Killing OS X

JohnnyLundy

Registered
Tried this the other day:

Launch the OS 9 Finder by double-clicking it (it will launch Classic, but that's OK)

Go to the Terminal and find the Process ID for the Desktop (of OS X)

Kill it.

Now you have your OS 9 Finder with pop-up folders, tabbed folders, all the apps (including the OS X ones!) in the App menu which can still be torn off.

Couldn't kill the Dock, though, as much as I wanted to. It somehow resurrects itself even if you kill it from the UNIX shell. Maybe reducing it to minimum, and taking all the contents out of it would work.

Since Desktop.app is just an app, you can cheerfully kill it and the other OS X apps will run just fine.

>>Johnny
 

zpincus

Registered
Careful with this though... I've had stability problems with this trick. Big, filesystem-eating ones.

I also was never able to convince carbon apps to launch as OS X native (and not in classic) with this trick, and opening .app bundle-type apps was also impossible for me. If you know how to do these things, that would be helpful.

I have found that I like desktop.app and the dock a lot more now that I have stopped trying to fight them. I don't do things the old way -- I just have a few apps in the dock, and the rest that I routinely use are one click away in a docked folder. I removed the "classicmenu" and the drives on the desktop hack.
And all of a sudden, I realized that my new workflow was much better, and cleaner, and not at all slower than the old.

So, I challenge you to try for a while to work in the new paradigm that Apple has sketched out for us with PB. I think that once you stop trying to make it exactly like the old one, you will be much more able to appreciate the little things you can do with desktop.app and the dock that make OS X a really nice environment.
Of course this is just my opinion, and you are certainly entitled to your own.

Zach
 

matt69

Registered
I agree 100% if u try toget use to the new X features they will serve u well. The only bad thing is now I have to slowly migrate all my stuff to os x but that will come soon enough!
 

JohnnyLundy

Registered
Well, I've been using X since Developer Preview 1, and I still get completely lost in the filesystem, I don't know what that "goto:" box in the dialog is for, I don't understand why I can't get a simple path when I save a file instead of the dang "favorites" and "recent" stuff, the Dock covers the bottom of all my windows and can't be moved, the "desktop" is really buried 4 or 5 levels deep instead of being at the top, and there is no desktop button, "command-N" opens a new Finder window instead of a new folder, putting a folder in the Dock works but takes 3 or 4 clicks to use it instead of 2 as a pop-up with buttons does (1 if you are dragging to the popup) (Folder in the Dock: 1 to open it, two to launch your app, one to close the folder if you can find it - fortunately X launches so slowly you can probably close it before it gets obscured by the thing you just opened)

Does anyone know how to kill the Dock? It seems to have a Lazarus-like property somewhere.

>>Johnny
 

zpincus

Registered
This is what I was talking about when I said you have to give up on how previous OS's worked.
BSD's filesystem is complicated. Stop trying to understand it.
I know that this is hard for mac users, but the best thing
to do is concentrate on your personal corner of the filesystem
and organize that. (Your personal corner = home folder).
Then, the "goto" thing makes sense.
Ditto for the rest of the save dialog. Though I wholeheartedly
agree that it needs work. We also need a heirarchical dock
to solve the "pop-up" problem that you describe so well.

But I think that trying to kill the dock just makes things worse.
For good or bad, we've got these new tools.
They have strenghts and weaknesses, and I think that
even now, the strenghts outweigh the weaknesses. You just
have to give up on the old way. It was wierd for me to stop
using "command-N" to try to make a new folder, but know what?
I make new finder windows at twenty times the rate at which I make new folders,
so this, too makes sense.
Sure, it seems like relearning new key commands and a new UI
is a pain, but at least for me once and only once I gave
into Aqua and stopped fighting it
(which it sounds like
many people have not done) I was able to learn the new paradigm in remarkably
little time.

Zach
PS. sorry for the long post. Double sorry if the word wrap is messed up. I'm SSHing to
my X box and using lynx to post, because the connection there is faster, and
my modem here is so slow it hurts. Score one for having remote admin on X.
 

zpincus

Registered
Sorry if that came off a little harsh. Do try to
understand BSD's filesystem. But do it at your leisure,
because you shouldn't need to do anything with it. For when
you use your Mac for work, just ignore BSD and concentrate
on the home folder...
Having a little UNIX experience, it makes some sense to me, but I can totally see veteran Mac users getting befuddled and angry.
HAs anyone noticed how much better the fs layout gets from
each release to the next? I'd bet that by 1.0, the fs
is much more comprehensible, and there will be an option
to make it totally invisible to the user, so a user
can think that they have total control...
 

Ghoser777

Registered
Originally posted by JohnnyLundy
Does anyone know how to kill the Dock? It seems to have a Lazarus-like property somewhere.

>>Johnny
It's really stupid but it works: just move the Dock app out of the Core Services folder (I think; I can't check because my brother is playing TA right now on my OSX machine). ANywhere will do. Apple has some kind of script running that auto launches the dock... oh, but if it can't find the dock, then it doesn't launch anything. Same fix for all those anoying times Classix loads when you download a file - just move Classic out of the Applications folder, or in a subdirectory of the Applications folder.

HTH,
F-bacher

P.S. Oh it might be a bad idea to move the dock and not have ur harddisk show up on the desktop... if you don;t, it's essentially impossible to do anything on your machine short of logging out, logining as console, and then creating some sort of shortcut into your hardrive. Or you could even put the dock in the login control panel so it will boot on login... but that doesn't help if you accidentally force quit it. Maybe move it to the desktop?
 

JohnnyLundy

Registered
Originally posted by zpincus

BSD's filesystem is complicated. Stop trying to understand it.
I know that this is hard for mac users, but the best thing
to do is concentrate on your personal corner of the filesystem
and organize that. (Your personal corner = home folder).
Then, the "goto" thing makes sense.

Hi zpincus,

Yeah, but what exactly is one supposed to type into that box? And where is the OK button for it, to say "OK, goto this?" I'm flummoxed. Surely we are not going to be typing pathstrings into this -


It was wierd for me to stop
using "command-N" to try to make a new folder, but know what?
I make new finder windows at twenty times the rate at which I make new folders,
so this, too makes sense.


In the context of the Mac OS, "New Finder Window" makes no sense to me. Windows don't exist as separate entities in the Finder - they open to display things such as folders or documents. It's not at all clear what is going to appear when one opens a new finder window - what exactly is one opening - a blank window? another view of the same window already open? Having them all labeled "Finder" is also not helpful. I think once we get into having a "window" as a separate entity then we are as confused as Windows users, as this is their paradigm. This is also evident when one has a document open and minimizes the window and also has the original document (file) alias in the Dock. Now you have two identical icons in the dock, both referring to the same document, but one being its "window" and the other the actual document. Do we need this? Is it going to be intuitive to new users? I've been in CS since 1967 and it's not intuitive to me.

>>Johnny
 

AdmiralAK

Simply Daemonic
Starting a petition right away not to kill X (or aqua to be more specific) :p

** chants ** Save-os-x ! save-os-x


LOL :p


Admiral
-- A little humor for a serious world --
 

JohnnyLundy

Registered
Originally posted by Ghoser777
Originally posted by JohnnyLundy
Does anyone know how to kill the Dock? It seems to have a Lazarus-like property somewhere.

>>Johnny
It's really stupid but it works: just move the Dock app out of the Core Services folder (I think; I can't check because my brother is playing TA right now on my OSX machine). ANywhere will do. Apple has some kind of script running that auto launches the dock... oh, but if it can't find the dock, then it doesn't launch anything. Same fix for all those anoying times Classix loads when you download a file - just move Classic out of the Applications folder, or in a subdirectory of the Applications folder.

HTH,
F-bacher

Hmmm.. great stuff. I could either find the script that is wasting CPU cycles polling for the Dock and nuke or no-op the script, or change the Dock's permissions so it can't be executed, or nuke the Dock app itself. Then I can see if it will let me put an alias of the OS X drive into an OS 9 popup folder or Apple Menu. Now the last thing is to nuke the blue background picture that is slowing down screen redraw.

P.S. Oh it might be a bad idea to move the dock and not have ur harddisk show up on the desktop... if you don;t, it's essentially impossible to do anything on your machine short of logging out, logining as console, and then creating some sort of shortcut into your hardrive. Or you could even put the dock in the login control panel so it will boot on login... but that doesn't help if you accidentally force quit it.

If I force quit it, it won't be accidental!

Maybe move it to the desktop?

Not a bad idea - then if I lose my mind and want it back, it's there.

By the way, once you get all this crap out of the way, even QuicKeys toolbars popup and work!

 

zpincus

Registered
Johnny,

Your previous post indicated that you really didn't hear anything I was trying to say. This is fine, but I'm not going to try to defend the Aqua interface from "the context of mac OS," as you stated in your post.
My entire point was that the "context of mac os" is an entirely new beast in OS X and really only makes sense when you deal with it on its own terms.

Example: Finder windows no longer belong to one folder in the way that they used to -- hence the browser behaviorthat I find emminently useful. In the "browser" context, a new window command is entirely appropriate.

Sure, it's a new paradigm for the finder. I found it really
confusing and nauseating when I kept trying to apply my OS 9 metaphors to its behavior. But when I just gave up, I learned the new workflow in less than an hour. The only reason it's confusing is that it is difficult to let go of old notions. But you should try, at least for a bit.

As far as the "goto" box, I do see your point. I was thinking about the useful popups in the "full" save dialog (the one with the sliding column view.) I totally agree that the "short" save dialog with just the goto and the "favorites" and the "recent" popups is atrocious. I believe that this is closer to a bug than a "feature" however. Ditto for the fact that all finder windows are named "finder," and the problem of what to do with new finder windows.

Anyhow, my point is that, yes, Aqua and the X desktop.app are departures from Mac OS as we knew it. Yes, a lot of it really doesn't make sense from a "Mac OS context." It is true that we all really did like the old "Mac OS context" -- but just because it is different doesn't mean that it is worse. There are a lot of things that really make my life easier in desktop.app that are totally incompatible with the old context, and that really demanded a new "paradigm." (To name a few: column view, a browser mode that doesn't litter my screen with unnecessary finder windows, disks in a window that I can reposition instead of always having to juggle windows to leave the desktop disks unobscured -- talk about wasted screen real estate!)

Sure, you might say "if it ain't broke, don't fix it," but the more I use desktop.app, the less sure I become that OS 9's finder "ain't broke." (All bugs and optimization issues aside.) So give it a shot. Stop fighting Aqua/desktop.app and you'll find that the learning curve is remarkably short, and has a high payoff.

Zach
Sorry for the long post.

[Edited by zpincus on 12-20-2000 at 12:07 AM]
 

iconcow

Friendly local bovine
Just a reply to an earlier message in this thread.

If you want to kill the dock, just go into Script Editor and type this:

tell application "dock"
quit
end tell

To start it again type:

tell application "dock"
activate
end tell

This will work for any application, including desktop.

- Sam
 

AdmiralAK

Simply Daemonic
My entire point was that the "context of mac os" is an entirely new beast in OS X and really only makes sense when you deal with it on its own terms.

Example: Finder windows no longer belong to one folder in the way that they used to -- hence the browser behaviorthat I find emminently useful. In the "browser" context, a new window command is entirely appropriate.

Let met remind you that ALL computers and ALL OSs demand that you deal with them in the OSs/computers terms. Does anyone remember scotty from Star Trek talking to the Mac mouse trying to get it to do something in one of the Trek movies ? Scotty had to use the keyboard in order for the Mac to deal with him, thus Mac wins. Anyone migrating to the mac from windows ?? Where's the Start bar ?? LOL :p Again you have to adapt.... erm.... How about moving from an Apple IIhs to a full gui machine like the Mac 128k ??? any problems there ?? OF COURSE!!!...

New OSs and computers have at least a minute learning curve, and at most you have to learn a lot of new stuff to operate it! OS X is in the minute appearance if you ask me. Just ignore the friggin' aqua interface! If your habits that worked in OS 7.x, 8.x, 9x dont work.... forget them! Do you think that all will be the same when you upgrade ?? This is not MS, apple DOES sell a different product here and once one lets go of his pre-conceptions he will be able to succeed with OS X and become as capable of a user as in older OS versions!

My thoughts on the matter.
 

monty

Registered
The goto: field IS for entering a path for a different folder but you can also useit a filter. In os 9 you can automatically scroll to the file you want by starting to type it\'s name. the goto: field will do the same thing. Try it!
 

kmx

Registered
Originally posted by JohnnyLundy
Well, I've been using X since Developer Preview 1, and I still get completely lost in the filesystem, I don't know what that "goto:" box in the dialog is for, I don't understand why I can't get a simple path when I save a file instead of the dang "favorites" and "recent" stuff, the Dock covers the bottom of all my windows and can't be moved, the "desktop" is really buried 4 or 5 levels deep instead of being at the top, and there is no desktop button, "command-N" opens a new Finder window instead of a new folder, putting a folder in the Dock works but takes 3 or 4 clicks to use it instead of 2 as a pop-up with buttons does (1 if you are dragging to the popup) (Folder in the Dock: 1 to open it, two to launch your app, one to close the folder if you can find it - fortunately X launches so slowly you can probably close it before it gets obscured by the thing you just opened)

Does anyone know how to kill the Dock? It seems to have a Lazarus-like property somewhere.

>>Johnny
You can kill the Dock, but i think it's too useful to get rid of it. Look around you : are you making the right choice ? You're doing it ?? Ok, there's how to do it :
You can, with AppleScript write this script :
tell application "Dock" to quit
Save the script anywhere as an OSX app, and put it in the Startup Items (See in system preferences -> open or something like that). Now, when you'll turn on your computer, the dock will quit automatically ; since i don't recommend doing it.
 

p940e

Registered
Originally posted by zpincus
I challenge you to try for a while to work in the new paradigm that Apple has sketched out for us with PB.

Zach [/B]
So I tried diggin' on OS X's funk for a while, like you suggested, and you know what? I like it. I don't just like it, I'm really liking it, and only see it getting better.

But you know what really did it for me? Putting the dock on the right side of the screen (ala NEXT). Bam!! Suddenly I've got a glide in my stride and a dip in my hip, I'm headed to the mothership. This is the bomb, the x-funk, as in xtra-funky!! Can you dig?

But check this out, I read on wincent.com that they're taking this dock moving feature out for the final release. What's going on, is Sir Nose (D-Void of Funk) working at apple again!

Well, anyways, head on over to apple's feedback page and let them know we need this feature. We need this new dock to be customizable.

You too can dance in aqua and not get wet!

This has been brought to you by WEFUNK radio (or just some geek that's been listening to too much George Clinton).
 
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