# Ding-Dong the Witch is dead!! IE no more!



## uoba (Jun 13, 2003)

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/?domain=macuser&page=news/news_story.php?id=43191

For real... Internet Explorer will no longer be developed for the Mac.


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## dlloyd (Jun 13, 2003)

Ah well, who cares? I haven't used it for months, and that will be one less version I have to check my web designs on!


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## uoba (Jun 13, 2003)

Yep, same here... haven't used it since Camino/Chimera started really coming on strong (until Safari came of course )

So, what next for Microsoft to cross off it's Mac list of products!?


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## serpicolugnut (Jun 13, 2003)

Hey, I use Safari 95% of the time. The other 5% is split up between Camino and Firebird, as Safari doesn't work completely with my online banking site.

That said, I do hope that MS doesn't stop development of IE for the Mac. I don't use it, but having options are good. Especially when there are so many moronic web developers who code sites to work on nothing but IE (they should all be shot IMO). 

Competition is good. The more competition, the better. If MS doesn't intend for IE to compete in the Mac browser field, then good riddends. But I do hope MS sees an opportunity and not and out, and decides to actually (gasp!) - innovate with the Mac browser, like they did back in 1999, when IE 5 for the Mac was way ahead of the PC version.


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## monktus (Jun 13, 2003)

What interested me was the statement that MS will no longer build 'standalone' versions of IE. For those who don't agree with integrating a web browser into their OS, that's not good. If MS continue with their current attitudes, will you even be able to install Opera in Longhorn?


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## MikeXpop (Jun 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by monktus _
> *What interested me was the statement that MS will no longer build 'standalone' versions of IE. For those who don't agree with integrating a web browser into their OS, that's not good. If MS continue with their current attitudes, will you even be able to install Opera in Longhorn?  *



Install it? Of course! Why not? Now having it work, that's another thing entirely. "DOS ain't done 'til Lotus won't run". Or in this case, "IE ain't done 'til Opera won't run".

This is interesting though. Apple may try and make huge strides and finish Safari in time for Panther, so that the new 970/Panther machines won't be stuck with an old browser.


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## senne (Jun 13, 2003)

read more

ohwell... doesn't bother me


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## RacerX (Jun 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by serpicolugnut _
> *That said, I do hope that MS doesn't stop development of IE for the Mac. I don't use it, but having options are good. Especially when there are so many moronic web developers who code sites to work on nothing but IE (they should all be shot IMO).
> 
> Competition is good. The more competition, the better... *



I'll second that! I have no love for Microsoft, but any company stopping production of a product for our platform can only be thought of as a bad thing.


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## evildan (Jun 13, 2003)

Ouch! I don't use IE, except to test beta versions of websites. I hope Safari fixes the few minor points by then. 

This was bound to happen. IE is not half the browser Safari is and one only can hope that Safari will get better with time.

IE fans, hang on tight to your versions, might want to toss one on a CD-ROM somtime before the summer runs out.


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## senne (Jun 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by senne _
> *read more
> 
> ohwell... doesn't bother me
> ...



oops, i was 8 houres too late

sorry!


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## Arden (Jun 13, 2003)

From http://news.com.com/2100-1032-1012943.html?tag=nl:


> Asked where another standalone Microsoft application might disappear from the market, Ostrau advised, "Watch what happens with the media player."


They had better not get rid of MP.  It may not be the best player in the world, but it's better than Real Player and it's the only one that plays .wmv or sometimes .avi.


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## gwynarion (Jun 13, 2003)

Inevitable and very welcome except for a one site that I must use it to access*  I'll just have to hang on to my current version and hope that the site I need it for gets a clue and implements something better.

I subscribe to Sirius Satellite Radio and am able to listen to the music streams online while I'm not in my car, but need WMP to do so and can only activate it for the site using IE (password protection and that sort of thing).


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## Reality (Jun 13, 2003)

Doesn't bother me any. I never use IE. A matter of fact, it gave me more problems then anything. I use Safari 99% for everything.


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## sheepguy42 (Jun 13, 2003)

M$ is no longer developing standalone IE for Windows or Mac, so losing it on the Mac is not truly a loss. It simply is incorrectly named now, and is only the integrated file browser for Windows (like Finder in MacOS X) AFAIK. Since M$ brought MSN to the Mac, they will now only have MSN explorer as their flagship browser, so to speak. Funny how its main purpose, as some others have said, is to be an IE that promotes MSN Messenger. Funny because that is what Netscape really is: Mozilla made to promote AIM.


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## fryke (Jun 14, 2003)

They're only adapting to the situation. What good does it do MS to develop a browser for free? True, on the Windows platform, they got a big advantage, but on the Mac platform? People didn't really _want_ a new or better IE, as long as there are nice alternatives. And that's what Safari, Camino and OmniWeb have become as of late.

Let's hope that the manhours go into VPC and Office 11:mac.


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## rbuenger (Jun 14, 2003)

I've alos never used the IE. I'm working 99% with iCab and the 1% with OmniWeb. But in my opinion iCab is the best broswer due to the hundreds of options to control


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## scruffy (Jun 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arden _
> *From http://news.com.com/2100-1032-1012943.html?tag=nl:
> 
> They had better not get rid of MP.  It may not be the best player in the world, but it's better than Real Player and it's the only one that plays .wmv or sometimes .avi. *



No worries, there's plenty of choices for Windows Media files on OS X.  I use MPlayer OS X - it's a port of the Linux program MPlayer.  Check version tracker, there's other alternatives too.


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## pyroboy (Jun 14, 2003)

Many of you may not use it, but many others do. It concerns me to se IE go away because it can be seen as another nail in the coffin of Apple, whether it is true or not. 

When Microsoft made the $150 million dollar investment in Apple in 1997, it was seen as a rescue and a bailout for Apple. It sounds plausable, but in actuality Apple had somewhere between $1-2 Billion in cash reserves. In fact, Apple was in better financial shape than most companies in the same size range and sales. Still, Microsoft's actions, which was one of the few ways Apple could get them to settle longstanding patent infringement issues was seen as a bailout. 

Apple has a bad history of abandoning software and hardware initiatives. Safari is still in beta. When will Apple finish it? Will it have similar functionality to the Windows version of IE because honestly, this is the only real Browser people code for when developing Web sites. Nobody is going to take into account Safari for years, if ever, when designing Web sites. Few people support Netscape, let along Opera and they have actual marketshare. Apple's share will be so low for years that Google's crawler will register more hits than Safari.

With that said, I'm sick of Microsoft! Their stupid e-mail tools allow viruses to run rampant, IE is a huge resource hog and the damn thing causes the color wheel to start spinning with no aparent reason! What a resource hog! Now they want to defend us from viruses when they are the major promoter of viruses through e-mail and macros, not to mention their own gaffs with Windows OS. 

You'd think this kind of neglegence would be considered criminal and companies and individuals should start a class action lawsuit against the company for neglecting to protect people from viruses.


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## mindbend (Jun 15, 2003)

I used to believe that Apple depended on Microsoft and that we, the believers, should all reluctantly bow down to the monopoly and be thankful for the small teet they have allowed us to suckle from.

I also convinced myself that Microsoft Office was absolutely critical to Apple's survival. Same for Explorer.

I was wrong.

Let's face it, at only 3-5%, it can't get much worse. So rather than perpetuating this "Thanks, massa" attitude from Apple, I love the new "Screw you" approach (Safari, Mail, iWorks [if it exists], etc.). 

I like that Stevo is willing to risk it all to develop a very self-contained, integrated and enjoyable OS experience. 

If M$ never updated v.X for me, I could care less. As long as the current version keeps working, I'm good to go. It's just a freaking Word Processor, Spreadsheet and Presentation suite, it's not like it's Lightwave or something. [I do need compatibility with my PC cohorts, so iWorks best be able to Read/Write .doc, .xls and others.]

Whoah, I got way off tangent here. What was the topic again? Oh yeah...IE for Mac gone. I DONT' CARE!

I take that back. I do sort of care cuz I do web development and am always testing across browsers. Unfortunately, the Mac/PC versions of IE have never been on par, so its loss doesn't really mean anything. It's not like you could ever look at the same page in Mac/PC IE and have them look the same.

Safari, glitches aside, has already proven itself to be a more standards compliant browser (than IE 5), so I look forward to seeing it mature.


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## Arden (Jun 15, 2003)

Scruffy:  What about OS 9?  Remember, only about 1.5-2% of the market uses OS X regularly, not including me.  Besides, who offers the best support for WMP files, a program from Microsoft or a program from a 3rd party?  (Knowing Microsoft, though...)

I just hope that if they do decide to update IE 5.1 for 9, it includes support for the latest DOM, CSS, etc. updates and properly displays certain kinds of coding techniques.  That's the main thing about browser updates, they have to display new types of technologies and new evolutions of old technologies correctly.


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## qwikstreet (Jun 15, 2003)

I could care less to see IE go the way of the dinosaurs. As it follows the piss poor Front Page import they once made. 

IE was a huge resource hog and it would of only gotten worse once IE intergrated tabs into the browser. There are many other options out their to use for a browser or any other app M$ makes for Apple. I, personally, have slowly pushed out my need for M$. I even had M$ on my work PC in minimal states. 

One theory I have on the stoppage of IE is that they don't wan't to develop their browser to run in an open source environment. Maybe they don't want some brainiac hack it up and make a version for Linux.


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## pds (Jun 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by qwikstreet _
> *One theory I have on the stoppage of IE is that they don't wan't to develop their browser to run in an open source environment. Maybe they don't want some brainiac hack it up and make a version for Linux. *



The building of the browser into the OS seems to me to be dangerous to computer users everywhere - connected with the Trusted Computer Group and the Fritz chip. Many people have serious misgivings of the control that MS or anyone with the keys will have over all sorts of data. (<www.gnu.org/philosophy/can-you-trust.html>)

With the preeminent browser (by sheer numbers) integrated into a system built on DRM technology, it may become harder for non MS machines to access all sites, more hassle for the common user, more reason to go with the flow.


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## Tarambana (Jun 15, 2003)

Pyroboy:

Don't really worry, no nail, no coffin as of yet 

First, IE is also not going to be developed any further on the Window$ platform. It is not as if M$ would drop their Macbu unit: they are just focusing on MSN as their web explorer. I guess it's got to do with their project of focusing of applications that would work per pay (like the pay per view business model), and which is also prepared (or looks like it is) for MS Office 2003 for PCs, which would need to pay a monthly fee for its online services.

Therefore, it's got nothing to do with Apple, but with M$'s own coffin: I really believe they won't be able to get through with that projects. At least, I would never pay a monthly or annual fee for being able to use a software program such a web explorer or a word processor.

Oh, and I don't know if it is true, but I think it has been rumored that Safari will go Gold Master by this month


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## pyroboy (Jun 15, 2003)

Oh...joy.

I have read that (I didn't include it in my rant) but the perception that MS is abandoning Apple is still a possibility if ignorant asses want to make an issue out of it.

As someone who develops Web sites, I will always use the MS Browser because that's the nav experience most of the people visiting my sites use.

I use Microsoft products every day to get things done. I use Excel because it is a very useful tool that does stuff Works will never do. The same with Word. If Microsoft abandons the Mac platform, I'm going to need to have more Windows stuff in my life and I'd rather not deal with that.


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## Gimpy00Wang (Jun 15, 2003)

Eh...IE was the first thing I trashed when I got my PowerBook. I couldn't empty the trash fast enough.

- G!mpy


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## uoba (Jun 15, 2003)

It really is no deal concerning test standards on IE Mac version, the argument: 96% of world use IE, means the Windows version. As someone has rightly pointed out, the Mac version might as well be a totally different product with a different name compared to the Windows version!

There has never ever been any transparency between Mac IE and Windows IE (v5 upwards).

Microsoft could not possibly fit their business model for IE for Windows into the Mac world anyway. Again, some one else has pointed out that Microsoft cannot gain access system-level wise (as Apple obviously can). Plus, Mac users just do not fit the bill when it comes to those types of services: heightened advertising (see Messenger), regularly paid supscription services (the way the .Net ideal will be/is), and the integration which is all of the Microsoft products being indespensible to one another.


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## malexgreen (Jun 15, 2003)

Hopefully MS won't decide to not support improvments to Windows Media Player or MSN Messanger for MacOSX.  I think that the ROI argument for IE applies as well to these applications, although these will have a more negative impact on Apple than Microsoft.  If Apple comes out with a Quicktime that can run WMV, WMA, and an ichat that can talk to MSN Messanger users, then this will happen.

I hope Apple takes what just happened to heart if they are planning an iOffice.  Things will get a little dirtier for them if MS decides to dump support for Office X if Apple competes with them in the office applications space.


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## dlloyd (Jun 15, 2003)

Article from C|Net on the subject:
http://news.com.com/2100-1045_3-1017126.html?tag=fd_top


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## toast (Jun 15, 2003)

www.zeldman.com
www.meyerweb.com
www.whatdoiknow.org

All good points.


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## Zarembo (Jun 15, 2003)

Hey, I use M$ Internet Explorer and Windows Media Player because I must have the ability to access certain streaming radio stations. 

Safari, although I think it is great, won't and can't access certain necessary information. And Safari, isn't ready for prime time just yet, there are too many sites which are incompatible with it. 

I hope I don't lose the ability to listen to Windows Media Player and that Apple will build the capability to decipher WMP before M$FT eliminates IE. If not, I'm toast and will need to listen to streams on a crappy Wintel machine, 

Isn't it amazing that Realplayer and WMP actually play better on a Mac than on a PC?


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## Pengu (Jun 15, 2003)

"Losing" IE, is i think no big loss. Because we aren't losing anything. When was the last time it was updated? Just because they won't make new versions, doesn't mean the silly people using it have to stop. And as for MSN & WMP, There are soooo many third-party IM clients that it's a non issue. And if they want to start charging people to use MSN, they won't drop support, they'll just slow down development and charge people the same price for a 2 1/2 year old program. As for WMP. MS will keep WMP Mac for the same reason Apple Keeps Win32 Quicktime. To be able to say its compatible. And. As someone said. VLC plays WMP files, and it doesn't do that stupid "buffering" thing when its reading a LOCAL file.


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## symphonix (Jun 16, 2003)

> Ding-Dong the Witch is dead!! IE no more!



Isn't that a little insulting to witches?


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## adambyte (Jun 16, 2003)

Ba-dumb-ching!

Hey, people of the Wiccan religion consider themselves "witches." Isn't that song just plain mean to witches?

It's been a while since I visited any site that ONLY worked in IE, and not in Mozilla, Camino, OmniWeb, or Safari. Hopefully the number of MSIE-only sites will dwindle and web-masters discover that there are a significant number of people using Linux and Mac OS X.

R.I.P. M.S.I.E. You will be-.... eh, who am I kidding? *pops open bottle of Martinelli's sparkling cider*


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## Arden (Jun 16, 2003)

The two software applications that basically keep the Macintosh platform alive:  Adobe Photoshop and Microsoft Word.  Without these two applications, the Mac platform would be nowhere near as big as it is (which still isn't big enough; now, 15-25% marketshare would be absolutely delightful).

I think, even if Microsoft stops adding features and whatever to its browsers, they should at least release updates that add compatibility for new coding features and web standards.  They could really go far to add capabilities for stuff like CSS3 (when it is finally finalized) and dynamic visual effects.


> _Originally posted by Tarambana_
> *...If not, I'm toast...*


You'll never be toast.  Toast is his own person, and you can never truly become him, even if you somehow steal his password, because I doubt he'd let you have it.


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## Dris (Jun 16, 2003)

Okay, while Safari, Camino, Firebird, etc are a heck of a lot better than IE now, you can't dissavow all credit.  IE/Mac was the first browser on earth with formidable CSS1 and CSS2 support.  It was a dang fine browser before they stopped upgrading it.  MS's Mac development team really helped lead other browser companies in the right direction.

And anytime I hear someone complain that IE/Win renders "just fine" while the Mac version sucks, I wanna rip their balls off, because obviously the problem is with them and their authoring.  IE/Win in all forms has to be the most obsolete of the modern browsers, including IE5/Mac.

Anyways, that's my two cents.  The suck part is is that MS will indeed continue developing a Mac browser, but it will be the MSN Companion pay service.  How am I supposed to know how well that piece of crap complies to web standards?  I'm certainly not paying for that.

Okay, one last pseudo-paragraph.  Who in their right mind decided that rendering HTML and CSS was best left to an operating system?  MS pisses me off beyond comprehension with their system/browser integration.  "Gee, why should we have applications with so-called 'purposes'?  I have an idea!  Let's just make the operating system one big application that does everything!"  Eventually, that's what Windows will be, and there will be no need for PC users to buy software from companies other than MS.

That was a rant, I know.  I want to die.


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## Randman (Jun 16, 2003)

http://money.cnn.com/services/tickerheadlines/for5/200306132208DOWJONESDJONLINE000943_FORTUNE5.htm

The witch isn't dead (the witch also owns a % of Apple. The witch just wants to be paid. New Office will come.


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## gwynarion (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Dris _
> *And anytime I hear someone complain that IE/Win renders "just fine" while the Mac version sucks, I wanna rip their balls off, because obviously the problem is with them and their authoring.  IE/Win in all forms has to be the most obsolete of the modern browsers, including IE5/Mac.*


I have to disagree with you in part.  There are a number of CSS2 positioning things that do not work correctly in IE (Mac or Win).  While Mac IE 5 was the most standards compliant browser when it came out you have to remember that it was up against Netscape 4.x.  With the advent of Netscape 6 IE lost that claim to fame and it has been loosing ground steadily.


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## Koelling (Jun 16, 2003)

> Again, some one else has pointed out that Microsoft cannot gain access system-level wise (as Apple obviously can).


 Saying this is a pretty low blow, even for Microsoft. Apple developed a framework, which anyone can do and they are open sourcing it (I don't know if they have yet since it's not finalized but they will) so that anyone can use it.

There's nothing that Apple has integrated with the system that wont work just as well in anyone else's browser. Just look at OmniWeb, it's way faster now that they are using webcore. Microsoft is just trying to make an excuse for it's own integration into the OS.


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## pyroboy (Jun 16, 2003)

People don't use MSN because it's the best way to access the Internet, they use it because of Fear Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD). Look at the commercials and you will see FUD cleverly disguised, but leveled as the major reason to use the software. The Butterfly protects your kids from unwanted things. It stops viruses. It gives you hassle-free, safe browsing.

What a load of bullshit. 

But people love FUD because they have been panicked like sheep to herd away from all the scary things. They don't want the viruses, they don't want their kids looking at porn, they don't want all that bad stuff. 

The problem is that the bill of goods they are sold is no real protection. MSN filters more messages and has parental block devices, but it also filters out real messages from grandma and blocks access to sites that may not be so bad. You'll still be subject to viruses because people have not learned basic common sense.

I just hope that Apple can get Safari finished and out the door and support it as it should be supported. I am not happy with the job they are doing with Mail. I am still using Eudora even though it is a dead product and has only 3rd party spam tools. It has far superior message editing features and in two versions of upgrades, Apple has still not shown any signs of addressing proper e-mail formatting tools and no, I am not talking about just typefaces, there is far more to it than that. 

That is why I am concerned about losing IE. The simple fact is, most Web sites are not going to pay attention to the miniscule marketshare of Safari. Even if every OS X user used exclusively Safari, it would be but a blip on the overall picture of Web Browsers and not really worth supporting. Perhaps if Apple could release a Windows version, it could have a fighting chance!


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## Arden (Jun 16, 2003)

Despite everything, I get the distinct feeling that there may be something more important in the world than how well a browser renders a web page.  Well, maybe not.  Long live Safari!


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## hulkaros (Jun 16, 2003)

IE no more!?   

Oh, well!


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## tsizKEIK (Jun 16, 2003)

its a shame... hahahaha


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## Pengu (Jun 16, 2003)

All these posts i see from people saying "Oh no, we've lost IE, and people don't code for Safari..."

While it seems blatantly obvious to some, (X)HTML/CSS is actually SUPPOSED to work in any browser. And while everyone says "I can't use safari for <insert random site here>", since safari was released, i have used nothing but safari, with the exception of when im checking my css/html compatibility. Sure, on rumortracker.com the little menu things at the top dont work properly. 99.99998% of websites have a contact email address on them. write to them and tell them that it goes screwy in safari. they might just do something about it.. And for those that do a User-Agent check telling you that you HAVE to use IE, you can use the Debug menu to tell safari what user-agent it should say it is.
Yes, it is nice to have the option to use IE there. Not because it's IE, but because its an option, and as a famous guy called Steve said, "I like having options!"
But also, don't assume its the end of the world for Mac users everywhere.


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## Cat (Jun 17, 2003)

For some sites it helps to change some settings (turn off pop-up blocking, or turn on accept all cookies). Since Safari got Tabs I'm using 90% of the time and have encountered no major problems with the sites I navigate to.
I haven't been using IE for years now, I used Chimera / Camino instead. Indeed for the 10% sites Safari screws up, I revert to Camino and everything is fine.
It's good to have options, and indeed we do have a lot of them on OS X: Mozilla, Phoenix, Camino, Safari, Opera, OmniWeb ... IE is no great loss.

Edit: And of course, Links, lynx, and all the other X11/Gnome/KDE/ browsers: Konqueror etc.


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## Randman (Jun 17, 2003)

> For some sites it helps to change some settings


 That's a bit of a pain. I don't want to remember what sites need what preferences. And I don't want to have enable things I don't on sites I'm new to.
  That said, I only use IE on rare occassion these days. More so to clean out my hotmail folder even though I use Mail to get my hotmail stuff (as well as my .mac e-mail) since Safari still doesn't like the MSN sites much.

  BUt it would be interesting to see if there'll be a Safari for Windows. There'll be a market for it after Windoze folks get all ga-ga over the Music Store when it ports over to them and they become more and more receptive to the Apple way.


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## Evil Ryu (Jun 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Randman _
> *BUt it would be interesting to see if there'll be a Safari for Windows. There'll be a market for it after Windoze folks get all ga-ga over the Music Store when it ports over to them and they become more and more receptive to the Apple way. *



Now that would be interesting. Maybe windows users will suddenly realise theres more to Macs than just jazzy adverts and pretty casings to the computers...

As for IE, I am a bit annoyed that they're not continuing it on. I use Safari loads, but I have admittedly been anticipating a release of IE6 for Mac. Only because I know that this will be the browser in which all pages can be viewed. Some times with Safari, im unsure if the site is showing itself fully, as some things might not work, and simply arn't shown.

But, as everyone else has been saying, if Apple goes on with their own stuff (iOffice, or iWorks whatever it'll be, and Safari etc...) then it simply wont need MS stuff.
I think it makes it more interesting havent them as far apart as possible. More fun rivalry!


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## dlloyd (Jun 17, 2003)

This has already been discussed at quite some length in other places on this site


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## Randman (Jun 17, 2003)

There's no harm in a little overlap.    I must've skipped that thread anyway. Glad to see great minds... blah blah.


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## dlloyd (Jun 17, 2003)

I know, I was just pointing it out to anyone who didn't know about it


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## Myke (Jun 17, 2003)

I am puzzled that so many people in this thread have never experienced sites which will only work with IE. I can't use Safari for Internet banking because both of the banks I use have decided they will ONLy use IE. So Safari goes nowhere. And it isn't just banks. One of the UK's biggest online computer retailers, DABS won't let you log on unless you are using IE (though they don't admit it).

The recent decision of MS not to allow stand alone downloads of IE for PC users is a sinister development in my view. It means that IE will become the browser that is only available if you buy a Windows machine. As they have 95% of the market, and since many IT departments are too spineless to stand up to them, their constant wrecking of standards will eventually mean, that to use the internet, you need Windows.

I'm amazed people don't see this.


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## dlloyd (Jun 17, 2003)

Maybe 'cause we plan on changing the world _before_ things get that far?


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## mr. k (Jun 17, 2003)

You can still get IE Mac, but you need to buy MSN Mac OS X, and if you live overseas I don't think MS provides Internet.  So if you live in an area within the US where MSN provides service and you are willing to switch ISP's, go ahead!  But MSIE 5 for Mac wasn't all a bad browser, it was the first browser to support a lot of new standards at the time it was released.  It's development was sluggish though, and by the time Safari rolled around it was grossly under-adequate.  I used it until I got Jaguar, a few weeks after MacWorld 2002, when Safari was released.


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## Evil Ryu (Jun 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by dlloyd _
> *Maybe 'cause we plan on changing the world before things get that far?  *



Just us lot on the macosx forums? Yeah, I reckon we can do it 

Where to start?


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## pyroboy (Jun 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Pengu _
> *All these posts i see from people saying "Oh no, we've lost IE, and people don't code for Safari..."
> 
> While it seems blatantly obvious to some, (X)HTML/CSS is actually SUPPOSED to work in any browser. And while everyone says "I can't use safari for <insert random site here>", since safari was released, i have used nothing but safari, with the exception of when im checking my css/html compatibility. Sure, on rumortracker.com the little menu things at the top dont work properly. 99.99998% of websites have a contact email address on them. write to them and tell them that it goes screwy in safari. they might just do something about it.. *



I run into problems with Web sites using IE for Mac. I get messages that read, "This Web site requires Internet Explorer and Javascript to be turned on" or something like that.

If someone codes JavaScript to only run with certain Browsers, something you have to do in many cases to fix inconsistencies between different versions of IE and of course, Netscape, I will get an error code that I need to run a Browser that uses JavaScript. It's lazy programming and it is not going to change anytime soon. A lazy Web engineer might figure out how to get a Mac version of IE to run, but why would they even care about Safari?

Maybe that will change in 3 or 4 years, but for now, we will run into problems that honestly most Webmasters will not care to fix. The basic reason is that if they were doing their job the correct way in the first place, there would never be an issue about cross-browser compatability issues.


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## gwynarion (Jun 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Myke _
> *I can't use Safari for Internet banking because both of the banks I use have decided they will ONLy use IE. So Safari goes nowhere. And it isn't just banks. One of the UK's biggest online computer retailers, DABS won't let you log on unless you are using IE (though they don't admit it).*


I don't know what it is like in the UK, but where I live in Ohio I have a choice of at least a dozen different banks I could use.  As things stand now I use a bank that I need to use Camino for, but I expect that when the full version of Safari comes out that will no longer be the case.  If the bank's site were only accessible using IE I would have switched to a different bank long ago.  As for retailers there are several that I have encountered that did not work with Safari, though they do work with Camino.  With Safari being a beta browser I've been content to let things stand that way, but once it is out in full I will be writing letters to those retailers if their sites do not yet work with Safari.  Regardless, though, there are many different options on the web, so I don't feel myself limited.



> *The recent decision of MS not to allow stand alone downloads of IE for PC users is a sinister development in my view. It means that IE will become the browser that is only available if you buy a Windows machine. As they have 95% of the market, and since many IT departments are too spineless to stand up to them, their constant wrecking of standards will eventually mean, that to use the internet, you need Windows.*


I think you're really over-reacting here.  For some time now I've been reading lots of stories about businesses, non-profits and even local governments switching away from MS Office to free alternatives.  On top of that the alternative browser market seems to me to be stronger than ever.  Yes, Netscape has not made any great come back, but Mozilla (and its many derivatives) and Opera are going stronger than ever.  And of course on the Mac side of the fence there are even more credible alternatives.  We Mac users may be a minority, and a small one at that, but we are a very vocal and very persistent minority that has more clout than our numbers would seem to indicate.

So do your part and when you see a site that does not support Macs or other browsers let them know about it.  Send them a detailed letter (snail mail if you can, but email otherwise) and let them know in detail what problems you encountered and ending with the fact you *know* they will be eager to correct the problem.  If they reply in the negative hint to them that it seems unwise to exclude themselves from any market.  If they persist or blow you off then let them know that you will be taking your business elsewhere.  In the case of a retailer you might even consider keeping them apprised of the money you spend with their competitors so that they can see what effect their decision is having.  In the case of a bank sit down with the branch manager/president and inform them that you will be closing your account and why.  Make sure that they realize IT's decision has lost them your account and may lose them others.

Just my thoughts...


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## Arden (Jun 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by gwynarion _
> *We Mac users may be a minority, and a small one at that, but we are a very vocal and very persistent minority that has more clout than our numbers would seem to indicate.*


Great, we're either black or Jewish!    (No offense to any black people or any other Jews besides me who use this board, of course.)

Let's utilize our _chutzpah_ to make our minds known.


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## Pengu (Jun 18, 2003)

> As they have 95% of the market, and since many IT departments are too spineless to stand up to them, their constant wrecking of standards will eventually mean, that to use the internet, you need Windows.



But of course you need Windows for the internet! Bill Gates/Microsoft CREATED the internet, remember. Just before Apple went bankrupt because everyone realised that "you can't do anything on a Mac".



> I run into problems with Web sites using IE for Mac. I get messages that read, "This Web site requires Internet Explorer and Javascript to be turned on" or something like that.



Try setting your user-agent to MSIE for Windows in the Debug -> User Agent menu of Safari, and try the sites again.


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## pds (Jun 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Evil Ryu _
> *Just us lot on the macosx forums? Yeah, I reckon we can do it
> 
> Where to start? *



Easiest place really, with "myself"... or is that the hardest place...


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## Myke (Jun 19, 2003)

Pengu,

Where is this debug/user agent menu or are you just kidding. 

Also ...changing banks may be a doddle in the US but here its a nightmare. Plus I like my bank, actually, apart from its fondness for MS!

By the way, Mr K, i'm not overseas - you are!


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## pyroboy (Jun 19, 2003)

I just went to filemakerpro.com to purchase some software. I couldn't because there was a warning message that says, 





> The FileMaker Store does not support Safari Beta.



This is a company that is owned by Apple and it doesn't support Safari.

You can still navigate the site, but if this site doesn't work well with Safari, exactly how do you expect the rest of the world to support it?

Oh and trust me, I want the rest of the world to support it.


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## Arden (Jun 19, 2003)

Hopefully, even if the store doesn't support the beta, it will support the final release, which should come in about 4 days.


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## TommyWillB (Jun 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by gwynarion _
> *Inevitable and very welcome except for a one site that I must use it to access*  *


 This is exactly why this IS bad...

Do you think all of those sites that are IE only are suddenly going to start supporting Safari? No way... They are just going to use this as an excuse to stop supporting Macs.

This is not about personal web sites, or content sites... This is about your home banking and other Web applications that you MUST access... Without IE most of these will simply become unavailable to us.

This is bad... especially since Safari is still in its infancy.


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## TommyWillB (Jun 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by fryke _
> *Let's hope that the manhours go into VPC and Office 11:mac. *


* ME:*  I can't access your Web site from my Macintosh

*Support Agent:* I'm sorry sir, but we only support Macintoshes that are running Internet Explorer within Virtual PC.


Grrrrrrrrrrrr....

Just another friggin way to make us buy WinDoze...


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## pyroboy (Jun 19, 2003)

Perhaps we are thinking about this the wrong way. 

IE 5 is not the last version for the Mac, it is the last *free* version for the Mac.

MSN has included what amounts to IE 6 into MSN for OS X. 

The difference is that if you want to use IE 6, you need to either pay Microsoft $9.95 a month, or pay $79.95 a year, or pay $21.95 a month to get MSN for Mac as your ISP.

What Microsoft is doing is beginning software subscription services for consumer level software. What you could see is the start of an ugly trend where you have to rent the software from Microsoft every month to use it. IE might be first, but I would be willing to bet a similar system is being planned for Microsoft Office and even Windows OS. It just depends on how greedy Microsoft is when they set the price and how desperate we are to have the software in the first place.


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## TommyWillB (Jun 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by uoba _
> *...Again, some one else has pointed out that Microsoft cannot gain access system-level wise (as Apple obviously can)....*


Bull S#!t!!!

This is an open source'd based OS. Of course they can do exactly what Apple can do.

The only damn reason they are saying this about Apple it because it is true about them. This is nothing more than the pot is trying to deflect the grime on to the kettle.


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## Jason (Jun 19, 2003)

camino works with everything


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## TommyWillB (Jun 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Pengu _
> *But of course you need Windows for the internet! Bill Gates/Microsoft CREATED the internet, remember...*


 I thought Al gore created the Internet... And now that he's on our board he is going to boot all WinDoze machines off... Right?!?


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## TommyWillB (Jun 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pyroboy _
> *I just went to filemakerpro.com to purchase some software. I couldn't because there was a warning message that says,
> 
> This is a company that is owned by Apple and it doesn't support Safari...*


Hasn't Filemaker Inc. been seperate from Apple Inc for several years now?


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## toast (Jun 19, 2003)

It has. Claris has grown quite independent.


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## pyroboy (Jun 19, 2003)

Claris is long dead as a company.

All of the apps that made up Claris were brought in house a few years ago. That is why ClarisWorks is called AppleWorks. FileMaker was rolled off as a seperate company in hopes that it would thrive. Unfortunately, that company has been leeching red ink like gas out of my pants after a big bag of Taco Bell food. 

It is expected that Apple will roll FileMaker back into the company once again and join up with other Apple software like Final Cut Pro, iLife, and Apple Remote Desktop. Perhaps not the same group though...


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## gwynarion (Jun 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by TommyWillB _
> *Do you think all of those sites that are IE only are suddenly going to start supporting Safari? No way... They are just going to use this as an excuse to stop supporting Macs.
> 
> This is not about personal web sites, or content sites... This is about your home banking and other Web applications that you MUST access... Without IE most of these will simply become unavailable to us.*


As I said, there is only one site that I can only get to using IE and it is hardly a vital one.  It's not a banking site or anything else like that.  And at any rate the current version of IE will still work while I continue to lobby them to use more open standards.


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## Evil Ryu (Jun 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pyroboy _
> *I just went to filemakerpro.com to purchase some software. I couldn't because there was a warning message that says,
> 
> This is a company that is owned by Apple and it doesn't support Safari.
> *



That is pretty funny actually  

Surely Filemaker could modify their website so it works with Safari easily. I forced a windows user friend of mine to make all of his websites safari compatiable! Its just some of the tables. theyre dodgy in Safari... apparnelty


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## Arden (Jun 21, 2003)

What do you actually have to recode to make a site work in Safari?

I sure hope Microsoft doesn't get away with making all software subscription-based.  That would majorly blow.  Imagine, instead of plunking down US$600 for Adobe Photoshop, you had to pay $10/month to use it.  Sure, you can afford it, but you still have to pay that amount every month or you don't get to use Photoshop anymore.

Extended to the actual OS, that would probably be almost criminal.


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## toast (Jun 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arden _
> *What do you actually have to recode to make a site work in Safari?*


*

Clean up screwed scripts and certificates.*


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## hulkaros (Jun 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Jason _
> *camino works with everything  *



100% true!


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## Pengu (Jun 22, 2003)

> Imagine, instead of plunking down US$600 for Adobe Photoshop, you had to pay $10/month to use it.


Why would MS' decision to make their software subscription-based affect software made by Adobe. Or any other company for that matter? Just because a lot of silly people think Microsoft is the "way of the future" doesn't make it true.


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## uoba (Jun 22, 2003)

If Microsoft's subscription model proves to work (for Microsoft I mean), then undoubtedly other companies will follow suit. 

Saying this, as is quoted... I wouldn't mind paying $10 a month to use Photoshop, that means 5 years before I've forked out $600!


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## Evil Ryu (Jun 22, 2003)

Thats all too true... people do follow microsoft, even if its a nasty idea. Its like when Internet Explorer came out on the mac, I was shocked to why apple had followed them with this. Ok, so its a bad example, but there are lots of stupid things Microsoft have done and people followed like sheep.

Just imagine a world where apple were in microsoft's place! think of how clean and shiny it would be...

Theres a point, if Apple were in Microsoft's position, do you think everything would be all screwy like Microsoft? would it be better or worse?


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## Pengu (Jun 22, 2003)

But what some people don't seem to understand is, that it's not 1998 any more. Organisations, businesses, governments, people are all starting to realise that microsoft isn't the only way. But they are also learning to look for alternatives.

Suppose the microsoft business model works. Then say, Adobe follows suit and Photoshop becomes subscription based. Ok, so i don't want to have to keep paying (I doub't it would be $10/month for a $600+ app) for something i use. Oh wait, that's right. In todays world there are OPTIONS. Hmm. What about macromedia. or corel. or what about the FREE alternatives, like the GIMP? Oh, wait. sorry. It doesn't say Microsoft, and it doesn't say Photoshop, so it must be cr*p.

It helps to think every so often.
It also helps not being a sheep.


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## Dris (Jun 23, 2003)

As far as all of those retarded banking sites and others that choose only to support one browser, I'm hoping that the accessibility laws that the government has been throwing out left and right will eventually apply to them.  I mean, when it gets to the point that you can't even get to your own money without going through MS, the government needs to step in, bitch slap some higher-ups, and tell them that IE isn't the only browser around.


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## uoba (Jun 23, 2003)

On the nose, Dris... I couldn't have put it better myself.

Concerning alternatives, in theory, having the choice and freedom to to choose an alternative is great, but in reality we are dealing with peoples time, and that, as any business will tell you, is the most costly of expenses. The majority of people will go with the flow because they just don't have the time to even consider alternatives (unless there is a serious flaw in the current setup).

A design studio with 20 designers are not going to jump ship from Photoshop because they have to pay subscription for a great and essential product. The price would be minimal compared to time spent by those 20, to train up and get through the initial learning period of a new piece of software.

And, unfortunately, this would be the case particularly when considering a new OS. Okay, so there are organisations, as you mentioned that have started to realise the potential of alternatives (particularly OS's), but these are mainly governmental organisations (plus, the alternatives always seem to be a Windows looking distro of Linux!) 

With IE (was this what the thread was about  ) people don't need much more from browser than is alread offered. So why change. Thankfully, Mac users are generally an uneasy lot and are more willing than most to try alternatives (because we are accustomed to already doing so by choosing the Mac OS coupled with the fact that Apple make it easy to do so).


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## dlloyd (Jun 23, 2003)

Amen!


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