Open-mindedness

MDLarson

Registered
Does a person seem "close-minded" to somebody else who disagrees with them? If one finds a truth to be The Truth, does that make them close-minded? If a person doesn't care about anything does that make them open-minded? Is open-mindedness a myth, or is it just subjective?

My signature has been:
"The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." -G. K. Chesterton

I'm going to change it soon, but I still believe it to be true.

Disclaimer:
I don't want to argue too much here; I just want to chat.
 
If a person decides that "The Truth" is beyond all criticism, and will be true in all instances, they are setting themselves up to be soundly lashed by a tongue.

Nothing is universal like that, and it would be ignorant to simply accept something as the unquestionable truth. Sure, it is fine to believe in something as "The Truth", but to abandon all logic in pursuit of keeping that truth alive, as least inside yourself, is a folly.

There are things such as opinions, which are just manifestations of emotions. There are both logical resons to be against and for abortion. It is these inner emotions that make the true choice. As long as we know that we are deciding with our emotions and not with our minds, we'll all be fine. Once we begin to try and impress our own personal emotions upon others we will run into trouble, and be called closed minded and stubborn.

I've presented a few different ideas here I guess, but here's the main gist:
Latching onto an idea is fine, but once you decide to defend that idea at all costs, without logic, that is when you become closed minded, which is defintely a bad thing.
 
I believe in absolute truth... anything less is simply lukewarm.

Think about this...

We are standing out in a yard and I point to a tree and call it an "Oak-Tree". You on the other hand reply... Admin, that is not a tree at all, but that is a cow. So, I take the time to teach you and show you that not only is it a tree, but it is an Oak Tree and I bring forth documentation to prove it is a tree.

You on the other hand, look at me and say... "Admin, you are so close minded as to not consider the possibilities."

To me, why are you so close-minded to not seek the truth.

Admin
 
Originally posted by Matrix Agent
If a person decides that "The Truth" is beyond all criticism, and will be true in all instances, they are setting themselves up to be soundly lashed by a tongue.
Not if it's true! If they are "soundly lashed by a toungue", it is only because of bad debate skills. A wrong person can still win a debate.
 
But from the philisophical point of view, which is what I think Matt is trying to get at, I believe that nothing can be completely universoal. For sure, everyone can have their convictions and morals, but isn't there an extreme or scenerio in which they just don't work.

Don't get the idea that I have no morals or no philisophical ideals, but I also believe that if one cannot bend, then they will break.
 
Basically... you could look at this...

Many people will say that the church is full of hypocrites. It would be hard to disagree with a saying that their ARE hypocrites in the church, but not all church goers are hypocrites.

Now, a true statement would be, all church goes are sinners. Now, some might say that hypocrites are sinners, therefore, the church is full of hypocrites.

That is simply crazy.

First and foremost, one can "teach" the ideal, while not following the ideal themselves. Many of you have given reports in school on places you have never been before. Does that make you a hypocrite, not at all.

Being open-minded means... being open to the truth, even if that truth may not be the way you currently believe. However, the world sees open-minded as being open to MY view point, and those who are usually "crying for open-mindedness" are they themselves by their very nature and teaching, close minded.

I consider myself very open-minded, however I also believe that the truth is very narrow. And yes... one who is completely wrong can win a debate, if the one who knows the truth is either not sure of it, or doesn't know enough about it, or the opposing view to defend their stand.

<just stirring the pot>

Admin :)
 
well said Admin and MDLarson.

and for my money, 'wrong' people win debates all the time. because its true, its a test of debating skills.
 
My truth is not your truth. I have perceptions and ideas and feelings, which all contribute to me believing something to be true. How can I expect your perceptions and ideas and feelings to coincide exactly with mine?

I may say that this is a dogcow ("Moof!") but your perceptions see it as a fire engine. As individuals, we each have a drastically different idea of truth than anyone else. As a society, we try to find common ground on which to be able to relate to each other.

In other words. As a society, we have decided (at least in English speaking societies) that things that are colored green should be called "green". That is a form of truth. But what if I decided that in my personal mind, I called that green thing "Spork"? That would be my truth. And my perception of the "Spork" colored thing has not changed, it is still the same thing that everyone else calls green. Whose truth is true? (Hint: both)

In time, with much talk and examples, you may convince me that some of your truths are more reasonable than mine, and I may adopt your truths. It's hard to talk about "Spork" colored things. People don't understand. But there are a great many of my truths which you will never change my mind about. This is not close mindedness! If I listen to all of your points, and try as hard as I can to understand what you are saying about your truths, I can still decide to disagree with you.

One of my favorite quotes can be mangled to apply here. The original quote is something like this:
Either we are alone in the universe [a.k.a. no other intelligent life], or we are not. Either way, the prospect is staggering.
Mangled version:
Either there is a God and a life after death, or there is not. Either way, the prospect is staggering.

The very nature of humanity, in my opinion, prevents us from ever finding a "universal" truth.

(There. That ought to provoke some replies!)

Disclaimer:No offense is implied or should be inferred. Religion is a very sticky wicket when it comes to debate, since so many people are so very enthusiastic about their beliefs. But if you listen to my point of view and still disagree with me, I will still call you 'friend'. If you listen to my point of view and change your mind on account of what I said, I'll call you whatever you want to be called. If you don't spend the time to listen, I will call you narrowminded.
 
I think that we are all going to look at this from our own personal perspective no matter what... which is how it should be.

Admins argument are not that different from ones I have used myself. I have often said that faith for me is like saying the sky is red. I see a blue sky that others tell me is red. I am then told that I can have salvation if I just believe that the sky is red. The problem for me is that in my heart I know the sky is blue.

An alternative way for people of faith to look at this is to consider your faith a gift of inner sight. I could never be upset with someone who is blind not understanding things that sighted people take for granted, and people of faith should not think ill of others that don't share your gift.

Faith and belief are not thinks that can be changed by argument... only personal experience.

As for having an open mind, the only people who don't have an open mind are the ones who know the truth and hide it from others because it would mean that they were wrong.
 
originally said by the wizard of administration
one who is completely wrong can win a debate, if the one who knows the truth is ... not sure of it ....

i have a hard time with this one line because i believe that when one knows the truth, then they are sure of it. the problem is that the truth can't always be supported by logic and reasoning or even verabal communication for that matter.

originally said by my friend who recently got his own congrats thread
as for having an open mind, the only people who don't have an open mind are the ones who know the truth and hide it from others because it would mean that they were wrong.

i tend to see this the opposite, those who feel they must tell everybody what the truth is are the ones least sure of it. those who can walk securely and quietly with their truths to themselves have probably got a better grasp on the truth and the ability to open their minds to how others' perceptions relate to that truth.

but let me regress and cover broader ground now. 1st i must say that i believe there are no absolute truths in this world. There are personal truths, shared truths and supposed truths as well as assumed truths. There are lots of lies masquerading as truths. There are also many levels of truths that we move thru as we go thru life and gain more gradual understanding.

And anything that is absolute truth must by definition contain all these other truths. So what we get in this world is only bits and pieces of the absolute. But without the bits and pieces, the whole could not exist. so each of the pieces is still very important. yet each of us is capable of only holding so many truths at once. No one can know all these truths at once unless they have reached what the Buddhists refer to as enlightenment. And in order to move in the linear progression of our lives, we need to ascertain some things so that we can function. our ability to know these things adds to our level of confidence in operating in the world. Still , we never know when a challenge to these truths might occur.

but all this talk about truth is still only incidental to the issue of open and closed mindedness. I think Phil was on the right track when he talked about closed mindedness being when you shut yourself off from any new information and stop trying to use your logic and reason. When you attempt to make your own paradigm fit the new information rather than seeing what paradigm the information suggests. this is a matter of something known as flexibility in psychological terms. When one is flexible (open minded), one will adapt one's old views to the new situation. When one is inflexible, one will repeatedly try to fit the new situation to one's views, never listening to others and rigidly maintaining that if you just keep doing things the same way then everything will be ok, because it has always worked before. Probalby the number one thing therapists work with is making people more flexible. Getting them to unlearn their truths that used to work for them and learn new ones that will work now that they and their world have changed. What is true for any one person at any one time, may not be true for them at any other time. Yet people tend to repeat actions that have carried truth in the past. Learing and unlearning truths is an important part of life and growth. I certainly hope that i have picked up some new truths by this time next year and discarded some of the ones that are working against me more than for me.

And since we seem to be using religion as some sort of example of Truth around which minds are either open or closed ( an artifact of another thread i think), then let me propose an example. At a certain point in our development we believe whatever our parents tell us. so if they are Christians or Muslims or whatever, then we are too. Their truths are our truths. At some point we find a flaw in one of their so called truths -eg, we go out with wet hair and don't die of pneumonia We begin to question all their truths. we find out that fire still burns and a hammer to the thumb still hurts. But we also find out that there are other ways of perceiving things in the world. There are other ways of viewing God. Maybe we explore. maybe we worry that God will hurt a lot worse than the hammer if we stray and so we continue to believe out of fear. Or maybe we have a personal experience that somehow points us in the right direction, either back on the road we were on or else travelling a new one. At any one point on this journey we need a guiding Truth. But that is all it can be - a guide. Because tomorrow we may have a new experience that opens a new guiding Truth to us and then nothing is like it was yesterday. But to use a Christian example of the importance of keeping an open mind, remember that Jesus had his moments of doubt. Truth that is never questioned by it's holder becomes stale and useless. It is not faith, it is a defense against fear. One must face and question one's fears in order the strengthen one's Truthes. The minute one loses the ability to do that, then one loses their true faith.

:)
 
Originally posted by MDLarson
If one finds a truth to be The Truth, does that make them close-minded?

Yes, that's pretty much a definition of closed-mindedness. Here I am assuming that The Truth cannot change, and would be held to be true even in the face of irrefutable evidence to the contrary.

If your mind is open, then it must be open to things that potentially contradict any of your beliefs.

Closed mindedness could be defined as an unwillingness to examine new evidence or new arguments that contradict one's beliefs, and to revise or completely reject those beliefs if the evidence empirically proves them unsound (or the arguments logically proves them unsound).

If you would sooner reject logic or the evidence of your senses than change your mind about X, then you are closed-minded regarding X. That is, certain statements or sensory observations are rejected, not because there is logical grounds to reject them, but rather because they contradict X, and there is no logical grounds for their rejection.
 
Originally posted by Ed Spruiell
1st i must say that i believe there are no absolute truths in this world.
Are you sure of that? Absolutely sure? ;)

René Descartes said this:
"Cogito ergo sum", or "I think therefore I am"*.
I understand this to mean that at least I, as a person, exist. For as long as I fulfill the definition of existance, no one can rightly say that I don't exist, simply because they choose not to believe it. I think that would be an example of an absolute truth.

Let us, for the moment, assume that there is Absolute Truth. More questions pop up:
Is it discoverable? (Can a person seize on it?) Can Absolute Truth change?

Now realize that an religion has not yet entered into the picture. I'm just talking about a truth that is true always, for every person. It wouldn't matter if that person believed it or not, it would still be true.

I haven't forgot about open-mindedness and all that, but this is worth talking about for now, I think.

*Apple used a variation of this quote for the debut of the original iMac: "I think, therefore iMac" :D
 
posted by Matt
I understand this to mean that at least I, as a person, exist. For as long as I fulfill the definition of existance, no one can rightly say that I don't exist, simply because they choose not to believe it. I think that would be an example of an absolute truth.

Actually anyone can say the you may not exist, but you can rest assured that you exist. The truth that you have of your existance does not provide proof of that existence to others.


Let us, for the moment, assume that there is Absolute Truth. More questions pop up:
Is it discoverable? (Can a person seize on it?) Can Absolute Truth change?

I think a more interesting question is to what lengths are you, personally, willing to go towards an understanding of anything (in this case the nature of existance which calls into question why is the universe the way it is). I, personally, have never taken the easy path of relying on others to have provided the effort needed to gain knowledge. This is because knowledge can only be mastered by taking the time to discover it yourself. I have questions about why we (and the universe) are here that most people would leave to either the scientist or the theologians, but would never invest the personal time to discover themselves.

Lets, for a moment not look at religion, but look at aspects of the physical world around us. The world that we live in is very Newtonian in nature, consequently we relate things to that comfortable understanding of nature. In our Newtonian world gravity and electromagnetism are forces of nature. But with a far deeper understanding of the geometry and topology of the universe, we can see that no forces are actually in play. Gravitation is a distortion of Minkowski space-time and electromagnetism is a connection on a phase space that has the properties of a Lie group.

The point here is that the last sentence of that paragraph represents 9 years of hard studying of both mathematics and physics (mathematics being something that most physicist are actually very weak in, so the last part of the sentence would be lost on many of them) to make that knowledge mine. I can describe to you in great detail what it is I am talking about, but most of it would be lost because it requires discovery on your part.

Then there is the social aspect of trying to find out about the universe we live in. I know that I am not going to see any answers to the big questions in my lifetime. Anything I do represents the smallest of steps down a path of discovery. We, as a race, have wander down dead ends before, only to back track and find our way once again. The point is, then, not the final discovery... it is playing a part in the journey of discovery that matters.

Now realize that an religion has not yet entered into the picture. I'm just talking about a truth that is true always, for every person. It wouldn't matter if that person believed it or not, it would still be true.

Religion does not rely on facts, or proof, it is a faith. You have faith in that what you believe is the truth, but you have no facts that can be given to others. What you believe maybe true, it maybe partially true, or it maybe completely wrong... the point is that without actual facts it remains a faith.

The interesting thing to note is that some people with a weak faith need others to believe in the same thing they do to reinforce that belief. I feel no need to convert anyone to what I believe, because anyone blindly believing in the same thing I do without having my experiences would have to rest that belief on the efforts of others. My beliefs are unique and my own, and I am quite secure in them. I know that they are clouded by having been created from my own perspective, but not any more or less than anyone else's beliefs are clouded by their own personal perspectives (unless we are talking about mental illness, but that is another subject).
 
first, what a shame that we had to bring poor Descartes into this. I haven't the time nor the resources to explain here why Descartian linear models are extremely limited in their application and that if we closed our minds to anything after him we would be farther from the truth than we currently are. RacerX pointed on e limitation of the simplistic "i think therefore i am' . I would also offer this - if that were true, then would you cease to be if you cease to think? do you 'think' 24 hrs a day? Are you aware of thinking (or anything else for that matter) the entire time you are sleeping? So do you cease to exist during that time?;)

next, i'm not absolutely sure of anything. and the nice thing is that i have no need to be. as long as i keep my mind open to the possibility that something more exists that i am not yet aware of, then i keep myself ready for each day's discoveries. since i can't be absolutley sure of anything, i can be ok with never being sure about the things we cannot know.

last, in response to RacerX's exception for mental illness - it may be that what we sometimes identify as mental illness is really someone who sees the new truth while all others have closed their minds on some agreed upon truth. 'truth' can be a great defense mechanism. ;)
 
Descartes is down the pub with his mate Derrick, who says "fancy another pint?" The somewhat inebriated Descartes replies "I think not" and disappears...

OK, now to answer Matt's original post:

Originally posted by MDLarson
Does a person seem "close-minded" to somebody else who disagrees with them? If one finds a truth to be The Truth, does that make them close-minded?
My 2 pennies Sterling:

By capitalizing "The Truth", I assume you are referring to a high and absolutely inviolable truth that can not be refuted. Whilst I think such truths must exist (there must be correct answers to some questions), I also think that humans can never know if their belief is true in this absolute sense.

Someone who believes an opinion of theirs to be in accordance with "The Truth" is, in my opinion, arrogant in their degree of self confidence.

Taking this back to the theme of "The Truth" referring to whether there is a God, I can conceive of no evidence, even a personal visitation, that could convince me either way. I therefore regard people who believe themselves to be privy to the absolute truth as to whether god exists, be it that they think so (e.g. the Pope) or think not (e.g. Richard Dawkins) to be close-minded.

I do not however, think it is bad to be close-minded. If an absolute belief in God makes somebody happier than any alternative belief, then I think it best that they have such a belief. It is only when these beliefs begin to detrimentally affect others (e.g. the Crusades), that close-mindedness becomes bad.

Bernie :eek:)
 
I guess I was trying to be more philosophical about the matter of there being an absolute Truth, any truth. I understand René's quote to be applicable in the discussion of relativism, because at least when an individual exists, that is a starting point of a firm foundation with which to base other conclusion on.

I don't mean to take Descartes' quote any further than what he said, that he himself believed he existed because he had thought. Whether or not he thought all the time or ceased to think is irrelevant, because the fact is he thought at at least one moment in time, and for that moment in time, he quite simply, existed. Bla bla bla…

I fear this discussion got too bungled up too fast. Are we just making our fingers and brains sweaty, or are we learning and expanding our minds?!?! ;)
 
I don't know, but i liked Bernie's Descartes'joke.:D

what did you want to learn? how could we be more "philosophical"? I am once more lost as to what you were expecting?

but consider that expectations are part of a closed mindset. because you have already delineated out the parameters within which you believe the future discussion should go then you have closed your mind to all the directions it could go.
 
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