# Long term storage of video - real long term!



## karavite (Mar 3, 2006)

Hello all, it seems that for video, this is the most relevant forum.

Okay, I recently transferred 157 each 50' reels of family super 8mm movies, spanning 30 years of family history (and was I an adorable baby or what?), to video using this (so darn cool). I made many different DVDs of all this and gave them to all kinds of family members. However, as the self proclaimed "family archivist" I have to keep the long term preservation of the original files in mind.

The 157 raw capture files are in .dv format and are about 500 mb each (each 50' reel of film is about 4400 frames). I have these files backed up on 3 firewire drives as well as a spare internal drive, but that is all in my house and what if the place burns down some day - not good! So, I am also going to use Final Cut Pro and my camcorder to write them all directly to Mini-DV tapes and send those off to various family members for safe keeping. I may even send one or two one of my firewire drives to keep somewhere.

Obviously keeping these files safe and up to date with whatever format comes along is going to take a long term committment, but even though I have redundant back ups in different mediums here, I was wondering what else I might do. DVD-ROMs would not hold many of my files, tape drives are not cheap... Is there something out there I am missing that is super reliable and cost effective? I can't think of it!

P.S. Of course I am also keeping safe the original films, but lord, it was a lot of work transferring those.

P.P.S. If anyone ever has any questions about super 8 or regular 8 film to digital, please contact me. I learned a ton about this and would be glad to help out anyone.


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## ElDiabloConCaca (Mar 3, 2006)

If these videos are of high value to your and your family, I would recommend getting a rather large drive (300GB or so, maybe multiple drives) and putting the videos on those... also, burn them to DVD-R disks in UDF format.  Take the hard drive(s) and the DVD-R disk(s) and get a safe-deposit box at your local bank.

Ain't nothing safer than two digital media copies (hard drive and DVD media) stored in a fire-proof, secure safe deposit box.  For safe measure, I would also pull those DVD-Rs out of the safe deposit box once a year or so, and copy them to fresh DVD-R media.

No media has eternal longevity.  DVD-Rs start breaking down after xxx number of years (as do CD-Rs)... DV tape would start to disintegrate at some point down the road... hard drives would lose their magnetic storage properties at some time... I would think that hard drives would last the longest, though, as long as they aren't exposed to any magnetic fields.

I would be willing to bet that DVD-R disks stored in a cool, dry, dark place would last much longer than DV tape.


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## fryke (Mar 3, 2006)

DVD-Rs would probably, like CD-Rs, lose their content in 10-15 years. _I'd_ just have them on

1.) one FireWire drive at your place,
2.) one FireWire drive at somebody else's place
3.) another FireWire drive.

After, say, three to four years, you'll probably buy another (much bigger) FW-drive and can retire one of the older ones - or rather make it yet another safe backup in another person's place. It's roughly 70 GB of files, right? That'd take about 15 DVD-Rs (maybe 20, depends on the exact files size and how you can make them fit)... You can seal those and have them in a dry and safe place. But you'll have to replace them, say, every 8 years at least.


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## eric2006 (Mar 3, 2006)

Firewire drives will be fastest to transfer to but, correct me if I'm wrong, USB drives will do the same thing, with a bit more time to transfer, and a lot less cost. Just do it overnight or something.. 
About every time you get a new computer (say, 5-10 years) you should replace the drives. Store the drives in a temperature regulated area (i.e. not in the shed!), away from magnets, and in a fire-proof safe. Of course, like the other people said, have multiple copies.


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## karavite (Mar 3, 2006)

Thanks all - great advice. I'm going for redunancy all around. DVD-R (thanks for the UDF format tip ElDiablo), Mini-DV tapes and a few extra drives. Since I am on my 12th Mac, moving around old files is something I actually enjoy whenever I get a new computer.

You know what is really funny about this? The actual films are 20 - 50 years old and are in fantastic shape, even though they were in an attic in Michigan for 20 years with temps between -10 and +120 easy, horrible humidity and all the rest, all year long. Still, with proper storage and treatment, they could last another 50 years. So, it is funny how an antiquated media format is more durable than anything available today. Kodak really knew their stuff. I wonder how we are all going to handle archiving all our family media - new and old. It's really not as easy as you think.


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## fryke (Mar 3, 2006)

Well, then maybe consider backing them up on 8mm film.


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## Mikuro (Mar 3, 2006)

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a DVD-R burned today working fine in 50+ years. (Well, maybe I would, but that's because I think _I'll_ probably be dead in 50 years, not my discs!) Disc rot happens, but modern media are better than earlier CDs. And even my oldest CD-Rs, which must be at least 6-8 years old by now, still work fine with no special care given to them.

That said, redundancy is always good, and I agree that you should refresh any backups every so often. I certainly wouldn't go as far as to make new DVDs every year, though. Every 5 to 10 years sounds cautious enough to me.

I think you've got your bases pretty well covered. In a year or two you'll probably want to bring 50GB Blu-Ray discs into the picture.


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## karavite (Mar 3, 2006)

Yes, if I could write 50 GB to some kind of disk like Blu-ray, I would only need 3 discs for the whole batch and could make multiple batches. I have nothing but time, so why not wait?


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## mdnky (Mar 4, 2006)

I wouldn't suggest expecting anything burnt onto a DVD to last more than 5 years, depending on the quality of media you use.  The dye used in most burnable DVDs just won't last long.  Pressed DVDs are a different story.

A good quality and common tape format that is currently being used in the business world for backups is probably your best bet for longevity.  Keep one copy at home (in a fire safe) and the other in a safety deposit box.


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## elander (Mar 4, 2006)

fryke said:
			
		

> Well, then maybe consider backing them up on 8mm film.



I guess fryke meant this as a joke, but he isn't all that off. Film media has survived for decades, some of it even over a century. From what I've read from various sources, most pundits seem to think that todays digital media types (cd, dvd, digital tape etc) will last no longer than a decade or two.

Having said that, I don't really think that 8 mm would be the format I'd choose. I'd go for 16 mm instead. The transfer will result in a quality loss similar to the one you already suffered from conversion to digital, but if you use the 8 mm originals and transfer them directly to 16 mm, it will be acceptable. Better hurry though, film is getting more expensive ny the minute, as more and more switch to digital...


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## karavite (Mar 4, 2006)

elander said:
			
		

> I guess fryke meant this as a joke, but he isn't all that off. Film media has survived for decades, some of it even over a century. From what I've read from various sources, most pundits seem to think that todays digital media types (cd, dvd, digital tape etc) will last no longer than a decade or two...



It's true elander- these films are amazing for how well they have lasted. I have actually treated and cleaned them all with a preservative and will keep them until some youngster in the family proves worthy of taking it all over. In effect, they are my primary back up! I honestly think they can last many more years and would easily last longer than any DVD or hard drive I back up to today (if I didn't keep up recopying them every few years).

FYI, my transfers are really pretty darn good. I would hate to lose the films, but the files would be the next best thing. The device I transferred them with is simply brilliant. http://www.moviestuff.tv/dv8_sniper.html

What is different about it than most film transfer services or techniques done with home movies is that it captures *every single frame of film* as a frame of video. Most paid transfer services use rigs where they run the film at its actual speed (15 fps for Regular 8 or 18 fps for Super 8) and capture it real time to video (29.97 fps). None of these frame rates match up, so that method results in flicker and video frames consisting of chopped up film frames. With the full frame capture method I simply adjust the playback rate in Final Cut Pro to get the proper playback speed (50% for regular 8, 60% for super 8). FCP renders the new video frames and it is steady as a rock with zero flicker.

Sorry for babbling, I have been doing this too long and it was a lot of work!


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## robjcooper (Mar 22, 2006)

Put them onto tape - it will outlast all these dye based home recordable optical media by a long way. If you can, beg or borrow a digital betacam, dvcpro or DVCAM machine, to do your copies. If not, use professional quality DV tapes for your recordings. Consider that we are still able to access 2 inch Quad recordings from tapes made in the late fifties and early sixties. I've got several early DVD discs of movies which have become unplayable.

and you know, it's not just me......

John Blau, IDG News Service 
Tuesday, January 10, 2006 
Opinions vary on how to preserve data on digital storage media, such as optical CDs and DVDs. Kurt Gerecke, a physicist and storage expert at IBM Deutschland, has his own view: If you want to avoid having to burn new CDs every few years, use magnetic tapes to store all your pictures, videos and songs for a lifetime. 

"Unlike pressed original CDs, burned CDs have a relatively short life span of between two to five years, depending on the quality of the CD," Gerecke says. "There are a few things you can do to extend the life of a burned CD, like keeping the disc in a cool, dark space, but not a whole lot more." 

The problem is material degradation. Optical discs commonly used for burning, such as CD-R and CD-RW, have a recording surface consisting of a layer of dye that can be modified by heat to store data. The degradation process can result in the data "shifting" on the surface and thus becoming unreadable to the laser beam. 

"Many of the cheap burnable CDs available at discount stores have a life span of around two years," Gerecke says. "Some of the better-quality discs offer a longer life span, of a maximum of five years." 

Distinguishing high-quality burnable CDs from low-quality discs is difficult, he says, because few vendors use life span as a selling point.


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