Republican or Democrat or other?

[ScottW]

Go Harvestr!

I'm the Conservative Cheer-Leader! HA!

 

[Cat]

A link between Sadam and 9/11? You are right, it might not exist, but do you honestly think he has absolutely nothing to do with terrorism at all. Come on dude, don't be that naive/stupid. If you honestly think he didn't have anything at all, then that is sad.

Sadam's Iraq was a secular military dictature, Saddam actively opposed religious fundamentalism as it threatened his power.

We know for a fact that he used chemical weapons on his own people in the past.

He used chemical weapons on a curd village, which he didn't exactly considered to be "his own people". the curds were revolting and didn't exactly consider Saddam their leader. So the "his own people" isn't quite right. Moreover what you could have rather claimed is that he used chemical weapons in his war against Iran. This war, by the way, was supported and partially paid for by the USA.

We know he hates us and he is a rich dictator that has commited terroristic acts in the past.

Have you ever honestly asked yourself why Saddam and many others hate the USA? Has ever the idea that they could have reasons (good or bad) to hate you? Did you ever consider addressing those possible reasons with diplomacy instead of using military pressure? Saddam might have been personally rich, but Iraq was (and still is) bankrupt. It couldn't have invaded a child's sandbox if it had wanted to.

So, he is on the list of targets in the War on Terrorism. Save up your tears for the next war. Yes ye of little intelect, there will be more wars.

When does the War on Hunger start? Or the War on Poverty?

Unless you want to risk your life on the actions of terrorists within our shores, I say you just sit back and enjoy the comforts and security provide to you by the efforts of Bush and other like minded people who understand that evil exists and it will grow unless you stamp it out.

Actually Afghanistan still has no democracy or freedom, Iraq is still not secure, Pakistan is a military dictatorship, the 9-11 hijackers were mostly from Saudi Arabia against which nothing is being done and Bin Laden is still on the loose ... tell me, how has all that made the USA or the rest of the world more secure?

Your war on terrorism fights symptoms, not causes.

 

[brianleahy]

ok, this is exactly the sort of thing I was worried would happen here.

As more than one commentator has said, it's become virtually impossible to have a civil discussion about politics in this country. I can't see any way the previous post can be regarded as anything other than a personal attack...?

EDIT: while I was typing, several more posts occurred. I was referring to Harvestr's .

I "vote" we abandon this thread; if you want to have a political pie-fight, there are many more appropriate places than macosx.com -- even the cafe section.

 

[TommyWillB]

Go Christians!

I'm the Conservative Cheer-Leader! HA!

Since there are 0 votes for "Pure R" and "ideas can change people", I guess we should assume that yours is a vote for "religion is more important that politics".

Since no one here thinks that ideas can change people, then I don't see the point in arguing. Obviously this is like an inkblot test. Some of you see Terror in every blot. Some of us see only blots of ink.

I know for a fact the "intellegence" the public is seeing is highly vetted and what's under the "Classified" inked out sections won't be known until generations from now.

I wonder how long until we have the computer-age digital version of the Nixon tapes?

 

[TommyWillB]

Political tangent...

Is there any way of determining which of our elected officials use Mac's vs. PC's?

If so, maybe we can all unite in support of our Mac using leaders?




Edit: Oh... I see that brianleahy just created a thread on this very topic! Perfect timing!

Edit #2: Double funny.. brian just posted the response below as I was editing this one! lol

 

[brianleahy]

Political tangent...

Is there any way of determining which of our elected officials use Mac's vs. PC's?

If so, maybe we can all unite in support of our Mac using leaders?

Funny you should mention that:
http://www.macosx.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44945

 

[ScottW]

I don't know what all the fuss is about. Face it, whether you believe it or not, whether you like it or not... God is in control. Seriously.

There is no reason to question why the central point of the entire world is around Israel. Heck, no other place in the world (which makes news) has a place that two religious organizations claim as their own... that God has given them.

The Jews believe that Israel is their God given land and the temple mount is Holy. The muslims believe that the temple mount is theirs and Jerusalem is their land. Hence, the dome of the rock and what not.

Now, some of you might just see this as a long standing bickering going on... but take if from a different perspective...

Suppose that Israel is God's given land for the Jews. Suppose, for the sake of this conversation, the Jews serve the one true God, the only God, the God the created the heavens and the earth, the same God that created you.

Now, the muslims serve, not the one true God, but another god... and let's say, for the sake of this conversation that is Satan.

Now, for the sake of this conversation... let's analyze what is going on here. God gives a land to His people. It is also the exact location that Jesus will return and setup His Kingdom... yep, in Israel. Now... considering spiritual warfare... let's consider that Satan is attempting to thwart the coming Kingdom of God (as though he really could). Build a building on the site, create havoc for the Jews.. make the Jews question their own God.

Wow... you say.. Scott, that makes for a fantastic story. Thanks, but no thanks.

Now, for the sake of this conversation, humor me now... that this *IS* what is going on. That the turmoil in Iraq, in Iran, in Syria, and all around that area of the world... is in constant turmoil? Why... cause of this spiritual warfare. It goes on not just in Israel, but in every country, against every person including those on this forum.

Since you are humoring me in this view point and in this "story" let's take into account what the Bible predicts about coming times... that the war of Armageddon has what? All forces of the world heading toward Israel, to destroy it. Could the USA be part of this? Maybe? Maybe not. What about the EU? Of course... many see (although just human abilities here) that the President of the new EU (maybe not the current one) is the person who will make peace with Israel. The Bible says that prior to this world ending war, that a 7 year peace treaty will be signed for peace for Israel. Hmmm... someone who could use peace right now is Israel.

Interestingly... the Bible says the person who signs this accord with Israel, is the anti-Christ. The number of his name is 666. Although still surrounded in mystery on what that really is... but did you know that the number of the bill or amendment or whatever of the EU that creates the Presidential position of the EU is 666. That is not a joke.

I'm not say it will be a EU President, that is just a theory, but what the Bible says, has always been true and will continue to be true.

So, whether you think all this is for a war, whether or not you think that leaders of countries are selected by people, whether or not you think that the war on poverty is going to solve world issues... think again.

An interesting book review I heard recently that you the USA has three possible methods to solve the war on terrorism (secular view BTW)...

1) Firewall off the USA from all outsiders. Not really possible.

2) Go after and kill all the terrorist. Not possible because more are being created daily than could be killed.

3) Go in and setup democracy and bring OUR world, our way of life, technology, freedoms and what not and introduce it to the middle east. (this is what the USA chose on options)

The terrorists want to impose their view of the world... and keep technology out of the hands of the people. Look at Iraq under Saddam. What little technology did they have to communicate or know what was going on outside the country.

By introducing our method of life and our technology... the people taste it and don't want to go back. If we can push THe REAL WORLD into the middle east faster than the terrorist can push their way of life onto those countries and into the rest of the world... that is the way you win the war on terror.

But, no matter the view, no matter even my view... God is in control and ALL THINGS work toward the Glory of God... even those things we might deem bad.

Scott

 

[brianleahy]

Great, politics AND religion now. Plus duelling condescension.

I got my fill of this in the Darwin/Evolution thread earlier this year, and that one was conducted with an unprecedented degree of mutual respect and civility. This thread's history can't compare.

Count me out.

 

[TommyWillB]

...whether you like it or not... God is in control. Seriously.

There is no reason to question...

...the God the created the heavens and the earth...

...the muslims serve... another god... Satan.

...the Bible predicts... the war of Armageddon... this world ending war...

...the person who signs this accord with Israel, is the anti-Christ.

...(if) you think that the war on poverty is going to solve world issues... think again.

...Go after and kill all the terrorist.... more are being created daily...

By introducing our method of life and our technology... you win the war on terror.

God is in control (of) those things we might deem bad.

Sheesh...

I thought you said you were a "cheer leader". Not a very cheery view you've got my friend.

Doom,gloom, fire and brimstone cometh... Why even bother having opinions about cool Mac's when clearly they are the work of the atheiset devil Steve Jobs? Why even think at all since all things are already decided and there are "no questions"?

 

[ScottW]

Doom and Gloom? Quite the contrary. In fact, I know where I will be when my life passes on this earth. So... I do have something to look forward too.

Although you are free to make your own decisions, God fore-knew the decisions you would make... even before you where created. Being a just God, creating a man who will not follow you, is the ultimate in free choice. You have the choice to serve or not to serve, to believe or not to believe. God gives you the gift of everlasting life through Christ, all you have to do is believe. Best gift I have ever received or will ever.

It doesn't matter your past, your current situation... how bad you have been or how good you think you are... all can receive.

Scott

 

[brianleahy]

There is no logical way to reconcile that God both knew in advance every choice each of us would make AND that He gave us free will.

Any creature whose every move can be predicted in advance has no free will; only, perhaps, the illusion of it.

 

[ScottW]

Brian, I thought you took your ball and bat and went home? Glad you could stay.

You need to think about this differently...

You are driving down the road and you come to a red light. Your options are to turn left or right. Your turn left. You freely made the decision to turn left.

God, being all knowing... KNEW that you would make a decision to turn left instead of turning right. Just because He knew it doesn't mean you didn't have free choice in the matter. He didn't predestine you to turn left, you turned left on your own. Simple because he knew that information doesn't mean we don't have free will.

Another example..

Although this is a very POOR example because we humans can't predict very well... but consider a severe thunderstorm. We can see it on radar, we know the approx direction it is going and when it will cross a certain area of a county. Simply because we know the general direction of the storm and it's direction... doesn't mean the storm still doesn't have the ability to go in it's own direction.

Of course... God knows where the storm will be, what it will do and how many rain drops fell... even before time began. So the storm example is not a really good anology, but clearly shows that pre-knowledge doesn't necessarily mean control of.

 

[Harvestr]

Cat, I know why Sadam hates us, and why others hate us and it is not our fault. Sure, the orginal disagreement may be based off something we did, but the reaction is unjustified no matter how you look at it. If you honestly think we DESERVE 9/11 and other such actions, then I feel very sorry for you. Many nations piss one another off, but you don't see them jumping on planes and taking out each others citizens with them. Hell, if the U.S. and Russia acted like these terrorists, we would have nuced each other to hell in the 1980s and we would be blowing up building in France right now.

Your "US is the real evil" is typical leftist rhetoric that I could have taken right out of Sean Hannity's book, Deliver Us from Evil. You are ignorant to the fact that no matter what we do, others will hate us. If a country has a problem with us, then lets negotiate and come to an agreement. Yet if they avoid that course of action and instead attack us and kill us, then all diplomacy is out the window.

You also have forgotten about the 15 years that we used diplomacy in Iraq. UN weapons inspectors that were not given access to certain areas of Iraq, buildings that were off limits, resolutions that he broke, etc., etc. We put up with that for 15 years. Why do you think such a course was going to suddenly change for the better. You think 16 years is the gestation period for the birth of civility from a known terrorist regiem? I think anyone who backs their thinking with a good amount of logic would agree that his time should have been up a long time ago.

Your theory of appeasement and containment has never worked, EVER! Try looking at Chamberlain vs. Churchill for a good example. Then we have Carter weaken the hell out of the US, Reagan builds us up. Clinton tears it down, Bush is building it back up. Yes, Clinton tore it down for all you Clinton fans. Y2k and the tech boom along with the boom of day trading is what created our prosperity back then, not Bill the shlongmeister Clintonista. USS Cole, US Embassy bombed, and the first attack on the trade centers, all under Clinton. What did he do? NOTHING! He sent our guys into get slaughtered by sending too few, in Somalia and other areas. None of that got blamed on him, yet Bush comes along and stands up for your right to defend ourselves and you all get bent out of shape. It is understandable though. I mean afterall, most of you small brained liberals have forgotten about 9/11. Ann Coalter is right - "for liberals, history starts this morning."

Bush will win in November and all you liberals can enjoy the further decay of your lost, no good, dying, rotting, never has been never will be anything but crap party known as the Demorcraps.

 

[ScottW]

Cat, I know why Sadam hates us, and why others hate us and it is not our fault. Sure, the orginal disagreement may be based off something we did, but the reaction is unjustified no matter how you look at it. If you honestly think we DESERVE 9/11 and other such actions, then I feel very sorry for you. Many nations piss one another off, but you don't see them jumping on planes and taking out each others citizens with them. Hell, if the U.S. and Russia acted like these terrorists, we would have nuced each other to hell in the 1980s and we would be blowing up building in France right now.

Your "US is the real evil" is typical leftist rhetoric that I could have taken right out of Sean Hannity's book, Deliver Us from Evil. You are ignorant to the fact that no matter what we do, others will hate us. If a country has a problem with us, then lets negotiate and come to an agreement. Yet if they avoid that course of action and instead attack us and kill us, then all diplomacy is out the window.

You also have forgotten about the 15 years that we used diplomacy in Iraq. UN weapons inspectors that were not given access to certain areas of Iraq, buildings that were off limits, resolutions that he broke, etc., etc. We put up with that for 15 years. Why do you think such a course was going to suddenly change for the better. You think 16 years is the gestation period for the birth of civility from a known terrorist regiem? I think anyone who backs their thinking with a good amount of logic would agree that his time should have been up a long time ago.

Your theory of appeasement and containment has never worked, EVER! Try looking at Chamberlain vs. Churchill for a good example. Then we have Carter weaken the hell out of the US, Reagan builds us up. Clinton tears it down, Bush is building it back up. Yes, Clinton tore it down for all you Clinton fans. Y2k and the tech boom along with the boom of day trading is what created our prosperity back then, not Bill the shlongmeister Clintonista. USS Cole, US Embassy bombed, and the first attack on the trade centers, all under Clinton. What did he do? NOTHING! He sent our guys into get slaughtered by sending too few, in Somalia and other areas. None of that got blamed on him, yet Bush comes along and stands up for your right to defend ourselves and you all get bent out of shape. It is understandable though. I mean afterall, most of you small brained liberals have forgotten about 9/11. Ann Coalter is right - "for liberals, history starts this morning."

Bush will win in November and all you liberals can enjoy the further decay of your lost, no good, dying, rotting, never has been never will be anything but crap party known as the Demorcraps.

 

[brianleahy]

I thought you took your ball and bat and went home?

I should have; I SO should have. I have way too much to do today to spend it all here.

Most people might say that the most devastating thing to religious faith would be to prove the non-existence of God. I would disagree: I think it would be far more devastating to prove that there IS a God, but that he doesn't give a flying f*ck about humanity. This, frankly, is about where I am at, in my heart of hearts.

Let's follow this line of reasoning, and tell me if you disagree at any point:

God gives us free will

However, it seems to me that you are saying that God knows enough about each of us that He can predict, in advance, with total certainty - what decisions we will make based on free will.


God created each one of us, as well as each of our parents, and each of the people that will influence our lives.
God, being omniscient, also knows about every external circumstance that can possibly affect our lives.
Hence, it would appear to follow that nothing that happens to us, nor anything that any of us would ever do could conceivably surprise God.

Most religions hold that God rewards us for doing certain things, and punishes us for doing others

Therefore, God knows before we are born whether we'll be going to heaven or hell, at which point he COULD elect NOT to create us, or could create us differently if he so wished, or else (being omnipotent) could alter the circumstances of our lives so that we would unerringly make the decisions that would land us in heaven.

I thus conclude that, if all of the foregoing is true, if anyone ever goes to hell, it means God really couldn't care less what happens to us.

EDIT: Furthermore, unless you believe in reincarnation, the entire point of heaven and hell are kinda fuzzy; your destiny is set in advance, and once you're dead, you're done. It's not like you'll have some subliminal memory of fire & brimstone to keep you on the straight & narrow next time.

 

[Harvestr]

Thx

I just know that I am not going to risk my own life and the life of all Americans on whether or not we can make a terrorist like us. If they want to treaten us with random attacks that kill our people and that we have little defense against, then it is our duty as Zell Miller says (one of the few high rank liberals that has a brain) "to take the fight to our enemies and kill them before they kill us." That is our duty and if you don't understand that, it is your job to get out of our way.

 

[ScottW]

God gives us free will

However, it seems to me that you are saying that God knows enough about each of us that He can predict, in advance, with total certainty - what decisions we will make based on free will.

God created each one of us, as well as each of our parents, and each of the people that will influence our lives.
God, being omniscient, also knows about every external circumstance that can possibly affect our lives.
Hence, it would appear to follow that nothing that happens to us, nor anything that any of us would ever do could conceivably surprise God.

Most religions hold that God rewards us for doing certain things, and punishes us for doing others

Salvation is based on faith alone, not based upon words or deeds. There is no amount of money you can give to the church, there are not x number days you have to attend church to be saved. You are only saved based upon faith. The Bible clear says the path to heaven is narrow, but the path to destruction is wide. You can only get into heave based upon your faith.

THAT SAID... as a Christian we are rewarded with crowns when we go to heaven, based upon our works. This doesn't effect our ability to get through the gates, just what "rewards" we get in heaven. Of course, being the good servants that we are... instead of keeping those crowns, we turn around and give them back to Jesus, who paid the ultimate price so that we can have eternal life in heaven.

Therefore, God knows before we are born whether we'll be going to heaven or hell, at which point he COULD elect NOT to create us, or could create us differently if he so wished, or else (being omnipotent) could alter the circumstances of our lives so that we would unerringly make the decisions that would land us in heaven.

I thus conclude that, if all of the foregoing is true, if anyone ever goes to hell, it means God really couldn't care less what happens to us.

Brian, in your example above, you do away with free will, and you create just exactly the type of person you don't want to be... no free will. If God strictly created based upon future outcome, then you have what you seem to disagree think God is now... with predestination. So your above example conflicts with your previous thoughts/statements.

That said.. God does care about what happens to us. Why did 4000 years of the creation of many, did God send His only Son, Jesus to not only live in the same body we do, but to die on a cross (willingly, he was God he didn't need too) as the ultimate blood sacrifice for yours and I sins. To me, that is ultimate love. How many people would honestly give there life to save yours? Very few.

EDIT: Furthermore, unless you believe in reincarnation, the entire point of heaven and hell are kinda fuzzy; your destiny is set in advance, and once you're dead, you're done. It's not like you'll have some subliminal memory of fire & brimstone to keep you on the straight & narrow next time.

Again, your destiny issue is in conflict. I hope you are able to resolve this issue in your head. Anyhow... since we have the choice to either believe or not to believe... that alone (nothing else) decides on your outcome... heaven or hell. There are no levels... just two places.

What most people don't realize... is that their soul is eternal. Your soul will never die, it will continue to live on for eternity... either burning in hell (and yes, you will know that you made the decision not to believe) or going to heaven... and which you can enjoy eternity with your creator.

Scott

 

[brianleahy]

Now now, let's stay on track here. I understand faith, and works, and so on. I don't actually happen to believe in any of it, but I have no expectation or intention of trying to convert you to my way of thinking. If you're sincerely interested in 'my way of thinking', I can point you to my blog, in which I have discussed it all at considerable length. ( http://homepage.mac.com/brianleahy/iblog/C1679595315/E1322795891/index.html )

But anyway, the only reason I even entered this discussion - against my better judgment - is that you, yourself, seem to have created a contradiction within the scope of your posts here on the board. You may not put any stock in MY arguments, but in this case I am only trying to point out what seems a clear conflict between two of YOUR OWN arguments.

So then: what is free will? It seems to me that, for our purposes here, free will is the ability of a human to do things that may not conform to God's will. If you'd like to sharpen this point a bit, please do.

Next, consider this exerpt from your very own post:

though you are free to make your own decisions, God fore-knew the decisions you would make... even before you where created.

First: does this include whether or not you're going to have Faith?

Second: I would like to hear your answer as to exactly how this differs from predestination - or as the scientific community calls it, determinism. This is the notion that, given sufficient knowledge of the prevailing conditions prior to an event, the outcome of the event can be predicted with total certainty. If human behavior is deterministic, then God, possessing ALL knowledge, should logically be able to predict every single event, including those resulting from the exercise of free will.

Still, being able to predict something is, I will concede, not the same as controlling it. Yet if you believe that God creates human souls, it seems to me not unlike writing a computer program: you aren't actually 'controlling' it in real-time while it's running, but you did design it from the outset to behave a certain way, so that it's behavior is highly predictable. If a program does something unexpected, we don't call it 'free will' -- we call it a bug.

Of course, you can certainly INTENTIONALLY write a program to behave in an unpredictable way, but if you do that, it'd be awfully petty of you to want to "punish" the program for NOT doing what you wanted.

And while I'm thinking of it, it seems to me that if we accept the heaven & hell concept, does it really make sense to say that the gift of 'free will' is really a greater "act of love" than a guaranteed ticket to heaven would be? If I'm spending eternity burning and screaming, am I going to be thinking: "Well, at least God loved me enough to let me cook my own goose this way..." Free will for 70 to 80 years vs. the chance of an eternity of torment. Hmmm.

But I digress. To return to an earlier post of yours:

God is in control and ALL THINGS work toward the Glory of God... even those things we might deem bad.

Do I even have to point out the problem here? Read your quote there, and tell me how that squares with free will.

Finally, if ALL THINGS work toward the Glory of God-- then that means sin is a myth, and that it's actually impossible to defy God's will -- He's always two steps ahead of you. This being so, every single person is doing God's work whether they realize it or not, and so all deserve a reward.

Either we are transparent to God, or we aren't. Which is it?

 

[ScottW]

So then: what is free will? It seems to me that, for our purposes here, free will is the ability of a human to do things that may not conform to God's will. If you'd like to sharpen this point a bit, please do.

Hmm.. sounds like what I have been saying. So, yea, it's fine.

Next, consider this excerpt from your very own post:

"though you are free to make your own decisions, God fore-knew the decisions you would make... even before you where created."

First: does this include whether or not you're going to have Faith?

Yep.

Second: I would like to hear your answer as to exactly how this differs from predestination - or as the scientific community calls it, determinism. This is the notion that, given sufficient knowledge of the prevailing conditions prior to an event, the outcome of the event can be predicted with total certainty. If human behavior is deterministic, then God, possessing ALL knowledge, should logically be able to predict every single event, including those resulting from the exercise of free will.

Yep, God can.

Still, being able to predict something is, I will concede, not the same as controlling it. Yet if you believe that God creates human souls, it seems to me not unlike writing a computer program: you aren't actually 'controlling' it in real-time while it's running, but you did design it from the outset to behave a certain way, so that it's behavior is highly predictable. If a program does something unexpected, we don't call it 'free will' -- we call it a bug.

Of course, you can certainly INTENTIONALLY write a program to behave in an unpredictable way, but if you do that, it'd be awfully petty of you to want to "punish" the program for NOT doing what you wanted.

If you can compare every cell in your body to a computer program, then I guess that is your own problem. Although Im not always great at analogies (admittedly so) this one doesn't help you out. You need a better one. I won't spend time with that one.

And while I'm thinking of it, it seems to me that if we accept the heaven & hell concept, does it really make sense to say that the gift of 'free will' is really a greater "act of love" than a guaranteed ticket to heaven would be? If I'm spending eternity burning and screaming, am I going to be thinking: "Well, at least God loved me enough to let me cook my own goose this way..." Free will for 70 to 80 years vs. the chance of an eternity of torment. Hmmm.[/QUOTE[

You just might think that I suppose. I shouldn't want to take the chance to test out that theory. Of course, my ticket to heaven is already established, it is impossible for me to not g now.

To return to an earlier post of yours:

"God is in control and ALL THINGS work toward the Glory of God... even those things we might deem bad."

Do I even have to point out the problem here? Read your quote there, and tell me how that squares with free will.

You have free will, that means you can choose to do what you want. (Ref: your definition above). Okay, so let's say that your driving down the road and you get in a car wreck. It is a bad crash, you live, but you loose a leg and an arm (it was a bad crash). Many people will say, "How could GOD allow this to happen?" Yet, through all your pain and agony God might use that (again, he didn't impose it on you) as a way for you to come into a life saving relationship with Him.

Finally, if ALL THINGS work toward the Glory of God-- then that means sin is a myth, and that it's actually impossible to defy God's will -- He's always two steps ahead of you. This being so, every single person is doing God's work whether they realize it or not, and so all deserve a reward.

Either we are transparent to God, or we aren't. Which is it?

It is not impossible to defy God's will. I do it every day.

It is God's will that we not sin, yet we do. It is God's will that we go out and tell the world about Jesus... regretfully, I am not the best at doing that. Many more things are God's will... but doesn't mean we follow it.

 

[ScottW]

On a side note:

God first created the angels. God's top dog in the angelic world was Lucifer. Apparently he is very beautiful. Lucifer was like God's best bud (of sorts) and was responsible for many high level things in the angelic world. He came up with this brain child idea that angels have no free will and turned against God and 1/3 of all the angels followed suit. So God band them from heaven. For those who may not know, Lucifer is Satan, demons are fallen angels.

So... I like to think of this world as a big court case. God is proving to Lucifer that not only the angels have free will, but we as humans do as well. This boils down the first thing that Lucifer tells Adam & Even in the Garden.

Here it goes:

1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "
4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

Interestingly, satan uses a "half-truth" in his attempt to get Eve to eat the fruit of the tree. "You will not surely die." Eve, nor Adam died that day, physically. But spiritually they did die. They also died later in life, physically. If they hadn't eaten, then they would have lived forever.

I think guesstimates are that it was less than 24 hours after Adam/Eve where created that they ate of the tree. Go FREE WILL.