It only took him 6 weeks 800billion dollars, 1,000 tons of explosives, 1,500 civilian deaths, and who will ever know how many children suffering concussion injuries to figure out what most of the world's population has told him for six months. Iraq is not a military threat. I'm soooooo proud.
"George Bush our hero!"
- Thread starter kendall
- Start date
Some examples of Bush-Hitler resemblance:
State of the Union Speech: Bush Declares war on the world
Bush Speech on Middle East: Ignorance, Arrogance, Imperialism
Bush and Hitler: Compare and Contrast
If anybody has more articles, send them to me in a msg and I'll gladly add them here!
State of the Union Speech: Bush Declares war on the world
Bush Speech on Middle East: Ignorance, Arrogance, Imperialism
Bush and Hitler: Compare and Contrast
If anybody has more articles, send them to me in a msg and I'll gladly add them here!
toast
Gone !
Anerki,
Look at your sources:
- World Socialist Web Site, published by the International Committee of the Fourth International.
- Pravda.ru: "Say what you want! PRAVDA.Ru will hear you!"
- Counterpunch seems more credible, hopefully.
The problem is, anerki, that demagogic speech is proper to the political class in general. It has also been proven that those politicians who tend not to use it in normal times do when big political events come (war, elections, etc.). The whole thesis is by a man called Giovanni Sartori. Throw it a glance.
Look at your sources:
- World Socialist Web Site, published by the International Committee of the Fourth International.
- Pravda.ru: "Say what you want! PRAVDA.Ru will hear you!"
- Counterpunch seems more credible, hopefully.
The problem is, anerki, that demagogic speech is proper to the political class in general. It has also been proven that those politicians who tend not to use it in normal times do when big political events come (war, elections, etc.). The whole thesis is by a man called Giovanni Sartori. Throw it a glance.
binaryDigit
Registered
Thank you toast for throwing a little reasoning into all this. What's so funny is that many who might consider themselves enlightened (and those who "fall" for Bush's rhetoric unenlightened) will read things like this, take their tenuous conclusions and then propagate them. Just because some journos (who OBVIOUSLY have differing views) write that "Bush rattled sword, Hitler rattled sword, Bush defies peaceful countries , Hitler defies peaceful countries, therefore Bush == Hitler", all of a sudden this becomes a mantra. Forgetting things like common sense, context and an understanding of politics. To compare the two based on their actions is to expose oneself as someone who is so into ones own politics that it has obviously clouded their thinking.
toast
Gone !
I do not like G.W. Bush very much, as all people here know from reading the war threads.
But if I had to compare him to some people, here's my list. Comparison to...
- Other American political figures: Ros Perot and Ronald Reagan, and also Pdt. Jackson.
- Eurasian political figures: Silvio Berlusconi, Vladimir Putin.
But if I had to compare him to some people, here's my list. Comparison to...
- Other American political figures: Ros Perot and Ronald Reagan, and also Pdt. Jackson.
- Eurasian political figures: Silvio Berlusconi, Vladimir Putin.
You do have a point there (both of you), fact remains what he did is wrong 
and in my opinion you have to be, well, you know, not to see it.
What I think lacks in the US, sorry for all you americans out there, is a view of history. I don't know what they teach in the US except for what I've heard, the american history and a little bit of world history too. In Belgium and Europe in common, we get everything from the Chinese/Egyptian empires in the ancient times till now: the US, China, Sovjet Union, ... Americans lack history, and knowledge of it. And I think that's a terrible thing not to have (of course if you don't know it you don't know what you're missing)
and in my opinion you have to be, well, you know, not to see it.What I think lacks in the US, sorry for all you americans out there, is a view of history. I don't know what they teach in the US except for what I've heard, the american history and a little bit of world history too. In Belgium and Europe in common, we get everything from the Chinese/Egyptian empires in the ancient times till now: the US, China, Sovjet Union, ... Americans lack history, and knowledge of it. And I think that's a terrible thing not to have (of course if you don't know it you don't know what you're missing)
binaryDigit
Registered
Originally posted by anerki
You do have a point there (both of you), fact remains what he did is wrong
Well some agree and some disagree. I have no problem with either side as long as their arguments are "reasonable". It's just that sometimes people have a tendency to start to "stray" and their arguments start losing touch with reality.
Well we do get a fair amount of history about things other than the US. Of course most of it is focused on the US (at least the stuff that's required). I think the bigger problem is one of retention and applicability. Fact is for a European, you have to be more aware of other European countries at a minimum due to the geography and economics of the area. Europeans are also much closer to other areas such as the Middle East, keeping these things in for forefront and therefore helping them keep in context. The US really is a big island in that for many things, we are self contained (with a few notable exceptions). And even when there is a dependency on other countries, much of what ends up here has been filtered through US companies. Oil is an excellent example. Someone from the US usually equates Exxon or Shell with gas, not Iraq or Kuwait (current events not withstanding).
toast
Gone !
I will speak very frankly about this education question.
Point #1: The US education system is complete crap. I can't believe this world still counts some countries where you may be taught creationism in public school (basically, creationism is believing that Adam and Eve founded this Earth and that dinosaurs and Big Bang is state bullsh!t)[/size=1].
Evidence: This report provides initial findings from the first cycle of the Program for International Student Assessment (PISA). The report gives information on achievement of 15-year-olds in reading literacy, mathematics literacy, and science literacy in the United States and 31 other participating nations.
Point #2: The German education system, for example, is even worse. This three-school system is a total failure, even if what it was aiming at (less scolar failure) is of the most honorable.
Evidence: Program for International Assesment (better known, esp. from german people, as the PISA studies, which are financed and led by the OECD).
Conclusion: education explains a lot. However, the US are not the lower standard of education. If you read both links, you will learn that 25% Americans aged 15 can't locate the US on a world map; but you will also learn 27% Germans aged 15 can't locate Germany on a world map. Sic.
This is NOT boasting/showing off/etc. , but you should know France is at a very high level, close to Canada, Quebec, Scandinavia etc.
Point #1: The US education system is complete crap. I can't believe this world still counts some countries where you may be taught creationism in public school (basically, creationism is believing that Adam and Eve founded this Earth and that dinosaurs and Big Bang is state bullsh!t)[/size=1].
Evidence: This report provides initial findings from the first cycle of the Program for International Student Assessment (PISA). The report gives information on achievement of 15-year-olds in reading literacy, mathematics literacy, and science literacy in the United States and 31 other participating nations.
Point #2: The German education system, for example, is even worse. This three-school system is a total failure, even if what it was aiming at (less scolar failure) is of the most honorable.
Evidence: Program for International Assesment (better known, esp. from german people, as the PISA studies, which are financed and led by the OECD).
Conclusion: education explains a lot. However, the US are not the lower standard of education. If you read both links, you will learn that 25% Americans aged 15 can't locate the US on a world map; but you will also learn 27% Germans aged 15 can't locate Germany on a world map. Sic.
This is NOT boasting/showing off/etc. , but you should know France is at a very high level, close to Canada, Quebec, Scandinavia etc.
habilis
Ministry of Re-Education
Toast, I'm gonna defy conventions and agree with you on American Schools.
I consider myself to be a staunch conservative and capitalist with strong nationalist viewpoints and feelings. I'm so nationalist I get a shiver down my spine and a rush of pride every time I see an American Flag. That being said, when it comes to religion, the consertives and I part ways. In my experience with the dismal failure of American public school we were never taught creationism in any way, as well we shouldn't have.
In fact, there's a movement afoot right now by the religious zealots in my state to institute teaching of a new theory called "Intelligent Design" - in other words, put a new label on creationism and try to sneak it into our children's minds. Luckily it was struck down in Ohio Supreme Court just recently.
I don't mind saying I'm at best a pragmatic agnost, and at worst a skeptical athiest. I can firmly say I don't know what or who god is, and I'm baffled by people that think they do know. I mean, how can 2 religions even co-exist if there is only 1 god? It flys in the face of reason and logic. As strong as I feel about that, I actually don't mind hearing other people invoke his name in certain circumstances, politics and anything run by the state is not one of them.
If intelligent alien life ever reaches the Earth, he's going to see millions of primitive little creatures running about kiling each other in the name of man-made apparitions that tell them to do so. Hitlers first official actions against the German Jews was a boycott on Jewish businesses, stating "I believe that I act today in unison with the Almighty Creator's intention: by fighting Jews, I do battle for The Lord". If god exists, religion itself is blasphemy.
I consider myself to be a staunch conservative and capitalist with strong nationalist viewpoints and feelings. I'm so nationalist I get a shiver down my spine and a rush of pride every time I see an American Flag. That being said, when it comes to religion, the consertives and I part ways. In my experience with the dismal failure of American public school we were never taught creationism in any way, as well we shouldn't have.
In fact, there's a movement afoot right now by the religious zealots in my state to institute teaching of a new theory called "Intelligent Design" - in other words, put a new label on creationism and try to sneak it into our children's minds. Luckily it was struck down in Ohio Supreme Court just recently.
I don't mind saying I'm at best a pragmatic agnost, and at worst a skeptical athiest. I can firmly say I don't know what or who god is, and I'm baffled by people that think they do know. I mean, how can 2 religions even co-exist if there is only 1 god? It flys in the face of reason and logic. As strong as I feel about that, I actually don't mind hearing other people invoke his name in certain circumstances, politics and anything run by the state is not one of them.
If intelligent alien life ever reaches the Earth, he's going to see millions of primitive little creatures running about kiling each other in the name of man-made apparitions that tell them to do so. Hitlers first official actions against the German Jews was a boycott on Jewish businesses, stating "I believe that I act today in unison with the Almighty Creator's intention: by fighting Jews, I do battle for The Lord". If god exists, religion itself is blasphemy.
habilis
Ministry of Re-Education
binaryDigit
Registered
Frankly I don't know of any public schools that teach creationism. I'm sure they're out there, but I would bet that they are a small percentage. But even if they did, I fail to see how this has anything to do with anything. My wife and I are looking at private schools for our kids. The highest scoring schools are most often religiously affliated. Having a religious bent and having a crap education are totally unrelated, regardless of what your views of religion are.
As for the US school system. Well as you might guess, we wouldn't be looking at private schools if we thought that the public school system was perfect (though the school district that we live in is excellent). But I think that what many are learning is that achievement and the "school system" are not absolutely related. I like to impress upon my wife that _I_ went to public schools (no snickers from the peanut gallery please) and _she_ went to public schools (though with some private schooling as well). Parental involvment and, relatedly, parental attitude towards education play a huge part. The good/sad part is that an excellent education is never more than some dollars away (either via private schools or moving to "better" school districts which typically equals more expensive neighborhoods).
To be honest, I think the whole religion in schools thing is a red herring. Similar to the myth that more money spent per student equals a better education. After all, being taught one view of our origins does not affect ones ability to read or do math or learn geography. I know it's important to parents due to their own beliefs, but in the broader sense it has no bearing on the overall quality of education. When people are more concerned about their kids praying vs their kids being able to do basic math then we start having bigger problems.
Oh and your definition of creationism is but one. I know many people who have a more "logical" view of creationism. One that can encompass big bang and pre-oil. Not all creationists are paranoid zealots who believe anything that counters the things they are taught are govt funded attempts to deceive and cast their citizens unto sin
edX
mac shaman
i wouldn't get too excited about this news nor try to use it as some condemnation of the american education system. after seeing this posted in my local post office, i questioned my 14 yo son about this and he was able to verbally describe to me where the US is and what it looks like. when i told him why i asked, he just laughed at me and told me that lots of kids always mark the wrong answers on purpose on anything they aren't being graded on.
it is true our education system needs work, but i would venture it is a lot better than you think it is toast. don't be quite so quick to judge what you don't know first hand.
edX
mac shaman
as for creationism in schools, i would be more worried if our kids weren't made aware of the variety of theories that exist for how we came to be rather than having any one of them presented as truth. at best, all are only theories. yet, this remains one of the most compelling questions of all times.
Ugg
Registered
Education in the US is as varied and as diverse as the population. Personally, I believe the key to a good education is living in a community with a dedicated school board.
GW came on board stating that he was going to be the education prez, with his grandiose and 19th century ideas of testing everyone to death. Rote memorization is definitely a part of education but not all of it. He also was going to reward the school districts that succeded in the tests and penalize those that failed. In addition to massive subsidisation of private education at the expense of the public schools. We've not heard a whisper for months now, although his tax cut continues to be in the headlines.
Religious based education is successful in the US because it is able to educate the cream of American youth. You'll not find children born dependent on drugs or alcohol, nor will you find autistic, behaviourally disadvantaged; ie the dregs of American children in private schools. Rarely will you find a private school that is surrounded by barbed wire, with metal detectors at the door and armed officers patrolling the grounds. Should there be any disruptions in the classroom or illicit drugs/weapons on a private campus, the children can be kicked out with no chance of coming back. What we are seeing is the beginning of a class based society, one that is turning its back on the problems of society instead of trying to solve them.
I understand the concerns of parents who want only the best for their children and really don't blame them for pulling them out of what are oftentimes little more than urban warzones. But, the long term effects of this refusal to deal with the problems of public education will haunt this country for a long time if we don't face up to it now.
Control of education should be returned to the control of the local community. Minimum educational standards should be instituted nation wide. Science should be taught as science, religion as religion. Congress should be forced to provide direct funding for all of its grandiose schemes rather than force localities to pay for what it often doesn't want.
The major problem with education and with life in America in general is that we have all bought the lie that we are all created equal and that the pursuit of happiness and wealth is there for the taking. This has led to an education system that forces all students into 13 years of education in which only the last 3 or 4 allow the student to make any choice. Not all of us want to bankers or fishermen or lab technicians and in order for us to prepare for our separate dreams we need to have the appropriate education. There is nothing worse than sitting in a class where 25% of the students are bored stiff because they already know it all, 25% could care less, and the middle 50% muddle along as best they can. Unless we allow students to make a choice earlier than they do now based on the abilities and desires, what's the point?
The magnet school idea has drawn a lot of acclaim in many areas. Imagine a school district that has a school for the arts, one for the business professions, one for sciences, one for technology, etc. Students love these schools because they are able to focus on what they want. These schools could be the future, but GW wants to take us back a century to a time when only the elite got an education and the poor were allowed to sink or swim.
Universal education is the key to success for any society. Period.
GW came on board stating that he was going to be the education prez, with his grandiose and 19th century ideas of testing everyone to death. Rote memorization is definitely a part of education but not all of it. He also was going to reward the school districts that succeded in the tests and penalize those that failed. In addition to massive subsidisation of private education at the expense of the public schools. We've not heard a whisper for months now, although his tax cut continues to be in the headlines.
Religious based education is successful in the US because it is able to educate the cream of American youth. You'll not find children born dependent on drugs or alcohol, nor will you find autistic, behaviourally disadvantaged; ie the dregs of American children in private schools. Rarely will you find a private school that is surrounded by barbed wire, with metal detectors at the door and armed officers patrolling the grounds. Should there be any disruptions in the classroom or illicit drugs/weapons on a private campus, the children can be kicked out with no chance of coming back. What we are seeing is the beginning of a class based society, one that is turning its back on the problems of society instead of trying to solve them.
I understand the concerns of parents who want only the best for their children and really don't blame them for pulling them out of what are oftentimes little more than urban warzones. But, the long term effects of this refusal to deal with the problems of public education will haunt this country for a long time if we don't face up to it now.
Control of education should be returned to the control of the local community. Minimum educational standards should be instituted nation wide. Science should be taught as science, religion as religion. Congress should be forced to provide direct funding for all of its grandiose schemes rather than force localities to pay for what it often doesn't want.
The major problem with education and with life in America in general is that we have all bought the lie that we are all created equal and that the pursuit of happiness and wealth is there for the taking. This has led to an education system that forces all students into 13 years of education in which only the last 3 or 4 allow the student to make any choice. Not all of us want to bankers or fishermen or lab technicians and in order for us to prepare for our separate dreams we need to have the appropriate education. There is nothing worse than sitting in a class where 25% of the students are bored stiff because they already know it all, 25% could care less, and the middle 50% muddle along as best they can. Unless we allow students to make a choice earlier than they do now based on the abilities and desires, what's the point?
The magnet school idea has drawn a lot of acclaim in many areas. Imagine a school district that has a school for the arts, one for the business professions, one for sciences, one for technology, etc. Students love these schools because they are able to focus on what they want. These schools could be the future, but GW wants to take us back a century to a time when only the elite got an education and the poor were allowed to sink or swim.
Universal education is the key to success for any society. Period.
habilis
Ministry of Re-Education
quote by toast:
you will learn that 25% Americans aged 15 can't locate the US on a world map
The unstated demographic about that statistic is that probably 80% of that 25% are single-parent welfare-enslaved inner-city kids who's PARENTS don't even know where America is on a map.
And besides that, the only thing I ever really learned at my lily-white public school was that it was a typical example of how anything that is a state-run monopoly, in other words, socialist and communist in nature, fails miserably. That was when it first hit me, 2nd period 9th grade social science class. I'll never forget it.
quote by Ugg:
GW wants to take us back a century to a time when only the elite got an education and the poor were allowed to sink or swim.
What about the GW administrations idea of vouchers Ugg? That allows inner-city kids to go to a private school?
And besides, the whole idea is to destroy the scurge of welfare because it keeps people addicted to handouts and their minds numbed. That's how the democrats get their precious votes; the welfare-enslaved poor know what party will give them more handouts, the social democrats. Thats how the democrats expanded and broadened the ghettos and segregated us. It keeps people impoverished because why would they ever need to get better at anything if they always get welfare handouts. This is called communism, and that's why it failed and will always fail. People never learn to feed themselves in a welfare state. Like the old saying goes; "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, TEACH a man to fish and you feed him for life."
you will learn that 25% Americans aged 15 can't locate the US on a world map
The unstated demographic about that statistic is that probably 80% of that 25% are single-parent welfare-enslaved inner-city kids who's PARENTS don't even know where America is on a map.
And besides that, the only thing I ever really learned at my lily-white public school was that it was a typical example of how anything that is a state-run monopoly, in other words, socialist and communist in nature, fails miserably. That was when it first hit me, 2nd period 9th grade social science class. I'll never forget it.
quote by Ugg:
GW wants to take us back a century to a time when only the elite got an education and the poor were allowed to sink or swim.
What about the GW administrations idea of vouchers Ugg? That allows inner-city kids to go to a private school?
And besides, the whole idea is to destroy the scurge of welfare because it keeps people addicted to handouts and their minds numbed. That's how the democrats get their precious votes; the welfare-enslaved poor know what party will give them more handouts, the social democrats. Thats how the democrats expanded and broadened the ghettos and segregated us. It keeps people impoverished because why would they ever need to get better at anything if they always get welfare handouts. This is called communism, and that's why it failed and will always fail. People never learn to feed themselves in a welfare state. Like the old saying goes; "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, TEACH a man to fish and you feed him for life."
Ugg
Registered
You can teach a person to flip burgers but that doesn't mean that he will earn enough to afford to eat them.
The reason the communists came into existence is because the ruling classes of the time reserved all the profits for themselves. The peasants were tired of working for little or nothing and being used as cannon fodder for wars created to enrich the leaders not the masses. One could draw parallels to GW & Co. and one wonders if history will repeat itself if the rich continue to get richer and the poor poorer.
The vouchers don't cover the full cost of education in most private schools.
Habilis, you rant and rave about the intrusions that government makes but you make no case for what government should be. I almost think that you must believe that government should exist only for making war. I would be very interested in hearing your opinion. By definition any republic needs a government and since we live in a democratic republic, we are all able to vote for the representative of our choice who then, hopefully, will create legislation in line with our desires. Where has it all gone wrong? Or, was it ever right in the first place?
The reason the communists came into existence is because the ruling classes of the time reserved all the profits for themselves. The peasants were tired of working for little or nothing and being used as cannon fodder for wars created to enrich the leaders not the masses. One could draw parallels to GW & Co. and one wonders if history will repeat itself if the rich continue to get richer and the poor poorer.
The vouchers don't cover the full cost of education in most private schools.
Habilis, you rant and rave about the intrusions that government makes but you make no case for what government should be. I almost think that you must believe that government should exist only for making war. I would be very interested in hearing your opinion. By definition any republic needs a government and since we live in a democratic republic, we are all able to vote for the representative of our choice who then, hopefully, will create legislation in line with our desires. Where has it all gone wrong? Or, was it ever right in the first place?
habilis
Ministry of Re-Education
Good point Ugg, I agree I haven't explained myself.
To better explain my intentions:
I'm a freedom monger, I think it's the only thing that is worth fighting and dying for. This concept is very hard to grasp if you haven't lived in oppression, very easy to grasp if you have.
I have 2 grandparents, a father, and about 8 other close relatives that have lived in opression in the Soviet Union for decades and then defected to the U.S. I guess I have seen through their eyes and experiences. This is one of my motivational components when it comes to my lack of respect for the whole socialist/communist structure.
As far as a perfect government in my eyes, I realize most importantly that a perfect utopian government is impossible until people become perfect. I don't want to bore you with paragraphs of my idea of a perfect government but the gist is that by removing social safety nets like the forced Social Security pay deduction and welfare of all types we all have a lot more money to spend, thereby creating more jobs. The other gist is that by strictly limiting these social safety nets(that we pay for in high taxes) the lower class are forced to raise their education levels and become more focused on being a productive member of society and figure out where to best invest their money for the future. It also promotes stronger family bonds because if there are very limited social safety nets, the only place to turn would be family if you lost your job. Government does need to play a role in industry regulation but it's been proven by the Soviets that hardline government intrusion leads to disaster.
Those proven principals are what built the U.S. and what can save it from the inevitable implosion that lurks on the horizon. By default we are an Empire, and empires collapse when they overextend not only in foreign policy but in domestic policy as well. This overextension in our domestic policy to me is what will eventually lead to our collapse and I would love to prevent it.
toast
Gone !
As a complement to what was said about creationism (Habilis got it right: Intelligent Design they call it), there's a link page about it.
The OECD PISA Studies were marked, in such a way to avoid the basic defiant attitude you described just before. See the UK PISA home, or the American one. On top of that, PISA studies obey to the usual polls' trules and techniques, which mean that the core results are altered* to make sure the answers are rational.
It is necessary indeed to learn that many theories compete about the origin of life on Earth. The difference is that creationism is not a theory at all but a simplistic credo, made from nothing but pseudo-biblical reference. Check what the Academy of Science has said on the topic.
*NOTE: redressing and confirmation questioning, for example.
The OECD PISA Studies were marked, in such a way to avoid the basic defiant attitude you described just before. See the UK PISA home, or the American one. On top of that, PISA studies obey to the usual polls' trules and techniques, which mean that the core results are altered* to make sure the answers are rational.
It is necessary indeed to learn that many theories compete about the origin of life on Earth. The difference is that creationism is not a theory at all but a simplistic credo, made from nothing but pseudo-biblical reference. Check what the Academy of Science has said on the topic.
*NOTE: redressing and confirmation questioning, for example.
Toast:
Well then let's keep to France and Belgium for example. In Belgium I finished school at 18, well University now but hey ... Anyway, I know 4 languages standard, everyone in Belgium who graduated last 15 years or so knows 4 languages, all others do 3 ... I don't know how things go in Germany but oh well, there's always an exception ... I had an article about countries with the best living standards, I'll look it up : ) Or regions with the best standard or sth like that : )
Well then let's keep to France and Belgium for example. In Belgium I finished school at 18, well University now but hey ... Anyway, I know 4 languages standard, everyone in Belgium who graduated last 15 years or so knows 4 languages, all others do 3 ... I don't know how things go in Germany but oh well, there's always an exception ... I had an article about countries with the best living standards, I'll look it up : ) Or regions with the best standard or sth like that : )