# Is Apple dying?



## Veljo (Mar 3, 2002)

I mean does anybody feel that they are? I saw an article that IBM are thinking of buying Apple.

I really wish that Apple would listen to their customers. I mean, they are probably the best computer company in the world, but the truth remains that they do not listen. How can they pick up on their sales? It's so simple! Keep the Apple Centres but distribute computers and Apple software in other major electrical stores worldwide: this is why they lose out so much. First computer buys don't travel to a specialised computer store but rather visit an electrical store and listen to the salesmen there and buy a PC. Yes. A PC. Having a choice between the new iMac and a new IBM for example is not a hard choice and would win big for Apple. Hmmm...what looks better? What OS looks better? Lets go for the Mac. Or if there isn't a Mac there lets go for the PC because we don't know that Macs exist because they're hiding in Apple Centres which are too far away to even travel to.

Right click and scroll button. One button mouses were good back in the ol' days, but now they're seen as a major flaw for many users of Macs at my school. They are constantly being criticised about their one button and I wish Apple would address this. Sure I've been told that Mac OS X has multi-button support, but the button line means that people have to go out and buy a Microsoft IntelliMouse just to get the buttons they want. Adding more buttons doesn't confuse people, just gives more functionality to everything and makes life a hell of a lot easier.

And no floppy drivers? Sure the iMac might come with an external drive but it's still SO DAMB STUPID!

Anybody else have anything to say?


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## Alexandert (Mar 3, 2002)

NO FLOPPYS PLEASE!


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## simX (Mar 3, 2002)

veljo:  I'm sorry, but Apple is not dying.

I'm sorry you haven't heard that the iBook AND the TiBook have been very popular laptops.  I'm sorry you haven't heard about Henrico County in Richmond, Virginia buying 23000 iBooks from Apple.  I'm sorry you haven't heard about Maine buying 30000 iBooks from Apple to give to every seventh and eighth grader in the state.

I'm sorry you haven't heard that the new iMac received 150000 preorders in the first three weeks of available preordering (when the new iMacs were STILL not available).  Oh, and how about Apple selling 125000 iPods?  And how about Apple opening 27 successful retail stores in the U.S. so far?

Apple doesn't listen to its customers?  Last time I checked, people wanted a G4 processor, a flat-panel display, and a SuperDrive in the iMac, and as far as I know, Apple gave it to them.  Last I heard, people wanted combo drives in their TiBooks, and I think Apple gave it to them.

Oh, and last time I checked, Apple had about 4.3 BILLION DOLLARS stashed away in the bank.

And about that "article" about IBM considering buying Apple: it's called a "rumor".  And that one shouldn't even be classified as a rumor, because it's totally unfounded.  I would like to know where you read this "article".

Last but not least, about your argument about floppy drives: Apple has not had them in their computers for 4 years now, and has still been successful.  Wow, haven't you heard of CD-RW drives, or e-mailing, or zip drives, or even DVD burners?  Floppies are totally unreliable, and can hold MAX 1.44 MEGAbytes of space.  I think it'd be SOOO practical to backup my 20 GB hard drive on those babies!

Have I made myself clear?  The only reason I adopt this attitude is because I really get annoyed when people come in saying that Apple is going down the drain (something that critics have been saying for years, but has yet to happen), when Apple actually has an impressive lineup of hardware AND software.  I really hate it when people seize on rumors just to add to their argument.  And I really, really hate it when people are so totally misinformed about something, yet they still think they know everything.


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## RacerX (Mar 3, 2002)

I think we need to look at this as two different subjects: is Apple having problems and your problems with Apple.

We are in a recession that has hit the computer industry harder than any other area. Companies that had stock up in the range of $80 have dropped below $10 currently (both Sun and Gateway are good examples), but Apple saw a much less dramatic change (even considering that their stock had split not long before things went south for the industry) than any other company except Microsoft. In fact watching the prices of PC makers stock over the last year, Apple has been hardly effected by the problems of the industry, and is in a better position than it was at the beginning of the recession relative to other PC companies. Also Apple has long kept very large cash reserves that no other company could deal with if they tried to take over Apple. Basically, what ever Apple alone is worth... add another $4 billion on top of that. I'm guessing that you were not around Apple during that dark time of the mid 90's, when Apple had 7 consecutive losing quarters. No other computer company has (or could have) survived that type of record, and in the last couple quarters of that period Apple was still able to buy NeXT for $430 million.  If Apple was at deaths door at that time, than I would have to say it could not be further from it now.

That having been said, Apple tried leaving the job of selling Macs to PC resellers... which I call _PC reseller_ for a reason, they could not (or would not) resell Macs. What you are asking is that people who do not believe in Macs as a platform be asked to sell Macs to people who are new to computers. That doesn't work. If a person doesn't own a Mac, how can they sell one to anyone else? 

The mouse question, you are aware that the multi-button mouse predates Apple's single button design (which Apple holds the patent on). A majority of PC users (actual users, not people who are techies) never use more than one mouse button. Given that, it can not be a _major flaw_, because that would require a majority of users to miss that feature. Same with the scroll wheel/button which is still not on a majority of functioning PCs today. Honestly, only people who explore their systems find many of the cool features of Windows, and for the majority of PC users the environment outside of a couple applications is completely foreign to them on their own systems. Ask 10 average PC users how much memory is installed on a given Windows system, and 9 would not be able to answer. That is the reality that Microsoft knows is out there, which is the reason for why Windows XP is the way it is.

And floppies... are you kidding?


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## gerbick (Mar 3, 2002)

Apple dying!?  BAH!

they better not.  I just bought more stock!


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## RacerX (Mar 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by gerbick _
> *they better not.  I just bought more stock! *



Hopefully you did it a couple days ago before the stock jumped up almost $2.


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## tagliatelle (Mar 3, 2002)

If I see the appletree in my garden yes.


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## Alexandert (Mar 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by gerbick _
> *Apple dying!?  BAH!
> 
> they better not.  I just bought more stock! *



Yeah! BAH!


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## serpicolugnut (Mar 3, 2002)

You're new here, and seem genuine, so I'll cut you some slack.

The fact is simple. Apple is one of the healthiest computer companies in business at the moment. They are healthier than HP, Compaq, even IBM. Hell, the only PC company I can think of that isn't hurting right now is Dell.

So perhaps the question you should be asking is whether the entire PC industry (sans Dell) is going to go out of business.

The fact is morons have been saying Apple is dying for the last 20 years, regardless of how many quarters they post profits, regarless of how well their products are sellilng, regardless of how high their stock price is, and regardless of how much money they have stashed away in the bank.

How many PC companies has Apple outlived? Remember Packard Bell? What about Canon? They stopped making PCs. eMachines is in serious financial trouble. Gateway is bleeding money. IBM has been rumored to be dropping their entire PC division, and sticking with servers and mainframes. 

As for the floppy issue - yeah, on the PC side, floppies are still used by the technical luddites. But apart from transferring a MS Word file, they are completely and utterly useless, and unreliable. Most PCs now ship with a CDRW or a Zip drive, so it's just a matter of time before slow witted PC users outlive the floppy too.


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## Matrix Agent (Mar 3, 2002)

May I add that for many people, they do nopt wish to see Apple conquer the market in the way MS did. I would be perfectly happy to see Macs own 10% of the market, and get the respect they deserve from all.

Unfortunately, Apple works in an industry that does not honor innovation, it simply steals it. Wait 4 months after Apple debutes anything, and Mike Dell will be running to the nearest TV studio to tell the world he invented it. (ie. Airport and LCD Montiors.)

Even more unfortunate is that most consumers literally buy this FUD. If Apple can overcome this, and prove to the majority of the market that Apple Computer is a true innovator, with funcational ideas that are more than pretty designs, Apple will be around for a very, very, very, long time.


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## bighairydog (Mar 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Veljo _
> *One button mouses were good back in the ol' days, but now they're seen as a major flaw for many users of Macs at my school. They are constantly being criticised about their one button and I wish Apple would address this.*


Two words - Control-click...

It's not exactly rocket science is it now? If someone can't cope with using keyboard modifier keys instead of another button, then they shouldn't be using a computer - back to post-it notes and snail mail for them.

Bernie     )


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## AdmiralAK (Mar 3, 2002)

Veljo take a step back, examine the source of the news or rumors, then make up your mind.  Stay a while in these forums, read and interact like you have done.  Apple is not dying and no one is bying them out.  Thats just a fact.

As for floppies...no way in heck.  THey are old and useless for our age.


Admiral


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## Dak RIT (Mar 3, 2002)

Veljo, the only thing I can think when I read your post is that you've been in a coma for the past 5 years.  I remember hearing people say that 5 years ago... almost exact words.  They've all shut up now.

One thing people praise Apple for consistently is how they *do* listen... MacOS X is a fantastic example of this.

Apple is already overwhelmed with the number of orders it's receiving for the new iMac... it can't come even close to keeping up, and sales have far surpassed Apple's and analysts best expectations.

Some people are idiots... namely here your friends at school.  People can find just about anything they want to criticize something for, and generally people 16 years old are exceptionally good at being experts about something they know nothing about.  The single button mouse that comes standard is an advantage!  The Mac is designed to work more efficiently with a single button than Windows with 2.  However if you absolutely must have two-buttons and wheel, OS X supports it.  Life's a hell of lot easier with 1 button.  And *that* there is considerably proof for, not a 16 year olds opinion.

Floppy drive?  You mean you *still* use those?  Even PC people I know that complained years ago when the iMac first dropped the floppy don't use floppies anymore.  I've had fun using them as coasters though, since my Mac doesn't make as many CDs coasters as some friends PCs.

Flaming,
Dak


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## bighairydog (Mar 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Dak RIT _
> *generally people 16 years old are exceptionally good at being experts about something they know nothing about.*


Claws away pussycat...  (LOL ;o) I'm sure Veljo was just trying to stimulate some discussion (the thread was phrased as a question), and just didn't realise what pleasantly rambunctious people we here can be.

Bernie     )

(Flame Flame!)


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## RacerX (Mar 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by bighairydog _
> *(the thread was phrased as a question)*



You mean like: _I'd like to take "opinions of uninformed PC users" for the block, Alex._

Remember to answer this post in the form of a question.


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## Matrix Agent (Mar 3, 2002)

*ring

Me: What is a floppy Alex?

Alex: Correct!

Me: No Alex, really, I don't know.


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## Alexandert (Mar 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Matrix Agent _
> **ring
> 
> Me: What is a floppy Alex?
> ...


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## twyg (Mar 3, 2002)

Apple not listening to their customers? I think not...

Sorry, but I've noticed that the things most people have been complaining about have been noted, and even repaired by apple. 

Let's look at OS X. It's a stellar example of a new method of Apple taking care to note what people really want. 

How many of us have complained about spring loaded folders? supposedly happening.
Speed. Splendid re-construction of the mach-o kernel and other major repairs increasing speeds 2x and sometimes more. (Of course somethings never increased, but I digress)
Stupid driver problems. Apple has actually gone proactive and instead of relying on the third party I seem to note that more and more we see Apple actually working with or taking over the driver creation process. Now that is really important to me. Apple always had a hands off approach.
Opening the doors to developers. While more of a marketing move, it bodes well for others than Apple. Now we can go to people who we know will listen, and they can make programs to do things that we really want to do. SimX, martinatkinson, and whitesaint in particular thank you. You are exemplary developers. Should Apple continue to nuture the "little guys" in this way alone they can make a lot of staying power for themselves. 

Interesting side note. For the longest time I've been going to CompUSA, and we've all got wonderous stories about that...  However, this visit was a little different. Normally I end up being the "unofficial" support guy quite by accident. Some lady will be explaining a problem, and the sales dude says "well that's a mac" and I've been there to pick up the pieces. (And I get a new client perhaps not so consequently) This trip was a little different though. I see the new iMac in person. (Which was the first time!!! Awesome!) and a lady is trying to buy one of the two iMacs left. (They had 50 on hand as of Feb. 1 Apple isn't dead yet) Much to my amazement the guy was sticking to his guns. She asked if a PC would be better. He said "No. This is really your best option for what you're describing." 

What what? I look over to see a dude with a white apple shirt, and black slacks. Nice! not a CompUSA monkey, just a enthusiast like me, wait is that... yeah! it's a CompUSA name tag. Well, 1 hour later I find this out.

Due to popular request, and due to CompUSA getting complaints from Mac users, Apple decided to put it's own people in place. The guy came in as a "secret shopper" and asked about things like "What's the best for video editing, the best for Music Recording, Mixing, and the like?" He was immediatly turned to a Sony Viao. Well that's all good, but not where they should be placing a customer when the dual 500 G4 was right next to the Viao. 

There is no longer a CompUSA PC hardware tech allowed in the "Mac area" unless it's to play. This dude handles all sales of Mac equipment, peripherals, and software. 

I've been writing Apple forever telling them of my poor experience on the CompUSA front in particular. On this note alone, they've hooked me even further. 

I think Apple is in it for the long haul. We may not take the market share above 10%, but damnnit, we're here to stay!


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## Matrix Agent (Mar 3, 2002)

I found your "side note" to be rather long.


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## twyg (Mar 4, 2002)

hey, details man, it's all in the details...


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## anrkngl (Mar 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by serpicolugnut _
> *The fact is simple. Apple is one of the healthiest computer companies in business at the moment. They are healthier than HP, Compaq, even IBM. Hell, the only PC company I can think of that isn't hurting right now is Dell.
> *



Actually, Dell is technically hurting, but nobody seems to notice. If you calculate their current ratio (Current (liquid) assets/Current liabilities), you find it is 1.07:1, compared to Apple's 3.34:1. Now, the generalised Current ratio average is 2:1, by which Dell falls short by 53%, and Apple exceeds by 167%.

Who's not in trouble on the pc side?


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## changomarcelo (Mar 5, 2002)

Actually, I don´t understand Apple's bussines plans. I agree with every word you say. It seems that Apple's boss is a 60 y.o. fat man, hard minded and antiquated.



> _Originally posted by Veljo _
> *I mean does anybody feel that they are? I saw an article that IBM are thinking of buying Apple.
> 
> I really wish that Apple would listen to their customers. I mean, they are probably the best computer company in the world, but the truth remains that they do not listen. How can they pick up on their sales? It's so simple! Keep the Apple Centres but distribute computers and Apple software in other major electrical stores worldwide: this is why they lose out so much. First computer buys don't travel to a specialised computer store but rather visit an electrical store and listen to the salesmen there and buy a PC. Yes. A PC. Having a choice between the new iMac and a new IBM for example is not a hard choice and would win big for Apple. Hmmm...what looks better? What OS looks better? Lets go for the Mac. Or if there isn't a Mac there lets go for the PC because we don't know that Macs exist because they're hiding in Apple Centres which are too far away to even travel to.
> ...


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## Veljo (Mar 6, 2002)

Sorry, I guess you guys took me the wrong way. I didn't mean to come across the way I did. I have always thought that Apple were a great company, in fact their my favourite computer company, and once Mac OS X was released and they started making really cool looking computers I thought they were making record profits and they were (and still are I'm sure). The real reason for making this topic was that I was concerned and perhaps a little worried when I saw an article that said that IBM was buying Apple, and my friend informed me that Apple was dying when in fact this is far from the truth.

Once again, sorry, it won't happen again. After all, we all love Apple don't we? APPLE, APPLE...


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## ksuther (Mar 6, 2002)

You friend also probably happened to be an idiot too right?


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## simX (Mar 6, 2002)

changomarcelo:  Read the rest of the posts before responding to the first one.  'nuf said.  I'd flame you, but I don't want to.

Veljo:  I forgive you , but you should know that rumors are just that... rumors.  If you see something on macrumors.com, macosrumors.com, or thinksecret.com, or any other rumors site you may go to, PLEASE take it with a grain of salt.

And some things are just downright silly to believe.  Don't believe any "buyout" rumors.  There has always been Apple buyout rumors from critics of Apple, because they are all idiots who think that Apple sucks, even though they are totally ignoring the fantastic software and hardware that Apple is producing (Apple is only somewhat lacking on its PowerMac line, although the latest update is very welcome -- the iBook, TiBook, and new iMac are all awesome deals).  There were rumors of Sony buying Apple, Disney buying Apple, and now IBM buying Apple.  They will never come true until Apple begins to lose massive amounts of money and they lose their cushion of money in the bank.  $4.3 billion in the bank is a force to contend with, especially when dealing with buyouts.

So basically what that rant was trying to say is this:

Don't always take articles from rumor sites at face value.  Don't expect them to come true.  And right now, buyout rumors are just downright silly since Apple is in a great position.


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## TommyWillB (Mar 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Matrix Agent _
> **ring
> 
> Me: What is a floppy Alex?
> ...


Isn't a floppy something that existed before recordable CD's and held 1/500th as much?


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## RacerX (Mar 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by TommyWillB _
> *Isn't a floppy something that existed before recordable CD's and held 1/500th as much? *



Actually I think a floppy was something that could hold a bootable version of the Mac OS (through Mac OS 8), which in turn was something that Windows was never able to do.


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## swizcore (Mar 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Matrix Agent _
> *May I add that for many people, they do nopt wish to see Apple conquer the market in the way MS did. I would be perfectly happy to see Macs own 10% of the market, and get the respect they deserve from all. *



Thats what Ive been screaming for years on this topic.


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## Matrix Agent (Mar 8, 2002)

Glad we agree. I'm not sure I could use a Mac if they had more than 20% market share. They would get caught up doing stupid things, comparable to keeping the floppy drive in the computer. They would be doomed to creating mediocere to satisfying the uninformed wishes of their new customers.

That would be a sad, sad, world.


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