When Apple Tech Support doesn't support...

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01000111

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My friends mother bought a new iBook on my recommendation. After less than two months of her rarely using it the middle third of the LCD screen went dead. They sent it in for repairs, but the technicians said that the screen broke because they 'touched' it and would not replace it unless they paid almost $700! No matter how long my friends argue that they never touched the screen Apple Tech Support won't fix the problem for free. My friends are infuriated and wonder if this is how Apple treats all its customers. They'll probably never buy from Apple again.

What recourse can my friends take to convince Apple that the laptop broke because of faulty hardware? If they do have to shell out the big bucks to get it replaced, what's to insure them it won't just break again? Has anyone else been treated as such by Apple TS? Are these consumer grade iBooks (found in elementary schoolchildrens hands nation-wide) really so fragile that the LCD will break with merely a 'touch'?
 
If the laptop is covered under warranty then it should be replaced without any issues, they should just call and escalate the issue up the chain of command to get it resolved.

The only other issue is if the screen was tampered with, such as it didn't work so they took it apart to attempt to fix it and voided the warranty, "touching" may be a less technical term then tampering.

But, as always, a stern, yet persistent voice can get you even through the most troubling customer service experiences.

Another thing, would be to threaten to contact sites like MacOSX.com, MacFixIt and other places that would put the issue in the true light.

Admin
 
When I got my iBook I immediately realised there was a problem with my display (dark at the top, very light at the bottom). It was too late in the day to call Apple so I went to their "Knowledge Base" (if you can call it that). There was no mention of any problems with iBook screens-actually there were only 2 or 3 articals mentioning them at all.

So I went of their Discussion Board, that's when I started getting nervous. It seems a lot of customers are having a variety of problems with their iBook displays, including the problem I'm having. The really disturbing part is how many of them are saying that Apple refuses to do anything about it. Apple has been quoted as saying that iBooks are "consumer models" and have a wider margin for error than other models. They've sent peoples machines back untouched saying that they are "within specs" and that these defects are "acceptable". They even suggested that one customer "contact a lawyer" if he was unsatisfied when they refused to repair the same problem I'm having! Tech Support has been called everything from rude and dismissive to hostile.

When I contacted them the guy told me to send it in and they'd look at it. When I called again to report that I had noticed that the bottom by the hinge was VERY scratched up (among other problems), the guy told me that they probably wouldn't fix it because it might be my fault! I told him I couldn't send it in for a month because I was going out of state and he implied that I really should send it in NOW to avoid any of this being blamed on me! I told him that was why I was making note of these problems now to begin with.

I am unable to find a definition anywhere of what Apple considers acceptable defects. A warranty is worthless if a company defines what most users consider unacceptable as being "within specs"-especially if they don't publish those specs (acceptable defects). That is not only unfair, but I suspect its illegal. My warranty is against ALL manufacturer defects-not just the ones Apple feels like fixing. I’ve gotten an overall impression that Apple will not repair defective machines unless they are completely dead.

I will say this: if my iBook is returned to me in the condition it leaves my house I will demand a refund (even if I do have to get a lawyer) and I will never buy Apple products again.

I simply refuse to accept that I received a $1700 lemon. I don’t care what Apple considers “acceptable”. If the conditions of this purchase were not made available to us when we bought the computers then we cannot be held to them. If I had known that Apple had started doing business this way I never would’ve bought it in the first place.

I know a lot of people have a total alligence to Apple and are unwilling to say one negative word against them, I used to be one of them. But the obvious problems with their customer service MUST be addrssed. I have read people's responses that every manufacturer produces imperfect items and that THEIR experience has been nothing but positive (as if to imply that these people need to just shut up and be grateful that they get to own a Mac!). But they must admit that, at the minimum, there is an issue with consistancy in Apple's support of their customers and that A LOT of people are very unhappy.

I suggest to this forum that an area be created where people can discuss their issues with Apple's Tech Support and Customer Service. To my mind that might do some good, although I don't know how much, seeing as most complaints are on Apple's own website! But it'd be nice to be able to not only connect with others that are having issues with Apple's Support (or lack of) but also to know who got results and how. Many people are cowed by big companies and don't know that they have any recourse or how to get their problems addressed.

Just a suggestion,
Leesa
 
well said Leesa.

Admin: the laptop in question was never tampered with or opened. The warranty was never voided (although as leesa mentions Apple has free will to define 'abuse' as they see fit). My friends have used a stern and persistent voice as far up the Apple Tech Support chain of command as they can get. The only compromise is that Apple has agreed to only charge them half, so that is still like $350. My friends don't want to have to pay that either as this is an obvious product defect.

More bad news: my friend never told the representative that he was willing to pay that half price offer, but the Apple rep thought he did and went ahead and (apparently) fixed it in 'good faith' that my friend would send the money. The laptop should be on its way home. My friend doesn't have that money to send and doesn't know what will happen if he doesn't pay. Will Apple send it to a collection agency or seek legal means to get that money?

There is no budging with these guys. It took a whole month of my friend bitching from one rep on up to the next for them to even compromise with the half price offer, and they didn't even want to do that. My friend said that the laptop was a lemon, and the guy refuted that with the brilliant argument: "well it worked for two months so that means it's not a lemon". Give me a break.

I am the hugest Mac and Apple fan/zealot/evangelist, and I have been since I got a Mac Plus back in the 80's. It pains me to see Apple customers treated thusly. It pains me more that it happened to my friends who trusted me to recommend a good computer solution to them. I know Apple needs to turn a profit, and I know it's hard business competing against Microsoft and PC hardware makers, but they really need to treat their few customers better. It sickens me that any company would treat their customers this way.

How do we make Apple see the bigger picture? How do we make them understand that one angry customer will tell all their friends, who will in turn spread the word? The people who study customer service and its effectiveness know that one angry customer can directly influence up to 50 potential and future sales. If Apple treats even a fraction of their user base in this way they are losing a lot of money. No wonder their market share has a hard time breaking 5%.
 
well, it took a month of grief and lengthy long distance calls, but Apple Tech Support has finally waived the costly repair fee. My friends, as well as myself, are relieved and overjoyed. While I am not pleased with how Apple handled this, I am pleased with the result. Way to go Apple.

For others out there if you know you are in the right don't take "no" for an answer. Underneath their hard spiny exterior there is some compassion that can be found at Apple Tech Support.
 
01000111,

I'm happy to hear you got some results.

I'd like to think that Apple still comes through for its customers, in spite how difficult it is to get that result.

I have also been a hardcore Apple fan for many years and have talked countless friends into buying Macs, as we all have (9 so far, what is that, $15-25,000?). Its always been a positive experience for those people. It seems that when Apple gets it right, they really get it right- when a Mac works it is still, undoubtedly, the best best choice you can make.

But I'm not confident recomending them these days, and that makes me sadder than you know. Apple has always relied on its users to be their best advertisements, and with the severing of the Circut City relationship it seems that their users recomendations are more important now than ever. I'd like to believe that that relationship ended because C.C. has never truely been behind Apple- and not because Apple wants complete control over the selling/ return process. It was almost impossible for them to enforce their strict return policy while honoring a retail outlet's 30 day money back guaranty.

What really bothers me is how little access potential buyers have to any negative comments about their Apple experience, which would allow them to be more informed customers. And its NOT because those horror stories aren't out there. You just have to dig for them- but once you really start looking the sheer amount of similar experiences are unbelievable. For instance:

http://www.macintouch.com/applesupport.html
http://www.mathdittos2.com/columns/bh/bh990225.html
and various newsgroups

It doesn't help that Apple seems to attempt to supress these comments through "nondisclosure agreements" and the restriction against complaining about tech and service experiences in their discussion areas. If it comes to their attention that you've said anything negative about Apple in the Discussion areas on their site they remove it, no matter how resonably you state your case. Although many of these coments remain on the site I watch them disappear daily.What I find really disturbing about it is that other Mac users (who I used to think of as "family") are the ones reporting anyone complaining to the admin themselves. Any complaining is seen as chipping away at that 5%.

It just seems so backwards, instead of addressing the issue of bad support, they sidestep it by removing feedback links (remember Tell Steve?) and force you to deal with them one on one (or 2, or 10, however many it takes!)

If Apple winds up addressing my problem I will still reccomend them, I will still sing their praises- but with warnings added and a lot of reservations.

Perhaps it was just time that I got realistic; 5% is what, 1.3 billion or something? They ARE big business, they ARE just a company (not a religious group, of which I was a member) and they're Not the same company I grew up with. I guess I just had to grow up-not to sound to corny but I kinda feel like I just found out that my parents were tragically human, and not the gods I thought they were. Reality can just be depressing sometimes.

sorry for rambling
leesa
 
Hi, I hate when people have bad times with customer service at any company, and while I'm only 18 I have some insight on Customer Service. I currently work for a large company doing Customer Service (Merchant and Bank Trained) to help customers with problems, all the way from "where is my package" to "why do I have a late fee" to "explain my charges...." and what not. While I don't know how Apple does their Customer Service, our company is smaller so I would think Apple would have similar if not 'higher' standards. When you call up, PLEASE, do not be a jerk with the Customer Service rep, let it be known you ARE upset but don't cuss or scream or insinuate they are stupid (at first) because doing so will just put you on a bad foot. We deal with 100's of people a day (so its "just" another call) so make a good first impression with the rep, secondly if you are not getting anywhere, ask nicely to please speak with the reps supervisor, again stay calm or else you are just going to be considered another "obscene customer that we/they have to deal with." Again if you don't get anywhere, insist that you speak with somebody higher up, as well as this you can contact the better business buero (sorry I'm not sure on the spelling) and you can refer to the warranty. Ask them to tell you "When and where was I informed of the specs you go by? I purchased this computer which came with a warranty and no where did the warranty explicitly expalin the terms you are referring to." Just know that you can fight them, contact your atterny general, or that of California where their home office resides, when somebody threatens me with something like that at work I say "Okay mam, could you please hold for just a moment" and then I review there account to MAKE sure I am in the right, and occasionly, and I will admit I have found where I am in the wrong. Just keep in mind that you need to work with them and not expect them to do everything (although they are getting paid and you did spend a lot of money with them, keep in mind that the person you are talking to is a person and that if you can help them they are going to be more willing to help you.)

One last thing, while there ARE a lot of stupid Customer Service reps out there, we are not all bad, and a lot of times we may not agree with what we are telling you but we are doing our job and are doing what the execs have outlined for us to do. Are calls are monitered and we need to do what they tell us to in order to keep our job and or current pay.

Anyways, good luck on your problem, I hope you get it straightened out.
 
Hi,

I'm glad Vipr said that. I have another thing to add, sort of on the opposite side.

Today, I found out that my own case at Apple Customer Support was handled *fantastically* -- I told them of my problem, the next day I had a box overnighted to me, and the next day I sent it, and *the day they got it*, they fixed it and mailed it to me the next day. Total turnaround time: 5 days.

When I spoke to the woman today to find out my status and I learned this, I made a point of really thanking her. I didn't just say 'thank you,' I made a point of telling her that I knew that Apple Care sometimes got a bad rap, but that my experience had been great, and that I hoped she would do everything she could to keep up that level of service.

It's not that I think that I made a huge difference today. But can you imagine how Apple Support people would feel, if every *good* job was rewarded by the warm words of a satisfied customer? If they were recognized, not just by their meager salary that cannot really be said to provide all that much incentive to go above and beyond the call of duty, but by customers that set aside some time to give a personal, human connection and happy transfer of feelings to the folks that make *any* repairs possible?

Please remember: negative feedback for a job poorly done is only half of the conditioning scheme. The other half, while psychologists seem to have shown to be less reliable a carver of behavior, seems to me to be of vital importance.

Thanks,

-0
 
Hey just a quick responce to your post Zero... I think thats great that you had a good time with Apple support, but what I think is even cooler is that you told them thank you in such an awesome way. When I even get a "sincere" thanks from a customer, let alone the type of thanks you gave them, it puts me in a mood that is much better for the rest of the day. I know that all companies have their problems with C/S, and some are better off then others I hope that Apples level of support continues to grow. To bad they didn't have a call center in Minnesota. ;-) And good luck to the original poster with your problems.
 
just wanted to respond to the latest comments.

I agree that it serves no purpose to be overly emotional with any rep of the company you're having problems with. But I don't think the customer's attitude is the issue here.

The problem, as I see it , is the dreaded POLICY. As customer service reps you know that there are issues that you've been told that you cannot address. Is seems that most of the Apple reps that customers are dealing with have their hands tied by the higher-ups. Not to say that many Apple Tech Support people don't have attitude problems, they do. Perhaps that's due to the fact that they are rather powerless when it comes to getting repairs done- they are not the ones in the "shop" and its not up to them whether a particular repair is approved. And most times when you ask to speak to a supervisor you're told its either imposible or that you'll be called back, which rarely happens.
The problem stems from Apple's support architecture; the chain of channels one has to go through in order to get results. If you call Apple 10 times about a problem you will likely get 10 different answers. Customer Service has no control over what Tech Support does, Tech Support has no control over what the Repair Center does and the Repair Center has no control over Apple Policies. You'll get a different response from each regarding the outcome of your case. Its an issue of ACCOUNTABILITY. No one seems to be able to take care of a case themselves. See the problem?

I'm glad that certain customers are getting results BUT- that seems to be dependant on the type of problem you're having. If the part you need replaced costs $100, that's going to be processed more successfuly than a $700 LCD (which cannot be "repaired, by the way. Due to the way LCDs are manufactured they cannot be tinkered with or taken apart, they just go in the trash. So Apple's more likely to accept a wider range of defects to keep costs down. And it doesn't help that that LCD plant just closed, pushing the costs up even more). Each case is handled differently and that's the unfair practice- ALL items under warranty should be addressed equally, but they're not.

Look, we all love Apple, obviously, and we're more likely to give then slack when trying to get results. But there comes a point where they must respond to the overwhelming dissatisfaction with their practices, that's all I'm saying.

BTW, I've never had any problems with Apple's customer service department, most people don't- its the tech guys that are driving most people crazy. As a side note, I used to live in Austin and I knew a guy who was a Tech Support person for Apple. Until he got the job he had only used Macs in school and knew almost nothing about them. He told me that no one he worked with really knew much about Macs, they just followed the scripts. They did have very strict rules about "chatting" with customers- they were never to say anything that admitted liability and they were never to promise that a repair would be done- even if it was under warranty and obviously something that needed to be fixed. I don't know if this is indicative of ALL Apple's techs but jeeze, what the hell?? Pretty scary.

leesa
 
I just wanted to make a tiny clarification, in case I was misunderstood. I do not at all mean to suggest that customer attitude in general is *the*, or even *a*, problem. I also do not mean to imply that customer attitude is responsible or blameworthy when Apple Care does not respond in a satisfactory way to customers.

Also, I was not attempting to diagnose an undoubtedly complex problem -- that is, I did not mean to imply that customer attitude is itself an issue or the issue, and particularly, not the issue central to Apple Care's successes or failures.

I only wanted to say that when Apple Care does things *right*, let's be as free with our rewards as we are with our criticisms. Sometimes, even those who are not responsible for or in control of a problem, can have a positive effect towards solving it.

Thank you,

-0
 
I agree with the two above posts, while the attitude of the customer when calling a rep *can* affect the reps attitude, it really shouldn't matter. It seems like Apple has to many divisions that can help customers, it may look good on paper but in reality it just doesn't seem to be working. Okay, two things I want to address:
1) First, which I have somewhat addressed, is that it really shouldn't matter if the customer has a bad attitude because I know that if I were to have serious problems with my PowerBook G4 550mhz that I purchased 2 weeks ago I wouldn't call Apple all chipper, I'd call upset, and rightfully so. So while the customers attitude comes into play, it shouldn't matter. The reps are getting paid to help, thats there job, and if they aren't being compensated enough then Apple needs to reevaulate their pay structure and incentives.
2) Secondly, Its seems as if Apple needs to have more of a "one call service" attitude. I work at the second largest mail order company in the states (according ot our company) and I take orders, merchant customer service (like, i haven't rcvd my items, where are my items, uom (un ordered merch) and alot more) as well as Bank (credit card questions, balance disputes, and pretty much everything you'd call Visa for). I mean I just think it makes sense to train as many of your employees in as many areas as possible because customers often have questions that more then one dept (in the current setup) needs to deal with, and while apple may think they are saving money by having so many "specialty" deptartments, they infact are increasing costs because customers are calling different deptartments, explaining situations multiple times, which is increasing costs because the reps are on the phone longer and the call volumes are higher.

Anyways sorry for rambling, but I wanted to make it clear that I totally agree that while I think the customer shouldn't be a total jerk from the get go, they certainly do have a right to be upset and angry. It sounds like apple needs to do some revamping.
 
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