess since I'm not affected by it, I just can't get worked up about it.


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## spitty27 (Jul 18, 2002)

I hope you guys check back at the site regularly because we hit 13281 signatures...well hope we make SOME kind of a difference


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## Dime5150 (Jul 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by mindbend _
> *Re: 10.2 (not .Mac)
> Only hypocritical to wish, demand, lust for new features and not be willing to pay for them. $129 seems like a bargain for what it gets me. I begged for em [features], now I've got em, and now I'm paying for em. Simple concept.
> 
> ...


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## mindbend (Jul 19, 2002)

Wow! I can't believe you guys got 13,281 sigs. I guess this really does mean something to you. Good luck. (seriously)


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## JohnnyV (Jul 19, 2002)

Anyway, http://www.PetitionOnline.com/iTol/petition.html 


17000+ when I signed


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## salsa (Jul 22, 2002)

please forgive me if I am off-topic. Just that I was impressed with the clarity & coherence of Evil Dan's letter.

Unfortunately, whoever took the initiative regarding the lack of scaled pricing or discounted prices for recent purchasers of Macs or OS X for the Jaguar upgrade doesn't have your facility with the English language. See *Petition Online Jaguar upgrade*

Several posts on another forum indicated they weren't about to sign a petition which is so poorly worded... but I think that misses the point! (see *MacFixIt lounge "Can Apple Ignore Irate Users"* 

If people also see fit to protest the lack of discounted prices of Jaguar, how do we a) get the original petition revised, so it is more forcefully and professionally worded, and b) get Evil Dan to draft one of his great letters?


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## MDLarson (Jul 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by evildan _
> *And we havent even considered the out-of-touch mac users yet. The people who will just see a stop in service. One day their email wont work so theyll visit Apples website to discover that they will now have to start paying for email. Then Id imagine theyll visit yahoo or hotmail and set themselves up with a free account. Because everybody knows you dont pay for email.*


That's not quite an accurate picture.  I received an email from Apple "Information About Your iTools Membership" announcing the whole .Mac thing.  It is dated July 18, 8:49 PM (I'm on central time).  Here is the PDF* printout version of the email, conveniently hosted on my iDisk

*.pdf was not an upload option


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## salsa (Jul 22, 2002)

Evil Dan & many others have recently complained not only about the .Mac fiasco, but also the steep Jaguar upgrade price. In a recent post, I noted that the petition re: Jaguar is poorly worded, & many have been reluctant to sign such an unprofessional document. (see *Jaguar Petition Online*

I took the initiative to rewrite a draft, & after eliciting feedback from you, my Macintosh colleagues, I will try to tactfully & diplomatically approach the original writer & see if he agrees to change the wording of the Jaguar petition.

Please note: I don't expect a free upgrade. Well, read the letter below... So, will the eloquent Evil Dan & others give me some feedback? Thanks.

*letter to iCEO, Steve Jobs, Apple Computer*

We, the undersigned, protest Apples lack of a fair pricing structure and lack of a reasonable pricing policy for the upgrade to Mac OSX 10.2, also known as Jaguar.

While we support the need to charge the full $129. Jaguar price for those who are migrating to OS X from previous operating systems and who have Macintosh computers which are over one year old, we believe it is only reasonable and fair to expect Apple to offer significant discounts for Jaguar when the following circumstances apply:

- Macintosh computers purchased within the last 4 months
-OS X purchased within the last 4 months
- Full-price paid for OS X non-beta release

We also strongly believe that Apple should honour the Apple Software Proof-of-Purchase Coupons for this Mac OS X update, in the case of people who have recently (within the past 4 months) purchased a new Macintosh computer.

Under all the above-listed circumstances, we suggest a $25.95 upgrade price for Jaguar.

We also propose that there be a price reduction for buying Jaguar for people who have:
1) purchased Macintosh computers from 5 months to 1 year ago
2) purchased Mac OS X (but not at full-price) within 5 months to 1 year ago
3) purchased Mac OS X 10.0

In these cases, we propose a discounted price of $50.95 for 1) and 2), and a half-price discount of $65.99 for 3).

We hope you will see fit to rescind your decision regarding Jaguar pricing for the above-cited circumstances. This would help to quell the wrath of many long-time Macintosh supporters. By doing so, Apple will be perceived as a fair-minded and responsive company.

Sincerely,
the Undersigned


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## xsedrinam (Jul 23, 2002)

$30 to "update" to QT 6.0 Pro.  THEN, in order to get MPEG2 (which worked on QT5) we have to pay another $30? 
AND $130 for Jaguar...75% bells and whistles, 25% networking, files, Finder improvement, a little faster.  Y piensas que nosotros vamos a ceder a esto??   Think differently, you who think different.
Xsedrinam


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## strobe (Jul 24, 2002)

QuickTime may have cost more if it could handle MPEG2. Let's not forget who Apple has to license this stuff from.

Nearly every legit use of the MPEG2 component involves other costs much more than $30. Most people who are whining appear to be pirates.


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## Dehuti (Jul 24, 2002)

I agree. I switched from PC to Mac 2 weeks ago (I fall in love with G4 PB). I'm UNIX/Win geek, having more than 15 e-mail addresses, but all I need and all I'm proud of is my @mac account.


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## wiz (Jul 25, 2002)

Jaguar might me a bit steep bit its worth it (there are too many updates !!!)


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