# PB Critics tear Apple apart



## GroundZeroX (Jan 9, 2003)

http://news.com.com/2010-1071-979757.html?tag=fd_nc_1 According to this review, the new Powerbook isn't that much better then a similarly configured Vaio that costs $600 less. For that price though, you don't get 802.11g card, or DVD Burner, or a 17 inch display. Any thoughts?


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## gigi (Jan 9, 2003)

he seems more concerned with the reaction the audience were giving more than the actual products. i think he is trolling....ignore him


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## wiz (Jan 9, 2003)

yep 


roger that


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## kanecorp (Jan 9, 2003)

i think he makes good ponints
and its funny the way he describes the peoples reactions to everything


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## drustar (Jan 9, 2003)

i think whoever did this review is just jealous. sure - he can go get himself a vaio. pardon us if we like our computers sleek and reliable.


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## leadfootedfool (Jan 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by drustar _
> *i think whoever did this review is just jealous. sure - he can go get himself a vaio. pardon us if we like our computers sleek and reliable. *



I don't know about the reliable, I couldn't get the keynote to work on my pb and ended up watching it on my pc.

But anyway, that guy is just trying to justify carrying around 5 more lbs and MUCH shorter battery life.


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## Giaguara (Jan 9, 2003)

vaio is  not a mac.

it's not running OS X.

it's not 17".

you cant burn dvds.

antd type in dark.

and it weight more.

the writer can go and vaio himself.


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## holmBrew (Jan 9, 2003)

This clown probably needs to but a make.  He seems, like many out there, to be a staunch skeptic. Probably voted for Dubya. He's probably bitter becasue he really had nothing to complain about.  The 'similarly config's Viao' weight about 3000 pounds and only have a 16" screen and it is not wide-aspect. 

He needs to stop his whining.


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## stealth (Jan 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by leadfootedfool _
> *...
> But anyway, that guy is just trying to justify carrying around 5 more lbs and MUCH shorter battery life. *



Much shorter battery life? in comparison to which product? the sony vaio? or the 15inch powerbook.. because the 17inch powerbook has max 4.5 hours of battery life. and the 15inch has 5 hours max.  does that seem like MUCH shorter battery life.? especially for a powerbook with 17inch display ?


OH.. and if anyone buys a 17inch laptop. i DONT think hed care that much about its weight. 6.8 pounds is quit light for such a notebook... when buyin this powerbook i think its SIZE is what would matter the most. and if u dont have a problem with its size. i think its weight is the LAsT thing that ull think about


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## Sogni (Jan 9, 2003)

Gear Envy!

*Drool*


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## leadfootedfool (Jan 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by stealth _
> *Much shorter battery life? in comparison to which product? the sony vaio? or the 15inch powerbook.. because the 17inch powerbook has max 4.5 hours of battery life. and the 15inch has 5 hours max.  does that seem like MUCH shorter battery life.? especially for a powerbook with 17inch display ?
> 
> 
> OH.. and if anyone buys a 17inch laptop. i DONT think hed care that much about its weight. 6.8 pounds is quit light for such a notebook... when buyin this powerbook i think its SIZE is what would matter the most. and if u dont have a problem with its size. i think its weight is the LAsT thing that ull think about *



I was talking about the sony.  6.8 lbs and 4.5 is awesome for the 17incher.


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## fryke (Jan 9, 2003)

6.8 pounds is about what my old PowerBook 520c weighed. And I was quite happy to have the little beast, as it allowed me to play (and lose) Marathon I against a friend with a 540c (he won only, because my display was passive, though)... 

But really, the PowerBook 17" is not 'your average PowerBook'. It's really a desktop you can actually move. I wouldn't want this as my writing tool, I think the Ti already is a bit too big (and wish they would turn the 12" into a widescreen 13" model with 1152*768 - that would be my next PowerBook...).

I know what I'm saving money for now, at least. I'll either buy a maxxed out 12" iBook or the 12" PowerBook next. But then again, I guess I'll only have that money ready by the next upgrade round in Summer...


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## MacLuv (Jan 9, 2003)

I'm sorry guys, but I have to agree wholeheartedly with this statement:
*
 Technically, it was fabulous--and completely impractical. Microsoft's PowerPoint exists for one reason: Sales representatives use it to lull their audiences into an agreeable mood before asking for money. "Your company is fabulous, but I can't stand that little man holding the stopwatch and scratching his head. We're going to go with the vendor with that Egyptian papyrus theme," is a statement that will never come out of a corporate buyer's mouth. *

Business is "mission critical"--time is money. As long as people get the "gist" of it, there's no need for this fancy BS. I think Keynote was a waste of Apple's time. A *real* visionary would be busy making a GUI for mySQL. Duh.


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## MacLuv (Jan 9, 2003)

I also agree with this statement:
*
 Microsoft and Intel understand this completely. Standards exist in the industry not because of a secret, evil conspiracy. They exist because, in many circumstances, conformity is more important than perfection. That's why the two companies, and the rest of the PC market, spend more time talking about price and availability than anything else. No one will ever "woo-hoo" a speech by Intel CEO Craig Barrett, but his company provides the chips in most of the world's computers. *

I couldn't have said it better myself. Steve Jobs, not Apple, is style before substance. The day Linux gets a consumer desktop worthy of download, that's it for Apple. That's the way I see it, anyway. No flaming me. I'm nice.



PS.. oh yeah, I'm not putting down Apple, I'm just saying that things have to change around there and it's not going to happen with *the man.* Maybe one day you guys will trust me on this one. Until then, everybody into the pool.

PPS... oh yeah yeah... I'm not saying I'm a fan of status quo or mediocrity, because I'm not... but I don't need my computer to be "fancy" anymore...


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## cclear (Jan 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MacLuv _
> *I'm sorry guys, but I have to agree wholeheartedly with this statement:
> 
> Technically, it was fabulous--and completely impractical. Microsoft's PowerPoint exists for one reason: Sales representatives use it to lull their audiences into an agreeable mood before asking for money. "Your company is fabulous, but I can't stand that little man holding the stopwatch and scratching his head. We're going to go with the vendor with that Egyptian papyrus theme," is a statement that will never come out of a corporate buyer's mouth.
> ...




WOW.. I TOTALLY disagree...

The more power you have in your presentation, the more weight that it will have... it is just that simple..

Take a look at marketing..  you can take a product that no one really wants, and isn't all that great, but wrap it in a GREAT marketing plan ( flash and polish ) and you can sell it....

so how much more if you have a great product? ( or presentation?? )

and the same goes when you want to present idea's, reports or whatever... the more visual attractive something is, the more someone will ACTUALLY look at it.. the more they look at it, the more they think about it and the more they think about it, the more they will REMEMBER it...

I think keynote looks like a great app..  kudos to apple for constantly raising the bar.


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## MacLuv (Jan 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cclear _
> *WOW.. I TOTALLY disagree...
> 
> The more power you have in your presentation, the more weight that it will have... it is just that simple..
> ...



With all due respect, when you give a presentation to people, you don't wow them with a dog and pony show. It's that simple. People see presentations all f*cking day long. They want the bottom line as quickly as possible so they can call it a day and go home. Keynote may impress the gals at the local tennis club or your mother, but that's about as far as it goes. 

Look at it like this: anywhere a creative edge is needed to push a presentation, one doesn't use custom-developed software to deliver it. That would just show lack of ingenuity on one's part. 

A presentation just needs to look presentable, that's about it. The bells and whistles in PowerPoint are never used--they're just there to sell the software. I have seen plenty of "prensentation" only startups that have learned this the hard way. 

 Regards


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## Jason (Jan 9, 2003)

im not a huge fan of the 17in pb as a laptop... i see it as a desktop portable... but not a laptop, its too big IMHO, i own a 12inch ibook, and this is just plain perfect size for a laptop, and i can set it on my desk and hook everything up and its basically a desktop...

17 is a little too much, but it has its purpose as a power machine on the go (mine personally stays on my desk in the form of a power mac)

12 is a little odd to me, its a g4 ibook... why? anyone who needs that much power... i think... would want a bigger screen etc and would probably go for the 15 pb... at least i would if i wanted a g4 laptop... the 12 will most likely either do really bad, or really well and take away from ibook sales... maybe apple is getting rid of ibooks? i dont know... it just doesnt make much sense to me to have a 12 inch power book, 13 would be good like fryke said... maybe even 14 so that the top ibook and bottom powerbook kinda over lap a little...

keynote? pointless... id rather use a flash presentation then either keynote or power point, but thats me 

safari... great effort IMO, althtough odd they based it on KDE's khtml

um and the other stuff? doesnt pertain to me


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## MacLuv (Jan 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cclear _
> *Take a look at marketing..  you can take a product that no one really wants, and isn't all that great, but wrap it in a GREAT marketing plan ( flash and polish ) and you can sell it....
> *



Wait, are we discussing keynote or Apple Comptuer in general?


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## vanguard (Jan 9, 2003)

> By contrast, Apple inspires rave reviews. And accounts for only 2.3 percent of the worldwide computer market, according to research firm IDC.



Wow, this number get's lower every time I see it.  I'm also seeing that Linux is about to become the #2 desktop OS, taking Apple's spot.  For me, I like the smaller powerbook.  If I were in the market and I was a normal person, that's what I'd get.  But for me, an OS that doesn't run Java 1.4 won't get my money.

Vanguard


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## cclear (Jan 9, 2003)

ok, i will bite..    

1st of all.. it does depend on what TYPE of presentation your giving.. If your just doing marketing reports or some simple statistical show, or you just need to illustate a point to the people within the company then no.. you don't need a bunch of flash.. and for that fact, you only need graphic's when called for to illustate or accentuate a point.. to help visually carry what you need to get across...

But when you want to sell something, be it a idea or product, the more powerful your presentation is, the more weight you can give whatever your selling..  and that is fact.. you can disagree all you want, but in the end, the guy that puts more time and effort into his presentation will win...  and keynote is only ONE more thing to help you give either a good presentation or help you give a great one...

and yea, if all you have is flash, and your product is a lemon, your not going to get very far.. 

But if you take a good product - or - idea, and you have 2 different presentations..  the better presentation will go over much better.. 

presentations is more than graphics -- for sure.. it is ALL about HOW you communicate what you need to communicate.. 

BUT anything that can help you communicate better -- anything that gives you that extra 5-10% more -- will help..     

and if you got a great idea, great speech, and great graphics, you will have a great presentation.

"The guy with the better presentation will win.. "


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## MDLarson (Jan 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by holmBrew _
> *This clown probably needs to but a make.  He seems, like many out there, to be a staunch skeptic. Probably voted for Dubya.*


"Probably voted for Dubya?"  I won't bother trying to understand this statement, but I just wanted to let you know that maybe some people around here (me) don't appreciate stereotypical statements such as the strange one you've made.


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## MacLuv (Jan 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cclear _
> *"The guy with the better presentation will win.. " *



lol (in general, not at you)... I WISH!!!!

Forgive me, but this is not true at all. I really wish it were. Successful presentations get the point across in the least amount of time. That's about it. Like I said, if "flash" is required, then you wouldn't need Keynote--you may go BB's way and use Flash or something that really shows a different approach--but that's only if you're selling style in iteself. Usually if style is an issue you're talking about a really big multimedia presnetation way beyond the scope of Keynote or PowerPoint. 

But I'm not going to hack this to bits... when the day comes you have to give a big presentation and decide to fluff it up with BS, then may the Gods be with you.


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## wiz (Jan 9, 2003)

hey its just $99


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## cclear (Jan 9, 2003)

MacLuv:    no worries.. 



> But I'm not going to hack this to bits... when the day comes you have to give a big presentation and decide to fluff it up with BS, then may the Gods be with you.



 dude, I agree, no more hacking to bits... 
but I don't think if someone takes a little extra time ( and as "wiz" pointed out, keynote is only $99 ) and a little extra effort into the graphic-visual display of your presentation, it COULD be the difference between a GOOD presentation, to a GREAT presentation.. 
and I don't think if you get your visuals to truly accentuate your key points, it is not BS, but a nice extra kick....  

anywho..  those who don't want keynote, don't have to buy it, those that do, will.. 

cheers


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## leadfootedfool (Jan 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by vanguard _
> *  But for me, an OS that doesn't run Java 1.4 won't get my money.
> 
> Vanguard *




http://developer.apple.com/java/


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## DazedAndConfuse (Jan 9, 2003)

As someone who give presentations almost every day, here is my take on Keynote...

Those who say that all the flashy wizz-bang gizmos do not sell things are right.  Those who say that the presentation that wins is the one that gets the message across quickly are right.  That's not what Keynote is about though.

I've sat through more PowerPoint slide shows than I care to remember.  They all look like PowerPoint slideshows.  You can actually get distracted by the 'clunkiness' of the program.  Where Keynote wins out is in how clean and simple it is.  It is the difference between professional, and amateur.

First impressions do count.  A lot.  Subtle effects can help to build this impression.  When you watch a keynote by Jobs you know that he isn't using PowerPoint.  That's not because the next slide appears on one side of a rotating cube - notice he never used that effect himself - but because it looks like the slides are professionally prepared.  Have you ever seen the difference between a report typeset with Latex, and one produced in Word?  That is the difference between the slide output with these two packages.  Trust me, pro quality slides DO make a difference.

Forget the 3-D animations, the textures, etc.  That is not what Keynote is about.  Keynote is about producing presentation quality output.  That is something that PowerPoint just does not do.

DC.


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## MacLuv (Jan 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DazedAndConfuse _
> * Keynote is about producing presentation quality output.  That is something that PowerPoint just does not do.
> *



lol... sure it does...  I'm not saying you shouldn't be professional, but the level of "professionalism" you need to get the job done is available in PowerPoint. You're suggesting that Keynote is incapable of allowing humans to put a hack job together if they use it, which is not true. A bad presentation is a bad presentation--the software makes little difference. (Like saying people will become Ansel Adams with a Canon Sure Shot Supreme).


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## Manta (Jan 9, 2003)

MacLuv wrote:



> PPS... oh yeah yeah... I'm not saying I'm a fan of status quo or mediocrity, because I'm not... but I don't need my computer to be "fancy" anymore...



So you would rather bring everyone down to the lowest common denominator instead? Youre contradicting yourself. You cant say it doesnt matter about the quality or style of things and then say you dont believe in mediocrity either....what the??

Im not trying to flame you, but as a designer, Im sick and tired of people who have no clue whatsoever about the creative process and its value towards the creation of products...even presentations. Sure, Keynote's set of graphics are bit fluffy but they do a hell of better job than some of the shite Ive seen on powerpoint. Its only a consumer app sure, but I remember something about how you can customise the look of things with it which is great for people who dont want complicated presentations (was Steve's efforts that bad?) Geez...


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## ApeintheShell (Jan 10, 2003)

The writer of this article is obviously an outsider to anything computer related. Like many cnet writers he is a financialist proclaiming to know all but not taking the chance to research a product. Even i can go to apple.com effortlessly.

If you recall Daze and Confuse post he summed up the purpose for keynote and why powerpoint does not work. I see an end to that discussion.

As for the 17 inch powerbook. If he felt the need to compare it to a vaio, he has never used the two side by side. 

Gateway and Compaq are the worst examples of the digital hub because they basically followed the flow of apple.

It all comes down to your average user. They see these products apple sells, they like them, soon instead of watching television they are making a slideshow, movie, dvd, managing their music collection. I didn't even care about the above until apple introduced me to it. 

In conclusion, people can change for the better.
Apple just gives them the perks of being there.






Mac Luv...if you can take a computer without design good for you. As for me, the macintosh makes completes my user experience.


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## Cat (Jan 10, 2003)

> vaio is not a mac.
> 
> it's not running OS X.
> 
> ...



Well said Giaguara!

I also believe the vaio hasn't got Firewire 800, USB ports on both sides and I really doubt it to be only 1" thick. The best argument is still: "It aint an Apple" 

BTW: who ever claimed sales representatives would be the only ones ever to use digital slide shows? If I'm not mistaken there are plenty of other people around that use slide apps: e.g. teachers & students. I've seen plenty of lectures given with PP... and they were not about getting the message across quickly, but thoroughly. Images can say mare than a hundred words, and I'm not talking about charts. E.g. brain images and eeg scans, (f)MRI scans. Full apha-channel support is going to matter a lot in these cases. Does PP have that?


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## edX (Jan 10, 2003)

aside from David coursey who seems to be a legitimate 'adder', the rest of the zd net staff never quite gets it.

i particularly liked this feedback in the talkback section. 

would it be out of line for me to agree with the author of the article and agree that the average consumer is a simpleton when it comes to computers? 

now as for the keynote discussion here, i'll just say that i think both sides have their points. but from what i saw of keynote while playing it with it at MWSF, like macluv describes powerpoint, it's real advantage isn't in the bells and whistles but in being able to put together a nice clean presentation in an easily managable way. i actually had the help guy give me a presentation of keynote and that was the biggest thing i walked away with.
but macluv, you're acting like business  is all that matters here (your world) and forgetting all the other potential uses for somethinglike this - like in classrooms where students fall asleep during boring presentations. Creatively it could be used to make a great resume presentation in certain fields. And yea, mom and dad could put together a photo album and send it to grandma who will ooh and ahh for weeks. 

the shortcomings that you ascribe to keynote aren't keynote's fault, they're the users fault. and i'm sure plenty of pwerpoint users have made those mistakes as well. knowing when to use what features is part of what seperates a pro from an amateur. but keynote seems to me like it will work well for either.


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## MacLuv (Jan 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Manta _
> *So you would rather bring everyone down to the lowest common denominator instead? Youre contradicting yourself. You cant say it doesnt matter about the quality or style of things and then say you dont believe in mediocrity either....what the??*



Well, I've spent the last ten years of my life learning how to merge "pure business" with "abstract creative". Trying to mix the two for the sake of aesthetics is pointless. 


> *
> Im sick and tired of people who have no clue whatsoever about the creative process and its value towards the creation of products.
> *



What about those who have no clue where the money comes from to pay the creatives? Somebody's got to tend to the books, brother, and he doesn't have time to watch two hours of a movie to find out the boy gets the girl and they live happily ever after.

One must understand the bottom line as well as the limitless bounds of the imagination. Dig? Somewhere in between the two is good business.


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## MacLuv (Jan 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by edX _
> *
> but macluv, you're acting like business  is all that matters here (your world) and forgetting all the other potential uses for somethinglike this - like in classrooms where students fall asleep during boring presentations. Creatively it could be used to make a great resume presentation in certain fields. And yea, mom and dad could put together a photo album and send it to grandma who will ooh and ahh for weeks.
> 
> the shortcomings that you ascribe to keynote aren't keynote's fault, they're the users fault. and i'm sure plenty of pwerpoint users have made those mistakes as well. knowing when to use what features is part of what seperates a pro from an amateur. but keynote seems to me like it will work well for either. *



Okay man, I'm diggin' your vibe. We'll see how it goes for Apple. Deep down I wish they had spent the time on something else.


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## stealth (Jan 10, 2003)

first of all. a believe a 12 inch powerbook is a good idea. the 15inch powerbook is quite big. and for businessmen on the go a 12inch is much more convenient. and why not by a 12inch ibook ? well a powerbook is quite fast and can easily be used as a desktop at home when plugged to the power supply. whereas the ibook i believe is not as fast(it may not bee slow. but it wont last us as many years as a powerbook)!!!

as for Keynote; i dont think its a waste of time. what if microsoft-apple break up. what will happen to powerpoint users? they would just be stuck with the current powerpoint version! keynote seems to be its replacement! for those who dont want impressive presentations to show off their product they can still use powerpoint! but I dont believe that keynote IS A WASTE OF TIME! 



> _Originally posted by MacLuv _
> *W...People see presentations all f*cking day long. They want the bottom line as quickly as possible so they can call it a day and go home. Keynote may impress the gals at the local tennis club or your mother, but that's about as far as it goes....
> *



who said keynote main goal is to make IMPRESSIVE presentations? have u used it? u can make as simple and straight-to-the-point presentations with Keynote as with powerpoint, but NOW u also get the chance to take a step further and be innovative
and its an APPLE product. i prefer using an apple product on my mac than a microsoft product


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## MacLuv (Jan 10, 2003)

Okay, my main criticisms about Keynote are related to my dissapointment in where I see Apple heading right now. I honestly think Apple is doing everything they can to milk revenue directly from the LAUB without trying to compete head on with Microsoft. Stealth puts it in perspective for others--it's for Apple people, not Microsoft people. It's not going to make people switch--that's my main issue.

BTW-- If Apple was going to x86 I would see Keynote as a step in the right direction...


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## edX (Jan 10, 2003)

a suggestion - how about moving the keynote app discussion here and let this thread get back to pc journalist bashing like it's supposed to be.


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## MacLuv (Jan 10, 2003)

lol

where's the pointing lauging smiley face?

By all means, resume your bashfest.


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## edX (Jan 10, 2003)

macluv - i sense that you suffer from something similar to what the writer does. he would never make the switch to apple because he's already convinced himself that he has it better with pc's. He is still measuring bottom lines and not evaluating the quality factor and the intangables.

you on the other hand seem dying to make the switch to pc's because you've convinced yourself that they've got it so much better than we do. but deep down you suspect that it isn't true, and if apple would just fix this and release that, then you could feel good about not leaving os x behind. figure it out man, either you're 'on the bus' or you're not.  tell it to apple, not to us. and if enough other people tell it to apple, then they'll probably do it. if not, then maybe you would be better suited with a pc. despite all my bashing and joking, there's no crime in being a pc user. but there's also no crime in being happy with our macs and with apple. better to appreciate what you've got than to beat yourself up over what you don't.
(and i'm speaking on more than one level here  )


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## MacLuv (Jan 10, 2003)

Oh man, you're askin' me to lose my religion... but that's the point... the Apple crowd makes it a crime to own a PC... I think I'd be happy if it were all 50/50 at this point, don't you?

I think the problem with using Apple for greater than 2/3 of my life is that I now suffer from abulia and can't make the leap. Can't you tell?


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## edX (Jan 10, 2003)

no, i don't ever want apple to be popular enough to attract virus writers!! how many times do i have to say it? !!! let's not worry about taking back the world - let's just hold on to the part of it we've got!!


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## MacLuv (Jan 10, 2003)

Ah, so you have a fear of viruses, eh? Isn't there a phobia associated with that?


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## stealth (Jan 10, 2003)

microsoft is everywhere! apple switch adds may be sayin the truth but its difficult to attract people from such a huge market! if they wanna turn ppl into switchers they HAVE TO IMPRESS THEm! for example a new PowerMac which is much faster than any processor around could impress them! its difficult to take the average user (who is used to workin in a windows environment) and make him buy a mac! they have never used mac OS. and its a fact that most people dont like CHANGE! 

im sure glad i made the change. now all i want is a Dual Power Mac. and a 17inch PowerMac 

BTW MacLuc whats LAUB ?


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## stealth (Jan 10, 2003)

i agree with Ed. some people are just negative about apple(like that *%&*%^ journalist) and would never make the switch. i experience it everyday in school when i talk about apple; some people will just become furious and start tellin me all the bad things about apple , while OTHERS will seem interested and ask more questions about macs or agree with me! the 1st case guys will obviously never switch, but if the others could be potential switchers( if they werent living in Greece)


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## edX (Jan 10, 2003)

Loyal Apple User Base = LAUB

hey, stealth, i'm always glad when somebody sees the light. i just don't want 'em flocking to it like the light you're supposed to see when you die. let the ones who think they know better stay where they are. cause they're the same ones that inspire others to write viruses. 

and macluv - i don't have a fear of viruses - i'm a mac user  (seriously, i don't have to be afraid of something to not want the annoyance of it)


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## stealth (Jan 10, 2003)

Virus? whats a virus? last time i mentioned this word was 10 months ago before i switched.. ahahha now it has been erased from memory, just like all those Blue Screens of death  (of course there is one PC in our house. my old PC . my brother uses it now. but i REFUSE to help him when it has any problems! once i buy a powerbook and give my powermac to my brother. ill be glad to feed the PC to the dogs)


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## Cat (Jan 10, 2003)

Macluv wrote:


> ... without trying to compete head on with Microsoft



I had this slight impression that this was the idea behind whole "Switch" campaign...
Maybe we were annoyed by it, maybe it was a bit crappy here or there, or we don't really believe the figures Mr. Jobs pulld out of his magical hat at MWSF: but still it was fully intended to convince wintel users to come over to the Mac. That's quite head on in marketing world, since it is forbidden to take another product and then say "hey, ours is better and theirs is worse". I don't think the switch campaign could go any farther that what it has done.

Moreover by releasing products that can replace M$ software (like keynote) they make switching easier and slowly erode the wintel user base. What if at MWNY this summer they are going to present a new version of AppleWorks to compete with office? or if they try and launch OpenOffice as their favorite suite?

"Some companies seem to have a problem with open source. We think it's great!" WHAM! That was pretty head on IMHO. 

What is your idea of Apple competing head on with M$?


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## stealth (Jan 10, 2003)

unfortunately. any computer company is practically competing with MS even if they dont want to.. since MS has expanded sooo much! i dont really care! as long as im satisfied with apples new products (eg Safari) i dont mind about MS.! let Bill Gates becum as rich as He Can ! it might sound kind of selfish but as long as theyre not hurtin apple(and as a result ME, the apple user), i dont really care!


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## mrfluffy (Jan 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by vanguard _
> *Wow, this number get's lower every time I see it.  I'm also seeing that Linux is about to become the #2 desktop OS, taking Apple's spot.  *


I think they base it on the last years sales, becuase the only computers in use were made last year  


> _Originally posted by edX _
> aside from David coursey who seems to be a legitimate 'adder', the rest of the zd net staff never quite gets it.[/B]


are you David coursey in disguise?


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## Manta (Jan 10, 2003)

Stealth wrote:


> i agree with Ed. some people are just negative about apple(like that *%&*%^ journalist) and would never make the switch. i experience it everyday in school when i talk about apple



Yeah its funny, Ive had that too but most of them dont even know that Macs are Unix now and when you explain to them all the cool stuff they always come up with the old fallback...'Macs dont have any decent games' 

PS>Yes we are short on games but not on brains...


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## hulkaros (Jan 10, 2003)

I truly hate Apple for letting the Cat out of the bag and now they are making us organise a Safari in the middle of winter with only a puny 12" PB as a defensive weapon or the heavy 17" but powerless PB against all wild life! And what in God's (aka Steve Jobs) name were they thinking at Apple when they created that Key-what? Or that wire800 of fire? Can we really compete against all wild life out there with this kind of puny wires & fire-only stuff? And what about iLife? Will we be able to iLive another day with this crap suite of weapons in our dangerous Safari?

Methinks NOT! I hate Apple! I want fearsome Claw Hammers, Opterons, 't/niums, DDRagons, Viruses, BSODs, unholy armoring with MANY weapon slots and other God killing weaponry and I want 'em NOW! While at the same time NOT being fancy, unique or beatiful, instead I want them to be plain ugly even for 1sec look! I want my enemies to fear them just by laying an eye at them! Or when my enemies will try to beat my fearsome mekaniks by trying to outsmart them using their XPerience in battles, to find out that they have no Windows of oppurtunities to escape an ugly death of their freedom because I have the unbeatable Palladium as my right hand and above all I own the keys to the Gates of hell itself!


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## edX (Jan 10, 2003)

for those who don't know hulkaros - please read above with sarcasm


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## dlloyd (Jan 10, 2003)

I assume he is talking about Windoze?


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## wiz (Jan 10, 2003)

omg lol that was FUNNY

but no pun on apple?


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## dlloyd (Jan 10, 2003)

Of course not! All of us here are Mac addicted!


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## Jason (Jan 10, 2003)

we are?


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## dlloyd (Jan 10, 2003)

Yesm didn't you know?


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## Manta (Jan 10, 2003)

Seeing as everyones in the mood...

Someones sig I found:

Computers are like air conditioners...they dont work when you open windows....

hehe


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## jade (Jan 10, 2003)

http://techupdate.zdnet.com/techupdate/stories/main/0,14179,2908149,00.html
*not all zdnet wirters are pessimistic about Apple's future.

even if the switch campaign doesn't win over a large portion or wintel users,  it will be successful with gaining a few points of market share.  If apple gains 2% it will nearly double their sales.  I actually think there is an extremely large maket for the 12in powerbook;  many people are looking for a powerful yet small notebook,  and for some people the ibooks doesn't look professional enough and prefer metal casing (like the stainless steel appliances,  they may not be any better than the white ones but they have the cool appeal).  The 17in powerbook is a lot like the Nissan 350z.  Nissan may sell many more sentras, altimas, and maximas, but having an attractive flagship product only enhances your reputation and gets people into the showroom to look at your products.


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## MacLuv (Jan 10, 2003)

Dan Farber, can you say "bribe"?


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## MacLuv (Jan 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jade _
> *even if the switch campaign doesn't win over a large portion or wintel users,  it will be successful with gaining a few points of market share. *



This is a "flexible yardstick"-- the figures Jobs gave during the Keynote are questionable, and the Switch campaign itself is not directly responsible for making the sales neccessary to increase marketshare. It's aimed at "drifters"--or people on the fence. It's there to encourage people that Mac is the only alternative to Windows. (Or remind Apple users that it's the right choice.) It doesn't guarantee anything, especially Apple users floating away to Windows. What Jobs failed to mention is how Apple is trying to keep people from departing the Mac scene. I'm reminded of the Simpson's episode where Homer tries to get more customers in the bowling alley by running outside, firing a shotgun, and yelling "Bowling! Everybody loves Bowling!"


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## stealth (Jan 10, 2003)

im certainly not plannin on departin from the Mac scene. i just got here. and it feels COOL, RELAXING and ENJOYING! thats all i ask !!! 

oh,.. and Hulkaros.. STOP being sarcastic about PCs.. I LIKE EM  they are very good for playin games (such as solitaire) (hahahahahhaha) !!!


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## Peter King (Jan 10, 2003)

I admit that I didn't read the entire thread, so someone may have mentioned this already, but:
Has anyone else noticed the neverending cycle of Microsoft ads at the top of that page?


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## edX (Jan 10, 2003)

no peter, nobody has mentioned that. i guess we're just used to tuning that stuff out. your post did get me to rexplore the page and after following a side bar link, i wasn't too surprized to find that you need realplayer or WMP to view their clips of the keynote. no QT versions. 

http://news.com.com/2009-1040-979524.html?tag=lh


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## Peter King (Jan 10, 2003)

Here's another example:
http://news.com.com/2100-1023-979583.html
There's tons of this stuff.
All the ads I saw were for either Intel, or Microsoft. That's whack! =D


Almost seems like Microsoft bought their support?


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## ex2bot (Jan 10, 2003)

Stealth (and others? I skimmed) also pointed out a problem in the cnet journalist's logic:

"I don't like Keynote because it is too good." 

Huh? This guy (cnet guy) is criticizing Apple for making a better product BECAUSE IT IS MORE CAPABLE THAN POWERPOINT. 

That is utterly stupid and absurd.

"I don't want something better. I just want the stuff Microsloth shoves down my throat because Microsoft is not proprietary. Microsoft is business. Microsoft is . . etc."

Garbage. Buy the best product. Or take your ball and go home. It's almost like saying Microsoft Paint is sufficient because Photoshop Elements is too flashy! Ridiculous logic. . . 
*** RANT OFF ****

Doug

[Edit: edited for clarity ]


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## Jason (Jan 10, 2003)

watch it doug, dont want to come down to others levels... this thread is already walking on a tight rope in places...

be nice to each other guys


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## ex2bot (Jan 10, 2003)

Hey, Jason,

I was only attacking the cnet guy's comments on Keynote. Somehow I don't think he'll be upset by my comments if he reads them. [If so, I'll buy him a latte!] 

The logic is faulty (yeah, faulty, I won't call it CR*PPY, I promise.)  

I edited the previous message for clarity. I've got a (bad, I guess) habit of hitting "submit" and then reading it, then revising it. I've got to hold on to messages until they're ready!

Doug

P.S. Peace!


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## Jason (Jan 10, 2003)

lol oh ok, my bad 

ive just had some random complaints about some peoples opinions in this thread...


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## Gedankenspiel (Jan 11, 2003)

I've said it on this site a dozen times and the article at the beginning of thos thread confirms this - what Apple is doing ins't INNOVATION.

I was absolutely disappointed with this years MacWorld keynote speech. The software introductions aren't what will keep Apple in business. The 17" inches of screen real estate will also NOT make people buy new machines, including myself and the 12 inch verision makes me look at the mini Sony Vaio even more (because it comes with a built in camera).

With all my love to Apple, they have been banking on the same strategy for the last 2 years plus they have been ticking people off.

1. A ridiculous $100 for a shitty .mac service
2. $300 for a crappy airport base station
3. A $129 charge for Mac OSX 10.2
4. A PAINTED Powerbook that chips paint faster than it boots
5. After 20 years of 2 button mice STILL a silly single button mouse

I should say that I worked for Apple for three years in Europe and that I have been a HUGE proponant of the brand. Sadly enough I am losing faith. This might be my last Powerbook for a long while if Apple doesn't give me an incentive that is real.

G


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## jeb1138 (Jan 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Gedankenspiel _
> *I've said it on this site a dozen times and the article at the beginning of thos thread confirms this - what Apple is doing ins't INNOVATION.*



-----------------------------------------------

*innovation*

\In`no*va"tion\, n. [L. innovatio; cf. F. innovation.]
1. *The act of innovating; introduction of something new, in customs, rites, etc.* --Dryden.

2. *A change effected by innovating; a change in customs; something new, and contrary to established customs, manners, or rites.* --Bacon.

 The love of things ancient doth argue stayedness, but levity and want of experience maketh apt unto innovations. --Hooker.

 3. (Bot.) A newly formed shoot, or the annually produced addition to the stems of many mosses.

-----------------------------------------------

Just what do you think innovation is Gedankenspiel?  Innovation to me is doing something new or in a way that's never been done before through research and hard work, instead of through more natural processes that are harder to stop than they are hard work, which would be evolution.  Of course, this is just my definition and there's definitely quite a lot of gray area, especially in technology today.

Dell has been extremely ingenius and unique in their business model, for example.  That's innovation.  Other PC companies are being forced to slowly change their business models to match Dell's, or else they don't and die.  That's evolution.

Apple is, for the first time in personal computing, really integrating all the different aspects of a digital lifestyle.  That's innovation.  The rest of the industry will be forced to follow.  That's evolution.

Apple took the industry's scaled-down hunk of desktop metal and turned it into something that's not only sleek on the outside, but thin, portable, integrated with the WiFi world that laptops belong in and, now, able to connect to super-high speed peripherals that enable desktop capabilities in a mobile package.  That's innovation.

If you really want to classify innovation as only something that is completely new, then the only innovators left in the PC industry will be the physicists.  They're the ones who come up with the out-of-nowhere crazy ideas about how maybe these protons and electrons and quarks and quirks work and how we might be able to control them.  The rest -- the chemistry, the engineering, the applications that are enabled by that engineering & etc. have all 'evolved' from the physicists, if that's how you want to look at it.

Apple _is_ innovating and has been.  They make things and do things in ways that have never been done before -- significant ways that really make a difference to the end user -- and the rest of the PC industry follows in evolution.

I'm not saying that the rest of the PC industry _doesn't_ innovate.  They do, and in many ways that Apple doesn't.  But Apple does innovate and is one of the most, if not _the_ most, innovating companies in the industry.

Or actually if you preferred to use definition 3 from above perhaps Microsoft would be the most innovating company in the industry.


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## Cat (Jan 13, 2003)

*MWSF, What's new:*

- Airport Extreme (industry first),
- Integrated BlueTooth (industry first, in laptops AFAIK),
- FireWire 800 (industry first),
- Backlit keyboard with ambient light sensor (industry first),
- Keynote (totally new app for Apple, but not new in the sector),
- Safari (new for Apple, but not overall)
- Integration of iLife (the iApps aren't "new", the form of far-reaching integration however is)
- 17" Powerbook (industry first)

*MWSF, what's not-so-new:*

- 12" Powerbook (iBook-like form factor + G4 = old elements new combination + innovations as of above)
- The individual iApps (progress, bugfixes, speed etc. aren't really an innovation, but simply improvement)
- Final Cut Express (older app ripoff, nothing new)
- No other new hardware (the iPod jacket is a joke, but a good one  ).

Correct me if I have overlooked something...

Well, summing it up, Apple innovated a great deal, but maybe not in a way some of us would have liked it to. Of course we all would have liked Mr. Jobs say: "One more thing, ... the G5"
Oh well, there's going to be improvement along that line, but not now. We have gotten a lot of nice things, though. I don't feel the need to complain about what we haven't got. 

Peace and love to all of you out there!


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## mightyjlr (Jan 13, 2003)

Airport Extreme isn't new.  It is new for Apple, but there are other 802.11g products on the market already.  What is an innovation I think is the USB printer sharing which I haven't seen, but there are other wireless printer sharing options availble, most or all of them are based on network ethernet printers though I believe.


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## fryke (Jan 13, 2003)

Might correct you there. Apple comes to the market with AirPort Extreme with the first wave of 802.11g hardware. At least in Europe. Two days before Steve's keynote, The Register posted a story about 802.11g gear coming to the UK 'soon', and I have yet to see any 802.11g hardware in person here in Switzerland (and I _am_ visiting computer stores quite often, which is bad for my money).

To the person comparing the TinyBook to Sony's ultraportables with camera: I've got one of those and have thought about buying a new one - when Apple released the TinyBook.

As I mainly use my notebooks for writing stories and poems, don't care so much about the OS it uses. PC notebooks get Linux, which is a fine OS for WiFi surfing and writing, Macs come with Jaguar, of course.

Sony's ultraportables aren't very good for writing and their battery life isn't what Sony promises, and even that wouldn't be as good as Apple's (real) battery life. Together with the _too_ wide screen in those PictureBooks (as Sony calls them), they're basically nice toys that aren't suited to real work, either. The camera is fun - but what would you use it for? I'm not much of an online-cam-chatter and I have a digital camera that makes better pictures (and which I can actually hold in one hand a bit better).

Plus: The 12" PowerBook will also replace my 'desktop' machine, the TiBook 500. (And replace it well.)


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## celeborn (Jan 13, 2003)

Well, I sure like the stuff Apple brought out at Macworld. However, if what Apple is doing now is "innovating", they sure as hell used to innovate a lot more in the past. When Microsoft brought out the first version of Windows, Apple was 10 years ahead. Since then MS has more or less caught up. I still prefer the Mac, because it's better, but it's only a little bit better.

BTW, someone mentioned this: "The day Linux gets a consumer desktop worthy of download, that's it for Apple."
If you phrase Linux more generally as "open-source reliable unix-variant", that's exactly what Mac OS X is. If Linux ever gets a decent consumer desktop, it will not come from the open-source community. This is because as a commercial enterprise Apple has something the open-source community doesn't - consistency and quality control. Also, and probably most importantly, it has commercial applications. The problem with open-source development is that it develops for itself, not for the average consumer who doesn't want to bother about knowing what a megabyte or pixel is.

I am also very off topic.


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## mrfluffy (Jan 13, 2003)

> Safari (new for Apple, but not overall)


havent heard of cyberdog?


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## fryke (Jan 13, 2003)

If Apple's development cycle for Safari are anything like Cyberdog's, I'll become an iWhiner myself. (Cyberdog came out and died at version 1.x. And the whole technology it was built on - OpenDoc - got scrapped when Mac OS 8.1 came out. If I may add the analogy: Safari would never reach version 1 and Mac OS X would get scrapped when Mac OS X 10.3 comes out.)

And about a good linux desktop environment: Ximian's Gnome is good. Red Hat's BlueCurve (Gnome version) is good. It's the apps that are missing. Actually, you can have a very nice system running on an X86 based notebook or desktop computer, if you use RedHat 8.x. You're still screwed if you want to do the things you do on the Mac, though.


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## mrfluffy (Jan 13, 2003)

I just meant that cyberdog was a web browser as is safari, so it isnt entirely new for apple.


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## cfleck (Jan 13, 2003)

your linux comment is interesting.

it spurs an interesting thought about why linux is nice for me...

i have used linux for the past 4 years primarily because i am a student and linux is so much nicer to program in.  pure programming.  the keystrokes are all in the right places and the tools are all free.  

now (well, about a year ago) apple intros their os which is unix based.  now all of a sudden i can program to my little hearts content with all the free tools i am used to, and still have a legit system for normal use.  

i know this has nothing to do with the topic but i have to post this cuz its on my mind.

i think apple is going the right way.  and i think they have bigger plans than anyone is giving them credit for.  be patient.  the good things are going to get better.


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## Malachite (Jan 14, 2003)

I also find the OSX development environment ideal and perhaps therein lies the true source of Apple's innovation: As new communication protocols are adopted and integrated into Apple's products, I find as a hardware engineer extraordinary opportunity to develop systems that I can deploy using an Apple computer as a backbone. This places the innovation spear firmly in the hands of the greater community and relieves the pressure of having Apple create everything that's cool under the sun in-house. Apple appears to be working on polishing the foundation in order to expand their developer base, which then drives the consumer market, reciprocating to the developer base again, etc. It's a bold and refreshing approach to business strategy.

I just bought my 15" Powerbook G4 for the purpose of developing a variety of Bluetooth, Firewire, and USB applications. So more cool stuff might be coming from outside sources. Or perhaps I am merely naive in my interpretation...

Saul


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## Cat (Jan 14, 2003)

> I just meant that cyberdog was a web browser as is safari, so it isnt entirely new for apple.



Got me on that one. OK, it's before my time, loooong ago. Sorry.  No worries.

Then still, browsing in OS X (2003) and browsing in 7.5.5 (ehm, 198*?) makes a hell of a difference methinks. Still, can't claim too much new code, since it's based on Konqueror... OK Safari's not-so-new then. But we've all been rumoring/hoping/expecting it for a long time, and are glad it's here!  and we hope it WON'T follow Cyberdogs sad fate...


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## celeborn (Jan 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Cat _
> *browsing in 7.5.5 (ehm, 198*?)*



Actually, 7.5.5 was released in 1996, but you're not far off 

Apple system software timeline: http://www.theapplemuseum.com/index.php?id=tam&page=timeline&subpage=os


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