Israel's new tourism pitch...

Why is it that when anyone makes a comment critical of zionism or the govt. of Israel, they are immediately labeled an anti-semite. I despise what Berlusconi is doing to Italy but people don't run around calling me an anti catholic.

Rather than name-calling, serpico, why not contribute something constructive.
 
Why is it that when anyone makes a comment critical of zionism or the govt. of Israel, they are immediately labeled an anti-semite. I despise what Berlusconi is doing to Italy but people don't run around calling me an anti catholic.
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First of all, it's Mr. LugNut. :)

Second, let's clearly agree on a definition of zionism... From my source:

Zionism, the national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel, advocated, from its inception, tangible as well as spiritual aims. Jews of all persuasions, left and right, religious and secular, joined to form the Zionist movement and worked together toward these goals. Disagreements led to rifts, but ultimately, the common goal of a Jewish state in its ancient homeland was attained.

Agreed?

So, what's there to be critical of? Israel was created (with the blessing of most of Europe and the UN). It was attacked. In those attacks it won, it acquired land. That land is theirs now.

When zionism is used as a blanket term to insinuate that the Jews are after more land, or are trying to remove the palestinians because they aren't jewish, it reeks of anti-semitism.

If the Israeli's wanted to solve this problem they could do it inside of a week. All they would have to do is go in to the Palestinian areas, round up all the Palestinian refugees, and deport them. Now, if the Israeli's are as evil as everyone says, why haven't they done this? Simple. Because they remember history.

They do their best to live with a population that would deny their very existence if possible. The palestinians who chose to integrate in to Israeli population live as most Israelis do. The ones who don't live like refugees, refusing to accept the current situation for what it is.
 
Hello,

I had heard/read that Anti-semitism was pretty rampant in France, but wow - now I see it up close...

Wow ! So much food for thought in that post ! I am amazed. So far, I'm an anti-zionist, and if your head assimilates zionism and Judaism, then there's helluva history homework to catch up.

Please, avoid that, I'm bored of being called antisemitic, pro-Saddam, usw. What if I said the Palestinian human bombs are a rational phenomenon ? Damn ! He's a fanatic, ban him from this place and send the cops !

If your history books qualify the French as antisemitic, please look the publishing date and press Refresh button.

That's so easy to call people antisemitic when they say anything wrong about Jewish populations. Even the British government was accused of anti-semitism after the war, while Israel owes them almost everything as far as state creation is concerned !

Mr Lugnut, your dictionary definition is what zionism is in books. I thought this conversation was about historical facts, and when turning back to history, it appears zionism was more Ben Gourion invading substantial parts of the Neguev Desert and provoking the first Palestinian civilian exodus (600,000 refugees in 1948, according to the UNHCR) than simply creating what was to be a homeland for a persecuted population who was enduring its 14th or such diaspora.

---

Certains historians find certain periods of history nothing intelligible, and call them 'dark ages'; but such phrases tell us nothing about the ages themselves, though they tell us a great deal about the persons who use them.

R.G. Collingwood, "The Idea of History", 1946.
 
When zionism is used as a blanket term to insinuate that the Jews are after more land, or are trying to remove the palestinians because they aren't jewish, it reeks of anti-semitism.
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What would you call it? Invasion? State terrorism? Ethnical cleansing? Israeli colonists have been known to advocate a general right to everything wihtin sight through appeal to zionistic ideals. Other totalitarian groups had ideals too. I would never consider hating someone for being jewish, but I definitely disagree with the (consequences of the) ideology of zionism. Why are you so anti-gallic? ;)
 
What would you call it? Invasion? State terrorism? Ethnical cleansing? Israeli colonists have been known to advocate a general right to everything wihtin sight through appeal to zionistic ideals. Other totalitarian groups had ideals too.
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I would call it the spoils of war. As I stated - Israel was attacked in '67, and fought Egypt, Syria and Jordan in the 6 day war. They lost, Israel won. The land the palestinians occupy belongs to Israel now. The palestinian people should either relocate to within the new borders of their country of origin, or assimiliate in to the Israeli society.

To accuse Israel of ethnic cleansing is absurd. If Israel wanted to be rid the Palestinians, then there would truly be ethnic cleansing. In the face of all they are subjected to, I believe Israel conducts itself with a restraint that very few countries could exert.

The entire concept of Israel giving this land back to the palestinians is absurd. When in history has a country fought a war, won it, and then been expected to give the land acquired back?

If your history books qualify the French as antisemitic, please look the publishing date and press Refresh button.
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Well, several reports have anti-semitism at it's worst levels since WWII. Mostly in France, where the Arab population has increased.

Look, if Israel was truly interested in adhering to the zionist principle as laid out here, why hasn't Israel attempted to conquer Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Iraq and Iran? We've seen that when faced with 3 attackers in 1967, Israel easily dispatched them, inflicting mass casualties and sustaining very little on their side. If Zionism was truly the concern it's put forth to be, then Israel should have expanded to include the entire middle east by now. It hasn't, and zionism is nothing more than a bunk term used by those who wish the jews would pack their bags and move their country to the artic tundra.
 
Originally posted by serpicolugnut
The entire concept of Israel giving this land back to the palestinians is absurd. When in history has a country fought a war, won it, and then been expected to give the land acquired back?
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Well, remember ? Rwanda 1998 / Somalia 1993 ? Chechnya 2001 ? Nepal 2000 ? Nigeria / Biafra 1983 ?

What I 'like' with your definition is that the invasion of Koweit (1990) looks legal if you apply it. After all, Iraq fought a war, won it, so it shouldn't been expected to give the land acquired back. :rolleyes:

Thanks for bringing back the war to the definition Clausewitz gave (1832-1834): politics continued by other means.

May I remind you that every war fought outside chapter VII of the UN Charter is illegal by definition (article 2 paragraph 4 of this same Charter).

Plus, check your sources. The article you quote says the following thing:

French Jewish leaders are calling this "the beginning of a new Kristallnacht".
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This was said by the B'nai Brith and they are far from being the French Jewish leaders. B'nai Brith are a fanatical org. notorious for mugging people around when they 'trespass the Jewish memory' (ie. their name: B'nai Brith = Sonfs of the Jewish Memory). B'nai Brith also threw chairs on Chomsky last time he came in France (some time ago).

On top of that, this article basically says France is the scenery of a new civil war between the Maghrebine immigration and between the Jewish population. Anyone living in France will tell you this is pure fantasy. Antisemtism does exist in a latent form; it is often used by poorer categories, just as every form of racism is often instrumentalized by those who need a scapegoat for their own poverty.

In brief, it sounds like everyone reads Edouard Drumont in France and likes it. Well, no. We don't have antisemitic libraries like they have in Japan :rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by serpicolugnut
Look, if Israel was truly interested in adhering to the zionist principle as laid out here, why hasn't Israel attempted to conquer Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Iraq and Iran?
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- Tsahal would not be numerous enough, hence it would have to organize conscription, hence the war would costs more civilians' life than bearable by Israel.

- War is illegal and Israel is a UN member.
 
I believe Israel conducts itself with a restraint that very few countries could exert
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It's probably my fault that I am not able to see the subtle restraint the Isreali bulldozers are exerting while tearing down refugee camps. Israeli snipers are really mercyful killers since they save the poor palestinians from a life of hardship and uncertainty. And then those bad bad british diplomats, tsk, tsk, trespassing on Isreali territory, of course they had to shoot at them ... By the way, a very nice and restrained wall they are building IN palestinian territory... Is it to keep them out or keep them in? A very tactful solution ...
 
Originally posted by serpicolugnut
The entire concept of Israel giving this land back to the palestinians is absurd.
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Yes, it certainly is, and if the left had it's way, we would give America back to it's original owners, the Indians. Then they would replace the lead in bullets with soft rubber so wars would be kinder and gentler.



Originally posted by serpicolugnut
... zionism is nothing more than a bunk term used by those who wish the jews would pack their bags and move their country to the artic tundra.
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Amen brother, aint that the truth. The only time people ever use that term is when they want to cast aspursions on the Jewish people. God if their is any sympathy in this world, you'd think some could go to the Jews, the most persecuted people in history, just trying to be left alone and protect their miniscule little country.
 
Originally posted by Cat
Having been victims once doesn't entitle you to commit the same atrocities you suffered.
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That's a real balanced statement. That you equate a rocket attack on a Hamas leaders car, or the bulldozing of a few dozen houses in self defense, or the accidental shooting of a child during a Palestinian stone-throwing riot, or EVEN that genocidal attack on a Palestinian village(I forget the name) by Israel's "Proxy" Christian extremist army, to the state-run systematic extermination in gas chamers of nearly the entire jewish race to the tune of 6 million+ dead, is truly disgusting and sad.
 
Don't confuse the gravity of ones actions with the results. Murder is murder, wether of one or one thousend. Do you justify Israels actions by pointing at who did worse than that?
 
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