the answer to the Tablet PC
- Thread starter malexgreen
- Start date
KrinkleCut
crispy subgenius
Actually, I don't think you have.
Unlike having them on my computer now?
Instead worrying about freezes and battery time and software updates and losing my stylus. Much better. Increased cost is a real bonus too - but that's what student loans are for, right? And hey, what's the difference between $10 for a paper pad and pack of pens and a few thousand?
Like I said before, who cares if I have this on my tablet if I don't have time to look at them and organize them during class? If you have to do it after class anyway what's better about this than doing it on my laptop?
And this relates to a touch screen how? Can't I do this on an iBook?
Perhaps I should have been more clear. How does a tablet pc convince me to part with my money, assuming, for the sake of argument I am a student? Why do I need to pay a premium for the features inherent in a tablet pc over a 'conventional' laptop/handheld or desktop/handheld combination? No need to throw in reasons/benefits that are covered by one of these two combinations, only reasons/benefits that are unable to be addressed by either combination.
Then, taking these, you need to examine the cost/benefit difference and argue that, yes, there is enough here to make it worth my money. So far I have only seen one argument for the student to get a tablet pc over the previously mentioned combinations:
- you only have to enter your notes once because of the handwriting recognition
So, is that it? Is it worth the premium? I'd say no. I'd take the extra cash and get an iPod.
Well, I didn't say this, but I agree with him. We are talking about computers here, not blenders. In five years there will be software that will not run, hardware that will not interface, etc. Will it cease to function? No. If it WERE a blender, it would still be deemed useful. Computers become 'obsolete' because they are not sold to consumers with a predetermined feature set - they CAN access the internet, they CAN do video editing, they CAN run the holodeck (etc. Ad nauseum) IF the hardware and software support it. Blenders just blend. Until they stop blending.
KrinkleCut
crispy subgenius
Originally posted by jeb1138
Well, you asked for it so here's a link: http://www.kentdisplays.com/.ChLCD, my friend. Reflective LCD technology which only uses energy when it needs to be changed. Exactly what I was talking about -- won't hurt your eyes and won't drain hardly any battery power (compared to normal LCD's). Granted, I really don't know if it is ready for primetime today but it's available now a with the type of technology that would be perfect for ebooks, in my opinion.
That's what I think Apple's answer should be -- touchscreen lcd tablet-sized device that would be useful and much better than the alternative.
I think we're saying the same thing in different ways. I'm arguing that the current crop of Tablet PCs are flawed in that they have no benefits large enough to make me (or other 'average' computer users) want one over anything else. You're saying they should alter the concept to include a more advanced technology (kinda like digital paper from the looks of it - very cool-sounding stuff) so that it you would want one.
Might I want one if it had this? I'd have to see it to be sure, but maybe. If the actual qualities of the paper and ink medium were more closely emulated, the convenience might be warranted.
Would I necesarily want it to be a touch screen? Unless the OS significantly changes the way I interact with it, I think a mouse and keyboard is a more efficient, more flexible option. I type faster than I write and I don't have to move my hand so far when operating a mouse, than if I have to move a stylus.
Of course, it could be I'm just an old fuddy duddy who can't dance with the new kids.
You're not getting it. You don't have to look at your notes and organize them during class. The Tablet PC recognizes your handwriting in the background without you needing to convert it for searching or organization. You can search your notes directly while keeping them in ink form.
RE: Battery life -
3.5 to 4 hours should be enough for a class. If not, Electrovaya makes a Tablet PC that will run for 10 to 16 hours.
Yes you can do this on an iBook now, but you can't easily do the seamless notetaking and diagramming on the iBook.
The Tablet PC is more powerful/versatile than a handheld. Plus, it could replace either of the above combinations itself, meaning you could potentially pay a premium to use either of the above combinations over the Tablet PC, especially if you are talking about Mac laptops/desktops.
Why bother with an iPod when the Tablet PC is capable of storing a lot more tunes?
I know this hasn't convinced you, but I don't have much time. You can go to http://www.microsoft.com/tabletpc for more info. Besides, if you want convincing, just go to Office Depot or someplace where you can try a display model for an extended period of time.
I have to go for now due to a storm. Will post later.
RE: Obsolecence -
The fact that newer models of the Tablet PC or software upgrades will appear, still does not diminish the utility of the features you currently use. Just like you don't automatically chuck the iBook you purchased just because Apple decides to intoduce a newer model, most people won't rid themselves of their Tablet PC as long as it is useful for them. They can still take handwritten notes, use speech recognition, and do many other things. And, since it is a full PC, they can also easily upgrade to new versions of Windows.
onegoodpenguin
i am fish.
Whoever said, "why bother with the iPod when the tablet will hold more tunes," I really hope I don't need to answer that. But just in case: It fits in my pocket.
As a student at Western Michigan University (I don't know if anyone else here is qualified to speak from the perspective of a student), I use my iBook daily to take notes in every single one of my classes. No, I don't currently have any math classes requiring the entries of equations, but for normal notes I use Microsoft Word X or OmniGraffle. When I need more room to work, I pull out a notebook and pen. Honestly, I think my setup is BETTER than the tablet PC. I got my iBook so that I'd no longer have to hunch over my notes while I wrote. I have the screen angled so that I can sit comfortably and see the instructor, the instructor's display, and my laptop without moving my head. I also record many lectures using the iBook. I don't see what's so exciting about 1600 dollars for a tablet PC, I really don't.
As a student at Western Michigan University (I don't know if anyone else here is qualified to speak from the perspective of a student), I use my iBook daily to take notes in every single one of my classes. No, I don't currently have any math classes requiring the entries of equations, but for normal notes I use Microsoft Word X or OmniGraffle. When I need more room to work, I pull out a notebook and pen. Honestly, I think my setup is BETTER than the tablet PC. I got my iBook so that I'd no longer have to hunch over my notes while I wrote. I have the screen angled so that I can sit comfortably and see the instructor, the instructor's display, and my laptop without moving my head. I also record many lectures using the iBook. I don't see what's so exciting about 1600 dollars for a tablet PC, I really don't.
I said ,"Why bother with the iPod." in reference to the guy's statement about cost.
Basically, if you already have a computer capable of performing the same functions as the iPod (and more), and you're going to be using it during class anyway, an iPod just adds to the cost.
If he were really a cash-strapped college student, he'd probably make due with what he had if it provided the same functionallity, or he'd get an mp3 player that stored more than the iPod yet costs less.
If on one hand, he's arguing about paying a premium for the Tablet PC, how can he then justify paying a premium for an mp3 player?
If cost were not a factor (or the primary factor), getting the iPod (or anything else) would come down to a simple matter of preference. In which case, you get what you want no matter the cost, making several of the above arguments moot.
Basically, if you already have a computer capable of performing the same functions as the iPod (and more), and you're going to be using it during class anyway, an iPod just adds to the cost.
If he were really a cash-strapped college student, he'd probably make due with what he had if it provided the same functionallity, or he'd get an mp3 player that stored more than the iPod yet costs less.
If on one hand, he's arguing about paying a premium for the Tablet PC, how can he then justify paying a premium for an mp3 player?
If cost were not a factor (or the primary factor), getting the iPod (or anything else) would come down to a simple matter of preference. In which case, you get what you want no matter the cost, making several of the above arguments moot.
KrinkleCut
crispy subgenius
No, wrong again. What I am arguing is that the Tablet PCs are not any more effective (IMHO) than some less expensive options. Thus they are not worth the premium. IF I DID have the money (and was a stundent, which I am not) and wanted to spend it, I said that I would still not purchase a Tablet PC - I would go with a less expensive, and what I see to be an equally effective, option.
The only reason I mentioned the iPod (or any MP3 player) was it's how I figured a college student would want to blow the money he saved by going with a less expensive option. Only reason it's an iPod over anything else is this is a Mac forum. Feel free to substitute any brand name you prefer. Or put the money into your savings account. I don't care.
As to your other post...
WHO CARES if it's in my own handwriting? I can barely read my own writing anyway. Once my notes are in a word document, I can do anything you have mentioned.
Or does it do something else? Is there one of those Microsoft wizards that know what's best for me and organizes it for me too, magically knowing what my needs are and 'helping' me. Don't even get me started on wizards...
Perhaps you should read my comment about this again. Here, I'll try to make it more plain. I agree, it can still perform the functions that it did when first purchased. Of course. However, as new technologies arise, any computer available before these new technologies has a chance of not being able to utilize them. Not all, mind you, but some. For example, Airport. I cannot install an Airport card in my Rev.B iMac because there is no airport slot present. Still with me? Good.
Now, as time passes, the number of new technologies that cannot be utilized on your computer increase. Computer uses and needs evolve. From word processing to desktop publishing, etc, we find new ways of using computers. Eventually, you will reach a point where your computer's hardware cannot meet your needs (because of computing power limitations or interfaces). Can it still perform it's original tasks? Yes. Does it meet your needs? No. Therefore it has been rendered 'obsolete'. My blender blends and that's all I can do with it until it breaks. It is not obsolete. Just broken.
This holds true with software as well. If I can install XP on a 486/66, does that make it useable? Can I now make it a station for rendering my 3D work? According to you, all it seems I to need to do is install a new OS. But hardware is the reason that this doesn't work (and why you're not writing on your screen instead of using a mouse and keyboard). My requirements for my computer change as new ways to use them become available. That's what it means for a computer to to become 'obsolete'. As for the 5 year time frame you cited:
1. Wasn't mine.
2. It was a 'guesstimate' to illustrate a point. Relax. You might get 6.
All clear?
And, just because I feel the need to address this too - it ties in with the previous discussion. Does the touchscreen display on a TabletPC change my needs enough to compell me to get a new computer? Is this the feature that I've needed that makes my current system 'obsolete'? No. I can do what I need to without it for now. Possibly forever. Any benefits it may have (and I think those are few) are negated by cost. THAT's my argument.
See above.
[edit]PS. sorry about the length of this thread. I seem to be chasing my own tail here.[/edit]
This is the problem. Effectiveness of the platform is highly subjective. I'll just agree to disagree on this, and say that I believe there is a sizable market for the product, especially due to the availability of a convertable form factor (I think this will eventually replace the standard PC notebook). Naturally, there will be disagreements on the overall value of the platform due to differences in the ways people use computers. As more software becomes available, I think the platform's value will become more evident.
Also, as I said previously, if you really want to gauge the effectiveness of the platform (or lack thereof), you should try it out in person. You may even still be able to go to a launch event in your area (though most are probably over) http://www.tabletpcevent.com/
This is largely Apple's fault for having non-upgradable hardware (especially on a desktop) . On a PC laptop, something like this could be supported through the PC Card slot. But, in non-specific terms, when purchasing a non-desktop machine, I'd take into account the long-term possibilities of the system. In TPCs case, I don't think it's any worse than other laptops, which should last quite a while unless you plan on running the all the latest 3D FPS for the next 5 years. In this case, I wouldn't bother with any laptop unless I could afford to upgrade it about every two years. Productivity apps generally don't require that much power. You can still run those on 400 mhz laptops. And, as yet, there hasn't been anything to warrant an upgrade from ~800Mhz other than games.
I wouldn't generally buy a laptop for heavy tasks like 3D work. This is better done and more economical with a desktop. If I just had to do this on a laptop, I wouldn't use a Tablet PC for this either unless it came with an NVIDIA Quadro Go.
For the software most people use (Office, Email, Photoshop, Web, etc.), the Tablet PC should still perform well in 5 years. This stuff doesn't come close to needing the Ghz processors that are currently available (except maybe for speeding up some PS filters/effects).
Crystal. Let me just add that MS has been very good about maintaining backward compatability. Due to the way they build their software, they can change and upgrade application interfaces many times while maintaining the same or a different, but compatable interface to hardware. DX is one example of this, and to a greater extent, Windows itself.
I accept this, but maintain that others may not feel the same way. Again, this is highly subjective. To each, his own.
cfleck
tired
i dont understand why i would need a tablet pooter for note taking.
if equations and odd type are your issue, learn latex
in the rare occasion that i need to draw a picture i'll just reference my drawing and do it by hand on paper. people wont study from their pooter anyway. they'll print out what they type.
if equations and odd type are your issue, learn latex
in the rare occasion that i need to draw a picture i'll just reference my drawing and do it by hand on paper. people wont study from their pooter anyway. they'll print out what they type.
The whole point of this is giving the user an input method they don't have to learn. The machine should conform to the user.
Would you also prefer everyone learn graffitti rather than be offered actual, natural handwriting support such as (or better than) what's offered in devices like the Tablet PC, the Pocket PC, or even the Newton, and software such as inkwell and Windows handwriting recognition? If so, not everyone will see this as a viable option.
Also, I think many people would study from their computer if they could carry it around like a book and read/write on it where most comfortable, instead of having to stare at a monitor in a fixed position all day.
In any case, for those that are still interested, the archived webcast of the launch is now up. (128 and 256 kbps Windows Media streams)
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/tabletpc/keynote.asp
Enjoy (or not)
cfleck
tired
good points. i'm a cs student and it is desireable for me to know latex for writing up research papers and the like, so it is becoming almost second nature to me. thinking about it, it is rather naive to ask the casual user to learn something as off-beat as latex.
i still dont agree with studying from your computer however. maybe it is just me, but after a while, it becomes uncomfortable to read large abounts of anything from a computer screen. something about looking at a light forever...
i still dont agree with studying from your computer however. maybe it is just me, but after a while, it becomes uncomfortable to read large abounts of anything from a computer screen. something about looking at a light forever...
Thanks, I'm also a CS student.
I don't think you're alone in not wanting to study from your computer (though can that be helped if you're a programmer?
). But, I think it would be easier on a portable, portrait-formatted display compared to sitting at a desktop for long periods. Web browsing would probably be better, too.I'm not saying everyone should get a Tablet PC, but I do think it has benefits and may even attract new users (or better serve curent ones). For instance, other than the GUI, the keyboard and mouse are probably the biggest barriers for new users. This gives them something a bit more familiar, and they don't have to worry as much about not knowing how to type (most older users I know worried about this). They can be better eased into the computing experience. Using the stylus to point to things would probably be easier than figuring out the mouse. As they get used to things, they can work up to the more traditional input methods (if needed/desired). Of course, even the ease of use comparison could vary depending on the user. It's just something that's really subjective.
vanguard
Registered
It might be nice for classes. My use for something like this would be meetings. I'm in RTP, NC and I work with people in San Jose, CA every day. It would great if I could use a tablet PC as a whiteboard while I'm talking about approaches to a problem.
On a related topic, it really look like msft is driving this and that they are partnering with hardware guys to get it done. If aapl came out with an innovation/evolution like this everybody would be doing backflips. Let's try to be a *little* objective and give the kudos for pushing something different.
Vanguard
On a related topic, it really look like msft is driving this and that they are partnering with hardware guys to get it done. If aapl came out with an innovation/evolution like this everybody would be doing backflips. Let's try to be a *little* objective and give the kudos for pushing something different.
Vanguard
cfleck
tired
i had a feeling the bias comment would come sooner or later. personally, my bias is minimal. i dont even own a mac. i just want to. i primarily use linux, but for my 2nd computer i run win xp and work is all windows. i just think table pcs, as they are, are glorified pdas.
but there is some truth to the statement that if apple did something similar, this forum would be all about it. but i think that is primarily because it would be different that the current design. right now the design is basically a touch screen laptop with a slightly different case. the os on it isn't that unique nor does it offer any special features othere than the obvious. i'm willing to bet that if apple released their version, it would be something more.
but there is some truth to the statement that if apple did something similar, this forum would be all about it. but i think that is primarily because it would be different that the current design. right now the design is basically a touch screen laptop with a slightly different case. the os on it isn't that unique nor does it offer any special features othere than the obvious. i'm willing to bet that if apple released their version, it would be something more.
I totally agree that tablet PCs are not gonna do it for most people. They're bulky, they're fragile, and they do more than they should. Having everything including the kitchen sink really reduces usability. Like say I want to read an ebook or text file and maybe add margin notes to that book. I need a specialized OS and software to streamline the process. I don't need full fledged Windows to bog me down; thats what a desktop is for. I'd love one of these things to take notes, read, do artwork and write. I do not want excel. I do not want Windows. I do not want a docking station. I do not want tons of full fledged applications. I want a tablet that does what its design and form-factor allows me to do better than with a laptop.
That said I think its highly unlikely Apple will make a tablet... or atleast not as thy are right now. No, I think some sort of PDA or PDA-hybrid is in Apple's future. Smal and running a hybrid of OS X and probably larger than most PDAs.
That said I think its highly unlikely Apple will make a tablet... or atleast not as thy are right now. No, I think some sort of PDA or PDA-hybrid is in Apple's future. Smal and running a hybrid of OS X and probably larger than most PDAs.
cfleck
tired
that brings up an interesting idea. what about a glorified notebook? a unit with a touch screen that you can write/draw on and then go back and hook it up to your pooter to convert your notes into something more readable. maybe it could hold your old notes in text form so you could read em, but with a simple tap here or there you can edit them with your handwriting.
it seems that a unit like that would be lighter and less expensive, but still seemingly get the job done for this niche market. idunno.
it seems that a unit like that would be lighter and less expensive, but still seemingly get the job done for this niche market. idunno.
The problem I see is that the Tablet PC is a secondary PC. It won't replace your primary PC or notebook. And as such, it's too expensive (and can actually do too much).
I suggest the following main uses for a tablet. But I still rather call it a Pad:
Webbrowsing
E-Mail
Chat
Notes
PIM
The perfect candidate? A Sony CliéPad (as suggested on http://www.palminfocenter.com and http://macnews.net.tc ...
The CliéPad would be a Palm OS 5 device with a 800*600 (or rotated to 600*800) pixel device. Sony would only have to throw in a WiFi card, a good browser and E-Mail application, and the Pad would be ready to sell.
Think cheaper than a tablet PC.
Think much more battery life than a tablet PC.
Think companion to your desktop/notebook PC.
Maybe the size of a paperbook would really be great for the device.
I suggest the following main uses for a tablet. But I still rather call it a Pad:
Webbrowsing
Chat
Notes
PIM
The perfect candidate? A Sony CliéPad (as suggested on http://www.palminfocenter.com and http://macnews.net.tc ...
The CliéPad would be a Palm OS 5 device with a 800*600 (or rotated to 600*800) pixel device. Sony would only have to throw in a WiFi card, a good browser and E-Mail application, and the Pad would be ready to sell.
Think cheaper than a tablet PC.
Think much more battery life than a tablet PC.
Think companion to your desktop/notebook PC.
Maybe the size of a paperbook would really be great for the device.