# Decided to ditch frames



## MDLarson (Dec 18, 2002)

Well, I've been an advocate for *properly done* frames, but have recently decided to convert my entire website to non-frames.

*Main Reasons:*
1)  Outsiders (search engines and others) cannot link directly to a product page without missing the surrounding navigation / company name context.
2)  Easier and simpler to maintain, now that I've discovered Dreamweaver's _templates_.
3)  Frames are unpopular.

I mention the last, because even though the technology is good, it's only good if people support it.  Atomz search does a good job by having the option to direct search results to a specified frame, but I just feel as if frames don't have an "exciting future."

If you'd like, take a look at my pioneer _non-frames_ product page:

http://www.larsonsystems.com/products/ect/ect.html

If something looks awry, please take a screenshot and post back with your platform / browser version and any thoughts!

Thanks!


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## mdnky (Dec 18, 2002)

Most designers hate frames, which is generally a good idea for numerous reasons.

There are instances in which frames can be usefull or required (I just did a Real Estate site that required frames due to content provided by numerous unrelated sources)....but generally you're better off without them.


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## dlloyd (Dec 18, 2002)

I used to use frames when I hand-coded everything, now I have Dreamweaver, and I haven't used a frame since!


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## MDLarson (Dec 19, 2002)

One other reason I forgot about:

Pages are very difficult to print out effectively.  You never know if people are going to get the top frame, the left frame, or the main frame.  I also find it a pain making "printer friendly" pages, so the best solution is just to ditch frames!

But anyway...


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## Nummi_G4 (Dec 19, 2002)

But frames can be very useful when tying to save load time... or if you want the navigation to always stay at the top, or side, or wherever you have it. How else can you do that? CSS, SSI?


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## MDLarson (Dec 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Nummi_G4 _
> *But frames can be very useful when tying to save load time... or if you want the navigation to always stay at the top, or side, or wherever you have it. How else can you do that? CSS, SSI? *


I haven't heard of SSI, but I use CSS a lot. (Cascading Style Sheets*)

You bring up a good point; the main advantage of frames.  The content remains exactly where it is while you move around the site, and you don't have to reload it.  But those advantages don't cut it anymore for me (see previously posted reasons).  Also, to keep the site consistent, I'm using Dreamweaver's template feature.

This is pretty sweet.  Basically I am designing *one* page for products and *one* page for text only pages.  Then, I can create a new HTML document based off this template and just plop in the content (text, tables, images, etc.)  I can modify my template at any time and Dreamweaver applies any changes to any files linked to the template.  *That's* how my pages will remain consistant.  I didn't use templates before, so I was relying on my perfectionist attention to detail for consistency, which was time consuming.

*Parenthises for the benefit of those who don't know what CSS is.


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## Sjake (Dec 19, 2002)

SSI means 'Server Side Include'.
You use it in PHP and ASP for instance.


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## michaelsanford (Dec 30, 2002)

Yeah I hate frames too, and they can be finikity when accessibility issues are important (i.e., can be difficult to make accessible).


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## slur (Jan 4, 2003)

SSI does not rely on PHP or ASP, it is a function of the web server, in this case Apache. However web-scripting languages do have their own "include" functionality.


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## TommyWillB (Jan 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sjake _
> *SSI means 'Server Side Include'.
> You use it in PHP and ASP for instance. *


 Server Side includes are GREAT! Very low tech (you don't even need ASP/PHP/etc.), but quite powerful.

On OSX you enable it simply by uncommenting these lines of your Apache httpd.conf file:
	
	



```
# To use server-parsed HTML files
    #AddType text/html .shtml
    #AddHandler server-parsed .shtml
```
To do an include you just add this directive:
	
	



```
<!--#include virtual="/cgi-bin/example.cgi" -->
```
Also you'll need to either make your pages have .shtml extensions or also add .html to the Apache config lines above...


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## Profit (Jan 10, 2003)

I find frames essential to keep navigation elements in one place and have content change in the middle.

www.biglocalbands.ca is one site I do.. could anyone suggest another way to achieve the same effect?


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## TommyWillB (Jan 12, 2003)

That's one design decision among many. You may be happy with that decision, but don't kid yourself into thinking that they are "essential"...


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