What religion are you?

[applewhore]

how can anyone believe in ANY religion, knowing that, with no proof at all, it is the single biggest cause of war???

as a friend of mine once said, it is simply a matter of "my imaginary friend is bigger than your imaginary friend"...

you live...

you die...

get on with it!

to my mind, there is no argument... but to each, their own...

 

[toast]

That's a way to conceive it, applewhore. But you should work out some nuances in your speech.

It is true religion has been a very good reason to go and kill the one who did not think like you. But do not forget most of the time religion has been a pretext to invade and to loot countries (crusades), or to get rid of potential political opposition (anti-Reformism).

You live... you die... Some people feel reassured in believing that you don't (resurrection, eternal life and so on). That's not my case, but I can understand people who believe such things, even if it still sounds complete gulliblery to me .

 

[edX]

i agree with toast in that religion has never been the cause of war. it has been a banner under which sides gather to fight for resources, but religion is not a cause of war. very few religions actually promote violence or war. people promote violence and wars and then claim that their God was on their side cause they won. this is not the same as having a spiritual connection and belief system.

 

[Darkshadow]

I dunno, Ed. The Crusades were declared as "War against the infidel" and "Win back the Holy Land" before anyone even took a step toward that goal. Priests actually led men to it. And they weren't largely successful, so they didn't just tag it that God was on their side after the fact. They believed it the whole time.

The Crusades were a dark time, showing off humanity's worst traits, IMO. Priests actually told anyone going that they were on a pilgrimage, sanctioned by God, and that any sins done on that pilgrimage were absolved. That led to many terrible things, even on the route to the holy land, not just there, from people that really should have known better.

 

[applewhore]

I'm sorry... I obviously haven't expressed myself clearly...

I agree that no religion has ever expressed the belief that war is good...

however, the fact that religion has, and always will be (IMHO) the opiate for the masses (until everyone becomes as cynical as me ) does not change the fact that nearly every conflict is based on religion...

even the war in iraq has now instigated a "jihad" as the fact that the US and the UK have invaded without proving the whole WMD thing... muslims across the region believe that they must rise up and face the oppressing conquerors because they are told to in the "name of religion:... US&UK v Iraq now = anti muslim in their minds...

as the PM in Egypt said, this will create 100 new Bin Ladens...

as long as power is based on religion (afer all, what could be less blameful?!) unhappy people will be happy to fight in the name of it - which makes the situation for the "bad men" who sometimes lead them much easier...

i'm sorry, but i truly believe that religion is the "easy way out" - whether it be the "afterlife", "resurrection" or "reincarnation" deal that you're looking for...

why not just get on with what we've got? i.e "life" it seems as though it's enough to deal with anyway (and much too much for a lot of people...) but maybe that's why they turn to religion - after all, there has to be something better, hasn't there?

 

[toast]

Originally posted by Darkshadow
The Crusades were declared as "War against the infidel" and "Win back the Holy Land" [...] Priests actually told anyone going that they were on a pilgrimage, sanctioned by God, and that any sins done on that pilgrimage were absolved.

You are right, but Crusaders were more concerned with looting and raping than with God. Many crusaders stayed in the countries they had invaded and prospered. Crusades were a means to get rich for many, at least for more than those who thought it was a means to absolve. Thinking of the crusades as purely ideologic wars is an illusion of the mind. Vast majority of religion wars are motivated by economical and (geo)political interests.

 

[edX]

yea, what toast said.
don't confuse the pretext - the rhetoric and propaganda of war, with the reasons for war. war is always over resources and who controls their limited supply. also remember that the people who start wars and the people who get conned into fighting them are normally not the same. just because men tend to corrupt religious ideals doesn't make religion a bad thing. there are people who corrupt atheism as well and use it as an excuse for lawlwessness since then the only consequences are in this life. any philosophy can be twisted if one wants to.

 

[applewhore]

"there are people who corrupt atheism as well and use it as an excuse for lawlwessness since then the only consequences are in this life. any philosophy can be twisted if one wants to"

but, ed, surely this is the whole "non belief, belief" thing for atheists?! that is to say, the only consequences for one's actions are to be paid in this life - that's not twisting it, it's just how it is!

certainly it is the leaders who twist the ideolgies of religion to make it suit their purposes - it still does not get over the fact that, as I said previously, the people who go to war, having been riled up by whomsoever, do so "in the name of religion"...

just prove one thing from one religion - i'll be happy to reconsider my position!

 

[toast]

Originally posted by applewhore
as I [applewhore] said previously, the people who go to war, having been riled up by whomsoever, do so "in the name of religion"...

just prove one thing from one religion - i'll be happy to reconsider my position!

Let's expand your point of view. People kill, invade, rape, slaughter, in the name of religion (belief in God), but also in the name of:
- nationalism (belief in country)
- racism (belief in race superiority)
- imperialism (belief in civilization superiority)
- and this list is non exhaustive.

 

[anerki]

Religion is a wrong term I think. Not that I can think of any better but maybe belief or sth like that. People are religious for 1 important reason. Because they believe in sth and that sth is what they like, what they would want themselves ... No? They want to reflect what's important for them in a religion. Of course no religion can captate everything one believes in, that's why I opted for Other ... I think free-masonry is a religion, in its most simple form ...

 

[toast]

Originally posted by anerki
I think free-masonry is a religion, in its most simple form ...

Some prefer to say it's a sect.

 

[Xunil]

Im what DC Talk describes as a Jesus Freak...Praise the Lord, for what he did on the cross for all of us...

 

[anerki]

Toast, Free-Masonry isn't well thought of in southern Europe because of the catholicism here but for example in Netherlands or in England Free-Masonry isn't just a group of people hiding. In London you can go visit a Free-Masonry 'temple' if you want. I think it was London ...

 

[edX]

masons have temples throughout the US. more of a social organization here from what i have heard. but yea, i would consider free masonry as a christian religion. very much the mystical side of christianity.

 

[toast]

Freemason important figures sometimes give interviews in France. If you really want to meet them, you always succeed. As I'm studying politics, I know how to get to them pretty fast (phone).

Freemasonry is a problem by definition. It is a solidarity network hidden in what should be another solidarity network, ie. society.

To make it less conceptual, freemason judiciary is a big problem: here in France, we had some trials that were cancelled because the (freemason) judges were favouring (freemason) lawyers, or privileging (freemason) indicted people.

Freemasonry has been used to embezzle, to bribe, to corrupt public services. Even though that's not what freemasonry is aiming at. As said, their aim is more a kind of social mysticism. But he organization has been flawed a lot of times.

A big example for English people:

The English police has known two major scandals: 1897, and 1977.

1977, police scandal, Officer Moody, does that ring a bell ?

Well, freemasonry was behind it.

As a 'fervent atheist', I consider this type of organization like a soft version of what a sect can be. But certainly not as a religion.

 

[anerki]

Which is always the problem ... But why do you judge the entire system. Of course there have been abuses. I mean, catholisism razed entire arabian cities during the crusades, millions of Muslims were killed. But still it's called a good religion. If you never see what's the spirit behind it, you'll never appreciate it. As soon as sth starts to get popular the corruption starts. Same with Free Masonry

 

[toast]

Originally posted by anerki
Which is always the problem ... But why do you judge the entire system. Of course there have been abuses. I mean, catholisism razed entire arabian cities during the crusades, millions of Muslims were killed. But still it's called a good religion. If you never see what's the spirit behind it, you'll never appreciate it. As soon as sth starts to get popular the corruption starts. Same with Free Masonry

I do not mean to judge the entire system, or rather the totality of its members.

Your comparison with catholicism may be called wrong, for catholicism has been reformed since the crusades. (cf. Vatican II).

I think I "see the spirit behind it". But I put reality before it, praxis_first. Many sects have 'good' spirits, but 'evil' means, is a simple way to express it. Cf. Waco: they all wished to go to Heaven, you know the following.

Plus, but this point's pretty personal, I feel organizing a second solidarity under society (principle of guilds, what freemasonry inspires itself from) is treacherous. But that's extremely long and intricate to explain.