Why buy an Apple?

um i had xp installed, and running fine on a now 3 year old machine (its with a friend now, and running fine), so i dont honestly see where you are getting that info?

and hulk.... remember your experiences arent necessarily fact for every one bro, calm down :)

I've probably had just as many mac negative moments as you have had pc negative moments.... why? because of the environments we've worked in ;)

anyways pc's arent as "100% crap" as most mac users would like to think and vice versa... some people need to have a more open mind ;)
 
Originally posted by cellfish
Why is it that when ANYBODY suggests that a PC is better, even if they know what they are talking about, they are automatically called trolls and berated?

The at 650$ is faster than the 3800$ Mac to start off so it's not much of a privilege unless being with something that looks good is a big privilege to you (which would make you superficial).

Now that I've mentioned that the PC is faster, the natural argument out of everyone here will be: 'the Mac allows me to work faster' which is not true

Loading a program is faster on the PC and executing just about anything within the program is faster as well. Menu navigation also is faster. Basically everything is faster.
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I can't believe what you just said. You are in a mac board, are accused of being a troll, and then you shoot out at all the mac users for calling you a troll. You continue on with your blunt argument "pc's are faster and cheaper." And my iMac (stats below) DOES allow me to work faster through sheer intuition and a superior OS. I don't think that windows works well because frankly, it is just a choppy, unpolished OS. Ask anyone who has used both Mac OS X and windows which operating system has a better window based navigation system and the answer will no doubt be MAC OS X. It is smooth, efficient, and stable. I can't say the same for windows. In my limited experience with windows I have been amazed at how much this lack of interface show's. I updated my pc to XP about a month ago, and now find myself using it even less. If you want to convince people that pc's are better then Mac's, this is not the board to do it.
 
--- "trolling" he shouldn't be berated for having a positive opinion on pcs, plain and simple... as long as his arguments are rationa, which they have been thus far. i am much in the same boat as him.

--- "ask anyone..." do i count as anyone? give me a new pc and a new mac... i'll get more done productivity wise on a pc, because it is faster in my extensive usage, there is no getting around it...

--- "why are you here blah blah..." i dunno about him and cant speak for him. But i like OSX alot, and I like XP alot, XP is faster IMHO, OSX is purtier and more interesting IMHO... why is it a crime to like both systems and to admit the faults and goods of both?
 
Originally posted by Cat
BTW. Try installing the latest OS from M$ and from Apple on the newest machines ... then try to install them om two three year old machines ... chances are OS X will install and run perfectly while XP will balk. This kind of implicit support is also a very valuable component of using a Mac. My GF is running exactly the same OS as I am, but she runs it on my old G3@366MHz clamshell iBook and I on a G4@867MHz 12" PowerBook. If you succeed to install XP on two so utterly different machines, try to compare their performance, chances are XP will perform relatively much worse on older hardware.
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I ran Win2K on my AMD 233 up until last year. I was running NT4 on 486/120's (made a great low volume web/dns/smtp server). You CAN'T run OSX on anything less than a G3 (well, not supported anyway).

And are you saying that OSX runs no better on your G4 than on her G3 (otherwise why make the statement that XP would run worse on 3 year old hardware). OF COURSE it will run faster on a machine with 3ghz/512MBDDR400/ATA133/Radeon9700pro vs the 1.4ghz/256MBDDR2100/ATA100/Radeon machine of yore.
 
Originally posted by Jason
anyways pc's arent as "100% crap" as most mac users would like to think and vice versa...

Did I say that Wintels are 100% crap? Sorry, I wanted to say that 99% are crap! :p ;)

some people need to have a more open mind ;)

I have my mind wide open... At 360 degrees that is! :p :D ;)
 
Originally posted by Cat
My GF is running exactly the same OS as I am
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What is this GF of which you speak?! A new Motorola chip and no rumours flying about? How does it compare to an IBM 970?

Sorry, I'm being silly :)
 
Originally posted by mr. K
...
And my iMac (stats below) DOES allow me to work faster through sheer intuition and a superior OS. I don't think that windows works well because frankly, it is just a choppy, unpolished OS. Ask anyone who has used both Mac OS X and windows which operating system has a better window based navigation system and the answer will no doubt be MAC OS X. It is smooth, efficient, and stable. I can't say the same for windows. In my limited experience with windows I have been amazed at how much this lack of interface show's. I updated my pc to XP about a month ago, and now find myself using it even less. If you want to convince people that pc's are better then Mac's, this is not the board to do it.
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Good thing you mentioned intuition. Can people here at least accept that ones personal experience plays a HUGE part on how comfortable on is with a GUI? If you came up from the Mac world, then of course OSX will feel much more intuitive than Windoze. I came from the PC world (well been doing Macs forever to, but most of my day to day is on PC's) and I find the Windoze interface MUCH more intuitive (hell I've been using Windows literally since 1.0). I like multiple menus, I like pressing <end> to go to the end of a line, I like "thou shalt be able to do anything with the keyboard that you can do with a mouse, within reason", I like right click context menus (as a long standard feature, I know you can do that on Macs too now), I don't like a single master menu bar, I don't like expand to max document size vs maximize to screen, I don't like the finder. I'm not saying these things to argue, THEY ARE MY PERSONAL PREFERENCES. But at least I have enough sense to say that the GUI's are different, not that the MacOS gui is somehow magical (it's not). When I use Win2K, it's smooth, efficient, and stable, but again, that's because I'm very familiar with it. Now does MacOS LOOK nicer, yup, eye candy galore. Do I really care, well a little, but then again looking nicer doesn't make me any more efficient.

The Mac gui is the SAME as the Windoze gui in that in both cases users have to be trained on how to use it. The relative intuitiveness of the ui stems greatly from this training. Now is the Mac a bit easier for the beginner to understand, well maybe, I can't say, I'm not a beginner. But I have helped other beginners with both OS's, and it's been my experience that it's the broader concepts that trip them up (what is a folder, what's a file, what does click mean, what's the diff between a single click and a double click). The other mechanical things like which button hides windows, how do I copy this file thingy are just a matter of teaching and then the user remembering.

As to "convincing people on this board that PC's are better", well hopefully it's hard because in many/most cases they are not, not because people are so closed minded that they believe that their OS's poo doesn't stink. Meaning when there are times when a PC is demonstrably better (or at least no worse) that Mac people can acknowledge that. And most importantly be mature enough to understand when something truely is better vs simply being what they're used to or at the very least understanding that better looking doesn't equate to better productivity.
 
Originally posted by Jason
--- "trolling" he shouldn't be berated for having a positive opinion on pcs, plain and simple... as long as his arguments are rationa, which they have been thus far. i am much in the same boat as him.

Yeah, me too! Wintels are faster, better, cheaper and in general offer a lot more than Macs...

--- "ask anyone..." do i count as anyone? give me a new pc and a new mac... i'll get more done productivity wise on a pc, because it is faster in my extensive usage, there is no getting around it...

Yeah, me too! I can do a lot more on any Wintel that I can do on any Mac...

--- "why are you here blah blah..." i dunno about him and cant speak for him. But i like OSX alot, and I like XP alot, XP is faster IMHO, OSX is purtier and more interesting IMHO... why is it a crime to like both systems and to admit the faults and goods of both?

No crime there... XP is much better than OS X will ever be and not to mention billions times faster and cheaper too (you can get it for free aka cracked)!

I totally agree with you guys... I really do! Now, let's rename this forum from www.macosx.com into something like www.macro$xp.com or www.intelppa.com and praise the powers that be at Redmond... Now, if only Scott(ie) will beam us up too! :rolleyes: :D :p ;) :cool:
 
Originally posted by monktus
What is this GF of which you speak?! A new Motorola chip and no rumours flying about? How does it compare to an IBM 970?

Sorry, I'm being silly :)
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If you don't know what a GF is, then perhaps you need to put the can of Jolt (oops I forgot, this is 2k3 not 1998, that would be put the triple latte) down and go outside. See those individuals with two large deformities in the upper torso? Notice how they strangly resemble those images on those websites that you have to provide a cc# to access? Try talking to one, oh, well first take a shower and get cleaned up. You might find your life richer (and your wallet the opposite) ;)
 
Originally posted by ebolag4
Don't presume that you know what happened in my situation. I understand that in a case where the hardware is working the way it should and the planets are all perfectly aligned, and there is world peace, that the install time for the two operating systems should be roughly the same. But since those conditions did not obviously exist (and again if reference my statement about the PCs being cr*p) it DID take me an ENTIRE WEEK OF WORK TIME!!!! If I'm exaggerating, could you tell me where I can get those hours back. I could have done something much more productive with my time!
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Well I work at an ISP where there are around 350 computers. After what you said, I asked the admin there how long it took to ghost the exact same configuration to those 350 computers. There are two people doing the job (two admins) and it took then 2 days. How you managed to do 10 computers in 40 hours is beyond me.

YOU CALLED ME A LIAR!!!!!
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I said you were exaggerating, I never called you a liar.
 
Originally posted by binaryDigit
...intuition...
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great post :)

Originally posted by hulkaros
...trolling...
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smart arse ;) at least its in good humour this time ;)

-----

cell is it possible your friends were talking work days and not 24hour days?
 
Originally posted by hulkaros
Because you seem to avoid my question about DVD recording with nice evasive manuevers (=you haven't even tried it and still you think that you know the answer), answer this: Are you happy with your Windows system? If the answer is yes, good for you... Now, go back and enjoy it some more and quit telling us about your great experience with a Wintel system...
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Here's the thing. I don't currently even own a PC. I had a great one that I sold and got a Mac thinking that the grass was greener on the other side. Now I'm looking at this machine and I still like it, but found myself realizing that if I want to use Airport Extreme, I need to buy another machine. If I want to ever have support for USB 2.0, I'll have to send tons of emails to Apple begging for it and if I want my scanner to work perfectly, I'll have to try it on another operating system. I bought a PC two days ago (and it will be coming in by courier) because I'm sick of nothing working properly except Apple-branded stuff. On a PC, I can configure ANYTHING to work seamlessly. I can't do that on a Mac.

I work as a PC and Mac tech person and each and everyday we have 4-5 Wintel systems for every kind of problem imaginable or not... While we get 1 Mac problem each month at the most! And no I'm not talking about "I cannot install this scanner" problems and no I'm not talking about Win9x boxes... I'm talking about expensive systems with Asus, MSI, Abit, Intel, QDI, et al mainboards and other exotic parts running anything above Windows 2000 Pro... And this is beyond personal experiences ladies and gentlemen... And others that (have to) work with Wintels they know better but they don't want to admit it simply because they can run Quake 3 at 300fps and they can DivX movies at real time or faster, or simply because they bought anyways those systems $1000 less than a comparable Mac so they expect it to act sometimes as a cheaper system!!!!!
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People like DivX, and they especially like running games in the smoothest possible way. People don'T like being limited, I know I don't. Part of my decision to get a PC is watching my cousin fill out his parents' request to watch certain movies. They want to see recent movies, but don't speak good enough english to understand them. With his PC, he was able to get the DVD, rip the movies out, download polish subtitles found on the Internet, create the movie and then put it on tape for his parents. They were thus able to watch the movie while reading subtitles in their native language. Seeing that, I wondered how the hell I was supposed to do the same thing on the Mac.

No matter how you look at it, that is damn cool. And to top it off, his system has been on for 8 months without ever being restarted. That's stability for you.

Andre
 
Originally posted by cellfish
Well I work at an ISP where there are around 350 computers. After what you said, I asked the admin there how long it took to ghost the exact same configuration to those 350 computers. There are two people doing the job (two admins) and it took then 2 days. How you managed to do 10 computers in 40 hours is beyond me.
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OK then. Now I'm stupid? I told you how it took nearly 40 hours. The PCs were cr*p. I acknowledge that NOT ALL PCs are cr*p, just most. You ask why people automatically assume that you are trolling when you say something Windoze/PC positive? I say: "Why do PC people automatically assume that Mac people are stupid or doing something wrong if they are having PC problems?"


I said you were exaggerating, I never called you a liar.
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If I was relating a personal experience that really happened, and you accuse me of exaggerating the truth, then you are calling me a liar. Plain and simple.

Now, no further posts from me on this. This thread has gotten out of hand, and some of it's my fault.:rolleyes:
 
its gotten a tad out of hand but it takes two to tango, im sure there are no hard feelings between you'all this has been a good convo so far actually

especially the intuition post (which is kinda related to that article i put out)
 
Originally posted by mr. K
I can't believe what you just said. You are in a mac board, are accused of being a troll, and then you shoot out at all the mac users for calling you a troll. You continue on with your blunt argument "pc's are faster and cheaper." And my iMac (stats below) DOES allow me to work faster through sheer intuition and a superior OS. I don't think that windows works well because frankly, it is just a choppy, unpolished OS. Ask anyone who has used both Mac OS X and windows which operating system has a better window based navigation system and the answer will no doubt be MAC OS X. It is smooth, efficient, and stable. I can't say the same for windows. In my limited experience with windows I have been amazed at how much this lack of interface show's. I updated my pc to XP about a month ago, and now find myself using it even less. If you want to convince people that pc's are better then Mac's, this is not the board to do it.
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I honestly feel that Windows XP is more polished than OS X. While OS X is prettier, it lacks so many things that are easily available in Windows. Windows is faster, supports a wider array of hardware and frankly does more. However, the reason I'm replying is because you said the Windows navigation in OS X is better. That is a matter of opinion but let'S face it, it's not:

When you press the green button in Mac OS X, you expect it to maximize the screen but instead it decides on its own what to do. It never takes the whole screen no matter what you do, and it never remembers your settings if you do end up maximizing it manually. I have no complaints about the yellow button. The red button, you would expect to close the program. However, this always depends on what program you're using. If you're in iPhoto, press the red button and you close the program. For Mail and now Address Book, the red button will take away the window but the program will continue to run in the background. If you end up wanting to get rid of the program, you have to right-click and quit. It is possibly the most annoying thing ever and Apple is moving more and more toward it (Address Book only recently starting acting this way)

On Windows, press the X and it's gone. For a FEW program, it'll remain in memory but otherwise it kills the program entirely. Maximizing does exactly that.

Andre
 
Originally posted by Jason
smart arse ;) at least its in good humour this time ;)

Thank you! I did my best!

But seriously now: As I posted many times in the past few months, in some areas Wintels are great and the only way to go... But I think that in a place like www.macosx.com people should post their troubles with Macs, questions, rumors, advices, news, etc and not just Apple VS Wintel stuff... We all know that Macs aren't end all be all computers but are just another piece of the puzzle that computers in general are... If one feels like his Wintels are better than Macs he should not post a question, in the first place, like this: "Why buy an Apple?"... He should give a more insightful title like: "Why personally I would NOT buy a Mac"...

I'm tired of people coming here in www.macosx.com and throw their point of view about Macs while in the first place prefer Wintels... Good for them! And we prefer Macs and that's why we hang around here...

WTF! They expect us to say something like this?: "Hello! Wintels are great! And we are losers for using Macs. We apologize for ruining your internet world. Excuse us. Of course your Wintel rules everything else... Sure! You are the greatest! Congrats!"

cell is it possible your friends were talking work days and not 24hour days?

My question would be: Did they actually tried to Ghost 350 Wintels (same configs?) and they managed to do it in only in 2 days (any explanation of 2 days) and those systems actually worked flawlessly? Without any additional real work to be done? And your ISP was what? Closed for 2 days or something? Hmmmm... Strange! Or simply their answer was very theoritical without doing any real thinking/planning or something...
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All I wanted to add here is that when I bought my Mac, I made an experiment by giving my girlfriend an old P3-533, putting 256 megs ram on it and the cheapest video card on it possible.

Since June of last year, she has never had to reinstall, never had to remove and re-add programs, never had troubles with anything. Aside from needing me to configure her internet connection, she has not needed anything. I figured she would have tons of problems because she never runs my registry cleanup utilities, runs without an anti-virus and never defragment (even though she downloads like crazy). Yet, she's had nothing.

In my case, I reinstalled OS X a few times when trying to install OS 9 over it for Classic to operate (I then found out you can't install a french OS 9 on an english OS X). I've had permission troubles, a scanner whose software wouldn't install because my hard drive wasn't defragmented (seriously), a printer that works and doesn't work depending on the operating system's mood (it stopped working when I needed it most and it ended up being OS X's fault). I've had trouble getting identd to work on OS X and it STILL doesn't work because apparently it can't work through a router (even though it did so fine in Windows). It's basically been one problem after another.

To say the least, I did not end up very satisfied with my experience. The errors the operating system causes, ESPECIALLY with Classic mode, are ridiculous.

Then, frustrated with my OS X experience, I decided I'd give the Mac a second shot and installed OS 9 thinking it might be somewhat better. The end result was my realizing that OS 9 is the worst piece of crap operating system I have ever used and wondering how anybody in the time of OS 9 could ever have claimed that their garbage OS was better than Windows.

Anyways, maybe it's because I come from PC background like someone suggested (and frankly I agree with that). But on the other hand, coming from a PC background, especially one that required me to know the inner workings of the PC, has only more strongly made me realize what's missing in OS X. If you're a first-time user and are faced with OS X and XP, OS X will most likely win out because it's so simple to use and easy to learn whereas XP tries to be easy, but still caters to the techie crowd. However, if you're a techie and are faced with both OS', while OS X will appeal to you because of its BSD core and because the machine is technically more reliable, you will soon realize that the BSD core is simply a decoration with no real compatibility with unix applications and that most of the things that you can do with BSD cannot be done as easily with OS X. A tech would also be quicker to notice what's missing and what should be added.

Lastly, I even tried installing Mandrake Linux 9.1 on my iBook from utter frustration and boredom with OS X. While I had to figure out that you have to first format with OS X's disk utility and convert to free space, then delete a few partitions that aren't supported by UNIX and then finally install, I have never figured out why the iBook never actually RAN linux after restarting from install. The OS was basically installed, but it would not appear. Is Apple forcefully removing my right to run an OS of my choice?

I mean on the PC I can run Windows, Linux, OS2, BSD, BeOS or even DOS without any limitation. On a Mac, I used to be able to run OS 9 or OS X or even Linux, but Apple has confirmed that OS 9 cannot be run in any way. Is Linux blocked out as well? Why should Apple decide what I can and can't run? Are they communists?

Andre
 
Originally posted by hulkaros
My question would be: Did they actually tried to Ghost 350 Wintels (same configs?) and they managed to do it in only in 2 days (any explanation of 2 days) and those systems actually worked flawlessly? Without any additional real work to be done? And your ISP was what? Closed for 2 days or something? Hmmmm... Strange! Or simply their answer was very theoritical without doing any real thinking/planning or something... [/B]
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Can't speak for cellfish, but I can tell you that Ghost is a wonderful product (well at least for this particular application). At the last place I worked we used it extensively and it rocked. Makes doing multiple machine setups a breeze. Not quite as good as doing remote machine installs over the lan once you have things setup, but to get a bunch of systems up and going for the first time it's hard to beat. 350 is not a major stretch when you do the math. That's 175 per person, assuming a 12 hour day (not too bad), that's about 8/hour. If you have 4 machines a piece then 8/hour is easily doable. Disconnecting the drives and rebooting would be the most annoying thing and the process would be tedious as hell, but doable.

If the machine configs that these hd's were going into were the same (or very similar), then there shouldn't be any other config/mucking about necessary other than to change their machine names on the network.

While we're on this subject, is there an equivilent app for the Mac (other than dd)?
 
Originally posted by cellfish
Blah-blah
Andre
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I can understand your frustration of using something that it works different from they way you used to know... You were the master while you had your Wintel and now you are a mere padawan... I can relate to that... :(

If all you wanted was help from Mac users you should ask... Example: You said that you cannot add USB2 to your Mac... Your Mac has a FireWire port, hasn't it? If you have a FireWire you can buy an adapter in which you will be able to use USB2 devices just fine, thank you very much! Search this forum and you will find out what I'm talking about...

Anyways, most of your Mac problems are "artificial" and you will understand that if you are willing to ask around and not just curse your bad Mac luck or something, most of your problems will go away...

Still, if you think that your Mac cannot offer you anything else, sell it to someone else and leave all these problems behind you... Move along! Go on! :cool:
 
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