# I give up



## jverd (Jun 6, 2001)

I've had it. After all the hype and propaganda, OSuX is just another lame Apple attempt to try and claim there's actual meat behind its artsy fartsy graphics.

* Java is slow, slow, slow. Not just Swing either. On a dual 450 G5, 512 MB RAM, a non-gui test suite took 4 times as long as what it did on a 300 MHz Pentium, which was busy doing other stuff at the time, while the Mac was not.

* It ignores the CD most of the time. Computer CDs don't show up on the desktop, audio CDs don't play. Sometimes it doesn't let me eject no matter what I do, and I have to restart. 

* Arbitrarily opens the drawer on the external CD burner.

* The dock is a joke. Ooh, it magnifies as you fly over it. Big deal. At least in Windows I know that each window will have a button on the toolbar, or whatever it's called, regardless of whether its hidden or what. With OSuX's completely non-intuitive dock, I have to guess where it is--or whether it's even there--based on wheter it's an app or a doc, hiding or not, minimized or not. Pffftt!! Forget it!

* The kernel would be nice as a backend to a good GUI. To this lousy GUI, it doesn't add much. If I want Unix with a lousy GUI, I'll use Linux and KDE. Way better Unix, somewhat better GUI.

* Where are all the apps? Are software vendors so unwilling to commit to OSuX that they're all waiting for everyone else to jump on the bandwagon? If they thought this was going to have promise, and assuming Apple made the SDKs available in a timely fashion, there should be scads more software available than there is. So did Apple drop the ball and not give developers a shot at it early enough? Or is nobody willing to commit to devloping, because they can see that it's just a dead end?

* It's too hard to distinguish the active title bar from the non active ones.

* When is Apple going to get true multi-button mouse support (like Windows has had for a long time)?

* When is Apple going to get decent keyboard shortcuts (like Windows has had for a long time)?

* When is Apple going to provide a decent help system, with actual content (like Windows has had for a long time)?

I detest Microsoft, but as of now, I'm gladly going over to the dark side. Windows has surpassed or at least equalled Apple in every area where Apple used to (and still claims to) hold superiority, and Apple's response has been anemic at best.

Good riddance, Macintrash.


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## strobe (Jun 7, 2001)

The point in having no shortcuts is making your own. At least that's possible in MacOS...lacking feature in OS X. Same with multiple mouse buttons.

It'll be interesting what QuickKeys for OS X looks like, if it's still being worked on.


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## RacerX (Jun 7, 2001)




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## AdmiralAK (Jun 7, 2001)

It seems like this guy is window-eyed lol 


Admiral


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## apb3 (Jun 7, 2001)

Sigh.

If any of your arguments made sense or held the smallest kernel of truth, I might bother to respond to them one by one. Instead, I respond in general...

Do you actually own a 300MhZ Intel processor? If you do and it beat a dualie G4 (or G5 as you say) by 4x, what were you doing, rebooting the Mac during the test?

For the record, there is substantial MEAT behind OS X's GUI. Grade A Prime Angus.
Up and running since day 1. No crashes, minimal problems - all three of them easily remedied in under 30 minutes.

My WinBlows crate at work crashes at least once a day - and I know what I'm doing. I have to support all the  Eloi at work who know nothing (or worse yet, think they know something) about GatesWare and let me tell you, my phone never stops ringing.

The Mac users at work (right now about 75% at 9.1 and the rest at X) rarely, if ever call for support. They figure it out themselves if they ever even have a problem in the first place. Lately all the calls I've been getting from the 9.1 users relate to, "When am I gonna get OS X?"

Anecdote:
	I was on a recent trip to Iceland. In Schipol Airport during a two hour layover I opened my wife's TiBook with X installed. Started editing our Iceland videos from my Canon Elura DV. Instant crowd. The TiBook did the initial draw, but once they saw what I was doing (some only moderately intricate editing - adding a soundtrack - Bjrk of course - , effects, splicing scenes, etc) they went apeshit! Two businessmen actually ordered TiBooks right there on the spot from Apple's Store (guess I've got their credit card info on my wife's machine  ) and spoke about recommending them for their consultants.

Let me get this straight. You LIKE the winblows taskbar? This is more intuitive than the dock? Not my dock. Not the way I have mine set up. I'd be happy to help you if you truly care enough to give X a chance... message me.

Never had a problem recognizing any volume (PC, Mac, network or otherwise) in X. Shows up in my Finder Column View (I have the show disks on desktop turned off - personal preference).

Maybe some of the hardware with which you are having issues isn't currently supported? I'm sure drivers are on their way. This is the early days of Os X. The updates so far have exceeded my expectations. Let's see what surprises are in store for July (or earlier)...

I'd be happy to address your other concerns but I'm sleepy and I think you already know the answers anyway. Well, you've succeeded in drawing me out. If you seriously would like to discuss your issues, message me.


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## davidbrit2 (Jun 7, 2001)

Hey, so I'm not the only one that uses column view with nothing on the desktop. I guess we're some of the few that don't go cowering into the corner at the slightest mention of change.


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## endian (Jun 7, 2001)

heh heh I use column view with tons of crap on the desktop, does that make me schizophrenic?


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## davidbrit2 (Jun 7, 2001)

Nah, just flexible. One day I realized that if I used colums and cleaned off the desktop, I would never have to hide an app again (unless someone were trying to spy on me, of course.) Naturally, I jumped all over this.


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## RacerX (Jun 7, 2001)

Not having anything on the desktop was one of the first things that scared many people about Mac OS X when they saw the early screen shoots. As for column, I've been using Greg's browser for a long time in Classic, I've always love navigating my system that way.


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## apb3 (Jun 7, 2001)

Now if I could just get column view on my Atari 400.

I guess that would make me schizophrenic as well - Atari 400 = afraid of change ; column view = embrace change.....

Anyway, was the original poster really serious or just chumming the waters. I admit I fell for it and actually tried to help... Silly me.


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## Soapvox (Jun 8, 2001)

The column view is one (of many, many many) the best improvements in my opine. I use it in all my save dialogs as well. As a developer, you can be in your includes folder and see the files you are working on and make sure you are using the right path... such a time saver!


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## AdmiralAK (Jun 8, 2001)

In 9 I still have a lot of stuff on my desktop, thats the way I like it, in OS X that changes lol.  Very little on my desktop 

I use list view


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## RacerX (Jun 8, 2001)

Before Eazel went bully-up, I was talk to one of the developers and asking her why they were using the Windows Explorer format for Nautilus (besides the fact that it was a replacement for Midnight Commander). She said "We're not specifically looking to emulate the NeXTStep style of file browser, because we're not sure that provides the best ease of use." I still disagree with her on that.


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## strobe (Jun 8, 2001)

I don't think anybody outside of slashdot suggested Eazel had a clue about HI, and that's mainly due to nobody at slashdot having a clue. Thier strategy, much like KDE, is to make a windows clone.

Although I still don't know what Apple's strategy is.


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## jdog (Jun 8, 2001)

> _Originally posted by strobe _
> * that's mainly due to nobody at slashdot having a clue. *



 LOL 

I read slashdot for the news, but the comments by most readers and moderators displays just how intelligent they are.  (They think they are venerable geniuses)

-jdog


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## WhateverJoe (Jun 8, 2001)

What's the desktop????




I'm not dependent on using the Desktop as my navigation medium, guess that's why I never cluttered it with shortcuts and what not, and with OS X, I simply have layer apon layer of app windows, I just click on the app from the dock to bring all of the app windows I want foward... very quick clean and simple in my eyes......

I just can not, understand the attachment with the "Desktop" that the guy starting this thread grips about and alot of other folks before him.

Column view rocks, The only ligit grip I believe with substance about the file browser in OSX is that you need two Finder windows open to move or copy files from one place to another that is not with-in the same root (Displayed) folder... where as "Windows Explorer" it's pretty easy to click and drag a file from with-in a deep path to a folder far far away and even on a different drive  using the same window. Other than that, if it's even all that important, is the only thing very different.

Well, I love X, I shouldn't get upset reading such bad opinion but it's like hearing cake sucks......


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## apb3 (Jun 8, 2001)

Yeah. having to use two finder windows is a drawback... But I love column view so much that I really don't mind. Besides, I keep my GUI as clean as possible so having the 2 windows open is no big deal. 


Haven't heard a comment from JVERD (the original poster)... Maybe we've swayed his opinion....


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## endian (Jun 8, 2001)

> Not having anything on the desktop was one of the first things that scared many people about Mac OS X when they saw the early screen shoots. As for column, I've been using Greg's browser for a long time in Classic, I've always love navigating my system that way.



Me to, I've been using that for years. Between Greg's Browser and The Tilery I had a pretty good simulated OSX environment on 8 & 9.

Or you can make a tabbed folder launcher, put all your aliases in one horizontal row, set the view options to view as large buttons and snap to grid, and position the icons so they overlap. It gives a neat sort of pseudo-magnification effect when you drag a file over it. I was gonna submit that to some magazines tips column, but oh well, too late now


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## Matrix Agent (Jun 8, 2001)

You guys ever drag an icon over a folder in 9? The folder opens up! and you can do it over and over until you get to where you want to be?
How did this get cut from X?
I know it would work well for the colummn view. I also share your opinion about moving files about, its especially stressful to have two windows open because you have to resize, and you know how long that can take


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## jverd (Jun 13, 2001)

I, too, don't clutter my desktop. My point was that I don't want to click the app in the dock and then have to sort through that app's windows. I want to be be able to click in the dock to get directly to the window I want. This only works if I've previously genied the window away. The reason I prefer winblows task bar over the dock is that it doesn't matter if the window has been minmized/inconized/genied/whatever, it's there in the taskbar, and I can get to the window I want with one click. Not all apps behave this way, and I'm not sure why, but the overwhelming majority of apps that I use do behave this way.

Bottom line: I've owned Macs and only Macs for over ten years now. I've never considered buying a winblows box. I don't have the time or money to switch now,  so I'll have to live with it, and maybe OSX will improve. But I can work a lot more effectively in winblows than in any Mac OS. Ironically, we've come full circle--the only time I'd rather use OS X than NT is for command line stuff. Zsh and bash kick the crap out of DOS, and cygwin is okay, but kind of a hack.


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## RacerX (Jun 13, 2001)

The taskbar feature that you talk about is for apps that get re-opened when you create a new window, but if you are using photoshop in windows, there is only one button on the taskbar no matter how many images you are working with. Mind you, I like Windows (NT 4, 2000 pro is okay, I can do without most the rest), I just don't care for the "innovative" sprite of the company that makes it. Every OS is different (except when Microsoft likes an idea enough to re-innovate it), and the trick to any new OS is to make it your own. a computer is like a home or office, it works better the more "lived-in" it is. My setups for MacOS 9.1 and Mac OS X are different from most people's because I've "moved the furniture around". The same thing with Windows NT, Solaris, Irix, and Linux, I make them livable for me. In making all the changes helps me learn more about the OS.


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## Mr_Frost (Jun 13, 2001)

I also use Column view all the time and my desktop is blanc most of the time.
I only use it to receive my downloads on...then I can easilly divide them into the right folders.
(is there a way of keeping the column view as default so it only uses that whenever you open a new finder window?)
As for the poster of this thread....uuhhmm....bye....


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## AdmiralAK (Jun 13, 2001)

WOW!
Nice smily animated gifs!
where did u get em ????


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## Mr_Frost (Jun 13, 2001)

> _Originally posted by AdmiralAK _
> *WOW!
> Nice smily animated gifs!
> where did u get em ???? *



Yea..they rock !
They are all UT emoticons...You can get them here

Cya


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## macboy73 (Jun 13, 2001)

After all your bitching about X, and your insistence on switching to WinBlows, I can't wait to place bets on the amount of time before you can't stand it.

For the record, you think Mac OS X has no support? I can't wait until jackasses like yourself get hit by Windoze XP. It's going to be the hellfall of the world.





> _Originally posted by jverd _
> *I've had it. After all the hype and propaganda, OSuX is just another lame Apple attempt to try and claim there's actual meat behind its artsy fartsy graphics.
> 
> * Java is slow, slow, slow. Not just Swing either. On a dual 450 G5, 512 MB RAM, a non-gui test suite took 4 times as long as what it did on a 300 MHz Pentium, which was busy doing other stuff at the time, while the Mac was not.
> ...


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## hotani (Jun 15, 2001)

I agree with the thread starter. I have used OS X extensively on a G3 powerbook 266, and now on a new iBook 500. I have also used Windows 2000 on a PIII/550, and here are my somewhat objective reasons why Windows 2000 is better (as much as I hate to admit it...):

1- OSX is painfully slow. Win2k is responsive and quick. The task manager pops up immediately when an application freezes allowing me to kill it. OS X acts like it is constantly being dragged through a bog, and when I try to summon the force quit box, it usually never shows up and when it does it is about a minute after I hit the 3-key salute.

2- There is no way to kill the window manager or 'Finder' if it is frozen. There needs to be a key combo for this - it would solve about 90% of my problems. When I have been networked to my OS X machine, and the window manager froze, I opened a telnet session and killed the process which restarted the window manager - I want to be able to do this without a network connection and extra machine!! In the 2 months I used Win2000, the window manager never froze so I have no way to compare this.

3- The numerous bugs and little glitches characteristic of OSX's childhood: 
> internet connect hangs for about 5 minutes sometimes after I log out and back in again - during which time the entire Window environment is unresponsive. It always clears up, but it really is faster to reboot and start over. This is unacceptable.
> Data CD writing and DVD viewing - on its way, I know but this stuff should have been out a long time ago!!

4- OS X is supposed to be good because it supports a lot of hardware. My USB smartmedia card reader is still not recognized, and my scanner only works through the classic environment. Both of these worked fine in Win2000 after installing the necessary drivers

I am really not a windows fan - very much to the contrary. But OS X, despite its beauty and unix core, has been outdone by the M$ empire. 

I am not leaving though. I have Apache/PHP and MySQL installed on my laptop and use it to test webpages served on a unix host, and I love being able to open a terminal window and use my zsh and perl! do that with your Windows box!! However, the finder for the most part needs a serious workover.


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## RacerX (Jun 16, 2001)

I'll be happy to get others their options, but when comparisons are brought up, that is something else. 

"4- OS X is supposed to be good because it supports a lot of hardware. My USB smartmedia card reader is still not recognized, and my scanner only works through the classic environment. Both of these worked fine in Win2000 after installing the necessary drivers"

What is Windows 2000? It is the third major version of the Windows NT line (which was made up of NT 3.1/3.51, 4.0 sp 1-7, and now 2000, aka NT 5) which was released more than 6 years ago. If you look at the level of hardware support that the NT series has had over the years, you would see that third party venders (who are responsible for writing their own driver) have only been writing drives in great number for the NT series with in the last 3 years (at three months, I would say that Mac OS X is doing great by comparison). Almost no one used NT 3.1, an few more tried NT 3.51 because of the very limited range of equipment that they would work with. NT 4.0 was a major improvement, but took years before it became a usable OS (infact more apps wouldn't run on NT 4.0 without at least service pack 3 installed). I would go a step further and say that no OS has ever been given this level of support (both hardware and software) at it's introduction. Understanding the history of other operating systems make it easy to deal with the short comings (though I have yet to ever reinstall or have any of the major problem that seem to have plagued others), and sit in complete amazement at the speed in which all this is happening (this is truly unparalleled in the history of computing).


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## Mr_Frost (Jun 16, 2001)

> I agree with the thread starter. I have used OS X extensively on a G3 powerbook 266, and now on a new iBook 500. I have also used Windows 2000 on a PIII/550, and here are my somewhat objective reasons why Windows 2000 is better (as much as I hate to admit it...):


Do NOT compare a G3 with a PIII please !!!



> 2- There is no way to kill the window manager or 'Finder' if it is frozen. There needs to be a key combo for this - it would solve about 90% of my problems. When I have been networked to my OS X machine, and the window manager froze, I opened a telnet session and killed the process which restarted the window manager - I want to be able to do this without a network connection and extra machine!! In the 2 months I used Win2000, the window manager never froze so I have no way to compare this.



There is a way to kill the Finder , there is Force quit...(maybe now you are saying , force quit isn't available when the finder is stuck...well it is...if there is an app open then just move to the app and choose force quit from the apple menu there) , 2 : From the terminal you can kill every process running on the comp.





> internet connect hangs for about 5 minutes sometimes after I log out and back in again - during which time the entire Window environment is unresponsive. It always clears up, but it really is faster to reboot and start over. This is unacceptable.



Although I don't seem to have hat problem I will grant you that one , it seems that a lot off  of people have that problem and it is just a plain OSX bug.....we'll see



> OS X is supposed to be good because it supports a lot of hardware. My USB smartmedia card reader is still not recognized, and my scanner only works through the classic environment. Both of these worked fine in Win2000 after installing the necessary drivers



see other response for an anwser to that one 



> I am not leaving though. I have Apache/PHP and MySQL installed on my laptop and use it to test webpages served on a unix host, and I love being able to open a terminal window and use my zsh and perl! do that with your Windows box!! However, the finder for the most part needs a serious workover.



I fully agree...Finder needs a total workover...first of all it should be Cocoa...not f**k*ng Carbon !! But there are allready alternatives and that is the good part...there are options !!

Cya'l ltr


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## hotani (Jun 18, 2001)

*Mr_Frost*: the finder is completely frozen - maybe this has not happened to you yet. I cannot click out of the frozen app, command+option+esc does nothing (thus no force quit), the *only* way out is to telnet in and kill the process or reboot. I usually reboot because most of the time, my machine is not networked.

I think the solution to this is a key combo that forces the window manager to restart without affecting the other Darwin processes. Or, a not so user friendly solution: force the console/terminal to the front so I can enter the shell and work from there. Neither of these options are present (that I know of), so I am stuck rebooting - something I never thought I would have to do in OSX because of a freeze.

And why can I not compare PIII to the G3? Steve Jobs does it all the time!!


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## macboy73 (Jun 18, 2001)

> _Originally posted by hotani _
> 
> And why can I not compare PIII to the G3? Steve Jobs does it all the time!! [/B]



Steve jobs also compares them and the G3 is faster. Nyah.


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## jverd (Jun 19, 2001)

> _Originally posted by macboy73 _
> *After all your bitching about X, and your insistence on switching to WinBlows, I can't wait to place bets on the amount of time before you can't stand it.
> 
> *



I've been using 95, 98, and NT for a few years now. I did so reluctantly becuase I had to for work. Meanwhile, I tried to find ways to do the same work (Java development, mostly) on Mac. I wanted to stay with Mac, and I though OSuX would finally provide the tools I needed to use Mac for both work and personal use--like for instance *FINALLY* supporting Java2.

OSuX was an improvement, but not a big enough one. Meanwhile, M$ has been getting more usable all along. There are still a lot of things I don't like, but the paths have finally croseed, and I'm now at the point where, given a choice, I'll take M$ over Mac. Unfortunately, because of the time and money I've put into it, I'm stuck with my Mac for a while. I'll make the best of it, and at least it has a better shell/CLI than DOS.

I hope that Apple fixes the many, many problems I've found before I get to the point of chucking the Mac and going whole hog M$, but given how many problems there are, and given Apple's past history of leaving bugs and annoying "features" around for way to long, I don't hold out much hope.


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## jverd (Jun 19, 2001)

> _Originally posted by macboy73 _
> *
> 
> Steve jobs also compares them and the G3 is faster. Nyah. *



Boiling G3/PIII comparisons down to "this one is faster" doesn't say a whole lot, since "faster" has to be qualified by which tests, and how much faster. You also have to consider the OS ans apps running on the chip. Even if G3 blew PIII out of the water in every pure hardware test imaginable, if you plop a slow-dog Mac OS on the G3 and a snappy M$ OS on the PIII, you'll get better overall response time on the PIII/M$ combination.

I'm sure there are OS/app tests that say that Mac is faster than an "equivalent" M$, and test that say the exact opposite. However, the bottom line is I can spend a lot less money to get a M$ box that responds faster to my actions. Now, maybe if you put M$ against "equivalent" Mac in some pure number crunching task, the G3 may outstrip the PIII. I don't care, and I doubt most people making the Mac/M$ decision will care. Why? Because when you're actively using your computer, the most important measurement of performance is how well the computer's response keeps up with your line of thought and your actions. I want stuff to appear, move, redraw, etc. as fast as I can mouse. When I click the "Calculate" button and the computer goes away for a while to do some major crunching, I don't care if it's 2 or 5 or 20 minutes. Once it's not responding immediately, I'll go find something else to do until it's done, and those cases are much rarer than window shuffling.


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## Mr_Frost (Jun 19, 2001)

> _Originally posted by hotani _
> *Mr_Frost: the finder is completely frozen - maybe this has not happened to you yet. I cannot click out of the frozen app, command+option+esc does nothing (thus no force quit), the only way out is to telnet in and kill the process or reboot. I usually reboot because most of the time, my machine is not networked.
> 
> I think the solution to this is a key combo that forces the window manager to restart without affecting the other Darwin processes. Or, a not so user friendly solution: force the console/terminal to the front so I can enter the shell and work from there. Neither of these options are present (that I know of), so I am stuck rebooting - something I never thought I would have to do in OSX because of a freeze.
> ...



oh..ok...I see.
I had that same thing happen twice allready.
It was when trying to view a Flash 5 site with Microshit Internet Explorer. 
Twice t the exact same moment in the flash movie.
Just a IE bug...
Well...I hope you get things sorted out...cya


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## hotani (Jun 19, 2001)

YES!! The exact same thing happened to me - I was loading a page that had flash content (home.com) in IE, and it just froze up everything... good to know it was not just my machine or something.


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## ezra (Jun 19, 2001)

> _Originally posted by AdmiralAK _
> *In 9 I still have a lot of stuff on my desktop, thats the way I like it, in OS X that changes lol.  Very little on my desktop
> 
> I use list view  *



From what I've read, List view is the slowest view, Colums is written best so it is quickest followed by Icon view. I was advised not to use it until it was updated.

As for the original post, it seems this guy was trying to use Os X like his old MacOS 9. The power in Os X comes from it's Unix nature, so if you try using OsX like a Mac you are not going to see much improvement, most likely you'll feel like you just took a huge step backwards. If you use OsX like Unix or Linux, you are going to see a lot of improvements. There are still the drawbacks of OsX being in it's first rev, but that will change with time. Also a LOT of users suffer from bad installs, and hardware conflicts that cause a machine to run very slow, even new machine shipped with OsX pre installed have problems. Since this is really Unix you have to experiement with different types of installs to see which runs best on your machine. I instaleed Linux at least 50 times to see what worked best, and it was worth it, because it ended up being a lot faster that if I just did a basic install, probably 50% faster. With OsX I think I did about half that many installs, but my machine runs faster than most machines I've tested, and I don't even have native drivers for my video, or supported hardware. OsX is nowhere near the experience of it's predicessors, so you really have to start "thinking differently" as they say at Apple. Think Unix, think power, think of better ways to get things done.


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## AdmiralAK (Jun 19, 2001)

I do not use OS X that much due to the lack of apps that exist for it (well the lack of apps that I want), but whenever I am in it I use the view that looks like craig's browser, I always have a terminal window open and I as always, iTunes (cant live w/o music! )



Admiral


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## Mr_Frost (Jun 20, 2001)

> _Originally posted by hotani _
> *YES!! The exact same thing happened to me - I was loading a page that had flash content (home.com) in IE, and it just froze up everything... good to know it was not just my machine or something. *



Yea...its not just you 
What I suggest is that you use IE classic from now on to view Flash.
It even seems more stable the carbon version...hehe
Really , it's very good for viewing those Flash sites.
The only down side is that you still have to start up Classic first 

Cya

And pray that bug is fixed soon , no app should be able to bring OSX down...EVER!!


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## whitesaint (Jun 20, 2001)

this is to the thread starter - you are on crack - I've never seen an OS as good as this one and I've used alot of em.  Please don't be doin this to us.  G5???? lol


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## jverd (Jun 20, 2001)

> _Originally posted by whitesaint _
> *this is to the thread starter - you are on crack*



Well, yeah, but that doesn't change the fact that what's broken is broken.



> *
> - I've never seen an OS as good as this one and I've used alot of em.  Please don't be doin this to us.  G5???? lol *



G5 was a typo. Should have been G4. doNt yu ever mAKe typoOs whin yoo ar 0Nn cr@ck?


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