what's the skinny on 10.4?
- Thread starter octane
- Start date
bobw
The Late: SuperMacMod
'New File System' is - for Mac OS X - only an old rumour. It stems from the fact that Apple got hold of some old BeOS-developers. Hope is that we'll get a database-driven file system in Mac OS X 10.4 or 10.5. However, nothing about it is in any way 'clear' or 'true'. Not even whether we really _want_ that.
The first time we'll hear about 10.4 in detail will probably be WWDC 2004, which will probably be around May/June 2004.
The first time we'll hear about 10.4 in detail will probably be WWDC 2004, which will probably be around May/June 2004.
octane
I have issues, OK!
fryke said:
Yes, Apple got a couple of guys from Be Inc. and so did Microsoft.
Apple had the idea of creating a sql-based file system .. then, as if by magic, so did Microsoft. Thus, Longhorn will take for ever and a day, and by the time it ships, to Apple users running OS 10.5, it'll be one Long Yawn! ;-)
Apple are moving to a new file system incrementally. They don't want to break everything that the likes of Adobe and Microsoft develop for the mac.
Apple know the hard way big changes are not what the major ISV's like .. they prefer little ones...
cybergoober
Neomaxizoomdweebie
octane said:
You're going to have to wait. Or become a software engineer at Apple.
As fryke said, we probably won't really know anything until May/June 2004.
octane, if 10.3 isn't enough for you, write your own operative system. 10.4 will not be seeded to developers anywhere before next end of summer/ fall .. and maybe some of the things added to 10.4 will be those that have always been in the other unix bases OSs but not in OS X. such as multiple desktops .. (yes expose is cool but if you had 4 desktops it'd be moere comfrotable .. ).
octane
I have issues, OK!
Giaguara said:
Giaguara, if you've got a problem with this topic, find one you do like. If you still want to stick around, stay off the coffee and cool it.
Not fully qualified medical advice, but you might just find it works.
I'm a developer, and as such, I like to keep ahead of the game; plan now, save later...
Salvo
Registered
HFS+ does support Metadata, it was designed by Dominic, to incorporate all the great features of the Be File System.
The Fact that the API's do not support this feature doesn't mean it isn't in existance. I think that's what we're looking forward to.
One thing BeOS lacked however was a daemon which automatically updated FileSystem Attributes when Document Attributes were changed. If you changed your ID3 Tags in an MP3, you'd then have to run a 3rdParty App to update your Attributes.
Microsoft's current implementation in NTFS directly extracts the Data from the Data File on-the-fly. This slows the NTFS down when viewing a folder of Word Documents (for instance) because Explorer has to extract all the Author, Title, etc from each file as it displays.
BeOS had no lag. That's right no lag at all. HFS+ has this power, but has to be implemented. A daemon to extract metadata would be easy to implement too, because BeFS & HFS+both support watching nodes, as soon as metadata on a file was changed, any open queries relating to that metadata would be updated, without bogging down the system.
The Fact that the API's do not support this feature doesn't mean it isn't in existance. I think that's what we're looking forward to.
One thing BeOS lacked however was a daemon which automatically updated FileSystem Attributes when Document Attributes were changed. If you changed your ID3 Tags in an MP3, you'd then have to run a 3rdParty App to update your Attributes.
Microsoft's current implementation in NTFS directly extracts the Data from the Data File on-the-fly. This slows the NTFS down when viewing a folder of Word Documents (for instance) because Explorer has to extract all the Author, Title, etc from each file as it displays.
BeOS had no lag. That's right no lag at all. HFS+ has this power, but has to be implemented. A daemon to extract metadata would be easy to implement too, because BeFS & HFS+both support watching nodes, as soon as metadata on a file was changed, any open queries relating to that metadata would be updated, without bogging down the system.
octane, I did not mean what I said in any nasty way.
If there is not a software (or kernel, or operative system, or a filter in some program etc) that does what you need or want, write a new one (or adapt to what exists).
I know several people who've got tired enough of the computers so they _want_ to write their own kernels and operative systems.
I know what I would like to have in the OS X that is not there yet. And I doubt those things will be there even in 10.4. Multiple desktops (I'm not the only one who would like these .. and who is asking for it since 10.0), a rewritten (smarter) finder, some functions in the mail that I could write the plugin for (as what I want in mail is not included in _any_ mail program with a gui), an option of having other than just the standard gui (choose kde, gnome etc - some people hate aqua shadows, and some have slower processors so they may sometimes prefer to have the processing speed in other tasks that calculating the shadows) (and a long list of other things) ..
Once the thinking will go to what is the 10.4, doing anything else but bug fixes to 10.3 will just look pointless. And with a release of an OS barely a month old, enjoy what you have or just fantacize what you would like to have in the next ome. It will anyway contain a list of 150 improvements that will make your 10.3 look obsolete so that you'll need to update it.
If there is not a software (or kernel, or operative system, or a filter in some program etc) that does what you need or want, write a new one (or adapt to what exists).
I know several people who've got tired enough of the computers so they _want_ to write their own kernels and operative systems.
I know what I would like to have in the OS X that is not there yet. And I doubt those things will be there even in 10.4. Multiple desktops (I'm not the only one who would like these .. and who is asking for it since 10.0), a rewritten (smarter) finder, some functions in the mail that I could write the plugin for (as what I want in mail is not included in _any_ mail program with a gui), an option of having other than just the standard gui (choose kde, gnome etc - some people hate aqua shadows, and some have slower processors so they may sometimes prefer to have the processing speed in other tasks that calculating the shadows) (and a long list of other things) ..
Once the thinking will go to what is the 10.4, doing anything else but bug fixes to 10.3 will just look pointless. And with a release of an OS barely a month old, enjoy what you have or just fantacize what you would like to have in the next ome. It will anyway contain a list of 150 improvements that will make your 10.3 look obsolete so that you'll need to update it.
octane
I have issues, OK!
Giaguara said:
OK, I'll let you off ;-)
Try Trucker Software
Now, you see, we were getting on just fine until you went and spoilt it all over again.
I'm a mac purist, I can't hear you [finger in each ear] nah, nah, nanah, nah!
Once the thinking will go to what is the 10.4, doing anything else but bug fixes to 10.3 will just look pointless. And with a release of an OS barely a month old, enjoy what you have or just fantacize what you would like to have in the next ome. It will anyway contain a list of 150 improvements that will make your 10.3 look obsolete so that you'll need to update it.
I don't have OS 10.3! I'm OS 10.2 and i will be for at least the next three month until the dust settles. I'm mean, look at the teething problems with OS 10.3; FileVault data corruption, a trio of vulns & exploits, Firewire woes...
I used to be an early adopter .. not since I totally [and utterly, I might add] screwed the main disk on my b/w G3 after running OS X 10.0 beta on a ufs formatted.
A prime example of RTFM if I ever there was one. In the small print of the readme was a simple, small line of text; don't format the hard of your blue & white G3 as ufs...
bobw
The Late: SuperMacMod
FileVault was fixed in 10.3.1;
The 10.3.1 Update delivers enhanced functionality and improved reliability for the following applications, services and technologies: FileVault, Printing, WebDav, and FireWire 800 drives. This update also includes the latest Security Updates.
The 10.3.1 Update delivers enhanced functionality and improved reliability for the following applications, services and technologies: FileVault, Printing, WebDav, and FireWire 800 drives. This update also includes the latest Security Updates.
uoba
Re: member
bobw said:Or switch to a PC, I think they may be perfect
They truly are, mine is (it's switched off, it's running so well).
I hope to see virtual desktops in 10.4. But Apple could hardly blow their horn about it (Linux users would wet their pants laughing about this
) As for the databased file system, I'd like this too, what does it do? Giaguara... you're never gonna see a KDE-Linux type flexibility from Apple, that's just dreaming, stop it. But I would like to see more flexibility in the GUI (chances are, by 10.4 Apple will start evolving to interface aesthetics once more, since brushed metal will be so 2003). Those lines from 10.0 are fading fast, they'll be gone.
I'd hope for an update to the use of the dock as well, still feel it's been limited to what it can do.
octane
I have issues, OK!
uoba said:
In simple terms, having your file system running as a database means that you can have more complex - meaning, more specific - search criteria. You have increased resilience should your computer crash - less damage to the file structure. You get to say more about what a file is and what it contains - sort of meta tags for your computer.
There will be other stuff no doubt, some of the other posters should fill you in and pick where I left off.
In short, the Journaling is only the beginning. I see Apple being very shrewd here. They've underplayed their intentions with the Xserve while at the same time creating a truly usable Unix, not one that relies on the command line just to do simple stuff.
I've read of lots of businesses who've bought in a couple of Xserves just to - in American vernacular - 'kick the tyres' and have been blown away by how they just work and then keep on working.
Bobw missed my point. Apple have been busting a gut to get OS 10.3 out, and I suspect they cut a few corners to do it. They've done the same before.
I work on a razor-thin IT budget and if I buy something like OS 10.3 from day one of release and it damages my set up, it's down time and lost income trying dig my way out.
As much as I love my macs, when I pay good money for something - anything - I expect it to work first time .. especially a mac, I don't want to be an unpaid beta tester.
Am I being unreasonable?
uoba, speaking of beta testing - we're developing some time management software. If you like it, you get a free copy. If you're interested, email me...
Anyway .. can we get back on topic or has everyone had their say?
uoba
Re: member
Was trying to wrack my brains for further improvements... but to be honest, most of them stemmed from missing OS9 features (usability etc.)... I suppose the biggest thing would be to have the OS as snappy as Windows (but I ain't got a G5... but then my Celeron laptop doesn't delay on this).
As for the time management beta, Octane, I'll e-mail you.
As for the time management beta, Octane, I'll e-mail you.
My time-management software is called 'DVD Player'. Takes care of all my spare-time. ;-)
Well, 'back on topic' is a bit difficult. There's absolutely no information available. And if the thread is about "what I'd like to see in 10.4", then that's a different topic.
So let's see... Multiple desktops? I don't miss them, really.
The database-driven file system? Not so sure. I don't want another 'layer' between the files and me. One of the best things about classic Mac OS' file handling was its direct way (for the user). You take a file, put it somewhere, and that's where it is. I want database-driven filing for MP3s (got that in iTunes), photos (got that in iPhoto) and mails (got that in Mail.app). Do I want it for Word files? I don't _do_ Word files. Do I want it for Photoshop files? Not really, as I use them for _projects_ - and the Finder should let _me_ handle the filing the way I want to. It does in most cases, but in some ways, the old Finder (OS 9 and lower) was better.
Well, 'back on topic' is a bit difficult. There's absolutely no information available. And if the thread is about "what I'd like to see in 10.4", then that's a different topic.
So let's see... Multiple desktops? I don't miss them, really.
The database-driven file system? Not so sure. I don't want another 'layer' between the files and me. One of the best things about classic Mac OS' file handling was its direct way (for the user). You take a file, put it somewhere, and that's where it is. I want database-driven filing for MP3s (got that in iTunes), photos (got that in iPhoto) and mails (got that in Mail.app). Do I want it for Word files? I don't _do_ Word files. Do I want it for Photoshop files? Not really, as I use them for _projects_ - and the Finder should let _me_ handle the filing the way I want to. It does in most cases, but in some ways, the old Finder (OS 9 and lower) was better.