Respecting each other

You cannot possible interpret "publicly airing their personal problems" as calling someone stupid.

Given that this is the internet, and users often have many online personalities, how can any of us really know who it is we're insulting?

Look at the so called insults - you'll find they're most often used in a school playground i.e. by people who have no real idea of the problems/personalities of the "insultee"

Which is why I mentioned the power thing. No-one (sensible) could possibly be insulted by Hulkaros inference that they're stupid - it's just his opinion and his perhaps childish way of arguing.

So why don't you let people of all intellects, not just well educated adults, post here.

And before you ask or I get flamed, I'm a qualified accountant with a degree in Engineering.
 
Feel free to edit/remove my posts. I know I've been a bit aggressive lately in some threads. Never without reason, I guess, but still: I don't mind if you decide what's gonna have to be EDited. ;)
 
As much as a dislike censorship (in general), I have to fully support Ed's actions here. I had been commenting to friends for some weeks now that I felt things were degenerating on the forum, but I was hoping things would improve. I don't think it is necessary for people to be insulting when debating. Surely we should be interested in learning from both facts and the opinions of others, and not so much be interested in "winning," and that is why we are here on this forum?

The other thing, which I see as being highly important, is that I felt some posts, but not all (nor am I saying everyone who has been "reprimanded" is guilty of this! ;)), had degenerated to such a degree that little or nothing of value was being contributed to the discussion. There were times I didn't feel some posts of the posts could be called "passionate," only aggressive and condescending. Hence, to me, the censorship was not obscuring views or factual information, only removing the recent "venom" from the forum.

The amount of work involved in moderating the forums seems to have become quite large recently, especially with the sheer quantity of text! Also, I think the decision to suspend the threads and force everyone to take stock of the situation was not an easy one to make, but I'm glad you did this, Ed.
 
one last thing for now - verbal emotional abuse is one of the major contributions to depression, low self esteem and other personal problems related to mental illnesses. if i can help reduce it in just this one place at this point in time, then i can go to bed at night feeling good about myself despite the verbal abuse heaped upon me for doing it.
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I've been hanging around on this site for over a year and half now. I'm pretty respectful of others' opinions and like to think that comes through in my posts (most of the time). However, the recent censorship on this board seems ultra anal to me. Some of it is warranted, but most of it over reaching. And if I have to hear Ed go on and on about "using Netscape benefits AOL" business one more time, I'm gonna lose it. Why not spread the gospel about who the use of IE benefits, Ed?

There was a time when this site was lively, interesting, and full of colorful personalities. Not so much anymore. A lot of it can be attributed to OS X becoming more mainstream in the Mac ecosystem, a lot of has to do with lively personalities dropping off (SimX - where did you go?), but even more of it, I feel, has to do with the whining from the moderators.

Sorry Ed. But if you are losing sleep over the behavior of some on these boards, it's time to get a hobby in the real world, and stop worrying about meaningless things like the tone of chatter on these boards.

So I'm dropping off. I'm not really doing this in protest, but more of disgust. I just don't have time to contribute my thoughts to big brother esque forums where the moderator is so sensitive to words that he's losing sleep at night. I don't want to hurt your feelings Ed, but you are coming across as bedwetter. I'm sure that will get edited out, but I think it needed to be said (if only for your eyes).

For those of you here that still wish to converse with moi, I can be found on AIM (serpicolugnut), and over at www.osxfactor.com, or over at www.serpicolugnut.com. Hope to hear from those worth conversing with.
 
Originally posted by serpicolugnut

Sorry Ed. But if you are losing sleep over the behavior of some on these boards, it's time to get a hobby in the real world, and stop worrying about meaningless things like the tone of chatter on these boards.
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i do not think such things are as meaningless as they look at first! it might seem that Ed is over-reacting but the point is that a sarcastic comment from some1 may lead to a personal debate where each one posts 2 pages long replies, trying to prove how much smarter he is than any1 else in this forum. we all have different experiences, and some know more things than others. but that should not matter! lets not try to prove to everyone how much intelligent we all are and just simply discuss our oponinios, without insulting ppl we do not agree with :)
 
said by 17 yo stealth
lets not try to prove to everyone how much intelligent we all are and just simply discuss our oponinios, without insulting ppl we do not agree with
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and that folks, is all i'm asking for. :)
 
Originally posted by Ed Spruiell
and that folks, is all i'm asking for. :)
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it's not as easy as all that. when you say someone is wrong, it all comes down to attacking their perception of things, ie, their opinions. just follow the course of any argument to find out what happens next.
 
Just to add my 2cents to the mess on the floor...

Personally I enjoy and encourage abuse of my person. It's a little twisted but don't get all weirded out - I'm not creepy about it or anything. I just find it entertaining. I 'spose I have a little blue-haired troll for a heart, with sticky-upy hair and a plastic button nose.

Anyway, I think the real point here is a matter of personal or 'ad hominem' attacks versus the attacking of ideas. It is not equivalent to say an idea is stupid and an idea is flawed.

1. Saying that an idea is stupid infers that the holder of this idea is stupid. Ideas can't be 'stupid' in any sense - they can only be wrong, or erroneous, or flawed...etc. People or actions are stupid.

2. Saying an idea is flawed is to infer that the idea has fundamental problems with its facts or reasoning.

See the difference? It's not directly stating that Mr.X is 'stupid', just indicating it through semantics under the guise of critical discourse. Now I don't think all of Ed's examples are good ones (some are in fact debates of point instead of character), but he has the right idea. When 'arguements' constitute attacks of character they aren't valid or worth consideration.

Sorry, I was a logic student for a while. Go get em Ed!
 
well its obvious ed has thin skin if he needs an airconditioner in san diego ;)

maybe in El Cajon, but in san diego? cmon ed, you suck! :p ;)

San Diego is one fine place to live and i dont want to move, although i might have to :eek:

oh and back to this...

umm you can easily debate something without bringing it to personal attacks, its called tact and respect, i reccomend more of it for some users here ;)
 
"You're wrong! I hate you!" :p

I've never had a problem with flaming people on the board. :D At least, I don't remember one... I try to respect others' opinions to the best of my ability. I've learned that the best way to deal with people that are... hard to deal with, is to just leave them to their own devices, rather than to provoke them.

R-E-S-P-E-C-T...
 
Ed, i know you're probably catching a lot of flak for this thread, not to mention your recent stance on flaming around here.

just want you to know you have my full support.

discussion is discussion. insults have nothing to do with it.

and anyone bringing up Ed's own views on AOL/Moz are grasping at straws. and if Ed was so gestapo in his views & modding, there would be no Moz discussion here. which is obviously NOT the case.

so lay off Ed, people. he's just doing his job. be civil to each other. that's all he asks.
 
Originally posted by Shifting

so lay off Ed, people. he's just doing his job. be civil to each other. that's all he asks.
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Agreed. Whether rightly or wrongly, I have the impression the forums have become more aggressive in recent weeks, and this is not necessary to the discussions.
 
Nice "PC" comment there...

So, you people who want Ed to continue as is, why not just go straight to Apple's website and read the marketing info. Or maybe go wild and read some Dell marketing info.

Because eventually, if Ed keeps up, we'll all just be able to post nice sterile little corporate soundbites and facts, not opinions.

I thought using Apples meant having a brain and using it, not just being sheep and following the PC crowd. So if we're independent thinkers, we must also be able to freely express our opinions.

And sometimes opinions cannot be backed up by facts. At that stage, are we to just say, "OK, we'll agree to disagree, let's not post any more on this subject"? Surely that would make for a dull debate, and worse for Ed/MacOSX, a dull board.

And Ed, at what stage does something become an insult, capable of causing "emotional distress"? I've never heard anything so ridiculous in my life! Do you really think that users of this board might somehow be mentally scarred from an adverse post? Is my calling PC users "sheep" an insult or an observation? Tell me a better (more politically correct) way to put it. You're on a slippery slope to giving yourself a lot more work, alienating users and abusing your status.

The BBC, which most regard as the epitome of broadcasting quality, has a remit to "Inform, Educate & Entertain". This forum used to do the same. It's rapidly losing its entertainment value, and if this censorship goes on, it will also lose its education value. All it will be is somewhere to read requoted marketing material.

For goodness sake, Ed, don't help Microsoft win! I only bought an iMac after visiting here - I was a PC user till 6 months ago. I got sick of Bill's control freakery (activation, spyware, Palladium etc) and thought switching to Apple and debating with its users would be a breath of fresh air. PC users know Mac users get hot under the collar, and are notorious flamers, and this is one of the reasons to switch i.e. to find out what all the fuss is about.

So let this board show people Apple users in their element, confidently telling others why they're wrong!
 
Originally posted by Ed Spruiell
these are just a few of the possible examples i could use and all pulled from 2 threads.

if anybody has a better solution speak up now. i'm open to suggestions. but frankly i have never liked when people put each other down.
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Ed I think you are going above and beyond the duty as a moderator.

Look, it's one thing if someone cusses you out or calls you a derogatory comment THAT is a racial slur, a slur about your sexuality. That is grounds for censoring. It is also grounds if you do something like smear a person's name with something unrelated or say something slanderous that could damage a person's reputation severely.

People should be allowed to comment about the validity, the experience, and the absurdity of some of the posts on here. They should be able to question the credentials of people whose opinions are not quite factual. That is what forums are about and we are all adults.

Look, you said it yourself, some people tend to think they know more than anyone else on this board. That is typical among men and among computer literates. They get cocky and arrogant and that's just a part of the culture.

If I said someone was smoking their mom's crack again. See that's just wrong. However, I do not feel that justifies pulling a thread.

If someone says "hey i saw you doing *this illegal or morally questionable activity* the other day" that is slander and should be pulled. it is a fine line and I think you should approach the moderator position as an editor of a Newspaper. This is a forum and is not much different than an editorial column. Approach it from that angle. Think "What would get us sued if we were a newspaper?" and then let that be your guide.
 
Originally posted by terran74
Ed I think you are going above and beyond the duty as a moderator.

... Approach it from that angle. Think "What would get us sued if we were a newspaper?" and then let that be your guide.
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we really appreciate ur guide, and ur ideas of approaching things from a certain angle, BUT Eds responsibilities are very clear. The Forum has RULES. if someone does not obey these rules it is Eds job to make sure that his post is edited. and to warn him so that it he does not repeat the same mistake!

rules help us live our lives easier. this is a MAC NEWS AND RUMORS DISCUSSUON FORUM. if ppl keep on takin things personally then the forum loses its sense and threads end up closing.
it is in our own advantage to help Ed with his duty :)
 
Originally posted by terran74
Ed I think you are going above and beyond the duty as a moderator.
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thanks :)
Look, it's one thing if someone cusses you out or calls you a derogatory comment THAT is a racial slur, a slur about your sexuality. That is grounds for censoring. It is also grounds if you do something like smear a person's name with something unrelated or say something slanderous that could damage a person's reputation severely.
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agreed, these things obviously will not be tolerated here
People should be allowed to comment about the validity, the experience, and the absurdity of some of the posts on here. They should be able to question the credentials of people whose opinions are not quite factual.
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again i agree, but there are ways of doing this that do not belittle the other person. i'll repeat myself - show them, don't tell them. or simply present a different point of view without attacking theirs. if you want to "question" someone's credentials, then ask them about them or simply state you don't believe them. you're entitled to not believe everything posted here. in fact, i would hope you would be 'critical' enough to not just accept things at face value. but there are ways to do this that conform to site policy, and ways that don't. if the world hasn't taught someone social skills, then perhaps they will pick up a few here. ;)
That is what forums are about and we are all adults.
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this seems to be a common misconception. we aren't all adults here. we have many members under the age of 18. in fact, we have many under the age of 15. don't assume your audience is just like you.
Look, you said it yourself, some people tend to think they know more than anyone else on this board. That is typical among men and among computer literates. They get cocky and arrogant and that's just a part of the culture.
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agreed again. but once more, there are ways to express that which are acceptable and some that aren't.
If I said someone was smoking their mom's crack again. See that's just wrong. However, I do not feel that justifies pulling a thread.
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i don't recall ever pulling, or even closing, a thread because of a single comment. only when people start to feed off of each others flames do things like this happen.
If someone says "hey i saw you doing *this illegal or morally questionable activity* the other day" that is slander and should be pulled. it is a fine line and I think you should approach the moderator position as an editor of a Newspaper. This is a forum and is not much different than an editorial column. Approach it from that angle. Think "What would get us sued if we were a newspaper?" and then let that be your guide.
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interesting you should use that analogy as i was a newspaper editor for 7 years of my life. but i'm not as concerned with being sued as i am with maintaining a civil discussion of the issues. i am as capable of all out flaming as anyone here yet i manage to adhere to the guidelines that the admin of this site has set forth. it's that simple. there will always be two different approaches to this issue. there will those who won't come here if we allow aggression as well as those who won't visit if we are too polite. the admin of this site has chosen to cater to the former. if you don't like this, you are free to leave. There are plenty of other resources for participation in character attacks. please, take advantage of them. :)
 
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