# The Register Follow up article



## FrgMstr (Jan 5, 2002)

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/35/23562.html

Responses to the last article i posted up.


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## FrgMstr (Jan 5, 2002)

What no comments, no clever come backs etc  

This is highly unlike one of my threads


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## allengoodman (Jan 5, 2002)

Does anyone else think "Tog" is an idiot?

Seriously . . . That guy always seems to get on my nerves.


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## RacerX (Jan 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by FrgMstr _
> *What no comments, no clever come backs etc
> 
> This is highly unlike one of my threads *



I haven't quite figured out why you post here to begin with. From what I can tell, based on the few of your posts that I have read, you are NOT in anyway a Mac user. So, why come to a Mac site and insight problems? I'm note sure where either of the Register's articles make any difference to you at all (or myself for that matter).

I think a response to this response would be far more interesting than any of the threads I've seen you start so far.


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## FrgMstr (Jan 5, 2002)

I will probably be getting a Mac next week, dont know which one though. Will wait and see what jobs shows us on Monday.

If you dont find any of my posts relevent to what you find interesting dont bother with them. Simple as that, we have had quite a few good conversation on here before.


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## RacerX (Jan 5, 2002)

Wow, what a change in attitude. Didn't you want a response? And as for good conversation, answering my question would be a great way to start one. You did want *comments* and *clever come backs* didn't you?


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## vanguard (Jan 5, 2002)

FrgMstr,

I'm glad you're going to get a mac.  I think you'll be able to do *most* of your schoolwork on it.  However, I'm thinking of getting VPC so that I can run windows apps too.  For example, I was thinking the other night that if I was designing a entity relationship diagram (your homework assignment) I can't think of an OSX based tool I would use to help me.

In a nutshell, OSX can only do 90% of what I need.  Windows can do it all but it's no fun.  I don't want Windows, I use it all the time at work and it's just not fun to use.

As for this article, I don't really have any thoughts that I didn't publish in your first thread.  He nitpicks at really minor stuff and seems unwilling to make tiny changes.  (Also, what's his deal with the dock being unmovable?  I put mine in the upper right corner and it's never in the way now.)

I think it would be fun to nitpick on the UI of his article.  He only uses the middle third of the browser and that makes for a very narrow and long article that's incredibly hard to read.  He's such a lazy SOB that he didn't bother to fix the formatting on emails that word wrapped improperly.  What I get is stuff like this:

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah 
blah blah blah 
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah 
blah blah blah .

He seperated his feedback into pro, netural, and anti but the seperaters are so visually insignifigant that I didn't realize that I have switched.

Sorry, the UI on his article is so lousy that I simply can't use it.  I'm switching to slashdot until he gets his act cleaned up.


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## FrgMstr (Jan 5, 2002)

This hasnt been a change in attitude at all, ive always been like this.

Vanguard tell me about it, there are No CASE tools that i know of for the MAC. I.E SSADM, SEQSIM.


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## RacerX (Jan 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by FrgMstr _
> *This hasnt been a change in attitude at all, ive always been like this.*



So you ask for people to engage you, but then you retreat once they do  ? How do you have conversations with an attitude like that.


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## FrgMstr (Jan 5, 2002)

Not my fault you mis-understodd me from the beginning. Im not retreating, what would i be retreating over?


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## RacerX (Jan 5, 2002)

How have I misunderstood you?

Here, lets try this again, shall we.

Why have you come to a Mac site and tried to insight things and what difference did this (and the other) article make to you personally?

Seem straight forward to me.


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## simX (Jan 6, 2002)

(I posted this message in the other thread, too.)

Let me point something out.

The guy at The Register has many serious flaws in his "findings".  Obviously, some people aren't well-versed in statistics.

1) A lot of those letters didn't say if they were really Mac users or not.  How do you know they aren't PC users who are looking to the Mac, but decided to abandon it because of Aqua?

2) How do you know this is an accurate slice of the Mac users?  For all we know, it could be that Mac users who read The Register are prominently OS 9 users, and not OS X users.  It would be like coming to MacOSX.com, and taking a poll on whether the MacOS X was a good operating system -- obviously, because of the name of this site, most people here use OS X and would rate it well.  It cannot be determined if the e-mails that this author received is an accurate slice of the Mac users, so his "statistics" are totally invalid.  *There can be no discussion on this point, because we need an accurate piece of the Mac users before we make any conclusions.  Period.*

3) This is a point that many might argue is wrong.  But I wouldn't put it past this guy (since he obviously hates Aqua) at The Register to post most of the e-mails that hate Aqua, and then only include some of them that like Aqua, so that it appears he is correct.  Because any e-mails go through HIS hands, he can manipulate the data any way he wants.  So, again, we cannot draw any conclusions from the e-mails he got because of this possibility.  Note that I am saying it is a possibility.

4) The author only received e-mails from people who are connected to the internet.  The author only received e-mails from people who SAW the article.  This introduces *TREMENDOUS BIAS*.  Just this makes the statistic flawed.

So, no, you cannot say that most Mac users hate or have serious reservations about aqua.

Let me reiterate, and I will base this statement solely on point 2 and 4 above. *The Register's portrayal of Mac users hating Aqua is a fundamentally flawed statistic, and therefore it should not, and cannot, be taken seriously.  Even if 100% of the e-mails this author receives hate Aqua, it still cannot be said that most Mac users hate aqua.*

If you want to find out a TRUE proportion of Mac users who hate aqua, you would need to: 1) Get a list of all Mac users.  2) Get a random number table or generator.  3) Use the random number generator to randomly pick a select few Mac users.  4) Call the randomly picked Mac users up, and ask them if their opinion of Aqua.  Only *THEN* would this be an accurate statistic.  But obviously, this isn't a feasible experiment.  The closest you would get is to get a phone book for, say, Santa Clara county in California.  Then use a random number generator to pick, say, 10000 people.  Call them up.  First ask if they are Mac users.  If they are, then ask their opinion about Aqua.  If they are not, then discard them from the study.  You would have to do this region by region.  If you want to get a true proportion of Mac users who hate Aqua in the US, you'd have to get a list of all the people in the US, and randomly select people that way (averaging the proportions of regions would not be a valid statistic because you have stratified, or grouped, via region).

Sorry, The Register.  I do not believe you that most Mac users hate Aqua.


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## edX (Jan 6, 2002)

hi frgmstr, not to take anything away from you and yours, but i've been posting in the 'other thread' on this subject. seems we should all get together in one spot for this except you and racerx have been doing pretty good here. 

simx does have a point, even if it is overstated. college freshmen can be like that so please be lenient 

definitly a good time to be patient lookin for a mac. keep in mind that most people selling used macs aren't going to know mwsf from their neighbor's bar mitzvah so overall used prices wil not drop as rapidly as new prices. on the other hand there will be some folks in the know who will be anxious to unload their current gear to buy the latest!! hope you get something very close to your pc in terms of capabilities so you can make a fair evaluation once it's in your hands.

really, stop in the other thread for my say on this 2nd article.


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## simX (Jan 6, 2002)

2 threads, 2 shmeads.  Who cares? 

I know I overstated my point, but I wanted to get it across.


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## edX (Jan 6, 2002)

> 2 threads, 2 shmeads. Who cares?



is this the same person who get annoyed if somebody posts twice in a row in the same thread


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## simX (Jan 6, 2002)

It wasn't 2 posts in a row, it was *4* posts in a row, silly.  

Stop making me look idiotic!   (Naw, j/k.  )


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## edX (Jan 6, 2002)

simx, you will never look idiotic in my eyes. a bit overly enthusiastic maybe, but never idiotic. and i can think of a lot worse things to be than over enthusiastic. i hope you carry just half of it with you into middle age and beyond!! 

despite what you imagine - your friend EdX (he he)


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## FrgMstr (Jan 6, 2002)

Racerx, OK let me spell this out for you.

I use this Forum because im thinking of getting a MAC.

I pointed out those articles because they were of relevence to.......... you guessed it OSX(This is an OSX forum isnt it?). I know they werent of the favourable kind like you like to see but hey thats life m8.


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## RacerX (Jan 6, 2002)

As I said earlier, the article was not of much interest to me. But there is a difference between pointing out an article and inviting negative response (of which I don't think you have ever gotten from me, m8). Less we forget, your second post in this thread was asking about responses of a type you seem to expect (and you did seem to expect them, now didn't you).

So why create a hostile atmosphere if all you are doing is considering get a Mac?


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## FrgMstr (Jan 6, 2002)

Of course, i was waiting for thoughts on the article, i was also expecting clever come backs as per the norm around here.

Not starting anything, M8.

I also used smillies in my second post, which to normal people would have said i was messing around. obviously you are unable to grasp the tone of my writing. Would you like me to use big words for you like (IM JOKING) instead.

Give it a rest, your points really are getting a bit old hat, i mean after explaining it to you more then once you still ask the same questions.

I point out the opinion of many many mac users to a MAC forum and im looking for trouble, LMAO.


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## RacerX (Jan 6, 2002)

Boy, did someone get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning or what? I don't thing I'm missing the tone here, you really need to lighten up (which is strange considering you seem to be saying that your other posts were in jest).

You should be ready for anything if you start threads of this nature (and I wasn't even attacking you here). You seem like a nice enough guy, but I could start picking on you if you wanted   (that was a joke, just thought I would add this because you don't seem to be in a joking mood this morning).


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## FrgMstr (Jan 6, 2002)

Very good, you could pick my tone, I am in a bad mood this morning. Only had 8 hours sleep last night, i need atleast 12


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## RacerX (Jan 6, 2002)

I haven't had any yet, so i'm getting a little punchy  .

8 hours of sleep sound great right now... off to bed  .


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## serpicolugnut (Jan 6, 2002)

in the other thread, the Andrew Orlowski article bashing Aqua is really just one man's rant backed up with his opinions, none of which hold much weight. 
For instance...

His first point...

*1) It's Sticky...
Unless it's been hidden manually, the Dock is always visible, and guaranteed to overlay the foreground application window. Now, many Carbon applications don't know where the Dock is, so if you maximise an application, the window's resize handle (and there's only one) is now inaccessible. So off you go, and hide the dock, just so you can grab the handle and resize the window? 
* 

His argument about the dock is so weak he even offers the solution right in his statement.. "Unless it's been hidden manually...". Well, then just HIDE IT and your problem is solved. I keep my dock hidden at all times, either on the bottom or the right, depending on how much screen real estate I am working with (bottom on my TiBook, right on my G4/800DP with 1280x1024 res.)

Next point...

*It's slow...* 
It's been beaten to death. If you have a machine that falls below the G4/400 line, it's a given that OS X's GUI will run slower on your hardware. However, OS X's GUI has advantages over 9's that can dramatically speed up work done in the Finder, - *if you bother to learn and use them.* For instance, I don't have to move my mouse to a volume and double click on it to browse it (like in OS9). I just use command N and there it is. Ditto for going straight to my home, applications, or iDisk folder. All have keyboard shortcuts that save a ton of time. I can also access Favorites from the Finder menu, or from the Finder toolbar if I choose to put them there. All it requires is a simple drag and drop. In OS 9, to add an alias to the Apple menu, you have to open the System Folder>Apple Menu Options. Find the folder with the item you want to alias, and then drag the alias to the Apple Menu Options Folder. It's not too difficult, but it isn't nearly as simple as the OS X equivilent. Again, you have to adjust your thinking a little to take advantage of these new time saving features.

*3) It's Patronising...* 
Mr. Orlowski complains about how everything (Icons, Meunu Bar, Widgets, etc) is larger in OS X and it sucks away your screen real estate. While there is truth to this statement, he fails to mention that everything (save the System Font used in the Menubar) can be scaled to whatever size you deem appropriate. The icons, the dock all can be adjusted to as small as you want, or as large as you want. WindowsXP's new Luna UI suffers from the same "enlargement", and although you can revert to the Classic Windows UI (blech), how is that any easier than manually adjusting your dock size and your Icon size? It isn't.

*4) Obey the Steve.* 
Here's where his argument loses cohesiveness and just becomes a random, unorganized diatribe. Basically to sum up, Mr. Orlowski is unhappy about Apple going it alone with Aqua, and not allowing the OS to be themed. I'll agree with this to some degree. I think Apple should have at least had a Platinum like backup for those who found Aqua distasteful. However, the OS is only 10 months old, and already there are around 2 dozen themes that can replace the liquidity of Aqua with something more platinum-esque. I understand why Apple, at least at this moment wants Aqua as the sole UI for OS X. They are trying to build a "brand" (OS X), and to offer other themes out of the box will confuse people as to what OS X looks like, and to a lesser extent, what it is/does. I do feel strongly that Apple should at least not get in the way of theme developers. If someone wants to re-theme their OS, they shouldn't be stopped.

From here in out, the article mostly just crticizes the Dock (ala Tog's rant). Please, look at this screen capture of my desktop (below). The Dock is hidden. If I were using ASM, or Menustrip, or FruitMenu, or DragThing, I could never have to interact with the dock at all (except for those times when I accidentally roll over it). Again, let me say it in caps so you can hear it - IF YOU DONT LIKE THE DOCK - HIDE IT AND DONT USE IT. 

As for what Mr. Orlowski should do with his G4, he can send it my way. I'll even pay for shipping...


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## serpicolugnut (Jan 6, 2002)

Forgot to upload the pic of my desktop...

Notice - no dock.


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## simX (Jan 6, 2002)

What menu extra is that farthest to the left, serpi (can I call you that?  )?  I've never seen it before.


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## serpicolugnut (Jan 6, 2002)

That's Stuffit Deluxe 6.5's Magic Menu for OS X.


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## apb3 (Jan 30, 2002)

and here is his response in it's entirety:



> >Seems to me you have some ulterior motive in bashing the OS X interface.
> 
> 
> Yes, of course. I want it fixed. Unless you're trying to tell me
> ...


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## apb3 (Jan 30, 2002)

He misquoted me!


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## FrgMstr (Jan 30, 2002)

Well you have to admit that was pretty good, the crapping in your kitchen bit, probably true too.


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## apb3 (Jan 30, 2002)

I want to make sure I'm reading you correctly. You actually think that I would like Apple taking a crap in my kitchen (no matter how figuratively it may have been meant)?

I would hope you would give me more credit than to think I blindly love all things Apple - crap included. You should do a little research before you start jumping on an ill-informed, childish and unprofessional bandwagon.

I criticize where criticism is due in several fora both online and in consulting groups.

I will not, however, abide false statements presented as fact. Something at which  Mr. Orlowski seems quite adept.

If I read your comment wrong, I apologize. If not, think twice before characterizing individuals you have never "met" and on whom you have done no research as relates to their character, qualifications and opinions.


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## RacerX (Jan 30, 2002)

I think that his response was in very poor taste. But I also have to admit that it doesn't surprise me though. The articles I have read don't reflect a majority of the Mac community, either in stance or tone.

From the first time FrgMstr posted a link I knew that both Orlowski and FrgMstr where going for shock value. And Orlowski's reply sounds like something he has had to write quite a lot (he sounds fed-up we getting opinions that differ from his own). If I had gotten a _few_ e-mails differing from my opinion, but a majority supporting it, I would not have felt the need to write such a heated response.


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## RacerX (Jan 30, 2002)

apb3,

I think you read it right, and I think FrgMstr has just past over the line. I would offically call him a troll at this point. I had hoped he was better than that, but what can you stay. He posts like a troll.


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## apb3 (Jan 30, 2002)

Sad thing is, I often like the register. I am trying to keep an open mind but if the editors allow such tripe, it makes one wonder...


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## FrgMstr (Jan 31, 2002)

well actually i was just saying it was funny(you lot take things to seriously and have no sense of humour), you know what i dont really care if you think im a troll cos i really lost confidence in this forum ages ago- they dont actually believe in free speech- just thought id pop in to see how things were going since one of my old threads was reopened.

Cant really be bothered about what people think now goong by past experience in here now i just say it and if people dont like it tough it just proves my point.

sorry


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## ulrik (Jan 31, 2002)

FrgMstr as we know and *love* him


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## FrgMstr (Jan 31, 2002)

why thanks ulrik   did ya miss me


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## apb3 (Jan 31, 2002)

This is one of the most open and least moderated boards I've come across. Again, it seems your facts are in error. Nothing surprising there...

Or perhaps "free speech" to you simply means speech with which you agree.


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## FrgMstr (Feb 1, 2002)

apb3 tell you what m8, go to www.visordown.com, compare

and then tell me if this is a free speech board, ive had perfectly decent threads deleted on here so dont go telling me whats free and whats not, i think you should realise in life that just cos you dont see it doesnt me it doesnt happen so do us all a favour and go grow up or try living in the real world.


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## ulrik (Feb 1, 2002)

Ah, it was great as long as it lastet...


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## FrgMstr (Feb 1, 2002)

thats just my point, if i considered free speech anything which i agreed with, it would still be free speech cos thats what free speech is, its FREE, it means you can say ANYTHING and if others dont like it they can lump it.


for those of you that are interested ther is a good couple of articles on www.theinquirer.net about Apple and AMD a pretty good read.


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## roger (Feb 1, 2002)

That is not what free speech is. Free speech is allowing people to have political views without persecution. It is not the right to be abusive without any comeback (I am not saying that anyone is being abusive on this thread). 

This is a forum for the OSX community to share ideas and views on a specific subject. If the moderators feel that a post is detrimental to the OS X community or the forum then why should it appear on this forum? That does not mean that criticism is not allowed - on the contrary. Good quality criticism will enhance the OS X community and will increase the quality of the product and its awareness. That is the point of a lot of the discussion in this thread. The article was not good quality criticism and that was why it was not well received.

I feel that the moderators do a good job. I have seen too many forums degerate into slagging matches (which are of no use to anyone) in the name of free speech.

R.


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## RacerX (Feb 1, 2002)

The post above covers most of the points that I would have made on the _free speech_ issue, so lets look at that article you linked us to.

As one of the only people in this forum who works in an Apple OS on an x86 systems on a daily basis, I have no problem with the _idea_ of a 64-bit OS X versions for either AMD or IBM's POWER3/POWER4 series processors. The only problem is that I also have a very long memory for past events. After two years of work Apple produced a workstation OS for both Macs and PCs that was very stable, very fast, and very easy to use. On the eve of it's release some of the developers that are sighted in the article as _very, VERY dedicated partners_ said out right that they would _not_ rework their apps for the new OS because it didn't have a pre-existing customer base and the cost of porting their apps was too high. Over the next two years Apple developed Carbon to make the initial cost of porting pre-existing apps much less expensive and made the Classic environment both fully connected and rootless in the new OS so that users would still have their original apps to use while moving to the new system.

Basically, Rhapsody died because of what the DoJ called the _Applications Barrier_ that has killed off many good  operating systems (both OS/2 Warp and BeOS come to mind), and Mac OS X has survived by producing what would best be described as a _running start_ based mainly on the pre-existing apps for the Mac OS on the 32-bit PowerPC platform. I would also point out that some of those _very, Very dedicated partners_ have taken up to a year to produce any of the major apps needed for Mac OS X to stand on it's own without Classic (last time I checked Adobe still hasn't given a release date for the native version of Photoshop).

People are not going to use a system that doesn't have any applications, and developers are not going to write for a system that has no users. Apple took two years to create a bridge for both developers and users to come to the new OS together (and it was a shaky bridge at that) on a relatively constant hardware platform. How long do you think it is going to take to make the same type of bridge to a different hardware environment? Think about it, how would todays current Classic apps and native apps run in a future _Classic_ that had to be able to run apps designed for 32-bit PowerPC on a 64-bit AMD system. I can tell you, it would be very much like running Windows apps in VirtualPC on a Mac today. You can do it, but if all I had was Windows apps and there weren't any Mac apps, I would not buy a Mac just to run everything in VPC.



> _By the INQUIRER_
> *But Apple will have a brand new OS X-64, an untouchable user interface with world renowned ease of use, a design style only seen in galleries, and the stability of Unix.*



Yes it would have all that, and have _no users_ or _developers_, just this great system. Steve Jobs did something like that once, only he was one of the first to move into the 32-bit platform, and the company wasn't Apple. He has tried the _build it and they'll come_ idea twice, once with NeXT and once with Apple (Rhapsody). Both were like the best parties ever... that no one came to.


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## apb3 (Feb 1, 2002)

Funny that you, FRGMstr, preach free speech and then you tel me what NOT to tell you.
 Guess the post belies the poster.

Everyone covered just about all of your other logic flaws in the free speech argument, but just go ahead and say ANYTHING you want. You might start with "Do you smell Bacon??!" to a cop, The "N" word to any of my black friends or "Fire!" (the classic example cited by court after court) in a crowded movie house.... 

Wouldn't want to be your defense attorney in that case...


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## FrgMstr (Feb 1, 2002)

Look man, whatever. If i wanted to say to a copper "do you smell bacon" theres nothing he could do about it, im simply asking a question. Being racist is being racist at the end of the day, however if i said i hate N*****(not that i do but since you bought it up) in general im perfectly within my rights to do so, those are my feelings and im allowed to express them verbally so long as im not infringing on someone elses rights as i do so. 

Its as simple as that.


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## tismey (Feb 1, 2002)

I'd personally class being racially abusive as 'infringing someone else's right', but hey, what do I know?

You are right, of course. Technically you can say what you like, all the time, to whoever you choose. Just don't expect people to like it, and be willing to back up what you have to say with something more tangible than 'I can say what I like, so I'm going to'. Just because you have the power to say what you like, doesn't mean you should. I'm not talking self-censorship, so much as general consideration.

As impartial in this thing, having just stumbled into this thread I think that whilst RacerX may have been a _little_ harsh in his criticism of your attitude to start with, you haven't done yourself any favours with your replies. People here are generally helpful and polite, we are fortunate to have a very leniant Admin who seems to run the boards on a 'treat them like adults and they'll behave like it' policy and in general this generosity has paid off and we've ended up having a nice friendly forum with a minimum of bitching.

And to be fair, posting a link to an OSX-bashing article in an OSX forum is bound to receive a negative response, particularly when this seems to be the main thrust of most of your posts. 

In conclusion, I do hope that nothing that has been said here in this forum will prejudice you against the Apple platform or the people who use it, but do take a step back, try and read your posts from an objective standpoint and perhaps you can see where some people are coming from.


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## FrgMstr (Feb 1, 2002)

now that was well put. thats exactly what i mean, no one has to like what you say, but you still have a right to say it.

I see what you mean but i do also post the follow ups to articles both good and bad.

being racist is abusive i agree.


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## apb3 (Feb 1, 2002)

I believe you are confusing (or I am) political speech with speech in general. Read the case law. Courts have consistently held that you DO have the right to state opinions and I have fought to defend our constitution and those very rights as many have.

On the other hand you DO NOT have the right to say ANYTHING as you have stated repeatedly. Maybe this is where we are missing each other's points... 

Again check the case law. I notice you neglected to counter my "shouting fire in a crowded theater" argument (the classic ConLaw example)... You absolutely do not have that right. And, I think you realize that.

Insulting an officer of the law is a crime. Check the statutes. I think the thinly veiled "do I smell Bacon" statement would qualify as an insult in most jurisdictions and depending on the circumstances and the judge. Or, in a confrontation with an individaul not a member of law enforcement, words of that nature are what are called "Fighting Words" and are grounds for a defense of self-defense to any violence that may occur as a result.
The case law, again, bears this out all the way back from English Common Law (and even Roman Laws) to the present day.

Defamation and libel are actionable in a court of law.

Re: the "N" word or any other racist comment, courts are more and more moving to restrict and/or ban this type of speech as well. There are many Hate speech/ Hate Crime laws on the books. 

Look, I hate censorship in all its forms. I have never deleted a thread. Admin preaches a pretty much hands off policy. 

But, we live in a society of laws. I work in that system of laws. When we all "signed-up" for this Social Contract thing, we (society) agreed that with every freedom comes an even more important responsibility. Unfortunately, some/many want all the freedoms with none of the responsibilities. "Saying ANYTHING just cuz I can" reeks of that attitude.


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## FrgMstr (Feb 1, 2002)

yes apb3 that is correct but lets be honest here, those instances which you mention are extremes, i am guilty of none of them with regards to this forum though.


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## apb3 (Feb 1, 2002)

I believe claiming you have the right to say ANYTHING is extreme. Thus, my counter with facts to back it up.

And, no, those cases are not extreme (well the tired old crying fire... thing is - but it illustrates a point; look beyond the simple example to the core issue it raises). They happen every day. I've seen innumerable clients in these situations.


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## roger (Feb 1, 2002)

Actually this brings up an interesting point - which laws are appropriate to a forum on the internet. There are many countries represented here. Remember the case of France banning (I think it was) Yahoo because of certain auctions on that site. Different countries have very different freedom of speech laws.

R.


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## edX (Feb 1, 2002)

the issue of country and laws is simple - the site is registered and holds physical location in the US. US law applies to this site. the state and community law in which it originates are also applicable. 

this has been a great discussion on free speech. well worth the lack of thought that started it.  

so frgmstr - are you getting a bit ancy waiting on the new mac to arrive?


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## apb3 (Feb 1, 2002)

well put.

I deal with similar issues almost daily. it does make your head spin sometimes...

and despite our differences, FRG, I have enjoyed our discorse (or is it discord?!) AND, I too want to know when you get your new mac...

I also hope you find this board and it's members helpful and pretty open-minded. Maybe you just had a bad experience. We do keep this very free-form and open. Just beware The Herve... We have our theories re: him 

Found out today my wife's lab ordered her a new dual 1GHz and got the cinema display (this to go with her TiBook! which I promptly liberated) Man, if I only had her lab (she's a PhDer at Harvard - almost finished). They PAY her to go there plus a monthly stipend! I had to pay for Law School all on my lonesome. Go figure. Guess I'm just a chump.

Shoul've skipped Law School and just got my PhD in BioInformatics like I'm doing now. Could still do Patent Law but wouldn't have the J.D. after my name. big deal.

Anyway, hope there's no hard feelings here. Just us discussing our opinions. And, like Ed says, it has turned out to be quite interesting. I'd like to hear more opinions on the topic from others.

Moderator, maybe move this to another area?


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