OS9/OSx (?)

G

granas

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Hello to everyone, it's nice to find a little corner of the net so enthusiastically populated by mac fans. I'm new, as you probably already realised, and I have only just returned to the mac "fold" after an absence since OS8.6 on an Imac. An here lies the nature of my question - I recently aquired a G4 500mhz system for a stupidly low price from my workplace, it has OSX installed on it, but also a OS9 system. I have already noticed from browsing my applications that OSX supports "older" software by running what I presume is OS9 emulation, so, to do this does OSX rely on there being OS9 already installed also and consequently do I need to leave the OS9 system folder alone - or can it be safety removed leaving just OSX - in other words, wil OSX "cope" within itself for the emulation.

My original temptation was to buy Tiger and start from scratch - but given that the full Adobe creative suite, amongst others, is installed, I'd rather avoid that option just at the moment. If OS9 can be "ditched" safely, can anyone recommend a "do and dont" method for me.

I'm sorry for what must seem like a real "newbie" question, but I've been away using Windows (out of necessity) and Linux (for pleasure).:D
 
If you want to use OS 9 programs, you must keep OS 9 installed. OS X doesn't use emulation; it uses the "Classic" environment, which is like booting up your entire OS 9 installation in a virtual machine. It uses all of your preferences and most of your extensions just as if you booted straight into OS 9.

Since Classic runs on its native hardware, it's not technically "emulation".
 
Someone else might be able to answer this a little better, but I'm going to give it a try. Feel free to correct me if I miss something or miss the mark entirely.

OS X has a "Classic" environment, which is an OS 9 emulator. This means that you can install and run OS 9 apps (some of which are installed with the Classic system), right from within OS X.

If you look at the root of your hard disk, you may find two applications folders:
1. Applications: This contains all your OS X apps.
2. Applications (Mac OS 9): This contains all your OS 9 apps.

You should be able to delete the second folder listed above without a problem if you are looking to conserve disk space. However, this does not uninstall Classic support, which will still function should you decide to go ahead and run a Classic app that ran under OS 9. I'd actually leave the folder itself, and get rid of the apps inside, if I were you. The size of my 'Applications (Mac OS 9)' folder is only about 170 MB on the disk, so go ahead and burn it to a CD in case you decide later that you want it back, or want something that was in the folder.

Also note that Classic is not installed on a Mac when you get it new. You need to insert on of the installation DVDs (at least on Panther and Tiger) to and install it yourself. Someone must have done this already on your Mac.

Here is where I am not sure, so someone else will need to answer this part. Regarding having both OS 9 and OS X installed on the same drive...is that possible? If you see that 'Applications (Mac OS 9)' folder, you have Classic installed, not a true, standalone copy of OS 9, but an emulator. I'm sure that you could install OS 9 on a machine that also runs OS X, but wouldn't you also need to have the disk partitioned so you could install each OS on a different volume? Someone else can answer that one. You probably just have Classic, however, so it won't apply to you.
 
Mikuro said:
If you want to use OS 9 programs, you must keep OS 9 installed. OS X doesn't use emulation; it uses the "Classic" environment, which is like booting up your entire OS 9 installation in a virtual machine. It uses all of your preferences and most of your extensions just as if you booted straight into OS 9.

Since Classic runs on its native hardware, it's not technically "emulation".
Click to expand...
You must have typed faster than I did and beat me to answering the question. I stand corrected regarding the use of the term "emulation" to describe Classic in my initial response.

I'd forgotten to ask previously, though...how can you remove Classic, if you wanted to? I assume it eats a bit of disk space, so deleting it might save some space, if it was no longer required.
 
Looking in preferences, I have the option of 2 "system discs" OSX and OS9 - although the only partitions on the system are the "system" partition itself and a completely virgin partition (the rest of the drive) - It isn't actually a space issue really, still in excess of 20Gb on the drive - but being a Linux nut, I like to keep things tidy - something that is a necessity with windoze, not an option. I may well leave everything "as-is" in that case - I have a Lacie firewire drive kicking around somewhere if I get desperate. Thanks for the prompt replies by the way guys - greatly appreciated. Now if I can just keep off my Windows laptop and my Linux box I might just be able to "think apple" again :)
 
dmetzcher said:
...

OS X has a "Classic" environment, which is an OS 9 emulator. This means that you can install and run OS 9 apps (some of which are installed with the Classic system), right from within OS X.
Click to expand...
Classic is not an emulator. Classic is a superset of MacOS 9. It is PPC code running on PPC hardware. Because granas has a MacOS 9-bootable computer, his Classic environment is the same OS (including fonts, extensions, etc.) that he boots when booting directly into MacOS 9. To the user, the major difference between Classic and MacOS 9 is that Classic uses the MacOS X Finder.
dmetzcher said:
Here is where I am not sure, so someone else will need to answer this part. Regarding having both OS 9 and OS X installed on the same drive...is that possible?
Click to expand...
Every Mac shipped by Apple with Classic preinstalled has MacOS 9 and MacOS X on the same partition of the same drive. Suffice it to say, it is possible.
dmetzcher said:
If you see that 'Applications (Mac OS 9)' folder, you have Classic installed, not a true, standalone copy of OS 9, but an emulator. I'm sure that you could install OS 9 on a machine that also runs OS X, but wouldn't you also need to have the disk partitioned so you could install each OS on a different volume? Someone else can answer that one. You probably just have Classic, however, so it won't apply to you.
Click to expand...
I really recommend that you not uninstall Classic. It consumes only about 300 MB of space. If you need this space, you really need another hard drive. Left alone, Classic takes nothing about a miniscule amount of hard disk space. OTOH, a search of this forum will reveal numerous newbies begging for help to reinstall Classic because they now need it.
 
Like MisterMe said, you can install OS X and OS 9 on the same partition. Many people recommend installing the two on separate partitions for performance reasons, which is the route I go (when I have Classic installed; I've actually done without it since upgrading from my CRT iMac to this Mac mini), but I never noticed any real performance difference. I think this advice was probably more relevant with 10.0 and 10.1.

Even when they're on the same partition, you can select which to boot from in the Startup Disk control panel (in OS 9) or preference pane (in OS X). You can even install two OS 9 systems on the same partition and switch between them this way, which I also used to do. (Note: It's not recommended to switch from one 9 system to another on the same partition while booted into 9. I'm not sure why, but they warn you if you try. So I when I needed to switch, I'd boot into X, switch it, then boot back to the other 9 system.)

Removing Classic is easy: drag your "System Folder" to the Trash. That's all you really need to do. You'll probably also want to delete your OS 9 Applications, and you might want to empty out the contents of your OS 9 desktop folders, which are invisible in OS X. In OS 9, every volume has an invisible folder in its root directory called "Desktop Folder", where all of that volume's desktop items reside. OS X does not use this method. I'm not sure exactly how to access this folder in OS X (by default there's an alias somewhere, but most people probably delete it), but I imagine you could use the Go menu > Go To Folder option, and type "/Desktop Folder". But since I can't boot OS 9 on this machine, I have no OS 9 desktop folders, so I can't say for sure.


Just to make it clear, Classic uses the exact same System Folder that you can use to boot your machine straight into OS 9.
 
If you're going to upgrade to Tiger, make sure you save your Classic System Folder before wiping the drive, as the retail version of Tiger doesn't include Classic or OS 9, and hasn't since OS X 10.1. Therefore, if you don't have the original CDs, make sure you save your installation, or be prepared to shell out more $$ for a legit copy of OS 9.
 
Thanks for all the replies guys, I wanted to know wether OSX relied on the OS9 system folder for it's backwards compatibility, and you've answered - it does. That at least removes any doubt from my mind of "sloppy" housekeeping by my macs' previous owner. OS9 can stay exactly where it is then, even when i move up to Tiger, and I've found my Lacie Firewire drive out and it still works - so space is not even vaguely an issue.

I've had the system for a few more days now, and with each hour that passes i'm remembering all the little nuances that go with the Mac - and wonder why the hell I didn't just save and buy a new mac when my last Imac died?. I'm going off on a complete tangent now, but does anyone have any experience with the G4 processor upgrades?, value for money, or best avoided?
 
sourcehound said:
If you're going to upgrade to Tiger, make sure you save your Classic System Folder before wiping the drive, as the retail version of Tiger doesn't include Classic or OS 9, and hasn't since OS X 10.1. Therefore, if you don't have the original CDs, make sure you save your installation, or be prepared to shell out more $$ for a legit copy of OS 9.
Click to expand...
So, you only get the Classic environment if you buy a new Mac? I got it with Panther, when I got my iBook. I didn't know that you can't get a copy with the retail DVD of Panter or Tiger. How does one get it then? I don't ever remember seeing it in the Apple store or on their Web site.
 
dmetzcher said:
So, you only get the Classic environment if you buy a new Mac? I got it with Panther, when I got my iBook. I didn't know that you can't get a copy with the retail DVD of Panter or Tiger. How does one get it then? I don't ever remember seeing it in the Apple store or on their Web site.
Click to expand...

You can get it from third party vendors. MacResQ is one place, and all the other major places like MacMall and others should have them for salce as well.

A good list of vendors for old hardware and software can be found on the Low End Mac website.
 
the OS disks that are shipped with a mac install the latest version of the OS, and also 9.2.2

the Retail DVD/CDs only contain the actual release of OSX, no earlier versions, and no additional software like iLife or Nanosaur etc.
 
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