Colours for print????

B

bez

Registered
Hi all,
I just got my first job as a graphic designer after graduating :eek:
However, since now I am designing for the real world I need to start using colours correctly so I get from the printers what I am expecting. If anyone can shed a little light on the following questions, then I would really appreciate it!

If you are designing,say, a leaflet in quark, and produce images in photoshop for the whole backgrounds, how do you make sure the colours you use in quark are the same a s the ones in photoshop? ie how do I make sure a blue I use in photoshop will be the same blue as some text I do in quark?

Can someone explain about spot colours, pantone colours please :( . Can I just reference a colour I want from the pantone book at work, and use as many as I like in a quark document? What are the difference between pantone solid/process colours etc?

I really need some help, so if anyones has got any good links to sites about printing, or can fill me in on exactly what I need to do when setting a document up for print, I will be very grateful.

Many thanks
 
Pantone colours are most likely what you want to use here.

The first thing I've learnt in my time as a graphic designer is that its very fiddly and difficult to try and match colours between PhotoShop and your vector/compositing package. Its far easier to create all your backgrounds as Pantones in Quark, and simply ensure that the PhotoShop image has appropriate transparency to let the background show through.

As for knowing that you have the right colour, get one of the Pantone "flip books" of colour cards (this might take a little bit of hunting). Keep it next to your keyboard, and anytime you need to match a colour, use the flip book.
 
I agree with symphonix, but I will add some more specifics too. Photoshop does not handle pantones well; in fact, it only recognizes them as CMYK values. Hence, they will not print exactly the same as a pantone will in Quark.

A small exception to this is when you create a DUOTONE with a pantone color and black (or another color, or more).You can create plates for a printer that use the pantone colors in this manner. Otherwise, as you can tell, when you choose a color in photoshop you choose a Pantone but it always becomes a CMYK color. (or RGB depending on your color space).

Pantone colors are more expensive because they are mixed in a very particular way and aren't as abundant as the usual C=yan M=agenta Y=ellow and K=Black. There are even "foil" pantones like silver that are even more expensive and add cost to printing because they must be printed to the paper and allowed to dry before the paper may be cut and put together.

When designing, you have to plan ahead. If you are doing a layout that requires blocks of color throughout the page, consider doing the background of the page in that color, then adding text in Quark. NEVER use photoshop for text, except for big titles, because you lose your postscript/font abilities when you flatten/rasterize your files.

As for Pantone colors, here's the skinny from my 10 years of experience. I am NOT infallible, however. :) Pantone Coated are Pantone colors you use on glossy, or coated, paper stock. Uncoated Pantones you use on non glossy stock. Keep this in mind whenever you design, and find out what paper you are printing on BEFORE you start choosing colors. Saves many headaches down the road.

When you choose colors, remember that you will NEVER be able to match colors from different programs or processes with 100% accuracy because you are always translating colors to the "imperfect" world of printing presses. WYSIWYG is a common phrase in the industry to describe this "What you see is what you get" phenomenon.

Sign up on http://www.creativepro.com's newsletter. This site is INVALUABLE in giving you tips and tricks. Also, join a graphic design organization in your area (AIGA is a great one) to commiserate with your colleagues.

Hope this helps! :)
 
Erhm... I beg to differ. If you use, say Pantone 109U in an Illustrator drawing and import it into Quark, where you're using P109U as a text colour, it's the PRINTER's fault, if it doesn't come out the same colour. Actually, it just shouldn't be different, because it'll be on the same film.

But you don't want to use a few dozen Pantone colours in a leaflet, because every Pantone colour ends up as a separate film. So rather you'll want full colour stuff (like pictures) to be CMYK and might want to define one or two additional Pantone colours that are repeated throughout a document (text, form elements...). Those Pantone flip books are essential for knowing what you're going to get. However good your display may be: A computer display works quite differently compared to paper. It emits light, whereas paper reflects light. (RGB ? CMYK...) Those flip books also give you more or less accurate CMYK values, so you can compare the Pantone coloured elements to photos you might be using in a document.

I'd also get a book or two about colour theory. Reading's good. :)
 
fryke, you aren't differing with my entry. I was talking about Photoshop which handles Pantones A LOT differently than illustrator. Photoshop always translates the PMS colors to CMYK. Illustrator does not.

The color issue isn't necessarily the printer's fault either. It's the designer's job to manage colors to the specs of the job. It's the printer's job to follow the directions of the designer in order to correctly print the job.

Otherwise, good points. :)
 
Hate to burst your collective color bubble here, but alot of the above is missing the mark regarding color management. If you're serious about learning how your colors will be managed from original image capture (digital photog. or scan), vector and raster programs to your final output, check out Bruce Fraser's Real World Color Management...it's a valuable resource. He can say it all better than I can...

Some of what I find issue with above:
•yes, Photoshop will read Pantones as CMYK if you use the Color Picker on a normal layer in a CMYK file. You can, however, create Spot Channels defining a specific PMS color area for output. Depending on how you want to output, you may have to split this into a separate file...
once the PMS area is defined by your applications, and you seperate the PMS color in your final file, they should appear identical when it prints (barring any overprint). The PMS ink on press doesn't care whether you used Quark or Photoshop.

• the mention about the printer being in the wrong if a PMS doesn't match your film. What film are you talking about? Almost all of offset and sheetfed printing today is DTP, meaning 'Direct to Plate'...there's no film involved.

• fryke brings up a good point that the flip books will give you a better idea of how the ink of paper will look reflecting light, rather than on your screen, where you're viewing an RGB transmissive surface trying to 'fake' CMYK through your software. However, if you really want to know how a given PMS will look, get a draw-down on the the actual stock you'll be using. Lots of folks forget about the huge difference that your paper will make, and the PMS books won't show you the end result on your stock.

• let your pre-press provider and printer know waaaaay ahead of time if a PMS is part of the deal on your job. The ink has to be ordered, and not all presses can run a PMS. Not to mention, your intermediate output device may not be able to show you a PMS color. An XP4 Kodak or Creo Digital Matchprint could show a PMS for example, while an Iris or Veris proof could not. Something to keep in mind...
 
You make some good points, though they don't necessarily contradict what I have said previously.

I disagree about your comment regarding film. It is still widely used on larger print runs. "Direct to Plate" or "Digital Printing" is filmless printing used for shorter print runs because of it's lower start up costs.

So no bubble burst. :)
 
hmm. I work in the pre-press division of one of the largest printers in the country, and I can tell you that film is dead. Even for making intermediate proofs(like a Kodak), and especially for making plates for offset. And I don't mean Marlon Brando dead; I mean Jimmy Stewart dead. But now that I'm waaaay off topic, I 'll leave said bubble be...

but check out that Fraser book, folks. It's more info than you may want, but it's an awesome reference for all things color-related; CreativePro(as natobasso already mentioned) is a great site as well, and a good place to mix it up with folks in the know...Dan Margulis was(is?) a major player on this site, and he's a Photoshop Hall-of-Famer and all-around DTP guru.
 
How can film be dead when printers all over Los Angeles and San Diego still use it? I personally see dozens of film plates per week; and that's just for one of my freelance clients. I would define dead to mean that it is no longer in regular use; film plates do not yet qualify for that description.

How else do you make plates for offset?
 
I am feeling like a bit of a raving lunatic now. :) The original post was regarding pantone colors and designing them for press. It's definitely the designer's responsibility to take care of this issue before the design gets to the printer. There, answered that one.
 
I have to disagree, too. Film's not dead. It might be for the bigger printers, but there _are_ printers out there using film. And I'm actually using one, because for the task _I'm_ using regularly, he's the best and actually the cheapest, too. Sure, he'll go out of business one day, but right now, he's not out of business and I'm using his services...

Natobasso: Don't think everyone's answering you and fighting you. :) You seem to always be angry that people are _not_ contradicting you. I don't think that's a _bad_ thing...
 
Oh no! I am not angry that people aren't contradicting me. I think there was some repetition of thoughts stated as contradictions when in reality they were in agreement with what was being said. That can get a little trying; but I wasn't angry. :)

Thank you for your concern, by the way.
 
Hi bez, and congratulations on your new job!

You can use the colour picker in Photoshop to create a matching swatch in QuarkXPress (needs a note pad and pen!) - at least back in the stone age of QXP 4. InDesign v2 + can take a reading directly from a placed image and perhaps so too can QXP 6 (don't think so). But beware that colour modes don't interact well at critical stages in the design process - don't take CMYK readings from an RGB Photoshop file.

You can set [Pantone] spot colours in Photoshop - but this is not for the faint hearted.

Automatic conversions of [Pantone] spot colours to process will occur at the RIP (or prior) if your job is process - if you don't control this somebody else will and the result may not be nice.

Beware the difference between the spot and process results of a particular [Pantone] swatch. (Pantone Solid to Process Guides are there to show the difference.)

One of the best things you can do is go spend a wee bit of time with your repro house/pre-press dept/production controller/artworker/print house when they have a spare half an hour or so - to talk to them about this and other stuff. Develop a good working relationship with everyone that you deal with up and down the line of fire.

Good luck and hope things go smoothly.

Gabriel
 
These guys pretty much broke it down but I would like to emphasize how important a match print can be, if the budget allows for it. Few months ago I did some Tommy Hilfiger ads for a big magazine and even though I had high quality laser printers at my disposal, only the match prints showed where color was lacking or extreme. This was critical because of the close-ups of models which I was retouching and the clothing, besides the massive amount of changes to the bodies faces and clothing that are expected. It will also show which details will be unrecognizable in a high quality print. Sometimes things show up in low quality prints and not in finals.

Illustrator also handles spot colors a lot better than photoshop but you can use the eyedropper Photoshop method to get CMYK values. Quark does not handle color well in my opinion, so I try to make sure that my images (pixel or vector) have the backgrounds in them to ensure there is no visible hard shift in color. If you have a CMYK color as a background in Photoshop and then use the same color in quark to fill in a gap, you will notice a difference when it prints sometimes but usually it is just the bad display is quark. I like quark for it's handling of fonts but I hate all else. Most printers nowadays can print from illustrator files so I tend to keep as much vector as I can, especially because it's crisp when printed.

I don't know if anyone mentioned this but pay attention to black values. Ignore REGISTRATION in Quark unless you know you need it. In CMYK, you may think you have 0,0,0,100 (i.e. in photoshop) when you actually have 10, 30, 15, 100 which will be visible in a print. This can be beneficial if you want the black with added color for effect, but not by accident as it can look strange.

The only thing to add about spot color is to make sure your client wants it as printers will charge more for a spot. There are other issues but this post is getting flooded.

Here are a few pointers as you are new to the game:

DO WHATEVER THE CLIENT SAYS AND KEEP TRACK OF IT. They pay you, still interject your knowledge but if they want a pink triangle smack in the middle of the design, do it even if you think it looks horrible even though they will probably make you re-do it. Keeping track of revisions is key when you give them a bill.

PRACTICE TILL YOU SEE KNOBS AND SLIDERS IN EVERYDAY LIFE. Sorry to say but time is what you need. Don't sleep unless you have to. You will know you are becoming a real designer when you walk around town and think how the trees need more yellow in the mid-tones and less red in the shadows.

BE AS FAST AS YOU CAN. Bosses always look for this trait. You need to program yourself to bee a speed demon in whatever you do but your quality must stay relatively high nonetheless. The more skills you have the more valuable you will be and the more money you will make.

LEARN KEYBOARD COMMANDS AND WORK-FLOWS. This will speed you up. Know your specific tools for specific jobs. Planning is always a must unless the budget is really low and doesn't allow for it. Larger companies will usually alot for pre-production but not always.

COFFEE AND CIGARETTES ARE YOUR FRIEND. Need I say more? Tums can help too. You need to be able to handle extreme pressure and stress so build up an immunity ASAP.

SHOW OFF WHENEVER POSSIBLE. Showing you are more skilled always helps. Act professional unless you don't have to.

HAVE FUN EVEN THOUGH YOU BRAINWASH PEOPLE FOR MONEY. Again, need I say more? Are basic job is to manipulate people's thoughts and beliefs so they can develop wants they don't need. It sucks but most often that's what we do, at least when we start out. Once you are good enough it's easier to get work and you can choose what you do. Unfortunately almost everything designed is for selling so it's a paradox.

YOU MUST BE ABLE TO DO ANYTHING. I save this for last as it is most important. Doens't matter the job, if they give it to you, FIND A WAY TO MAKE IT WORK. They don't care how you do it, just make it happen by the deadline. You must be a samurai warrior with your index finger as well as an expert problem solver. Doubting yourself will only cripple you. So be direct with your ideas and don't act afraid. Be tough when you must and size up your co-workers and executives and handle each accordingly.

I could go on but my list is too long. This is my first and hopefully the last disgustingly long post I've done on any board. Aren't you lucky I saved it for you. ::ha::
 
Guys thank you very much for your invaluable input. I have done a lot of reading, bought a few books, and generally been teaching myself all the important stuff I never had the time to learn at university because I was doing things that were a waste of time imo.

Your help has helped me a lot, many thanks again.
 
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