# New ads? Not cool



## dlloyd (May 20, 2003)

I can't reply to the Announcement that Scott made, so I am starting a new thread.

I don't like this new form of advertising: a whole page ad every ten clicks. I guess if they create revenue for the site, then fine, but I personally would prefer to have a few more small ads on all the pages. If the object of them is to convince me to become a paying member, then I can assure you right now that it is not going to change my outlook on this topic even _one iota._ If anything, they are just going to make me mad.
Oh, and another thing: ads are supposed to make we want to do something with the advertiser, right? Well, I'm not even going to look at these ads, and if I ever do, the way they are being presented is only going to put me off whatever you are trying to promote.
Now, I understand that they may still generate $$$, even if I don't look at them, but I do not agree with the way you are going about it.
What if you did a pop-up? Most of us use pop-up blockers, but you would still get cash that way...

P.S, how do I become a 'volunteer', like Scott mentioned? Or do you need a new Mod or something? I am perfectly happy to help, I want to help, I just can't afford to donate cash to you.


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## Gimpy00Wang (May 20, 2003)

Sure, ads are annoying, but something/someone has to pay the bills. So, if ads can keep me from being the one paying, I'm all for it. At least there's not popups. Are there? I wouldn't know since I block 'em. 8^)

- G!mpy


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## ScottW (May 20, 2003)

dlloyd, why am I not surprised?


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## Gimpy00Wang (May 20, 2003)

What aren't you suprised about?  Inquiring minds want to know...

- G!mpy


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## dlloyd (May 20, 2003)

Because I am really predictable? 
Maybe you will have to mention me by name in your next announcement, something like "Oh, and dlloyd: don't bother to complain, I already know exactly what you are going to say!" 
But couldn't we have an option in the control panel or something to have either the full-page ads, small ads on all pages, or a pop-up? I won't mind so much if they were _interesting_ ads, but I don't want to be Mac Certified, thank you very much, so most of these current ads have no appeal to me.
Like I said, I really do want to help, I just want to help in a non-financial way!
I guess all of this is based out of the fact that I really like this site. It is the only forum I am signed up with, and I just want it to be the best it possibly can be. I guess I could compare it to a child: (although I obviously don't have one) you love you child, you want the best for it. You don't mind sacrificing some things for it, but you are angry if it makes bad choices. (In your opinion). < /cheesy example>

Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate Scott and everything he does for this site. I just don't really agree with the choice he has made, and I really don't like being treated like slime on the bottom of a shoe when I try to help and suggest other ways that I think it could be better done.


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## lurk (May 20, 2003)

Howdy Scott,

Just thought that I would mention that the new adds have been causing me some technical dificulties here.  The first time I tried to get to this thread I had to go through 3 ads and then when I tried to post a reply it vanished.  Although that last thing might have just been a case of operator error.

-Eric


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## Gimpy00Wang (May 20, 2003)

There are many, many solutions for getting a forum to "pay for itself" so to speak. None are perfect. Pro's and con's for each. Popups don't really cut it since many people will/can just block 'em resulting in no $$$ for the site. Large ads pay more than small ads. I have seen some sites go the "you pay $x/mo to have smaller or no ads with pretty good success. But, that sort of thing never appeals to everyone. Scott might consider merchandising. However, that typically requires at least some $$$ up from for getting things designed (coffee cups, T-shirts, etc...) and getting an order system in place. So...that might not be a consideration right now...maybe later.

A neat idea might be to hold a design contest for a macosx.com forums logo for stickers...then put 'em on shirts and all that. That way, you will be selling a logo that people like because you can have them vote for which they like best.

- G!mpy


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## Gimpy00Wang (May 20, 2003)

Lurk...off-topic, but I like your Blinkie pic. 

- G!mpy


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## dlloyd (May 20, 2003)

Geez, I swear Scott has jinxed my account or something! 
I can _live_ with an ad every ten pages, but I every _two?_ I can't live with that


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## Shifting (May 21, 2003)

yeah i'm gettin' the ads like every third page....


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## Arden (May 21, 2003)

I agree with dlloyd, the ads may be necessary but the way they have been implemented is annoying and detracts from the general experience of browsing this site.  They are also useless to many users, resulting in only frustration and confusion.


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## Cat (May 21, 2003)

I don't mind the ads in themselves, but there are a wee bit too many of them. Some sites have these kind of ads, but forward you automatically to the page you requested after a certain amount of time (3-5-10 seconds). Maybe that is a workable alternative ...


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## Browni (May 21, 2003)

I am a long time poster on these forum, in fact it is the only form i post on.  

I understnad that you need to bring in money to fund the site, and yes if i had money to spear i would donate, however i do not, as is the posstion of many on the board im sure.  

To be come a 'no ad memeber' do you have to give money regulally or a one off? 

Just my question

Adam

ps applogiese for the spelling im not too good at it, Apple should put spelling in Safai


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## toast (May 21, 2003)

I don't get any ads, except the Mac CSE thingee that I finished by loving . WTF ?


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## dlloyd (May 21, 2003)

Well, the contributing members, mods, and 'volunteers' don't see them. That is why you don't, toast. 
I want to be a mod or a volunteer! 
But more about the ads: they are fine in themselves; if you present them in a less obtrusive way then I won't complain. It is the way they are shown that annoys me. I personally can't browse the site if I have to stop every too pages to click on a teeny weeny little link at the bottom of a big boring ad. This goes against the rules of interface design (too many clicks to do one thing) and it mightily annoying. If they were auto-forwarding, this would be better.
I understand that they may be annoying on purpose to get more donations for the site, but I haven't donated, I can't donate, I have no plans to donate, and putting annoying ads all over the site isn't going to make me donate. I hate the ads, it is giving those companies 'bad' brand name recognition with me, and it is making me annoyed.
Now if they are making the site piles and piles of cash, then they aren't _so_ bad, (they still aren't presented nicely though...) but from Scott's announcement, it seemed like the reason they are here is to get more Contributing Members "by being more in their face".
I'm not going to become a Contributing Member because you are annoying me, so can't you give me some other way to help? I really want to get rid of these ads, if I can


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## toast (May 21, 2003)

Well, nor am I endorsed with coercitive power, nor am contributing in any other form than text to this forum, so I don't understand: I can't see those ads ! What is this all about ?

I'm using Safari v74 on MacOS X 10.26, cookies come and go, Java is okay, and I just get those forum pages like in the old days. Moreover, i've stayed with the brown theme, the new one being tiring for the eye and graphically debatable.


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## dlloyd (May 21, 2003)

If you read Scott's announcement, you will see that he says that Mods won't see the ads, just the members who 'haven't paid up yet'


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## ScottW (May 21, 2003)

1) The ad system is being tested out, may have a few bugs, please send me a private message and I will address them. One has already been fixed related to posting. You won't get a ad page if you are posting a reply even if your "number is up" and you are to get one.

2) No volunteer or mod positions are currently available.  Especially for those who complain all the time.

3) A one time donation is all that is required to remove the ads and become a contributing member.


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## dlloyd (May 21, 2003)

1) So what _is_ the exact number of pages that we are _supposed_ to get ads after?

2) Whatever, I don't think of this as complaining, rather more of 'contsructive criticism' on how to better implement the ads, if they indeed are necessary.
I would think that if you are going to force ads on those of us who are not Contributing Members, then you should come up with some other way of helping for those who simply don't _have_ the cash to donate! 

3) I never said otherwise, did I?


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## ScottW (May 21, 2003)

_Originally posted by dlloyd _
*1) So what is the exact number of pages that we are supposed to get ads after?*

Currently 5.

*2) Whatever, I don't think of this as complaining, rather more of 'contsructive criticism' on how to better implement the ads, if they indeed are necessary.
I would think that if you are going to force ads on those of us who are not Contributing Members, then you should come up with some other way of helping for those who simply don't have the cash to donate! *

I have, they are called advertisements.

*3) I never said otherwise, did I?  *

Wasn't talking to you.


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## Browni (May 21, 2003)

1) Would you please inform the members as im sure you will when mod / volenter postions are avaible.?

ad


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## dlloyd (May 21, 2003)

1) Okay, it just seems like less than that  One bug though: if you get an ad page when you clicked the link to go to the newest post in a thread, you don't get that post, you just get the top of the thread. I guess this is probably something with the variables not being passed on properly or something.

2) You misinterpreted me: I meant you should find a way for those of us who can't pay to help so that we don't get the ads. Just because we don't have an income and can't give any of our savings to you doesn't mean we are less annoyed by the ads and doesn't mean we don't want to help in another way.

3) Ah, I see now


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## toast (May 21, 2003)

Oh, now I am getting those ads !
Argh! Sickening: I get one ad for three clicks too 

I'm sorry Scott, I just bought my flight tickets for Greece and Reading Festival. Nothing to expect from me for some time 

And dlloyd, I repeat, I'm not a mod nor a contributor, I'm just a simple, ruined member !


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## dlloyd (May 21, 2003)

Oh, ooops! My bad! 
Ruined is right!


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## ebolag4 (May 21, 2003)

[butt-kissing]
 Good job, Scott. I think the ads are a great way of paying the bills and keeping this forum free to the masses. I am saving my pennies for the day I can contribute. Until then, long live the ads!!!
[/butt-kissing]

Seriously though, I have no problem with the ads. I am more annoyed by the people who complain about stuff than the ads ever could. Some people seem like they're taking the whole thing personally. What happens to these people when a commercial comes on the TV ever ten to fifteen minutes while they're watching one of the broadcast (free) networks? Do they call up the network and complain about how the ads keep interfering with their entertainment?

I know that some of the complainers are people who have spent HOURS (if not days) of their time helping others on the board. We all appreciate you! (At least I do.) But that doesn't pay the bills. To make it fair for everyone, everyone has to see the ads unless they've donated some moolah.

Maybe a system could be come up with that says "if you have 100 quality, helpful posts per month, you get to have an ad-free experience." But who's going to sit around and read every person's posts to see if it is quality or not. I suppose Scott could hire someone to do that, but then the whole need funds/need donations process would start all over.

People, sometimes you have to sacrifice a little to get something quality. Let's get over it already.


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## dlloyd (May 21, 2003)

I don't have a TV though


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## edX (May 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ScottW _
> 2) No volunteer or mod positions are currently available.  *Especially for those who complain all the time.
> *



i just want to re-emphasize this point. people are judged by their actions. ina forum, what you post is an action. and let me tell you, nobody wants to listen to somebody else whine, even when they have a valid point. sometimes it's not what you say, but how you say it. and how often.


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## Androo (May 21, 2003)

ummmm i just came here, i got an ad, and i went to my website. Then i came back here, and i had an ad again. I dont have enough money right now. And, if i get a bit of money finally, the last thing i'd spend it on would be here. Unless i got like 1000 dollars, i would contribute. But right now i have no money. Always at school someone comes in every fricken week to teach us about some science thing, or geography thing........ and then they charge money. Because of that, my pockets are empty. Now i have started work. I am doing some simple things to start out to make a bit of cash. If i spend it on macosx.com, something i always had for way over a year (maybe even 2 years, i had another account). Suddenly i gotta work for macosx.com. Now when i come here to go into the cafe, i see an advertisement, practically an insult, saying that i'm not a true user, though i have been with the forum for a long time. It says that i dont care aobut the forum and the users.... i do care. I try my best. I made the image thread for people (and me!) to see art that we all made. I have tried to give my opinion, i GAVE it to you. I served it to you on a plate, flamebroiled, marinated in delicious juices. I gave that to you. And now, you want more from me. Sure, scott works hard to keep it running and all that. But i am not going to work for him. I am not going to give the few pennies i have left.
I am saying all this, because i have the right to. I have the right... hell, we ALL have the right to give our opinions. If it wasnt for opinion, this board would've died out. Scott made a forum.... he made the forum for people to come and chat..... rich people, poor people, everyone came. He didnt make it to beg for money. He did not create the forum as a fundraiser. he made it for people to share their ideas and opinions of computers... and hell, practically everything you can think of. He made the email program, and got ads. Does that not pay it off?
We as mac users are being insulted. It's not like we didnt notice that we havent paid. Now the ads have been stuck there. We saw about the donations on the top navbar. You didnt have to stick more things there, just incase we didnt notice the donate button. Why? To annoy us? to pay us back?
Oh no we're terrible. We joined your forum. You made the forum so we'd JOIN IT. So we do that, and you ask us for money. If you ever need money, dont ask your users. Get a job. If you already have one, then it should pay off most things. Hopefully you arent lying to us.
Dont ask us for money. Dont stick annoying advertisements inbetween our beloved threads. When we have enough money to donate, we will. Those extra ads annoy me, and make me feel like not donating, since its right in my face saying PLEASE GIVE ME MONEY!
We kno where the donations button is. I see it every time i come here. You dont need the extra ads.... you dont need them.......
Androo.


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## Ricky (May 21, 2003)

No one's forcing you to stay.


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## dlloyd (May 21, 2003)

Hmmmm... I agree with Androo, partially. (I am in sort of the same situation as he is.)
Only partially though: I think Scott has the _right_ to ask for money, and the _right_ to put ads on his site.
What I don't think is that he should have the _right_ to make *our* (yes, *our*, we have spent a lot of time here) forum practically unusable by throwing ads in everywhere so that I can't even read a two page thread without getting an ad which makes me stop and wait for it too load. Not to mention the bandwidth drain on both MacOSX.com's server and my ISDN line every time I have to download one of those big images that he uses for Ads.
Furthermore, I don't think he should force ads onto people who _cannot_ afford to 'donate'. He should find some other way to allow those of us who can't send him money but still want to help to assist on the site.
On a related side note: I never browse the boards individually now, I use the "View New Posts" option. Therefore, I didn't see the announcement about the new ads until I got the first one. Would it be possible to display any new announcements in the View New Posts page?


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## Androo (May 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ricky _
> *No one's forcing you to stay.   *


nooo what i am saying is this forum was made for people to come here and chat, and now we're being charged cuz we CAME here, which was the whole point of the forum.


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## Androo (May 21, 2003)

Wait, i just went to read about the contributions thing.
look:
*"We recommend $20.00 for a contribution, however you can give as little or   as much as you can. You get instant access."*
That means that you dont have to give 20 bucks.... if you have 5 then give 5 dollars. You're still contributing, scott still gets money, you dont have ads, you're not broke.
Hell, would even 2 dollars count? 1? 50¢?
lol the last 2 would mean that ur extremely cheap....


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## ScottW (May 21, 2003)

No one is charging anyone. Those who contribute financially get perks, those who don't are covered by ads. It's really simple actually.

I don't pay for the TV shows I watch, the advertisers pay for them. On pay-per-view they don't have advertisements and that is because I paid. HBO doesn't have ads cause well, I pay for it as well. (that is, if I had any premium channels).

On any given hour on regular broadcast TV, you have around 16 minutes of commercials. One in 5 pages views is only 20%, which is less than the amount of commercials on TV.

On top of this, I drive to work each day and I see billboards and signs, and they don't pay for the road I drive on, but I still have to see them.

No one is asking you to stay, it would mean more if you quit coming to the site than if you stayed and complained. Because by staying, you are generating more impressions, posting more threads and topics and overall making this site more successful by staying.

I hate to see anyone go, but if you want to make a point, make it... don't complain about it.

Scott


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## ebolag4 (May 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by dlloyd _
> *I don't have a TV though  *



lol dlloyd 


OK guys, let's turn this into something constructive. If the ads are so so bad, then let's put our heads together to come up with some ideas on how we can raise money to pay the bills around here and make the user experience more enjoyable at the same time.

Besides, and I'm just guessing here, maybe Scott has resorted to these more "in your face tactics" because the money needed to keep this boat afloat was not coming in fast enough. Let's face it, donating hours and hours of time doesn't help when what you need is money, or the whole thing disappears. I mean, it's not like Scott can go to the bank and say, "Hey, one of my users, ebolag4, has spent 5000 hours on my site helping other users. I'd like you to accept his hours as the same as cash and pay off my bill for the new hardware." Could you imagine that? He'd get laughed out of the bank, then probably arrested and put under psychiatric evaluation!

So again, what are some ideas to help both sides of the issue here?


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## edX (May 21, 2003)

the only real issue i see is a couple of teenagers complaining that they don't have money and that it's unfair that the world requires it. in other words, being a teenager sucks. i can empathize with that a lot more than i can the idea that Scott sucks because he has chosen to help support the site in this manner.  but don't make it so personal - Scott didn't sit down one day and say "i think i'll figure out a way to make all the teenagers suffer some more". i guarentee you he didn't think of any particular members when he created this. it's just part of the 'doing business' side of things. 

posts help other users, and  the thanks you get from them is the only reward offered. keeping the site afloat financially has little to do with how many posts there are to help others out. except that the more posts, the more bandwidth and the higher the cost of running the site. 

at the current time we do not have age restrictions and do not intend to. this is a family oriented site and all ages are welcome. however, we still expect some degree of maturity from even our youngest members. whining is not a mature act. 

oh, and one more thing - for those who feel "i'd never pay a cent to a forum even if i did have the money", please feel free to leave without saying goodbye if the ad system offends you.


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## dlloyd (May 21, 2003)

ebolag4: oh yes, lets!  That would be loads of fun!! (dead serious, I'm not being sarcastic!) I'll start thinking about other ways that we can get some cash for this site.
I don't have a problem with the ads in themselves, I just think that if they are there for the revenue that they bring in, lets make them a bit less obtrusive. I would be happy to do some design sketches for this! (hint hint Scott )
If on the other hand they are here to be 'in my face'... well you already know what I am going to say 
edX: as far as I know, most teenagers of our age group still live with their parents, don't have to buy their own cloths and food, don't have to pay for the utilities, and don't have a job.
I didn't say Scott sucks, he does a great job with most of this site! Go Scott 
I already said: _I don't *care* about the ads!_ (  ) I just don't like the un-streamlined way they are presented. Why don't we all get together and deside how to make them less obtrusive?
I didn't mean to whine, I just want the best for this site as a whole. If that means protesting the way something way done, then I say do be it! 
Oh, and I might contribute if I had a job. I _don't_ have a job though, so I don't know for sure. However don't point the "i'd never pay a cent to a forum even if i did have the money" gun at me please


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## Jason (May 21, 2003)

you act like its just teenagers who are poor and whiny ed 

*hugs mod stati* 

i would like to see a picture of one of these ads for curiosity's sake


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## edX (May 22, 2003)

sorry if i gave that impression jason. it's just that the only ones doing any whining in this thread are teens. the rest of the people posting have been either understanding of the ads and the situation or reporting difficulties with their implementation.  most people said what they wanted to say and left it at that. certain others are making this a personal campaighn like they were the intended 'victims' of the ads. they need to give it a rest. the point is made. whining further isn't going to change anything, if anything it will just make it slower to change. i know i don't respond well to whines. a person who whines is less likely to get than someone who states the same thing in a rational way.  one whiner can spoil the whole message for everybody.


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## symphonix (May 22, 2003)

Oh, and by the way, there is a typo on the full page ads. "Too" should be "To". ;-)


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## JetwingX (May 22, 2003)

Scott, could you PLEASE have them froward after 5 seconds because it realy screws me up when i am editing a post and the big orang thing pops in my face and when i click the like to go forward, everything f***sup


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## Shifting (May 22, 2003)

now i get two ads IN A ROW every time i post...in addition to one every five clicks or so.

what's up with that?

not complaining, just seems like something is out of whack.  i'd love to contribute, i like this board a lot, but i'm a starving artist...


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## edX (May 22, 2003)

shifting and others - reports of technical problems with the ads are appreciated. the idea isn't to make the site unusable. they should work like they are supposed to and any help making sure that is the case is a good thing.


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## bobw (May 22, 2003)

Complaining about being a teenager and having no job or money just shows how lazy some are. Most mature, responsible teenagers have a part time job so they can have some money of their own. My son got his first part time job at 15 and always had a job through school. He liked the freedom it gave him, and he felt more independent. Teenagers,  stop winning and go out and get a part time job.


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## ScottW (May 22, 2003)

Okay....

1) I have tried to apply a "skip" procedure on any pages that require posting, editing, logging in, new membership creation, etc. If you have any issues or find anything I missed, let me know.

2) Too has been changed to To.

3) A 10 SECOND auto-forward has been added, after 10 seconds the paged you linked to will automatically load.

As for getting dupes after posting, I am not sure about that, I can't replicate it.

Scott


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## Browni (May 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by bobw _
> *Complaining about being a teenager and having no job or money just shows how lazy some are. Most mature, responsible teenagers have a part time job so they can have some money of their own. My son got his first part time job at 15 and always had a job through school. He liked the freedom it gave him, and he felt more independent. Teenagers,  stop winning and go out and get a part time job. *




Im a student (yr 11 GCSE) i have no time to get a job and any money i do get goes in to my uni account ( i have to raise £1000 - tuition fees) so as much as iwould like to donate i cant, however i do undernstand the finachal diffcutues of the board and wish i could but i cant.


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## Arden (May 22, 2003)

I can understand putting ads in and all that... the thing I don't like is the implementation.  They don't take up any space in history, yet they screw up navigation.  When I click on the "Unread Post" buttons, and this ad pops up, either I have to go back and do it again or I click on "continue" and it goes to the top, f*cking up my navigation

I'd suggest putting in some sort of floating div, like they have at Amazon or the Midi Database.  Just put a floating ad on top of each page, or every so many pages, with a spot to click to close off the ad.  The current system is just too annoying.


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## Androo (May 22, 2003)

See scott? the ads are causing problems. If we ever feel like donating, we'll click on the donate thingy at the top.
When we edit a post it messes us up. Sometimes after 2 clicks it shows the ads (at least for me).
The ads arent going to make us donate faster....... we KNO where that donations button is!
For those who are blind:


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## ScottW (May 22, 2003)

Androo, I guess you just don't get it, do you. I find no reason to explain myself. When the rest of the internet explains why they have ads on their site, and why sites like yahoo, who also use these type of ads (like in yahoo groups) can explain why they use them, then maybe I would find a need too.

Whether or not you donate is not the issue, whether or not you click or purchase is not the issue, the fact they are displayed is. Hence, that is what advertising is. 

Scott


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## Androo (May 22, 2003)

But these NEW ads inbetween every few pages. IGN does that, and i dont go there anymore (only cuz i found a site that was better and didnt have ads between pages). On these new ad pages it tells you to donate. So, that must be the reason why they're there. It's like a second donation button on the website, but this one is more in your face and annoying. If something or someone annoys me, i ignore it, and go away from it..... or i punch it if it really angers me so badly.  Luckily there are no holes in my computer.


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## ScottW (May 22, 2003)

Thats fantastic, Thanks for your input. It will be piled in with the 3 other complaints.

Thanks.

Scott


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## ebolag4 (May 22, 2003)

Androo, do you have the kind of parents who change their mind about something if you whine long enough? C'mon man, get over it! This is not the way to get what you want. I'm not trying to be mean, but let's move on with our lives.


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## Androo (May 22, 2003)

know what? that's the most sense anyone made in about 5 minutes. I will take your advice and chew on it then swallow it then digest it. Then the nuetrients will travel to different parts of me.


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## dlloyd (May 22, 2003)

^^^^
Classic Androo type post 

Anyhow, I don't mean to whine, I want to help make the ads less annoying. However, _some people_ don't seem to read that part of my post and are intent on focusing on the parts which they think are 'complaining'.
Bob, I am 13, not 15. I don't have to job yet.
EDIT: (I had to go off pretty quick last time) I don't have a job, I live in a pretty remote area, so it isn't as simple as walking over to the neighborhood Burger King or something. In fact, to do anything, I would have to get one of my parents to drive me, something they flat out refuse to do (they already shuttle me all over to music lessons, choir rehearsals, etc.) This pretty much limits me to doing something with my computer.
Now, I am trying to do this, but I have a fairly erratic schedule, so trying to finished a job on time might be a bit difficult. Also, I need the right software to do this. Yeah, I supposed I can use a P2P, but I don't feel right about doing that. Therefore I must save all my $$$ to get this software. It is sort of a vicious circle, and the _last_ thing I need is to have one of my favourite web sites institute a time-wasting ad system which means that much of the time I have available to answer questions on this forum is instead spent on clicking past unwanted ads.
I have offered to help make the ads less obtrusive, but my offer was _completely_ ignored. What do I have to do to get you guys to stop treating me like dog ****?


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## toast (May 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ScottW _
> *Androo, I guess you just don't get it, do you. I find no reason to explain myself. When the rest of the internet explains why they have ads on their site, and why sites like yahoo, who also use these type of ads (like in yahoo groups) can explain why they use them, then maybe I would find a need too.*



Yahoo! Newsgroups have ads at the end of the messages, not in the middle or as a result of the sending process 

Disclaimer: I'm not complaining about the ads, I was just noting the comparison with Yahoo! Groups is not of the most pertinent.


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## ScottW (May 22, 2003)

Disclaimer: Toast has obviously not used Yahoo Groups using the web interface to browse multiple message postings.


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## dlloyd (May 22, 2003)

Kinda strange, but I think that every time I have tried to view this thread, I have got one of those ads


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## mr. k (May 22, 2003)

scott... i say instead of people having avatars the space taken up by avatars is sold as an ad!
it's a genieus idea really...  how many ad's are there now on those page? three max, i don't think i have seen more then that.  so take everyone with 500-600+ posts (the people who post in almost every thread, all the time...), put a little ad as their avatar with a link i could click if it looks interesting, and wham!  peoples ad's go up in 500-600 different places, and the form users won't even get mad about obtrusive, in your face advertising!

well, some might get mad and want to have their avatars back, but i think that system would be much better   take avatars away from the average and just let mods have them - it could be like a badge, a medal of honor... 
i myself am not a fan of the individual pages, niether am i a fan of donations :- but much like dllyod i would be happy to help in almost any other way.

can anyone say car wash?


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## kenny (May 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ebolag4 _
> *Seriously though, I have no problem with the ads. I am more annoyed by the people who complain about stuff than the ads ever could. Some people seem like they're taking the whole thing personally. What happens to these people when a commercial comes on the TV ever ten to fifteen minutes while they're watching one of the broadcast (free) networks? Do they call up the network and complain about how the ads keep interfering with their entertainment?
> 
> I know that some of the complainers are people who have spent HOURS (if not days) of their time helping others on the board. We all appreciate you! (At least I do.) But that doesn't pay the bills. To make it fair for everyone, everyone has to see the ads unless they've donated some moolah.
> *



These are some good, if flawed, points. With TV, there is no input from the viewer. The viewer does not add to the value of the show (content), so it's very much a provider->consumer arrangement. The folks that spend the time helping others _do_ contribute to the site through their efforts, while at the same time providing a means of attracting advertisers.

Put another way - there are two extremes here. Remember, these are extremes only to illustrate my point, not a reflection on any particular individuals, nor is the world this black and white. But consider these two examples of folks that might frequent the forums:

1 - The person who posts helpful/useful/interesting information on a regular basis. Often posts answers to obscure, difficult questions, and even is occasionally found in IRC/iChat answering questions.

2 - The person that never posts, but has contributed $20 to avoid seeing ads.

I ask, which one of these is adding more value to the forums? Which one is treating the forums as a pay-tv channel (to riff on the analogy)?

As for interstitial ads... I can't stand them. My visits to the site have fallen way off since the bruhahah over the temporary closure (and no, I'm not trying to start that whole argument up again), and this might just be the end of my visits here... I'm very saddened by the way the whole web has evolved into a kind of parody of TV with the numerous advert schemes, and offended by the lengths at which some are willing to go to generate impressions. Interstitials aren't the worst, but they're pretty close. A mention was made earlier about Yahoo groups use of them, and that's exactly why I don't frequent Yahoo _at all_ any more.

As an alternative, might I suggest looking at the way Google does adverts? They're all text-only (low bandwidth), unobtrusive, and generally relevant. Could something like that work here?


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## Randman (May 22, 2003)

I have to go with Scott on this one. He took a lot of the advice/criticism given after the temp shut down. He informed the board about the action before it happened, then is listening to complaints about it while it is being enacted. Kudos on that.

I can understand being a little tight for money, and I'd be pissed if I had to donate to every site I visit regularly.

That said, I donated because I get good information. Hell, for the cost of a couple of Mac(insert your title here) magazines, you can donate and get far more information and in a timely manner.

And it irks me to see people saying they have no money to donate but their sig says stuff like30 gb external hard drives, 800 mhz Macs, their own websites, their band's websites. Oh, and I can't contribute because I'm low on money because I just bought plane tickets to Greece AND the Reading festival.

It's not like you're having to sign up and pay a huge amount every month. The cost of a couple of magazines, a super-sized lunch or two and you have no ad pop-ups.

 If you are living at home, ask your parents. If you spend more time on this board in a month than the length of 1 movie, contribute the cost of a movie ticket, popcorn and coke. It's simple. Think of it as shareware.

  Macosx.com is shareware. If you pay a little, you get some benefits. If you don't, then you have to live with some limitations if you use the service. Or you can choose and not use the service.


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## Arden (May 23, 2003)

Androo:  Online advertisements are a fact of the cyber life.  Almost every site that's worth anything has some sort of advertising, whether annoying or not.  So complaining about having ads at all isn't going to get you anywhere.  Either put up, or shut up.

Scott:  I'd like some sort of feedback on whether you can or will change the way the ads are presented.  As they are, they are too intrusive and they mess up the proper browsing of this site.  If necessary, I will start a thread about ideas to change the current ad scheme, and at some point I will probably send you $5 or $10 (cash) in an envelope.  What was the address again?


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## toast (May 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ScottW _
> *Disclaimer: Toast has obviously not used Yahoo Groups using the web interface to browse multiple message postings. *



Disclaimer: Scott has obviously not used Yahoo Groups using the mail interface to browse single or multiple message postings. 

My bad, Scott, I didn't even know there was such an interface


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## dlloyd (May 23, 2003)

mr. k: great idea! I think that would work, provided that we could _choose_ which ad we wanted, and that they weren't too big.

Kenny: good point, I agree with you.

Randman: please don't speak on what you don't know.
My Mac was a deal between me and my parents, I paid $700 and they filled in the difference (about $2000 ). I had been doing research and stuff so this was something I had been wanting for about four months.
My web site was also a gift from them, because I _needed_ somewhere to host the web sites I am designing.
I never go to the movies (welll... maybe about once a year) because I live too far away, and I couldn't afford them. I don't get any magazines, for the same reason.
I haven't bothered to say this before, but if I asked my Dad to pay for me, I am pretty sure he would flatly refuse to send anything in the mail, and he probably would not be thrilled with me wanting to send cash through PayPall to some guy on the internet whom I don't know and don't particularly trust (sorry Scott).
It saddens me that you compare MacOSX.com to shareware. I don't own any shareware. I also meant to compare it to shareware, but in a 'bad' way. Must've slipped my mind
Anyway, again, please do not post on things you don't know about. 

Ardan, good idea in what you said to Scott, not going to comment on the other part.


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## Ricky (May 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Androo _
> *But these NEW ads inbetween every few pages. IGN does that, and i dont go there anymore (only cuz i found a site that was better and didnt have ads between pages).*


Hm.    I paid for an Insider subscription, and there are no more ads now.


> _Originally posted by Androo _
> *If something or someone annoys me, i ignore it, and go away from it....*


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## Randman (May 24, 2003)

> Anyway, again, please do not post on things you don't know about.


 Actually, I think it's you who posts on things you don't know about. You'll learn one day that some things cost money and if you don't have it, you don't get what you want. It often sucks, but that's the way thngs are. If you don't have the money, then you have to make do with some inconveniences or you can take your gifts and move on to another site where you don't have this problem. Whining and bitching and ranting isn't going to solve your needs or win you many admirers. If you were troubled by  the ads, you should show some maturity and e-mailed Scott privately to discuss your situation and to see if there were workable alternatives. If he wasn't open to any suggestions (and I would hope he would be, considering your age and situation), then why would you want to stay around here anyway.
  But you took the easy way out and starting taking potshots and weren't the least bit constructive. I've read many of your posts and think you're pretty bright and I've agreed with what you had to say on a lot, I just think you're handling this instance hasn't been the wisest thing and you're digging yourself into a hole rather than looking for working solutions. 

   That said, if you were given a gift of a computer and web site and told your folks, you wanted $5 or $10 so you could enjoy a site that was instructive and fun and you'd work an extra chore or two around the house to earn that money, that they wouldn't help you out?

  Or you couldn't go to the neighbors and say: Hey, I'm trying to earn a few bucks to get something, can I mow the lawn or shovel snow from the sidewalk or wash the car or walk the dog for a few bucks, that no one would give you a few bucks?

  And if you are adamant about not feeling the need to pay, then don't. But then you have to accept the fact that this site is adding ads and they may annoy you, and they may annoy you so much that you don't care to visit this site so much.


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## JetwingX (May 24, 2003)

i'm happy now


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## dlloyd (May 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Randman _
> *Actually, I think it's you who posts on things you don't know about. You'll learn one day that some things cost money and if you don't have it, you don't get what you want. It often sucks, but that's the way thngs are.
> *


I _already_ know that things cost money. I am well aware of it, thanks.


> *
> If you don't have the money, then you have to make do with some inconveniences or you can take your gifts and move on to another site where you don't have this problem. Whining and bitching and ranting isn't going to solve your needs or win you many admirers.
> *


Ya know, I am seriously considering doing this. A lot of my friends from this forum are leaving, so I am getting a little lonely.
The only reason I haven't already left is because I have so much invested in this site. It seems a bit of a pity to lose it all now.


> *
> If you were troubled by the ads, you should show some maturity and e-mailed Scott privately to discuss your situation and to see if there were workable alternatives. If he wasn't open to any suggestions (and I would hope he would be, considering your age and situation), then why would you want to stay around here anyway.
> *


I have tried this before. It didn't work.
The problem is that he doesn't seem to be particularly open, period. I did ask a few months ago in a PM whether there was another way I could help out, and as I recall, he didn't even bother to send me a response. I still want to help out though.
Besides, this way other people can voice their opinions on the subject! I can pretty much guarantee that if I hadn't posted, then someone else would have. 


> *
> But you took the easy way out and starting taking potshots and weren't the least bit constructive. I've read many of your posts and think you're pretty bright and I've agreed with what you had to say on a lot, I just think you're handling this instance hasn't been the wisest thing and you're digging yourself into a hole rather than looking for working solutions.
> *


Could you please show me some of these 'potshots'? As far as _I_ can tell, I voiced my opinion and then offered to help make things better. (I'm not the only one who doesn't mind the ads in themselves. We just don't like the way they are presented)
It appears that I offered many times to help, but each time I was ignored. This doesn't say much for Scott's legendary openness, does it? 


> *
> That said, if you were given a gift of a computer and web site and told your folks, you wanted $5 or $10 so you could enjoy a site that was instructive and fun and you'd work an extra chore or two around the house to earn that money, that they wouldn't help you out?
> *


Actually upon thinking about it, I could probably get some extra cash without too much trouble, the problem will be getting Dad to send it. I am pretty sure he would want some reliable references for Scott first. How about we make a deal: (this is for Scott) You get me some references for you that my Dad can trust, and I will work on getting 5-10 bucks. Good?
EDIT: I just looked at the PayPal pay link. How do you know what my user account is?


> *
> Or you couldn't go to the neighbors and say: Hey, I'm trying to earn a few bucks to get something, can I mow the lawn or shovel snow from the sidewalk or wash the car or walk the dog for a few bucks, that no one would give you a few bucks?
> *


Yeah, great idea, _with one big flaw!_
I said I live in the middle of nowhere. 
We don't have any neighbors close by (and of the 'neighbors' we do have, I only know one. He sometimes pays me a bit to stack wood or something, but we aren't in season for that now. I guess I could ask him anyway though)


> *
> And if you are adamant about not feeling the need to pay, then don't. But then you have to accept the fact that this site is adding ads and they may annoy you, and they may annoy you so much that you don't care to visit this site so much. *


Gosh, don't you listen? I said I wanted to pay, I just don't have any cash! I know the site is putting ads in, and I am also well aware that they are annoying. I just wanted to help make them a bit less annoying and more streamlined.


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