If you thought the iMac looked like Luxor Jr. (the Pixar Lamp)

Please. I didn't call you a disease. (Although I don't know what you refer to as 'we'.) I only said terrorism is more like a symptom of a disease than the disease itself. And that I believe someone (and most likely the UNO) should take care of the disease instead of the symptoms.
 
You gotta love someone who asks for more, don't you? :D Lets dig in while it is hot!

Order not with standing...

insufferable (but lovable) flyke
The problem I have with 'the American people' - and by this I mean what I'm getting by talking to the Americans I know, I'm well aware that not everybody thinks the same - is that they tend to think they're always right.

Gosh, by that description, one would believe that you were talking about yourself more than others. You have as much of an inflammatory signature as Tormente's, yet you decide to start something about it in a thread that has nothing to do with the topic. And you frame your apology as yet another bigoted stab at Americans (lets hope you are not representative of your country, or the world is in real trouble).

and yet more
That someone must do something about the really *big* problem that terrorism is to all of us human beings (not just the 'freedom countries' Bush is talking about) is exactly what I think. But the 'who' is important here. And even more important - to me - is the 'how'.

The who and how is the sad part of your misguided notion. I would love to see Europe and/or the UN pull their own weight for once. It would have been nice to see it during the Balkans when that flared up (before it got terribly out of control), but it looked like your governments didn't want to get their collectives hands dirty (though they had no problem constantly asking the US to intervene). The reality of the matter is that the UN is your collective second try with training wheels (the first being the League of Nations which we left you guys to work out, or not work out as the case maybe). I truly hope that someday (soon) the UN is going to actually become a real force for good (I was hoping that it would be by now with the end of the Cold War).

and yet again
Terrorism is a symptom of a disease.

Yes, you are right there, but something tells me you have no real clue about what that disease actually is. It is (in my opinion) the use of hate to deal with hopelessness. There is, and could be, nothing that the UN, US, or any other western nation could have done to fix the problems of the countries of the world that let religion govern and let (corrupt) leaders rule. Living on the same planet we socialize, but we can not (and should not) interfere until we or our allies are put in harms way. That hatred that they feel is not going away by us turning the other cheek. They believe what they want (much like you) because it is what works to feed the hunger of that hatred. The power of false accusations (and yes it works for both sides in this, as in the case of the pilot in the UK) is that once made they require little or no proof by irrational people (again much like yourself, bigotry is an irrational response to others).

Lets look at one statement that has been made and is to date unfounded: "The Jews are torturing Palestinians." That has become a rallying cry for many, but from the time the peace process broke down, there was no evidence that anything other that bombing-then-counter attack has happen there (as if anything else would really be needed). Another example: "There were no Saudis among the terrorist of September 11th." That has been shown to be a false statement, but people still repeat it today because it adds support for their position.

I would put it that your disease is actually a symptom of the very real human condition of hatred as a way of dealing with a poor quality of live (it does provide quite allot of energy), and it always needs a focus (and the focus need not have done anything other than having better conditions).

Let me top this off with an illustration of the mentality of hatred.

A poor man is approached by a Genie who offers the man one wish. He can have anything that he wants on one condition, his neighbor gets twice what ever he wishes for. The man thinks about it for a moment and then makes his wish... he wishes to have one of his eyes put out.

Hatred is irrational, and should not be taken as something that can be fix with only the spirit of giving.
 
I'm getting the feeling that this is going to stay off topic, so maybe twyg can move this to the more suitable Non-Tech section for us.

Thanks

:D
 
Okay, but what our people going to think if a future one comes with a slot-loading DVD?


:confused:


This is new territory I think... gender assignment to computers based on media drive options.
 
Hmm... The iBook was 'the iMac to go', maybe that would be 'now available as a female'? I guess an ad like that would walk on a very thin line, but Apple might think different(ly).
 
Originally posted by RacerX
The who and how is the sad part of your misguided notion. I would love to see Europe and/or the UN pull their own weight for once. It would have been nice to see it during the Balkans when that flared up (before it got terribly out of control), but it looked like your governments didn't want to get their collectives hands dirty (though they had no problem constantly asking the US to intervene).

First of all, I'd like to thank you for a very inspiring and - in my eyes - intelligent answer. I feel the same to the above quoted text. I'm not considered to be a very 'Swiss' person, mostly because I want Switzerland to be part of the European Union (which it is not) and because I want Switzerland to be a part of the UNO (which it is not). Switzerland (and many Swiss people) believe we'd lose our state of neutrality if we joined the organisations. I believe our country has brought up some very good diplomats (although I'm clearly not one of them) that can help in conflicts *because* we're seen as neutral whether we join those organisations or not. But I find it terrible that we're not part of those. (But we're not talking about that right now.)

(Terrorism being a symptom rather than the disease itself:) Yes, you are right there, but something tells me you have no real clue about what that disease actually is. It is (in my opinion) the use of hate to deal with hopelessness. There is, and could be, nothing that the UN, US, or any other western nation could have done to fix the problems of the countries of the world that let religion govern and let (corrupt) leaders rule. (...) but we can not (and should not) interfere until we or our allies are put in harms way.

The quoted text shows where we seem to differ: I think you're right in that 'the use of hate to deal with hopelessness' is one part of the disease. It'd be too simple to just put the finger on that and say 'that's it!' for me. I guess we're both the same opinion that the hate that terrorists are feeling (not only against Americans, but everywhere where terrorists are, we have a very ugly case in Europe (although the English beg to differ here) with Ireland and another one in Corsica.

In my opinion another thing is also very much causing the disease: Interference. I know that the USA does a lot to prevent wars. Diplomacy is a strength of the US. But the image that the world - and even more so many Middle Eastern peoples - have of the USA is that of an 'Avenging Angel' with a flaming sword with the words 'freedom' and 'death' on its blade. This image may be as misunderstood as can be, but it's existing and - so I believe - one of the reasons why the Taliban (among many others) feel very much the same way about the USA as the USA do feel about the Taliban right now. Both are calling the other one 'the devil'. (Oh my God, Saddam Hussein has a *very* unfortunate name, I think.) And I believe neither is right. Like the band Extreme once said: "There's three sides to every story. Yours, mine & the truth." While the truth may not be somewhere in the middle, it is NEVER on one side.

And I got very much sick about many European countries that officially expressed they would stand behind the USA whatever they would decide appropriate. My first thought when I saw the pictures of the Towers falling was about the terrible feelings the people inside those towers must have had. I could relate. I also can perfectly understand how deep the sorrow must be to lose relatives or colleagues or friends like that. Much more than I can feel with Americans who have *not* lost relatives but are as much filled with hatred as Taliban terrorists (or so it seems to me).

We don't live in a perfect world, but hate causes hate causes hate. And in my opinion going to war against terrorism can only be wrong in respect to that.

And I'm going to change my signature to something that really reflects my feelings. The one you referred to I added because I got so mad about the other one.
 
by fryke
The quoted text shows where we seem to differ: I think you're right in that 'the use of hate to deal with hopelessness' is one part of the disease. It'd be too simple to just put the finger on that and say 'that's it!' for me.

and

I also can perfectly understand how deep the sorrow must be to lose relatives or colleagues or friends like that. Much more than I can feel with Americans who have *not* lost relatives but are as much filled with hatred as Taliban terrorists (or so it seems to me).

We don't live in a perfect world, but hate causes hate causes hate. And in my opinion going to war against terrorism can only be wrong in respect to that.

I think that you may have missed the true nature of hatred, because it is never as simple as "hate causes hate causes hate". Hatred must be fostered and grown for it to have any power at all. Momentary anger and dislike by people who are generally happy with their world is not a futile growing environment for hatred. The anger in the US is subsiding rather quickly and that is the primary evidence of your mistaken assumption.

Lets look at what it really takes to make the perfect environment for social hatred. Three elements must be in play:

(1) Adverse living conditions (to maintain unhappiness and hopelessness),
(2) A recipient of the collective hatred,
(3) A corrupt leadership to utilizes the energy of that hatred and to maintain the first two elements.

Fascism is this taken to an art form. And I would point to a perfect example in... (not Germany of WW II)... the movie Starship Troopers. This movie illustrates how easy a fascist state can be brought about, and how many people of today would be completely oblivious to it (as shown by the fact that many people whom I had asked questions of after they had seen the movie seemed to find nothing wrong with the World Government of the film).

You may think I'm being argumentative here, but actually I'm really trying to make sure that you see the problem for what it actually is (something which I personally don't believe that many of our collective western governments truly have a handle on themselves). We truly do see the world through the eyes of our own experiences, which is why a study of history is so important. It can help us frame situations into models of situations that have been played out before (hence the phrase: those who do not learn from history are doom to repeat it).

I can tell you the the leaders of these disenfranchised people are not going to just let us try and help, or clear our name, or do anything to weaken their hold. And I would point out that these leaders are not only at the very top of the social ladder, this type of control is utilized all the way down to the tribal and sect levels. Even if the larger government tries to change, the smaller structures of power are going to fight to keep the status quo.

A non-emotional equivalent would be our need for oil as an energy source. So much is dependent on oil (people who make money from it that is) that even when governments (that are not run by oil men) try to switch to alternatives that would work, others quickly rise up against any changes. If we can't get around the oil problem in the western world, how can we believe we can get any of these states that run on hatred to switch to something else. (I know that sounded like a stretch, but if you think about it, you'll see how the two problems actually have similar structures)

And I'm going to change my signature to something that really reflects my feelings. The one you referred to I added because I got so mad about the other one.

I like your new one, very cool! :D
 
a few points :p

1) Swizzerland is not as neutral as you think. During WWII, according to my history classes, hitler TOLD the swiss to shut their lights off cause the allies saw teh lights in swizzerland and could navigate and estimate targets in germany. The swiss complied. IF you were soooo neutral, you would have done whatever the heck you pleased! There are more examples for which I need to review my texts for.

2) Starship troopers, I loved that movie, seen it many times, have it on DVD. Goverment, in quite frank terms, is a biatch. All governments and politicians are biatches and political whores, only a few good people come by. I can go into a loooooong talk about goverment but I wont. I would hate a world government for the simple reason that larger organizations take a long time to maintain. I would be better to keep smaller independent departments which talk to one another to resolve issues, and get together for projects ( a little CS metaphor :p)


3) It seems like the iMac is mocking us and giving us teh tongue :p lol


Admiral
 
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