Proud to be

[ksv]

There seems to be a culture uniqe to the US called "patrotism".
The only partiots I know of here are the skinheads beating up people from ethnic minorities. And the only ones waving Norwegian flags without old German symbols on them are brainwashed kids on our independence day and football supporters trying to do something with theit lives. "I'm proud to be an American" - I almost have to laugh every time I hear it. I get immediate associations to "I'm proud to watch the worlds most biased news TV channels playing Wolfenstein 3D music in the background while transmitting pictures of Iraqis being killed live" or "I'm proud be richer than 95% of the world population and don't care about anyone else but myself and my successful family" or "I'm proud to be a part of the worlds only imperialist superpower, using fascist methods to recruit soliders to bomb nations where we can earn money on killing some people". The USA is "freeing the world from communism and oppression", right? Well, that's exactly the same as uncle Hitler did. Just realise it all you American patriots - you're all a part of another world revolution. "It might take hundreds of years before someone with high enough intelligence will ever understand my works and try depeloping them further, Nikola Tesla, inventor of AC power, x-ray, radio waves and 700 other patented technologies said before he died in 1943 - it only took 60 years before we had a power-hungry "democratically elected" state leader trying to "create world peace".
Proud to be an American? Well, I'm more proud to be an asshole.

 

[Darkshadow]

Hmm, the sarcasm is growing thick in here.

Err...and what's this 60 years bit? The US has been around a little longer than that. Why would you date something like that from 1943? It's not like the president and when Tesla died have anything in common at all.

The president can only be the president for so long, and no wishing it otherwise will get him anywhere. No American is going to stand for that law to change. He can be around for 8 years max. Maybe he'll be re-elected. I can't say. I know I won't vote for him, but I also didn't the first time around. I had had enough of him as the governor of Texas to try voting for him.

Let's see...I don't watch TV often, never watch the freakin news or read the newspapers around here, I've never even seen the Wolfenstein 3D game, much less heard the music, nor have I ever transmitted pictures of Iraqis (dead, alive, or in between). What kinda sicko would?

Rich? Hah, I wish I was. After paying my bills, I have $200 left over. Then I buy food to eat, I have less than half that to myself. I live paycheck to paycheck. Rich? If I was, I could get out of this debt I'm in - which isn't from credit cards or the like, I've never had one. It's because I value paying for a place to live and something to eat over paying my bills if I have to, and I've had to plenty of times.

Think I've made it clear that I think GW is an idiot and that the war was a dumbass idea, but believe what you want. I can't change what you want to think.

Err...and who talks about communism anymore? Besides maybe habilis. I hadn't even thought about it in years before it was brought up in whatever thread that was. Fighting against oppression is a worthy thing, though there's better ways to go about it than bombing the hell out of someone over it.

World revolution...phaw! Are you just wanting to piss someone off for the fun of it? It seems that way...

And after saying all of that, yes, I am proud to be an American. It's where I live. That doesn't mean I'm proud of everything it does, or even agree with everything it does. I'll bet you're proud of your country! How is it any different for me to be proud of mine?

 

[symphonix]

Well, KSV, sometimes I feel the same way when I see American patriotism at its most ponderous.

It would be allright if it were countered by the occassional bout of shame, but it isn't.

Generally, I'm proud to be an Australian most of the time, but I'm quite often ashamed to be an Australian ... when I look at the way my country treats refugees, or aboriginals.

 

[Giaguara]

ksv, the white conservatives tend to be that ... the non-white seem to be that less, and seem to be even more liberal. here in some parts of the city there is a huge difference ... in some zones there is nor flags nor antiwar stuff, then in some streets threre are mainly US flags, in other "no iraq war" signs. if i was living in one of those US flag zones, i'd probably hang "f*ck the war" - sign outside the window ...

 

[toast]

Paradoxically, the neo-colonialist attitude you describe ("Just realize it all you American patriots - you're all a part of another world revolution.") is part of what Charles Tayor calls 'multiculturalism'...

 

[anerki]

I stand by what Symphonix says. I'm proud to be Belgian overall, we have lots to be proud of: Fries, Highest living standard in the world, Best social security system and health care system I know, ... But we often make an ass of ourselves because of our foreign politics. The problem is Belgium is extremely democratic, meaning there is never a >50% majority. Meaning you get several leading groups of politicians ... But not one gets more than 33% let's say ...

 

[marz]

It took something like 30 years for Iraq to be rid of Sadaam Hussein, it'll only take the U.S. 4 years to be rid of George W. Bush...

Please be patient with us, we haven't been ourselves lately.

 

[ksv]

Darkshadow:

Err...and what's this 60 years bit? The US has been around a little longer than that. Why would you date something like that from 1943? It's not like the president and when Tesla died have anything in common at all.

Sorry, should have been "before we had another state leader trying to create world peace".

Let's see...I don't watch TV often, never watch the freakin news or read the newspapers around here(...)

So where do you get your news?

nor have I ever transmitted pictures of Iraqis (dead, alive, or in between). What kinda sicko would?

Well, that's actually the problem. TV channels are only showing Americans shooting at Iraqis - not Iraqis being killed and civilian apartments being bombed by mistake. Neither do they show Iraqis protesting against US actions or demanding them to get out of Iraq - only happy pro-American people with American flags. It's the same way here - a national newspaper had a picture showing two Arabians with an American flag and the text "The Americans are recieved as heroes". Later it was leaked that they were actually from Kuwait.

Incidents like that make people believe wrong things. Media has great power, and it doesn't make it much better that they are controlled by capitalism and market forces.

Rich? Hah, I wish I was. After paying my bills, I have $200 left over. Then I buy food to eat, I have less than half that to myself. I live paycheck to paycheck. Rich? If I was, I could get out of this debt I'm in - which isn't from credit cards or the like, I've never had one. It's because I value paying for a place to live and something to eat over paying my bills if I have to, and I've had to plenty of times.

I said richer. Fact is you're a lucky person. Take a trip down in Sudan and you'll see what I mean. 5-20 million people are going to die the next months by hunger because of draught. Did you hear about that in the news?

Err...and who talks about communism anymore? Besides maybe habilis. I hadn't even thought about it in years before it was brought up in whatever thread that was.

The most actual "communist regime" right now is North Korea - just wait a month or two and what Bush will be talking about is North Korea and nokiller, errm, nuclear weapons.
The problem about communism is that the first person who thought he was able to realize it, Lenin, obviously very badly misunderstood the basic principles. Look at the nations which claim to be "communist" now - you'll see that there's one object too much - the dictator. It's like Saddam claiming Iraq to be a democracy, really.

World revolution...phaw! Are you just wanting to piss someone off for the fun of it? It seems that way...

In what way would that be offensive to anyone? World revolution could be both bad or good - for this one I don't really know...

And after saying all of that, yes, I am proud to be an American. It's where I live. That doesn't mean I'm proud of everything it does, or even agree with everything it does. I'll bet you're proud of your country! How is it any different for me to be proud of mine?

Hence I think you're discussing just for disagreeing, because I seem anti-american to you
I'm not - but to me being proud of a nation also means being proud of the authorities and what they do. That's how our western form of "democracy" works, and why I'm anarchist. There are always people who disagree in authorities' actions, but their voices aren't necessarily heard. And it should be pretty self-explaining that mixing democracy and capitalism doesn't work very well.

And no, I'm not proud of Norway at all. The government is a bunch of morons doing nothing but cutting budgets and enjoying their authority, I can't stand the climate here, Norwegian traditions are oppresive, and people here simply do not seem to have their own opinions. Pretty typical human I guess, and I don't understand how one could be proud of that

 

[Darkshadow]

No, I wasn't posting to disagree

I get my news more from word of mouth than anything else. I do visit some news sites from outside the US, though not very often. This may seem like I don't actually get any news, but I actually do stay on top of things (mostly). I may not hear about some things till later than others, but not often.

Your comments about being richer would go for most European nations as well. So what exactly is your point on that?

If Bush actually tried doing something against North Korea, I think there'd be lots of opposition to it here in the US. Vietnam wasn't so far back that people here have forgotten it - I don't think too many would want to give it a try again.

As to the pride part, I see where the disagreement is. I believe it to be pride in the culture, not pride in the politics of the nation. I, too, believe the government of the US is run by morons.

 

[fryke]

I guess some sort of patriotism is inside everyone. I wouldn't call myself a patriot, not at all in fact, but still - if someone attacks my country with words, flames our people, whatever: I'll still get a strange feeling of defense, I guess.

However, it seems that the 'free' US people don't get to see and hear many unbiased news, really. If you listen to word of mouth, you'll basically hear a biased version of a biased version of the news. I think the only way to get news is to try and balance your sources. It's not that CNN fakes everything or something like that. They leave out certain things. Just as the Arabian news. Just as BBC does, too, or any Swiss newspaper or TV station for that matter. The important thing is to balance things. To never blindly believe before having heard 'the other side'. And to apply some common sense.

For example, I hate news that go like that: "A building in New York exploded yesterday. No links to Al Quaida could be found." Which _of course_ reminds people 'who are the bad guys' and CREATE a link. Out of nowhere, really. It's just an example, though, and I made it up, too. But ever since 9-11, I've been hearing 'news' like this. And if you hear them enough, you'll believe almost any terrorist attack is from Al Quaida, although each time there actually HASN'T been a link. Media are powerful. Please never forget to also think for yourself.

Okay, this is majorly off-topic, but I didn't want to create yet another thread...

 

[anerki]

Originally posted by Darkshadow
I get my news more from word of mouth than anything else. I do visit some news sites from outside the US, though not very often. This may seem like I don't actually get any news, but I actually do stay on top of things (mostly). I may not hear about some things till later than others, but not often.

Liar, you get your news from The Cafe @ Macosx.com

 

[Randman]

I find it interesting that most of the posts in this are those from outside North America.
I'm a Yank who's been working abroad for a few weeks short of 3 years now, so I think I have some experience seeing it from both sides of the fence.
First of all, I am proud to be an American. I'm not jingoistic or a flag-waver (though I did proudly put a NYPD cap on my termy at work after 9-11).
I don't think my country is perfect, I think it has many flaws in it, but I still try and believe that the manner and purpose in which my country of birth was founded was for good reasons: So people could live in freedom (even though that history has been tainted by human greed and stupidity, both of which that have no boundaries as far as creed, sex, beliefs or nationality.
Much of the patriotism is taught. Schoolbooks teach us how we fought oppression from the British and other European nations as much as it taught us of our role in World War I and II. We stand for the national anthem before games (and Canada's, depending on the teams).
Geography and language also have something to do it. Americans may be from different states, but there is a nationalistic identity that other regions don't have just because of the sheer size of the country.
And there is a US-against-them feeling at times because America is an easy target because of its size and dominance, be it warranted or not.
I think criticism is fair and indeed healthy, but only if it's fair and accurate. To say one knows America and Americans from watching Friends and CNN and The Matrix and listening to Eminem and eating at McDonald's while driving home in a Ford so they can play with their Mac is simplistic.
That's liek saying I know Aussies from watching Crocodile Dundee, or the French from watching Clouseau movies or Italians from The Godfather series.
If people were to use such generalities for all of Europe, Or Australasia, people would laugh and laugh. Well, I'd say people in Sydney and London have more in common with those from New York, San Francisco and Los Angeles than people in those American cities do with people living in places like Deming, New Mexico, or Hot Springs, Arkansas, or Georgetown, South Carolina.
Someone from Minneapolis can identify more with some from Toronto, Canada, then they can from a person who lives in Honolulu.
If you don't like watching American newscasts, switch to BBC (though it's much the same, isn't it?) or Al-Jeezera. And don't forget that it's Rupert Mudoch who owns the Fox News network.
I personally think it's a good thing to proud of where you came from as much as where you live. I have problems with many aspects of my current city (Singapore), but I can appreciate it as well. Otherwise, I wouldn't be here.
Those flag-waving fringe lunatics may have their heads screwed on a little too tight, but are they any worse than those who criticize others for being proud of their history? Perhaps people should look more at themselves for their own lack of patriotism first, rather than trying to mock and knock down others for their beliefs...

 

[fryke]

And don't forget that if pride shuts your eyes from objectivity, you might want to remove those shades sometimes. I tend to think this way: If somebody tells me I'm TOTALLY wrong, there are three possibilities, and the third one is often the truth: 1) HE/SHE is totally wrong, 2) He/She is right, I'm wrong, 3) the fact that even one person thinks I'm totally wrong should show me that I'm at least not totally right. I should therefore take a step back and look at the big picture from as many positions as possible.

Patriotism is certainly something that is 'okay', but if it turns to blind pride - as it often does - it's not only counterproductive (people think the US are too proud and blind, US people react with blind pride, how can that work out well?) but rather descructive in most cases.

 

[Randman]

Patriotism is certainly something that is 'okay', but if it turns to blind pride - as it often does - it's not only counterproductive (people think the US are too proud and blind, US people react with blind pride, how can that work out well?) but rather descructive in most cases.

What's wrong with being patriotic? It's the manner in which some people perceive as being patriotic that can be a problem. It's like democracy. In theory, it's an excellent idea. In practice, well it oftens suffers from the foibles and weaknesses of those who claim to be enforcing it.
Blind pride is bad in anything, but what constitutes blind pride? Do the actions of a minority taint the whole? Can the actions of idiots such as aryans mean all Americans have blind pride? And who's to judge what's blind pride and what's not. I think it's as dangerous to pain such a broad stroke of others as it is to have so much tunnel vision as to miss the entire scene.

 

[Darkshadow]

Well, I dunno about anyone else that gets their news by word of mouth, but I don't just blindly believe everything I hear. That would be insanity.

I assimilate what I hear and make a whole from it. And I talk to many people, not all of them from the US. And, I suppose I do get some of that from the board. I keep an ear open all the time.

I don't just get news this way, I get ideas, a sense of how things are really going, stuff like that. More people should try it.

Although I get in trouble that way when I have an outlook that the people around me don't share because they aren't so...open minded. Not that I care. Heh, I remember getting in trouble with teachers over stuff I turned in that didn't 'agree' with what I was being taught. Freakin schools...err, I think I'll stop here or I'll start a rant on what I think of the schools here.

 

[toast]

Originally posted by fryke
If somebody tells me I'm TOTALLY wrong, there are three possibilities, and the third one is often the truth:
1) HE/SHE is totally wrong,
2) He/She is right, I'm wrong,
3) the fact that even one person thinks I'm totally wrong should show me that I'm at least not totally right. I should therefore take a step back and look at the big picture from as many positions as possible.

Fryke re-explaining the theory of rational choice to the world
For a very detailed explanation of the logics of rational choice, click here (it's a paper, in French, from the University of Geneva)

Randman once asked:
What's wrong with being patriotic? It's the manner in which some people perceive as being patriotic that can be a problem. It's like democracy. In theory, it's an excellent idea. In practice, well it oftens suffers from the foibles and weaknesses of those who claim to be enforcing it.

In my opinion, although you have requisited the best concepts, you fall in a bad conclusion here.

You talk of patriotism, compare to democracy, and you question those concepts. What you conclude is that both can be flawed ("foibles", "weaknesses", "blind pride"). I say: big news ! This can be said from anything.

What your post very intelligently suggests, still IMHO, is that patriotism, just like democracy, is seen though different angles from the US and from Yurop. The fact you are looking it through is utterly positivist: patriotism is good, but can be flawed. Fryke is looking at it through the opposite facet: patriotism may know some good forms, nevertheless it is important to be aware that it can be flawed quite easily.

This way of thinking is extremely characteristic. It is a recurrent theme when you study mentalities and politics. The American look on many concepts such as justice or nationalism is positivist, the European one is more critical and negativist.

My two cents. I'm writing a 10-page book report on Rawls' Theory of Justice, this whole post may be a bit impregnated of it .

 

[Randman]

Toast, that was a very interesting post and you may be very well right. One thing I have tried to get across to a couple of mates (2 Aussies, 1 Brit) is that despite the nation being a hyperpower, Americans still have a mindset of rooting for the underdog and waiting for the calvary/hero/Marines to show up at the nth moment to save the day.
It'll be interesting to note how European mindsets continue to evolve concerning national identity and patriotism, especially as the EU seemingly draws nearer and nearer to a United States of Europe of sorts.

 

[Randman]

Eddie izzard has a brilliant bit on his Dressed to Kill about America and Europe and empires. Here's a bit of a recent interview he did with the Onion.com AV Club...

EI: You know, people in England say that Americans have no sense of irony, which just isn't true. Middle Americans have no sense of irony, just as middle Englanders and middle Canadians have no sense of irony. It's not so much location as it is a mindset.

O: There's a notion that European acts have to achieve success in America to really "make it," to be considered truly popular, rather than just, say, a European phenomenon. Do you think that's a good thing or a bad thing?

EI: It just is. Wherever the empire is, that'll be the place where you have to make it. America is a country that's just sort of progressed via a series of jumps, most notably the World Wars. That's what sort of made America the empire that it is. WWI, for example, allowed America to dominate the film industry, to step in and say to Europe, "Okay, we'll come in and distribute films to you guys." I think America is the equivalent of the Roman Empire at this point, but it could change. The one-language thing certainly helps. But having to break into America certainly is annoying, and it is sort of something I've got a chip on my shoulder about. But if it wasn't America, it'd be someplace else.