Language and the internet: what's YOUR opinion?

simX

simX

Unofficial Mac Genius
So guys... I've been reading an interesting book called "Language and the Internet" by David Crystal -- it's actually quite good. I was wondering your guys' opinion on the topic.

What do you guys think about the effect that the internet is having on language, both in the way we write and the way we speak? Is the internet medium more related to speech or writing, does it have qualities of both, or is it inherently something of its own?

Other things to ponder in your response to this topic: do you think it's hard to perceive how a poster is "speaking", as in his emotions or what he is trying to convey. Do you think that it often happens that we misunderstand each other, or do you think we pretty much understand what the "writer" of the post is trying to convey? How about emoticons; do they add to the medium, or do they just muddy the waters even more?

I don't think this topic has been brought up before (and I hope that it will at least stay in this forum, because it IS general discussion -- at least leave a link to it from here, admin), but I wanted to know people's opinion on this topic. Anybody and everybody is encouraged to respond; I find this topic fascinating, and wanted to know what you all think. :)

Speak your mind! Don't try to answer every question I've posed -- just post what you find fascinating/think is interesting/take issue with/think is particularly misunderstood/etc. Anything related to the topic is fine. :)
 
there is a part of me that longs for the day we do this all on webcams. the other part says i don't want to get out of my bathrobe to do it:p

i think we constantly misunderstand each other. most of the time it gets worked out. sometimes the working it out only leads to more confusion. people will always project their own interpretations into any communication. the written word offers more chance of this than the spoken word. inflection and tone help to minimize it.

also, without visual cues, we don't know near as much about the writer. sometimes this is good. we learn to like people for who they are in their expression rather than the way they look. other times it gets in the way. we make assumptions about people that confuse the whole process of communication.

and since we are using English, well anybody that wants to communicate with me is, it is often hard to know just how well the other person understands it. Is the reason that they don't tell you everything because they don't know how, or is it that just like to speak in some internet language they and their friends have developed? or are they really as uneducated as they sound? or do they not understand me because i am using the wrong words given their mastery level?

I think one reason i like this site is because most people here attempt to communicate on a mature level without getting obnoxiously intellectual in the process. people are generally accepting of not understanding and are willing to discuss thru it.

for me, one of the more interesting aspects of the internet is not always what people say, but rather what they hide. what people hesitate to reveal is often as revealling as what they admit to.;)

oh, and smilies help :D
 
I'm currently reading "Digital Mantras" which is about the history of language and artistic forms such as music, and how these concepts will apply in the information world. It is fascinating reading, and talks a great deal about the sanskrit language, mythology, etc. Definitely worth a look if you see it in your library.

Ed, I have a morbid fear of webcams and dislike the telephone, so for now the internet is quite appealing, provided people take their time over their posts. IRC and SMS are a sheer nightmare and, I think, haven't added to the world's communication of ideas, but rather gotten in the way.

I wonder how much human language will have changed in 200 years time?
 
people misunderstand us even when we speak to them in real life if they don't know us well :p


It's all a amtter of getting used to people ;-)
 
Very cool topic simX.

Hey fiznutz, long to no write. Hope things are going well for you.

Ed and I have had a few discussions on this very topic and he's basically made my points clear in his post. The one thing I can add is the use of emoticons. I once had a disdain for them but now feel they make a reasonable attempt at describing basic facial expressions and help in bringing across ones true meaning (if there is such a thing). And Admiral brings up a good point as well in that sometimes, even with all the verbal and visual cues a person can give another during a conversation, there can still be times of misunderstanding. Getting to know what the different subtleties of verbal and visual cues are for people is part of getting to know someone and understanding them. Very interesting I think.
 
I think the internet has both helped and hurt language and communication in general...

Helped - by conveying our thoughts and emotions through written word I think it has helped foster language skills and creative expression

Hurt - shorthand and slang have hurt grammar (don't even get started on what it has done to mine :p ) and have made spellcheck and grammar check almost a necessity in real life

Antyime you express something to someone while not being in face to face contact with them, you run a high risk of being understood...so much of what we say is packaged in non-verbal communication that a lot of the times we don't even realize it (not to mention cultural differences in word meaning and tone). Communication is wonderfully complex and fascinating if you study the science of it.

As to the issue of emoticons...I love em :cool:
 
Antyime you express something to someone while not being in face to face contact with them, you run a high risk of being understood...
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Izzy has expressed my greatest fear here:p
 
hahahahaha...touche Ed...got me there...

hey...I guess that just proves my point of the hurt part :p

I hate when that happens...all that thought is wasted now...darn! LOL
 
Ed, I have to agree with you on this thread 100%. Well said.

And I was rofl when I read what you said about webcams.

One day we were all eating at the table, and my sister stands up and says something like 'B R B in 2mins". then she gets up, and goes to the bathroom. My parents didn't get it. I got it, but I thought it was kinda sad too.

I've noticed Ed that you don't use very many upper case letters when you write here. Just wondering, do you do that elsewhere, or just on the internet? I think its a neat style.
 
Kilowatt - the caps (or lack thereof) is about half unintentional. I don't know what it is about browsers, but they don't seem to accept the shift as quickly. When i use a word processor they show up fine. so a lot of the time i just don't bother anymore. when i think it really makes a difference, i try to slow down and make the effort. It also reminds me of the poetic style of e.e. cummings and that is a positive association in my mind.

Once a troll complained about it so i made special efforts to use caps for him. and then he never came back.:( ;)

I often wonder if people have trouble with my lack of pronouns at beginnnings of sentences (habit from doing chart notes) and my practice of starting new sentences with 'and'. I try to keep it to a minimum but these are bad habits when writing informally. Even when i write school papers i have to go back and carefully edit to make sure i don't do that.:p
 
my brother and I sometimes do that when we talk on the phone .. we started out just making fun of people who type like that (I really only use BTW and LOL) but now it's kind of fun. We always bust out a "Hi 2 U" or "ROFLMAO" in the middle of conversation.

As for everyday internet use, I really strive to use proper English when talking on AOL, forums or email. And I really don't like when people use '2' instead of 'to' or 'U' instead of 'you.' I don't know why, I guess I just think it's immature. It probably has something to do with school where I get docked hard for not speaking or typing well ...

As for speakers trying to portray mood in their writing, I do find it rather difficult when typing an email to someone I don't know that well. Usually sarcasm is the hardest to use. These forums make it really nice with the smilies ... and using the text smilies in emails is okay as well, but that's not always appropriate.
 
I once unleashed a literal troll on a chat group. His name was Dox and he lived under a bridge in the land of Alad'Dur. He enjoyed destroying villages and eating billy-goats. I am half tempted to revive him, as he was a very popular member of the boards ...
:D
 
hmm, i don't know if RacerX is ready for a literal troll.:eek:


so other than those who have webcam phobia, are there any other people who think that spending osme time getting to know each other via web cam would help reduce misunderstandings? Could some kind of relationship be established this way that would help inform our words?

note - research has shown that we are more comfortable with long distance communications such as on the telephone or letters when we have mental image to hold as we communicate to the person. Perhaps when we at least post our pics in the non tech thread we are acknowledging that. I know that i feel a little more connected to people who post their pics there and let me know who i am conversing with. at least when that person has not established a very strong relationship thru words.

so i guess another question would be - does posting pics of ourselves help bridge that gap?
 
I think posting pics of yourself definately give the conversation a more personal feel. You can tell a lot about a person just by seeing a pic of them (usually).
 
I dunno...

Personally, I feel quite the opposite in terms of pictures on the internet. I prefer to leave what the person looks like to my imagination and I almost never post my picture on the internet either (and I have had probably only one picture of myself on the net at any time, and both -- yes only twice has my pic been up -- have been taken down).

Personally, I kind of want to establish a relationship with the person that is not really based on judgments based on pictures. I know, personally, from reactions that I am conscious of, that I quickly make judgments about people when I see their picture, and sometimes my opinion of them is totally turned around. I like to have some anonymity on the net.

I'll bet a lot of you would be quite surprised as to how I act in real life, actually (of course, Ed has already met me). I have to say that I am much shier and don't offer my opinion in discussions or casual conversation nearly as often as I do on the net in bulletin board discussions and such.

No one else finds this to be true?
 
I have to say that I am much shier and don't offer my opinion in discussions or casual conversation nearly as often as I do on the net in bulletin board discussions and such.
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Like Sim said, I have met him and i would have to give him credit for having some self awareness and honesty when he says this. At the risk of offending Sim though, i will relate my perceptions of him before, during and after meeting him.

Before - i started out thinking he was a pretty arrogant snot nosed intellectual who thinks he knows everything. But there was something about his self assuredness and joking demeanor i liked just the same. Now once he lost the ibook bet to me and i knew i would be meeting him, i checked out his web site. It was a very different person than the one i knew here. much more self reflective and talking about adjusting to college and showed me a really neat person that i started to look forward to meeting. BUT..his full name is Simone. and i had only ever heard of girls named Simone. So i thought he was a girl. and i used to picture his posts as being from a girl and with a girls voice. then one day he posted to a thread and did a little third person narrative about himself using the pronoun "he". so i was really confused. he could have still been a girl not wanting to reveal herself among all the maleness of this site. but i gradually went back to seeing him as a he. i also was having a lot of fun joking with him about losing the bet and he took it very well. a good sport if ever i saw one.
during - physically much smaller (thin) than i had imagined. very friendly looking. nice smile. but just like he described himself. I had to ask a lot of questions to get him to talk much. We were walking around the exhibits at MWSF and the only thing that really got him talking were some specific product booths we passed. He does get excited about Omniweb;) in general i liked him, enough so that i invited him to get together again after his conferences. alas that plan got fouled up in between when we parted and when we were to rejoin. His reason for not making it was a reasonable one.
after - i have felt a much great affinity for SimX. I know that when i picture him posting , it is a real version of him. He is a person i like and occasionally find something interesting to talk to about. (like this thread) I know he is not arrogant at heart. I also know he is very smart. I look forward to getting together with him again and eventually getting my pastry and coffee. Frankly my impressions of him were improved by real world contact with him. the more dimensions i was exposed to, the more i liked him.

just one other note about people's pics here - rather than having people's pics change my mind about them, my relationships with the people have changed how i view their pics. Testuser and i have been kidding each other about looks some lately. at least for me, it has all been done with great affection. I think there is a certain trust that we have in each other on this site that makes posting pics ok. and a positive experience. or to put it another way - there is noone who has posted their pic here that i would be upset about sharing a jail cell with:D
 
Meine Meinung ist ganz einfach hierzu: Das Internet ist als Kommunikationstool weitgehend textbasiert. Allerdings glaube ich kaum, dass die Menschen deswegen die Sprache weiter entwickeln. Im Gegenteil verarmt sie. Nur meine zwei Rappen hierzu.

:)
 
obviously Fryke was not attempting to communicate with me:p

so Scott, when are we going to see your pic?;)
 
One day, humankind will reach up torwards the heavens and take hold of the holy grail of the internet. Until that day, we will all live in confusion. You know what I'm taking about...

THE SARCASM EMOTICON


:D ;) :p :cool: :)
 
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