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I found an article on OS Opinion: http://www.osopinion.com/perl/story/16059.html that claims that mindless zeal does not help apple.

After reading it, I didn't think that he really explained why it isn't helpfull so I'll chime in. If you support a product without thinking then you lose the respect of the people around you and you've lost your ability to convice people.

In other words, if you don't look at something with a critical eye before you deem it "the best" then nobody will listen to your opinion.

Vanguard

PS This is not to say that I don't prefer Apple, I do. I've stated several times that they have the finest consumer OS ever made (so far) and that they use high quality parts in their machines.
 
But what if I am so impressed by a product, if it is THE BEST product for me as an individual, for my personal style of working? Am I a mindless zeal? Or am I just more than happy with a product and thus I tell everybody why *I* love Apple, why Apple makes the best solutions *in my opinion* and that I will stick to Apple as long as *I* am so damn productive with their products?
I never tried to force a Mac on someone. That's stupid. Also, I never bought a Mac only because it is a Mac and I am a mindless zeal.
In fact, I'd say 80% of the Mac community do it because they are convinced that the Mac is THEIR product of choice, not because beeing in the Mac community makes you a zealot.
In my humble opinion, the choice of your workstation depends on your lifestyle and it reflects your lifestyle! I would never blame somebody for using Windows, or Linux, or MacOS, or BeOS. It's a personal decission you have to make. I know people who are REALLY productive in Windows! I can't say if they would be more productive on a Mac, but that's not the point.
The fact is, Apple does not force us to stick with them. For example, Microsoft forces a new technology on us! They cancelled Java support in their upcoming products (starting with IE 6 and WinXP) because they are developing their own "Java", the.net-technology, something which I am looking forward to (I know their are big differences between Java and .net, but they somehow share the same basic idea, but with a different approach). But nonetheless, Microsoft does not let the customers decide! They say "no more Java support unless the user installs it", and as we all know, most "home"-Pc users wouldn't install the Java Runtime unless they are tought to do.
All I wanted to say is that most people don't buy Macs because they are Macs and they want to support Apple! They buy them because they are productive with them!
I wouldn't call that "zeal".

I would count myself - and most Mac users - to the people which base their decisions on mentioned aspects of technology, not because it has an Apple on it.

oh, and seriously, if tomorrow I would realize that working on a Sun workstation lets me be ten times more productive and I would have more fun than on the Mac, I would switch! But at the moment, from all the solutions I have used (Wintel, Solaris/Sun, Linux/Intel&Mac, MacOS/Macintosh) the Mac is where I feel best.
 
I'm not ashamed to say that I have been resposible for converting quite few people to Apple over the years, but not through any kind of mindless zeal - just from being able to provide information about the platform to friends/colleagues who would otherwise be sucked into the terrifying world of Wintel because as far as they are concerned it is the only option. Apple seem to have a much higher profile in the States and parts of Europe than they do in the UK, and it's rare that you see an Apple in any high-street computer store, save perhaps the token iMac sitting on a back shelf.

As discussed in this thread, I think that a certain amount of zeal is necessary. Many PC users diss Macs without having spent any reasonable amount of time with them, whereas we cannot help but live day-to-day without having some contact with Windows.

I think the other major, most notable, difference is that whilst most Mac evangelists/zealots will tell you their machines are 'better', most PC users will say how Macs are 'worse'. The standard argument is 'Macs Suck. They just do. I don't know why, I don't use one, but they're crap colours and they only have one mouse button'
 
I do feal that there are a number of Mac-heads out there still saying Macs are faster. I love Macs, but this isn't remotely true. These people are the ones that make us look like a cult. There are pig-headed people on both side of the argument.

I do agree with Tismey, however. The most recent Mac products (iPod, new iBook, new iMac) are all as good as Apple says they are. It's just a matter of getting other people to really look at them closely enough to see that.
 
If you have debates with PC users over actual facts, and the sole basis of your argument doesn't use the words good, bad, and sucks, as evidence, you are not a zealot.

ex.

PC's just suck.
Macs are always better. They are good.

These aren't arguments, these are punchs thrown in the dark.
Not to say that the first example couldn't lead to an argument with substance.:)
 
The difference between Apple and Microsoft is that Microsoft tries to rule the computer world, and they never follow standards, they make their own. And, because Microsoft already have the most of the software market, they have enough power to do it, too. In fact, they can do whatever they want, and the majority of the people won't care. Just look at Microsoft's new licencing systems, and their agreements. Have you read it? It's completely sick.

Of course Apple wants to rule the computer market, too, but they do things in, say, a more honest way than Microsoft, they don't have the same sick licence agreements etc.

And, a dual 1 GHz G4 IS faster than a single 2.2 GHz Pentium 4. Trust me ;)
And they blow pentiums to hell on floating operations :)
 
While I admit that Macs are slower than PCs at some things, like gaming for example, Macs are faster at some things. Like in Photoshop rendering -- I know it's kind of kicking a dead horse, since that's like the only thing Apple touts these days, but it still remains true.

And even if the Mac can't keep up with PCs in pure processing power, they sure make up in the software. DVD encoding is much faster on the Mac thanks to iDVD. Video-editing is much faster thanks to Final Cut Pro 3. So the argument that the Mac is faster still holds, but in a different sense.

On an unrelated topic, I have to laugh at ulrik's current avatar. It doesn't look like it's looping -- very nice. :) That's a lot of people being pushed off of a cliff. ;)
 
Yeah, I too laughed at ulriks avatar, it's really cool :D

I have to make something like that when I've got time ;)
 
Fortunately, the company is now getting them. A couple of years ago, the only Mac people in my workplace were "Mac people." They were identified by their sad eyes and the lack of spring in their step.
Click to expand...

i have never found this to be the case. Mac users are the ones smiling for no apparent reason most of the time. they haven't had anything f*ck up their day recently. and if it were true, there is an old addage to explain it - "it's hard to soar like an eagle when you're surrounded by a bunch of turkeys".

These people, and their counterparts in MIS departments around the world, each will do more to displace the PC in the workplace than a thousand zealots.
Click to expand...

true enough. :)
 
I think that as mac users we do have to have zeal. Are we suppose to be just passive and when somebody says "macs suck" we dont debate it when we all know that macs *are* better then pcs. It is silly when you just say macs are better for *everything* and PCs suck at everything. Then your basically another PC idiot saying "macs suck".

The problem is that people dont know about macs. People think it is still running OS 7 or something they would have tried in the past. Or they think that they are bright colours. Or the all popular "macs are only good for graphics". When people actually TRY a mac with an open mind they will see how cool and nicer it is. Its much enjoyable to use a mac and I know I am more productive and I have more fun. PC users cling to arguements babout single mouse buttons, crashes (which isn't at all true), compatibility, and even crazy things like "my email doesn't work on macs". I know that macs are better, because I've used different platforms with an open mind. PC users just htink that since everyone uses PCs that they are better. And when they do try a mac they dont give it a chance. They laugh at colours, think the OS is confusing when its really easier and then they keep thinking that macs suck.

I'll give you two examples of the misinformation PC users have about macs. I was talking to a diehard pc user about how i had a mac. We got over all the stupid mac suck stuff from him. Then I told him that os x was based on unix. He didn't know what OS X was of course (thanks apple to advertising). Then he said that it wasn't really unix and it was probably just a little bit of unix and the rest was the same. Then i told him about darwin, etc. And then he told me that "UNIX sucks... windows NT is better". You cannot have rational conversation with these people. They know nothing about waht they are talking about and they preach it to other people as the truth.

Another person I know tried to convince me that Apple was lying about the geforce4 and it was really a geforce3. These comments are just stupid and annoying.

This is one of the reasons that I'm setting up a mac club at my school with some friends. We will have meetings and also presentations in hard to avoid places :). We will use these to show people macs and make people at least respect them and know what they are refering to when they say "macs suck".

googolplex

P.S. I really went off topic there :)
 
Just thought I'd chime in with my thoughts.

1. The people that posted to the thread seem really cool. I was concerned that I was going to get smashed for saying something that wasn't purely positive.

2. Dual 1ghz vs. 2.2 P4? It'd be a good race but it's not really a fair fight since the Athlon is the current king of the hill. Of course, if the operations have to be performed sequentially then dual processors get you nothing. (Still, a lot of operations can be done in parallel.)

3. Ulrik's avatar is awesome.

Vanguard
 
Well I have to admit, I maybe was one of the Apple zelots in years past. In middleschool a friend and I fought about it for hours but what else were we to do? Since I've been in college, however, I've been more low key and increadibly more successful in gaining converts. That is in part due to the new innovations in apple such as OSX but also the fact that people _hate_ a zelot. All it took was to set up my computer in my dorm and I had my room mate interested. His experience was less than peachy especially with his network card. My mac just plugged in. He just recently bought an iBook and part 2 of convincing him to be a "mac" person was all up to Apple and OSX. It was so easy, zelot not included.

It's such a shame that the biggest myth is compatability (in my opinion). People see "look it works with PCs, but why do I need something that works with PCs when PCs work with PCs. The true selling factor should be in its ease of use but until we can let people know they "just work" that won't be possible.
 
Originally posted by Ed Spruiell
i like ulrik's avatar but it is making me dizzy:cool:
Click to expand...

So I achieved my goal! THat's all I wanted to achieve with it, Ed! Now I can die in peace

:D :D :D :p :D :D :D

No, wait, I wanted to understand Herve before I die...
 
yes ulrik, your avatar now has the same effect on me as alcohol, hyperventalation, standing up too fast, spiining myself in circles, watching window xp commercials, looking down from tall hieghts, certain medications, those little ducks at the carnival, extremely good looking women, playground merry go rounds, amusement park rides, lack of oxygen, hitting my head on something, certain illicit drugs, the never ending spinning beach ball, and various other things.
I still like amusement park rides and extremely good looking women. and your avatar. It is like the sun - i must be careful not to stare too long:D

i am glad there is Herve and you still have purpose in life;)
 
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