# posts deleted by moderator



## lethe (Jun 27, 2002)

i am a little annoyed to find that my posts on trip s programming 
contest thread in the programming forum have been deleted by him.  it is true that my posts
were critical, so i understand if he was annoyed.  but they were not
rude, and were in fact an honest answer to his question which was
asking our opinions about his contest.  subject of his poll was
'should progc be held?'

i thought there were logistical problems with the proposal, and
told him about them as i saw it.  but i was not rude, and contained no profanity.  i am 
offended that my posts were censored, and i consider it an abuse
of the moderators power.

am i being melodramatic, or overreacting?  are dissenting opinions not to be allowed on this message board?  that is not the kind of community that i want to belong to.  please tell me your thoughts.


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## edX (Jun 27, 2002)

these were posts within a thread that trip started? and you saw them in the thread and then they were gone? and did trip tell you he deleted them?

i think you may have a legitimate concern if that is what happened and your post contained no profanity nor personal attacks. however be aware that many original threads get moved without markers. i do this alot with posts in the news & rumors forum. If these comments were placed in a new thread, which sometimes happens by accident, they could be in another forum somewhere. 

frankly, this doesn't sound like Trip.


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## lethe (Jun 27, 2002)

see for yourself:
http://www.macosx.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19193


trip started a thread about a programming contest.  i criticised.  my posts were deleted from the thread.  the thread is still there with blank posts from me.  content deleted by moderator.

i was a little upset, but it is actually not the first time i have seen trip close a thread.  here is another example.  it s just that this is the first time i have cared, since in the others, it was not my posts being hushed.

as far as criticism goes, i found this, while looking around, in this thread:



> _Originally posted by Trip _
> *That was a huge waste of clicking time and 20 seconds. I can't beleive you're posting this crap.  *



i don t see how it is fair that trip acts like that, unmoderated, while my posts get deleted.


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## lethe (Jun 27, 2002)

i started looking around the site because of this.  i have just discovered the rift that happened in macosx.com community two weeks ago while looking around.  i am appalled.

i never really like getting involved in that kind of bickering, so i am glad i missed out on it.  actually, i can t believe that i didn t notice it.  i guess its because i almost never check anything except OSX system software, and the darwin forum.  i don t want to get into it now, or start it up anew.

but i can t believe nkuvu is gone!  i feel like crying...  and racerx, i will miss too.  i am so sad.  i wish they had stayed.

now i am split in two:
A.  i am being melodratic again, and joining in the infantile bickering.  i should go back to OSX system and darwin forums, and never stray out again.  my posts were not appropriate and needed to be deleted.

B.  nkuvu has very valid complaints about what happened to Jadey, and censorship is bad.  the censorship still goes on and has now happened to me, and all of the dissenters arguments were correct.

ed spruiell, you are the voice of reason...  guide me


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## edX (Jun 27, 2002)

well, i guess we need to understand if you did anything that violates site policy in your posts. Did you call Trip names? or personally attack him in any other way? did you use profanity? did you hand out info that would enable the oepration of illegal warez ? or did you just disagree with Trip? disagreement should never be grounds for post editing.

i believe this incident is completely seperate from the previous one and should be handled accordingly. It will be discussed among the moderation staff. any additional info would be appreciated.

thanks for bringing this to our attention.

(relax a little on the melodrama and we'll see if we can't get this worked out )


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## lethe (Jun 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ed Spruiell _
> *well, i guess we need to understand if you did anything that violates site policy in your posts. Did you call Trip names?*



No





> *or personally attack him in any other way?*



yes.  i didn t like his idea, and i told him what i thought was wrong with it.  i suppose we would need to see the original text to see how harsh it was.  for example, i thought it was ridiculous when i saw him say that he would judge coding based on how much fun the coder had when writing, so i said something like "how do you judge how much fun the coder had when writing code?"  i did not call him or his idea ridiculous.   although, is that really a _personal_ attack?  perhaps.



> *did you use profanity?*



No



> *did you hand out info that would enable the oepration of illegal warez ?*



No



> * or did you just disagree with Trip? disagreement should never be grounds for post editing.*



I agree



> *
> (relax a little on the melodrama and we'll see if we can't get this worked out ) *



ok ok.  i was a little upset when i read about nkuvu.  you can imagine that this is a bad time for me to read something like that.  fuel for my upsetness (if that s a word). 

i really do abhor the sort of bickering that goes on in message boards, sometime guilty of it myself, though i may be.  i have seen it on other message boards, and it has in fact ruined at least one personal relationship for me, one that i prized.  


if i had just continued to only post on technical matters, and avoided posts of opinion .......

on the other hand, i value freedom of speech very highly, and was mildly upset.  i then saw what happened a few weeks ago, and you can imagine how that compounded my concern.

i will go to sleep now, i suppose we can talk more in the morning.


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## Trip (Jun 27, 2002)

It really depresses me that this was forced to be made public. I thought stuff like this was against Admin's current rules and policy, but then again that may be me.

Lethe: did you ever get my appology PM? I am really sorry for this mess, I have summer school and work and a lot of other junk.

But it'd really mean a lot to me if this thread was closed if not deleted, it really doesn't need to be made 100% public.


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## lethe (Jun 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Trip _
> *It really depresses me that this was forced to be made public.*



It depresses me that censorship goes on.  discretion does not seem to be the right approach to solve injustice, but that is just my opinion, and my lack of discretion has offended people before, so you are not the first to disagree with my policies.





> *I thought stuff like this was against Admin's current rules and policy, but then again that may be me.*



i have no idea what admins policy is.  it may changed lately.



> *
> Lethe: did you ever get my appology PM? I am really sorry for this mess, I have summer school and work and a lot of other junk.*



i did get your apology.  thank you.  i will also apologize for offending you with my posts, and my lack of discretion.  a lot of people don t like that about me.



> *But it'd really mean a lot to me if this thread was closed if not deleted, it really doesn't need to be made 100% public.  *



this thread should not be deleted, or closed, or treated differently than any other thread.  i think "Site News" is the appropriate forum to discuss the boards administration, and i think this thread falls under that description.

you should not close or delete a thread unless it contains offensive language, or gets violent, or sexual, or something like that.  editing because you disagree with the content, or because it is not flattering to you is censorship.

if you don t like the way this thread is going, your only recourse is to defend yourself on this thread.  and ask me to edit my own statements, or add retractments of previous statements.

that is my opinion of how a message board like this (that claims to be a community) should be run.  it may not be the opinion of you, Trip, or admin.

it might be a good idea for this thread to stay open, just so we can find out what admin or moderators or other peoples opinions are on this message board, about when it is appropriate to edit the posters content, or close a thread.


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## Trip (Jun 27, 2002)

I learned my lesson Lethe, nobody else did anything wrong. And Nobody else was editing messages they, personally, didn't like. So that's my reason for saying to close this thread, because it is being discussed in the moderators forum, and I _did_ in fact learn something.

I'm sorry you hate me so much. Really, I am.


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## lethe (Jun 27, 2002)

i don t hate you.  i just disagree with your actions.  lets try not to let this become personal, OK?


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## Trip (Jun 27, 2002)

That didn't make any sense what you just said: you disagree with *my* actions let you don't want this to get personal? Huh? And if you disagree with my actions, yet I said I'm sorry, and I assure everybody that it will never happen again, why is this thread still needed if it will never happen again?

I hope I don't sound rude, I'm just stating what little I understand.


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## Trip (Jun 27, 2002)

Congratulations Lethe! You've done it! You've killed me and everything I stood for in this community! I hope you got what you wanted, proof that this will never happen again. I really hope somebody puts you in your place someday, until that day we shall *never* meet again.

"So much for a happy ending, eh?"


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## lethe (Jun 27, 2002)

no, you don t sound rude.  feel free to state your opinion on this matter.  that is in fact the primary topic of this thread: when should a thread or post be deleted or closed.

and i will be more than happy to discuss the matter with you, and also encourage anyone else to voice their own opinion, tell me that i am wrong, or tell you.  but lets just keep name calling and hatred and things out of it.

just to clarify about what i mean when i say personal or impersonal.  i think that i can disagree with someone about a course of action and still be friends with that person.  to say i hate you is to imply some personal feelings.  the only strong feelings i have on the matter are towards the freedom of the community.  that is what i meant when i said nothing personal.  no hatred, just disagreement.  i was upset at first, last night, so i do apologize if i implied hatred.  that was not my intent.

so finally let me continue the debate about the deleting of posts and threads.  you argue that you ve gotten the point, and since the message of the thread has been delivered, there is no need to keep the thread.  i do not agree with that logic.  i think threads should stay in the databse forever, for the sake of record keeping, and history lest we forget.  and to ensure that it really does never happen again, not just by you, but by other moderators, now and in the future.

i would like to hear other peoples opinions on it.  if i am not right, i then you should delete the thread, or do whatever you want.

really though, its nothing personal.  its just my feelings on how message board communities should be run.


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## lethe (Jun 27, 2002)

ok, that last one did sound a little rude.  i am sorry about killing you and all you stand for.  that was not my intent.

i am not really happy with this ending.  in fact this whole ordeal does not make me feel very well.

what should i do?


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## edX (Jun 27, 2002)

lethe - i want to be clear about something - nowhere in any of your posts in this thread have i found anything offensive or that indicated hatred. You have acted as a concerned member of the community in a very respectful way - unlike some others in the site's history who disagreed with a moderator. (and i am not talking about the big incident with Jadey et al.).

you are entirely right in seperating a person's actions from them as a person. or as i always say - i may do stupid things, but that doesn't make me stupid. 

Trip has made a mistake and admits to it. he has been under pressures from the outside world. It is not an excuse, but perhaps a valid explanation.  let's all just leave it at that. What happens next is for moderators and admin to decide. 

thanks again for bringing this to everyone's attention. I can understand how Trip might have wished this was all private. but his actions were public and so the discussion of them should be allowed to be public as well as long as it remains civilized. I would expect no less if it were me in Trip's position. When we agree to become moderators, we also become public figures, whether we like it or not.

it is not the intention of any of the moderation staff to stifle the exchange of ideas and opinions when they are done in sincerity.


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## JetwingX (Jun 27, 2002)

ok now thios is getting pointless and stupid let's just let this threat drift in to the archives


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## xaqintosh (Jun 27, 2002)

> Congratulations Lethe! You've done it! You've killed me and everything I stood for in this community! I hope you got what you wanted, proof that this will never happen again. I really hope somebody puts you in your place someday, until that day we shall never meet again.
> 
> "So much for a happy ending, eh?"



I'm confused, why is this?


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## lethe (Jun 28, 2002)

so now Trip is in exile.  is this self imposed?     trip seems to have taken this rather hard.  i hope trip wasn t kicked off the board because of this incident.  is that what he meant when he said i killed him and what he stood for?  

i feel badly about this.  i know that i can seem harsh on the forums sometimes.  e.g. here and here.  both times i get chastised, once by admin and once by testuser.  so i know that sometimes i should take it easy.  i didn t think i was very harsh with trip, but who can say, since the text is gone.

i was upset over having my posts deleted, and i grew more upset when i learned of the jadey thing.

i am glad that you are a moderator ed.  you are very level headed, approachable, and moderate, except when it comes to mozilla and norton...  ((-: sorry.  just kidding).

i really didn t mean to make trip hate me.  but i really do think that peoples should not suffer censorship, under any circumstances.  it is paramount that people be able to exchange ideas without fear of censorship.


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## twyg (Jun 28, 2002)

Ok, lethe, don't worry. If Trip takes it personal then he shouldn't. That's easy to say, but tough to live.

Trip resigned yesterday of his own volition after the "evidence" was placed in front of us. 

This is not to say Trip will never work here again, or be an "Exile." That is certainly being melodramatic at the least. Trip did a good job for us, and that won't be soon forgotten.

Once Trip sorts things out we may discuss moving forward.

So, as the Officer in South Park would say "move along now, nothing to see here."


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