Unacceptable

Well, socialist or not, or, to admit the polite distinction made by the CIA : living in a country that is "in the midst of transition, from an economy that featured extensive government ownership and intervention to one that relies more on market mechanisms", as the agency describes France (an economist could give just a reciprocal definition of the US economy, "in transition from and idealistic market mechanisms based economy to an extensive government intervention one", see agriculture issues, for instance!),
the fact is that Apple charge non-us customers a little bit more, but not always...

Talking taxes free (which is the case for me, I buy my machines from my company), a ibook 500 costs, in apple stores,

1199 US$ (1328€) in US,
1281 US$ (1899 Can$, 1348€) in Canada,
1263 US$ (1399€) in France,
1271 US$ (2048 CHF, 1407€) in Switzerland,
1232 US$ (1365€, 851£) in UK .
Taxes are a big part of the difference of the "real price", but the machines are still a little bit less expensive in Cupertino's country. Transport fees are not a issue, as this peculiar ibook is setup in Taipei, I think.
Marketing costs seem to be responsible of this small differences. But our canadian cousins are finally the most charged apple fans in this panel.

But most of all, this peculiar ibook costs, in the japanese apple store, 1166 US$, which is, I think, the lowest "tax free" price in all apple stores..., and 1526 US$ in Australia, which seems to be the most expensive country.
What do you think about that ?
 
testuser: you are correct on one thing, namely that we pay more in taxes than the average US citizen. As for calling us a socialist country I'm gonna have to say that you (again) don't know what you talking about. A socialist country is a country where the chief industries and natural ressources are owned and manages by the state or public body and wealth is equally distributed.
This has never been the case in Denmark, and just because you have been here doesn't mean that your statement is true. I'm sorry if I sound "angry" but as you can see I'm from Denmark and I don't like it when someone spreads wrong information. Sorry testuser but I' kind of touchy regarding my country.

ksv: I can only agree with completely. The reason for our higher taxes is so for example anyone can get an operation free and everyone has free medical care.
 
Actual prices may also have with the country's economy compared to others to do.
Right now, 1 USD is 8,35 NOK, which means the bottom-of-the-line iBook currently costs 1351 USD here without taxes. A couple of months ago, when an USD was about 9,1 NOK, it would've cost 1239 USD, because Apple don't change their prices as long as nothing major happens.

I don't think price differences have with advertisements to do. USA is, as far as I know, the only country with Apple TV ads. I've only seen one Norwegian Apple ad in my life; a full-page iMac advertisement in the local newspaper in 1998. That costs around 30000 USD. What does a 30 second ad on a major american TV station cost?
 
paragon wrote:
--------------------
testuser: please don't call our country a socialist country...obviously you have no idea of what you are talking about, we are and have never been a socialist country. We have been a democracy long before there was anything called the US.
---------------------

Hi Paragon:

1. socialism does not exclude democracy
2. What does the US have to do with our discussion?

Paragon, you may want to inform yourself regarding the meaning or "socialism":

In a broader sense, the term socialism is often used loosely to describe economic theories ranging from those that hold that only certain public utilities and natural resources should be owned by the state to those holding that the state should assume responsibility for all economic planning and direction. In the past 150 years there have been innumerable differing socialist programs. For this reason socialism as a doctrine is ill defined, although its main purpose, the establishment of cooperation in place of competition remains fixed.

I am German and live in Germany. Our current "ruling" party is the SPD (Socialist Party of Germany). This, however, does not mean that everything is owned by the government - nor does it mean that we strive to become a soviet-modelled nation... the thought of it is chilling.

We are a full-blown democracy with capitalism (free markets,....) combined with socialsm (greater well-fare, higher taxes,....) at our core.

- matthias
- pbmac
 
testuser: our government does not manage either of the industries you mention, although the railroad and the telephone was years ago. It's a complicated matter since they were companies who had to make a profit but if they didn't they were given money by the state so we would be able to take the train or make a telephone call.
I agree with you on subject of there being a sliding scale between socialist and capitalist. Therefore I will say that Danes do not see themselves as a purely capitalist country since we obviously have elements of socialism in our country.

pbmac: about the US issue, it was just a statement that had nothing to do with my initial question, this whole discussion has taken a wrong turn. I have no excuse fore bringing that into the discussion. My vanity got the best of me. :)
 
The average american's view at scandinavian countries is totally skewed. Some thinks we still use horses instead of tractors, and some thinks Denmark is a socialist regime. It's much the same thing.
In Norway, a country which is actually more on the "socialist" side than Denmark, the main telephone company, transport, entertainment centers etc. are supported by the State, but not fully owned. Hospitals are the counties' responsibility, schools the cities', but they are fully financed by the State. Poor/unemployed/invalid people get support from the State, but do of course not have nearly as good economy as average, working people.
Still, there are clear differences in people's wages. Leaders get far much more paid than normal employees, and there are hundreds of millionaires in Norway. Norway is not a socialist country, Denmark is even less (at least with the current government). Also, the parties' titles don't always describe the party's politics. E.g "Arbeiderpartiet", or "The Workers Party" in english, is actually more conservative than radical/socialistic.
 
Ok, it may not be the case with you guys, but americans tend to have a wrong idea of what Europe is.
Granted, I don't know much about differences among different US states, but at least I don't comment on them.

Do you know that the most common form of government in Scandinavian countries (and Europe for that matter) is monarchy?

In Italy for instance the State doesn't own practically anything.
Sure, we still have a party with the word "communist" in its name, but that doesn't mean anything.
We pay 19% taxes, and that still makes prices way too high.

It's all about marketing:

In the US the Mac is for the people: schools, etc.
In Europe is for professionals.

This needs to be readdressed.
 
Monarchy doesn't necessarily = government, but I take your point.

;)

You also make a good point with regards marketing. Macs are not recognised as educational or professional machines in the UK at all, they are still associated with "trendy" graphic design shops and the like.

Apple's marketing here does nothing to dispel that. We get the very occasional Apple commercial, which is just an American one, so there's no marketing cost there beyond buying the airtime!

In terms of taxes, import duty etc., machines bought in the UK always used to come from an assembly point in Ireland. I don't know about now, seeing as I haven't bought anything from Apple for 4 years, but you see what I'm saying.

We have VAT in the UK on computers, and this is rated at 17.5%. The socialist British government (that's a joke by the way) does not impose reams of taxation on Macs; Apple simply choose to charge what they charge. Why else do you think they have such massive cash reserves?

It's a shame, because in addition to the preconception re Apple users detailed above, even quite IT-literate people I talk to just assume that Macs cost a bomb, and cannot compete with PCs on any level. When I show the OS X specs to fellow programmers, they are always impressed though.

This is all down to a long history of little / badly targeted marketing here. Apple just always seem to preach to the converted, and charge us a premium for it.

I just don't understand why people jump on us European / Asia-Pac "whingers" and defend Apple. Sure, they're making money out of us and that's their right, all power to 'em, but it would be nice to be able to afford a new Mac... ;)
 
Yeah OK, but why do you keep on ignoring the fact that if I buy a Mac here in the UK it is not imported directly from the US... so what has the EU tariff you mention got to do with anything?

In fact, for setting up plants in Ireland, Apple would have received tax concessions and other benefits from Britain / the EU.

No-one's being "hostile," don't be so sensitive. We're just having a discussion about how annoying it is that Macs are more expensive in certain countries, together with Apple's naff marketing in territories outside of the US.
 
That's right, the Scandinavian governments are democratic, although we have king families. The only thing the king does here, anyway, is to market Norway and ensure good deals on fish export. E.g. large companies, and even other countries, are very proud to be visited by a king. So, practically, king families in Scandinavian democracies are only marketing channels. They have nothing to do with the government, they have no governing power at all. I'd be glad to get rid of them, they're wasting enormous resources we could've used on schools, hospitals etc instead.

So, a 100-250 $ difference isn't noticeable?

I'm not trying to be hostile, but saying european countries are socialistic is like saying USA is anarchistic.
 
Well, unfortunately, I don't see things changing too much. The U.S. just put a MASSIVE tariff on imported steel. Granted, other countries caused the problem by over-producing steel they couldn't use and then selling it BELOW COST to the U.S. to get rid of and to kill U.S. steel companies (aka "dumping"). Those countries did nothing to stop it. It's also true that in many of those countries, the wage is much lower than our wages. It's only now that our government is trying to do something about it. The problem is: It's too little, too late. All this will accomplish is keep the remaining U.S. steel businesses afloat for a few more years. At the same time, it makes European countries upset and will probably lead to more tariffs against the U.S. In short, don't blame Apple for the high prices... vote for candidates that support free trade. I'm behind the American worker, but the way that unions and industry lobby washington for special treatment so they can make more money goes too far sometimes.
 
testuser said "plus E.U. tariffs on goods imported outside of E.U. (varies between 5-14%)
10% -> $240"



just a quick reply as i am running out the door ....all european mac are made in Ireland (15 minutes from my house in fact...i worked there myself). so the "EU tariff" testuser is talking about on imported good does not apply.
 
Not all european Macs are built in Ireland. All iMacs and iBooks are built in Taiwan, I'm unsure about the PowerBooks, but all PowerMacs are built in Ireland. Yes, all, also the ones sold in the US. So shipping costs are definitly not a reason for higher prices in UK and Ireland than in USA, as mentioned earlier. I'm pretty sure that Apple simply is charging more in Europe than in the US because they sell less Macs in Europe, as a result of poor marketing. Why not just call Apple to get a confirmation of this?

testuser, no, as a socialist myself, I know what I'm talking about, and associating socialism with leninism and marxism belongs to the capitalists.
In Norway, around 50 % actually vote for parties which call themselves "anti-socialistic" and capitalistsic, around 30-35 % for more neutral parties, and the rest for partes which call themselves socialistic. Which means that Norway is 15-20 % socialistic, and that we have around 15-20 % socialists in the parlament. The government is controlled by the three parties which are definitly not average socialistic. Denmark has even less socialists in the parlament, as far as I know.

Don't base your view at different government forms on your experiences from Civilization II.
 
well, lets stop with arguing about socialism new and old, and capitalism dark or soft, or I open a thread in the Herve's bar and grill as the political science teacher I am ;)
No, I was kidding, and the discussion was, in a ethnological way, interesting.

Back to prices.
Talking with my apple reseller, here's what he told me :
Prices in apple stores around the world differs (talking tax free, of course) from the apple's reseller network in each country.
The more you got apple resellers in a country, the less the price is at the relevant-national apple store.
AppleStore are a big issue in the apple market, and apple resellers don't really love it. At the beginning, apple thought about selling macs everywhere at the same price. This was impossible for dealers, who could not sell machines at the same price because of stock values and things like that. So Apple decided to set different prices to allow their dealer's network carrying on, and not to kill their precious network. That's why Apple is a responsible company.

For instance, prices in France are quite low compared to E.U., because, as it has been said, macs are hugely sold in my country. We also have beautiful TV ads at prime time, ksv, and benefit from rebates, Test, but not at the same time as you. Still market strategy.

And, at least, prices increase following the gross national product per inhabitant. This may explain why the biggest complain come from Norway and Danemark, may be ? But this is also the reason why our scandinavian cousins don't share Euro with us, no ?

Just a word for you, Test : for long now, many european country are ruled by what has been called by both european and american academics :
social democraty. Roosevelt was a precursor of that "middle way". He failed to build an economy based on market AND welfare-state, because the announced world war II gave capitalism a new breath after the big depression. But we are getting far from our dreaming machine... Or may be not ?
 
Test, you don't have to apologize, I like political discussions. Because thinking about political issues is my job, and because I'm french... (we founded politics, you know...).

And this is not so far from the rest, in fact. I mean, the fact that we are using macs, not PC, is not totally neutral in political terms.

Umberto Eco wrote a small and funny essay, few years ago, about the PC vs Mac religion war, translating it into protestant and catholic terms.

I'm not sure I have the same ability to see catholicism as fun as the italians can, but Eco's text is partly true. I finally find and english version. Here it is :

Catholic Macs vs Protestant PCs

Of course, PCs still remain the bad guys at the end...
 
Testuser: I think yor definition of communism and socialism differs from mine. I think that some of the difference between communism and socialism is that under socialism the state does not control ever means of production and every ressourse. Where as socialism subsidises certain industries and other areas so they can maintain a certain level of operation.

I can only agree with you about the fact that we in Scandinavia are more a "socialist'" than in the US. This in my opinion is not a bad thing, for example everyone can get a college education and you even get paid around $520 a month for doing it.

My initial question was that I could not understand why I had to pay some much for a PowerMac. By reading this thread a lot of the reason to this has become apparent. Although I would still argue that we are paying a lot more for a Mac than the rest of you (US).

rezba: is this true what you say about the price being dependent on the GNP? If so why?

Also thank you for your insights to you all. It has been most educational. :D :D
 
Originally posted by Paragon
is this true what you say about the price being dependent on the GNP? If so why?
Click to expand...

Everything is just a little bit more expensive in Danemark than in France. Just because you can afford it. Differences are more relevant with Norway, for instance, but this country has one of the highest average income on earth.
In absolute value, a car is more expensive in Norway than in France, where cars are more expensive than in Spain. But in relative value, you need to work less in Norway to buy a car than you need it in Spain or in France.
This is not true for all products, of course. And market-based variations (those that explain that computers are very cheap in Japan, for instance), are also relevant.
But GNP explains variations for common goods, from a country to another. E.U. is a strong tool to smooth that, and euro a stronger one.
Finally, i would buy the first Xserve model at 3599 € (off taxes) in my national Apple Store, you will get it at 3604€ with today's DKK rating (ekskl moms). But Testuser still will get his at 3290€ ! It's disgusting, but I'd better be here than there.
Long live to our social democracies !
 
Well after i posted here my opinion about the Greek seller of MACs i have some news, the next day they made an anouncement changing their price policy. They are still relatively expensive but i think that now their prices seem more resonable.

i will try and calculate their prices in USD so that i try and see if they are better than other European countries.

All prices quoted below are for top of the range models:

iMac G4/800MHz 256/60GB/DVD-R/CD-RW/32MB VRAM/56K Modem:2503 Euros

iBook 14.1"TFT/ 600MHz/256K L2/256MB/20GB/DVD-ROM/CD-RW/FW/VO/56K MODEM (COMBO) 2395 Euro

Macintosh Powerbook G4 15.2 TFT 800MHz/512MB bs/L3cache 1MB/40G/FW/CD-RW/DVD/Gigabit Ethernet/56K Modem/Airport Card (COMBO)4104 Euro

Power Macintosh G4 Minitower Dual 1GHz/L2 256K/ L3 2MB /512MB SDRAM/80GB HD /DVD-R & CD-RW/GBitEnet/64MBVR 4012 Euro

On the prices above tax of 16% is not included.

Well how do these compare with other EU countries?
 
rezba,
thanks for the Umberto Eco link!
I'll try and look for the italian version as well!
 
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