Apple - Part II

What do you think of Mac OS X?

  • I love it! It's my only Mac OS!

  • Fun to play with, but I still do work with OS 9.

  • I don't use it. Software isn't ready.

  • I don't use it. It's way too slow.


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Originally posted by Ed Spruiell
George - so if photoshop and other Adobe products are what isn't cutting it, why not write to Adobe about it? Why not start a thread called "Adobe Sucks"?

Why not Adobe sucks? Because they are not the one who decide to change the OS platform for the Macs. And believe me, I did complain. And you know what? The answers I got are the same ones I wrote in the past of this thread.

These companies are not losing market. In fact, ever since Windows NT, many of the software companies began to focus more on the NT platform than Mac OS. This is why OS X is so essential to our survival¡Xyet the development has been nothing¡Xbut slow. Steve knows this, I know this and I hope you know this as well.

Don't blame the developers, because Apple should be responsible for the OS. Market is what attracts developers. Unfortunately, there has to be a market before developers jump in and design software for sale. If it weren¡¦t for iMacs and PowerBooks, you think Photoshop 7.0 for OS X would ever be released?

As I mentioned before, I sold computers from 1996 to 1999 in the United States. Stopped doing it because I wanted to return to my family in Taiwan. It¡¦s a lot easier to sell Macs if Windows machines can¡¦t do it as well. But Microsoft has made it possible with NT. First, it was publishing, then music, and multi-language. We need to do something if we want the Mac platform alive. I know I do.

It¡¦s okay to be misunderstood as long as I know that I¡¦m a Mac user, a Mac faithful. None of you will change my faith¡Xperhaps only my perspective on my peers.

Anyway, it was nice knowing what you all were thinking, or believing.

Take care! Long live the Macs!
 
Originally posted by RacerX
And now for the big question... why do you care?

Oh, I couldn't help noticing that you seemed to be leaving out the cost of Windows on the prices of the PC systems you list ($320 for Win 2K Pro, $1000/$1200 for Win 2K Server). I just spent three weeks working with Microsoft's lawyers proving that one of my clients had all the licenses for the Microsoft products that they owned (which wasn't much because it was a magazine, and they used mainly Apple and Adobe products). You are paying for all that great software aren't you? They seem very touchy about that type of stuff from my experience.

(* denotes second system of the exact same configuration, first system was stolen almost two years ago)

Why do I care? Because learning new things is more important than being right to me. Cool systems! Big thumbs to you (seriously, not making fun)! How did you manage to get those drivers?

As for the Windows 2000, we can purchase BTO (Built-to-order) version, which cost a lot less than the retail store version. For example, W2K Professional for $99 USD, W2K Server for $428 USD.
 
Originally posted by georgelien
Windows 2000 Professional has been around for close to two years now. OS X should be out the same time. No, but instead it's still at 10.1.4 stage while Windows 2000 already have Service Pack 2 out and soon SP3 will be out.

OS X beats XP right now, but with the speed Apple is perfecting OS X, XP will be pass it in no time.

Windows 2000 is actually Windows NT 5.0. The lineage of systems is as follows:
OS/2 (IBM/MS) > OS/2 NT (MS Working beta) >Windows NT 3.1 > Windows NT 3.51 > Windows NT 4.0 > Windows 2000

Thee core OS of Windows XP is Windows 2000 which is Windows NT 5.0.

So If Windows NT 3.1 was released in July of 1993, and is only now becoming the standard desktop system (9 years later), I think Mac OS X has more than pass NT in it's learning curve (seeing as NT wasn't even usable until NT 4.0 sp3).

As for the drivers, most are included (and I find some on Apple's site a few years ago). The Mac drivers were not document, so I found out by talking with developers. The PC drivers can be found here. So yes, if you still have Mac OS X Server 1.0, that should actually run on your 2400.
 
Good call RacerX! Good analysis. Mac OS X was supposed to be Copland, and Copland was supposed to come out in 1996 or 97, don't quite remember, but it didn't.

So Mac OS X came out late, the only way to make that up is to speed up the development. I like Unix. Well, I should say that I heard many good things about it. However, while I always disagree with people who think its better for Apple to turn completely into a software-only company, I think the company has been focusing too much on its hardware development and not enough on its software.

I miss many features in OS 9. Yes, it crashes. But after you have spent as much time as I have in crash preventions, it can actually crash less than OS X--believe it or not.

_______________________________
Question: What happened to the support of our OS X Server after 10.0 version came out?
 
The bizarre history of Mac OS X. In the list of Rhapsodys, you may have noticed Rhapsody 5.2 (which no one outside Apple has seen). That was supposed to be the big release of the new OS that we where all waiting for.

Apple ran into two problems on the way to releasing Rhapsody. First was that OpenStep developers started compiling less and less of their apps for the Intel version after the release of Rhapsody 5.1 (which was strange considering that they were coming over from Intel hardware to begin with). This lack of software and the lack of Blue Box for Intel meant that Rhapsody for Intel would be running very short of apps when released. The second problem was Mac developers like Microsoft, Adobe, and Macromedia which told Apple that they had no plans to support an OS that had no users, the cost of rewriting their apps would be just far to high.

That was when Apple pulled Rhapsody from being released (except for Rhapsody Server for PPC), and decided to create a new app environment that would make it easy to port existing Mac apps to the new OS (under the project name Mac OS X at this point). What did we wait for? Apple to develop a completely new development environment for developers. Why did Apple make the Finder Carbon? To prove that they trusted Carbon enough to make one of the most important parts of the OS out of it (which is also part of the reason why we have a slower system today).

What this time did was give Apple a chance to get out from under the thumb of Adobe and their expensive Display Postscript (which made the cost of systems like NEXTSTEP, OPENSTEP, Mac OS X Server 1.x, and Solaris so high). A GNU project based on OpenStep APIs call GNUstep has been trying to replace Display Postscript with an open source version called Display Ghostscript (and they are still working on it). Apple pushed forward with Display PDF, which along with OpenGL and Quicktime make up Quartz, which is still being worked on (the other part of the slowness of our systems). If Apple has stayed with Adobe, Mac OS X would have been more like $300 than $120. Also, think about how much revenue Adobe lost, and then ask yourself why they would to be slow in releasing Photoshop (who says companies don't take things personally).

In order to save face in the light of pulling Rhapsody, Apple rename Rhapsody Server to Mac OS X Server and released it. This gave them the ability to say that they did release the next generation OS by the deadline of 1999.

As for Rhapsody support, with the release of Mac OS X Server 10.0.3, Apple provided no upgrade path from either Appleshare IP 6.x or Mac OS X Server 1.x. Mac OS X Server 10.x and 1.x are two completely different operating systems. And Apple provides very little support for Mac OS X Server 1.x. Even their course work only has a couple pages on the subject (which was why I set out to find out more for my customers who use it).

Also Copland, though killed as a project, did see the light of day. Parts of Copland (partial protected memory, and cooperative multitasking) made it into Mac OS 8.0, and other parts (including theme support) made it into Mac OS 8.5 (including the theme support and the Hi-Tech, Drawing Board and Gizmo themes, seen as early as 1991, where part of RC8).
 
Why not Adobe sucks? Because they are not the one who decide to change the OS platform for the Macs. And believe me, I did complain. And you know what? The answers I got are the same ones I wrote in the past of this thread.

so an app that doesn't work properly in the system it was designed for is the system's fault? is that what you are saying? and if apple had only continued to enhance their basic operating system and called it osx, then everything would be working great and mac market share would be on the rise at incredible rates because the old way of doing things is faster. right? Are you really saying that an advancement into a new age of computing, that has drawn together a more diverse user base than ever before, is responsible for a Windows advantage in sales? and that it is going to continue unless apple redesigns the whole thing back to the way it was so that Adobe and others can figure it out without putting in the effort to learn how it works as it is?

I don't know everything about osx, certainly not from a programmer's point of view, but I do know that apple made it like it is to give us the advantages that we are happy about - the ones that let us feel great when comparing our apples to windows boxes. I also know that i had to make a few perceptual shifts when i first started using osx in order to understand how and why it is better than os 9. I assure you i was not a public beta user or even a 10.0.3. with 10.0.3, i would play around with it and look at its eye candy, but i couldn't get used to it. Enough was improved with 10.0.4 that i started to take it seriously. and i had, by that time, begun to understand the difference between having to repeat a 2 second lag to complete a task, that had seemed instantaneous in os 9, 30 times a day and the 4 -5 minutes of rebooting spent each day when one of those tasks failed. I had begun to compare what real speed is as oppossed to perceived speed.

and i sincerely believe you when you say that adobe would tell you the kinds of things that you posted earlier. I have already stated that they and others are quick to pass the buck to avoid blame because they aren't up to speed with the new os. What really worries me is that you bought that line of BS. That is why they don't have to worry about losing any market share, because their faithful are willing to believe anything they say, despite evidence to the contrary. Shouldn't they be working harder on their next update to give you the speed you want? We have seen them increase their speed on products in the past after severl updates. I am sure they will do it again. But they aren't in any rush to do so as long as people continue to believe they are the only game in town. I want you to mark your calender because i am predicting that in 10 years, they will be like IBM, just another software company that does a few specialized things. The bulk of their market share will have dried up as competitors come along and make equal or better products and are responsive to their customer base.

and lastly, i am a bit curious as to how the use of complex, pro level graphics programs will effect apple's market share? apple is still first and foremost dedicated to the home user. the average joe who just wants his computer to work. and maybe to look nice, not an eyesore. the imacs, both of them, have set record sales marks in this market. and the new imac has barely even begun to leave its mark on apple's profit line.

to that line of thinking, i have often thought it might be better if apple just stopped trying toplease graphics pros entirely. you guys seem to be the only ones whining. and then the rest of us wouldn't have to live with that awful myth that macs are just for graphics. But then i realize that most mac pros are thrilled with their product and their os and know that the software companies are the ones responsible for their beefs. It would be really wrong of me to wish away such joy on my professional friends.

btw, isn't this more interesting when you start responding to the points and ignoring the remarks instead of the other way around?;)
 
Ed- i have to disagree with you on the 'home user' bit.

Granted... Mac's are great for home users. Let me never argue this.

But mac's have also long been at the forefront of imaging, design, and A/V.

Apple makes machines and system software that is more transparent to the user. It gets the hell out of the way. That's why the people who use it generally love it. For work or play... the mac is less annoying. Irritation is inversely proportional to productivity... soooooo.... :)

Cohesion... failling...

Ack. Why am I posting? Must find sleep. Ugh. Sorry guys... I'm broken.
 
.dev - i can't argue with you about apple's long history of being the computer of choice for serious graphics and A/V. I never meant to imply otherwise. that is how i came to apple in the 1st place nearly 20 years ago.

but if that were the bulk of their business, mac users would amount to a much smaller number. since the introduction of the imac, apple has specifically targeted the non professional and non student. It has been very successful for them. and for all mac users. the new imac is continuing that emhasis i believe, although it is enough of a mac-chine to cross over into the pro field a little more i think. again, that is good.

as for all that stuff you said about being user friendly, i couldn't agree more. but that was my 1st beef with osx, that after you get past the surface, it is not as user friendly. In some ways i still believe this and in others i think it was just a matter of being resistant to learning a new underneath side. I am sure that someday i will know this thing as well as i once knew os 9 and then it will all be friendly again. :)
 
Originally posted by Ed Spruiell
and i sincerely believe you when you say that adobe would tell you the kinds of things that you posted earlier. I have already stated that they and others are quick to pass the buck to avoid blame because they aren't up to speed with the new os. What really worries me is that you bought that line of BS. That is why they don't have to worry about losing any market share, because their faithful are willing to believe anything they say, despite evidence to the contrary. Shouldn't they be working harder on their next update to give you the speed you want?
around?;)

Money is real, okay? Either you make them or you don't. People used to use Photoshop primary on Macs until Windows NT came along. Windows took away many customers from imaging, design, and A/V.

Developers in general only go to where money is. This is, of course, not including the more noble ones who make freewares or sharewares.

Now I understand why OS X came out so late. Unfortunately, this knowledge still does not change two facts:

1. Belated Coming-Out Party
2. Unacceptable progress.

I hope Steve will surprise me once more at this year's WWDC.

I really want to go, but you are guys are so interesting!
^_^
 
Check out the new eMac! This should be a hit since the new iMac!
This is a great machine but it is a niche product. I think it will be a hit among education (partly because they are the only ones who can get it). But as far as the rest of the world goes, this will not phase them. People either love it or hate it and I just hope that the ones who hate it realize that Apple CAN make a product that doesn't apply to them. The iPod wasn't for everyone and neither is OS X server.
 
Originally posted by mindbend
As much as I keep getting blasted for pointing out OS X's failings in the graphics areana, isn't this poll funny?

http://www.macosx.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16685

Somehow, everyone seems to agree that it's [OS X] slow to some extent or another, both graphically and overall speed.

Funny. [laughs to self] ;)

Funny. I thought you understood that we all realized OS X could still use speed enhancements. But it's still acceptable, and that's why you're "getting blasted".
 
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