# American politics - the truth



## edX (Jul 23, 2004)

http://www.jibjab.com/

isn't this the way it really is? 

(be warned, you will ROTFLYAO!! )


----------



## nixgeek (Jul 24, 2004)

OH......
My......
GOD that was hilarious!!!!  No matter which way you are voting this year! ::ha::

I had even heard about how much attention this was getting in the news.  Too much...


----------



## delsoljb32 (Jul 24, 2004)

hahahha
yeah, heard about that the other day at work, hilarious


----------



## Harvestr (Jul 24, 2004)

edX said:
			
		

> http://www.jibjab.com/
> 
> isn't this the way it really is?
> 
> (be warned, you will ROTFLYAO!! )



Of course it isn't true because Bush IS NOT stupid. Anyone that thinks he is can suck it up as they themselves are the stupid ones.


----------



## chevy (Jul 24, 2004)

Humor is not supposed to be reality.
There is no smoke without fire.
One should judge men of power on the results of their decisions (or absence of decisions).


----------



## edX (Jul 24, 2004)

get a grip Harvestr. all the things said about Kerry aren't true either. this animation is equally offensive to either side if you take it too literally. i wasn't talking about the things that were said in the movie, but rather it's overall view on what level politics really operate at. let's face it, this is the 'exagerated' truth of what our political campaigns generally deteriorate to. it's really sad, which is what makes this so funny - we'd all rather laugh than cry about it. and i think that was the movie maker's real point. he certainly doesn't make anybody out to be the 'good guy'.


----------



## chevy (Jul 24, 2004)

I was the whole week in Roma... impressed by the rests of the imperial Roman architecture... impressed by the popes realizations... and the last day I visited the new (and also impressive) EUR city built by Mussolini. Strange feelings.


----------



## Satcomer (Jul 24, 2004)

http://www.macosx.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44901

I guess you saw this post last week.


----------



## Harvestr (Jul 24, 2004)

edX said:
			
		

> get a grip Harvestr. all the things said about Kerry aren't true either. this animation is equally offensive to either side if you take it too literally. i wasn't talking about the things that were said in the movie, but rather it's overall view on what level politics really operate at. let's face it, this is the 'exagerated' truth of what our political campaigns generally deteriorate to. it's really sad, which is what makes this so funny - we'd all rather laugh than cry about it. and i think that was the movie maker's real point. he certainly doesn't make anybody out to be the 'good guy'.



Politics under Clinton - No matter what the president does, it is someone elses fault.

Politics under Bush - No matter who screws up, it must be the presidents fault.


I have a grip, you all don't and it is why you post CRAP like this. I saw that it bashed both, but I'd rather spend my time trying to find ways to better this country than to just stand and poke fun at it. Sorry.


----------



## Harvestr (Jul 24, 2004)

Harvestr said:
			
		

> I saw that it bashed both, but I'd rather spend my time trying to find ways to better this country than to just stand and poke fun at it. Sorry.



Don't get me wrong, it was humorus and some of the best art in a Flash animation I've seen to date. I am just tired of the bashing is all. Even when done for the pure sake of humor and not hate, I still think it gets a little old. The main reason is everyone thinks they are an expert on what the "real Bush" or the "real Kerry" is. I do think the real Bush is easier to see. Too many Liberals are blind to it though. The real Kerry? Ah hell, even Kerry doesn't know who Kerry is.


----------



## edX (Jul 24, 2004)

no, satcomer, i didn't see that. sorry for double posting. but it's a case where your title had nothing to make me want to check it out. no idea what the thread would be about. it's like posting a title of "Help", i just ignore those. 

tell you what sat, we'll leave them both up and see who gets more views 

Harvestr - fine. i'm not playing this game. this wasn't meant to be a politcal debate. it's humor. i'll bet even Bush and Kerry got laughs out of it.  "if you can't laugh at yourself, it's time to pay more attention to what you're doing".


----------



## TommyWillB (Jul 25, 2004)

Sad, but true... Makes you want to cry and become an expatriate.


----------



## chevy (Jul 26, 2004)

TommyWillB said:
			
		

> Sad, but true... Makes you want to cry and become an expatriate.



Don't expect it to be so much better elsewhere...   

I travel a little bit for my work, and my (current) conclusion is that the western way of doing politics is still the less bad. Sometimes we elect the wrong people, but at least they don't last forever... and we remain responsible for who we (or we don't) elect.


----------



## RGrphc2 (Jul 27, 2004)

Anyone know where i can download This Land so i don't need to be connected to the net to watch it.


----------



## delsoljb32 (Jul 27, 2004)

Lest we forget that it is this system that allows us to discuss these things and have these freedoms we enjoy daily, without fear!!

I love the circular arguments about how the government is terrible and that the system doesnt work, when it is the very system and government that we have that allows us to discuss/argue/berate/praise/approbate it. 

sleep soundly on your pillows this evening while cursing the system that allows it...


----------



## ora (Jul 28, 2004)

RGrphc2 said:
			
		

> Anyone know where i can download This Land so i don't need to be connected to the net to watch it.



For this and other flash animations, open it in internet explorer (I know, its bad but the easiest way i've found), then go to home/Library/preferences/explorer/temporary files and it should be there. Remember,. though, its someone else's work and shouldn't be distributed without their permission- but this does allwo you to view it offline.

On the main subject- i laughed so hard i almost got in trouble at the office, i am being payed to work after all. Humour is best when like this, it attacks all sides, the ones you believe in and the ones you don't. It may go over the top, but there is enough of a kernel of truth in it to make it sting- if you don't know what i mean go watch some Bill Hicks!


----------



## scruffy (Jul 28, 2004)

Apparently they're being sued by the copyright holders of Woody Guthrie's songs.  Presumably that's not the Guthrie family, but some record company - Arlo always seemed pretty mellow, I don't really know about the rest of them.

Incidentally, I always think it's funny how 'this land is your land' is sung in very conservative settings - the boy scouts and such - in a very very stripped down form.  There's only about two verses that don't have overt communist ideology in them, but they'll be darned if they won't sing those two verses over and over...


----------



## scruffy (Jul 28, 2004)

Oh - to download it
http://images2.shockwave.com/afassets/flash/this_land.swf

just look through the page source for urls that end in .swf


----------



## bigbadbill (Jul 28, 2004)

Harvestr said:
			
		

> I do think the real Bush is easier to see. Too many Liberals are blind to it though. The real Kerry? Ah hell, even Kerry doesn't know who Kerry is.



I'm not gonna sugar coat it for you Harvestr  Anyone would be better then the Lying, Cheating, Election Hi-jacking Dumb-ass we have been forced to endure for the last 4 years. The man is a nothing short of a criminal!

My advise to you would be to take an afternoon and go see Fahrenheit 9/11, if you haven't yet, then reconsider wasting your vote on this "Foregin Affairs Disaster" parading around as our leader.

Vote for the Corporation's choice or vote for the people's choice  JUST VOTE!

I would like to invite anyone wanting to learn more about John Kerry to visit http://www.moveonpac.org/


----------



## adambyte (Jul 30, 2004)

By the way, if for some reason you doubt any of the facts or even implications in Fahrenheit 9/11, go buy Moore's book, "Dude, Where's My Country?" It's basically the same thing, but WAY more detailed, and with all the footnotes you could ask for.


----------



## baggss (Jul 31, 2004)

For those of you who don't know it [REMOVED] both the movie and his book are PURE Propaganda, nothing else.  I believe anything Moore says about as much as I believe Rush Limbaugh.  Get a grip on reality folks...


----------



## delsoljb32 (Jul 31, 2004)

baggss said:
			
		

> For those of you who don't know it [REMOVED] both the movie and his book are PURE Propaganda, nothing else.  I believe anything Moore says about as much as I believe Rush Limbaugh.  Get a grip on reality folks...



Amen, he truly is


----------



## bigbadbill (Aug 1, 2004)

baggss said:
			
		

> For those of you who don't know it [REMOVED] both the movie and his book are PURE Propaganda, nothing else.  I believe anything Moore says about as much as I believe Rush Limbaugh.  Get a grip on reality folks...



I keep hearing this ... from people who have'nt even bothered to see the movie. People who are willing to take a stand against it, without having ever even experienced it.


----------



## Viro (Aug 1, 2004)

Ah well, then add me to the list of people who have seen the film and are taking a stand against it.


----------



## TommyWillB (Aug 1, 2004)

Viro said:
			
		

> Ah well, then add me to the list of people who have seen the film and are taking a stand against it.


Fine... If you Brit's like Bush so much, why don't you take him and make him QE's successor to the throne.


----------



## baggss (Aug 2, 2004)

Viro said:
			
		

> Ah well, then add me to the list of people who have seen the film and are taking a stand against it.



Same here.  Good movie, as long as you understand it is PURE propaganda, nothing else....


----------



## baggss (Aug 2, 2004)

TommyWillB said:
			
		

> Fine... If you Brit's like Bush so much, why don't you take him and make him QE's successor to the throne.



Even better, if you hate him so much, why not just leave the country?  Oh and PLEASE take Barbara Streisand with you....


----------



## Viro (Aug 2, 2004)

Hey, who said anything about liking Bush? I don't like Bush, and I think some of the decisions that he makes are really stupid. But that doesn't mean that I like seeing him slandered without any real facts like what Michael Moore does in his film (the Saudi connection, etc). 

Now its very easy to point fingers, and with the benefit of retrospect there probably wasn't any WMDs in Iraq. However, the war is now over, Iraq is being occupied and many people are dying almost daily, Americans and non-Americans alike. The message of Michael Moore's film is "The war is a mistake. Vote out anyone who supports the war." That's his opinion, and that's well and good. But what does he expect the world to do now? Pull out troops from Iraq? Let the place fall into anarchy? Destabilize the entire region?

F 9/11 is a good film, and its a very entertaining watch. However, that's all it is. Entertaining.


----------



## bigbadbill (Aug 2, 2004)

Viro said:
			
		

> The message of Michael Moore's film is "The war is a mistake. Vote out anyone who supports the war."



I don't think we _can_ pull our troops from Iraq now (or ever!?!)

I don't feel that the film's message is "Vote out anyone who supports the war" ... the messages I got:

"What really happened in Florida during the election?"

"How can our President be allowed to use his CIA connections to obtain information for private use?"

"What in the hell did this guy get us into in Iraq, this will never end now!"

and the scene that stuck with me the most was the President's Limo speeding away from the American people protesting during the Inaugural Parade. "Never had an American president been received this way by the people"

There were alot of FACTS exposed here that I for one was not aware of. There were alot of things put in simply for entertainment value. Michael Moore trying to get Senator's to enlist their kids to serve in Iraq had no real relevance to the Bush administration, but it was funny as hell and it made you think.

As far as this film being "propaganda", yes this is wide spread information reflecting the views and interests of those advocating a cause. This is an election year, there is "propaganda" running in 2 minute spots between every sitcom, talk show and reality T.V. show out!

You shouldn't simply dismiss information as "propaganda" because it differs from your own point of view.


----------



## Viro (Aug 2, 2004)

You're right. But then how much of the film was spent with the corporal who was risking a jail sentence because he won't go back to Iraq, or the (very emotional) mother who lost her son in the war?

I'm not dismissing it as propaganda simply because it differs from my own point of view. There are truths in there like what you pointed out. But then there's a lot of conjecture that is nothing more than speculation. For example the Saudi connection, what Bush was thinking when he first heard of the attack (OK, sitting down with a picture book isn't really becoming of the US president, but did Bush deserve all that MM was saying went through his head?), dining with the Saudi ambassador. 

Then there's the bit where MM brilliantly plays the emotions of people, Iraqis who have lost their loved ones and of course, the mother who lost her son in Iraq. Showing such strong emotions on screen is meant to elicit strong emotions from the viewers and drive them to respond in a certain way. And that's where I think MM demonstrates a touch of brilliance in working up people's emotions in order to get people to see things his way.

Even so, there are facts in the film that I didn't know about and really reveals a lot about the competence of the Bush administration. For example, letting all the bin Ladens leave. Like, wha? Or completely ignoring the terror threat that was in a document sent to the President in August.


----------



## Zammy-Sam (Aug 3, 2004)

me against Bush and the current US foreign policy. I am really curious about  Fahrenheit 9/11. From what I have heard about it by now, it is far away from any kind of propaganda. But I will need to watch it and make my own decission.


----------



## scruffy (Aug 3, 2004)

From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) [web1913]:
  Propaganda \Prop`a*gan"da\, n. [Abbrev. fr. L. de propaganda
     fide: cf. F. propagande. See {Propagate}.]
     1. (R. C. Ch.)
        (a) A congregation of cardinals, established in 1622,
            charged with the management of missions.
        (b) The college of the Propaganda, instituted by Urban
            VIII. (1623-1644) to educate priests for missions in
            all parts of the world.

     2. Hence, any organization or plan for spreading a particular
        doctrine or a system of principles.

From WordNet (r) 2.0:
  propaganda
       n : information that is spread for the purpose of promoting some
           cause

Just because something is propaganda doesn't in any way imply it isn't true - it's just information meant for propagating, and which supports some point of view or cause.


----------



## fryke (Aug 3, 2004)

scruffy: Since Hitler's propaganda machine in WWII, the word 'propaganda' is negatively 'taken'. WordNet (and others) should be updated with such things.


----------



## TommyWillB (Aug 6, 2004)

baggss said:
			
		

> Even better, if you hate him so much, why not just leave the country? Oh and PLEASE take Barbara Streisand with you....


Ha ha... 

  Streisand....

  Ouch...

  Ha ha..

  What an insult...

  Why not just come all the way out and just call me fag... Which I am.


 Yep... Running off to homo-land right now...


----------



## scruffy (Aug 6, 2004)

fryke - propaganda may well have have a negative or disapproving connotation for even longer than that, but it doesn't change the meaning.  Propaganda is certainly generally one-sided - otherwise it wouldn't be as effective at swaying people's opinion - but that's all.

My point was - you can't just say something is "propaganda" and then act as though you've refuted the facts in it - something can easily be both true, and propaganda.

When I was volunteering in an election campaign about 4-5 years ago, people regularly talked about propaganda - "I had some new propaganda printed up, who'll put up some posters?"  It's not that we were lying in our posters and leaflets - just that we acknowledged that we were listing only facts that backed up the position of our party, so we used the appropriate word for them: propaganda.

Incidentally - Wordnet 2.0 is © 2003 Princeton University.  The American Heritage® Dictionary of English , Fourth Edition, © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company, and Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc. have essentially the same definition in them (I just checked dictionary.com).  So it's not that the definition is somehow not current.



			
				TommyWillB said:
			
		

> Yep... Running off to homo-land right now...


You're moving to Canada?  Glad to have you!


----------



## baggss (Aug 9, 2004)

TommyWillB said:
			
		

> Ha ha...
> 
> Streisand....
> 
> ...



Wow, so much anger in you.  Lighten up buddy.....


----------



## chevy (Aug 11, 2004)

Not too serious.... frankly


----------



## adambyte (Aug 11, 2004)

*jaw drops* That's horrible!

I love it!


----------



## bigbadbill (Aug 11, 2004)

Is that actual campaign footage?


----------



## baggss (Aug 11, 2004)

Yes, provided, of corse, by the Kerry Campaign...


----------



## MDLarson (Aug 11, 2004)

I'm not trying to dampen the light mood in this thread, but I have the same question every time somebody characterizes Bush as "small-brained":  How is it possible for a person to believe that Bush is a stupid, dumb simpleton, and *at the same time* give him credit for subverting the minds and souls of every inhabitant on the earth (the work of an evil genius)?  Please explain how both things can be true.

By the way, I thought the JibJab movie was hilarious.


----------



## edX (Aug 12, 2004)

and there you have it - if Matt can laugh at it, i don't understand why everybody can't!! 

as for your question Matt, i'd have to agree. but maybe half of the people think he's a simpleton and the other half think he's an evil genuis. still, you've got a good point. i tend to think he's a pretty intelligent guy, but not an Einstein by a long shot.


----------

