I'm a pirate, but I don't want to be

I'm not into DTP professionally, so I'll ask - what viable alternatives to PhotoShop exist for Mac or PC? What competition does Photoshop have? Is lack of competition the reason for the price, or is it just that complicated a product?

That said, PS is one of those products that I think is fairly appropriately priced. If you actually have a NEED for PS7, it's probably a fairly essential tool for what you do, and $650 isn't that bad a price for something that is ESSENTIAL to your work.

Not that I've done research or anything, but from my experience most home users that pirate PS would be able to do EVERYTHING (or at least 99%) of what they need with, yes, PhotoShop Essentials, Photopaint, any one of the $50-$150 packages or (ack!) even iPhoto.
 
Oh, and if you're going to be studying anyway, then you can get student prices on your software. At student prices MS-Office is about 70% off its full price, and PhotoShop is about 30% off (when I bought them, anyway).

There are viable alternatives to both, such as OpenOffice and Gimp. They may or may not be up to your needs ... PhotoShop is after all an industry leader for a very good reason ... but I think The Gimp is a great image editor with a lot of power. I've used Sun StarOffice, which is a relative of OpenOffice (in much the same way that Apple Safari is related to Konqueror) and it does work.
 
Originally posted by voice-
Seriously, have you guys seen the price on those things?
Photoshop ($600), I can maybe understand, after all this is pro picture-editing software, and the everyday man can use Photoshop Elements instead, for a much lower prize.
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You can always do what i did i bought photoshop 4 for $50 (got it from a coworker) and then bought the upgrade. it was a lot cheaper then buying it brand new.

now as for office.... i agree it is way overpriced. so much so i am still using office 98 on one of my older macs.
 
Originally posted by Randman
Well, I respectfully disagree. It seems to me that he (assuming Voice is a he and not a she) was trying to make a justification for using pirated software on the account of its price.
To me that sounds hardly like a reformed person. Granted, I may have been harsh, and I apologize if anyone's feelings were hurt, for that was not the intention.
However, I still stand by my view that if you can't afford something, it doesn't allow you permission to steal it.
For a long time, I wanted a copy of Office, but I thought I could use the money better elsewhere, so I did. Then when I felt I could afford it and needed it, I purchased Office. I didn't take a pirated version, I even turned down copies of it. Why? Because I wouldn't want some of the design work I've ever done pirated without due compensation.
That's great if Voice is trying to turn over two new leafs (piracy and Windows). All the best, and he should be happy he's getting a computer for $1,100. Especially when his sig reads:

AMD Athlon XP 1800+ 1,53 Ghz, 768Mb, GeForce 4 MX 440, 19" CRT, 20Gb, 120 Gb, DVD-ROM, Windows XP Pro, Windows 98 SE
PowerMac G4 Quicksilver 733Mhz, 768Mb, GeForce 2 MX, 19" CRT, 40Gb, CD-RW, OSX 10.2.1, OS9 9.2.1
iMac G4 800Mhz, 768Mb, GeForce 2 MX, 15" LCD, 60Gb, SuperDrive, OSX 10.2, OS9 9.2.2
iMac G3 400Mhz, 384Mb, ATI Rage 128, external 17" CRT, 40Gb, DVD-ROM, OSX 10.2, OS9 9.2.2
iPod, 5Gb, v1.1

That's one heck of a lot more than most people have. it's more than I have and I have a decent job. Censure me if you wish, but if someone says they have all this, are getting another computer for $1,100 and need prices to drop to further embolden them to forego piracy, I have to shake my head.
If I had all that, I'd sell one and buy Office and/or PhotoShop if I needed it.
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The following not a direct reply to you Randman but just some thoughts because Voice replied regarding his/her sig...

Let's just say that someone MUST have the above equipment and MUST have original software installed... Isn't specifically there that the standalone problem of expensive -anyways- software multiplied?

Even when one has ONLY(!?) 2 computers in his/her house why he must pay double the price for a software that he/she MUST have on both computers anyways? EVEN if he/she CAN afford it?

As things are in software industry, in order to be legit, one has to buy all OSes, apps, games, whatever x 2 which is plain stupid to say the least :mad: Imagine if we all have to buy audio CDs, DVDs, books, everything x 2 just because we are more than 1-2 person(s) under one house or company! :eek:

I think that Apple's solution for OS X of a family 5-pack for $200 is one DAMN fine solution... Still, and if I'm not mistaken on this, even Apple does that only for OS X :mad:

To close this, for now, I believe that the real pirates are those big software houses, although not all of them, and just like RIAA, they want us to believe that we are the pirates :p :rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by voice-
...It still dazzles me that the software I'd put on a computer would cost more than the computer itself...
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Yeah, but I have software that I still use that I bought 6 years and 3 computers ago.

It is not necessary to get new software every time you buy a new machine... And if you do you only need to pay Upgrade prices.

Over time the cost of software will not seem as high as it does for you now. Staying legal is much less expensive than getting legal in the first place.

Someone made a comment about getting a loan for a computer. That's exatly what I did for my old PowerMac 7200... And I made sure that loan included several hundred $ extra to buy software. (That was 1993-4, so sofware was cheaper then.)

Getting & staying legal is like being a recovering alchoholic... It is very difficult. You can't simply buy everything today and then say you are "cured". Every time you acquie new stuff you need to remember to buy it. When you get new hardware you need to remember to transfer it legally. You need to keep a good filing system with all of your license key's etc. I have no doubt that Apple could embellish KeyChain to also store software licence keys. That would help a LOT!
 
Hmm, just a few thoughts - although in an ethical sense it might be just as wrong to pirate software or steal, say, a camera, I don't see how pirating software for non-professional purposes hurts the company making the software, in a situation where the person really wouldn't be able to afford it otherwise. In fact, it might actually benefit the company, at least in the case of large companies such as Macromedia, Microsoft, Adobe etc. - in many cases using a pirated copy might be the only way to learn to use a specific app, but it might contribute towards the student buying the software later having already become familiar with it.
And the fact that software is easy to copy has in my view certainly helped Microsoft gain monopoly status with it's Office suite... faced with the option to either buy a cheap app which views .doc-files nearly right or pirating the whole Office suite, which you know will open every Office file perfectly, isn't the latter option rather tempting? And although pirating Office won't bring Microsoft any money directly, it makes it just that little bit more difficult for alternatives to survive. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this is good, I'm just pointing out that in this case pirating isn't necessarily strictly harmful to the software company.
 
I thought it might be good to point out that if you're considering buing student priced software, the licence is usually limited to "educational" use, ie. if you use it to make money it is no more legal than using a pirated copy.
 
Make money with it? You mean like, if I get an educational version of Word and write an essay and sell this, it's illegal, but if I write the same essay in TextEdit it's legal?
Donæt worry, Office has brought me no money this far and I suspect it never will, even if I get a cheap educational version...
 
Originally posted by celeborn
Hmm, just a few thoughts - although in an ethical sense it might be just as wrong to pirate software or steal, say, a camera, I don't see how pirating software for non-professional purposes hurts the company making the software, in a situation where the person really wouldn't be able to afford it otherwise. In fact, it might actually benefit the company, at least in the case of large companies such as Macromedia, Microsoft, Adobe etc. - in many cases using a pirated copy might be the only way to learn to use a specific app, but it might contribute towards the student buying the software later having already become familiar with it.
And the fact that software is easy to copy has in my view certainly helped Microsoft gain monopoly status with it's Office suite... faced with the option to either buy a cheap app which views .doc-files nearly right or pirating the whole Office suite, which you know will open every Office file perfectly, isn't the latter option rather tempting? And although pirating Office won't bring Microsoft any money directly, it makes it just that little bit more difficult for alternatives to survive. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this is good, I'm just pointing out that in this case pirating isn't necessarily strictly harmful to the software company.
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Wow that's a whole new way of viewing things. Good! :)::love::
 
Originally posted by celeborn
Hmm, just a few thoughts - although in an ethical sense it might be just as wrong to pirate software or steal, say, a camera, I don't see how pirating software for non-professional purposes hurts the company making the software, in a situation where the person really wouldn't be able to afford it otherwise. In fact, it might actually benefit the company, (SNIP)
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Are you serious?

This is simply another rationalization to justify stealing intellectual property. :mad:

One of the many fallacies in this argument is the phrase "in a situation where the person really wouldn't be able to afford it otherwise." If you can't see the flaw in that logic, well...

I would counter that it hurts the company to pirate software "for non-professional purposes" because the alternative is to legally purchase the software. Since you are not buying it, you are hurting the company.

It just floors me how people attempt to draw distinctions between software and hardware, as if stealing software is really OK, as opposed to stealing hardware. And then to hear people go so far as to say that pirating software actually helps the software company... puh-leeze. :rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by SkyNite
This is simply another rationalization to justify stealing intellectual property. :mad:
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Well, I see your point, but I am not attempting to justify piracy. I simply wanted to bring out a different view.


I would counter that it hurts the company to pirate software "for non-professional purposes" because the alternative is to legally purchase the software. Since you are not buying it, you are hurting the company.
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I disagree. In many cases, buing the software is simply not an alternative, because a student simply would never have the money. Look, no one with a tight budget is going to buy a $600 app just to "play around", but many will jump at the chance to use a copy. This could benefit the company in the long run because it means there are a lot people out there who already know how to use their software.


as if stealing software is really OK, as opposed to stealing hardware. And then to hear people go so far as to say that pirating software actually helps the software company... puh-leeze. :rolleyes:
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I'm not saying stealing software is OK, but I'm suprised you claim there is no difference - of course there is a difference! A pirated copy of an app does not result in immediate financial or material loss to the manufacturer, whereas if you steal a camera the manufacturer has to make another camera to replace it. And as I have attempted to point out, in many cases using pirated software does not result in any real loss to the manufacturer.
 
Voice, you should dump all Microsoft products. Switch to Linux. Use free software. Put Open Office on your Linux boxes and Open Office on your Macs. Then you can share documents all you want.

Why help Microsoft at all?
 
Originally posted by celeborn
Well, I see your point, but I am not attempting to justify piracy. I simply wanted to bring out a different view.
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I am glad to hear that you are not attempting to justify piracy.:cool:
I disagree. In many cases, buing the software is simply not an alternative, because a student simply would never have the money. Look, no one with a tight budget is going to buy a $600 app just to "play around", but many will jump at the chance to use a copy. This could benefit the company in the long run because it means there are a lot people out there who already know how to use their software.
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It also means that there are "a lot of people out there" who are pirating their software, and are quite likely to continue doing so. Few software pirates express a desire to 'go straight,' especially when they feel that their software piracy in some way helps the software company by creating a larger pool of people conversant in their software.
I'm not saying stealing software is OK, but I'm suprised you claim there is no difference - of course there is a difference! A pirated copy of an app does not result in immediate financial or material loss to the manufacturer, whereas if you steal a camera the manufacturer has to make another camera to replace it.
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This only applies to a camera stolen from the manufacturer. If someone steals your digital camera, then you'll probably go out any buy another one. Do you now wish to argue that stealing cameras is a good thing, because it creates more sales for the camera companies?

And morally and legally there is no difference between software stealing and hardware stealing. Both are stealing, and both are illegal. Both hurt people.
And as I have attempted to point out, in many cases using pirated software does not result in any real loss to the manufacturer.
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And I still maintain that pirating software does result in a real loss to the publisher. As long as people justify pirating software using your (and other) arguments, then more people will think it's OK, maybe even 'helpful,' to pirate software. That, my friend, most definitely affects a publisher's bottom line.

I once knew of an organization with lots of pirated copies of QuarkXPress. The managers there expressed similar pro-piracy arguments, such as "Hey, we're getting more people trained in QuarkXPress -- it's good for the company in the long run."

While Quark seems to hate its customers, I still maintain that software piracy -- any software piracy -- is bad.

And while I find your alternative point of view interesting, I believe that many people use similar viewpoints to justify their stealing of software.
 
Originally posted by jocknerd
Voice, you should dump all Microsoft products. Switch to Linux.
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No. If I can, I'll use OS X. Have tried Linux many a time, never seen a version I coulld install/use. They haven't dumbed it down enough for me yet...
Originally posted by jocknerd
Put Open Office on your Linux boxes and Open Office on your Macs. Then you can share documents all you want.

Why help Microsoft at all?
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OpenOffice? Sure, I like OpenOffice. But I need to be 100% sure that when someone sends me a .doc file (which some guys eventually WILL do) I can see the contents...
 
Celeborn is correct in that creating a larger user-base has the potential to create future sales. Many bands that are just starting out give their CDs away for free to try to get their music heard. In a way, installing a pirated copy of software is like that.

Sadly, many people will not follow this course to its optimal conclusion. Instead of simply learning the software, loving it, and then buying it they will continue to steal it.

Therefore, I understand the vehemant distaste for people justifying piracy. I agree that it's a horrible thing overall, but in all honesty we have yet to see the full effects of students who entered the professional world after pirating in college.
 
Originally posted by Azzgunther
Sadly, many people will not follow this course to its optimal conclusion. Instead of simply learning the software, loving it, and then buying it they will continue to steal it.
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You're probably right there.
 
And morally and legally there is no difference between software stealing and hardware stealing. Both are stealing, and both are illegal. Both hurt people.
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I disagree. The damage done by stealing software can only be expressed in lost sales. If people pirate instead of buying, then this results in a decrease in sales/profit. If I have no intention / possibility whatsoever to buy the software, my pirated copy does not change the potential sales volume and profit by a single iota. Hence no damage is done.
It is still illegal though.

However, in general, there are things that are legal yet morally reprehensible and things that are morally good, yet illegal ... don't confuse the two.
 
Originally posted by Cat
However, in general, there are things that are legal yet morally reprehensible and things that are morally good, yet illegal ... don't confuse the two.
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I am not lumping everything that is immoral with all that is illegal. I am simply stating that, in this instance, pirating software is both immoral and illegal. Perhaps the "immoral" part is IMHO, but I think that pirating software instead of buying it is depriving at least some hard-working people of their just recompense, which I view as immoral.

Originally posted by Cat
If I have no intention / possibility whatsoever to buy the software, my pirated copy does not change the potential sales volume and profit by a single iota. Hence no damage is done.
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I don't buy the argument that it's "impossible" for some people to buy a given piece of software. I think most people can make the resources available for whatever is important to them.

And I strongly disagree with your statement "Hence no damage is done." You are assuming that the person has no choice but to pirate or not buy the software. They have a third choice: saving up and purchasing the software. If they choose to pirate rather than purchase, then that is a lost sale, and damage is truly done.
 
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