What's up with Germany, France and Belgium?
- Thread starter themacko
- Start date
toast
Gone !
The very simple fact you think bombs can democratize a country, mrfluffy, reveals your complete ignorance of international relations, history, diplomacy and political theory and science.
I don't know if you can be blamed for that, but I think you should learn from the other members here who are trying to explain you that democracy doesn't come with a bomb.
I don't know if you can be blamed for that, but I think you should learn from the other members here who are trying to explain you that democracy doesn't come with a bomb.
I never said the US should do it, the UN should.
my exact quote was "but i mean a real war no bombing, just invasion" NO BOMBING
saddam is a murderous dictator, every day my government doesnt kill him is another day that he tortures and murders innocent people because of my government. We have a responsibility to the Iraqi people to remove him from power whatever the cost in money or [British and american] lives.
and if you look at history (I got an A) you'll see that germany (the very pacifist democracy who partially caused this thread) was set up because we liberated it from nazism (west germany anyway).
an just out of interest if saddam does completely disarm are we gonna leave him in power? cos that's just an indirect rout of killing loads of Iraqis.
the post WWII democracy only exists because military action was taken against hitler, if nothing had been done (like an armistice to between the UK and Nazis somewhen in '41) the nazis would still be in power. but we did something and germany is one of the biggest nations (financially) in europe.
I am saying we not only should, but have a moral obligation to, remove saddam from power and set up a democracy in Iraq.
I do pity the american education system, I've been told by some americans that it's very bias (including my first history teacher who was american). I also pity yours as you dont seem to be able to understand the meaning of "location: hants, UK".
Cat
Registered
Well, I don't know ... I think that the situation in Germany in the '30 and Iraq '90 is quite different. Germany up to WW I and WW II has had a completely different history than Iraq. Also the influence of religion is completely different. Many (leaders of) European countries actively opposed the (catholic) church becasue it was a rival power (at least up to 1870), while the situation in the Middle-East is different, though I don't know the details. In each case opposition is not as strong as it was in 19th - 20 th century Europe. Remember that protestantism invoked personal reading and interpretation of the bible (up to a certain extent) in contrast with catholicism which proposed their own interpretation from the pultpi to the masses. Maybe the Islam could benefit too from a sort of protestantism... apart from Shiitic and Sunnitic movements I know of no schism in the Islam.
Anyway, historical and cultural differences are big enough to say that the metafor is no good.
Also, remember that Hitler won the elections more or less legally and with the support of most of the people...
BTW Britain and France declared war on germany immediately on annexation of Poland in 1939, while America (who wanted originally to remain netral) declared war on Germany only at the end of 1941. So, yes, the US turned the tables on the Nazi's, but saying they would be still in power nowadays, has no substantial historical backing. The winners write history, so according to "what if's", I could have had the same response from a Nazi regarding the Americans. "We freed you from those yanks" etc.
Anyway, historical and cultural differences are big enough to say that the metafor is no good.
Also, remember that Hitler won the elections more or less legally and with the support of most of the people... BTW Britain and France declared war on germany immediately on annexation of Poland in 1939, while America (who wanted originally to remain netral) declared war on Germany only at the end of 1941. So, yes, the US turned the tables on the Nazi's, but saying they would be still in power nowadays, has no substantial historical backing. The winners write history, so according to "what if's", I could have had the same response from a Nazi regarding the Americans. "We freed you from those yanks" etc.
toast
Gone !
I just didn't look at your signature before posting and thought you were American. Sorry.
I am still waiting for you to explain this bit of your post :
I think this post is very telling of your personality and general opinion of yourself. I won't say more here, I am not making myself enemies.
If you want to have a serious talk about history and actuality, would you mind learning what happened between the Nazis (1933) and Gulf War (1991), please ?
It seems every time you talk of international relations to some English and/or American people, they automatically go back to nazis, to US freeing Europe from fascism etc.
Moreover:
- My BBC Konfabulator indicator is telling me: "No Rush to war, says Blair".
- NATO has just reached some agreement.
- The EU extraordinary council has just reached some agreement.
This thread was started because some very respectable member of this board needed explanations about actuality. Now the thread is talking of nazism.
Would anyone mind getting back on-topic ? Or is everyone so sure to know everything about nazism and WW2 that they prefer to stay on 55 yrs-old history ?
More funny: www.ironictimes.com
<ironic>
By the way, mrfluffy, thank you for explaining WW2 to the 2nd year student in politics I am. Could you explain WW1 in a future post please ?
</ironic>
mrfluffy and Toast, I'm sure we bother if you received a A or any other honor for you broad knowledge about history... most young people that were on the road to give their opinion during the last week-end probably had no honor in history or in politics... but they had something to say and they said it.
The opinion of my neighbour is more important to me than his diploma... and of course if we can speak about the reasons that are behind this opinion, it's a plus.
My gut's feeling is that continental Europa lived a war from inside one generation ago, and have a long tradition of sharing/absorbing opinions and cultures, therefore Europeans have the tendancy to considere the war is the worst solution. This does not mean the European countries have no army and will not use it if needed.
The opinion of my neighbour is more important to me than his diploma... and of course if we can speak about the reasons that are behind this opinion, it's a plus.
My gut's feeling is that continental Europa lived a war from inside one generation ago, and have a long tradition of sharing/absorbing opinions and cultures, therefore Europeans have the tendancy to considere the war is the worst solution. This does not mean the European countries have no army and will not use it if needed.
