"George Bush our hero!"

Israel and America are filled with Christian fundamentalists who would love to deny woment the right to vote and feel that all Muslims are heathens who need to be "saved" or eliminated.

The charging of interest on loans, or usury as the bible calls it, is one of the main reasons the Jews were so hated in Europe. Since the Bible expressly forbids it, whereas the Jewish tradition doesn't, the Jews became the bankers of Europe and therefore controlled a great deal of the money. Somehow Christianity was able to overcome the usury issue but it has never been able to overcome the anti-Jew thing. Most Muslims have also been able to overcome the usury issue through creative financing. So this is a rather weak attempt to paint the muslims as evil and only reinforces the crimes that Christianity has committed against the Jews in the name of religion.

Habilis, you are beginning to sound like the tortured russian souls who created communism. Their hatred of the elite was so powerful that anyone who stood in their way was going to be eliminated. Stalin made Hitler look like an amateur when it came to annhilating the citizens of Russia. All in the name of a centralized government with one single goal: to control everything and everyone. Of course, this was all for their own good.


ebolag4, you've taken a very poetic turn! The question remains however, who hired the gardener to prune the rose and who commissioned the smith to make the sword?

Real roses don't need pruning. Swords are made for one purpose only, to slay humans.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, we reap what we sow.
 
habilis, they hate us some for those things, yes, but mostly they hate us because they see it as the US poking into their affairs.
 
Originally posted by Darkshadow
habilis, they hate us some for those things, yes, but mostly they hate us because they see it as the US poking into their affairs.
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Arab fundamentalists hate the occidental world as a whole.

But fundamentalism is not only Arab, and not only directed towards the Western democracies. The power of fundamentalism resides in the hatred of:

Social groups esp. minorities
Ethnical - Kurds, immigrants
Religious - Jews, Sunnites
Social - idle classes, women
Cultural - homosexuals

Civilizations
Distant ones - Arabs fundm. / Western World
Neighbours - China fundm. / Japan (earlier in XXth cent.)
 
OK Ugg. I'm probably what most of you would call a "fundamentalist" Christian, and I don't believe that women shouldn't be able to vote, or that Muslims should be eliminated. I do, however, desire to see all people (Muslim or otherwise) saved. That is a "fundamental" part of my faith. If I don't follow my faith to the uttermost, then what do I have? Nothing.

OK. So I was poetic. I'll admit, I was being sappy on purpose. I don't know about the rose thing, I'm not a gardener. I'll have to ask Ed about that one. As to the sword analogy, yes swords are made primarily for killing. But sometimes that killing is defensive and not offensive. A sword can be used either way. I collect swords and put them on my wall. I believe they are beautiful works of art. Does that make me a killer?

I agree whole heartedly with your statement "we reap what we sow." We must all be willing to face the consequences of our actions and ideals whether they be postive or negative.

To those sending me messages about my new byline: I'm making fun of the characture that some of you make some of us out to be. Do I want and wish for war? NO! Do I fully support the President and the war effort? YES! So I suppose that make me a dirty, nasty, evil, stupid, right-wing, fundamentalist, Christian whack-job.

Well, so be it!
 
Originally posted by ebolag4
OK Ugg. I'm probably what most of you would call a "fundamentalist" Christian, and I don't believe that women shouldn't be able to vote, or that Muslims should be eliminated. I do, however, desire to see all people (Muslim or otherwise) saved. That is a "fundamental" part of my faith. If I don't follow my faith to the uttermost, then what do I have? Nothing.

OK. So I was poetic. I'll admit, I was being sappy on purpose. I don't know about the rose thing, I'm not a gardener. I'll have to ask Ed about that one. As to the sword analogy, yes swords are made primarily for killing. But sometimes that killing is defensive and not offensive. A sword can be used either way. I collect swords and put them on my wall. I believe they are beautiful works of art. Does that make me a killer?

I agree whole heartedly with your statement "we reap what we sow." We must all be willing to face the consequences of our actions and ideals whether they be postive or negative.

To those sending me messages about my new byline: I'm making fun of the characture that some of you make some of us out to be. Do I want and wish for war? NO! Do I fully support the President and the war effort? YES! So I suppose that make me a dirty, nasty, evil, stupid, right-wing, fundamentalist, Christian whack-job.

Well, so be it!
Click to expand...

I've never understood the whole "saved or damned" concept of Christianity. Does it exist in Islam or Judaism? Obviously the entire point of it is to provide a club house for religious hatred. "If you are not of my faith and do not believe in the one and only true god then you are damned for eternity and it is my duty to save you from that damnation." Where is the tolerance that Christianity trumpets so loudly? My problem with all the religious hatred going on today is that people only seem to quote from the old testament not the new. In other words they choose the record of the prophets instead of christ. What's that all about?

You sword collection doesn't mean that you are killer only that you have a fixation on the human potential for violence, whether it is defensive or offensive is of little importance.

I love the works of Bach, and all of his musical masterpieces were devoted to the glory of his god. I think belief is a wonderful thing and if religion were to focus its efforts on the elevation of the good things on this planet rather than the ugly then I would be a lot more tolerant of religion in general.

I actually like your byline, good sarcasm is hard to come by these days.
 
I don't know if any of you remember the speech Blair gave at new year on the 1st of january 2002 ... Certainly he doesn't ... but he said that making swords began a very long time ago with crude clubs of bone or wood. So man invented the crude shield, then swords and metal shield, then guns and bullet-proof vests. But how does one protect himself from bombs other than running away from them?
 
Originally posted by anerki
But how does one protect himself from bombs other than running away from them?
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Don't engage in actions that make bombs fall on you, kinda like pre-emping yourself or like the old saying by Ice Cube goes; "Chikkity Check yourself befor ya wreck yaself". Is this a trick question?
 
Ah, now, habilis, are you saying that every bomb ever dropped was dropped because the people it fell on deserved it? Somehow this just doesn't quite jibe with what the history books say. Unless of course it is all a communist/socialist attempt to rewrite history?!?!?!?!?
 
Originally posted by Ugg
I've never understood the whole "saved or damned" concept of Christianity. Does it exist in Islam or Judaism? Obviously the entire point of it is to provide a club house for religious hatred. "If you are not of my faith and do not believe in the one and only true god then you are damned for eternity and it is my duty to save you from that damnation." Where is the tolerance that Christianity trumpets so loudly? My problem with all the religious hatred going on today is that people only seem to quote from the old testament not the new. In other words they choose the record of the prophets instead of christ. What's that all about?
Click to expand...

OK, here's the scoop on the whole "saved" thing. Let's just imagine for a moment this scenario: 1. There is a God. 2. He created everything, therefore He decides how everything works. 3. Since He decided how everything works, and since He decided that there was only one way to come to Him (heaven), then that's that. 4. That He has decided that everyone who doesn't do it His way is damned (Hell). 5. That He did command everyone who is His follower to go out and tell others. To "convert" others. 6. That God has revealed Himself to man through various means. 7. That you personally have come to believe and trust in Him. 8. That this faith is the very core of your being. It is who you are. 9. Therefore, every part of your life is governed by these beliefs, and even though sometimes you don't understand, and even many times don't agree with His decisions, it doesn't matter. (Reference #2). It all comes down to this. If those statements are true, then what I think really doesn't matter. If that is hatred in man's eyes, then that's man's opinion. Someone who believes the above is not concerned with man's opinion on the matter. That may sound heartless to some, but........

This is not for the sole purpose of creating a "club" where those who are "saved" are better than others. There is not religious hatred (yes, there are extremist among Christians as with other faiths), but if the steps above are presupposed to be true, then yes there is a belief of one faith being "better" than another. Let's face it, speaking from a purely logical viewpoint, that can't ALL be right. So either they are all wrong (which I obviously don't believe), or only ONE is the "right" one.

Where is the tolerance in Christianity. Witness those who will go to the far reaches of the world to help bring medical care, food and basic necessities to those around the world, regardless of race or religion. (Yes, I acknowledge that there are non-Christian groups that do the same.) Let us not equate tolerance with acceptance or approval. If a murderer walks into my church and asks to be shown how to be "saved" I will accept him as a brother, but I will never condone the murder he has committed.

As for the quoting only the OT and not the NT or the words of Christ. I feel that someone who believes the Bible is God's Word, should read from both. Only through reading both can full understanding even be glimpsed.

Holy cow. Enough rambling! Sorry to turn this thread into yet another theological discussion.
 
this may be out of topic, but i have a problem with women working!!

men just don't seem to get those jobs anymore. (well atleast not so easily)
 
Alas not even ebolag4 is absoutly right!!

If u want to know more on the Turth, eh by now you should know what to do, but just incase u don't... ATTEND THE SUNDAY MASS REGULARLY, YES GO TO CHURCH PEOPLE... YOUR WORK and LEISURE IS NOT AS IMPORTANT AS GOD.
 
Everybody clap for the extremist :p

I believe bomb shelters would be the shield from bombs. Not that everyone has one convienently close by, but I do believe they were made for that purpose. :D

There's only so much of the old testament in the bible that you can quote before you start boring everybody to death with your quotes. The only interesting parts of it are the prophets - the rest is all about who went where and how many they were, how big this city was or how small that one was...I can't believe people actually wanted to save that. :p

Just so I don't start up a flame going on here, no I'm not a Christian, but I have read the bible...more than once...in an attempt to understand the religion better. It didn't help me any, but I learned that if I ever decide to read it again, I'm gonna skip entire sections of the OT.

Hmm...and for you Christians readin this, I do have a question about Genesis. Ok, Adam and Eve get kicked out of the garden of eden. They have two kids, then one kills the other. Cain goes running off to live with a tribe of people. If Adam and Eve only had two kids at that point, then who the heck are these people that Cain went off to live with??
 
Darkshadow: This may not be an acceptable answer unless you believe the Bible is absolutely true. From a literalist's point of view (like me) this is an easy one. Cain moved with brothers and sisters, and cousin and so forth. We do not know how many children Adam and Eve had, but we reason that someone who lives hundreds of years could potentially have hundreds of children and thousands of grandchildren. The restriction against marriage to an immediate family member is not found in the Scripture until hundred (maybe thousands) of years later. Again, this may be an unacceptable answer for some, but this goes back to the faith issue.

wiz: huh?
 
What's still more intriguing is that god in the beginning created "Man and woman" (as equals) ... and then created Eve out of Adam yet again ... as a servant ... Mmmh ...

Then the whole point of women working ... well, I know about the priest thing at least there are two schools of thought: 1) women are not good enough to be priests 2) women are too holy to be priest, since they have the godly function to (pro)create. Pick your choice ...
 
Christianity, eh? Ebolag, nice to read from ya again (it's been a while for me.)

I think the official word on the Christian street is that Adam & Eve had many more kiddies than just Cain & Able. This implies that Cain and his other siblings inter-married and produced the rest of the human race. Also, it is assumed that genetic mutation by close-family offspring was not an issue at this point of the human race, so it would have been feasible. Genetic mutation was probably part of the curse of the Fall, and kicked in gradually. God's commandment later on in history to not marry close relatives was probably (at least partly) because of these mutations.

Ebolag brought up an intersting point about the age of humans in the Old Testament (up to 969 years.) Again, this phenomenon is explained by the Curse. Humans were originally designed to live forever, but part of the punishment was death. The gradual degradation of lifespans is the result.

Now I'm wondering how many eyes I got rolling... ;) But hey, that's what I believe.
 
Oh, and p.s.

I don't consider myself a religious fanatic, even though I hold literalist views. I believe in compassion, whether they are a Christian or not. But I also believe in appropriate punishment (bring on the Death Penalty debate!)

Eh, back to work. I'm over my break! :eek:
 
I've never understood the whole point of the death penalty outside of the old testament "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth". GW surely didn't have any problems sending hundreds of people to their death but then that is probably an indication of his wannabe Texan status and his born again Christian approach. Have you ever noticed that it is the people who lead the most f*****ed up lives that seem to become born again?

The argument seems to be that it is somehow a deterrent for those who commit violent crime. It seems that when you add drugs and a seriously dysfunctional society, and a government despite all its rhetoric (rightist or leftist) that is unwilling to tackle the social issues underlying the problem more and more people are going to commit crimes because the lives they lead aren't worth anything anyway. Plus Hollywood just glorifies the violence of our country so that guns and blood stained streets are viewed as the norm not the exception.

Why would you ever want to kill another human being? I can understand self-defense, to a point but I can't understand cold-blooded murder which the death penalty is. I also think that the death penalty is a result of the rampant gun cultrue in this country. Just my rambling thoughts...
 
Actually the bible reads 'Thou shallt not murder' and not 'Thou shallt not kill'. This is not known by many but 'Thou shallt not kill' comes from the Hebrew (or sa culture 'a la' Hebrew) version of the Bible, the Aramesian (how do you spell it in English) version says 'Thou shallt not murder'. There is a 70% chance the correct and oldest version is the Aramesian, only 30% probability the Hebrew is the correct and oldest version. By accident and probably because it was more spread, the Hebrew version was copied in Latin, and so on ... Not that that justifies a war, murder is without the consent of the person, killing is an accident or with consent. (Example: You don't murder an ant by accidently stepping on it, of course if you're with Greenpeace that might count towards murder :)) Also, this justifies the disconnecting of a terminally ill patient who will die soon and is in suffering.
 
*UGH*

My head's starting to hurt!

I have a lot I could say at this point, but I just don't have the strength. Ugg, think of some aspects of Christianity like mass media. The reason it seems that those who are born-again are always people that have majorly messed-up pasts (or present) is that it is they are the ones that are trumpted as gloriously changed llives. The Christian media likes to latch onto those who have "dark" pasts, but the average everyday Christian is just a common guy or girl. Many have been brought out of "darkness," but that darkness is no more "heinous" that the average person's. Some are indeed "saved" from tragic/(self)destructive lives/lifestyles, but not all. I would say the minority in fact. (That's my opinion based on nearly 30 years of observation, not based on any hard "stats").

That's the point of view of this Christian Texan.
 
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