# iTunes - The Battle Begins



## Quicksilver (Sep 2, 2004)

I'm sure you've all heard, MSN Music has been released in beta stage. now i hope apple is really carfull here because this could lead into a repeat of the word processor war.

I sure hope this great dream that apple has does'nt turn into a nightmare for them. The same mistake can't happen twice, that would be to embarrasing. The only problem i see that will cause an effect is file compatability issues in the public realm in future, there will be clashes and frustration but because of the past some may blame apple, others(most) will be educated enough to figure the problem out. 

This .wma and .acc thing will be tough but i see apple coming out on top if iPod or iTunes conversion methods are greatly improved. Seemless file conversion tactics.


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## Fahrvergnuugen (Sep 2, 2004)

Can you believe that Microsoft has the gall to write this?

http://beta.music.msn.com/help/ipod



> *How can I get MSN Music downloads to play on my iPod?*
> Although Apple computers and Apple iPods do not support the PC standard WindowsMedia format for music, it is still possible to transfer MSN Music downloads to an iPod, but it will require some extra effort. To transfer MSN-downloaded music to an iPod, you need to first create a CD with the music, and then you need to import that CD into iTunes. This process will convert the music into a format that can play on the iPod.*We're sorry that this isn't easier - unfortunately Apple refuses to allow other companies to integrate with the iPod's proprietary music format.*If you are an iPod owner already and unhappy about this policy, you are welcome to send feedback to Apple requesting that they change their interoperability policy.



calling the kettle black? 

i hope iTunes can hold its ground against the MSN music store. I think it will because MS doesn't have an iPod to go along with their store.


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## Ricky (Sep 2, 2004)

It's time to get hammering hard on iTunes 5.


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## ElDiabloConCaca (Sep 2, 2004)

It too damn late.  Every PC/Windows user that wanted to use an online music store is already using iTunes or Real, and already has an iPod.

Microsoft doesn't have a killer portable music device to go along with their store, which, I might add, is kind of ironic -- the biggest software company in the world is dead *last* to enter the online music store biz.

Go and do you-know-what to yourself, Microsoft.


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## mindbend (Sep 2, 2004)

Negative Nelly alert:

It's just a matter of time before M$ takes over this area as well. They have the resources to wait it out and keep developing, fine tuning, building the library, etc. Soon a few people here and there will buy those hideous Dell MP3 players and start using MSN Music. As the now-cool-as-hell iPods grow long in the tooth and people want to update, they may switch to whatever Sony has or Dell or Panasonic or whatnot. 

Yes, the ITMS and iPod market share will stem the tide a bit, maybe even for a few years, but M$ fights wars of attrition. The won the browser war, they are on their way to winning the game console war and they will eventually win the online music war. They're just too big. 

I, however, will dutifully continue to fight the battle on the front line. I've done my part by talking a friend into getting an iPod instead of another option.


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## MisterMe (Sep 2, 2004)

ElDiabloConCaca said:
			
		

> It too damn late.  Every PC/Windows user that wanted to use an online music store is already using iTunes or Real, and already has an iPod.
> 
> Microsoft doesn't have a killer portable music device to go along with their store, which, I might add, is kind of ironic -- the biggest software company in the world is dead *last* to enter the online music store biz.
> 
> Go and do you-know-what to yourself, Microsoft.


You are absolutely correct. The purpose of the iTMS is to sell iPods. The purpose of the iPod is to sell Macs. If recent news reports are correct, Apple's strategy is working very well. Apple has already signed one of the largest vendors of Wintel computers, HP/Compaq, to sell iPods. From where I sit, the Microsoft Music Store looks like yet another money-losing venture for the Redmond monopoly.


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## ElDiabloConCaca (Sep 2, 2004)

mindbend said:
			
		

> Negative Nelly alert:
> 
> It's just a matter of time before M$ takes over this area as well. They have the resources to wait it out and keep developing, fine tuning, building the library, etc. Soon a few people here and there will buy those hideous Dell MP3 players and start using MSN Music. As the now-cool-as-hell iPods grow long in the tooth and people want to update, they may switch to whatever Sony has or Dell or Panasonic or whatnot.



Anyone who has an iPod now and wants to upgrade will get another iPod.  You can't get an iPod, then "upgrade" to a Dell Jukebox or Creative Zen.  That's like driving a BMW for half your life then "upgrading" to a Honda.  I'm pretty sure that the majority of iPod users will be iPod users for life, and I'm sure that they're confident they're using the best portable digital music player on the planet.



			
				mindbend said:
			
		

> Yes, the ITMS and iPod market share will stem the tide a bit, maybe even for a few years, but M$ fights wars of attrition. The won the browser war, they are on their way to winning the game console war and they will eventually win the online music war. They're just too big.
> 
> I, however, will dutifully continue to fight the battle on the front line. I've done my part by talking a friend into getting an iPod instead of another option.



There is no war in the typical sense, because wars end, unlike the computer business, which keeps going and going and going.  Instead of a "win-lose" situation like a war, we should refer to it like a pendulum... the pendulum swung WAY far over in Microsoft's favor for a long time, but it's starting to swing the other way... people see the light that is open source or free or better or a combination thereof -- like Mozilla/FireFox, Linux, Mac OS X, and low carb.

This is where antitrust comes into play -- so that no single company can "win" any war, they can only get a majority slice of the pie for a limited time.  The Microsoft antitrust trial of the recent past isn't a great example of this, but look: the tide is turning despite the mockery that trial was, because society also supports a "pendulum" style economy, not a "win-lose" definitive economy.

It's things like talking your friend into trying out an iPod and showing him the "light" that makes things like defeating Microsoft possible.  Years ago, all the media could talk about is how Microsoft is big and bad and the best.  Now, all you hear on the news is negative things about Microsoft -- slews of virii, security holes, whole *countries* switching to an open-source Linux platform, etc.

We are winning.


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## Fahrvergnuugen (Sep 2, 2004)

> We are winning.


yes we are. And I agree with everything you said. I certainly see more and more people considering apple as an option.

But the way I see it, as long as Apple continues to make a quality product we will always be winners. its not like you or I are suddenly going to switch over to Microsoft just because they launched a new service. Mac users are loyal.

We know what we like and we know how good apple is... who cares if the other 95% of the people out there don't? Apple only needs us 5% to survive. More users will certainly mean more money for apple, but will it really benefit you or I? 

I hate to compare computers to cars again, but imagine if you owned a Porsche and then suddenly one day they figured out a way to market and sell their product to everyone the way microsoft has done. You wouldn't be able to drive anywhere without seeing another porsche and your porsche wouldn't seem so special. Their overall quality would probably drop because of their need to mass produce to keep up with demand.

As far as Microsoft goes, I personally believe that they are past their peak.

sorry for the rant


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## karavite (Sep 2, 2004)

For some reason my post was moved, but see this for an article in the NYT calling MS for what it is - a blatant rip off artist: http://www.macosx.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45898

Speaking of which, a true to form MS music store wouldn't have the actual songs by the original artist, but instead have cover versions of all songs where Microsoft's own bands would redo all the biggest hits!  (Anyone ever see the movie The Rutles with the fake Beatles songs? That is what I am thinking of here!).

Apple: http://www.thebeatles.com/

Microsoft: http://www.rutles.org/rmain.html


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## Go3iverson (Sep 2, 2004)

Fahrvergnuugen said:
			
		

> Can you believe that Microsoft has the gall to write this?
> 
> http://beta.music.msn.com/help/ipod
> 
> ...




Hmmm....

Now here's one I'd like to see on Apple's website.....

"How can I use AFP with my Windows 2003 Server?

Although Windows 2003 boasts support for AFP connections under Services for Macintosh, the code that Microsoft is using is quite old and multiple revisions behind the code Apple gave them before Server 2003 shipped.  Now, under 10.3.5, large data transfers over Services for Macintosh simply crash.  We're sorry that this isn't any easier, but Microsoft refuses to use code that they didn't write.  This is quite different than Microsoft's normal business model of taking anything that's not nailed down the floor, but I guess its just not as much fun when the software developers willingly give you the code, as opposed to simply taking it and using a multi-million dollar team of lawyers to protect "our intellectual property".

Oh, and if you came to find out about how you can upload your MSN music to your iPod, don't worry!  We predict that your computer is bound to experience a virus in the near future that will not only wipe out your music, but the rest of your machine too, so its the least of your worries!"


Its been a long day watching that server system bomb connections left and right.....

But really people, if you plunked down that kinda cash for an iPod, do you really think your gonna switch from iTunes to MSN and have half your music in one jukebox and half in the other!?


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## soulseek (Sep 2, 2004)

were currently living some interesting years...

the fact that microsoft is last to enter such a field shows how the man called Steve Jobs sees years ahead into the future. first with his iPod and then with the iTunes music store. there were many doubting him at first, but he was allready years ahead of them (that includes billy boy)

on the other hand microsoft has found itself in a difficult position, WAYYYY behind the competition.
and unfortunately for Bill, it will be tough to perform any of their (old/under-the-waist) tricks.. (eg: break compatibility of iTunes on the PC with some update). and this is because theyve done this too many times allready, and 'countries' like europe are just waiting for another reason to make microsoft hurt even more...!!!

in short, its all up to Apple to keep the good work and win more and more ppl..
what the microsoft losers are sayin in this (  http://beta.music.msn.com/help/ipod )
article is not very different to what that stupid CEO from Real has been saying the past months. but who has been listening to him ? instead iTunes and iPod numbers are going up, as he keeps on talkin crap...


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## ElDiabloConCaca (Sep 2, 2004)

You see, Microsoft is always last when it comes to innovation, so they are stuck hobbling together a piece of software that looks good, but is full of holes and bugs -- then the only way people will use it is having it shoved down our throats.  When you've got $647.5 trillion dollars, ways to shove stuff down peoples throats are a'plenty.  Microsoft is the digital mafia.

I have no doubt that Microsoft's music store will succeed.  They'll pre-install it on every Dell and Compaq and Gateway and eMachines computer from here 'til Timbuktu, and you won't be able to escape it.  When you boot up your shiny (er, black) Dell machine, you'll be presented with a window that says, "Check out Microsoft's new Music Store!"... click the "don't remind me again" button, and another window: "Are you sure!?  It's rad and cool!  Sign up now!"... click "No thanks," and another window: "By clicking 'No," you're missing out on the greatest music store in history!"... you get the idea.

But anyone who's read my "pendulum" post knows that the pendulum is swinging away from Microsoft's favor.  Even though they will tout their music store as a success, it will be their last achievement for a long time to come.

Bring it on, Microsoft, you sons of motherless goats.  You will go down.


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## ElDiabloConCaca (Sep 2, 2004)

Also, notice that Microsoft has changed their wording from "PC standard WindowsMedia format" to "popular Windows Media format" on that page.

http://beta.music.msn.com/help/ipod

Many people [wrongly] dispute Apple's claim that the G5 is the best and fastest and first, but Microsoft going so far as to tout their *proprietary* format as the "industry standard" is just moronic.

Can't you just see a big, dumb, ape-like humanoid figure with a large, sloping forehead and unibrow representing Microsoft saying, with finger pointed in the air, "WMA is the industry standard!  ...Oh, wait, you mean I can't just say that?  It has to be approved?  What?"


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## blue&whiteman (Sep 2, 2004)

ElDiabloConCaca said:
			
		

> Go and do you-know-what to yourself, Microsoft.



I couldn't agree more


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## ScottW (Sep 2, 2004)

Folks... this will be interesting...

Look back at BETA/VHS debate. BETA format was clearly the BETTER format of the two, but VHS was the one the won out. Only television stations continued to use BETA because of it's superiority.

We see the same thing with Windows/Mac. Mac is better, Windows is not... Windows is used by the majority, a few key smart people use Mac.

If Apple is really out to ONLY sell iPods, then the iPod would be ultra compatible with all online music services. But it is more than that... it is converting cult members to the Mac platform.

For example... remember the Apple II and it's use in the education arena. A generation of people went on to buy Mac's... and a generation "outgrew" the Apple and moved to a "mature business machine"... aka the PC.

It is no big surprise that the music sellers and hardware makers companies are going after the universities. Young and impressionable minds. What the iPod has done is given a new "spin" on Apple and makes the Apple brand name cool. Just like it was cool to have a Sony product, it is now becoming cool to have an Apple product. So, why not when I choose to buy another electronics product, if Apple makes it, I'll buy it over another brand.

Microsoft has no real interest in the online music business. No one else is making money at selling 99 cent music. But, they need to protect their monopoly. Apple declared war with release of iTunes for Windows.... and now the battle begins. If Microsoft doesn't compete with Apple... they risk loosing market share as folks migrate from Windows to Apple.

Companies like Real, simply want to sell music. If Apple has 58% of the portable music player market, it is no Real surprise that they are trying to make their music play on the iPod.

The whole thing here is, how long can the iPod keep it's dominance. We need to look beyond the NOW and into the future.

Let's say someone comes out with something as cool, or (shall I say it) better than the iPod. It typically isn't compatiable with the Mac and Mac users are left out. Window's folks want "options" and buy it cause it works with everything but iTunes.

What then...

But, there is always the WILDCARD here.... and is what Apple really has in it's hands right now. As long as no other player can play iTMS purchased files... then I am stuck with an iPod to play the music I have paid for. I am not going to move around from song store to song store to purchase music, unless my player allows me to do that. If Apple allows Real, MS and others to play on the iPod... they are in essence creating competition for themselves in ref to iTMS.

When you control both sides of the fence, like Apple is used to doing... you soon create a nitch world. MS on the other hand, sells the software, not the hardware. Their goal will be to get EVERY music player to play their music files. Because it's already built into Windows, they have an easy marketing journey ahead.

I don't know what the answer is... I don't think there is any obvious solution to fix all the issues at play. Why in the world are computer companies selling MUSIC is my real stumbling block. If the iPod is truely the best portable music player on the market, then open the doors, sell iTMS to someone not selling hardware. Take away the conflict of interest.


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## texanpenguin (Sep 2, 2004)

...but, speaking from experience, people don't feel very guilty about 'obtaining' songs that they've paid for before.

I bought the CD of The Living End's second album, Roll On. I subsequently lost the CD. Now my money had already gone to the band. I didn't have any problem downloading all the music off file-sharing networks, because I wasn't cheating the band out of money.
I don't live in a country where iTunes Music Store exists, but if I had bought plenty of music on it, and then chose to move over, I think I'd be quite happy to just download it again for free.

I don't see confining people to a platform will work very well at all. I'm personally scared for the iTMS in this. I work at a PC-repair and installation store. Of our customers, the VAST majority doesn't know there's anything other than Windows Media Player that exists at all. All Microsoft would have to do is integrate the store into WMP and people would use it. Alot. Fast. That's how MS succeeds, and it's a brilliant way of doing things.

All the hp's in the world with iTunes won't hold a candle to every Dell in the world pushing WMP. And apparently WMP10 isn't too shabby either.


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## Fahrvergnuugen (Sep 3, 2004)

ElDiabloConCaca said:
			
		

> Also, notice that Microsoft has changed their wording from "PC standard WindowsMedia format" to "popular Windows Media format" on that page.
> 
> http://beta.music.msn.com/help/ipod
> 
> Many people [wrongly] dispute Apple's claim that the G5 is the best and fastest and first, but Microsoft going so far as to tout their *proprietary* format as the "industry standard" is just moronic.



that really irritated me when I first read that. i think its hysterical that they changed it


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## fryke (Sep 3, 2004)

We don't have to look as far back as Beta/VHS. We can look at how Microsoft handled the 'internet' market. Netscape was _the_ dominator in the market and sold many, many copies of Netscape Navigator and later Netscape Communicator. Microsoft was _late_ to the market with Internet Explorer. But it _did_ succeed. It had access to 95% of the desktop computers out there and just put IE in as the default.

Microsoft is doing much of the same now with WMP10. Sure, HP includes iTunes with their computers, but I don't see Dell, Sony etc. following. While Apple is clearly the market _leader_ in online music and portable digital music players, it's not _dominating_ this market. Online music sales are still only a small part of overall music sales, and in countries like Switzerland - not exactly 3rd world, either - you can't access iTMS at all, so if you buy an iPod (or another digital music player), you plan on ripping CDs or loading it with previously acquired MP3s.

Microsoft can spend quite a bit of money in developing future versions of WMP. And it entering the market will _quite_ certainly not make Apple's market share go UPwards... And once they're below 50%, the field's quite open again.

If Apple _plans_ on securing this market for _good_, they should have a good plan on how to beat MS in its own game. For example by licensing iPod technology to others and let other players play iTMS songs. (Not the other way 'round, because that'd eventually help MS' WMA format...) This would mean lower iPod sales, perhaps, but would still make Apple money (licensing costs).

But: Let's _not_ underestimate Microsoft here. For them, this is just another challenge, not something entirely new that they haven't played before...


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## Fahrvergnuugen (Sep 3, 2004)

that brings up an interesting question... what countries have access to microsoft's online music store? (or other online music stores for that matter)


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## Jeffo (Sep 3, 2004)

ElDiabloConCaca said:
			
		

> Microsoft is the digital mafia.



I have never heard it put this way before and laughed for a long time on this.  enough so that i added it to my signature.


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## TommyWillB (Sep 3, 2004)

Fahrvergnuugen said:
			
		

> Can you believe that Microsoft has the gall to write this?
> 
> http://beta.music.msn.com/help/ipod
> 
> ...


LOL

 When Microsoft makes their own music player, do you think they'll make it "open" so iTunes and import music into it?


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## karavite (Sep 3, 2004)

What Apple needs to put out is iTunes and iPod software for Linux so all the people in China, India and Europe, who are telling MS and Windows to take a hike, can download music too!  Seriously, you would think MS would be a little more busy with 3/4 of the world looking at a different OS instead of beating up Apple in the low profit online music market! Then again, I'm not sure they can help their old ways.


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## fryke (Sep 4, 2004)

low profit but high profile.


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## jonparadise (Sep 4, 2004)

Even though Microsoft have the money, and the penetration, I firmly believe they are starting (and have) made huge mistakes.

The main being, they are spreading themselves too thinly. My boss at work, who isn't even a computer fan, said - when I told him Microsoft are doing an online store:

'what? why do they have to do everything? Why can't they just do a few things well, rather than try and be a jack of all trades and do it poorly?'

Which is a very valid point. Microsoft seem to behave like a little kid. If they just concentrated on key areas, they would do well, but instead they seem to have to muscle in on every single market there is available, just 'because they can'.

It's gonna bite them on the bum.


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## drustar (Sep 4, 2004)

I know just the thing to blow MS Music Store out of the water... Another iTMS giveaway. That'll have us downloading 100,000,000 more songs.


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## Go3iverson (Sep 4, 2004)

Or an iTMS/iPod promo where you get a $20 gift card with a purchase of an iPod.

If they really want to strike, make an iMac promo, to really boost the pre-orders.  It'll boost market share, further fuse the iMac and iPod, and all that good stuff.  Something like, buy an iMac G5 with SuperDrive, save $50 on a 20GB iPod and get a $25 gift card for the iTunes Music Store.  Buy an iMac G5 with SuperDrive and 40GB iPod, save $50 and get a $50 gift card to the iTMS!

I'm sure Apple could get some sort of deal with the labels to promote it, to further influence new computer buyers to purchase their music instead of downloading it from P2P networks.


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## TommyWillB (Sep 4, 2004)

Or a free ITMS song credit for each DRM Windows Media sound file you "turn in"... 

 i.e. give us all of your Windows Media files and we'll give you back iPod compatible Apple Lossless files.


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## Go3iverson (Sep 4, 2004)

TommyWillB said:
			
		

> Or a free ITMS song credit for each DRM Windows Media sound file you "turn in"...
> 
> i.e. give us all of your Windows Media files and we'll give you back iPod compatible Apple Lossless files.



That sounds like a good idea, but how do you know that the person doesn't have multiple copies or just burned a CD of all that music?  That'll probably be the qualm the record companies would probably have with it.


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## btoth (Sep 4, 2004)

ElDiabloConCaca said:
			
		

> Also, notice that Microsoft has changed their wording from "PC standard WindowsMedia format" to "popular Windows Media format" on that page.




That's hilarious.  I read the original version and laughed... since when was WMA a PC standard?  But it's even funnier that they changed it.  I wonder what brought that on...


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## TommyWillB (Sep 5, 2004)

Go3iverson said:
			
		

> That sounds like a good idea, but how do you know that the person doesn't have multiple copies or just burned a CD of all that music? That'll probably be the qualm the record companies would probably have with it.


Well that's the exact point that DRM (Digital Rights Management) solves. So if these companies trust their own (record company blessed) DRM solutions, then this ought not be an issue. Most people don't have the mechanism to rip a CD into a DRM-encoded digitial file. Also iTunes clearly can tell the difference between a burned CD and the original.

  So in all cases Apple ought to be able to figure out if this is a legitimate copy or not.

 Rember the radical thing about the ITMS was not downloadbable music... It was the fact that they were downloading record-company approved DRM enabled files. Clearly Apple understands this game.


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## TommyWillB (Sep 5, 2004)

btoth said:
			
		

> That's hilarious. I read the original version and laughed... since when was WMA a PC standard? But it's even funnier that they changed it. I wonder what brought that on...


Maybe because it is only standard on WinDoze and not PeeCees running things like Linux... or even older Windows 95/98/NT....


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## chemistry_geek (Sep 5, 2004)

One way Apple could increase its overall market share would be to include several strategies:

1.  Launch a massive iTunes Music Store Give-A-Way (100,000,000 songs) through third party company products (to help drive the economy a little).
2.  Enter your code to participate in an iPod Mini and iPod Give-A-Way.
3.  Enter your code to participate in iMac G5 and PowerMac G5 Give-A-Way.
4.  15% to 20% of the 100,000,000 songs are hardware give-a-ways.

I think Apple would not increase its brand recognition and iTunes Music Store market share, but also its hardware market share.  This would really crinkle Billy Borg's foreheard and deal Micro$oft a triple blow.  The more iPods that are sold, the more likely auto manufacturers (like BMW) will include standard connectors for iPods.  I would love to be able to control an iPod from the steering wheel of my Saab 93.  Apple can afford this, it has some money to burn now to secure additional market share in the future.


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## btoth (Sep 5, 2004)

TommyWillB said:
			
		

> Maybe because it is only standard on WinDoze and not PeeCees running things like Linux... or even older Windows 95/98/NT....


Ha, yeah, I was being sarcastic... should've included the rolly eyes.   Heck, even in Windows I've always avoided WMA in favor of MP3s.  I never though WMA was all that great and I always hated Media Player, especially the later versions that took up the whole screen.


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## Go3iverson (Sep 5, 2004)

TommyWillB said:
			
		

> Well that's the exact point that DRM (Digital Rights Management) solves. So if these companies trust their own (record company blessed) DRM solutions, then this ought not be an issue. Most people don't have the mechanism to rip a CD into a DRM-encoded digitial file. Also iTunes clearly can tell the difference between a burned CD and the original.
> 
> So in all cases Apple ought to be able to figure out if this is a legitimate copy or not.
> 
> Rember the radical thing about the ITMS was not downloadbable music... It was the fact that they were downloading record-company approved DRM enabled files. Clearly Apple understands this game.



I think we missed each other here!  

Ok, so you proposed promo is for people being able to trade in a MSN purchased song to iTMS for a one song credit.  My questions are as follows:

1.  User burns a CD of their MSN music tracks.  User then simply uploads their DRM protected file to iTMS to get a second track for every track they already had.  So that user still has copies of the music.

2.  The issue then becomes cross service account updating.  By that I mean, you buy a song from iTMS, there's a record in your account listing that you have rights to play that song.  Now, if you turn in a MSN track, will MSN really care to proceed with the additional work that iTMS is giving them in deauthorizing that track many times over?  (I hope that was understandable!  I tried!)


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## TommyWillB (Sep 21, 2004)

Go3iverson said:
			
		

> I think we missed each other here!
> 
> Ok, so you proposed promo is for people being able to trade in a MSN purchased song to iTMS for a one song credit. My questions are as follows:
> 
> 1. User burns a CD of their MSN music tracks. User then simply uploads their DRM protected file to iTMS to get a second track for every track they already had. So that user still has copies of the music.


I'm not sure how this works PC-side, but on the Mac iTunes "knows" if you've burned a copy of the song you bought from ITMS. (In fact I think it limits you to only 4 burns... right?) 

 So assuming this is similar with the DRM in Windows Media, then Apple could limit this to only Windows Media files that have NOT been burned.



			
				Go3iverson said:
			
		

> 2. The issue then becomes cross service account updating. By that I mean, you buy a song from iTMS, there's a record in your account listing that you have rights to play that song. Now, if you turn in a MSN track, will MSN really care to proceed with the additional work that iTMS is giving them in deauthorizing that track many times over? (I hope that was understandable! I tried!)


No... I don't understand. What is there to de-authorize? You can't re-download your already authorized Windows Media file... Right?


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## ElDiabloConCaca (Sep 21, 2004)

TommyWillB said:
			
		

> I'm not sure how this works PC-side, but on the Mac iTunes "knows" if you've burned a copy of the song you bought from ITMS. (In fact I think it limits you to only 4 burns... right?)



It's 7 burns, and it only applies to playlists, not individual songs.  You can burn individual songs as many times as you like, just as long as it's not the same playlist more than 7 times.

It's not really a limitation at all -- you can make a playlist, add your songs, make another playlist with the same songs, burn the first playlist 7 times, delete all the songs in that playlist and just copy them back over from the duplicate playlist you created.  As long as the playlist changes ever so slightly, you can burn it unlimited times.


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## Go3iverson (Sep 21, 2004)

TommyWillB said:
			
		

> I'm not sure how this works PC-side, but on the Mac iTunes "knows" if you've burned a copy of the song you bought from ITMS. (In fact I think it limits you to only 4 burns... right?)
> 
> So assuming this is similar with the DRM in Windows Media, then Apple could limit this to only Windows Media files that have NOT been burned.
> 
> No... I don't understand. What is there to de-authorize? You can't re-download your already authorized Windows Media file... Right?





Your allowed unlimited burns of iTMS songs, but only 7 or 10 of a particular playlist.  Change the playlist, your back at zero.  The question is, can you only trade in songs that you've never burned?  Then, will Microsoft, Real, Buy, etc all give Apple ways to check if the DRM protected track has been burned, to qualify for the trade in?

Your right, you can't re-download, but if you transferred it to a FireWire disk, or such, you'd still have the track.  Also, since, for example, Microsoft controls the authorization for usage of DRM protected tracks you purchase from them, will Apple then give Microsoft all the information needed to update each individual user's account for each individual track they trade in to Apple?  

What I'm saying is, I buy a track from MSN.  Apple has a promo for me to trade it in for an iTMS track.  Great!  I back up my MSN track onto a FireWire disk (or some such device) and send my track off to Apple.  They receive the track.  The authorize my iTMS account to have a song credit.  Now, since that original song was authorized by MSN, can't I just keep playing the track?  How will Apple get MSN to de-authorize that specific track for that specific user?  It appears that it would create quite a bit of work for MSN and Apple alike.


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## fryke (Sep 22, 2004)

I'm not quite sure what this discussion's all about now. Such a promo would be _much_ too complicated. And also it would be concentrating on the 'fiend' instead of the customer and the product. Let Apple do promotions, I'm all for that. But let them do stuff like with Pepsi, only better.

One idea: Every iPod automagically comes with five free songs you can choose from iTMS. Makes you a) a customer and b) likely to buy more soon.


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## Go3iverson (Sep 22, 2004)

fryke said:
			
		

> I'm not quite sure what this discussion's all about now. Such a promo would be _much_ too complicated. And also it would be concentrating on the 'fiend' instead of the customer and the product. Let Apple do promotions, I'm all for that. But let them do stuff like with Pepsi, only better.
> 
> One idea: Every iPod automagically comes with five free songs you can choose from iTMS. Makes you a) a customer and b) likely to buy more soon.



That's what I'm in support of.  I agree, the trade in of songs is too complex, which is what I was trying to explain, but evidently not too well. 

I'd like ot see around the holidays, a big iPod/iMac push like I suggested.  I'd like to see $10 gift cards with purchase of an iPod.  I'd like to see $20 gift cards to iTMS with iMac purchase.  If you buy both on one receipt, you get a $35 gift card to iTMS and $50 off the iPod.  

Its still less money than the Cram and Jam deal (buy a portable, get $200 off an iPod), it will increse iPod market share, iTMS market share, and OS X market share (sorta).

You get the iPod, you should be using iTMS, but this will guarantee it.  You buy the iMac, you get $20 in iTunes cash, so then you buy an iPod.  Buy both, great, get $50 back in rebate and $35 in music for dropping $1599+ in one shot at your local Apple Store.


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## applewhore (Sep 23, 2004)

fryke said:
			
		

> One idea: Every iPod automagically comes with five free songs you can choose from iTMS. Makes you a) a customer and b) likely to buy more soon.



Amazon's already offering something like this through their Target shop (?!)

15 free iTunes and free shipping to "enjoy"!  ;-)


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## fryke (Sep 23, 2004)

That's good. But I mean Apple, of course.  Btw.: A really, really good article about a possible future of the music industry can be found at TheRegister today: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/09/23/orlowski_interactive_keynote/


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