Do you pay all your software ?
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This ismy first time posting, however, I have been occasionally browsing through the threads for a while now. As I have been reading this thread, I just feal like I should throw in my two cents (1.999992 or whatever my exchange rate is).
The only reason why pirating software would be acceptable in my mind is for educational or trial reasons. As a Christian (don't worry I am not going to preach, I am just sighting an example) I have wrestled with the fact that I never spend any time helping people. Whether it be tutoring, helping out in the church, or even giving what I should to the church financially. I have come to the conclusion that since I am a starting business owner who does not have time to spare to tutor, help out in the cimmunity, or spare money to give does mean that I am not doing my part. I am PREPARING to do my part. Using the gifts that I have to build a business that in the future will allow time and much more money to give back. Much more than I could have if I would had not spent as much time at my business.
This I compare to pirating software. I am not saying it is okay to pirate software to start a business, but if one is not in college anymore (therefore not eligible for educational discounts) or does not work for a company how are they suppossed to learn (and therefore probably become branded to the respective software copyright holder) a program? I am sorry, but I never learned that much about programs in my design classes. I learned almost everything I know about programs from fideling around with them at home, in my spare time.
If I did own some of Macromedia, I would rather someone pirate my software to get staretd and then have that customer for the duration of their usage of macromedia products than to never have the opportunity to allow the user to become a loyal macromedia customer. Not only is that person branded, but if they become loyal they will recommend your products to others, which is invaluable. Much more so than that measly loss of less than $1000 initial investment, which the user did not pay initially.
I understand that a lot of piracy does not happen like this. But The kind of piracy I just described is what I think is acceptable and actually beneficial in the long run to the copyright holders.
Now, if you are a starting business and you are going to use the software to do commercial work, then that is what a loan is for. You buy the software with a loan from the bank, do your contracted work, get paid, pay back the loans. Is that so hard? That is how a business gets started; with A LOT of debt. If you are pirating software and starting a business, then you are cheating the others who are starting out a business and are actually in debt to pay for the software.
Sorry if I dragged on, thanks for reading.
The only reason why pirating software would be acceptable in my mind is for educational or trial reasons. As a Christian (don't worry I am not going to preach, I am just sighting an example) I have wrestled with the fact that I never spend any time helping people. Whether it be tutoring, helping out in the church, or even giving what I should to the church financially. I have come to the conclusion that since I am a starting business owner who does not have time to spare to tutor, help out in the cimmunity, or spare money to give does mean that I am not doing my part. I am PREPARING to do my part. Using the gifts that I have to build a business that in the future will allow time and much more money to give back. Much more than I could have if I would had not spent as much time at my business.
This I compare to pirating software. I am not saying it is okay to pirate software to start a business, but if one is not in college anymore (therefore not eligible for educational discounts) or does not work for a company how are they suppossed to learn (and therefore probably become branded to the respective software copyright holder) a program? I am sorry, but I never learned that much about programs in my design classes. I learned almost everything I know about programs from fideling around with them at home, in my spare time.
If I did own some of Macromedia, I would rather someone pirate my software to get staretd and then have that customer for the duration of their usage of macromedia products than to never have the opportunity to allow the user to become a loyal macromedia customer. Not only is that person branded, but if they become loyal they will recommend your products to others, which is invaluable. Much more so than that measly loss of less than $1000 initial investment, which the user did not pay initially.
I understand that a lot of piracy does not happen like this. But The kind of piracy I just described is what I think is acceptable and actually beneficial in the long run to the copyright holders.
Now, if you are a starting business and you are going to use the software to do commercial work, then that is what a loan is for. You buy the software with a loan from the bank, do your contracted work, get paid, pay back the loans. Is that so hard? That is how a business gets started; with A LOT of debt. If you are pirating software and starting a business, then you are cheating the others who are starting out a business and are actually in debt to pay for the software.
Sorry if I dragged on, thanks for reading.
I find these totally arbitrary justifications for pirating software amusing. This I will pay for, that I won't, etc.
Interestingly, I find myself in a strange void because I am far from guiltless in this, and yet I know that deep down the RIAA has some kind of a point, as do software companies that want to cut down on piracy. With real-world, physical, hands-on products, one cannot take the cavalier attitude of "well, I don't have enough money for it, so I'll just 'borrow' it and use it until I feel it's justifiable for me to pay up."
Well, maybe one can, but it's called shoplifting.
I'm certain that someone could make a business out of creating a sliding scale of software product costs for students, or new business owners, but then there would be an appropriate cottage industry composed of people whose only goal would be to circumvent something like that. Case in point: tax laws and accounting practices.
Look how many non-students just in this forum expressed interest in taking advantage of the educational discount for Jaguar...
As a composer and songwriter, I'd probably be peeved (to put it mildly) if my songs were out over the internet even before my album went on sale. Sure, you can chalk that willingness of most people to steal songs (and I do it too) up to the greed of the record companies, but in the end the person who suffers most is the person who has the most time and energy invested in the product - the artist.
The irony is that those of you who are seeking computer science degrees or starting up companies will be the first to complain when people indulge themselves on the fruits of your labor. You may find the reasoning of only pirating software from large companies to be justifiable, but if everyone were pirating software, even large companies making the software wouldn't remain in business, meaning no programmers, etc.
Again, I'm not judging, just questioning the logic and trying to decide what the solution is...
Maybe the answer (at least for software) is in making people pay only for real-world/commercial usage only. Just an idea.
Interestingly, I find myself in a strange void because I am far from guiltless in this, and yet I know that deep down the RIAA has some kind of a point, as do software companies that want to cut down on piracy. With real-world, physical, hands-on products, one cannot take the cavalier attitude of "well, I don't have enough money for it, so I'll just 'borrow' it and use it until I feel it's justifiable for me to pay up."
Well, maybe one can, but it's called shoplifting.
I'm certain that someone could make a business out of creating a sliding scale of software product costs for students, or new business owners, but then there would be an appropriate cottage industry composed of people whose only goal would be to circumvent something like that. Case in point: tax laws and accounting practices.
Look how many non-students just in this forum expressed interest in taking advantage of the educational discount for Jaguar...
As a composer and songwriter, I'd probably be peeved (to put it mildly) if my songs were out over the internet even before my album went on sale. Sure, you can chalk that willingness of most people to steal songs (and I do it too) up to the greed of the record companies, but in the end the person who suffers most is the person who has the most time and energy invested in the product - the artist.
The irony is that those of you who are seeking computer science degrees or starting up companies will be the first to complain when people indulge themselves on the fruits of your labor. You may find the reasoning of only pirating software from large companies to be justifiable, but if everyone were pirating software, even large companies making the software wouldn't remain in business, meaning no programmers, etc.
Again, I'm not judging, just questioning the logic and trying to decide what the solution is...
Maybe the answer (at least for software) is in making people pay only for real-world/commercial usage only. Just an idea.
Jason
Eyebrow Moderator
By all means, i dont think piracy is right, it IS illegal, and it IS stealing, whether we like their prices or not, it IS stealing.
I am a student, and I have quite a bit of pirated software on my hands... why? Because im trying to further my knowledge as best i can, so i can have a future in my field, so i can one day support my family etc....
I am trying to do freelance, but how would i be able to free lance without products since i simply cant afford them? i have bills, i have college to pay for etc etc i can not afford these programs... especially quark...
so i am doing something immoral, and i am stealing, i am taking a risk, i am gambling, i want a better future, i dont want to work at mcdonalds my whole life because i cant afford to be legit, so i am taking the chance by stealing, to help my future... because thats what i care about is my future, and having a decent life, i want to buy a house, own a car, support a wife and children.
does this mean stealing is right? no. am i stealing? yes. will i buy things when i can afford them? yes.
and as far as music, the artists can thank the napster era for my business, as i usually dl songs illegally to listen to them, and see if i like, then i go buy... if not for the songs being out there, i wouldnt be buying their music most likely...
I AM A THEIF, I AM NOT CONDONING IT, ITS JUST THE RISK I TAKE TO FURTHER MY EDUCATION TO REACH MY GOALS IN LIFE.
i am sorry if that offends anyone
I am a student, and I have quite a bit of pirated software on my hands... why? Because im trying to further my knowledge as best i can, so i can have a future in my field, so i can one day support my family etc....
I am trying to do freelance, but how would i be able to free lance without products since i simply cant afford them? i have bills, i have college to pay for etc etc i can not afford these programs... especially quark...
so i am doing something immoral, and i am stealing, i am taking a risk, i am gambling, i want a better future, i dont want to work at mcdonalds my whole life because i cant afford to be legit, so i am taking the chance by stealing, to help my future... because thats what i care about is my future, and having a decent life, i want to buy a house, own a car, support a wife and children.
does this mean stealing is right? no. am i stealing? yes. will i buy things when i can afford them? yes.
and as far as music, the artists can thank the napster era for my business, as i usually dl songs illegally to listen to them, and see if i like, then i go buy... if not for the songs being out there, i wouldnt be buying their music most likely...
I AM A THEIF, I AM NOT CONDONING IT, ITS JUST THE RISK I TAKE TO FURTHER MY EDUCATION TO REACH MY GOALS IN LIFE.
i am sorry if that offends anyone
Zero,
The conversation seems pretty civilized to me.
My only point, and I'm not preaching, is that I find some of these arguments interesting.
It's like saying you can't get a job without having a nice suit, and then justifying shoplifting one because of the catch-22. Only because these products are digital - ethereal - we can get away with it. For now anyway.
There is an alternative to Buddhabob's dilemma (not to pick on him because others have this same rationale.) In other words, the two choices aren't *only*
1) work in McDonald's forever
or
2) pirate some software.
There is indeed a third choice, which is, get a temp job for a week, save enough for the software, buy it, quit the job. It's not like buying a car if you need Photoshop. You'd have to do the same kind of thing to buy the suit.
It's just interesting to me the boundaries people draw. Some will pay for an education, but not software or music. Others will pay for software and music, but skip out on their student loans. Everyone who does these things has some inner rationale, and when it all comes down to it, none of it is legal or moral.
I'll add again that I have pirated software and a few downloaded mp3s on my computer. My own justification is that none of this is stuff that I would ever buy or use if I couldn't obtain it just to play around with; software that I use for commercial purposes or on a daily basis I will pay for.
The conversation seems pretty civilized to me.
My only point, and I'm not preaching, is that I find some of these arguments interesting.
It's like saying you can't get a job without having a nice suit, and then justifying shoplifting one because of the catch-22. Only because these products are digital - ethereal - we can get away with it. For now anyway.
There is an alternative to Buddhabob's dilemma (not to pick on him because others have this same rationale.) In other words, the two choices aren't *only*
1) work in McDonald's forever
or
2) pirate some software.
There is indeed a third choice, which is, get a temp job for a week, save enough for the software, buy it, quit the job. It's not like buying a car if you need Photoshop. You'd have to do the same kind of thing to buy the suit.
It's just interesting to me the boundaries people draw. Some will pay for an education, but not software or music. Others will pay for software and music, but skip out on their student loans. Everyone who does these things has some inner rationale, and when it all comes down to it, none of it is legal or moral.
I'll add again that I have pirated software and a few downloaded mp3s on my computer. My own justification is that none of this is stuff that I would ever buy or use if I couldn't obtain it just to play around with; software that I use for commercial purposes or on a daily basis I will pay for.
Jason
Eyebrow Moderator
ok, since you made it sound so simple i'll go get a job, ignore my other bills, and buy a 700 dollar program... by saving my money for one week...
im sorry but thats not really optional, see i am have a hard time getting a job period, right now i am doing freelance and a little work for my school, i have been looking for just about ANY type of job in my county for 3 months now, i have gotten one interview, and although i had the skills needed, they wanted someone with more experience, i havent even gotten interview opportunities at customer service jobs... whats my point? its a hell of a lot harder to find a job right now than many people think, and if you think i can just pick up some random job all easy, that pays 700 dollars for a week, please by all means tell me what this is, because right now i am struggling to support myself and affording to go to school... and yes i am learning at school, but ive surpassed the levels they teach design at that school and completed the program itself, right now i am taking general ed classes, i get my associates this semester and i will then transfer to a university (more money, that i dont really have) so when im working, supporting myself, and going to school, and trying to further myself, and trying to get a job and failing, then you telling me to just go out and get a job, it kind of ends up being insulting...
BECAUSE I AM DOING THE BEST THAT I POSSIBLY CAN
i am doing what i can to get by man, what more do i have to say? i mean i dont eat nearly as much as normal people so i can save up to buy certain things, and to pay off bills, what the hell more do you expect of me? i want to buy the stuff trust me i do, i would if i friggen could, i would be the first person in line to, but as of right now i can not afford to buy it, but im not going to sacrifice my learning because i cant afford to, i am going to push myself to learn no matter what the situation is, and if i have to steal, then by all means arrest me, because i am taking money away from billion dollar corporations, because i am learning their products so that one day i can make enough money so that i can buy them... just throw me in hell man for not being financially well off like the most of you, i find it sickening that you guys can sit here and judge everyone that doesnt have the cash like you, if this was perfect world then i would have plenty of money to pay for the things i need to get started as a graphic designer, but i dont... so get over it man, im doing what i can and thats all you or anyone can ask of me, im trying as best i can so please, please respect that
thanks
im sorry but thats not really optional, see i am have a hard time getting a job period, right now i am doing freelance and a little work for my school, i have been looking for just about ANY type of job in my county for 3 months now, i have gotten one interview, and although i had the skills needed, they wanted someone with more experience, i havent even gotten interview opportunities at customer service jobs... whats my point? its a hell of a lot harder to find a job right now than many people think, and if you think i can just pick up some random job all easy, that pays 700 dollars for a week, please by all means tell me what this is, because right now i am struggling to support myself and affording to go to school... and yes i am learning at school, but ive surpassed the levels they teach design at that school and completed the program itself, right now i am taking general ed classes, i get my associates this semester and i will then transfer to a university (more money, that i dont really have) so when im working, supporting myself, and going to school, and trying to further myself, and trying to get a job and failing, then you telling me to just go out and get a job, it kind of ends up being insulting...
BECAUSE I AM DOING THE BEST THAT I POSSIBLY CAN
i am doing what i can to get by man, what more do i have to say? i mean i dont eat nearly as much as normal people so i can save up to buy certain things, and to pay off bills, what the hell more do you expect of me? i want to buy the stuff trust me i do, i would if i friggen could, i would be the first person in line to, but as of right now i can not afford to buy it, but im not going to sacrifice my learning because i cant afford to, i am going to push myself to learn no matter what the situation is, and if i have to steal, then by all means arrest me, because i am taking money away from billion dollar corporations, because i am learning their products so that one day i can make enough money so that i can buy them... just throw me in hell man for not being financially well off like the most of you, i find it sickening that you guys can sit here and judge everyone that doesnt have the cash like you, if this was perfect world then i would have plenty of money to pay for the things i need to get started as a graphic designer, but i dont... so get over it man, im doing what i can and thats all you or anyone can ask of me, im trying as best i can so please, please respect that
thanks
Budda,
I don't think squid is picking on you, at least it doesn't come across that way to me. I think he's just exploring the ethical arguments that we all face with this issue.
I find his points interesting. The fact of the matter is that it [piracy] is illegal, a crime and just plain wrong. Yet we all do it to some degree simply because it's so easy and relatively risk-free. As I stated in my earlier post, I pirated a buttload of software until I could pay for it so I'm not about to call anyone out (unless they ARE making money off said software and still refuse to buy it, those people need to die).
Like the business suit example, if I wanted to be a carpenter, had all the skills and knowledge, but couldn't afford the power tools I would simply be SOL unless I was willing to steal the stuff from Lowes or Menards. Software piracy in every legal sense is exactly the same situation. (Actually, now that I think about it, it's now quite the same since you can legally borrow a power tool from a friend, but not software...huh, kinda blows that analogy, but I'm going with it anyway).
Which, of course, makes me a criminal. Former criminal? Recovering crinimal?
I don't think squid is picking on you, at least it doesn't come across that way to me. I think he's just exploring the ethical arguments that we all face with this issue.
I find his points interesting. The fact of the matter is that it [piracy] is illegal, a crime and just plain wrong. Yet we all do it to some degree simply because it's so easy and relatively risk-free. As I stated in my earlier post, I pirated a buttload of software until I could pay for it so I'm not about to call anyone out (unless they ARE making money off said software and still refuse to buy it, those people need to die).
Like the business suit example, if I wanted to be a carpenter, had all the skills and knowledge, but couldn't afford the power tools I would simply be SOL unless I was willing to steal the stuff from Lowes or Menards. Software piracy in every legal sense is exactly the same situation. (Actually, now that I think about it, it's now quite the same since you can legally borrow a power tool from a friend, but not software...huh, kinda blows that analogy, but I'm going with it anyway).
Which, of course, makes me a criminal. Former criminal? Recovering crinimal?
Jason
Eyebrow Moderator
Actually most people in other industries that i know that try to start out on their own borrow tools and equipment needed to get the job done until they are on their feet.
Everyone i know does that.
I know its illegal, i stated that in my previous post, which i suppose you didnt read, i know i am stealing, and i know the consequences of my crimes if i get caught... but i am willing to take those risks to get myself on my feet and have a future in the field that i love and want to be in.
i dont like being a criminal, but i honestly dont see much that i can do besides wipe my computer and not be able to do what little i can do to support myself right now
im going to hell
xaqintosh
Master of Reality
you don't have to go to hell, there is still hope for you!
besides, you said yourself that you have every intention to buy it as soon as you start making money. I'm sure the company's won't mind since if you can't buy it now, you never will, but if you steal it now and buy every upgrade, they'll make a lot more money than they lose.
besides, you said yourself that you have every intention to buy it as soon as you start making money. I'm sure the company's won't mind since if you can't buy it now, you never will, but if you steal it now and buy every upgrade, they'll make a lot more money than they lose.
Hey Buddah,
I specifically made a point to say that I wasn't singling you out, so I'm sorry you feel that way. I really didn't mean to do that.
For the record, I'm not working either, and haven't really had a full-time job in 2 years. Leaving that job was my choice, but finding another one has been quite difficult. No, I'm not rich. I'm living at home - not exactly an optimal situation.
Not that any of that matters, just trying to get you to see that I understand the reality of the situation.
Mindbend had it exactly right: I'm just interested in everyone's (not just yours) rationale for their actions. The end of my post stated my own, very suspect (if I might add from an objective point of view) rationale for my behavior. So I'm not judging you.
All I can say is that I hope that people who are established, and who do find a way to make money using a product, will pay for it. I think this is largely what happens, though. Maybe this will happen less so with music, as that is not really a tool as is software, but at least with software.
Ideally that would be true for music too (coming from a musician).
I specifically made a point to say that I wasn't singling you out, so I'm sorry you feel that way. I really didn't mean to do that.
For the record, I'm not working either, and haven't really had a full-time job in 2 years. Leaving that job was my choice, but finding another one has been quite difficult. No, I'm not rich. I'm living at home - not exactly an optimal situation.
Not that any of that matters, just trying to get you to see that I understand the reality of the situation.
Mindbend had it exactly right: I'm just interested in everyone's (not just yours) rationale for their actions. The end of my post stated my own, very suspect (if I might add from an objective point of view) rationale for my behavior. So I'm not judging you.
All I can say is that I hope that people who are established, and who do find a way to make money using a product, will pay for it. I think this is largely what happens, though. Maybe this will happen less so with music, as that is not really a tool as is software, but at least with software.
Ideally that would be true for music too (coming from a musician).
Jason
Eyebrow Moderator
no prob, i have had a lot of people look down on me for what i do, and im getting tired of it being the cover im getting judged by
most people know me as a very giving and honest and moral person
but as soon as someone finds out i have pirated software they think im some sort of hacker, kidnapper, evil satanist or something, and its saddening because im only doing it out of need
also, if i bought educational versions, technically i wouldnt be able to use those to make money either, so educational versions would be out of the window as well if we want to get throuroughly strict, and then there is the issue of fonts as well, etc etc
in the 2 years ive spent a good 4-5 grand on computer hardware, now in the next few years i plan on getting the software, when i can afford it
as far as music, like i said, if i didnt "steal" songs, many artists wouldnt have me as a customer and wouldnt have my money, in all honesty it seems to be a double edged sword i guess... (and sampling low rate, parts of a couple of a songs on a cd isnt going to give me enough info about it to buy it.. IMO)
most people know me as a very giving and honest and moral person
but as soon as someone finds out i have pirated software they think im some sort of hacker, kidnapper, evil satanist or something, and its saddening because im only doing it out of need
also, if i bought educational versions, technically i wouldnt be able to use those to make money either, so educational versions would be out of the window as well if we want to get throuroughly strict, and then there is the issue of fonts as well, etc etc
in the 2 years ive spent a good 4-5 grand on computer hardware, now in the next few years i plan on getting the software, when i can afford it
as far as music, like i said, if i didnt "steal" songs, many artists wouldnt have me as a customer and wouldnt have my money, in all honesty it seems to be a double edged sword i guess... (and sampling low rate, parts of a couple of a songs on a cd isnt going to give me enough info about it to buy it.. IMO)
OK, now I am going to get defensive. I did in fact read all the posts, so nyahh.
As for the "not good enough for all the 'rich' people here", if you had actually bothered to read MY post from WAY back, you would see that I was the first to initiate the "steal now, pay later" approach conversationally. So, nyahh again.
As far as that strategy goes, I say go for it! As long as in the end it gets paid for. I'm sure the software companies would say otherwise.
Somehow, this became the "all about BuddaBob" thread, when in fact it was simply the "let's discuss the ethics of piracy" thread. None of my comments regarding morality/legality or otherwise were directed at Budda. As I stated, I used to be the Captain Hook of pirates for a while.
As for the "not good enough for all the 'rich' people here", if you had actually bothered to read MY post from WAY back, you would see that I was the first to initiate the "steal now, pay later" approach conversationally. So, nyahh again.
As far as that strategy goes, I say go for it! As long as in the end it gets paid for. I'm sure the software companies would say otherwise.
Somehow, this became the "all about BuddaBob" thread, when in fact it was simply the "let's discuss the ethics of piracy" thread. None of my comments regarding morality/legality or otherwise were directed at Budda. As I stated, I used to be the Captain Hook of pirates for a while.
I don't like to be stolen, so I pay for most of the software. I even paid for Office and all games that my children run (but freeware or shareware in demo mode).
Only exception, I don't always pay for upgrades. Not that I think it should be free, but some are really too expensive for the usage I have of it, and I still need the upgrade to be able to run the software in the current OS.
BTW I do the same for music or movie. It happens I donwload MP3, but I don't keep these. If I like the music, I buy the CD. Any divx quality is so bad that it is nothing else than a bad trailer.
Only exception, I don't always pay for upgrades. Not that I think it should be free, but some are really too expensive for the usage I have of it, and I still need the upgrade to be able to run the software in the current OS.
BTW I do the same for music or movie. It happens I donwload MP3, but I don't keep these. If I like the music, I buy the CD. Any divx quality is so bad that it is nothing else than a bad trailer.
georgelien
Registered
I'm proud to say that I pay for all of my software as well as my music. Creative people have to eat like the rest of us. We, as users, have the choice of using their stuff or not. While I agree that some software are too highly priced, I'm sick of people saying they have no choices. Users do have a choice! For example, I plan to replace MS Office 98 I bought back in college with OpenOffice for MacOS X, since I still need a native Office Suit for the new OS. MS Office is too expensive, so I'm not buying.
Please support software developers, because software is the soul of your computer!
Enjoy
Have Fun
'Cause you've got a Mac!
Regards,
George Lien
Please support software developers, because software is the soul of your computer!
Enjoy
Have Fun
'Cause you've got a Mac!
Regards,
George Lien
georgelien
Registered
Dear Ferrit,
I too don't like Microsoft much, nor do I like the way the company practices its business.
However, no matter how rich another person is, we--with the lesser money--have no right to steal from them.
Using software products to make or earn a living without paying to use them is like stealing. No argument will alter that fact.
Use the alternative products.
You have a choice--especially if you are an American.
Regards,
George Lien
PS: Correct me if I'm wrong.
I too don't like Microsoft much, nor do I like the way the company practices its business.
However, no matter how rich another person is, we--with the lesser money--have no right to steal from them.
Using software products to make or earn a living without paying to use them is like stealing. No argument will alter that fact.
Use the alternative products.
You have a choice--especially if you are an American.
Regards,
George Lien
PS: Correct me if I'm wrong.