Jag + Radeon 8500 = slow window resize!!!

karavite

karavite

Registered
Okay, please tell me why with my just upgrading to 10.2 and just installing an ATI Radeon 8500 (a card that supports QE) this past week Mail, finder and IE windows (almost any window) still resizes slowly/jerky!!! I don't see any imporvement and am a little peeved, but before I jump to conclusions... ATI's site says 10.2 has its drivers included in 10.2 - is there something I need to adjust/set to use Quartz Extreme?

P.S. I have 1 GB of RAM and a G4 450.
 
Which did you do first?
ie - install the card or 10.2 first? If you installed the card.. then 10.2 you should be rockin' right? If it's the other way around, you may want to try to reinstall the drivers?

J5
 
I installed the card first - a few days ago and it works fine. Installed OS 10.2 today and no improvement - I can't install any drivers because there are none at ATI - they say they are in OS 10.2!

Please someone help!
 
It's hard to say with out seeing your system first hand, but I would tend to think that your G4 450 is the bottleneck rather than either the 8500 or Jag. Perhaps what you are seeing is the best that card can do on that system. If it were me I would test the card in another (preferably faster) Mac for comparison.
 
pianophile - thanks, but I have no other macs to test this on. I was thinking of trying a Radeon 9000 or some other card - I really think it is a driver issue.

You see, I have some reservations about the AGP G4 450 being too slow for non-jerky window resizing. Sure it is a little old, but come on (Apple - not you!), I just want windows to resize as fast as they do on a PC or as they did on my 68040 machine in 1993!!! That is all I really want!

I thought the whole idea of QE was to pass off screen rendering to the video card. Second, is a 450 really that old or slow? Here is what Apple's own site says and what sold me on 10.2 and the new video card:

You will detect a small improvement if you have a G3 processor. You will notice faster window redraws and scrolling if you have a G4 processor. They will be more remarkable if you have multiple G4 processors. But the real innovation in Jaguar comes with Quartz Extreme...

...Quartz Extreme uses a supported* graphics card built into your Mac to relieve the main PowerPC chip of on screen calculations. This dramatically improves system performance, making Jaguar much more responsive...

...Here’s how it works. Quartz uses the integrated OpenGL technology to convert each window into a texture, then sends it to the graphics card to render on screen. The graphics processor focuses on what it does best — graphics — freeing the Power PC chip to do more operations in the same amount of time. Everything is zippier...
Click to expand...

This card is a great card and is supported by QE. After my install ABSOLUTELY NOTHING is "zippier" than in 10.1.5 - nothing at all. Like I said, I'm betting it is a driver issue - but will ATI write a new driver soon? They actually told me they weren't sure when they would!!!

P.S. Does your user name suggest you play piano? If so, I recently inherited a 1966 Steinway M that has been babied for all it's life. Talk about technology that is truly worthy of praise!
 
P.S. Graphics are no zippier than before, but start up and application launching is greatly improved.
 
>I really think it is a driver issue.

Yes, that could easily be the case. 10.1.x has had lots of driver issues with Geforce4 MX & Ti cards, for instance. It would be sad but unsurprising if Jag continued the trend of video driver issues.

>P.S. Does your user name suggest you play piano?

Yes, I do. Congrats on your Steinway, you are indeed fortunate. Lovely instruments. I have a Baldwin spinet that sounds and feels good, and is of a size that is appropriate to my apartment, but nothing beats a nice Steinway. I hope one day to have the money (and the space) to get a Model D. Oh, yeah!
 
pianophile - I'm not sure I deserve this piano, but I am takng lessons and hope to be worthy some day! So you want a D! Wow! Who knows, maybe you can find a nice used one some day - what's the price of a new one - $60k?

Good luck and thanks for your advice. I do hope this is a driver issue, but now I'm worried you might be right. I love my G4 450 and we have had many good times, but if it can't handle window resizing I may just pop for a new G4 - it's really a shame because a G3 or G4 should be enough for most user demands. I just can't stand it any more (the jerky window thing).

If you have OfficeX notice how window resizing just shows an outline then draws the window when you release the mouse button. I don't mind that at all! Why can't Apple let users select this type of thing for all windows - like many Linux desktop environments do? Probably some complex reason with the architecture of OS X.... If any of you hot shot macosx programmers needs an idea for an application to write - how about this? I'd buy it!
 
>what's the price of a new one - $60k?

I think more like $80K! Used will be the only way for me, I think, though Steinways hold their value very well, so I will have to save my pennies for a long time either way.

>I do hope this is a driver issue, but now I'm worried you might be right. [...] it's really a shame because a G3 or G4 should be enough for most user demands.

Yeah, the demands the OS makes on a system increase all the time, and developers always program for the latest hardware. Frustrating, but 'twas ever thus. If I were you I'd sell the 450, go buy a nice new dual, and enjoy it. Even the newest low-end tower would be a big upgrade for you!
 
Yep, I'm thinking it is time to put the old G4 out to pasture - do have any idea what I could get for it? It has 1 GB or ram and 2 20 GB drives. Depending on what I will get I may take the 8500 out of it and swap it whatever card the new mac comes with (not sure if I would get a DP 867 or 1 GB)!

Have any ideas on a good price to sell my G4? PowerMax has used G4 450s for $959 without as much ram or the extra drive I have - that seems way too high or does it? Why would someone pay $1000 for a used Mac when they can get a new one that is 2 - 4 times as fast for $1700? Maybe $700 or so would be fair? (I'd throw in a Iomega 4x CD R/W external).
 
Hey,
I have a radeon 8500 and an AGP g4 400. I noticed the same thing as you with 10.2 window resizing is still just as bad as 10.1, however I did notice that minimzing is a lot faster in 10.2. I would not sell your G4 and wait untill ati makes new drivers specifically for 10.2. They might be better than the ones it ships with.

Oh and btw you might want to try overclocking your G4's bus to 133 mhz. It makes a big difference. My G4 is originally a 400, but I overclocked the bus to 133 so now its a 533, big difference. Its VERY easy to do, you just need to boot into open firmware. Here is the url with the instructions:
http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/G4ZONE/sawtooth/SawtoothCPUdesign.html

Follow the instructions on that page, very safe and easy, and if you want to revert back to the old settings just zap the pram ( apple + option + p + r).

Hope This helps...
 
Thanks Stephan - it is good to know that someone with a similar machine is having the same issue. I posted this issue in hardware and someone told me we probably won't see much of an improvement since the processor does most of the work in a window resizing - the 8500 can't help with it as it does with moves and minimize. Oh well, I do hope Apple gives us a system option to have only the outline of a window show during resize (like the old days and some *nix window managers - Office X does this).

I may try your over clock thing - are you SURE it is safe?

I don't think I will be getting a new computer soon - I just took a look at my bills and our savings toward buying a house - buy those toys when you are single!!! Besides, I think our computers (G4 400 - 500s) are more than enough for almost any task. They aren't dead yet and I feel bad for even thinking of selling this great machine all for smoother window resizing! It was a moment of passion...
 
Originally posted by pianophile
>I really think it is a driver issue.

I noticed an interesting thing when I installed the drivers for my Radeon 8500 (under 10.1.5). I got a message saying that if I installed the kernel extension, it would "reduce the security" (not the stability) of my system. Then I got the choice of not installing, fixing and installing, or just installing. I decided to fix and install.

Did anyone else get this message? I'm wondering if I should reinstall the drivers under 10.2, because I honestly didn't see much speed improvement over my Rage 128 Pro under OS X 10.1.5.
Click to expand...
 
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