Why do they hate us?
- Thread starter themacko
- Start date
Javintosh
Meember
I often get snide remarks about the Macs that I have at work. I think it sometimes boild down to the fact that deep down inside Windows users are dissatisfied with their computing experience (especially given the virus frenzy of last year), but they settle for the safe mediocrity of the majority.
The fact that I do not choose to settle for safe mediocrity bother them and thta's the source of the snide remarks. or the "used to use system 6 but it is not as good as win 2k"-type remarks...
The fact that I do not choose to settle for safe mediocrity bother them and thta's the source of the snide remarks. or the "used to use system 6 but it is not as good as win 2k"-type remarks...
ZeroAltitude
Registered
Hi all,
I cannot resist the temptation to say what I think of discussions regarding the pros and cons of Macs and PCs. So first, some background.
I have been an intermediate to expert level user on many different computer platforms. I started programming on a VIC4 (!), messed around with the cute Tandys in the early 80s, learned a bit of assembly for the Commodore-64s that I used for over 3 years, got my first PC and joined every BBS I could, used PC/Intel/Cyrix/AMD for over 8 years, starting with DOS5, then DOS6, Win3.1x, Win95, Win98, Win2k, WinXP, have been administering Linux on Intel and Alpha hardware platforms for over 6 years, and have recently got my first PowerBook Titanium Laptop G4/667 (my favorite laptop ever, after a Compaq and two Gateways), after having done light use of Macs ever since the Apple IIe (Wizardry! Yay!), and the Classics, and even the first PPCs. I sincerely apologize for the resume, but I put it here for emphasis. (I just realized I left out VMS and DEC Unix and Solaris, but now I truly digress.)
Every time I have seen a flame war regarding the relative usefulness of Macs vs. PCs, I have noted one real conclusion should always follow: that which platform you will find most useful, and like best, very simply depends on what you want and need a computer for. Period. End of story.
Now, *both* sides of the debate have ignorant people who say falsities on occasion, and *both* sides have some arrogant or just defensive people who react to these falsities or worse, the bashing, in better or worse ways. And the fact that people on each side do not know the other side in as much detail is really no surprise: after all, most people just gain expertise in one platform, and only know the other one by a kind of anecdotal experience. Most, not all.
So, I recommend to everyone that even better than trying to generalize about the characters, knowledge or experience of the proponents of one platform (because such generalizations seem to always cut both ways), that we try to be clear on ways in which each platform satisfies a *certain need* for a *certain kind of person*. Not which side is 'better' or 'less arrogant' or... whatever.
For example: I know that there are first person shooters for the Mac. But if your interest is in the widest variety of games, with the minimum of waiting for secondary versions, then it appears to me that the PC or a game console is where you would look for satisfaction. If, however, you are a developer in say, Java, and want to create cross-platform Swing apps, then it seems to me that both the Mac and the PC are well-suited, depending on the specifics of the app you want to make. Again, if your interest is in intensive multimedia design, then that is where the G4 shines in many applications, especially those enhanced to support the G4 extensions. If you are interested in *professional* music production, and have money, then again arguably the best music production software is Mac based (and similar PC configurations are, at the very best, equal to the Mac on this score). If you are interested in *amateur* music production and don't have money, then the PC is *arguably* better (much more freeware, like buzz (www.buzzmachines.com), audiomulch (www.audiomulch.com), crusher (www.crusher-x.de), and many trackers, and others -- audiomulch might not always be free, note).
The newest Macs now price quite competetively with PCs (do it yourself: go to Dell and price out similarly configured systems and compare with their comparable Mac versions) when you buy from the manufacturers. So at that level, the oldest reason not to buy a Mac becomes less and less relevant. However, PCs, since they do depreciate so fast, can be built from parts for much cheaper than a Mac.
The Mac, I would say, is still easier to configure out of the box, for home networking, for devices.
Etc. Etc. Etc.
Now, *these* kinds of observations, and factual debates about claims such as these, can actually *help* consumers decide what kind of machine to purchase. And if I am really right, then the result would be, I reckon, that PC users and Mac users alike could learn from these observations and figure out what the *best machine for them* would be. Net effect: the market share would be more equal, for I also reckon that people today would actually find themselves about equally divided, or perhaps skewed slightly one way or the other, as to what machines is *really best *for them**. Ignorance and flame wars and relgion are not in the best computing interests of the masses (which is not to say that we shouldn't have cameraderie and community -- you don't need religion for that!).
Sorry for the long post. Hope someone finds it interesting.
-ZeroAltitude
I cannot resist the temptation to say what I think of discussions regarding the pros and cons of Macs and PCs. So first, some background.
I have been an intermediate to expert level user on many different computer platforms. I started programming on a VIC4 (!), messed around with the cute Tandys in the early 80s, learned a bit of assembly for the Commodore-64s that I used for over 3 years, got my first PC and joined every BBS I could, used PC/Intel/Cyrix/AMD for over 8 years, starting with DOS5, then DOS6, Win3.1x, Win95, Win98, Win2k, WinXP, have been administering Linux on Intel and Alpha hardware platforms for over 6 years, and have recently got my first PowerBook Titanium Laptop G4/667 (my favorite laptop ever, after a Compaq and two Gateways), after having done light use of Macs ever since the Apple IIe (Wizardry! Yay!), and the Classics, and even the first PPCs. I sincerely apologize for the resume, but I put it here for emphasis. (I just realized I left out VMS and DEC Unix and Solaris, but now I truly digress.)
Every time I have seen a flame war regarding the relative usefulness of Macs vs. PCs, I have noted one real conclusion should always follow: that which platform you will find most useful, and like best, very simply depends on what you want and need a computer for. Period. End of story.
Now, *both* sides of the debate have ignorant people who say falsities on occasion, and *both* sides have some arrogant or just defensive people who react to these falsities or worse, the bashing, in better or worse ways. And the fact that people on each side do not know the other side in as much detail is really no surprise: after all, most people just gain expertise in one platform, and only know the other one by a kind of anecdotal experience. Most, not all.
So, I recommend to everyone that even better than trying to generalize about the characters, knowledge or experience of the proponents of one platform (because such generalizations seem to always cut both ways), that we try to be clear on ways in which each platform satisfies a *certain need* for a *certain kind of person*. Not which side is 'better' or 'less arrogant' or... whatever.
For example: I know that there are first person shooters for the Mac. But if your interest is in the widest variety of games, with the minimum of waiting for secondary versions, then it appears to me that the PC or a game console is where you would look for satisfaction. If, however, you are a developer in say, Java, and want to create cross-platform Swing apps, then it seems to me that both the Mac and the PC are well-suited, depending on the specifics of the app you want to make. Again, if your interest is in intensive multimedia design, then that is where the G4 shines in many applications, especially those enhanced to support the G4 extensions. If you are interested in *professional* music production, and have money, then again arguably the best music production software is Mac based (and similar PC configurations are, at the very best, equal to the Mac on this score). If you are interested in *amateur* music production and don't have money, then the PC is *arguably* better (much more freeware, like buzz (www.buzzmachines.com), audiomulch (www.audiomulch.com), crusher (www.crusher-x.de), and many trackers, and others -- audiomulch might not always be free, note).
The newest Macs now price quite competetively with PCs (do it yourself: go to Dell and price out similarly configured systems and compare with their comparable Mac versions) when you buy from the manufacturers. So at that level, the oldest reason not to buy a Mac becomes less and less relevant. However, PCs, since they do depreciate so fast, can be built from parts for much cheaper than a Mac.
The Mac, I would say, is still easier to configure out of the box, for home networking, for devices.
Etc. Etc. Etc.
Now, *these* kinds of observations, and factual debates about claims such as these, can actually *help* consumers decide what kind of machine to purchase. And if I am really right, then the result would be, I reckon, that PC users and Mac users alike could learn from these observations and figure out what the *best machine for them* would be. Net effect: the market share would be more equal, for I also reckon that people today would actually find themselves about equally divided, or perhaps skewed slightly one way or the other, as to what machines is *really best *for them**. Ignorance and flame wars and relgion are not in the best computing interests of the masses (which is not to say that we shouldn't have cameraderie and community -- you don't need religion for that!).
Sorry for the long post. Hope someone finds it interesting.
-ZeroAltitude
zerorex
Registered
Basicly, I have found that PC users fall in to one of three catigorys. They either detest the idea of the mac, they think "ya its good for graphics, but thats it..." or the are open minded and would concider the mac if they could build it for 700 bucks.
The first crew is no the most common, but they are very prevelant. From my time in tech support I can say that this is mostly due to ignorance. Alot of the people I know who hate the mac started hating it because the people who the work with have hated it longer than them. In tech center training, the mac is usually an after thought. "Ok class, we have spent 4 days figureing out how to trouble shoot connections for every Microsoft os out there, now here is a 30 second over view of how to deal with thoses OTHER PEOPLE who use the 'mac-n-crap' <class snikers>". In technical circles mac hatred is almost tought. Of coures our day comes when the mac users actually calls in... the mac hater almost always freeks out and starts screeming "wheres the mac guy wheres the mac guy". I alwasy found it odd how few mac users even called in. I know this is partly due to the fact that there are less of us, but it was also becuase we just dont have as many problems. Most of this group hate the mac because a: they dont know anyting about it, and what they are forced to learn seems so alien, b: they concider the mac to be ment for "people who dont know how to use a computer", and c: their peers hate them.
The next group, the "its only good for graphics" guys are the ones I have found to be most common. I dont know how manytimes ive hurd that statment. Its usually followed by "but it cant do anything that requires reall power". If you aregure this with proof of macs doing database work, macs doing web services, etc, you will get the "ya, but there are no applications for it". You follow this with multiple choices of office applicaitons, web applications, audio applicaitons, graphic applicaitons, etc, and you get down to the real heart of the matter... "I cant play as many games on it". This is the only argument you cant fully contend with. Unfortunatly, almost every pc user will have at least one "game of the week" they love to play that is not on the mac. But you can at least say that its not "only good for graphics"... its good for everything, there are just fewer games...
The last group, the open minded ones, are unfortunatly rare. These people are usually fairly intellegent. They build their pc's because they are tired of gettign stuck with winmodems and integrated pc crap that the next revison of the os will no longer fully support. Also the see that building allows them to do things at a cheeper price. They wont argue that a mac has its elegance and its features, but they will argue that its price point is out of their league. They dont care that you dont need to upgrade very often... damit, they LIKE to upgrade
.. I have knotesed that with the advent of os x, i have more and more of this group shwoing more and more interest in apple.
anyway... thats my two cents
The first crew is no the most common, but they are very prevelant. From my time in tech support I can say that this is mostly due to ignorance. Alot of the people I know who hate the mac started hating it because the people who the work with have hated it longer than them. In tech center training, the mac is usually an after thought. "Ok class, we have spent 4 days figureing out how to trouble shoot connections for every Microsoft os out there, now here is a 30 second over view of how to deal with thoses OTHER PEOPLE who use the 'mac-n-crap' <class snikers>". In technical circles mac hatred is almost tought. Of coures our day comes when the mac users actually calls in... the mac hater almost always freeks out and starts screeming "wheres the mac guy wheres the mac guy". I alwasy found it odd how few mac users even called in. I know this is partly due to the fact that there are less of us, but it was also becuase we just dont have as many problems. Most of this group hate the mac because a: they dont know anyting about it, and what they are forced to learn seems so alien, b: they concider the mac to be ment for "people who dont know how to use a computer", and c: their peers hate them.
The next group, the "its only good for graphics" guys are the ones I have found to be most common. I dont know how manytimes ive hurd that statment. Its usually followed by "but it cant do anything that requires reall power". If you aregure this with proof of macs doing database work, macs doing web services, etc, you will get the "ya, but there are no applications for it". You follow this with multiple choices of office applicaitons, web applications, audio applicaitons, graphic applicaitons, etc, and you get down to the real heart of the matter... "I cant play as many games on it". This is the only argument you cant fully contend with. Unfortunatly, almost every pc user will have at least one "game of the week" they love to play that is not on the mac. But you can at least say that its not "only good for graphics"... its good for everything, there are just fewer games...
The last group, the open minded ones, are unfortunatly rare. These people are usually fairly intellegent. They build their pc's because they are tired of gettign stuck with winmodems and integrated pc crap that the next revison of the os will no longer fully support. Also the see that building allows them to do things at a cheeper price. They wont argue that a mac has its elegance and its features, but they will argue that its price point is out of their league. They dont care that you dont need to upgrade very often... damit, they LIKE to upgrade
.. I have knotesed that with the advent of os x, i have more and more of this group shwoing more and more interest in apple.anyway... thats my two cents
scott
softer than ever!
Couldn't agree more. I remember years ago trying to set people up with internet accounts on sys 7.x machines. I would call the ISP and ask for the DNS:
ISP: You don't our DNS #s
ME: Yes I do
ISP: No win95 doesn't need them
ME: I'm on a mac
ISP: Oh, I can't help you then. Why are you on a mac? Photoshop comes for pc ya know. We could sell you a copy.
ME: I don;t want your help. I want your DNS.
ISP: Ok, here ya go, but I still don;t think you need them.
Whatever.
ISP: You don't our DNS #s
ME: Yes I do
ISP: No win95 doesn't need them
ME: I'm on a mac
ISP: Oh, I can't help you then. Why are you on a mac? Photoshop comes for pc ya know. We could sell you a copy.
ME: I don;t want your help. I want your DNS.
ISP: Ok, here ya go, but I still don;t think you need them.
Whatever.
edX
mac shaman
as the guy on the other end of the phone, this is inevitably the guy who answers my calls 90% of the time unless the company is cool enough to offer a touch tone option for mac support. but it seems like about 40% of the time the mac guy isn't there. i have had them offer me complete bs and lie about how their company is "working on it" or just plain blow me off cause they don't know. often they repeat themselves and hang up on me when it is evident i know more than they do. i have gotten to the point where if the person who answers my call isn't able to ask me questions that shows they know how a mac works, i ask for a supervisor, who usually is a mac guy or at least knows all about them and gets the problem solved most of the time. i am sure i have put black marks on several pc tech support people's evaluations. (at least i hope so)
yet another reason we should spend our money with those companies that support our platform faithfully and cast our economic votes against those who treat us as an afterthought.
karavite
Registered
You know what, put aside usability, performance, applications... it's all secondary. What it really comes down to is taste and class. PCs are quite simply the bland white bread suburban computers made for the media sucking automatons that make up the majority of the United States.
PC users hate us because the Mac only reinforces the cultural, artistic and intellectual void that divides us in so many other ways. PCs are to computers as:
Chrysler is to cars
Velveeta is to cheese
Disneyland is to a vacation
Andrew Lloyd Weber is to "Theater"
Boones Farm is to wine
Budweiser is to beer
Best Buy is to customer service
Oakley is to fashionable eyewear
Michigan State is to education... (just kidding you Moo U types)
Hey, speaking of Canadians, I used to live in the only continental US city "North of Canada" (Detroit) and I had no issues with Canadians at all - they are great! Speaking of which, does anyone know if the Tunnel BBQ in Windsor is still around? And if it is, please tell me they still make fantastic ribs!
PC users hate us because the Mac only reinforces the cultural, artistic and intellectual void that divides us in so many other ways. PCs are to computers as:
Chrysler is to cars
Velveeta is to cheese
Disneyland is to a vacation
Andrew Lloyd Weber is to "Theater"
Boones Farm is to wine
Budweiser is to beer
Best Buy is to customer service
Oakley is to fashionable eyewear
Michigan State is to education... (just kidding you Moo U types)
Hey, speaking of Canadians, I used to live in the only continental US city "North of Canada" (Detroit) and I had no issues with Canadians at all - they are great! Speaking of which, does anyone know if the Tunnel BBQ in Windsor is still around? And if it is, please tell me they still make fantastic ribs!
tagliatelle
_____________________
They are fans!