# The french summed up



## kendall (Mar 18, 2003)

i ran across this picture and think it does it nicely. 







honestly, what the hell are they thinking?






incase you dont realize, that is french president jacques chirac and satan, er, saddam. 

please, all this anti war rhetoric is what got the frenches asses pummled in wwII and had them crying to us to save and preserve their way of life.  

as much as i wouldnt mind seeing saddam do it to them again, i fear him lobbing a nuke or chemical weapon at some decent country such as the US, UK or Italy first.

no, war isnt good but it might just beat the alternative.


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## Ugg (Mar 19, 2003)

So why didn't you post the pic of Rummy and Saddam?  

What's with this anti-French rhetoric anyway?  Ok, Toast is a little pushy but he obviously knows a good deal about history, I've certainly learned something from his posts although I may not agree with them all.  

GW is choosing to change the world and he like the rest of don't have a clue as to what is going to happen after the ashes settle, but whatever it is none of us are going to wish that it took place.   Whether we are American, French, Iraqi, Israeli, etc. Tomorrow will be a black mark in the history of the world.


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## fryke (Mar 19, 2003)

Ugg: The US regime has dictated that 'french fries' are now called 'freedom fries'. Anti-French rethoric seems to be part of their, well, attitude right now.


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## g3joel (Mar 19, 2003)

Ugh, yet another display of American arrogance. What is it with you guys.


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## themacko (Mar 19, 2003)

Apparantly we're all ignorant. 

But let me just add something.  It's not like we (Americans) have just started making fun of the French due to recent events, we have always made fun of the French.  So at least we're consistant in our ignorance.  Anyone remember Pepé Le Pew?


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## Darkshadow (Mar 19, 2003)

*ahem* not _all_ Americans think that way, thank you!


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## JetwingX (Mar 19, 2003)

ok i have one thing to say. French Fries wern't even invented in france. it's just a stupind nick name we gave the


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## hulkaros (Mar 19, 2003)

Americans being ignorants or anything bad and the same applies to French people but I'm 100% sure, some people around here are damn ignorant 

It seems that they really live, each and every day, based on this saying:
"Ignorance is bliss"

Go ahead and live some more... And I think they know who they are...  

And yes maybe I am one of them


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## Jason (Mar 19, 2003)

not a chance in hell i'm buying a freedom tickler!


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## Ugg (Mar 19, 2003)

Hmmm, I don't know Jason, I sort of like the idea myself.  A French tickler just doesn't have the right ring to it but a freedom tickler, that sounds like something you'd use to free someone of their puritannical inhibitions.  I think there's a future in this idea


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## marz (Mar 19, 2003)

Nearly half of those that showed up to vote in November 2000 voted for the guy that can't pronounce nuclear correctly and is holding the US and the world hostage at the moment.

Patriotism = Nationalism, Nationalism is how Hitler rose to power.

Many American's don't see the similarities, as many German's probably didn't before it was too late either.

I'm not comparing Bushie to Adolf, just the reactions of the citizens to the allegiance of their nation state.

No American should be blindly following George W. Bush in to battle without a clear understanding of the reasons and the consequences that will surely follow.

Flame me if you must, but I'm ashamed of many of my fellow citizens for their lack of respect for humanity.


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## kendall (Mar 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by marz _
> *Nearly half of those that showed up to vote in November 2000 voted for the guy that can't pronounce nuclear correctly and is holding the US and the world hostage at the moment.
> 
> Patriotism = Nationalism, Nationalism is how Hitler rose to power.
> ...



yeah, saddam, who has killed his own relatives for differing opinions, exterminated thousands of his own people and who is now currently lining them up as human shields has such a great respect for humanity.   

go home!


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## doemel (Mar 19, 2003)

_go home!  _

That seems to be the universal answer to Anericans criticising their own government or fellow Americans. It's really just a lack of ability to discuss things like grown up sufficiently open minded people.

Consider that a lot of Europeans are alienated by American patriotism/nationalism because the last time we saw a major nation pledge allegiance to the flag on a regular basis and a strong obsession with symbols of power, national identity etc. were the years preceding 1945. I'm not saying today's US equals Nazi Germany but merely pointing out there are common traits that Europeans feel alienated about.
Yes, I have a Swiss flag as my avatar and yes, I have even served my country. I'm by no means nationalistic though, the flag is more of a fashion thingy and I think the Swiss army is obsolete in today's Europe. An efficient rescue/aid force for humanitarian purposes would be a much better purpose for the billions of Swiss Francs we spend on our "costume club" [Peter Bodenmann, sometime in the 90's].


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## JetwingX (Mar 19, 2003)

this isn't the united states problem, it's the United Nations problem

Afghanistan on the other hand _was_ our problem because they directly attacked us (or at least people in side that they were supporting)


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## Arden (Mar 19, 2003)

While I oppose the renaming of ordinary items like "french fries" and "French toast" to "freedom etc." (french fries are actually called that because of how they are cut), I also oppose the appeasement France insists on making to jackasses who want to destroy them.  I also oppose things like naming the newest elementary school in town "Freedom Elementary" (nothing to do with France, but rather 9/11), but that's what it's called.


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## mr. k (Mar 19, 2003)

> That seems to be the universal answer to Anericans criticising their own government or fellow Americans. It's really just a lack of ability to discuss things like grown up sufficiently open minded people.



Not to say anything against you doemel, I almost agree with your point, but - in general the american people are perfectly capable and willing to 'discuss things like grown up and openly minded people.'  I don't think that it is fair to judge a people you haven't been living amongst for a very long time.  Sure, I think that america has some very different values then other european countries, and many other countries not in europe.  Since our birth a little more then 200 years ago, we have been a proud, strong people.  Not to say that america is better then any other countries; but many americans DO think that america is the better country.  I'm sure that many canadians think that their native land of canada is the better state in the world too, the fact is that most people grow up in one country, travel a little, but in general don't have a very good world view.
Maybe it's a little of your 'foreign arrogance' (have you lived in the US for an extended period of time? If not I dub your above quoted statement as foreign arrogance) that leads you to believe those things about the american people.  Or mabye the general americans are like that.  I have not been out of my home state (or my home city for that matter) enough to be able to generalize the whole american people.  I don't think it is possible to generalize about any extended group of people at all, there will always be a percent that is different.  It's like that with the members of this board, there are many americans who support the war, many who don't, and many in the middle.  Im sure even in Nazi germany there were people on the other side of the argument who weren't comfortable with the things done by their government.


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## boi (Mar 19, 2003)

I say let the french do what they think is best for their country. If it is right for them, then they will prosper; if not, then we'll see what happens. 
also, i think mr. K's statement is good for all of the "anti-America, no matter what" thinkers out there. people claim that we have a narrow view of the world, yet they stereotype us.


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## Ugg (Mar 19, 2003)

mr. K, I agree that it is difficult to generalize about Americans.  We are one of the most heterogenous societies in the world.  Our citizens come from the 4 corners of the world as do our inventors, statesmen, business leaders and doctors.  

One thing you don't address is the pervasiveness of American influence.  Hollywood's products are one of the most influencing of all our exports and can be seen almost anywhere in the world.  How many foreign films have you seen in the last year?  Our food, clothing, music, universities have greatly influenced the lives of billions of people.  No one nation has had such a huge impact on the lives of so many people.  Yet for all our dominant status in the world we know so little about those we so heavily influence.  

It is so easy to dismiss those whom we know little or nothing about and we do so at our own peril.  You accuse Doemel of unfairly criticizing us because he has not lived amongst us for very long.  I heartily disagree with that.  Doemel, whether he lives in Toronto, La Confederation Helvatica, Nigeria, or Shanghai has more knowledge of us than we will ever have of him and his home solely because America has reached every corner of the world.  When the Oscars take place this weekend you can bet your  bootie that the world is going to take note of who wins and will debate the validity of the outcome.  

Although it is one thing to view America from afar, they nonetheless have at least an idea of what life is like here in the US.  Can you even begin to make any statements about what life is like in Switzerland, much less Toronto?  

I'm not attacking you personally, rather this increasing American paranoia that is showing up everywhere.  From Freedom fries to having WWI and WWII american soldiers being disinterred and brought back to the US.  What is with this country?  Can't we understand that other countries have different backgrounds, that they have some very recent ideas of what war is, what terrorism is?  Germany, France and the UK still bear the scars of the terrorism of the 70s and 80s.  They know what it is like to be attacked by terrorists.  

Doing a quick calculation on my wall map it looks like Berlin is about 1700 miles from Baghdad.  Would you want someone using depleted uraniun weapons 1700 miles from where  you live?  There lives are much more at risk than ours are, therefore we should be able to listen to their criticisms and accept them as valid if for no other reason than they have the potential to be affected by what happens.


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## doemel (Mar 19, 2003)

_Not to say anything against you doemel, I almost agree with your point, but - in general the american people are perfectly capable and willing to 'discuss things like grown up and openly minded people.'_

OK, I have to officially apologize here, my wording turned out more generalizing than I intended. I just wanted to address those Americans that do show that if-you-don't-like-it-here-get-the-hell-lost attitude I have come across so many times on discussion groups. I guess it was just once too often this time that made me not consider my words twice.


_I don't think that it is fair to judge a people you haven't been living amongst for a very long time.  Sure, I think that america has some very different values then other european countries, and many other countries not in europe.  Since our birth a little more then 200 years ago, we have been a proud, strong people.  Not to say that america is better then any other countries; but many americans DO think that america is the better country.  I'm sure that many canadians think that their native land of canada is the better state in the world too, the fact is that most people grow up in one country, travel a little, but in general don't have a very good world view._

I totally agree with that. Having travelled quite a bit I both grew more critical and fond of Switzerland, my home country. Canadians do have pride in their country just as people all around the globe and I believe that all of them have their particular, justifiable reasons to do so.


_Maybe it's a little of your 'foreign arrogance' (have you lived in the US for an extended period of time? If not I dub your above quoted statement as foreign arrogance) that leads you to believe those things about the american people.  Or mabye the general americans are like that.  I have not been out of my home state (or my home city for that matter) enough to be able to generalize the whole american people.  I don't think it is possible to generalize about any extended group of people at all, there will always be a percent that is different.  It's like that with the members of this board, there are many americans who support the war, many who don't, and many in the middle.  Im sure even in Nazi germany there were people on the other side of the argument who weren't comfortable with the things done by their government._

I did never intend to judge the American people as a whole. If you check on my post history on this site you'll see that I have kept that intent most of the time. The times I didn't I got carried away by emotions.
There were indeed a lot of Germans that did not approve of their regime at the time of  WW2. A lot of those who spoke out and acted against it were humiliated, tortured and assassinated.


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## doemel (Mar 19, 2003)

_also, i think mr. K's statement is good for all of the "anti-America, no matter what" thinkers out there. people claim that we have a narrow view of the world, yet they stereotype us. _

Again, if you look at my posting history you'll realize that I mostly criticize the US government. I am well aware of the heterogeneous composition of the American people. I don't think I qualify as anti-American by criticizing your government and certain aspects of the image that the US projects to the rest of the world. I have American friends, how could I hate your people?


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## edX (Mar 19, 2003)

i think doemel was trying just a little too hard to generalize rather than risk personal attack by stating things in what he thought of kendall for making such a statement. 

and yea, it has always been a tactic of certain americans to act like those of us who disagree with our country's actions and leaders don't belong here. while this approach was at its peak during the days of Nixon and McCarthy, it is still drudged up from time to time by those who cannot handle criticism.  i find kendall's posts in this thread to be insensitive and really more unamerican than disagreeing with our leaders. to insinuate that others are not entitled to differences of opinions violates our Bill of Rights, one of the cornerstones of our Freedoms, is much more frightening to me than everybody in the world not standing and cheering for war.


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## Dime5150 (Mar 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ugg _
> *
> 
> It is so easy to dismiss those whom we know little or nothing about and we do so at our own peril.  You accuse Doemel of unfairly criticizing us because he has not lived amongst us for very long.  I heartily disagree with that.  Doemel, whether he lives in Toronto, La Confederation Helvatica, Nigeria, or Shanghai has more knowledge of us than we will ever have of him and his home solely because America has reached every corner of the world.  When the Oscars take place this weekend you can bet your  bootie that the world is going to take note of who wins and will debate the validity of the outcome.
> ...


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