# Mac OS X 10.3 Panther!



## AppleWatcher (Oct 1, 2002)

Is there anyone with news, build rumors, screenshots, sounds, etc???

C'mon insiders! Give us some news!


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## BBenve (Oct 1, 2002)

" Is there anyone with news, build rumors, screenshots, sounds, etc???

C'mon insiders! Give us some news! "

When we do...we re louzy people who shares "secret" and  everyone blame us of not being able to shut up....we get censored ...and we  get a lot of insult....and also...we take risk as well...when we don't  you guys ask for info.....

Sorry..but you guys need to decide if you want us to tellyou stuff or not...and when you take a decision..please stick with it...


Thank you


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## onegoodpenguin (Oct 1, 2002)

This is a rumor site.  Feel free to post news on upcoming products.


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## AppleWatcher (Oct 1, 2002)

Yeah I agree with you, penguin


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## Rhino_G3 (Oct 1, 2002)

10.2 just came out...  you'll be waiting a LONG time to see anything regarding 10.3


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## JetwingX (Oct 2, 2002)

probably about a year

for now just wait for 10.2 updates ((><))


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## adambyte (Oct 2, 2002)

I believe you've got a bad case or premature posting.


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## terran74 (Oct 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rhino_G3 _
> *10.2 just came out...  you'll be waiting a LONG time to see anything regarding 10.3 *



7 months tops until 10.3 ships.

Apple releases major updates to the shipping retail package every 6 to 7 months after it has shipped.

10.1 came out in September 2001 after 10.0 came out in March 2001.

10.4 is the one that will take a long time to wait for.  Possibly January 2004 and it will be a full upgrade and not a free update.


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## fryke (Oct 2, 2002)

Panther will be a pay-upgrade. It's planned to appear in March 2003.

There aren't currently any builds of Panther floating around, mainly because ADC Select and Premier members haven't yet gotten their hands on any.

Early December will show the first pictures of changes.

And about those people that are shouting "If you are ADC you are NDA and doing something illegal if you tell us, or you're NOT ADC and are pirating illegaly." - Please accept that this forum is called Mac News & Rumours Discussion, and that ANY real information ANY rumour site (this one, too) is getting its hands on should NOT have leaked to the public in general.


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## serpicolugnut (Oct 3, 2002)

According to Schiller, Apple usually follows a pattern of releasing a major free upgrade after a paid upgrade - ie, 9.0 was $99, 9.1/2 was free (s/h), 10.0 was $129, 10.1 was free (s/h). 10.2 was $129, so 10.3 should be free, except for shipping and handling.

I'm not as anxious for the next release as I was 10.2. I guess that's a testimate to how good 10.2 is - it delivers about 90% of what I wanted from my Macintosh OS.


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## fryke (Oct 3, 2002)

10.1 was a 'pay-upgrade' whose price was taken down because Apple admitted that 10.0 wasn't all that good. They didn't want to hurt early adopters too much. But as you're saying, too, 10.2 is a good full version. Panther will be the next full upgrade. There will be others for free, and Panther might even be dubbed 10.4 or 10.5, because Apple may want to name a smaller update 10.3, but Panther is will be a full upgrade like Jaguar was.

The anticipation of Panther will also get higher once we know about the feature set. Jaguar wasn't really anticipated until we knew about it, right?


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## nichrome (Oct 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by fryke _
> *10.1 was a 'pay-upgrade' *


No, it was not. Apple specifically instructed retailers to give it away free. Apple's own retail locations gave it away free. Most retail locations allowed you to burn as many copies to CD-R as you needed.


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## Krevinek (Oct 4, 2002)

10.1 *WAS* a 20$ upgrade until some massive backlash from the community reached Apple.

Once the backlash had started, THEN Apple shipped copies to retailers. Stores were originally never planned to carry 10.1 except for the full version.


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## rharder (Oct 4, 2002)

I have what I guess amounts to a pre-beta of 10.3. 

I think Apple's going to have a Bluetooth keyboard and mouse because the System Pref panel for the keyboard and mouse have a dimmed out Establish Connection button with that funny bluetooth symbol.

It looks like many more applications will be Rendezvous enabled: Address Book, iPhoto, iTunes. Too bad not iMovie or iDVD, but I guess those aren't library-oriented programs like iPhoto and iTunes are.

Finder windows are more aware of files being added to them from the BSD layer (like the terminal)--finally.

iChat's already been improved, but I wonder if they'll release that as a separate download before 10.3. I hope so.

Apple Data Detectors are back! For those who don't remember, ADD lets you select some text, right click (or control-click, whatever) and have some ADD's that do some pattern matching and present a menu based on that. For instance, hilite a paragraph with an address for instance, and you could get two contextual menu items such as Add to Address Book or Map with Sherlock or whatever.

It's not any faster yet, but give 'em a break we're basically talking about vaporware here.

-Rob


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## fryke (Oct 5, 2002)

There are not yet any builds of Panther. Plus ADD is back in Mac OS X ever since... Hmm... NeXTStep or something. They're simply called 'Services'.


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## rharder (Oct 5, 2002)

Well stomp on frogs and shove a crowbar up my nose.  (A Garfield-ism) I guess I was making that up.

Though I don't think ADD has made it back in OS X yet, and certainly Services is not it, though it could be where it finally ends up. Why isn't the Services menu in all Contextual Menus yet?

-Rob


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## nichrome (Oct 6, 2002)

For what it's worth, Services were in the context menu in, like, one or two dev builds of Jaguar.

And no, Services and ADD are not the same. At all. ADD detects data types and assigns them to task categories accordingly, while Services just handle data when initialized by the user (either by sending data to an app or by receiving data, processing it and then sending it back).


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## rharder (Oct 6, 2002)

Well, I'd sure like to see ADD come back. If y'all are interested, as I am, it does no good to mope about here. Go tell Apple: http://www.apple.com/macosx/feedback

-Rob


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## terran74 (Oct 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Krevinek _
> *10.1 *WAS* a 20$ upgrade until some massive backlash from the community reached Apple.
> 
> Once the backlash had started, THEN Apple shipped copies to retailers. Stores were originally never planned to carry 10.1 except for the full version. *



It was *FREE*.  If you were stupid enough to get it from Apple then you paid the shipping costs.  Yes 20 bux sounds abotu right for people who are too lazy to walk down to the local Microcenter or CompUSA and pick up the free on themselves.

10.3 will be the same way.  MacOS major updates are too big to distribute over the internet at this point.  Incremental updates are easier though.

9.1 was the same way.  It was huge compared to the 9.0.4 update.  If you want to yap at anyone, yap at the people who control the pricing of the internet bandwidth and start demanding 1.5mbit connections for $14.95/month.


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## Codemonkey (Oct 6, 2002)

How do you "detect" a Bluetooth Keyboard and/or mouse if you need a keyboard or mouse to press the 'detect button' apparently 'grayed out' on the prefs panel?

LOL what came first, the chicken or the egg? 

So, in theory, you'd need a pre-existing wired mouse to press the 'detect' button to use the Bluetooth versions.  W00t! What a conundrum! >


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## Krevinek (Oct 6, 2002)

> It was *FREE*. If you were stupid enough to get it from Apple then you paid the shipping costs. Yes 20 bux sounds abotu right for people who are too lazy to walk down to the local Microcenter or CompUSA and pick up the free on themselves.



Uhm, there was originally no plan to ship copies of the upgrade package to any retailers, including Apple stores. It was going to be a 20$ S/H fee to everyone, AND you had to order it through Apple who would ship it.

However, as I said, people complained to no end, so Apple came to a compromise: They would ship copies to retail stores for people to pick up, but those who wanted a mailed copy would have to pay the 20$ S/H fee.

You are new around here, yes?


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## rharder (Oct 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Codemonkey _
> *So, in theory, you'd need a pre-existing wired mouse to press the 'detect' button to use the Bluetooth versions.  W00t! What a conundrum! > *


 Maybe that's what Inkwell is for: they have touch-sensitive screens with handwriting recognition *solely for the purpose* of configuring a bluetooth mouse and keyboard. Ha!

-Rob


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## mdnky (Oct 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Krevinek _
> *10.1 *WAS* a 20$ upgrade until some massive backlash from the community reached Apple.
> 
> Once the backlash had started, THEN Apple shipped copies to retailers. Stores were originally never planned to carry 10.1 except for the full version. *



It was $20 if you ordered the cd and had it shipped to you, for shiping and handling charges.  Apple's website specifically said this 1 month before release, and also said you could stop by a retailer for a FREE copy.  The backlash was people not fully reading Apple's announcement and crying before they heard the full story.  All they saw was the begining saying $20, and went nuts.  Had they read a bit more, they'd seen how to get it free. 

I picked up my copy from a Micro Center the day it was released, FREE.  My best firend in Florida got his from an Apple reseller down there 1 week later, FREE.   Who else here got theirs FREE, I;m betting quite a few.


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## BBenve (Oct 9, 2002)

Panther....will definetly bee a pay upgrade...as 10.2 was.

You guys have to realize one thing... 10.1 waqs free..or 20$ S/H  for a simple reason:

X.0 Was NOT finished ..it was considered as Public Beta 5 but since they advertized it like one year  earlier Apple could not move the release date... so it did what everyone else would have done.

They released a product to keep their word and to make everyone happy, they gained a loot of feedback  that made later version better, then they planned SINCE THE BEGINNING to release a major update FREE of charge to people that committed to X.0.
It was plenned and they did as planned...nothing out of the ordinary there.
Regarding Panther... well the story is different.... as for X.2  was a pay update since X.1 WAS a FINAL release and a FIinished product so will be X.3 since X.2 is DEFINETLY a finished profuct...
the small update that we used to get for free as  9.1  9.2 from 9.0  well those update are gone ...and  they were replaced by the smaller X.X.1 X.X.2 X.X.3  etc so we still get free updates.. but people just think  they do not count since they re not a big number...
10.3 will probably add a lot of feature and many other speed bumps...so it will be a pay for update.. with no doubt.



I hope this make things a little clearer.

Andy


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## serpicolugnut (Oct 9, 2002)

> X.0 Was NOT finished ..it was considered as Public Beta 5 but since they advertized it like one year earlier Apple could not move the release date... so it did what everyone else would have done.



That's neither here nor there. Apple has followed a pattern over the last 10 years of doing a major X.x (referred to as a "point" release) after every large release.

Example:
7.0 - $99
7.1 - free

7.5 - $99
7.5.1-7.5.3 (Free.)

7.6 - $99 (This is the only example that breaks the pattern, but remember, 7.6 was a stop gap release, back when clones were still alive and kicking).

8.0 - $99
8.1 - Free.

8.5 - $99
8.6 - Free

9.0 - $99
9.1, 9.2 - Free

10.0 - $129
10.1 - Free

10.2 - $129
10.3 - well, you get the point...

Ultimately, whatever Apple decides to charge for the next release will depend upon it's feature set. 10.3 will probably do more to improve the current feature set than build upon it, and will probably be free. 

However, Apple's marketing department may decide at some point to throw in some new features in an effort to make it a pay upgrade. This is what essentially happened with Jaguar. Inkwell and  iChat are present for one reason - to strengthen marketings case for a full upgrade. Apple could pull this with 10.3 as development continues. But chances are, 10.3 will be a modest upgrade in terms of new features...


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## BBenve (Oct 9, 2002)

Well... I work as  Apple seeder and i can tell you.... X.1 was free ONLY cause X.0 was at least internally considered ads Public Beta 5 ...they KNEW it was NOT finished and they knew SINCE the beginning they had to release a free update... X.3   will be a pay for upgrade...and time will show


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## adambyte (Oct 9, 2002)

lol Wait... wasn't the "Mac OS X Public Beta" a Public Beta?

heh... don't mind me.

Just for the record, I can't imagine what they'd add to the OS to make it a pay upgrade... don't we have most everything we need? Granted, there are still bugs here and there, but nothing's perfect...


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## celeborn (Oct 9, 2002)

Well I wish Apple worked harder to actually Improve the system - the Finder, for instance, instead of pushing out iApp after iApp. But I guess improving things doesn't sell whereas new features do...


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## sheepguy42 (Oct 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by celeborn _
> *Well I wish Apple worked harder to actually Improve the system - the Finder, for instance, instead of pushing out iApp after iApp. But I guess improving things doesn't sell whereas new features do...  *


Um, speeding the finder up, adding the search field and a find function that wasn't just a link to a huge piece of bloatware, adding the ability for folder and file icons to have not only their name but also some important detail, allowing multiple get info windows, etc... _was_ improving the finder. Or at least that's what _I_ thought.
Maybe you see most of these as unnecesary features, but I find some necesary, and all are necesary to attract Windows users to switch. I agree that Apple is pushing these iApps out before they are ready (I think iCal is as unfinished as iSync), but they are also improving what's there.


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## buattaktahu (Oct 10, 2002)

I think a major Mac OS X 10.3 feature would be Mount Rainer support for CD-RW (god forbid they go down the DVD+RW road...). Yup, that's right, a viable altenative to floppies......


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## kommakazi (Oct 11, 2002)

10.3 will be a pay upgrade. The old pay then free then pay upadte system used with pre-X OS's is over, can't you see the new pattern? 10.1 was free, yes, but only because they were force to release 10.0 unfinished. 10.1 should have been 10.0. All the 10.x.x releases are the free ones we get now. That simple. You will pay for 10.3.


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## nichrome (Oct 11, 2002)

kommakazi, I think it would be healthy for your claim to have some substance around it. Like, say, coherent arguments?

The old model still applies. 10.0 was for-pay, 10.1 was for-free, 10.2 was for-pay. You are suggesting that it's somehow obvious that this will not continue based on... what? The fact that your gut says so, apparently.


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## boi (Oct 11, 2002)

i think the point he's trying to make is that 10.0 was a beta. 10.1 was the first real release of the OS.


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## Krevinek (Oct 11, 2002)

Okay, Apple themselves originally said 10.1 would be 'paid' (as I have been trying to say), but enough e-mail/etc. caused them to re-think the 20$ S&H 'fee' as the only option to upgrade to 10.1. Anyone who says it was going to be free doesn't consider the fact that it was 'free' with a 20$ S&H charge tacked on until they conceded and said retailers would have copies available without the 20$ charge.

10.3 will probably at least attempt to become a pay-for release via a 20$ charge. Exactly how it will work this time will be up to the whiners and Apple


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## boi (Oct 11, 2002)

power to the whiners!


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## celeborn (Oct 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by sheepguy42 _
> *Um, speeding the finder up, adding the search field and a find function that wasn't just a link to a huge piece of bloatware, adding the ability for folder and file icons to have not only their name but also some important detail, allowing multiple get info windows, etc... was improving the finder. ...*



I agree, these were all welcome improvements and I like them. However, Apple has had a whole year since the previous release to make improvements, and I don't think they did nearly enough. I recommend you read John Siracusa's extremely in-depth and perceptive <a href="http://arstechnica.com/reviews/02q3/macosx-10.2/macosx-10.2-1.html">
review on Jaguar at Arstechnica.com</a>. And especially the part <a href="http://arstechnica.com/reviews/02q3/macosx-10.2/macosx-10.2-11.html#finder">concerning the Finder</a>. This is the most interesting part:


> I'm trying not to re-grind too many old axes here, but I feel like the changes being made to the Mac OS X Finder betray a fundamental lack of vision--any vision. Tearing down the old Finder and starting over is all well and good, but the new Finder has yet to even get off the ground. It's taken two major revisions and more than a year to get simple icon dragging right, for crying out loud. Extrapolating based on this rate of progress, we should see some sort of poorly-implemented replacement for things like labels and pop-up folders some time in 2006. And forget about any truly forward-looking features akin to Copland's saved searches or BeOS's metadata-powered custom views. Put simply, the Finder, once the crown jewel of the Mac user interface, no longer seems to be a priority at Apple.


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## fryke (Oct 12, 2002)

Does anybody think that by starting threads about whether 10.3 will be free or pay THIS early (we know SH* about its featureset!) will help settle the talk BEFORE Steve comes onto a stage and says 129$?

It's been a well known fact that there's a difference between updates and upgrades. Mac OS X 10.1 was a big exception, like a few posters here have pointed out. It was an upgrade (which would have cost 129$ and DID cost 129$ if you didn't have 10.0) that was made available for free, because Apple didn't want to upset early adopters too much. (They already did upset them with the 10.0 release.)

Upgrades are new releases with new features, while updates correct things of earlier releases (and maybe add one or other little feature).

We're expecting 10.2.2 and 10.2.3 this year. Those will be updates. Free updates, of course.

We're expecting 10.3 (or whatever Panther will be called when it's released) to ship sometime next year, either in March or August (following either the 10.0 or the 10.1/10.2 release dates). Panther will certainly be an upgrade with new features. And this, folks, means 129$. Please *do* search the forum for the threads about whether Jaguar would be free or not. See the arguments. And keep in mind how 'free' exactly Jaguar was.

Also don't expect Jaguar owners to receive a rebate, unless you buy Jaguar (or a Mac with Jaguar) 30 days before Panther is released.

But really, common sense based or not, this whole thread is based on very vague rumours. Let's take it as a given fact that there WILL be a next version of Mac OS X. The code name of 'Panther' might even be the right one, but still: The only feature that has been mentioned to go alongside Panther is a rumoured technology that could be a) some dev's pet project, b) a planned iApp with .mac connection or, yes, c) a feature of the next version of Mac OS X.

Please wait for leaked Panther builds and leaked screenshots. Then we'll know something about the featureset of the upgrade, and then we'll see what a jump it will be. And my guess is: It will be like 10.1 to 10.2. Therefore, 129$ is a perfectly reasonable price.


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## AppleWatcher (Oct 12, 2002)

I really don't agree with that!

$129 ISN'T a fair price! I think Apple should have an upgrade price for 10.3 and also for 10.2.

I bought the beta, 10.0, 10.1 and these where OSses where nobody could work with! But, I bought them to support Apple.

Then, 10.2 came. NO upgrade price! Full $129 - also for people which bought beta, 10.0 and 10.1....

So I think Apple definitely should have an upgrade price for 10.3!


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## WaterLung (Oct 14, 2002)

Since OS X has been shipping, there isn't much history to go on for predicting whether 10.3 will be paid or free (and yes, I consider going to CompUSA and picking up a copy of 10.3 without exchanging money to be FREE).  

We've only had:  

10.0 --> 10.1  Free
10.1 --> 10.2  Paid

This doesn't make a trend!  And we cannot really use the older Mac OS numbering scheme as a predictor because clearly that numbering scheme has changed.

I think the main considerations for a paid vs. free update are:

Time lapsed between updates:  if 10.3 is released a year or longer after 10.2, then chances are Apple will charge for it.
Feature set:  If there are significant additions to OS X's feature set, then 10.3 will probably cost.  This one's pretty subjective, but as an example 10.2 clearly has a significantly greater feature set than 10.1.

But honestly, does anyone here KNOW if 10.3 will be paid or not?  It's all speculation at this point, and Steve Jobs may not even know as of yet!   

Another thing to consider is the backlash against the full-price cost of Jaguar even for those who upgraded from 10.1.   Although Apple didn't back down at the time, they may have learned their lesson.  I wouldn't be surprised to see a tiered pricing scheme for Panther, with the cost based on ownership of Jaguar:

$129 for those who don't own Jaguar.
$50-$80 for Jaguar owners.


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