Number 1 reason I love MacOSX.

rinse

www.visualrinse.com
It has given me the power to install PHP and MySQL and use my Mac to help me learn Web Development.

Before, I was primarily just a designer, however with OSX, now I have the tools and backend to learn a whole new area of expertise... Hopefully this will help me find a job, as being a designer just doesn't seem to be enough thes days.

For you UNIX junkies out ther, my question is this....

What is the employment market like for people that know PHP/MySQL? Is there a demand for these skills?
 
php is not difficult to learn at all. i really love it, especially compared to cgi/perl.
 
I've just started doing some CGI programming and I rather like it. I do it in Python, not Perl, though, and it's phenomenally easy. So what's the difference between PHP and CGI? What can you do with PHP that's so great? I don't mean to be aggressive. I'm actually curious about PHP and might want to do some myself if it seems useful.

-The Valrus
 
Well, after attempting rather unsuccessfully to learn PERL a while ago... I read a bit on PHP and decided to take it up.

It is just so easy compared to PERL. While I am not yet a master at it, I think that it is nearly as easy to learn now as HTML was years ago for me.
 
What's wrong with CGI: slower, uses more memory, probably more likely to be misprogrammed and insecure. Puts more of a strain on the host computer than Java or Javascript does (of course the compiled server modules share that problem).

There are a lot of things right about CGI, especially portability if you program CGIs in perl (python less so). The problem is that web and net technology are expanding faster than many of us can keep up with, both at the client and server end. If you want to be a web guru now you should also have more than a passing familiarity with XML, SOAP, etc. [I recommend http://www.apple.com/applescript/macosx/script_menu/], and with the CSSes. Since you're already into Python, why not check out Zope?

Originally posted by Valrus
I've just started doing some CGI programming and I rather like it. I do it in Python, not Perl, though, and it's phenomenally easy. So what's the difference between PHP and CGI? What can you do with PHP that's so great? I don't mean to be aggressive. I'm actually curious about PHP and might want to do some myself if it seems useful.

-The Valrus

Here's my take:

PHP 4 is probably faster overall than perl-mod and definitely than python-mod when running with an Apache server. For this reason, and because PHP seems to be easier to use for most people, I think the odds that your ISP or employer or whatever will have PHP are greater than having perl-mod or python-mod. PHP can be compiled to run as a CGI too. The reason people use php-mod and perl-mod vs. using perl or PHP or python or VB CGIs is that the latter use more memory and are slower.

There are other possibilities for a server - server-side javascript or python-mod for example. Moreover you might be running something like Netscape server or NT server. You might be running the server from Zope (a python-derived package). You might even have only active server page capacity instead of php. If I were only writing php for my own use or for something that I ran, I would use .asp-like tags, so that if I have to try writing some ASP code at least it won't feel so alien.

If you program in a structured way, particularly in an object-oriented way, a lot of that won't matter.

For example, I might have essentially the same website one place using php and mysql, and on another, which doesn't seem to have any mods, I would use javascript to include files, and a perl module called Sprite to manipulate csv data files.

In both cases I would use structures and functions to do the same things, access data, include files, do updates. Only the guts of the components would change, not the output, or, much, the names of the functions, structures, databases, etc.
 
http://www.scriptlance.com/ is a place where you can place bids to win jobs that are posted on a board. Get a reputation for good work there and that could lead into some occasional semi-pro work without leaving the house. I just put a project up there myself :) Sorry, can't help with anything bigger.

Zim
 
When I first started doing web development programming about a year ago, I started with Perl CGI scripting. Perl was alright to learn but I have never become completely comfortable with it. My programming background is primarily in object oriented langauges like C/C++ and Java. So learning Perl wasn't that much of stretch to pick up. Recently though, I have started programming in PHP and I tend to like it much more than Perl. From what I have seen and read, PHP is very object oriented and inherits a lot from C/C++ I believe, as well as a great deal from Perl. So if you have learned Perl then learning PHP should be a fairly easy migration. Although, there are things you have to watch for if you are used to Perl. Occassionally there are methods or functions for doing things in Perl that when used in PHP will yield slightly different results. Often times these differences will be pointed out in good PHP reference books and on the PHP.net reference pages.

I've never programmed in ASP, but I'm told that PHP is the open-source crossplatform equivalent. PHP scripts generally look just like HTML documents, you start them out and write it all in HTML until you get to a spot where you might want to stick in some code. Then you insert an "<? " followed by the PHP scripting you want to do with your usual loops and print statements like in perl. Then end your scripting with a " ?>" and go back to HTML. So basically, you're writing an HTML document while inserting little code blocks to do more complex or tedious tasks with some code here and there.

I still haven't learned what MySQL is and how it's useful. I know SQL often has to do with databases and stuff, but I'm not sure about MySQL. I work a lot with databases outside of web dev, but have never set one up on a server myself though. I'd love to setup a database structure with various tables for storing information with various web development applications, but I resort to flat files since I have never learned how to do this. If MySQL is the answer, I am all ears and would love to learn.
 
Originally posted by RHITMacMan
I still haven't learned what MySQL is and how it's useful. I know SQL often has to do with databases and stuff, but I'm not sure about MySQL.
SQL only has to do with databases. Nothing else. SQL is the language, MySQL is a free version of SQL. Like if we were talking about C/C++, C/C++ is the language and Borland is a version of it. The reason I say version is because there are specific things that the particular versions do differently (for example MS uses data structures like CString and CStringArray, but Borland (to my best knowledge) doesn't have those).
 
Originally posted by RHITMacMan
If MySQL is the answer, I am all ears and would love to learn.

MySQL is definitely a good starting database to learn... after installing it, you can find great documentation at mysql.org.... that is where i learned neraly everything. i also bought a couple books by Julie Meroni on PHP/MySQL development...

since learning that stuff, I have come to find that there are some limitations in MySQL that someone coming from an ASP/MS SQL background might be a bit perturbed with, like the lack of true sub-selects and what-not... but overall it is pretty nice, especially since it is free!

to get started with installing MySQL on MacOSX, go to:

http://www.entropy.ch/software/macosx/welcome.html

this guy has the best packages and instructions around... my installations have not broken yet, and i have been running both PHP and MySQL since at least 10.1.3
 
Sweet, I'll definitely have to check this out. I'd really love to create database tables to store information gathered from user input on web forms, instead of flat comma delimited text files. I think a database structure would be so much more powerful.
 
About PHP:
I started using PHP several years ago. Its a great language for quick websites. The problem is it requires you to mix the code with html. In theory, your application should be split into 4 areas: user interface, presentation logic, business logic, and data. PHP makes it very difficult to do this.

Perl was one of the first languages used for dynamic web sites. Perl was the main CGI language. Now there is a apache module called mod_perl which puts the perl into Apache which improves performance greatly. There is also a Perl web development framework called Mason which is very similar to PHP.

As far as databases go, I used MySQL initially for web development. But I have since switched to PostgreSQL. PostgreSQL is more SQL compliant, supports transactions, supports subselects, user defined types and functions, and more robust than MySQL. MySQL is faster for basic web pages that do nothing more than retrieving data, but if your site includes a lot of data entry, then PostgreSQL is much faster.
 
MySQL is definitely a good starting database to learn... after installing it, you can find great documentation at mysql.org.... that is where i learned neraly everything. i also bought a couple books by Julie Meroni on PHP/MySQL development...

I am assuming you meant Meloni and not Meroni since I found no books by Julie Meroni. So after doing a search on Amazon for books by Julie Meloni, I found the below books. Would these be the books you found useful?

- Sams Teach Yourself MySQL in 24 Hours
by Julie C. Meloni

- Php Fast & Easy Web Development (Fast & Easy Web Development)
by Julie C. Meloni

- Php Essentials (Prima Tech Linux Series)
by Julie Meloni

There's a couple PHP books listed, I was wondering if you have one the ones listed. Which of the books actually taught MySQL use with PHP? The MySQL in 24 Hours book, or one of the PHP books? I looked over the MySQL.org webpage and it looked really promising for some stuff I'd like to do. I can't wait to start using/experimenting with this stuff.
 
Originally posted by RHITMacMan

- Php Fast & Easy Web Development (Fast & Easy Web Development)
by Julie C. Meloni

- Php Essentials (Prima Tech Linux Series)
by Julie Meloni

those two are it... sorry bout the misspelling... both of those books are helpful in learning PHP, but certainly not a PHP bible or exhaustive reference... for things like that, i tend to use th online manual at zend or phpbuilder.com

PHP Fast & easy has a nice MySQL appendix that covers some of the more basic functions and integrating it with PHP... for a more exhaustive manual on MySQL go to www.mysql.org

i found Fast and Easy to be the better of the two, but Essentials is not bad either.
 
why not move this discussion to "Programming/Porting Carbon and Cocoa", where the cool dudes roam... no seriously, this board needs a webdeveloper-list.


theo
 
maybe teh site does need a web developer type furom, but this definitely doesn't belong in the Programming/Porting Carbon Cocoa board... web developmetn and software dev are worlds away from each other... i don't have a clue as to how to make an applicaiton, but i cna do some cool web stuff.

:)
 
I can do both, write software and do web development. Although, I would have to say that I excel at web development. There actually is a lot of commonality between web development coding and software coding I must say. With Java, this transition so much more easy.

Anyway, I thank you very much for your book recommendations. I went wild shopping on Amazon and decided to get 4 new books. I concentrated my efforts on finding books that would teach me more about PHP/MySQL and Unix shell scripting. A lot of people gave good reviews or recommendations for the following books, so I decided to get them. You might like to check them out too, except for the ones you already have. I read a lot of great reviews especially for the Welling/Thomson and Kochan/Wood books.

- Php Fast & Easy Web Development (Fast & Easy Web Development)
Julie C. Meloni

- PHP and MySQL Web Development
Luke Welling, Laura Thomson

- Sams Teach Yourself Shell Programming in 24 Hours
Sriranga Veeraraghavan

- UNIX Shell Programming, Revised Edition
Stephen G. Kochan, Patrick H. Wood (Contributor)
 
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