# If you want 10.1 spoiled for you, read this!



## whitesaint (Aug 2, 2001)

Okay i spent about 3 days getting 10.1 and i really gotta thank God cuz i take it as a miracle.  Well anyways 10.1 Rocks!!  Applications really do launch 2-3 times faster!!  Ive played around with OS X on a G4 at the store before, and now my G3 goes faster than that G4!!  When you guys get 10.1 i really believe that you guys are gonna get ur socks knocked off.  There is a new Version of IE and also iTunes has been upgraded to 1.1.2.  Today it took me only 2 bounces to relaunch the Finder!  However i see why its not released to the public yet.  Java Apps go slow as hell (LimeWire) and i already had a kernel panic when i first installed it.  But ever since then it has been goin sooooooo smooth.  Windows resize much much much much faster.  Oh yeah, and my dock -  on my G3 my dock took all my CPU usage and took forever just for magnification, now theres no slowing-down at all.  It feels like ive upgraded to a dual G4.  Oh and my scroll button on my mouse works in the Finder now!    Apple I love you


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## Lolo (Aug 2, 2001)

Is it possible, for a non-developper like me, to find this version somewhere...?
Did you try the DVD player too...?

Thanks for your post anyway because all the posts from people trying different builds and finding them worst than 10.0.4 were depressing me...!


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## whitesaint (Aug 2, 2001)

of course!  most of the builds that people were complaining about were earlier builds.  Im using the MacWorld Preview and its excellent.  Ive been up all night minimizing windows and watching in awe from how fast it goes. 
<br>
Anyways, to answer your question.  10.1 is available and very easy to get, but you need a CD burner.  It took a while for me to get a burned CD bootable, but eventually it worked.  10.1 is all over Carracho!  About a week ago no one had it, but now it seems that everyone does.   i havn't tried DVD playback yet because i dont have a DVD player yet.  Hope that helps though.


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## whitesaint (Aug 2, 2001)

Oh yeah, and one more note, the only thing im disappointed in 10.1 so far (and its really not a big deal because it will be fixed anyway) is that I can't use the developer tools.  They install ok, but when i try to use interface builder, its all out of wack.  Project Builder is good though.   But the speed improvements are so marvelous, that i dont even care if i have to use another computer to develop.  Once again -Apple I love you


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## martijnvandijk (Aug 2, 2001)

What is the 10.1 version that you are using? 5F24?


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## whitesaint (Aug 2, 2001)

5F24 Yes


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## whitesaint (Aug 2, 2001)

oh yea sorry to keep posting like this, but another cool feature is that the scroll button on my mouse works in menu's.  Pretty cool huh....?


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## Lolo (Aug 3, 2001)

Can you tell us how to find this build 5F24 to download...?
I tried but didn't find it yesterday night.
Is it on some web sites or more via newsgroups...?

Thanks


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## martijnvandijk (Aug 3, 2001)

try carracho.


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## rharder (Aug 3, 2001)

What's carracho?

-Rob


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## stizz (Aug 3, 2001)

> _Originally posted by rharder _
> *What's carracho?
> 
> -Rob *



it is a client server system simialr to Hotline. Goto versiontracker.com and do a search for carracho


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## AdmiralAK (Aug 3, 2001)

I prefer caraccho to hotline 
(I think it's mac only too!!!   )


to find stuff try www.tracker-tracker.com


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## whitesaint (Aug 3, 2001)

Yep Carracho.  Carracho is great - just about every server on there has 10.1 available (for free too)  Also i would like to add that i am switching back to 10.04 for the simple reason of not being able to develop in my own room.    Oh yeah and if any of you guys cant find a good bandwidth connection, try "Roswell" on Carracho, i usually get about 100K/per second on there.  The tracker is "HL Sux" Most of the other servers i found suck on there, always asking to upload Maya, or switch your Icon or you name.  Ack it gets pretty annoying.

-whitesaint


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## stizz (Aug 5, 2001)

I am happy to report that I am up and running with 5f24 and ,..well, wow.

Everything seems so zippy. I got online with my dsl connection with minimal hassle. I played with speakable items and was amazed; very smooth. I did manage to crash quictime however. I am noticing lots of changes and new features.

Thanks Apple



Carracho kicks much ass.


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## Zaven (Aug 5, 2001)

OK


This is starting to make me sick.  I have wasted too much time reading what WhiteSaint has to say concerning OS X.  He is naïve, unknowledgable, and completely trivializes the use of OS X.  Bottom line, all he talks about is Hotline and Carracho sites.  These sites are warez sites.  In my opinion these sites degrade the integrety and take away from the obligation that Mac Users have towards eachother and Apple.  Furthermore, such endusers as WhiteSaint are sensationalistic in their "reviews" of preproduction software and are not reflecting the entire story.

--Zaven


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## stizz (Aug 5, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Zaven _
> *OK
> 
> 
> ...



Hey now. That's not right. On various levels even.

First off, Carracho and Hotline are worthy technologies in their own right. Protocols. They are a wonderful client/server applications and have many uses. Warez tend to be one of those uses, yes, but do not judge on that alone.

I would also think WhiteSaint was dead on with his review. How is it trivial to
remark about the speed increases? I don't think that it is trivial that the menus pop down with a quickness never before seen on previous builds. Or that the dock can now be placed on the side of the screen.  

This integrety and obligation you speak of, don't you think I'll be submitting bug reports?


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## AdmiralAK (Aug 5, 2001)

I can think of a million  different uses for hotline + carracho.... now if only I had an extra machine to spare to I could put it on my school's T1 network


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## PoweMACuser (Aug 5, 2001)

I am pleased that I heard the speed is increased. But this is Apple should do because the upgrade is not free. They are asking us to pay twice within 6 months. Apple seems to fully support both IE and JAVA. JAVA is always running very slow, even under IA-64, the next generation of Intel CPU. I don't think currently they can speed up JAVA.

But other reports show that 10.1 also gets a lot of problems. They can't finish their job when the promised distribution time. They will follow the way like in 10 and 10.1. Next half a year, we will have to pay for 10.2 ugrade. But I think 10.1.x should be free.


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## stizz (Aug 5, 2001)

One thing I should mention about 5f24.

It did not recognize that 9.1 was installed on the other partition. Is that because it needs 9.2?


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## PoweMACuser (Aug 5, 2001)

I don't think so. Newer version should support up to OS 8.5. Otherwise, it is not a better upgrade version since its support is worse.


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## kilowatt (Aug 5, 2001)

What Darwin kernel is 10.1 going to be running? 
10.0.4 has 1.3.7.

To get your kernel's version, type 'uname -r' at a console. I wonder if Apple made special kernels just for those macworld previews laying arround.

As for Carracho, I must admit, I felt like I was lowering my self down to the level of my 3d studio max-stealing pc 'friends' when I downloaded Adobe Premier 6 last night (for os 9). 

Of course, carracho does have other uses. Like distributing unknown utilities for mac os, and unknown band's music (with their permission). 

So, I know stealing software is illegal and wrong. So if I do it, that makes me an immoral person. (Immoral people are people that believe one thing to be moral and then do another.) Man, I'm quite the hypocrite today. 

Oh well, time to delete premier (I don't understand how to use it anyway)

Cheers, and please excuse me for once again writing a small book on a message board...


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## Matrix Agent (Aug 5, 2001)

I've been wrestling with a question in my mind over the past two days:

If I paid for OS X, full price, and am going to get the 10.1 update anyway, does it really matter if I download a build off carracho?

I know that I'm not supposed to have possesion of one, but what does it hurt? If I signed up for the seeding program, I would get them same thing, free of charge, therefore, I'm not stealing money from Apple. I'm not using the build as a platform for mac-bashing, just because the update is unfinished and buggy. So, what am I doing wrong? I can't help but feel guilty. This isn't a retorical question. What do you guys feel that the pros and cons of leaked builds are? 

I keep thinking to myself, well. it must be bad that everyone knows about these builds, but really, what bad has come of this public knowlege and testing?


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## Matrix Agent (Aug 5, 2001)

powermacuser,

Word is that 9.2 includes many optimizations for OS X, and some sites have reported boot times of 20 seconds. I would like to think that a step forward, not a step back.


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## stizz (Aug 5, 2001)

> _Originally posted by kilowatt _
> *What Darwin kernel is 10.1 going to be running?
> 10.0.4 has 1.3.7.
> 
> *



I typed what you said and it replied 1.4


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## rhale1 (Aug 6, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Matrix Agent:_
> If I signed up for the seeding program, I would get them same thing, free of charge, therefore, I'm not stealing money from Apple.



Not realy. Apple will *ONLY* seed OS builds to Premier developers (and I think one other), and that membership is not free.


P.S: Could anyone open their 10.1 AirPort Assistant and tell me the options? Thanks.


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## whitesaint (Aug 6, 2001)

Sorry to change the subject guys but i want to respond to Zaven.  I don't make anybody read my posts, and when you do it's your own choice.  Please don't call me unknowledgeable, naive, or anything you must say for somthing you did to yourself.  I was excited when i finally recieved 10.1 after all that hard work.  It really did go faster, it suprised me.
<br>
<br>
When i did talk about Carracho or Hotline, it was to answer people's questions.  How was I not reflecting the entire story?  I said what i thought was good and new, and i said what i thought was bad.  Anybody can call anyone a dirty ass politician like yourself, but lets try and keep it on a Mac-OS-X-level.  Not our lower level PC counterparts.  We are better then them.  This is a Mac OS X forum for everybody and especially not to put other people, ideas, or opinions down.

-whitesaint


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## Matrix Agent (Aug 6, 2001)

Somebody make the admin post that as our mission statement


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## dissident (Aug 7, 2001)

Is 10.1 as fast as 9.1 or does it even come close? Maybee it felt so fast because it was so damn slow before. I hope it will be a lot faster because 10.0.4 on my Power Book 500MHz G3 (firewire) is really really slow compared to 9.1.


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## zerorex (Aug 7, 2001)

First of all, Zaven, you need to chill out.  It is people like whitesaint that make apple great.  My guess is the guys who are serfing carracho for leaked builds are the same ones who fly from Seattle to go to the opening of apples stores in Glendale and Plano.  

I HAVE downloaded ALL 3 of the leaked builds of 10.1.  And in no way do I concider this piracy.  Why you ask? Ill tell you.  Because I PAID for os x.  Apple has already said that the 10.1 update will NOT be a paid update.  So there for, I am justified in downloading it.  Now I have not had the same amount fo success with it that whitesaint seems to, and I am not useing it on a production system.   

Here is my point.  Downloading the unreleased leaked builds does not in any way degrade the mac experiance.  As a matter of fact it shows just how enthusiastic mac users are about their platform.  


So in closing... Zaven, get over your self.


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## endian (Aug 8, 2001)

> I keep thinking to myself, well. it must be bad that everyone knows about these builds, but really, what bad has come of this public knowlege and testing?



from http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1006-200-6804697.html :
information is generally no longer considered a trade secret once it is made public, even if the disclosure was not authorized

So when MS rips off Apple (again) with no fear of legal action, we'll know who to thank.


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## avalenz (Aug 8, 2001)

> _Originally posted by zerorex _
> *First of all, Zaven, you need to chill out.  It is people like whitesaint that make apple great.  My guess is the guys who are serfing carracho for leaked builds are the same ones who fly from Seattle to go to the opening of apples stores in Glendale and Plano.
> 
> I HAVE downloaded ALL 3 of the leaked builds of 10.1.  And in no way do I concider this piracy.  Why you ask? Ill tell you.  Because I PAID for os x.  Apple has already said that the 10.1 update will NOT be a paid update.  So there for, I am justified in downloading it.  Now I have not had the same amount fo success with it that whitesaint seems to, and I am not useing it on a production system.
> ...



1 - Downloading an unreleased leaked build DOES degrade the Mac experience.  Just search these message boards and you'll find NUMEROUS posts of people complaining about these same unreleased leaked builds and how they don't work as they'd like, or that they don't include a certain feature that we expect the final version to, etc.  Frankly, I don't want to read threads about unreleased products.  Let's wait until the final version AND THEN start the bitching and moaning that's sure to ensue (one can't possibly please all of the people all of the time--and Apple is no exception).

2 - I clearly remember whitesaint being the person who purchased OS X, was unsatisfied, returned it for a full refund, and kept it installed on his machine while he posted numerous messages to this board complaining, inquiring about how to obtain classic, etc.  So unless he's since purchased OS X, your arguments do not apply to his case.

-Ali


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## whitesaint (Aug 8, 2001)

yea that was me and i have bought OS X and have had it for a while now.


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## stizz (Aug 8, 2001)

> _Originally posted by avalenz _
> *
> 
> 1 - Downloading an unreleased leaked build DOES degrade the Mac experience.  Just search these message boards and you'll find NUMEROUS posts of people complaining about these same unreleased leaked builds and how they don't work as they'd like, or that they don't include a certain feature that we expect the final version to, etc.  Frankly, I don't want to read threads about unreleased products.  Let's wait until the final version AND THEN start the bitching and moaning that's sure to ensue (one can't possibly please all of the people all of the time--and Apple is no exception).
> ...




Just search these message boards and you'll find NUMEROUS posts of people complaining about FINAL releases and how they don't work as well as they'd like, or that they don'y include a feature that they expected the final version to ...etc
So, what exactly was your point there? All I got out of that was that you are a closed minded d1psh1t. If you don't want to read threads about leaked builds then DON"T FUCKING READ THEM! People come to this board to discuss various topics in and around pertaining to OS X. Some of us find information on leaked builds useful and informative, myself being one of them.

What may sound like bitching and whining to you, sounds like a creative mac user announcing a found problem/instance/bug what have you, and asking other creative mac users (et al) for opinions and possible work arounds. If YOU have a problem with MY ethics, this forum does NOT become your personal soapbox to JUDGE ME.

And for the record,..The last OS I bought was 7.5. And this is the 5th build of X iv'e toyed with.


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## endian (Aug 8, 2001)

> Just search these message boards and you'll find NUMEROUS posts of people complaining about FINAL releases



irrelevant. people have the right to posess and discuss final releases.



> Some of us find information on leaked builds useful and informative, myself being one of them.



So do Apple's competitors.



> What may sound like bitching and whining to you, sounds like a creative mac user announcing a found problem/instance/bug what have you, and asking other creative mac users (et al) for opinions and possible work arounds.



And how many actually get one?



> If YOU have a problem with MY ethics, this forum does NOT become your personal soapbox to JUDGE ME.
> 
> And for the record,..The last OS I bought was 7.5. And this is the 5th build of X iv'e toyed with.



No judgement necessary - you're a thief; you just said so yourself.


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## Matrix Agent (Aug 8, 2001)

You're correct in saying that worker bee damaged apple by leaking information. The information he leaked was being specifically kept secret in order to gain an edge on the rest of the industry. 

The leaked builds that are being used right now are no secret though. Apple has demonstrated them, has given out press releases, and even has a web page on 10.1. The same can be said for 10.0 with the 4K87 builds and the like. People already know what the features are, and so does the press and apple's competitors. It would be foolish to think that microsoft and other competitors are learning much from these leaked builds. Their own insiders could problably tell them more. I'm still searching for a negative effect. But "worker bee" is a valid point.

To all the complainers: People have a right to complain about what they BUY.


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## stizz (Aug 8, 2001)

> _Originally posted by endian _
> *
> 
> irrelevant. people have the right to posess and discuss final releases.
> ...



Who made you loss prevention officer?


> _Originally posted by endian _
> 
> So do Apple's competitors.
> [/B]



Get real. said competitors have better ways to steal technology from apple then downloading a leaked build off hotline. I'm sure microsoft right now has at least a 5g build in its possesion for development purposes.





> _Originally posted by endian _
> And how many actually get one?
> [/B]


what am I, a mind reader? Who knows? I certiantly have helped other whiners when they have asked for help. And I have also been helped by other user s when I post a question. Are you too good to help people?


> _Originally posted by endian _
> 
> No judgement necessary - you're a thief; you just said so yourself.
> [/B]



I prefer beta tester thank you. But you can call me pirate if you like. Thief is a bit harsh. Can I call you a fascist? Didn't think so.


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## endian (Aug 8, 2001)

The issue isn't having the information. The issue is being able to use it without being subject to an ironclad Apple suit saying 'such and such illegally misappropriated confidential Apple information blah blah blah'



> Are you too good to help people?


I help people who aren't beyond help. People who bitch that an OS 2 months away from release doesn't work perfectly are clearly beyond help.



> I prefer beta tester thank you.



You aren't a beta tester, no more than someone squatting in someone else's house while they're away is a housesitter.


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## tenhead (Aug 8, 2001)

Hey - it's really simple. What you guys are doing by downloading unreleased versions is ILLEGAL. Simple. People can lose their jobs over it. People can be fined and put in jail for it.

You have *no right* to download the software and to discuss it in public forums. If Apple feels it is not in their company's best interest to allow public downloads, then *they have that right*. Do you think you know better than them as to how to run a business? If so, lets see your business plan. You can disagree all you want, but it's not your company, and not your Intellectual Property to be making those kinds of decisions.

Yeah, people do illegal things all the time. It is hard to stop. But you can't blame Apple for doing what they believe is right by trying to stop it and publicly admonishing it. If you want to do something illegal and talk about it in public, the fine. But fess up to the fact that what you are doing is *illegal*. Otherwise post your real names and addresses and be willing to live with the consequences. Otherwise, just don't try to hide behind some silly childish denial and self-rightous bullshit. You are thieves, plain and simple, and you hurt Apple just by making them have to spend time and energy to pursue the likes of you.


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## kilowatt (Aug 8, 2001)

> _Originally posted by tenhead _
> *Hey - it's really simple. What you guys are doing by downloading unreleased versions is ILLEGAL. Simple. People can lose their jobs over it. People can be fined and put in jail for it.
> 
> You have *no right* to download the software and to discuss it in public forums. If Apple feels it is not in their company's best interest to allow public downloads, then *they have that right*. Do you think you know better than them as to how to run a business? If so, lets see your business plan. You can disagree all you want, but it's not your company, and not your Intellectual Property to be making those kinds of decisions.
> ...



AMEN!!

Lets not rationalize this.
If you know something is illegal, and you do it anyway, you are a hypocrite and an immoral person. And don't argue that downloading unauthorized builds isn't illegal. If you purchased 10.0, and you buy 10.1, thats cool. And downloading the build may be justified for YOU, but like tenhead said, it can be damaging to other people.

We all love apple, and unless you think what you are doing helps apple and is the correct, justified thing to do, stop.

Things are not half right. They are wrong or right. The laws of morality are black and white. Not apple-rainbow-ish.


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## Matrix Agent (Aug 8, 2001)

Summary:

1. Downloading builds is illegal

2. You cannot complain about somthing that haven't bought or shouldn't have

3. We dont need confrontation on the boards, make your point clearly and respectably

4. We'll all have 10.1 in september so why dont we cool of until then

anyone else want to add something?

I for one admit that I have learned something from this thread, and have consequently deleted my builds.


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## Zaven (Aug 9, 2001)

From BS being dished out by various users to the final, cold, hard facts of the legality of d/l'ing unreleased software, I was indeed justified in my criticism.

I've got no probs discussing the ups and downs of a particular software release, but that's the point...RELEASE.

If one user says, "yah, yah, its great, I love it, I've got no problems here" and another one says "man, it crashed like 5 times in a row and I had to fall back to 10.0.4" that's the problem.  While the first user's primary concern may have been, can I get on the internet, can I still use Carracho and Hotline in classic, can I play games?.....the second user, possibly a power user may be trying to get some things running that were predicted by Apple developers that would be running, but aren't doing what they're supposed to.

That's why I call these first type of reviews sensationalistic.  Opening apps, scrolling this, resizing that...yah, we all know that these features are a given in OS 10.1.  Its when we get down and dirty with the apps that we use for both productivity and amusement when we see things start to come together or fall apart.

How do you know what Apple was "using" at MacWorld NY, how do you know that a certain site is REALLY offering 5f24 when in fact it may be a hacked up version of another release.  You DON'T, and you WON'T until it is released.

And yes, people like me are going to sit around on our asses and wait for that 10.1 RELEASE, and then I'll talk to you about it.

--Heig Gregorian


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## stizz (Aug 9, 2001)

I could care less about any of you personally or what ever moral values you all adhere to. To each his own, whatever. I am not the only hypocrite who has posted in this thread. 
So it is Illegal? Ok

Who here never does anything illegal? Let that poster cast thy first stone. 

Did you ever drink underage? That was illegal. Did you ever drive faster than the posted limit? That was also illegal. Ever smoke a joint in college? Guess what,..that was illegal as well.  Ever fudged numbers on your taxes? Set off fireworks? Pay somebody under the table? Download a copyrighted mp3? How about  smoke a cuban cigar? Offer your antibiotics to a sick friend? Copy a VHS cassette? 
  I am not here to admonish anybody for their transgressions. I am here to talk about OS X. More specifically, I am here in this thread to discuss the illegal build that goes by the name puma 5f24. Everybody turn to page 49 in your Mac OS Builds Orientation handbook, take notes,..there will be a pop quiz.

Build 5f24 is working pretty damn well I must admit. I have found very few problems. For 1, the list of cdr drivers isn't all that big yet. That will obvioussly change in time, I have yet to burn anything. Another interesting thing I have noticed is OS X doesn't like to share it's sound manager with classic. In numerous instances (in all the previous builds as well including 10.0.4) A music program will not be able to use sound. My most recent experience with this bug (if thats what it is) is, Reason. (for those unfamiliar with reason, it is a studio application) I hope Apple or Propellerheads software are aware of this conflict. 
[disclaimer - The above paragraph was in no way a whine or a bitch, get over  yourself already]
In other news, 9.2 seems remarkably stable for classic use. I was using office2001 today with no problem (except the printers, but thats another story) It is certiantly obvious they have improved cross platform networking. I was able to access the company intranet today at work. A feat previously only possible with OS 9 and Dave. Even 10.0.4 wouldn't let me on the intranet. However i was not able to connect to any windoes shares yet. I shall install Dave on this build and report back tommorrow. I was not able to print on the network however,.but I believe that is due to my office having an obscure HP Laserjet model to which there wasnt a driver (of the numerous printer drivers in 10.1) available. Yada yada.
3 days into 10.1 and only 1 kernel panic, which coincidentaly happen while booting up after 9.2 installed,..it has been smooth sailing since. Oh, and one other thing. Do not install fetch on this build. Puma and fetch didnt seem to like each other.


Lastly. I discovered an easy way into root from terminal (if this was already common knowledge, then forgive me)
type sudo su
then password

badabing, badaboom

Until next time kiddies.

And to any preachers out there, don't waste your time. I am beyond saving.


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## tenhead (Aug 9, 2001)

> _Originally posted by stizz _
> _I could care less about any of you personally or what ever moral values you all adhere to. To each his own, whatever. I am not the only hypocrite who has posted in this thread. _



If you don't care what we think, then why post? You obviously think you have some great insight to share with the world. But your knowledge is ill gained, and you still won't acknowledge that what you do might be harmful to others. Oh, that's right, you just don't care. Scew all those people that you might be hurting.



> _
> So it is Illegal? Ok
> 
> Who here never does anything illegal? Let that poster cast thy first stone.
> ...



Those analogies don't have relevance in this case, because the issue is not mainly the illegality, but who is being harmed. We're talking about stealing someone else's property. That I don't do. I don't download copyrighted MP3s and I don't copy VHS cassettes. I know better. Yes, those cross my ethical boundaries. Especially since I make a living writing software, and I am a musician, so I would never steal anything from people that I can relate to - I wouldn't want anyone to steal my work. Would you?



> _ I am not here to admonish anybody for their transgressions. I am here to talk about OS X. More specifically, I am here in this thread to discuss the illegal build that goes by the name puma 5f24._



And somehow, that is OK to you. Well then, don't be surprised if ethical people choose to admonish you when you do something that many others believe may harm the company that they feel so strongly about. I want to see Apple do well. And when I see someone threaten that, I will speak up.



> _Until next time kiddies.
> 
> And to any preachers out there, don't waste your time. I am beyond saving. _



Who's calling who a kiddie? Maybe some day you'll grow up, form some ethics of your own, and take responsibility for your actions. Hopefully you won't hurt anyone else until that day comes. I know that I wouldn't hire you into my Engineering group until you could show a little more maturity and a lot more respect for others.


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## Fahrvergnuugen (Aug 9, 2001)

He's telling us how fast 10.1 is going to be. We're all excited about it. You're taking credit away from his posts because he got an unfinished developer seed of OSX on a warez site?! Big deal!

Who cares? I have a copy of every build of OSX since DP3. That doesn't mean that I don't buy the official copy from Apple when it comes out. I want to see this stuff before I buy it...it's too damn exciting.


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## uoba (Aug 9, 2001)

Some of you are of a high-moral nature and denounce the use of unauthorised software, some of you tend to disregard corporate legality.

I am of both views, when it suits me and my company. For, if I developed my company by the book for the last 3 years, I wouldn't be in business anymore.

Equally, we know that we have a moral obligation to pay for services rendered.

Just one quick question that has always bugged me:

Do software companies (Apple, Adobe, etc.) willingly put these "builds" out as so they can record users views and opinions, a sort of product usability research?


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## endian (Aug 9, 2001)

> He's telling us how fast 10.1 is going to be.



He's telling us how fast he experienced whatever build he found on hotline to be. The final release could be faster, it could be slower. It's meaningless to judge.



> In numerous instances (in all the previous builds as well including 10.0.4) A music program will not be able to use sound. My most recent experience with this bug (if thats what it is) is, Reason. (for those unfamiliar with reason, it is a studio application) I hope Apple or Propellerheads software are aware of this conflict.



Propellerheads software very well may not be aware of it. In case you're not aware, Apple has cut back drastically on OS seeding to all but the largest developers, due to all the leaks. These are exactly the people you're hurting most - the small/shareware developers who are typically the Mac's strongest supporters. If they (we) don't get seeds to test against until the last minute, or at all, it obviously delays the release of software that supports the new OS. People complain that OSX software has been so slow in coming - here's one reason. 

Case in point - the Dockling API has undergone substantial changes in 10.1 (as demonstrated at MWNY.) Any dockling you're using now will probably have to at least be recompiled to work at all under the new version. If developers don't get a chance to do that before release, it'll have to be done after release, and you all will have to wait.

Anyway, I've said all I'm going to say on the subject. Have fun.


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## Fahrvergnuugen (Aug 9, 2001)

> He's telling us how fast he experienced whatever build he found on hotline to be. The final release could be faster, it could be slower. It's meaningless to judge.



I can't believe you have time to sit here and nit pick every little thing that everyone says. We all want to know if 10.1 is as fast as it was during the key note. That's the point. How can this be meaningless to judge? Are you suggesting that Apple would change the code to make the final release of 10.1 _slower_ than 5f24?

You're not making sense. Any normal person who doesn't try to call people on technicalities all day long just to prove a point would understand the original point of this thread. You're nose is bent outta shape because you have morals about stealing software, so you spout fallacies of irrelevance. You're just wasting my time.


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## Matrix Agent (Aug 9, 2001)

Wow, if they come to this site to look for reactions, they're gonna think we're a bunch of idiots.


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## Fahrvergnuugen (Aug 9, 2001)

True dat


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## tenhead (Aug 9, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Fahrvergnuugen _
> *
> 
> Are you suggesting that Apple would change the code to make the final release of 10.1 slower than 5f24?
> ...



It's not a waste of your time, you just don't know it yet. You are the one that doesn't understand. Instead of attacking, maybe asking the poster 'why' they said what they said might extend the information exchange instead of shutting it down.

It is entirely possible that a build can get slower as it goes final. As final builds and shipping deadlines approach sometimes you need to do unexpected things to get the code to be stable. Some seemingly simple problem can turn out to expose a design problem that requires significant last minute hoop jumping to 'fix'. You might say this is the case with the current Finder, where they unwittingly slowed it down significantly from the 9.x Finder, because some of the early design decisions turned out to be wrong, but it was too late in the development cycle to make the necessary changes before final shipment.

I'm not saying this is going to be the case for 10.1, but no-one on this board has the information they need right now to really know what tradeoffs are being made by the development team. My fear would be that since everybody is so focused on Speed, that Stability may suffer. To me, stability is generally more important.


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## stizz (Aug 9, 2001)

> _Originally posted by endian _
> *
> 
> Propellerheads software very well may not be aware of it. In case you're not aware, Apple has cut back drastically on OS seeding to all but the largest developers, due to all the leaks. These are exactly the people you're hurting most - the small/shareware developers who are typically the Mac's strongest supporters. If they (we) don't get seeds to test against until the last minute, or at all, it obviously delays the release of software that supports the new OS. People complain that OSX software has been so slow in coming - here's one reason.
> ...



I'm sure Propellerheads (read Steinberg) was given a seed. If not I'm sure they were as resourceful as I was. Hell I'm in the seed program myself, and I never get Seeds, yet I'm aware of these bugs. So try again.

As for the Dockling API, you may be onto something there. The only dockling that I use, is the battery monitor. For some reason, it was not included with this build. I HAd to copy it over from my backup disks. It works fine. I am puzzled why it was not included. Surely it will be come Sept.

A liitle more on Fetch, It installs fine,..but when you try and use it, it crashes, then remains on your dock. Cant force quit it,. (doesn't show as running) cant drag it out of the dock either. It just stays there. I wonder if that has anything to do with the dockling API. Logging out then back in was the only way I could get rid of it.

Yada yada, I'm off to install Office X beta 5 on my system and will let yall know how it works out.,

Did I mention how FAST this build is?!?  WOw


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## senne (Aug 10, 2001)

aaaaaaaah SHUT UP!

All the file sharing-applications, like carracho, hotline, mactella...,---> www.zeropaid.com 

Keep on tripping! And be as much illegal you can!


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## foo (Aug 10, 2001)

I think we all work according to our own value sets. Personally I do my best to legally own everything I use, at personal cost. But I do find carracho an immensely valuable tool, to transfer files and discuss issues with friends and colleagues.

Sadly, people need to look at the hole they are digging for themselves - we already do not have enough developers for our beloved machines. Scott Kevil produced a mapping tool for Quake on mac a while ago, he probably would do so again if people paid for it instead of pirated it. Instead he has no interest in developing the tool because of cr@p moral policies of some of the mac "faithful", so we are stuck without an editor, begging others to port it.

If you consider yourself a mac supporter, then support it financially as well as verbally.

If the 20 $ for OS X 1 too much, then at least consider the longterm implications of piracy, and prepare yourself for a windows world, because you will be responsible for putting Apple out of business.


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## nixfiend (Aug 10, 2001)

Ut-oh we have an angry Armenian on our hands....


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## stizz (Aug 10, 2001)

> _Originally posted by foo _
> *I think we all work according to our own value sets. Personally I do my best to legally own everything I use, at personal cost. But I do find carracho an immensely valuable tool, to transfer files and discuss issues with friends and colleagues.
> 
> Sadly, people need to look at the hole they are digging for themselves - we already do not have enough developers for our beloved machines. Scott Kevil produced a mapping tool for Quake on mac a while ago, he probably would do so again if people paid for it instead of pirated it. Instead he has no interest in developing the tool because of cr@p moral policies of some of the mac "faithful", so we are stuck without an editor, begging others to port it.
> ...


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## tenhead (Aug 11, 2001)

> _Originally posted by stizz _
> *
> 
> Apple piracy has also been rampant for years. Not quite to the extremes that the PC world knows, but virulent still. Apple is not dead. And the day apple does go the way of the amiga, will be the day the  of the cult of personality that is Apple( That's Mr. Jobs to you) finally drowns us all with inanity and asthetic centering ( will he not be happy until even the keyboard is mere  keys in a straight line [ q, a, z, etc...]).
> ...



Yeah, crime is all over the place. They rob our mothers and rape our sisters. What you are suggesting in your ridiculous 'new world' is that we all just give up and let it all happen. A free for all where anyone does whatever they want because of some delusion of a 'cause', and because there's supposedly nothing that can be done about it.

That's pure crap. You are rationalizing to support your personal position, because you don't know to how to succeed in life without taking advantage of others. You have nothing to add to a fair discussion - all you can do is post information that is ill-gotten and stand up like a big-shot and say "I have information that no-one else has. Aren't I cool."

No, you're not cool. You're a jerk. You threaten what I, and others, have worked hard to attain. You should be stopped.

If you don't like the way Apple has chosen to compete, then don't use their products. Noone is forcing you to use a Mac. If you want a 'pure' open system then go play with Linux. Apple never said their system was free and purely open. That's your private fantasy.

Before Jobs returned to Apple, the sky *was* just about to fall. He came in, with his vision and plan, and has done fairly well at bringing the company back from the edge. His plan is a matter of balance. It is his plan to use FreeBSD as the core of OS X. It is also his plan to make the company succeed where others have failed. If you think you have a better plan, than take it to the Apple Board of Directors and lay it out. But I doubt anyone would take you seriously, because your ideas are full of holes.

I have chosen to support the Mac. The way to do that is to subscribe to Apple's rules as far as NDAs and cost structure. I, and others are more than willing to do that because we feel that is the best way to succeed in the current market.

If you don't like that plan, than go play somewhere else. But again, you have *no right* to get in my way and ruin what I am working for. It will be a great day why Apple finds out who you are and they revoke any supposed Seeding priviledges that they have unwittingly allowed you to have.


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## kilowatt (Aug 11, 2001)

> _Originally posted by stizz _
> *
> Did you ever drink underage? That was illegal. Did you ever drive faster than the posted limit? That was also illegal. Ever smoke a joint in college? Guess what,..that was illegal as well.  Ever fudged numbers on your taxes? Set off fireworks? Pay somebody under the table? Download a copyrighted mp3? How about  smoke a cuban cigar? Offer your antibiotics to a sick friend? Copy a VHS cassette?
> *




Did you ever kill some one? Well, that was illegal. Have you ever raped some one? That was illegal, too. Have you ever burned someone's house down? Illegal, too. Commited wire fraud? Also illegal. Stolen someone's car? Illegal.

Fact is, people do illegal things. And while I can't say I've done the above, I know people do (I watch the news). 

But just because people do illegal things doesn't mean that its ok to do now.

Lots of high school students have sex. I don't support doing that, despite its popularity.

And, lots of people pirate software.

Anyone who does these things knows they do something illegal. (Some people don't and they are called phycopaths or something, and thats another thread...)

It defines one as immoral when knowningly, they do something wrong.

If you can live with your self knowing that what you do is wrong, I pitty you.

However, it is the ability to change. The ability to become more than thought-less apes, that seperates us from the animal world. 

If a life of anarchy and impulsive immoral behavior suits you, then so be it. 

A sin is a sin. Its popularity, severity, and complexities aside. To know wrong and do wrong is a shallow thing. And to believe that it is ok is simply stunning.

Stizz, do you look at your life as a story - a history - or as a photo, still and single-framed?

I emplore you to look beyond popularity, fame, and selfishness.

What is popular is not allways right, and whats right is not allways popular.

I've done my share of wrong things. Let there be no mistake. But with each mistake, I learn more about myself and humanity. 

For we are not merely circuts. We don't simply run our course of life and then become disabled units. There is more to the human life than is tangible, and for that I live.


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## stizz (Aug 11, 2001)

This astounds me. I am being psychoanalyzed here in this thread now. Unfuckinbeliveable.

Do any of you feel better now that you have chastised me?

Better yet, how the hell am I supposed to respond.

[bitter sarcasm]
I am so sorry everybody. How could I have not known the errors of my ways. Is the damage I've caused with my selfishness repairable?  Will we all survive this ghastly mess that I have created? I went and threw all the cdr's I possess of pirated media (OS Builds and Nintendo Roms alike) and threw them in the microwave. They will never hurt anybody ever again. I even reformated all 12 of my hard drives with 1's and 0's to prevent my weak willed being from attempting to retrieve the deleted files. I then threw my cd burner into the swimming pool for good measure. I want to thank everybody for their concern. If you all hadn't been here, god only knows what I would have done next.
[/bitter sarcasm]

Like hell.

I can honestly appreciate some of the genuine concern for my soul and well being by certian posters. I am not an animal. But enough already.

 What was the title of this thread anyway .  "A lynching for stizz" ?
"Persecute the heritic" ?   "Anatomy of a Pirate 101" ?


*NO*

This thread is about 10.1 and experimentation with pre release builds. I would beg kindly that the petty BS stop now. If you don't like the content of this thread, then don't read it. There are plenty of other threads for you to read. If you do not like my attitude or my lack of moral fibre, please refrain from mentioning it. I will no longer respond to any provocation.

sigh

Now I'm too spent to report on my latest findings with 5f24. It would seem the facists in this thread have won this round.


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## zerorex (Aug 11, 2001)

A few posts ago, shithead, oops, i mean tenhead said that the people who are hurt when we download illegal builds are the small developers who dont get seed builds because apple wishes to cut down on leaks.... hum...

ok, so what you are saying is that it is my fault that some small developer out there decided to leak his seed build... even though, I did not ask him for it, I did not try to bribe him, hell, I dont even know who he is.  But still you maintain that I have in some way damaged this developer by downloading the software he CHOSE OF HIS OWN FREE WILL to leak...

humm....


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## kilowatt (Aug 11, 2001)

So I guess if you easily stole a car, it would be ther person who left the window down's fault?

Come on! You still made the choice, too.

Besides, those leeked builds might be from accidents. Its also possable, though not likely, that apple intentionally leeks pre-public builds, just to get a reacton from people like us.

And macosx.com is more than just tech threads.


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## tenhead (Aug 11, 2001)

> _Originally posted by stizz _
> *
> Do any of you feel better now that you have chastised me?
> 
> ...



You know, I really don't mean to get personal. Stizz, I don't know you outside of this thread. You may be a real nice guy, I don't know. You seem intelligent. You almost come off like you really think what you do when you post about unreleased builds is 'a good thing', and in some sense I can respect that. I apologize for any personal attacks I may have made, and going forward I would like to keep the thread more 'informational' and less name-calling.

But If I am walking down the street and see a sign that says 'Watch people steal other people's property - Right This Way', you can be damn sure that some people that show up are not exactly there to encourage the scene.

As far as the purpose of my posts, they are not really to call you names and to make you mad. In the purest sense, they are simply a plea for you to think a bit more about what you are doing. Isn't it legitimate to have a debate about 'whether it is right or wrong to post information about illegally leaked builds of OS X'?

Don't we all really want the same thing - to make OS X great? I would also say that I want Apple to succeed, but that may not be part of everyone else's goal. I think that if Apple succeeds, then OS X has a better chance of sticking around. OS's can be 'great' but not last because of market issues. (Amiga et. al.)

I feel that this may be where we start to disagree. You talk about the virtues of talking openly about these builds of OS X. I'm suggesting that, though maybe good intentioned, it may not be the best thing to be doing for the sake of the ultimate goal.

Part of the issue is the effect on Developer Seedings. There is no doubt in my mind that the leaks have affected this. I'm a developer, and I can see that first hand. Info from Apple is getting tighter and tighter, and it makes it more difficult for me to develop my code. They claim it is because of leaks.

Now, that may be a lie, but seeing the way Jobs works, I can see how his mode is inherently secretive. I think that is probably a reaction to being in this business so long and having been burnt many times by the competition. He is doing what he thinks is the best way to compete - and I think we should allow him to do so, because he is our best shot.

Like I've said before, if someone thinks they have a better plan than Jobs', then speak up! But don't be afraid to debate it because someone might disagree with you. You might even say that is the spirit of 'open source' - let everyone look and see and comment and crack and fix and push and shove - and hopefully you get a better result in the end.


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## stizz (Aug 11, 2001)

This is the last post i shall make in this thread regarding the tangent we seem to be off on.

If you want a debate about the morality involved here. By all means, start a thread about it. I may even join in the chaos that ensues. 

Now I obviously feel compelled to justify myself. I am poor. I cannot afford to purchase every bit of software Job's has his team shit out twice a year. Would you all deprive me of my quest for knowledge? Or disallow me to share my wonderful findings in a thread aptly titled? Would you prefer that I try not to get an edge in this competitve market and bring some value to my team? Or would you rather I go find some other ways to spend my time. Perhaps I should go back into the food indusrty and slave away the rest of my life delivering pizzas or making pasta for spoiled rich kids. Hell, there is always the army, I hear they teach you how to actually kill people there.

Point is. I paid enough already for all my various Macs and extra hardware. I don't pretend to know better than Jobs. He is no angel either. I wonder how xerox feels about piracy. Do you recall Pirate flags flying from the masts at Apple not so very long ago? I do.

Now can we please move on from this subject? Start a new therad already, sheesh.

BTW I am a nice guy in real life.


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## tenhead (Aug 12, 2001)

> _Originally posted by stizz _
> *
> Now I obviously feel compelled to justify myself. I am poor. I cannot afford to purchase every bit of software Job's has his team shit out twice a year. Would you all deprive me of my quest for knowledge? Or disallow me to share my wonderful findings in a thread aptly titled? Would you prefer that I try not to get an edge in this competitve market and bring some value to my team? Or would you rather I go find some other ways to spend my time.
> [...]
> ...



Yes, let's talk about OS 10.1. Let's do it honorably. And let's do it with pride. Let's not stoop to the immoral, unethical bullshit that is Windows. Microsoft doesn't care about users and the user's experience. All they care about is dominance. With dominance comes subordination and a culture of greed and no-holds-barred warfare.

We should all tell Steve that we don't like paying for an OS that isn't stable. We shouldn't have to pay for bug fixes.

We are fine with paying for new features. But not ones that were already in OS 9.

We should tell him that we hate file extensions. Creators and types are a better way. They have been for 20 years and they always will be. File Exchange on OS 9 works pretty well. It could be better. Anything is better than an OS that forces me to name a file with a stupid extension that has no meaning or value to me. It's the antithesis of what is Macintosh.

We need to find ways to patch a system that doesn't use Traps. We need to be able to do that and not ask Apple's permission. Customization has been the hallmark of the Mac. It's why we love it, because it can become what we each need it to be.

We need new music applications. Why hasn't anyone written a Cocoa sequencer? Where is the OMS Setup equivalent? Where's ASIO support? Where's the killer Sample waveform editor? I can't use OS 10.1 for making music. Not yet. Not until someone offers me the apps. Or I write them myself.

Why isn't there an AppleWorks lite suite bundled with all Macs? Doesn't AW come with iMacs? Then how come I don't get it when I pay $4000 for a top of the line Mac? I don't *want* to be dependent on the horrors that are MS Office.

Why doesn't drag and drop work on OS 10.1 work the way it does on OS 9? Why can't we drag from an inactive window to an active window?

Why do we have to ask our OS permission to write files into directories that we created while in OS 9? (which is still a requirement for more than 50% of the work I need to get done)

There's lots wrong with OS 10.1. We need to point those things out. We need to tell Apple what we want. And we need to find solutions.

Bring on the next release. It better be better than the last. It better fix the basic things like stable dial-ups and DSL/VPN support. The things that made us stick with Apple through thick and thin. An OS that doesn't get in our way, and truly feels like it is on our side. OS 9, for all its problems, still works more smoothly than OS 10.1. I don't want to feel embarrased to be a Mac fanatic. It could be, it can be the best of breed. And we all need to help make that happen. Soon. Because Win XP is coming, and OS X needs to kick it's sickly mind-numbing pretensious butt.


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## AdmiralAK (Aug 12, 2001)

What you fail to realize, ten head, is that OS X IS NOT from the same blood as OS 9 and all previous MacOS !!!!!!

OS X is a descendant of a UNIX OS called NeXTSTEP.  NeXTESTEP did NOT have all the features that you have in OS 9, it di not have file/creatro types it had extensions.  Drag and Drop didnt necessarily work like OS 9 because NeXTSTEP predates OS 9

As for software, MacOS software was NOT writen in one night, or even 3 months span.  It took a long long time for devs to deploy all the programs that are out there today and make the platform "popular", the same has to happen with OS X since IT IS NOT FORM THE SAME BLOOD AS OS 9.

OS X is only a MacOS in name and in the Fact that it runs on macs!  IT is not name MacOS because it is a continuation of the MacOS 9 DNA.


Admiral


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## tenhead (Aug 12, 2001)

> _Originally posted by AdmiralAK _
> *What you fail to realize, ten head, is that OS X IS NOT from the same blood as OS 9 and all previous MacOS !!!!!!
> [...]
> As for software, MacOS software was NOT writen in one night, or even 3 months span.  It took a long long time for devs to deploy all the programs that are out there today and make the platform "popular", the same has to happen with OS X since IT IS NOT FORM THE SAME BLOOD AS OS 9.
> Admiral *



Actually, I am _painfully_ aware of the different 'blood' from which OS X comes. I'm very familiar with the Pascal based Mac Toolbox and programming in C Unix environments as well as Obj-C NextStep/Rhapsody/Yellow/Cocoa. I know _why_ OS X is different, I just think it _shouldn't_ be.

FWIW, what I was mostly trying to point out in the context of this thread was that there are plenty of things to discuss and work on within the released versions and public information about 10.1 that don't require talking about unreleased builds. Things that were broken in 10.0 and we know will still be broken in 10.1.

One of the points brought up in the thread was the impact of a lack of 10.1 Seeds going out to a broad base of developers. It seems that only Premier developers are getting them, and that leaves the rest to rely on bootleg versions. Some claims were made that Apple has cut back distribution of seeds _because_ of bootlegging. If that's the case, that would be ironic.

Apple has not succeeded in getting enough developer support, especially early on. Developers have had plenty of time to develop apps, they just aren't highly motivated to put their efforts on the front-burner. It's largely a chicken-and-egg thing - developers don't see the demand for OS X native apps - and customers are waiting for apps before they upgrade.

This is where Apple has to step in. They have to inject some kind of motivation. Maybe they could help fund some startups like Stizz and get him working 'for' them instead of having him in the mode he currently finds he has to resort to. ;-)

Apple seems to to be somewhat schizophrenic about new application development. They talk about the 'open-ness' of Darwin and such, and how that is going to open up the world of Unix software to all the Mac users. Well, that's bullshit - existing Mac users don't want awk and sed and grep. They don't even want X Windows and GIMP. Those things are great for developers and Unix heads - but that is not the _existing_ Mac marketplace. The whole Unix thing is mostly lost on existing Mac users - they just know that it has something to do with why the machine will hopefully crash less when they are running Cubase or PageMaker (once an OS X version is available for those important apps).

As far as customers are concerned, it doesn't matter that the OS is 'new' (even though Apple's been working on it for more than 5 years...) It has to compete with whatever else is already out there - excuses don't make any difference to the paying customer. They are going to put their money into the product that works _now_, not the one that may work next year or the year after.

Those Unix underpinnings seem really targeted at strategic shifts for Apple and its installed base. They seem to be setting their long range scopes on back-room installations. Servers and such for businesses, networking, and schools. But they don't seem to be putting enough focus on the current OS 9 user who is looking at how they might jump to X. It simply is not ready for existing users. Users expect the new system to do _everything_ that OS 9 did and *more*.

Apple had this whole Public Beta thing, and easy access to early development kits for Students and others low-entry-cost developers. It seemed like they really were trying to jump-start the whole thing with a big spark. But now that the OS has shipped as 10.0, it seems they have pulled back significantly from their motivating efforts. They are appearently focusing on the Big Applications (as they must) but they can't forget the rest of the puzzle of small and medium sized use-cases that can be addressed by the small developer - if they are given the opportunity and a little bit of help.

Anyway, this thread is supposed to be about 10.1 and what it will be and what it won't be. Maybe the reasons 'why' are a topic for a different thread.


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## bradleysmith (Aug 13, 2001)

tenhead wrote - "Why hasn't anyone written a Cocoa sequencer?"

Do you mean "Why hasn't someone written a sequencer that runs natively under MacOS X?". If so then it's probably because the MIDI specs only came out a short while ago. I know this doesn't help but it may answer your question.

(I hope that is what you meant because...)

However, if you really did mean "Why hasn't anyone written a Cocoa sequencer?" then what you're really asking is "Why hasn't a company written a *new* sequencing program that only runs on MacOS X?"

Why on earth would a company that already has a MacOS 9 sequencer rewrite the entire application from the ground up using the Cocoa API? They wouldn't. They'd just carbonize what they've already got. Nothing wrong with that.

Everyone seems to be getting their knickers in a twist about the lack of Cocoa applications when there's really no need. Carbon based programs can easily be just as good as those written using the Cocoa API. Anyone writing a new, MacOSX only application using carbon wants their head examined but there's a whole bunch of stuff out there that just needs tweaking (maybe a bit more than tweeking in some cases) to run perfectly fine under X.

BTW, I'm disappointed that Steinberg have made no comment about an X version of Cubase.

Brad.


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## tenhead (Aug 13, 2001)

> _Originally posted by bradleysmith _
> *tenhead wrote - "Why hasn't anyone written a Cocoa sequencer?"
> 
> Do you mean "Why hasn't someone written a sequencer that runs natively under MacOS X?". If so then it's probably because the MIDI specs only came out a short while ago. I know this doesn't help but it may answer your question.
> *



The MidiServices were documented in the 10.0 release in March, and seed versions were available months before that. That's a good six months to port. Seems like a lot to me. I understand that companies can't necessarily put 100% of their resources on X immediately. It just seems typical problem for Apple - they develop the core technologies and then have to wait what seems like forever for developers to start using them.



> *
> However, if you really did mean "Why hasn't anyone written a Cocoa sequencer?" then what you're really asking is "Why hasn't a company written a *new* sequencing program that only runs on MacOS X?"
> 
> Why on earth would a company that already has a MacOS 9 sequencer rewrite the entire application from the ground up using the Cocoa API? They wouldn't. They'd just carbonize what they've already got. Nothing wrong with that.
> *



I understand about the legacy code issue. But it seems that using Cocoa can accelerate development of new apps (granted Mac X only) and it seems that would be a perfect opportunity for new startups to get a head start and at least some special exposure if they were to beat the big guys out of the gate. 

I'm thinking mostly of the Shareware/Freeware type of thing. I know it takes years to develop something like Performer/Cubase. But not everyone needs that kind of monster-application. There are a number of good shareware Sequencers available for OS 9, and tons of them for Win*. Similarly, a basic Wave Editor is not nearly as complicated as a sequencer and should be relatively straightforward to get going in Cocoa.

Apple has been filling in the Carbon support feverishly because they finally realized that they couldn't count on brand new Cocoa apps anytime soon (if ever - who wants to write obj-c, plus what happened to the Yellow Box for Windows?). So they are encouraging Carbon development. I'm not clear on what real advantages remain in Cocoa versus Carbon besides super cool GUI development, better memory management, better threads and messaging, better dynamic libraries, better maintanance model, better localization, better printing services... how much do they mean?

But yeah, at least Carbonize the dang things already!

[as I said in my last post, this stuff is getting way off topic for this thread and should probably be moved to a new thread - Where are the OS X Apps?]


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## bradleysmith (Aug 13, 2001)

I agree tenHead. We're off topic now.
I'll start a (nother) carbon and (as opposed to Vs) cocoa thread in an appropriate forum.

Brad


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## stizz (Aug 13, 2001)

Now back to ruining the suprise of 10.1
to summarize:
Speach funtions werk very very well.
Gui is noticably faster. Although, I have managed to crash the system preferences app on more than 1 occasion. 
Dock has undergone a few changes. Certian docklings no longer work. And you now have the option of choosing where you want your dock to be.
Apple has taken away the ability to put the trashcan on the desktop. (as far as i can tell)
The volume  keys and monitor brightness keys on my powerbook work now. They display a little tranparent window on your screen. there is also a volume and network setting pull down menu in the menu bar.
Remote login werks well. Locked folders remained secure. 
Web sharing werks well too. I configuered apache to host a test page off my powerbook.
No problems with ftp either. Fire runs nicely. The IE included seems sleeker, but is still crap.
Once I upgraded to 9.2, most classic apps ran very well. Including photoshop  and  golive cyber studio. i will try other apps soon, including sims and flash 5.
Offixe x preview left alot to be desired. Think office 2001, only 10 times buggier. Word crashed on its first run as soon as it opened. Then it worked decent. Excell has major screen refresh issues simialr to the ones present in IE that came with the Public Beta last year. The screen refresh bug is also apparent in this version of IE i'm using now. Other wise Office X looks just like 2001. Same layout , Icons,..everything. 
Toast Titanium would not even install on my system. I believe this is because I installed this build on a unix formated drive. I'm not sure tho. regardless, I have yet been able to burn anything. The required drivers are not present for my burners.
I did find an update regarding reason. Propellerheads are (working) on it. We'll see.
till next time


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## jock (Aug 14, 2001)

I've just read all 5 pages and finally a post relating to the topic... Thank you Stizz.
Regarding the developers that use seeds, please check out macnn.com and go to the forums on OSX, there you will see non other than Andrew Welsh of Ambrosia software who  posts on the 10.1 forums.
Stizz could you check out the samba implementation in 10.1 as its supposed to be seemless. Also I think were missing something because all my correspondence with "People in the know" smile when I talk about 10.1, its like there will be a big surprise come September 24th. We all know its fast, has more printer, CD drivers has native windows connectivity through samba, and supposedly has DVD burn/playback, but there is something else!


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## martijnvandijk (Aug 14, 2001)

sure there is something missing: iSub support! any info on that?


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## apb3 (Aug 14, 2001)

Wow. Spend a few days filing patents and negotiating deals in Iceland for DNA stuff and look at this...


I have neither the time nor the inclination to read every post above. However, one comment:

I actually remember a debate we had in law school re: piracy and its effects on any industry but, specifically the software industry. Turns out there is some data that shows piracy in some limited ways and in some limited circumstances helps the industry. I saw part of a post above saying they just try it out and buy the real version when it comes out. That's not really piracy... That's playing.

Take the computer industry as a whole (especially in Apple's case - software is tightly bound to hardware). There are many individuals that for whatever reason cannot afford the latest greatest software to run their businesses.  Maybe they buy  a pirated version. Turns out this happens in the places where piracy is most rampant for obvious reasons... But they DO put money in the hardware... Their business (hopefully) becomes more profitable and the need for buying pirated versions and all the headaches that come with them go away. They are now 'legal.'

We all know the world's not fair and there are haves and have-nots. I, and I think, most of you, are lucky enough to be a have. The have-nots need to trim corners where ever possible and remain profitable. The data shows that once these have-not companies get there shite together and start turning a real profit (if they ever do) they almost to a one become 'legal' in their licensing, etc..

These "success stories" would not be buying ANY software, hardware, Marlboros, Bonsai Kitties, whatever... if they had not, at the beginning, cut corners (in some cases this means piracy). 

I hope I can dig up the handouts from that class. There were some cool studies in the packets. Most were actually from the companies themselves stating, in one degree or another, what I just said.

The debate was great too. Maybe we can get one going here as well....


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## whitesaint (Aug 14, 2001)

Fahrvergnuugen is right, i cant believe alot of us (including myself) nit pick at everything everyone says.  I dunno why you guys do it.  cuz you want to be right, or you think the other person is wrong, or you simply love ur OS.  I simply love my OS.  I also heard that the 5G15 seed is out....?

-whitesaint


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## tenhead (Aug 14, 2001)

> _Originally posted by stizz _
> *Now back to ruining the suprise of 10.1
> to summarize:
> [...]
> *



Psst. Hey guys. Nobody's watching. Quick, stick this CD down your pants. Nobody's watching. Oh, come on, you won't get caught. Hey it only costs a buck to make anyway, so noone's really getting ripped too bad. Besides, those big company's make tons of money, we're only taking one. Come on, I do it all the time... tee hee.

Meanwhile back in the adult world: AAPL	18.73	-0.36 (-1.89%) Hey, it's only 36 cents...


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## jock (Aug 14, 2001)

Well I guess the "Registered developers" can now post as Apple has seeded a beta version of Mac OS X 10.1 to developers (build 5G15). It is available from the Apple Developer Connect site (if you are a Select or Premier member). The file is a whopping download of more than 450MB. An updated version of the Developers Tools CD and a new version of Disk Copy is also included. The new Disk Copy is essential, as you use it to create a disk image from the downloaded file and then burn a CD from the image. This CD is then used to install the update. For those developers who don't want to hassle with the download method, Apple is also shipping CDs with the software this week. 

Finally, at least as of this beta, you will have to do a clean install of the OS; it does not support installing over previous versions. Sleep mode is also not yet supported.
So lets here form you!


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## apb3 (Aug 14, 2001)

actually have heard it's up to the 5Hxxx levels. But who cares? I just want september to get here already!

Unrelated note: Buddy of mine at the firm (head of IT for our Boston Office) came into my office today to search apple's store site. He wants a new mac...

 I actually have to confess that while I only spend my own money on Macs, I do have two PIII laptops (is it just me or do they get REALLY hot on the thighs on the plane - hotter then my TiBook when watching DVDs. Battery on the TiBook died and wanted to finish watching Dancer in the Dark - GREAT FLICK) for some law stuff and making things easier when I'm doing contract and Intellectual Property work overseas. I always have my TiBook and every single one of the clients (especially the norse - in particular the Icelandic go apedoody over the TiBook. I've greased a few wheels by getting a couple for those clients) spends more time playing with it compared to the actual work we do with the PIIIs or Palms or whatever.  and two windoze boxes in my office. 

Having the IT head as my bud has bonusses... I get the cool laptops and no firewall so we play some decent games. Ever play EverQuest? I'm addicted. So, anyway, I'm kinda converted but it's not a REAL conversion - I'D never buy a windoze box or peice of software myself...

But now the table has turned and IT Buddy is at my desk saying things like "Kewl!" and "Wow, it's got that built in..." Read the MhZ myth and we discussed that for a while. He sided with the Apple philosophy for the way the pipeline is handled. He kept saying, "Man, that'll be great that I won't have to [insert Windoze chore that pisses you off a million times a day here] anymore... It does that without having to [insert arcane windoze method of doing whatever here]..." Amazing.

It all started with our OS X conversation when I installed it on X-Day (we should start using that, like D-Day for the release date of X) That's what got him hooked. Brought him to the decision to buy the hardware to run X. 

He's also pretty scared about XP for all the reasons mentioned all over these boards and other things that will make his managing a huge net a nighmare with XP.

I was cautious at first re: his comment of moving the firm over to X if he could show the real benefits to the old geezer that is super IT head for the whole firm worldwide. I thought it'd take years for old nets to be replaced by X if at all.  But he's actually getting really fired up to get this done before XP is an option....

I think his final decision was a top dual 800 for home and he went with an iBook for cost reasons instead of the TiBook he really wanted for a portable. Then he blew my friggin mind...

He ordered 2 dual 533 servers for the Boston office with X Server and some other fun crap we added to the firm's purchase order (we'll have to get creative for some of it - maybe Carmeggedon was too much...)

HE'S GONNA HOOK IT UP and show the geezer how they will kick ass.

This would never have even seemed a wet dream to me before X arrived. And like I said, I thought it'd be a slow process if it ever did happen... But this blew my mind.

And he commented that the prices were pretty competitve to stuff he had been purchasing all along for our current net.

Any similar experiences? Any IT heads thinking this through and want to comment/discuss? My Buddy would actually like to talk to others in the same position. And, I'd like to hear pros/cons.

Also, why no comments re: my piracy reminiscence from law school? I thought it'd be a cool discussion and I want to hear wat you guys think about that too...

I used to frequent the macfixit fora but tey're like a bunch of nazis with threaqd closures/deletions/etc. I actually like this place a lot better.  we have cool discussions and act like adults, are treated as such - even when we don't always act as such... No thought police here and I like that.

And, you guys are REALLY knowledgeable/helpful/funnyyada yada. Glad I made the switch back in June or whenever


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## termcap (Aug 15, 2001)

> Well I guess the "Registered developers" can now post as Apple has seeded a beta version of Mac OS X 10.1 to developers (build 5G15).



You appear to be misinformed. Registered developers are under NDA from discussing any prerelease builds, and now CAN'T post more than ever if they actually have the thing.


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## apb3 (Aug 15, 2001)

termcap:

That always makes me laugh... I just see the iconic Geek just downloaded god knows what from god knows whom and commenting on it to impress...that guy on the hack3r forum pretending to be a hot pre-teen virgin girl wanting him sooo badly..."I really do have nice boobies and I'd let you touch them..." javascript:smilie('')

Although there are ways to comment without really commenting. If you know what I mean...


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## kilowatt (Aug 16, 2001)

Well, apb3, today I went over to the local computer store with a pc/win32 'friend' of mine to buy cdr's, and we *accidently* stumbled upon the Apple Macintosh department. I showed him a Ti book, and he went nutz. He saying all that stuff your friend was saying, as well as "Why did I blow $2k on that compaq POS..."

It was running os9, but I took him home and showed him Mac OS X on my regretably slow G3, and he's like "Wow, that would run great on the Ti book..."

He's going to buy it, I know he will. Apple hard ware is sexy. It doesn't matter if you know about pipe lines and unix compatability. Look at a ti book, then look at a viao. Gota love the Ti book!


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## jock (Aug 16, 2001)

Termcap, I'm taking the piss... why do you think the " " are there


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## wadeb (Aug 20, 2001)

There seem to be a lot of very uptight people on this board.  

Can't you all just let people have their fun with these builds that are going to be free when they come out anyway?

And don't try and argue that we're causing damage to Apple or to Developers by leaking that beta.  I'm a small time developer, and guess what.  I'm benefiting from my access to leaked 10.1 betas.  So are all the other small time developers who can't afford a Premium subscription.

And I supported Apple by taking a chance with them and buying the new iBook, after 8 or so years of exclusive MS PC use.  I was disappointed by the speed of OS X, I'm not any more.

I guess I'm a little late to the discussion, but you're all acting very unreasonable and biased.

One last thing - Look at NVidia's drivers and their developer connection program for an example of pre-release software hurting noone.  All you need is a web page with some screenshots of your engine to get access to cheap hardware, email support and beta drivers, all for free.

-Wade


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## apb3 (Aug 20, 2001)

Have you actually read this thread?

Granted, there have been some off the wall, somewhat hostile and ill-informed comments, but taken as a whole, it is relevant, valid and interesting. 

If you did, indeed, read this thread (my posts, in particular the one discussing Piracy) you would see that your criticisms are pretty much dealt with.

I guess I'd like to see your examples of "unreasonable" and "biased." I'll agree that there are a lot of "uptight" people on this, and every, board.


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## wadeb (Aug 20, 2001)

I just don't think I've ever heard anyone respond so passionately (referring to the anti-pirates) over someone's use of an unauthorized pre-release version of essentially free software.

Perhaps I was a little harsh, but I can't believe people are getting so caught up over somebody saying '10.1 is fast!' to the point where they would actually refute the claim and imply that to achieve stability, they'll have to slow it down again significantly.  We're talking about bugs here, not processor yields.

-Wade

Addendum:  I disagree that the discussion is raising valid points since I don't think you can really have a debate about piracy in such a victimless situation.


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## apb3 (Aug 20, 2001)

Seems I pretty much agre with you except that the discussion of Piracy (at least my post on the subject - in my opinion) presented valid points.

You don't need to be discussing Quantum Physics to bring up and debate valid points.

My only regret is that so many of those so vehemently opposed to "piracy" chose not to discuss my post re:that subject. I thought it would have been fun.

I also think that that many people got upset with individuals claiming that v10.1 was going to suck. You seem like you know what I'm talking about so I'll assume you know that these people using half-assed leaked internal (usually) builds really don't know what they're talking about when running performance comparisons (if they even do anything beyond subjetive comparisons) and do really damage public perception of what X is or what the update will be...

That does piss me off.


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## free&unmuzzled (Aug 27, 2001)

> _Originally posted by kilowatt _
> *Lots of high school students have sex. I don't support doing that, despite its popularity.*



Oh gawd  . I just know that you are American! Last time I looked, the legal age of consent was 16. However, do please explain what teenage sex has to do with pirated software. I am all ears.


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## tenhead (Aug 27, 2001)

> _Originally posted by free&unmuzzled _
> *
> 
> Oh gawd  . I just know that you are American! Last time I looked, the legal age of consent was 16. However, do please explain what teenage sex has to do with pirated software. I am all ears. *



It's called 'an analogy'.

What you are doing is called 'being contrary'.

Though it may not be the best of analogies (not everyone is a great debater), his intended point is still valid and simple. He was responding to a post that said 'everyone else is doing it' - attempting to justify that software piracy is therefore valid.

Most of the anti-anti-piracy posts are similar to yours - nit-picking on semantics because there is no real ethical validity for the piracy positions. Piracy is wrong, and all the rationalization, presonal attacks, immature jokes and cultural slurs in the world don't change that fact.


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## apb3 (Aug 27, 2001)

I'd like to add to your points that it is "morally" wrong (actually a subjective thing - although I agree it is "morally wrong" TO ME and, obviously, you); it is not wrong for the bottom line of the BIG software corps. It might suck for little shops, but that, too, helps the big guys...


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## pippero_p (Aug 27, 2001)

The 5F24 build is a good demo version of Puma 10.1 but this build doesn't have all features tha the retail version of Puma will have.

Install the 5G24 and you'll see how many bugs it has...example? finder crash often, usb plug and play is not implemented...you get a kernel panic if you try to disconnect a usb peripheral....

However 10.1 versions are better than 10.0.4.... the speed of the system has been increased...

We have to wait for the release version of 10.1....


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## free&unmuzzled (Sep 2, 2001)

> _Originally posted by tenhead _
> *
> 
> It's called 'an analogy' etc.*



I don't remember saying that I was "anti-anti-piracy"(sic). I didn't state my position on piracy at all actually. I just wanted elucidation on the high school sex thing. And I don't think that guessing someone's nationality based on their posting is a cultural slur. I bet you are fun to wind-up at parties.

Whatever. Pro or anti-piracy, the main concern about these "10.1 is great posts is that they build up potentially unrealistic expectations. Expectations that the final release may not live up to. I have seen many forum posters on other forums swear blind that 10.0.4 window re-sizing was ultra-fast after "pre-binding/creating a separate VM partition/wearing green socks/insert your voodoo here." Whitesaint seems the young and enthusiastic type. I have found one post from an ADC member stating that he found window re-sizing only marginally improved in 10.1.

If this turns out to be the case then I would say that Whitesaint and others caused harm, albeit unintentionally, by posting their observations. Lets just hope 10.1 really is a speed demon.


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## apb3 (Sep 2, 2001)

I always forget to turn off those auto reminders macosx.com sends for new posts... "...may I cus," was drivin me nuts!

Anyway, it's September and only a few weeks away. When one of you have the ACTUAL release, let me know.

You know my position on all these topics. I'll leave it at that.

Anyway, I'll be in Deutschland settling (hope, hope) a case until the 14th so the wait won't seem too long to me 

I'll still be checking in occasionally, so keep things interesting.


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## strobe (Sep 3, 2001)

Personally I don't think Apple gives a damn about the leaks. They don't have anything to lose, it's not like Microsoft doesn't have builds weeks newer than the leaks, and it's not like they have to release builds as reliable as the public beta. 

The only bad aspect is the hype which is going to be there anyway. 

We already know what to expect from 10.1. Speed, DVD, burning, and bug fixes. In the meantime using a stable 10.1 build raises productivity significantly so sue me if I don't refrain from using it just because Apple wants to cover their ass legally.

As for the #1 10.1 improvement? NSDocument now behaves like it uses an FSRef instead of a POSIX file path. Cocoa apps now suck less.

Oh no! Now Microsoft knows!

--and just to make myself clear, if customers police themselves, they will be the ONLY ones who don't know what 10.1 has. Do you think DELL, Sun, HP, Microsoft, or Sony hasn't seen 10.1 builds? Well no, so long they don't get caught, and what are the chances of that? Exactly. It's legal ass-covering, get over yourselves.


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## AdmiralAK (Sep 3, 2001)

I can imagine M$ engineers making XP.1now based on X.1 hehehe


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## tenhead (Sep 4, 2001)

> _Originally posted by free&unmuzzled _
> *
> And I don't think that guessing someone's nationality based on their posting is a cultural slur. I bet you are fun to wind-up at parties. *



When you use a cultural distinction as a way to insult someone, I call that a cultural slur. Associating 'American' with one who celebrates chastity, and then implying that person's opinion is therefore less valuable is just misguided, to say the least.

Party on, Garth!


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## free&unmuzzled (Sep 5, 2001)

"one who celebrates chastity."???? Whatever. London-New York-Tokyo-San Francisco-Paris-Los Angles-Milan and nothing in between but a bunch of hicks.


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## tenhead (Sep 5, 2001)

> _Originally posted by free&unmuzzled _
> *Whatever. London-New York-Tokyo-San Francisco-Paris-Los Angles-Milan and nothing in between but a bunch of hicks. *



Hmmm. Absolutely clueless about why some people choose morality over transgressions, property versus anarchy, the virtues of maturity, or what any of this has to do with anything.

I guess all them backwoods simpletons just aint got no sofistikashen like the kewl kozmopolitan dewdz got. So...

Isn't there something about OS 10.1 that anyone wants to share?


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## eleveneleven (Sep 7, 2001)

get a grip


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## jock (Sep 7, 2001)

Observations about 4g48:
Photoshop will crash if you have Nortons installed, a normal set of 9.2 seems to work but if you have a few extras then forget it, same goes for Office, stick to normal extensions.
DVD playback as I have said before is really superb....does any other version of Unix do this? Please post as I'm sick of dos clowns e-mailing me telling me of the flaws with DVD playback. Special note to wingers, if you minimise DVD playerto the dock it does not play in the dock, please do not post this as a bug!
Is it stable well I've decided to install it on my Ti book 400/256
all F keys work re sound etc. Will test  windows and Novell connectivity next week.
One thing is that if an application needs your attention it will bounce in the dock
One more thing thing Seti seems to process faster....
Anyway come the 26th I think that we will all be surprised.


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## tenhead (Sep 8, 2001)

> _Originally posted by eleveneleven _
> *get a grip *



I think I've got a pretty good grip on _my_ ethics. What are you gripping?


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## Carlo (Sep 13, 2001)

Thanks to all those that posted there findings on OSX 10.1. I was a little concerned about the speed of 10.0.x however lived with it thinking that when the update comes out it will be faster. 

I saw job's demo at MacWorld NY however considering I dont know what hardware he was using Its a poor judge of speed. He could have been showing it on some quad g4 they have been kicking around the office for all we know. 

I have allways been one to beta test the builds before release (not for apple, I dont have a spare machine to do it on, nor the time to source them), microsoft are alot more open with the releases of there operating systems. I have been working with Windows XP here at work for a few months (its crap) and we decided not to role it out. The cd I have came from MS who wanted to show the people who push the technology (not by choice in my case) what they have to offer.

Apple is very secretive about the builds they have, which is fine thats the way they want to work. However with the builds and the legality of them comes many issues. When people are passionate about something they will allways want to have a look at it, before OSX came out I went to my local mac store and they had the DP1 release running on a machine so people could play with it, then closer to the release they had the different builds. 

If any of you come along and post infomation about 10.1 then I will listen to what you have to say. If you are against the distribution then dont do it and set an example. (But resorting to flames and preaching does not change a thing other than the perception others have about mac fans) I would be the last one to want anything bad to happen to apple.

Also does anyone have any ideas what apple think about these leaks, do they really get worried about them or do they just not care.


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## tsmith (Sep 13, 2001)

I was pleased to hear about the App that needs attention bouncing in the dock. It really used to piss me off in 10.0.x when you hear an error alert but as there in no app menu you didn't know which app it was. Does anyone know what happens if you have the dock hidden and an app needs attention.

Thanks

Ti 400/512

 "If necessity is the mother of invention, ingenuity is the father"


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## Matrix Agent (Sep 13, 2001)

There are better things to do than to crash the computers!

I remeber something that you tricked the user into running, and an installation bar would come up and lock out the rest of the OS. The bar would first tell then that it was deleting everything, then installing Mac OS!


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## AdmiralAK (Sep 13, 2001)

I am tired of waiting for 10.1 to come out..
I wanna see what it looks like...umm..well not really what it looks like but to feel its speed, and "new" functions, I wanna see its DVD player in action...burning in action....and possibly greek in action.


I dont like downloading builds though  ...takes too long....

when is 10.1 coming out already ? 


Admiral


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## Red Phoenix (Sep 13, 2001)

Well, if you're to go by MOSR, they suggest the 24th or later. I can wait 11 to 17 days...I can...I think.


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## DooBall (Sep 13, 2001)

has anyone had a chance to try any prebuild on a powerbook (g4)?

the dvd in os9 is horrible.  it lags like crazy when your using the menu's, and etc.

anyone know if it will be better for os x?  is their any chance ill be able to multitask (dvd and irc) ?


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## Ssargon (Sep 14, 2001)

I tried watching a DVD yesterday on 10.1 and it runs really good.
Speed is much better than OS 9!
I love OSX and I hope you all get the OSX 10.1 update at the end of this month.


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## jock (Sep 14, 2001)

I have 5g48 on a ti400 (256), DVD is acceptable but it will stutter if you :
1. Move the window around the screen
2. Run the mouse through the dock
3. Have multiple downloads happening
It is a vast improvement over recent builds and one can only surmise that 10.1 GM will be perfect.


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## vikingstad (Sep 16, 2001)

> _Originally posted by tsmith _
> *I was pleased to hear about the App that needs attention bouncing in the dock. It really used to piss me off in 10.0.x when you hear an error alert but as there in no app menu you didn't know which app it was. Does anyone know what happens if you have the dock hidden and an app needs attention.
> *



If the dock is hidden, it'll show a bouncing icon appearing at the bottom on the screen, so you'll sure know. It's a great feature and I like it a lot!


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## Cardo (Sep 19, 2001)

You do have a point there.  It's not good to give sensational reviews because then people expect more than they will get.
I say we all say 10.1 is absolute crap and when it does come out it will blow everyone's minds


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