WTF is up with fink?

D

Da'iMacDaddy

Unix Newb.
OK Fink is brand new to me ... and if you've read any of my other posts you would know this whole unix thing is new to me to but I'm trying. I've installed some programs from fink (I think) now how do I use them? where are they stored? and what happens if I messed up and didn't install some part that I needed to run the program. I think I downloaded xchat and xscourch but I'm not sure after hitting enter from the screen where you select the packages a list popped up saying I needed some stuff for it to work but i couldn't select them to download. Oh well i geuss I'm just gonna go read over the readme and help files.
 
Daddy - I feel your pain and I have been there. Many macosx people and posts helped me a lot (jcpowers in particular) to kind of know what I am doing.

I have a Word file I wrote up a few months ago that describes to non *nix geeks how to get X on OSX up and running in less than 1.5 hours (depending on your type of network connection) with most of that time waiting for installs. 2 people tried it and it worked for them. I think everything is still up to date (links and versions of Fink and XDarwin), so give it a shot.

You can download it at:

http://www-personal.si.umich.edu/~karavite/Installing XWindows on OSX.doc

Let me know when you have it - I don't have much space on this account. If you don't have Office X, I can send you a pdf, but it is helpful to be able to copy/paste from the document.
 
Da'iMacDaddy,

You sound very confused...indeed!

By now, everybody knows you are a unix newbie. But, you are not the only one. And when it comes to Fink, my advice is the following:

The key to success with fink is through your own sweat (which means studying to understand what's going on).

Failing to do this, I would recommend gardening as a past-time. Although even there, one needs time to understand the ways of nature.) :)

Do your homework, have patience and study carefully all the information available at the following web pages:

Essential reading

The Fink FAQ's:
http://fink.sourceforge.net/faq/index.php

Fink User's Guide:
http://fink.sourceforge.net/doc/users-guide/index.php

Fink Usage:
http://fink.sourceforge.net/doc/bundled/usage.php

Fink-beginners mailing list archive:
http://www.mail-archive.com/fink-beginners@lists.sourceforge.net/

Fink-users mailing list archive:
http://www.mail-archive.com/fink-users@lists.sourceforge.net/


And then, after having done your homework, if you still need help, please post your problem here, and we will gladly help you as best we can to solve it.

BTW, I have nearly finished writing a "Fink Beginners Guide", I will announce it in this forum when it's ready for download.

Good luck.


Cheers...
 
soa,

Though I agree with you completely that, whether in nature or fink, one has to learn their own lessons and that no truly worthwhile knowledge comes for free :), I really think many basic concepts of running X on X are far too muddled under unnecessary layers of complexity. NOBODY presents them clearly.

Gee, now that I think of it, the same applies not just to gardening, but to understanding women <pc>or men, depending on your gender/preference</pc>.

Actually, I think I have a better analogy. I just spent a week building a model sailboat with really lousy and confusing instructions. I spent far too much time simply trying to interpret the poorly written instructions than in actually building the boat.

Any way, it is nice to see that someone like you is working on this. As someone who paid his X dues (long time Mac user obsessed with running X on OS X and learning about the whole new world available through our new OS...) here are just a few things I think could be improved for new users, though I am not saying I have the best suggestions on how to do that.

1. Simply explain the difference between binaries and source code - binaries are like buying a bicycle that is all put together while source code requires assembly.

2. Clearly explain Xwindows and window managers without all the client - server terminolgy - at least at first. How about some diagrams? A picture is worth 1000 words (or 10,000 links on sourceforge).

3. Clearly explain all the things needed to run X on OSX and what each one does.
A. Fink to go get and install available software.
B. XDarwin to actually run the installed X environment.
C. Your .cshrc file to tell XDarwin where your Xwindows stuff is.
D. Your .xinitrc file to tell XDarwin what window manager to use.

4. The dselect UI is not good. NOT because it is a terminal app - I don't believe terminal apps are a bad thing at all - I just think it can be very confusing to non *nix users. P.S. I don't think the graphic fink app is much better.

Any way, I just think it is more productive to get people up and running without all the pain and frustration - they can still learn something and the basic concepts involved are really not too complicated. I just don't accept the whole "you have to pay your dues thing" when so much of it is due to plain old confusing language and terminology. So much of getting X to run on a Mac is like asking someone to guess a secret handshake. If people want it to be an elitists club, than we are right on track, but if the idea is to get more users (and thus more apps and support from developers), improvements need to be made. I'm looking forward to your Fink beginners guide.

P.S. I work in usability and a really good test of anything is to run it by at least one new user. May I suggest you do this with your guide and then act on any feedback from these users - what was clear and what was not clear... Thanks!
 
karavite,

Thanks for your helpful input. It is very positive, and reassures me in my effort at making a "Fink Beginners Guide". Most of the points you raised I have already included them, but I thank you a lot for your feedback.

Let me explain to you a little bit.

Before MacOS X Beta came out, I knew nothing about Unix. I was a beginner myself and can understand the mentality very well.

It took me one year to understand the subject a little bit and get where I am now. (I guess if I would have chosen to became a surgeon, even with well written books about the subject, it would have taken me even longer to achieve that)

That's why I put my efforts in making a "Fink Beginners Guide". Exactly because it is not so easy to understand.

You see, I figured this is open source, so what can I contribute... if the available information about Fink seems not clear or seems difficult for a beginner?

"Hey Sao, write a Fink Beginners Guide". That floated in my mind since the first time I became acquainted with Fink.

What I learned is that it's not an easy subject, and that if you have no prior unix knowledge, it's even worse. The truth is, even my guide, written with beginners in mind, will still require a great effort to gain understanding, as it is not an easy process.

You need to study and understand the "language" (apt-get, binary package, source installation, etc., etc.) before you can even begin to make your way through the process.

Of course, I will do my part and try to make the guide as clear as possible.

Thanks again.


Cheers...
 
Soa,

You are right on - I think there are many ways non-programmers can contribute to open source - like in improving usability. Powerful and stable software does not need to be difficult to use, but many programmers simply know too much to explain it to new users.

I hope we didn't lose Da'iMacDaddy! I learned a ton from getting my own X environment to work and could not have done it without this forum and all the helpful people, but as new members ask questions that have been answered many times before (and in many, many threads all over the place), it is hard to get a complete response. Keep up the good work!
 
Well I do have orobosx Running on my comp. it's just that i find that compiling the software by hand is easier than learning to use fink ... theres probably a lot more too it than i see though so i want to give fink a shot. i still havent figured out to get xchat installed. i figured out how to install software but i seem to be missing something for xchat to work and i can't figure out what it is
 
Da'iMacDaddy,

Would you like some help on learning how to use Fink, and installing Xfree86 and XDarwin?

It will be a long road, but I can slowly guide you when you want.

Or if it is too much, maybe you could try with FinkCommander. It works very well and is quite simple to use. You can download it from here:

http://finkcommander.sourceforge.net/

Let me know.


Cheers...
 
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