L3 or not L3, that is the question

sinclair_tm

wow, 1.4g is way faster!
i have a da g4/466 and want to upgade the cpu from macsales.com. i'm lookin at the 1.2ghz with 256kL2 and 2mbL3. later i saw that that there is a new chip. for a little more there is a 1.6ghz with 512kL2 and no L3. it would be a stretch to get the 1.6 money wise. so is the 1.6 going to be better enouph then the 1.2 to make a stretch worth it?

btw- even if the 1.4 with L3 is better then the 1.6 i can't afford it; without help from some supper friendly guys.
 
sinclair_tm said:
i have a da g4/466 and want to upgade the cpu from macsales.com. i'm lookin at the 1.2ghz with 256kL2 and 2mbL3. later i saw that that there is a new chip. for a little more there is a 1.6ghz with 512kL2 and no L3. it would be a stretch to get the 1.6 money wise. so is the 1.6 going to be better enouph then the 1.2 to make a stretch worth it?

btw- even if the 1.4 with L3 is better then the 1.6 i can't afford it; without help from some supper friendly guys.


I recommend getting a OWC version G4 upgrade processor instead, as I find them dependable and reliable.
 
I would say get the 1.2 with the large cache -- cache helps tremendously. The 512k of cache on the 1.6 is probably running at full processor speed while the 2mb L3 is probably running at half or 1/4 of the processor speed, the combination of 256k full-speed and 2mb L3 will make a big difference in processor power.

400MHz isn't enough (at least for me) to justify very little cache, be it full speed or not.
 
Okay - Having been through this painfull exercise of considering upgrade G4 processors with or without L3 cache - I feel I am well qualified to dispense my two cents.

Now before I get into it - let me just say that I'm no stranger to the advantages of L3 cache. I couldn't believe the performance difference between my orginal 800mhz G4 (without L3) and the 867mhz G4 (with 2mb L3 cache) that I upgraded it with. It was a real eye opener in terms of what an L3 cache provides - little things, like how converting music files from MP3 to AAC was significantly faster. As someone told me in another forum "Processor cache makes all the difference in the world. RAM (even fast CL2 RAM) will not compensate for lack of or tiny amounts of processor cache."

To understand why L3 cache is so important, you need to understand how L3 cache works.

Apple initially started adding L3 cache to it's G4 line when Motorola was having difficulty providing faster processors. It's an old trick - but a successful one. CPU's already have L1 and L2 cache. Generally, most operating systems only need to store a small amount of data that is frequently used by the CPU - and therefore there is a 80-90% possibility that the frequently used data the operating system needs will be in the L1 or L2 cache. If it's not, it will then access RAM. (And if it's not in RAM it will be on the hard drive.) However powerful modern applications (like Photoshop and games) have more than just a little amount of frequently accessed data - they have a sizable chunk, quite often bigger than a few MB's. When these modern programs start up, they load a large amount of data that it 'might' use into RAM. By adding a decent sized L3 cache you can cut out the high latency's (read time) that it takes the CPU to keep accessing this larger amount of frequently used data, because (instead of being in RAM) it is right there in the L3 cache. If there is no L3 cache, the CPU will have to be continually accessing RAM - which is much slower. So depending on the application or the type of processing an L3 cache can provide a significant boost in CPU productivity by either storing frequently used data or by continually keeping the CPU fed with the data it is processing.

Lets see what the Apple marketing department had to say:

"L3 cache keeps the PowerPC G4’s engine stoked

L3 cache is high-speed memory. It provides fast access to data and application code through a dedicated bus to the processor. This dedicated bus provides throughput of up to 4 gigabytes per second (GBps), and is completely unhindered by any other data transfers. The high speed made possible by L3 cache, with its dedicated bus, allows the PowerPC G4 processor to receive data more than five times faster than it could from main memory (where a shared bus lowers speed). Because of this low latency, the G4 processor is constantly fed with data. So it doesn’t just sit idle, waiting for the next set of data to arrive. And whether you choose a new Power Mac G4 with a single-processor or dual-processor configuration, you can be sure of one thing: each processor comes with its own dedicated L3 cache. In a dual-processor configuration, this enables both processors to share data seamlessly with each other without pausing to update main memory. The result? Accelerated processing. With up to 2MB of dedicated memory, the L3 cache can store large amounts of active application code and data. When you run an application, most of the active program code and user data remains in the L3 cache. This keeps the most important information instantly accessible to the processor. (It’s analogous to caching web pages on your hard drive: when you click the Back button on your web browser, your computer uses the digital data you downloaded moments before, instead of downloading the same data again.) This is in marked contrast to the situation with PC architecture, where data travels from main memory to the processor through the system controller, elbowing its way through streams of data and instructions from other subsystems. The congestion caused by the merging of these various data streams results in slowdowns in the overall transfer rate and this in turn hampers application performance."

(Phew! - Glad I got that over with...)

I asked a guy at GigaDesigns to explain the difference between a CPU with L3 cache and one without. This is what he said: "I would like to talk a little more about the benefits etc. of L3 cache (or no L3). In our tests we have seen in a mixed application environment that not having a L3 Cache represents about a 10% penality. That is a Dual 1.8GHz w/o L3 will perform on par with a 1.6GHz with L3. Some applications exaggerate this as they rely more on L3 than others. Others like the OS do not seem to use L3 at all and therefore gain the full performance benefit."

Gigadesigns somewhere publicly stated that a 1.4GHz 7455 was equal to a 1.73GHz 7447. That gives you an good idea how the two different processors fair up. It was stated that the slower 7455 made up for the 18-19% speed increase because it had an L3 cache. From my research (from numerous sources) the general accepted percentage difference seems to be around 17% - that is, a processor with 1MB (or more) of L3 cache will be on average 17% faster than the same processor (at the same processor speed) without L3 cache.

So... If L3 cache is so important, why do people even bother with the 7447 processors which has no L3 cache? And why does Apple use the 7447 processor in many of its machines like the 'eMac'?

The answer to this is simple. The 7447 is a newer design that can operate at higher CPU speeds, has much lower power consumption (MUCH - read 40% less) and is therefore cooler operating. It's a bit of a trade off. By providing a slightly larger L2 cache and a faster system bus (the eMac that uses 7447 processors has a 167MHz system bus) you kind of make up for the lack of L3 cache. Furthermore, it's not just because the 7447 design doesn't support L3 cache - adding fast memory (L3 cache) to a processor is expensive and significantly increases production costs. Adding to the confusion is the fact that not all applications need or take advantage of an L3 cache. So, in those situations more MHz is much more desirable.

See this link: (http://www.barefeats.com/g4up.html) - And notice these words at the conclusion. "PERFORMANCE INSIGHTS 3. Note that the Dual G4/1.4GHz is faster than the Dual G4/1.8GHz when running Photoshop MP actions and all four 3D Game tests. That's because the Dual G4/1.4GHz Power Mac has 2MB of L3 cache per processor. The Dual 1.8 only has 512K L2 cache per processor."

Anyway - I'm starting to ramble... The point being is that L3 cache (and whether it is important) is very subjective and really depends on what applications you use and how you use your computer. After doing all this research, I ended up buying a used dual 1GHz Quicksilver processor - and couldn't be happier. Sure there are times when I wish it was slightly faster - but there are also times when the L3 cache (combined with the dual processors) really kick in - and I go "Gee, this thing ROCKS!"

I would personally go the 1.2GHz with L3 cache...
 
.. i have a cpu-board with 2 800Mhz cpu's and 2Mb L3 cache per cpu.

apaerantly one of the L3 chips is toasted, because on a cold boot, the computer either kernel-panics while booting, or boots fine with 1 cpu enabled, and WITH L3 cache..

on a hot reboot it will always boot fine with 2 cpu's but without L3 cache.

this situation enabled me to investigate the difference in performance with or withoutl L3 cache.. and it's amazing.

in many situation the single setup with L3 is much faster then the dual setup (without L3).
especially graphics operations are a multiple faster. also the osx gui is much more snappy.

i'd go for a cpu with L3 (and if you can, get a dual..)
 
Thanks for the anwsers. but to play devils advocate, if L3 gives you 17% increase, that would but the 1.2 to about 1.4, wich is still less then the 1.6. thoughts on that. also, will the L3 really be a help with iLife 05? which is what i'll be using it the most for, old home movies into dvds.
btw i already have a capture card on my win xp pc, so the mac will not be doing the cature, but the editing, encoding and burning.
 
this 17% is really an avarage

especially with graphics/rendering the increase can be much more than that
and in other cases there might not be a difference at all
 
er... yeah - it's just an average.

The reason you will not get a straight "yes or no" answer is because (as I stated above) the advantages of an L3 cache rely heavily on what application you are using and what you are asking the computer to perform.

Many applications will not benefit much from the L3 cache. They are either designed for processors without L3 cache (and don't use it to their advantage), or are applications that do not require frequent access to memory. In these situations the extra MHz will give you an edge. The (very noticable) exception to this seems to be video editing and file conversion. Here, the data needs to be continally feed to the processor - and the addition of an L3 cache really shows a performance increase when processes such as these are performed.

I remember reading somewhere how video editing software such as "Final Cut Pro" could fit most of it's loaded application files into the 2MB L3 cache. As a result, the performance increase was between 30%-45% in comparison to the same processor without L3 cache. That's nearly twice the speed!

Most graphics/rendering operations will benefit significantly from an L3 cache. Even if the 1.6GHz processor makes up for the lack of L3 cache - I imagine you would still be happier with the 1.2 L3 cache processor. Why? - because overall it will be snappier, smooother, and more responsive. You may not be faster - but you will "feel" like it's pretty fast. I have played around with all sorts of Macs with and without L3 cache - and I always leave with the impression that the L3 cache enabled Mac was nicer to use. It just "felt" better. (I know that's a pretty ambiguous answer - but it's the best I can do without sitting you down in front of the two different computers.)

The reason the CPU manufacturer's have pushed the 7447 (no L3 cache) design G4 has more to do with:
1. reduced power consumption (makes the CPU suitable for ALL PowerMacs - and not just those that have decent PSU's)
2. operating temperatures (lower temp's mean less burnt out CPU's - which means less RMA's and more reliability)
3. reduced cost in manufacture (because fast speed RAM is expensive).
They have pushed the 7447 series G4 for the above 3 reasons more than the performance increase extra MHz gives.

If your intention is to do video "editing, encoding and burning" I would strongly recommend the L3 cache enabled processor. The two processors would probably end up being the same speed wise - but the L3 cache enabled processor will definitely be more pleasurable...

If you need any more answers - Just ask yourself this question:
Why is the 1.4 G4 processor (with L3 cache) significantly more expensive than the 1.6 G4 processor without L3 cache?

(If anyone disagrees with my above comments - please, by all means - prove me wrong!!!)
 
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