Future of Apple With x86

[hulkaros]

...it has G3/G4 processors but for other reasons which NO-ONE mentions, so here are my 2 cents...

Other than mainboard+CPU(s) everything else inside ANY new Mac in the past few years, was and still is, really x86 platform's hardware: Ram, hard disks, cd-roms, dvd-roms, dvd-r, usb, etc. Also, if one says that mainboard+cpu(s) cost somewhere around $500 which is not much, how come any Mac costs more than a PC?

-The boxes and the design of them in general are far more expensive than the majority of PCs out there
-Apple OS
-Apple iApps
-Other apps
-Firewire
-Apple displays
-Apple Pro Keyboard
-Apple Pro Mouse
-Apple support
-Apple quality in all the above

Also, Apple sells ANY of the built-in parts or the ones that you want to add in any configuration more expensive than the majority of other companies out there...

So, there you have it! Those are the reasons that a Mac seems more expensive and not because it is running on Gx processors

Another reason that many people seem to forget is that when you compare a brand computer price do it properly: IBM, HP, Compaq VS Mac and not Dull, Alien-PC-ware, Gate-PCa-way VS mac!

And nope! Dull, et al are not Apple-like-quality at the Dark Side of the Force... Best sellers with low prices yes but anything above that, plain NO!

 

[fryke]

Very good post, RestrainedChaos. And then you say: "I disagree with the conspiracy theories that OSXx86 is already made, or anything absurd like that. It's too great a risk until the decision is made whether or not they're really going down that route. Because everyone -knows- it can be done. They'd just have to do it."

Fact is that Darwin X86 exists and is working. This is the core of the Mac OS X operating system.

Fact is that Cocoa was running on Intel hardware _before_ it was ever ported to PowerPC. And it's a highly portable, object oriented development platform. It makes no sense to cripple it, so rest assured: Cocoa for Intel is alive and well.

Fact is that you'll find strange stuff inside Mac OS X like the following: Type in your Terminal 'more /System/Library/StartupItems/AppleTalk/AppleTalk' and you'll see...

StartService ()
{
    if [ "${APPLETALK:=-NO-}" != "-NO-" ] &&
       [ "$(uname -p)" = "powerpc" ]; then

        ConsoleMessage "Starting AppleTalk"

Of course this is a relict from the Rhapsody DR 1 and 2 days, where this StartupScript decided whether to run AppleTalk or not, but they never took it out. But optimising OS X for speed would mean to review all code and strip everything unneeded.

Fact is that the Carbon subset of the original (Classic) Macintosh APIs are more or less ported to X86, because it took Apple just that when porting QuickTime. (Of course, this is an old rumour and a conspiracy theory, too, but I guess we can take this one for granted.)

Yes, there may still be large parts of the operating system that have never been 'ported', but everything Cocoa does not _have_ to be ported to be moved to X86. It's just a recompile away.

Mac OS X is highly portable stuff. For example, you don't access audio devices directly. You use 'Core Audio'. The reason? Portability. Many examples for this can be given by a Cocoa developer who has already coded for the OpenStep APIs, YellowBox of Rhapsody or maybe GNUstep, too.

Hmm... I should probably rewrite all this into a column on http://mac.fryke.com

 

[chemistry_geek]

The evidence of Mac OS X running on the x86 architecture is right there on your very own hard drive.

1. Open Sherlock

2. type 386

3. Press [return], [enter], or click the green circle with a black magnifying lens.

4. Sherlock returned Items Found: 48

Of particular interest is this:

/System/Library/Frameworks/IOKit.framework/Versions/A/Headers/i386

/Developer/Documentation/DeveloperTools/Assembler/i386_Instructions.html

If you didn't install the developer tools, you might not have this on your hard drive. Here's a quote from the HTML file:

i386 Addressing Modes and Assembler Instructions

This chapter contains information specific to the Intel i386 processor architecture, which includes the i386, i486, and Pentium processors. The first section, " i386 Registers and Addressing Modes," lists the registers available and describes the addressing modes used by assembler instructions. The second section, " i386 Assembler Instructions," lists each assembler instruction with Mac OS X assembler syntax.

Don't confuse the i386 architecture with the i386 processor. The Mac OS X Assembler for Intel processors makes use of instructions specific to the i486 processor, and will not run on an i386 processor.

I think it's correct to say that the Intel-type x86 architecture is Apple's first and least painful backup plan should PowerPC fail. I think that the "G5" we will see will very likely be the new 64-bit PowerPC Power4 varient (http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/08/09/1644223&mode=thread&tid=136) (http://news.com.com/2100-1001-949030.html) IBM will be discussing in October at some microprocessor conference. If you look at evidence present, what Steve Jobs said about "options being available next year", and Apple's future specs, I think it's clear that the new IBM chip will be the "G5". A move to x86 would be painless from the perspective that as a corporation, the Apple "Macintosh" would survive. No, it wouldn't be PowerPC, but the operating system and GUI would survive; it's a product, it would change, but it survives, which is all Apple (and Steve) is concerned about.

 

[hulkaros]

All these comments on how Mac OS X can be ported on intel/amd platform and supposedly proof on code fragments showing i386/i32 code that is in there (Mac OS X) I say to that:
Big freaking BOO! I simply say: Hold thy horses

We all know what NextStep/OpenStep was and still is and how those are parts of the big picture that Mac OS X is and will be. Or we all know about FreeBSD too!

However, there are many reasons why Apple will never go to x86 platform and if they will, methinks that they will choose Itanium2 or more possibly Hammer (Opteron if I'm not mistaken is the real name). Also, I think that they will exhaust all the available resources of their old AIM alliance regarding G4/G5 or something all different from IBM. Some examples are:
-Quad G4
-G5
-Power4
-Double and/or Quad G4 with HyperTransport
-G5 with HyperTransport
-Power4 with HyperTransport

I think they will avoid as long as they can the Dark Side of the Force for endless list of reasons. Cause guys don't you never forget that M$ is just a part of the Dark Side. We all know that the Dark Side consists of Amd, Intel, M$, Dell, HP/Compaq, et al and not just M$...

I know that the path to the Dark Side IS a temptation that all of us have and will have because it will make supposedly Apple sell more of its products or that will make Macs faster than currently are and many-many other reasons that such a solution seems VERY logical but this is what the Dark Side truly is... Gives you:
-More power
While makes you have:
-Less responsibilities
And in general:
-Makes things easier in our lives aka the "easy" way to do things even when those things are bad things in the long term...

Is really this the path that we want for our favorite company? I for one, believe that the day that a hero chooses the Dark Side of the Force I prefer to die than support him! Or is it that a REAL hero will never choose the Dark Side of the Force? Just a thought

 

[Tigger]

I really don't get it why some people say Intel and the others are "the dark side".
What is so damned bad about them? Is there soemthing to be afraid of?

Come on, if you think it is the business politics that make this companies bad, then just look at Apple:

-Intel made the P4 with MHz in mind, even if it does less Flops per tact --> Apple made this great new DDR Ram Board, where the DDR isn't used cause the CPU doesn't support it.

-Microsoft smashed Netscape by bundling IE with Windows and even integrating it in the OS --> Apple Quicktime: If I upgrade to OS 10.2, my Quicktime 5 Pro key will definitly go the way of the Dodo, and I am forced to buy another one, after only half a year. I even think of suing Apple about that.

So what is it that makes Intel and Co the darkside? Definitly not business practics...

 

[MisterMe]

Originally posted by Tigger
....

-Microsoft smashed Netscape by bundling IE with Windows and even integrating it in the OS --> Apple Quicktime: If I upgrade to OS 10.2, my Quicktime 5 Pro key will definitly go the way of the Dodo, and I am forced to buy another one, after only half a year.

MacOS X works just fine with the free version of QuickTime, or are you telling us something different?

I even think of suing Apple about that.
....

So, you want to sue over $30. I have friends at Dewey, Cheatham, and Howe. If you would like their number, let me know.

 

[Tigger]

The point is:
if I want to upgrade one product from Apple (Mac OS X), I have to downgrade another (Quicktime Pro to the free player, though it will be a newer version of that), and I have to pay for an upgrade for Quicktime too, if I want the Pro features back, even if I don't want the features like Mpeg4 that Quicktime 6 offers me, but I want my Pro features!

This is a business practice that some people just would call illegal. I am one of them.

 

[Oscar Castillo]

There is no future with x86 hardware.

 

[hulkaros]

Originally posted by Tigger
The point is:
if I want to upgrade one product from Apple (Mac OS X), I have to downgrade another (Quicktime Pro to the free player, though it will be a newer version of that), and I have to pay for an upgrade for Quicktime too, if I want the Pro features back, even if I don't want the features like Mpeg4 that Quicktime 6 offers me, but I want my Pro features!

This is a business practice that some people just would call illegal. I am one of them.

I think there is a solution to your problem if MPEG-4 is not something you currently need and it is a free solution too: Download QuickTime 5.xx Re-installer from Apple and your QT5Pro key is ready to use... That's it! QT5Pro features will be back no harm done, other than having no MPEG-4 that is

As for intel, et al why they REALLY are the Dark Side of the Force, you obviously know them as a simple customer and not as an everyday business like me... You will be surprised on how they sell you their products and especially those P4s! Haven't you noticed that the majority of PC companies, OEM or not, when they chose to sell AMD processors that they JUST sell Intel's products? By JUST selling I mean prices, availability, volume, etc. The same goes with M$ products if one company chooses to sell Linux, etc. instead of only their products. Isn't this telling you anything? If not, sorry I can't do anything for you...