Interface philosophy: less is *not* more, anymore. Aqua lacks Windows features!.

Piet Keizer

Registered
Jobs is still living 20 years ago. His philosophy: keep the interface simple, so no-one gets lost. Once, he used the desktop metaphor, so people understood what they were doing. That was great, then.

But these days, everyone has used a computer once or more. Usually Windows, sometimes Unix or Mac OS.

So now, instead of the desktop metaphor, Apple should use Windows, Unix and Mac OS metaphors.

Jobs should make sure that there are as many common Windows, Mac OS and Unix features in Aqua as possible, so anyone can use it.

At this moment, especially the Windows metaphor is lacking badly. The absense of a Start button will puzzle many first-time users.
 

AdmiralAK

Simply Daemonic
Man you are one funny son of a gun haaa haaa haaaa :p :p :p :p :p
Let me take a moment to mock you...
A start menu ha haa haa haaa what age are you living in ???? :p :p :p

** mocks some more and then becomes serious **

ok now listen.
The Desktop metaphor... it's dead, not many people use it any more with Aqua.
Start menu... pardon me while I laugh out loud once more. All the applications are
stored under the "go to" menu or you can go ther eimmediatelly with command-4.
The world doesn't need a windows 9x/ME/2000 UI clone, the world needs something new
that works for them!

OS X has a lot of things that weren't in the original (System 1.0) conception of the MacOS,
and the MacOS has evolved and OS X shows just that.

One final thing,
You impy that we insult people's intelligence by keeping these archaic metaphors around since
most people have used a computer at least once, YET you say that people will get confused
if there isnt a start menu.... you are the one that insults ones intelligence!

Admiral
PS: The dock is everything a novice first time user needs once he turns on his OS X mac.
 

Piet Keizer

Registered
Having read Admiral's post, I think I didn't make myself clear.

All I want to say is that Apple needs to give people something they *expect*, unless it's something really bad.

Twenty years ago, it was a desktop. Now, it's Windows.

Okay, no-one is using the desktop metaphor anymore. That's true. But it's not true that I imply that Apple is insulting someones intelligence. To the contrary, I think Apple should do more to insult the intelligence of people like AdmiralAK.

AdmiralAK likes to boast about his own hipness and knowledge of many OSes, but that shows that he's not the kind of customer Apple should listen to.

The kind of customer Apple should listen to, is the average developer or retailer, who doesn't want to waste his time investing in OSes he considers risky.

I know such a person, and guess what? She uses Windows and she found OS X unusable and needlessly different from the OS she and most people are used to. She wanted a Startmenu and a Finder that worked a bit like Explorer and an easy way to find the Settings of a system she recognised.

AdmiralAK may think she's stupid, but she's not stupid. She's only someone who hates to think she wastes her time.

So Aqua should be more like Windows.

Piet

 

AdmiralAK

Simply Daemonic
Perhaps you are right,
but I adamantly disagree. How do you know that I am NOT a develloper ?
Tell me ?
I HAD to learn a majorority of the OSs that I have in my signature due to my job.
I have worked at several places and dealt with many platforms. I dont think that your friend
is stupid, she is just arrogant, and so are many users on the PC side. I, as a mac user, in many
places that I have worked probably the only person that could cope with many different platforms.
Other people, that were windoze users looked at the mac and hadnt the foggiest on how to use one!

Each OS comes with it's on UI, this is not the Renaissance my friends where people immitate,
this is the 21st century where people innovate in order to create something better.
Start menu ? Been there done that, Desktop, been there done that as well! It is a new age
You think that just because Windows has a start menu, and juse because the KDE and GNOME enviroments for linux have a start-menu-like thing that every OS should have one ??? no way!

I am sure that once OS X is released people will make ports of KDE, GNOME, and other window managers sof your PeeeCeee friends that like start menus.... Hell... you can have a star menu in OS 9 using "Go Mac" if you wish...

One final thing,
Having spent a lot of time in different operating enviroments I have seen the advantages of one over the other etc etc etc.... having diversity is good... if people are arrogant enought and dont want to use something that looks different of play with OS X for 2 minutes and say they dont like it jsut because it doesnt have a start menu.... well... what can I say ??? You people are hopeless.

And can you tell me WHY is windows the future ? The UI for windows has been around for almost 6 years now! it's time to move along.... or are you still iving in the windows 3.11 days ???

Admiral
 

webman2k

Registered
I know a bunch of people that have never used a computer. They're mostly in they're 30's, and didn't use one in school at that point, nor do they use one at their jobs. And they happen to be very intellegent people.

Also, I know a few people that wouldn't know what to do if they turned on a computer and didn't see the apple menu :)
 

AdmiralAK

Simply Daemonic
My father, and people his age that he hangs out with, dont know a damn thing about what to do with a computer once it is turned on :p

I taught my father the basics of windows... how to click to start menu...navigate to word pad...and start typing :p

I dont let my father use my G3 lol...aint I a bad son ??? :p
 

strobe

Puny Member
OS X is very very easy to understand. Hell even Floridian voters could understand OS X.

Think about this, there are more non-computer users than computer users. There is a huge untapped market and OS X is poised to take it. Don't screw up a simple base interface with crap like a Start menu, sheesh!

If you want to organize your apps and other stuff in something within easy reach download Drop Drawers. I have several on the right side of my primary monitor and have saved me LOADS of time. The latest version (1.5) is a lot easier to use. I auto-arrange items and drag them in from a 'Finder' file browser. I set the prefs to launching an alias only takes one click, now I just have to move my mouse right then click, can't get much better!

The Start menu on the other hand isn't even drag+drop aware. I can't drag files on apps in the Start Menu like I can in ACTION Menus or Drop Drawers. It's useless.

As for the Desktop...stop using it. I'm a LOT more productive after I made a downloads directory to use instead of the Desktop Folder. ACTION Menus in MacOS 9 also helps since I have access to my volumes in a menu. Most time wasted on a mac is rearranging windows to keep the desktop visible, how pointless! I only wish more apps would use the global 'download directory' preferences.
 

zpincus

Registered
Sorry, Piet, while your point is well-taken that OS X ought to be easy for anyone (newbie, seasoned windows user, etc) to use, I don't believe that aping metaphors from other OS's would make it so. That would lead to a confusing jumble. OS X on the other hand strikes me as pretty internally consistent -- like Mac OS's in general.
The great thing about consistency is that if you understand how one part works, you're likely to understand how a different part that you haven't seen before works. OS 9 still rules as far as this, but X is coming along. Surprisingly enough, Win2K does this pretty well, too, IMO.
But nobody likes mixed metaphors -- that's just plain confusing.

I also think that your selection of the "Start" menu as a talking point is telling. If anyone recals, when that first showed up, it was very confusing to new users. "Wait, I need to click on the start menu to shut my computer down?" But soon enough people learned its quirks. I think that Apple has gone / is going to great lengths to make sure OS X has as few quirks as posible, so the learning curve will be very short, "start" menu or no.

Zach

Plus, could you imagine the shame when MS starts suing Apple for copying interface elements? No way could Apple crib the "start" menu, even if they wanted.
 

cjcollins

Registered
Strobe has a good point about simplicity. I use tabbed folders,'DragThing' and 'Default Folder' in MacOS9 to accomplish some of what does. I have to try 'Drop Drawers' in X, but await DT and DF come to X. Maybe a cross btw. DD and DT?

It needs to be acknowledged that people do resist change, and that this resistence is not always bad. I also agree with others speaking highly of the Aqua interface. It has very few is any quirks, and suits its purpose: 'do things consistently, within reason. Stay out of the way, otherwise. Be reasonably adaptable.' That is what I wish.
 

cjcollins

Registered
Before anyone says anything: I know 'Drop Drawers' is more similar to 'Drag Thing' than to tabbed folders in Classic. I find tabbed folders far more convenient than opening a finder window.
 

strobe

Puny Member
Originally posted by cjcollins
Strobe has a good point about simplicity. I use tabbed folders,\'DragThing\' and \'Default Folder\' in MacOS9 to accomplish some of what does. I have to try \'Drop Drawers\' in X, but await DT and DF come to X. Maybe a cross btw. DD and DT?
I have used both and find Drop Drawers FAR superior! It\'s just easier to sort items, more flexible in how they are displayed, and supports more features.
Drag Thing takes up screen space while Drop Drawers does not, just move your cursor to the side and it will appear.


It needs to be acknowledged that people do resist change, and that this resistence is not always bad. I also agree with others speaking highly of the Aqua interface. It has very few is any quirks, and suits its purpose: \'do things consistently, within reason. Stay out of the way, otherwise. Be reasonably adaptable.\' That is what I wish.
My only gripe is Apple hasn\'t updated the UI guidelines since system 7. It needs to be updated and needs to be more comprehensive (like text editing behavior with modifier keys)!

If/when Cocoa uses the layo resource in the theme data we\'ll be able to put those title bar buttons in their proper location. Oh please oh please....
 

cjcollins

Registered
I tried Drop Drawers. It would not launch a single application when icons were placed in the drawers. NOT ONE! Triple-clicking would produce no results. I have also found it terribly INflexible and INconsistent in the way it arranges icons, versus same, plus buggy. This makes it far inferior to DragThing. But that is one program.

As for interface: If Cocoa can make applications as easy to use, and a trouble free as advertised, and programs run under it, I would be more than happy. I will believe it when I see it though.
 

strobe

Puny Member
Originally posted by cjcollins
I tried Drop Drawers. It would not launch a single application when icons were placed in the drawers. NOT ONE! Triple-clicking would produce no results. I have also found it terribly INflexible and INconsistent in the way it arranges icons, versus same, plus buggy. This makes it far inferior to DragThing. But that is one program.
I\'ve never had a problem with it. From where did you drag the files? You can\'t drag items from the Dock because the Dock doens\'t give enough information about dragged items, you shoud drag items from the Desktop.app

What version were you using? 1.5 is the latest.

As for sorting you need to RTFM. Drop Drawers is very flexible in how to arrange items and how to keep them sorted. Version 15 comes with templates if you don\'t want to configure your own, although I prefer making my own from scratch.
 

cjcollins

Registered
I got Drop Drawers from the developer. 1.5 for OS X; latest version. [If you are using the \'Classic\' version, you may be having more success.] I drug the applications from Finder to a drawer. I can double-click them in Finder, but cannot get them to launch from the Drawer.
 

strobe

Puny Member
Same version I\'m using, I have no such trouble. I know others who have equally pleasant experiences. Something is awry with your setup.
 

madra

Registered
why is everyone taking it for granted that the desktop metaphor is a \'bad thing\'? personally i always saw it as one of the strengths of the macOS.

the fact that most of the work people do on their macs, whether this be text or graphics based is a computer age development of a job that was originally done at a desktop suggest to me that this is the logical way to lay out the interface.

the only trouble with the desktop metaphor was tha.......

[suddenly gets bored in the middle of writing and decides to go down the pub instead]
 

BuyaMac

Registered
It should be like Windoze? Not.

You say your user won\\\'t know where to \\\"start\\\" without a start menu. You also say that your user is used to using Windoze. Well, gee, isn\\\'t that a coincidence?

Funny.....The whole Windoze idea basically came from the Mac.

Maybe you should rephrase your statement to be:

OS X should be more Mac-like?

I\\\'ve used both systems for years, and the Mac is so much easier to use than windoze, it\\\'s pathetic.
 
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